Health Care Bill Promotes Euthanasia?

Imagine a scenario in which, in your old age, you are required to make periodic visits to your doctor to discuss your “end of life” options, including hospice and palliative care, powers of attorney, and how to modify or terminate life-sustaining treatment. Moreover, if you have a serious or terminal illness, you are required to make these visits more frequently.

This probably sounds like a scene from George Orwell’s 1984, but it’s actually a provision from the health care bill (H.R. 3200). Section 1233, to be exact.

Is it any wonder that Rahm Emanuel was trying to get the House of Representative to vote on the health care bill this week: he and other top-ranking Democrats (including President Obama) wanted to ram the bill through before anyone knew what was in it.

Provisions like section 1233 would make George Washington throw up in his grave. It effectively mandates physician consultations with the elderly that will educate them on how to die with dignity.

On page 425 of the bill, it requires an "advance care planning consultation" for the elderly if a similar consultation has not been conducted within the past five years. This consultation concerns "the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice." It also focuses on "orders regarding life-sustaining treatment or similar orders."

It also states, on page 428, that this consultation "may be conducted more frequently . . . if there is a significant change in the health condition of the individual," and then proceeds to list various general descriptions of terminal illnesses and conditions.

Section 1233 is a slick way of mandating consultations that educate the elderly on how to die with dignity. In other words, euthanasia.

That is not a far-fetched interpretation of the bill. Recall that it mandates these consultations and focuses on "end-of-life services," including "orders regarding life-sustaining treatment." One of my liberal friends emphasized that this language specifies "life-sustaining treatment" and not terms like "euthanasia." But the complete phrase describes "orders regarding life-sustaining treatment."

When someone goes into cardiac arrest at a hospital or falls into a coma, a doctor's natural and legal inclination is to "sustain" that person's life. That effort continues until a person properly designated pursuant to a will or a will itself orders the doctor or doctors to cut off life-sustaining treatment. These "orders" modify or terminate the treatment that is given, and they represent what section 1233's language refers to: "orders regarding life-sustaining treatment" or orders that modify or terminate the life-sustaining treatment given to someone who is terminally ill.

There may be nothing wrong with such orders. But there is something sickeningly wrong when the federal government mandates consultations that educate the elderly regarding such orders. Why do liberals feel the need to exert control over someone's end-of-life planning? What is behind this?

The answer is simple. This health care bill has nothing to do with helping the uninsured. Such compassionate motives do not appear to exist when you actually read this bill. And I don't think they ever existed at all. This bill is about control. And it makes perfect sense. Any health care plan that dumps 100+ million people into a government-run, public option and that does not add a corresponding number of doctors into the mix inevitably has to ration out care. Such a system must eliminate waste, and the most "waste" in the system results from the elderly, who account for most of the costs via their frequent checkups, tests, surgeries, and multiple life-sustaining devices (e.g., pacemakers, oxygen tanks, etc.).

Given the costs incurred by the elderly, I am not surprised that provisions like section 1233 were included in this bill. It helps the government eliminate much of the "waste" in the system and attempt to bridge the gap between what this bill would cost and the revenue the government currently has.

One of the ways to bridge that gap is to place the elderly on a "fast track" of sorts when their days become numbered. It is a perverted role for the government to assume, and it illustrates how important it is for Americans to understand what is in this bill and why it must be defeated.

Posted by Robert M. Fojo at July 28, 2009 10:56 AM
Comments
Comment #285172

Have you checked into a hospital recently? One of the first things they will ask you is whether you have a health care directive or a living will. If you say no, they will ask you if you would be willing to complete one.

Health care directives and living wills are intended to provide clear evidence of a person’s desires regarding extraordinary medical procedures in cases of a terminal illness and the person is no longer able to communicate their wishes. They protect the desires of the patient and interests of the medical staff in terminal cases. Nothing sinister about the issue. It avoids the Terry Schiavo case for the parties involved.

Certainly, there may be a cost savings for terminating extraordinary life sustaining services for some terminally ill. But that consequence is not the single and most important factor.

Equating health care directive consultations for the elderly with euthanasia planning is absurd. It is simple common sense to make a special effort to have those most likely to have need of such directives completed, updated and available.


Posted by: Rich at July 28, 2009 12:05 PM
Comment #285184

I’m appalled at such intrepretation. Absolutely freaking amazing.

Posted by: womanmarine at July 28, 2009 12:33 PM
Comment #285185

Since when is dying with dignity equal to euthanasia? Giving the patient information about what is available, and what their options are is nothing about euthanasia. I just went through this recently with my father. What your article suggests borders on the absurd.

Posted by: womanmarine at July 28, 2009 12:36 PM
Comment #285186

There’s a considerable difference between orders that a patient might have on record concerning the continuation of life support and resuscitation, and the forced termination of life in order to end pain and suffering.

It’s a fairly liberal interpretation of the legal language in question.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the law mandating that people be allowed to determine the course of their medical treatment, at the point where they no longer have a voice in matters otherwise.

This is the political game being played with people’s lives. It’s interesting that the Republicans seem so aghast at the intrusion of the federal government into medical decisions, but were all too willing to not only let, but compel that intervention in the Terri Schiavo case.

This seems to be more a matter of making sure that the medical decisions the federal government is making are the ones the Republicans want them making. Democrats aren’t opening the door to Kevorkian here, they’re making it easier for people to file forms ensuring that, unlike Terri Schiavo, their wishes for what happens in case of coma or cardiac arrest are clear.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at July 28, 2009 1:06 PM
Comment #285187

This has to be some of the most extreme and disgusting scare tactics I have seen. There oughta be a law.

Posted by: womanmarine at July 28, 2009 1:13 PM
Comment #285188

Okay, I read further. Killing old people? Give me a break. What happens when somebody does an unnecessary hip replacement, or spinal surgery? What happens when somebody drugs them up to their eyeballs, and forgets that there are interactions between some of the drugs they’re taking?

What happens when that old person sits at home suffering in silence with chronic conditions, or doesn’t even realize they have a problem until it’s too late and the treatment’s so much more expensive?

The point of our reforms is not to ration out care, but to encourage the system to move towards preventative care and early detection, two practices that are empirically proven to lower healthcare costs and improve results.

With my family’s older generation getting progressively more elderly, and suffering serious problems with backs, legs, nerves, brains, and hearts, I’ve been a personal witness to some of the BS the healthcare industry inflicts on people, and to the serious, crippling costs of the treatments they put forward.

They system doesn’t work. It’s not saving money. It’s not avoiding bureaucracy, not giving people their choice of doctors, better choice of treatment. It’s failing America, and the Republicans are defending it, at best, for ideological reasons. At worst, they are simply doing what they’ve done for way too many industries: defending their interests at the expense of the Public’s, because after all, the rest of us are too stupid to be given the help from the government we ask for. Better to let the special interest do what’s best for us in their view, right?

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at July 28, 2009 1:15 PM
Comment #285191

**sigh**

http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/euthanasia.asp

Posted by: Donna at July 28, 2009 1:51 PM
Comment #285194

Ugh. If we’re seeing this kind of article today, what else is coming down the line? How much worse is this going to get?

Posted by: phx8 at July 28, 2009 2:11 PM
Comment #285208

Robert,
Nice try, but you need to go beck to the 60’s and 70’s if you care to use the idea to scare people. For back than people was talking about eliminating anyone over the age of 30 that got ill. In fact, why not a movie buff I do recall a few moives that took and ran with that theme.

No, having doctors explain to people what the risks are even in getting your tooth pulled or a shot is not only wise, but prudent. For as history has shown us your family members will do what they want and not is your wishes unless you make it perfectly clear to your doctor (in writing) if the worse happens.

For why the medical staff can keep your body fucntioning for years and the future even holds better solutions so you family can come visit you even when you are 500 years old. Most Americans realize that a natural death is better than a drug induced mechanical life.

Because given the odds of 50/50 or better something can be done to restore you to a productive life may have a different thought than the odds that give you a one in a million chance of survival. Nevertheless, it should be up to the Individual and not a bunch of Government Idiots, Doctors, or Family Members to decide the course of action. Wouldn’t you agree being a Republican?

Posted by: Henry Schlatman at July 28, 2009 3:07 PM
Comment #285215
In fact, why not a movie buff I do recall a few moives that took and ran with that theme.

Logan’s Run!

Posted by: rhinehold at July 28, 2009 3:27 PM
Comment #285219

Only runners want the Health Care Bill.

Runner!

The euthanasia rumor resembles the ‘birther’ stories spread among the Republican base. Republican Senator Voinovich complained about the increasingly shrinking size of the base, and how the GOP is becoming a regional party. I would add that not only is it becoming regional, but it is so unhinged by Obama (Glenn Beck just called Obama a “racist”) that nothing is left but a crackpot constituency.

Posted by: phx8 at July 28, 2009 4:26 PM
Comment #285220

Many of these comments seem to declare the article a “scare tactic” without even bothering to engage the substance of the article.

The point is that the term “end of life services” in section 1233 can encompass the practice of euthanasia. Moreover, given the provision’s emphasis on providing all this information to the elderly, including information about how and why to have an order in place to deal with life-sustaining treatment, and the government’s inevitable problem of rationing out care, it is certainly plausible the language contemplates euthanasia or some form of it as one of many options.

A doctor explaining these options and other services to a patient is prudent, but the federal government has no role in mandating that. So, Henry, you make the same valid point I made in the article. This is an individual decision, not a government decision.

I also like the Logan’s Run reference. It seems that’s where this bill is heading. Hopefully, (and it sure looks like it), it will be defeated.

Posted by: Robert at July 28, 2009 4:29 PM
Comment #285222

Robert:

Did you not read the Snopes article? It is additional coverage for Medicare patients, something they didn’t have before.

What end of life care decisions would you equate to euthanasia? I’m very curious. As I said before, I just went through this with my father, and it was up to him to make these decisions. As it should be. It was also up to the doctor to explain to him all that was available to him when the time to make that decision approached. How the hell does any of that equate to euthanasia?

It is and always will be a scare tactic, especially as written above.

Posted by: womanmarine at July 28, 2009 4:56 PM
Comment #285223

Robert,

BullCrap. The options you cite have been available to the wealthy in this country for decades. These provisions close the wealth gap on being able to determine for oneself, one’s end of life conditions and strategy.

Your position appears to seek retention for these options only amongst the wealthy. While in keeping with Republican philosophy, I do not believe the majority of Americans would agree with it.

Thank you though, for helping readers here to clarify this issue on the proposed legislation. It is an important topic for discussion, and you are to be commended for bringing the topic to the fore for all to see and understand for themselves.

Posted by: David R. Remer at July 28, 2009 5:02 PM
Comment #285226

Robert-

Many of these comments seem to declare the article a “scare tactic” without even bothering to engage the substance of the article.

The substance of the article is the attempt to tie counselling about options concerning placement on life support, resuscitation and other issues of that kind to the homicide (wanted or unwanted) of patients who are disabled or dying to put them out of their misery.

There is a difference between informing people of their rights concerning refusal of treatment in critical care situations, and euthanasia. There is a difference between assisted suicide, and committed murder upon a patient, and the right to let the end be the end, when nature is merely taking its course.

That is a difference of substance, and that is a matter that this article ignores.

Worse yet, the author then goes on to imply that the way we’re cutting healthcare costs would essentially be the old folks on the ice floe method.

Lastly, let me make a point about healthcare reform. Last time, you folks were fairly successful in advocating for the free market approach. Now, things are worse, and people’s patience is frayed. Right now, you can barely get people scared of socialism; at best they’re cautious about it. Wait till later, and you’ll see people far more radicalized by the dysfunction of the system.

You’ve got a couple choices: fix things now, or accept a worse alternative later.

You’re going to end up forcing a reckoning with the rest of America you’d be better advise to put off or prevent as long as you can.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at July 28, 2009 8:09 PM
Comment #285231

This provision, as written, does NOT make the state final arbitor of when grandma’s had enough.
This provision, as written, does NOT even mandate this consultation.
What it does do is keep grandma from having to pay for it out of pocket, if she desires to make those decisions with her doctor.

Many people do not make their end of life care requests known to their loved ones or doctors before a crisis, leaving families or even total strangers to “figure it out” while someone is being placed on respirators and feeding tubes.
There was a time when conservatives espoused vision and hope. Even then if I did not agree with them, I could respect their views.
That sadly has ended and fear and loathing are all you have left to sell.

Posted by: Ted at July 28, 2009 9:52 PM
Comment #285238

Robert,

I am a conservative, registered Republican, and I have to say that this article is indicative of what is wrong with our party. We can do better than this kind of underhanded, twisted reading of language to make points. There are legitimate points to be made about government madates (though in truth, I think that even those would be weak here). However, instead you went straight to a hysterical reading that says the government is going to start killing the elderly to save money. Outrageous, dishonest. You deserve the responses you are hearing here.

Posted by: Rob at July 29, 2009 1:06 AM
Comment #285241

Rhinehold,
Thanks! Because why I have watched Logans Run, the other two I was thinking of was purely si-fi.

Robert,
Having been put under the knife several times I make it a point now every time I recieve medical treatment to tell the doctor my wishes. However, why I am not the norm I do believe more people need to know what the worse case senrio is anytime they enter into a medical facility. For are you aware that just walking into the doctors office or hospital may put your life at risk? Yet, are you willing to stop getting medical treatment based on the results of a few studies.

So please learn the difference between what can happen, unwanted side effects, and all the other things that can go wrong any and every time medical assistance is given. For why I am glad the Democratic and Republican Leadership don’t want to draw the line at a Productive Life, ask yourself who makes the money if you live to be 500 years old in a coma.

Posted by: Henry Schlatman at July 29, 2009 3:06 AM
Comment #285243

I just have to say that I am appalled by the situation Republicans are constantly put in by their leaders. How many half-truths and outright lies like this have Republicans in the rank and file had pushed on them?

The focus of the Republican Party is on little else than defeating Democrats, and blocking their policies. So some feel justified not only in peddling this problematic, false information, they feel justified in leading people to believe that there is no trusting the mainstream media that might debunk it.

This is not unconnected to the failures of the GOP in this decade. As the individuals in America’s population who support the party become more isolated from the rest of the culture, at least in terms of their politics, their leaders become more isolated from accountability, and the pressures to maintain competence and strength of character. After all, if anything goes wrong, if they don’t get a policy right, if they behave out of alignment with their party’s interests, they can just push people’s button, and blunt any impact.

Republicans are facing too many problems for this invulnerability to outside influence. Their leaders have helped create, and have proceeded to abuse this distrust of outside sources. This current piece of mythology is one more example.

If somebody is feeding you inaccurate information like this, knowing that its untrue, they are likely trying to manipulate you. And if they’re doing so, they are not trusting you to reason out things, to act in your party’s interests, without such manipulation. Nobody, Democrat, Republican, or Independent, needs to be treated like that.

Republicans need to engage their party with skeptical inquiry, and independent, critical thought. So do Democrats. And the politics we debate here, we should be debating first and foremost on solid factual grounds, rather than based on talking point which are more intended to inflame and manipulate than inform and hold to account.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at July 29, 2009 7:48 AM
Comment #285244

As long as our society will tolerate nothing less than full application of medical resources to extend the life of all the elderly as much as technologically possible, discussion of health care savings is a waste of time. One of many reasons health care costs will be forever spiraling up.

Posted by: Schwamp at July 29, 2009 8:38 AM
Comment #285250

Schwamp, you just stepped into FORBIDDEN territory. Political parties and politicians do not want the discussion to go there. How dare you? :-)

(But, you are, Oh, so right.) There simply must be caps in place on end of life care, or a clear set of guidelines, based on actuary data, which limits life extending expenditures, if we are to bend the bankrupting Medicare/Medicaid (Univ. Health Ins.) debt curve from up to down, and save the economic future of nation.

One simple rule which perhaps a majority would agree upon is, that life extending expenditures for terminally ill patients, those who are going to die of their malady with reasonable certainty based on actuarial data, within the following 12 to 18 months, regardless of whether life extending measures are paid for, should be required to pay for that life extending cost through private or self-insurance, not public insurance.

That of course, would be one of the easiest provisions to convince voters to back. Every other measure I can think of to limit end of life care expenditures, is a political act of Sysiphus. (Like eternally pushing a rock up a mountain.)

Of course, I am not talking about limiting costs for pain and suffering management and mitigation. That is mandated by humane treatment of even our pets and animals of burden and agriculture.

But, its a real problem setting guides like, If the treatment would render the patient cured viable for normal lifestyle for an additional 2 years or more, the expense is warranted. Such guides will be very fluid, subject to annual revision, as technology improves, and therefore, a constant source of dissent and debate, as case after case tugs at the public’s heart strings when put before the public in special interest publicity and advertising.

Ultimately, this whole issue boils down to the equation of cost benefit analysis of keeping a patient alive. A 40 year old physicist conducting essential research for the military industrial complex would be worth far more in public cost to save than a 90 year old grandmother who hasn’t contributed anything to the economy other than as a just above poverty consumer for the last 30 years.

Such actuarial analysis, however inhumane it appears when promoted by those who would bankrupt the nation to save every soul, is inescapable in designing a public health care system. Which means, you nailed the fundamental nuclear zone of this issue in far fewer words than I could ever have. :-)

Posted by: David R. Remer at July 29, 2009 9:59 AM
Comment #285255

It’s called rationing and every health care system, including all private insurers, do it. At a certain point, it’s simply not feasible for a business or a government or anyone to pay to keep someone alive. This is common sense, so I don’t understand why this is an issue. Obviously, you’re health insurance doesn’t cover everything and if you needed certain kinds of treatment you either pay out of your own pocket or are out of luck.

Posted by: Max at July 29, 2009 11:38 AM
Comment #285257

Max-
It’s an issue because the Republicans want to hold up Government Health Insurance to impossible standards so that Private Health Coverage, no matter how awful, always looks good by comparison.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at July 29, 2009 2:18 PM
Comment #285265

S.D.
Last I heard it was the blue dog DEMOCRATS holding things up. It’s a sad thing when your own party can’t get together on a bill and you have to blame the other party for it.

Posted by: KAP at July 29, 2009 4:14 PM
Comment #285277

KAP-
Do you seriously want me to believe that the Republicans are just passive spectators?

And for your information, the blue dogs are Conservative Democrats, which mean they’re at least somewhat following the GOP’s lead.

Believe me, they’re getting their share of the blame. In the Left Blogosphere, the name is not spoken complementarily.

That said, if the Republicans were even willing to budget an inch on these matters, those folks would be irrelevant. It’s only the near absolute obstruction of the Republicans that makes it easy for Blue Dogs to act like they’re moderates.

And we’re not quite as bad on that getting Democrats together thing as you might want to think.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at July 29, 2009 7:54 PM
Comment #285281
Do you seriously want me to believe that the Republicans are just passive spectators?

Passive? No. Spectators? Yup. Because they have no power atm. Any failure to pass anything at this point is 100% on the shoulders of the Democrats, Stephen…

So, you might want to stop trying to blame Republicans, because just because the majority of Americans thought that the Republicans were in charge of congress last Novemember, they are pretty well aware that they aren’t now, and that isn’t going to work much anymore.

Posted by: Rhinehold at July 29, 2009 8:30 PM
Comment #285282

S.D.
I’m not stupid, I know they are conservative Democrats, Stephen, to me you are so fixed on the notion that Republicans are to blame for Democrats not being able to come together on this health bill. Don’t you think that there are some Democrats who do believe in going to their districts and question the people they represent instead of following Pelosi blindly. By the way how many Demodrats do you think read the bill? Did You? I didn’t. I heard the Republicans came up with a $700 billion bill of their own. Do you think it has a chance? I don’t.

Posted by: KAP at July 29, 2009 8:46 PM
Comment #285286

Want to know the truth? Check it out — right from the Web site that Dick Cheney recommended during one of the debates — http://factcheck.org/2009/07/false-euthanasia-claims/

The truth is that the health care proposal is no Logan’s Run.

Posted by: Mi Oh at July 29, 2009 10:40 PM
Comment #285287

KAP, I bet the Repubs bill is as good as their budget was. Representatives have a duty to their constituents first, and party second. That means you represent your people. If your people don’t want you to do anything fine. Do nothing. If your people want you to change something, it is your duty to try. Otherwise there is no point in them being there and might as well be taken to prison for embezzlement. If they don’t have enough votes to pass something then they don’t have enough, nothing wrong if they try. Simply means the people do not want that. We really need to get out of this idea of political parties first and the people second. Either that or political parties need to start kicking people out when they go against them.

This article spells what is wrong with what seems to be the controllers (if there is such a thing) of the republican party, a lack of common sense. Maybe even a lack of simple logic. I keep seeing arguments that lack simple facts, and only what ifs. It’s true that too much money gets dumped into end of life care, but where in the world did you get this from? I’m assuming Robert did not read the bill himself and came up with that. I give him more respect then that. I admit I read laws all the time and do what ifs, but I present them as what ifs not this is what they mean and how they feel about something. This is about as silly as when people were making death threats because a women aborted their baby when it had no brain. NO BRAIN! It makes you wonder who else didn’t have a brain. Luckily they went on to have some more average children that they loves and adored. Sorry for the tangent, I got done reading another article about how abortion should not be covered.

Posted by: kudos at July 29, 2009 11:19 PM
Comment #285290

Rhinehold,

It seems to me the Republicans are pretty passive. They vote as a block without any individual thought or care at all. If we do nothing about health care everyone pretty much agrees the costs will do this country great harm. And yet the Republicans do nothing. Have no plan. Refuse to take part in the conversation.

Posted by: Max at July 30, 2009 12:29 AM
Comment #285295

Rheinhold,

So, our Republican representatives and senators are nothing but spectators. They can just kick back, drink a few beers and watch. No responsibility, no duty to their country or constituents. Sad, but perhaps a true analysis of the current state.

Posted by: Rich at July 30, 2009 9:07 AM
Comment #285297
And yet the Republicans do nothing. Have no plan. Refuse to take part in the conversation.

Actually, they have offered their own plan, it just isn’t pressworthy since it will never be considered. And in the Senate there is a ‘group of 6’, 3 democrats and 3 republicans, who are hashing out details of what they will offer to the floor.

So I wouldn’t say they are refusing to take part in the conversation. There is just no reason for the other side of the conversation to listen to what they are trying to say.

Posted by: Rhinehold at July 30, 2009 9:32 AM
Comment #285306

Rhinehold, it isn’t pressworthy because it is ridiculous, 700 billion dollar tax transfer payment to the private insurance industry and for profit health care delivery corporations like big Pharma.

Nearly 80% of Americans in polling express fear and concern over rising health insurance premiums pricing them out of insurance or losing their insurance with a job status change or pre-existing condition should they have to change insurers. These people are not looking to have their taxes transferred to corporate wealth coffers, which is the heart and soul of the Republican plan.

You are right. The Republicans offer nothing to justify the American people listening to what they have to offer. The American people received the low-down on Republican thinking during the GW Bush years, represent the corporations and Wall St. who cratered our economy, threatened our jobs and economic future, and who now insist upon maintaining astronomical compensation even with federal tax dollars underwriting that compensation.

No, Americans have the low-down on who the Republicans serve and represent and the majority are acutely aware it ain’t them.

Mike Pence was lying his arse off on TV today first criticizing the more than 1 trillion dollar tax cost of the Democrat plan, and then touting the 700 billion dollar tax cost plan of Republicans. Lies, misinformation, and deception. And this guy does it with such a straight face, even in the face of facts being thrown back to him, like the Democrat’s plan requiring only about 300 billion in additional tax revenues, and that their plan is now estimated to have a total cost of 900 billion, not over one trillion, of which 2/3 will be paid for through savings and cuts in existing government health care costs., not new taxes imposed.

If America doesn’t get health reform, which it desperately needs for its economic future, it will be because of liars and corporate lackeys like Mike Pence spreading false fear and deceptive misinformation out like candy amongst the public who haven’t the time or education to follow the details and facts of the debate at hand.

It’s as if the Republicans are saying, if we can’t have power, we will ruin this nation’s future in retaliation.


Posted by: David R. Remer at July 30, 2009 12:36 PM
Comment #285308

David,
“It’s as if the Republicans are saying, if we can’t have power, we will ruin this nation’s future in retaliation.”

That sums it up perfectly.

Posted by: phx8 at July 30, 2009 1:35 PM
Comment #285312

I agree that if health care reform turns into another weak excuse for reform it will not be the GOP’s fault. Blue Cross … I mean Blue Dog Dems own this one. They are in the pockets of the health care industry and are doing their bidding. This nonsense about killing old people is among the most ridiculous fear mongering I have heard from a group that has made a career of ridiculous fear mongering. If the GOP and the right owns any of this it is being part of this propaganda campaign to spread lies like this. What’s next - all Americans have to report to the ministry of health to get the red jewel installed in your hands so the evil socialists will know when you are ready for recycling.

Posted by: tcsned at July 30, 2009 1:53 PM
Comment #285316

KAP-
They are not to blame. That’s our own fault. But we’re working through it, as I have already indicated.

I don’t believe anybody’s following Pelosi blindly. I’ve seen people following a majority leader and a speaker of the house blindly. They didn’t call DeLay the Hammer because he wore parachute pants and danced the typewriter. Republicans voted Party line on issues a ridiculous number of times.

I mean, square this with me: how is it that people are following Pelosi blindly, at the same time they’re not able to keep their people together? If they’re following her blindly, we wouldn’t have the problems we’ve had over the last few days with the Blue Dogs and the Progressive Caucus cooperating with each other. One argument concedes the falsity of the other.

Choose which you’re going to make.

As for the Republicans? They’re plan resembles their last bit of Healthcare Legislation.

The real problem is, for all the hype about Baucus’s solonic six, the deal they came up with just absolutely pissed the rest of the Democrats off, and was soon scuttled by two of the Republicans on that committee.

Or put another way, Baucus is in no-mans land in terms of credibility.

The Republicans are putting would-be Democrats in a terrible position, which is problematic in the end, because you could have put forwards something serious with Baucus, and backed his bill, and you could have had the folks from the Democrats apprised of the negotiations so they would know what they were waiting for.

Instead, you get this bill sprung on them that is unacceptable, and doesn’t even get full Republican support.

What’s the point of bipartisanship, when its just a quick path to getting screwed? As I argue on my latest entry, the Republicans are just making it that much more difficult for the compromisers and the folks willing to deal with the Republicans to win by working with them.

Even if they get back a majority, they end up putting themselves in a position where the new minority has absolutely no incentive to work with them. Democrats in Washington can be slow learners, but even a blue dog can learn a lesson if its taught harshly enough, enough times.

Rhinehold-
Spectators? You mean they’re not casting any votes? I seem to recall them being fairly active and fairly organized, and very much willing to exploit parliamentary procedure to get their way. Those hundreds of failed cloture votes didn’t just happen spontaneously.

The Republicans, if they were really acting powerless, really being passive, would vote with the Democrats or not vote at all.

But of course if they are being an active impediment, and its not all the Democrats fault, then the Right Wing bears some blame for the current state of things. Given that this is an actual political strategy on the Republican’s part, the truth is more complex than that phony “minority equals powerlessness” talking point.

Or if I’m wrong, why has the number needed to pass anything in the Senate gone up to sixty? Did we have some constitutional amendment the rest of you all didn’t tell me about?

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at July 30, 2009 2:21 PM
Comment #285344

S.D.
You are so fixed on the mistakes of republicans that you and the rest of the liberals can’t see when your own party is screwing up. Both parties make mistakes, but you and the rest seem to think that republicans are to blame even for your parties mistakes, take your rose colored glasses off and get into the real world for a change and realize that both major parties are a group of screw ups.

Posted by: KAP at July 30, 2009 6:39 PM
Comment #285446

KAP-
There’s a reason one side isn’t allowed to rule exclusive of the other. Much as I would recommend people catch their own mistakes and prevent their own mistakes before others do, I think our system is built to make sure people keep each other honest.

But let me ask you a question: My party favored keeping regulations on the finance companies. My party tried to put healthcare reform in place. My party tried to get the Republicans to stop their losing trajectory on the war.

I recognized they made mistakes over the past thirty years that helped contribute to it. But our strategy has been to force improvements, and to get on our people’s case when they don’t come through on them. Go over to Kos and see how rose-colored our glasses really are. Read the diaries that lambast the Representatives and Senators who fail us.

And then look at all the Republicans have let happen, trying to think the best of their party. Look at the war they told themselves they could win if they stayed the course, and nobody was allowed to criticize it. Look at the Economic “reforms” they initiated, telling themselves that despite Enron, despite nearly every state telling them that unscrupulous lending was a problem, that everything would just self-correct. Then they tried letting one of the big investment banks fail. Unfortunately that meant a lot of the conglomerated financial institutions that they insisted could get together, as they had not before, also failed. Then they said, no bailouts! And that was when the market REALLY tanked.

People forget that, especially after a smokescreen of “dangers of socialism” rhetoric is applied for a few months.

You want to talk about rose tinted glasses, then I can talk about people who favor policies even when policies have failed, and can be proved to have failed on empirical grounds. But of course, we must trust the feelings of the right, because obviously, we mustn’t do anything the liberals say.

The Republicans can sustain their heedless, reckless behavior, because their party is entirely about supporting itself and its own agenda. Convenient, right? Except when you need a party whose people won’t just support any damn thing, who push for better policy, not merely Democratic Party Policy. Democrats don’t win so many of the party line battles because we don’t rigidly embrace one view. It’s ironic that people talk about Democrats drinking the kool-aid, even as they laugh at the contention within our ranks.

Rather convenient to argue both sides of the same point, isn’t it? You at least have half a chance to be right.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at August 1, 2009 11:01 AM
Comment #285478
KAP wrote: S.D. You are so fixed on the mistakes of republicans that you and the rest of the liberals can’t see when your own party is screwing up.
Funny. Where did you ever get that idea?

At any rate, the voters have the government that the voters elect (and re-elect, and re-elect, and re-elect , … , at least until that finally becomes too painful).

Posted by: banned at August 1, 2009 6:19 PM
Comment #285944

No one will deny that we need health care reform. However, is health care takeover the answer. Maybe the people that supports the bill as written should read the bill. I have. It will take over personal choice.

It will ration care. It will deny treatment as a cost savings measure. It will take away your choice and your doctor’s choice of treatment. It will delay life saving treatment.

Read the Bill. I did.

As far as euthanasia, it will happen. We have in Washington state a provision for legal assisted suicide. This will be an option under the present bill proposed.

Sec. 1233, Pg. 425, Lines 4-12 - Government mandates Advance (Death) Care Planning consultation. Think Senior Citizens and end of life. END-OF-LIFE COUNSELING. SOME IN THE ADMINISTRATION HAVE ALREADY DISCUSSED RATIONING HEALTH CARE FOR THE ELDERLY.

Sec. 1233, Pg. 425, Lines 17-19 - Government WILL instruct and consult regarding living wills and durable powers of attorney. Mandatory end-of-life planning!

Sec. 1233, Pg. 425-426, Lines 22-25, 1-3 - Government provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.

Sec. 1233, Pg. 427, Lines 15-24 - Government mandates program for orders for life-sustaining treatment (i.e. end of life). The government has a say in how your life ends.

There is more. Read the bill. Do not let this happen. You will be old (55+ years) someday yourself. Use the sanctity of life and the respect for humanity to guide our decisions.

Most in favor for this takeover are most in part fallen to the revisionist progressive propaganda because its easy. You don’t have to use your own convictions this way.

It is delusional to think the government can do health care better than the free market. The very people who came up with this bill have bankrupt the present government run systems such as Medicare, Medicaid, Veteran’s health benefits and benefits for Native Americans. Check out what happened to these programs before signing on to a system that controls 18% of the gross national product.

Betsey McCaughey, Wall Street Journal, July 30, 2009 “Government Care’s Assault on Seniors”

But legislation now being rushed through Congress—H.R. 3200 and the Senate Health Committee Bill—will reduce access to care, pressure the elderly to end their lives prematurely, and doom baby boomers to painful later years.

The Congressional majority wants to pay for its $1 trillion to $1.6 trillion health bills with new taxes and a $500 billion cut to Medicare. This cut will come just as baby boomers turn 65 and increase Medicare enrollment by 30%. Less money and more patients will necessitate rationing. The Congressional Budget Office estimates that only 1% of Medicare cuts will come from eliminating fraud, waste and abuse.


In Truth and liberty,

Dr. Brian Zerr

Posted by: Dr. Brian Zerr at August 9, 2009 3:18 PM
Comment #285946

You people disgust me!!!! All I see while reading the comments is your fingers jammed into others faces. It is disgusting. I get sick and tired of defending positions because you lack the awareness of a new born baby. The fact is the Republicans have produced bill after bill since this administration took office. Time after time they have been SNUBBED by the Democratic leadership. They have been blocked by the same leadership for entering the decisions and the same leadership refuses to have any debate. This is to the point the Republican leadership is talking filibuster. Now the Democratic leadership being the sleazy dogs they have always been (plz do not ask for reference because it would far too much) are running as fast as they can to get their entire agenda through, NOW!!! “Waste not a good crisis” as quotes from R. Emanuel. We ALL have a right to paranoia since Obama has shielded himself with left wing radicals (once again do not ask me to show reference). Have you even looked into all 40 something Czars? Have you looked into the not so experienced cabinet? I think not!!! These people have the most socialist liberal agenda ever. The books they cite and have read all promote euthanasia for the betterment of society. There is cause for concern. If the bill was properly worded we wouldn’t have this discussion but it is not. Once again a bill has been written that leaves much to the interpretation. Normal people would say the doctor is “duty” bound to inform ones patient of the pros and cons to continue treatment, that being said, is there anything in the bill that says once you are diagnosed “terminal” we will stay pay your bills in hope you recover? What better way to SAVE the government money than to refuse care for a terminally ill patient! Of course you know Sen. Kennedy is getting the best of treatment on his death bed! Fix the abuse, fraud and computerize the system we currently have, don’t overhaul the best medical care available in the world. Get the illegals OUT of the system, period! Do your homework about who is running this country.

Posted by: Debbie A. at August 9, 2009 3:34 PM
Comment #285961

Robert Fojo-
The bill does not require that someone undergoes this consultation. It requires that such an opportunity is made available to them, if they wish to use it. So your entire argument is bogus.

Posted by: Seatech1 at August 9, 2009 8:04 PM
Comment #286091

Nope. You’re wrong, Mr. Fojo. I just got done reading Section 1233. You might want to read it yourself before you write another blog about it. You state: “it requires an “advance care planning consultation” for the elderly” Not so. It merely allows paying for it. Nothing in the bill about a requirement.

Oops!!!

Posted by: DrTom at August 11, 2009 10:25 PM
Comment #286229


I think that it is sad that this party is even considering euthanasia as a solution in order to save money for healthcare. If they cared so much for America and its citizens why are they doing this? Why? Every life is important!!! Isn’t this party the same one who is a supporter of pro-life, but yet on the other hand they are considering such an unrealistic view!!!

Posted by: sa at August 13, 2009 1:44 PM
Comment #288960

I’ve studied this topic in my Biology class last year. This situation is reality and many people have to deal with each each year. And doing this one simulation, I’ve learned how the different viewpoints of different people in the life of one with a terminal illness see the situation. A lot of the times, the people closest to them want to provide the person with life support. But other times, other people feel it is necessary to let life do its duty rather than play God. In reality, it is the decision of the person with the illness. They should choose how and when they die, whether it being far off, or the next week. Because one can never know what one desires for their death unless it’s written. I think it’s important to put in consideration the wants of the one dying.And no one else should make that decision, whether it be euthanasia or “pulling the plug”.

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