Diversity = Inequality; Equality = Uniformity. Which do you like?

When we see people not getting what they/we think they deserve, we usually think that some kind of unfairness or discrimination involved. We demand equality. Yet our next sentence often praises diversity. It is like demanding that something be both wet and dry at the same time and then screaming that we don’t like the dampness.

The two words - diversity & equality - are very nearly antonyms and when you get more of one, you tend to get less of the other. Diversity envisions a variety of choices and a wide range of behaviors and values. How can anybody believe that different behaviors, choices and values will or should produce equal or sometimes even broadly similar results?

This goes for individuals as well as for the artificial groups they choose to belong to or that society assigns to them precisely based on differences. If your society values music as its highest aspiration and yours values math, who do you think will produce the better musicians on average and who will produce the better mathematicians? It is really not possible to judge which is better. Whether the musician is better than the mathematician depends on what you need and value and of course, we can have both and we can have lots of different things, but we cannot expect them to be present in equal measure if we have diversity, i.e. different inputs, among individuals and groups.

IMO - we should be looking for a dynamic where we have political & legal equality, but where everywhere else we expect outcomes to be very different among individuals and - on average - among diverse groups.

It is clearly true that the group you associate with influences your habits and values. This socialization, rather than discrimination by the greater society, explains most of the diversity of outcomes. For example, math and music requires some of the same skill sets and a person with such talents might develop into either a musician or a mathematician. Which he/she chooses depends to a large extent on the people he knows. And of course, it is possible to waste talent entirely.

As a society, we can only deplore the waste of talent. But when we look at the reasons why talent is wasted, the point of influence is rarely the larger society or lack of macro opportunity and more often the influence of the small groups and the family. Addressing the macro level of opportunity does little to address the real point of failure. And addressing the wrong point of influence allows the actual problems to persist.

We should value diversity. I also think we should value excellence, which too is at odds with equality. Everyone should have a chance to develop his/her talents. This means that we need to give the resources to the brightest to develop as well as to the dullest. The brightest will probably respond better. Teachers always tell me that the bright kids do well no matter what. But that is not the complete answer.

If the bright kid COULD be a noble prize winner but instead we encourage him only to be "good enough" and meanwhile direct the lion's share of our resources to the duller half of the class, in hopes that they will "catch up", we are committing an offense against the talent and the persons of the bright kids. We are also depriving society of their fully developed talents and getting in return only the good feeling that we are helping the underdogs.

The quest for equality is less likely to produce Nobel prize winners or champions of any kind.

Our real goal should be fairness, which means that we treat equal things the same, but unequal things in different ways. The smart kid who is held to a lower standard by benign neglect is as much of a victim as the duller one who is similarly neglected. It doesn't really matter if the smart kid still gets to be a doctor or a lawyer if he/she is not living up to his/her potential.

As long as we are talking synonyms and antonyms, let's think about some of the synonyms for equality. We can come up with words like likeness, uniformity & mediocrity. Is that what we want? Wouldn't we rather have excellence, diversity & distinction?

Americans have always been strivers. We want to be better, not just as good as or good enough. This is how it should be. Equality should be prized in law and political rights, maybe in kindergarten & games of random chance. Everywhere else, it just ain't good enough.

Posted by Christine & John at October 2, 2011 1:02 PM
Comments
Comment #329992

John, this may not be an appropriate analogy for ‘equality should be prized in law and political rights, but what are your thoughts as to the gov’t choosing to subsidize, for example, a half dozen solar panel mfctr’s over a hundred or so who are going it on their own? Or, subsidizing a ‘green’ vehicle to the tune of $7500/vehicle while non-green car mfctr’s enjoy some lesser subsidy?

Going further, equality under the law as it relates to any action the gov’t takes to create winners and losers in the market place?

And, what can we say about a gov’t that subsidizes companies to locate overseas and subsidizes companies to return to US soil?? Is this equal/fair for companies that have remained in the US?

Otherwise - - -

Posted by: Roy Ellis at October 2, 2011 6:26 PM
Comment #329998

Nice try, but false math.

Posted by: Tom Jefferson at October 3, 2011 8:24 AM
Comment #330002

Roy Ellis

Good question.

I am opposed to doling out money to private enterprise so they can grow their product.

Businessmen are not holders of an IQ of -3, but the politicians may have a collective IQ of -24.

They are using my tax money to go to toilet with.

Let them hold their own and wipe up with whichever the fortunes flow.

If they get wealthy great. If they fail, learn, pick up the pieces and try another way.

But don’t make me a partner in failure, a la Solyndra.

Maranatha

Posted by: tom humes at October 3, 2011 1:21 PM
Comment #330018

Tom

Assume you disagree with some kind of math, but since none was included, I think you may have replied to the wrong posting. Hope the presence of an equal sign as opposed to the word is not what confused you.

Roy and Tom

I wrote an earlier post (two actually) where I said that I am generally against government subsidizing particular firms.

Posted by: C&J at October 3, 2011 6:18 PM
Comment #330019

If you want to know how wrong your equation is, you have only to look on my iPhone. You have Pearl Jam, Enya, Daft Punk, Bruce Hornsby, Deep Forest, Hans Zimmer, Queensryche, Green Day, Gorillaz, Radiohead, Basil Poledouris, Yoko Kanno, Eve 6, and other various artists on there. They are diverse. Now, I don’t have a perfectly equal love for each individual artist, but I regard them equally enough that I gave them space in my little part of the marketplace, and paid for those albums.

Diverse, but in my estimation, equally worth my time in most cases.

I don’t like top-ten lists, really, or ranking movies. I enjoy movies for what they are. I watched Martin Scorsese’s Casino the same day I watched Toy Story, Watched Tron: Legacy the same day I watched True Grit (that was a triple bill, actually, but I forget the third movie I watched that day ;-) )

I’ve got a decent collection of DVDs and Blu-Rays, to present another example. When folks were arguing about whether The Matrix was better than Star Wars, or The Lord of the Rings was better than Harry Potter, I just thought it was absurd. I watch the Matrix movies for different reasons than I do The Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter.

I can remember something that somebody said in another Fantasy/Science Fiction work, four or five decades ago: like and equal are not the same at all. Equality in America doesn’t come from a lack of diversity or complexity, it comes from an acknowledgment that diversity and complexity have a right to exist, despite those who might disagree with it.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 3, 2011 6:43 PM
Comment #330026

Diversity = Inequality; Equality = Uniformity. Which do you like?

I wouldn’t make either choice, instead, I will go with both…Diversity and Equality.

We are a nation of diversity and equality in my opinion. We are also a nation of laws. The law looks upon every American as being equal. When and where that is abused, legal redress is available.

Where some folks get confused is in the definition of each. Is diversity expressed best in the hyphenated names some call themselves? Is a Black-American better, worse, or the same as a Hispanic-American or an Irish-German American? All of us come from somewhere else except the original native Indians. Nearly all can all point to some period of time when we, by virtue of our ancestry, were minorities ourselves and perhaps faced discrimination of some kind.

Our ancestors came to these shores seeking equality despite our diversity. We found it didn’t happen as quickly as we would have liked, but we persevered and did obtain equality.

Equality didn’t come with guarantees of our individual success and doesn’t today. All may strive, not all will succeed. While equal before God, and our legal system, we are left to our own devices as to how best succeed.

That is freedom at its best, the freedom to achieve through our own efforts and ambition that which we desire. Our individual failure or success, provided equality is maintained, is not the purview of government.

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is an inside job, with governments role being that of ensuring that others do not interfere with our efforts.

That government has seen fit to assume the role of guarantor of individual success is directly opposed to our founders vision of individual freedom.

How does one stretch for excellence if there is no reward for the effort? As a student I made nearly straight A’s. Never was I asked to take a lessor grade to share with those who made C’s, D’s, and F’s. Such an attempt at equality would have been dismissed as the ranting of an idiot.

Yet, we find today those who would advocate the redistribution of wealth by government force. Is this a good idea? Will it cause those who fail to achieve much strive to do so? Would my sharing of my wealth with another be not just a handout, rather than a hand up?

Because we value every life, we ensure that all have the necessities to keep them alive. Beyond that, we should encourage those who wish to become better the means to do so. The problem is…how do we make that measurement.

Not every one who is poor or in need has the desire to help themselves do better by the work necessary to achieve that goal. How then to treat these individuals? Do we reward them along with those who will work for their own betterment? Do we lump them all together with tax dollars going to all who merely meet some standard of income?

Is income really the best method of deciding who gets and who pays? Are we not able to distinguish between desire and greed, between those to whom our help will be encouragement rather than a handout?

It is irresponsible of government to help those who will not help themselves beyond keeping them alive. Where there is no earned reward there is no effort.

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 3, 2011 8:21 PM
Comment #330028

Royal Flush

A number of good points.

I want to make a point that is close to home.

My mother is 93. She has a sole income of SS. She lives alone. She give 10% to her church. She wants for nothing more. If there were a need there a six children and we all would chip in to help her. She lives within her means and that is a lesson for millions of people of whatever income
level they have and whatever their wants and desires are. There are also millions of people who live as my mother does.

Even people who have lo incomes are greedy and demand more of what they are not entitled to.

Thanks again Royal Flush

Maranatha

Posted by: tom humes at October 3, 2011 10:00 PM
Comment #330029

Stephen

You can have those choices. I also have eclectic taste in music. But would you demand that all the artist in your collection receive equal pay?

Re regarding them equally, I doubt you listen to each of them an equal amount of time. Why would you?


In other words, you can “regard” them all as equal as long as there is nothing at stake or nothing measuring.

My illustration from the world of education is an argument that I have heard on many occasions. What do you think? We have a limited budget for education. You have the choice of devoting more resources to the underachieving kids. In the case of limited resources, that means that fewer resources got to the higher achievers.

The actual question here is whether you want to try to bring everybody to a similar level or if you want to allow or even encourage higher performers to move even farther ahead.

Royal

I am using the word diversity in the current political way, but also in the real way it should be used - differences.

I think we agree that we should strive for equality under the law and in political rights, but beyond that the government has no business trying to create equality.

I also understand that people have different priorities. Some of us have chosen careers that yield less money than we could otherwise make. They have traded things like time or satisfaction for money. It would be very unfair to give them the money of someone who has chosen to sacrifice time or job satisfaction because he wanted to earn more.

Posted by: C&J at October 3, 2011 10:03 PM
Comment #330033

C&J said:

“I think we agree that we should strive for equality under the law and in political rights, but beyond that the government has no business trying to create equality.”

This is the fudamental difference between conservatives and liberals.

There are thousands marching, in different cities, against the establishment, because they want what others have worked for, without lifting a hand for themselves. This is history repeating itself; these same idiots did the same thing 50 years ago. What was the results of their protests; lootings and destruction of personal property. I heard today that these marxist protestors are not allowed to carry fags because they use the flag sticks as a weapon. On the other hand, those in the TP rallys are allowed to carry flags. It is well documented that after a TP rally, the area is spotless; but after one of these marxist riots, only destruction remains. One group thinks of others and the other group thinks only of themselves.

Posted by: TomT at October 4, 2011 12:08 AM
Comment #330034

The 18th and prohibition is a good analogy. People wanted dry so they got their amendment and no sooner was the ink dry when hucksters began paying off politicians to keep a foot in the liquor business. We all remember the Kennedy elder.

Look at how Corporate Personhood was put into law (middle column, top thread, my last post) by a group of raunchy railroad barons and some sleazy Supreme Court justices.
Corporate Personhood, as a case in law, has never been heard yet all we hear is ‘stare decisis’ regarding CP law. Then the courts topped that one with ‘money is free speech’. Let’s run that one up the flag pole as to ‘equality and uniformity’.

Blows ‘one person, one vote’ out of the water along with anything resembling democracy and free and clean elections. If I have one dollar and you have a thousand then, by law, your voice is a thousand times stronger than mine. Why we continue to tolerate such bullcrap I do not know.

Otherwise - - -

Posted by: Roy Ellis at October 4, 2011 12:16 AM
Comment #330036
I think we agree that we should strive for equality under the law and in political rights, but beyond that the government has no business trying to create equality.

As a liberal, I agree 100% with this sentiment. It is the essence of liberalism to strive towards equalizing opportunities by granting everyone identical political rights in the eyes of the law.

Posted by: Warped Reality at October 4, 2011 1:15 AM
Comment #330055


I agree with that statement as well. Unfortunately the person who authored those words also constantly falsely accuses the opposition of trying to force everyone to be equal in wealth. This is a blatant lie and produces the kind of reactionary rhetoric displayed in Tom T’s remarks.

C&J, the question isn’t should the mail room clerk make the same as the CEO, of course he shouldn’t; the question is should the CEO make 400 or 4000 times as much as the clerk. Yet, you consistently espouse the former as the agenda of the left rather than the latter.

Money is free speech makes a mockery of both equality under the law and equality in political rights.

Posted by: jlw at October 4, 2011 4:26 PM
Comment #330069

TomT-
The people who really earned it? The folks on Wall Street gave themselves billions in bonuses after triggering crashes so deep they required government help. And after that disaster, did they say, “we give up, we couldn’t police ourselves?”

No, they’ve fought regulation every since.

Seeing as how their unregulated market activity is responsible for at least eight million lost jobs in the last recession, I don’t know how that view holds water.

We are in a demand driven recession, where most layoffs by a long shot are due to the lack of customers and those customer’s reduced buying power.

Republican’s response so far? Cut spending, meaning less economic activity, and fire government workers, meaning the employment problem gets worse. Then cut taxes for the people who, after Bush’s enormous tax cuts, took a vacation on job creation in the US.

The people out there are protesting a system where CEOs fail, yet get millions when they’re fired, where their retirement and their life-savings are made feedstock for get-rich quick schemes that hollow them out.

These folks have failed time and time again to honor the implicit agreement that in exchange for more freedom to make money the way they liked, they fortunes of the average person would go up.

By the way, “marxist riots?” the only violence I’ve heard of so far is by the police on protestors.

C&J-
Well, I pay $0.99 for your average track, 9.99 for the average album, so I’m paying most of them equally. Those who do better work more consistently get more of my money. As for whether I play them all equally, no, but I tend to buy in albums rather than single by single, so I give many songs that normally don’t attract the attention of listeners a chance to shine.

My feeling is, while it’s good to reward those who naturally achieve well, the purpose of a good education system is to upgrade the capabilities and the skillset of the rest, so that less potential goes to waste. It’s one thing to compete for grades, where inequality is a matter of merit. It’s quite another thing to force competition for the privilege of remaining open. Go look at the banking industry: it was those who could play the game the best that won, but playing the game well didn’t mean that the banks involved actually did well financially. In fact, their game resulted in across the board failure.

We’ve seen many cases of teaching to the test (meaning rather than getting better education, we get test preparation all the time,) or that administrators screw with the results to get their rewards. When you set up competitions, you have to be careful what you incentivize, because some people will take any available shortcut if you provide it, and if the stakes are high enough, even the moral will follow the bad behavior of the cheaters in order to survive and prosper in the system.

That is why I don’t trust competition alone to inhibit bad behavior: because I know the dark side of human creativity, the ability and willingness of people to circumvent standards of common decency, in too many cases, in order to profit in the real world. People don’t adapt to what is best or ideal, they adapt to what keeps them in business, what the norms of the system require of them, no matter how wrong or unfair.

So, the question is, what are you trying to encourage, what are you trying to discourage, and how do you incentivize good while you punish bad? It’s never a simple answer, but I find many times, it helps to notice what people’s most likely behavior is, to pave the paths that people naturally tread, so to speak, or put the walls just where you don’t want those paths to go.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 4, 2011 8:27 PM
Comment #330099

“By the way, “marxist riots?” the only violence I’ve heard of so far is by the police on protestors.”

Said by SD, who has no concept of reality.

“New York City police say about 700 protesters have been arrested after they swarmed the Brooklyn Bridge and shut down a lane of traffic for several hours.

The group Occupy Wall Street has been camped out in a plaza in Manhattan’s Financial District for nearly two weeks staging various marches, and had orchestrated an impromptu trek to Brooklyn on Saturday evening. They walked in thick rows on the sidewalk up to the bridge, where some demonstrators spilled onto the roadway after being told to stay on the pedestrian pathway, police said. Most of those arrested face disorderly conduct charges, while others were accused of resisting arrest.”


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/10/01/500-arrested-after-wall-street-protest-on-nys-brooklyn-bridge/#ixzz1ZwinzRfa

By the way SD, when was the last time ANY people were arrested at a TP rally?

Posted by: TomT at October 5, 2011 5:47 PM
Comment #330136

TomT-
You know something, as Jon Stewart recentlythe Tea Party that your political organization is named after is one of the most famous examples of theft, vandalism, and property destruction in American history.

Speaking of Vandalism, your side has decided that a man who advocated coordinated vandalism against Democratic Party offices is a reliable source on subjects like Operation Fast and Furious.

That wasn’t recent. That was during the rise of the Tea Party in America, and it looks like quite a few people took him at his word.

Ah, but peaceful misdemeanors in the process of civil disobedience are so much worse!

The demonstrations, I think, are a sign that people have finally had it with letting their leaders take the lead on the status quo. But your side has no answer to them, other than to belittle and besmirch them. You’ll used populist frustration to fuel your movement, which has no good faith intentions of actually fixing the problems people have, but if folks actually stand up and ask for what’s rightfully there, then they’re just in the way of steak dinners for those nice wall street folks who supposedly deserve it, despite crashing the economy.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at October 6, 2011 6:00 PM
Comment #330140

“But your side has no answer to them, other than to belittle and besmirch them.”

You mean like you personally did against republicans?

These retards gathered on WS and elsewhere around the country don’t even know why they are protesting. You say they are fed up. With what? Have you taken the time to read their protest signs? Stephen, your statements are intellectually deficient.

Posted by: TomT at October 6, 2011 6:35 PM
Comment #330141

I find it amusing that the wall street mobs are being supported by the very same “rich” people they despise. OH…WAIT, maybe its OK to be rich if you work in Hollywood, or at least display the new liberalism beliefs. obama gains much support from Wall Street but the mob is simply too dumb to know or care.

Posted by: Royal Flush at October 6, 2011 7:26 PM
Comment #330148

“obama gains much support from Wall Street but the mob is simply too dumb to know or care.”

Royal Flush,

Why do you presume that the protesters are in favor of Obama or his policies toward Wall Street? Progressives have been highly critical of Obama’s appointments in key economic positions and policies regarding the financial system since the day of his inauguration. The appointments of Geitner, Summers and the continuation of neo-liberal economic policies is not what progressives wanted or supported. The re-appointment of Bernanke as Fed Chairman was hardly cause for progressive joy. The failure to vigorously prosecute and pursue civil actions against corporate control fraud has outraged progressives. The absence of a “Pecora Commission” to fully investigate the causes of the economic collapse is another disappointment. The watered down financial reform bill was hardly want progressives thought necessary. Bailing out the financial system may have been needed, but progressives are hardly satisfied with a bailout that leaves the TBTF banks standing and their executives receiving outlandish bonuses.

Progressives are fully aware that both parties have been bought by Wall Street. There is no illusion that Obama is some radical, socialist, Marxist or some other ideologue bent on changing the financial system. That is some weird right wing fantasy unsupported by any legitimate assessment of his policies, particularly as regards Wall Street.

Progressives may support Obama’s call for increased taxes on those high income groups that have vastly and disproportionately increased their share of national income over the past few decades. But, that doesn’t mean that progressives support all or even a majority of his financial policies.


Posted by: Rich at October 6, 2011 9:28 PM
Comment #330161

A large group of people that gather with a cause that is not supported by the tea baggers are a mob. A large group of people carrying nazi signs guns and signs showing the Potus as a witch doctor are “THE REAL AMERICANS” makes one fear for our country.

Posted by: Jeff at October 7, 2011 12:03 PM
Comment #330181

The bottom line is that there has been no significant violence at Tea Party rallies. Millions of people have been at the rallies, w/o violence.

Yet my silly lefty friend keep on pointing to violence that doesn’t exist. Meanwhile, they ignore actual documented casss of thuggery by union members and leftist protestors.

I repeat this all the time. I am (as Stephen would say) sick of the stupidity that your people exhibit.

When you have an instance of actual significant violence, write it down.

The Tea Party folks have been the most well behaved large movement in the history the the United States. This is the truth, everything else are lies.

Posted by: C&J at October 7, 2011 6:05 PM
Comment #330185

Perhaps Jeff could offer proof concerning the carrying of weapons at the TP rallies.

Posted by: TomT at October 7, 2011 7:20 PM
Comment #330189

“Perhaps Jeff could offer proof concerning the carrying of weapons at the TP rallies”

OK, see here. http://www.nowpublic.com/world/tea-party-protesters-new-mexico-bring-their-big-guns

Posted by: Rich at October 7, 2011 8:45 PM
Comment #330196

Thank you Rich.

Posted by: Jeff at October 8, 2011 9:02 AM
Comment #330201


The tea party is less violent than the Women’s Christian Temperance Movement was. Instead of hatchets, some of the tea party members only carry guns. No tea party member has ever disrupted a public forum?

Obama may wish that the Wall Street protesters were protesting on behalf of his agenda, but the fact is they are out there partly because of Obama’s failure as a leader. If the movement spreads, Obama may try to grab their coattails. Like many a politician, support for this protest is dependent on the political wind. I believe those $35,000 a seat dinners with the Wall Street gang are more important to Obama that the gang on Wall Street.

It is sad when a presidents primary hope for reelection is dependent on convincing enough voters that his replacement would be worse. He will have plenty of corporate dollars to help him make the case.

If these Wall Street protesters don’t resort to violence soon, the right may have to intervene and hire some ringers.

Posted by: jlw at October 8, 2011 4:35 PM
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