Security or Liberty... you can't have both.

It is truly a sad state of affairs when 56% of the US population thinks that Government is right to spy and store data on all our communications (without our knowledge or consent) in a now-stated effort to prevent terrorism. The problem is this thing called the Constitution.

Poll Data Here

The 4th Amendment:
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

I don't know that a more clear violation than this collection of data could be stated.

The fact that a Pew poll now shows over half of the country values their security more than their privacy (and liberty) reminds me of a Ben Franklin quote I heard a long time ago that stuck with me:

"He who would trade liberty for security deserves neither."

Indeed.

The veracity of the poll notwithstanding, it is very interesting to note the MASSIVE swing in Democrat opinion who have gone from -24 net disapproval under Bush to +30 under Obama. That is over 60 percent against to 60 percent in favor in a few short years. Most conservatives here on WB have noted the lemming march of the left to Obama's flute, that Obama and his administration can do no wrong, either by the left's assumption that his motives are pure and the communist cause just, or by blind allegience.

It is heartening to remember many years ago when WB first got started Convervatives had the clarity of thought to loudly disagree with many things done by GWB, but you see none such clarity from the blue posters you read most often here. Only justifications and rationalizations and denial.

So I ask you: Would you rather see the bad guys get away with a few more attempts at terror and believe the government is not always listening and collecting everything you do or say, or would you rather forego that intrusion in the hope that less bad guys get away with their attempts to do us harm?

It's pretty clear I stand with Franklin on this one. What say you?

Posted by Yukon Jake at June 11, 2013 4:04 PM
Comments
Comment #367218

AMEN!!!!

Posted by: JWL at June 11, 2013 4:51 PM
Comment #367221

One of my favorite conservative writers is Thomas Sowell. He wrote an article published May 28th called “The Bullying Pulpit”. Here’s just an excerpt…

“We have truly entered the world of “Alice in Wonderland” when the CEO of a company (Apple) that pays $16 million a day in taxes is hauled up before a Congressional subcommittee to be denounced on nationwide television for not paying more.”

“The real danger to us all is when government not only exercises the powers that we have voted to give it, but exercises additional powers that we have never voted to give it. That is when “public servants” become public masters. That is when government itself has stepped over the line.”

In another article Sowell wrote titled: “Taxing The Poor” he outlines that inflation is just a hidden tax.

“One of the biggest, and one of the oldest taxes is inflation. Governments have stolen their people’s resources this way, not just for centuries, but for thousands of years.

If you put $1,000 in your piggy bank in 1960 and took it out to spend in 2000, you would discover that your money had, over time, lost 80 percent of its value. A 1960 dollar was worth 20 cents in 2000.

Despite all the political rhetoric today about how nobody’s taxes will be raised, except for “the rich,” inflation transfers a percentage of everybody’s wealth to a government that expands the money supply. Moreover, inflation takes the same percentage from the poorest person in the country as it does from the richest.”

The left is fond of saying that inflation is low right now. I would ask, in the next 40 years will the dollar lose another 80 percent of its value?

Posted by: Royal Flush at June 11, 2013 6:36 PM
Comment #367227

Royal,
I love reading Sowell as well. Good ol’ salient Sowell.

Since the inception of the Federal Reserve Banking system, the dollar has lost 98 percent of its purchasing power. 80% of what’s left is just one percent of a 1913 dollar. The leftists could care less… not that there’s a snowball’s chance in hell that the dollar will exist in its current form in even five years, much less 40. September should be interesting.

That said, quit hijacking my first thread. :-)

I don’t even have to ask whether you agree or disagree with Franklin on his little axiom, and bully for you.

Posted by: Yukon Jake at June 11, 2013 8:56 PM
Comment #367228

Yukon Jake said:

“Since the inception of the Federal Reserve Banking system, the dollar has lost 98 percent of its purchasing power. 80% of what’s left is just one percent of a 1913 dollar. The leftists could care less… not that there’s a snowball’s chance in hell that the dollar will exist in its current form in even five years, much less 40. September should be interesting.”

Good point Yukon, but here is Stephen Daugherty’s Comment #367211 to you from the green column.

“Yukon Jake…

As for gold and silver? For all the trust you put in them, their value is largely as imaginary and born of people’s trust as any paper money out there.”

One again we see the ignorance of Stephen Daugherty, who loves to hear himself speak, but has no idea what he is talking about. Perhaps Daugherty could tell us what $10 worth of gold from 1913 would be worth today?

Or perhaps Daugherty thinks it has no worth other than it is shiny.

Posted by: DSP2195 at June 11, 2013 9:12 PM
Comment #367229

Yukon Jake,
As far as the basic thrust of your article goes, I agree. At this point I’m not sure how realistic it may be, but I would like to see the AUMF and applicable parts of the Patriot Act revoked.

The comparison of opposition to Bush does not really work. The Bush administration was engaged in wiretapping (2005) and pushed the idea of a strong “unitary executive,” especially in signing statements, which subordinated the entire Executive Branch to the President, as well as the Judicial and Legislative branches.

The current program in the news began under Bush (2007), but has only gone on steroids in the past few years due to advances in data mining. It does not involve wiretapping.
A secret court, the FISA court, issued a secret interpretation of the Patriot Act. Requests to access the mined data go through the court in secret before any content is viewed, and members of Congress secretly provide oversight of the program.

The problem, of course, is that all of this is taking place in secret, in the name of national security.

One benefit is that rulings on law by the FISA court will change to become matters for the public domain. At least that’s something.

Posted by: phx8 at June 11, 2013 11:39 PM
Comment #367231

Is it any wonder to you, is it a coincidence, that the Federal Reserve was created, the 16th amendment was ratified, and the 17th amendment was ratified, all in the same year?

No! It was no coincidence! It was an overthrow of our constitution!

All three of these destructive pieces of legislation should be done away with!

End the Fed!
Repeal the Income Tax and End the IRS!
Return the States to their rightful place as equal partners with our Federal government!

Posted by: Weary Willie at June 12, 2013 4:50 AM
Comment #367232

DSP2195-
If you were on a Deserted Island, which would you take with you, 1) a pound of gold and a pound of silver, or 2)a pound of food and a pound of water?

You say, oh, but when the end comes, they will have value!

What value? What establishes how much, say, a gold coin will buy? Who mints that coin, makes sure its pure?

That’s part of the point of the invention of coinage. The government put a stamp on its gold coinage in order to say, this is worth what you think it’s worth.

The question is not what ten dollars worth of Gold from 1913 would be worth today, it’s what that same amount would be worth if you had no government, no markets to define that value in any way.

I’m not ignorant. You’re just too ignorant yourself to understand I’m right. In truth, when we were on the Gold standard, we were constantly having trouble with depressions and recessions, because in essence all trade transactions had to be backed in gold, which would be transferred over to the people we were paying. If we had some sort of trade imbalance, we would end up literally short of money, and assets would deflate as business slowed down.

The thing about tying something to Gold is that Gold, in many ways, is no less symbolic than anything else. In the end, it’s just a token we use for the sake of interchangeability, so people who do work for a corporation or a small business can turn around, and convert that work they did into the food, the utilities, the necessary services that they need.

You know, I find it funny that you need to bring me up before I even have a chance to comment. I find it even funnier that you always declare me ignorant, allege that I’m stupid. If you were really the smarter, more knowledgeable man, you’d be able to do that primarily through the argument.

As for the real subject of this article?

As usual, it’s evil and horrible during a Democratic Party President’s administration, just as it was good and necessary under a Republican’s Administration. My advice? What you don’t want under your political rivals, you should deny yourselves. The problem for Republicans is that they’ve denied themselves very, very little. They haven’t asked the question of what happens when the filibuster gets turned on them, what happens when the huge apparatus for information gathering they thought was good and necessary when Bush was building it gets turned on them.

The rule of law means that you have to live with the rules you set for others. I find it funny that many of the same people who fear Sharia want to see Christian Dominion in America’s political system. If they only denied themselves that power, and interpreted the first amendment prohibition on establishment of religion strictly, they’d never have to worry. There would be no competition to worry about losing.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at June 12, 2013 9:01 AM
Comment #367233

Love ‘em or hate ‘em, this guy Snowden has yet to “leak” anything that would jeapordize national security. To say that the NSA, CIA or any other agency is trying to monitor all forms of communications of terrorists is about as news worthy as James Rosen saying that North Korea would test missles if the UN imposed addtional sanctions. DUH!!!! North Korea has been doing that sort of thing for 30 years, and we have been trying to collect intelligence about terrorists just as long. Snowden may yet reveal information that would indeed pose a threat to national security and human life, but as far as I can tell, that hasn’t happened yet.

IMO, the only secret that has been let out of the bag is that the 4th amendment is dead. The executive and legislative branches of our gov’t have apparently engaged in widespread violations of our 4th amendment rights. It does not matter why they have done this, only that it has been done. If it is the gov’t position that security should trump the 4th amendment then an honest gov’t would seek to amend the constitution and alter or diminish the 4th amendment. Instead, our beloved elected assholes pass back door legislation that doesn’t get challenged in court because no-one knows of its existence. So out gov’t now feels they have the authority to watch everything that everyone does and use that power to indimidate, harrass, and silence those they disagree with. Doesn’t this sound familiar????? Anyone remember the KGB? It seems to me we are on that path and that about half the country seems okay with it. IMO, I beleive that anyone that thinks the gov’t will exercise self restraint and never use all this data to control and manipulate the general population is a fool. There are really no examples of gov’t restraint to point to. Gov’t always seeks to increase its power and protect itself from the very laws it imposes of the people. Welcome to the USS of A.

Posted by: JWL at June 12, 2013 9:28 AM
Comment #367236

WW, no repealing can be done until we limit the influence of money in politics. The only way to do that is thru a new 3rd party with a few rules designed to shunt the money influence.

Otherwise - - -

Posted by: Roy Ellis at June 12, 2013 10:53 AM
Comment #367242

Well Stephen, let’s back up and look at your complete statement to Yuko Jake regarding gold:

“As for gold and silver? For all the trust you put in them, their value is largely as imaginary and born of people’s trust as any paper money out there. They became valuable because they are pretty. Problem is, there’s very little of them. You could fit all the gold mined in the world under the Eiffel Tower. You know what happened whenever we got short of Gold? Deflation. The money supply was never as stable as people like you have convinced yourself it was, in fact it was less stable in practice.

Gold and Silver are hedges. That’s why their value has dropped. Folks buy Gold on the way up, sell it on the way down.”

Then you come back at me with this dumbass comment:

“DSP2195-
If you were on a Deserted Island, which would you take with you, 1) a pound of gold and a pound of silver, or 2)a pound of food and a pound of water?”

Was anyone talking about food, water, or a deserted island? NO!!!

“You say, oh, but when the end comes, they will have value!

What value? What establishes how much, say, a gold coin will buy? Who mints that coin, makes sure its pure?

That’s part of the point of the invention of coinage. The government put a stamp on its gold coinage in order to say, this is worth what you think it’s worth.”

BS talk, blah, blah, blah…doen’s have anything to do with topic.

“The question is not what ten dollars worth of Gold from 1913 would be worth today, it’s what that same amount would be worth if you had no government, no markets to define that value in any way.”

The question IS what would $10 worth of gold in 1913, buy today. Because I asked the question, but you are too stupid to understand, therefore unable to answer the question.

“I’m not ignorant. You’re just too ignorant yourself to understand I’m right. In truth, when we were on the Gold standard, we were constantly having trouble with depressions and recessions, because in essence all trade transactions had to be backed in gold, which would be transferred over to the people we were paying. If we had some sort of trade imbalance, we would end up literally short of money, and assets would deflate as business slowed down.”

Yes Stephen, you are ignorant; no one asked any questions about the gold standard, recessions, depressions; the simple question was “what would 410 worth of gold in 1913, buy today?” But you want to blather on, talking about nothing, with the attempt to make yourself look smart. The rest of your comments are not worth mentioning.

Then Stephen goes on to talk about the subject of the article:

“As for the real subject of this article?

As usual, it’s evil and horrible during a Democratic Party President’s administration, just as it was good and necessary under a Republican’s Administration. My advice? What you don’t want under your political rivals, you should deny yourselves. The problem for Republicans is that they’ve denied themselves very, very little. They haven’t asked the question of what happens when the filibuster gets turned on them, what happens when the huge apparatus for information gathering they thought was good and necessary when Bush was building it gets turned on them.

The rule of law means that you have to live with the rules you set for others. I find it funny that many of the same people who fear Sharia want to see Christian Dominion in America’s political system. If they only denied themselves that power, and interpreted the first amendment prohibition on establishment of religion strictly, they’d never have to worry. There would be no competition to worry about losing.”

Stephen goes on to blame Bush for all the ills of Obama’s presidency. Perhaps Stephen is too ignorant to understand that America’s political system (the Constitution) was based upon Judeo-Christian principles of morality and not upon Sharia law?

But Stephen’s BS blather does nothing to deal with the subject of the post; which is the Democrats (Obama)violation of American’s 4th Amendment rights.

Posted by: DSP2195 at June 12, 2013 3:14 PM
Comment #367243

Stephen,
I have to laugh when you assert ridiculous notions and then say we who differ are simply “too ignorant to understand you are right.” As briefly as I can, I will elucidate your delusions.

Anyone who would bring a pound of gold to a desert island is a fool. No one asserted that doing so makes sense so stating it makes you sound like an idiot. You who always speak of the shades of gray and complexity of a situation try and distill currency down to a desert island. ROFL. No one (no smart one) has to choose between the two right now. What is coming isn’t Armageddon and the zombie apocalypse (I hope) merely a government and economy that is largely run by a massively powerful banking cartel who is STEALING from we the people, who (once they have utterly debased the dollar) will throw up their hands and proclaim, “We have to return to sound money.” Why do you think the bankers, world nations and the rich elite are stacking precious metals at RECORD rates? Do you think it is because they are worried about what to eat when the great reset comes? No. It is because Gold (your token) is the rarest commodity that can’t be forged (easily). And there will have to be SOME basis for currency when that day comes. To deny this is lunacy in the face of overwhelming evidence.

The stamp on the coin. Coins were not minted to say “this is worth what you think it’s worth” learn some numismatics. Coins were minted for two reasons 1) to establish money as real and not fake, no value was put on coins until recent history and 2) To pay homage to the monarch, and reinforce his role and (in the case of Caesar) his divinity. (aka propaganda).

You blame the recessions in our history prior to the abolishment of the Gold standard ON the gold standard. BWAHAHAHAHA, AND then have the audacity to say we are too ignorant to understand you are right. Nations and trade partners didn’t take delivery of the gold during transactions, they took the dollars, or certificates of deposit, because those certificates WERE BACKED BY GOLD. It is a complete farce that a nations economy cannot grow larger than its warehouse of gold reserves. You need to start doing more thoughtful research than “Yahoo! Answers.” Fractional banking wasn’t invented when we departed from the gold standard, and having fiat money that held value because a rare and unprintable “token” was represented by each piece of paper, didn’t limit growth of the economy. If you were to return to a Gold Standard and then abolish fractional banking, THEN and only then, would you potentially cap GDP, but again, no one is suggesting that. It is this Keynesian nonsense that printing money out of thin air forever has manageable consequences that you need to unlearn.

The filibuster. How easily you forget the colossal abuse of the filibuster under GWB. It was the Democrats who took this tack and now, because you believe conservatives are wrong and are therefore stupid, you expect us dumb hicks to misremember how recent history went down.

Lastly, more of your myopic ignorance; comparing Sharia Law to Christian Law simply because there is a deity involved is as solid a comparison as the whole desert island to currency one that made me almost shoot coffee through my nose as I read it. Sharia law is mysoginist, violent, masochistic, and unbelievably intolerant. Christian and natural Law is what gave us this nation and the constitution. OUR SOCIETAL LAW was based on the ten commandments.

Stop hijacking the thread. Would you rather have less liberty to obtain security, or more risk and more liberty?
It’s a simple question…

Posted by: Yukon Jake at June 12, 2013 3:19 PM
Comment #367244

I would accept risk for more liberty. Liberty breeds innovation. How can you build a better mouse trap if there is a law stating how the mouse trap should be built?

You can’t. You need liberty to be innovative. Yes, it is risky to build a mouse trap that is different. You may catch your little pooch instead. But recognizing the possibility of unintended consequences while taking risk should be the responsibility of the risk taker.

Personal liberty needs personal responsibility to make it work. Maybe that’s why government thinks it must “take care” of the people. Because people have had the responsibility and innovation and liberty legislated out of them.

Posted by: Weary Willie at June 12, 2013 4:01 PM
Comment #367245

Re/hijacking the thread; most of the liberals on WB have crawled back under the rocks from which they came; with no answers to the great violation of freedoms in America… with the exception of Stephen Daugherty. He refuses to deal with the issues; but would rather try to change the subject…thus trying to save some image of being intelligent. Stephen is a talker, he goes on and on like some pseudo-scholar college professor trying to dominate the conversation with his own topics. Sorry Stephen, you are in the Red Column and the subject is the Obama administrations violation of American’s rights. The subject is the multiple Obama scandals.

Posted by: CasperWY at June 12, 2013 4:32 PM
Comment #367246

That said, quit hijacking my first thread. :-)

I don’t even have to ask whether you agree or disagree with Franklin on his little axiom, and bully for you.
Posted by: Yukon Jake at June 11, 2013 8:56 PM

Sorry for the hijack Yukon. I find it unbelievable that anyone would trade liberty for supposed security at the hand of government. Isn’t it government that is attempting to take our means of security from us?

Government was given the mandate to secure our liberties…not take them away.

Posted by: Royal Flush at June 12, 2013 4:34 PM
Comment #367249

Speaking of violations of our individual liberty, there is also the liberty of freedom from government stealing wealth from us. We have a congress who votes on our tax code. But who votes to steal our wealth by inflation?

The vast majority of Americans have no idea that government is picking their pocket with deficit spending of trillions of dollars.

The “War on Poverty” is doomed to fail as long as government keeps stealing the wealth of every American through government planned inflation.

As for Doughboy’s assessment of gold…he is simply too mired in liberal theology to understand the value of “precious metals”.

I am old enough to remember “silver certificates”. Paper money actually backed by silver. I saved a few of them, and wish I had a bushel of them. And then the day came when our government could no longer even back our money with silver. All that’s left is a government promise which is about as reliable as Doughboy voting for a conservative.

Posted by: Royal Flush at June 12, 2013 4:56 PM
Comment #367250

There are things that can be believed on the Internet, and there are things that cannot be believed. However this story seems to be true and if it is, it is another in a long list of Obama scandals that violate our rights.

There has been a lawsuit filed against the IRS on behalf of up to 60 million Americans, whose medical records were taken by the IRS. The IRS agents were armed when entering the Ins. Co and demanded the records siting they had a warrant. The warrant was never shown. First of all, why would the IRS want the medical records of 60 million Americans, why were the agents armed, and why wasn’t the warrant shown. From my understanding; the lawyers from the IRS (or any government agency) would contact the lawyers of the Ins. Co. and the exchange would be made:

“A Malibu, Calif., based attorney, Robert E. Barnes, has filed a class-action suit against the IRS alleging that 15 agents stole the medical records of 10 million people in a raid on a storage facility called “John Doe Company” just weeks ago, according to Courthouse News.

The action alleges that the information on private citizens that was taken was their most intimate medical records, including psychological, obstetric and gynecological, sexual and drug treatment documentation, and other medical treatment.

It alleges that the agents stole more than 60 million records that violate the privacy of more than a million Californians and a total of more than 10 million Americans.”

http://www.wnd.com/2013/05/irs-sued-theft-of-medical-records-charged/

It is never ending and I have to consider Stephen Daugherty an absolute fool to believe this is all happening by chance; that Obama and his employees know nothing about it.

Posted by: CasperWY at June 12, 2013 5:14 PM
Comment #367251

One thing to remember is that our Commander-in-Chief, our president, our evader of truth, our narcissist head of state, said while he ran for president in 2008 that he wanted to “transform America”.
So despite what we think about his wisdom, knowledge, or whether he is ignorant or stupid, he is accomplishing what he said he would do and that is to “transform America”.
The blame is on those who allow this to happen. It is blamed on those who voted for people who share the plan to “transform America”, and there are plenty of traitors to do that. We do not need “transformed”. We need revitalized. We need renewed. We need resolve to accomplish it.

SD
“If you were on a Deserted Island, which would you take with you, 1) a pound of gold and a pound of silver, or 2)a pound of food and a pound of water?”
A pound of food and water might get you thru a week. So what is your point?
In reality paper or precious metal? Gimme me da metal. Paper has no value vs. precious metals.
Here is some simplicity for ya.
To buy a gallon of milk it generally would take three one dollar bills or there abouts. To use an amount of precious metal to purchase the same product is so small that it would be measured in “traces” and you would have whatever amount of the original measure in a sizeable amount. The precious metals would far outperform paper.
I prefer precious metals when the market allows me to make the right decision. I have never sold any precious metals. I will hold onto my metals as long as I can.

Posted by: tom humes at June 12, 2013 7:15 PM
Comment #367252

Tom Humes; if you bought a gallon of milk with traces of precious metal today; by the end of Obama’s presidency you would be able to buy 4 gals of milk for the same traces of precious metal. In the same time period, with the paper money, you would be able to buy traces of milk.

If Stephen Daugherty was on a deserted island and all he took was his laptop, he could type his BS all he wanted and we would never have to read it, because he wouldn’t have access to the internet. But he would still consider himself to be a legend in his own mind.

Posted by: DSP2195 at June 12, 2013 8:03 PM
Comment #367253

According to Glenn Beck; he will be releasing information within the next 24 hours that could bring down our government:

http://www.examiner.com/article/glenn-beck-plans-to-break-damaging-political-news-within-a-day

I don’t know if it’s true; but I do know there are things happening in America that are unbelievable. I have a feeling that Americans, left or right, are going to have to make decisions shortly.

People are blowing the whistle on Obama’s regime; Obama is using the IRS, NAS, and the DOJ to go after Americans. CIA Deputy Director Michael Morell announced his retirement today and I told my wife, something is up. Then I read that John Brennan is purging political dissidents in the CIA:

http://www.examiner.com/article/brennan-s-cia-purging-political-dissidents-purged-cia-agent-speaks-out

Let’s add to that the huge amounts (millions of rounds of hollow points) of ammunition being bought up by the DHS. Or the DHS’s cancelling of orders today for riot gear after it was reported on Drudge on Monday.

I’m sorry, but I think it’s time to worry. I believe we are witnessing a coupd’état:

http://www.teaparty.org/rush-limbaugh-america-in-the-midst-of-a-coup-detat-25145/

Posted by: Frank at June 12, 2013 10:04 PM
Comment #367254

Don’t worry Frank. We are just setting up for the ping-pong from Dem to Rep. Happens every 4 - 8 years. Get rid of that bad ole party for that grand new party, etc.

Otherwise - - -

Posted by: Roy Ellis at June 12, 2013 10:42 PM
Comment #367255

Sounds like John Brennan has learned from Wild Bill Donovan and the OSS.

Let us start with the alphabet
Axlerod
Brennan
Clapper
Ellison
Frank

back to my hockey game

Posted by: tom humes at June 12, 2013 11:52 PM
Comment #367256

If this is a coup d’état, it is the most bipartisan coup d’état I’ve ever seen. Both Republicans & Democrats, conservatives and liberals have participated in carrying out the NSA programs.

A recent poll of young people (18 - 24) by a Republican organization found that when asked to name the leaders of the Democratic Party, young people named politicians such as Obama, the Clintons, Pelosi, and Reid. When asked to name the Republican leaders, they named Limbaugh, Beck, and Hannity. I’d say that spells trouble for the GOP.

As for the IRS, there is a good reason Issa now refuses to release the full transcripts of his hearing. It seems the hearing revealed that a conservative Republican at the IRS came up with the idea of targeting the Tea Party and others, and that it had nothing whatsoever to do with Washington DC or the Obama administration.

Whoops.

And now the CIA is full of “political dissidents” who are about to be purged. Well, knock me over with a feather. The CIA is full of “dissidents”! But if ever there was a hotbed of political dissidents agitating and fomenting unrest within the Obama administration, it was obviously the CIA. It’s just the kind of place that attracts dissidents, I guess.

Posted by: phx8 at June 13, 2013 12:21 AM
Comment #367257

http://www.scribd.com/doc/146881915/Democratic-Status-Update-Memo-IRS-Investigation

Posted by: Weary Willie at June 13, 2013 7:11 AM
Comment #367259

phx8, perhaps you could give us a link to this “recent poll”? Just to make sure it’s not a kos poll.

“As for the IRS, there is a good reason Issa now refuses to release the full transcripts of his hearing. It seems the hearing revealed that a conservative Republican at the IRS came up with the idea of targeting the Tea Party and others, and that it had nothing whatsoever to do with Washington DC or the Obama administration.”

phx8, if Issa refused to release the full transcripts of the hearing, how did you get the results? Once again, let’s have a link to your claim…facts, facts, facts.

“And now the CIA is full of “political dissidents” who are about to be purged. Well, knock me over with a feather. The CIA is full of “dissidents”! But if ever there was a hotbed of political dissidents agitating and fomenting unrest within the Obama administration, it was obviously the CIA. It’s just the kind of place that attracts dissidents, I guess.”

phx8, I read Frank’s link claiming people of a certain political persuasion are being let go; you made a joke of it and yet, once again, you offer no proof to back up your claim…facts, facts, facts.

You must have mentored under Stephen Daugherty; just make claims and never offer facts.

Posted by: CasperWY at June 13, 2013 11:12 AM
Comment #367261

DSP2195-
Both your comment and his regard the value of Gold, and an implied or outright preference for that monetary system over our current Federal Reserve System.

So if I’m off-topic, you went off topic first.

Y’all talk about the federal reserve, and buying power, and this and that, but have you considered that Americans today are better fed, better housed, have better healthcare, and have a much more massive infrastructure than they did a century ago?

Nope. To you the economy’s all about keeping a narrow set of numbers in the right place. That’s how y’all justified the whole derivatives mess, how you keep justifying it. But the truth is, the real economy is what we have to worry about, and the main economic problems of this period have to do with the way that certain policies and certain behaviors enabled by those policies are distorting and disrupting market mechanisms.

You don’t see that the Gold Standard itself was disruptive, sometimes fueling speculative excess, sometimes reinforcing economic recession. In essence, it meant we only had the money supply that our Gold Supply could justify, which meant that growth was constrained by the mining of additional gold.

You talk about a free market, but a Gold Standard isn’t really free market. It’s the government essentially saying this much Gold equals this much money.

As for what $10 bucks of 1913 Gold would be worth now? $805.71. But then are all Goods we have in 2013 comparable to what we would have had, on average, in 1913?

The average person these days can afford an apartment or house that their ancestors of that day couldn’t dream of, virtually all electrified. Most people own cars, own devices and appliances whose 1913 versions, if they existed at all, were vastly inferior.

You ignore all that, to weep over the relative decline of the dollar, rather than celebrate the vastly increased absolute buying power of the average person, or the value that their dollar buys.

That gold out there is worth something, but its a market that sets the price, an agreement, and at all times, even under your system, it’s an agreement by somebody, some organization that would set its relative worth compared to all the goods and services out there.

So I’m not ignorant, I simply don’t see what you deem to be some sort of inherent reality to have any substance.

As for the subject of the article. Yes, Obama bears some responsibility, and I’m disappointed in him. But unlike you, in your obsession, I am willing to hold both sides accountable, not simply engage in your kneejerk behavior, as you would like me to.

As for this?

Stephen goes on to blame Bush for all the ills of Obama’s presidency. Perhaps Stephen is too ignorant to understand that America’s political system (the Constitution) was based upon Judeo-Christian principles of morality and not upon Sharia law?

I could not write a more ridiculous parody of Right Wing thinking and commentary than you sincerely offer as an argument here.

First, I would argue that the system that the Framers set up was largely Greco-Roman in its structure. Hell, we get Senate, Veto, Quorum, and other terms and concepts almost directly from them. The Framers had about two hundred years of sectarian warfare in their past. There was the split between the Church in England and the Church in Rome. There was the break from the Catholic Church by Luther and his adherents, and the decades worth of war that started. Then in England, you had the Civil War, with Oliver Cromwell overthrowing the King, and instituting his own religious movement as supreme.

I won’t say there was no influence, but it’s an act of historical revisionism to characterize the Framers as being the kind of Religious Fundamentalists that today’s Tea Partiers are. They set up a system that was far more secular than many of the governments of that age, taking no position for or against Catholicism, Protestantism, Episcopal/Anglican churches, or anything else of that kind. Thomas Jefferson reassured the Barbary states of North Africa that there was nothing in America’s founding that made them enemies of Muslims.

It’s a fantasy from people trying to steal our nation’s history for themselves, in order to privilege their opinions and their policies over other people’s. But I personally know enough history to know they’re full of it. While it would be equally revisionist to say that nothing of America’s legal or cultural heritage comes from it’s largely Christian population and Christian roots, it’s also an act of willing obliviousness to ignore the strong secular roots of this country.

And you know what? The fact this is a secular country is what allows religion to thrive. We are free of other people’s religions, and so are free to follow our own.

I’m sorry you don’t value that freedom. You’re too busy trying to politically dominate everybody else to cherish it.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at June 13, 2013 12:11 PM
Comment #367262

Casper,
The Kos polling organization- PPP- was the most accurate polling organization in the recent election. That is a fact.

The info on the IRS hearing came from Representative Cummings. He attended and has publicly stated so. That is a fact.

Frank, in case you somehow did not know, was the most spectacularly wrong person during the last election. His comments on WB were hilarious wrong. That is a fact. On the other hand, I was spectacularly right, and that is on WB too. I relied on PPP polling, among others. Frank dismissed it, along with others. Everything was a conspiracy. Apparently, still is.

I’m never sure how many names Frank uses, or how many sock puppets. What is your guess?

And if you don’t want to revisit the last election, how about the subject of the economy?

Should we do some cut and pastes of Frank’s past comments, just for fun? It would be a real hoot.

Facts, facts, facts. Reality has a pronounced liberal bias. What to see proof? C’mon, it would be fun!

Posted by: phx8 at June 13, 2013 12:12 PM
Comment #367264

phx8, thanks for the links to your reported facts…Oh, your links ate Kos based PPP, whom you claim is reliable, and Representative Cummings, who has called for a shutdown of all investigations due to the fact, he is satisfied there was no wrong dong. Thanks phx8, but don’t be angry at me if I doubt your sources.

Regarding Frank, his predictions must have been before I started reading on WB. So I can’t really comment on him or his aliases. All I said was I read his link to his comments, which is more than you have provided. Thank you very much.

Posted by: CasperWY at June 13, 2013 1:00 PM
Comment #367265

“They set up a system that was far more secular than many of the governments of that age, taking no position for or against Catholicism, Protestantism, Episcopal/Anglican churches, or anything else of that kind”

And yet today, government goes against Christians everyday. Telling them where they can and cannot wear a symbol of their religion. What they can and cannot say in a speech. That they must accept and financially support actions that spit in the face of their religious beliefs.

Sorry, but this thing our government has morphed into takes a very hard position against religion.

Posted by: kctim at June 13, 2013 1:12 PM
Comment #367267

At what point are the American going to say enough. We now have the politicians in DC talking retirement, so they can leave with their guaranteed HC Ins. plans; rather than fall under the obamacare program for the rest of America. Wait till it affects the union worker’s HC plans.

The media is going to try to protect Obama on all this scandal stuff; but I don’t think it will work.

Frank brought up some interesting points, albeit they sound conspiratorial. But I did find this interview in the Canadian Free Press by Doug Hagmann. This complete article is well worth reading:

“We know all this already,” I stated. He looked at me, giving me a look like I’ve never seen, and actually pushed his finger into my chest. “You don’t know jack,” he said, “this is bigger than you can imagine, bigger than anyone can imagine. This administration is collecting names of sources, whistle blowers and their families, names of media sources and everybody they talk to and have talked to, and they already have a huge list. If you’re not working for MSNBC or CNN, you’re probably on that list. If you are a website owner with a brisk readership and a conservative bent, you’re on that list. It’s a political dissident list, not an enemy threat list,” he stated.”

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/55749

Posted by: CasperWY at June 13, 2013 1:37 PM
Comment #367271

Casper,
Here is the link to some of the IRS transcript Representative Cummings has already released:

http://democrats.oversight.house.gov/images/stories/Democratic_Status_Update_Memo_IRS_Investigation_060913.pdf

It is the original document, and it is devastating for Issa. It gets worse. Cummings has demanded Issa specifically identify which portions of the testimony he wants redacted, otherwise Cummings will go ahead and release the entire transcript after Monday.

Here is a link to the actual Republican Report on the GOP’s image among young people:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/145471237/Grand-Old-Party-for-a-Brand-New-Generation

It is 95 pages. They were discussed by a young GOP woman on various talking head shows, and other excerpts are available on numerous sites. Here is one:

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2013/06/gop-report-young-voters.php

Posted by: phx8 at June 13, 2013 2:42 PM
Comment #367272

So phx8 wants to drop all investigations of the scandals???

70% plus or minus, of Americans want the Benghazi, IRS, DIJ, and NAS to proceed:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/interactive/2013/06/12/fox-news-poll-voters-weigh-in-on-obama-administration-scandals/

Posted by: CasperWY at June 13, 2013 3:19 PM
Comment #367274

Drop all investigations of “scandals”?

Not at all.

Conducting oversight is fine. Appearing on talk shows and making accusations without proof, or worse, releasing partial transcripts to give a misleading impression of wrongdoing, is a recipe for disaster. I’ve said many times that following Issa will end badly for those who believe him. As the word gets out and the full transcripts are released, Issa will rightfully be held in contempt by most people.

Meanwhile, FOX will continue to flog the so-called scandals, just like they did with Fast and Furious, and then Benghazi in the run-up to the 2012 election. The conservatives in the echo chamber will have no idea why their political opinions have no correspondence with reality.

In the latest poll, former president Bush has an approval rating of 49%, higher than Obama! I think that is really funny. If anyone would care to explain why they approve of the former President, I would enjoy hearing it.

Posted by: phx8 at June 13, 2013 3:40 PM
Comment #367276

Elijah Cummings is an idiot, he backtracks on his idiotic comments:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2893545/posts

Cummings said the IRS investigation was finished, according to him there was no need for further investigation; but FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III said the investigation into the IS scandals was ongoing and not closed. To this Cummings began to backtrack…all of a sudden, Cummings did not really mean the investigation was over.

Please don’t use Cummings as proof of anything, he’s a complete fool. Much like Maxine Waters and Nancy Pelosi, Elijah Cummings is the best representative Maryland can produce.

Posted by: CasperWY at June 13, 2013 3:48 PM
Comment #367278

So you find it unbelievable that the American people now think more of Bush than they do Obama? I don’t find it so strange. Evidently you are not keeping up with Obama’s approval/disapprovals; or perhaps you would you would rather quote kos polls and condemn Fox polls. You guys on the left are so predictable.

Posted by: CasperWY at June 13, 2013 3:54 PM
Comment #367429

This is not a left/right issue. This sh*t started under Bush and has continued under Obama. When it comes to Congress, neither party has stood up in defense of the Fourth Amendment.
The NSA has been secretly spying on all of us, profiling us, and permanently storing those profiles in databases. They have done so in some cases in collusion with 1% elitists who want people who are concerned with civil liberties and the environment to be labeled as domestic terrorists simply because they oppose their industries trampling people’s rights and ruining the environment. These are the actions of of a fascist-totalitarian government (comprised of people on the left and the right) that is comparable to the Stasi or the KGB.
What they’re doing stands completely against the Fourth Amendment. Their spying is unnecessary search and seizure, done without probable cause, and as Snowden has revealed, frequently without any warrants.
I consider Snowden a brave whistle blower — and most Americans seem to agree since several of the latest polls coming out show that most people support what he has done, and don’t consider him a “traitor” for exposing the secret, unconstitutional actions of our government. I think it’s great that most people are able to grasp that the entire Bill of Rights is non-negotiable.

Posted by: Adrienne at June 18, 2013 5:09 PM
Comment #367431

Also, let me add that Snowden’s whistle blowing has made it more than clear that both Clapper and Alexander blatantly lied before Congress and to the American people. They should be jailed for such perjury, and the NSA should be put on trial.

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