Saving and risking black lives

Rudy Giuliani provoked the wrath of the grievance industry by pointing out some facts. One is that the number of innocent young blacks killed by white police officers is vanishingly small compared to number of young blacks killed by young blacks. He also pointed out that police have challenges in inner cities communities because of the violence and then made the point that enrages the pinheads. He says that his policies saved lots of black lives. He is right, however, so the response is not to argue but rather to rage against him.

Blacks are much more likely to be murdered (and be murders) than are whites. Any reduction in deadly violence disproportionately benefits blacks. If policing policies in New York prevent a dozen murders each year (they do and more) that means that they have saved more black lives all the antics of Jackson, Sharpton and the other ambulance following weirdos.

Everybody is girding for rioting in Ferguson. Those who don't respect the rule of law are up to no good. Let's see if those guys with the signs really think black lives have value.

So people like Rudy Giuliani are in the business of saving black lives, while the protestors are in the business of risking them.

Posted by Christine & John at November 24, 2014 5:42 PM
Comments
Comment #386032

The sociology professor that Giuliani debated with, resulting in him calling Giuliani a white supremacist after he could not answer Giuliani’s questions. Giuliani said police where strategically placed in high crime areas. He said it wouldn’t make sense to put police in an area where there was no crime. But the professor claimed there should be no police in black areas. Giuliani’s claim was that he saved black lives by placing police in the high crime areas. This professor is an idiot and I guarantee he doesn’t live in black ghettos.

Posted by: Sam Jones at November 24, 2014 10:30 PM
Comment #386033

We have to respect the Grand Jury. It was a profile in courage for them not to indict knowing the pressure and emotion created by the mobs, Holder and even Obama.

Posted by: C&J at November 24, 2014 10:38 PM
Comment #386035

Once again our, uniter and not divider, president just had to get his face on the TV tonight. Tell me if you can; has there ever been another US president who has involved himself in local police actions? It is disgusting; Obama sent WH representatives to Fergusson right after the shooting; involving himself personally in this case. He don’t give a crap about this guy that was shot. His speech tonight put him right in the middle of the road. He is sympathetic with the family; but understands the anger of blacks in the community. What kind of comment was that? He was wrong on his initial statement just as he was wrong when he got involved in the shooting of Trayvon Martin in Florida. He is a racist and his goal is no different that Sharpton or Jackson; to stir up race problems.

It embarrasses me to have this man as the president of the US.

Posted by: Sam Jones at November 24, 2014 10:43 PM
Comment #386036

So move, Sam, and save yourself all the anguish of having to deal with it. Bye bye…..

Posted by: jane doe at November 24, 2014 10:46 PM
Comment #386037

Don’t mind jane doe, she has a little mind and has probably been off her meds. They only let her out of the home every once in a while.

Posted by: George at November 24, 2014 10:51 PM
Comment #386039

Right now I am watching the looters rob a liquor store. They don’t seem very angry, in fact there is a lot of joy in the “alternative shoppers” as they run out with arms full of booze. This will help cripple that community for the next couple years. And they wonder why the cops are a little hesitant to go into those places.

Posted by: C&J at November 24, 2014 10:59 PM
Comment #386040

I’m sitting here watching these blacks riot in Fergusson; it has nothing to do with injustice. They are looting liquor stores, breaking into stores; and they’re doing it all in their own neighborhood.

Posted by: Sam Jones at November 24, 2014 11:01 PM
Comment #386041

Now their protesting in other cites, with pre-made signs. You reckon they knew this was going to happen?

Posted by: Sam Jones at November 24, 2014 11:06 PM
Comment #386043

Just poste by John Hinderakeron Powerline.com:

President Obama weighs in–another remarkable event. His comments seem to assume that the grand jury’s decision was wrong. He urges those who are disappointed not to protest violently, and–even-handedly!–tells police officers not to respond violently to protests. He goes on to say that Ferguson illustrates nationwide problems of relations between police and communities, and so on. It all has to do with the need for more progress in race relations.

Also “criminal justice reform.” But what reform, exactly, is that? Is there something wrong with Missouri’s law of self-defense? With its grand jury procedures? If so, what? As usual, Obama just spews BS that has little significance, apart from the political.

Completely absent is any acknowledgement that, regardless of race, attacking a police officer for no reason is a horribly stupid act that rarely will end well.

Posted by: Sam Jones at November 24, 2014 11:18 PM
Comment #386044

I do think that we need to reform police procedure, however. The evidence show that Michael Brown reacted aggressively and stupidly. 18 year old men often act stupidly and I have little doubt that the officer felt threatened.

BUT - the officer probably should not have approached those two young men w/o backup. He had to know that his “equalizer” was his gun. According to the reports, backup arrived a very short time after the shooting. Waiting a little longer could have saved Michael Brown’s life. There was no real urgency. After all, stealing a handful of cigars should not carry the death penalty.

Posted by: C&J at November 24, 2014 11:29 PM
Comment #386045

In Cleveland, Ohio a 12 year old black kid was shot and killed by police this past weekend. His crime was he STUPIDLY was waving a toy BB gun around a park that had the toy markings removed. When police told him to raise his hands he went for the gun tucked in his pant waist band and that is when police shot him they did not know it was a toy.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at November 24, 2014 11:48 PM
Comment #386046

To echo a tweet, anytime expiating someone for murder uses the phrase “the final ten shots,” then something is really messed up.

And yes, everyone knew this would happen. The justice system failed very badly tonight. Interesting statistic from HuffPo: in 2010 there were 162,000 prosecutions, and only 11 failures to indict.

The prosecutor McCullough should have recused himself. There are a lot of reasons which most of us already know, but he did not, and he did everything he could to shape the proceedings so there would be no indictment, so the announcement tonight of the failure to indict was a foregone conclusion.

The press conference was bizarre. McCullough had a lot to say about unreliable witnesses, but very little to say about reliable ones, or any basic facts about the physical evidence, such as how far away the cop was from the victim when he blew him away.

A bad night for justice, and a bad night America.

By the way, C&J, I don’t know about policies for police in Ferguson, but where I live, a policeman is not supposed to roll his window all the way down to talk with someone. He should have just cracked the window open enough to make himself heard. I have personally experienced this, and totally understood where the cop was coming from.

And there was no discussion about why the cop pursued the victim in the first place. Why did he get out of his car?

Posted by: phx8 at November 24, 2014 11:51 PM
Comment #386048

phx8

“The justice system failed very badly tonight.”

Why is that, because they didn’t return the decision you wanted ?

Posted by: dbs at November 25, 2014 5:29 AM
Comment #386049

phx8


“And there was no discussion about why the cop pursued the victim in the first place. Why did he get out of his car?”

Initially to talk to him, and then because he was attacked by the perpetrator. You can’t assault a police officer and expect to just walk away.

Posted by: dbs at November 25, 2014 5:35 AM
Comment #386050

We believe in the rule of law, as President Obama said. Justice was served, since the process went through the rule of law.

It looks like a regrettable incident where both people involved made errors. Wilson could have been more circumspect. Brown should not have reacted violently and aggressively. But in the end the Grand Jury decided that the evidence did not indicate that a crime had been committed.

Anger and passion are poor substitutes for reason and justice. That is why we have the rule of law.

Posted by: C&J at November 25, 2014 7:19 AM
Comment #386055

Officer Wilson’s side of those events:

And there was no discussion about why the cop pursued the victim in the first place.

I see them walking down the middle of the street. And first thing that struck me was they’re walking in the middle of the street. I had already seen a couple cars trying to pass, but they couldn’t have traffic normal because they were in the middle, so one had to stop to let the car go around and then another car would come


Why did he get out of his car?

Wilson said that’s when he noticed that the man whom he later learned was Brown had cigarillos in his hand, and Johnson was wearing a black shirt. He said “that’s when it clicked … [that] these are the two men from the stealing.”

Wilson told the grand jury that Brown and Johnson kept walking in the middle of the street. That’s when, he said, he called for backup. He said he reversed his car and backed up past the two men to cut them off. He said he opened the door and asked Brown to come to him. Brown, he said, swore at him and slammed the door shut. Wilson said he told Brown to step back, opened the door, cursed at the 18-year-old and used his door to push Brown back. That’s when, Wilson says, Brown first hit him.

Posted by: George in SC at November 25, 2014 8:54 AM
Comment #386062

As many people have already noticed, the prosecutor McCullough acted like a defense attorney for the policeman, rather than an advocate for the victim. In this Grand Jury, there was essentially no prosecution, just a defense attorney presenting a case for the cop.

That was about as bad a miscarriage of justice as we are likely to see. Like I said, in 2010 there were 162,000 grand juries, and only 11 failures to indict. This was really, really bad.

Posted by: phx8 at November 25, 2014 9:27 AM
Comment #386067
In Cleveland, Ohio a 12 year old black kid was shot and killed by police this past weekend. His crime was he STUPIDLY was waving a toy BB gun around a park that had the toy markings removed. When police told him to raise his hands he went for the gun tucked in his pant waist band and that is when police shot him they did not know it was a toy.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at November 24, 2014 11:48 PM

They showed the gun on the news last night; it looked just like a 45 auto. No markings to show it was a toy or a BB gun. This just cannot happen in today’s world. I have been pulled over by police and I have a conceal carry; I do exactly what I was trained to do and keep my hands in plain view while telling the cop I am armed. The stupid thing to do is to make a sudden move for your waist band.

Brown was not a child, just as Travon Martin was not a child. He was the size of a pro football player and he became a threat when he attacked the cop. Missouri law was on the side of the cop. If he felt his life was threatened, he had the right to protect himself. If the left don’t like the law, then they should change it. A grand jury did not find enough evidence to bring the cop to trial. The exact same thing happened in Sanford, FL. There was not enough evidence to bring Zimmerman to trial for killing Travon Martin; but the racist Obama and Holder injected themselves into the local law enforcement and forced the case to go to trial. Zimmerman was found innocent. Racist troublemakers in Fergusson were saying this should have gone to trial. That the cop should have been tried for murder. The calls for the AG to recuse himself are ridiculous; he is the AG and it was his job to do exactly what he did. He could have looked at the evidence and declared there was not grounds for a trial; but he chose to take it to the GJ. Result…no evidence for a trial. Make no mistake; this is not about a drugged up violent black kid, raised in an atmosphere of the police are evil. It is about the continued push by the left of racism, it’s about Sharpton, Obama, Jackson, and Holder rekindling the days of Selma, AL, and it’s about blacks who want to riot and steal. But they robbed, stole, and burned their own neighborhood. It would be interesting to see what would happen to them if it was a white neighborhood? In the past week Obama has spent all of his political power and credibility telling us that Hispanic’s enemy is the American people; yet when was the last time Hispanics rioted and burned their own neighborhoods?

Posted by: Sam Jones at November 25, 2014 9:34 AM
Comment #386068

I have one more thought; there were over 100 documented shots fired in Ferguson last night. Some were even arrested with guns in the possession. Where is the left’s continued calls for gun control. I will be shocked to hear anyone from the left call for more gun control as a result of threats to the police last night.

The Governor of MS called up the national guard; but where were they when the town burned? Was there pressure by Obama or Holder to tell the MS Governor to stand down the national guard?

Posted by: Sam Jones at November 25, 2014 9:42 AM
Comment #386070

Holder has fanned the flamed of racism in Ferguson by making a statement the feds investigation is still ongoing. Whatever you do Mr. Holder, don’t let the flames die down.

Posted by: George at November 25, 2014 9:50 AM
Comment #386071

phx8

Many people notice what they want. I watched the press conference. He explained the rationale and all the evidence. He knew many in the audience had made up their minds w/o evidence and would need an education.

The Grande Jury decided based on the evidence not to indict. Naturally, when explaining that decision and that evidence, a the truth might sound like it was in favor of the cop, because it was.

We have to trust the process.

As you know, my son was attacked randomly by a group of black thugs, who beat him unconscious, kicked him in the face and called him a cracker. They didn’t know he; they didn’t rob him or even speak to him before they attacked. Was it a hate crime? I don’t know but it was unprovoked and my son was acting more innocently than Brown.

We went through the process and in the end the perps got away with it. They had to pay restitution, which was not much since we had insurance that took care of my son’s injuries. I watched the proceedings. There was one big black kid (I suppose a “teenager) who set in the back and laughed when they talked about my son’s injuries. I am morally certain that he was guilty. But the legal process could not prove it. He got off. Should I have gone to his house and started a fire, or maybe robbed the convenience store in his neighborhood?

The Brown family has acted honorably and I understand their grief. Guys like Sharpton and Holder are dishonored by their statements and actions.

Posted by: C&J at November 25, 2014 9:51 AM
Comment #386072

That’s a no win situation phx8 but I agree it was handled poorly. I think McCulloch would have been best served by recusing himself since people thought he was tainted and pro police but I give him credit at least for not passing the buck.

The problem is the same for Mr. McCulloch, a Grand Jury or another Prosecutor; they knew from the beginning there was never going to be a conviction. They had the physical evidence showing that Mr. Brown commited a felony prior to any shots being fired way back in August.

Posted by: George in SC at November 25, 2014 9:55 AM
Comment #386076

Until seventeen-year-olds vote, drink alcohol and fight in our wars they shouldn’t be considered adults. Trayvon Martin was a child. Michael Brown was an adult.

The exact same thing happened in Sanford, FL.

To the contrary, there was more than enough evidence that Zimmerman did not fear for his life making his claim of self-defense invalid. However, our justice system is designed to be leaky; we acquit 10 guilty men in order to ensure we don’t falsely convict a single innocent one.

The case of Darren Wilson is very different because the witness testimony claiming that Michael Brown was shot in the back with his hands up was clearly contradicted by the autopsy which revealed that the fatal shot hit brown at the top of his head, which he had lowered. It’s not hard to conclude that Brown’s bow would be interpreted as threatening to charge at Wilson. Today, the justice system worked. We don’t indict people based off of rumor and speculation. We indict people based off of facts and evidence.

Regarding gun control: Anyone caught with a firearm without a proper license ought to be prosecuted.

Posted by: Warren Porter at November 25, 2014 10:04 AM
Comment #386078
there was more than enough evidence

Let me backtrack. There was evidence, but obviously not more than enough. Otherwise, Zimmerman would have been convicted.

Posted by: Warren Porter at November 25, 2014 10:12 AM
Comment #386086

George in SC,
As soon as McCullough was named prosecutor, there was a petition with over 40,000 signatures asking for him to be recused. In 24 years, he never once indicted a cop. His father was killed by a black man, and his mother worked for the police.

I am not in the legal business, but I don’t think taking a handful of cigars counts as a felony.

C&J,
Everyone knows eyewitnesses can be unreliable. In addition, a case like this one was bound to attract fabricators. There was no reason for McCullough to even bring those people up at the press conference. I hope he did not bring them into the Grand Jury. A trial would never call those kind of witnesses to the stand, knowing their testimony was obviously false. Physical evidence is best, and the combination of the bullet wounds, the reliable witnesses, the video of one witness yelling at the cop that the victim had his hands up, and the audio of the gunshots should have been enough to warrant a PUBLIC trial. Whether that would have resulted in any kind of conviction, we will never know.

I knew about what happened to your son, and I am sorry to hear it. You do a nice job of maintaining a reasonable attitude considering the terrible experience in your family’s past.

Posted by: phx8 at November 25, 2014 11:34 AM
Comment #386089

The “handful of cigars” gave Officer Wilson the reason to stop, detain and question Mr. Brown given he and his friend matched the radio dispatch description.

The bruises to the cheeks and back of the neck, Mr. Brown’s DNA and blood found inside the car and on Officer Wilson’s service revolver, and several eye witness accounts showed that Mr. Brown assaulted a police officer. If he does that to you or me it’s probably just a misdemeanor but because Officer Wilson is a law enforcement officer (or corrections, emergency, highway worker in a construction zone or work zone, utility worker, cable worker, or probation and parole officer) he has now suspected of committing a felony under Missouri while at the scene of the car. Because Mr. Brown’s DNA and blood was found several feet away from the vehicle scene he is now a fleeing felon, and because of the marks on Officer Wilson’s face he is now a violent, fleeing felon and has now surrendered his 4th Amendment rights even under Garner.

Certainly the Prosecutor could have done a better job and certainly Officer Wilson could have made some different choices (like waiting for backup before approaching a 6’4”, 300lb suspect). Lots of bad choices here and combined they create a tragedy, but Mr. Brown made the big ones. Don’t steal cigars, don’t walk in the middle of the street blocking traffic after you do it, don’t hit a copy when he calls you it, don’t run after hitting said cop, and don’t come towards a cop that’s already shot you several times. These facts were all known within a few weeks (DNA analysis takes a few days) of processing the scene.

Posted by: George in SC at November 25, 2014 12:39 PM
Comment #386090

phx8

I have studied and written about eyewitnesses and memory. They are indeed unreliable. That is why you have to connect it with physical evidence. There is no doubt that Brown attacked Wilson in the car, since Brown left blood and DNA there.

You heard the witnesses that immediately went to the media. There were many more who wanted to avoid that spectacle and maybe were afraid of the reaction of the community.

re my son - he does a better job. When he saw one of the guys who almost certainly has attacked him with his mother, he told me that THEIR family had suffered too. How could I be more vengeful than he was. He was right but that is not an easy attitude to take. I think it affected him, however, because soon after he started to lift weights and joined the National Guard.

Posted by: C&J at November 25, 2014 12:43 PM
Comment #386093
Let me backtrack. There was evidence, but obviously not more than enough. Otherwise, Zimmerman would have been convicted.

Posted by: Warren Porter at November 25, 2014 10:12 AM

Warren, thank you for the correction. The point I was making was Obama and Holder’s involvement in the case. It was not their place to take a local police matter and make a national case out of it; and that is exactly what they did. The local AG and the police DID NOT press charges against Zimmerman, because they believed they did not have a case to win. After Obama and Holder got involved, a different AG pressed charges and the trial found Zimmerman innocent.

The calls for McCullough to recuse himself is exactly what was called for in Sanford. Had the Sanford AG been allowed to do his job, the outcome would have been exactly the same as the results. Holder, once again, as he is doing in Ferguson, tried to find a reason to bring Zimmerman to trail on civil rights violations. He had no success; and he will have no success in Ferguson.

The irony is we have a president who does NOT believe in the rule of law, making claims to the public, that we have the rule of law; and then going into a rant that he understands the anger of the Ferguson people, basically because the rule of law failed. Thus fueling the race problems in America. He had such a great opportunity to unite the American people, but chose not to; because keeping blacks upset and implying there is no justice for them in America, was the goal.

Posted by: Sam Jones at November 25, 2014 1:15 PM
Comment #386102

Eric Holder is performing his work in the capacity of the Attorney General of the USA. Right wing ideologues take offense to his approach to seek justice for all of this country’s citizens. I’m pretty sure he measures his success using the rule of justice and not right wing ideologue rules. I did not hear the divisiveness in President Obama’s speech last night at all. I heard compassion and a call for calm. I hesitate to come to the same conclusion as I have seen postulated by many people this morning, that he somehow wants to upset people. I think there are a great many people that instead are looking to find ways to be upset about anything he says.

Posted by: Speak4all at November 25, 2014 2:41 PM
Comment #386106

George in SC,
I do not buy the cop’s version of the initial altercation. I do believe the cop and the victim initially exchanged words, and the exchange quickly turned ugly. We already know that. The cop drove away, and suddenly ‘remembered’ he had just received a call about a robbery with a description matching that of the victim, and stopped.

That sounds highly unlikely to me. It doesn’t pass the smell test. More likely, the exchange continued, and the victim said something choice enough to really anger the cop. At this point, it turned physical.

I find it very hard to believe the victim ran the distance of half a football field after already being shot at twice back at the car, and then turned on the cop who had already fired at him, and charged, even though the cop was pointing a pistol at him. That does not pass the smell test either.

Posted by: phx8 at November 25, 2014 3:55 PM
Comment #386111

phx8

The first shots were fired while Wilson was in the car and Brown had his had on the gun. That is not the recollection but rather what the evidence says. Physically, the man standing outside the car has more leverage than the one sitting inside.

As I have written elsewhere, the situation got out of hand. Maybe Wilson made a bad decision stopping Brown. He probably thought it was courageous in doing the job. The line between courageous and rash is sometimes easy to cross.

Ihe idea of murder makes no sense. He would have to had formulated the idea to kill Brown - a stranger - while driving past. Why? He then would have had implemented his plan by sitting in a vulnerable position. We could argue that he should just have let Brown run away w/o pursuit. But it would be a bit of a direction of duty. He knew he had a large and strong suspect who was not afraid to physically attack a cop. To let such a man run off would have been irresponsible.

In any case, a jury went through all this. I can understand how they might have come to a different conclusion, but they did what they did and the rule of law and justice was served.

The riots are unjustified. When I get really angry or upset, my thoughts do not turn to breaking into liquor stores or burning the shops in my neighborhood.

Posted by: C&J at November 25, 2014 4:22 PM
Comment #386114

C&J, why are you wasting your time trying to explain to idiots what the law or what the evidence says. These same clowns said, after all the evidence was shown in the Zimmerman/Martin case, if they had been on the jury, they would have found Zimmerman guilty. It doesn’t matter what you tell them, the cop is guilty and the protesters are within their rights to burn, pillage, and shoot some 90 to 100 shots from guns. In fact, people like phx8 would probably say they would be justified in killing the cops.

Posted by: George at November 25, 2014 4:36 PM
Comment #386121

C&J,
I was not clear on whether there was a possibility Brown was pushing away the gun, or trying to grab it. Pushing it away makes more sense, would still leave DNA on the weapon, and be consistent with the evidence. That is the problem with murder. The victim is dead and cannot offer an explanation, while the killer gets to tell the narrative most favorable to him.

In any case, I do not see how first degree murder could even have been considered as a charge. The cop surely felt anger and obviously made bad decisions, but this was not planned. The jury should have been directed to consider at least a version of manslaughter.

Posted by: phx8 at November 25, 2014 5:17 PM
Comment #386123

Phx8

He had no business with the gun at all. It doesn’t make sense in general that the cop would just start to draw his gun while sitting in the car unless he felt it absolutely necessary for safety or thought the other guy was going for the gun.

Let me stipulate that Brown did not deserve to die for what he did, but he was clearly a thug. In fact, it looks very much like he was doing to the cop what he had a short time ago done at the convenience store.

We do - and should - give cops benefit of the doubt. If an ordinary guy stopped his car to give a couple of guys a hard time for slowing traffic and that resulted in violence, we would be more likely to call it a crime. It is the cops’ job to do what Wilson did.

Posted by: C&J at November 25, 2014 6:33 PM
Comment #386124

“The jury should have been directed to consider at least a version of manslaughter.”

Posted by: phx8 at November 25, 2014 5:17 PM

Once again phx8 shows his ignorance of the case. The jury was instructed in 5 possible decisions:

1. First-degree murder

2. Second-degree murder

3. Voluntary manslaughter

4. Involuntary manslaughter

5. No charges

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/18/justice/ferguson-grand-jury-charges/

phx8 sounds like most of the witnesses when they were on the news camera; but their stories changed once under oath.

Posted by: George at November 25, 2014 6:59 PM
Comment #386130

C&J,
I am not even slightly inclined to give policemen the benefit of the doubt, and if you had the kind of experience I had with one, you would feel the same way. Most are good people performing a crucial and difficult duty.

I ran into a bad one. I did nothing wrong. The cop lied. I won one lawsuit and lost the other. Due to a last minute switch, I drew a bad judge, and it turned into a loss. I think a different one would have ruled in my favor. It happens. It cost me a net loss of $15,000, so I was not inclined to risk the expense of an appeal.

It turns out a witness who said Brown was charging the officer wrote this on a blog:

“Need to understand the Black race better so I stop calling Blacks Niggers and Start calling them People.”

Best evidence: the video showing the witness yelling at the cop that the victim had his hands up.

Posted by: phx8 at November 25, 2014 8:32 PM
Comment #386131

Phx8

“Need to understand the Black race better so I stop calling Blacks Niggers and Start calling them People.”

There is no indication that Wilson did anything like this. It is a silly comment and we should not let people get away with that.

I get along well with liberal friends, since they know what to expect from me. I don’t let them get away with the “trump” phrases, such as using race or gender in the to win a discussion in the absence of truth.


The “evidence” of the witness yelling at the cop is passionate but not necessarily accurate. There were lots of witnesses who talked to the media and said other things under oath and the physical evidence shows that the “witness” was mistaken, no matter the passion displayed.

The Grand Jury did a good job. They saw all the evidence and decided no crime had been committed by Wilson. They avoided the passion and used their reason and intelligence.

Re cops - let me keep my point focused again. We give the cops benefit of the doubt because of the nature of their jobs. No ordinary citizen would confront a giant like Michael Brown; the cop had a duty to do so. What they do is different than what we do.

Posted by: C&J at November 25, 2014 8:49 PM
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