Republicans & Conservatives Archives

C & J,
We’re already down the drain. The economy is a dead man walking, and no one wants to face the implications. The overhang of real estate foreclosures will keep that market depressed through 2010 and beyond. Credit remains incredibly tight because banks know just how bad the situation really is. Job creation and economic growth will push us back into plus territory, but it will only be temporary. The underlying issues have not been addressed, and the ecoomic stimulus has not been big enough. We’re about to enter what is known as a double-dip recession, and in retrospect, we will all realize it would have been more honest to call the period of the past decade and the coming decade an economic depression. Yes, it’s that bad. And yes, it’s going to last a long time.

Unemployment numbers are already climbing towards Great Depression numbers (esp U3). It will get even worse.

We are already playing a shell game with the enormous national debt. We took a shot at fixing the situation by spending a great deal of borrowed money, and we failed. Foreign governments are no longer interested in playing this shell game, and we are now essentially funding our debt by buying our own debt with… debt. Good luck with that!

Who is at fault? Conservatives and the GOP caused the problem. Democrats were elected in overwhelming numbers to fix the problem. Conservatives and the GOP did everything in their power to prevent problems from being solved. Democrats ignored the liberal wing, and failed to solve the problems. So… blame Obama, or blame the Democrats, or blame the conservatives and the GOP. It doesn’t particularly matter, because the results are a foregone conclusion.

First, government will shrink. We will be subjected to IMF style restrictions in order for foreign governments to keep our economy afloat. It will be a conservative dream. No more social security. Retirement will be handed over to Wall Street, just like conservatives always wanted. And forget universal health care.

The EU will leave us further and further behind. Their economies will slowly grow, even as their populations enjoy six weeks of vacation a year, universal health care, and the other benefits of socialism. We will pretend not to notice.

The middle class is being utterly destroyed. The assets of the lower and middle classes are being re-allocated back to the richest 1% of the country. Corporations are being given more and more power. The only possible counterbalance, the federal government, is being gutted in the name of privatization and deregulation. Too bad for 99% of Americans, but congratulations corporations and to the rich!!! About time! Those poor people were getting all the breaks.

Some people will see America as going down the toilet. However, these are people from the middle and lower classes. They were already circling the drain. The great thing about being wealthy is that there will be no need to be concerned about going down the toilet. That only happens to poor and middle class people. They deserved it anyway.

Welcome to Dickensian America. We’re almost there. Welcome to the conservative dream.

phx8
The blame goes back a hundred years. With the form of government we have and the Constitution, it has been a difficult process for the globalists to achieve their one world government; but they just keep plodding along just inching out win after win on the road to their own utopia.
The founding fathers had in mind a small central government. That is why they enumerated the powers of the central government and with the 10th amendment stated that the states should be sovereign and retain all other powers. The leadership, if we can be so free to use that word, has been remissive in their duty to preserve the rights of the sovereign states. That means the Governors, state legislatures, and most certainly all three branches of the central government. Until the states get enough spine to declare the rightful sovereignty thing will remain pretty much the same ole same ole, only get worse.

Phx8

I am more optimistic than you are. Even in this “terrible recession” I notice that people have cars, nice houses etc. It is not as bad as it was in 1982 in terms of unemployment. The biggest problem is that the deficit is large and growing, but that can be managed if we try.

Re the EU - The EU? Even in good times their growth rates are low. Usually people use China or India when they want to talk about being left behind, which is plausible. Unemployment in Germany and France usually (in normal or good times) is not much lower than the “high” unemployment we suffer now. If you want to be pessimistic, at least choose a place that might actually grow faster.

C&J
You are making the typical mistake in your assumptions regarding the EU. They keep track of unemployment differently,for one thing. Another mistake is looking at the divergence of GDP growth between the US and EU and not taking into account the more rapidly increasing population of the US.The per capita GDP between the two is nearly equal.You are looking through partisan glasses,I am afraid. You are not alone. Its a common affliction.

http://www.tnr.com/blog/jonathan-chait/conservative-accidentally-makes-the-case-social-democracy

I might also point out that in the EU,losing ones job does not mean losing ones medical access.I might also point out that until this year,Germany, a social democracy,was the largest exporter in the world. China has slightly surpassed that for now.

C&J
“He can start acting like President of all Americans and govern from the middle…”

The BHO administration worked with congress to craft a very middle of the road HC reform.The proposal is not all that different than the HC plan put into effect by Mitt Rohmney,whom I recall J supported at one time. He wound up alienating a good deal of the left doing so. The plan was still met with lies,distortions and fear mongering.Any change,any attempt to fix the problems facing the country,will clearly be met by the same responses.
I am curious to see just how the Rep leadership opposes the financial reforms and bank tightenning comming up. Even they might have trouble sweeping the recent disaster under the rug.
There was a period of American history that conservatives like to deny almost completly. That would be after WW2 until the 80s. The banks were heavily regulated. The upper brackets were at 70-90% for most of the period. Union penetration of the labor force was at all time highs. The predominant economic theory effecting fiscal and monetary policy were Keynesean. This period saw a doubling of the American standard of living in one generation. Sure,everything was not rosey. There were ups and downs. Jim Crow laws were still in effect for much of it. We started the very bad habit of entering elective expeditionary wars etc. But still the underlying economic conditions were remarkable.
Point is that the Chicago school has fallen. The point is that the Laffer Curve has been shown conclusivly to be in error. The point is Reaganomics is the VooDoo HWB said it was. The point is that de-regulation is most often just another way of saying rip off. Its over. If you really want to tackle the deficit then of course spending needs to be addressed but so does the revenue side. The marginal rates should go back to 1950 levels. Inheritance taxes on large estates should go back to 1950 levels. Military procurment needs to be overhauled. Soaring medical cost need to be controlled.That IS middle of the road.

Nice to hear its the same J. We had some good talks on occassion.

C&J wrote: “58% of Americans favor a smaller government with fewer services;”

BOGUS POLL! Every American is the recipient of some government services. Ask each of those polled, if they want the services THEY receive, cut! Answer will be nearly uninversally, NO!!!! Not just No. But, Hell NO!

Since when do Republicans advocate direct democracy where policy is established by public polling?

The hypocrisy is over the top.

And enthusiasm for Republicans is an example of polling illiteracy. Democrats and Obama are favored by the public over Republicans in this, and every other poll conducted with any kind of sampling rigor.

There’s not an economist on the planet that can tell you with a straight face that a recession is a good time to cut spending. But, whatever, I’m glad you’re happy. And why shouldn’t you be? The health care reform bill, which was weakened to the point of mirroring McCain and Romney’s proposals exactly is probably dead on arrival while McCain’s spending freeze is being made the centerpiece of Obama’s platform. Maybe if you bitch a little more Obama will make those tax cuts permanent and this country can finally vanish from the face of the earth.

Congrats! Idiocy wins! Hooray!

Tom,
The Jeffersonian vision of an agricultural economy populated by gentlemen farmers is long gone. The same can be said of for the states rights vision, with a small federal government riding herd over a group of strong states.

Population growth and technological developments make the Jeffersonian and states rights visions impractical and inefficient. But does that make them wrong?

In sociological terms, the freest, most democratic social structure is the tribe of 30 people or less. However, the combination of populations growth, technology, (and geography) have led to larger and larger governmental structures, from tribes to villages to city-states to nations. In general, the larger social structures take over the smaller ones. It can’t be helped.

A lot of us are fascinated by the idea of pulling a Huck Finn and “lighting out for the territories” or ‘going native.’ I think that is part of the conservative/libertarian mindset, and I think it is an attractive part. Unfortunately, it is one very few of us choose. Most of us vote with our feet to stay and participate in groups, often larger and larger groups, even at the risk of our personal freedom, because it provides so many synergistic benefits.

And who knows? If technology keeps developing, I can see a time when cell phones and wireless technologies may bring us back full circle, to a kind of freedom most of us have forgotten.

Christine, Which middle would that be? The one whose policies crippled this country for decades to come, or the one that wishes to move away from them? It does not take a genius to recognize that your party still has nothing of substance to offer with regard to the problems at hand. You speak of center as though that is where the GOP has always been. If that is what you truly believe then I would suggest you re-examine your definition of the term. Phx 8 is right on in his analogy of the current situation. Recovery will be long, hard and painful. The wealthy will be the big winners at the expense of those they so willingly trod on with the assistance of our previously conservative controlled government. The problem with such extreme partisanship is it does not allow one to see clearly.

“Democrats ignored the liberal wing, and failed to solve the problems.” phx8

Suggesting that Pelosi and Reid are moderate really gives me a laugh. If they’re not liberals, please give me your definition.

I sense a lot of depression and wringing of hands by some in the posts above. Reading some of these comments would lead one to believe that America is finished.

Throughout our history there have been those who see calamity when their political wishes are not followed. The political pendulum swings left and right and in recent years it has swung further left than at anytime in my memory. That swing has emboldened the liberals and given them the false belief that the battle between left and right was over forever. Not true.

Now, liberals sense that the vast middle ground of American’s electorate is unhappy with the liberal agenda having seen what it looks like in full bloom. And, American’s are showing their anger at the polls.

The November congressional elections will see many incumbents names missing from the ballot. Democrats and Republicans are already looking for and grooming new fresh faces with a moderate campaign message. This is good for America and her people. There is no need or public demand for a new third party. The new party is already in existence and is comprised of independent voters. These voters will select the men and women running on the party tickets and the parties will reflect this in their party platforms.

I believe that Republican and Democrat candidates who emerge from the primary process will be similar in their campaign message except for a few entrenched seats.

The new congress will be much more in tune with the majority of American’s and it will be their mandate to reduce the size of government and government’s debt. There will be sacrifice forced upon most American’s and they will accept it as the only path left to avoid even more pain.

Our American history is one which is replete with examples of success when we work together to solve problems and to save our collective butts.

I have great confidence in the common sense of American’s. I believe we can emerge from this time of peril a great people and even greater country.

Many forget that we did not become a great people and great country by following others…but by leading the world. It is to America that the world looks for leadership and we will oblige.

I think the most succinct and the best comment on what the Republicans want is that the only policy they truly favor is for the govenrment to do nothing when the people ask it to do something.

That is their vision of efficiency.

As for everything else? The Republicans filled posts with cronies, practiced far less oversight with Bush than the Democrats have with Obama, allowed deficits to spin out of control, and failed to match tax rates to spending rates.

The truth of the matter is, government is more than self-indulgent expression of your political principles or expectations. We must all look at results. Republicans have gotten Americans to think that the stimulus was a waste of money. Too bad that isn’t true. Too bad most economist people talk to, even at the conservative AEI will say that the stimulus plan provided growth, and preserved jobs.

Because what’s really important is what we can BS people into believe, not what’s right.

Isn’t that so? Republicans celebrate putting America in tough spots, and not getting us out, rather, BSing us into believing that we ought to be where we are, or that the liberals are to blame for it.

America’s not meant to be a party’s playground. Tell me, John and Christine, what positive accomplishment your party’s actually had lately.

Stephen

Most of the big achievements such as welfare reform, budget balancing & protecting our country from terrorism have been bipartisan. That is the point.We are coming back toward center from a leftward lurch. That is why I feel more confident today than I did last year.

I know you want to talk about Republican failings, but let’s go the other way. Democrats have controlled both houses of Congress since 2007. What have they done for us lately?

Re government – I believe you are mistaking me for your caricature of a conservative. Like most Americans, I do not want NO government. Let me quote what I wrote in the original posting:

“The government we need today is smart, lean, small, efficient and minimally intrusive. It protects us from foreign threats, takes care of the big infrastructure but otherwise leaves us alone within the rule of law. It recognizes that the American nation is greater than the American government and that most Americans want their government to be supportive but not to provide all the support, to help the people achieve their goals w/o directing outcomes.”

I would add that a big part of what government does is manage the money supply. I think the Fed did a good job over the last year and a half. Despite the criticism he has gotten on both left and right, I think Bernake saved us from further fall.

Bills

C&J lived in Europe for more than a dozen years and go back there frequently. We love Europe (even France). There are a variety of European models, most pleasant, but they do not easily translate into the U.S. I don’t think it is completely accurate to talk about one Euro model, but let me make some generalizations.

Europe is pleasant because of its particular recent history. It depended and continues to depend on the U.S. security umbrella. We can talk about whether or not the U.S. SHOULD do that, but the fact is that if we stopped, Europe would have to pay more and get less security. In addition, they ride free on many of our medical innovations, since firms recoup their R&D expenses in the U.S. market and then the Europeans can negotiate better deals. Again, I am not saying that this SHOULD continue. I think it should not. But some of the things you may like about Europe enjoy a de-facto subsidy from the U.S.

The Europeans themselves recognize their problem with slow growth and relatively weak innovation. If you want to look at a case study of how not to do things, take a look at Spanish and German subsidies of solar energy. Some people advocate the U.S. doing similar things. Their experience is not encouraging. The fact that cloudy German has a lot of solar installed is not really a sign of progress.

I could go on, but I prefer not to, since I see I am looking negative on the EU and I generally think the EU is a good thing, just not a good thing for the U.S. to copy in any large extent. The EU was a great step forward (fostered BTW by U.S. policy)

Re the Laffer curve – even Keynesians recognize that increasing tax rates will not increase tax revenue in the same proportions (i.e. 5% increase in tax rates will yield 5% - x amount of revenue and a 5% cut in taxes will not yield -5% + x) It is hard to calculate that x but there is a point where increased taxes will indeed lead to lower revenues. The argument is about where that point sits.

David

Fewer doesn’t mean none. Most Americans don’t want government expansion. I mentioned the type of government I would prefer. It provides many services, but they are the ones the people couldn’t do themselves or could do only with significant hardship.

Re polling – this is a Washington Post sponsored poll. The WP is known to be middle of the road, but slightly more in the left lane. I don’t think you want to shoot the messenger in this case.

Christine
DR does have a point about the poll you mentioned. If you asked whether or not Americans wanted the specific government service that THEY recieve,they response would be very different. An example we often hear goes along the lines of,”The damned government better not mess with my Social Security!”

RE: Much of the inovation R&D the medical establishment comes up with comes directly from government research labs and grants,etc.They are cutting a fat hog.
The EU also has brilliant doctors.I like the French set up. Medical school is free but the competition to get into it is fierce and graduates WILL work within state payment guidlines.
With the lessening of the Cold War and a generally united Europe the defense expenditures of Europe should decrease a lot quicker than they are for the US .IMO
I am gratified you realize the tremendous burden on our economy placed by the MIC.
Burnake did indeed save us from a furthur fall when he finally opened his eyes and moved toward a Keynesian approach,rejecting supply side ,Friedman theories. His strength is that he is a skilled economic reasercher. To be one,it is necessary to allow fact to intrude on dogma.

Bills

Yes, we all have services that we want to keep and everybody would want more free stuff from the government. But most of us can also recognize that this has to be limited. It is a human failing to want more from others and a virtue to realize that we shouldn’t take too much. We need to keep each others’ appetites in check if we don’t do it ourselves.

I would also add that bribing us with our own money is one of the ways that governments have always increased their power at the expense of liberty.

Rhinhold talks about subsidies in the center column. I understand the temptation of that. When the government is passing around the cash, you feel like a chump for not bellying up to the trough. But government largess comes with strings. If nothing else, you forget how to take care of your affairs.

To steal a phrase, it is the road to serfdom.

Re Euro defense - they are semi-free riders and have been since 1949. Only the British & French can even autonomously deploy significant force at all. Generations of American leaders have tried to figure out how to get our European cousins to pull more of their own weight to little avail. You have probably read the extended essay “Of Paradise and Power” by Robert Kagan. If not, I recommend it. It is a simplified picture, but broadly correct.

We Americans played that same game with the Brits thought most of the 19th Century, i.e. had a military hardly big enough to defend our vast territory, hide behind the power of the Royal Navy and bitched about the Brits.

Christine
There is a place for subsidies. Milk price supports,for example. There is no place for the many oil company subsidies or other well capitalized industries. You Know,like promoting hamburgers for Mac Donalds in Slobovia. Should the Bush assumption of liability for the nuclear power industry be considered a subsidy?Is the data from federally sponsered research given to drug companies a subsidy?
Would tax incentives for job creation be a subsidy? Maybe.But at this point in this economic situation job creation is highly important. There is a multiplying effect that usually pays for the subsidy and then some.
I wouldn’t be too awfully concerned about imminent serfdom. Some posters are still upset that they can’t get leaded gasoline anymore,damn gubmint.

Christine-
If all of the great achievements of your party are bipartisan, then why is your party’s current strategy to prevent any legislation that does not meet with their ideological approval?

Put plainly, it is not bipartisanship to demand that people take your view and solve things with your solutions every time.

It is also far from cooperative to offer no alternatives at once. With few exceptions, many of the filibusters in the past came to some kind of compromise, or having said their peace, were allowed to fall by the wayside. This tactic has never been used or depended upon by any party the way it has with the Republicans to see its political will done.

This, despite two elections in which people said they wanted something different.

Republicans are going about this like a man who thinks the torch he is holding in his hand burned his opponent because he was unworthy, and that if he puts the fire to his own skin, he won’t be harmed. But the Republicans are not only, generally speaking, as unpopular as their opponents, but they’re often more so.

The Republicans are going to get seriously burned by their failure to acknowledge the end of a political era for them. They may glory in the anxiety-driven polls for a while, but people are more complicated than that, and you’ll find people want many of the fixes that the Republican party says they cannot have, and in a way that they would never give them it.

The Republican Party’s dilemma is that it’s lack of compromise has levelled some of the playing field, but at the expense of forcing the Republicans to take positions that will keep them unable to fully please the public’s wishes. The Democrats are willing to do the things necessary to help Americans, even if the Republicans have made the language or some of the concepts surrounding them unpopular. The Republicans will have to say no to the American people at some point not long from now that will inspire a reaction against them. They will reap what they have sown this past year.

The Republicans should have let the Democrats take the tension out of the situation, should have let them fix the economy, because then, from there, they could moan and groan about socialism and everything with the memories of hard times behind them.

Now, though, they’re going to put themselves between the devil and the deep blue sea trying to blame miseries that can ultimately be traced back to them on the Democrats, and trying to claim that their blockade in the Senate is for the people’s good, when the people want positive action. Sooner or later, Democrats will take advantage of the Republican Obstruction, and use that to sicken people against the Republicans

Then the fire they’re playing with will burn them.

Christine is it because America was already in the toilet that it is now not going down the toilet? How quickly we forget the conservative goal of drowning the country in the bathtub. It seems to me that in this attempt to do deliberate harm to the government of the people the conservatives over the past 30 years have missed the bathtub in their pursuit of their goal and instead of hitting the bathtub have hit the toilet.

“My goal is to cut government in half in twenty-five years, to get it down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub.”
Grover Norquist

“Now, liberals sense that the vast middle ground of American’s electorate is unhappy with the liberal agenda having seen what it looks like in full bloom. And, American’s are showing their anger at the polls.”

Perhaps instead Royal the American people did not see the “liberal agenda in full bloom” but instead saw a party that was trying to pass a health care reform bill that did not do the job the American people wanted. It seems to me your claim is false and more agenda driven drivel than an accurate assessment of a “liberal agenda in full bloom”, after all how many liberals do you know that like the current health care reform bill?

“Our American history is one which is replete with examples of success when we work together to solve problems and to save our collective butts.”

I agree Royal. I can think of WWII as an example of success as you say but can you think of a few more when war was not involved? The problem today is the fact that we are divided and it shows in Congress. The obstructionist on the right side of the aisle seem to be in denial about their part in why the stimulus was needed, and why the country is in dire straits today. Unfunded wars and tax cuts are not fiscal responsibility but an attempt to drown the country in the bathtub.

“I have great confidence in the common sense of American’s. I believe we can emerge from this time of peril a great people and even greater country.”
We are emerging from a time of great peril but slowly. I to have confidence in the American people but a swing back to conservatism will make this decade a rerun of the ‘30’s.

“Many forget that we did not become a great people and great country by following others…but by leading the world. It is to America that the world looks for leadership and we will oblige.”

Many forget a lot of things Royal. When we don’t learn from our mistakes of the past 30 years we will just be floundering not leading. To listen to tea bags trying to reduce the deficit, an admirable goal IMHO, while trying to get out of the mini depression may cost us more in the long run. But as you say that will take leadership not just following the bad advice of the agenda driven.

At least 2 or 4 or more like the current HC bill on this blog anyway j2.

KAP some liberal dems live with it primarily for political purposes IMHO and not because it is what they wanted.

http://kucinich.house.gov/NEWS/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=153995

J2T2
Your right about living with it for political purposes. Dennis Kucinich is one liberal that listened to the people in his district because I did write him along with probably a lot of others
voicing our opposition to the HC in congress.

KAP he saw the problem and if constituents such as yourself were against the bill for the same reasons as Kucinich then perhaps there is hope for decent HI reform. Many on the right don’t see the problem with privatized insurance and are against the bill for well… political reasons.

When will this country wake up and see how much capitalism has injured its citizens? For the sake of a dollar we have sent all our jobs overseas and a few reap the rewards. We have taken away restrictions of regulation and now we have the derivatives game returning to Wall Street in this new bill of financial reform. We also have 30 years worth of oil coming from under the ocean if not stopped (so much for worrying about running out of oil).

Decisions made by mere men on both sides of the political aisle have brought us where we are now.

What will happen if the nations who lend us money decide to stop and if they call in their loans?

Why do we insist upon picking pepper out of bat guano in Afghanistan and Iraq? This is the perfect time to get out of there.

Stop all foreign aid and rebuild our own nation. Bring our troops home and seal off our borders.

America is not going down the toilet, at least not totally but its certainly not a shining star any more. I think the coming years will see that to be true, the world is becoming more multipolar, the other growing powers in the world are better able to compete with America more as equals rather than satellites. I would not count Europe out, they are changing from socialist to less so these days. Asia is getting bigger and bigger. In South America, Brazil is going to be huge. I think Americans will still have stuff but we will not be the envy of the world like before and we will have to work a lot harder for what we already have.
The American Dollar is getting killed on global markets, meaning our purchasing power is not what it used to be, I see more foreign tourists these days spending their money gleefully while the vice versa is becoming less common. There is also a lot of prosperity outside of America these days as well.