Most Americans make it to the top 20%

Most Americans make it to the top 20%. I want to do better. It is my goal to achieve that top 1%, at least for a while. I already experienced the poverty end of the equation. I don’t recall it being very much fun, which is why I left. I won’t care if the successors to the erstwhile occupy Wall Street folks shake their fists at me. I will cry about it all the way to the bank, as I proudly proclaim, “Yes, I am the 1%.”

I have always tried to improve myself, to be better tomorrow than I was yesterday. The thing that offends me about much of the redistribution crap is that the idea that success is mostly random. It is part of a general trend of wimpification of America.

I doubt I will make it to the top 1%, but I would be proud if I achieved that. I would know that I had done my part. I could now be generous and I think I would be. But I would expect that the recipients of my generosity feel grateful.

Posted by Christine & John at May 5, 2014 8:17 PM
Comments
Comment #378205

http://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/1212/average-net-worth-of-the-1.aspx

http://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/1010/is-the-middle-class-really-disappearing.aspx

“”However, the wealthiest percent were paid nearly a quarter of all income earned in America in 2007. They also owned a whopping 40% of the country’s overall wealth that year, a gain of 7% over the previous 25 years. And that 40% includes nearly half of all liquid stock, bond and mutual fund holdings held by investors of any type in America that year. Furthermore, the data that shows these figures also indicate that the wealthiest percent have not earned this much on an inflation-adjusted basis since the 1920s, and they only owe a measly 5% of the nation’s debt.””
“”Much of the growing disparity can be traced to tax breaks on income, gift and estate taxes by past presidential administrations as well as the decline of labor unions in America. Although the middle class also benefited somewhat from the reduction in taxes, it allowed the wealthy to retain a much greater portion of their assets and pass them on to their heirs. The technology boom also added new members to the top percentile of the wealthy, as shown in the Forbes annual list of the 400 wealthiest Americans. Their members’ combined net worth currently equals an unbelievable $1.7 trillion, or one-eighth of the U.S. economy.””

I sincerely hope you make it C&J. But, if you do it will be in large part due to support from Uncle Sam. It will be that ‘gov’t influence’ that helped to make you super dude wealthy.

Otherwise - - -

Posted by: roy ellis at May 5, 2014 10:09 PM
Comment #378206

C&J, Two questions,first, is this envy of yours for the wealthy the same envy we see you guys on the right blame anyone who criticizes them of having?

Secondly do you equate improving yourself to having more money as you seem to have implied in this ode to the on percent? Well ok perhaps not an ode but surely a song and and dance to the most wealthy amongst us.

Posted by: j2t2 at May 5, 2014 10:10 PM
Comment #378207

Roy

If I make it, I will be very grateful to Uncle Sam. I love America for many reasons, but one of the most important is that it makes possible the prosperity of its people.

j2t2

I don’t envy the wealthy. I don’t want to take away what they have. I want to earn some of the same. I want to emulate the successful.

Re improving myself and money. In the U.S., money often follows achievement. I do not equate the two, however. It is possible to be rich and be a worthless asshole. I have met many and heard about even more. It is also possible to be poor and honest and useful, although if you are very poor for a long time it probably indicates that you are not doing too much to make yourself useful.

I am mostly pragmatic about this. What I really want from people is that they do something useful to others or if they choose not to that they don’t bother me. Money is a useful tool in this respect. If you manage to earn good money you can - and I think you should - be generous. If you don’t make good money you have a much harder time being generous, since you have nothing to give, unless you have some useful skill that you deploy generously. I don’t see very much of that.

Re my goal to reach the 1% - it is just fun. It is not my only goal and I could have reached it already if I wanted to. I know what I would have to do and I know how to do it, but I made a conscious decision way back in 1997 to take a slower but more gratifying road. I think I will reach the 1% for one year in 2015, when I expect a decent sized timber sale. I am negotiating that now. I told potential buyers that I like money a lot, but I like my land, water and wildlife even more and that if there was a tradeoff we should go with sustainable. I think that is a good point of view, made possible by the fact that I am not so poor as to need to sell at any condition.

PS - I don’t much like the occupy style protests because they - in my observation - were dirty and disorganized. They made a mess of parks that I liked, filled the bathrooms of local restaurants with shit and garbage and generally got in the way. Again, simply being pragmatic, they were a pain in the ass and I wanted them to go away, which they eventually did.

Posted by: CJ at May 5, 2014 11:12 PM
Comment #378213

CJ,

Do you know how much money you will need to make in one year to be in the 1% for just that year? (in 2006 it was about $350k but it doesn’t make one a 1%’er)

Do you know how much wealth is needed to be a real member of the top 1%? (in 2011 it was net about $5 million)

For what it’s worth, if you make it into the top 1% income bracket for that one year I might hold off on the generous thing for a bit. With the GOP and the blue dogs working hard to gut the social support network and reducing social security and health benefits you might very well need the cash.

Posted by: Dave at May 6, 2014 2:34 PM
Comment #378214

C/J, earthly treasure is a shimmer…here today and gone tomorrow.

Posted by: Royal Flush at May 6, 2014 4:28 PM
Comment #378217

Dave

I am figuring the income part, not the wealth part. I have enough now, according to my needs. I would just like to knock that goal off as a kind of challenge.

Re Social Security - I would like to get my “fair share,” but I would be willing to take a significant cut if it meant not taxing young people as much.

Royal

I know. Please see above. I don’t really seek great earthly wealth, but I would like some.

Chrissy and I have talked about what would change if we had a lot more money. We have most of the things we need and want. The big difference would be first-business class. If I had big money, I would never again fly tourist class. Besides that, $1 million would not change my lifestyle that much.

There is a saying,”Many people have too much money, but nobody has enough.” I think I have enough but not too much.

Posted by: CJ at May 6, 2014 5:38 PM
Comment #378218

obama has just ramped up the controversy on MMGW by saying there is no controversy. It is fact according to the LORD and Tyrant.

Can any of the MMGW crowd tell me at which point(s) in the last two million years or so, in which evidence shows that a cooler planet was more beneficial to our bio-mass? How was man involved in global warming eons ago?

obama when he first ran for the presidency proclaimed a war on fossil fuel energy. Given his way, we all will be paying hugely higher energy costs. The poor will be poorer and the middle class will suffer. The rich mostly won’t really give a shit and continue with their profligate waste of energy.

Did obama or any of the dems announce what they would do, personally, to reduce their own carbon footprint. No! I thought so.

Posted by: Royal Flush at May 6, 2014 7:16 PM
Comment #378220

C&J,

I suggest that you might take a look at the link provided in the article regarding upward mobility in the US which hasn’t increased in decades. ..”(1) Upward income mobility varies substantially within the U.S. [summary][paper] Areas with greater mobility tend to have five characteristics: less segregation, less income inequality, better schools, greater social capital, and more stable families. (2) Contrary to popular perception, economic mobility has not changed significantly over time; however, it is consistently lower in the U.S. than in most developed countries.”

Depressing.

Posted by: Rich at May 6, 2014 8:58 PM
Comment #378221

Rich

I think (fear) equal opportunity given enough time will create slower mobility. Think about that. If there is less equal opportunity, talent and hard work mean less. We think that is bad because mobility implies that the hard working and/or talented get ahead. But advance this a few generations. Those with talent and good habits get ahead. They move up the ladder. After a while, society has sorted itself by actual ability as parents pass their talents and habits on to their kids. Mobility virtually stops.

Your points are good ones, but maybe they reflect more effect than cause. Good schools are defined often by good families. The stable families create the social capital. But maybe the stable families are the result of the evolution I talked about above.

America was the land of opportunity before most other countries. Perhaps we are farther along this curve. It is interesting that we see substantial mobility among immigrants. They are new to the system and not yet sorted.

If you are near the bottom in the U.S. for a couple generations, it is likely that talents and habits you acquired from your family and neighbors have put you there.

It is not a pleasant thought. We like to think that everybody could make it given the chance, but this is obviously not true. Sooner or later, we all bump up against the limits of our cognitive ability or desire to work. Some hit the bumpers sooner than others.

Re upward mobility - I don’t see it increasing in the future. We had a unique situation in the last couple centuries where suddenly there were lots of opportunities. Life improved remarkable since 1800. I think it will continue to improve, but we will notice less. The difference between no refrigerator and a small refrigerator is very great. Making that twice as big doesn’t give the same amount of satisfaction. Our problem is that all of us are already rich by any historical standard. We are a bit jaded.

Posted by: CJ at May 6, 2014 9:49 PM
Comment #378222

CJ,

So… do you agree there significantly unequal opportunity or just moving on? Either way is fine. but:

equal opportunity given enough time will create slower mobility
I see the opposite. Look at W Bush as a primary example. He was incompetent as a businessman and each time after his endeavors flopped he was propped up by daddy’s friends. Equal opportunity says he should have been an alcoholic taxi driver. As for “centuries of opportunity”, our real growth occured post WWII with income and wealth equality at its highest. Strong Middle Class = Strong Economy but we’re losing that.

Flush,

a cooler planet was more beneficial to our bio-mass?
Not a relevent question, unless you are acknowledging that AGW is real and are asking “why is that bad?”. However, I hope you feel better after that rhetorical question diatribe.

Posted by: Dave at May 7, 2014 9:03 AM
Comment #378228

Dave

Think of what WWII did. It destroyed lots of stuff worldwide that required rebuilding. It left the U.S. producing half of the world’s GDP, so our stuff was in demand. It physically eliminated millions of people, creating the need for labor and tended to wipe out lots of the poor and sick in Europe. It is like a big forest fire. After the destruction, things grow faster and healthier.

Beyond that, it trained millions of American men to work together and have discipline.

We benefited from this for twenty-five years. They system collapsed in the 1970s.

The best time for World Growth has been since 1980. It was during this time that absolute poverty was cut faster than ever before. This had an effect on his. It created more worldwide competition for us as well as opportunities that could be seized by the clever or active to become richer.

These consideration, however, are beside my point about mobility and it being self limiting.

What is intelligence? We find it hard to define, but we know that it makes people more successful. If you have less opportunity, intelligence is less valuable. As you increase opportunity, smarter people with better work habits will get ahead. Great.

But how is this success created? It is not randomly distributed. Some intelligence is passed genetically and some is pass along by parents to their kids in training and habit. We need not determine the exact amounts, since the kids of successful parents will get it from both directions. Smart parents can and do produce dumb and lazy kids sometimes, but the correlation is the opposite.

I grew up poorer than average. I was smarter than average too, but when I went to college at 18, I quickly realized that the “rich kids” were better than I was. They knew how to study better and had lots of good habits that I had to learn myself. Move it a generation forward. My kids are smarter than average AND I have trained them in better habits. If they ever get married, they are likely to marry people more like them. You can see the trend.

Posted by: CJ at May 7, 2014 10:34 PM
Comment #378257

We’re going in circles.
My points are:
- During the post WWII era of growth the new wealth was equitably distributed; the GINI number stayed relatively low and median and mean incomes were on the relatively same track. As productivity went up so did wages.
- During the post Reagan era of greed none of those are true; the GINI number is going up and median income is going up while mean income is going down. Productivity is going up, wages are going down.
- Some articles say class mobility has gotten worse, some say it hasn’t changed over the last 30 years. Everyone agrees that it’s worse here than the rest of the first world. Everyone says it used to be more fluid (post Great Depression).
Your points are:
- You started in poverty, now you are not poor and made a good investment so you anticipate a windfall.
- Since you did it, it must mean people still poor are at fault for staying poor.

For some backup:
The period from the end of World War II to the early 1970s was a golden era of American capitalism. $200 billion in war bonds matured, and the G.I. Bill financed a well-educated work force. The middle class swelled, as did GDP and productivity. The U.S. underwent a kind of golden age of economic growth. This growth was distributed fairly evenly across the economic classes, which some attribute to the strength of labor unions in this period—labor union membership peaked historically in the U.S. during the 1950s, in the midst of this massive economic growth. Much of the growth came from the movement of low income farm workers into better paying jobs in the towns and cities—a process largely completed by 1960. Congress created the Council of Economic Advisors, to promote high employment, high profits and low inflation. The Eisenhower administration (1953–1961) supported an activist contracyclical approach that helped to establish Keynesianism as a bipartisan economic policy for the nation. Especially important in formulating the CEA response to the recession—accelerating public works programs, easing credit, and reducing taxes—were Arthur F. Burns and Neil H. Jacoby. “I am now a Keynesian in economics,” proclaimed Republican President Richard Nixon in 1969

In 1981, Ronald Reagan introduced Reaganomics. That is, fiscally expansive economic policies, cutting marginal federal income tax rates by 25%. … The federal debt spawned by his policies tripled (from $930 billion in 1981 to $2.6 trillion in 1988), reaching record levels… In addition to the fiscal deficits, the U.S. started to have large trade deficits..(and) saw income inequality increase dramatically to levels never seen before. … In 1968, the U.S. Gini coefficient was 0.386. In 2005, the American Gini coefficient had reached 0.469.

Posted by: Dave at May 9, 2014 10:46 AM
Comment #378264

1) We’re talking 40 years worth of data, so that includes time periods where the middle class was doing much better.

2) We’re talking Households, so that means not simply one person, but two people, even more at some points as teenagers or adult children living at home find work.

What we’re talking here is an evanescent thing, a brief period.

So, my question is, with current economic conditions, what can we expect in terms of level of income on an individual level?

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at May 9, 2014 6:17 PM
Comment #378265

Dave

I am just telling you that you cannot compare a time when we were springing back from more than ten years of depression followed by the greatest war in the history of mankind to things at another time.

The great expansion after the war ended around 1972, in any case. So if you are looking to blame something, you cannot choose Reagan. He was elected to a large extent because things had already gone wrong.

As I wrote, it is like after a forest fire: things grow much faster. Beyond that, much of the rest of the world was destroyed or undeveloped. The U.S. could call the economic shots. It was a good time, although I find it interesting that liberals don’t look back on the 1950 as a great time except to criticize economics of today. It was also a time of segregation and massive defense buildups. The military made a much greater % of the budget than it does today and entitlements made up less than a third, as opposed to 2/3 now. The tax rates at the top were much higher, but the effect tax rate was lower than it is today.

Since the 1960s, when things started to go bad, we have had big changes in American society. The growth of single parent households, for example. Stable married couples are better off and almost never poor.

Re what I am saying - you got it wrong. I started relatively poor. I am now relatively rich, top 10%. I hope to make the 1% by a big payoff from a long term investment. It is not a windfall, since I have been working on it for a long time.

I do not believe and never state that anyone can become rich. But I do believe that staying poor results from bad decisions.

Stephen

After nearly six years of Obama doldrums, I am a little worried too. But I am optimistic that we will adapt and cheered by the massive new energy made possible by fracking. The energy stimulus may yet pull us out of the doldrums.

Posted by: CJ at May 9, 2014 6:58 PM
Comment #378330

CJ,

I think I get our difference in opinions. You’ve been speaking from the religious right viewpoint. That explains not addressing the evidence I present and replies focusing on “logic” and “common sense” and the predetermined outcomes of “America’s moral decline”. These aren’t facts, they’re opinions. If you believe it, they make sense. If you don’t believe it, it’s just unconvincing argument.
Also, your point about our post WWII growth is completely wrong. The GROWTH then was equally distributed, GINI = 0.39. The GROWTH now is aboslutely not, GINI is now .47. I’ve presented evidence of why I feel it’s happeneing, now it’s your turn for evidence. A link about the concept of GINI, is here. It might help in future conversations. You can also see change in wealth distributions here.

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