Obamacare: April Fool's Joke is On America

Possibly the biggest prank in April Fool’s history. Last night, the clock ticked over the deadline to sign up for some level of health care. Today, Obama is giving high fives all around for “reaching the goal” for the number of people signed up for the health care. 7.1 million people signed up for “Obamacare.”

Two things: 1) That's roughly 2.26% of the population of the United States (est. 313.9), and the President has made it very clear he wants everyone to have health coverage. This number is a joke. 2) 2.26% exceeded their "goal"? That's insulting. Neither of these things condones a celebration of any sort.

Meghan McCain said it best a few months ago, when we saw the first signs of legitimate failure in Obamacare. She said, "He's in a really precarious position. This is supposed to be the bill that defines his presidency and it's debatably a failure." Ultimately, "Obamacare has been nothing but a complete disaster. The rollout of it is almost comically disastrous," she added.

Posted by bigtex at April 1, 2014 4:56 PM
Comments
Comment #377638

First off of the su8pposed 7.1 mil. Who actually paid the 1st payment? How many are the young that are supposed to pay for the elderly? There are lots of questions that are not being answered. This president has lied about this ACA before, how do we know he’s telling the truth now? You can say 7.1 million people have put their policy in the shopping cart, but that doesn’t mean they made their first payment.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at April 2, 2014 9:39 AM
Comment #377639

The inevitable declaration by the “right” to prove they are “right” on everything is one of the leading problems we have today. There are zero facts in Meghans statement. Zero. Nilch. Nada. Zip. Null.

The right needed the ACA to fail, they needed people to not have health insurance in order to justify their ideology. By extension, the horrible conclusion is that the GOP and TP want policies that cause people to die. In fact, red state refusals to extend Medicaad in their states has resulted in additional 7100 to 17000 premature and preventable deaths in their states.

some facts:
- The insurance companies stated they are happy with the demographics of those who signed up.
- More people approve of the ACA than disapprove. This is depite the millions spent by the rightist posterboys (Koch brothers)
- Everyone is now elegible w/ pre-existing conditions or not
- Nearly everyones insurance costs have gone down. Worst case scenarios if low end estimates of younger enrollees are correct is that next years premiums will go up 1-2%. Better than my recent experiences.
- Those whose costs went up did so largely because their prior plans were essentially useless.
- Those who lost their plans did so at the decision of the insurance companies, not because of the ACA (see cost increase).
- Every so-called horror story promoted by the posterboys turned out to be nonsense.

The summary:
- The ACA is a small step in the right direction.
- The rollout problems will be a blip, just like W’s Medicare rollout.

So, I am left with only one question for the naysayers: Since the US health care system is listed as the 37th best in the world why would we want to remain the only industrialized nation without ready access to affordable health care?

(I avoided the logical faux pas in the post. It’s not that 2.26% of the population now have health insurance. It’s an additional 2.26% of the population now have health insurance who didn’t have it before, and that doesn’t even include the Medicaid expansions.)

Posted by: Dave at April 2, 2014 9:43 AM
Comment #377641

First off Dave, LA time and NY times are both liberal media apologist for Obama. Second how many are signed up for MEDICAID? How many are getting their policies partially funded by the tax payers? Your link for Insurance companies come up with auto policy companies. The health insurance link is a search engine for H.C. policies
and really says nothing for your argument. So try again maybe you’ll find something to answer the questions asked.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at April 2, 2014 10:13 AM
Comment #377642

The following article is from one of the most conservative news outlets in the country:

Read it and weep

From the last paragraph of the article:

So, it isn’t as if there won’t be any openings for Republicans to push reforms to the health care system that attempt to inject more freedom and choice into the system. It just means that any policies being advanced by the GOP will have to grapple with what to do with the millions of Americans gaining coverage through Obamacare.

KAP
I agree. Facts do have a liberal bias. All of your questions will be answered in due time. I expect a lot of those answers to favor the PPACA just in time for the next election cycle.

Posted by: Speak4all at April 2, 2014 10:56 AM
Comment #377643

Sorry try this link to an article in one of the most conservative new outlets in the country (Washington Examiner):

Read it and weep

Posted by: Speak4all at April 2, 2014 11:00 AM
Comment #377646

The ACA may not be an absolute huge success. It certainly is a step in the right direction regardless of the views of those who worked so hard to insure it would fail. I might add that the true failure here is of those who utterly failed at insuring it would fail despite blatantly obvious need for change. You folks of course have big time egg on your face as a result. Virtually everyone at some point in their lives has a need for healthcare. Healthcare that in only a matter of a few days could easily bankrupt the average person. Any move away from that possibility and towards angst free care for anyone who wishes to participate at a reasonably affordable cost is surely a good thing in comparison to the previous non existent alternatives for many.

Posted by: RickIL at April 2, 2014 12:13 PM
Comment #377647

The whole success of ACA depends on the younger healthier people getting H.C. coverage so the older sicker people don’t bankrupt the system. Now the next question is how many of those younger healthier people have enrolled?

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at April 2, 2014 12:23 PM
Comment #377648

Not sure about your ‘facts’ as they don’t match up with actual facts that exist anywhere…

- The insurance companies stated they are happy with the demographics of those who signed up.

Insurance companies are VERY happy. VERY VERY happy. Of course, that should be a clue, shouldn’t it? They are getting government bailouts and an increase in customers because of the individual mandate. Basically we’ve taken everything that is broken with health care costs in this country and doubled down on them, making sure that they continue for many years to come while the profits of those insurance companies continue to rise. It’s a win/win for them, if the numbers don’t add up then the government just gives them money to make up their losses. Where that money comes from? Oh yeah, our kid’s paychecks…

It’s something called moral hazzard. We introduced it into our economic system a while back and saw the result of that in 2007 and since. Now we place it into our healthcare system. It’s a fun time all around!

- More people approve of the ACA than disapprove. This is depite the millions spent by the rightist posterboys (Koch brothers)

There is no poll that I am aware of that shows anything close to what you say. You can see the results of the polling done from major polling firms here:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html

In addition, there has never been more approval than disapproval for this plan since it was first announced, before any ‘Koch Brothers’ spending was done.

I’ve also never understood why progressives think that telling people they are stupid sheep that can be bought for a few bucks is good politics, but since they aren’t really asking me my opinion on the matter, I doubt they are going to change that any time soon.

- Everyone is now elegible w/ pre-existing conditions or not

Yes, everyone is now eligible, which of course raises rates for everyone. What you fail to mention is that had this been the extent of the ACA, it would still have been misnamed, but would also have been widely applauded and approved of. BTW, this was the case already in most of the states of the country before the ACA and in many cases federally after 1996 with HIPPA, so the number of people who it helped is pretty small in reality.

- Nearly everyones insurance costs have gone down. Worst case scenarios if low end estimates of younger enrollees are correct is that next years premiums will go up 1-2%. Better than my recent experiences.

Actually, this isn’t true. Some people are paying less right now because they are getting money from the government in the form of subsidies. That money is coming out of additional taxes that they will have to pay going forward and from other people’s taxes. And your suggestion that premiums will go up 1-2% isn’t resembling anything close to reality…

Mercer’s poll of 2,842 employers with 10 or more employees shows that growth in the per-employee cost of coverage slowed from 4.1 percent in 2012 to just 2.1 percent in 2013. But that rate will more than double this year, to 5.2 percent.

That figure takes into account plan changes employers will make to reduce costs. “If they made no changes to the current plans, they estimate that costs would rise more—by an average of 8 percent,” Umland notes.

Some of the increase, such as ACA-related expenses, is beyond employers’ control.

http://www.shrm.org/Publications/hrmagazine/EditorialContent/2014/0314/Pages/0314-rising-health-care-costs.aspx

WellPoint Inc., parent of California’s leading health insurer in the exchange, Anthem Blue Cross, has already predicted “double-digit-plus” rate increases on Obamacare policies across much of the country.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-obamacare-deadline-rates-20140330,0,5708594.story#ixzz2xkA8xhS5

- Those whose costs went up did so largely because their prior plans were essentially useless.

Again, that’s pretty much illogical. If they were useless, people wouldn’t have bought them, unless again, you assume that people are stupid and Washington bureaucrats are smarter at what is better for them they they are. Since we know that this is pretty much the basis for progressive politics, I guess we can see where you are getting that from.

- Those who lost their plans did so at the decision of the insurance companies, not because of the ACA (see cost increase).

Invalid logic. First of all, the administration knew that this would happen and debated talking about it and decided that if they did they would not have been able to pass the law. Second, you are suggesting that companies keep their premiums at 0% increases year over year, not taking inflation costs into account? How long would that have lasted do you suppose before they would have went out of business? That doesn’t even take into account changes to plans because of new technologies/health care discoveries that would need to be amended into the plans thereby making them ‘changed’ and illegal under the new law.

If the law hadn’t been passed, those plans would still have been legal. It was making them illegal that caused them to be cancelled. Trying as you will to blame the big bad mean greedy insurance companies is once again thinking that the general public is stupid.

- Every so-called horror story promoted by the posterboys turned out to be nonsense.

Every one? Not exactly no. I’ve detailed one myself that even the debunkers couldn’t debunk. But you’ve been told what you want to hear so there is no reason to do any research into it yourself, is there?

The real sad part of all of this is that repealing a law in this country is nearly impossible. Not because the laws are logical, workable or even make sense, it is just bad politics. So this will continue, changes will be made and we’ll still not be dealing with the real issues of why health care costs are rising in this country (a hint, health care and health insurance are two different things, as much as people want to combine them for political purposes).

We’ve taken a situation where a middle man was making costs higher and added ANOTHER middle man to lower those costs? Seriously, people think this makes any sense?

Until we are in a situation where people are making proper health decisions based on their own situations, paying for their health care directly with their own money (which in most cases is cheaper than the cost of insurance, otherwise insurance companies couldn’t make money) then even people who make good decisions are hamstrung.

I know someone who was having gall bladder surgery and was told by the surgeon to pay for it directly with cash instead of submitting it to the insurance companies. Why? Because the cost of the surgery was actually LOWER than he would have paid with his deductible and co-pays…

You think going to the ER for people for minor things was a drag on the system (it wasn’t), just wait until people start going in for all of the unnecessary tests and preventative measures that their doctors don’t feel that they need just because they can afford it now…

That meant Davidson could buy a Silver plan from Blue Shield of California that costs her $92 a month — thanks to a federal subsidy. “I probably neglected my health the last few years because of the expense,” Davidson said. “Now I’m going to have every test known to man.”

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-obamacare-deadline-rates-20140330,0,5708594.story#ixzz2xkKlaMml

All over the country many doctors are starting to opt out of insurance because it has just become too much, too many other people making money off of their work and getting in the way of taking care of people, telling them how to treat people, what they can and can’t test for, etc. Co-ops are forming and charging a small monthly fee for unlimited healthcare, including direct email services for questions on their healthcare that can help save money more than going in to visit the doctor directly in many cases. This includes surgery centers, radiologists, etc. Going forward that may be the only real solution since the preferred solution of paying directly coupled with catastrophic plans (which have now been made illegal) was squashed by this administration.

Posted by: Rhinehold at April 2, 2014 12:24 PM
Comment #377649
The ACA may not be an absolute huge success. It certainly is a step in the right direction regardless of the views of those who worked so hard to insure it would fail.

How exactly? Adding a second layer of bureaucracy to the system is a step in the right direction? Maybe we should add a third?

Never mind the fact that we just added more politics into the health care decision making in addition to the business needs of insurance companies that was there already of course…

Here’s a little factoid that people seem to forget.

Health insurance, for the vast overwhelming majority of people, costs more than paying directly for their healthcare. On top of that, it incentivizes people to not actually save for healthcare anymore because, well, they have insurance. Adding moral hazard to our healthcare is a bad idea, adding MORE of it is a worse one.

Paying directly for healthcare, with low costs catastrophic plans to prevent people from having large unforeseen medical expenses bankrupt people, is the only real solution to rising healthcare costs, period. Anything else just keeps the failed system alive and kicking to make things worse.

Posted by: Rhinehold at April 2, 2014 12:34 PM
Comment #377651

BTW, predicting what is going to happen next is not rocket science…

Right now the insurance companies are starting to calculate 2015 health insurance costs. Once they get the actual numbers in in a few weeks time (how many people actually signed up for health insurance through the exchanges, it won’t be 7.1 million btw, and who they are specifically) and couple that with who bought outside of the exchanges, they will come up with the rates for next year.

That number is predicted to increase between 8 and 12%. The administration will say ‘ok, well you can’t do that to us because people won’t sign up again next year, so we’ll give you x amount of tax dollars for each signup if you keep it down to around 2%. The insurance companies will take the guaranteed money and keep the rates lower, the government will print a bit more money to cover the costs, etc… This will be the cycle for a few years while the increase costs to the system because of people getting unnecessary testing, etc will continue. Research into new healthcare advances will diminish because the rate on return of that investment will dry up and we’ll soon see healthcare in this country become less and less advanced…

Don’t think this will all happen? Just look at what happened yesterday when they passed the Medicare doc fix delay for a 17th time… You know, the part of the ACA that was supposed to make the Affordable part have any resemblance to its definition?

Posted by: Rhinehold at April 2, 2014 12:47 PM
Comment #377652

Doom and gloom and more doom and gloom, woe is me, woe is everything. What’s a good conservative to do. We haven’t started any wars or invaded any countries recently. All we have managed to accomplish is perhaps getting more people healthcare insurance coverage. Oh woe is me. What might happen next if the PPACA actually improves healthcare and healthcare delivery? Stay tuned to see more from the greatest experiment in healthcare improvement the world has ever known. Some people think we should have either done nothing or done a whole lot less.

Posted by: Speak4all at April 2, 2014 12:59 PM
Comment #377654

Nope no doom and gloom speaks, just asking reasonable questions and want TRUTHFUL answers. I know it’s hard for Obama to be truthful about the ACA but just this once would be appreciated.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at April 2, 2014 1:13 PM
Comment #377655

One other question, If Obama would have been truthful about the keeping your policy that you liked and Doctor that you liked, Do you honestly think that it would have passed? IMO a lot of the Democrat, senators and reps would have flipped Obama the Bird.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at April 2, 2014 1:23 PM
Comment #377656

BTW, let’s do a little math…

7.1 million ‘signups’. The estimation by most people I have heard in the health insurance industry is that about 75-80% of those signups will actually enroll.

So, let’s take that down to 5.68 million people actually enrolled.

Previous to the enrollment period, around 4.2 million people lost their insurance because of the ACA requirements.

So either they got insurance or they decided to stay uninsured. That brings the number down to 1.48 million people.

Ok, so potentially 1.48 million people have insurance now than had it before.

Now, considering how many people of those 1.48 million would have gotten insurance on their own without the ACA in place is a hard one to quantify (people just leaving home and getting out on their own, people who are offered insurance at their jobs who are now buying it individually, etc). Since I can’t quantify it, I’ll leave the number where it is, though it probably would make it smaller.

Now let’s take the medicaid enrollees. We are told that 4 million ‘new enrolees’ to medicaid occurred this year (I don’t have the most recent numbers atm).

1.9 million of those new signups were in states that didn’t extend the medicaid requirements, so that leaves 2.1 million new enrollments in states that did.

Now, we can take a look at enrollment rates in those states and determine how many new enrollments that would have typically had without the expansions and see that roughly 200,000 to 400,000 more people have medicaid now than they would have without the ACA.

Add the generous 400,000 with the 1.48 million people that are new to the exchanges and we see 1.88 million people with some kind of insurance now that didn’t have it before.

The previous estimates of people going without insurance was around 46 million, we are seeing a decrease in that number to 44.12 million people.

A reduction of 4.1%…

Obamacare costs are estimated at 136 billion per year. (1.36 Trillion by 2023). This is administrative, advertising, compliance, subsidies, etc.

So, for that 1.88 million people this year, we spent 136 billion to get them insured. That comes out to 72,000 per person…

That’s just the cost of implementing the law, not the costs that individuals have to pay to the insurance companies or the medical payments those insurance companies end up paying.

I guess we’ll just have to wait and see if those numbers improve.

Posted by: Rhinehold at April 2, 2014 1:46 PM
Comment #377657

KAP
I believe that President Obama is the most truthful president this country has had in recent memory. That you do not agree with that is something wonderful that we in this country get to do. I continue to support him and his efforts, much to your chagrin. You can do that, you don’t need me to answer questions or my approval. Simple as that.

While we are discussing what might happen, what we don’t know what happened and would could happen (oh yes and how much money we’ve spent or may have saved). Maybe we can figure out that age old question of “How many angels can dance on the head of a pin”. I don’t really like discussions about the possible or probable or unable to be known, I’d rather just wait to see how this all plays out and make my decisions on the viability of the PPACA now and in the future. So far it looks good from my view, but I could be wrong. What say anyone else, could you be wrong?

Posted by: Speak4all at April 2, 2014 2:12 PM
Comment #377658

Speaks, Was saying that you can keep your policy that you like truthful? Was saying that you can keep the Doctor you like truthful? The question was would the bill have passed if those quotes where truthful? IMO if those questions where truthful and enough time was taken to let each and every senator and rep read the bill prior to it being rammed through a democrat majority congress it would never have passed. Obama promised a transparent admin. which IMO has been the LEAST transparent admin. As far as you supporting him you have every right to but as for me he is incompetent and in over his head.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at April 2, 2014 2:27 PM
Comment #377659

KAP
And I say again you can have that opinion, it is all yours. I believe President Obama was as truthful as was possible at the time. He has admitted to any of the untruths that you have detailed but that’s not good enough for you. No you need him to grovel and shame himself for your benefit. That’s not gonna happen. Look the bill was passed, it was not rammed through, it followed normal procedures and was signed by the sitting President into law. You need to get over that and try to move on. I know you don’t like him but he doesn’t get paid for you to like him. I like him and what he has been able to accomplish. And again as I have told others, you can place your questions in a very dark place without me answering or feeling obligated to answer any or all of them.

Posted by: Speak4all at April 2, 2014 2:42 PM
Comment #377660

Rich KAPitan,

You would have more success convincing the Pope that god doesn’t exist, let it go, lord knows the rest of us have.

Posted by: Rhinehold at April 2, 2014 2:52 PM
Comment #377661

Given the fact that the Papacy’s current head is really starting to question some of the church’s doctrine in a very real way, he might entertain the attempt that someone could make in a discussion with him about that subject. I doubt however that he would put up with questions like, “Why did god do this? and Why did god do that? and Can god make an object to heavy for him to pick up? and How many angels can dance on the head of pin? And oh by the way Rhinehold one of my few questions proposed on this blog in the previous comment was really directed at you. Could you be wrong?

Posted by: Speak4all at April 2, 2014 2:58 PM
Comment #377662

good idea Rhinehold, your right I probably would have more success with the pope.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at April 2, 2014 3:10 PM
Comment #377664

KAP and Rhinehold
Your silence is the confirmation that I was looking for in my question “Could you be wrong”. See how easy it is to get answers to questions. Not that difficult. I believe that you are both way to heavily invested in the failure of President Obama and the PPACA to ever, ever admit that

you

could

be

wrong.

Thanks.

Posted by: Speak4all at April 2, 2014 4:30 PM
Comment #377665

Your right I could be, but that works both ways speaks. Your not answering questions proves you could be to.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at April 2, 2014 5:11 PM
Comment #377666

KAP
I have already stated that I could be wrong about President Obama and the PPACA. I fail to see how the answers to your questions could provide more proof to you that I do believe that I could be wrong. But here goes:

Was saying that you can keep your policy that you like truthful?
At the time he said that he claims that he was being truthful.
I believe that to be true.

Was saying that you can keep the Doctor you like truthful?
At the time he said that he claims that he was being truthful.
I believe that to be true.

The question was would the bill have passed if those quotes where truthful?
I don’t know and I don’t think President Obama does either.

Now, could you be wrong?

Posted by: Speak4all at April 2, 2014 5:54 PM
Comment #377667

I ran across this great paragraph reading Walter Williams, one of my favorite conservative writers.

“Thomas Paine said, “Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil.” Our Bill of Rights is an explicit recognition of the Founding Fathers’ distrust of Congress. Just look at its language, with phrases such as “Congress shall not abridge,” “shall not infringe,” “shall not deny,” “disparage” and “violate.” If the framers did not believe that Congress would abuse our God-given, or natural, rights, they would not have used such language. If, after we die, we see anything like the Bill of Rights at our next destination, we’ll know that we’re in hell. To demand such protections in heaven would be the same as saying we can’t trust God.”

http://townhall.com/columnists/walterewilliams/2014/03/12/governed-by-rules-not-men-n1806525/page/full

Posted by: Royal Flush at April 2, 2014 6:57 PM
Comment #377668

If a lot of people signed up for Medicaid, it is a failure. It mostly sick people signed up, it is a failure. IMO, the chances of it being a failure are greater than the chances of it being a success. Even by Obama’s own standards, they just barely broke even.

Posted by: CJ at April 2, 2014 7:58 PM
Comment #377671

Royal, as Madison said,

“Wherever the real power in a Government lies, there is the danger of oppression. In our Governments, the real power lies in the majority of the Community, and the invasion of private rights is chiefly to be apprehended, not from the acts of Government contrary to the sense of its constituents, but from acts in which the Government is the mere instrument of the major number of the constituents.”

Whenever I mention this to Stephen, he tells me that this is oppression, the minority telling the majority that they can’t do something. It is interesting how things change in such a short period of time.

Also

“But the great security against a gradual concentration of the several powers in the same department, consists in giving to those who administer each department the necessary constitutional means and personal motives to resist encroachments of the others. The provision for defense must in this, as in all other cases, be made commensurate to the danger of attack. Ambition must be made to counteract ambition. The interest of the man must be connected with the constitutional rights of the place. It may be a reflection on human nature, that such devices should be necessary to control the abuses of government. But what is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself. A dependence on the people is, no doubt, the primary control on the government; but experience has taught mankind the necessity of auxiliary precautions.

Talk like that these days and you’re labelled a danger to society, investigated as wanting to overthrow government, monitored for subversive views…

Posted by: Rhinehold at April 2, 2014 10:04 PM
Comment #377673

Rich KAPitan, yeah, religions are a tricky thing. Written facts that counter the belief are just ignored even after repeated postings.

As an example:

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/obama-admin-knew-millions-could-not-keep-their-health-insurance-f8C11484394

Buried in Obamacare regulations from July 2010 is an estimate that because of normal turnover in the individual insurance market, “40 to 67 percent” of customers will not be able to keep their policy. And because many policies will have been changed since the key date, “the percentage of individual market policies losing grandfather status in a given year exceeds the 40 to 67 percent range.”

That means the administration knew that more than 40 to 67 percent of those in the individual market would not be able to keep their plans, even if they liked them.

There are even acknowledgements from the administration that they had discussions on whether or not they should be more clear on their statement, but decided that it would be harder to sell if they didn’t make simple solid statements. Keep it simple, even if it wasn’t exactly true.

Yet, the believers still believe. How do you debate that? And when you “push too hard”, you end up just being constantly insulted and accused of being a bully. It’s a no win situation.

Posted by: Rhinehold at April 2, 2014 10:36 PM
Comment #377674

Exactly Rhinehold.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at April 2, 2014 10:41 PM
Comment #377676

Rhinehold, It is no secret that the right has worked diligently since before it’s inception to strike down this law. The right refused from the get go to have anything to do with the program beyond demonizing it as another huge govt takeover. Whatever the hell that often too used generic term means. There is no question that what existed before this program was a disaster in progress. A system that allowed the exclusion of anyone deemed as a threat to profit levels by insurers for almost any reason they saw fit. A health system whose costs were rapidly outpacing the means of those in need. The actual effectiveness of this program remains to be seen of course. One thing is for sure though, treating the seriously ill as worthy for care judged solely on financial capacity was no doubt moving in the direction of health care for the affluent only. I personally would have preferred the single payer approach. I think that guaranteeing the ins industry a level of profit just to keep them involved in the process was and is a mistake. Imo health care should not be more closely associated with profits than actual need. Just my opinion of course.

Posted by: RickIL at April 3, 2014 9:37 AM
Comment #377679

Speak4all, are you going to entertain any logic in your thought process, or are you going to continue to plant your lips firmly on Obama’s ass?

Was saying that you can keep your policy that you like truthful? At the time he said that he claims that he was being truthful. I believe that to be true.

Yet it turns out he wasn’t being truthful. He was wrong. He “claims” he was being truthful. Is he lying again?

Was saying that you can keep the Doctor you like truthful? At the time he said that he claims that he was being truthful. I believe that to be true.

Again, it turned out he was wrong. He knew he wasn’t being truthful, yet you still want to believe he didn’t/couldn’t lie.

The question was would the bill have passed if those quotes where truthful? I don’t know and I don’t think President Obama does either.

Past experience shows that big federal healthcare plans coming out of congress don’t have much success. This time they had to bribe senators to pass it. Contrary to how you choose to delude yourself, it didn’t pass in a normal way. They denied allowing the bill to be examined before it was voted on, which was against their own rules. They had to bribe senators to vote for it which should be illegal, and is illegal in any other government forum.

Now, could you be wrong?

People who can follow logic and see patterns can identify a liar when they see one lie enough. Your “Read it and Weap” link to an article states the obvious. Even your own sources state it was an obvious lie:

…changes to the health care system would cause disruptions, so he needed to reassure Americans that their plans wouldn’t be affected by what he was proposing. It was a clear lie, but one that was rooted in an understanding of political realities.

This could also be read as: The American people are stupid and need to be lied to for their own good.

The lack of verification of the claim of 7.1 million enrolled is stated in this opinion:

The main number doesn’t say how many of those who have signed up for coverage will officially enroll by paying their premiums, how many were previously uninsured, how many are young and healthy, or how individual states are doing.

Yet, we are supposed to believe the proven liar when he says there are 7.1 million people enrolled? We are supposed to believe the same pathological liar that has been lying to us throughout his occupation?

How gullible do you think we are, Speak4all? As gullible as your posts lead me to believe you are? No, I don’t think so.

If it walks like a liar and it talks like a liar, it must be a liar. Obama is a liar and the only reason people would believe him would be if they have something to gain from it.

What have you got to gain from this, Speak4all? What do you get out of this personally?


Posted by: Weary Willie at April 3, 2014 10:31 AM
Comment #377681

Okay let me get this straight. I support President Obama and the PPACA. I am content to watch him serve his term in office and believe it will be judged on it’s merits. I also admit I could be wrong but see no evidence of that. And for that I get called a true believer, gullible and somehow a terrible person. On the other side of this there are several people commenting that cannot make the same admission that I do, that they could be wrong. I was correct you are to heavily invested in the failure of President Obama and the PPACA to make any rational sense. Denial is not a river in Egypt, it is all you have to support your irrational thought process and it does not prove anything other than how incapable you are of participating in honest dialogue. I guess I’ll just have to be content to chalk your comments up to a lack of the ability on your parts to realize how foolish your comments seem. But then blind partisanship does produce that result.

Posted by: Speak4all at April 3, 2014 11:27 AM
Comment #377683
Talk like that these days and you’re labelled a danger to society, investigated as wanting to overthrow government, monitored for subversive views…

Rhinehold weren’t those words written by someone who signed the declaration of Independence just a decade earlier, went to war against the King of England and won. Seems to me if you were Cornwallis or King George or English at the time you probably thought these words were ” a danger to society, investigated as wanting to overthrow government, monitored for subversive views”?

OK just a bit of humor perhaps.

But wasn’t Madison talking about the separation of power, the judicial, legislative and administrative branches of government in the Federalist papers when the country was still under the Articles of Confederation? So whilst it may seem to be implying something you consider to justify some type of political minority power wasn’t he simply discussing the pro and cons of the type of government we have and the shortfalls of the Articles of Confederation?

Posted by: j2t2 at April 3, 2014 11:33 AM
Comment #377684

I’m not partisan. I don’t like any politicians, Republican or Democratic. They’re all full of themselves. My job is to counter them and their hubris. I will fight them with everything I have. To give in to them is to surrender my being an American.

You’re the one who won’t answer questions, Speak4all. To question you makes you think we assault you. On the contrary, to question you only shows how blindly you adhere to your political beliefs, true or otherwise. You are against anything that doesn’t originate from the Democratic Party and you don’t care if it hurts the fabric of this country. As long as you can grant the Democratic Party the praise for good and demonize the Republican Party for the bad, you are content. To hell with the those who disagree with your precious party. In the words of Gov. Cuomo, they can all move out, right Speak4all? Who would pay for your ACA if all the people who believed in the founder’s vision of this country did what you would like, just moved out?


Answer the question, Speak4all. Just once. What do you get out of this loyalty to Obama?

Posted by: Weary Willie at April 3, 2014 11:41 AM
Comment #377695

j2t2, I do appreciate the joke, btw… :)

But actually no, that is not what Madison was saying. He was convincing people who didn’t want to give the government any power at all (going from articles to constitution) that we did need to give the federal government a little more power BUT acknowledged that once we open that can of worms, if we don’t have proper, defined, limits on government the power of the majority would end up squashing the rights of the minority. It would become a run away train. So he endeavored to put in place those well defined limits.

Unfortunately, it appears that the anti-federalists may have been right.

Posted by: Rhinehold at April 3, 2014 9:38 PM
Comment #377696

Speak4all,

I’m going to break my rule here and try to explain this to you one last time. Probably a mistake, we’ll see…

There is a difference between opinion and fact. Opinions are the educated (sometimes) views of people and as a result are subject to a lot of outside and personal experiences. Obviously those are things that can be wrong, but some people have more well founded opinions than others. However, there is usually no way to determine how valuable someone’s opinion is if they won’t give you any thought processes on how they arrive to that opinion. That is why people debate, ask questions, try to determine how someone came to their opinion in order to evaluate the value of it.

Facts are something that are despite one’s opinion. They are verifiable and until proven by other verifiable facts are not something that can just be ignored and treated as opinion.

Everyone can be wrong. Everyone can be right. When trying to determine if someone’s opinion is valuable, you have to be able to question them about those opinions to see how they were derived. That is why people ask, “Why do you think that?” and “How did you come to that conclusion?”

Since you’ve been posting on here, you want people to take some sort of value from your opinion, yet are completely unwilling to explain how you come to those conclusions. Kind of like hitting a head against a wall, people have tried to engage with you and have a dialog with you and you have resisted and fought and called names and insulted the whole way.

That leads to our third category, religion. A religious belief is one based on faith. It isn’t a logically thought out position, by definition. Faith is something that one has when they believe something without having the facts or logic on their side, or it wouldn’t be faith. It would be just fact, wouldn’t it?

So, when you say “I believe that x will happen” and when asked why you think that you respond with “it’s my opinion, don’t question me” then one can only come to the conclusion that you are basing your belief on faith, on a political religion.

Further, when you say things like “I don’t think Obama lied” when we have evidence that he did, including him admitting that he did, then that further convinces people that your views aren’t based on any logic or reason, but emotion and faith.

So, no, you are not a ‘true believer’ because you like the president (Hell, I like the president) or because you support him, many people do. But when your REASONS for doing so are based on faith, then yeah that makes you part of a religion.

And no, that doesn’t make you are ‘terrible person’, you are much like many people in the country on both sides of the aisle. But it does mean that trying to have a conversation about your faith is futile because you just fall back on ‘well, it’s just what I believe”. How can anyone debate against an illogical belief system? Illogical meaning that it is not based on logic, it is based on faith. There is no where else to go once that enters the picture. It would be, like I said, trying to discuss the logic behind christianity with the pope.

So, if you want to debate something, to try to convince others of your opinion, you are going to have to start explaining how you come to your opinion. If, on the other hand, you just want to say “Here’s what I think” and be left alone, that’s what we’ll do. We’ll pat you on the head and let you say what you have to say and otherwise ignore you. But it doesn’t appear that you like being ignored based on this thread.

So, what is it you are after? Do you want to preach the word of Obama to the people and have them convert just based on your views and passion? I say good luck, that may happen a bit, lord knows I used to be a preacher many many years ago, so I get that… But please don’t be butthurt if people don’t just accept your opinion as having value without you explaining how you come to have that opinion or be able to back it up with logic and facts…

Or if they just decide to ignore you and treat you like Journalist who posts here occasionally. He doesn’t violate any rules but says the most idiotic things that people who have ventured in to try to discuss things with him have broken their brains, including me. In the link there is his latest comment in a post on the left side where he states that it is a verifiable fact that planes travelling at 450-600 miles an hour could not have been flown into the WTC buildings. That they would have just ‘bumped off’ as it were. Therefore the video, which most of us watched LIVE on tv was all faked and the news media, the government, the people on the scene, etc, etc were all in on it…

Sure I could spend hours debating facts with him, and I have tried to in the past, but he ignores the facts and presents his religion based on faith, because if the facts don’t add up to his belief, then to him they just don’t exist. So the question is, do you want to be that guy? Or do you want to have debate (that you continuously say you want) that will require you to actually defend your beliefs? It can’t be both ways.

Posted by: Rhinehold at April 3, 2014 10:08 PM
Comment #377699

WW
I hope to realize the satisfaction of backing the right candidate, I could be wrong.

Rhinehold
You couldn’t be more wrong. I don’t comment here to convince you of anything. You are beyond that. I comment here for my benefit, if someone finds benefit from either the pro or con of the argument that is for them to decide. You might be better wondering what you get here rather than what I am after.

Posted by: Speak4all at April 4, 2014 11:40 AM
Comment #377700

Yup, I knew I was wasting my time.

Posted by: Rhinehold at April 4, 2014 12:31 PM
Comment #377707
I hope to realize the satisfaction of backing the right candidate, I could be wrong.


Thanks for keeping an open mind, Speak4all. I’m convinced Obama wasn’t and isn’t the man for the job. Too many things are happening that are destroying the constitution and the country. I lay those things on the weak and ineffective leadership of Barrack Obama and his Democratic Party.

Group identity politics is divisive politics. The Democratic party have been practicing divisive politics since the 70’s. Their personal, political gains using that strategy have hurt this country tremendously.

I hope you can come to see this. I hope you could entertain the idea of using many different sources of information to form your opinion and maintain an open mind while doing so. You don’t have to believe what you hear, but if you could listen to both sides and weigh each against the other we might be able to meet in the middle and get to some agreement on issues that matter most to all Americans.

Posted by: Weary Willie at April 4, 2014 11:36 PM
Comment #377720

Read the full article here:

http://reason.com/archives/2013/12/10/health-cares-third-party-spending-trap

Many doctors—myself included— will gladly substantially discount their fees in return for up-front payments from people who pay directly for their health care. Hospitals, ambulatory surgical centers, and urgent care clinics do the same. Why shouldn’t they? They don’t have to pay an army of staff to fill reams of forms and wait weeks to months to collect payment from an insurance company that sometimes is lower than what they get from their direct-pay patients.

Yet most of these same providers have much higher “list prices”—the official prices they list publicly—which are used to negotiate compensation contracts with health insurance companies and other third party payers.

Examples abound of outlandish differences between the publicly posted “list prices” of providers and health care facilities and the “discounted” prices these same providers offer to uninsured patients negotiating on an individualized, “special case” basis. I recently wrote of a patient of mine who saved $17,000 by negotiating to pay directly for his hernia operation rather than using his health insurance. In Oklahoma City, the Surgery Center of Oklahoma takes no Medicare, Medicaid, or private insurance, and provides a range of surgical services to the community for a small fraction of the prices offered by other doctors and facilities that use the conventional third party system. And they list their prices proudly on their website. This and other examples of providers who have opted out of the third party game have been recently documented at Reason.

Contrary to “conventional wisdom,” health insurance—private or otherwise—does not make health care more affordable. The third party payment system is the principal force behind health care price inflation. This should come as no surprise.

Nobel-winning economist Milton Friedman, in his masterpiece “Free to Choose,” wrote of four ways to spend money:

Category I—You spend your money on something for yourself. Here you are very careful, because it is your money, and the good or service you are buying is for you.

Category II—You spend your money on something for someone else. Here you have the same incentive as in Category I to economize, but since you are buying something for someone else, you are not quite as meticulous when it comes to the purchase meeting the needs or values of the recipient.

Category III—You spend someone else’s money on something for yourself. Here you are not concerned about how much you spend, because it is not your money. But because you are spending on yourself, you make sure you are getting what you want.

Category IV—You spend someone else’s money on something for yet another person or persons. (This is what we ask our legislative representatives to do every day.) Here you are the least incentivized to economize, or to buy something that meets the needs or values of the recipient.

Like the government does, third party payers operate under the dynamic outlined in Friedman’s Category IV. This becomes most obvious when it comes to the government acting as third party payer, e.g., Medicare and Medicaid. And it doesn’t just pertain to health care (think of $800 toilet seats for the defense department). When the government buys goods or services for other people with other peoples’ money, special interest pleading, political concerns, and cronyism run the game. And “leakage” of money through “waste, fraud, and abuse” is a given.

But private insurance companies are also spending other peoples’ money—the premiums paid into a risk pool—on medical services for other people. When they negotiate compensation schedules with providers and facilities, they don’t have to bargain hard enough to reach the best price possible. They just have to reach a price that is good enough—one that allows them to charge premiums that compete well with rival insurance companies. They pass on the difference between what they could have negotiated and what they actually negotiated to their customers who pay the premiums.


Policymakers need to understand that the key to “affordable health care” is not to increase the role of health insurance in peoples’ lives, but to diminish it. We need much less Category IV spending on health care, and much more of Category I.

Posted by: Rhinehold at April 6, 2014 2:44 AM
Comment #377759

WW
” I’m convinced Obama wasn’t and isn’t the man for the job.”

Now can you add what I did in my statement to the end of yours? But I could be wrong.

Or are you so heavily invested in the failure of President Obama that you are unable to add that one small comment that really admits nothing more than your possible infallibility and does not compliment anything he does or has done?

Posted by: Speak4all at April 7, 2014 11:59 AM
Comment #377805

WW
Well I am not surprised by your non response. You might consider that you are very partisan, as all I see in your remarks are your opinions of the Democratic party. I would give you the same advice as far as information gathering. You seem to take a tack to the right on everything and dismiss anything else as harmful to your cause. This is your opinion and you are entitled to that however you accusing me of not using other sources is a bit like the pot calling the kettle burnt.

Posted by: Speak4all at April 8, 2014 4:28 PM
Comment #377838

Speak4all, I just started a different job this week and I haven’t had much time. I’m still acclimating to this and haven’t paid much attention to WatchBlog.

To answer your request, Yes, I could be wrong. I’m no inside the beltway political wonk so I’m not “in the know” when it comes to the day to day workings of President Obama.

Having said that, based on what I do hear and what I see others do and say, I’d say I’m not very wrong if I am at all.

Posted by: Weary Willie at April 9, 2014 6:28 PM
Comment #377850

WW
Thanks for the response. I don’t doubt that you have doubts about what President Obama has done and what he will do. I think we all do to a certain extent. We express those doubts differently because we are different.

Good luck with the different job and thanks again.

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