Visualizing a Political Continuum

Over the course of several years, and particularly in recent months, I’ve become convinced that our national political discussion has become mired in labels which are no longer meaningful. Bluntly, our discussions of economic and political issues are no longer being informative. Our discussions are merely creating forums for using our prejudices as tools with which to manipulate us.

An example of what I mean would be the constant use of the terms "conservative" and "liberal" so championed by people like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity suggesting American politics is practiced on a linear continuum. By dealing with the labels that only illuminate prejudice we all, regardless of party or philosophy, are no longer either learning or teaching. Any discussion becomes, rather, a rhetorical tennis match in which we are required to choose sides, whether those bearing the banner of our allegiance really advance our interests or not. Even Limbaugh decries the "elites" in his own party, who are themselves centralizers of power, though his rhetoric plays into their hands. So much for tying half his brain behind his back.

My most recent post was intended to set up a discussion of how we can break free of the tyrrany of our current prejudicial labels by putting forth a more informed notion of how "governance" really functions. In any successful system individuals must ultimately govern their own actions with an eye toward their own welfare and the sustainability of society or the functions of society become so burdened with steering individuals that they can't bear the weight of such administration. On the other hand, a society without any means of enforcing some cooperation among people whose unmanaged actions would harm others is unsustainable. Thus society presents a natural axis of tension between self-governance and the centralization of authority. There is, however, another natural axis of tension between focusing the work of the individual or society on doing good for others and focusing the individual or society on promoting self-interest. To help with visualizing this I've created a Triangle Political Graph.

On the horizontal axis in such a visualization the tension is between self-sacrifice and profit (in the sense in which the word was understood two centuries ago) or practicality. On this axis American liberals are likely to fall in the 3 to 5 range, while American conservatives will probably fall in the 5 to 7 range. On the vertical axis representing a human liberty scale (0 for pure collective control and 10 for pure self governance) both American liberals and American conservatives would probably fall in the 4 to 7 range. Libertarians may drift as far as 8 on the self-governance axis, but no serious thinker will imagine pure self-govenance to be practical in an advanced industrial society.

I like this conceptual model because if you place people based on their desires and perceptions you'd probably find most "liberals" think the opposite end of their political continuum would be something like corporate totalitarianism, while most "conservatives" would think the opposite end would be government totalitariansim. In this model their perspectives makes real sense. In the meantime power is most easily concentrated by centralizers of any stripe, so the power structures of the parties representing both groups are far closer to the line between pure government power and pure corporate power than the general populations of liberals and conservatives they represent. The reason party politics does not give people what they want becomes clearer as well.

Does this solve the problem of visualizing America's political continuum? No. Even this abstraction, while far more revealing than the linear model, lacks sensitivity to issues like religion and race, but there comes a point when modelling becomes so precise it is no longer amenable to easy communication. The results of such precision would be almost impossible to draw conclusions useful to voters from.

This triangle political contiuum is an attempt to substitute a new, measurable concept for a preconception that has become opaque, not in spite of our discussion of it, but BECAUSE of our discussion. In politics the dominant cultural paradigm is failing us. It is not providing conceptual tools to make reality clear to the uninformed. This is only one of the most obvious failures of our culture to provide adequate avenues to understanding. In race relations, religion, and in countless other arenas we are permitting ourselves to be sucked into useless debates founded in unrevealing cultural paradigms. Basically we are told to take up one banner or another and root for "our" team in nonsensical contests that only empower those who would centralize power.

And all this is happening because on both sides of the presented political divide the centralizers dominate the media presenting issues to us.

Plot yourself and your friends on this graph by asking questions germane to the lines of tension. "Where do I want the balance between governmental power and corporate power?" for example. Another would be "Where do I want the balance between a managed life and freedom?" My self-assessment places me about 4 on the horizontal axis and about 7 on the vertical axis. Yes, my politics is to the "right" of how I direct my own life.

Also plot where you think entities in our society would be placed on the chart. (Democratic Party, Republican Party, Catholic Church, etc.)

Readers are welcome to suggest improvements to the graph. I'm not attempting to impose an ideological slant here, but to develop a better way of assessing our politics, and those of the people who would lead us.

Posted by Lee Emmerich Jamison at February 11, 2010 11:32 AM
Comments
Comment #295458

Lee

Your graph is interesting, but I think it still gives too much pattern to something that is protean and multivariate.

The main reason I support markets is not profit; it is that markets provide the most effective means of aggregating information and making reasonable projections and risk analysis.

The reason you need profit in the system is to gauge and elicit commitment. A lot of people have opinions, but they have no “skin in the game”.

It is a luxury to be involved. But remember the difference between involvement and commitment when you eat a ham and eggs breakfast. The chicken is involved; the pig is committed. His ass is in it.

As I have progressed through the stages of life, I have come to understand the importance of this. You can be passionately involved, but not committed. The Yeats poem captures this:

“The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity.”

Politics favors passionate intensity, which is one reason I think it a good thing to limit the reach of politics as much as possible. That makes me conservative, no matter how where I fit on the charts.

Posted by: Christine at February 11, 2010 12:55 PM
Comment #295459

Lee,
This is an interesting concept, but I’m confused regarding your horizontal axis. Usually when I see conservatives trampling on personal liberty, the excuse is “for the common good”. I’m talking about things like the Patriot Act, banning Same-Sex Marriage, Don’t ask don’t tell, Pro-life rhetoric etc…

On the other hand, liberals often phrase their expansion of government in terms of the good it will do for the economy. Examples include Environmentalist/Anti-Climate Change proposals, expansions in funding for government sectors such as health-care and education and the stimulus bill infrastructure projects.

Maybe there is a better way to describe this horizontal axis? I get your drift that conservatives and liberals curb freedoms a bit more than libertarians do and that conservatives and liberals curb these freedoms by coming from different angles/motivations. The question is how do we categorize those angles/motivations.

Posted by: Warped Reality at February 11, 2010 12:59 PM
Comment #295462

The Republicans have a problem: They cannot keep whatever gains they get unless they move to the center. They cannot, though, move to the center without alienating those they have chosen to make their base.

Republicans can raise a lot of hell for a few years, to get what they want, but in the end, they will have to deliver for regular people, or their butts will end up right back where they started.

The Republicans must resolve that tension, or the Democrats will hold an advantage in that they can appeal to their base by taking on the issues at hand. Sooner or later, the Democrats in Washington will come around, and when that happens, the Republicans will have a tough time competing without sacrificing some part of their constituency.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at February 11, 2010 2:36 PM
Comment #295466

When you were talking about a three cornered government, a picture in Newsweek of a guy in a three cornered hat came to mind:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/233331/page/1

It’s hard for me to visualize a continuum from these freaks. This is quantum Politics.

Posted by: gergle at February 11, 2010 3:12 PM
Comment #295467

Christine,

My reasons for supporting markets are the same, hence the caveat about the old meaning of the word “profit”, which once was an entirely positive conception dealing with the gathering, for effective and practical utilization, of resources. We no longer have a word in English for this laudable function.

“Liberal” and “conservative” are non-concepts, almost entirely fluid, and useful only for misleading people and benefitting from prejudice. I can’t support jargon whose function is to hide an inexorable march of the innocent public of both parties toward collectivism.

Posted by: Lee Jamison at February 11, 2010 3:24 PM
Comment #295468

Lee, what you propose is just a more complex continuum of separation and factionalization identifying differences between Americans.

As such, I don’t think it offers much in the way of solution. Make your continuum 3 dimensional and tubular shaped such that the apex end sprials outward toward the funnel end, and what you have is cyclical interactive influences. And example is warranted to translate this visual geometry into something more readily identifiable.

Individual freedom, in a society, can be enhanced by that society by providing all its individuals services which the individual need not concern themselves with, thus freeing up their time, resources, and energy for other choices and pursuits. A military, police, and justice system which defends our borders and property for example, preempts the need of every citizen having to train and maintain minute man skills to defend their own homes and livelihoods. This frees individuals, but, there is a price to be paid for those services and that freedom. Freedom has never been free, as the arms race from the dawn of man began exemplifies, and with metals becoming currency for trade by virtue of the ease with which they could be converted into shields, swords and other armaments.

What this establishes is a feedback loop of influence, in which, up to a point, government and the private commercial sector enhance individual freedom and widen choices, but, at a price. The point at which the price limits choice and freedom beyond individual expectations (realistic or not), is the point at which government, or the private sector cease to be liberating and become liabilities and constrictions upon choice and opportunity. Monopolies on the one hand (the private sector), and Communism on the other (government), lie at the extremes on one end, and anarchy on the other.

In reality and normally in American history, American society lies in the middle of these extremes, vascillating back and forth in direction toward these extremes but, within a narrowly defined range still in the middle area, depending on whether Democrats or Republicans (Populists or Whigs) were changing the direction.

Historically, however, these opposing parties assumed their roles, in turn, as majority and then minority Party, in response to the perceived need of the people for a change in direction, via elections. And historically, the Minority Party debated and employed various tactics to incorporate and retain some of their agenda in the Majority’s shift in direction, acting as check and balance against violent and rapid changes in direction which threaten to move the nation out of the middle and toward the extremes mentioned above.

That check and balance system however, is now breaking down before our very eyes, as the 110th and 111th Congress’ create grid lock and rigidity which are not permitting the voters majority will to shift direction to take place. Democrats from 2007 to 2009 blocked a good deal of Republicans agenda, and Republicans are now doing the same but to a radically further extend halting the government from making any directional shift in accordance with the voter’s choice in 2008.

The Minority Party has adopted a “My way, or, No Way in Hell”, stance, which is halting the government and the people from enacting solutions to the challenges that face the nation, allowing those challenges to grow and overcome the nation’s ability to solve them.

This is a very, very, dangerous development, as the unfunded liabilities of the entitlement programs begin to drive our national debt toward defaulting and bankrupting levels, not dissimilar from what Greece, Spain and Portugal are experiencing as a result of their unsustainable debt, and which now threatens the integrity of the entire European Union. Just as deficits and debt are threatening the Union of the States in America, with Tx. Gov. Perry appealing to the Secessionist crowds there, or Sarah Palin’s Hubbie’s membership in Secessionist organizations in Alaska.

In the meantime, as government is growing more and more paralyzed, corporations who brought us this Great Recession are profiting handsomely and going about their business as usual shoring up the next bubble of enormous profits, leveraged to lofty heights and concentrating ever more of American wealth and currency into a minority population’s assets and bank accounts, foreign and domestic, leaving the majority of Americans working harder for even less money circulating through the economy at their disposal, and driving them to view each other not as neighbors, and co-workers, but as threats known by their voting preference Party label.

And all this is unfolding due to one very simple and absolutely easy to grasp rule, 60 votes to end a filibuster in the Senate. Were that rule to reflect 51 votes, none of this would now be taking place. Democrats as the Majority Party would be installing their solutions to the nations needs for solutions, and Republicans would be bargaining, debating, reasoning, and compromising with Democrats to improve legislation so that it would appeal to a wider majority of the public.

What worked in the past, no longer works today. Horses and carriages and stage coaches worked to speed commerce and economic activity across American at one time. Today, they would grind our economy to a near dead halt. The same is true of the 60 vote cloture rule in the Senate. Before the Minority Party defined obstruction to government governing as a political tool to shift public opinion against the majority Party, the 60 vote rule worked very well. But, things have changed, and the 60 vote rule is now the horse and buggy forcing our nation into paralysis with regard to the rapidly growing threats to our country’s future, and dividing Americans in ways that may rival the North and South in the late 1850’s just prior to the outbreak of the Civil War.

One simple rule change, and nearly all of this goes away or gets reduced to manageable levels. The question is, is it even politically possible now, to make this rule change, given the paralysis that has set into the polarized Congress by our Democrat and Republican representatives?

Posted by: David R. Remer at February 11, 2010 3:25 PM
Comment #295469

Warped,
To a certain extent we have to divorce ourselves from direct comparison of what parties DO with what they SAY. All the rage, today, is discussion about the chasm that rests between Obama campaign rhetoric (transparency, taxes, lobbyists, etc.) and what his administration and Democrats in power have actually DONE. Eight years ago it was all the rage to claim George Bush was stupid because he was keeping campaign promises.
That’s all neither really here nor there. George Bush told us he was conservative. That means something different to liberals than it does to conservatives and if you chart where the two groups would wind up on my triangle you can get some insight as to why conservatives scream that he’s not when liberals disagree. Same’s true when modeate Democrats are alarmed at the growth of government and deficits in the current administration.

This thing is just a tool- a damn sight better tool than the current terminology.

Gergle,
The Tea Party people are the people this chart gives you the best insight to. They are the people in both parties who reside well down the vertical axis. Last time I looked nothing in the Constitution denied them a voice in politics, and if they become convinced you mean to be a part of effectively eliminating their voice from politics they ultimately will shoot you.

Posted by: Lee Jamison at February 11, 2010 3:43 PM
Comment #295470

S.D. said:

The Republicans have a problem: They cannot keep whatever gains they get unless they move to the center. They cannot, though, move to the center without alienating those they have chosen to make their base.

That is the most succinct summation of the internal dilemma and war going on inside the GOP, that I have yet read or heard. VERY well said.

But, as always, with succinct encapsulations, it leaves out a caveat. Those they would alienate by moving to the Center, have no other party they would vote for. Therefore, the worst case for the GOP is that as much as 50% of the alienated base doesn’t show up to vote. Though I think that percentage to be much smaller given the paranoia of liberals. So, it is not nearly as dire for the GOP as your well phrased summary alludes to.

And the Republicans know this. Which is why they are acting far more confident than surface appearances would seem to justify. Both parties do secret internal polling not available to the public. No doubt, their polling is giving them evidence for this caveat of which I speak.

Their bigger problem is losing the moderates, not the more far right base. Moderates have been jumping the GOP ship since 2004, some to become Democratic voters, but, most to become Independents, some of whom are now associated with the Tea Party, but, by no means most.

The Tea Party I am coming to glean is a hodge podge of right wing extremists each with their own issue extremism from abortion to racism. The weave that binds them together is not their varying extremist positions on varying issues which in fact, divides them into splinter groups, it is fear of liberals and Obama in particular, and fiscal responsibility issues that weave them together into a community under one name. They are therefore, just Republicans who have been let down by the Republicans in power from 2001 to 2009 on one issue or another, but most especially for governing like Democrats, in their perception.

Posted by: David R. Remer at February 11, 2010 4:49 PM
Comment #295471


Just as importantly, what are the Democrats internal polls telling them about their taken for granted constituents, the more progressive ones. Quite a number of them are upset with the Party’s center-right stance. How will that effect Democratic turnout?

Posted by: jlw at February 11, 2010 6:39 PM
Comment #295472

Glen Beck actually looks sane next to a Tea Party memeber:

http://current.com/items/92117531_glenn-beck-slams-tea-partie-s-debra-medina-on-9-11-truthers-the-audio.htm

Posted by: gergle at February 11, 2010 8:55 PM
Comment #295473

Stephen

Is it possible to write a note w/o attacking Republicans? Lee came up with an interesting paradigm to try to understand left and right. It might be interesting to comment on that.

David

Our government should create conditions under which people can provide themselves with the goods and services that they consider necessities. We need a safety net for those who cannot or will not take care of themselves, but we should define necessities narrowly and not try to equalize outcomes.

Most Americans can and do provide themselves with necessities such as food, clothing and shelter most of the time under the conditions our society and government has created. I think most of us take pride and get significant satisfaction from doing just that.

Re the Senate – don’t worry about that. When the Republicans win 5-7 seats this November they will be able to have decent debates and discussions. There will be a good chance, however, that lots of the more leftist ideas will go down in the debate, as moderate Democrats join Republicans in voting them down in the straight up vote.

The country is swinging back toward the middle, as it does after a left or right swing. Let’s hope that this time is stays nearer the middle.

Jlw

I think this is the general danger of deciding to play to the base rather than the general electorate. It can be successful. That was the Karl Rove strategy that won for the Republicans in 2003 & 2004. But it runs into trouble in the longer run. The Democratic base is significantly to the left of the American electorate. The things that will make them happy are not the things that will get Democrats elected in the long run.

Democrats may learn from the Republican hubris after their big wins in 2004, but I doubt it. Unfortunately, both parties are dominated by their more passionate wings and these people think that everybody else is either on their side, nuts or craven.

Posted by: Christine at February 11, 2010 8:58 PM
Comment #295474

David

Re the Tea Parties - C&J attended a couple. It is indeed a hodgepodge, but it is a mistake to characterize them as racists or abortion weirdos. What holds the movement together, such as it is held together, is an opposition to increased government spending, government incompetence and growing size of government in general.

I don’t think the movement has much staying power, precisely because it is such a hodgepodge. But it has provided a useful break on what seemed to be a leftist juggernaut and we can thank them for that.

Posted by: Christine at February 11, 2010 9:13 PM
Comment #295482

Christine
Did you see any people of color at those tea parties?

Lee

So liberals see corporate totalitarianism and conservatives see government totalitarianism? I would submit totalitarian systems are ALWAYS composed of corporate controlled governments. Slavery is ALWAYS caused and sustainned by a natural alliance between economic institutions and governning institutions. They become the same thing.

Posted by: bills at February 12, 2010 5:21 AM
Comment #295485

Bills

Yes I did. But you are right that the demographics are skewed toward middle America. The group was also significantly older than average. So what?

I have never seen a demonstration that really “looks like America”. Most of them have more young people than the American average and many are more diverse than the U.S.

If you are looking at a “representative” demonstration of 100 American, 75 would look white (although nine of them would be Hispanic too) 13 would look black (although a couple of them would also be Hispanic too). There might be four Asians, one native American and a few that called themselves multiethnic. The median age would be almost 38. Have you ever seen a demonstration like that?

Actually, the Tea Party looks more like America than most Demonstrations.

Posted by: Christine at February 12, 2010 9:16 AM
Comment #295486

jlw,

It will affect turnout. But, it is not clear yet if it will be by a lot, or little. Depends on Democrats rallying cries. If Democrats convincingly can sell to their progressives that the threat of Republican majority is real in the 2010 elections, then, I venture the progressive turnout will not be diminished by much. Failing that, progressives may substantially stay home.

Posted by: David R. Remer at February 12, 2010 9:54 AM
Comment #295488

Bills,

So liberals see corporate totalitarianism and conservatives see government totalitarianism? I would submit totalitarian systems are ALWAYS composed of corporate controlled governments. Slavery is ALWAYS caused and sustainned by a natural alliance between economic institutions and governning institutions. They become the same thing.
Exactly what I’ve been saying for years. Funny how some people can’t hear what I’m saying when I say it…

Bill, in an earlier iteration of this chart I had the tension of the horizontal line drawn between public and private ownership. The trouble with that idea was, of course that once human activity is controlled from the top it is logically irrelevant how OWNERSHIP is ostensibly assigned. I toyed with correcting the chart by making it cicrular, arranging the poles 120 degrees apart, but it seemed simpler to find some idealized, but unreachable poles and keep the thing a triangle.

At some point one must understand that abstractions are not reality. They are pictures of reality, and are intended to make given aspects of reality easier to grasp (unless one is dealing with politicians, in which case abstractions are meant to hide reality). For this picture of reality I chose to represent the seminal difference between the nonsense of the far left and the nonsense of the far right as being the contest of unfettered idealism and unfettered practicality. It is possible for people to conceive of a government that controlls everything to create a Utopia. Likewise it is possible to conceive a perfectly practical corporate world where life is good, just as it is possible to coceive of a society so well adjusted and educated that no one needs government at all. For the porpose of this picture I chose to represent those conceivable but unrealizable ideals as the highest representations of the poles of governance I posited in the article posted four days ago.

Again, the point is not to say this is reality. It is to say this is a more informative image of reality than the image used today by politicians and political commentators to manipulate us. Do you want to understand the Tea Partiers? It can’t be done on a conservative/liberal linear continuum. This image can help. Do you want to understand why the Republican base despises John McCain? Same thing. The same is true of why independents are flying in hoards from the Democratic party and why liberal-leaning pundits are now insulting the intelligence of the electorate in the United States. This image does not reveal everything, but it DOES reveal many things the linear continuum is utterly insensitive to.

Posted by: Lee Jamison.com at February 12, 2010 10:06 AM
Comment #295489

Christine said: “Our government should create conditions under which people can provide themselves with the goods and services that they consider necessities.”

That sounds so simple. In reality, it is extremely complex. Preventing the banking sector and mortgage industry meltdown would have gone a long way toward creating conditions that would Americans to continue providing for themselves. Millions and millions of Americans however, were denied the opportunity to provide for themselves by the greed of the corporate private sector and the blind eye of government under Republicans.

So, while your statement sounds easy and simple enough, it is anything but.

Christine said: “We need a safety net for those who cannot or will not take care of themselves, but we should define necessities narrowly and not try to equalize outcomes.”

Here, you and I agree entirely. I believe access to health care, shelter, food, and productive activity are essential as necessities. Insuring these necessities in no way attempts to equalize outcomes between 100 million dollar per year CEO’s and laid off workers. Those CEO’s have an obligation to their own corporations and future business in the U.S. to pay a share of their wealth to support and defend the society and government that protects and defends their corporation’s ability to conduct profitable business in the U.S.

Christine said: “Re the Senate – don’t worry about that. When the Republicans win 5-7 seats this November they will be able to have decent debates and discussions. There will be a good chance, however, that lots of the more leftist ideas will go down in the debate, as moderate Democrats join Republicans in voting them down in the straight up vote.”

Poppycock. Do you honestly believe the Republicans are going to get away with this obstructionism as the means to regaining power? Naive. If Republicans pick up enough seats, Democrats will demonstrate their ability as students of GOP tactics today, and do to Republicans what Republicans are now doing to Democrats. Why on earth would you think these tactics can only be employed by Republicans?

It is damaging to the nation the precedent Republicans are establishing today. Can you not see that? Politically, there is nothing to stop this obstructionist tactic from escalating regardless of who holds the majority in the Senate. Nothing, that is, save an overwhelming anti-incumbent movement targeting both parties.

I just learned from Sen. Reid that changing the cloture vote from 60 to a lower number is not politically possible, due to the requirement to do so, which is a 2/3 vote of the Senate. That option and potential solution is off the table in realistic terms. So, escalation of Republican’s obstructionism seems to be the future of the Senate and the demise of our government’s ability to address the serious threats to our future.

Thanks so very much, Republicans. What you didn’t destroy for our future while in power, you are finishing as the minority.

Posted by: David R. Remer at February 12, 2010 10:14 AM
Comment #295491

By the way, there is something to be said for anyone interested in politics trying to find ways to represent our distribution of polarities and opinions. Doing so forces people to climb at least part-way out of the pit of bigotry we all live in.

For example, Bills points out that totalitarianism of any stripe is essentially the same. Could that not also be said for any measure of Utopia? For a perfect society to exist would it not be necessary that all the people be perfectly cooperative? And would that not imply they didn’t really need governance, either “public” or “corporate”? So, one could, conceivably, stretch this triangle over a sphere where the three ideals meet somewhere in the back.

Again, the point here is not to find a sneaky way to make you agree with me politically. It is to find an open and above board way to get you to examine the politics of the United States, purge our thoughts of the nonsensical good vs. evil dichotomy, and illustrate how much more we, even liberals and conservatives, have in common than we share with those who wish to rule us.

Posted by: Lee Jamison at February 12, 2010 10:23 AM
Comment #295492

Christine said: “It is indeed a hodgepodge, but it is a mistake to characterize them as racists or abortion weirdos. What holds the movement together, such as it is held together, is an opposition to increased government spending, government incompetence and growing size of government in general.”

Thank you for agreeing and reiterating what I wrote, assuming the last part of your last sentence equates with my reference to deficits and debt, which, it may not. Size of government is irrelevant except, if the size is too small, or too big to service the needs of the nation or the people. The whole ‘smaller government’ mantra is idiotic. It is as ridiculous as a Leftist mantra for smaller military, regardless of the type or amount of military threat aimed at the U.S. The size needs to be sufficient to meet the needs of the nation and people. It is after all, the people’s government by design, if not in reality.

The Tea Party being Republican voters and conservatives, are irrelevant except for the media attention they have garnered for the glue issue that binds them. Exposing themselves as Republicans by joining with the GOP in S.C. was a light shown upon them that might more wisely have avoided, in order to maintain the appearance of independence. But, that’s water under the bridge, now.

As Republicans, Tea Partyers can now be held responsible as Republicans by the public at large, for the greed and excess on Wall Street which brought down our economy, and responsible for rising health care costs which are drowning families, and responsible for the GOP’s fighting oppose regulation and oversight of big banks and corporations, and responsible for supporting more and more tax cuts for the rich, while the rest of Americans see real wages decline even further making their families poorer every decade.

As Republicans, Tea Partyers are nothing special. Therefore, I agree with you, the movement will not have much, or any, staying power.

Posted by: David R. Remer at February 12, 2010 10:31 AM
Comment #295493

David Remer,

The Tea Party I am coming to glean is a hodge podge of right wing extremists each with their own issue extremism from abortion to racism. The weave that binds them together is not their varying extremist positions on varying issues which in fact, divides them into splinter groups, it is fear of liberals and Obama in particular, and fiscal responsibility issues that weave them together into a community under one name. They are therefore, just Republicans who have been let down by the Republicans in power from 2001 to 2009 on one issue or another, but most especially for governing like Democrats, in their perception.
This assessment illustrates exactly why the linear continuum fails you. Are there far right-wingers in the Tea Party movement? Yes. There are also 9/11 “truthers”, a lot of disgruntled independents, and a healthy number of Democrats (upwards of 20% of the movement by some counts). They are not all one thing but they all have elements of dissatisfaction in common that are invisible if you cling to tradtional ways of classifying politics.

You and Stephen can just go merrily along sniping Republicans, but outside of the party apparatchiks your target does not exist.

Posted by: Lee Jamison at February 12, 2010 10:50 AM
Comment #295498

Lee, yes, there are conservative Democrats, which explains the polls reflecting that 22% of Democrats approve of Tea Party concerns.

The fact that Democrats have a minority of conservatives does not make the Democratic Party conservative. By the same logic, 1 in 5 Tea Partyers having registered Democrat by some estimate or another, does not make the Tea Party a bi-partisan organization or non-partisan organization. The Tea Party population as a whole is made up mostly of Republican voters, subscribing to Republican conservative philosophy, if not Republican actions.

Nice try at the defensive spin, though!

Posted by: David R. Remer at February 12, 2010 11:21 AM
Comment #295499

Lee, how is objective analysis and critique of Republicans, “sniping”. Is objective analysis and critique of Democrats, “sniping”?

C’mon. Dispense with the partisan defensiveness and join the plurality of voters in America who could care less about what you call a rose. Let’s just get about the business of insuring the future is laden with roses and not white lilies, by championing no Party, but solutions to problems, instead.

Posted by: David R. Remer at February 12, 2010 11:25 AM
Comment #295500

I agree that our national discussion is being driven by labels, but what I’m hearing is that anyone who makes any proposal that involves government oversight at all is a socialist. So - if you’re even a one on your scale, you’re a “socialist”. I actually heard some Republican or other say this flat out in a nationally televised interview and no one said boo.

I don’t understand the Republican opposition to Obama’s proposals. They don’t like the stimulus that Bush drafted, Republicans supported, and most economists of any ilk would say was necessary. It consisted mostly of tax cuts and support fort the unemployed. They don’t like the Health care proposal that will save millions down the road, because they feel whatever plan is put in place should be totally and completely cost and government free.

I just don’t get it. If you look at Obama’s proposals, you could easily think he was a moderate conservative, or even a right extremist. In most of the world, that’s how he would be classified. It’s absolutely pathetic these two groups can’t get on the same page politically when there’s a razor thin difference between them ideologically.

Posted by: Max at February 12, 2010 11:43 AM
Comment #295503

Max,

For the sake of intelligent classification I’m going to say we use a north by west number system, in keeping with the numbers on the chart, in which case an n1w1 would, by this chart, be a hyper-communist. On the other hand an n5w5 would be a dead-steady centrist. From our discussions in the past I would class you in the threes in both categories. Daugherty is probably an n2w2, only a little to the north-west of where the Obama-led Democratic Party is. The Democratic base is more in the n3-7 by w3-5.

The Republican Party mechanism is in the n3-4w7-8 range, while the party’s base is n4-7 by w4-8.

If you don’t understand Republican opposition print out my chart and start putting some of these ranges on it. Then if you don’t understand you’re not trying. (or, perhaps, you think it better for people not to understand…)

Posted by: Lee Jamison at February 12, 2010 12:37 PM
Comment #295504

David

I agree that the government should be the “right size,” which would imply in Goldilocks fashion neither too big nor too small. The optimal size would also vary depending on circumstances. This second point is a key problem. Government is sort of like a ratchet that can much more easily get bigger than smaller. It gets bigger when the need arises, but then resists getting back to a smaller size when that is more appropriate.

Re the Tea Party “held responsible” for Republicans – I never believe in collective guilt. Parties in America are amorphous. Various ideas and leader have their time and then depart. We should be “held responsible” for our ideas until we change them.

We agree that the Tea Parties will be ephemeral. But I repeat that they did the country a great service by giving a flat tire to the big government wagon that was rolling down at us after the great Democratic victories in 2008. We can look forward to a 2010 that will be more moderate than 2009 and one reason is that power of the Tea Party.

Posted by: Christine at February 12, 2010 1:01 PM
Comment #295506

David and Christine,
What the Tea party does is hold the established parties feet to the fire of the public’s demand to be represented. Democrats should take absolutely no comfort in the fact a substantial number of tea partizans are Democrats, even if that number is small, because it means a party meant to represent what the people believe apparently doesn’t. The same and only more so applies to Republicans.

Can you say “Whig” children?

There are people decrying the American public as ungovernable. Not so. They just won’t be represented or governed by people who consider them stupid.

Posted by: Lee Jamison at February 12, 2010 2:18 PM
Comment #295507

Christine said: “This second point is a key problem. Government is sort of like a ratchet that can much more easily get bigger than smaller. It gets bigger when the need arises, but then resists getting back to a smaller size when that is more appropriate.”

I agree with you 100% Christine on this very important observation. It is important, nonetheless, to segregate the fact that government MUST increase in size as the population increases, as opposed to increasing in size for temporary conditions and failing to decrease when those conditions abate.

Bush’s tax cuts are a perfect example. They were issued to address the circumstance of high consumer demand and the inability of many businesses to expand to meet that demand as a result of a constriction in capital lending due to the Tech Bubble bursting. They were issued with an expiration date well beyond the end of that temporary condition.

Today, consumer demand has retreated, and businesses are no longer failing to grow as a result of a lack of capital to expand. They are not growing due to a lack of consumer demand. Ergo, allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire as intended, is precisely what is called for, IF one subscribes, as you appear to, the notion that the size and cost of government should shrink when circumstances change and warrant.

Allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire, will increase government revenues and reduce both deficits and debt going forward, without negatively affecting business growth or economic activity in any significant way. The government is spending money to induce more consumer confidence and consumption to increase economic activity, and expiration of the Bush tax cuts will help offset spending to induce consumption demand, which is exactly what business is now craving for.

Christine said: “But I repeat that they did the country a great service by giving a flat tire to the big government wagon that was rolling down at us after the great Democratic victories in 2008.”

That is pure sophistry and mislabeling of reality. It WAS NOT the Tea Partyers who stopped Democrat’s legislation (big gov’t. wagon as you call it). It WAS the obstructionist tactics of Republicans in the Senate, bringing solutions to our nation’s problems to a grinding halt.

Posted by: David R. Remer at February 12, 2010 2:28 PM
Comment #295508

Lee said: “What the Tea party does is hold the established parties feet to the fire of the public’s demand to be represented.”

That was true, Lee, while they maintained the appearance of being Independent. It will not work now, going forward, as they have aligned themselves, forthrightly and officially with the Republican Party. Now they will be just another faction of the splintered GOP, which is really what they were all along, but, it took awhile for them and the media to establish this, openly for all to see.

Posted by: David R. Remer at February 12, 2010 2:31 PM
Comment #295512

Re government size - it has increased not only with population but also with GDP, which has grown significantly faster than population. For the last forty or fifty years, Federal government spending has hovered around 20% of GDP. Obama has pushed it to something like 26%. This would be a big sea-change if it becomes a permanent jump.

Re the Tea Party – I don’t think Republicans would have had the courage to hold out and Democrats would have felt 100% free to override them had it not been for the outpouring of public opposition to deficits. The Tea Parties put the fear of the voters into the big government proponents and fellow travelers. I am grateful for that.

BTW – I was surprised by the power and passion at the Tea Parties. I think big spenders were even more surprised.

Re Tea Party as part of the Republican Party – the Tea Party is more popular than either the Republicans or Democrats as a party. They cannot be all Republicans because they are more numerous than Republicans. At least Democrats should HOPE they are not all Republicans.

And I have admit that from a strictly interest point of view, I have just loved watching Democrats get spanked with the tools they loved so much. The Democrats are upset because the passion of the people have turned against them. I read that Brown’s people also more effectively used the Internet. Once tools of politics are developed, both sides can use them.

Posted by: Christine at February 12, 2010 7:36 PM
Comment #295583

Notwithstanding the insults being heaped upon the Tea Party by Democrats it should be clear that the Republican Party’s big-whig muckety-mucks don’t like the movement either.

Make no mistake, boht parties are in the business of concentrating economic power in the hands of the few. They only disagree who the few should be.

The Tea Party movement is good because it gives a voice to the vertical axis of American politics both parties want desperately to silence. It is a “Republican” movement only in so far as Libertarians, generally, will opt to support a party that centralizes power in private hands before they will opt to support a party that centralizes power in government hands.

When such people see the centralization of power itself as a threat to both libery and country, though, they will go out of their way to beheard.

If the whole power structure remains insensitive to this fact there will be a third party and one of the existing parties, probably the Republican Party, will die.

Posted by: Lee Jamison at February 14, 2010 12:47 PM
Comment #295591

Christine false said: “For the last forty or fifty years, Federal government spending has hovered around 20% of GDP. Obama has pushed it to something like 26%.”

Absolutely FALSE! GW Bush and the Republicans and Democrats in the Congress during Bush’s rein of economic terror, have pushed the spending to 26%. Obama inherited the Bush years’ near doubling of the national debt, expansion of the Medicare Rx drug plan all on deficit spending, an Iraq war that never was justified, and an economy that reduced government revenues by trillions when all is done and accounted for. It was Republicans who initiated the TOO BIG TO FAIL banking debacle with the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act, which conservative Democrats and Republicans passed in the Congress and Pres. Bill Clinton idiotically signed into law.

Your comment is patently a lie, or subscription to the GOP pack of lies and sophistry in the attempt to distance themselves from the responsibility for their own actions. I continue to be amazed by people who subscribe to falsities like this and expect others to believe them when offering advice on how the future should be managed. If one’s understanding of history is in error, one’s future designs will be a disaster.

The worst thing America can do is put Republicans back in charge. Republicans actually BELIEVE their own lies after they tell them. And that makes them not only nuts, but, very dangerous with the reins of power. There are countless examples of individuals grasping power to act out their delusions and lies which they came to hold as the truth, like Timothy McVeigh, the Uni-bomber, and Adolph Hitler. The power of destructive forces like explosives combined with delusions, or the power of government with the capacity to believe one’s own lies to the people, are the most dangerous marriages ever created in history.

Beware of politicians lacking integrity in speech and rhetoric. It alludes to a capacity to believe in their own contradictions, and act upon those.

Posted by: David R. Remer at February 14, 2010 2:39 PM
Comment #295592

Lee said: “Notwithstanding the insults being heaped upon the Tea Party by Democrats it should be clear that the Republican Party’s big-whig muckety-mucks don’t like the movement either.”

Really? Dick Armey is not a big-whig-muckety-muck? Sarah Palin is not a big-whig-muckety-muck? Rand Paul, (son of Ron Paul running for Senate heaped praise in a press conference at the Kentucky Republican Party headquarters in Louisville upon the “tea party” movement and said that “career politicians” had sold taxpayers “down the river.” Is Rand Paul not an up and coming big-whig muckety-muck? RNC Chair Steele goes out of his way to praise the Tea Party; is he not a big-whig-muckety-muck? How about Tom Tancredo singing and speaking the praises of the Tea Party to the Tea Partyers in their Tenn. convention? Is he not a big-whig-muckety-muck?

Lee said: “Make no mistake, boht parties are in the business of concentrating economic power in the hands of the few. They only disagree who the few should be.”

False! They also disagree on myriad other issues like PayGo, rescuing the economy, health care for access for all, and jobs as opposed to just letting those hit by the Great Recession flounder as their just deserts in the name of laissez faire self-correcting economics.

They disagree on matters of great import to the American people. Not just who should be entrusted power.

Posted by: David R. Remer at February 14, 2010 2:54 PM
Comment #295629

I’ve thought more about the axes on the triangle. While the political realities I tried to express with my labels are well enough as presented something more fundamental at the base of those realities became apparent to me. The lower axis represents not only personal freedom but also personal initiative. The right hand axis represents not only corporate centralization of economic power but also an incentive-based prod to action. The left axis is not merely centralized but impractical power, but also coercion to action- a force-based involuntary economic power.

I’ll have to answer some of Remer’s challenges later.

Posted by: Lee Jamison at February 15, 2010 1:31 AM
Comment #295632


David, there were 8 votes in the Senate against GLB, most of the Democrats that voted for GLB call themselves liberals and some of those consider themselves progressives.

I agree that Republicans believe and promulgate a big lie.

Their version of capitalism, caveat emptor, laissez faire capitalism is capitalism’s greatest enemy. It’s excesses and deficiencies have created a demand for the ism’s that they love to hate. They create their own enemys.

I still believe that the Democrats are the biggest problem. They bought into that brand of capitalism and now that our economy has gone south, they say they made a mistake and they want to backtrack a little bit.

The Democrats got a lot of incumbent dollars, which may or may not help them out, for their participation.

I think this is what the corporations are saying:

No more Teddy Roosevelts, we bought you and your going to stay bought this time. They and the Republicans may have the money and the media to make it stick.

I think the Republicans may lose with the strategy they are using but, the corporations win no matter which party controls the government.

Posted by: jlw at February 15, 2010 2:39 AM
Comment #295657

Has even a single Democrat or independent response to this article been on point, or is having an open philosophical discussion conceding too much?

Posted by: Lee Jamison at February 15, 2010 2:03 PM
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