Illegal Immigration Alert

For those of us who thought we had convinced Congress that we should enforce the borders first the reintroduction of the so-called “Dream Act” is another attempt by the ruling elite to put us peons in our place.

I start with an unapologetically pro-dream act site. Look closely at the details. Entry and continued residency status become remarkably easy.
NILC.org
Malkin.com

Dick Durbin is the sponsor of this most recent attempt to circumvent the people's will. Essentially, this would-be amendment to a budget authorization for the military (no cynicism there) will allow any illegal immigrant to write him or her self a get-into-the-country-free card. All he or she need say is that he or she was brought into the country prior to his or her sixteenth birthday more than five years ago. There is no end date noted. From that point immigrants can't be deported until their case is adjudicated.

Keep an eye on this and contact your Senators.

Posted by Lee Emmerich Jamison at September 19, 2007 12:38 PM
Comments
Comment #233456

My apologies for jumping the gun on this post. I read the listed post time on the previous one and thought it had been posted last night. I gather we are on GMT, not Eastern time.

Posted by: Lee Jamison at September 19, 2007 12:57 PM
Comment #233469

This issue is both more simple and more complex than most Ameriocans are aware.

I have been trying with absolutely no luck, to get through to d.a.n. on the last thread regarding immigration, Jack’s piece entitled “misplaced compassion.” it is in the archives at this point.

Please just refer to that thread.
d.a.n. is so stubbornly adhering to an already demonstrably irrelevent argument that I have become tired of posting on this topic.

Posted by: RGF at September 19, 2007 2:38 PM
Comment #233470

You can check to see if your Senators are in need of contact on this issue at this NumbersUSA link. They also give you the phone # to call your senator and a fax you can send.

Posted by: David R. Remer at September 19, 2007 2:46 PM
Comment #233477

David,

Thanks for that. Sending the fax was, in fact easy.
The Dream Act amendment is styled as S.A.2237 for those wishing to phone their representatives (preemptively) and senators.

Posted by: Lee Jamison at September 19, 2007 3:19 PM
Comment #233480

Lee, sure thing. Way I see it, the Dream Act stands for Democrats dream of securing power for decades through overpopulation of our nation, based on evidence that 3/4 of all illegal and legal immigrants will vote Democrat.

Some Dream. Politicians at their worst, putting politics of power before the interests and needs of the nation and their constituents. This is why I was forced to become an Independent voter so many years ago.

Posted by: David R. Remer at September 19, 2007 3:42 PM
Comment #233482

Lee Emmerich Jamison,

Thanks!
Yes, I am watching it, writing, FAXing, and calling Congress persons.
By the way, for all that may not be aware of it, NumbersUSA.com provides free FAXing pre-written letters (which you can modify) to Congress persons. Another site to look at is ALIPAC.US (with 56 million page views).

RGF wrote: I have been trying with absolutely no luck, to get through to d.a.n. on the last thread regarding immigration, Jack’s piece entitled “misplaced compassion.” it is in the archives at this point. Please just refer to that thread. d.a.n. is so stubbornly adhering to an already demonstrably irrelevent argument that I have become tired of posting on this topic.

In the other thread, RGF wrote …

  • RGF wrote: d.a.n. Good grief you’re stubborn.
  • RGF wrote: You missed the boat enitirely, d.a.n.
  • RGF wrote: It is you who lack compassion for Americans.
  • RGF wrote: This is pointless. Your stubborn re-assurtions, without any thought to what am talking about, blah, blah, blah …
  • RGF wrote: I would bet my money that one Mexican could outwork any TEN Americans.
  • RGF wrote: The minutemen are allowing themselves to be fooled.
  • RGF wrote: THBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB!
  • RGF wrote: d.a.n. I’ve already won, you just won’t read it.
  • RGF wrote: Your facts are irrelevent under the circumstances and your logic…isn’t logical.
  • RGF wrote: You ARE missing the point, d.a.n.
  • RGF wrote: Try as I might, I just can’t get through that hard head of yours to help you to see.
  • RGF wrote: the minutemen are COMPLETELY UNAMERICAN.
  • RGF wrote: Groups like the minutemen are NOT patriots at all.
  • RGF wrote: d.a.n, Solving problems is not about false pride.
  • RGF wrote: d.a.n. You have got to be kidding!
  • RGF wrote: YOU JUST KEEP IGNORING REALITY
  • RGF wrote: The minutemen, apparently, are just a bunch of lazy irresponsible mother f***kers who don’t want America to own up to its responsibilities!

RGF, A more effective approach may be:

  • STEP(1)First, try to have an argument that can be substatiated with reason, logic, and supporting research.

  • STEP(2) Second, try not to resort to name-calling and profanity when frustrated by failing at STEP(1).

RGF wrote: d.a.n. is so stubbornly adhering to an already demonstrably irrelevent argument that I have become tired of posting on this topic.

RGF, Perhaps the obvious frustration exhibited above is because of a such a lame argument to start with?

Posted by: d.a.n at September 19, 2007 3:45 PM
Comment #233484

d.a.n. and RGF, please do not restate your former debate in the comments of this article. Please take it back to the article it originated in. Rehashing he said, he said, from another thread in another article lacks that thread’s context, and thus will not be very informative in this thread.

Thanks.

Posted by: Watchblog Managing Editor at September 19, 2007 3:54 PM
Comment #233486

*SHEESH*

I’ll try this again.

The reason we have an issue with immirants crossing our southern border, both documented and undocumented, is because there is a very great disparity between the standard of living in our two countries.

The reason there is such a disparity is largely because WE have manipulated THEIR economy by means of things like coups and a reprehensible document called the “bucarelli agreement.”

This agreement, still in force to this day, was forced down Mexico’s throat in exchange for the backing we gave to a rather nasty strongman who came to power by means of a bloody coup near the end of the Mexican revolution of the 1920’s (Pancho Villa and Emiliano Zapata’s war), named Victoriano Huerta.

The effect of this agreement, besides providing money and arms for a despot, was to force the closure of Mexican industries that competed directly with American industries selling products in Mexico. At the time, Mexico had a budding aerospace industry that was actually producing bi-planes more efficiently and cheaper than any American competitor could. All that was lost and shut down.

The more modern result is the American corporate affiliated maquiladoras along the border where some rather hideous practices are employed to achieve a stable (read: not willing to leave) workforce. They prefer to have women between the ages of 15 and 26 (they have smaller and more dextrous hands for assembling small parts) working for them. They also have a preference for single moms since they are not able to flee to better conditions elsewhere. They achieve this by having a ‘forman’ whose job it is to run around making sure the women at their homes near the factory are either already moms, or if necessary by hook or by crook, they become moms. Yes, that’s right. RAPE if necessary. Now, add to that, the added hardship of periodically locking the workforce up for days on end to achieve quota goals, and suddenly there is a wealth of small, ill-educated and desparately poor children growing up without school or parants and who have only two-ways out: to become criminals by getting involved in the drug trade or by escaping to the North…or, most unfortuneatly, somtimes by BOTH means.

Now, there is more to this issue. This is by one instance of the horror. Within our own borders, there are companies out there which give great gobs in campaign financing and which are also invested in the status quo. Companies like the largest homebuilder in this country who employ construction crews largely out of the undocumented and then, rather than paying them their final paychecks and promised bonuses for completetion of the neighborhoods they build, they call in an immigration raid and scare them all off. In the process of documenting this horror, I found this same strategy being employed all across the country, particularly in the mid-west. I interviewed Mexican workers in Mexico who had this experience multiple times in States such as Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas, Louisiana, Colorado etc. etc.

Now, let us consider the root causes of Immigration: The disparity between the standards of living between our two countries.

IF we build a wall, increase enforcement, tighten up the laws, what will be the result?
Well, the disparity will grow. Less undocumented dollars being wired back to Mexico will mean that the rising standard of living in Mexico happening right now (and the only true solution to this issue for BOTH our countries), will stumble or even stop altogether.

Mexico and Latin America are a presuure cooker both economically and politically. If the disparity increases enough, then no wall and no laws and no enforcement will stop the problem…which at that furture point, will actually be worse as a result.

It is exactly like the “War on Drugs.”
We increased our enforcement efforts and tightened up the laws. We poured an immense amount of money into fighting the war on drugs and the result was…what? Say it a little louder so we can all hear!
That’s right - MORE DRUG TRAFFIC
It’s very simple to understand why -
The increased enforcement caused the value of the ‘product’ to go up. The increased value caused the drug traffickers to take bigger and bigger risks and the result was a BIGGER problem.

Immigration is the same.
Even if we concede that such a wall, or increased enforcement, would actually accomplish all the goals desired by those who support it, the result still does not address the root cause -
the disparity in the standard of living between the two sides of the border.

There is hope however.
The Mexicans are solving this one for themselves and for us. The money going back across the border to families living there from workers over here is causing the standard of living to rise dramatically in Mexico. We must not stop this process. It is the very foundation of the notion of “Free Market” is it not?

Therefore, I support any amnesty that facilitates the continuation of this process.

Anything else only makes the problem worse.

Posted by: RGF at September 19, 2007 3:57 PM
Comment #233490

RGF,

I do, and always have, supported LEGAL immigration. Legal immigration is the product of the consent of the people as expressed through the law. When the people get wind of efforts like this one to go behind their backs vast majorities express their desire that the laws we currently have be enforced before we start changing laws to make things more equitable for either the poor of Mexico or the labor-strapped businesses of America (woops, the United States). A Congress with approval numbers of 11% or so, less than half those of the president, ought to listen to this.

For my part this issue is about two major things. First and foremost it is a rule-of-law issue. If the leaders of the country can ignore the law we are a nation of men and not of law. Secondly this is an intentional dilution of citizenship rights. Citizenship is not taught as a property right, but that is exactly what it is. We citizens are voting shareholders. When politicians encourage illegal immigration they are rewriting the deed to our title on those rights, diluting our voting share, and imposing additional responsibilities on which we have not had a chance to have our say.
If directors of a corporation attempted to do something like this to their shareholders they would go to prison.
There’s a thought.

Posted by: Lee Jamison at September 19, 2007 4:27 PM
Comment #233492

RGF said: “Immigration is the same.”

No! It is not the same. Sovereignty and protection and defense of our nation’s borders and integrity are Constitutionally mandated. And for monumentally important and life, and quality of life, sustaining reasons.

To equate prohibition of recreation with our nation’s sovereignty is about as bogus an argument I have ever heard, except for a few by Pres. Bush et.al. The fact that there is suffering in other nations is not excuse or rationale for turning America into an overpopulated China wannabe.

Nearly every major problem America has facing it today is rooted in, or compounded by, our population growth to nearly a third of a trillion people. There are limits to the carrying capacity of our nation’s resources, including law enforcement, government, economics, environment, and wealth distribution. We have already compromised that carrying capacity in every one of those areas.

And you want to argue for compounding these problems even more, in exchange for what? More democratic votes in next year’s elections. Sounds like Republican logic to me, power and politics first, nation and her people get a back seat.

I swear Democrats and Liberals are rapidly becoming as great a threat to our nation’s future and national security as Republicans have become. Can you not see you are sowing the seeds to a Republican comeback on this issue in very much the same way they sowed the seeds of the Democratic comeback in 2006?

Posted by: David R. Remer at September 19, 2007 4:28 PM
Comment #233493

It is because of the pressure cooker type situation in Mexico and Latin America that there is ABSOLUTELY NO RELEVENCE to any evidence whatsoever regarding How a wall or increased enforcement will work or even what kind of laws to pass or whether they include amnesty provisions.

No solution is even relevent unless it addresses the root cause. It is also unlikely that many Americans will support helping Mexico to improve it’s standards of living in its poorer areas unless and until more Americans understand our MORAL responsibility arising from our having helped to create and then profit from that very disparity.

Also, as long as the pressure is still building, the immigrants trying to get here will find a way. The pressure will rise to the point where it finally finds a leak and by then the pressure will be greater (READ: the problem will be bigger).

Hell, the Cubans and the Haitians are swimming here across the CARRIBEAN! …a feat that is as dangerous as all get out. Sharks, dehydration, drowning …just to name a few of the perils they face.

Those who imagine a wall will have an effect seem to think that Mexicans, desparate for a new way of life and the American Dream, are somehow no better than sheep or cattle. Yet, even sheep and cattle have been moving back and forth across that border for centuries … since Spanish colonial times when sheep and cattle were first brought here… and they only wanted better grazing!

Posted by: RGF at September 19, 2007 4:30 PM
Comment #233494

RGF,

Your argument puts compassion for the illegal aliens above all else. But as Jack wrote in the other thread, that is “Misplaced Compassion”.

Also, amnesty is not the solution.
Because Mexico is poorer is not an excuse.
Also, illegal aliens come from all over the world.
The problem is not just with Mexico.
The problem is illegal aliens and politicians and governments that refuse (for reasons of greed and selfishness) to enforce existing laws and secure the borders.
Because we are all immigrants is not an excuse.
Neither are these other common excuses.

However, illegal aliens are not the only victims of despicable politicians (in other countries too) that despicably pit American citizens and illegal aliens agasint each other.

The American citizens are well with their rights to demand that existing laws be enforced and borders be secured.

Now, I will say this: If the American people continue to foolishly reward irrsponsible incumbent politicians with 90% to 95% re-election (as they have since 1996), then I believe the Americans will get what they deserve, and have the government that they deserve.

Hopefully, Congress’ dismal 18% approval rating will translate into ousting of some of the despicable politicians that are effectively pitting the American citizens and illegal aliens against each other for:

  • (1) votes (i.e. mostly Democrat politicians)

  • (2) cheap labor (i.e. Republican and Democrat politicians)

The solution is:

  • (1) Stop repeatedly rewarding politicians that refuse to enforce existing laws and secure the borders; selling out American citizens for votes and profit for greedy illegal employers.

  • (2) Enforce existing laws.

  • (3) Secure the borders.

If Americans don’t do step one, then step (2) and step (3) will not occur, and I have no sympathy for the voters that allow this and other corruption and greed to continue. I can only assume that most Americans like the way things are (or don’t care) and that is why they repeatedly reward irresponsible incumbent politicians with 90% to 95% re-election rates. If so, RGF, you will have exactly what you want. Illegal aliens will continue to:

  • flood into our country by the millions

  • use our schools

  • use our healthcare systems

  • receive welfare (32% of illegal aliens receive welfare)

  • fill our prisons (29% of all incarcerated are illegal aliens)

  • take jobs

  • avoid taxation; half don’t pay income taxes

  • use our ERs

  • use our hospitals

  • use fraudulent doucments

  • commit crimes (estimates range 3.6 to 26 homicides per day); crimes that should have never occurred

  • burden our border patrol

  • vote in our elections

  • cost American tax payers $70 Billion to $338 Billion per year in NET losses

Posted by: d.a.n at September 19, 2007 4:32 PM
Comment #233496

Lee,

comment number 233490 is beatifully well said. You are right.

It is a very illuminating argument FOR allowing legal amnesty.

Posted by: RGF at September 19, 2007 4:36 PM
Comment #233498

d.a.n.

It isn’t about compassion. That is your addition and assumption.

It is about effectiveness and about MORAL RESPONSIBILITY.

Why is it so hard for you to see that?

I think I have been sufficiently clear on that. You simply wish to first imagine some aspect of the argument that you can then argue with. That’s called building a straw man, d.a.n.

ADDRESS the ROOT CAUSE, d.a.n.
What does anything you propose do with respect to the ROOT CAUSE of our immigration woes, even assuming that all that you propose were actually to WORK??!!

Posted by: RGF at September 19, 2007 4:42 PM
Comment #233499
RGF wrote: Yet, even sheep and cattle have been moving back and forth across that border for centuries
And a fence/border security will stop that too. I haven’t seen many cattle or sheep that can jump over a 15 foot fence. Besides, cattle and sheep aren’t abusing American tax payer services and programs, filling up our prisons, or driving on our highways with fake drivers’ licenses and no insurance.

As for the humanitartian argument, I see your point. That is why I would recommend that the U.S. be willing provide to illegal aliens pre-paid transportation to leave the U.S. The cost will be far outweighed by the current net losses caused by illegal immigration.

Posted by: d.a.n at September 19, 2007 4:46 PM
Comment #233500

oh and d.a.n.,

I DO NOT mean, by moral responsibility, that we should be be compassionate.

I mean that we should recognize that we
CAUSED THE PROBLEM.

Thus it is moraly unacceptable for us to be so selfish as to first profit from the situation and then shut the door to the obvious consequences of the disparity we profitted from.

Posted by: RGF at September 19, 2007 4:53 PM
Comment #233502

d.a.n.

FORGET the humanitarian argument for a minute. That is not my point.

Just think about how ineffective what you propose really is.

Imagine this:
What if ALL that you propose works exactly as you would want it to?

What do we have then?

GREATER DISPARITY of standards of living between our two countries.

That is why your solution will not work and all your evidence is irrelevent.

Posted by: RGF at September 19, 2007 4:58 PM
Comment #233504

RGF,

Is that your tounge in your cheek? Of course the humanitarian thing to do is not really just to throw the borders open. Though Democrats do love the way they can claim the numbers of (imported) poor keep growing as a percentage of the population (due to Illegal immigration)… What we really need to do is find ways to encourage Mexico to have a government that can establish a stable, efficient, honest society that take advantage of all its tremendous assets.

If you could switch countries tomorrow, give Mexico the United States and all its physical assets and give the citizens of the U.S. Mexico and all its assets, but have the governments go with the people, folks would be streaming south across the border in a decade.

That’s another reason I favor stemming the tide. We are financing the corruption of our southern neighbor with the money illegals send “home”. We support a system that can’t support its own weight.

Posted by: Lee Jamison at September 19, 2007 5:15 PM
Comment #233507
RGF wrote: d.a.n. What does anything you propose do with respect to the ROOT CAUSE of our immigration woes, even assuming that all that you propose were actually to WORK??!!

RGF, it can work. It appears to be starting to work now. Look at these current events …

  • Operation nets 28 illegal aliens in Chaparral
    Alamogordo Daily News
    By J.R. Oppenheim, Staff Photographer/Writer
    Article Launched: 09/12/2007 12:00:00 AM MDT
    In a joint operation between the Border Patrol and the Otero and Doña Ana County sheriff’s departments, 28 illegal aliens were identified Monday in the Chaparral area, Otero County sheriff’s department officials said Tuesday.
    The Otero County sheriff’s department participated in a “Stonegarden

  • Thursday, September 13, 2007: Suspected illegal aliens arrested
    MARQUETTE — Eleven suspected illegal aliens were arrested in Negaunee Township early Wednesday morning, following an investigation by several law enforcement agencies.

  • Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 2:00 am: Four people have been taken into custody and are expected in federal court this morning in connection with what the FBI alleges was a West Greenville prostitution ring that involved the exploitation of several illegal alien women.
    Four people were charged with “keeping, maintaining, controlling, supporting, employing, harboring illegal aliens for the purpose of prostitution,” according to an FBI affidavit.
    The alleged ring involved the prostitution of at least six women who entered the country illegally, according to the affidavit. It alleges that the ring was based from a residence at 52 Dorsey Blvd. off Easley Bridge Road and received women from the Charlotte area.

  • Sep 12 2007 11:54AM: (From Don May, KCJB) Minot, N.D. (AP) Four men in Minot suspected of being illegal aliens are being deported.
    Kevin Bauman with the Border Patrol in Grand Forks says the men will be sent to Minneapolis, where they will appear before an immigration judge.
    The four men were arrested yesterday after reports of a possible vehicle break-in. Police found they actually had locked their keys inside a car.

  • September 11, 2007: FRANKFORT — A bill to crack down on illegal aliens working and living in Kentucky is to be filed by State Representative Rick Nelson. The bill is to be considered by the 2008 Kentucky General Assembly. By giving local law enforcement the ability to enforce immigration laws and by increasing prosecution of businesses that hire illegal aliens, Nelson said his proposal will “significantly reduce” the number of undocumented workers in the state. He also said the bill will also cut down on the total number of illegal aliens in Kentucky by making it less desirable for undocumented workers to locate their families here. “Our schools, jails and tax system is being crushed under the weight of Kentucky’s illegal immigration crisis. The only way to solve the problem is to make it more difficult for undocumented workers to find employment in our state. That is what will happen under this tough piece of legislation,” stated Nelson.

  • 09/11/2007: Herndon immigration enforcement nets results - The Herndon Police Department said it has netted more than a dozen suspected illegal aliens in the first two months since it began participating in a federal immigration enforcement program. Town police have received Immigration and Customs Enforcement training through the 287(g) program, authorizing selected officers to enforce immigration laws. According to Herndon Police Chief Toussaint Summers, for the months of June and July - reportedly the first full months of 287(g) participation - 13 out of 19 contacts made in accordance with the program resulted in detained individuals being turned over to the Fairfax County Adult Detention Center. Those suspected illegal aliens will eventually be processed through the federal court system for possible deportation.

  • Sep 10, 2007 07:07 AM CDT : Illegal Aliens Nabbed in Local Traffic Stop - A traffic stop leads to the arrest of ten illegal aliens. It happened Sunday on a Livingston County highway. A state police trooper stopped a van for having tinted windows. When none of the people inside could speak English, the trooper began to investigate. He found that all ten people are illegal aliens from Mexico and Guatemala. All of those people have been arrested and are in the Livingston County Jail.
  • But, if voters don’t stay vigilant, and continue to repeatedly reward bought-and-paid-for politicians with perpetual re-election, then politicians will continue to sell-out and stab Americans in the back (for votes and profits for greedy illegal employers and corporations). If so, RGF, you’ll have your way. Of course, there will be even more (much more) societal chaos, crime, and economic instability.

    RGF wrote: oh and d.a.n., I DO NOT mean, by moral responsibility, that we should be be compassionate. I mean that we should recognize that we CAUSED THE PROBLEM.
    We are no more guilty of that than the other nations. Want to talk about corruption? Mexico encourages illegal immigration too, because it brings money back to Mexico. Also, Mexico (as a nation) is not that poor relative to many other nations. The moral thing to do is secure the borders and enforce the laws (on both sides of the border). Again, the issue is not just with Mexioco. Half of all illegal aliens come from other places around the world.
    RGF wrote: Thus it is moraly unacceptable for us to be so selfish as to first profit from the situation and then shut the door to the obvious consequences of the disparity we profitted from.
    Again, there’s plenty of blame to go around. So that argument doesn’t carry much weight. If anything, it is all the more reason to secure the borders and enforce existing laws.

    By the way, what do the do to an illegal immigrant in Mexico?

    RGF wrote: d.a.n. FORGET the humanitarian argument for a minute. That is not my point. Just think about how ineffective what you propose really is. Imagine this: What if ALL that you propose works exactly as you would want it to? What do we have then? GREATER DISPARITY of standards of living between our two countries.
    Not true. It will stop the greedy illegal employers, and stop the $70 Billion in net losses to U.S. taxpayers.

    To be quite honest, I’m not as concerned about illegal aliens as I am for fellow Americans.
    But that will change soon if voters continue to blindly pull the party-lever a repeatedly reward and re-elect the very same politicians that despicably pit American citizens and illegal aliens against each other. Then I will forget this issue, and several others and surmise that American voters have the government that they deserve.

    RGF wrote: That is why your solution will not work and all your evidence is irrelevent.
    Sure it is relavent.

    It’s a good solution.

    If it were not, then why does it upset you and other pro-immigrationists so much?

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 19, 2007 5:32 PM
    Comment #233520

    *good grief*

    d.a.n.,

    Believe it or not, I’m not a pro-immigrationist.

    To me, thatis not the important issue.

    Your solution will actually make the problem worse.

    I just want to this issue achieve a status of being better understood around the country.

    There is NOTHING that we can do without first understanding the problem.

    You fail to understand the problem. Seemingly, by your posts, you don’t even want to try.

    Your whole effort is put into what we are ‘out’ as Americans…and even that is flawed because you make a constant stream of erroneous assumptions!

    For instance -
    that shot you took about the undocumented aliens in this country driving on our roads and not having insurence!

    Of all the clients I have had who drove and/or owned cars or had drivers licenses, NOT ONE ever had a false or fake driver’s license and while they tended to buy more cars than the average American whenever they could, they have ALL had insurence!

    You start with the position of making erroneous assumptions and then you back it with evidence and numbers that don’t take all things into account which is why you were unable to refute -

    http://www.nmvoices.org/attachments/immigrant_tax_report.pdf

    …except to throw out the accusation that it must be “biased.”

    NOTHING you have offered even considers the whole picture. NOT even if we were assume it was all as true and accurate as YOU believe it to be.

    That is why your solution will only contribute to the problem and all your evidence is irrelevent.

    Posted by: RGF at September 19, 2007 6:38 PM
    Comment #233523

    Lee,

    The money streaming south is actually bringing about greater stability and greater a standard of living there.

    The horrible corruption of the past is fading.
    Much of it, if not all of it, was fostered by us anyway. That is even more true closer to the modern era than it was in the past.

    I will disagree with you because you are missing another salient fact: There are an increasing number of Americans, non-hispanic Americans from the U.S. who are streaming SOUTH to live out their retirement in the Yucatan, Guanajuato, Baja California, etc. etc. They aren’t going because they think the system of laws is better HERE. There are places in central Mexico, not even along the coasts, where %10 to %15 of the populace are “gringos.”

    Strangely enough, when you talk to them you find that one of the things they like most about being there is the cost of HEALTH CARE.

    Posted by: RGF at September 19, 2007 6:50 PM
    Comment #233528
    RGF wrote: *good grief*
    Frustrating, eh?
    RGF wrote: d.a.n., Believe it or not, I’m not a pro-immigrationist.
    No. But you told me that you do tax forms for illegal aliens at the border. That behavior sounds pretty darn sympathetic to illegal aliens to me. Maybe even illegal.
    RGF wrote: To me, thatis not the important issue. Your solution will actually make the problem worse.
    I doubt that. Why? Reasons? Not just unsubstantiated conclusions.
    RGF wrote: I just want to this issue achieve a status of being better understood around the country.
    I understand it quite well. I know our politicians are corrupt and crooked. I know greedy employers are allowed by government to violate the law. But there is lots of corruption and greed on both sides of the border. I don’t see either side as less guilty. That does not justify allowing it to continue. That does not justify the many excuses used.
    RGF wrote: There is NOTHING that we can do without first understanding the problem.
    The problem is very well understood. The solution is simple, but elusive. I am not really very confident that American voters will do much of anything for secure the borders and force politicians to enforce the laws. Not even though Congress gets a dismal 18% approval rating. Therefore, you are most likley to get what you want. Illegal aliens will continue to do as they please. By the time Americans really feel the painful consequences, it will be too late, and they will only have themselves to thank for it.
    RGF wrote: You fail to understand the problem. Seemingly, by your posts, you don’t even want to try.
    Not true. I understand everything said here. I just don’t agree with your position and the “misplaced compassion” or calling the miniutemen the nasty names (see above). Disagreement does NOT equal misunderstanding.
    RGF wrote: Your whole effort is put into what we are ‘out’ as Americans…and even that is flawed because you make a constant stream of erroneous assumptions!
    Not true. Feel free to provide contradictory evidence.
    RGF wrote: For instance - that shot you took about the undocumented aliens in this country driving on our roads and not having insurence!
    Illegal aliens are driving with out ANY drivers’ licenses or with NO drivers’ licenses. And few (if any) have auto insurance. For one thing, that requires a drivers’ license and a Social Security number in most states.
    RGF wrote: Of all the clients I have had who drove and/or owned cars or had drivers licenses, NOT ONE ever had a false or fake driver’s license and while they tended to buy more cars than the average American whenever they could, they have ALL had insurence!
    Illegal aliens have auto insurance? Can you prove that? Got some numbers? Because that requires a drivers’ license and a Social Security number in most states.
    RGF wrote: You start with the position of making erroneous assumptions and then you back it with evidence and numbers that don’t take all things into account which is why you were unable to refute - www.nmvoices.org/attachments/immigrant_tax_report

    The lonely article you refer to does not address all issues. It fails to point out that only about half of all illegal aliens pay income taxes. It fails to point out the costs of dozens of things. Include everything (instead of cleverly omitting so many things), and it is clear that illegal aliens are a burden costing American tax payers over $70 Billion annually in net losses.

    RGF, The article you provided is clearly biased, and even it shows it to be a wash based on their numbers.

    Unfortunately, that study (which is far outnumbered by many more credible sources and organizations to the contrary) failed miserably to include the cost many other things producing a $70 billion to $338 Billion in net losses to American tax payers:

    • crime

    • burden on education systems;

    • burden on healthcare systems;

    • burden on hospital systems; 84 hospitals closed/closing in California;

    • burden on welfare systems; over 32% of illegal aliens collect welfare

    • burden on Medicaid system;

    • burden on border patrol systems; ever increasing numbers are needed;

    • burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;

    • burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;

    • burden on prison systems; 29% of state and federal prisoners (Sep-2004) are illegal aliens;

    • 2.3 million displaced American workers; partly because half of all illegal aliens that don’t pay taxes, and greedy employers that don’t pay unemployment taxes, Social Security, Medicare taxes, etc.;

    • voter fraud; burden on voting systems;

    That Fiscal Project Project article failed miserably to address all of those issues above.
    Instead, it cleverly cherry picked the data and ignored all the other issues.
    It has no credibility. For every article like that, I can show you 100 more to refute it from much more credible sources and organizations.
    Voters are starting to wise up to it too.
    That’s why the SHAMNESTY BILL was defeated.
    Voters are starting to wise up perhaps.
    That may also be why Congress has a dismal 18% approval rating.
    I certainly hope it translates into some more sell-out incumbent politicians getting booted from office.

    RGF wrote: …except to throw out the accusation that it must be “biased.”
    That lone article is not only biased, it is incomplete and fails to look at all costs (see above).
    RGF wrote: NOTHING you have offered even considers the whole picture. NOT even if we were assume it was all as true and accurate as YOU believe it to be.
    Well, I don’t see you offering data or evidence to counter it.
    RGF wrote: That is why your solution will only contribute to the problem and all your evidence is irrelevent.
    If it is irrelevant, then why does it bother you and pro-immigrationists so much? Posted by: d.a.n at September 19, 2007 7:14 PM
    Comment #233530

    It bothers me because it misses the point d.a.n.

    Your entire argument, if sold to a sufficient number of voters, will create a pork-barrel boondoggle that will waste an epic amount of our tax dollars and will only make the problem worse!

    That’s why it bothers me, d.a.n.

    Do you have any idea how silly and futile it sounds to watch you keep throwing out the same old tired and irrelevent evidence? All those endless bullet points that miss THE ROOT CAUSE?

    The ROOT CAUSE of illegal immigration must be addressed for ANY solution to work.

    If all you do is spend a fortune in the forlorn hope that a 15’ fence stretched out over thousands of miles will do anything…and fail to recognize that EVEN IF IT DID WORK AS PLANNED, it would still necessarily make the problem worse, Then you are both distracting American voters and wasting all our tax dollars to boot.

    That’s why it bothers me. It’s inherently foolish.

    Posted by: RGF at September 19, 2007 7:24 PM
    Comment #233531

    d.a.n.

    I have given you the reasons why your solution won’t work as you wish it to.

    If you want the reasons, you’ll actually have to read my posts, not just cherry pick snipits that you argue with out of context.

    Posted by: RGF at September 19, 2007 7:26 PM
    Comment #233533

    “Hell, the Cubans and the Haitians are swimming here across the CARRIBEAN! …a feat that is as dangerous as all get out. Sharks, dehydration, drowning …just to name a few of the perils they face.”
    Posted by: RGF at September 19, 2007 04:30 PM

    Thanks RGF, that was funny. I appreciate your humor and can’t wait to see these super athletes in the next summer Olympics.

    Posted by: Jim at September 19, 2007 7:44 PM
    Comment #233541
    RGF wrote: If you want the reasons, you’ll actually have to read my posts, not just cherry pick snipits that you argue with out of context.
    Like what you said about the minutemen and these other snipets above?
  • And what does this mean?

    RGF wrote: THBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB!

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 19, 2007 8:16 PM
    Comment #233549

    Give me your tired,your poor,
    Your huddled masses yearning to breate free,
    The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
    Send these,the homeless,tempest-tost to me,
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

    Emma Lazarus

    Posted by: BillS at September 19, 2007 9:00 PM
    Comment #233553

    From the looks of it, it’s something I can support. The conditions here are military service, college, or community service. They would have to remain in good standing in order to be granted citizenship.

    What’s important here is that these children are not folks who had a choice about coming here. They didn’t break any laws themselves. Why punish them?

    If we truly want to discourage this, punishing those who grew up in the United States will not do it. You work on internal enforcement. Our nation’s border is too geographically large and modern transportation too effective at moving large numbers of people to make the main focus on the border work. If we really want to improve security, if we really want to reduce illegal immigration, we have to catch those already here, as well as those who are trying to get in.

    Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 19, 2007 9:48 PM
    Comment #233558

    rgf,

    what you seem to fail to appreciate is that what makes the u.s. great (and thereby a worthy target for illegal immigrants) is the american middle class.

    with an ever decreasing number of quality jobs paying a living wage (outsourcing jobs/in-sourcing labor), illegal immigration is destroying the middle class.

    if america were to follow your advice, mexico would not be raised to the much sought american standard of living, but rather, america would slowly fall to that of the mexican.

    the profit which illegal mexican immigrants send back to mexico is absorbed, to the best of my knowledge, much as the profit produced off their backs is here - by the wealthy and corrupt.

    it may raise the standard of living there by some minute degree in the short term, but they will never attain the level you seem to think they are owed… at least not by this method.

    inevitably they will end up in their very same situation, however, when the american middle class crumbles… but at least they’ll have a great deal more company here in the north.

    the illegal population is growing, as is the number of poor americans. the middle class is shrinking. before too long, given your prescription, all americans will be paid the slave wages that illegals accept… we will be forced to, for competition’s sake. that’s the nature of the beast.

    do you like your current job? how would you feel about doing the same for a couple bucks an hour? i bet somewhere there in mexico is a potential illegal immigrant with equal ability willing and eager to do it for even less.

    Posted by: diogenes at September 20, 2007 12:03 AM
    Comment #233571

    Are you a befuddled voter. PEW Research indicates voters reject amnesty, but the same voters approve of citizenship path for illegal immigrants already in the country. Are you one of these befuddled voters for whom amnesty is bad, but citizenship for illegal immigrants is good?

    Amnesty=Citizenship Path.
    Amnesty: Bad.
    Citizenship Path: Good.

    What are these befuddled Americans polled trying to tell us?

    These same persons polled indicate their preference for effective solutions:
    Employer penalties: High.
    Increase Border Patrol: Moderate.
    Border Fencing: Low.

    Reality Check:
    Employer Penalties: Some will incorporate the penalties as the cost of doing business and pass the cost to consumers. Employer penalties ONLY work on legitimate Employers who report to the government in the first place. Leaving the underground and illegal economy employers as the employers of choice for illegal immigrants, which in time will make hardened and some violent criminals of illegal immigrants who just came seeking work.

    More Border Patrol: In terms of deterrence, more Border Patrol will be somewhat effective. Border Patrol have high personnel costs that will continue to rise, especially if the job continues to become more dangerous which has been the trend.

    Border Barrier: By itself, it can only be partially effective by driving up the costs for illegal immigrants to circumvent the barriers, thus reducing the number of people attempting to cross. But, border barriers will funnel illegal traffic to more readily accessible points of crossing and breaches in the barrier, which the Border Patrol can more easily focus on as opposed to 2000 miles of wide open border.

    A border barrier has a fixed cost upon erection and creates only small maintenance costs thereafter, compared to ever escalating border patrol personnel costs, wages, retirement, medical benefits. Combined with employer penalties, and focused border barrier surveillance and Border Patrol response teams to breaches, the border barrier becomes an essential foundation for cost effective and effective control of unwanted persons entering our country illegally and undetected.

    So, America has a choice. Remain befuddled and continue paying for ineffective or, only partially effective solutions whose costs will continue to increase over time, or, a comprehensive solution that effectively ends the problem, while keeping costs over time to a minimum.

    If America had statesmen and women for leaders, the comprehensive and cost effective alternative would be the clear choice. But, America has instead, politicians, whose chief concern is party elections and campaign donations, who of course prefer the former ineffective solutions which favor wealthy special interests and voter demographics, while befuddling Americans with claims that such half measures will really work.

    Posted by: David R. Remer at September 20, 2007 7:28 AM
    Comment #233574

    Stephen If it was really such a good idea would they need to add it on to another bill not related to the immigration issue? It makes the democrats representatives look so republican.

    Posted by: j2t2 at September 20, 2007 8:24 AM
    Comment #233575

    Really…have any one of you here attempted, in the last 10-15 years, to actually get a green card for someone? No? It’s nigh well impossible…it takes forever (as in years, not months) and constant appointments with people you can’t reach directly, and payments of money here and money there…

    Let’s make the green card rules more fair and more sensible…

    Posted by: Rachel at September 20, 2007 8:38 AM
    Comment #233578

    David,

    Support for employer sanctions is high, in part, because that was a critical issue in the 1986 law that people know all too well we have not made serious attempts to enforce. People want that law given a chance.
    That factor is what makes the new Arizona law, which goes into effect soon, so compelling to many of us. It does, in fact, hold employers responsible to check Social Security numbers against a federal government database for new hires prior to hiring and gives a time window for current employees to be checked. It is a two-strikes law where, should the state discover that an employee was kept on the payroll when their S.S. number was illegally attained (a felony under federal law) the employer is assumed not to have knowingly allowed the fraud. The second time, however, the employer can be fined as much as ten thousand dollars per employee.

    The internet data check is simple, and , in 95% of cases is returned within five minutes.

    We hear horror stories of the harm such a law will do to the economy but that is precisely the point of ‘consent of the people’. If WE make a law that is bad for us it will hurt us and we will know WE did it to OURSELVES. The whole of society gets to share in the lessons of good and wise lawmaking. When leaders fail to trust us to be smart enough to learn those lessons not only do we not learn them but our trust in government falters.

    Congress, can you say “eleven percent approval rating”?


    Rachel,

    The fact that following the law is hard is not, in our system, an excuse for breaking the law. It is a good reason for changing the law. However, if your goal is to keep a people subdued and their labor cheap one way to do it is to compromise their rights by enticing them to be a whole class of lawbreakers. If you were a semi-scrupulous employer who wanted to have all the advantages of slave labor without all the ugly taint of actually owning people preserving that status-quo might be really tempting.

    Posted by: Lee Jamison at September 20, 2007 9:51 AM
    Comment #233581

    Stephen Daugherty,

    Border security is not impossible as some portray it:

    • A fence, ditches, a road, cameras, helicoptors, technology, etc. are all possible.

    • The initial one-time cost would be about $8 Billion. That’s about 8 days of interest on the $9 Trillion National debt.

    • The cost thereafter for border patrol and maintenance (on all land borders; north and south) would be $10 Billion per year.

    • Since illegal immigration costs U.S. tax payers over $70 Billion (perhaps much more by some new estimates) in annual net losses, the tax payers would save $60 Billion annually.

    • $10 Billion is less than the annual net losses for California alone.

    So the argument that border security is impossible is false.

    If the opponents to border security are so confident it can not work, then why oppose it so vociferously?

    But, here is the sad reality. What is probably more likely to occur is over the next 6+ years (or longer) is this:

    • (1) Despite Congress’ dismal 18% approval rating now (2007), most American voters will continue to repeatedly reward incumbent politicians with 90%-to-95% re-election rates. If the voters prove me wrong, I may have renewed faith in Americans. If not, then American voters have the governemnt and predicament that they deserve.

    • (2) 40% to 50% of American voters will not even bother to vote.

    • (3) Come Nov-2008, 2010, and 2012, most voters will still pull the party-lever. Partisan loyalties are powerful, and trump reason. This disconnect is evidenced by Congress’ low approval ratings, but 90%-to-95% re-election rates. The only thing that will trump misplaced loyalties will be the inevitable pain of the consequences. However, it may be too late by the time the sources of those painful consequences are understood (if ever). Most voters believe that THEIR party is the solution. However, we have been letting BOTH parties take turns for centuries, and BOTH seem to be merely taking turns at abusing power and wealth, and carrying the water only for the vastly wealthy who fill their campaign war chests that ensure the security of their cu$hy, coveted incumbencies (since voters elect (90% of the time) candidates (incumbents 90%-to-95% of time) that spend the most money).

    • (4) Most voters (99.85% of 200 million eligible voters) will continue to send in their campaign donations ($2.00 per person on average), while remaining ignorant of the fact that 83% of all federal campaign donations (of $200 or more; averaging $6667 per person) come from only a very tiny 0.15% of the total 200 million eligible voters.
    • (5) Most voters will still not know who their state and federal senators and representatives are, much less their voting records. 90% of the time, voters simply vote on the candidate that spends the most money (which is usually the incumbent; as evidenced by Congress’ 90% to 95% re-election rates since 1996).

    • (6) Most voters will continue to emphasize the few real differences and ignore the many things and solutions that most voters already agree upon; allowing the nation’s pressing problems to grow dangerously in number and severity. It is easier for voters to blame the OTHER party than admit that politicians in BOTH are so corrupt and FOR-SALE, that most real differences are irrelevant. The voters are the one largest group (200 million eligible voters) responsible for their own problems. But the majority of voters choose to blame politicians, rather than take responsibility themselves. Blaming others is always easier than careful and honest introspection and education. Like water and electricity, that flow along the path of least resistance, so do humans choose the same path. At least until the consequential pain trumps laziness.

    It is not that these many problems can not be solved.
    It is that we lack the will to solve them.
    At least until the painful consequences creates the incentive.
    Unfortunately, and especially with illegal immigration, it may be too late.
    Likewise with these other pressing problems being ignored for decades; allowing them to approach the point where the only solution left is to endure the painful consequences. Only then, Americans will be less apathetic, complacent, and disinterested when they are jobless, bankrupt, homeless, and hungry. Even then, will they understand that they only have themselves to thank for it.

    David R. Remer wrote: So, America has a choice. Remain befuddled and continue paying for ineffective or, only partially effective solutions whose costs will continue to increase over time, or, a comprehensive solution that effectively ends the problem, while keeping costs over time to a minimum.
    David R. Remer, the mixed views of the Pew Research article shows a disconnect of logic. These inconsistencies in part reveal why we are unable to effect solutions … at least until it becomes painful enough to make the path more obvious.

    Also, I believe those many band-aids and “ineffective or, only partially effective solutions” are not entirely by accident. Since we know most politicians (both DEMs (want votes and profits from cheap labor), and REPUBs (want profits from cheap labor; not likely to get more votes)), they pay lip service, create partial solutions, and vote for BILLs to build a fence, but conveniently omit the funds to build it. What is very clear is that most politicians do not want to secure the borders or enforce existing laws. They want another amnesty. Republicans had a decade to do something about it, and only as the last minute in late 2006 when their poll numbers were looking dismal, they passed a BILL for half of a fence, but no funding to build it.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 20, 2007 10:18 AM
    Comment #233582

    RGF,

    You wrote-

    The money streaming south is actually bringing about greater stability and greater a standard of living there.

    If that is true the economic equation that makes this possible will be resilient enough to sustain itself even if we fix the immigration situation, but people here legally will really have rights and will be able to demand fairer wages and working conditions for their own work.

    The horrible corruption of the past is fading. Much of it, if not all of it, was fostered by us anyway.
    This is simple prejudice, as though corruption can’t flow both ways. When their president uses diplomatic relations to directly interfere with the enforcement of our laws, and even questions our right to enforce our borders, many of us think we see corruption coming north.
    I will disagree with you because you are missing another salient fact: There are an increasing number of Americans, non-hispanic Americans from the U.S. who are streaming SOUTH to live out their retirement in the Yucatan, Guanajuato, Baja California, etc. etc. They aren’t going because they think the system of laws is better HERE. There are places in central Mexico, not even along the coasts, where %10 to %15 of the populace are “gringos.”
    The choice American citizens make to become expatriates is more than a little different from the choice illegal immigrants make to blend into the shadows of this country’s working poor. They are inherently out in the open and thoroughly documented. They generally have to show a substantial level of financial responsibilty or support, and they are very often there because of a personal attraction to the culture of their adopted region. As to the comment on medical care, I hear that the other way, too. Posted by: Lee Jamison at September 20, 2007 10:21 AM
    Comment #233587

    Jim,

    Alright, alright…in fairness…Cubans and Haitians
    are more like rafting here than swimming, but those
    rafts don’t tend to be very well put together. It’s
    still dangerous. funny response though. kudos.

    d.a.n.,

    There is another rather more important reason I am
    opposed to your “solution”:

    Knowing that there are some rather significant
    campaign money generating corporations that are
    actually invested in the status quo, it seems
    clear that this immigration issue is nothing more than
    a DISTRACTION issue at best. What I mean by
    that is that the one and only thing it is likely to
    change is by means of the number of voters, such as
    yourself, who get all revved up over this. The powers
    that be in Washington aren’t ABOUT to do anything to
    change the status quo, but they would rev this issue
    up in the minds of the masses to see if they could
    turn it into a null and meaningless campaign
    issue that they might, nonetheless, achieve an
    election victory with.

    By “they” I mean either the republicans or
    the Democrats. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter. Those
    who are generating the campaign money to get what they
    want now, could just as easily switch their influence
    and contributions later. Like so manny other issues of
    political corruption in this country, this one is
    bigger than either party and thus crosses party lines.

    Now, seeing this is the real reason for stirring up so
    much energy on this issue …
    …and seeing how the last immigration bill died a
    procedural death, rather pridictably…

    Can you understand why I don’t want the silly
    expenditure of a wall or any of this other
    foolishness?

    It’s all wag-the-dog stuff anyway.

    Ask yourself:
    What is this immigration issue foolishness distracting
    the public attention FROM?

    That’s the real question!

    Lee,

    In many ways, we are actually more corrupt. We manipulate laws and international agreements while they just ‘graft’ money this way and that.

    However, the reason conditions are improving in Mexico is because of the savings being sent home by laborers working here, both documented and undocumented. If that were to get shut off completely…A preposterous notion, really, considering the realities of the situation, but just for arguments sake and assuming the most fantastical results from this pork-barrell boondoggle wall idea…even that would not do anything but make things worse by turning up the pressure in the ‘pressure cooker’ of Mexico and Latin America.


    Posted by: RGF at September 20, 2007 11:33 AM
    Comment #233589
    Rachel wrote: Really…have any one of you here attempted, in the last 10-15 years, to actually get a green card for someone? No? It’s nigh well impossible…it takes forever (as in years, not months) and constant appointments with people you can’t reach directly, and payments of money here and money there… Let’s make the green card rules more fair and more sensible…
    The U.S. already allows over 1 million per year to legally immigrate.

    So you think it shoud be more?
    Why?
    How many should we allow? Everyone?
    Care to give us a number?
    Why should foreign countries and illegal aliens be allowed to dictate these numbers?
    What are the penalties in other countries for illegal immigration (e.g. in Mexico)?

    LEGAL IMMIGRATION FACTS:

    • During the 50 years after our country’s inception, the United States received about 710,000 immigrants.

    • During the first century of our country’s existence (1776 to 1884), we received about 2 immigrants a day (over 730 per year).

    • Traditionally, modern immigration to the United States averaged below 200,000 newcomers per year. The exceptions are a brief period of mass immigration at the start of the 20th century and the decades of escalating arrivals since passage of the 1965 Immigration Act.

    • In recent years, we have permitted over 1 million legal immigrants per year—over 2 million more immigrants per year are illegal (bringing the combined immigrant (legal or not) to 3 million per year).

    • In the 1990s we admitted two immigrants every minute (over 1 million per year; that is 2,880 per day!)

    • In year 2006, California’s population grew by 500,000 more people (legally).

    • In the past 10 years (1996 to 2006) the United States admitted enough immigrants to populate a new city larger than Washington, D.C. each year.

    • The immigrant share as a percentage of the total U.S. population (300 Million at end of year 2006) is also growing at a record-breaking rate. The foreign-born population grew from 7.9% in 1990 to 12.5 percent of U.S. population in 2006. At current trends, in this decade, the percentage of foreign-born residents will surpass even the all time high reached in 1890 of 14.8% .

    • The USCIS (formerly the INS) has a processing backlog of approximately 4.5 million immigration applications.

    • Roughly 10% of Mexico’s population of 107 million resides in the United States.

    • There is federal legislation currently under consideration, which, if passed, would add between 100 and 200 million more immigrants to our population over the next 20 years.

    • Polls consistently show that the majority of Americans want a reduction in immigration numbers—both legal and illegal.

    … more …

    RGF wrote: This problem will and must resolve itself. There are too many American interests involved in corruptly profiting from the status quo, anyway. Over time, the standard of living in Mexico will rise to be closer to our own as a result of that very status quo.
    Does that comment have the ring of satisfaction? And there are millions more people that do too. Recently, nearly 2 million immigrants and illegal aliens across the nation took to the streets to protest U.S. laws and borders, some calling for a “reconquista” or “reclamation” of the U.S. Southwest by Mexico, some waving the Mexican flag, and the U.S. flag upside down; displaying their obvious hatred and disrespect of the United States.

    Even our own President, G.W. Bush(43) waves the flag of Mexico.
    Why? For profits, votes, and “Misplaced Compassion” (see Jack’s article).

    What is sad is that RGF is probably right about Americans.

    Yes RGF, sadly, I can not argue the greed, corruption, and ignorance that exists (on both sides of the border). This is why my sympathy and respect for American voters is waning more and more as each year goes by.

    Why? Because Americans are selling each other out left and right. The illegal immigration problem is just one of the many manifestations of greed, laziness, blind loyalties, and ignorance.

    Our own politicians are selling us out and despicably pitting American citizens against each other; fueling societal chaos, friction, and costs shifted to American tax payers (for nefarious reasons; for votes and profit).

    Yet most voters reward those very same polticians for it with 90%-to-95% re-election.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 20, 2007 11:45 AM
    Comment #233590

    In fact, I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if our sell-out politicians and G.W. Bush are working right this minute on a new flag (note 51st start in lower right corner of new flag).

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 20, 2007 11:54 AM
    Comment #233594

    An interesting article I ran across….regarding border security. I have always felt that proponents of a border fence with Mexico is driven by irrational fears and equally irrational solutions. Welcome to the new Maginot line.

    Posted by: alien from the planet zorg at September 20, 2007 12:18 PM
    Comment #233602
    An interesting article I ran across….regarding border security. I have always felt that proponents of a border fence with Mexico is driven by irrational fears and equally irrational solutions. Welcome to the new Maginot line.
    Yes, problems are to be expected, but does that mean it is impossible, and/or unnecessary?
    • $1 million per mile for border security system.
    • 2000 miles on the U.S./Mexico border.
    • 4000 miles on the U.S/Canada border.
    • $1 million x (2000 + 4000) = $6 Billion
    • Net losses to American tax payers due to illegal immigation = $70 Billion (to $338 Billion by some estimates)

    Even if the annual cost 10 times more, it is less than the $70 Billion in net losses to American tax payers.

    But if you don’t want a fence, and/or border security, and/or limits on immigration numbers, and/or enforcement of existing immigration laws, or if you want another amnesty, then don’t worry.
    Because Americans have a choice, and there does not appear to be much reason for optimism that they will choose in time.
    Most of our politicians will not allow any systems to hurt their profits. Any system they create will be partial and incomplete systems (by design) that are easy to defeat and circumvent.

    It’s not that border security is impossible. It’s that most of our politicians are selling us out and won’t allow it, and most voters reward them for it.

    • Illegal aliens can recieve Medicaid (legally).

    • Once here, illegal aliens are suddenly entitled to legally use our schools, hospitals, ERs, and even vote in our elections.

    • Sell-out politicians make it illegal to report illegal aliens in ERs and hospitals. That is because our sell-out politicians carefully created a myriad of rules and laws to undermine other existing immigration laws and border security.

    • Sell-out politicians create magnets to attract illegal aliens (cheap labor) to the U.S. The cost burdens, like a REGRESSIVE tax, are cleverly shifted to American tax payers.

    So, in reality, the biggest problem is NOT illegal immigration.
    Illegal immigration is merely one of many symptoms of a more fundamental problem. A simple fact of human nature.
    The three biggest reasons for most problems, including illegal immigration are:

    • (1) Greed and laziness: Sell-out politicians that despicably (for votes and profits) pit American citizens and illegal aliens agianst each other (BOTH DEMs and REPUBs and politicians on BOTH sides of the borders).

    • (2) Complacency, apathy, and laziness: Most American voters that reward those same politicians for it with 90% to 95% re-election rates; essentially programming sell-out, corrupt politicians to grow more corrupt (like rewarding a child for bad behavior; it spoils them and breeds more bad behavior).

    • (3) The grass is greener on one side of the fence. And because of (1) and (2) above, it is easier for many to go to the other side of the fence, rather than work to fix things on their own side of the fence. That is, some people choose to plunder others; use others; exploit others, steal from other; even pervert the laws to legally plunder others. There are too many that abuse wealth and power (e.g. illegal employers (puppeteers) and their bought-and-paid-for politicians (puppets)) to exploit illegal aliens (for profits from cheap labor) and their fellow citizens, by cleverly shifting the cost burdens to the slumbering, unaware, complacent, apathetic, voters; voters that will ironically reward the incumbent politicians for it anyway, despite their full awareness of the abuse. Too many voters are so very thoroughly blinded by partisan loyalties, that those unhappy voters still actually reward and re-elect those very same incumbent politicians that are stabbing them in the back.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 20, 2007 1:18 PM
    Comment #233604

    d.a.n

    I still don’t see the reason we need limit legal immigration so much. Why don’t we allow some people from abroad to legally immigrate to this country is beyond me.

    Posted by: Warren P at September 20, 2007 1:31 PM
    Comment #233605

    Warren,

    Read the comments above and you will see we do allow a million people per year to legally immigrate.

    Posted by: Lee Jamison at September 20, 2007 1:34 PM
    Comment #233607

    Wow,I’ve been doing a little reading and caught up with this quote from a speech by Mexico’s President Calderon-

    “Finally, I have said that Mexico does not end at the border, that wherever there is a Mexican Mexico is there; this is why the actions of the Government in favor of our migrating countrymen is guided by principles, by the defense and protection of their rights, by prevention for detecting measures that may affect our people and by the professionalism we must offer our co-nationals.
    That’s interesting, don’t you think? Who decides what laws apply to them here? Who decides what those rights might be?

    Posted by: Lee Jamison at September 20, 2007 2:49 PM
    Comment #233612

    d.a.n.

    I’m not arguing “more”, if you actually read what I posted…I’m arguing for “fair”…the green cardprocess is broken, ridiculous, expensive, and totally unfair!!

    Quite funny how simple it is for a professional basketball player from another country to be admitted…like we don’t have enough players here already??? come on…

    Posted by: Rachel at September 20, 2007 3:38 PM
    Comment #233617

    Perhaps I did not phrase my question correctly. I understand that we allow 1 million immigrants per year? It seems that the demand is much higher than that, why not increase the number allowed to enter legally? If that does not end most of the problem, then I would certainly agree that those crossing the border are doing so with bad intentions and should be rounded up and deported.

    Posted by: Warren P at September 20, 2007 3:58 PM
    Comment #233621

    Warren P:

    Just how many do you think we have room for?

    Posted by: womanmarine at September 20, 2007 4:20 PM
    Comment #233622
    Rachel wrote: Really…have any one of you here attempted, in the last 10-15 years, to actually get a green card for someone? No? It’s nigh well impossible…it takes forever (as in years, not months)…
    Rachel wrote: d.a.n. I’m not arguing “more”, if you actually read what I posted…I’m arguing for “fair”…the green cardprocess is broken, ridiculous, expensive, and totally unfair!!
    Rachel, How many more would be fair to you? Do you know how many are already allowed to legally immigrate per year. Do you know how many are already allowed to work here per year (legally). Do you know how many come here per year illegally. With so many coming here illegally (2 million), why should we allow more legally? Do you think the U.S. has a right to choose how many? Have you asked the Chinese and Indian governments about all of the advantages of over-population? Should we emulate China and India? Do you know how much the world population grows per day? 249,000 per day (that’s all births minus deaths). Do you know what the population of the U.S. is now?

    Really…have any one of you here attempted, in the last 10-15 years, to actually get a green card for someone? No? It’s nigh well impossible…it takes forever (as in years, not months) and constant appointments with people you can’t reach directly, and payments of money here and money there…

    Rachel wrote:Quite funny how simple it is for a professional basketball player from another country to be admitted…like we don’t have enough players here already??? come on…
    Interesting logic. We have enough basket ball players?
    Warren P wrote: Perhaps I did not phrase my question correctly. I understand that we allow 1 million immigrants per year? It seems that the demand is much higher than that, why not increase the number allowed to enter legally? If that does not end most of the problem, then I would certainly agree that those crossing the border are doing so with bad intentions and should be rounded up and deported.
    So, as long as there is demand, we should allow them in?

    That’s a plan.
    After our country is thoroughly abused and used up, they’ll move onto the next target?
    That is what happens with illegal immigration.
    Especially when the government taxes people, then shifts those costs to citizens, and then pits citizens and illegal aliens against each other (for profit and votes).

    Sure, let’s just let everyone come here and see how wonderful it is … for a while … until it is too late to undo.

    So, some seem to think the U.S. is obligated to let in all the immigrants that want to come here. Some think 3 million a year (legall and illegally) is not enough.

    Could you then please tell us what a good number is?

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 20, 2007 4:32 PM
    Comment #233639

    Wouldn’t a good number be whatever the free market allows? I don’t see any reasons to prevent a willing person to immigrate here.

    Posted by: Warren P at September 20, 2007 5:34 PM
    Comment #233644

    Warren,

    What you describe is not what happens in a fair market. A fair market permits the ‘seller’ to express his assertion of a value. There is a value to being here and you would have us give that value away for free.
    I have a need of a good car. Would you give me yours?
    You may take your country for granted, but many of us don’t.

    Posted by: Lee Jamison at September 20, 2007 5:42 PM
    Comment #233645

    d.a.n.

    I have always felt the way to deal with the illegal immigrant….oh let’s just say it….the illegal cheap labor pool…is to put those that employ them in jail. They are stealing from the immigrants and stealing from us.

    Do that, and the immigrant market will dry up. They will go elsewhere looking to improve their lot in life.

    Walls, technologically advanced or not, historically, simply do not work. Some will get rich building them. The immigrants will find other means, political or physical to get around them.

    In my opinion, it’s a distraction from the real issue of the undermining of US labor.

    As to RGF’s comments, I agree we should work toward improving Mexico’s economy and political system. Not out of guilt, but practicality. We could engage in the same kind of economic and propoganda games we employed in the cold war against the Soviets. (Not the destructive kind), but using broadcasts and economic aid to encourage Mexicans to throw out the corrupt politicians, police, and millitary figures and reform the economic strangle hold of the rich.

    We are currently doing the opposite. Encouraging corruption and letting them influence our politics to look more like Mexico’s corrupt economic strangle hold. We have much in common interest with the Mexican people. Education is one of their worst problems. Beegin to address that and things will turn.

    Posted by: alien from the planet zorg at September 20, 2007 5:43 PM
    Comment #233665

    The Dream Act is a logical,compassionate law that makes sense. Children that were brought here illegally,not of their own volition,that graduate high school and successfully attend at least two years of college or enlist in the military and remain for at least two years will become eligiable to become citizens. These young people are here anyway and will remain,dispite the fearful pipe dreams of some. We will be better off allowing them to come out of the shadows and fully help build and defend the country.

    Posted by: BillS at September 20, 2007 8:06 PM
    Comment #233670

    BillS, sure thing, just as soon as they are deported to the end of the line of waiting legal immigrants. No problem.

    Posted by: David R. Remer at September 20, 2007 9:16 PM
    Comment #233671

    Warren P, the freest market in America is the illegal drug trade. Free of regulation, oversight, taxes, in fact, free of all encumbrances of law, except when one is caught and successfully prosecuted, which is the cost of doing business for one’s riches made in the trade. But, even that’s not as big a cost as most Americans think. Our prisons are so overcrowded we seek every way possible to release them early to make room for the new ones.

    Illegal immigrants from Mexico in the U.S. now account for more than 300 billion dollars of illegal drug trade in America, I heard on NPR today. Are you really suggesting free market forces dictate who can come here, and would that be with, or without immunizations, with or without education and moral character, with or without ties to criminal or terrorist organizations? If the answer to these questions are without, then you must have secure borders which force immigrants to pass through legal channels and screenings to insure they are without these threats to American citizens in their own homeland.

    Posted by: David R. Remer at September 20, 2007 9:25 PM
    Comment #233672

    BillS,

    It is a logical act only if it reserves some semblance of advantage for the folks who are here legally. My children can’t go to LSU for in-state tuition and they have lived in Texas all their lives. But someone can garner an advantage over my kids by crossing the Mexican border into Texas.
    A friend of mine on a work visa from England could not have her kids go to school in Texas for in-state tuition, assuming their father was from England, though she has worked in Texas for years. And SHE played by the rules. Why do we give someone else an advantage for their parents’ having broken the law?
    A fifty year-old can claim to have been brought into the country by her parents thirty-five years ago and get six years to do a few hundred hours of make-work and then she’s legal while thousands of people in every country on the globe spend thousands of hours just trying to grind their way through the paperwork to get in the right way?

    How the hell is that either compassionate or fair?

    Posted by: Lee Jamison at September 20, 2007 9:28 PM
    Comment #233710
    alien from planet zorg wrote: d.a.n. I have always felt the way to deal with the illegal immigrant….oh let’s just say it….the illegal cheap labor pool…is to put those that employ them in jail. They are stealing from the immigrants and stealing from us.
    I agree with that completely.
    alien from planet zorg wrote: Do that, and the immigrant market will dry up. They will go elsewhere looking to improve their lot in life.
    I agree with that completely.
    alien from planet zorg wrote: Walls, technologically advanced or not, historically, simply do not work.
    I disagree with that. While not 100% effective, they can be very effective along with border patrol too. In fact, if you took the same number of troops currently in Iraq (169,000), that would be enough for one border patrol person every 187.46 feet along all 6000 miles of land borders along both the US/Canada border (4000 miles) and US/Mexico border (2000 miles). The cost would be $10 to $12 Billion per year. Even if it was double that (e.g. $24 Billion per year), it would be effective in stopping 99% of illegal aliens. Since illegal aliens cost American tax payers a net loss of over $70 Billion per year, it would save tax payers $46 Billion to $60 Billion annually.

    However it will probably never happen.

    Not because it is impossible, but because we lack the will.

    It requires our politicians to enforce existing laws, and they won’t do it since voters reward them for not doing it.
    Voters are programmed to pull the party lever, despite giving Congress a dismal 18% approval rating.

    alien from planet zorg wrote: Some will get rich building them.
    And that shouldn’t happen. People should be compensated for their labor. Not unjustly enriched with lotter-type awards by abusing the system. Corruption affects everything. Not just illegal immigration. But corruption will grow as long as voters reward politicians for it.
    alien from planet zorg wrote: The immigrants will find other means, political or physical to get around them.
    If the barrier is 99% effective, and it could be, they will have difficulty finding another way.

    But too many voters lack the will to do anything but pull the party-lever and reward the very same politicians stabbing them in the back, and despicably pitting American citizens and illegal aliens against each other.

    alien from planet zorg wrote: In my opinion, it’s a distraction from the real issue of the undermining of US labor.
    Border Security? Well I disagree in theory. In reality you are perhaps correct, since too many voters lack the will to do anything but pull the party-lever and reward the very same politicians stabbing them in the back, and despicably pitting American citizens and illegal aliens against each other.
    alien from planet zorg wrote: As to RGF’s comments, I agree we should work toward improving Mexico’s economy and political system. Not out of guilt, but practicality. We could engage in the same kind of economic and propoganda games we employed in the cold war against the Soviets. (Not the destructive kind), but using broadcasts and economic aid to encourage Mexicans to throw out the corrupt politicians, police, and millitary figures and reform the economic strangle hold of the rich.
    I agree with that for the most part. However, being wealthy is not a crime. Not all wealthy are bad. Using wealth and power to control and influence government should be a crime. But it is not. In a voting nation, it does not have to be that way. But, sadly it is, because most voters bitch and complain and give Congress a dismal 18% approve rating, but turn around and reward them with perpetual re-election 90% to 95% of the time. 90% of elections are won by the candidate that spends the most money (usually the incumbent).

    I do not agree with RGF’s other comments above about those that disagree with him, or what he calls the minutemen

    RGF wrote: I would bet my money that one Mexican could outwork any TEN Americans.

    RGF wrote: The minutemen are allowing themselves to be fooled.

    RGF wrote: the minutemen are COMPLETELY UNAMERICAN.

    RGF wrote: Groups like the minutemen are NOT patriots at all.

    RGF wrote: The minutemen, apparently, are just a bunch of lazy irresponsible mother f***kers who don’t want America to own up to its

    alien from planet zorg wrote: We are currently doing the opposite. Encouraging corruption
    Exactly. We are encouraging corruption. Voters are culpable too.
    alien from planet zorg wrote: Encouraging corruption and letting them influence our politics to look more like Mexico’s corrupt economic strangle hold. We have much in common interest with the Mexican people. Education is one of their worst problems. Beegin to address that and things will turn.
    them? Some (not all) wealthy that abuse vast wealth to influence government? Yes.

    Yes, the U.S. has been going backwards for a while.
    I think things started to go downhill around 1975 to 1980.
    That is when the wealthy started getting a lot wealthier (look at the chart).
    That is when government really become FOR-SALE.
    Those that abuse vast wealth do not want to work in government.
    They prefer to bribe government.
    And our government is FOR-SALE, as evidenced by 83% of all federal campaign funds (averaging $6667 per person) come from a mere 0.15% (300,000) of the total 200 million eligible U.S. voters. The remaining 99.85% of the 200 million eligible U.S. voters don’t stand a chance with their measely $2.00 per person (on average).

    So who are politicians going to cater to?
    Those very few with vast wealth giving them 83% of the money to get re-elected?
    Or 99.85% of all 200 million eligible voters?
    Especially when those politicians know that most voters will vote (90% of the time) for the candidate (usually the incumbent) that spends the most money.
    Clearly, that 99.85% of the 200 million eligible voters are being fooled into rewarding the very same politicians they complain about and give a dismal 18% approval rating.
    And that is because too many of them are quite simply brainwashed to pull the party-lever.
    Winning seats for THEIR party is all that is important (for those that even bother to vote; 40% to 50% don’t bother).
    Therefore, voters have the government they deserve.

    It would be comical if the stakes weren’t so high.
    But politicians actually have voters cheering for them; promoting them; throwing money at them; fighting for them; screaming down the OTHER side; and fueling the partisan warfare.
    And too many voters are all too happy to wallow in the partisan warfare.
    Blaming the OTHER party is easier than looking at THEIR own party, much less working to fix THEIR own party.

    alien from planet zorg wrote: Begin to address that and things will turn.
    I agree.

    But it requires an educated electorate.
    In a voting nation, an eduated electorate is paramount.
    We can get it the smart way, or the hard, painful way (again).

    This illegal immigration problem is just a symptom (of many) all rooted in a much more fundamental problem.

    Congress is working hard to get an amnesty.

  • (1)Republican and Democrat politicians want cheap labor for their greedy illegal employers. Democrat politicians want votes (they are confident illegal aliens will vote Democrat; some illegal aliens are already voting in our elections and I seriously doubt they will vote Republican; I’m not sure why since most politicians in BOTH parties have granted amnesties and done just about everything they can to grow immigration (legal or not)).

  • (2)And American voters reward those politicians with 90% to 95% re-election rates.
  • What is wrong with that picture?

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 21, 2007 8:01 AM
    Comment #233820

    sorry, I wasn’t clear.

    By “them” I was refering to those that profit from tax advantages by outsourcing and exploiting labor,and using illegal labor.

    Posted by: alien from the planet zorg at September 21, 2007 5:18 PM
    Comment #233848

    d.a.n.,

    I was considering your exchange with Alien:

    alien from planet zorg wrote: Walls, technologically advanced or not, historically, simply do not work.

    And then d.a.n.’s response:
    I disagree with that. While not 100% effective, they can be very effective along with border patrol too. In fact, if you took the same number of troops currently in Iraq (169,000), that would be enough for one border patrol person every 187.46 feet along all 6000 miles of land borders along both the US/Canada border (4000 miles) and US/Mexico border (2000 miles). The cost would be $10 to $12 Billion per year. Even if it was double that (e.g. $24 Billion per year), it would be effective in stopping 99% of illegal aliens. Since illegal aliens cost American tax payers a net loss of over $70 Billion per year, it would save tax payers $46 Billion to $60 Billion annually.

    However it will probably never happen.

    Actually, d.a.n., I suspect that at least the wall part will actually happen exactly because it won’t work.

    That is why I keep calling the wall and any increased enforcement a pork-barrell boondaggle to waste money.

    There are a few things that a wall and increased enforcement are guaranteed to accomplish:
    -increased size and expense of government.

    -contract benefits for whichever company gets the job of building the wall.

    -political stumping for some politician on an issue that most politicians with any sense realize cannot be changed by means of either a wall or increased enforcement or even both together.

    And so, the wall will probably happen, but not for the reasons you think. It will happen exactly BECAUSE it cannot possibly work.
    For the same reason, I suspect that the border patrol will increase in number as well. In fact, it already has.

    And therein lies the problem, d.a.n.
    By supporting the cause you have chosen with such fervor, you are only helping to “WAG THE DOG.”

    Posted by: RGF at September 21, 2007 6:38 PM
    Comment #233854

    What ever. I think voters will get what they deserve and I have no sympathy for them. In the mean time, I am thinking of selling my land in Texas and New Mexico and moving somewhere else.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 21, 2007 6:51 PM
    Comment #233899

    Well this newly released information should give us all warm, fuzzy feelings…

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070921/ts_nm/security_usa_visas_dc_1

    Posted by: Sandra Davidson at September 22, 2007 2:29 AM
    Comment #233965

    d.a.n.,

    I hear there are great land deals to be had in Mexico. The people are friendly and hard working and your money will go farther than here.

    Posted by: RGF at September 22, 2007 5:30 PM
    Comment #234000

    I want to thank whoever posted the “Diversity Visa” fiasco link. My browser didn’t display the I.D.

    Whenever the next attack within our borders happens someone should put up one of those signs that says “Your Tax Dollars at work”.

    Posted by: Lee Jamison at September 22, 2007 9:59 PM
    Comment #234136

    The ONLY minutely viable argument I can see for any neew kind of wall along the border would be the effort to stop infiltration of terrorism argument. Of course, that assumes the wall would actually work.

    However, if no wall would stop a desparate Mexican trying to escape starvation and pverty, why should I believe it would stop a sick psycho terrorist?

    The article linked above is about infiltration of terrorists into the country legally. So by all means, let’s build a wall? …or add more laws? …huh?

    There is a lot of just plain NON-SENSE floating around on this issue, that’s certain.

    Posted by: RGF at September 24, 2007 10:58 AM
    Comment #234170
    RGF wrote: d.a.n., I hear there are great land deals to be had in Mexico. The people are friendly and hard working and your money will go farther than here.
    Yeah?

    And what are Mexico’s immigration laws like?

    What happens in Mexico if you are an illegal immigrant?

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 24, 2007 4:11 PM
    Comment #234172
    RGF wrote: There is a lot of just plain NON-SENSE floating around on this issue, that’s certain.
    There certainly is. Aren’t you tired of it yet? Posted by: d.a.n at September 24, 2007 4:12 PM
    Comment #234178

    Yes, d.a.n.

    But, I will soldier on since the alternative is to have immense amounts of American tax dollars wasted by going toward nothing but American graft and corruption in the form of that preposterous wall you keep advocating for!

    oh, and, Mexico is open for all of us for the price of a visa that is, I might add, infinitely smaller thatn what the typical depsrately poor Mexican laborer pays to a “coyote” to get smuggled across!

    We, however, are not as grandios toward them.

    As for how Mexico treats immigrants from its other border…
    …reference my previous posts for the coming problems associated with the rest of Latin America.

    Posted by: RGF at September 24, 2007 6:16 PM
    Comment #234188

    Yeah right. Are you worried about tax dollars?

    Please continue.
    This is all great material.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 24, 2007 8:15 PM
    Comment #234268

    d.a.n.


    Look -
    Wall or no wall the immigration will continue.

    However, with a wall we get the added loss of monay associated with the pork-barrell boondoggle the wall represents!

    You claim that you are worried about tax dollars???

    Yes, please continue. This is all great material!

    Posted by: RGF at September 25, 2007 11:41 AM
    Comment #234313
    RGF wrote:However, with a wall we get the added loss of monay associated with the pork-barrell boondoggle the wall represents!
    Hmmmm … maybe math is not your strong suit?

    + $70 Billion in new losses
    - $10 Billion cost
    ______________________________
    = $60 Billion in savings.

    Border security would save tax payers $60 to $328 Billion annually.

    Now, if voters will also stop rewarding and re-electing sell-out politicians looking for profits and votes, border security and law enforcement will put a huge dent in this problem, stop the 3.6 to 25 homicides per day by illegal aliens (2 to 13.6 times higher than the norm), reduce crime, drug trafficking, job displacement, and voting fraud, etc., etc., etc.

    Sounds like a good idea to me.
    But then I don’t suffer from misplaced compassion.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 25, 2007 2:38 PM
    Comment #234317

    d.a.n.,

    Give me a break!

    You say:

    Hmmmm … maybe math is not your strong suit?
    + $70 Billion in new losses
    - $10 Billion cost
    ______________________________
    = $60 Billion in savings.

    …and your solution DOESN’T EVEN ADDRESS THE ROOT CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM???!!!


    Perhaps, logical reasoning isn’t YOUR strong point!

    Posted by: RGF at September 25, 2007 3:21 PM
    Comment #234318

    d.a.n.

    You know, I’d rather NOT throw $10 Billion down a rat hole just to prove you wrong, d.a.n.

    Why don’t you read what I’ve been trying to get through to you?

    Posted by: RGF at September 25, 2007 3:24 PM
    Comment #234343

    RGF,
    Your arguments are:

    • not convincing

    • diplay more compassion for illegal aliens than Americans

    • and also contain many deragoatory statements about Americans (see below).

    You know, I’d rather NOT throw $10 Billion down a rat hole just to prove you wrong, d.a.n.

    Especially not very convincing are the parts where you wrote:

    • RGF wrote: I would bet my money that one Mexican could outwork any TEN Americans.
      {Clearly an exageration, eh? But then again, baesd on the other comments, RGF may truly believe that. At any rate, I see many Americans every day working very hard.}

    • RGF wrote: The Minutemen are allowing themselves to be fooled.

    • RGF wrote: the Minutemen are COMPLETELY UNAMERICAN.
      {Really? Why? }

    • RGF wrote: They [illegal aliens] have even already demonstrated the utter folly of those silly imbeciles, the “minutemen,” by building a BERM on the Mexican side of the fence those fools [Minutemen].

    • RGF wrote: Groups like the Minutemen are NOT patriots at all. {Like NumbersUSA.com, ALIPAC.US, ImmigrationsHumanCost.org, BetterImmigration.com, CIS.org (Center for Immigration Studies), Urban.org (Urban Institute), ice.gov (Immigration and Customs Enforcement)?}

    • RGF wrote: I was part of group of volunteers who went down to the border areas of Texas to help file returns for undocumented aliens.
      {Isn’t that illegal? How can an illegal alien file an IRS return without a fraudulently obtained Social Security number? That complicity is possibly a felony. I hope someone is paying attention to this}

    • RGF wrote: This problem is actually going to be solved by the Mexicans themselves.
      {does that comment sound like a threat? Spite?}

    • RGF wrote: In the meantime, rant and rave all you want.
      {Huh? Which comments in this thread appear most like ranting and raving?}

    • RGF wrote: Americans are just as stupid and just as criminal as anybody else …and we have less reason to resort to such lunacy considering all our advantages.
      {not according to studies showing homicide rates ranging from rates 2 times to 13.6 greater than the norm}

    • RGF wrote: The only SOLUTION is for Mexico to achieve a standard of living more commensurate with our own.
      {Interesting. Well there are a lot of other countries on the planet too; not just Mexico.}

    • RGF wrote: You know, I’d rather NOT throw $10 Billion down a rat hole just to prove you wrong, d.a.n.
      {Hhmmmm. How can someone who is so worried about what things will cost totally conveniently overlook the cost to bring Mexico “to a standard of living more commensurate with our own” in the U.S.? Is that logic bassackwards?}

    • RGF wrote: The Minutemen, apparently, are just a bunch of lazy irresponsible mother f***kers who don’t want America to own up to its responsibilities!

    Those comments not only reveal a “misplaced compassion”, but appear somewhat anti-American too.
    The Minutemen are just trying to protect the nation’s borders because the federal government is completely delinquent at its duty.
    Yet, RGF wrote: the Minutemen are “are just a bunch of lazy irresponsible mother f***kers”.
    Seems to me what the MinuteMen are doing is a lot of hard work by people that care about the millions of illegal aliens trashing our country. What’s wrong with that?
    Yet when it comes to illegal aliens from Mexico, RGF has excuses for all of the crimes by illegal aliens: it is all the fault of Americans.

    Seems to me that your arguments claiming others are un-American and lack compassion, are in fact the best examples of it.

    RGF, your main argument is that U.S. is to blame for most (if not all) of everything and should “SOLUTION is for Mexico to achieve a standard of living more commensurate with our own”.
    While there is blame on both sides of the border, nothing precludes the sovereign rights of either nation to secure their borders and enforce their own laws.
    The crime, societal chaos, and abuse of many systems by illlegal aliens are starting to cause a long over-due crackdown.
    Crimes like the Arizona policeman murdered last week by an illegal alien is part of the motivation.
    Crime is a large part of the problem.
    That does not mean illegal aliens should be mistreated.
    It just means they are not going to be rewarded for disrespecting our laws.

    This issue is high on the American’s list of serious issues.
    70% of Americans want illegal immigration stopped.
    The support and activism is somewhat encouraging as millions of Americans are calling, writing, FAXing,, and E-Mailing their Congress persons and insisting on law enforcement and no amnesty.

    Your other arguments are easy to undermine because they are contradictory, show compassion only for Mexico (what about other illegal aliens?), use the excuse of cost of border security, but ignore the costs of no border security, among the other many common, but easily debunked excuses.

    So we will see.
    Congress is the wild card, since they usually ignore voters (something voters exacerbate by blindly rewarding and re-electing the same incumbent politicians that are selling them out).

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 25, 2007 6:41 PM
    Comment #234345

    d.a.n.

    The only reason it is high on voters issues is because we seeing another “wag the dog” scenario.

    Nothing is going to be done politically!
    Surely you realize that by now. The procedural death of the last bill should have made that clear!

    My concern is that some trumped up useless pork-barrell bill will one day pass and we might actually get our preposterous wall!

    It won’t work and we will have flushed $10 billion down the drain…or worse yet, fed that amount of money to some corrupt insider who is a political supporter of whatever corrupt politician bull-dogs the bill through!

    If that happens, you can sure it will NOT SOLVE the problem. It cannot do that because neither any wall, nor any increase in enforcement even addresses the root cause.

    I am not arguing that we should allow immigration, legal or illegal, simply and solely because we created and fostered the economic conditions that caused the standard of living disparity. I’m really not! I just want more Americans to know and understand how our actions, past and present, relate to the root cause. The root cause is still the disparity itself and untill we address it, the problem will persist as long as there is enough disparity to drive poorer Mexicans to seek the American dream.

    It is this lack of understanding as well as the lazy irresponsibility on the part of the minutemen, that causes me conclude they are not behaving like patriots, but like bigots; and that is NOT an American value!

    You continue to assume it about compassion. It is not. I am NOT making that argument we should act with compassion, either for Americans OR Mexicans. I am saying we need to act with RESPONSIBILITY and with and understanding of the ROOT CAUSE!

    Your SOLUTION will actually make things WORSE, d.a.n., You aaccuse me of acting with more compassion for Mexicans than for Americans and yet what you propose will HURT both sides and you PROUDLY fail to even TRY to understand why.

    Your entire argument hinges on a solution that is guaranteed to make the disparity worse, d.a.n., and therefore…

    That is why your solution is NO solution at all and all your evidence is irrelevent.

    Posted by: RGF at September 25, 2007 7:02 PM
    Comment #234362
    RGF wrote: d.a.n. The only reason it is high on voters issues is because we seeing another “wag the dog” scenario.
    Right. Never mind 3.6 to 25 people murdered EVERY day by illegal aliens (2.0 to 13.6 times higher than normal).
    RGF wrote: Nothing is going to be done politically! Surely you realize that by now. The procedural death of the last bill should have made that clear!
    Maybe. Maybe not. American are really getting upset, and I can’t blame them much. We can only hope that voters translate their disapproval of Do-Nothing Congress into some anti-incumbent voting. If not, then voters will continue to have what they deserve. Too bad innocent people (non-voters) have to also suffer the the American voters irresponsible voting habits.
    RGF wrote: My concern is that some trumped up useless pork-barrell bill will one day pass and we might actually get our preposterous wall!
    I hope so. Border Security is a good thing. Actually, a BILL for half-of-a-fence has already passed.
    RGF wrote: It won’t work and we will have flushed $10 billion down the drain…or worse yet, fed that amount of money to some corrupt insider who is a political supporter of whatever corrupt politician bull-dogs the bill through!
    Again, to speak of money wasted is laughable when U.S. tax payers stand to save a LOT of money by stopping the countless abuses by illegal aliens (not even including the untold cost of crime, displaced jobs, disease, and voter fraud).
    RGF wrote: If that happens, you can sure it will NOT SOLVE the problem. It cannot do that because neither any wall, nor any increase in enforcement even addresses the root cause.
    Not true. If voters wake up in time to stop the inflow of many millions of illegal aliens per year, then it will stop the hemorrhage of the U.S. tax dollars to illegal aliens abusing our many systems, welfare, schools, healthcare, ERs, Medicaid, voting systems, etc., etc., etc., etc.
    RGF wrote: I am not arguing that we should allow immigration,
    Right. Big laugh.
    RGF wrote: … we created and fostered the economic conditions that caused the standard of living disparity [in Mexico] …
    and don’t forget the rest of the world. Right, Americans are responsible for ALL disparity. Didn’t ALL you readers out there know that already? Duh!
    RGF wrote: I am not arguing that we should allow immigration, I’m really not!
    Right. Doth protest too much. If you are a lawyer, I believe your many comments do a real disservice to the profession. Hmmmmmm.
    RGF wrote: I just want more Americans to know and understand how our actions, past and present, relate to the root cause.
    Hmmmm … please not the little things; the little slips; the use of the word: “our” . How revealing?
    RGF wrote: The root cause is still the disparity itself and untill we address it, the problem will persist as long as there is enough disparity to drive poorer Mexicans to seek the American dream.
    We’ll see. Things are clamping down. I believe it is going to get harder and harder to be an illegal alien in the U.S.
    RGF wrote: It is this lack of understanding as well as the lazy irresponsibility on the part of the minutemen, that causes me conclude they are not behaving like patriots, but like bigots; and that is NOT an American value!
    Readers … did you see that? What’s up with so much disdain for Americans ?
    RGF wrote: You continue to assume it about compassion. It is not.
    Again, doth protest too much.
    RGF wrote: I am NOT making that argument we should act with compassion, either for Americans OR Mexicans. I am saying we need to act with RESPONSIBILITY and with and understanding of the ROOT CAUSE!
    Right. And the MinuteMen are RGF wrote: just a bunch of lazy irresponsible mother f***kers who don’t want America to own up to its responsibilities!
    RGF wrote: Your SOLUTION will actually make things WORSE, d.a.n., You aaccuse me of acting with more compassion for Mexicans than for Americans and yet what you propose will HURT both sides and you PROUDLY fail to even TRY to understand why.
    Think so? Then why does it worry you so much?
    RGF wrote: Your entire argument hinges on a solution that is guaranteed to make the disparity worse, d.a.n., and therefore…
    I doubt that. Already I am seeing some good results.
    RGF wrote: That is why your solution is NO solution at all and all your evidence is irrelevent.
    That’s an interesting rebuttal to all arguments: IRRELEVANT! IRRELEVANT! IRRELEVANT! IRRELEVANT! You can’t even spell it right. Are you really a lawyer? Because your arguments are so full of holes it is laughable.

    So, where did you get your law degree?

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 25, 2007 9:05 PM
    Comment #234414

    I’m waaaaaay through attempting to have any dialogue with you, d.a.n.

    This is pure folly. Your *posts* are very much of the masses.

    Posted by: RGF at September 26, 2007 11:29 AM
    Comment #234418

    RGF, That’s fine. I understand your frustration. That is what happens when one’s position is flawed and impossible to defend.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 26, 2007 11:59 AM
    Comment #234767

    d.a.n.


    You mean like when one continues to argue that we should stop the symtoms of the problem bur refuse sto recognize the ROOT CAUSE of the problem?

    Oh, well…forums like this allow even positions as flawed as yours to be posted!

    Posted by: RGF at September 28, 2007 5:57 PM
    Comment #234802
    … problem bur refuse sto recognize the ROOT CAUSE
    What? Have another Jack Daniels and try it again.

    The root causes are known, and there are solutions. It’s now up to the voters to choose. Most voters want border security and illegal immigration stopped. Hopefully, they will vote for politicians that will do that. If not, that is how the problem will get worse.

    QUESTION: Are you saying illegal aliens are using vaild and legal Social Security numbers?
    _____________
    RGF wrote: They can get legal numbers.
    False.

    Please show the proof that illegal aliens can legally get legal Social Security numbers.
    Only a legal non-citizen with a VISA or GREEN CARD (i.e. legal permission to work in the U.S.) can legally receive a legal and valid Social Security Number.

    If an illegal alien receives a legal and valid Social Security Number, it is a mistake by the Social Security Administration and fraud upon the part of the illegal alien (a felony for which Elvira Arellano was arrested and deported). Even if the Social Security Administration is fooled, it is still illegal.

    I would think that a lawyer would understand what the word “illegal” means?

    Where did you say you got your law degree?

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 29, 2007 12:53 AM
    Comment #234916

    d.a.n.

    They can.

    Not only have there been multiple different programs to allow this, but they can also first go get REAL driver’s licenses and then get REAL ss numbers and start paying into the system that they only want to be legitimate part of to begin with, anyway!

    Oddly enough, the strongest oppoenents to these same programs has always people who come down on the side of this issue that you represent!

    That’s seems VERY odd to me. It seems to show that the issue isn’t really about legality at all, but some kind of subconcious, or perhaps fully conscious bigotry. It’s bullshit d.a.n. Plain and simple. I have heard enough from you to believe that you are NOT a bigot. At least not consciously. But, I also see enough PRIDEFULLNESS in your commentary to believe that you simply aren’t seeing the forest for the trees. I wish I could get through to you, but I doubt I ever will.

    However, it looks like your fence is going to be built! What an expensive lesson we are about to learn.

    WHAT A WASTE!!!!!

    Now, let’s see who makes political hay out of this one!

    …and then let’s see how much effect this folly has!

    Posted by: RGF at September 30, 2007 1:09 PM
    Comment #234923
    RGF wrote: d.a.n. They can.
    Prove it. RGF, Illegal aliens can not legally get legal Social Security Numbers. That is a felony and why Elvira Arellano was arrested and deported. Where is your proof? Just because you say so doesn’t make it true.
    RGF wrote: Not only have there been multiple different programs to allow this, but they can also first go get REAL driver’s licenses and then get REAL ss numbers and start paying into the system that they only want to be legitimate part of to begin with, anyway!
    I’m aware of Drivers’ licenses (in some states). Also, only 55% of all illegal aliens pay income taxes.
    RGF wrote: That’s seems VERY odd to me. It seems to show that the issue isn’t really about legality at all, but some kind of subconcious, or perhaps fully conscious bigotry. It’s bullshit d.a.n. Plain and simple.
    How typical. So you have ZERO proof, so you resort to EXCUSE # 04: Racism
    RGF wrote: I have heard enough from you to believe that you are NOT a bigot.
    No, I don’t think so.

    I don’t hate the illegal alien looking for a job.

    I do despise the despicable politicians that despicably pit American citizens and illegal aliens against each other.

    RGF wrote: At least not consciously. But, I also see enough PRIDEFULLNESS in your commentary to believe that you simply aren’t seeing the forest for the trees. I wish I could get through to you, but I doubt I ever will.
    Show me the law or proof that the federal government is providing legal Social Security Numbers to illegal aliens.

    Proof of that I would very much like to see (if it really is true).
    Fraud does not equate to legal.
    Getting SSNs illegally doesn not equate to legal.
    Just having a SSN does not make it legal.
    Illegal aliens can not legally receive legal Social Security Numbers.
    If you can prove otherwise, please do.
    Obtaining Social Security Numbers fraudulently or using someone else’s SSN is a felony.
    So, if it is NOT a felony, then why was Elvira Arellano deported?

    RGF wrote: However, it looks like your fence is going to be built! What an expensive lesson we are about to learn. WHAT A WASTE!!!!!
    I no longer care if the fence gets built or not.

    In fact, I’m recommending it be taken off the table completely.
    Why?
    Because Democrat politicians are using the fence as an excuse to ignore border security and illegal immigration completely.
    That’s because Democrat politicians want an amnesty so they can win seats in Congress.
    Everything takes a back seat to winning seats in Congress.
    And most American are no better.
    The party-lever was the best invention of all created by Democrat and Republican politicians.
    And too many brainwashed American voters are all to eager to pull it, rather than do any thinking for themselves.
    Too many voters lazily pull the party lever, rather than even know who their Senators or Representatives are.
    Too few voters see this manipulation, but no amount of logic and reason can overcome the powerful tendency to pull the party lever.
    However, many (if not all) politicians are experts at capitalizing on the voters’ apathy, complacency, and tendency to lazily pull the party lever.

    Democrat and Republican politicians could secure the borders without a fence if they wanted to.
    But they won’t.
    Even if the fence was taken off the table, the Democrat and Republican politicians would still do nothing.
    Democrat politicians want votes and profits from cheap labor.
    Republican politicians want profits from cheap labor.
    Most Republican politicians only pretend to be for border security and enforcing existing laws. However, the Republican politicians had 8 years to do something about it, and did nothing until the very last minute in Nov-2006 when their poll ratings were in the toilet. Then they voted for a few miles of fence, but no money to build it.

    To be honest, more and more, I am increasingly of the opinion that most American voters will get what they deserve.
    The voters have the government that they deserve.
    After all, look at these re-election rates from 1855 to 2006.
    Even though most voters gave Congress low approval ratings prior to Nov-2006, Congress still enjoyed a 95.6% re-election rate (97.6% from Nov-1996 to Nov-2006).
    Some day, voters may eventually learn arrogant, incompetent, and corrupt government has something to do with rewarding Congress with 97.6% re-election rates.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 30, 2007 3:54 PM
    Comment #234957

    d.a.n.

    Although you appear rather stubborn on this issue, d.a.n., I have always considered your other contributions to be inteligent and well though out.

    That is why I am sure that one day, it will dawn on you that this “immigration issue” you keep reacting to, is merely a political distraction issue. It is WAG-THE-DOG taken to the absurd.

    NEITHER party is about to do ANYTHING AT ALL about this issue. Not only that, but any thing they could do would be for political gain, not for effectiveness. The reason is that the only effective thing they could do, would be to invest in development and economic growth in Mexico and then legalize and regulate the drug traffic so as to prevent the huge profits and the criminal violence and dispair it causes on both sides of the border. These are BOTH far too controversial, politically, to ever gain any traction. Therefore, nothing REAL or EFFECTIVE will ever be done by EITHER party.

    AS long as there is enough economic disparity between Mexico and the U.S., there will be Mexicans willing to take huge risks to get here and become Americans and there also will be employers willing to take advantage of them. No laws or enforcement efforts can change that.

    …Just as no laws or enforcement efforts ever did anything but increase the flow of dangerous drug traffic! The whole war on drugs has become one of the most expensive and in-effective actions our government has ever taken.

    Both of these issues are driven by the same thing: MONEY

    If you don’t believe this, let’s just both watch and see. Time will tell the tale.

    Posted by: RGF at October 1, 2007 2:33 PM
    Comment #234960

    Can’t argue with some of that.
    I am not terribly optimistic that our politicians will do anything to enforce existing laws or secure the borders. Why should they when Congress persons can do what ever they like and still enjoy 97.6% re-election rates (the average between 1996 and 2006)?

    But drugs can be ignored completely, because drug pushers will push them to children.

    However, I’d still like to see proof that illegal aliens can legally receive legal a Social Security Number.

    As for economic disparity, the U.S. is broke. 80% of the population has only 17% of all wealth. The U.S. can not fix all the countries around the world. There are many countries south of Mexico too.

    Yes, all of our problems are due to GREED, complacency, apathy, and laziness.

    That does not mean solutions are impossible. Just unlikely. Our problems are not unsolvable. We simply lack the will to do the right things. That goes for the corrupt government of Mexico too.

    Posted by: d.a.n at October 1, 2007 4:27 PM
    Comment #235005

    I never said our problems were unsolvable.

    My point is that we cannot solve our immigration problems by means of any plan or action that fosters or furthers more economic exploitation.

    If we do that, we make the problem worse not better. We also make the problem last longer.

    There is very simple reality to be learned from this issue:
    WE ARE IN THIS TOGETHER!

    We absolutely MUST start treating our nieghbor, Mexico like a neighbor. Whenever we allow American companies to set up abusive and exploitive maquiladoras, or we ram binding agreements like NAFTA or the Bucaralli agreement down our neighbor’s throats…

    Those actions come back to haunt us. That is what the current state of affairs is with our neighbor. It has to stop.

    Americans are tired of the crime and porousness of the Southern border, but that cannot be fixed by fences or even increased enforcement if it is not also part of fixing the problem of extreme poverty and starvation level dispair in some areas of Mexico. We must INVEST in Mexico rather than continuing to TAKE FROM our neighbor. When we do that, the standard of living will more easily and readily achieve a level where Mexicans will want to stay and prosper at home. Further, even those that do come over, at that point, won’t bother us because they will be here more as economic equals and will be seen as a boon.

    It is the disparity between our two different standsards of living which needs to be addressed.
    But, even if we DON’T do it —-
    The Mexicans already are addresing the problem.

    That is what I mean by Mexico solving this problem for us. If we cannot get the message across to Americans about what is really at the heart of this issue…then at the very least we should get out of the way and let the problem sovle itself. Call it an experiment in “open and free market economy” if that makes you feel better.

    AS for the legitimate social security numbers,
    I’ll let you find out about those programs for yourself.
    My concern with you, is that you seem to feel such an attachement and such pride in the position you have chosen on this issue, that I would be concerned that you might become an opponent to one of the very ways that has the greatest potential to help solve the problem.

    So, you can either find out for yourself or you can take my word for it -
    Social security numbers are being achieved legally by Mexicans who then use them to PAY TAXES.

    Posted by: RGF at October 2, 2007 11:40 AM
    Comment #235013
    RGF wrote: AS for the legitimate social security numbers, I’ll let you find out about those programs for yourself… Social security numbers are being achieved legally by Mexicans who then use them to PAY TAXES.
    As I thought. You made it up and have ZERO proof that illegal aliens can legally get legal Social Security Numbers. If you had it, you would show it. You don’t because you can’t. Posted by: d.a.n at October 2, 2007 2:36 PM
    Comment #235015

    d.a.n.

    sweet Jesus, d.a.n.
    I wouldn’t do that. I have offered you nothing but PROOF from the beginning.

    http://fredfryinternational.blogspot.com/2007/09/how-illegal-aliens-get-social-security.html

    I still do not trust you. I will give you no clues as to my specific identity. This blog is intended that we should identify ourselves only if we choose to. I do not choose to. If I were actually having a civilized and inteligent dialogue with various people, I might choose to reveal myself. We have been engaging in a absolutely SILLY flame war and I do not trust you, or the context, with my identity. That’s my prerogative.

    As for the Social security proof:
    You could just as easily have found plenty of your own proof, but you CHOOSE not to do so because you are so sold on your point of view.

    When it comes to anything that you feel supports your argument, you offer whatever evidence you can find. When it comes to qualifying that evidence or finding the whole picture in a way that CONTRADICTS what you offer…
    You want somebody ELSE to find and offer the evidence. That’s intellectually dishonest, d.a.n.

    That demonstrates a lack of desire on your part for the truth. Rather, it is more important for you to engage in a PRIDEFUL defense of your point of view even if it is not the entire story.

    What I have told you regarding my work with filing tax returns and with various immigration issues comes from EXPERIENCE, d.a.n. You cannot say the same of YOUR point of view.

    Your *posts* contain only the experience of paranoid thinking. The kind of thinking that is rigid and incomplete and ultimately causes grave injustice and human as well as economic EXPENSE.

    I cannot seem to get this through to you, primarily because it appears the truth is less important to you than the PRIDEFUL defense of your incomplete and fractured position. You don’t address the whole story, because you don’t appear to understand the whole story. The more you sell others on this argument of yours, the more you ADD to the problem.

    Time to start caring about TRUTH.
    Time to tune into the WHOLE PICTURE.

    Posted by: RGF at October 2, 2007 2:56 PM
    Comment #235024

    d.a.n.,

    At the time I was involved in assisting with tax filing along the border region, there were actually programs that helped immigrants seek legitimate numbers. There were completely legal.

    The strange thing to note is that the strongest opposition to these programs seems to come from those, such as yourself, who voice such zealous opposition to any form of immigration. It doesn’t appear to be about what is legal or illegal. It appears to be about bigotry!

    Or else, why oppose programs that allow Mexicans to become legal citizens and PAY INTO THE SYSTEM that you and others see them as supposedly taking advantage of?

    You don’t have to dig very far into the kinds of *arguments* that you post or that others post to see the bigotry. It is readily apparent with but a mere scratch of the surface.

    Posted by: RGF at October 2, 2007 4:35 PM
    Comment #235040

    RGF,
    They are not legal.
    U.S. law forbids illegal aliens from legally receiving legal Social Security Numbers.
    The link you showed above states

    “Illegal aliens don’t need to steal or make up a social security number to give to an employer. There is another less illegal way in which the Government issues them a number.”

    That is still fraud and it is still illegal.
    “Less illegal” does not equal “legal”.
    You clearly do not know what you are talking about.

    So that’s your proof that illegal aliens can legally get legal SSNs?

    What law school did you get your degree from?

    You talk a lot about truth, but then you tell lies about the legality of getting a legal Social Security Number.

    Posted by: d.a.n at October 2, 2007 7:18 PM
    Comment #235105

    d.a.n.

    I have told absolutely NO lies.
    INIT numbers are LEGAL. I wish I were editing that site, but I am not. Oh well. But why don’t you inform yourself?

    One of the ways that Mexicans can gain the ability to file legitimate taxes is to form their own companies. I have talked to several who have become their own contractors bidding for work with entities who do construction of homes and commercial structures around the country. Unfortuneatly, although business entity status is meant to create certain protectiions, it allows MORE exploitation by American employers, not less. That is because, while they gain the ability to file returns, they get paid monthly, or worse - a month following their invoicing, rather than weekly and the result is that they get more robbed from them when the employers call in raids rather than paying them for their work!

    I have not been engaged in the tax filing program for awhile but many of the programs employed then for the purpose of achieving legit social security numbers have been pulled back or eradicated entirely. It is part of the same problem I explained to you earlier. Those who appear to be opposed to illegal immigration are actually opposed to LEGAL immigration as well. It nothing but bigotry, d.a.n. Total bullshit basedon paranoia and misguided fear.

    What surprises me most, d.a.n. is that rather than attemting to inform yourself or even to ask yourself questions…
    You have formed an opinion based on half-truths at best and are selling a biggoted idea as a result.

    You’re better than that, d.a.n. so cut the crap.
    INFORM YOURSELF about the total picture on this issue. I know it will blow your mind. But you first have to OPEN that mind and allow the whole truth to be revealed to you.

    It is clear to me that you are spending a great deal of time and energy nit picking to refute me and you are not even caring about actually informing yourself. What I am telling you is the truth, d.a.n. but you don’t want to accept it on any level because to do so means you must let go of your pre-concieved notions and biases.

    I don’t care whether you believe me or not. I DO whether or not you INFORM YOURSELF. Take what I have offered and inform yourself. Don’t just look for some minor inconsistence and then use it to shoot me down. ACTUALLY SEEK ANSWERS.

    WHY will a fence not have the desired effect?

    WHY will immigration, both legal and illegal continue as long as economic disparity exists?

    WHY are both legal and illegal immigrants into our country far more of a boon than burden?

    WHY are social security numbers obtained by them legitimate?

    WHAT will be the EFFECT of increased enforcement of immigration laws?

    If all you do is engage in prideful sophistry, you miss the point entirely. INFORM YOURSELF d.a.n. that means you have to be intellectually honest enough to be willing and able to ARGUE with yourself!

    Posted by: RGF at October 3, 2007 11:28 AM
    Comment #235138
    RGF wrote:You’re better than that, d.a.n. so cut the crap.
    I’ve discovered that those that decry the crap are usually those that produce most of it.

    RGF,
    Illegally obtained Social Security Numbers are not legal.
    U.S. law forbids illegal aliens from legally receiving legal Social Security Numbers.
    The link you provided above states:

      “Illegal aliens don’t need to steal or make up a social security number to give to an employer. There is another less illegal way in which the Government issues them a number.”

    So, since when did “less legal” become legal?

    So why keep pushing this lie?
    If you have evidence that illegal aliens can legally get legal Social Security Numbers, then let’s see it.
    QUESTION: Where’s the proof that illegal aliens can legally get legal Social Security Numbers?
    ANSWER: _____________fill_in_the_blank_______________

    What’s so hard about that?
    How can anything you write be considered credible if you can’t prove what you claim?

    I would think someone claiming to be a lawyer would know what illegal means (that is, if you even really ever studied law).

    THE SOLUTION
    NumbersUSA.com

    Posted by: d.a.n at October 3, 2007 2:26 PM
    Comment #235233

    d.a.n.

    You are reading into it what you want to read into it. INIT numbers are completely legal and legit.

    I’ll cut you a deal:
    I’ll prove to you my story, my experiences and even my law school.

    In exchange:
    You shut down that silly ill-informed web site of yours.

    Deal?

    Posted by: RGF at October 4, 2007 12:25 PM
    Comment #235234

    d.a.n.

    http://www.twmlaw.com/resources/general28cont.htm

    I should point out that this not one of the firms I am in any way associated with. They merely have a good explanation of the ITIN number situation.

    There were other programs in place until a few years ago, but htye have been either curtailed or stopped completely. However, for the reasons I have have explained ad nausium in the past, there is too much invested in the current status quo for there not to be a way.

    You could all the fence you want and spend billions on law enforcement. The status quo will remain.

    The only hopeful thing about this reality is that the situation will eventually solve itself as the standard of living in Mexico rises.

    If that’s the best we can hope for, then let’s at least not get in the way with any silly fences or huge pork-barrel expenses to cater to ill-informed paranoia.

    A BETTER solution would be to actually INVEST in Mexico rather than exploit them. We might foster a wonderful regional economic boom, as well. One that both our nations would benefit from!

    Posted by: RGF at October 4, 2007 12:42 PM
    Comment #235288

    RGF,
    You still have not provided any proof that illegal aliens can legally receive legal Social Security Numbers.
    Thank you for those two links about using ITINs to fraudulently acquire Social Security Numbers.

    Why not just admit it, or show the proof.
    The two links you provided do not prove illegal aliens can legally receive legal Social Security Numbers.

    RGF wrote: I’ll cut you a deal: I’ll prove to you my story, my experiences and even my law school. In exchange: You shut down that silly ill-informed web site of yours. Deal?
    No deal.

    In fact, I am going to add links to those websites to show how SSN fraud is being perpetrated, and send copies of those sites to Senator Tancredo, NumbersUSA.com, and ALIPAC.US.

    I seriously doubt your concern about a fence is the cost. Especially when annual net losses are 7 to 8 times higher than than the initial cost of the fence and the border security costs. And I seriously question whether you have a law degree if you don’t even know the difference between legal and illegal.

    Thanks. Got any more information I can use?

    Posted by: d.a.n at October 4, 2007 6:29 PM
    Comment #235297

    I wrote the following which has been referenced above:

    “Illegal aliens don’t need to steal or make up a social security number to give to an employer. There is another less illegal way in which the Government issues them a number.” - LINK

    Anyone (even a lawyer) who read my entire post would be under no illusion that the process I had explained is illegal.

    I described it as “less illegal” in that they did not steal a number from another person or make one up, the number being issued to them. However, the number is issued by the IRS, not by Social Security, solely for the purpose of paying taxes. However, Illegal aliens are obtaining these taxpayer IDs and them printing them of fake social security cards. They are then able to obtain employment because the employer is presented with what appears to be a real (but still fake) social security card.

    An illegal alien cannot legally obtain a Social Security card. You need no more proof that the simple fact that if they could get one, they all would have one already. Really, they’re not stupid, just illegal. (At least most of them)

    Posted by: Fred Fry at October 4, 2007 7:42 PM
    Comment #235298

    Fred Fry,
    Thanks. That confirms it.

    Posted by: d.a.n at October 4, 2007 7:54 PM
    Comment #235352

    My concern is the cost both poltically AND financially, d.a.n.

    It’s WAG THE DOG

    Again - IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW MUCH COST IS ASSOCIATED WITH WHAT YOU DESCRIBE AS THE PROBLEM!!!

    THE REASON: THE FENCE WILL MAKE THINGS WORSE AND IT WILL COST.

    Let me know what you find out from Tancredo.
    This should be fun … except that politicians aren’t always terribly well versed in the law.
    Still, this should be fun.

    Posted by: RGF at October 5, 2007 12:17 PM
    Comment #235362

    RGF,
    Fred Fry just refuted your statements about SSNs.
    Your comments have little (or no) credibility.
    The cost of the fence is only 8 days of interest on the $9 Trillion National Debt, but it will save 10 times that much annually.
    So the cost argument has no credibility either.
    Border security will stop the current inflow of 2 million illegal aliens per year. If people want to immigrate, get in line behind the 1 Million legal immigrants per year already in line.
    It is doubtful that Americans are going to tolerate another amnesty like the amnesty of 1986 which quadrupled the problem. What ever happens, it is all pointless without enforcing immigration laws and securing the borders. Those two things will most certainly stop 95% (or more) of illegal immigration. If that creates hardships for illegal aliens, that is unfortunate, but it is too bad. The U.S. population is already growing faster than many other nations because it is already admitting 1 million legal immigrants per year. If that’s not enough for some people, that’s just too damn bad. Get in line and wait, but don’t come here marching in our streets demanding rights. That’s going to make Americans more determined than ever to put an end to that “in your face” tactics.

    Posted by: d.a.n at October 5, 2007 2:26 PM
    Comment #235365

    d.a.n.

    You pretend to refute my statements as well but without actually even meeting the argument! So let Fred say what he wants.

    The reason there will always be a legal way for the undocumented alien to gain ss#’s is because you cannot hold somebody legally responsible for paying taxes and then not provide them with means of paying those taxes.

    The same theory is the foundation behind the tax stickers for paying taxes on illegal drug deals which were once part of the legal landscape in Texas. Now they have been replaced with simply allowing such income to be filed as income from “sale of goods or property.” Sounds silly, I know. But as far as the tax issue concerned, perfectly legal.

    That is what you find if you actually explore this issue. Call or write tancredo or any other washington politician if you wish. It won’t change the reality.

    There is a similary powerful argument behind allowing alien children in our schools. You cannot create a legal liability and then deny the means to obey the law. There are strong constitutional concerns as well.

    The more you talk, the weaker you argument gets, d.a.n., but don’t take my word for it. Call Tacredo. Call today.

    I offer you this challenge:
    If you have any intellectual integrity or honesty at all, when you find your answers and finally begin to see the whole picture…

    PERMANENTLY SHUT DOWN YOUR SILLY SITE!

    Posted by: RGF at October 5, 2007 3:04 PM
    Comment #235378

    RGF,
    The web-site stays. In fact, new version are in the works.
    I already forwarded the information to NumbersUSA.com, Alipac.US, and Tancredo. Thank you for providing it.
    So what law school did you go to?
    A refund might be in order since they obviously didn’t teach the difference between legal and illegal.

    Posted by: d.a.n at October 5, 2007 4:27 PM
    Comment #235388

    d.a.n.

    You just plain wrong. There is nothing more I can say. Carry on in ignorance, but these things are de rigour in Immigration Courts EVERY DAY.

    You are just plain wrong.

    Posted by: RGF at October 5, 2007 4:56 PM
    Comment #235397
    RGF wrote: d.a.n. You just plain wrong. There is nothing more I can say. Carry on in ignorance, but these things are de rigour in Immigration Courts EVERY DAY. You are just plain wrong.
    More like Rigor Mortis.

    Then if it is as you say, why was Elvira Arellano arrested and deported?

    Why does Fred Fry confirm illegal aliens can not legally get legal Social Security Numbers?

    So, are you saying everyone else is wrong and you are right?
    While it might be nice to go through life thinking that, it won’t change the truth.
    Your obvious frustration is that your statement is false and your arguements are weak.
    So, why not just admit that no law exists that allows illegal aliens to legally get legal Social Security Numbers?
    What is strange is that you then provided two links to two articles that helped disprove your own statements.
    One article even called it a “less illegal” method.
    And then the person (Fred Fry) that wrote the article you provided a link to even refuted your claim (above).
    Thank you for the information on the abuse of ITINs to get SSNs in a “less illegal” method.

    Then you went on to provide another link as proof that illegal aliens can legally get legal Social Security Numbers.
    Yet it states in the Conclusion section:

    Conclusion:
    The recent efforts by the SSA to limit issuance of SSNs to only aliens who are authorized to work are admirable. Yet the use of counterfeit SSNs continues to surge, as indicated by recent news articles. See, e.g., Bill Wallace, Despite INS, Phony Documents Flood State, U.S., San Francisco Chronicle, May 3, 1999, at A17. The problem has prompted some in Congress to propose making SSNs more counterfeit-resistant. The SSA resists this idea, both because of the $2.5 billion cost to replace current SSNs and because the underlying documents used to obtain a SSN, such as a birth certificate, can themselves be counterfeited. 70 Interpreter Releases 865 (July 2, 1993). Until Congress resolves this policy dilemma, aliens and their employers will have to sort out the complexities involving work SSNs, nonwork SSNs, and ITINs.

    Again, this makes it quite clear that illegal aliens can not legally get legal Social Security Numbers.

    And if you are trying to help illegal aliens, what you are doing here is hurting your cause.

    RGF wrote: If you have any intellectual integrity or honesty at all, when you find your answers and finally begin to see the whole picture…
    You question integrity and honesty, but then you tell a falsehood (above) that illegal aliens can legally get legal Social Security Numbers, never back it up with any evidence, and then insist it is true. So, whose the liar?
    RGF wrote: d.a.n. You just plain wrong.
    You can say someone is “plain wrong” all you like, but saying it doesn’t make it true. And telling lies (i.e. illegal aliens can legally get legal Social Security Numbers) does not lend credibility to your arguments.

    If you really are a lawyer, I don’t think I would ever retain services from a lawyer that doesn’t know the difference between illegal is legal, and especially a lawyer that makes comments like yours above and below:

  • RGF wrote:
    • I would bet my money that one Mexican could outwork any TEN Americans.

    • RGF wrote: The minutemen are allowing themselves to be fooled.

    • RGF wrote: the minutemen are COMPLETELY UNAMERICAN.

    • RGF wrote: Groups like the minutemen are NOT patriots at all.

    • RGF wrote: The minutemen, apparently, are just a bunch of lazy irresponsible mother f***kers who don’t want America to own up to its
  • But, perhaps, it’s all your law school’s fault?
    That law school you went to may owe you a refund.

    SECURE THE BORDERS

    Posted by: d.a.n at October 5, 2007 6:27 PM
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