No Such Thing as Green Energy

All forms of energy have benefits and risks. Inexpensive fossil fuels, for example, played a part in the remarkable regrowth of forests in Europe and the United States. (I explain below.) Of course, they also produce pollution. You have to look at the whole cycle, from production, to deployment & use to final disposal. We often see only one part. That is why it was interesting to come across an article about riots at a Chinese solar panel factory. The Chinese villagers said the solar plant was poisoning the air and water.

It seems to me that the most environmentally friendly "new" technology is natural gas. New methods have made massive quantities of this available in the United States. It is cheap; it is available AND it is American. In addition, gas can be used in existing technologies to replace coal fired plants. Gas produces very little pollution and only around 1/3 the CO2 of coal. The Obama folks do not need to subsidize natural gas production or provide shaky loan guarantees to politically favored firms or groups. They just have to not be hostile to natural gas development. One reason the Obama stimulus failed is that the Obama folks chose the wrong places to deploy taxpayer money, IMO.

You can see what a robust new energy economy looks like in an American state, BTW, by looking at North Dakota, the state with only 3.3% unemployment. This can work other places too.

It is beyond my understanding why environmentalists and Obama government officials are not embracing gas production, which will create large numbers of American jobs. I am not saying that there are not challenges. We NEED regulations and we need to work on developing better techniques of extraction. This is where environmentalist and the Obama folks can add value.

Natural gas is not perfectly clean. NO form of energy is perfectly clean, as we see from the Chinese solar plant example. Our only viable option is a diversified energy portfolio, taking into account the full life cycle of the energy source and trying to understand collateral connections. There is no one best solution and the most appropriate choices will change as society and technologies develop.

One thing for sure is that fossil fuels will remain a big,probably the biggest part of our energy portfolio for the coming decades. This is just true. We can complain about it and wish it were different, but as my father used to say, put your wish in one hand and sh*t in the other and see which weighs more. We need to recognize and work within real possibilities.

How Fossil Fuels Helped Save Forests

Forests in America and Europe reached their low point between 1900 and 1930. Massive efforts to plant trees and the founding of the U.S. Forest Service, the discovery and promulgation of sustainable forestry methods and organization (such as the American Tree Farm System) all played crucial roles in bring back forests and avert the "timber famine" predicted by experts and leaders like Theodore Roosevelt and Gifford Pinchot, among others. But equally important was a shift in demand. Horsepower provided by actual horses requires pastures and pastures preclude forests. When horses were replaced by tractors & cars, land devoted to growing feed equine transport could be converted to other uses. There was also the shift from wood. Wood was still a dominant fuel in 1900 and people cut forests for fuel in its raw form, or for charcoal used in industrial applications. Beyond that, it is not well understood by many people, but an important collateral product of fossil fuels is fertilizer, which allows greater production on less land, leaving - again - other land free to revert to forest.

Today there are more growing trees in the U.S. than there were in 1850. Take a look at pictures from the Civil War and compare them to what you see today and you will notice the absence of forests then and their presence now. The regrowth of the forests in American and Europe is one of the biggest - and most overlooked - success stories of the latter half of the 20th Century.

One of my fears re a possible biofuels boom is that we may reverse this as land currently occupied by forests is again put into service for the intensive production of biofuel.

Posted by Christine & John at September 18, 2011 12:21 PM
Comments
Comment #329434

Obfuscation, obfuscation, obfuscation.

The basic truth is, any of those factories could be green, if they were being run here, where we don’t put public health so far down on the lists of priorities.

But of course, it wouldn’t be as cheap as some would like it.

Now some would say we need to lower our standards, but that’s nuts. We would only end up getting hit with the consequences of our pollution. And really, have those who promised jobs would be spared if pollution controls were loosened come through? No, they haven’t. Why?

Because nobody can bid so low on labor costs or environmental costs.

Of course we don’t have joggers drop dead of Carbon Monoxide poisoning in our cities, do we? Pollution isn’t some free lunch. There are costs we take up, in healthcare costs and reduction in our effective years of employment that undo many of the benefits.

By the way, we could have cited more of those solar plants here, but unfortunately, Republicans have been opposed to any kind of Keynesian stimulus that didn’t involve handing tax cuts and tax breaks to their friends in the business world on their income.

Whatever the benefits of fossil fuels for forests (debateable if you take into consideration all the droughts killing forests and helping to spread pests that eat them up), that’s no reason for us to continue on that path. We’re not going to go back to horsepower and manpower to run our economy. We’re going to change to a more advanced technology which CAN be green if you handle the wastes properly.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 18, 2011 6:45 PM
Comment #329436

Stephen

But they are not here. And even if they were, they would still need to use the same sorts of chemicals and processes, presumably we Americans are better and more honest than the Chinese (as you imply) and would dispose of them better, but we would still have to dispose of them.

The life cycle analysis is simple but not easy. If in the life cycle of producing x amount of energy, solar produces less pollution than gas, it is better. If it produces more, it is worse. When you look at today’s solar panels, most people concentrate only on their useful life. There are other factors.

You have to ask what panels are made from. How it is obtained. What wastes are produced. How long the panels last under real world conditions. How much power they produce under real world conditions and what happens when they are no longer useful.

Ask the same for gas, oil, nuclear etc. It will not be the same everywhere you go. In southern forest regions, it makes sense to burn wood. In sunny deserts, solar might be an answer. Gas is a good partner for wind power.

Let me ask - what energy would you go with? My guess is that it is one not yet invented. I will agree with you when we have it.

Posted by: C&J at September 18, 2011 7:18 PM
Comment #329439

SD…”By the way, we could have cited more of those solar plants here…”

Well, of course obama could have…he controlled the money. I beleive a half billion in losses and rising is about enough for any fool.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 18, 2011 7:38 PM
Comment #329450

If Stephen Daugherty had his way, we wouldn’t have any energy at all. We would be living in caves. What moronic statements. How many times do we have to state that if you raised taxes on the “rich” (whatever or whoever that is) people, it would do NOTHING for our economy. I don’t know about the rest of you, but I am so fed up with this bullshit global warming religion of the left; I am fed up with their constant wasting of our tax dollars; I am fed up with the constant government regulations that is shutting done businesses and putting people out of work. And I believe I am not the only one, so come next election we are going to kill this leftest socialism once and for all. We are going to send the progressive/liberal socialists back to the stone age. And to those socialist worshippers, you can blame obama for creating such a mess for the democratic party. It will take years for the democrats to recover, if ever. Come to Detroit and see what the socialist have done for our city and businesses. Morons!!!!

Posted by: Bill in Detroit at September 18, 2011 11:33 PM
Comment #329454

“It is beyond my understanding why environmentalists and Obama government officials are not embracing gas production,..”

C&J,

The Obama administration is indeed promoting natural gas as a means of decreasing our dependence on foreign oil and gas. http://www.ngvglobal.com/obamas-energy-blueprint-pushes-natural-gas-to-forefront-0331

Posted by: Rich at September 19, 2011 7:44 AM
Comment #329458

Bill in Detroit-
No, no, the person you’re talking about is my twin, evil Steve. And you no longer have to worry about him, because I killed him in an epic fight atop the Burj Khalifa that involved several thrown monkeys and a prolonged fit about room service.

But such serious matters aside, I’m not that exciting. I’m actually quite pragmatic. I didn’t just get the Honda Insight Hybrid I now own because I felt some sort of liberal guilt, I got it because the SUV my family owns costs a fortune to drive the amount I have to drive, and I personally like the freedom that such long range on such little fuel affords me.

Global climate change isn’t a religion, it’s a reality, and a testable one at that. Scientists are supposed to put theories and hypotheses to the test, but not arbitrarily doubt them simply because they don’t fit a personal political sensibility.

You want power bad enough, you’ll probably get it, but I think you underestimate your appeal and overestimate our liabilities coming into the next election. You have based your politics on your poorly founded fears about liberals like me, and sooner or later people are going to figure out that folks like you are scared of the wrong things.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 19, 2011 10:29 AM
Comment #329459

Royal Flush-
The profits that the Car companies get, especially as more people buy good cars at home, probably will more than make up for that. It’s amazing what tunnel vision your folks have on costs and benefits. I mean, your people lost more money by far by failing to properly keep an eye on money going to Iraq, but hey, that’s a war, and defense costs get a free pass in the GOP.

C&J-
I really doubt that the chemicals used to prepare solar panels are all that different from those used to prepare solar panels. Solar panels have the benefit of a never-ending fuel supply that doesn’t pollute, so whatever costs it takes to supply energy to those panels is minor compared to those required to supply energy to coal or even gas-powered plants, where continual operation requires continual transportation of fossil fuels by one method or another to the plant’s site.

Solar power works best of course with ever-present sunshine, but it really works any time you have light falling on the panel.

The question I would have, is whether you are throwing this argument out there to create uncertainty with an argument from ignorance, or are you actually well informed about the real costs of solar? It sounds like the former, which in my mind just reflects an ideological bias rather than real, informed objection. Anything can be quibbled with. Question is, have you put your ideas to the test?

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 19, 2011 10:39 AM
Comment #329466

SD said:

“I didn’t just get the Honda Insight Hybrid I now own”

Aren’t you one of those on the left complaining about buying products from Walmart because they import cheep foreign junk? Before you begin to defend your purchase of a Honda by saying it was built in America; you might want to consider the profits of the Honda plants goes back overseas and on top of that it was built in a non-union shop, by non-union workers, and in a right to work state. So much for your double standards. It is because of people like you that Bill in Detroit is telling us about the ruin of the city.

As for GW, he is correct, it is the latest of many liberal religions. And as for your tested facts, I say Bull Crap. Go peddle that bilge on the kos, we don’t believe it.

Posted by: Mike at September 19, 2011 1:16 PM
Comment #329470

Mike

You might have to define what bilge is to this young lefty. lol

Posted by: tom humes at September 19, 2011 2:29 PM
Comment #329474

Tom, you’re probably right:) Of course if this lefty had spent time in the Navy, he would know…

Posted by: Mike at September 19, 2011 3:29 PM
Comment #329475

Got that right Mike, I had my tour through the bilge a few times while serving.

Posted by: KAP at September 19, 2011 3:34 PM
Comment #329476

Mike-
I bought what fit my needs. If there was a domestic car which did so, I would have bought that. I favor regulations that will ensure that cars like those I want on the domestic market will be in better supply next time.

Meanwhile you criticize me in that fashion, while probably having opposed Obama’s rescue of the domestic car industry, and while definitely opposing unions and dealing with efficiency and carbon emissions.

I have to live with the market as people like you have made it, and so do those people in Detroit. People like you have associated being wasteful with being prosperous, and help resist our becoming more competitive concerning fuel economy and everything else. Now that it’s being required, suddenly the car companies are finding new ways to increasing efficiency.

My side pushes our domestic industry to get better, and it starts being competitive again. Your side pushes— well, it would have gladly left our domestic industry to its own devices, to collapse, leaving Americans with no alternative to imports, and foreign car makers.

So, to review, I supported policies and a President who kept America in the game, and chose a foreign car which fit my needs, thus driving competition, while your side supported the entire domestic industry cratering, which would have driven millions out of their jobs, and lessened competition.

Oh, I am such an awful person.

As for Global Warming? Well, in my actual religion, I can’t go out there and with a gauge determine the presence of God. Scientists actually went out there and measured temperature and CO2, and the model is built on basic thermodynamics. The real uncertainty comes from the response of the complex interactions of atmospheric physics and climate.

The Real question is not whether heat will be retained by the new CO2, which quite plainly it will, it’s what the consequences of that will be. We’re not in an oven, baking evenly on all sides, we’re on a planet, with all kinds of different systems interacting.

You can believe it or not believe it, but you can go out there and test these things for yourself, run the equations for yourself, etc. You don’t have to depend on the authority of a priest, a preacher, or whatever else to confirm things. That’s the beauty of science when it comes to the natural world.

As for what the bilge is, I suppose you mean bilge water, which is the nasty stuff that gets pumped out of the bottom of a ship. As for your disbelief, it changes nothing. The theory I promote can and has been verified on the merits. Only by ignoring those merits do you come to other conclusions. You don’t have the evidence to prove the alternative theory, but you probably won’t admit this.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 19, 2011 3:35 PM
Comment #329484


Lots of liberals buy Honda’s.

One way in which Honda has avoided unionization has been to pay workers a wage and benefits comparable to union auto workers. That is changing.

The new Honda plant in Indiana may have trouble with unionization, even though they have taken measures to avoid UAW applicants, because workers there will be paid significantly less than other auto workers, including those at the Honda plant in Ohio. Even the executives may want to join the union at the Indiana plant.

Honda offering early retirement packages, plans to cut wages and hours at Ohio plant.

Ohio parts supplier lays off 130 workers. Others to follow suit as Honda lays off 150 workers and cuts production.

Honda is currently embarked on a mission to significantly cut wages for workers and especially executives at U.S. plants.


Bilge? Isn’t that where the crap came from that used to cover the Ohio River and the vegetation along it’s banks when I was young? Why doesn’t it surprise me that conservatives like to wallow in the bilge?

If MMGW is a religion, it is the only religion that has credible evidence supporting it’s existence. What a refreshing thought, a fact based religion rather than a faith based one.

Where are the facts supporting the conservatives Free Market religion? A religion where buggering is a test of faith.

Liberals bow to MMGW and conservatives bend over for wealth.

Posted by: jlw at September 19, 2011 5:11 PM
Comment #329485

Stephen

“I mean, the basic problem here, is what if the people who you set up as the elite in government and in our economy are no better at figuring things out than the rest us?”

You have become a conservative. This is the basic question I always ask. Now ask it again and then tell me why you still trust government planners so much.

Unlike you, I really make real world decisions. I have looked into solar for a house I was building. It was way to expensive. It would NEVER pay back, since in the time it took to pay back, it is likely the roof would need to be replaced. They technology is not ready in many places. If it was we would all do it already.

Despite what you think you know about me, I have always been a strong proponent of alternative energies and know a lot more than you do about them, which is why I take a more nuanced approach. I will also give you another real world situation. When I was in Iraq I wanted to push solar and wind. They have a lot of both those things in the western deserts. We paid for several solar installations, but they failed to deliver results and we had to default to diesel generators. Why? There is lots of dust in the desert. Dust accumulates on the solar panels at rates “you people” cannot imagine. It stops the panels from working. You can try to get someone to go out and clean them every couple hours, but it is hard to keep a maintenance schedule like that in distant places, or any place at all.

I really think you need to get out more and actually try some of those ideas you so easily spew.


You think that we are all stupid, that we don’t use these technologies because we are just ignorant.

Let me make it real simple. Alternatives work well in some places and some situations, but not all. I expect that they will develop and then become standard instead of alternative. Many of us are as smart as you are and most of us have more actual experience. When alternatives become viable, we will use them more. There is no nefarious plan to keep them out. When they make sense, we will use them. After all, aren’t we greedy enough to do things that will make us money?

Posted by: C&J at September 19, 2011 5:13 PM
Comment #329486

jlw

I have owned a Honda Hybrid since 2005, but I often ride my bike to work or take public transportation.

Liberals always think that somehow they have better, cleaner or more generous habits. I bet that no liberals on Watchblog have a generally greener lifestyle than I do. From what I know of others, I find it generally true that conservatives do better and liberals talk about doing it better.

Posted by: C&J at September 19, 2011 5:17 PM
Comment #329489

Mike said:

“Go peddle that bilge on the kos”

Actually the bilge is contained in your comments, as you did not have a single comment correct.

The Honda Insight was built in a Union shop, which is located in Japan. Honda is a publicly owned global company that participates interactively in a global economy, and resides in a nation that participates in a global economy. It is not a Chinese company that are the main suppliers of the cheap goods in Walmart, and that are owned directly or indirectly by the Chinese government.

Nor can you consider the hybrid a “cheap” knock off of cars built in the United States, as Japanese automakers took the lead in hybrid car development and sales here and throughout the world.

On the bright side, no one can accuse you of double standards, as I see no standards at all in your comments.

Posted by: Cube at September 19, 2011 5:29 PM
Comment #329492


“It seems to me that the most environmentally friendly “new” technology is natural gas.”

Sure is if you ignore things like earthquakes in Virginia. Is it possible that fracking caused that earth quake? Only if you have an open mind.

France is considering a ban on fracking because of disasters caused by it in the U.S.

Giant black tents, with wind mills for heat energy, on the tundra would be just as environmentally friendly as fracking for collecting methane. Less expensive as well.

The most environmentally friendly way to collect methane is to tie bags to cows asses. Why drill miles deep into the earth when short pieces of rubber hose attached to bags will suffice. All we have to do to increase natural gas production is greatly increase the number of cows. This would have an added benefit, prime rib will be $0.10 per lb. Hamburger will be so cheap you won’t be able to meter it.

Ah, the free market religion.

Posted by: jlw at September 19, 2011 5:54 PM
Comment #329494


“liberals always think that somehow they have better, cleaner or more generous habits.”

I have never heard liberals saying that. It is just another conservative talking point which like many other conservative talking points is lean on evidence. I think that liberals think we, including liberals, can all do better if we rely more on facts, reasoning and logic, and less on rhetoric designed to protect the status quo and the special interests associated with it. Personally, I believe that approach is far more becoming of humans than swallowing the corporate propaganda then regurgitating it hook, line and sinker.

Posted by: jlw at September 19, 2011 6:16 PM
Comment #329499

C&J-
I assume that the folks in charge can be any level of expertise. I don’t take for granted that they will be the excellent leaders that they need to be or that they will not be. Mine is not a passive assumption about the people in charge, it’s an active call to get the best people in charge, rather than run them off as too professorial.

As for what you know? Let’s not get into that game as an abstract. It is fully believeable to me that dust would be a problem in Iraq or other deserts. It’s also believeable that in many places, roof changing to get solar panels in place would be infeasible.

But I’m going to treat those as challenges, not roadblocks in the way of doing something, much less a reason to stick with fossil fuels indefinitely.

I don’t think ignorance is the GOP’s biggest problem. Misinformation is, good information replaced by bad.

What you might need to realize is that your views are not standard among conservatives, and some would treat you as an apostate for believing that such things might be real or feasible.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 19, 2011 6:40 PM
Comment #329500

SD

Are you not proud of Government Motors giving $5,000 bonuses to 48,000 employees? They make $56 an hour and get a $5,000 bonus. That was done so Obama could add them to the rich and wealthy people to tax with his “new plan”.

Obama’s campaign song: “Let Me Call You Sweetheart”

Maranatha

Posted by: tom humes at September 19, 2011 6:51 PM
Comment #329509

Tom Humes,

General Motors has recovered sufficiently to provide bonuses to its workers and you are upset? Go, figure.

Posted by: Rich at September 19, 2011 7:58 PM
Comment #329519

Stephen said:

“As for what the bilge is, I suppose you mean bilge water, which is the nasty stuff that gets pumped out of the bottom of a ship.”

Great answer; I gave you the Navy hint and you were able to Google it. Will leftist miracles never end?

“Mike-

I bought what fit my needs. If there was a domestic car which did so, I would have bought that. I favor regulations that will ensure that cars like those I want on the domestic market will be in better supply next time.”

You guys on the left are a joke; you whine and cry about jobs going overseas and cry about buying union made goods, and cry about the evil Wal-Mart that pays minimum wage and sells Chinese products. Then when the big test comes to buy the second most expensive thing in most households (the auto), you buy a Jap car. It shows the pure hypocrisy and double standards of your pathetic lives, and to top it off, you try to justify what you have done. How pathetic. You support obama’s stimulus programs that are supposed to pump money back into the economy and then you send your money overseas. What’s the matter SD, don’t you like the failed Chevy Volt put out by obama’s Government Motors?

As for GW; you’re still pushing a dead horse. You guys on the left are always a day late and a dollar short. Nobody gives a crap about GW, in fact most Americans are upset at the EPA and obama for continuing to try to push Cap and Trade through the EPA and by-passing the Congress. It’s not high on peoples priority lists right now…

C&J: Stephen bought a Jap car because it was cheaper than the union made American car. He can blow all the cheap smoke he wants, but we know that he looked for the best deal. Which is the capitalist way? Yes, he thinks everyone else is stupid; have you ever met or heard a liberal who didn’t think he knew it all and everyone else was stupid? I heated my house with alternative fuel for years, it was called wood; I chopped down the trees and burnt them in a stove. My dad heated our house with alternative fuels when we were kids; we went through several tons of coal every winter. I just wonder how long it will be before the socialist will try to outlaw the burning of wood to heat houses? Coal is already out, because obama is shutting down all the coal mines and putting the union coal miners out of work.

Cube said:

“The Honda Insight was built in a Union shop, which is located in Japan. Honda is a publicly owned global company that participates interactively in a global economy, and resides in a nation that participates in a global economy. It is not a Chinese company that are the main suppliers of the cheap goods in Walmart, and that are owned directly or indirectly by the Chinese government.”

Thank you for that information Cube, but Japan has been shipping Hondas to the US probably since before you were born. By the way Cube, about 60 years ago, liberals and union workers were complaining about the cheap Japanese electronics and junk being imported from Japan. But today they complain about Chinese junk.

The Japanese took the lead in making better autos the American unions in the 70’s, and when the price of gas shot up in the mid-70’s, the Japs took over the market and it’s been downhill for the big three ever since. It is the unions that have put the American auto makers out of business. And they would have been out of business if the government wasn’t so keen to use the taxpayer’s money to bail them out.

“Tom Humes,
General Motors has recovered sufficiently to provide bonuses to its workers and you are upset? Go, figure.”
Posted by: Rich at September 19, 2011 7:58 PM

And has the Government motors paid back the taxpayers, go figure…

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2011/may/26/are-auto-companies-paid-up-american-taxpayers/

Posted by: Mike at September 19, 2011 11:01 PM
Comment #329522

Rich

Where do you find they have recovered other than leftist toilets?

The bonuses are $240 million of money, that because of the deal with GM, the American taxpayer is going on the hook for.

That is not recovery. That is theft.

Maranatha

Posted by: tom humes at September 20, 2011 12:24 AM
Comment #329525

Mike and Tom,

GM and Chrysler turned profitable after the structured bankruptcies, repaid the outright loans and the successful IPO of GM has allowed the government to recover through stock sales a substantial portion of its investment in GM stock. The government could hang onto the stocks and get a better return. But the Obama administration wants out of the stock ownership business.

The bonus payments are profit sharing agreements in lieu of permanent salary increases. The UAW has agreed to a new contract with a no-strike provision and has cooperated with management in efforts to lower the overall labor costs.

The bottom line is that anywhere from 1 million to 3 million jobs were saved by the bailouts. Those jobs will return tax revenue to the government in the long run that will more than offset any losses on the bailouts.

A major industry was saved along with 1-3 million jobs. Yet, all we hear from conservatives is criticism.

Posted by: Rich at September 20, 2011 8:29 AM
Comment #329526
But they are not here.
Said the man from the whip and buggy industry. Posted by: Tom Jefferson at September 20, 2011 8:41 AM
Comment #329535

Rich, this is BS. Did you read the link that was provided? GM and Chrysler both owe the taxpayers money. They have not recovered and the jobs were not saved. All BS. The only way these union workers will be able to hang on to their jobs is to have another bailout. As long as the socialists are willing to use he taxpayers money, they will have jobs; but when the flow is cut off, they will be in trouble again. I wouldn’t own a GM or Chysler if it was given to me and we know how the liberals feel about GM and Chrysler; just ask SD. He bought a Jap car. So much for the liberal support of the unions, hahaha.

With the conservatives controlling the House and the voters screaming “no more bailouts”; the slush fund has dried up. Poor old obama; he’s out there saying the same old worn out campaign speeches, hoping to gain support for his socialist programs. As Carville said, it’s time for him to panic. He’s done, toast, has been, pack your bags and head for Chicago, the home of the thugs and mob.

Posted by: Mike at September 20, 2011 10:55 AM
Comment #329546

tom humes-
That per-hour quote you use Includes cost from legacy workers and non-cash compensation like healthcare, not to mention other costs, and then pulls an average from that.

Essentially, your figure is BS. The take home pay for an entry level worker is in the teens, a longer-term worker in the twenties or thirties.

But I am proud they got a bonus. See, I’m proud of the little guys getting compensated. I think that’s a lot more defensible than the million dollar bonuses Republicans were quick to defend for those who had just crashed the market.

You think there’s something wrong with rewarding work? Oh maybe if we cut wages and benefits, people will be encouraged to work harder!

Mike-
It must be nice for you to put politics ahead of your interests. You must be misunderstanding my attitudes. I believe in competition. That doesn’t mean I will take a more expensive car that does less of what I need it to, simply to satisfy a superficial political ideal.

Yes, I would have loved to have found a car from Ford, GM, or Chrysler that fit my criteria. I don’t have this silly tendency to want to make political statements with my choice of vehicle, though, so I was open to cars from any brand.

Personally, I have no objection to occasionally burning wood in my family’s fireplace, nor to new woodburning ovens which are more efficient. But damn, what business does 21st America have deliberately planting it’s butt in 19th century fuel sources and refusing to budge? It might make a few people rich, but it’s not doing our economy any good.

As for your trash talk? I’d really like to know if there’s any place which will not be portrayed as being a den of iniquity by the time the Republicans are done.

As for Carville? Let Carville panic. Obama doesn’t panic. Not like Republicans who put their campaigns on hold just to fail to reassure the economy. Not like Republicans who turn to a the John Birch wing of their party, which the figures who made their party a success pushed to the fringe.

Obama’s going to keep his cool, Republicans are not, and that’s why Obama will win.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 20, 2011 1:59 PM
Comment #329558

SD

And if you are going that route your numbers are also incomplete using your sense of “reasoning” and therefore BS.

I was using the logic that an amount of money and number of jobs have a ratio to establish a value. And when that same conformity is used, then the pix is developed. Many people use that method.

Your response was actually a cheap shot. But, I know you don’t use cheap shots. Then call it what ever substitute name you care to. YOUR PEOPLE will be proud of you.

“…and that’s why Obama will win.”

Reminds me of an NFL Championship game back in the ‘40’s. Washington and Chicago were meeting for the Championship. Washington was to show up play the game and go home the winner. Chicago had different plans. Final score and still record of biggest margin and most points.

Chicago 70 Washington 0


Maranatha

Posted by: tom humes at September 20, 2011 6:36 PM
Comment #329563

SD said, “As for Carville? Let Carville panic. Obama doesn’t panic.”

Stephen, your comments show just how ignorant you are; it isn’t just Carville. The left is bailing on Obama big time. Even the CBC said they would be protesting at the doors of the WH if Obama wasn’t black. The only ones left supporting this stupid SOB are you liberals on WB. As for Obama not panicking, he’s too stupid to panic. But the rest of the democrats are panicking. There’s even talk that he is losing it; but I will say one thing, his same old speeches are showing us he’s about to crack. It’s almost like he lives in his own little world. He keeps saying the same thing over and over and is trying to convince the Congress to support his same old worn out failed policies. What a joke. He can’t even get his own party to support him.

I wonder how many Democrats wish they had voted for Clinton. I know there’s plenty of talk about her running against him. I figure he’ll pull a Johnson and drop out.

Posted by: Mike at September 20, 2011 9:38 PM
Comment #329564

Stephen

“But I’m going to treat those as challenges, not roadblocks in the way of doing something, much less a reason to stick with fossil fuels indefinitely.”

There is a reasonable alternative. Research into solar does not require widespread deployment of half finished technology.

Rich & Stephen

Rich points out that the Obama folks are pushing natural gas. Now Stephen will need to fall into line.

Posted by: C&J at September 20, 2011 9:39 PM
Comment #329568

tom humes-
Don’t give me that crap. If you’re going to average something, average actual wages and compensation. Anything else is a misleading use of math, a technique that obscures rather than revealing the truth.

It’s not a cheap shot to tell the truth. The cheap shot is to make up funky math and use vicious ad hominem premises for your argument that amount to an unfounded savaging of somebody’s reputation.

I hold your people accountable for the policies and ideas they support. The truth of that is out there, ready to be harvested. Folks like me and Obama can take the plain truth of what your policies mean in the real world, and use it against you.

As Harry Truman once said to somebody telling him to give ‘em hell, no, I’d give them the truth, and they’ll think it’s hell.

Well, I threw the facts back in your face, and you thought that was unfair thing to do. Color me unsympathetic.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 20, 2011 11:52 PM
Comment #329570

Mike-
Have you noticed that your post consists entirely of you telling me that Obama is being abandoned, and that he’ll lose…

Trash talk. That’s all you have to offer.

C&J-
There’s nothing half-finished about those technologies. Your approach resembles the thinking of Intelligent design advocates, who insist on the irreducible complexity of a lifeform to refute evolution.

But here as there, we don’t need the perfected technology. Hell, the internal combustion engine has plenty of room for improvement, as new technology is demonstrating, yet we uses that technology in all kinds of different stages of quality over the years, improving as time went on.

Talking about waiting for it to mature entirely is just a stalling tactic, and one that reflects an obvious bias.

Solar gets better everyday It’s already pretty good. I read the articles about the advances every day. Wind has become so widespread, especially in my neck of the woods (I’m talking Texas here), that it’s displacing a significant portion of my state’s fossil fuel plants as a source of energy.

More research, by all means. But I think we’re well passed the point where we need to withhold this stuff from the market to make sure it works. Now’s the time to refine it, to improve it out in the real world.

As for Obama pushing natural gas? We can disagree with Obama on a few things, without declaring him apostate and anathema. In fact, we ought to, when the facts say we should, and then we should try to convince Obama to change his mind.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 21, 2011 12:04 AM
Comment #329576

“Hell, the internal combustion engine has plenty of room for improvement, as new technology is demonstrating, yet we uses that technology in all kinds of different stages of quality over the years, improving as time went on.”

This is true, Stephen, but we didn’t outlaw the horse during the development and the government didn’t force taxpayers to pay for the improvements to the internal combustion engine.

Posted by: tdobson at September 21, 2011 7:07 AM
Comment #329578

While energy development is clearly a key to our future economic competitiveness, there has been a disturbing and surprising decline over the past few decades in energy R&D by the US in both the public and private sector.

http://apolloalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/energy-policy-us-energy-rd-20072.pdf

http://thebreakthrough.org/blog/2011/02/china_rd_investment_to_grow_fa.shtml

Why? Why has the US increased investment in defense related R&D but not in energy? Why has the private sector energy industry declined to invest in energy R&D (less than .3% of revenue)? We have vigorous investment by both the public and private sector in other R&D areas, but not in energy. Puzzling to me.

Posted by: Rich at September 21, 2011 8:02 AM
Comment #329583

Stephen opined:

“Mike-
Have you noticed that your post consists entirely of you telling me that Obama is being abandoned, and that he’ll lose…
Trash talk. That’s all you have to offer.”

The latest polls from Quinnipiac University Polling Institute show a 10-14% drop in support for Obama in the key states such as OH, FL, VA, NC, IN, and others. His approval in these states has gone from an average of 52-54% down to 40-42%.

A drop in Jewish support:

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/19/news/la-pn-obama-jewish-vote-20110919

A drop in Hispanic support:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/us-election/8774230/With-Hispanic-support-for-Obama-waning-could-Latino-vote-be-up-for-grabs-in-2012.html

A general overall disapproval of Obama and his policies are on the rise, from a liberal MSM poll:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20107584-503544.html

A disapproval of the CBC:

“As chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus, [Cleaver] has been at odds with President Barack Obama over his administration’s response to the soaring unemployment rate in the African-American community.
Nearing 17 percent, joblessness among blacks is at a three-decade high and almost twice the size of the overall unemployment rate. The black caucus wants the president to do more.
But the group’s efforts are freighted with political sensitivities, given Obama’s unique role as the first African-American occupant of the White House and the sometimes untethered animosity that his election has triggered.
“If (former President) Bill Clinton had been in the White House and had failed to address this problem, we probably would be marching on the White House,” Cleaver said. “There is a less-volatile reaction in the CBC because nobody wants to do anything that would empower the people who hate the president.”

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/09/18/cbcs-cleaver-we-would-be-marching-on-the-white-house-if-obama-werent-president/

Now Stephen, you can call this trash talk if you want, but I call it a trend.

Posted by: Mike at September 21, 2011 9:52 AM
Comment #329595

SD

I used what most people use. A cost/jobs ratio. That is a simple fact. Sorry you disagree with simple fact.

Don’t overload.

Maranatha

Posted by: tom humes at September 21, 2011 1:44 PM
Comment #329598


Mike, what do the polls say about the Republican candidates and their chances of beating Obama?

What do the polls say about Republicans in general, how popular is the party?

Everything has to be taken in context. Sure the people are down on Obama. That doesn’t mean they are up on Republicans or that they will reject Obama for a Republican.

The only Republican candidate that is polling with Obama is Romney and he’s a socialist RINO. He is worse than Boehner, another socialist RINO, if one is to believe Boehner’s tea party opposition in the upcoming primary.

So, if Romney wins the nomination, it will be a socialist vs a socialist in the next presidential election.

I didn’t vote for Obama the last time because he gave me no reasons for why I should. He still hasn’t given be a reason to vote for him, but the conservatives sure have.

Posted by: jlw at September 21, 2011 2:09 PM
Comment #329602

tom humes-
If you used a cost/jobs ratio on me and my workplace, you would vastly overestimate my earnings. Your estimate is based on faulty premises.

Mike-
Republicans tend to see the very trends they try to force to occur through their efforts. But what are Republicans up against now? They’re up against the fact that they spent most of their campaigns last year talking up jobs, and most of their time in Congress killing them.

Besides, if we went by your standards, then Reagan should have never been re-elected. That’s the funny thing, isn’t it? Polls go up, polls go down. Obama’s polls can go up, and will go up, I think, the more he’s seen as a fighter.

And guess what? Obama can fight for the things people want. Like Jobs. Like seeing the folks making money hand over fist pay their fair share. He can do better than dress elitist policies in populist clothing. He can push actually populist legislation.

You have to hide behind Job Creators, in order to hornswaggle big tax cuts for the people in this country who actually have spare cash, in order to criticize measure that give money to the folks who actually need it, for doing things the country actually needs done.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 21, 2011 2:56 PM
Comment #329605

SD

These numbers are for the common man. We are not using scientific analysis nor math here. The media uses the same way I use and it is for understanding a pix. Your method, well, you have no method, otherwise there would be a litany of items to take into consideration and you don’t know what they are. We are talking about communications between people and quantum physics. Get with it kid and make some sense.

Posted by: tom humes at September 21, 2011 4:28 PM
Comment #329606

Jlw said, “Mike, what do the polls say about the Republican candidates and their chances of beating Obama?”

Well it’s hard to say jlw, because there are probably more candidates coming. But overall Rasmussen has generic Republicans beating Obama for many months. In fact yesterday’s poll showed Obama 42% and Republican 47%. Don’t guess we will know for sure how bad Obama will be beat until we nominate a candidate.

“What do the polls say about Republicans in general, how popular is the party?”

Doesn’t matter, the only polls showing Democrats and Republicans in general are the Congressional polls and they can’t be accurate, because Republicans vote against dems for being too liberal and against Repubs for not being conservative enough, and visa versa.

“Everything has to be taken in context. Sure the people are down on Obama. That doesn’t mean they are up on Republicans or that they will reject Obama for a Republican.”

No, but it does mean they will stay home. If I were as upset with a Republican and the left is with Obama; I would just stay home, and that is what a lot will do.

“The only Republican candidate that is polling with Obama is Romney and he’s a socialist RINO. He is worse than Boehner, another socialist RINO, if one is to believe Boehner’s tea party opposition in the upcoming primary.”

Sorry big boy, the word “Socialist” s reserved for your party. They may be RINO’s, but a RINO is better than the idiot we now have in office. So, I would vote for a RINO if I had too.

“I didn’t vote for Obama the last time because he gave me no reasons for why I should. He still hasn’t given be a reason to vote for him, but the conservatives sure have.”

So you are just another liberal mouthpiece who actually doesn’t vote. The way I figure it, you don’t have any right to say anything, one way or the other. But if you like the way the country is going, by all means vote for the idiot obama.

“Mike-

Republicans tend to see the very trends they try to force to occur through their efforts. But what are Republicans up against now? They’re up against the fact that they spent most of their campaigns last year talking up jobs, and most of their time in Congress killing them.

Besides, if we went by your standards, then Reagan should have never been re-elected. That’s the funny thing, isn’t it? Polls go up, polls go down. Obama’s polls can go up, and will go up, I think, the more he’s seen as a fighter.

And guess what? Obama can fight for the things people want. Like Jobs. Like seeing the folks making money hand over fist pay their fair share. He can do better than dress elitist policies in populist clothing. He can push actually populist legislation.

You have to hide behind Job Creators, in order to hornswaggle big tax cuts for the people in this country who actually have spare cash, in order to criticize measure that give money to the folks who actually need it, for doing things the country actually needs done.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 21, 2011 2:56 PM

Stephen, by your warped mentality, Republicans are killing jobs simply because they refuse to cave to liberal socialist spending programs.

“He’s a fighter” is the latest liberal talking point. Thank you for not disappointing me with your continual repeating of liberal talking points. Your “jobs” and “paying fair share” is more liberal talking points.

In fact Stephen, every argument you make is nothing more than the latest liberal talking points. At some point one would think you would stop trying to defend Obama’s every failure; but you don’t. Talking to you is like “Groundhog Day”. The US economy and jobs situation has grown continually worse, the debt has grown, and unemployment is terrible and yet if we were to go back 3 years and look at your comments…they are the very same. In fact, exactly the same.

Obama speech at the UN today was a mixture of infantile and campaigning. It is more of the same, every time he opens his mouth.

Posted by: Mike at September 21, 2011 5:10 PM
Comment #329614

Now Stephen, you can call this trash talk if you want, but I call it a trend.

Posted by: Mike at September

Mike, thanks for all the links supporting what you wrote. SD is on the edge of panic and your links give him shivers up his spine. So… he uses “trash talk”…like whistling while walking through the cemetery. It’s a very scary time for liberals as they see their policies being defeated along with their leaders.

Posted by: Royal Flush at September 21, 2011 6:31 PM
Comment #329621

Stephen

You are the one with the “intelligent design” idea. You have decided the solar is the end goal; even though it is not ready now, you want to deploy it. Imagine locking yourself into computer technology of 1995.

Wouldn’t have you been better off doing an evolutionary process and deploying as things actually are ready?

Posted by: C&J at September 21, 2011 9:15 PM
Comment #329627

“Wouldn’t have you been better off doing an evolutionary process and deploying as things actually are ready.”

C&J,

You make a good point about not committing substantial resources to technologies such as solar until they are ready. On the other hand, waiting until we have the perfect mouse trap seems to me to be equally wrong.

In 1995, we were deploying computer resources to the extent that the technology permitted. We were developing software and deploying that software (internet). It wasn’t perfect and the majority of the hardware and software is now obsolete. But, it was only through that experiential process that we developed a more powerful and beneficial technology.

It should be noted that many of the advances in computer technology was derived from government supported research and technology programs (NASA, Defense, etc.). In the absence of such support, the promise of computer technology would have withered on the vine or been delayed for decades.

In a previous post, I provided a cite from the National Science Foundation pointing out the relative lack of R&D in the energy field by both the private and government sectors. To me, that fact was shocking considering the importance of energy to our future economic well being.

Solar energy has much of the same promise that computer technology had in the 50s. But, if we sit on our hands, it will never be realized.

Posted by: Rich at September 21, 2011 10:24 PM
Comment #329628

Here’s a good one and they say it’s real. What a joke we have sitting in the WH.

http://photoblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/09/20/7862290-barack-obama-joins-open-government-partnership-for-group-photo

Posted by: Mike at September 21, 2011 10:48 PM
Comment #329629

RIch

I think we should deploy first where it makes sense. For example, solar makes a lot of sense in isolated places.

It is being deployed and it is developing.

One reason there is relatively little investment in solar is that is still doesn’t make much sense.

If you look at the innovation of products, you see that very often government piles into the wrong things. We saw that in synfuels with Carter.

Take our computer example, again. Government did not foresee the spread of personal computers. In fact, experts said that there would be no market for that sort of thing.

Maybe the current trajectory of solar is wrong. Think about all the cash the Japanese government poured into its HDTV. Then a different technology was used.

Posted by: C&J at September 21, 2011 10:50 PM
Comment #329630

Mike

Is that a real picture or is it doctored. I cannot believe that President Obama would actually do that.

Posted by: C&J at September 21, 2011 10:52 PM
Comment #329636

C&J, I heard about the incident all day yesterday, on the radio. Last night I found it on the internet. They are saying it is real and not photo shopped. Who knows; but nothing surprises me with Obama. But I have also heard he is having a mental breakdown; perhaps this is the reason for a vacation very month. I personally think he is in way over his head and has from the beginning allowed his cabinet to run the show. If you listen to his speeches, he almost becomes incoherent; he says the same things over and over and he contradicts himself. His speeches sound like he is completely ignorant of what his cabinet members and czars are doing. I heard some of his speech at the UN yesterday and he is trying to appease everyone in the same speech. He is against the Palestinians pushing statehood in the UN and he supports Israel, but at the same time he is for a Palestinian state and believes Israel should go back to pre-1967 borders. How can the world or individual nations ever understand where America stands when such mixed messages are going out? It is on this basis that we see continued economic problems; how can companies ever begin to grow or hire when there are continuous mixed messages? He was for extending the tax cuts and now he is against them, and the list goes on.

Posted by: Mike at September 22, 2011 8:59 AM
Comment #329807

tom humes-
Numbers for the Common Man?

How patronizing can you get? The common man deserves the truth. They don’t deserve deceptive averages, meant to gull them into making decisions that don’t help them.

You have no business knocking scientific analysis. Scientific analysis democratizes knowledge. It holds everybody to the same standards, and makes the truth itself the measure of the strength of a claim, rather than arbitrary authority.

I think I make perfect sense: if you want to know how much people really make, survey the wage earners, or better yet, look at actual terms of compensation. Look at the conditions of what people have to do under Union contracts to get whatever level of compensation they get.

Mike-
Your arguments all too often seem to be built on trashing me, not responding to my points. My point to you would be that Obama can act natural, play to his own politics, when it comes to offering people what they want. He doesn’t have to flip-flop, or do a politically suicidal end-run around his own party.

He can offer job-creating legislation without having the mainstream of his party complain about Keynesian economics being bad. He can talk about reining in industry with regulation, and be seen as leading a charge Democrats actually want, rather than be seen as an apostate.

Obama can give people what they want from government with less political risk.

See, the problem with all your candidates is that really being populist, in the direct and intuitive way that works best, is walking on eggshells at best for Republicans.

The US economy and jobs situation has grown continually worse, the debt has grown, and unemployment is terrible and yet if we were to go back 3 years and look at your comments…they are the very same. In fact, exactly the same.

Continually worse? You’ll have to explain to me How adding jobs most months since the beginning of last year, or bringing back growth from the worst recession from the great recession is “making things continually worse.

I guess this is a situation where you expect your rhetoric to carry people where your facts can’t shoulder the load.

Let’s compare this to Bush, Shall we? He doesn’t even get job increases after his recovery from a much shallower recession. More than that, the next recession we get into, having let the mortgage lenders have their fun, kills four million jobs and 8.9% of GDP at an annualized rate before his successor even walks in the door. He doesn’t even create enough jobs over the course of his administration to keep up with population growth.

His initial conditions are way better than Obamas, yet he doesn’t do half as good.

If my comments are consistent, it’s because I don’t let folks bully me into revising history so their folks can reclaim political power they don’t deserve to wield.

As for the photo? If you want to read a mountain of BS into it, I guess I can’t prevent you. I mean, I read through the comments, and people are diagnosing Narcissistic Personality Disorder off of it. Oh, by the way, there were multiple takes of the same photo, so the poor fellow wasn’t permanently blocked.

You just had a leader who sunk our markets into the worse recession in decades, who let an American city languish in the aftermath of a disaster, who let Wall Street break this nation’s homeowners, who more or less let two wars we should have been out of almost a decade ago become two wars we’re struggling to get out of without repeating something like the Saigon Embassy photo.

So, I guess, you folks need the other fellow to be an embarrassment. You need to call him names, hamstring him at every opportunity, because if he’s allowed to shine, then your party will have lost its opportunity to live down the worst President it’s foisted on us in decades.

I take your party’s persistent need to make him look bad as a sure sign that your party’s desperately at a loss for real leadership. You can’t elevate yourselves, so you will bring everybody else to your own level. The trouble for you will be that this President’s intelligence, his wit and his wits, will shine through everytime he is put to the test.

Obama’s not the one having the mental breakdown. It’s the folks who think that the best way to win the next election will be to hold disaster relief funds hostage to budget cuts, who really think that debt and deficits means more emotionally to people than taking care of their own and getting people back to work.

Have fun selling that to people. The Republicans seem intent on getting everybody angry with them.

Royal Flush-
Panic? You’re sitting behind a computer screen, typing these words at me, and you think you can drive me into a state of panic? What torture is next, the comfy chair?

C&J-
It’s being deployed now, on a large scale. If you kept up with non-political science, the way I do, you would know this. As for locking yourself into computer technology in 1995? There’s something called a replacement cycle. You commit yourself to the current technology, let that work for you, and then you upgrade later as you are able to.

If you never commit to technology until it’s perfected, well then you’ll never use it. Technology evolves towards better function by people using it and testing its capabilities in the real world. Also, you’re a market person: tell me who pays for the technology to be perfected, if it never has a chance to be deployed?

Nothing works ideally at the beginning, but stuff doesn’t have to work ideally at the beginning to be useful at that point.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 26, 2011 4:39 PM
Comment #372106

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Emporio Armani AR0594 Men?s Chronograph Mango Rubber Strap Watch
Emporio Armani AR0595 mens sports style rubber strap designer watch
Emporio Armani AR0597 Men’s Sport Chronograph watch
Emporio Armani AR0599 Mens Sport Rubber Strap Date Watch
Emporio Armani AR0619 Leather Gents Chronograph Watch
Emporio Armani AR0624 Stainless Gents Watch
Emporio Armani AR0627 Sports Divers Mens Quartz Watch
Emporio Armani AR0628 Sports Divers Mens Quartz Movement Watch
Emporio Armani AR0629 Unisex Rubber Quartz Watch Black Dial
Emporio Armani AR0630 Mens Stainless Steel Bracelet Watch
Emporio Armani AR0631 Men’s Sport Black Textured Dial Black Rubber Watch
Emporio Armani AR0632 Classic Mens Designer Posh Watch
Emporio Armani AR0633 Sport Analogue Stainless Steel Bracelet Silver Dial Series Watch
Emporio Armani AR0634 Men’s Chronograph Black Rubber Watch
Emporio Armani AR0635 Quartz Gunmetal Gray Dial Black Leather Watch
Emporio Armani AR0643 Black Dial Men’s Watch
Emporio Armani AR0646 Classic Womens Designer Watch
Emporio Armani AR0649 Sport Chronograph Blue Rubber Band Blue Dial Series Watch
Emporio Armani AR0653 Sport Analogue Black Rubber Strap Black Dial Series Watch
Emporio Armani AR0654 White Silicon Strap SPORT WATCH
Emporio Armani AR0655 Orange Rubber Strap Designer Sports Watch
Emporio Armani AR0656 Men’s Classic Silver Stainless Steel Quartz Watch
Emporio Armani AR0658 Mens Chronograph Rubber Sports Watch
Emporio Armani AR0660 Men’s Silver Stainless-Steel Quartz Watc Watch
Emporio Armani AR0661 Men’s Black/Grey Rubber Watch
Emporio Armani AR0662 Mens Sports White Designer Watch
Emporio Armani AR0666 Chronograph Watch Silver Dial Mens Quartz
Emporio Armani AR0665 Men’s Chronograph Black Rubber Watch
Emporio Armani AR0666 Mens Sports Chronograph Divers Watch
Emporio Armani AR0667 Men’s Gunmetal Chronograph watch
Emporio Armani AR0668 Women’s Leather Chronograph watch
Emporio Armani AR0671 Mens Classic Chronograph Watch
Emporio Armani AR0677 Men’s Brown Leather Strap Watch
Emporio Armani AR0683 Rubber Sport Mens Watch
Emporio Armani AR0684 Quartz Date Watch
Emporio Armani AR0685 Mens Stainless Steel Watch
Emporio Armani AR0686 Grey Sport Strap Gunmetal Dial Men’s Watch
Emporio Armani AR0687 Sport Blue Man Watch
Emporio Armani AR0696 Classic White Leather 2-Hand Silver Dial Men’s Watch
Emporio Armani AR0926 Quartz Black Dial Stainless Steel Case Stainless Steel Bracelet Watch
Emporio Armani AR0932 Stainless Silver Mens Watch
Emporio Armani AR0933 Classic Leather Men’s Watch
Emporio Armani AR0934 Mens Amber Brown Watch
Emporio Armani AR0936 Black Leather Mens Watch
Emporio Armani AR0937 wrist watch man black steel chronograph watch
Emporio Armani AR1400 Men’s Ceramic Black Chronograph Dial Watch
Emporio Armani AR1403 Men’s Ceramica White Dial Bracelet Watch
Emporio Armani AR1404 Ceramic Mens Stainless Steel Watch
Emporio Armani AR1406 Mens Marco Black Watch
Emporio Armani AR1408 White Ceramic Mens Watch
Emporio Armani AR1410 Men’s Ceramic Black Chronograph Dial Watch
Emporio Armani AR1411 Women’s Ceramica Chrono Watch
Emporio Armani AR1412 Women’s Ceramic Black Dial Watch
Emporio Armani AR1413 Sport Watch Quartz Chronograph Black Analog Mens
Emporio Armani AR1416 Quartz White Dial Men’s Watch
Emporio Armani AR2006 Super Slim Mens Designer Watch
Emporio Armani AR2007 Slim Leather Mens Watch
Emporio Armani AR2008 Men’s Classic Roman Numerals Silver Dial Watch
Emporio Armani AR2010 Men’s Slim Stainless Steel Watch
Emporio Armani AR2011 Super Slim Mens Designer Watch
Emporio Armani AR2012 Silver Strap Black Dial Watch
Emporio Armani AR2014 Men’s Silver Stainless-Steel Quartz Watch
Emporio Armani AR2016 Men’s Classic Mesh Goldtone Mother-Of-Pearl Dial Watch
Emporio Armani AR2020 Round Case Leather Strap Watch
Emporio Armani AR2022 Super Slim Stainless Steel Watch
Emporio Armani AR2023 Men’s Classic Stainless Steel Bracelet Watch
Emporio Armani AR2026 Men’s Classic Stainless Steel Watch
Emporio Armani AR2027 Men’s Classic Black Leather Watch
Emporio Armani AR2028 Gents Classic Watch Black Stainless Steel Mesh Bracelet
Emporio Armani AR2030 Black Leather Mens Watch
Emporio Armani AR2032 Men’s Rectangular Amber Dial Watch
Emporio Armani AR2034 Men’s Quartz Watch Leather Strap
Emporio Armani AR2036 Gents Stainless Steel Watch with White Dial
Emporio Armani AR2041 Super Slim Mens Designer Watch
Emporio Armani AR2043 Super Slim Mens Designer Watch
Emporio Armani AR2053 Men’s Silver Stainless-Steel Quartz Watch
Emporio Armani AR2055 Super Slim Silver Dial Mens Watch
Emporio Armani AR2411 Men’s Leather Strap Watch
Emporio Armani AR2413 Watch Men’s Brown Leather Strap
Emporio Armani AR2415 Mens Classic Steel Bracelet Watch
Emporio Armani AR2417 Classic Silver Dial Leather Mens Watch
Emporio Armani AR1700 Mens Black Valente Watch
Emporio Armani AR2421 Men’s Silver Stainless-Steel Quartz Watch Black Dial
Emporio Armani AR2423 Men’s Silver Stainless-Steel Analog Quartz Watch
Emporio Armani AR2425 Gold Plated Stainless Steel Men’s Watch
Emporio Armani AR2427 Classic Men’s Leather Dress Watch
Emporio Armani AR2429 Men’s Stainless Steel Black Leather Watch
Emporio Armani AR2430 Men’s Stainless Steel Bracelet Watch
Emporio Armani AR2431 Men’s Stainless Steel Watch
Emporio Armani AR2432 Men’s Chronograph Stainless Steel Black Leather Watch
Emporio Armani AR2433 Classic Mens Chronograph Designer Watch
Emporio Armani AR2434 Classic Chronograph Mens Watch
Emporio Armani AR2435 Men’s Chronograph Black Dial Stainless Steel Watch
Emporio Armani AR2436 Unisex Black Leather Quartz Watch
Emporio Armani AR2440 Men’s Black Dial Stainless Steel Watch
Emporio Armani AR2442 Classic Leather Strap Black Dial Men’s Watch
Emporio Armani AR2444 Classic Black Leather Date Strap Men’s Watch
Emporio Armani AR2447 Men’s Renato Chronograph Watch
Emporio Armani AR2448 Chronograph Mens Watch
Emporio Armani AR2452 Stainless Steel Pink Dial Men’s Watch
Emporio Armani AR3151 Diamond Mother Of Pearl Mens Watch
Emporio Armani AR4200 Mens MECCANICO Leather Strap Designer Watch
Emporio Armani AR4201 Meccanico Automatic Mens Watch
Emporio Armani AR4203 Mens MECCANICO Leather Strap Designer Watch
Emporio Armani AR4204 Black Leather Mens Watch
Emporio Armani AR4205 Mens Meccanico Leather Strap Watch
Emporio Armani AR4206 Mens Quartz Watch
Emporio Armani AR4207 Mens Meccanico Stainless Steel Designer Watch
Emporio Armani AR4208 Meccanico Men’s Watch
Emporio Armani AR4209 Meccanico Small Seconds Gents Watch
Emporio Armani AR4210 Brown Leather Meccanico Mens Watch
Emporio Armani AR4213 Classic Chronograph Black Dial Men’s Watch
Emporio Armani AR4214 Meccanico Mens Designer Watch
Emporio Armani AR4218 Mens MECCANICO Stainless Steel Designer Watch
Emporio Armani AR4219 Mens Rose Gold Classic Meccanico Watch
Emporio Armani AR4224 Meccanico Open Heart Mens Watch
Emporio Armani AR4226 Black Rubber Meccanico Mens Watch
Emporio Armani AR4228 Meccanico Automatic Black Leather Black Dial Mens Watch
Emporio Armani AR4229 Meccanico Automatic Brown Leather Yellow Dial Mens Watch
Emporio Armani AR4231 Mens Meccanico Rubber Strap Watch
Emporio Armani AR4601 Jungle Combat Mens Leather Wrist Watch
Emporio Armani AR4602 Black Leather Mens Designer Meccanico Watch
Emporio Armani AR4603 Men’s Watch Automatic Chronograph Watch
Emporio Armani AR4604 Meccanico Mens Watch
Emporio Armani AR4606 MECCANICO Leather Strap Mens Watch
Emporio Armani AR4607 Men’s Black Leather Quartz Watch
Emporio Armani AR4608 Meccanico Mens Designer Watch
Emporio Armani AR4609 Mens Meccanico Automatic Dk Blue /Black Leather Strap Watch
Emporio Armani AR4610 Meccanico Mens Stainless Steel Automatic Chronograph Mens Watch
Emporio Armani AR4611 Meccanico Gents Mens Watch
Emporio Armani AR4612 Meccanico Gents Mens Watch
Emporio Armani AR4613 Meccanico Gents Mens Watch
Emporio Armani AR4619 Meccanico Men’s Automatic Rose Gold Watch
Emporio Armani AR4620 Men Meccanico Calendar Watch
Emporio Armani AR4625 Meccanico Automatic Mens Designer Watch
Emporio Armani AR4627 Meccanico Mens Automatic Watch
Emporio Armani AR4628 Men’s Meccanico Black Leather Strap Watch
Emporio Armani AR4630 Meccanico Rubber Strap Watch
Emporio Armani AR4633 Gents Automatic Strap Watch
Emporio Armani AR4634 Meccanico Automatic Mens Designer Watch
Emporio Armani AR4635 Meccanico Automatic Black Men’s Watch
Emporio Armani AR4643 Men’s Meccanico Brown Dial Watch
Emporio Armani AR4644 Men’s Meccanico Brown Leather Strap Silver Dial watch
Emporio Armani AR5300 Striking gents dress watch
Emporio Armani AR5316 Mens Chronograph Sports Watch
Emporio Armani AR5321 Black Leather Chronograph Mens Watch
Emporio Armani AR5324 Men’s Stainless Steel Dial Watch
Emporio Armani AR5327 Stainless Large Gents Watch
Emporio Armani AR5328 Black Leather Mens Watch
Emporio Armani AR5329 Leather Gents Watch
Emporio Armani AR5330 Classic GMT Dual Time Gents Watch
Emporio Armani AR5331 Stainless Gents Watch

Posted by: burberry watch black at May 8, 2014 8:17 AM
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