Why not fund some things if we cannot fund all things?

I learned in negotiations 101 that it is usually a bad idea to push to one, single point. Better build trust and momentum by resolving other issues. This is what Congress should do. Clearly, all sides have definite goals, valid reasons and legitimate authority to press them. Nobody is 100% right or wrong. You have to respect the other side and understand their legitimate desires. Congress and the President should study again basic negotiations and get at it.

There are things more urgent than others and these are often things that everybody agrees are good things. Why not fund veterans benefits and cancer research, keep the national parks open and do all those things we all agree government can and should do?

Here is one answer by Harry Reid about why he won't fund cancer treatment for kids. I won't speak for the the leader of the Senate. Let him speak for himself.

There have been 17 government shutdowns since 1976 and we have always negotiated our way out of them w/o causing any lasting damage. We did it before and we can do it again.

If Congress would actually pass a budget on time, it would not need to pass a CR, clean or otherwise. We should not be w/o a budget. It makes it hard to know what to cut and what to fund when there is no basis besides what we had just before.

In a good negotiation, neither side gets all that they want, but in a good negotiation both sides can feel like they have won something. The great Ronald Reagan said, 'I'd rather get 80% of what I want than go over the cliff with my flag flying.'

Despite all their disagreements, I bet we can get majorities to agree on more than 80%. We should move on this instead of just demonizing the other side. Start by passing something easy and get the ball rolling.

Posted by Christine & John at October 4, 2013 6:29 PM
Comments
Comment #372015

21 Of the Best Comments Posted By Frustrated Americans on the Official Obamacare Facebook Page


Read more at http://freedomoutpost.com/2013/10/21-best-comments-posted-frustrated-americans-official-obamacare-facebook-page/#cRw5bKdKLQ0bxhK6.99

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 4, 2013 7:40 PM
Comment #372016

What I learned in negotiations 101 is that when an opponent makes an extortionist demand, reject the demand outright and refuse to negotiate any further.

Obama and the Democrats would be fools to participate in an extortion scheme. The extortionist needs to be exposed for what he is.

Posted by: Rich at October 4, 2013 7:42 PM
Comment #372017

What would King Solomon of Biblical fame do to solve this impasse?

I have suggested a few times that the house should pass a clean bill with the exception that obamacare only be funded when the president lifts all the executive delays and exemptions he has instituted to mollify his cronies.

I read today that Judicial Watch has instituted such a legal action to force the prez to do just that.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/judicial-watch-files-suit-on-behalf-of-dr-larry-kawa-of-kawa-orthodontics-against-obama-treasury-irs-to-overturn-delay-of-obamacare-employer-mandate/

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 4, 2013 7:48 PM
Comment #372019

Rich

Fund things we all want. Fund veterans care; fund national parks, cancer research.

President Obama will have to postpone the individual mandate anyway because the systems designed to let people sign up are not ready for prime time. After a few other things are funded, he can make this face-saving “concession.

Posted by: CJ at October 4, 2013 7:59 PM
Comment #372020
Clearly, all sides have definite goals, valid reasons and legitimate authority to press them.

Oh no they don’t …. if the tea baggers in Congress did have valid reasons they would not have been telling the American people Obamacare lies for so many years.


It is really this simple C&J, Boehner simply needs to put the CR to a vote without all the BS these baggers are trying to add to the mix. It passes or it doesn’t. That simple.

BTW do you remember when conservatives were big on one bill one subject? Now they defend the despicable tea baggers in their desperate attempt to control the majority will of the people. The tea party caucus is the tyranny of the minority.

Posted by: j2t2 at October 4, 2013 8:06 PM
Comment #372021

C&J,

Only a fool would agree to such a plan.

Republicans got a lot in the proposed CR. They should feel satisfied. But, their Tea Party wing had to go to extremes. Attempting to defund Obamacare by taking the entire government hostage is a bridge too far.

My sister and brother in-law didn’t vote for Omama but they even think that this stunt is absurd. “We may not agree with it but it is the law of the land.” A dangerous and reckless move by the Tea Party.

Posted by: Rich at October 4, 2013 8:15 PM
Comment #372022

j2t2

Congress is supposed to pass appropriations for particular programs. A CR is merely a stopgap measure after they have failed to do what they were supposed to do.

Why not fund programs we all consider important. To use the terms liberals love, why not protect, women, children, blacks and other oppressed groups by passing things like children’s cancer research, veterans benefits, parks, even things like head start funding?

It is likely that all reasonable people can agree that these are good things. You may hate Tea Party activist, but surely you and they would agree that saving the lives of kids with cancer is a good thing.

Posted by: CJ at October 4, 2013 8:18 PM
Comment #372023

Rich

I agree that we should just let ObamaCare go. It really won’t work. But that said, I think it would be good to fund veterans, cancer research, parks etc until such time as the President and Congress can agree on the rest.

Posted by: CJ at October 4, 2013 8:22 PM
Comment #372025
I think it would be good to fund veterans, cancer research, parks etc

And what about NOAA, the EPA, the IRS, etc? We really shouldn’t be picking and choosing to only fund the agencies with greatest visibility or public clout.

Posted by: Warren Porter at October 4, 2013 9:11 PM
Comment #372026

Warren

Let’s think about NOAA, EPA etc.

We should indeed be picking and choosing which are the highest priorities.

Posted by: CJ at October 4, 2013 9:17 PM
Comment #372028

Can I burn down your house?

No.

Can I burn down just the second floor?

No.

How about the garage?

No.

Can I use a time delay device so it burns it down later?

No.

Can we talk about what I can burn down?

No.

Sheesh. Why won’t you negotiate?

(paraphrase of a tweet)

Posted by: phx8 at October 4, 2013 9:32 PM
Comment #372029

The Democrats tried what amounts to a legislative trick today to end the shutdown with a continuing CR. The Republicans refused, including the 21
GOP House members that previously indicated they would vote for a clean CR. The Democrats will try another gimmick, a discharge petition, to end the shutdown 10/14 with a continuing CR. Once again, it will only take 18 Republicans in the House to pass the Continuing Resolution and end the shutdown.

Neither side will obtain any advantage from a clean CR. Funding will be at athe conservative level per sequestration that was under consideration before the shutdown. No one gains any advantage from all this. No one loses.

The problem for the GOP is that the shutdown will be for nought. They abrogated their basic responsibility to govern, instead choosing to shut down the government unless their political agenda was implemented, an agenda decisively defeated in 2012.

There is nothing to negotiate. Pass a clean CR. It is very simple.

Posted by: phx8 at October 4, 2013 9:41 PM
Comment #372031

phx8

It is the nature of intelligence to be able to make reasonable distinctions and the nature of decision making and leadership to set reasonable priorities, lest they abrogate their responsibility to govern.

All or nothing propositions play well in the movies, but they work rarely in real life and almost never in politics where you will be back to play again another day.

The president AND congress are being unreasonable. Both should find common ground.

Posted by: CJ at October 4, 2013 10:16 PM
Comment #372032

You may hate Tea Party activist,

C&J, I don’t hate anyone. My general opinion of conservatives is they are usually well meaning well intentioned people. They just are very gullible.

but surely you and they would agree that saving the lives of kids with cancer is a good thing.

Sure C&J who would argue. The kids could be saved simply by passing the CR not holding the country hostage. I find it touching that conservatives and the tea baggers in Congress want to save the lives of kids with cancer whilst starving the poor kids who need WIC programs to survive. Why are you guys willing to lets those kids starve whilst saving the other kids?

Posted by: j2t2 at October 4, 2013 10:39 PM
Comment #372033

CJ,
The House Republicans made a bad choice. It is not up to the Democrats to bail them out. The House Republicans are responsible for shutting down the government. They thought they could demand an exorbitant price for keeping the government open. That was unacceptable behavior. They made a bad choice. By shutting down the government, the GOP abrogated its basic and fundamental obligation to govern.

I know it does not feel this way right now, but eventually, should the GOP (or whatever opposition party exists) become the majority, they will appreciate what the Democrats have done. The American legislative process cannot function when a minority does loses seats in the Senate and House, loses the Executive Branch rather badly, then threatens the well-being of the country unless its losing agenda is enacted.

Like I said in another thread. “Make good choices.”

Shutting down the government is a very bad choice.

The crowning irony is that the shutdown was intended to destroy health care reform, yet the reform is proceeding anyway in spite of the shutdown. The biggest problem with the PPACA right now is that the sites are crashing because of huge response. Too many people want the reformed health care insurance! It is rapidly becoming nearly impossible for the GOP to justify what they are doing, and they know it.

Posted by: phx8 at October 4, 2013 10:40 PM
Comment #372034

j2t2

Hate is an interesting thing. You don’t hate them, but you have never said a good thing about them, think that everything they do is bad and won’t even call them by any but a pejorative name.

Re passing a CR - the normal procedure is to pass appropriations. There are currently about a dozen. You pass a CR when you cannot (or will not) pass appropriations. If we can pass appropriations, it is better than a CR. A CR simply says that there is no leadership in Congress or the president capable of anything but kicking the can down the road. Are you so happy with how things are now that you simply want to extend it?

phx8

Re changing ObamaCare - President Obama has already done that five times and he really doesn’t have the legitimate right to do that. The Congress is supposed to do that. Ironically, when Congress tries to do the job, Obama shuts it down.

Posted by: CJ at October 4, 2013 11:10 PM
Comment #372035

CJ,
Improvement of Obamacare was never the goal for conservatives. NEVER. They tried to REPEAL it 41 times, and failed.

By the way, Senate Republicans have turned their backs on Senator Cruz. Multiple sources confirm that McConnell, McCain, and the normally restrained Kelly Ayotte (R-NH) went after Cruz during a Senate GOP conference. Cruz has no end game. Apparently Cruz believed that if the GOP shut down the government, the Senate would repeal Obamacare, and Obama would sign the repeal in exchange for ending the shutdown.

Senators do not want to lose their job in the next election because of the foolish actions of one of their colleagues.

What I keep coming back to is this: What was Cruz thinking? What were Republicans thinking? Were they really so deeply embedded in a conservative echo chamber that they believed their own echoes? That is the only explanation I can come up with. Cruz and Lee and the Tea Party Republicans really believed the stories they told each other inside their bubble… Obama is weak… Americans do not want Obamacare… If we shut down the government, Americans will side with us… The Senate Democrats will vote to repeal in exchange for stopping a shutdown… Obama will sign it…

Really, it is just astounding. It is such a profound miscalculation, such a gross misapprehension of facts, such a fundamental failure to accurately assess reality. Well, that bubble is about to burst, and it is going to be a very, very loud pop.

The longer the GOP waits, the worse it will be for them.

I just hope they don’t destroy the economy with a default. I don’t think they will. But then, I never thought they would do something as stupid as shutting down the government either.

Posted by: phx8 at October 4, 2013 11:36 PM
Comment #372036
Hate is an interesting thing. You don’t hate them, but you have never said a good thing about them, think that everything they do is bad and won’t even call them by any but a pejorative name.

Conservative isn’t a pejorative name C&J, IMHO. Now the Teabaggers in Congress that is a different story, but yet I still don’t waste the energy to hate them. Hate is way to strong, I do dislike them, but hate, nope.

C&J, what is all this prattle about the CR, For crying out loud it was what was on the table and the government is shutdown. Now yo want a full budget resolution! Seriously?

BTW what about them poor kids on WIC? Surely with such a deep regard for the cancer stricken kids you would want the WIC kids to eat right? Hey wait a minute are you guys on the right just being disingenuous about the cancer kids? How low is that? Is there no depth to which you guys wouldn’t stoop?

Posted by: j2t2 at October 4, 2013 11:40 PM
Comment #372038

phx8

You keep on bringing up Cruz. I don’t care. I know little about him and care less. He seems a lot like Obama in that he does not want to negotiate or look for solutions. My point in this post is exactly the opposite. I think compromise is possible and desirable and have suggested areas of mutual benefit where we can all move forward.

J2t2

“Teabagger” is the pejorative term that you usually use, followed by descriptions of how stupid, evil and bigoted they are. If you really believe what you write about the Tea Party, we would conclude that a reasonable person would hate.

Re CR - We have had CRs many times. They are not a solution. I am advocating that we ask Congress to work toward a more sustainable solution, where many people on both sides agree.

I advocate we start with the easy ones. We can fund national parks, cancer research, veterans affairs etc. I bet most people could agree on most things and that is the way to find solutions.

Extremists on both sides don’t want to compromise. Their goal is to make things so terrible for the American people that the other side is forced to go down in humiliating defeat.

As a reasonable person and a member of the American people affected by the silliness, I want solutions, not stopgaps. I resent that extremists on both sides are willing to sacrifice our interests to their political goals. About a year ago, Obama promised this would not happen. That is one reason he was reelected. So get that guy on the ball.

Yes, Obama, Cruz, Reid and all others who will not meaningfully engage should all change their ways.

Posted by: CJ at October 5, 2013 7:10 AM
Comment #372044

C&J, The term teabagger is generally reserved for those that don’t have my respect and are members of the Tea Party and/or the tea party caucus in Congress. I’ve lost respect for Cruz, Lee and Rand. Hence I use the term teabagger to identify them as I have done in the previous comments on this thread. Losing respect for the person and hating the same person is two different things, my friend. Were I to hate, IMHO, they win so I never waste the energy to hate. What is it you say C&J, Nuance.

SO C&J moving on, it seems you are asking your extremist to start negotiations now on an almost line item budget, whilst the government is shut down. The same extremist who cannot negotiate because it is all principle they stand on. These extremist have proven unwilling and unable to do anything constructive in the past when it comes to negotiations. Why should anyone think it would be different now.

They are standing with their pants down, embarrassing themselves and the rest of the republicans, caught in the act of bullying the repub leadership and the dem in Congress and you are asking the rest of us to forget what we see. These extremist have not earned a seat at the table C&J, when it comes to the pick and choose game they now insist upon playing. Pass a clean CR and then lets talk about the rest.

It is time for the repubs to take the whipping from the public, admit they fell victim to the fear tactics of their “extremist” and start down the road to recovery.

Posted by: j2t2 at October 5, 2013 10:42 AM
Comment #372045

j2t2

I have generally found that using such names does nothing except make you look silly and hateful. I have learned to avoid that sort of thing. When I catch myself doing it, I stop. I suggest you take control of your emotions and learn from the example.

Re extremists - I have little confidence in extremists changing. But I think that reasonable people can bypass them.

Speaking again as a reasonable man with lots of experience getting people to agree, you have to give the other side a way out. Cornered creatures fight to the end and it hurt everybody. Indeed, Republican leadership is fighting its right wing. I know it is good politics to make sure they keep on fighting, but it is not good for the country. It would be wise for Democrats to work with some Republicans. Better presidents have been able to do that. Obama should learn from their examples.

I am more patriotic than partisan. It saddens me to see that this has become a minority position.

Posted by: CJ at October 5, 2013 11:07 AM
Comment #372046

The House voted 407-0 to pay Federal workers. That means lots of Democrats have voted for this. If it can get through Harry Reid’s Senate, maybe we are on the way.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/congress/congress-likely-to-give-federal-workers-their-back-pay-at-end-of-shutdown-now-in-day-5/2013/10/05/1e6fa11e-2d96-11e3-b141-298f46539716_story.html?hpid=z1

Posted by: CJ at October 5, 2013 11:19 AM
Comment #372047
I have generally found that using such names does nothing except make you look silly and hateful. I have learned to avoid that sort of thing. When I catch myself doing it, I stop. I suggest you take control of your emotions and learn from the example.

Perhaps you are right C&J. The Tea Party leadership has lost my respect. To visualize them as “teabaggers” brings a smile rather than a frown to my face. To think they originated the term and now despise it also brings a chuckle now and again. So I will refrain from using the term to identify movement followers but reserve the right to use it when referring to the Tea Party Caucus in Congress and the Tea Party leadership itself. This appears to be inline with many commentators here on WB that use pejoratives to identify Obama and Dems in Congress. Is this a fair compromise?

you have to give the other side a way out.Cornered creatures fight to the end and it hurt everybody.

The extremist have a way out but refuse to budge. They insist upon something, but are not deserving of anything. They have used myth and misinformation, half truths and outright lies as they attempted to force their will upon others. They need to be soundly thrashed and put into their place. By the repubs themselves. The way out for them is to admit their wrongs and use this defeat as a lesson.

Indeed, Republican leadership is fighting its right wing. I know it is good politics to make sure they keep on fighting, but it is not good for the country.

Good for them, it is well past time. The damage to the country from these extremist will heal. But it is the repubs themselves that must stop the fighting, blaming the dens for not giving in isn’t the answer.

It would be wise for Democrats to work with some Republicans. Better presidents have been able to do that. Obama should learn from their examples.

Taking undue and cheap shots at the president isn’t the answer either C&J. Blaming Obama and Reid for doing the right thing won’t solve the real problem. That being said it seems to me Obama has worked with the moderate repubs by toeing the line against the extremist. That took courage from Obama. The moderate repubs were living in fear and as Yoda says “Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.”

Giving in to the demands of the extremist will only embolden them. Lets get government running again. Then it will be time to come to the table with reasonable people and demands. Afterall Obama has shown himself to be willing to negotiate in the past, willing to compromise and willing to work with repub leadership. They took that as weakness and are now paying the price.

Posted by: j2t2 at October 5, 2013 1:40 PM
Comment #372048

j2t2

But not everyone is an extremist and even extremists can sometimes come around.

I tell a story that in Iraq I ate meals and joked with men who I believe would have tried and maybe did try to kill me a short time before. It sounds implausible, but it is true and not uncommon in world history. Certainly in politics things change rapidly. The beauty of our system is that you don’t have to agree with people on everything to work with them on some things.

Re Tea Party - given the way Congressional districts are drawn, the chances that the House will change hands next year is very slim. The Tea Party guys are maybe the most secure, since they represent districts that like that sort of thing. If you set the Tea Party and the others fighting, it is likely you get more Tea Party folks in 2014.

Re blaming Obama and Reid - the President and the leader of the Senate surely share blame. Beyond that, they have been doing their best to create more trouble. They have not behaved like LBJ, Reagan, Clinton or even GW Bush would have done in similar situations.

I also am not sure that this is a win for Democrats if they can prolong the pain. The shutdowns worked okay for Bill Clinton, but did not result in significant Democratic gains. In fact, in the subsequent elections Democrats won only two seats in the House and lots two in the Senate. Beyond that, Barack Obama is no Bill Clinton. I am not sure it is wise for Democrats to throw the dice. The odds are not clearly in their favor.

It is better for America is we can get things moving and, as I wrote above, the best way to do that is to get moving and stop the politics of hatred.

Posted by: CJ at October 5, 2013 2:11 PM
Comment #372051

Someone writing above hit the nail on the head by describing democrat positions as “face-saving”.

Conservative positions are, as liberals are quick to point out, based more upon principles. And, they seem to wish that conservatives were more interested in face-saving like them.

I find it mystifying that the dems don’t lose face when they are forced to give corporations, members of congress and unions exceptions and delays in obamacare enforcement and yet…will lose face if the whole bill is postponed a year.

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 5, 2013 4:14 PM
Comment #372057

And how do you categorize the principle of shutting down the government and furloughing 800,000 people in order to prevent uninsured people from having health care coverage?

Posted by: phx8 at October 5, 2013 5:07 PM
Comment #372059

Address what I wrote phx8, and then I will address what you wrote…deal?

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 5, 2013 5:30 PM
Comment #372063

RF,
See my comments in the most recent thread, including the quote from the WaPo Fact-Check. There is a one year delay that affects the very small number of corporations with over 50 employees that do not already offer health care benefits. Some organizations offer a kind of mini-benefit plan which can be given a one year exemption, but must be renewed annually. I do not see why this involves any loss of face for Democrats.

Posted by: phx8 at October 5, 2013 5:48 PM
Comment #372066

I do not see why this involves any loss of face for Democrats.
Posted by: phx8 at October 5, 2013 5:48 PM

Simple…for us peons, no exemptions are allowed.

You asked…”And how do you categorize the principle of shutting down the government and furloughing 800,000 people in order to prevent uninsured people from having health care coverage?”

The government isn’t “shutdown”.

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 5, 2013 6:41 PM
Comment #372073
Simple…for us peons, no exemptions are allowed.

SO Royal you agree with shutting down the government because of this? After 40 + attempts to repeal the ACA this is the reasoning you guys use to justify the actions of the teabaggers in Congress? You insist that the CR be stopped and the ACA defunded because of this one issue? Seriously! Why are not you guys not madder than hell at the teabaggers in Congress that have attempted to repeal and then defund the ACA instead of providing legislation to fix the problem?

It just rings hollow Royal. You guys are pathetic in your sad defense of these teabaggers in Congress.

Posted by: j2t2 at October 5, 2013 10:52 PM
Comment #372078

Nuff said: http://p.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/3/pruden-the-cheap-tricks-of-the-game/#ixzz2gtno1TPd

Posted by: Political Hostage at October 6, 2013 12:25 AM
Comment #372088

j2t2 writes; “SO Royal you agree with shutting down the government because of this?”

Not at all j2. Neither party is shutting down the government, it is still open. Neither party will compromise so there is no budget or budget approval.

I want the House to offer a bill to fund the entire government, including obamacare, if the prez and dems agree to immediately enforce all the provisions of obamacare as written in the law with no exemptions or delays for anyone. When obama obeys the law the congress should fund it.

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 6, 2013 12:28 PM
Comment #372093

RF,

So you are now a supporter of the employer mandate?

Posted by: Warren Porter at October 6, 2013 6:10 PM
Comment #372116

Your leaders are morons. You really think we’ll piecemeal these things, so you get less flack for being obstructionist jackasses? No. You get full “credit” for this. It’s time for you to learn there are things that come first, and your politics aren’t among them.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 7, 2013 1:09 PM
Comment #372131

Am I reading this correct…the briefest comment Stephen Daugherty has ever made…but it tells us of his mental condition. Stephen is very angry that he and Obama have not gotten their way. “Morons”, “obstructionists”, “jackasses”; Pray tell us Stephen, what part of the Republican’s plan is unconstitutional? Other than your feelings are hurt.

Posted by: P at October 7, 2013 6:51 PM
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