The death of common sense

The mark of even basic intelligence is the ability to make reasonable distinctions. When we enact “zero tolerance” rules, it shows our collective lack of intelligence and our abdication - maybe even dislike - of reasonable judgement. You may recall the 7-year-old who was expelled for chewing his pop-tart into the shape of a pistol and we have all sorts of non-violent offenders in jail for possessing drugs, which harm only themselves and maybe nobody at all. As a society we just need to lighten up. Not everything is a Federal case.

You can see the article about the kid and the jackknife here. The article about the little pop-tart terrorist is here.

The above two should be jokes. It is tragic that they are serious. This article is serious. It describes the overreaction to drug offenses that actually threatens our liberty.

Posted by Christine & John at March 28, 2014 1:00 PM
Comments
Comment #377561

People glorify Hollywood and the violence that comes out of it in the form of entertainment. Yet some chastise a 7 year old for chewing a pop tart into a pistol or putting minor drug offenders in prison. I agree society should lighten up and look at themselves in a mirror. We have more important things to address then to vilify a 7 year old because he chewed his pop tart into a pistol.

Posted by: Rich KAPitan at March 29, 2014 1:59 PM
Comment #377563

I don’t believe “common sense” is actually dead, but somewhat dormant. Common sense is now in the closet and only sees the light of day when one feels they are in safe company.

The politically correct have worked hard to frighten many into willingly curtaining their Constitutional rights. I am a supporting member of the ALLIANCE DEFENDING FREEDOM advocate group. They frequently challenge the ACLU in court and enjoy an impressive win record.

The ADF is an alliance primarily dedicated to defend against attacks on religious freedom and justice. In many of the cases they have defended, I scratch my head and wonder why any defense at all is needed as common sense tells me what is right and wrong.

I recall not long ago a story about the “Teacher of The Year” in California being laid off as she was a more recent hire than her colleagues in the union. Common Sense…hardly.

I read about public employees abusing their retirement plans with loopholes designed to pay them more benefits. Common Sense…hardly, just plain old fashioned greed at the public’s expense.

I read about some on the left declaring that a War on Women is being waged by the right because some employers refuse to adopt medical plans that pay for contraceptives. Common sense? Hardly, when contraceptives are only needed by women of child-bearing age and cost only a few dollars per month. This is War?

I read about states enacting huge tobacco taxes with the claim that we must punish those who engage in a legal activity. Some states have enacted laws, or wish to enact laws, that restrict the number of bullets that may legally be placed in a clip. They claim this will save lives.

Common Sense…hardly.

Posted by: Royal Flush at March 29, 2014 4:12 PM
Comment #377564

I agree, but what it says is not hatred of intelligence but negligence of tolerance.

This whole problem too is that WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT THIS KID IS ACTUALLY LIKE. The poptart may be the least of it—per se. This kid might actually drive you nuts—we do not know.

Posted by: simpleheaded at March 29, 2014 4:15 PM
Comment #377565

“This whole problem too is that WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT THIS KID IS ACTUALLY LIKE. The poptart may be the least of it—per se. This kid might actually drive you nuts—we do not know.”

So, because we don’t know what he is actually like, we should punish him for eating a pop tart in a way that you or someone finds offensive? I saw this kid in an interview when the incident happened and he seemed like a normal little boy to me, however EVEN IF HE DOES “DRIVE YOU NUTS”, he should be punished for actual wrongdoing and not some made up offense.

Posted by: tdobson at March 29, 2014 6:02 PM
Comment #377566

I am not sure that the term common sense can be so easily defined in this modern day. It is evolving increasingly so as a term of convenience by the more politically motivated. What was considered common sense yesterday may not apply today depending on ones personal views. Some things can very easily be associated as common sense matters. Others not as easily as they once were. I would think that given the obvious escalation in mass shootings around the country I might think that perhaps common sense with regard to weapons and children might be evolving into something new. In other words common sense like everything in our lives is subject to change depending on influences and actions that serve to redefine whatever sort of common sense is appropriate at the moment. In other words there are no absolutes where perceptions of common sense are concerned. Common sense says that common sense is relevant only if it is applied with consideration for all surrounding applicable circumstances.

Posted by: RickIL at March 29, 2014 6:19 PM
Comment #377567

Even an idiot won’t touch a hot stove twice…common sense learned the hard way.

Posted by: Royal Flush at March 29, 2014 7:35 PM
Comment #377568

Reguardless of circumstanses, commom sense tells me that a pop tart is not a dangerous weapon in the hands of a little boy no matter how he has shaped it with his teeth.

Posted by: tdobson at March 29, 2014 9:06 PM
Comment #377572

Common sense is lacking here it seems. We are caught up in an arms war as we can see from C&J links. Oh wait they left out the part about kids killing kids with guns purchased by parents, parents arming themselves with all sorts of tactical weapons then complaining about the police doing the same.
Schools tired of being targets enact the same type of zero tolerance policies(on weapons at school)as police use with druggies, conservatives defending the Zimmermans of the world as they establish private zero tolerance policies, and you guys talk common sense as if you had any.
Your right to arm yourself to the teeth carries with it many responsibilities, for starters it means millions of others have the same right to defend themselves from you and your kids. Common sense and conservatives, quite the oxymoron if you ask me.

Posted by: j2t2 at March 29, 2014 10:32 PM
Comment #377573

C&J, yes you are right when you say “When we enact “zero tolerance” rules, it shows our collective lack of intelligence and our abdication - maybe even dislike - of reasonable judgement”. The War on Drugs was the starting point for zero tolerance and mandatory minimum sentencing the next step towards insulting our collective intelligence. This came from the same man that told us government was the problem. Our collective intelligence has been dumbed down by him and his followers for 40 years now, thank you for pointing it out finally.

Posted by: j2t2 at March 29, 2014 10:51 PM
Comment #377574
We are caught up in an arms war as we can see from C&J links.

What arms war are you talking about exactly?

Schools tired of being targets

So, despite the fact that gun violence, including school gun violence, has been decreasing for decades, we need the right to kick kids out of school for making finger pistols and pop-tart guns?

The mind boggles…

http://www.democracynow.org/1998/7/29/school_shootings_on_the_decline

But a new report to be released today says that despite the increased media hype around the issue, school shooting deaths have decreased over the past several years.

The new report comes just two weeks before hearings begin for two Jonesboro, Arkansas boys charged with murder. The Justice Policy Institute, a criminal justice think-tank that issued the study, is concerned that the false perception of increased school killings will lead to counterproductive policies. One Republican politician in Texas responded to the shootings by calling for the death penalty to be applied to children as young as 10 years old. And other politicians are clamoring for measures that are less extreme but almost as dangerous to the well-being of minors: the Governor of Virginia proposed ending after-school programs; Senator Orrin Hatch is advocating a bill that would increase the number of children incarcerated with adults; and President Clinton is calling for increased police surveillance in schools and daytime curfews for kids.

This was the conversation just 15 years ago.

Both parties are over-reacting and engaging in hysterics. That’s the problem with politicing with emotion and not logic and fact.

A recent study though shows the facts, not the hysteria…

  • Mass murderers snap and kill randomly - Mass murderers typically plan their assaults days, weeks, or months in advance. Their motives are most typically revenge, power, loyalty, terror, and profit.
  • Mass shootings are on the rise - According to FBI data, over the past few decades there has been an average of 20 mass shootings a year in the U.S.
  • Violent entertainment, especially video games are causally linked to mass murder - Scientists have not found a causal link between video games and mass murder; violent video gaming may be a symptom and not a cause of the incidents.
  • There are telltale signs that can help us to identify mass murderers before they act - Murderers tend to be male Caucasians with psychological issues, but these characteristics apply to a very large portion of the population.  
  • Widening the availability of mental-health services will allow unstable individuals to get the treatment they need and decrease mass murders - Increasing mental health facilities may not reach those on the fringe who would turn to murder as many see the blame residing in others, not themselves.
  • Enhanced background checks will keep dangerous weapons out of the hands of murderers - A recent examination of 93 mass shootings from 2009 through September 2013, conducted by Mayors Against Illegal Guns (2013), found no indication that any of the assailants were prohibited by federal law from possessing firearms because of mental illness.
  • Having armed guards at schools will protect students from active shooters - 28% of public schools already employ armed security personal regularly; there is no way for armed guards to sufficiently protect every single one of their students in an event of a mass shooting.
Posted by: Rhinehold at March 29, 2014 10:53 PM
Comment #377582
What arms war are you talking about exactly

I was thinking of arms race not arms war Rhinehold, sorry for the confusion. The most recent hysterical race by US citizens to buy “freedom” before Obama takes away our guns, but even before that the hysterical amongst us were racing to get the latest armaments, for fun or were they worried about the other guy or police departments run amok who knows, but facts are facts. To think that the reaction to this would be any less hysterical is indicative of our “collective intelligence” or “common sense”, IMHO, Rhinehold.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/frankminiter/2012/08/23/what-the-left-wont-tell-you-about-the-boom-in-u-s-gun-sales/

So, despite the fact that gun violence, including school gun violence, has been decreasing for decades,

Decreasing or not Rhinehold kids killing kids still happens, what is your acceptable level of school killings? Remember this zero tolerance thing at schools is not new. IMHO it results from the need to do something no matter how hysterical you may think it is.

Posted by: j2t2 at March 30, 2014 10:57 AM
Comment #377586

j2t2

Your question about acceptable levels shows one of the problems for reasonable people. Everyone wants to answer zero. But zero is unattainable.

IMO - we are in a kind of statistical framing trap. Let me take a different risk, flying. We spend an inordinate amount of money to protect our flying public from terrorism. Travel is hampered. Lots of guards and machines are at work. We say, if it stops one death…

This is the statistical problem. If we have millions of people, we will have some deaths. And of course we want to prevent this.

Take an equally statistically valid but different way of looking at it. Consider YOUR chances. If you have a million to one chance of being a victim now, how much are you willing to tolerate in order to reduce you risk to one in two million?

So one frame is, if we don’t do these things at least x number of people will die in total. The other frame is that your chances (or anybody else’s) will be a million to one w/o the measure and 2 million to one with. How concerned are you? The answers would be very different for most people.

I deal with decision like this with some regularity, not in the case of life or death but in how much we might help someone in education. Sometimes people say to me, “if we help one person, isn’t it worth it?” My answer is usually no.

Posted by: CJ at March 30, 2014 8:43 PM
Comment #377588
Decreasing or not Rhinehold kids killing kids still happens, what is your acceptable level of school killings?

You are going to have to define acceptable here, j2t2. In the article that I quoted, it made it clear that there *IS* a way to eliminate all deaths…

While the researchers debunk these myths in their research, they state that only more drastic policy would lead to real solutions:

“Taking a nibble out of the risk of mass murder, however small, would still be a worthy goal for the nation,” the authors stated. “However … eliminating the risk of mass murder would involve extreme steps that we are unable or unwilling to take—abolishing the Second Amendment, achieving full employment, restoring our sense of community, and rounding up anyone who looks or acts at all suspicious. Mass murder just may be a price we must pay for living in a society where personal freedom is so highly valued.”

So yeah, we could eliminate all sorts of things and feel ‘safe’, but the cost would be we wouldn’t be a free country anymore. Think Italy’s facism/totalitarianism or Russia’s communism… In other words, you would have to scrap the Declaration of Independence and Constitution to do it.

We could eliminate all home invasions pretty easily, just install cameras in all rooms of the house and have the police monitor the feeds, so that if anyone attempts a home invasion, we would be able to catch them and put them to work in a gulag. Or we could require all Americans to wear personal recording devices to see if they speak out against the government, are plotting to murder anyone, etc. Nip it in the bud…

At some point, we have to either accept that there is nothing more to do without destroying the freedom and innocent until proven guilty aspects of our society or we just abandoned those parts of our society and live under a totalitarian regime.

Remember this zero tolerance thing at schools is not new.

I know, that is why I quoted something from 15 years ago. Not being new is not the same thing as not being stupid.

IMHO it results from the need to do something no matter how hysterical you may think it is.

No, it’s a need to do something, it’s a desire to feel like we are doing something. Remember, most proposals to do something about gun violence would obviously do nothing about it, even the proponents in congress agree on that. But americans like it when ‘something is done’ because it makes them feel like their concerns are taken into account and action was taken. It doesn’t matter to most that those actions are either ineffective or cause bigger problems, like the no tolerance policies on drugs that have millions of non-violent citizens sitting in jail, not participating in our society and are drains on it instead.

No Tolerence policies just take the ability for people in charge out of the thought process, removes common sense from the situation and absolves people of having to think about things. Just like the above (and hundreds if not thousands of other examples that can be given) where people’s individual lives are potentially ruined, children are given life lessons that will harm them for years and the real issues gets untreated. Let’s be honest, a ‘no tolerance policy’ does not prevent guns from getting into schools, it just means that those doing so have to be smarter than the dumbed down administration who we are telling with these policies that they aren’t capable of making these decisions on their own.

Despite our best efforts, despite all we have done, mass murders are still about the same as they have been for decades. In each mass murder case no one is able to say ‘if we enacted X policy, it would have prevented it’. None. Because sometimes people be cray-cray.

Tell me j2t2, how do we stop any gun shooting from every happening again. If you have the answers, offer them up!

Posted by: Rhinehold at March 30, 2014 9:54 PM
Comment #377589
Sometimes people say to me, “if we help one person, isn’t it worth it?” My answer is usually no.

Yeah, that’s the problem with the difference between emotive reasoning and logical reasoning. The difference between the age of enlightenment and the age of romanticism.

If a program costs 10 billion dollars to implement, and we help *1* child… That means that it cost 10 billion dollars to help that one child. I’m sure that we could have given that child 1 billion and saved 9 and pretty much most of his needs would have been taken care of.

Education is a good example, we are paying more now per pupil for education than ever, but we are getting worse results. So obviously money itself isn’t the issue and suggestions that spending more money, without determining where that money would be spent, how it would be spent and how it would help children becomes a useless, but emotive, argument.

Personally I would rather see us spend more money on those children that WANT to learn and are interested in bettering themselves and spend less on those who just don’t want to. How much money and effort do you spend trying to force education on someone who is quite clearly unwilling to accept it? Let’s find better ways to help them because we are failing them now the way we are dealing with that situation…

Of course, talking benefit/cost analysis, or not buying into the emotive reasoning side of the fence, leads you to being called ‘mean’ and ‘selfish’ because that’s the only tool of the emotive, call names and prey on emotions.

It is quite ironic, IMO, that this gets so much use from the party that supposedly prides itself on being ‘intelligent’ and based on ‘science’. Then they abandon it at a moments notice. I love Bill Nye, but he is so rabidly ‘don’t question me on climate change’ because he’s a scientist that’s its almost scary to watch. When you couple that with his backing of anti-GMO legislation when the ‘science’ tell us with greater certainty than global warming science that GMOs are not dangerous (and have actually saved millions of lives), you have to wonder how he makes that hypocritical decision making? If ‘the science is in’ on global warming, it is even MORE ‘in’ on GMOs… So isn’t Bill Nye a denier?

Posted by: Rhinehold at March 30, 2014 10:03 PM
Comment #377596
Your question about acceptable levels shows one of the problems for reasonable people. Everyone wants to answer zero. But zero is unattainable.

C&J, I would have thought reasonable people wouldn’t have used the “despite the fact that gun violence, including school gun violence, has been decreasing for decades,” logic in the first place. But the real issue here is being side stepped. Zero Tolerance in schools has been going on for years now. It is part and parcel of the “War on Drugs”, the zero tolerance DUI laws, “Obama is gonna take my guns” arms race mentality, the PATRIOT Act, Zimmerman type zero tolerance on kids with hoodies!, and other hysteria including the inane conservative reaction to Obamacare, Muslims and the unfounded “loss of religious freedoms” in this country.

In the article that I quoted, it made it clear that there *IS* a way to eliminate all deaths…

IMHO Rhinehold this kinda proves the study you refer to is flawed. Eliminating all deaths by fascist police action/control seems to forget the police have become a big part of the problem. It also seems to forget the rest of the world.

I know, that is why I quoted something from 15 years ago. Not being new is not the same thing as not being stupid.

I also believe it is part of a bigger hysteria as I have started to describe in this and previous comments. I hate to say it but I think we are kind of agreeing here.

No Tolerence policies just take the ability for people in charge out of the thought process, removes common sense from the situation and absolves people of having to think about things.

Just like mandatory minimum sentencing, of course conservatives tell us it is just we the people making the decision not some liberal judge and we just seem to devolve from there.

Tell me j2t2, how do we stop any gun shooting from every happening again.

Rhinehold is the issue “any shooting ever again” or is it a more realistic how do we make these mass killings unacceptable in this country. I guess you are a bit butt hurt over my last post but the “school gun violence, has been decreasing for decades,” suggests you are ok with a Newtown every 6 years instead of every four years. I know you aren’t but ask yourself this, how many school related killings took place in other countries during the period between the Virginia Tech and Newtown shootings.

I also wonder if other countries have such a fascist police state and are forced to give up fundamental rights to protect their liberties as seems to be the only remedy in this country.

Posted by: j2t2 at March 31, 2014 10:29 AM
Comment #377598
Just like mandatory minimum sentencing

Agreed, mandatory minimums is one of the great injustices we face today.

the “school gun violence, has been decreasing for decades,” suggests you are ok with a Newtown every 6 years instead of every four years.

Pointing out facts doesn’t suggest anything other than what the facts are. When some people say that we have an epidemic or increase in school shootings, when the facts say something else, it is usually to evoke an emotional reaction that they think will shame or drive others to give up some of their freedoms, even though it would have no real effect.

ask yourself this, how many school related killings took place in other countries during the period between the Virginia Tech and Newtown shootings.

Not really sure how relevant this is.

I also wonder if other countries have such a fascist police state and are forced to give up fundamental rights to protect their liberties as seems to be the only remedy in this country.

Pretty much… There aren’t very many countries that actually trust its citizens to defend themselves.

“Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation… Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.” - James Madison

BTW, you also have to take into account the size of the US compared to some other countries. For example, during this period you mention France had one shooting while Texas, a little larger, also had one.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/03/11/school.massacres/index.html

And there are other issues as well which many don’t seem to want to address. Bad things happen. People, especially when younger people who are not fully formed individuals yet are involved. Stress, untreated emotional issues, fame worship, etc. But the issue is how to prevent it. If there are sensible ways to stop them from happening, most people are all ears to hear those suggestions, but none of the suggestions that have been proposed recently would have done anything to stop any of the recent school related tragedies. Enacting solutions that have no real effect on the problem may be a uniquely American pastime and may make people feel ‘good’ about having done something even though it is illogical, right up until the next thing happens.

Remember, the solution for Newton was to ban guns that had nothing to do with the shooting and were only banned because they ‘looked dangerous’, while leaving the exact same guns legal. And banning magazine clips would have just required a planned assault (which we know all of these are) to bring a few extra clips with them…

If you have the solution, please feel free to offer it up, you might win a Nobel…

Posted by: Rhinehold at March 31, 2014 11:17 AM
Comment #377610
When some people say that we have an epidemic or increase in school shootings, when the facts say something else, it is usually to evoke an emotional reaction that they think will shame or drive others to give up some of their freedoms, even though it would have no real effect.

Well if you look back at my comments Rhinehold you will see nothing about an epidemic, I said school staff is tired of being targets. Perhaps you confused the arms war comment I made with this epidemic thing, so when you try to tell me about this decrease in school/mass killings it seems to me you think the problem has been solved. I don’t think so, I think in part it is tied to the issues I have described. Yet no one, yourself included, seems to want to talk about the militarization of the American public they instead want to bemoan the militarization of the police. They want to ignore the fear of Obama and Obamacare, the fear of the black kids with hoodies, the fear of Muslims, The fear of liberal judges, the need to declare “War” on everything that moves and are surprise that schools do the same. Where is the common sense in that?


Remember, the solution for Newton was to ban guns that had nothing to do with the shooting and were only banned because they ‘looked dangerous’, while leaving the exact same guns legal.

Rhinehold, you exaggerate. You mean the exact same guns with modifications made to then to become assault weapons. Kinda like a Chevy Camaro and a Z28 Camaro are the same cars. But it is the mentality that goes with the guns IMHO that is the problem. Just like the police get all revved up with assault weapons and the militarized gear they need to roust druggies, many average Joes (not to mention those with unmedicated mental problems) get revved up and the result is the same, more senseless deaths. Where is the common sense in that? When you have the sweet high powered weapons you just got to use them given half a chance, right? I mean my god you guys defend Zimmerman for stalking and killing a kid going home from the store, where is the common sense in that?

BTW the population of France is more than twice that of Texas so I don’t think your comparison holds much water. The fact that it was an extremist self proclaimed Al Qaeda member killing at a Jewish school in France is telling as well.

As far as liberties many countries are as free as ours, don’t kid yourself. Using the the crutch of liberty to defend the ability to have as many weapons as you need to feel safe seems to me to make us less free and less safe, judging by other countries, funny how that works.

.

Posted by: j2t2 at March 31, 2014 10:37 PM
Comment #377613
I said school staff is tired of being targets

School staff are targets now? Not any more than they have been for decades, j2t2, which is the point. There are many many more professions that are more targeted by guns than teachers, which numbers in the low single digits, or less, every year. Think gas station attendant, postal worker, office worker, bank worker, etc, etc…

when you try to tell me about this decrease in school/mass killings it seems to me you think the problem has been solved.

Solved? No. Solved to the best of our ability? Yes.

no one, yourself included, seems to want to talk about the militarization of the American public they instead want to bemoan the militarization of the police. They want to ignore the fear of Obama and Obamacare, the fear of the black kids with hoodies, the fear of Muslims, The fear of liberal judges, the need to declare “War” on everything that moves and are surprise that schools do the same. Where is the common sense in that?

The American public was always intended to be ‘militarized’, in the fact that they are supposed to be able to defend themselves. Of course, part of the problem is what do you mean by militarized…

“No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government” - Thomas Jefferson

“The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that’s good” - George Washington

“The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed.” - Alexander Hamilton

“Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life and who are willing to consciously work and sacrifice for that freedom.” - John F. Kennedy

There are many many more…

The reason that people are going out and buying guns is that Obama and his administration has signaled the desire to limit their ability to do so. They have tried, on several occasions, to do just that. You seem to want to claim that they aren’t, that they have no intention of doing so, but the facts are the facts.

When the government starts to act increasingly more tyrannical, as this one has, then people are going to feel more compelled to arm themselves. As they should. There is nothing at all wrong with a responsible citizen keeping arms.

“The fear of obama and obamacare” is a hilarious line though, I like that, I’m going to have to remember that one… Not sure why anyone would fear a president that has made it clear he has the right to kill you without due process.

As for the ‘war on’ garbage, I’m the first one to rail against that, or acting upon fear, in any cases. You know quite well that I am against the war on drugs, the war on poverty, the war on terror, etc… I’m against the use of this government in violating people’s rights without using common sense in any regard, like asking a judge for a warrant before copying our communications, listening in on our conversations, tracking our search histories, signature strikes, abolishing of due process, etc. Because it means people aren’t allowed to think, they just act without thinking.

Just like these schools are doing. It is wrong no matter who does it, period.

You mean the exact same guns with modifications made to then to become assault weapons.

No, j2t2, I mean that they resulted in no actual difference to the way the gun works. For example, a folding stock does not take a gun and make it an ‘assault weapon’. It still fires the same, it still operates the same. Or the addition of a pistol grip apparently makes the gun more dangerous. There is no exaggeration here…

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/11/foghorn/media-matters-thinks-cosmetic-differences-matter-for-an-assault-weapons-ban/

That’s right, the proposed modifications were for comfort, not deadliness or accuracy or anything else. If you are trying to kill someone else, you don’t care much about comfort. If you are at a range shooting the gun for enjoyment, comfort is nice to have. The modifications make zero difference to the function (the muzzle speed, the caliber of bullet, the accuracy, etc) of the guns in question. This is not an exaggeration, this is just logic.

Your comparison to the Camaro and the z28 are simply not valid because those changes aren’t cosmetic, they enhance the power train of the z28 to make it more powerful. Those weren’t the kind of modifications that the proposed assault weapons ban detailed.

And everyone who supported the ban of these modifications admit that it would have done NOTHING to stop any recent mass shooting.

When you have the sweet high powered weapons you just got to use them given half a chance, right?

At a gun range, sure. On another person? No. Most people, the ones who aren’t sociopaths, abhor the idea and pray to god that they never have to do that. Believe a veteran here, the thought of actually killing someone is much different than you seem to think it would be for those you are attempting to dehumanize (the gun buyer).

But not wanting to kill someone and not allowing yourself to be killed by someone else are not the same thing. Even the Dalai Lama sees the common sense in that.

“If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun.” - Dalai Lama

This notion of someone getting a gun and then looking for reasons to use it are an invention of the progressive fear of guns mind. It just isn’t real.

I mean my god you guys defend Zimmerman for stalking and killing a kid going home from the store, where is the common sense in that?

Oh dear lord… No one defended Zimmerman for not being a tool who, in his zeal to keep dangerous elements out of his housing addition, followed someone who wasn’t normally there because he was looking into windows of other’s houses. He most likely shouldn’t have been as zealous.

However, following someone, being overly zealous, doesn’t warrant being jumped and beaten… Zimmerman was within his rights of self defense, as the jury rightfully deemed, because he was in fear for his life. He could have shot him and killed him much sooner and without as much bodily harm had he been wanting to do that, so your charge makes no logical common sense.

BTW the population of France is more than twice that of Texas so I don’t think your comparison holds much water. The fact that it was an extremist self proclaimed Al Qaeda member killing at a Jewish school in France is telling as well.

I was talking about size though, not population. So, for population, use Texas and California.

As for the person and why he attacked the school, I don’t think it really matters why, does it? It’s still sociopathic and wrong, whether it is because you are doing so for muslim religious reasons or because you simply disliked jocks or people who made fun of you, or if the people you targeted weren’t, in your opinion, humans worthy of living. It’s all the same.

Posted by: Rhinehold at March 31, 2014 11:36 PM
Comment #377614

I wanted to address this separably because it is such a horrible fallacy that it deserves some special hand holding…

Using the the crutch of liberty to defend the ability to have as many weapons as you need to feel safe seems to me to make us less free and less safe, judging by other countries, funny how that works.

It doesn’t make us less free. We have a much freer society than the UK, France, Germany, etc. I can explain how…

The freedom of speech in the UK is severely curtailed, even after incorporating the European Convention in 1998.

From wikipdia, the list of ‘exceptions’ to the free speech ‘right’.

However there is a broad sweep of exceptions including threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour intending or likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress or cause a breach of the peace (which has been used to prohibit racist speech targeted at individuals),[2][3][4] sending another any article which is indecent or grossly offensive with an intent to cause distress or anxiety (which has been used to prohibit speech of a racist or anti-religious nature),[5][6][7] incitement,[8] incitement to racial hatred,[9] incitement to religious hatred, incitement to terrorism including encouragement of terrorism and dissemination of terrorist publications,[8][10] glorifying terrorism,[11][12] collection or possession of a document or record containing information likely to be of use to a terrorist,[13][14] treason including compassing or imagining the death of the monarch or advocating for the abolition of the monarchy (which cannot be successfully prosecuted),[15][16][17][18][19] sedition,[16] obscenity,[20] indecency including corruption of public morals and outraging public decency,[21] defamation,[22] prior restraint, restrictions on court reporting including names of victims and evidence and prejudicing or interfering with court proceedings,[23][24] prohibition of post-trial interviews with jurors,[24] scandalising the court by criticising or murmuring judges,[24][25] time, manner, and place restrictions,[26] harassment, privileged communications, trade secrets, classified material, copyright, patents, military conduct, and limitations on commercial speech such as advertising.

Just a few stories that come to mind.

—-

A person was sentenced to jail for wearing a t-shirt referencing to slain police women and calling them pigs.

A person was arrested and jailed for preaching on a street.

Munim Abdul had shouted slogans such as ‘burn in hell’ and ‘rapists’ at a parade of British soldiers and was sentenced to jail.

Members of Muslims Against Crusades (‘MAC’) set large plastic poppies on fire during the two minutes silence on Armistice Day in 2010 as well as shouting phrases such as ‘British soldiers burn in hell’. They are currently being prosecuted under section 5 of the Public Order Act.

——

Had the US had those laws, the Westboro Baptist Church would have been in jail, thousands of people would also have joined them for threats against George Bush and how he was burned in effigy, etc. A visual list of those who would have been jailed in the UK:

http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=621

Couple that with the fact that in the UK, if you are charged with libel, you are basically guilty unless you can prove your innocence.

The Internet in the UK has a mandatory filter throughout the country by law.

The list goes on, there are many curtailment of rights in the UK, not the least of which is the inability of a citizen to defend themselves with a gun, despite the criminals having them and using them as they feel necessary (though with an unarmed populace, it usually isn’t that necessary to them).

As for them being safer?

The UK has a violent crime rate that is 3.5 times higher than the US. The murder rate is lower, but it has always been lower, going as far back as 1910. But the murder rate in the US is actually 50% lower than it was in 1910. And if you were to take out the murders because of the drug wars, it would be much lower still. But the violent crime rate is much much higher in the UK than here. And the violent crime rate here is centralized mostly in large metropolitan areas…

Meanwhile, after the gun bans in the UK, their murder rate increased from their lows in 1910.

You can see this data presented here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ooa98FHuaU0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCzCJzTRtPc

Now, that’s just the UK, which is much more free than France and Germany in their protection of rights. And as for safety, 7 of the top 10 dangerous countries in the world are in the UK.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html#ixzz0Z7pjqpJC

We could get into those two countries if you want, but the fallacy that stricter gun laws leads to a safer society, when looking at the actual facts of the situation, is just BS.

Posted by: Rhinehold at April 1, 2014 12:23 AM
Comment #377615

Read the full article here:

http://reason.com/archives/2014/03/31/zero-tolerance-hurts-kids-and-ruins-scho

Zero Tolerance Hurts Kids and Ruins Schools - We need common sense in our schools, not mindless bureaucratic compliance.

Virginia Beach sixth-grader Adrionna Harris took a razor away from a troubled student who was cutting himself and threw it in the trash. When school administrators found out, they gave her a certificate of merit for helping a classmate.

Ha, ha! Of course they didn’t. They gave her a 10-day suspension, with a recommendation that she be expelled. For three or four seconds there, she was in possession of a dangerous object in violation of the school’s zero-tolerance policies.

The only reason administrators found out about the incident was that Adrionna volunteered the information. And the only reason she threw the razor away instead of turning it in was because she didn’t want to violate school policy. As she told WAVY-TV, she didn’t want to “hold it in my hand long enough for it to, like, become an issue. The trash can was right there.”

School officials eventually backed down—after getting slammed by bad publicity—and the young lady returned to school a few days ago. Administrators reportedly are tired of taking heat from the public, the poor dears. (Why do bad things always happen to them?)

Nathan Entingh wasn’t so lucky. The 10-year-old who pointed his finger and said “bang” was suspended for what the Einsteins of the Columbus, Ohio, school system considered a “level 2 look-alike firearm.” After agonizing over that decision for weeks, officials decided that, on reflection, they had been right all along. They upheld the suspension.

Entingh got off lucky compared with Jordan Wiser, who spent 13 days in jail on a felony charge because he drove onto school property with a pocketknife in the trunk of his car. Then there’s Taylor Trostle, a middle-schooler suspended for pointing her finger and saying, “pew, pew.” And Andrew Mikel, a Spotsylvania, Virginia, 14-year-old expelled and charged with assault for blowing pellets through a plastic pen tube. And 7-year-old Josh Welch, of the infamous Pop-Tart gun. And too many other cases to list.

Zero-tolerance policies have been around for a couple of decades. They were launched by the 1994 Gun-Free Schools Act, which required expulsion for bringing a firearm to school. But like diaper rash, they did not remain confined to one area. Soon kids were landing in hot water for bringing to school such deadly objects as a butter knife (King William, Va.) and nail clippers (Escambia, Fla.). They have gotten in trouble for engaging in such threatening behavior as drawing an Army man (Ouachita Parish, La.) and playing cops and robbers (Sayreville, N.J., and elsewhere). And for taking or handing out birth control (Fairfax, Va.), Midol (Pierce County, Wash.), Alka-Seltzer (too many places to name), and even Certs breath mints (Manassas, Va.).

Such stories invariably elicit outrage, and from time to time a district here or there will rethink zero-tolerance policies, or claim to. “Rethinking Zero Tolerance: A Few Schools Are Inching Away from One-Strike Policies,” reported Newsweek back in 2001. A decade later, The Washington Post reported “More Schools Rethinking Zero-Tolerance Discipline Stand.”

They must not be the fastest thinkers. In January 2013, a 5-year-old girl was kicked out of kindergarten for “threatening” to “shoot” classmates with a Hello Kitty soap-bubble gun. But don’t worry—this January, The New York Times confidently informed readers that “schools across the country are rethinking ‘zero tolerance’ discipline policies.”

Posted by: Rhinehold at April 1, 2014 12:48 AM
Comment #377616

I saw a post on facebook that made a lot of sense to me. To papaphrase, it said that my gun isn’t a weapon, it is a tool. I am the weapon.

Posted by: tdobson at April 1, 2014 4:10 AM
Comment #377617
“The fear of obama and obamacare” is a hilarious line though, I like that, I’m going to have to remember that one… Not sure why anyone would fear a president that has made it clear he has the right to kill you without due process.

Laugh now but it is just a part of the hysteria that leads us to the bad decisions that end up as laws. Perhaps you have forgot the accusations about Obama the radical Christian Muslim Terrorist who was gonna confiscate the guns and the conservative assault on Obamacare led by the HoR. But it is just this type of nonsense that…well think back Rhinehold, The Jamaican drug gangs were gonna kill us all back in Reagan’s time so we had to get tough on crime and drugs, now we have cops patrolling the interstates confiscating cash legally, pulling Colorado tags over in Illinois because if you are from Colorado you are carrying drugs.

Posted by: j2t2 at April 1, 2014 7:55 AM
Comment #377618

J2

Yes, hysteria does indeed lead to bad decisions ending up as laws. The hysteria over the uninsured is proof of that. The decision to take away everybody’s freedom of choice, kick millions off their insurance and raise premiums is a bad law.

Obama is a politician on the left and has a history of being for strict gun control. If the far-left keeps controlling the Democratic Party and keeps giving us anti 2nd Amendment politicians, they will continue to be said to be coming for our guns.

The “assault” on the ACA is due to the fact that people do not want or need the law. It’s not about Obama, it’s not about fear and it is not hysteria.

On everything from the 2nd Amendment to Zimmerman, you are arguing from emotion, not common sense. It appears you are allowing your hatred of anything ‘right’ to cloud your ability to reason with anybody who dare holds differing beliefs.

Posted by: kctim at April 1, 2014 9:35 AM
Comment #377619
Perhaps you have forgot the accusations about Obama the radical Christian Muslim Terrorist

There are nutjobs on both sides, they don’t drive the politics no matte how much you want people to think they are. Perhaps you have forgotten the 9/11 truthers which still holds sway in a large percentage of the democrat party?

who was gonna confiscate the guns

And he tried an initial step and failed.

and the conservative assault on Obamacare led by the HoR.

As they have every right to do as the opposing party working against policies that they disagree with. Which in fact the majority of people in this country disagree with.

You seem to be conflating several issues together in order to try to make them seem alike, that’s a bit naughty. The wingnut attacks on Obama as a muslim was ridiculous, but it is nothing similar to opposing a piece of legislation that you and the majority of the population disagree with.

Apparently any opposition to the Administration efforts is ‘whacko’?

Imagining that nonsense is conservative only is a fairy tale.

now we have cops patrolling the interstates confiscating cash legally, pulling Colorado tags over in Illinois because if you are from Colorado you are carrying drugs.

Agreed, but remember that Illinois is a Democratic state. Also remember that the majority of that power came under Clinton with the expansion of asset forfeiture laws to drug offenders and then there is this administration’s push to enforce federal drug laws in states that had legalized medical marijuana. Again, it is an issue that both sides are guilty of, don’t assume for a minute that this administration is working to solve any of those problems, they’ve had 5 years and nothing to show for it except making it worse.

I’m all for getting fear out of our law making, but that goes for both sides, whether it is drugs or guns or anything else…

Posted by: Rhinehold at April 1, 2014 9:49 AM
Comment #377620

It’s a long time from April to November. I expect that the only news we see until November about the PPACA will be similar to the following story with a lot less detrimental stories coming out.

Obamacare Hits A New High

I know the numbers are skewed, just like the last election. Romney’s gonna win in a landslide didn’t do to well did it? Speaking of common sense it would be nice to see some of that applied when discussing improving access to health insurance for more of our citizens. I’m not sure we can get any common sense thought on guns as there is just to much fervor being generated by the NRA.

Posted by: Speak4all at April 1, 2014 10:43 AM
Comment #377622

Speaks

Common sense? A few years ago, it was preached that health care was too expensive, and it was ‘projected’ that 40+ million Americans did not have health insurance. A law was passed knowing that premiums and taxes would rise, and that millions of people would lose their insurance and be forced to join the ‘exchanges.’
Even IF the numbers were correct, there are still 30 or 40 million without health insurance.

The NRA only has around 4 million members, tens of millions of Americans vote in support of the 2nd Amendment.
Common sense says to stop blaming the NRA for the rejection of anti 2nd Amendment liberal policy and to stop equating honest hard working Americans with the mindless thugs.

Posted by: kctim at April 1, 2014 11:37 AM
Comment #377623

kctim
“Even if the numbers are correct, there are still 30 or 40 million without health insurance.”

That could be true and it is definitely something that the PPACA will hopefully change. Once all the rhetoric and crazy talk dies down, more people will be able to realize that they can benefit from the exchanges and use them. I think the timing of this enrollment deadline was a masterful stroke of political acumen (even with the delay). Now that the deadline is over we will see more stories of people realizing the benefits and less hand wringing over the enrollment deadline since it has come and gone. I expect that we will see changes in premiums and enrollment numbers going forward.

“The NRA only has around 4 million members” and a ton of money and political clout. Tens of millions of Americans couldn’t care less about your guns and just try to ignore the fanatical gun enthusiasts cries about “They wanna take my guns away”. They don’t really care about it because that is America, don’t bother me and I won’t bother you is an attitude embraced here. Maybe more can be done to bring them up to speed on why they should care about the proliferation of guns, we shall see.

Posted by: Speak4all at April 1, 2014 11:51 AM
Comment #377626

Speaks

I understand your hope that the ACA will actually work. Heck, I can even understand you dismissing the “crazy talk,” some of which has come true. But how can we have a common sense discussion about improving access to health insurance for more of our citizens, when the planning and results defy any common sense?

“just try to ignore the fanatical gun enthusiasts cries”

In other words, you have no desire to have a common sense discussion on the 2nd Amendment. Just spout fearful meaningless rhetoric, call names and shift blame.

Posted by: kctim at April 1, 2014 1:01 PM
Comment #377628

kctim
We can have a common sense discussion about improving access to health insurance by trying to focus on what works and resolving to improve what did not work. My hope is this will become bipartisan and not divisive. Again we will have to watch what happens and hope our legislators are able to handle the daunting task of working towards conclusions that favor the majority of the citizens they represent.

In other words you like to put words into my keyboard. I know several gun owners, not one of them is what I would describe as a fanatical gun enthusiast however there are those fanatics out there and I’m glad I don’t have to associate with them. Sure, sure I know you like to say I spout fearful meaningless rhetoric, call names and shift blame but the problem is you can’t point to anything like that that I have espoused. My friends who own guns understand that I don’t care if they have guns coming out of their wazoo. But they also know that I have an even more dedicated belief that there are just too many guns in the hands of people that should not have them. How do we decide the best way to approach this? Common sense discussions on that might help. Accusatory claims will not.

Posted by: Speak4all at April 1, 2014 2:22 PM
Comment #377636
On everything from the 2nd Amendment to Zimmerman, you are arguing from emotion, not common sense.

KCtim, both you and Rhinehold miss the point. You guys are defending the hysteria as being rational or common sense, it isn’t it is irrational. Lets start at the beginning, C&J posted about the death of common sense in general and zero tolerance at schools around the country over anything resembling a weapon. The idea is the school administration over reacted to the cake eating kid. That and the militarization of the police force. Those that uphold the law killing sleeping guys because they are fighting the war on drugs.

Now review my comments, and you will see I am saying the school administration and the police are part of a larger problem. The school administration has no choice in the mater as the rules they must administrate by are given to them by people (school board members as well as local and state politicians) protecting their backsides after so many school shootings/mass murders the past 30 years. It is what we want them to do as a group. We have caused this, in part, with our hysteria. It is a result, in part, of conservatives,dems and repubs alike, of the Nixon and Reagan era demanding tougher enforcement of the laws, demanding mandatory minimums to thwart liberal judges, confiscation of drug money, three strike laws and such that leads to school board members thinking zero tolerance is acceptable.

You like to dismiss this as emotion but I say it is you acting from emotion simply because my message points the finger back at conservatives. Instead of using common sense you react with exaggeration, you defend the attitude that led to zero tolerance becoming acceptable in this country.

Not only that kctim, you refuse to see that the militarization of the police, the use of swat teams and tactical weapons is the result of the arms build up in the private sector and a demand that we get tough on crime. Rhinehold down plays this with “they do it to” which I haven’t disputed, and you deny it because it is your assumption I hate it because it comes from the right so therefore you imply it cannot be true (which is an emotional response on your part BTW). But it is.

The point is it is a mindset that comes from the same people who claim to be “fighting for our liberty” and other such BS. I point out the conservatives specifically because they usually cannot comprehend that it wasn’t and isn’t some liberal plot to take over the world, The hysterics I speak of. It’s much easier to point out the zero tolerance of school boards and blame Obama than it is to realize this has been going on for years, Obama was but a little boy in a Muslim school in Indonesia when Reagan told us government is the problem and then set out to prove it.

So lets stop blaming Obama, I mean after all he isn’t insisting we all buy more guns to protect ourselves from kids wearing hoodies, he isn’t stirring up local police telling them to kill the homeless and the mentally ill. Logic dictates that when you guys on the right continue to buy more and more high powered exotic offensive weapons out of far of confiscation and fear of your fellow Americans you will also be paying taxes for the police to have the same.

BTW Why aren’t conservatives out in the street protesting the police violence? Defending the protestors with your second amendment rights?

http://hooligansofheaven.tumblr.com/post/81419369868/satanic-capitalist-published-on-monday

Posted by: j2t2 at April 1, 2014 9:04 PM
Comment #377644

J2

I agree that some people have caused much of this. They have been conditioned to look at government to fix every problem and ‘prevent’ every tragedy. The problem is that on things like drugs, guns and health care, people are more than willing to give up their individual rights to calm their hysteria.

It is strange that you choose to blame government overreach on those who don’t look at government as the answer to everything.

You are wrong about my refusing to see the militarization of our police. As it is the only way to force compliance with government mandates, I am VERY aware of it.
To blame our 2nd Amendment for this is absurd, though. It is all about power and control J2, both on the part of government, and the criminals.

Government needs this power and control because it is constantly growing. People, in their “hysteria” to ensure compliance with their own personal beliefs and fears, are constantly giving government more and more power to control our behavior and lives.
Come on J2, you know you can’t force a preacher to perform a gay marriage, force people to pay for the health care of others, or force them to give up their rights, without a militarized police force.
Common sense, not emotion, tells us that if you give government the power to control our lives in one way, it will use that same power to control it in all ways.

Criminals want that same power and control because of money. Now, you might blame our 2nd Amendment for that but you would be wrong.
The anti rights crowd likes to blame the problem on those who respect the 2nd Amendment. You call us ‘gun nuts,’ tell us we have too many guns, tell us what you think we should be allowed to have. That WE are the reason for ALL of the gun violence. But ask yourself this J2, if all of that is true and WE are the problem, why is the problem concentrated in areas with stricter gun laws and fewer guns? Why is it that the ‘evil people on the right’ who are surrounded by guns, can live in peace, but those with more laws and fewer guns can’t?
Common sense tells you where the real problems lies, J2. Emotion causes you to refuse to accept it.

“So lets stop blaming Obama, I mean after all he isn’t insisting we all buy more guns to protect ourselves from kids wearing hoodies,”

No, he is insisting that responsible people not be allowed to own guns he doesn’t think they should own. His minions are insisting government needs to further infringe on our 2nd Amendment rights to protect us from right-wing white guys.

“he isn’t stirring up local police telling them to kill the homeless and the mentally ill.”

Of course not, but the policies he supports require forced compliance and that can only be accomplished through local law enforcement.

“Logic dictates that when you guys on the right continue to buy more and more high powered exotic offensive weapons”

Logic AND facts dictate that us “guys on the right” are NOT the source of the problem.

“BTW Why aren’t conservatives out in the street protesting the police violence? Defending the protestors with your second amendment rights?”

IMO, it’s probably because the problem seems to be centered in liberal strongholds.

Posted by: kctim at April 2, 2014 11:35 AM
Comment #377645

Actually I was trying to play the moderate in this debate,

I say, open up half a dozen boxes of poptarts, hand ‘em out and tell them to bite ‘em into a shape, then tell ‘em it had better be a frickin’ snowman!!!!!!! I say scare kids—they listen.

Posted by: simpleheaded at April 2, 2014 11:42 AM
Comment #377672
It is strange that you choose to blame government overreach on those who don’t look at government as the answer to everything.

Kctim, they may talk the talk but they don’t walk the walk. They enacted the laws I speak of despite telling us government isn’t the answer. They used government for the answer they wanted, they elected people who told them they would get tough with those liberal judges, go to war on drugs and such. There is no difference between conservatives who tell us they don’t look at government for the answer and those they complain about that they claim expect government to coddle them and do everything for them.

To blame our 2nd Amendment for this is absurd, though.

I don’t blame the 2nd amendment kctim. I am saying the militarization of the people of the country causes the militarization of the police. Those that think the 2nd amendment is a directive to arm themselves with tactical weapons to hunt with or for target sports or to ensure the government won’t come and get them in their sleep should stop and realize that with these weapons available to all the people honest or dishonest, legal or illegal the police aren’t gonna take a knife to a gun fight. Would you? Hell no because you are arming yourself to the teeth, an arms war, an escalation of the tensions that lead us to violence. Yet you deny the police the right to be human and err on the side of caution. To kill first and ask questions later. To arm themselves to the teeth to protect themselves from the people of this country.

Posted by: j2t2 at April 2, 2014 10:07 PM
Comment #377677
Why is it that the ‘evil people on the right’ who are surrounded by guns, can live in peace, but those with more laws and fewer guns can’t?

Don’t kid yourself kctim, this is what I have heard called
willful ignorance. First of all where did I call you evil? Secondly when these peaceful gun toters are protecting their property rights with their second amendment rights by killing kids walking down the street wearing hoodies then calling it “living in peace” is as laughable as it is tragic. You have created quite the illusion for yourself kctim, that is exactly why I have focused my attention on conservatives, they labor under bigger illusions.

No, he is insisting that responsible people not be allowed to own guns he doesn’t think they should own.

As the illusions continue to affect the critical thinking skills of Faux news types. Law enforcement getting illegal weapons and illegal users of said weapons off the street is misconstrued as rogue. This is the type of hysteria I speak of kctim.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/01/12/darrell-issa-obama-administration-waging-a-war-on-guns-with-rogue-atf-sting-operations-video/

Of course not, but the policies he supports require forced compliance and that can only be accomplished through local law enforcement.

Said the bank robber, the rapist, the banksters, about our representative form of government. Perhaps we should have the “would you please, but only if you want to” police at the federal level so the conspiracy theorist won’t feel as if the local police are in direct contact with Obama on a daily basis.

Logic AND facts dictate that us “guys on the right” are NOT the source of the problem.

Denial kctim, the refusal to even consider the possibility that extreme views begets extremism, that we reap what we sow, that the zero tolerance attitude once it is deemed acceptable will pervade the thinking of those in charge. To not be able to see that arming the population will arm the police is denial, kctim. To refuse to see that those on the right are part of the problem is sad, it means the problem will only get worse, IMHO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsL6mKxtOlQ

Posted by: j2t2 at April 3, 2014 10:03 AM
Comment #377680

J2

Government and special interest groups are responsible for todays hysteria and lack of common sense over guns. Not people from the past.
Even if you were right, at least the ‘evil conservatives’ of the past used common sense to enforce their zero tolerance, unlike the liberals do today. They didn’t suspend you for drawing a pot leaf on your notebook, they suspended you for actually having pot. Today, you are suspended for shapes of pop tarts.

“I am saying the militarization of the people of the country causes the militarization of the police.”

Except that the reverse has happened, J2. The police started amassing more firepower in order to fight the quickly growing urban gang violence. Liberals, refusing to blame their liberal paradises, blamed guns instead and started infringing on everybody’s 2nd Amendment rights. The average Joe didn’t like that so he started getting what he could while he could.

It’s pretty much what happens when you force liberal policy on those who don’t want or even need it.

Posted by: kctim at April 3, 2014 11:09 AM
Comment #377687
Government and special interest groups are responsible for todays hysteria and lack of common sense over guns. Not people from the past.

People and events from recent history do play a big part in the zero tolerance policies that are the subject of this thread kctim. After all zero tolerance policies have been around for years. Kinda ironic the man conservatives have turned into a deity was part of the problem. We can’t blame everything on the government or Obama either. School boards react to local parents. IMHO zero tolerance makes life a bit easier for the school administration although I would suspect they feel like their hands are tied, kinda like judges with mandatory minimum sentencing.

Even if you were right, at least the ‘evil conservatives’ of the past used common sense to enforce their zero tolerance, unlike the liberals do today. They didn’t suspend you for drawing a pot leaf on your notebook, they suspended you for actually having pot. Today, you are suspended for shapes of pop tarts.

What makes you think it is the only the liberals of today doing this kctim? Hopefully not because Obama is president. We are living in conservative times my friend. The fact is many conservatives are on school boards today, they have influenced textbooks in Texas and the rest of the country with some of their craziness. Zero Tolerance applies to much more than just weapons in schools kctim.

The average Joe didn’t like that so he started getting what he could while he could.

And how has that worked out were it actually the case? The arms race continues, schools get stricter, police kill more people with bigger weapons and the cycle perpetuates itself. Seems to me the winners are the weapons suppliers.

It’s pretty much what happens when you force liberal policy on those who don’t want or even need it.

Well you certainly have proved my point kctim when I say “To refuse to see that those on the right are part of the problem is sad, it means the problem will only get worse, IMHO.”

Posted by: j2t2 at April 3, 2014 3:34 PM
Comment #377692
And he tried an initial step and failed.

Tried to confiscate guns! Which law was it that he signed or insisted congress pass that did this Rhinehold, I missed it. Are we exaggerating a bit here?

As they have every right to do as the opposing party working against policies that they disagree with.

Rhinehold, in my mind there is a difference between working against policies they disagree with and the 50 attempts in Congress to repeal the ACA, against the myths misinformation half truths and outright lies we have been subjected to the after the bill became law and “working against”. In fact this points out the hysteria I speak of. It is a matter of degrees. It seems today the level of hysterics is higher than ever, it continues to build in the minds of these people despite much of what they are railing against is based upon myths. I have stated at different times I am against Obamacare myself Rhinehold, but I don’t base it upon misinformation half truths or outright lies. I don’t make up issues about it to rail against it.

You seem to be conflating several issues together in order to try to make them seem alike, that’s a bit naughty. The wingnut attacks on Obama as a muslim was ridiculous, but it is nothing similar to opposing a piece of legislation that you and the majority of the population disagree with.

Not naughty at all Rhinehold. Look at the uproar we have seen by conservatives over Obamacare. Even now as Obama supporters enjoy the recent progress made, years after passage, conservatives are attacking it in droves. Isn’t 50 attempts or so to repeal it a tad excessive?

Apparently any opposition to the Administration efforts is ‘whacko’?

It sure seems like it with the likes of Palin, Bachmann and others getting the coverage doesn’t it Rhinehold. When these conservatives are so founded in their “ideology” that they are willing to default the country into bankruptcy it does seem whacko, and yes many of them have gotten a bad reputation because of it. But that doesn’t mean all opposition is whacko Rhinehold. Maybe because of the corporate press we see the whacko’s more than any serious well founded opposition. You know what I think of Fox News, the bull in the china shop of the corporate press and their poor journalism. BTW why are you guys so silent on the 1st amendment rights to a free press.

So it seems to me Rhinehold that common sense would dictate a more even keeled opposition. But it seems we agree that while hysteria is a bit of an exaggeration, intentionally I might add, and accelerated sense of panic that we cannot deal with has us, we the people, near the level of fear and agitation that makes common sense unavailable to us and therefore our leaders.

Posted by: j2t2 at April 3, 2014 6:47 PM
Comment #378136

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