Support the President

Let me take is opportunity when the polls are dead even (i.e. before it is clear that Romney will win) to reiterate that no matter who wins, we all support our president in his legitimate duties. We also reaffirm that whomever wins is the choice of the American people and therefore the best man for the job. I look forward to accepting the congratulations of all my liberal friends on November 7, but am prepared to offer mine to them should the result be less pleasant.

I have written similar things in 2004 and 2008. Responses have been mixed. Good people on both sides have agreed that they will support the new president, but there have been a good share of pinheads who are too unpatriotic and narrow minded to see beyond their partisan selfishness.

So let's hear from you. On November 7 I will pledge my enthusiastic support for President Obama/Romney. As an American, I reserve the right to oppose his policies politically, but I have no right to question his legitimacy or oppose him in his lawful duties. Neither do any of you.

Of course, I will be much happier and the country will be better run if Romney is the choice, but our country has survived worse challenges than Obama. Fortunately, we are stronger than the man on top and the American nation is greater than the American government.

Posted by Christine & John at October 14, 2012 11:05 AM
Comments
Comment #354565

“As an American, I reserve the right to oppose his policies politically, but I have no right to question his legitimacy or oppose him in his lawful duties.”

I will sign on to that. Key words for me are “lawful duties”.

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 14, 2012 12:23 PM
Comment #354566

I agree with Royal and also sign on to that.

Posted by: KAP at October 14, 2012 12:48 PM
Comment #354571

C&J,
“Support the President.” It’s a question I’ve asked myself more than once re Romney. The answer? I’m fine being part of the loyal opposition, should that come to pass. And to be realistic, this election will almost certainly result in a situation similar to the previous four years: a Senate capable of stopping any and everything the opposition wants, regardless of which side controls the Senate, House or Presidency. Sixty seats aren’t in the cards for either party. Gridlock is virtually assured.

A bigger concern would be what would happen should the GOP change the Senate rules, or use other legislative procedures to push through legislation with just 50 votes in the Senate, or convince a small number of Democrats to cross the aisle and vote with them. This happened with the Bush administration in 2003, when the second round of tax cuts passed and the Iraq War happened. It was a catastrophe for Americans in every sense. A financial catastrophe. A military disaster. A worldwide loss of prestige. A loss of honor, as America became a country that tortured people, while conservative justices removed restrictions on billionaire and corporate attempts to purchase politicians.

I don’t think it will happen in 2012, but suppose Romney does win, and somehow enacts an agenda that involves tax cuts and a resumption of Neocon foreign policy? Romney would lead the country into an economic Depression with a year of passing his economic agenda. His Neocons would push the US into an overt war with Iran.

We’re already in a War with Iran in every way short of armored combat. We destroyed the Iranian economy, we’ve decimated them with cyber attacks, and in turn they have lauched cyber warfare against AramaCo in Saudi Arabia, and denial of service attacks against US agencies.

Even then, even facing the prospect of economic Depression and War, I think I would still stay in this country, and remain a part of the loyal opposition. But it wouldn’t be easy.

Posted by: phx8 at October 14, 2012 1:25 PM
Comment #354572

I will sign on to that; however I personally don’t believe Obama has a snowballs chance. The polls will begin their “unexpected” shift toward Romney. Unexpected is the key word; meaning how was this shift able to happen? Any poll that wants to be considered a legitimate poll in 2014 will all of a sudden begin to show what is really happening. FL, NC, and VA, which a month ago was in the bag for Obama; have all of a sudden been placed solidly in the Romney camp; how does this happen?

If Obama wins the election, I will be the first to say America has given him the mandate to continue to lead our country toward oblivion. If the Dems take control of the House and regain the Senate, I will stop attacking his policies and will move to the next stage of warning people of the impending doom of America as we know it and warn of the Lord’s second coming.

On the other hand, if Romney wins, I doubt the left will ever consider it a mandate for freedom. If the Repbs maintain the control of the House and gain the Senate, it will certainly be a mandate that the American people are opposed to everything Obama and the Democrats have done in the past 4 years. But, again I do not expect such civil discourse from the left. Those who complain the most about attacks on Obama were the very ones who led unrelenting attacks on Bush and will once again devote their time and energy to attacking Romney/Ryan and any Republican controlled Congress.

Posted by: Frank at October 14, 2012 1:26 PM
Comment #354573

Frank you are old enough to remember the Clinton years and the most vicious attacks on both Clinton’s by the conservatives aren’t you? Including a special prosecutor and his witch hunts?

You are also old enough to remember what GWB was dogged about and how it turned out to be one big disaster for this Country aren’t you?

Then why this tired old crap-“Those who complain the most about attacks on Obama were the very ones who led unrelenting attacks on Bush”?

Posted by: j2t2 at October 14, 2012 4:31 PM
Comment #354574

I don’t see how we can ever work together when attacking President Obama and sabotaging his agenda by relentless and paralyzing filibusters and committee black holes is a patriotic duty. When hounding President Clinton about personal issues, most of which were unfounded (till the end when they trapped him into lying about not having a consensual sexual encounter) and the overwhelmingly Republican tactic of sacking judicial and cabinet appointees is considered patriotic.

Yet, less obtrusive moves by the Democrats is considered treason.

There’s no middle ground here when the conservatives consider Republicans trying to get their agenda = patriotic duty to save America. While Democrats trying to implement their agenda = treasonous, socialistic attempts to destroy America.

How are we supposed to work together?

NOW… in hopes that Romney wins the WH, you want to make a statement that you are willing to support either president?!?!? This from the party that met on the eve of the inauguration of President Obama to plan the demise of his four years in office?

You have some nerve, man.

Posted by: LibRick at October 14, 2012 4:53 PM
Comment #354575

LibRick,
You bring up a good point. If the conservative’s behavior towards Obama can considered acceptable- a record number of filibusters and a record number of unfulfilled appointments, job bills left on the table, holding the economy hostage over the debt ceiling unless the Democratic agenda is advanced- and if that behavior should now be dismissed with a shrug of the shoulders, and an ‘aw shucks, let bygones be bygones,’ so let’s respect the vote and get behind Mitt; well then, why shouldn’t the same behavior be perfectly acceptable on the part of the Democrats? Better yet, wouldn’t it be reasonable to expect the Democrats to set a new record for filibusters and tabled appointments? If any legislation might somehow be perceived as beneficial to Romney, wouldn’t it be fair- nay, right! to stop that legislation, just as the GOP stopped the jobs and infrastructure bill?

Romney would understand. As governor of MA, he cast over 800 vetoes.

Turnabout is fair play. It’s not disloyalty to dish it right back, is it?

Posted by: phx8 at October 14, 2012 6:17 PM
Comment #354576

If Romney gets in I hope that every piece of legislation put to the senate gets filibustered…. every single piece…. as well as ALL of his nominations. It’s important that the democratic party put its own interest before those of the country and our number 1 goal should be to see that Romney does not get re-elected.

Posted by: muirgeo at October 14, 2012 7:16 PM
Comment #354577

Actually a better plan would be for the democratic party to allow EVERY piece of republican legislation to go un-opposed so people can see what a republican world would look like. I think that’s the only way to get these fact challenged people to see what it is they voted for.

Posted by: muirgeo at October 14, 2012 7:19 PM
Comment #354578

Phx8

The Iraq resolution was passed when Democrats controlled the Senate. Although Biden’s memory fails, he voted for it too.

Of course you will stay in this country. I find it interesting that many liberals claim they will leave, but never do. How can we miss them if they never leave?

Librick

I have always supported my president, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush and Obama. We have the right to criticize and seek political action.

Read back at what I have written about Obama. I expect you to be as loyal to Romney should he win and would cut as much slack as you have given me.

It is interesting that you think Romney will win.

Posted by: C&J at October 14, 2012 7:26 PM
Comment #354580

C&J,
Moving to another country involves more than escaping this one’s problems; it also means becoming involved in the other place’s problems. Victoria, B.C. is a wonderful city. Like Portlanders, the people in Victoria are polite, environmentally aware, fit, and very liberal. In addition to a provincial and national income tax, they pay a 12% sales tax. Then again, they have universal health care. Since I am 55, the Romney/Ryan plan would be a disaster for me when it comes to medical coverage. As it is, I’m taxed at the highest possible rate due to the AMT. I pay well over double the rate of what Romney pays… Guess I should have put my money in the Caymens, Bermuda, and Switzerland, eh? You know, stick it to the 47%… people like my kids…

Posted by: phx8 at October 14, 2012 7:58 PM
Comment #354582

phx8

Since you are 55, the Ryan/Romney plan won’t affect your health care at all.

Re your taxes - if you don’t want to pay high taxes, you can invest in municipal bonds. Lots of rich guys do that. They produce lower yields but are tax efficient. You could also give lots of your money away to charity, as Romney does.

The AMT is a bitch. That was an earlier attempt to tax the rich that ended up biting lots of people like us. Obama’s tax on “the rich” will have similar effects.

Re sticking it your kids - join me in advocating SS reforms. I have been having this discussion with Adrienne and others, who prefer to keep what they got rather than help the next generation. We can do better.

Posted by: C&J at October 14, 2012 9:02 PM
Comment #354589

C&J,
Munis won’t work for me. It’s complicated. I’m heavily invested in the stock market. The stock was originally insider stock. Lots of it. When I faced a six figure tax bill for exercising the stock options- which is NOT the same as selling the stock- I margined the payment rather than liquidating the stock. It was the biggest, riskiest, and most profitable decision I have ever made. The stock turned out to be one of the hottest growth stocks in the entire market. It boomed. But AMT runs 38% over a certain amount, so I’m trapped into liquidating relatively small amounts each year.

I’m both fortunate and thankful. I know that. The huge bull market during the Obama administration was no abstract matter for me. It was HUGE. And when I see the GOP conservatives advocating the same policies as Bush administration policies, I get very, very nervous.

If the GOP wins and abolishes capital gains, then I would liquidate and leave the country. No question. That’s a no brainer. I don’t want to be around for the Romney economic crash Redux, a la Bush.

I don’t want to be a rich man in a poor country.

And that’s what the GOP agenda will do. Make no mistake. We’ll have low taxes and few social benefits. Americans will be wonderfully free, with 1% enjoying a lavish life style, and the other 99% toiling without the the protection of labor unions or a social safety net, much like El Salvadorean peasants or Chinese workers. They’re ‘free’ too, you know.

Of course, all of this is predicated on Romney somehow winning, and the GOP passing its frightening economic agenda. The chances of that are slim indeed.

Posted by: phx8 at October 14, 2012 10:02 PM
Comment #354591

If Mitt Romney wins the election this year, a week later, U.S. banks will be closed and soldiers will be marching in the streets!

Posted by: Adam Ducker at October 15, 2012 12:06 AM
Comment #354596

Phx8

So you made a pile of money in the stock market and are paying your “fair share”. Good.

The AMT was enacted by Democrats past to “soak the rich”. Worked out well for you, did it?

The thing that Romney and others do is buy municipal bonds etc. They pay lower interest but have tax advantages. In the whole, they probably even out in expected gain.

Romney also gives away lots of money, so if he was just interested in maximizing income, he could stop doing that. His taxes would be higher, but he would still have more money.

Re taxes - Romney says he will not cut taxes paid by the rich nor cut taxes that will add to the deficit. It will be a more rational system.

The Chinese and El Salvador peasants live in unfree markets. That is one reason they are poor. These systems are closer to the government control you advocate than the freedom I love best.

Re leaving the country - you won’t. You know that Romney will not harm you liberty. People who leave the U.S. do so for other reasons. A significant but small number are leaving to seek better opportunity in place like Australia.

Posted by: C&J at October 15, 2012 6:44 AM
Comment #354604

phx8, I can’t tell if you are advocating a higher or lower tax rate for yourself.

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 15, 2012 5:11 PM
Comment #354608

Royal

He wants a lower tax rate on himself while advocating a higher tax rate in general in order to continue to feel virtuous. It is typical liberal-think.

Posted by: C&J at October 15, 2012 6:50 PM
Comment #354611

No one can deny that a country that is $16 trillion in debt was living high yesterday at the expense of tomorrow. When I was active selling financial products my motto was…”Today’s decisions are tomorrow’s reality.”

Our “chickens truly have come home to roost” and it isn’t pretty. We can borrow or print much more money before we collapse…but should we? Our children and grandchildren already have a $55,000 noose around their neck with today’s debt, do we wish to increase it?

Stephen Daugherty maintains that more deficit spending will spur our economy to such a degree that a quick recovery will generate enough revenue to not only pay our current bills but also pay down the debt as well. He always fails to tell us how high the debt must reach before this happens.

In 2008, obama promised that he would begin to pay down our debt in his first administration. That hasn’t happened. He blames his failure on congress blocking his actions. Was he not astute enough to understand there would be obstacles to his adding even more debt rather than reducing it?

Did those who voted for obama in 2008 understand what he had in mind about spending $5 trillion more in money we didn’t have? I don’t think so. He promised more jobs but did those who voted for him in 2008 understand that he meant to do it with government spending and occurring ever more debt?

Did seniors on Medicare, who voted for obama, understand that he was going to remove over $800 billion from Medicare to pay for obamacare?

Did seniors on SS, who voted for obama, ever expect him to announce that SS benefits would be among the first on the chopping block should congress fail to increase the debt limit?

It is easy to understand why all of obama’s voting blocks are not nearly as enthusiastic about him in 2012 as they were in 2008.

Obama has failed in keeping his promises among those who voted for him. Many moderate democrats and even more Independent voters are not willing to give him a second chance. Republicans are much more motivated by Romney than by McCain and there will be even more of them voting this time over last time.

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 15, 2012 7:39 PM
Comment #354612

phx8 writes: “I don’t want to be a rich man in a poor country.”

And…”with 1% enjoying a lavish life style,…”

Please explain how being rich and enjoying a lavish life style would cause you to leave?

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 15, 2012 7:48 PM
Comment #354614

Royal Flush: “He promised more jobs but did those who voted for him in 2008 understand that he meant to do it with government spending and occurring ever more debt?”

I understood that one but maybe that’s just me.

“In 2008, obama promised that he would begin to pay down our debt in his first administration.”

Did he say that? How could he promise to pay down the debt if he also promised only to half the deficit in his first term? Was that before the half deficit promise?

“Did those who voted for obama in 2008 understand what he had in mind about spending $5 trillion more in money we didn’t have?”

What could Obama have done differently to avoid growing the debt to that level?

Posted by: Adam Ducker at October 15, 2012 8:45 PM
Comment #354619

My tax situation is even more involved than described. The feds withheld a huge tax credit against future stock sales. But the point is that, at least in my case, a tax only becomes an important consideration when a profit is involved. I have no problem whatsoever with paying high taxes if that contributes to a healthy economy and a good, decent, safe society. I have a huge problem with paying less tax against a backdrop of plunging real estate prices, robber barons like Bain Capital pillaging companies and offshoring jobs, unnecessary wars… you get my drift.

Give me a healthy economy- tax me a little more- and I’ll more than make up for it by growing wealth. Give me a bad economy- cut my taxes and save a few thousand- and I stand to lose tens of thousands or more.

That is exactly what happened during the Bush administration. A bad economy. And that is what happened during the Obama administration. A good economy.

Posted by: phx8 at October 15, 2012 11:52 PM
Comment #354620

My personal example is an example of a person seeking growth. People who are very wealthy invest in municipal bonds, which are safe, and pay interest free of federal and state tax. It amazes me that a guy like Romney would funnel his wealth into Switzerland and the Cayman Islands. US municipal bonds fund our local and state infrastructures. That’s a good thing.

Posted by: phx8 at October 16, 2012 12:23 AM
Comment #354623

phx8

I think that almost everybody would be willing to pay more taxes if they thought government was able to use that money better than they were and it was going in the right direction.

The problem is that government is a tool created by the people to serve its needs and protect its liberty. But - as Washington said - it is like fire: a dangerous tool and a fearful master. One way we keep it from mastering us is by making sure it doesn’t get too big.

The interesting thing about your complaint is that of the things you mention, only the wars are the direct choice of government. The plunging real estate prices are, in fact, a healthy correction. You might blame government credit policies of putting them so high in the first place, but the drop was actually a good thing in terms of making it possible for more people to live affordably.

You also must know that Romney was active in Bain only in the 1990s, a time when the economy was indeed growing robustly. Bain was doing what you say is virtuous: making good money in a good economy.

“Give me a healthy economy- tax me a little more- and I’ll more than make up for it by growing wealth.” - this is the Romney program. As the economy grows, you will pay more in taxes and make up for it growing wealth. It would not be fair for government to raise the rates to grab most of your growing wealth, which is more or less the Obama plan.

Re Bush and Obama - actually 2003-6 were great years. You assume that the crash came as the result of Bush policies these years, but then you also seem to understand that international events played a role (which is why you say Obama cannot fix it.) There are significant contradictions in what you wrote above.

Posted by: C&J at October 16, 2012 6:36 AM
Comment #354624

Phx8

Re Romney’s money - I am unaware that significant amounts were “funneled” to Switzerland or the Cayman islands. If you have a diverse portfolio, it is likely that some of your money is in foreign investments. I think that is unavoidable, but putting lots of money in Cayman Islands of Switzerland would be a poor way to make money.

I am also interested that you have become a true capitalist with your own money, valuing the growth of private firms over investment in government projects through municipal bonds etc.

I am a bit more moderate. I think we need also to invest in state and local government.

Posted by: C&J at October 16, 2012 6:42 AM
Comment #354625

Zack

Beyond the Pale. I won’t allow that. It is okay to attack political leaders and policies. What you wrote is not.

Posted by: C&J at October 16, 2012 6:43 AM
Comment #355181

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