Proud of Our Country (on many occassions)

I was willing to overlook Mrs. Obama’s gaff about not being proud of her country, but I am too surprised by her evident lack of contrition. For those who may have missed her remarks, she said, “For the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country…” The woman is in her forties, very articulate and she has led a privileged life. How does a thought like that even pop into her head?

I have been proud of my country just about every day of my adult life. I thought maybe it was because I was just luckier than Mrs. Obama. Maybe she saw more of the dark side than I did. So I checked out her biography. Hers is a charmed life most people can only hope for or aspire to. She had a clearer way forward than anybody I knew growing up.

Everybody makes mistakes, but I suspect that many people on the Obama team do not consider this a mistake. Her audience cheered. There were no gasps. Some people have come so far in the ritualistic trashing of our country that they find it unremarkable that a rich, educated, attractive (she was one of the ten best-dressed women according to “Vanity Fair”) privileged woman can claim that her country gave her nothing to be really proud about for more than forty years. Perhaps the constant struggle of attending top-schools on scholarships, holding rewarding jobs and making piles of money has made her less grateful to her country than those lucky young men and women serving in Iraq or Afghanistan (who are proud of their county). But as a gesture to us less sophisticated people, those of us who still think it a good thing to be proud of our country, she might be a little more sensitive. So maybe the Obama power couple can just throw the patriots a bone. Just come out and say that they are and have been proud of their country and that Mrs. Obama simply misspoke.

Maybe as an exercise, she and Barrack can come up with a list of ten things they are proud of from the last twenty years. Surely two Ivy League Lawyers could think of that many. If not, I am sure they could walk down the street and stop in the first bowling alley or bar they came to and ask the ordinary guys for their list. Someone less blinded by privilege may still be able to see the greatness of his/her country.

Posted by Jack at February 21, 2008 12:44 AM
Comments
Comment #245933

Maybe she was talking about these 10+ abuses of the past 30 years?
Things could be better, no?

Posted by: d.a.n at February 21, 2008 12:52 AM
Comment #245936

That’s right, d.a.n. Let’s just trash our country. Things could be better.

I really wonder about the point of reference. I have been a American for more than 50 years. I have seen lots of things go wrong and lots of things go right.

There are two extremes of measurment that are worthless. You can make the criteria so easy that anything passes or so hard that nothing does.

An intelligent person steers clear of both. I am sorry that you and Mrs. Obama cannot think of ten things to be proud of in the last 20 years. Maybe that is the problem with our country. The lack of perspective and lack of pride is appalling. I am not proud of that either.

Thanks for your note. I expected to get something like that, just not so fast.

I am sorry that the America you and the Obamas live in is so terrible. Mine is much nicer.

Posted by: Jack at February 21, 2008 1:08 AM
Comment #245937
Jack wrote: That’s right, d.a.n. Let’s just trash our country. Things could be better.
Nonsense.

I trash bad things.
Not our country.
There’s a difference, which some people are too blind to recognize due to blind partisan loyalties.

I deal with facts.
Some good things have happened too (see below).
But you did not provide a shred of evidence to refute the list of 10+ abuses. Only empty, unsubtantiated conclusions.

Rather than resorting to personal attackes, why not address the 10+ abuses?

By the way, here are some good things …
Some good things have happened:

  • (1) We got the U.S. Constitution.

  • (2) We abolished slavery.

  • (3) We have made progress against discrimination based on race, religion, color, ethnicity, gender, disabilities, etc.

There has been progress, but:

  • (1) it comes painfully, and it is a bumpy ride,

  • (2) It is 2.00 steps forward, and 1.99 steps backward.

  • (3) We have been going backwards again for about 30 years due to these 10+ abuses.

Posted by: d.a.n at February 21, 2008 1:18 AM
Comment #245939
Jack wrote: I am sorry that the America you and the Obamas live in is so terrible. Mine is much nicer.
Jack, My life is fine.

I own two homes (paid in full), one vacation home on 30 acres in mountains, a loving family, good health, and my wife, son, and daughter in-law all have college degrees.

But, just because I have it good, doesn’t mean I should conveniently ignore (like some people) the fact that these 10+ abuses have been cheating most Americans for 30+ years.

Also, why do you find it so offensive, resorting to such statements above, by my merely saying things could be better?
How does that equate to …

Jack wrote: That’s right, d.a.n. Let’s just trash our country.

Where did I say America was terrible?
Jack wrote: I am sorry that the America you and the Obamas live in is so terrible.

When did I ever say there weren’t at least 10 good things to be proud of in the last 20 years. I did not say what Mrs. Obama said?
Jack wrote:
I am sorry that you and Mrs. Obama cannot think of ten things to be proud of in the last 20 years.

Jack wrote:
Thanks for your note. I expected to get something like that, just not so fast.

Wow … perhaps you read things into it that don’t exist. I’ll try to be slower next time.
Jack wrote:
Maybe that is the problem with our country. The lack of perspective and lack of pride is appalling. I am not proud of that either.

I gave you a list of things that are truly appalling. Why not focus on that, rather than fueling the partisan warfare?
Mrs. Obama isn’t runnnig for office, and I wonder why some people are making such a big deal about her statement.
Could it possibly be partisan motivated?

Lastly, if you look at my first post above, it consisted of two questions (with a question mark ? at the end of each question).

Posted by: d.a.n at February 21, 2008 1:40 AM
Comment #245941

d.a.n.

We know that any place has its good and its bad aspects. Why is it whenever anybody brings up anything good, people have to jump to the bad?

It is like my kid coming home with a good grade and me immediately telling him about the times when his homework wasn’t done on time.

I have visited scores of countries and lived in some that I thought were very pleasant. I have studied history most of my life. When I made a realistic assessment of my country and this time and place, I find lots I would want different, but the progress and achievements have been fantastic.

The Obama couple is an excellent example of how far we have come with the problem of race. Imagine that, a mixed race son of an unskilled immigrant,coming from a home where his father was not present, gets an Ivy League education, makes piles of money and can be a serious contender for president of the United States. His wife has a similar charmed story. This is truly remarkable.

One of the things I am proud of in my lifetime is that our country has gone so far in providing that kind of opportunity. Not everyone clearly is as lucky as Obama, but the fact that they can make it shows that opportunity exists.

Their life story is not uncommon. My grandfather immigrated to this country with nothing. My father dropped out of the 10th grade. I have a good job and a good education. This IS the American way, for Obama, for me and for millions of others. It is something to be proud of and not for the first time in our lives when we are 40 years old and on the road to achieving our country’s highest office.

Posted by: Jack at February 21, 2008 4:11 AM
Comment #245944

Jack,

First of all, this is a silly “gotcha” issue and will have no effect on the election. People aren’t going to worry about this nonsense when there are real problems to discuss.

If we must dissect her words, I would say that there is a difference between loving your country and being proud of it. I always love my country, but I am not always proud of it. It is like a parent and a child. When your child does something wrong, you love him but your are not proud of him.

Posted by: Woody Mena at February 21, 2008 7:12 AM
Comment #245947

Personally, I don’t care what Michelle Obama or Cindy McCain says. Neither one of them is running for president.

Frankly, I think this is a non-issue. I suspect that, like most people, if someone gives 10 things they’re proud of about the US, they can give 10 things they’re not proud of. No big deal. I’m not happy with a lot of things my country has done. Conversely I AM happy about a lot of things my country has done.

Posted by: Donna at February 21, 2008 8:39 AM
Comment #245948

Donna,

Most people would agree with you, but standing in front of a large group of people and saying that this is the FIRST TIME you have been proud of your country is a far cry different. It speaks to an individual’s view of their country and how they see it…

Does it matter in the long run? Most likely not very much, after all, she is not running. But does her husband think the same way? I know my wife and I think differently on a number of issues, but we also think alike on a number of issues. So it is a fair question, in my view…

Posted by: Rhinehold at February 21, 2008 8:48 AM
Comment #245950

I thought it was the wing nuts that hate our government, our country, the people of this country and they hate to pay taxes to support the country and the people that they hate!!!!!!!!

I have to admit the last 7 years has been a shameful, dark stain on the face of this country!!!!! It would be hard for anyone honest to say they have been proud of the level of dishonesty and crime that we have seen in the leaders of this country (bush crime family)!!!!!!

I don’t think what she said is out of line with what has happened to this country under the rule of the wing nuts from Nixon on down to the smirking chimp!!!!

Posted by: Outraged at February 21, 2008 9:06 AM
Comment #245953

Michelle Obama’s sentiment of pride is not one that excludes the love of her country, and it’s sickening to see how quickly Republicans and right-wingers have jumped to imply this.

I think it’s been some time since we’ve seen our country finally start to get sick of the steadily diminishing expectations of the individual, sick of having stupidity, mediocrity, and inordinate love of the status quo overcome our ability to gather together and work together to make things right. I feel the kind of pride she’s talking about, not just the natural love of a country that most Americans have (despite the Right’s malicious rhetoric to the contrary), but genuine pride of America living up to its promise, rather than down to its critics worse slanders.

Like yours, Jack. I think the biggest reasons why Obama scares your party is that he can sell people on the rebirth of America’s promise, while your rhetoric has America always on life support, perched to fall if people don’t agree with you and your agenda. I believe the Republicans have helped to create a massive inferiority complex for this country, which has each generation underestimating its capabilities further and further.

The Greatest generation was great in no small part because people got a sense of what America could do when it worked together, when the state worked for the people, and not just the interests of the elite.

If my generation is to be the next great generation, it will not be because we’re all something special in comparison to the last. It will be because we no longer accept the mediocrity that previous generations to ours accepted.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at February 21, 2008 9:39 AM
Comment #245955
Jack wrote: d.a.n. Why is it whenever anybody brings up anything good, people have to jump to the bad?
Look whose talkin’ !

Mrs. Obama said she was proud, even if it was the first time in 26 years.
But you and others are trying to jump on the bad and exploit it for all it is worth.

Jack wrote: It is like my kid coming home with a good grade and me immediately telling him about the times when his homework wasn’t done on time.
Bad analogy. Not the same thing at all.

Besides, Mrs. Obama is not running for President.
If you are grasping substantive issues, why do you and the media not address Obama’s positions and voting records on illegal immigration, spending, pork-barrel (pathetic CAGW.ORG) report cards, etc.?
Oooohhhhh … that’s right. Fueling the circular, distracting partisan-warfare is the plan, eh?

Jack wrote: I have visited scores of countries and lived in some that I thought were very pleasant.
Me too. Have even lived and worked in several (including Iran).

There are many countries that I would consider better in most ways than the U.S., due to these worsening abuses over the past 30 years.
There have been good things, and the U.S. is still in the 10% of good places to live, but that may not last long if people keep turning a blind eye (especially a partisan blind eye) to real abuses, growing in number and severity.

Jack wrote: I have studied history most of my life. When I made a realistic assessment of my country and this time and place, I find lots I would want different, but the progress and achievements have been fantastic.
Studying history doesn’t mean much if little (or nothing) is learned from it.

Yes, good things have happened too.
There has been progress (2.00 steps forward, 1.99 steps backward).
But the sad fact is, we have been going backwards for too long now.
The negatives are now over-taking the good, and it is not hard to prove.
If a persons really cares, they won’t so adamantly discard and dismiss those that disagree; especially to fuel the partisan warfare.

Incomes have been falling (especially considering more workers per household, more regressive taxation, illegal immigration, and dishonest, ururious, predatory monetary system, several Constitutional violations, and lies and exaggerations to start an unnecessary war, and these 10+ abuses cheating most Americans widening the wealth disparity gap).

Jack wrote: The Obama couple is an excellent example of how far we have come with the problem of race.
I agree, and have acknowledged the good.

But we can’t ONLY see some good, so that we can turn a blind eye to the bad.

Jack wrote: Imagine that, a mixed race son of an unskilled immigrant,coming from a home where his father was not present, gets an Ivy League education, makes piles of money and can be a serious contender for president of the United States. His wife has a similar charmed story. This is truly remarkable.
Yes, it is, in spite of racism that still exists.

We should also give Obama and Hillary credit too for their successes, despite the cards being stacked against them.

Jack wrote: One of the things I am proud of in my lifetime is that our country has gone so far in providing that kind of opportunity. Not everyone clearly is as lucky as Obama, but the fact that they can make it shows that opportunity exists.
Again, I would not chaulk it up to mere luck. Obama and Hillary deserve credit too, for their successes, despite the cards being stacked against them.

You may want to stress that case and give your nation all of the benefit for that, but the fact is, people can’t always be oppressed forever.

Jack wrote: Their life story is not uncommon. My grandfather immigrated to this country with nothing. My father dropped out of the 10th grade. I have a good job and a good education. This IS the American way, for Obama, for me and for millions of others. It is something to be proud of and not for the first time in our lives when we are 40 years old and on the road to achieving our country’s highest office.
Yes, but that is now changing, and these 10+ abuses have been eroding those gains for 30 years, and we have now been going backwards too long (2.00 steps forward, 1.99 steps backward).

Unless you can explain away these abuses, some many Americans are not yet even aware of (e.g. the dishonest, usurious, pyramid-scheme nature of the monetary system; Constitutional violations, falling incomes, massive debt, inflation and the erosion of the U.S. Dollar, massive corprate welfare and subsidies for the wealthy, the thousands murdered annually by illegal aliens, etc., etc., etc.), then the good things start to fall behind the bad things.

Therefore, your statement …

Jack wrote: That’s right, d.a.n. Let’s just trash our country. Things could be better.
Is nonsense.

I trash the bad things.
Not my country.
You should be happy that someone gives a damn to focus on REAL problems AND solutions (one-simple-idea.com).
If I didn’t care, I wouldn’t waste my time with this.
There is a big difference between addressing problems and trashing one’s own country, which some people are too blind to recognize due to blind partisan loyalties.

But that is exactly what some people always do (for partisan reasons); challenging others’ patriotism and loyalty to their nation whenever they point out VALID issues of concern.

I would not have said what Mrs. Obama said, but your article is trying awfully hard to make a big deal out of it, and twist her into a traitor of the nation, making your article reaching, twisting, and grasping nonsense.

Posted by: d.a.n at February 21, 2008 9:43 AM
Comment #245957

Jack

My initial thought when hearing this a few days ago was that she should have been more specific. Not that it really matters, but has she been allowed to explain herself? It is easy to assume the worst. However I do not believe we can honestly hold this against her without knowing the intent of her statement. She is a black woman. Maybe a woman of privilege, but never the less I am sure she has had to deal with racial biases and slander in her lifetime. Being well off does not automatically exclude one from the hatreds of ethnic biases. Nor does it mean that she has not seen the biases held against those less fortunate than her. Perhaps she has empathy for those of her race who have not been as fortunate as herself.

I put myself in her place and tried to imagine why she would say such a thing. My thoughts were that she is proud that for the first time in her life millions of Americans of all persuasions, race, color and political affiliation are supporting, trust, and believe in the goals of a minority American.

To be honest, it makes me feel good to. I can not recall a time in my life when I have seen so many Americans of so many persuasions come together so rabidly behind a common cause. And the fact that the person inspiring that cause is a black man makes it even more incredible. I to am proud of our country at this moment. But as others have said I am not always so proud of the directions we take. This does not mean I do not love my country. There is a difference between pride and love. I was not always proud of things my children did, but I loved them regardless.

Posted by: RickIL at February 21, 2008 9:49 AM
Comment #245958

Dan

Do not fret. I am surprised that by now you have not figured out that some feel great contempt for any liberal minded person who was born into wealth or attained that wealth via frivolous means. ie: sports, actors, musicians etc. It is an affliction which affects those who think their way is the only way.

Posted by: RickIL at February 21, 2008 10:01 AM
Comment #245959

Since you Republicans are back in your “character counts” mode, I’m sure you were thrilled hear about this story about McCain’s relationship with a lobbyist. I have a feeling that in a few days you guys will be begging to talk about “the real issues”.

And if this lobbyist thing turns out to be nothing, I’m sure Democrats will have fun dissecting McCain’s public statements. The guy has verbal diarrhea sometimes. Remember, this is the kind of campaign you wanted!

Posted by: Woody Mena at February 21, 2008 10:07 AM
Comment #245961

Woody

I don’t care if it makes a difference in the election. It makes a difference to me. It is a symptom of that blame America first pathology. If the woman cannot find anything to be proud of in her country since around 1975, I pity her. But I cannot pity her because she is so privileged by the country she cannot be proud of.

Donna

Please see above. I am just sick of people walking on my county, especially the rich and successful.

Outraged

You chose a good pseudonym. May I refer you to Aristotle for his views on anger.

Stephen

People who feel inferiority complex because they are Americans are accurately assessing their own characters, but not that of their country.

d.a.n.

I have never found a country where I preferred to live – more or less permanently – more than the U.S. Neither have you, BTW, unless you are writing from Iran by choice.

RickIL

I have no trouble with rich people. I admire people like Obama or Clinton who have achieved a lot in life. But to imply that they did it in spite of the U.S. is silly. I came a long way from the circumstances of my birth and I thank my country for the opportunity. That does not mean I think it was luck or undeserved, but I am proud that my country provide opportunity to Clinton, Obama & me.

Woody

Re McCain – yes, let the swift boating begin. I think the Dems are jumping the gun a bit on this, however. Better to hold it off until closer to the election.

Posted by: Jack at February 21, 2008 10:24 AM
Comment #245962

“However I do not believe we can honestly hold this against her without knowing the intent of her statement”

I agree Rick. She may have just been caught up in the emotion of the moment or maybe she is just real happy the left will soon be ruling us.
Whatever it is, its her feelings and probably nothing more.

Posted by: kctim at February 21, 2008 10:33 AM
Comment #245963

Outraged
You chose a good pseudonym. May I refer you to Aristotle for his views on anger.
Posted by: Jack at February 21, 2008 10:24 AM


Thank you Jack for the reference!!!!!!!

I am from the Midwest where angry white men are a part of the landscape!!!!!!

I tried not to let it affect me in a negative way but I guess that it has in some ways!!!!

I have just become an angry, defensive, liberal, white man because of the environment that I grew up in!!!!! I am somewhat of a rebel from the 60s, rebelling against the angry wing nut white men who have dominated the Midwest for so many years!!!!

Come take a drive thru the rust belt and see for yourself what the wing nuts have done to their environment. It is outrages!!!!!!

Posted by: Outraged at February 21, 2008 11:14 AM
Comment #245965

Jack, Rhinehold,

I have to agree with Donna above. It is a “non-issue” and if Mrs. Obama’s comment is anything, it is indicative of how soft and cushy we have it here in the U.S.

I opine that if Mrs. Obama had grown up in Uganda during the rule of Idi Amin Dada, she would have cause to utter what she did (about Uganda). If she had spent her formative years growing up under the sadistic rule Saddam Hussein, she would be justified in her remark about Iraq.

However, she didn’t. She grew up in an America where the rich and arrogant of the far, far left trash this country as a sport…where it’s become “cool” and popular to refer to our leaders as Nazis, while never growing up Jewish under the rule of the National Socialist (Nazi) Party of Germany. She never grew up in a country where the great majority of the populace live in abject poverty, living in a hovel made of mud or sticks.

Are her remarks important to this election? No. They are just “off the cuff” remarks by someone who is trying to sound “cool” and “hip”…who is trying to pander to the far left of left constituancy.

It’s just “politics as usual”. Ignore it. ‘Nuff said.

Posted by: Jim T at February 21, 2008 11:48 AM
Comment #245966

Jack-
What are you speaking of, when you talk about pride?

A vague, nationalistic pride in our inherent superiority, or a genuine pride in seeing people become active participants in their destinies, rather than passive victims of fate?

I think that’s what Mrs. Obama is talking about. Given a choice, I’d rather have reason to be proud, than to project some moral superiority on myself for a sentiment that most people have of their own countries for obvious reasons.

As for inferiority complexes?
For as long as I can remember, Republicans have seen the average person as being money-grubbing, lazy, overly dependent, pampered, gullible, and completely lacking the stomach to do what’s necessary in our own defense.

When we insist on social programs, y’all say its because we’re just greedy for getting money without having to work for it. When we insist on labor regulations and higher pay, we’re seen as lazy deadweight on the economy. When we ask for the government’s help to repair the damage wrought by natural disaster or the negligence and malice of others, we’re told we’re too dependent, that we should be better motivated to climb up out of the adverse circumstances all on our own.

When we oppose violations of the constitution, or what we see as various misuses of the military and law enforcement, we’re told that we’re endangering ourselves by not letting the administration do what it pleases.

It seems like the GOP can hardly stand the average American, and for a time, Americans had low enough self-esteem to actually accept that verdict. Now we’re beginning to see that although the harm was self-inflicted, a great deal of that problem was our accepting that cynical, elitist diagnosis of America’s condition. We’re better than the pundits think we are, and regaining that confidence is important to our recovery.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at February 21, 2008 11:51 AM
Comment #245967

Jack,

++Donna

Please see above. I am just sick of people walking on my county, especially the rich and successful. ++

So? And I’m sick of people who make mountains out of molehills. I don’t see one thing that she said as “walking over your country.” I see someone expressing her opinion (and one that was complex than the piece people seem to be pulling out to talk about). And last time I looked, expressing an opinion doesn’t mean having to get your approval or mine or anyone else’s.

Honestly, don’t people have something better to complain about? There are a whole host of issues that need confronting. Getting your knickers in a twist over something like this just doesn’t seem worth the sweat.

Posted by: Donna at February 21, 2008 11:56 AM
Comment #245968
I think the Dems are jumping the gun a bit on this, however.

You mean the New York Times. They are not a Democratic mouthpiece — I remember how they treated the Clintons in the 90s.

Posted by: Woody Mena at February 21, 2008 11:58 AM
Comment #245970

Rhinehold,

++Most people would agree with you, but standing in front of a large group of people and saying that this is the FIRST TIME you have been proud of your country is a far cry different. It speaks to an individual’s view of their country and how they see it…++

Odd. She also spoke about hope making a comeback. Right before the comment about pride. Strange how that seems to have gotten lost in all of this.

I’m sorry. I just don’t see this as anything to get worked up over. I don’t spend a whole lot of time worrying about what someone’s spouse says when I’m not casting a ballot for him/her. If people want to wonder if Senator Obama feels this way, perhaps someone should ask him. I’d be a bit more concerned if it came from him, but even then I’d look at the context of what he said.

Posted by: Donna at February 21, 2008 12:08 PM
Comment #245980

Jack’s original stated that Michelle Obama has had a “charmed life”. Perhaps Jack also “misspoke”. From the link Jack provided she was raised by working class parents in a working class neighborhood. She was not a child of wealth or privilege. Rather she came from a good home, with 2 parents who help steady but hardly high paying jobs. She earned her way into Princeton with good grades and hard work. Perhaps she had some EO help, hard to say. But EO doesn’t get you Summa Cum Laude from Princeton. Sorrry Jack, she has not led a charmed life. She has earned whatever she has attained from hard work and benefits of a solid family.

As to her statement itself, I agree is was not a real smart thing for her to say. Perhaps she just phrased it wrong. I’d hate for everything I ever said to be analyzed so thoroughly, I would certainly not hold up very well, nor would I suspect you would either. If you listen the whole of her speech, she immediately goes on to talk about how proud she is of what her husband is doing and how folks are responding, and how she thinks things are changing for the better. While you might not agree with that, to jump to the conclusion that she somehow isn’t proud of her country at all, well that’s just your agenda showing through.

Posted by: Steve K at February 21, 2008 12:58 PM
Comment #245982
RickIL wrote: d.a.n Do not fret. I am surprised that by now you have not figured out that some feel great contempt for any liberal minded person who was born into wealth or attained that wealth via frivolous means. ie: sports, actors, musicians etc.
Do you think that is Jack’s belief?

It may indeed come across that way?
However, more likely, I think the article is really mere partisan nonsense, fueling the partisan warfare, and trying to twist Mrs. Obama’s statement into something entirely different and sinister, as if she is some horrid traitor to America. While I think her choice of words were not good (i.e. I am proud of my nation for the first time in 26 years), I think some partisan hacks are desperate to find something to belittle and attack. What she should have said was “I am more proud of my nation than ever over the past 26 years”. And that may be what she meant?

RickIL wrote: I am surprised that by now you have not figured out that some feel great contempt for any liberal minded person who was born into wealth or attained that wealth via frivolous means.
Heck, some people think that is me; that I want to soak the rich.

Not at all. Fairness is the issue. But some think if you bring up anything BAD, you are a traitor or hater of America.

RickIL wrote: It is an affliction which affects those who think their way is the only way.
Perhaps. Calling others traitors, haters, and trashers to America, when they have VALID issues is getting old.

Their lame defense is typically: there is good too.
As if we should all put on our happy face and ignore the pain and misery, injustices, lawlessness, constitutional violations, usury, corpocrisy, regrressive taxation, an other numerous abuses.

Steve K wrote: Jack’s original stated that Michelle Obama has had a “charmed life”. Perhaps Jack also “misspoke”. From the link Jack provided she was raised by working class parents in a working class neighborhood.
Yeah. What’s up with that?

Sure there is good too.
But is that any reason to attack people who raise VALID issues?
Especially when the number and severity of those problems are growing?

Jack wrote: d.a.n. I have never found a country where I preferred to live – more or less permanently – more than the U.S. Neither have you, BTW, unless you are writing from Iran by choice
Good for you. So what?

Here we go again. If any one disagrees, they are some how a traitor to American, hater of America, or intent on trashing our country, as evidenced by ?

Jack wrote:
That’s right, d.a.n. Let’s just trash our country.

Jack wrote: Neither have you, BTW, unless you are writing from Iran by choice
Not true.

Jack, the fact is, there are several places to live that are as good or better. If you’ve been around very much, you’d know that.
However, my entire family was born here and lives here in the U.S., and family often trumps everything else.
But, the shallowness of a statment that completely and conveniently ignores that fact is not at all surprising.
After all, many people in poorer nations prefer to remain for that very reason alone.

Besides, the U.S. is still in the top 20 places to live.
There are many more places that are much worse places to live.
Is that what you want to hear?

Trying to make people out as traitors or trashing America …

Jack wrote:
That’s right, d.a.n. Let’s just trash our country.

… is pure nonsense.

In fact, if you want to know the truth of the matter, what is unpatriotic is trying to constantly rationalize, trivialize, and minimize the nation’s most pressing problems (especially to fuel the circular, divisive, distracting partsan warfare), and these 10+ abuses, and calling those that disagree traitors, America haters, merely intent on “trashing our country” as demonstated here …
Trying to make people out as traitors or trashing America …

Jack wrote:
That’s right, d.a.n. Let’s just trash our country.

Donna wrote: I am just sick of people walking on my county, especially the rich and successful.
Donna, you’re right. These 10+ abuses (over the past 30 years) did not come about by mere coincidence.

But careful, you might be labeled a traitor and hater of America if you don’t act grateful for all of those abuses.

Posted by: d.a.n at February 21, 2008 1:17 PM
Comment #245983

Did Michelle Obama say:

“For the first time in my adult lifetime, I am proud of my country…”

No, what she said was:

“For the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country…”

The word “really” matters in that quote. It means that while Michelle Obama has been proud of our country before, right now, she has found a reason to feel especially proud of her nation. Being approximately the same age as she is, I have to agree with her.
The rise of a black leader with a positive message of hope, healing, and unity is something to embrace and be really proud of. Because the fact that so many people are judging Obama on the “content of his character rather than the color of his skin” means that Dr. King’s Dream for America is finally being realized.
Those of us who became adults as the Reagan Era began don’t have many things we can point to that have made us REALLY proud of America as a whole. Sure, we can point to pushing Saddam’s forces out of Kuwait, or the fact that we took part in the NATO campaign in Kosovo, which eventually lead to Milosevic being sent to the Hague for war crimes (even if he died before his trial was over), but neither of these actions brought peace or major resolutions to significant problems.

But of course, the right has to turn Michelle Obama’s deep pride, and simple acknowledgment that an American milestone is being reached into something else entirely, in order to belittle her pride, and snear at that milestone.

It’s nothing but a political cheap shot, and I think majority of Americans can see right through it.

Posted by: veritas vincit at February 21, 2008 1:18 PM
Comment #245985

Jack, a Black woman born during the year of the 1967 riots and growing up in Caucasion dominated society with glass ceilings for both women and minorities, seeing improvements but, never a resolution until lo and behold in 2008, she witnesses both a Black man and White Woman vie for the Presidency with real potential of winning, and you can’t imagine why she would say such a thing?

Nothing wrong with her statement, the fault is in your limited imagination and ability to view things from another’s perspective. A typical GOP flaw, don’t self-flagellate over it too much :-)

Posted by: David R. Remer at February 21, 2008 1:28 PM
Comment #245986

Jack what cheap propaganda. You are sounding desperate in your attempt to paint this as something it is not. Such typical barbs you spout to condemn these people.
“she has led a privileged life.”
“Hers is a charmed life most people can only hope for or aspire to. She had a clearer way forward than anybody I knew growing up.”
“attending top-schools on scholarships, holding rewarding jobs and making piles of money has made her less grateful to her country than those lucky young men and women serving in Iraq or Afghanistan (who are proud of their county).”
“Surely two Ivy League Lawyers “
as if working hard, becoming educated and successful is a bad thing.
Surely you realize its only the extremeist conservative movement members that fall for this elitist line anymore Jack.

BTW as you say she is “really proud”, maybe before she was only “proud”. Of course that would just make this post seem that much more ridiculous wouldnt it.
And who knows Jack maybe some of the soilders you are using for political gain are “really proud” now as well.

Donna, The repubs need to make mountains, big mountains out of molehills. Thats all they have left. They cannot run on record as they have trashed the country the past couple of decades. They cannot run on issues as they are just promising more of the same.n They have nothing left but sliming the opposition.

Posted by: j2t2 at February 21, 2008 1:46 PM
Comment #245987

Sorry veritas I guess good minds think alike. I didnt mean to rehash what you stated so well, I didnt see it until after I posted.

Posted by: j2t2 at February 21, 2008 1:49 PM
Comment #245990
Sorry veritas I guess good minds think alike. I didnt mean to rehash what you stated so well, I didnt see it until after I posted.

Not a problem j2t2. Btw, I also agree that only the extremists on the right deride a good education and professional accomplishments as “elitist.” Meanwhile, most of their own leadership went to those same “elistist” schools and have enjoyed plenty of professional and monetary success — but they’re hoping that the uneducated voters who choose to support their party won’t even pause to consider this fact when they’re snottily slapping that label on lefties.

Posted by: veritas vincit at February 21, 2008 2:48 PM
Comment #245991

Outraged

I was born in Milwaukee and almost never left the Midwest until I was 28. My family and my wife’s family still live in Wisconsin and I go back there every year. I think it is a beautiful place with generally nice people. I do not know what outrages you about our people.

It always seemed to me that people from Wisconsin were generally calm. I myself rarely get angry and neither do most of the people I know.

Jim T

We ignore that kind of thing too often. I agree that it is just an off the cuff stupid remark, but it has become too facile for people to say these sorts of things.

Stephen

Can’t you separate your country from your politic? Besides, Mrs. Obama’s adult life includes periods of Dem rule, with Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton and Dem Congress lots of time. Didn’t any of these guys do something you thought was good?

Re the average person, you may recall that until the last election, for much of Mrs. Obama’s life – most of the average people voted for the GOP. No Democrat has won more than 50% of the presidential vote since 1976. Republicans managed to do that four times.

I have confidence that average Americans can and want to help themselves. I want our government to create conditions that give them chances and opportunities and we have done that. I have confidence that the average American knows better for himself than Federal bureaucrats. Remember what Ronald Reagan said. He spoke for the people. He won nearly 60% of the vote. Nobody since then has come close.

Donna

She can say what she wants. I can say that what she said is silly. You can say what I say about her being silly is silly. That is the beauty of free speech. We all have the right to say what we want and we all have the right to criticize.

Woody

I don’t know who planted the story. The NYT generally treats Dems well.

Steve K

I read the bio. I think it is a charmed life. Many of us grew up in working class families. There are lots of working class people. From her bio, however, it looks like she enjoyed a life with fewer bumps than average, hence my characterization as charmed.

And, yes, she is proud of her husband but not of her country until her husband started to do very well. What do I need to add to that?

d.a.n.

You choose to live in America. That is the bottom line. It cannot be that bad in your opinion.

David

Objectively the Obamas have a charmed life in comparison to most Americans. I am sure lots of people would not mind being cursed with millions of dollars, great educations and profession success. If that is what it means being oppressed, my I be so cursed and may I never recover.

J2t2

I call attention to their high status and charmed life because it seems to be a syndrome in our great country that those who have been most fortunate are often the most dissatisfied. I don’t really understand it.

I don’t know very much about soldiers, but the Marines I talk to are generally really proud of America and have been even before Barrack Obama started to do well in the elections.

Honestly – let’s not parse words. Do we agree it was a stupid thing to say? I do not believe it will be important in the elections and I will not hold it against her if there is not follow up that shows it was more than a slip.

Posted by: Jack at February 21, 2008 3:02 PM
Comment #245992

Jack I don’t always agree with your post, but this on I do 100%

Donna, as far as not voting for the wife, you are correct, problem is all those wanting your vote parade the wives out with them, and take a look as far back as you can, and tell me who was the last 1st Lady you seen that did nothing but clean/cook and take care of the kids at the White House?

Ms Obama opened her mouth and let loose with her feelings, which she has the right to do but if this place is so bad before now, why hasn’t she gone some place else which she might think is better.

d.a.n, I like most of your post but the 10 worse things, gone a little to far. Being retired from the military I have seen a lot of bad in this country and others, but I have seen more good here then anywhere.

I usually vote Democrat, but Clinton and Obama are both to much for me. I will be voting for McCain.

KT

Posted by: KT at February 21, 2008 3:05 PM
Comment #245994

“won’t even pause to consider this fact when they’re snottily slapping that label on lefties”

That is because they aren’t the ones complaining about nobody helping the poor while their butler serves them the dinner their personal chef just made.
Wealthy liberals are hypocrites and deserve the label.

KT
I hear ya.
The Democratic Party has to put up a Democrat for President, before we can vote for one.

Posted by: kctim at February 21, 2008 3:25 PM
Comment #245995

Jack,

This whole “charmed life” business is a bunch of hooey. If they were Republicans you would be saying that they were smart and worked hard.

Posted by: Woody Mena at February 21, 2008 3:26 PM
Comment #245997

>she and Barrack

Hey Jack, if you’re going to write about this guy, could you at least spell his name, BARACK , correctly? Reminds me of good ol’ Dan Quayle trying to spell potato “POTATOE” - kind of blows your credibility if you can’t get comething simple like that right.

>I have been proud of my country just about every day of my adult life.

I noticed that although you are proud of your country every day of your life, you neglected to mention a single reason why you are proud or a single example of what about your country that you are proud. Oversight, maybe? I’d like to hear your response to these.

Personally, I’m having a hard time understanding the furor. Isn’t being proud of something an opinion, not a fact? For example, I was proud of one of my daughters being selected for the Duke TIP program when she was in 7th grade. Now someone else might not be proud of something like that, but I sure wouldn’t fault them for feeling the same as I do. Likewise, I was proud of myself for having been awarded a CISSP (Certified Information Systems Security Professional) last year, but again this is not something I expect anyone else to feel proud for me about.

Seems to me that in order to feel proud about something, I need to have achieved something or been instrumental in helping someone else achieve something. Now, if Michelle Obama doesn’t feel she’s been instrumental in this nation having achieved something during her adult life, so what?

I do take issue with the idea that she has anything to be proud about at this time, just because hubby looks more and more like the Dem nominee, but to each his or her own.

The last time I was proud of this country that I can recall was July 1969, when two American astronauts set foot on the moon, a tremendous achievement which I think most of our country supported, except ISTR a few conservatives who saw the entire space program as a waste of money.

Now last night Fox’s Krauthammer, Kondracke and Kristol were also in high (or at least medium) dudgeon about Michelle Obama having said what she said. They didn’t really explain why, a lot like you’ve done here Jack, they were so upset or what she should have been proud about, except Kristol who gave two examples of when he was proud of this country:

1) When the Berlin wall fell: I’m not sure how this would engender pride in America since after all the East Germans and the Russians took the wall down, not us. Sure, we faced the Russians down and encouraged their satellites to rebel, but come on - nothing to be proud of America about that. We were just doing what we would have done anyway.

2) The firefighters going into the WTC on 9/11: sure, I’m proud of those firefighters but don’t kid yourself - I’m proud of them but fail to see how that should make me feel proud of America. Maybe if all people in all of America were brave heros like those firefighters, it might reflect on America, but they aren’t so it doesn’t.

Finally, although it’s already been pointed out, I don’t think you can really try to smear BARACK Obama and make it stick by getting all spun up about something his wife said. Just goes to show you the difference between Dems and Repubs: no Repub candidate’s wife would ever have the latitude to put her foot in her mouth the way Michelle Obama did.

And one last thing: just because someone is not proud of something or can’t think of a reason to be proud of something, doesn’t mean they think it’s bad or that they don’t like it.

All I can say is if this is all you guys can come up with try to smear BARACK Obama, you’re in for a drubbing in about 9 months. This dog won’t hunt.

Posted by: spongeworthy at February 21, 2008 3:38 PM
Comment #245999

>I am sorry that you and Mrs. Obama cannot think of ten things to be proud of in the last 20 years.

Nor apparently can you, Jack. At least she’s honest about it.

Posted by: spongeworthy at February 21, 2008 3:41 PM
Comment #246000

Jack wrote: “Many of us grew up in working class families. There are lots of working class people.”

Well, how would you classify a father who works at a City Water Plant and a mom who works as a secretary at Spiegel? That’s not a working class family? Really??? Then I’d sure like to know what is. She enjoyed fewer bumps than the rest of us??? Please present evidence.

If that’s a charmed life, what the heck would you call the life George Bush grew up in? Certainly he was miles above someone like Michelle Obama.

And you guys claim the Dems engage in class warfare. Gimme a break.

Posted by: Steve K at February 21, 2008 3:45 PM
Comment #246001

kctim:

Wealthy liberals are hypocrites and deserve the label.

What hogwash. Liberals have always worked together to make ALL boats rise. In order to be successful this effort naturally requires people who have become well educated - whether their background is wealthy, middle class, or poor. There is nothing hypocritical about working hard to reach our collective goals, and we know that getting there has historically been a combined effort among many people hailing from all walks of life.


The Democratic Party has to put up a Democrat for President, before we can vote for one.

Clearly you don’t even know what Liberal or Democrat means.

Posted by: veritas vincit at February 21, 2008 3:48 PM
Comment #246002

KT >I usually vote Democrat, but Clinton and Obama are both to much for me. I will be voting for McCain.

Too much what? They epitomize the Democratic party. For someone who “usually vote[s] Democrat[ic]” to forsake Obama or Clinton for McCain makes absolutely no sense.

Jack>The Democratic Party has to put up a Democrat for President, before we can vote for one.

Jack, explain how the Democratic party is not putting up a Democrat for president when they are in fact putting up two right now. Are you saying these two genetic, registered Democrats are not, in your opinion Democrats? If they’re not Democrats, what on earth do you think they are? I’m worried about you, man. I think the painful elimination of Romney is messing you up.

Posted by: spongeworthy at February 21, 2008 4:01 PM
Comment #246003

God I get tired of the right wing Bull Crap about those who point out things that are being done wrong as “hating their country”
Bull Crap
If we hated this country we wouldn’t CARE that there were disgraceful things being done by the government —we wouldn’t EXPECT a higher standard and therefore would not be disappointed if the govt lived DOWN to our low estimate of it.

The reason most of us RAIL against the wrong doing (by the “evil doers”) is that WE LOVE OUR COUNTRY AND EXPECT NOTHING BUT THE HIGHEST STANDARDS.
IT IS EXACTLY BECAUSE WE ARE PROUD (AND WANT TO MAINTAIN OUR PRIDE IN OUR COUNTRY) THAT WE DO PROTEST AGAINST ANYTHING THAT MIGHT STAIN OUR REPUTATION.

I am sorry Jack that your ego is so fragile that you cannot openly and honestly look at those things that need changing and instead of shooting the messenger, ask how you might help to fix the problem and make our country even greater than it is.
It is your type of attitude that would still have women not voting, and white southerners owning slaves.- — after all pointing out the ills of slavery would only be done by “hate America First” people, couldn’t they see how much better the slaves had it here than in Africa??

If we are going to progress as a nation/civilization we cannot go around pounding our chests and continuing to proclaim how great we are (while ignoring the problems)
Your side of the aisle just chooses to ignore when our side of the aisle say anything (more likely DO something rather than SAY something) positive about this country.

What happened to you Jack, you used to post actual relevant material, but for the past few months it seems as tho you have turned off your brain, and let the ideologe rant out only!


Posted by: Russ at February 21, 2008 4:02 PM
Comment #246004

Folks, I think there is something very interesting going on here. I have been reviewing video replays of what Michelle Obama “really” said. First listen to this video:

http://blog.thehill.com/2008/02/19/michelle-obamas-proud-comment/

The listen to this one:

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2008/02/oops-she-did-it-again-michelle-obamas.html

In the first video you do not hear the word “really”, though you can almost it hear it, as if it was cut out. In the second you can clearly heard she said “really”. The word “really” (as a previous poster so eloquently explained) makes a world of difference in her statement. It also begs the question of why so many conserviative blogs and sites have omitted the work “really” from her quote. If you research reports of this, you will find some sources that omit the word, and some that don’t. To Jack’s credit he DID get it right. But when video is clearly altered to cut it out, one has to wonder if this is not some kind of effort to deliberately smear the lady. Because is she said “really proud” then the sentence and the speech have a whole new meaning and I for one now completely understand her statement. She may have been proud of her country many times before, just now she is especially proud. I know for certain that during the 9/11 attack, I said how “really proud” I was of the NYFD and NYPD. Sure didn’t mean I wasn’t proud of them prior to that. Just that then I was especially proud.

And No I don’t think she owes an apology or a clarification.

Posted by: Steve K at February 21, 2008 4:05 PM
Comment #246005
Jack wrote: d.a.n. You choose to live in America. That is the bottom line. It cannot be that bad in your opinion.
Jack, I was born in America, along with my entire family (Oklahoma and Texas).

You still choose to trivialized the family connections. Figures.

Jack, Did you not see above?
I wrote above:

  • the U.S. is still in the top 20 places to live.

But that is not the real issue.
The real issue is they way you try to portray anyone who also tries to address problems (such as these), as traitors, haters of America, with the sole goal to “trash our country”.

Jack wrote:
  • That’s right, d.a.n. Let’s just trash our country.

  • I am sorry that you and Mrs. Obama cannot think of ten things to be proud of in the last 20 years.

  • Maybe that is the problem with our country. The lack of perspective and lack of pride is appalling.

  • Thanks for your note. I expected to get something like that, just not so fast.

  • I am sorry that the America you and the Obamas live in is so terrible.

Why? To fuel the partisan warfare? To demonize people raising valid issues and twist their words and portray them as evil, traitors, and haters of American that only want to “trash our country”?

Do you really think that thinly veiled partisan-motivated warfare is working?

KT wrote: d.a.n, I like most of your post …
Thanks.
KT wrote: d.a.n, I like most of your post but the 10 worse things [abuses], gone a little to far.
Which ones, and why?

Why is it “going a little too far” to point out issues that actually exist?
But not only that, many offer solutions also (e.g. tax reform, healthcare reform, campaign finance reform, immigration reform, etc.).
If Americans are being hurt by these things, how is it going a little too far? (e.g. thousand murdered annually by illegal aliens, $70 Billion to $338 Billion in annual net losses, regressive taxation, a dishonest and usurious monetary system, lawlessness and constitutional violations, and wars started on exaggerations (if not out-right lies), etc).
I’m not saying there have been, and are no good things too.
But if those abuses are true, how is it going a little too far?

Also, remember, I wrote (above) that the U.S. is still one of the top 20 places in the world to live, and there are MANY worse places to live.
I’m happy to live in the U.S., but I recognize many fundamental things that have been worsening for 30 years.

KT wrote: Being retired from the military I have seen a lot of bad in this country and others, but I have seen more good here then anywhere.
I’ve seen severe poverty too in many countries (India, Iraq, Lebanon, Thailand, Mexico, etc.), and I’ve seen wealthy countries too (Belgium, England, France, Germany, Japan, Australia, Netherlands, etc.).

Again, the U.S. is still one of the top 20 places in the world to live, and there are MANY worse places to live.
But, is that any reason to ignore problems?
And is that any reason to demonize people raising valid issues and questions, and twist their words and portray them as evil, traitors, and haters of American that only want to “trash our country”?

Posted by: d.a.n at February 21, 2008 4:16 PM
Comment #246006

VV
“There is nothing hypocritical about working hard to reach our collective goals”

I never said there was, in fact, I wish more would work harder at this.
What I said was that wealthy liberals do not practice what they preach, they instead want everybody else to do it for them. They dine on personally prepared food every night and then complain how nobody does anything to help the hungry. They own 7 mansions, but complain how nobody cares about the homeless. Pure BS.

And believe me, I know the difference between a liberal and a Democrat. I used to vote Dem more often than not, until it became the liberal party and quit representing me.

Clearly, it is you who do not know the difference between a liberal and Democrat or you just don’t care about or respect that difference.

Posted by: kctim at February 21, 2008 4:19 PM
Comment #246007

Sponge
I made that statement, not Jack.
clinton, and especially Obama, are liberals, not Democrats.
It is not my opinion of what a Democrat is, but rather their stances on issues that distinguish between the two.

And, just for future reference, Jack has been a big McCain supporter for a while and I was never a Mitt guy.

Posted by: kctim at February 21, 2008 4:29 PM
Comment #246008

Russ, I was noticing the same thing.

Posted by: d.a.n at February 21, 2008 4:31 PM
Comment #246009

The truth is, if many (if any) here really hated America, they probably wouldn’t be here at all.

Bringing up problems AND proposing solutions does not make a person a traitor evil, ungrateful, or a hater of America.

A true patriot is one that questions things, analyzes problems, and proposes solutions.

Yes, there are many solutions and good ideas.
We are not short on good ideas.
Unforunately, the status quo and Congress is where good ideas to do die.

And that is why, in the next election, voters should not forget that their next president will be hampered (if not useless) if saddled with another FOR-SALE, corrupt, pork-happy, irresponsible Do-Nothing Congress.

Posted by: d.a.n at February 21, 2008 4:44 PM
Comment #246010

KT> I made that statement, not Jack.

I know you did Tim, that’s why I prefaced your quote with KT, which you’ll see if you go back to my post #246002 . I never thought Jack said what you said.

KT> clinton, and especially Obama, are liberals, not Democrats.

Of course, you must admit there are liberals who are Democrats, but being liberal in no way disqualifies one from Democratic party membership, so I’m not following your logic here.

Certainly, you must admit that if one is a registered Democrat and if one is running in Democratic party primaries and caucuses, the inescapable conclusion is that they are in fact Democrats. If not, why not?


KT> It is not my opinion of what a Democrat is, but rather their stances on issues that distinguish between the two.

No, it is party registration and party affiliation that makes one a Democrat or not, rather than their stances on issues. By the way, in general, liberals and Democrats see eye to eye on most issues, so I’m really not comprehending the point you’re trying to make about liberals not being Democrats or vice versa.

Posted by: spongeworthy at February 21, 2008 4:46 PM
Comment #246011

kctim-
So you’re telling actual Liberals and Democrats that you know more about what these labels mean than they do.

As for Rich Liberals? By your definition, they have to essentially give everything up in order to be considered sincere on feeding the hungry and housing the homeless.

So, in essence, the only way for the Rich not to be hypocrites is to be Republicans or conservatives, right?

The cariactures of the left are silly enough as they are. Basing political analysis on them is a farce.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at February 21, 2008 4:48 PM
Comment #246015

Sponge
I am KC, not KT. Its no big deal, I just try to avoid my views being associated with others, not fair to them. I wasn’t trying to be a wiseass or anything.

Granted, liberals and Democrats share some views, but liberals hold a more extreme stance on those. Look at the difference between a kennedy and an Ike Skelton.

“Certainly, you must admit that if one is a registered Democrat and if one is running in Democratic party primaries and caucuses, the inescapable conclusion is that they are in fact Democrats. If not, why not?”

On paper, yes, but not in reality.
On paper, there are two parties, Dem and Reps. In reality, there are four parties, liberal, Democrat, Republican and what many of the left call neo-cons.
Just my opinion and how I vote. I could never vote for a liberal, but I would vote for a real Dem like Skelton in a heartbeat.

“I’m really not comprehending the point you’re trying to make about liberals not being Democrats or vice versa”

The Dems lost the power because of this difference. I am a really big 2nd Amendment supporter, Dems respect that, liberals do not. (I use that issue only because I am familiar with it)

Stephen
I am not telling you I know more than you. I am only pointing out that there is a difference between how people believe and that it does affect your success at the polls.

“So, in essence, the only way for the Rich not to be hypocrites is to be Republicans or conservatives, right?”

Buffet doesn’t have to become a pauper to show he supports what he “says” he does, he just needs to live the same life he expects the rest of us to live in order to support what he “says” is the right thing to do. He thinks it’s wrong that he pays 17% but his sec pays 30%? Then he should volunteer and pay 30%.
Practice what you preach and if its noble, others will follow your example. That seems like a better solution for the country than the tax everybody to support your beliefs.

Posted by: kctim at February 21, 2008 5:16 PM
Comment #246017

Sponge, to much of what? Well how about to much sugar coated bs, and not enough substance.
Example: Oh lets give the illegal immigrants a chance to buy their way to be American, instead of doing it like many others the correct way. What BS they broke OUR laws, convict and send them back.
As seen on another board” calling a Illegal Immigrant a undocumented immigrant is like calling a drug dealer, a unlicensec Pharamist”

Plus other things I do not like about either of them. I am not a one issue person, I know that there are a lot of other issues and I make my choice on the overall view of the person. I am all for a womens choice for abortion, I believe as a citizen you should be able to own a gun(pistol), that you should limit the amount of time a person is on welfare(get a job), no more affirmation action(jobs and school by your ability). Government stay out of the mortage crisis, and to bring the troops home now from Iraq.

Both Obama/Clinton do not talk and represent my views of a Democrat, therefore I will not vote for either of them.

You have your views, I have mine and we will not change each others.

KT

Posted by: KT at February 21, 2008 5:25 PM
Comment #246018

>On paper, there are two parties, Dem and Reps. In reality, there are four parties, liberal, Democrat, Republican and what many of the left call neo-cons.

Now that’s some fine BS right there, Tim.

>Oh lets give the illegal immigrants a chance to buy their way to be American, instead of doing it like many others the correct way. What BS they broke OUR laws,
>convict and send them back.

I hate to break it to you but that’s McCain’s stance too. I thought you were now going to vote for McCain.

I think it’s time to stick a fork in this one, he’s done.

Posted by: spongeworthy at February 21, 2008 5:30 PM
Comment #246019

Jack, your reply to mine completely dodges the subject of mine. Guess your reply couldn’t really address mine without giving ground. Their relative success is irrelevant to the topic of my reply to you.

Posted by: David R. Remer at February 21, 2008 5:31 PM
Comment #246020

jack “I will not hold it against her if there is not follow up that shows it was more than a slip. “

How noble Jack considered she has already explained her intent. But somehow I dont think that makes much of a difference does it.

“Honestly – let’s not parse words. Do we agree it was a stupid thing to say?”
Parse or grossly distorted as in making a mountain out of a molehill distortion such as you have done Jack.

kctim “What I said was that wealthy liberals do not practice what they preach, they instead want everybody else to do it for them. They dine on personally prepared food every night and then complain how nobody does anything to help the hungry. They own 7 mansions, but complain how nobody cares about the homeless. Pure BS.”

kctim yeah Im seeing some BS my own self,are you saying because they dont grow the food, truck it to the food bank, cook it up and serve it they do not practice what they preach. Just because they financialy support the food bank thats not good enough? Do you hold the rich libertarians and conservatives to this same level of commitment?

BTW Jimmy Carter helps build houses for those that need the help, does that count at all. I dont know because I dont know any rich liberals but evidently thats because they are to busy checking in with you as to what hypocritical acts they have done each day. I only know what I hear when I listen to the talk radio conservatives but then I know enough not to believe what they say. I mean really kctim how do you know this statement you made to be a true and accurate reflection of the facts?


Steve K “Jack’s original stated that Michelle Obama has had a “charmed life”. Perhaps Jack also “misspoke”.” Steve K, Jack didnt mis speak he is stirring up the conservative movement troops that are disappointed in the repubs. They seem to be breaking ranks because the repubs spit in their face. They have no issues , no character and nothing to lose, well except some voters. These are the people Jack is targeting.
These people have been conditioned by talk radio and respond well to slurs and insults with no basis in fact unfortunately.

Posted by: j2t2 at February 21, 2008 5:33 PM
Comment #246021

KCTIM> Government stay out of the mortage crisis,

McCain disagrees.

KCTIM> and to bring the troops home now from Iraq.

McCain says he’s fine if we’re in Iraq 100 years from now.

KCTIM>I am all for a womens choice for abortion,

Not McCain.

KCTIM>The Dems lost the power because of this difference.

No, the Dems lost power because their top guy couldn’t keep his pants on then lied to the nation about it. I never agreed that the punishment fit the crime, but the rest of the country besides me seemed to.

My own mother, a lifetime, third generation Dem switched to the Repubs because she was so digusted by the Slickster. Of course, she’s starting to come to her senses again after 7+ long years of Repub malign neglect of everything the US government has ever done halfway right.

You’re right, I could never convince you or anyone else that McCain is not who you really want. So I’ll shut up now. I will not post to this thread again until Jack lists his 10 things he’s proud of America.

Posted by: spongeworthy at February 21, 2008 5:42 PM
Comment #246024

“Do you hold the rich libertarians and conservatives to this same level of commitment?”

Yes J2, I do. I hold everybody to that same level. Why? Because that is how I live my life. If I think the hungry need help, I do all I can until it hurts. I do not sit around and expect you or govt to do it for me.

“I mean really kctim how do you know this statement you made to be a true and accurate reflection of the facts?”

Are you saying the wealthy do not live a life of luxury and still ask why nobody helps the poor? Come on.

This is no different than saying everybody should pollute less and then going on tour and polluting tens times more than they do, in order to spread your message. This is no different than saying meat is murder and then going out hunting.

Besides, its all my opinion and what I use when I vote. If you guys don’t believe there is a difference between a kennedy or boxer and a Skelton, then fine. Run a boxer in Skeltons district and lose a seat. You don’t need the votes of us idiots who don’t think as you tell us anyway, do you.

Posted by: kctim at February 21, 2008 5:49 PM
Comment #246025

Sponge, you are right about not changing either one of our positions.

Also you are saying kctim when posting but it is actually KT.

I never said McCain was perfect with everything I want, but my opinion he is better then obama or clinton.

If you read all my post you see I believe in things that both majority agree/disagree with.

As far as voting the only wasted vote is the one not taken.

“Live long and prosper”

KT

Posted by: KT at February 21, 2008 5:56 PM
Comment #246026

Uh, Sponge, I am not a McCain supporter and will not be voting for him in the election. I have not decided who I will vote for, but I have decided who does not deserve my vote.

The Dem party, led by liberals, lost power because of corruption and their hard-lined positions on issues such as gun control. The more moderate of voters wanted a change from the corruption and their rights protected. Sound familiar?
Its a cycle and its your turn to be in power. You guys will abuse it again and then the sheep will give the Reps another chance. So on and so on.

Posted by: kctim at February 21, 2008 6:00 PM
Comment #246027

kctim-
Do you understand how presumptuous it is to say you know the distinctions better? It’s like trying to patiently explain to Seurat and Monet what impressionism is.

We’re not unaware of there being distinctions in our party. However, I don’t think you’ve got the fault lines correctly laid out. Worse, you’re looking from the outside in, and on top of that, doing it through the lens of the Right’s propaganda about Liberal’s values.

Look at Obama’s wins, his campaign, and his politics, and you’ll see that the new Democratic movement isn’t necessary leftist, nor is it necessarily elites vs. peasants, as some like to characterize it. The real distinction is one between a Democratic party establishment that is cautious, which steps carefully around Republicans and President Bush and an up-and-coming movement within the party that is much more activist of the party’s politics.

The Democratic party of thirty years ago, and the Republican party of now have much in common: a base fractured by internal conflict, by mishandled domestic and foreign policies. The fear of fracture and insurgency within the party created a very risk-averse organization. Meanwhile, the Republicans jumped into pushing their politics with both feet, giving their politics a more appealling gloss, with more committed, effective proselytizers in their corner.

Unfortunately, their politics were not so attractive as they thought, once you got past the PR. This helps to explain how the Democrats maintained congressional power into the Clinton years, and the White House through most of the 90’s.

The Party had to heal from the ordeal of the sixties, really. Racial parity had to become a fact of life, with children raised who had never known segregation as a fact of their lives. The loosening of sexual mores had to reach its pinnacle and then be moderated.

And the mystique of the Republican party had to be destroyed. Enter George Bush and the Republican Congresss. His doctrinaire, politically lead coalition of interests groups did everything to get their way, and in the process caused difficult to deny damage to the interests of the average American. The party, as it turned out, had ideas, but it’s ideas were either terrible or terribly carried out.

The Democrats are more or less arguing about whether the approach is going to be Clintonian moderation, or Obama-Style activism. People seem to prefer his activism. People want things done.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at February 21, 2008 6:25 PM
Comment #246028

After wading thru most of the posts above I am really disappointed that no one understands why some of us are upset with Mrs. Obama. When I speak of America I am thinking of her people, all 300 million of us. America isn’t just the current party occupying the white house or majority of seats in congress. I think of all the sacrifices Americans have made to help other Americans and non-Americans. I think of all the great inventions created here by free people in a free society. I think of all the wonderful pharmaceuticals developed in America that help alleviate pain and suffering the world over. I think of all the aid given gladly by Americans where ever a catastrophic event occurs in the world. America is always among the first to send aid and comfort. I think of the millions of foreigners who came to this country legally and were welcomed. I think of all the great churches, synagogues, and temples in the country sharing God’s love and the charity that pours forth from them to help Americans who need a hand. Some can not find anything good about America the nation, do you feel the same way about Americans? Please tell me the difference. Is not America us? Is America, the nation, only the government? No, it’s every one of us, poor and rich, liberal and democrat, white and black. Feeling pride in America, the nation, is feeling pride in her people.

Posted by: Jim M at February 21, 2008 6:28 PM
Comment #246034

kctim “Are you saying the wealthy do not live a life of luxury and still ask why nobody helps the poor? Come on.”

Well kctim now you are generalizing on the rich before it was the rich liberals. Im sure some are exactly as you say while IM sure others are not. However when you consider what some one like Bill Gates does I wouldnt consider that sitting around.

Posted by: j2t2 at February 21, 2008 7:55 PM
Comment #246037

Jim M said “After wading thru most of the posts above I am really disappointed that no one understands why some of us are upset with Mrs. Obama.”
Jim M it seems you do not understand why some of us are upset that Jack and others would take such cheap shots on Mrs. Obama. FAUX news has started their persecution of her over what at most could be considered a mis-spoken statement. The vicious attacks from the right should give you concern as well. They are using her for political gain.
She was referring directly to the unprecedented numbers of people turming out for the primaries which I suspect is more than in her adult liftime. Those listening to the speesch understood what she was saying yet that just not good enough for the extremist on the right.
What I dont understand is why you are not upset at those that would distort her words for gain on the airwaves and in the political areana.

Posted by: j2t2 at February 21, 2008 8:06 PM
Comment #246038

KT and kctim, please accept my humblest apologies for confusing the two of you. What an idiot I am.

I now return you to my previously promised silence on this thread.

Posted by: spongeworthy at February 21, 2008 8:51 PM
Comment #246047
Steve K wrote: First listen to this video (blog.thehill.com/2008/02/19/michelle-obamas-proud-comment/)

Then listen to this one (gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2008/02/oops-she-did-it-again-michelle-obamas.html)

In the first video you do not hear the word “really”, though you can almost it hear it, as if it was cut out.

You are right.
The word “really” was cut out.
So you can’t believe everything you see or hear.
Lots of dirty tricks going on out there.
I agree. The word “really” add meaning.

Steve K wrote:And No I don’t think she owes an apology or a clarification.

Thank you very much for point this out!

Posted by: d.a.n at February 21, 2008 10:42 PM
Comment #246057

From the time I was able to understand pride in country I have been proud of the United States. This is and has been sense it’s birth the greatest country ever.
But I haven’t always been proud of some of it’s actions. There have been times when I’ve wondered just what the hell it thought it was up to.
Hopefully this is what Mrs. Obama was referring to. But some how I doubt it.
And yes Jack, things could be better. Of course there’s a lot to be proud of and that’s right with the US. But there are things we need to improve on. And things that just flat need to be stopped.
The United States is my country right or wrong. I’ll defend her when she’s right. And have, And I’ll defend her when she’s wrong. And have. But I’ll also at the same time be doing what I can to correct that wrong .

Posted by: Ron Brown at February 22, 2008 12:20 AM
Comment #246058

Woody

There is no conflict between living a charmed life and working hard for it. In fact, they usually go together. Hard work brings success and it helps being smart. Hard working, smart people almost always are successful in America. That is something I am proud of re our country.

Sponge

I could make the list of my top ten. I wont be doing it complete justice but let me go through the exercise. I am setting my stop watch for two minutes, so as fast as I can type you will get ten. I just want to show how easy it is.

Restructuring of U.S. economy in face of oil shocks and foreign competition (1980s)
Welfare reform
Openness of U.S.
Generosity (during tsunamis an earthquakes)
Entrepreneurial spirit (Internet, alternative fuels)
Resilience after 9/11
Millennium challenge & PEPFAR
Opportunity for all (Obama is good example)
Stable political system
Ronald Reagan

It only took me 1:30 (although I had to go back an clear up typos). Not so hard. The Obamas can use my list if they are in need of one. They are all from Obama’s adult life.

Re Dems – I think you are talking to someone else re.

Steve K

See above to Woody. Like everybody else, I tend to fall back on my own experience. I grew up working class. Somebody like Obama’s parents with two incomes and two steady jobs, as well as her father being a ward boss (a really big deal in Chicago) would have been the most prosperous people in my neighborhood. She grew up in a normal American life. A normal American life is charmed (one of the things I am proud of). And she has been very successful now and is in the upper income groups. Good – BTW. This is what America means. A working class African-American girl can grow up to be rich, well educated and have the chance to live in the White House.


Russ

There are two sorts of worthless measurements. One lets everything pass; the other is so strict nothing is good enough. Liberals tend to apply the latter to their country. It is simply absurd for anybody to say that this is the first time he/she is proud (even if we add the modifier “really”) of her country.

David

I really don’t understand. The Obamas are very successful. They obviously both had and took advantage of the opportunities available to Americans. It is a good thing. I am proud of Americans like Obama and glad that America gives them opportunities.

She had the advantage of living in the U.S. If she thinks she achieved all she did in SPITE of her country, she is not as smart as she seems. I have confidence that she IS smart and understands and that is why she should be careful with those silly comments.

J2t2

The didn’t explain it. She merely obfuscated and explained AGAIN that she is proud of the way people come together.

Posted by: Jack at February 22, 2008 12:21 AM
Comment #246065

Republicans have made getting upset with Democrats over perceived slights towards their country, over even just admissions that America has fallen short of its promise an artform.

Take the time Dick Durbin, senior Senator from Obama’s home state. He was made to apologize for saying that the treatment of prisoners at Gitmo, that reading the reports about “enhanced interrogation,” read like things we would expect from the Nazis or the Khmer Rouge torture chambers. And he did. The “political reality” was that you couldn’t even allege that our soldiers were associated with any such thing.

Lo and behold, what does Andrew Sullivan discover with a little research? That the Nazis used many of the same techniques under the same names against the same sort of people, with the same sort of ugly results.

Now we have two kinds of patriotism at work here. Both no doubt spring from love, but one kind springs from a misguided form of that love, while the other springs from a more virtuous expression of it. We can compare it to child-rearing: sometimes when parents are confronted with wrongdoing by their child, they reflexively deny and/or rationalize the wrongdoing on behalf of the child, which of course only encourages the kid to do more of the same.

The other way I speak about is not the opposite of this, for the opposite is no better, an error as well. No, the other way I speak about is to ascertain the truth as well as you can, and then set standards, admonishing, punishing the child if necessary, but without treating the child as if they were inherently corrupt.

America and Americans don’t need to be held in contempt on each and every front, blamed first for the world’s troubles, but we do need to stop using our love of our country as a reason to be oblivious to where America really has fallen short. That can only make us as much an international discipline problem as the Child the parent always apologizes for.

No, America has to represent a standard, a higher standard we don’t apply just to others, but ourselves as well. If we can’t lead by example, how do we really lead? Those looking to follow in our footsteps will do as we do instead of doing as we say, and American power will have that taint upon it when folks try and figure out whether to cooperate with us.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at February 22, 2008 12:49 AM
Comment #246074

>Restructuring of U.S. economy in face of oil shocks and foreign competition (1980s)
>Welfare reform
>Openness of U.S.
>Generosity (during tsunamis an earthquakes)
>Entrepreneurial spirit (Internet, alternative fuels)
>Resilience after 9/11
>Millennium challenge & PEPFAR
>Opportunity for all (Obama is good example)
>Stable political system
>Ronald Reagan

Why would you be proud of any of these things? Let’s go through the list:

1. Did you personally have anything to do with this? If so what part and how did you have anything to do with it? It seems pretty ridiculous to be proud of this when in fact very little has changed in our use of oil, except we are more dependent and less secure today than we were 20 to 30 years ago. We’re forced to position troops and fight wars to protect petroleum assets because we are so addicted to oil. As for foreign competition, they’re eating our lunch year after year. The only thing halfway keeping our head above water on this point is China and Japan buying our bonds.

2. Again, what did you personally have to do with welfare reform for which you personally can be proud? Shouldn’t the people who did the reform be the ones to be proud and to be proud of, rather than the entire country? This is one of many ideological things you’re proud of and I’m not going to argue the politics other than to disagree with you on this being something to be proud of. I agree welfare reform was needed but the way it has handled is nothing to be proud of.

3. Openness? How do you mean open? The porous borders? The US is a highly class-segregated society and there is very little openness. Or are you talking about the openness of the government, which was never something to brag about but has become orders of magnitude worse since Cheney arrived…

4. While it is true that some Americans are very generous for some causes, I wouldn’t rate this as something to be proud of. ISTR reading something about Americans being 10th or lower in generosity as a measured by percentage of per-capita income. Sure we give a lot, but we have a lot.

5. I’ll give you this one.

6. You stole this one from Michelle Malkin, word for word. And I say the citizens of the communities directly impacted by the events 9/11 are people to be proud of but this is not something to be proud about our nation as a whole.

7. I’ll call you on this one. You have no reason to feel proud of this country about this item. Yes, 10s of thousands of IT geeks such as myself and my peers labored long and hard to ensure that when 2000 arrived, things would continue to work smoothly. What was our reward? The outsourcing of 100s of thousands of IT jobs to foreign countries in the interest of saving money. Again, those of us who were actually involved in it deserve to be proud of how little impact Y2K had, nbut you have no right to feel proud of the US about it.

8. Obama would be a good example except he has led a relatively privileged existence. I might almost have agreed with you on this but for the income gap which separates those who do have “opportunity for all” and the very poor who have virtually no opportunity. Again, nothing to be proud of. On the other hand if every person who wanted to attend a 4-year college and had the knowledge to do so, could do so, I would agree this is something to be proud of.

9. This is an example of what I would call a good thing which is really nothing for the US to be proud of. The Greeks justifiably are and should be proud of the political system they invented and we have put to good use.

10. Give me a break. What did you have to do with anything Ronald Reagan did in his lifetime? If nothing, other than maybe voting for the twit, what does this nation have to be proud of this guy. I know, I know, you’re going to say he single-handedly brought down communism in Europe. Nice try. A lot of people, myself included, consider this guy to be highly overrated and certainly not something about this nation to be proud of.

Here’s the list I thought you might come up with:

1. The paradise on earth our nation created in Iraq and Afghanistan at the cost of only trillions of taxpayer dollars and deficits
2. Rush Limbaugh
3. Tom Delay
4. The impeachment of the Slickster
5. The national debt
6. The solution to the social security crisis discovered, designed and implemented by the Bush administration
7. The rapid, professional, compassionate conservative response to hurricane Katrina
8. The massive stratification of US society according to wealth
9. The rapid, professional job of tightening the nation’s borders in response to elevated terror threat
10. The bridge to nowhere in Alaska

Seems like I was pretty close to what you came up with…

Posted by: spongeworthy at February 22, 2008 8:51 AM
Comment #246079

Stephen
I am not claiming to know better than you. I am only pointing out that there is a difference and that it does affect voting.
If I am not looking at it right, then you guys have nothing to worry about and can push a liberal agenda onto the nation and it will be gladly accepted by everyone but me.

You do know that I am looking at it from the “outside in” because it has changed, right? I have a pretty good idea of liberal values and I got it from seeing them in action, not from some propaganda mill.

I’m not arguing or claiming one side is better Stephen, just giving my opinion. The Dem party has moved further left than many of us like. If you don’t care about or need our votes, then keep going as you are and represent those who are the same as you. Its not like it would be anything new to us anyway.

Posted by: kctim at February 22, 2008 9:22 AM
Comment #246081

“Well kctim now you are generalizing on the rich before it was the rich liberals”

No J2, I just forgot to type it really, sorry about that.
I do not know anything about Gates politics. But if he says we should do everything we can in order to support his pet issue, then he better do everything he can to support it.

Posted by: kctim at February 22, 2008 9:42 AM
Comment #246087

Jack, kctim, and all you other right-wing bloggers
Jack — you responded to me with:
There are two sorts of worthless measurements. One lets everything pass; the other is so strict nothing is good enough. Liberals tend to apply the latter to their country. It is simply absurd for anybody to say that this is the first time he/she is proud (even if we add the modifier “really”) of her country.

I really don’t know what we on the left would do without you telling us what our values are, what we stand for, and how we live and what we believe in.

You are full of so much BS it is absurd

You are so busy fighting generalizations and sterotypes, it is no wonder you are now losing the battle — because the American people are seeing the reality vs your “straw-man” BS

Everytime one of you starts making statements about “liberals call for, don’t believe in, would make ….” whatever you only reveal your own ignorance and lack of reason.

Posted by: Russ at February 22, 2008 10:24 AM
Comment #246088

God Kctim — what arrogance!!


I do not know anything about Gates politics. But if he says we should do everything we can in order to support his pet issue, then he better do everything he can to support it.

Posted by: kctim at February 22, 2008 09:42 AM

Who the heck are YOU to be saying what others ought to be doing????
Or to judge whether or not their actions live up to their words.
I have a feeling that they are closer to walking their talk than you are.

I am sure that Gates, Buffet and Carter are up nights worrying that they might not garner your approval, and somehow their “petty efforts” do not come up to YOUR standards.

Posted by: Russ at February 22, 2008 10:35 AM
Comment #246089

PS
Again — the right side is good at making straw arguements to fight against
as an example is the quote from Kctim in my previous post

I do not know anything about Gates politics. But if he says we should do everything we can in order to support his pet issue, then he better do everything he can to support it.

Posted by: kctim at February 22, 2008 09:42 AM

“if he says we should do everything we can for his pet…”
and previously Kctim’s rants about words and actions rails against people who “ask to do everything” etc.


So you are able to avoid being a hypocrite yourself cause you are railing only against those who “DEMAND OTHERS TO DO EVERYTHING THEY CAN FOR THEIR PET PROJECT”
Well that sure limits who you are talking about.
to none
Once again, straw arguements about made-up generalizations and BS.

Posted by: Russ at February 22, 2008 10:46 AM
Comment #246093

Easy Russ.

“Who the heck are YOU to be saying what others ought to be doing????”

Who are they to say what I ought to be doing? I really don’t care what they do to be honest. But if they are saying I should be taxed to support something they “say” is important, then they should be expected to do their all also.

“Well that sure limits who you are talking about. to none”

Really? And this is coming from the side who criticizes the people from the “right” who get caught in Airport bathroom stalls or with whores, for not practicing what they preach?
Interesting.

I have made up no generalizations. One can easily go and see where politicians stand on the issues.

Posted by: kctim at February 22, 2008 11:16 AM
Comment #246095

Spongeworthy, your response to Jack seemed to me to be very shortsighted. Isn’t America “We The People”? Are not those nameless and faceless American’s who never achieve any recognition of their contributions to our society just as valuable and worthy of praise as the American who achieves fame and success? Are we not all part of the “team”? Does every one of us have to have our 15 minutes of fame to justify being proud of our collective accomplishments? I am proud of our country for the achievements of its individual and collective members.

Posted by: Jim M at February 22, 2008 11:21 AM
Comment #246103

Kctim
your statement was re: a certain Mr. Gates
Mr. Gates is not after anybody else to fund what he is doing
He has used his own wealth to fund the Gates Foundation that then goes out and supports various organizations that are addressing various problems in the world — he ain’t asking for a handout.
And all those “wealthy” fat cat liberals you keep harping about — most of them have spent more time and money supporting their issues than trying to get the gov’t to do it.

The only Rich Fat Cats I know that keep trying to feed off the public trough are the groups that are normally aligned with the right side of the aisle. Oil and Gas subsidies and cut-rate leases on public lands — exemptions from environmental oversights — Corporate Agriculture subsidies
Why do you point the finger at “people who want ME to pay for THEIR pet project” (and the discussion has been around various “liberal” types of issues)??
When in reality
The Bush Administration and the Republican Congress has done more to empty your pockets for the rich than any person you feel is not “pulling their weight”
And you have the audacity to bring up the legitimate issue with a self-rightous Senator who has supported and passed various legislation that discriminates against Gay people and then shows himself to be gay??
Apples and organges dude.

Posted by: Russ at February 22, 2008 2:04 PM
Comment #246108

Russ, we disagree, no problem.
I just believe that a person should do all that they can in order to support what they “say” is the right thing to do. Paying it lip service makes you look good, but doesn’t help the problem at all.

Apples and oranges? What about a self-rightous Senator who supports and passes legislation to tax the people even more, in order to “help” the homeless and does this while having numerous million dollar estates of his own? Why not sell all of those, buy a modest home and use the profits to actually support what you “say” is the right thing to do?
BS.

You guys expect your govt to take care of everything, why don’t you at least expect your own to do all they can to help?

Posted by: kctim at February 22, 2008 2:40 PM
Comment #246135

Jim M>Spongeworthy, your response to Jack seemed to me to be very shortsighted. Isn’t America “We The People”?

Well, I don’t know what you’re getting at by calling it short-sighted but you’re right that America was “We the People” until the Reps/cons changed that motto to “Every man, woman and child for him or herself”, which I think was about the time that the pre-eminent Rep/con idol, Reagan, became prez.

It’s kind of hard to know exactly what you’re talking about in that gigantic response to Jack. Could you be more specific?

Jim M >Are not those nameless and faceless American’s who never achieve any recognition of
Jim M >their contributions to our society just as valuable and worthy of praise as the American who
Jim M >achieves fame and success?

Cite where I wrote anything to the contrary. All I’m saying is he, Jack, tries to call Michelle Obama on the carpet about not being able to name 10 things to be proud of this country about. My point is that quite frankly with the exception of maybe one item, Jack’s list was garbage. So, in other words maybe it’s not as easy as Jack makes it out to be. Which is typical Jack, you know - nothing is difficult if he doesn’t have to do it.

Jim M >Are we not all part of the “team”?

Yeah, we used to all be part of the team until the Reps/cons changed that motto to “Every man, woman and child for him or herself”, which I think was about the time that the pre-eminent Rep/con idol, Reagan, became prez.

Jim M>Does every one of us have to have our 15 minutes of fame to justify being proud of our
Jim M >collective accomplishments?

I guess I don’t remember typing that or anything remotely like it. Please cite me and I’ll respond.

>I am proud of our country for the achievements of its individual and collective members.

Well, again, let’s analyze that: why are you proud of the achievements of people you don’t know and who don’t know you? I just do not understand how someone would feel pride over something like that.

By the same token, if you’re (as you say) “proud of our country for the achievements of its individual and collective members”, and these are people who you do not know and do not know you, why wouldn’t you be proud of the accomplishments of people in, let’s say Myanmar?

Does it really make that much difference that one person lives somewhere in the US and someone else lives in another country but your proud of one and not the other? Explain why that makes a lick of sense.

Posted by: spongeworthy at February 22, 2008 5:42 PM
Comment #246140

“Well, again, let’s analyze that: why are you proud of the achievements of people you don’t know and who don’t know you? I just do not understand how someone would feel pride over something like that.” Posted by: spongeworthy at February 22, 2008 05:42 PM

When a person I don’t know contributes to the common good by raising a family, working to feed that family, obeying our laws, and doing something useful in his/her life that enriches us all by that effort and I am proud of them. I am proud to call that person not only an American, but my friend. I am proud of the person who installed the brakes on my car that help keep me safe. I am proud of the lab tech who peers thru a microscope to diagnose disease. I am proud of the teacher, policeman, fireman, etc. who works to better the lives of us all.

Share with us something in your life you are proud of and even as a stranger, I may also be proud of your accomplishment as a fellow human being. Should I not be proud of the person who saves a life even if I don’t know them? Should I not be proud of the thousands of our military who face danger each day simply because I don’t know their names and faces?

I didn’t know MLK, Abe Lincoln, G. Washington and many others but I am proud of their contribution to my life today. And, hopefully, someone who doesn’t know me will be proud of how I have lived my life because I may have, in some unknowing way, helped them.

To put it simply, it’s called love for my fellow man.

Posted by: Jim M at February 22, 2008 6:28 PM
Comment #246145

Jim M>I am proud to call that person not only an American, but my friend.

Jim, I think the problem we’re having here is a difference in definitions of commonly used words like “proud” and “friend”. To me, by definition, there is no possible way to be a friend with someone who I don’t know at a somewhat personal level, including having met them. When I communicate like this with people on the Internet, unless it’s someone I have met in person already, we’re not going to be friends. Acquaintances, yes. Confidantes, maybe. But what you seem to be saying is way beyond that in that you (apparently) might hear about a person in another state, way across the country from you and without you meeting them and without them even having the slightest inkling that you even exist, you call them friend. That is a wild stretch of the terminology “friend”.

Likewise with “proud”. How can you say you’re proud of someone you’ve never met, who’s never met you and who you just read about in the paper, the only thing you have in common is you live in the same nation? To some extent, one has to have an emotional bond with someone to be proud of them. How do you form an emotional bond with when you don’t know each other?

Jim M>I am proud of the person who installed the brakes on my car that help keep me safe.

No, that’s not being proud, that’s being grateful or thankful.

Jim M>I am proud of the lab tech who peers thru a microscope to diagnose disease. I am proud of the
Jim M>teacher, policeman, fireman, etc. who works to better the lives of us all.

No, that’s not being proud, that’s being grateful or thankful.

Jim M >I didn’t know MLK, Abe Lincoln, G. Washington and many others but I am proud of their
Jim M >contribution to my life today.

Explain that. How are you proud? Why are you proud? You have no preceding emotional bond with any of these people because you don’t know them and they don’t know you. I think you are again confusing grateful/thankful with proud.

Jim M>To put it simply, it’s called love for my fellow man.

BARF

Posted by: spongeworthy at February 22, 2008 8:00 PM
Comment #246157

j2t2 said “Well kctim now you are generalizing on the rich before it was the rich liberals””

kctim said “No J2, I just forgot to type it really, sorry about that.”

j2t2 said “Do you hold the rich libertarians and conservatives to this same level of commitment?”

kctim said “Yes J2, I do. I hold everybody to that same level.” jeez kctim then why is it you fail to mention anyone but the rich liberals when you spout the ill informed BS you have been spreading on this thread. Seems you are saying one thing and propagandizing the other.

Posted by: j2t2 at February 22, 2008 11:36 PM
Comment #246199

Final note to Spongeworthy, a few snyonyms for Proud include; pleased, satisfied, full of pride, fulfilled and uplifting.

Spongeworthy snyonyms; dark, suspicious, doubting, self-centered, unappreciative and unloved.

Posted by: Jim M at February 23, 2008 2:11 PM
Comment #246526

Jack,
I almost missed this comment. Fortunately I read about it on the other blog. It appears the semantics has gotten in the way on a least one occasion.

The fact that all THREE of these blogs, and many more like them exist. That we can each speak and write what we believe, and not be arrested. many times we have called each other a Traitor, but fortunately the label is untrue and everyone reading the label knows so.

I am proud to be an American because we can and do read (Freedom of the press)about the scandals (flaws, if you will) of our leaders, and can hopefully learn what we can and will tolerate.

I am proud of the legal system we have in place - yes I know it needs work, but everything does.

I am proud of the men and women who have and continue to fight for the right for me to have these freedoms.

I am proud that as a nation we can honorably and decently work with those whom we disagree,(look at Thailand’s governing body)and that we all accept the change of government gracefully and work and
support without the fear of retribution. (see Pakistan)

These are just some of the reasons I am proud to be American.

Steve K
I agree with what you wrote - way back in the eariler part of the blog.

veritas vincit wrote:

Did Michelle Obama say:

“For the first time in my adult lifetime, I am proud of my country…”

No, what she said was:

“For the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country…”

Jack,
You don’t suppose maybe she might mean something as simple as being proud that in America her husband a BLACK man is likely to get the Democrat Nomination?


Posted by: Linda H. at February 27, 2008 12:11 AM
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