The 'Hidden' Cost of Democracy

While the mostly peaceful throngs of citizens, activists and protesters alike have enveloped Madison Wisconsin’s historic Capitol Building over the past two weeks, there’s one cost that few Badger State officials would’ve predicted — a $7.5 million dollar ‘repair’ bill.

It’s kinda ironic, huh?

As it turns out, the thousands of pro-union and anti-Walker crowds have capriciously and without respect for public property, damaged an enormous amount of expensive marble, among other things, throughout Madison’s Statehouse.

Although this price tag, on its face, seems ridiculously high, the fact is, the building was not designed as a crash pad and rallying spot for an angry mob.

There's a rule in the Capitol Building that 'no tape or other adhesive' may be used to affix items to any part of the building. In fact, when signs or communications are necessary, easel boards are displayed. The specific oils and chemicals in different types of tapes and adhesives tend to seep into the porous stone surface of marble and granite, if left too long. It creates a 'stain' that, left alone, causes discoloration.

Take a look at this local Fox News affiliate video that explains the damage.

It's also surprising that the State Fire Marshall did not intervene at some point. Surely a crowd of this size, holed-up in a building not designed to mimic Lambeau Field in Green Bay, would certainly violate the 'persons-allowed' occupancy laws that exist?

The only question left to ask is: which labor union will get the contract to repair the Capitol Building?

Posted by Kevin L. Lagola at March 4, 2011 9:48 AM
Comment #319582

It’s absolute shocking in this day and age for such utter disregard.

Union thuggery 101 and they must be forced to repair the damage it should come straight out of the organizers insurance policy.

Posted by: Anonymous at March 4, 2011 10:33 AM
Comment #319585

I agree with anonymous, the union responsible for the protests should be held responsible for the repair bill or their membership have a fixed amount taken from their pay checks until the bill is paid. The other Tax payers of Wi. should NOT be held responsible for the repair and cleaning of the building and grounds.

Posted by: KAP at March 4, 2011 11:06 AM
Comment #319586

When you hear the phrase “union thuggery” you know you are hearing from a fascist. Intense dislike of labor unions is a hallmark of fascism. Fortunately, fascists are still ashamed enough that they have to hide in anonymity. Other hallmarks of fascism include hyper nationalism, militarism, an urge to kneel to authority, love of corporations, and xenophobia.

So when you hear phrases like “union thuggery,” or religious commentary about submission to one of the Christian Gods (Btw, Islam literally means submission), denouncing illegal immigrants, wearing 1776 regalia, insisting the Defense Budget must not be touched, denouncing the Democratic movements in the Middle East because they overthrow beloved “authoritarian allies” or do not rely on American military force, or approving of the Citizens United Decision because they love them som’ corporations, well… you are hearing from a fascist.

One step away from a Nazi goon.

I invoke Godwin’s Law.

Posted by: phx8 at March 4, 2011 11:15 AM
Comment #319590

The workers in Wisconsin have waged the largest, longest, PEACEFUL protest in the history of the state, and you focus on how scotch tape will discolor some marble? Are you kidding? I can think of no more appropriate use of the state capitol than the way it has given its people a site for protest, and I can think of no more honorable marks than the ones accidentally left by this large, long, popular peaceful protest.

And everytime a conservative uses an offensive phrase about ‘union thugs,’ I will go Godwin on the thread, bring up the brown shirts and jackboots and deap-seated, goose-stepping nature of conservatism, and explain in detail why that is so.

Posted by: phx8 at March 4, 2011 12:32 PM
Comment #319591

Hmm. 7.5 million to remove tape, glue and posters, from what I hear.

So says the Executive Director of the Madison Trust for Historic Preservation:

Remarkably, the protesters have adopted an ownership ethic in the building, treating it with the utmost care and respect. Thousands of signs with protest slogans, information, and wayfinding information are taped to the granite and painted walls, without exception, with low adhesion blue painter’s tape. Memorial installations are left completely free of signage. Trash and recycle bins are prevalent, and there is no discarded trash anywhere. Demonstrators organize daily cleaning crews. They are also evangelistic about their respect for the building. Handwritten signs on glass display cases, rest room doors and granite pillars demand care, cleanliness, and respect for the building they call “Our house.” High humidity and salt and dirt residue may add to the cumulative impact on floors and painted surfaces, but any damage to the building is unintended.

My guess is either one of Gov. Walkers friends needed a way make an easy seven and a half million, or clean up and maintenance was already scheduled, and Walker’s just accusing the Protestors of making the mess to get sympathy from voters.

My guess is that the bigger story, though, will be the Capital Guards tackling one of the State Representatives, instead.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at March 4, 2011 12:33 PM
Comment #319593

I agree with Stephen, here. I’ve seen pictures and video from inside the Capitol, and WITHOUT EXCEPTION, they are using that Painter’s tape, tape which is DESIGNED to be low impact, low adhesive, and protect the surfaces it’s adhered to.

The 7.5 million dollar number is simply a number made up by some vindictive ally of Walker’s to make the protesters look bad, when in fact, they have been courteous, peaceful, and very careful not to damage or mess our Capitol in any way.

I mean, what other protests can you think of that have organized their own cleaning crews to make sure that the building they were occupying is kept just as clean as when they entered it?

Posted by: Mike at March 4, 2011 1:17 PM
Comment #319598

Kevin, I think the pro Islam Sharia Law Vs the anti-Muslim anti-sharia law demonstrations at the White House are worthy or a right wing spin article.

That one, besides being reported by Fox, was actually staged by Fox.

I wonder who cleaned up the little white crosses.

God hates you, but Jesus loves you.

In Wisconsin, from what I’ve read, there was no violence.

I’m sure some of the protesters were threatening violence, people often do that when they are upset.

The Governor was threatening the protesters with violence, but I don’t think he could follow through with it even if he ordered the authorities.

It didn’t come to that because a judge ordered the protesters out of the capital and they left.

The protesters, of course refused that demand when it was made by Snidely.

Other than the tape, can’t you read the sign, did the protesters trash the place, smash furniture, break out windows, etc.?

Is the recall still on?

Posted by: jlw at March 4, 2011 2:12 PM
Comment #319601


The interpretation is that anybody who disagrees with your assessment is a fascist. I can’t believe I am even responding to this pap. Union thuggery has been goin on for decades. I personally experienced the goons more than one time. There are histories of union thuggery abounding. One of the more notorious is the Khoeler Strike. And there are others.

Your description is way out of line. I am not a fascist.

Posted by: ment tom humes at March 4, 2011 3:29 PM
Comment #319606

phx 8, Fascism is an appropriate term to describe what is happening in Wi. There is no doubt that what Walker is doing is part of a larger effort to divest all Wi public sector entities in the interest of privatization. Elimination of the unions removes an obstacle making the effort easier and cheaper once that door is opened to the Koch bros. That reality is not difficult to see at all. You are exactly correct in your use of terminology.

Just out of curiosity. What does intense hate of corporate thuggery make me?

Posted by: RickIl at March 4, 2011 4:42 PM
Comment #319609

I have personally been to Madison twice and will return this weekend to meet up with Kos protesters. The claims of 7.5 million are total hogwash. Even if it were not the city and state has probably made that amount at least a few times over in increased state sales. By current right wing standards if a wall streeter is making 250,000 a year they are just barely getting by and deserving of a tax break. If a teacher is making 50,000 a year they are grossly overpaid, under worked should be making concessions, and apologizing for scamming the tax payer. It simply does not add up folks. No amount of argument can justify even entertaining the validity of that notion.

Posted by: RickIl at March 4, 2011 4:57 PM
Comment #319613

One of my ancestors was murdered for being a union organizer among the silver miners of Nevada. You could call that corporate thuggery. When my Grandmother’s parents died and she was orphaned, the miners passed the hat at the funeral and collected $25 for her. The mine owners provided precisely nothing.

The protesters in WI show no signs whatsoever of being violent or engaging in thuggish behavior. Quite the contrary, when “Koch” called Walker- and please note, Walker took the billionaire’s call, something he would certainly not do if I called- when “Koch” called, Walker indicated he had already considered introducing troublemakers to discredit the protesters.

These people who want to break the unions do not intend for anything good to happen to working people; in fact, they deeply resent it when working people organize.

Posted by: phx8 at March 4, 2011 5:32 PM
Comment #319614

Kevin, this story has already been stepped on. The question is, will Fox report this to their viewers.

A professional estimate of the damage? No, just another fabricated number presented as fact and distributed by Fox.

Posted by: jlw at March 4, 2011 5:35 PM
Comment #319619


The basic question is how can you call me a fascist? Explain that to others as well as myself.

Union thugs set fire to my property and attempted to do bodily harm to my family. For that I am a fascist?

Posted by: tom humes at March 4, 2011 5:59 PM
Comment #319621

Fox “News”… LOL

Were there palm trees transplanted inside the Capital, too????

My basic premise is this….

If Fox News runs it, it is a fabrication at least and an outright lie most often.

The word ‘morality’ and ‘ethics’ should NEVER be used on that entertainment channel. They don’t know the meaning of the words.

Please don’t ever use information garnered from FN as a premise for an argument here. It is not serious political discussion.

On the other hand, perhaps the more FN overplays their hand, the sooner people will come to realize this. Seems the Republican governor has overplayed his hand and I think the backlash will be national.

Posted by: LibRick at March 4, 2011 6:08 PM
Comment #319625

LibRick, There were more than one union demonstration going on. They just happened to film the one in a state which did have palm trees as stated on O’Riely last night. Love the way you libs jump on things before you have the facts straight.

Posted by: KAP at March 4, 2011 6:34 PM
Comment #319632

Read your first comment. When you refer to the protesters in WI as an example of “union thuggery 101” you reflexively attack organized working people with a slur that has no basis in fact. It is the same kind of name calling routinely exercised by Limbaugh & Beck & Hannity & Coulter.

Fascists detest anything that interrupts their unified national worship of authority. When working people organize, this interrupts that wish for unity, that desire behind the nationalism & the religious fervor & the xenophobia & the concept that “the business of America is business.”

As for your own bad experience with unions, I really cannot comment since I know nothing about what happened.

Posted by: phx8 at March 4, 2011 7:03 PM
Comment #319634

phx8 wrote:

The workers in Wisconsin have waged the largest, longest, PEACEFUL protest in the history of the state, and you focus on how scotch tape will discolor some marble? Are you kidding? I can think of no more appropriate use of the state capitol than the way it has given its people a site for protest, and I can think of no more honorable marks than the ones accidentally left by this large, long, popular peaceful protest.”

It was one of those ‘man bites dog’ stories. If you want to posit a different POV or argument, I suggest you sign up to be a ‘writer’ on WB. Otherwise, as most citizens know, freedom of speech in the blogosphere still exists.

Btw, you’ll never see me post anything that is unethical, racial, homophobic, anti-religious, crude, foul, pornographic, discrimanatory or violent.

That’s not my style.

That does not mean that I shouldn’t challenge others’ POV or shy away from controversial topics. Without the former guaranteed right in our nation, we’d be just another run-of-the-mill Republic. We are not, we are a great nation, with great citizens.

Posted by: Kevin L. Lagola at March 4, 2011 7:14 PM
Comment #319636

KAP, funny how often Fox makes ‘mistakes’ (when CAUGHT!) that always reflect poorly on the opposing faction.

Mistake… hey, wanna buy a bridge in NY? You could make a fortune on the tolls!

Posted by: LibRick at March 4, 2011 7:21 PM
Comment #319637

Rick & phx8

I suppose if you use the word “thug” you are a fascist, according to this Godwin guy, whoever that is.

Is Goodwin a fascist?

re fascism in general the fascist/communist age is gone. Nobody really believes in them anymore, outside a few college campus and maybe in North Korea.

When you look at the actual results of fascism/communism, it really is absurd to compare anything in America to that. Millions of people disappeared into Gulags and concentration camps. They were sent there usually not because of their individual “crimes” but because of who they were based on the specific communist (class) or fascist (ethnic) theory involved.

It goes to show how far we are from this kind of thing that Americans can ignorantly throw around such terms and others actually believe them.

Posted by: C&J at March 4, 2011 7:24 PM
Comment #319642

You talk about FOX’s mistakes, what about the liberal media’s lies and half truths, LibRick?

Posted by: KAP at March 4, 2011 7:46 PM
Comment #319655

Look, they’ve done it before, putting in, without any kind of note or qualification, footage from places other than the place they’re covering that makes things look different than they are. When it it came to one tea party rally, they inserted footage of a better attended rally from a few months before.

Here they were talking about union unrest, but rather than show footage from Madison, Wisconsin, they showed something from all the way in Sacramento, and didn’t even bother to tell their viewers.

If you want to accuse the mainstream media of mistakes, by all means, do so. If you want accusations taken seriously, find factual claimse of distortion and bias. Prove those allegations. Liberals can demonstrate a pattern of factual errors and deceptive media practices by FOX. They can point out all the different times anchors have brought politics and sharp political bias into discussions about the facts, with the facts often suffering on that count.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at March 4, 2011 10:03 PM
Comment #319657


We know liberals hate Fox because it broke their hold on the major media.

All the media make lots of mistakes and they often talk before they know what is going on.

The most entertaining case I personally know is about CNN during the coup attempt in Russia. Tanks were approaching the Russian parliament and CNN reported ominously that there was movement and smoke was rising. Actually they were accurate. But the tanks were moving in no direction, because the tank drivers were drinking vodka with the protesters. They made a few fires and were cooking kielbasa. Ominous black smoke was rising. CNN was a couple of miles from the action and never understood what was going on. Worse, they didn’t care. For weeks after that they used the footage on their commercials. They would show the smoke with the narration - when there was trouble in Moscow, CNN was there. This is the problem. They were there, but they had no idea what was really happening.

All the cable networks will sacrifice accuracy for speed and good pictures. Fox and CNN are about equal distance from the center, CNN falling left and Fox right. The difference is not in the quality of their reporting but rather in their choice of stories to cover.

It is always fun to catch someone making a factual error, we can do that with CNN, Fox, MSNBC, CBS etc. But facts are actually less important than the context in which they are embedded. If you want “facts” you can find them on wire services. The facts are given meaning when they are related to other factors.

Posted by: C&J at March 4, 2011 10:28 PM
Comment #319661

Stephen, FOX has it’s faults but so does the liberal media. Like I said once before in a post if you want a conservative approach to the news watch FOX, if you want a liberal approach watch CNN, or MSNBC.

Posted by: KAP at March 4, 2011 11:10 PM
Comment #319678

“We know liberals hate fox because it broke their hold on the major media”

Absolute nonsense.

Like many deeds done by government in the name of competition, The Telecommunications Act of 1996 had the exact opposite effect. Before the act, no company or person could own more than 40 radio stations. Today, as a result of that act, one corporation owns 1200 stations and controls the content of programing on those stations. The same consolidation has permeated every aspect of our communications outlets.

That act was a major part of the ongoing assault of the first amendment.

Fox News is not a conservative alternative to stations like MSMBC. Both are propaganda outlets used by wealth to divide and conquer. These outlets concentrate on divisive issues like abortion, gay marriage, the second amendment, labor Vs management, etc.

Very seldom does MSMBC attack Democrats or Fox attack Republicans and their acceptance of corporate dollars to promote the corporate agenda. MSMBC has on occasion broached the issue of the attack on the first amendment, but they often do it in a partisan way and they haven’t made it a major issue.

The assault on the first amendment should not be a partisan issue. It seeks to control the free dissemination of information to the people by placing a price tag on it. It seeks to promote the profit margin by turning news into propaganda spin and labeling it entertainment. It seeks to make government a slave to the market and wealth. The facts aren’t presented and debated, they are spun and dictated.

The wealth, Democratic, Republican assault on the people is depicted as a war between the Democrats and Republicans.

IMO, labor unions taking to the streets now means they missed the boat. They should have taken it to the streets before Clinton signed NAFTA, before Clinton signed the Chinese trade agreements, when corporations and companies started outsourcing, When this latest round of illegal cheap labor began. Where were the teachers and the AFL/CIO then. Did they show solidarity with the workers that lost their jobs? NO! Not in any way that could be even conceived as effective. Only now, when their jobs, their unions are under attack they ask the people to stand in solidarity with them.

Posted by: jlw at March 5, 2011 3:49 AM
Comment #319681

My breaking point with Fox came when they repeatedly pushed and then retracted stories that said that there were WMDs found in Iraq. At that point I thought in terms of slant, too. But what’s wrong with Fox is worse than a case of unconscious slant.

Everybody has a bias, and not necessarily a pure, political strain. What I watch out for, what I despise, is somebody ignoring the facts to push an agenda. For my part, I fight 9/11 truthers as hard as I do on that count. My belief is that if you distort the facts on a subject, you cripple people’s judgment on the subject as well. If we follow the Truther’s line, we will, in my opinion, fail to deal with the real problems that allowed that terrible event to occur.

That’s why I don’t accept the notion that the policy of the earlier parts of the Iraq war is redeemed by the Post-2006 policy. What was a mistake then, what we know to have been wrong then, remains wrong now.

Same thing with the economy and the fiscal situation. If we don’t learn the right lessons from our mistakes, we’ll blunder right back into them again and again. I want better than that for my country. I don’t want to spend the next twenty years depleting the same crappy policy decisions again and again, because your people insist on being able to vindicate all the policy decisions that didn’t end well.

Outlets like FOXNews enable those in conservative America who will not learn from their mistakes, misinforms an entire part of American society, who give it extraordinary trust, just for the sake of pushing their political agenda. Bias is the least of my concerns when a news organization deliberately leads others into factual errors, like the supposed rowdiness of an actually peaceful demonstration. Or when they rush ahead with am accusation of millions of dollars in damages, based on the word of a partisan official unqualified to field a reliable opinion on the matter.

I don’t mind people having a different point of view on issues, but it seems to me that the right wing in this country’s supporting itself on a misinformation bubble, and even the leaders now seem caught up in the irrational exuberance for floating those bad facts, for believing them.

I literally fear, on that account, what happens when the Republicans take control of something. The party, which I could once respect if not like, seems like a runaway train of bad ideas and sloppy thinking.

That’s why I hate FOXNews: it’s throwing fuel on the fire of this nation’s worst policy problems, by serving a political movement’s interests before the public’s. People need to know the truth to govern themselves well, and FOX is denying them that.


Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at March 5, 2011 8:34 AM
Comment #319683

Stephen, The last 3 paragrephs of your post we could substitute left wing, Democrats, and MSNBC for a conservative point of view.

Posted by: KAP at March 5, 2011 9:38 AM
Comment #319701

I don’t mind you quoting me, but quote me correctly. I did not refer to those in WI as “union thuggery 101”. In fact I did not refer to those in WI in any negative way. Be correct when you are quoting people. It reflects back on you. And I still am not a fascist. I cannot be offended by you but it makes your words look like sloppy work to do things that way.

Posted by: tom humes at March 5, 2011 3:52 PM
Comment #319706

Now here is a question you’ll never see in a New York Times poll:

“Do you favor forcing all state employees to join a union and empowering government unions to take union dues directly from employee paychecks?”

Posted by: Royal Flush at March 5, 2011 4:17 PM
Comment #319707

“Stephen, The last three paragrephs of your post we could substitute left wing, Democrat, and MSMBC for a conservative point of view.”

That right! While conservatives and liberals debate their points of view, your politicians are selling your country off to the highest bidders.

Posted by: jlw at March 5, 2011 4:35 PM
Comment #319734

OK, forget MSNBC, that is a political commentary show just as is FOX News. Both are presenting a slanted view. We won’t get into a debate over how factual one is versus the other when it comes to presenting facts in its support for its agenda, though in my view one is clearly more fact based than the other.

What I want to know is regarding national network news..when did presenting facts, i.e., what I grew up calling news, when did relating actual factual accounts of news events become ‘liberal’?

I suppose if one lives in a deep enough well everything appears as being up.

Posted by: LibRick at March 6, 2011 1:31 AM
Comment #319740

I think we made a mistake going into Iraq in 2003. I do not believe it was done with malice, as you do. Once you are in, you have to make the best choices from then on. It seems like you are finally admitting that the surge was necessary. I was on the ground in Anbar province in 2007-8. I saw the immense progress we made. Most Americans know nothing much about this because the news media did not cover the change.

In fact, most of the mainstream media continued to run old footage, IMO purposely giving the wrong impression. None of the media did a very good job of reporting the changes in the years of 2006-8. Of the major media, Fox did the best job in those years. The others didn’t show up at all or dropped in for a half day.

So if you are still unhappy about coverage of the Iraq war, none of the media did a good job. But that is the nature of reporting. Unfortunately, what you read in the media or see on TV is ALWAYS a framed part of the truth. We literally cannot understand the whole truth. We just cannot process it with our limited cognitive capacity.

We all choose a model to understand what is going on. All the model are incomplete. We have to choose the model that gives us the best results. I was not in Iraq in 2003. I do not know the situation back then first hand. I was in Western Iraq in 2007-8. I can tell you that even after we defeated the insurgency, it was still very hard to find accurate information.

Your ideas about WMD, that is was easy to know the truth, do not track with the experience of people who actually have to investigate these things. It is very is to think you can know everything when you never have to actually walk on the ground and make assessments. It is simply more complicated and less certain than you think it is.

Let me recommend you try a simple exercise. Find someone you know who habitually lies and maybe has some delusions. Try to find out from him/her accurate information about something that happened in his/her life a couple years ago. Tell me how confident you are about what you have found out. Now consider that you have to make decisions based on that information and your interpretations of its veracity. Maybe now you understand a little more how hard it is to make decisions.

Returning to Fox - I do not expect that you should watch Fox all the time. But anybody interested in understanding current events in the U.S. MUST watch Fox, if only to understand the agendas. If you insist on believing Fox is evil or misguided, think of how it was in the old Soviet Days. Everybody knew there was no truth in Pravda and no news in Investia (it is a joke in Russian, BTW), but anybody who wanted to understand the Soviet Union needed to keep track of these publications to see the trends. So hate Fox if you must, but don’t remain ignorant of it.

Posted by: C&J at March 6, 2011 9:52 AM
Comment #319744

mike says

“I agree with Stephen, here. I’ve seen pictures and video from inside the Capitol, and WITHOUT EXCEPTION, they are using that Painter’s tape, tape which is DESIGNED to be low impact, low adhesive, and protect the surfaces it’s adhered to.”

the regulations say tape may not be used to affix anything to the walls. i didn’t realize there was an exception for painters tape. NO ONE should be taping anything to the walls. don’t like that change the regulations to exempt painters tape. the only signs allowed should have been the ones they could hold.

Posted by: dbs at March 6, 2011 2:59 PM
Comment #319751

Condemn them to hell, they are humans. Just like those littering with little white crosses.

Posted by: jlw at March 6, 2011 5:17 PM
Comment #319753


what’s your point? i didn’t say they had no right to be there, only that they had no right to tape things to the walls. regulation prohibited it.

Posted by: dbs at March 6, 2011 6:10 PM
Comment #319757
I think we made a mistake going into Iraq in 2003.

Really, from the mouth of babes…

There is and was sufficient evidence to indicate that the previous administration had their mind set to invade Iraq no matter what, despite the evidence. Furthermore the previous administration and the Republican Party actively sought to silence those that disagreed with them, calling these people misinformed or unpatriotic and sometimes both.

Therefore I would agree with you, the mainstream media did a poor job of exposing Bush and his administration.

Even this week, I heard a commentator on Fox mention the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Posted by: Cube at March 6, 2011 7:19 PM
Comment #319758


Saddam had WMD in the early 1990s. There are no records of what happened to the bulk of them. None were found in 2004.

re 2003, I have written that on many occasions, based on what we know now.

This silencing thing is simply absurd. All the people were talking so loud and frequently about being silences that it was hard to hear anything else.

The media did a poor job of describing the changing events in 2006-7. That is why you don’t understand them. It is not your fault.

Posted by: C&J at March 6, 2011 8:11 PM
Comment #319762


Hans Blix – head of United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission, Richard Clarke – Counterterrorism Chief, and others warned prior to the invasion that it was a mistake. My first misgiving was when Saddam offered to allow inspectors but our President said it was too late. We were told any delays would cause problems with our tanks, that did not do well in intense desert heat – come on now!

Don’t tell me I didn’t understand the changing events of 2006 and 2007 – as I was one of the few moderate Democrats here who supported the surge. That doesn’t mean Bush didn’t manipulate the press and get us involved in the wrong war. If you need Bush to admit this, you’ll never get it. My hope is “slam dunk” Colin Powell may eventually speak up.

Posted by: Cube at March 7, 2011 12:45 AM
Comment #319798

dbs, for you, the story is about the tape. For me the story is about the story and the falsified $7.5 billion.

“in the U.S. MUST watch Fox.” if you want falsified information like $7.5 billion in damages.

The more you watch Fox News and MSMBC the more you understand how much they are in bed with eachother.

Posted by: jlw at March 8, 2011 3:45 PM
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