Obama Treats Americans As “Sheeple!”

Congress Provided With “FAKE” Photo?

Obama, the leader of the Marxist division of the US government, just does not believe the American people can handle seeing a photograph of the dead Osama Bin Laden. He apparently believes we are too simple minded, too sensitive, too easily frightened of and by violence, too easily traumatized by war to be allowed to view the photos of a dead Bin Laden.

HE IS DEAD WRONG! Heck, I’d like to stand over the body, which is supposedly now fish food in the Arabian Sea. Believe me when I say, I would have preferred to have Bin Laden’s body on public display at Ground Zero in New York than given a proper funeral and buried at sea.

The man was a monster who took the lives of thousands of Americans with that attack on American soil, and is responsible for many, many, more American deaths all around the globe.

Darn right, I want to see the photograph! Rest assured, we WILL see it soon. There is no way the government can keep it locked away. It will pop-up soon on the Internet.

Look, when Saddam Hussein was hanged, and the video published to the web, I watched that video three or four times.

What REALLY irks me about Obama’s withholding the Osama photo, is the way, we, the American people are being treated by him (Obama), and his elite, snobbish, limp-wristed bunch of socialist-marxist effete posers who seem to believe they know better what is best for the American people than the American people, themselves, do. But that is how Socialism-Marxism works. (Get rid of Obama in 2012 – or get used to it. It will only get worse.)

What we have here is a prime example of just exactly how the left views the American citizen. It is obvious they see us as child-like, unable to think for ourselves and totally dependent upon them, our betters, to shepherd us as though we were, indeed, sheep, one of the dumbest animals on God’s green earth!

Remember, these are the people who ban the playing of “Tag” and “Dodge Ball” on the playground of our children’s schools while they teach them Marxist principles within the classrooms.


We have warned for years that America has been rearing a generation of wussies! Now, we know that not only did we raise them, heck, we placed them in the White House and the “West Wing” executive offices of the Obama Administration! (I wonder if anyone fainted in the Situation Room, as they watched live coverage of the Bin Laden take down?)

I can’t wait for the 2012 election. I am primed to vote for a candidate with some backbone. Frankly, I want a male in the Oval Office, an Alpha male, who will reassert America’s masculinity. I am more than a little tired of the Democrats feminine approach to governing. America needs a LEADER. In fact, we need a military man as President of the US during this time of war – a war that has no perceptible end.

It is painfully obvious to anyone, not of the political left, that America does not have a real leader in Obama. What we DO have is a narcissistic, self centered, socialist-Marxist, who views himself as a member of the political elite upper class deserving of all the worship and praise HE THINKS HE SHOULD HAVE and all the perks America can provide for his reigning queen. It is embarrassing to the average American.

The death of Bin Laden is a victory for the American people. It is a victory for the brave men of the US Special Forces and we demand to see the evidence that will, once and for all, close the books on the hellish evil of the man responsible for the deaths of so many of our fellow Americans.

We all know that, eventually, the “death photo” of Bin Laden will appear, most likely on the Internet, having been leaked by someone (most likely) in the government. Already, one international news service is presenting photos of other terrorists killed in the Obama raid, which were reportedly sold to them by a Pakistani official. You have to believe that money is being offered, even as we write, to anyone who can slip a copy of that banned photo to the various branches of the media. It will be published – count on it.

This effort on the part of Obama’s handlers to gain political points in the polls for their ceaselessly campaigning President WILL back fire. Indeed, it already has.

Seems to me a “grown-up” President would have announced that American forces located and dispatched Osama Bin Laden and that his body had been disposed of in an undisclosed location. Period. By going farther, in hopes of gaining temporary up spikes in the polls, the door was kicked open to everything happening today. This bespeaks the amateurism in the White House.

Yes, I am troubled by Obama not allowing Americans to see the photo, but I am far more troubled by this demonstration of just how little regard he has for the people he is supposed to serve.

Posted by J. D. Longstreet at May 5, 2011 3:28 AM
Comments
Comment #322778

Let me see if I understand your argument. If Obama had simply announced that US forces had killed bin Laden and disposed of his body in some unspecified location, you would have been completely satisfied. However, because he provided some details as to the circumstances of bin Laden’s killing and the nature of the evidence gathered to confirm his death, you now believe it important that death photographs be released. Why? It certainly isn’t to assuage any doubts about the killing. You would have believed a simple statement that he had been killed by US forces. So, your argument devolves into simple morbid curiosity. This apparently, is an important masculine need that Obama is denying “Alpha males” in the US.

Posted by: Rich at May 5, 2011 6:53 AM
Comment #322779

I’d say don’t be in such a rush to see death, to see such blood and gore. I once felt the need to see such stuff, and now? Well now, I prefer the fake stuff, because I don’t feel half as haunted looking at Hollywood’s version of death as I do the real thing.

And really, you’re criticizing the backbone of a President who just risked making a sequel to Blackhawk Down or Desert One to take out the man responsible for the deaths of three thousand Americans. Just because he won’t show you the photos of the results, you consider him a coward, despite the very real chance he took, and the very real result he got for the American people.

And you know what? Let him disappear to the bottom of the ocean. Let him be a man buried in no country. Let him fade as a symbol, rather than be a gruesome display at Ground Zero. This bastard wanted to make history, to change the world to fit his vision. Let his death be the beginning of his movements fade into obscurity. The Arab Spring is already showing that for all his delusions of grandeur, today’s Arabs turned to themselves and to the dream of Democracy rather to him and his dreams of a caliphate under him.

It just seems to me that you are angry at Obama for having stolen your movement’s thunder, for having taken out and disposed of Bin Laden his way, rather than aiming to provoke the whole region by making a gruesome medieval example out of him. We aren’t the barbarians he believed us to be, he was, and we don’t win by lowering ourselves to his level.

And what’s with all this red-baiting? What’s with all this talk of him being effete? That effete man, in his first term took out the man your manly man couldn’t kill or capture in either term.

You’re angry that the fellow who gets this boost won’t be one of yourse, but one of the people you hate and find weak.

I’d say its time to lay down your hatred of your fellow American, because what you seem to be doing right now is trying to reassert what were once considered your strengths.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at May 5, 2011 8:41 AM
Comment #322784

Of course the conservative talking point of the election cycle, weak leader no backbone yada yada yada. To bad it was a lie to begin with because after the Bin Laden raid it is only a fantasy of the far right extremist fringe in this country.

Posted by: j2t2 at May 5, 2011 10:27 AM
Comment #322788

stephen

“That effete man, in his first term took out the man your manly man couldn’t kill or capture in either term.”

we have no proof he was killed other than the gov’ts word. sorry i want to see proof. had bush been in obamas position right now the left would be demanding proof in the form of photos.


“You’re angry that the fellow who gets this boost won’t be one of yourse, but one of the people you hate and find weak.”

by nov. 2012 the the alleged killing of bin laden will be the farthest thing from peoples minds. it will be the economy, and with out a 180 in fiscal, and energy policy we will be looking at massive inflation, or high interest rates. i remember telling you several years ago what would happen if he dems pushed to hard to the left, or over estimated thier political capital. it happened last nov and it’ll happen again in 2012 if they don’t wise up. obama can no longer blame bush. it is now his economy, for better or worse.

Posted by: dbs at May 5, 2011 12:27 PM
Comment #322791


If I were Obama, I would release the photographs when Republican trutherism is at it’s most frenzied, about Oct, 2012.

Posted by: jlw at May 5, 2011 1:03 PM
Comment #322793

jlw by then nobody will care about the photos, their minds will be on the $5.00 per gallon of gas and the high unemployment and the tanking economy. OBL will be the farthest thing from their minds.

Posted by: KAP at May 5, 2011 1:23 PM
Comment #322794

dbs-
Okay, mister. Tell me what happened on Sunday. Tell me what the actual chain of events was. Tell me the evidence that proves there was a conspiracy.

The claim that Obama faked Bin Laden’s death is a positive statement of fact, and as such, is a claim that must be proven.

If you can’t tell me what really happened, If you can’t offer reliable proof and inference that backs you up and verifies your claim, then I will not join you in having doubts that what Obama claimed occurred did occur.

KAP-
Republicans have the better part of a year and a half to screw this one up, and Obama has the better part of that same year to continue to get things done.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at May 5, 2011 1:37 PM
Comment #322795


J.D.,don’t you mean Republican politicians were duped by a fake photo.

So, you want a alpha male? You have two of them to choose from, Palin and Bachmann.

You Republicans are never going to be able to restore America to it’s former greatness until you elect a president that has a final solution for America’s internal enemies.

Posted by: jlw at May 5, 2011 1:46 PM
Comment #322796

Hmmm. A POTUS who orders a SEAL team to take out the guy who has eluded us for over a decade has no backbone?

The families of the victims should be able to if they so choose. You and me? Not so much.

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at May 5, 2011 2:29 PM
Comment #322797

Unfortunately, there remain many questions regarding the military operation that sent OBL to his hellish reward. I would like to know all the details and see the film and photos.

There certainly would be nothing unusual in releasing the film and photos as there is abundant precedence. I am reminded of General Eisenhower’s demand that the horrors of the holocaust be well documented for future generations to see and learn from. Even with the indisputable evidence provided there are many in the world who deny it ever occurred.

I will believe my government when it says that OBL is dead. Even our current leaders could not be so foolish as to fake that claim.

We were provided with the grisly details and film of President Kennedy’s assassination and survived. We saw the film of Oswald’s shooting and survived. We have seen film of folks setting themselves on fire, beheadings, and hangings and survived.

I don’t believe the refusal to release film of a dead OBL is based upon our inability to handle seeing them, but rather, because of some misplaced concern for the reaction of the Muslim world. But, that makes no sense either. If killing OBL is seen as acceptable by our Dear Leader, certainly providing the photos shouldn’t be a concern.

Posted by: Royal Flush at May 5, 2011 2:32 PM
Comment #322799

I think it has absolutely nothing to do with concern for the reaction because as you said, it makes no sense. I think it has everything to do with the afterbirther crap. Some people will refuse to believe, regardless.

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at May 5, 2011 2:49 PM
Comment #322803

Royal Flush-
These are photos taken independently of the SEAL Team documenting the wreckage of the copter, the three additional dead to Osama, and what a person shot dead actually looks like.

There’s a certain level of gruesome that people are used to, because of what they see on television and the movies, and then there’s reality. Head shots in movies are often achieved via special effects, and they’re usually fairly clean, due to the demands of actually simulating all the bone, blood and other assorted grue that comes out of a person who is shot in the head.

Head shots have the connotation of clean kill in modern culture, if for no other reason than their reputation for near instant fatality. The reality is messier, as Rep. Giffords’ survival demonstrates. It’s certainly not the best place to get shot, but you can survive a head shot.

But you can also end up with your face distorted way out of shape or parts blown away, and you can end up with the top of your skull or the back blown out and your grey matter a bloody pudding on the floor.

There are some shots people could handle, that would not phase them. Others would be entirely too much for most people to handle without really getting shocked and horrified by it.

I’m confident it will leak out eventually. But I believe it’s better if it’s not a policy choice by our leaders that it happens.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at May 5, 2011 3:02 PM
Comment #322804


Osama was hooked up to his dialysis machine.

Posted by: jlw at May 5, 2011 3:09 PM
Comment #322805

stephen


“The claim that Obama faked Bin Laden’s death is a positive statement of fact, and as such, is a claim that must be proven.”

ok mister!

where did i say that? i said it smells funny, and i’de like some proof. ie video, and photos either or.

so let me see if i understand this. saying we killed bin laden is not a positive statement that needs to be proven right?

how many bounties” wanted dead or alive” do you suppose have been paid out without proof?

RF

“Even our current leaders could not be so foolish as to fake that claim.”

i’m not so sure about that rf. i wish i could say i was.

Posted by: dbs at May 5, 2011 3:14 PM
Comment #322806

stephen

i looked at your link. thanks for making my case. we can release these pictures, but not bin ladens. you don’t find that piculiar? why? you so trust your gov’t that a red flag like this doesn’t even raise an eyebrow….really?

Posted by: dbs at May 5, 2011 3:21 PM
Comment #322807

SD writes; “There’s a certain level of gruesome that people are used to, because of what they see on television and the movies, and then there’s reality.”

I don’t buy your argument SD and I will tell you why. I watch the History Channel and many other such TV offerings which show in vivid detail the horrors of war with dead and mutilated bodies. I have seen film of the dead bodies and those barely living after the Allies entered Auschwitz and other Nazi horror camps. Ken Burns, in his epic production about the Civil War showed actual photos of many dead and wounded. I have a book produced over 40 years ago by Time/Life containing the photos of Matthew Brady’s Civil War photographic coverage. No attempt was made to hide or cover up the aftermath of violence. I can find graphic death photos in my Encyclopedia.

Such material found in film and books are available to the general public, both adult and child.

My local TV station shows film of the aftermath of car accidents and acts of nature which are unpleasant to see.

However, there is a reason such material is in the public realm. I would ask SD if he would have used the same logic regarding the release of the film showing in great detail the head of President Kennedy exploding from an assassins bullet?

There is no reason to hide, shield, or in any way prevent people from viewing historical fact. There are lessons to be learned.

Posted by: Royal Flush at May 5, 2011 3:33 PM
Comment #322810

I don’t think the photos are being withheld for our sake, but rather for the sake of the Muslim World. Undoubtedly, they will be revealed, but I don’t think the Obama administration wanted to inflame Muslims abroad who may be on the fence twice in such a short period of time. If the photographs were released immediately, they’d become propaganda images for Al Qaeda as it tries to resuscitates itself. Once its clear that things are petering out, I expect the Obama administration to release the photographs.

Posted by: Warped Reality at May 5, 2011 4:12 PM
Comment #322812

Royal Flush-
I’ve seen what you’ve seen. Trust me: there’s a level of detail people are used to, and then there’s reality. If you think what’s on history channel is bad, you haven’t looked far enough on the internet. Besides, they always run disclaimers on that stuff, even if its just minimally disturbing.

And really, the Zapruder film doesn’t show great detail. what we see tends to be a blown-up (in the photographic sense) shot of his full body. If you look at the actual Zapruder film, it’s a wide shot.

The film is so grainy and out of focus that the faces are barely recognizeable.

Yes, today’s generation would have a great deal more tolerance for blood and gore. But I think there are limits to that, and I think head shots, especially through the eye, approach that limit. There’s something about grievance damage to the face that especially disturbs people.

I’m in no hurry to see more blood and guts. I’ve seen photos on the net of bloated flood victims, of folks crushed and mangled in all kinds of way. For my part, it once felt like confronting that side of things made me feel more alive. Nowadays, though, it just makes me feel more haunted.

I don’t need to see any photos. I bet if you wait long enough, you’ll get to see them. For my part, though, I no longer answer to that kind of morbid curiosity. It’s enough for me that Bin Laden is dead. I don’t need any more proof that my President is bold and decisive.

(Of course, I knew that back during the campaign. Why else do you think I voted for him? Yes, he does wait sometimes to do something, longer than some would, but we shouldn’t confuse decisive with impulsive.)

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at May 5, 2011 4:12 PM
Comment #322813

OK now clicking on that link was a mistake. That was super gross. Yeah, I don’t need to see anymore of that. OBL is part of that bloody mess. That’s all I need to know.

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at May 5, 2011 4:23 PM
Comment #322814

Longstreet. You’re an idiot!!! Obama doesn’t want to release the photo’s for fear that it will incite more violence from the arab world. Its a smart move. I would have prefered they brought back bin laden’s head on a stake. But, that is just me.

Posted by: Jason at May 5, 2011 4:55 PM
Comment #322815

The goose stepping tin hats are out in full force.

Posted by: Jeff at May 5, 2011 5:10 PM
Comment #322816

SD is just spinning his comments with no substance behind them. It’s defend obama no matter what as usual. Yes, we will see the photos, and I for one, will look at them and revel in seeing this bastard dead.

Our military and intelligence apparatus, over a period of many years, did a great job in finally locating and killing this terrorist. That obama gave the order to kill rather than arrest is commendable.

Posted by: Royal Flush at May 5, 2011 5:17 PM
Comment #322819

I went away for a month, and what happens? The loonies are elevated to writers on this site. Still a few rational ones here, but they appear to be disappearing fast.

Guess I’ll stick to C&J’s in this column. Only rational voice here, even if wrong in a few conclusions.

Posted by: BritBob at May 5, 2011 5:33 PM
Comment #322820

Royal Flush-
I’m defending the decision of a man who just ordered a successful mission to kill Bin Laden. That’s the substance I defend, and which you and Longstreet here attack based on a Public Relations decision.

See my thing is, I think showing that bloody mess that Spinny Liberal so eloquently reacted to isn’t necessary. Folks used to have a certain level of class about not showing them.

This is a criticism based on what I see as a warped sense of bloodlust, or an overbearing sense of paranoia.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at May 5, 2011 5:36 PM
Comment #322823

SD writes; “Folks used to have a certain level of class about not showing them.”

That comment is pure unadulterated bull crap. I provided numerous examples to prove otherwise that he ignores as it doesn’t suit his purpose. Liberals can only operate on one wavelength. Such a limited operational base results in their theory…

I am right, because I know I am right, and I will ignore the truth and tell lies to prove it.

Posted by: Royal Flush at May 5, 2011 5:49 PM
Comment #322825

As we pulled out of Vietnam and the North Vietnamese poured into the south, I remember seeing on the media over and over the murder of a man standing in the street with his hands tied behind his back. A NV officer standing next to the man put a hand gun to the head of the unarmed and bound man and blew his brains out of the other side of his head.

After an outrage from most of the world for such a blatant crime, we were all told that the offending officer had been punished then we were told he had been killed. I had no reason to beleive that was true.

The media seemed to have no problem with showing the body of a US Army Ranger beeing drug through the streets over and over.

What doesn’t make sense to me, is that it is more upsetting to see an innocent and defenseless man having his brains blown out or one or our solders body being mutilated than it would be to see the dead body of a mass murderer who declared war on the US.

I agree; something smells fishy.

Posted by: Michael at May 5, 2011 6:01 PM
Comment #322826

Here we go again with liberals trying to protect us from ourselves. Stephen, I’m a big boy now. Having gone to VietNam a month after the Tet offensive and being in the infantry in one of the toughest units there, I’ve seen a lot of blood and gore. I think I can take seeing a photo of Ben Laden with half his head blown off.

The point is it should be MY choice if I want to see it. If you and Spinny Liberal don’t have the spine to look at it, she don’t have to. Nobody is going to pry your eyes open and make you look.

You will always have the option of not looking, but you are trying to take away everyone’s option to look if they so desire. That is one of the things I don’t like about liberals. The whole attitude sounds kind of elite to me.

Posted by: tdobson at May 5, 2011 6:05 PM
Comment #322827

tdobson - did you lose a loved one in 9/11? If you did, by all means you should be able to see it for closure. If not, why do you need to? I mean, really. Is it because you don’t believe he’s really dead?

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at May 5, 2011 6:22 PM
Comment #322828

None of us have a choice in the matter because Obama’s not releasing them.

If it were me, I would release them just to shut people up. It probably won’t because people who don’t believe it happened, will never believe it happened. No matter how much proof there is.

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at May 5, 2011 6:31 PM
Comment #322831

Michael,

The famous photograph from Vietnam that you are referring to was actually taken during the height of the TET offensive in Saigon. It is a picture of the general in charge of the South Vietnamese National Police summarily executing a Viet Cong prisoner. He wasn’t an innocent man.

Posted by: Rich at May 5, 2011 6:41 PM
Comment #322832

“tdobson - did you lose a loved one in 9/11? If you did, by all means you should be able to see it for closure. If not, why do you need to? I mean, really. Is it because you don’t believe he’s really dead?”

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at May 5, 2011 06:22 PM

Yes SL, As an american I DID lose loved ones on 9/11. No on I know of personally, but I consider ALL americans to be my loved ones, else I wouldn’t have gone to war in 1969 to protect them…even you.

The question is Why don’t you and others like you want me to see the pictures?

Why is it a matter of “need”? Why isn’t desire a good enough reason?

Posted by: tdobson at May 5, 2011 6:45 PM
Comment #322833

Well of course you are correct tdobson. But, we’re dealing with the liberal mentality here. They always proclaim that they know what is best for us. They don’t understand why we wish to protect traditional marriage, why we defend the unborn, why we don’t wish to fund those too lazy to work, and why we want smaller more effective and responsive government.

Posted by: Royal Flush at May 5, 2011 6:52 PM
Comment #322835

Spiny Liberal,

This issue hasn’t anything to do with proof for commentators on this site. Unless, of course, they don’t believe the President of the United States, the United States Navy, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the CIA, the physical evidence of the raid, the eyewitness accounts of his killing reported by Pakistani officials, etc.

The only thing that I can conclude is that they wish to either satisfy a morbid curiosity or are simply grasping at any straw to find some criticism of Obama.

Posted by: Rich at May 5, 2011 6:57 PM
Comment #322836

Like I said, I don’t care if you see the pictures. I wish he would just release them to shut people up. If someone gets their rocks off looking at gruesome crap, that’s on them. I don’t really care. To each their own, you know?

But all of this is irrelevant because it was Obama’s call, and he said “No pictures for you!” (Seinfeld Soup Nazi voice).

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at May 5, 2011 7:01 PM
Comment #322837

Rich,

It doesn’t matter what your conclusion is. I’ll pose the same question to you. Why do you and people like you want to stop me from seeing the pictures?

Posted by: tdobson at May 5, 2011 7:03 PM
Comment #322838

@Rich - from reading the original post and people’s comments, I believe it is morbid curiosity. Not my thing, and I don’t care, honestly.

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at May 5, 2011 7:06 PM
Comment #322839

“Like I said, I don’t care if you see the pictures. I wish he would just release them to shut people up. If someone gets their rocks off looking at gruesome crap, that’s on them. I don’t really care. To each their own, you know?”

Losing your spine now, SL? earlier you were defending him for not releasing the photos.

Posted by: tdobson at May 5, 2011 7:09 PM
Comment #322841

Just checked. Yup. Spine still there.

Where did I defend him for not releasing the photos? I stated why I believe he’s not releasing them - afterbirther crap. Why I think it’s not necessary - cuz it’s gross. And I even said the 9/11 victims should be able to see them.

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at May 5, 2011 7:17 PM
Comment #322842

In comment #322796 “The families of the victims should be able to if they so choose. You and me? Not so much.”

You don’t consider that a defense?

Posted by: tdobson at May 5, 2011 7:24 PM
Comment #322844

Not at all. We have no need to. You and others have the desire. We don’t always get what we want. *shrug*

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at May 5, 2011 7:28 PM
Comment #322846

SL,

Since we are all victims of 9/11 I guess I can take it that you agree with me.

Posted by: tdobson at May 5, 2011 7:33 PM
Comment #322847

tdobson,

The photos are not necessary to establish proof of his death. There is abundant alternative evidence, including surviving eyewitnesses who have already verified to Pakistani officials that bin Laden was indeed killed in the raid by a SEAL team.

Since the photos are not necessary to establish proof, then what purpose would their release serve? For some, it would only amount to morbid curiosity. However, for others, it might induce outrage. The symbolic burning of the Koran continues to invoke violence in Afghanistan. No sense in adding another log to the fire.

I like SL’s compromise of releasing the photos to families of victims of 9/11 and other terrorist acts, if they so desire. That would seem consistent with our general policy and custom of allowing family members to witness an execution.

Posted by: Rich at May 5, 2011 7:39 PM
Comment #322848

Yes, I agree with you that he should show them. IMHO, I believe he’s not releasing him because of what happened last week with the afterbirther crap. You can’t satiate those who refuse to be satiated.

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at May 5, 2011 7:40 PM
Comment #322853

Rich,

I have no doubt that he is dead. That is NOT my concern. You can call it morbid curosity if you want, but I want to see the photos. At this point for me it is a matter more of principal. Liberals like SD are defending Obama’s decision not to show the photos because it is too gross to look at. My position is it should be the choice of the American people to look at them or not and the only way to do that is to offer them. As I said earlier, nobody is going to force anyone to look at them.

Posted by: tdobson at May 5, 2011 7:51 PM
Comment #322855

Are these photos classified as “secret”? I don’t doubt that OBL is dead. Is obama ashamed of what he authorized? Good grief people, we photographed the dropping of an Atomic Bomb on Japan and circulated the film and aftermath photos. It is historical. What the hell gives dear leader the right to restrict our knowledge of what is an historic event?

Liberals are only too anxious to hang out our dirty laundry with photo, film and narrative… but can’t get their warped little minds around what most Americans consider a small victory in a larger war. We want to see the photos.

Posted by: Royal Flush at May 5, 2011 7:56 PM
Comment #322857

Well, Im getting to be an old man now and it’s almost bed time. I’ll take this up in the morning.

G’nite all

Posted by: tdobson at May 5, 2011 8:12 PM
Comment #322858

Obama did the right thing. We can quibble with details, but the man making the decision has to be given the benefit of the doubt.

When I was thinking about what SHOULD have been done, I came up with good arguments for lots of points of view. That is the point. Give the man a break.

There are/will be plenty of good reasons to dislike Obama. Jobs, the economy, inflation and various social issues will give us plenty to talk about. Killing bin Laden is something we should all agree is just a good thing.

re the picture - no point in that. The picture would not convince the “deathers” and those pin headed militants are already mad. They don’t need an excuse to hate us.

I bet the bin Laden picture is comical. My guess is that they got the old pervert right in the forehead and his eyes are facing different directions, much like the fish now sharing his world. We showed plenty of respect for Muslim attitudes with his body. The culturally sensitive thing to do was to kill him. Revenge is a big part of bin Laden’s culture. NOT to kill him would have made us lose respect among them. With guys like this, it is better to be respected and feared than loved.

Posted by: C&J at May 5, 2011 8:19 PM
Comment #322862

Night night tdobson.

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at May 5, 2011 9:06 PM
Comment #322864

In general, I see the photographs as a bogus issue. I can understand people wanting to see them, I can understand people not wanting to see them. I just don’t see the point of saying that Obama’s weak for not showing them. Most Americans never fought in a war. Most Americans have never seen somebody die of a gunshot wound, much less one to the head.

We may see, and in that case I won’t go screaming around with my hair on fire about how awful it is. But then I’m a product of times when real, bloody violence was not commonly portrayed in the news, at least not the stuff I watched. I was far too young to see the bloody bodies in the news from Vietnam.

Michael-
Actually, the infamous shot you’re speaking of was the other way around. The guy being executed was Viet Cong, the man killing him a South Vietnamese general.

If I had my druthers, really, you wouldn’t see any of that stuff, at least not without warning enough to get the kids out of the room. You want to smell something fishy about that, go ahead, but I’m not sympathetic to just showing that nasty stuff for the sake of showing it, for the sake of sensationalizing coverage. I don’t like the “it bleeds, it leads” philosophy of news coverage.

tdobson-
If you’ve seen it on your own, then I agree, that as long as you’re okay with that, there should be nothing that prevents you from looking at it. But it’s not a matter of spine. You saw what I posted, and trust me when I say that I’ve seen pictures of worse than that, though never thankfully the reality of it.

But it’s not spine that defines my revulsion. I just have that normal, ordinary revulsion to seeing the destruction of the human body. If it was posted, I’d probably look, to be honest with you. But I can live without seeing such gruesome details, and natural inclination leads me to prefer that.

Royal Flush-
Shorter RF argument: Stephen’s a liberal, and that means he’s not qualified to think for himself. He can’t be trusted to make an informed opinion, any defense of any liberal he makes is just the product of neverending irational love for whoever’s running for office.

You go to such lengths to try and discredit me, and pull the liberal, the socialist, the whatever card you got handy card to discourage people from believing me.

I guess I should be flattered. If you weren’t worried people might believe me, you wouldn’t try.

You say “They always proclaim that they know what is best for us.”

Well, I guess since you don’t really care about doing that, then you’re going to stop insisting that we uphold your definition of the integrity of marriage. You’re going to stop insisting that you can tell secularly minded women when the baby stops being a part of her, and takes on a soul of its own. And most certainly that would require you to stop moralizing to people who have often fallen on hard times, and who are asking for help because they have to have some kind of help to survive, to feed their children, to keep from becoming homeless or staying homeless.

And really, maybe, having decided not to proclaim what is best for us, there will come a time when we were not constantly lectured about the dangers of choosing a government capable of regulating the markets, and satisfying the needs of this country.

Since you no longer care to tell us what to do, you will most certainly stop getting in the way of the programs that will be necessary to accelerate our recovery and get out from under this high unemployment.

Since, of course, you’re not proclaiming what is best for us, right?

Truth is, your people are constantly, patronizingly implying that the American people cannot be trusted to decide their level of government, and have constantly acted to cut short such developments, even against public opinion.

We’re constantly fearmongered about what will happen if a good, Christian, Conservative Small government isn’t instituted right this second, even as the beginning versions of that fail miserably at keeping the markets stable and fuel costs down, and fail to tend ot the other duties we ask of it.

Face facts: your party wants the put the law down in a great many places, even as it claims to be about unending freedom.

With Government, and the power it carries, there is always the question of what government allows and disallows. I fact that my party does not stand for absolute freedoms. It’s got its list of things to restrict by law, and its list of things to free from the law, or at least to uphold as a right.

The Republicans have the same, but they choose to take the propagandistic approach of promising people that they can deliver something a approaching absolute freedom.

In reality, there’s a lot they want to lay the law down on, a lot that, when given the chance, they have tried to restrict. Unionization, Reproductive choice, our Civil Liberties, our ability to sue doctors who inflict malpractice upon us, so on and so forth.

No real government can guarantee all freedoms and rights. They must choose.

I think the big problem for Republicans in the last decade has been the refusal to choose what rights they want, versus what ones they don’t, and then the refusal to realize that such refusals are themselves a choice, and they have consequences just like any other.

Republicans want to have two expensive wars and a tax cut, a thriving unchained economy, even as the uninhibited Wall Street types create dangerous impediments to growth by generating false wealth and inflating their company’s worth. They want the freedom to say whatever they want to people, and yet be free from any criticism for having said it. They field the nuttiest candidates, but don’t call them nuts. They push the wildest conspiracy theories, but don’t say they lack crediblity

They fail to recognize that the freedom to act as you please is obligation to accept the consequences, and the consequences don’t always come soon enough or clearly enough to teach people to recognize that a disaster is coming.

There is no magic formula or diagram when it comes to getting policy right. Ideologically correct ideas can crash and burn as errors just as much as the heresies do.

Those who carry out policy, who legislate it can’t just operate according to some magic logic that makes everything right. We have to acknowledge results, acknowledge consequences, and let our understanding change the feedback loop of behavior, of lawmaking for the better. Any other system will surive only by luck.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at May 5, 2011 9:50 PM
Comment #322868

Not showing the photo does just the opposite of what was intended. Fake photos and conspiracy theories are spreading, radical Islamists do not believe, respect the killing, and hate us more than ever. Random wildfire rather than US led factual closure.

Posted by: Web Design at May 5, 2011 10:15 PM
Comment #322881

spinny

one of my class mates, a girl i went to school with, and graduated with was a flight attendant on one of the planes on 911.

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/911victims/renee-a-may/

Posted by: dbs at May 6, 2011 5:14 AM
Comment #322889

Stephen and others whom it may concern,

First with a disclaimer. This is going to be a long post and probably not very well written. I never went to college and English was not my favorite subject in High School.

The “spine” comment was a little jab at Spinny Liberal because she seemed to waffle from supporting Obama’s decision not to release the photos to supporting my right to see them. I’m not above a humorous jab at times.

I’m going to ask you to look at this issue from my perspective as I believe it is the same as thousands of others from my generation.

You say you’ve seen some gross pictures and I’m sure you have. I shy away from most of them myself because they bring back painful memories. I DO want to see the pictures of OBL and the more gruesom it is the better I will like it. I want the satisfaction of seeing that SOB dead. It’s probably because of my experiences in war that I want it. At the age of 19 I was drafted into the Army. It was in 1967 and the VietNam war was in full swing. I knew I was drafted to go there and figured the best chance of survival was to be in the best physical shap I could be in and get into the best unit I could. Without extending my service from two years to four, the best I could do was Airborne. Training was tough but it was sucessful and I was assigned to one of the toughest units in the Army. The 173rd Airborne Brigade. The one thing I didn’t consider was that the toughest units were the ones who were sent into the worst areas. We would get intellegence reports of the enemy and they would choper us into the middle of the area and we would run patrols and fight our way out. Yes, I saw a LOT of blood and gore, from both sides. Let me tell you about one battle, although it is extremely painful to remember.

We were at our base camp pulling peremeter guard and were going back out into the jungle the next day when nine of us were chosen to set up an ambush in a village about seven or eight kilometers away. We would be sent in by helicopters and the rest of the company would hump out the next day and join us. It was a screw up from the beginning. They dropped us off in a kind of oasis in the middle of a huge rice paddy at the beginning of dusk. The village we were going to was a couple of hundred meters away, so there were no doubts why we were there. After dark we tried to sneak our way into the village and set up our ambush along a trail with a fairly good kill zone. It was a cloudy night with no stars or even a moon visible. Sometime around midnight we heard a THUMP and recognized it as a grenade hitting the ground. Then the explosion. The Viet Cong had watched us set up and knew exactly where we were. They didn’t shoot at us because the muzzle flashes from their weapons would give away their positions. Instead, they would lobe grenades at us. Since grenades have a 4.5 second fuse, all we could do is hear the THUMP as it hit the ground and get down and hope and pray that we would survive. That went on until dawn when we could half way see and begin to fight back. By that time, seven of our nine were either dead or seriously wounded. Myself and our medic were the only ones unhurt. Three were dead on the spot and four others were mortally wounded. One friend who I went thru basic training with and was right next to me had a seere head wound and was virtually a vegetable, grunting and babbling while rocking his upper body back and forth. Our medic who wasn’t supposed to fight became a full fledged warrior that night.

That was one of many battles and firefights I suffered thru (although that was probably the worst) while I was there.

I know what blood and gore looks like, smells like and feels like. I don’t take it lightly, and I’m sure other vets feel the same. No one hates war more than the warrior.
Maybe it’s revenge or closure, I don’t know, but I DO want to see the pictures.

As far as pissing off the enemy, I don’t care. They are already pissed at us and showing the photos won’t make any difference.

With reguard to enhanced interrogation, I think it is approperate. I’ve seen it used very effectively. I’ve seen a Viet Cong with a sandbag over his head loaded into a helicopter and taken up about three hundred feet an slowly lowered to a few feet from the ground so he thought he was still high up, then hung out of the chopper and threatened to be dropped if he didn’t talk. He talked. I’ve seen an NVA soldier waterboarded and it didn’t take long before he was eager to give up any information he had. Both instanses gave us valuable information that undoubtably saved lives of our troops. Yes, it was worth it.

I remember reading in the Stars and Stripes about one of our brave veterans comming home from VietNam after going thru the hell of war and being shot as he got off the plane in California by a war protester. I remember being called a baby killer by hippys who wore parts of our uniforms with sargeant stripes sewen upside down in disrespect. I remember our soldiers being spat on, etc, etc. All of this disrespect came from liberals. I remember Bill Ayres (Obama’s friend) and the Weather Underground. Now he and his cohorts are respected liberals. Do you wonder why I and others of my generation dislike and distrust liberals?

I don’t consider myself a republican, There are several things I dislike about the republican party. There are more things I dislike about the democratis party. I consider myself an independant, more alligned with libertarians than any other organized group, although I don’t agree totally with them.

My basic belief is that I should have the right to do anything I want as long as I don’t violate the rights of others.

Seeing the photos of Bin Laden with half his head shot off will not violate anyone’s rights and should be released. As I said before, Nobody is going to force anyone to look at them.

I could go on with the “war stories” but anyone who hasn’t been to war probably wouldn’t believe them and the ones who have already know the horrors of the hell that it is. Besides that, it’s extremely painful to bring up the memories.

I hope this post gives you some perspective as to how I and many in my generation feel and why we are so adament in our feelings

Have a good ady and think about this a while. I’m going to take a nerve pill.

Posted by: tdobson at May 6, 2011 10:16 AM
Comment #322896

Many thanks for your post tdobson and for your courageous service to our nation. While I was in the Army, being drafted in 1963, I was lucky and spent all my time in the states. God bless you and all those serving in our military services.

I joined the American Legion some years ago and it is a great organization dedicated to helping those who return from foreign duty with needs we attempt to help with. We, along with many other groups, meet and greet every returning military person at the local airport.

Posted by: Royal Flush at May 6, 2011 1:11 PM
Comment #322897

@dbs - I’m sorry that happened to your friend and for her loss. My partner “almost” lost a good friend because he had a meeting at the WTC that morning. Miraculously, he missed it.

@tdobson - thank you for sharing your story. I understand the distrust of liberals because of how vets were treated. It was sickening that you guys were spat on. We can love our soldiers but hate the US foreign policy that sent them there.

Nerve pill sounds like a good idea considering you relived it by telling us. I hope it was a bit cathartic. Maybe take a nap. Sleep always helps me. You don’t feel anything asleep.

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at May 6, 2011 1:19 PM
Comment #322902

Yes Spinny, it was sickening the way we were treated when we returned. You say we can love our soldiers but hate the foreign policy that sent them there. I agree, however, the liberal leaders of today are of the same group that spat on us.

You say you don’t feel anything while sleeping. Sometimes you do. I frequently wake up in the middle of the night with heavy sweating and feel like I’ve ran a mile and have left countless bruises on my wife after hitting and kicking her in my sleep. I haven’t had a dream that I can remember in years so I guess my mind have turned them off. The war never ends for some of us.

Posted by: tdobson at May 6, 2011 3:14 PM
Comment #322904

That must be excruciating. =( Have you tried PTSD counseling or group therapy? I’m glad your mind turned them off.

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at May 6, 2011 4:21 PM
Comment #322905

I don’t need sympathy Spinny. I don’t think you can be exposed to conditions like that and not carry it with you for life. I don’t regret it for a moment. I was and am proud to have done my part in the service of my country.

There are thousands and thousands who have it worse than me.

The reason for my post is to try to get some liberals to look at things from a different perspective. If I’ve done that, it’s worth the painful memories.

Think for a moment who some of Obama’s friends are such as Bill Ares, the “reverand” Wright, Van Jones and all the others and think about the attitudes they have and would have hade back then. They are the kind of people who spat on us and called us “baby killers” etc. You say it was sickening then, well they are still sickening to me and countless others.

Posted by: tdobson at May 6, 2011 4:47 PM
Comment #322906

The reason for my post is to try to get some liberals to look at things from a different perspective. If I’ve done that, it’s worth the painful memories.

Then it was worth it.

Posted by: Spinny Liberal at May 6, 2011 4:59 PM
Comment #322949

tdobson, first I want to thank you, as well, for your time and sacrifices. A mere thanks can not go nearly far enough to cover things you will never forget or ever outrun. I have never, or will I ever belittle a Veteran for having served to protect our country,,,,ever! I grew up and lived through Viet Nam, too. It scared the hell out of me and my friends, but it was far away and not sensationalized as news is today. I lived in Sacramento, right between McClellan AFB and Mather AFB, and we had friends from both of those places that we knew and cared for. More times than I can tell you now, either me, my girlfriend, or both of us together would take guys to Travis AFB to depart. We didn’t just drop them off and leave…we parked, went into the main terminal with them and waited until they left and their plane was out of sight. At least the last thing they saw from home was someone that cared about them and wished them well. I hated the war! I still do….that one and all since. I was a Liberal then and that didn’t dictate what I thought and felt, just like it didn’t control my thoughts and feelings about lots of things as I grew and aged. I’d venture to say that preconceived notions about both sides and their principles can be wrong, and just as you went off to fight for our country, it was to preserve our rights to continue believing as we choose. Those beliefs and fights won’t change, as long as two people are left to compare their beliefs.

Posted by: jane doe at May 7, 2011 6:37 PM
Comment #322957

Jane Doe,

I appreciate your gratitude. It means a lot after 41 years and to be honest, VietNam veterans don’t hear it enough.

We had a saying back then in the military that still rings true. “I might not like what you are doing, but I’m willing to give my lift to preserve your right to do it.”

I took an oath back then to protect and defend the constitution of the United States from all enemies both foreign AND DOMESTIC. I put away my weapons and hung up my uniform, but I never recended that oath. What I would like from liberals and consertives is to leave me alone to do what I want as long as I don’t trample on the rights of others. It’s that simple.

The best way to show your gratitude to me or any other veteran is to make sure our fighting men and women are greeted in a friendlier fashion than we were. Take a moment when you see someone in uniform and thank them for the sacrifice they are making. Believe me when I say it is a tremendous sacrifice.

Posted by: tdobson at May 8, 2011 7:37 AM
Comment #322958

By the way Jane, What do you think about releasing the pictures of Bin Laden’s body and burial?

Posted by: tdobson at May 8, 2011 7:39 AM
Comment #322968

tdobson,

Thank you for your service. I was born after the Berlin Wall fell down, so I don’t think I’ll ever be able to relate with the trauma veterans experienced during the Vietnam War.

leave me alone to do what I want as long as I don’t trample on the rights of others.

That’s the same sentiment that forms the core of my philosophy. The right to do as one wishes so long as one doesn’t impede anyone else’s rights is the essence of liberalism.

Posted by: Warped Reality at May 8, 2011 7:52 PM
Comment #322969

Thanks warped,
Unfortunately over the last several decades that doesn’t seem to be the philosophy of our government. In parts of our country I can’t even buy my grandchildren a soda if it has sugar in it. In parts of the country they wan’t to restrict them from playing basic kids games like dodge ball and red rover. In parts of the country I can’t smoke even on the sidewalks. It goes on and on. I don’t even get the oppertunity to see the photo of the dead terrorist who killed 3000 of my fellow americans. I see my freedoms being eroded every day. Sometimes it comes from the right but mostly it comes from the left.

Posted by: tdobson at May 8, 2011 8:11 PM
Comment #322982
Sometimes it comes from the right but mostly it comes from the left.

From my vantage point, the Right is a greater risk to my freedoms than the Left. We disagree, which is why we have WatchBlog to debate our differences.

Posted by: Warped Reality at May 9, 2011 12:17 AM
Comment #322983

tdobson, I’m ambivalent about releasing it. I don’t think it’s so much that some people need to personally confirm that the guy is dead, as it is to keep hammering at everything that Obama does with questions and challenges. If it, in fact, would incite more killing, then those who are making such an issue of it really need to rethink their own “whys”. I think it’s just a relatively small group who will stop at NOTHING to attack anything Obama says or does. Nothing will satisfy them short of him being gone.

Posted by: jane doe at May 9, 2011 12:25 AM
Comment #322991

Jane,
I think you are right to a degree. I have no doubt he is dead. SEAL team 6 went after him. They do their job extremely well.

I am “hammering” this action of Obama’s because I think it is a bad policy. I would “hammer at the same decision if Bush or Reagan proposed the same. I’m not a psychologist and don’t pretent to know why I would get satisfaction from seeing the pictures, but I want to se them.

As far as inciting more killing, I don’t think it would. These people respect force and violence. I think it is just as likely that it would prevent more killing. As I mentioned in a post above, I was in a tough unie in VietNam. The Viet Cong considered us to be real “bad asses” to be avoided as much as possible. Our unit patch is very colorful with a blue background, a white wing and a red sword under the wing. In the field we wore subdued patches to keep from giving away our positions, but when we were free to visit local villages (about one week per month), we would wear our colors to let everyone know who we were. Along with that, it was practice to leave dead enemies along the side of the road or trail to be claimed by their families of friends. We had special playing cards printed, all being the ace of spades and with our patch on the back. Whenever we killed an enemy, we would pin a card to his chest to let his friends know it was us who killed him. I know it sounds morbid, but war IS morbid. The reason for doing that was to instill fear in the enemy. We wanted them to piss their pants whenever they saw our patches. Psychological warfare WORKS.

I don’t like Obama, but probably the prime reason I think the pictures should be released is the principal. I am an adult American and these pictures are an important part of history. To keep that away from me is just FLAT OUT WRONG.

Posted by: tdobson at May 9, 2011 7:04 AM
Comment #322999
I am an adult American and these pictures are an important part of history. To keep that away from me is just FLAT OUT WRONG.

Keep in mind that this is more an issue of when the photos are released and not an issue of whether the photos are released. Nothing stays classified forever; the photos will undoubtedly be released someday. The question is whether the best time to release them is now or sometime in the future. Given the fact that Al Qaeda is in a state of flux after the assassination of their leader, I think it’s prudent to keep the photos under wraps to prevent any provocation in the Middle East. If the dust settles in a few months or a year or two, then it might be better to release the photographs then. I think you and I have the patience to wait.

Posted by: Warped Reality at May 9, 2011 10:20 AM
Comment #323001

“Keep in mind that this is more an issue of when the photos are released and not an issue of whether the photos are released.”

Obama has announced he will NOT release the photos, not that they will be released later. I know that at some point they will become public either by being leaked or by a change in policy. The fact that he refuses to release them is a problem as I see it.

Posted by: tdobson at May 9, 2011 11:26 AM
Comment #323006
Obama has announced he will NOT release the photos

Personally, I don’t think Obama is being honest here. The main reason for keeping the pictures under wraps is to prevent anti-American outrage overseas. A change in policy will come someday and we will see the photos. I just don’t see why there is an imminent need to see the photos today instead of next year.

Posted by: Warped Reality at May 9, 2011 1:46 PM
Comment #323008

I understand what you are saying warped, and you are probably right given the way he has flip flopped as much as he has, but it IS his policy and you are only speculating that it will be reversed in the future. I want something concrete. If he announced that he would release the photos on June 16th, 2012 I would accept that and patiently wait. That’s NOT what he has announced.

Posted by: tdobson at May 9, 2011 2:28 PM
Comment #323009

Warped, I agree. Calm and peace are both tentative and fragile right now. The lunacy of some of the principles involved would take so little to upset the fragile balance there is now. I don’t think this is as much an idea that anyone really questions B L’s a part of history now, as it is the need to flex both muscle and control. Anything to try and make Obama jump through hoops and do tricks. Has nothing to do with being either meek or weak, but wise.

Posted by: jane doe at May 9, 2011 2:32 PM
Comment #323013

tdobson,

Fair enough; you made some good points.

I think Obama didn’t promise to relesase photos on such and such a date because he wants to retain the flexibility to adapt his own schedule in reaction to events overseas. I think this is one of those moments where we just have to trust his judgement and pray that he makes the correct decision. Obviously, trusting a politician like this is hard to do; especially when one isn’t as young and naive as I am.

Regarding my speculation, we’ll just have to wait and see if I’m right. I have a sneaky suspicion the photographs will be public before the 2012 election. Despite all this, I think this issue is really just a distraction from the much more important issues we are facing.

Posted by: Warped Reality at May 9, 2011 3:42 PM
Comment #323015

I think is’s all political, warped. His reasoning according to his announcement was that he didn’t want to “spike the ball”, but since the raid, how many trips has he been on to brag about it? I agree with you however, the photos will be made avaliable (probably with a lot of fanfare) before the 2012 elections. He’s waiting till he needs another bump in the polls

Posted by: tdobson at May 9, 2011 5:01 PM
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