ObamaCare lets people not work - this is horrible

Maybe it is cultural. I grew up believing work was a part of one’s character. You should not simply seek ways to make money, but do some useful work where you could excel. Earlier generations used the term “calling” and for the faithful finding your calling in your work was how you showed faith. It is troubling that this commitment to work is declining. It bothers me when the Obama folks welcome as good news that more than 2 million jobs will be lost because of ObamaCare. It also bothers me that many working men just are not coming back into the labor market after the recession. We are on the road to dependency and poverty.

It is unfashionable to say American is exceptional and indeed every country has its differences. But America has been exceptional in our commitment to work and individual choice. In many - most cultures I have studied - there is a much greater emphasis on leisure. Even our close cultural cousins in Britain are different in this respect. In their industrial age, successful entrepreneurs wanted to become men of leisure. After they made money, they would often try to buy their way into the landed classes. Being in business was not celebrated, but rather seen as a means to get out of the business.

In America, we did not respect idleness. Even the rich were expected to work, or at least do something useful. That is why we hate Paris Hilton. She doesn't do anything useful. But taking her as a case study, there is also an unfortunate fascination with people like that and it is growing.

Our country did exceptionally well because our people have been exceptionally busy. Here I do not mean simply working harder. Nobody works harder than some of those very poor rural worker in Asia, but it gets them nowhere. In America, we have looked for the chance and tried to improve. This required hard work, but also a commitment to be active in our own destiny. One reason those poor hard working suckers in other societies stay poor is that they have a sense of fatalism. Americans believe (or believed) that we are the controllers of our fates.

This idea that ObamaCare gives able-bodied people the option of not working is anathema to me. I was surprised that it could even be aired an an option and a good thing. I can not understand that thinking. It must be a matter of culture.

My culture tells me to be useful, find something you do well and do it well. I do not judge WHAT that is beyond that someone wants you to do it. So if you produce art that I think sucks, but it sells, I respect you. But you should be gainfully employed or doing something actively to better the human condition. Getting lots of free stuff for doing nothing to me is immoral.

Posted by Christine & John at February 5, 2014 7:59 AM
Comments
Comment #376117

“Americans believe (or believed) that we are the controllers of our fates.”

Well, isn’t that concept the very basis of the CBO analysis? Americans will chose the work options that will allow them to obtain health care. It says nothing about Americans willingness to work. It is simply an assumption that health care is a major priority.

The contingencies of the subsidies are the issue. Specifically, discreet cutoffs. This could be easily fixed by employing a more continuous subsidy approach.

Posted by: Rich at February 7, 2014 8:50 AM
Comment #376118

First, these are not jobs being cut. They aren’t even actual jobs, but the equivalent of that in hours worked. And what is actually happening? The job hours are no longer being worked because somebody can now get healthcare without continuing to work them.

So, while you’re raging at Obama for adversely affecting people’s working lives, what the evidence in fact should have you doing is thanking Obama for letting people quit jobs they otherwise wouldn’t continue to work, if they didn’t need them for the healthcare benefit. And since those jobs aren’t actually eliminated when those people leave them, they are open for other people, which helps reduce the unemployment problem.

The problem with your party’s philosophy is that at the of the day, it isn’t about rewarding work, but serving wealth. It isn’t about the state of the real, widespread economy, but about this symbolic game a few people are playing to mostly abstract gains in comfort and luxury. It’s a party that lies and cheats so that people don’t realize that their interests, and the interests of the top one percent aren’t necessarily the same in all cases.

It’s a party that discourages, sometimes even forces people into bad bargaining positions. And that isn’t just an abstract problem, it’s a real problem with real, lasting, and terrible consequences.

You talk about it giving people the option not to work, but that’s an oversimplification. The option, yes, could be not to work, but most people who retire or become disabled go onto Medicare, and thus are ineligible for Obamacare’s benefits. For those who don’t? We could be talking somebody who’s working two jobs, one of which they could be advancing in, if they didn’t have to hang on to the other. We could be talking somebody who is working a job they absolutely hate, one they’d quit to look for a better job if they had the ability to take their healthcare elsewhere.

So on and so forth. Your wall yourself up in a fortification of assumptions, and then get angry about what you assume to be true.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at February 7, 2014 8:58 AM
Comment #376129

Less work means more subsidies. Subsidies are paid for by taxes on other people. Why work for yourself when others are forced to work for your benefit?

Yes, it is a cultural thing, and it is our new normal. Just as living in a fantasy of “could be” scenarios and blaming the evil “one percent” has become.

Posted by: kctim at February 7, 2014 10:51 AM
Comment #376132

The news is worse than portrayed…

America’s current budget deficits have shrunk dramatically over the past few years. But its future deficits are now projected to be bigger than previously expected. When the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) released its updated economic outlook earlier this week, it painted a gloomier picture than it did the previous year. The deficit is now projected to rise by $7.3 trillion over the next decade, a $1 trillion increase since the CBO’s last estimates were published.

That’s not great news. But it’s actually worse than it sounds. As the budget analysts at the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget explain, this actually understates the size of the increase.

That’s because last year’s deficit totals were artificially inflated because of a scoring convention that required the budget office to count $425 billion worth of one-time spending on Hurricane Sandy as a recurring annual expense. That assumption is gone this year, but it means that last year’s 10-year deficit total was actually more like $5.9 trillion.

The projections worsen further if you update the time frame. Last year’s projections looked at the 2014-2023 budget window. This week’s report stretches from 2015-2024. Since annual deficits are now expected to grow at a greater clip, that makes for a bigger change.

Posted by: Rhinehold at February 7, 2014 1:08 PM
Comment #376134

Daugh writes; “We could be talking somebody who’s working two jobs, one of which they could be advancing in, if they didn’t have to hang on to the other. We could be talking somebody who is working a job they absolutely hate, one they’d quit to look for a better job if they had the ability to take their healthcare elsewhere.”

You can imagine all kinds of scenarios to spin the CBO report but it doesn’t change the conclusion. Over 2 million Americans will leave the work force.

Daughty also wrote; “The job hours are no longer being worked because somebody can now get healthcare without continuing to work them.”

Yes…healthcare and… food, clothing, shelter, and many amenities not necessary for survival are now available for those who choose not to work. The left has decided it is worthy not to work and to subsidize that rationale.

A nation that is encouraged and enabled by its government to choose leisure and idleness over work loses it most valuable asset. The work product of an entire nation is reflected in its collective well being and prosperity.

As Lincoln proclaimed, “a house divided against itself cannot stand”; it is also true that a nation that does not work can not long provide for itself. Lincoln cautioned that…” this government cannot endure, permanently half slave and half free. It will become all one thing or all the other.”

Neither can this government endure with only half our able population working. We can not all be riding in the cart with no one left to pull it.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 7, 2014 1:37 PM
Comment #376135

The Great Generation rebuilt America and Europe after WWII. While America was building a military to protect the world from communism, Europe was working for material wealth, with no desire to build a military. The Baby-Boomers continued the work ethic of their parents, building a strong nation and building material wealth. When the time came for Great Generation and the Baby Boomers to retire, after a life of working hard and getting ahead, they retired to a life of leisure. When the x-generation and subsequent generations saw the life of leisure previous generation enjoyed, they wanted the same thing. These young generations ignored the fact that lives were spent working and gaining the wealth. So we have a younger generation who does not want to work, but wants all the benefits of a life of leisure. Along comes the Democrat Party and a black leader, who is fully aware of living off the backs of others, and these promise the younger generation a life of leisure with no work. Hence we have millions of young people looking for free HC, welfare checks, food stamps, SS disability, and anything else that is free. But nothing is free. What the Democrats have done is create a 2 class system in America, comparable to the European 2 class system. The rich and the peasants.

The leftist writers on WB are communists. They have no desire to debate any subjects. They only support the communist agenda. If presented with comments and facts for anyone other than other communists, they personally attack them. There are many black and Hispanic conservatives in America, but these are all viciously attack by the communists on WB.

Posted by: DSP2195 at February 7, 2014 1:46 PM
Comment #376136

Each generation of Americans passed on to their posterity much of value. I inherited a love of country, strong work ethic, knowledge of God, a desire to help those who couldn’t help themselves, a thirst for knowledge, and a strong sense of fair play.

What will this generation pass on to their heirs? We can begin with a $17 Trillion debt and I invite others to add their own thoughts.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 7, 2014 1:50 PM
Comment #376137

You are correct Royal, but the problem is that there is a generation of people who have nothing to pass to their children. The Democratic Party has created several generations of blacks and minorities who have no fathers being held responsible for the bastard children. Daughters, mothers, grandmothers, and great grandmothers live in the same government housing projects, raising their bastard children on welfare checks and foodstamps. Obama has expanded that to cell phones, free cable, free transportation, etc. What do these women pass on to their children? They teach their children you don’t need an education, you don’t need a career, all you need is a Democrat politician to take care of you. Hence Obama supporters claiming Obama will support them of “Obama stash”. The work ethic and morals of the Great Generation and the Baby Boomers was passed to them by working parents. That is impossible today.

Posted by: DSP2195 at February 7, 2014 2:01 PM
Comment #376139

CJ, shame on you for perpetuating your Party’s lie. The report DID NOT SAY 2 million jobs would be lost. Not even close. It said workers may ELECT to work less hours NOW that they have ObamaCare freeing them up to choose other jobs or less hours and overtime as a result of their new found FREEDOM to mobilize in the work environment, no longer tied to a job by its employer provided health care.

Posted by: David R. Remer at February 7, 2014 2:29 PM
Comment #376142

No Remer, CJ is correct and the shame, if any, belongs to you.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 7, 2014 3:01 PM
Comment #376143

And Remer remember “The great and powerful OZ has spoken”!

Posted by: Speak4all at February 7, 2014 3:53 PM
Comment #376144

Speak…if you can’t refute…ridicule. Not very brainy.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 7, 2014 4:11 PM
Comment #376145

This really is a shameful article. The head of the CBO has already clarified, but once a lie starts bouncing around the right wing echo chamber, it won’t stop until the bubble pops.

American workers work longer hours, are more productive, and take less time off than almost any other workers in the world. Despite that statistical FACT, we have conservatives bemoaning the work ethic of the American worker. Why can’t they just immerse themselves in the dignity of work like Ann Romney? Oh wait. Never mind.

Despite working longer hours, more productively, and with less time off than most of the industrial world’s working people, labor has not been rewarded. Wages have remained flat, or even gone down for working people. In the meantime, all the profit generated by working longer, more productively, & with less vacation has gone to… guess who?… That’s right. The 1% that establishment conservatives unwittingly shill for.

Have fun, conservatives. You have about 2 1/2 years before the great wipe out of 2016. And I can’t wait to say ‘good riddance.’

Posted by: phx8 at February 7, 2014 4:11 PM
Comment #376147

Look I gave you the link in the other thread that proves what you are trying to say was debunked by none other than Paul Ryan the last Republican candidate for VP. You refuse to take evidence presented and therefore I ridicule you for your stance.

Posted by: Speak4all at February 7, 2014 4:20 PM
Comment #376148

Paul Ryan’s response to 2.5 million job loss

Posted by: Speak4all at February 7, 2014 4:24 PM
Comment #376149

Have fun, conservatives. You have about 2 1/2 years before the great wipe out of 2016. And I can’t wait to say ‘good riddance.’
Posted by: phx8 at February 7, 2014 4:11 PM

Hmmm…did x8 forget 2014 or may he be fearful of the hide-shredding the left is expected to take?

Poor Speakfortheleft…he has only one source and manages to confuse himself.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 7, 2014 4:40 PM
Comment #376150

There is someone confused here but it is not I. Look in the mirror. So now you are predicting voting outcomes again? As I recall your last foray into this area did not bode well, we all remember that “Romney will win in a landslide” stuff.

Posted by: Speak4all at February 7, 2014 4:45 PM
Comment #376154

Some of our liberal and leftie friends have expressed confidence of the dems retaining power in our federal government. Does this report give you confidence? And, as horrible as this report is, CBO is projecting another 2+ million jobs lost in the next decade.

If one asks a liberal why the jobs report is so bad they will undoubtedly blame R’s and C’s in congress who thwart borrowing money to create jobs. That’s not a plan, that’s insanity on steroids.

“In its monthly jobs report, the government said just 62.8 percent of the 16-and-over population was working or looking for work last month. That’s a nearly 36-year low in the workforce participation rate, and it’s causing some economists to rethink the recovery’s strength.

The problem is that much of the drop in December’s unemployment rate — to 6.7 percent from 7 percent in November — was due to people of all ages, not just retirees, dropping out of the workforce.

Fewer workers drawing paychecks mean more reliance on government and social services and less consumer spending. It means lower tax receipts, fewer sales and less saving.”

Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/2014/01/10/4741071/unemployment-fell-but-so-did-job.html#storylink=cpy

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 7, 2014 5:40 PM
Comment #376156

Look I would like to take the time to explain the non-existent job loss to you again however I am sure that I will get better results explaining it to my fence post at home. Gotta go. Wife wants fresh oysters and a bloody mary and grandchildren need things. It’s the weekend! Good luck to anyone trying to convince Royal about the job thing anyone that tries has my sympathy. Remember he’s a really good soul, I particularly liked his story a long time ago about a Papal guard chasing him down the hall at the Vatican. It could have been bad but as I recall it was humorous. Ask him about it.

Posted by: Speak4all at February 7, 2014 5:48 PM
Comment #376158

I’ve seen ‘spin’ before, but I have Never seen spin such as the ‘Administration’s’ spin on the non-partisan CBO Report.

Any which way you spin it, the conclusions are devastating, IMHO! Btw, I can’t believe that the Amin even floated the illogical spin about the so-called flexibility, choice and freedom working less has on the populace.

When I saw the Press Secretary try to explain-away the adverse effects of this dilemma, I nearly snorted milk out of my nose.

Posted by: Kevin L.Lagola at February 7, 2014 5:59 PM
Comment #376159

Have a great weekend with your family Speak.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 7, 2014 6:33 PM
Comment #376161
Each generation of Americans passed on to their posterity much of value

Royal you inherited well. The question is what have you passed along. Judging from the blathering you have done on this thread defending C&J’s foolish misinformation it seems to me you have passed on myths, misinformation, half truths and outright lies. Remer was right, this is just one more piece of misinformation conservatives have chosen to believe despite all evidence to the contrary. It’s no wonder you guys believe the IRS doing their job was a scandal, or Benghazi, or whatever crap you are fed from the propaganda machine. The shame is on you.

Posted by: j2t2 at February 7, 2014 7:32 PM
Comment #376162

I believe that work is an act of faith. It is something we should do. We should seek to do what we do well and then do it right. It is the moral thing.

Rich
I understand that we are talking values, not facts. I was a little surprised by my reaction. I despise people who could work but choose not to and receive subsidies.

Stephen
Please see above. I think we have a duty to pull our weight. It is not economics; it is values. I don’t want to give able bodied people the option of not working and collecting money from others.
I could have retired almost ten years ago with full pension. It never occurred to me to stop working.

David

Please see above. I understand what is happening. “It said workers may ELECT to work less hours” – I don’t want to give able bodied people the option to elect to work less. You should be able to elect to work less only when you have enough of your own funds not to need direct subsidies from your fellow citizens. I like to pull my own weight and expect others to do so. I am willing to help those who cannot help themselves, but I don’t want to let people who are just looking for a free ride.

Phx8
Please see above to the others. I don’t think we should give people the ability to “elect” not to work if they have to get money from you and me.

Posted by: CJ at February 7, 2014 7:39 PM
Comment #376168

“I understand that we are talking values, not facts.”

Well, C&J, facts matter. In this case, health care is a real issue for people. It is a priority above some abstract drive to work. Better that both sides work to adjust the contingencies aligned with both of those goals.

Posted by: Rich at February 7, 2014 10:33 PM
Comment #376172

Rich

I think we agree on the facts and that they do matter. The fact is that people will be working less and they will be enabled to do this by subsidies they get from tax payers. We all agree that this is true. The Obama folks say outright that this is a good thing. This is a value judgement. I say that it is immoral and slothful. This is my value. I value work and responsibility. I am not sure what the Obama folks value. Maybe you can explain why it is a good thing to encourage working people not to work.

Posted by: CJ at February 8, 2014 9:08 AM
Comment #376197

j2t2 writes; “Royal you inherited well. The question is what have you passed along.”

Thanks for asking.

I have passed along my military service as a very personal contribution to keep America free and safe.

I have passed along a work product spanning over 50 years of providing service and value to my clients and various employers.

I have passed along an example of a loving husband, father and friend.

I have passed along thousands of dollars willingly given to charities for the help of others.

I have passed along comforting words and actions for those suffering from illness and for the survivors of the death of a loved one.

In short j2t2, I have lived as an American proud of my own achievements and self reliance and grateful for the Republic in which I was lucky enough to be born.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 8, 2014 2:22 PM
Comment #376222
I don’t want to give able bodied people the option to elect to work less.

Whatever happened to the freedom to live one’s life as one sees fit? To be honest, your attitude sounds like the one a master has toward his slaves. You have no right to another man’s labor; if you want another man to work, you need to provide him with adequate wages to compensate him for his trouble. It looks like the CBO predicts that compensation will not be high enough to convince these people that working is a better use of their time.

Maybe you can explain why it is a good thing to encourage working people not to work.
My feeling is that many of these people are not able-bodied young people like me, but rather older Americans approaching retirement age. For instance, my father is 63 and he is still working full-time today even though he suffers from Parkinson’s disease. Having to work full-time is definitely having a toll on his health, but there is no other way for him to afford to pay for his healthcare (including treatments for Parkinson’s disease). My father has saved adequate money for his retirement; he just cannot purchase a healthcare plan on the individual market for a reasonable price. However, now that the PPACA is being implemented, my father’s calculus will change quite a bit. There’s a good chance he will retire now and spend his time doing something less stressful. Most likely, he will probably put more time into his volunteer efforts. He currently volunteers as the steward of a parcel of privately owned conservation land and he already spends most of his weekends tutoring and mentoring local high school students. Posted by: Warren Porter at February 9, 2014 5:45 AM
Comment #376233

Warren

“Whatever happened to the freedom to live one’s life as one sees fit?” - you can live as you wish IF you take care of yourself.

RE master and slave - you got it backwards. People like you and I work. We pay for those who don’t. We are supporting them with our labor and thrift. I think the slave comparison is weak, but to the extent it is valid, WE are the ones being enslaved.

I am not asking for the right to another man’s labor and I resent that others think they have the right to mine.

RE volunteering - this is great and it is a basis of American prosperity. But it assumes that you are first taking care of yourself. If someone else is taking care of you, it implies that THEY are the ones paying for the “volunteer” activities.

Posted by: CJ at February 9, 2014 10:52 AM
Comment #376237

Warren believes; “You have no right to another man’s labor; if you want another man to work, you need to provide him with adequate wages to compensate him for his trouble.”

You are absolutely correct that civilized mankind has no “right” to the labor of anyone. The remainder of your sentence is absolutely incorrect.

Labor is a commodity that is traded on the free market to the highest bidder. Would you really want it any other way Warren?

I have never considered wages as compensation for my “trouble”. Whenever I believed my wages were not sufficient compensation for my labor I went to the labor market to determine if it was worth more than I was receiving. Sometimes it was and sometimes not.

The faulty reasoning is that people only work for wages. The faulty reasoning is to refuse work and rely upon others working to provide for me due to my decision. The faulty reasoning is that somebody owes me something that I have not earned. The faulty reasoning is that I value my labor more than the market does.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 9, 2014 11:25 AM
Comment #376238
you can live as you wish IF you take care of yourself.

Then you shouldn’t have no problem with the lost of 2 Million FTEs. Nearly every one of them will be taking care of themselves just as much as you take care of yourself.

RE master and slave - you got it backwards. People like you and I work. We pay for those who don’t. We are supporting them with our labor and thrift. I think the slave comparison is weak, but to the extent it is valid, WE are the ones being enslaved.
I work because I want to work; not because someone is forcing me to support someone else. If employers regret losing their employees because the employees don’t need the employer’s health pan anymore, then the employer should offer an alternative compensation to entice the employee back. Employers do not have a right to an oligopoly on group health insurance. Mistakes were made in the past that granted employers this previlige, but the PPACA corrects those past wrongs and puts us on the path towards a future when people do not receive health insurance from their employers.
RE volunteering - this is great and it is a basis of American prosperity. But it assumes that you are first taking care of yourself. If someone else is taking care of you, it implies that THEY are the ones paying for the “volunteer” activities.
Regarding my father, he has saved plenty for his living expenses while retired and will do a fine job taking care of himself. The only reason he didn’t retire sooner is due to his reliance on his employer’s health insurance benefits. With the PPACA, my father now has more choices to live his life as he chooses rather than how his employer chooses. Posted by: Warren Porter at February 9, 2014 11:33 AM
Comment #376239

RF said: “Labor is a commodity that is traded on the free market to the highest bidder. Would you really want it any other way Warren?”

Good question, and the answer is absolutely YES. Some other way. Specifically, that workers NOT be treated like a hammer or machine, but, as human beings, meaning with empathy, and respect as such, and then treat their work product with the appropriate rewards or rejections as their work product warrants. Treating labor as a commodity alone, leads to but one inescapable reality by many employers, and that is slavery and indentured servitude. Been there and REJECTED on the basis that labor IS NOT JUST A COMMODITY to be traded, bought and sold like coal or oil.

Posted by: David R. Remer at February 9, 2014 11:37 AM
Comment #376241

CJ said, “I am not asking for the right to another man’s labor and I resent that others think they have the right to mine.”

THat is classic spoiled American Republican perspective, completely devoid of the reality that nations fail when too many are deprived of work, opportunity, and respect. USSR failed for some of these reasons, not to mention Mao Tse Dung’s China. A nation survives on the back of all of its people, not just the labor force. A nation which discounts the least of its members will inevitably flirt with revolution, something our forefathers, and modern Chinese leaders, understood as a given. Our women, elderly, and children, not in the labor force, deserve just as much from the society as its workers do, in terms of support, respect, and obligation. There are myriad ways unemployed citizens contribute to their society, and without them democratic processes will fail. But, Republicans fear democratic processes when they are the political minority, which explains a great deal of Republican’s attitudes, actions, and policies.

Posted by: David R. Remer at February 9, 2014 11:47 AM
Comment #376243

Remer is confused. The word “labor” as I used it is collective, not singular. The human providing the labor is not a commodity.

As I understand it, we have a Department of Labor with cabinet level status. We have a Bureau of Labor Statistics as well. We identify the engine of our prosperity as capital wedded with labor. We have labor unions.

He writes; “Specifically, that workers NOT be treated like a hammer or machine, but, as human beings, meaning with empathy, and respect as such, and then treat their work product with the appropriate rewards or rejections as their work product warrants.”

No objection to this statement…but it doesn’t address labor, but rather, labor conditions. Any economist will tell Remer that labor is a commodity.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 9, 2014 12:02 PM
Comment #376244

David

I produce labor that somebody thinks worth paying for. That allows me the freedom to choose many activities that I could not if I had to beg money from others.

I worked to make my skills more useful. As you know, I studied Greek and Latin. I liked those things and was good at them, but nobody wanted to pay me for those skills. That is why I developed skills in math and management, among other things. After many years, I am grateful that society “forced” me to diversify my skills. I am a better person for it. I understand that some people are in the rut that I was and some are just plain lazy. In the former case, I want to help them the way I was helped. In the Latter case, I don’t want to work for them.

RE spoiled perspective - I get paid for 40 hours, but always put in more. I work on my tree farms and do various volunteer work. I pull my weight and much more. I am willing to share with those who need my help and I do. But I think of it like a team. I am working hard, trying to carry the ball to the goal. I don’t want other teammates to lay on the side because they are sick of running.

The U.S. situation is nearly the reverse of the Chinese and others you mention. In those places, the rich were idle and the poor did all the work. In the U.S. the poor tend to work not very much. And you are advocating policies to let them work even less and become dependents.

Beyond that - the tyrannies of the USSR and Mao’s China were based on the idea of social justice. This is an idea that sounds good, but leads to destruction. That is why I fought against world communism and my father fought against its cousin fascism. We prefer freedom. If we lose these fights everybody will suffer.

Warren

I like to work too - mostly. If I was independently wealthy, I would do lots of the same things I do now, but not all. That is why it is work and not fun. I don’t think it is right for me to work so others don’t have to do things they don’t want to do. Let them pull the wagon and not ask me to pull them.

Re your father, with all due respect, evidently your father has enough to pay for the insurance but doesn’t want to. I understand his predicament. There are lots of things I don’t want to pay for. But we do.

Posted by: CJ at February 9, 2014 12:07 PM
Comment #376246

Remer writes; “THat is classic spoiled American Republican perspective, completely devoid of the reality that nations fail when too many are deprived of work, opportunity, and respect…”

Really? Nations fail when too many who are able to work choose not to as they are enabled by government to choose dependency rather than self reliance.

He writes; “A nation survives on the back of all of its people, not just the labor force.”

Pure bullshit in terms of economic survival. No work, no taxes, no government. Give one example of a government surviving without labor.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 9, 2014 12:12 PM
Comment #376254
Labor is a commodity that is traded on the free market to the highest bidder.

I agree absolutely. For these 2 million FTEs, it seems the benefits of increased leisure has “outbid” the compensation currently offered by employers. If the employer wants the employee to return, the amount of compensation offered must be mutually agreeable.

I have never considered wages as compensation for my “trouble”. Whenever I believed my wages were not sufficient compensation for my labor I went to the labor market to determine if it was worth more than I was receiving. Sometimes it was and sometimes not.

Exactly the same sentiment as my own.

The faulty reasoning is that people only work for wages.
I also agree. I have a degree in applied mathematics & statistics, so I could probably make more money in the actuarial or quantitative finance fields. However, I have a passion for learning about the earth’s atmosphere, so I currently work as a meteorological data analyst instead.
The faulty reasoning is to refuse work and rely upon others working to provide for me due to my decision.
We aren’t talking about such scenarios. We are talking about scenarios when people have other sources of wealth/income so they don’t need to work as many hours as they did before. I think this covers most of these 2 million FTEs alongside people who may be right on the cusp of able-bodiment and disability.
vidently your father has enough to pay for the insurance but doesn’t want to.
I don’t think you understand the situation. My father wants to buy insurance on the exchange with HIS MONEY. Not your money, not my money, HIS MONEY; he’s too wealthy for subsidies. This is possible because the PPACA is reducing the cost of coverage for individuals on the private market. However, you craft this rant that anyone who doesn’t work 60 hrs a week until the day they die is a pox on the entire country. Why do you feel entitled to my father’s labor or the labor of the rest of the 2 million FTEs? Posted by: Warren Porter at February 9, 2014 1:41 PM
Comment #376255
Give one example of a government surviving without labor.
The Vatican. Posted by: Warren Porter at February 9, 2014 1:43 PM
Comment #376260

Give one example of a government surviving without labor.

The Vatican. Posted by: Warren Porter at February 9, 2014 1:43 PM

Now Warren…you are an intelligent educated person and you know better than that.

I have visited the Vatican and the streets are clean, the buildings well maintained, and the Swiss Guards magnificent along with many paid and rarely seen security people. Someone keeps the toilets clean and the water running. Someone mans the Vatican post office. You may not call being a priest work, but never the less, it is work.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 9, 2014 2:38 PM
Comment #376262

Do conservatives have no sense of humor?

Nearly everyone who does the actual work within the Vatican are Italian (or Swiss). The salaries for the clergy are funded by private donations, not by taxes on labor. You claimed “No Work, No Taxes, No Government”, yet the Vatican is an odd exception to your dictum.

Posted by: Warren Porter at February 9, 2014 3:02 PM
Comment #376264

RF, why don’t you respond to what I wrote in comment #376254 rather than my obtuse jokes?

Posted by: Warren Porter at February 9, 2014 3:10 PM
Comment #376284

CJ, you benefit unappreciatedly from the work of millions of others, some are even volunteers. Our country survives on the work, charity, and government that people work within. You, however, don’t directly pay each and everyone of those person’s salaries. It is called a society. Some of those who will be able to work less now that they have health care, may do volunteer work, or better, provide their children with more supervision and better upbringing. All good things for YOU and ME, since we are beneficiaries of living in this society for better or worse. I prefer better, and those who work too many hours for health care who will now be able to work less, is a benefit to our society and YOU and ME, whether we appreciate it or not. What we don’t want are strikes, civil unrest, and millions waking every morning with hostility as their impetus to rise. Achieving a living wage and insurance against forces beyond our control, alleviate some of that potential assault on our society from within.

Posted by: David R. Remer at February 10, 2014 1:47 PM
Comment #376290

Remer wrote; “I prefer better, and those who work too many hours for health care who will now be able to work less, is a benefit to our society and YOU and ME, whether we appreciate it or not.”

I can not place my finger on anything in our founding documents that even remotely suggests that government should intervene when people “work to many hours” to afford ANYTHING.

Is Remer suggesting that government intervene when people “work too many hours” to afford food, clothing, education, housing, etc.? Who decides how many hours are “too many hours”? Does government decide or the individual wishing to work fewer hours at the expense of another American?

Can Remer perceive any similarity with socialism and his position?

Some few, all lefties I would imagine, will somehow use the “Welfare” clause in our founding documents to justify this and just about anything else that takes by force from one American to give to another.

Perhaps we need another large government entitlement program funded by payroll taxes that would allow those who feel burdened by work to simply stop.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 10, 2014 3:52 PM
Comment #376291

For the left, obamacare has assumed almost God-like benefits. We are told it will reduce our deficit and debt, provide more and better health care, help make our nation moral again, and now; allow our citizens to choose leisure over work. Perhaps my liberal friends can add some additional benefits.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 10, 2014 3:58 PM
Comment #376351

It seems to me that the Republican sense of America’s work ethic is one that challenges it any time Americans try to come up for air to ask for time off.

People aren’t machines. They wear out, physically and psychologically. Until recently, I had to work extra hours to compensate for days my workplace was closed. That meant the holidays meant I had to work much more before I got to have that day off, just to get paid the same. Now that I work full time, I actually can relax and work as normal. I can’t tell you what a relief that is.

We’re not a lazy people. The fact that Republicans constantly use rhetoric that appeals to the moral indignation at laziness is not accidental. Unfortunately, Republicans have gotten so caught up in their own rhetoric, so blind to the rest of the world, that they treat any rebellion against having to work longer hours or forgo compensation for overtime as a market of moral failure.

But the reality of human physical and psychological limits remains. I tell you what: time off is the oil in the gears of that productivity. Like a car run too long without an oil change, a worker who is kept busy for too long will break down, physically and mentally, and productivity will be lost for that.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at February 11, 2014 2:51 PM
Comment #376356

Daughrty, give it a rest. Are you the first working person ever to recognize that rest from work is essential? Hardly!

Government edicts from a tyrannical leader are something else entirely.

Posted by: Royal Flush at February 11, 2014 3:44 PM
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