Misplaced Compassion

Our society has come to revere victims. It is enough for a person to declare herself oppressed to provoke an outpouring of compassion. We currently are feeling the pain of Elvira Arellano, who has been breaking our laws for a decade and was arrested on her way to a rally to brag about her lawbreaking ways.

She was arrested to be sent home to Mexico. Now she and her supporters are crying that she is separated from her son and suffering from having to be in Mexico. Of course, she chose to be separated from her son to make her political point. Her son can come and live with her any time she allows him to come. She just dislikes being in Mexico.

The people who should be insulted are the Mexicans. Elvira Arellano is a native of that country. She worked dead-end menial jobs in the U.S., which she figured is better than anything she can get in her home country. In fact, she evidently considers returning to the country of her birth as a fate analogous to being put into a prison camp and her supporters agree with her. They will move heaven and earth to keep her out of Mexico and in the U.S.

Every immigrant to America thinks the U.S. is better for him/her than wherever they came from. America is the greatest country in the world after all, but I would not think that America is so much better.

Okay, she does not want to go back to Mexico. We know that. There are lots of things people do not want to do. A lot of people call for new laws and rules, but refuse to enforce the ones we go when "compassion" gets in the way. Compassion is a great thing. But it is misplaced when we allow a person to declare herself a victim and then demand a specific remedy even when it is against our laws.

I have never been to Mexico, but I cannot believe it is so terrible a place that it is inhumane to send someone back to the place where she was born.

We have the absolute right to regulate immigration into our country, the fact that we DO not does not change that. Given the opportunity, half the people in the world would move here tomorrow. I understand their motivation, but it would be foolish to let compassion overcome our good sense. Elvira will have to stay in Mexico. How bad can that be? She speaks the language after all. I saw her on TV today, and it is clear that in all the time she spent in our country, she really has not mastered ours.

Posted by Jack at August 20, 2007 9:39 PM
Comments
Comment #230053

Unfortunately, this is a major problem with our immigration system. The laws need to be changed so that the children of illegal immigrants are themselves illegal immigrants, otherwise we’ll have these endless chain reactions.

Now you can come here illegally, give birth to a child (with your hospital bills paid courtesy of the American taxpayers) who is automatically considered a full US citizen. Then you begin arguing why you, your spouse, and eventually your parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, and cousins all need to live in the US too.

Posted by: Loyal Opposition at August 20, 2007 10:39 PM
Comment #230054

Man, that VOA story is an example of lazy reporting. What church gave her sancturary? How long has she been in the country? Who sponsored the rally? How many people were there? How did the INS know she was there? Most of these details are not hard to learn.

Anyway, here’s a much better story from the Chicago Tribune.

Posted by: Gerrold at August 20, 2007 10:43 PM
Comment #230057

Mexico is a great place to live … because they are supporting our immigration issues and allowing the citizens that need state help to find work in the U.S. What would be their entitlement problem are largely our mouths to feed until we fix the problem. Hopefully in 2009 we’ll see progress here from one part or the other.

Posted by: Honest at August 20, 2007 10:52 PM
Comment #230060

LO,

Actually, it seems you’d have to amend the Constitution to void the citizenship rights of people born here, not just change the law. SCOTUS has already ruled that children of illegal aliens born here already pass the two tests: being born here and being under U.S. jurisdiction.

Frankly, taking that right away makes me uncomfortable. Remember the Fourteenth Amendment was passed to kill the notion that Blacks could not be citizens. We had the good fortune to be born here; I hate the notion of introducing lineage.

Posted by: Gerrold at August 20, 2007 11:01 PM
Comment #230062

Breaking up families.Three cheers for compasionate conservatism !


LO
Just exactly what did YOU do to become an American citizen other than be born here?

Posted by: BillS at August 20, 2007 11:09 PM
Comment #230063

Gerrold, I agree we really don’t need to amend the constitution. We should enforce the laws though. This woman entered the country illegally twice and evaded a deportation order for ten years. She has now been deported again and hopefully will never be allowed legal entry now as it is obvious she has no respect for the laws of the United States.

Shall we also go into the cases of the NJ murder victims of an illegal alien? Or how about this list?

I think that it is well beyond time to enforce the laws first, and then deal with looking at our immigration laws second.

Posted by: Rhinehold at August 20, 2007 11:13 PM
Comment #230064

LO…you might want to read this again…it comes up every time illegal immigration is the subject.
http://federalistblog.us/2005/12/birthright_citizenship_fable.html

Posted by: Sandra Davidson at August 20, 2007 11:14 PM
Comment #230065

BillS,

We do it ALL the time when we put US Citizens in jail for breaking the law. Why should this woman be given special treatment for violating the laws twice and evading a deportation order for ten years?

Posted by: Rhinehold at August 20, 2007 11:15 PM
Comment #230074

Jack said: “Our society has come to revere victims.”

That sure was a hyperbolic statement. And all along Republicans have said we revere success. Success and victim seem to be antithetical. Which is true? I personally think success is far more revered in our society than being a victim.

This recommendation of this article of yours Jack, I happen to agree with entirely. What I object to is your callous portrayal of this woman’s plight and that of her son’s. I have been to Mexico several times, along the border, and yes, it is pretty bad if you walk down some of the side streets off the main thoroughfare.

I see no hypocrisy nor dissonance in both demanding that we uphold the rule of law and prevent hordes (meaning millions) of people to flaunt our laws and come and go as they please from our nation, AND maintaining our sensitivity and compassion for folks who feel driven to circumstances such as Elvira Arellano finds herself in.

I believe she should be sent back. I regret what that means for her and possibly her son. I regret that American resources are not sufficient to take all who wish to come here to live. I don’t regret however, that persons who violate the laws of a host nation, are subject to punitive measures for breaking those laws. I believe breaking unjust laws is a moral obligation and imperative. But, I also believe that when one breaks them, one has the obligation to accept the consequences whether they choose to or not.

I cannot imagine going to another country, violating their laws, and then attending a demonstration to reverse the law I broke. That, in my opinion is the height of stupidity and folly if one is not prepared to suffer the consequences of such action. Elvira Arellano deserves to be deported. She brought the decision as to what to do with her American citizen son, upon herself.

Yet, as a parent, I can empathize what she must be going through. She gambled and she lost. Just as the miner owner in Utah gambled on the danger of exit mining, and lost. All people gamble. When one buys insurance, one gambles on experiencing an insured loss. It would be foolish to pay premiums if you believed you wouldn’t experience an insured loss. Folks have to be held accountable for their gambling. We all gamble. Just on different outcomes and risk levels.

But, as gamblers all, we should not lose our sense of empathy for those who gamble and lose on a better life for themselves and their children. That is a gamble we all partake in, one way or another, through a host of decisions in our lives (career choice, selection of friends, partners, and mates).

Posted by: David R. Remer at August 21, 2007 12:39 AM
Comment #230076


The best way to enforce the law is to concentrate on the employers wheither they are consertative Republican owners of a construction company or yuppy liberals just hiring a maid.

Every candidate for Congress and the presidency should be asked every day of the campaign if they are going to go after the employers.

I am against the illegal immigrations because it puts Americans out of work and drives down the wages of most of us.

I have a hard time understanding why many Republicans are against it though. Bill Clinton signed NAFTA but it was crafted by the Reagan and Bush I Administrations. For all intents, NAFTA created one big country from the Panama Canal to the Artic Circle. Now the wealthy land owners in Mexico and Central American have a place to send their excess citizens and a new source of revenue. Things are quiter down there now, not to many revolutions.

Posted by: jlw at August 21, 2007 12:49 AM
Comment #230077

“Things are quiter down there now, not to many revolutions.”

it would seem that they have moved the revolution… northward.

Posted by: diogenes at August 21, 2007 12:57 AM
Comment #230078

BillS said: “Breaking up families.Three cheers for compasionate conservatism !”

HogWash !!! Elvira Arellano has a choice to make, take her son back to Mexico with her, or, leave him with trusted folks here in the U.S. It is a choice she created for herself. It is a choice which I as a parent have much empathy and compassion for her in making it. I cannot imagine a more difficult choice for a parent to make.

But, I am no conservative, nor Republican. I am an American citizen who believes in the rule of law, and each individual assuming the responsibility and consequences of that law by their actions to abide by it or violate it.

I don’t buy your criticism of Republicans as heartless or lacking in compassion for their desire to see our laws enforced. Now, I grant you, many Republicans are not truly committed to upholding our rule of law, GW Bush comes to mind, DeLay, Enron’s CEO, planned parenthood bombers, and many more. But, the same can be said of some Democrats like Rep. Jefferson, Bill Clinton on truth telling under oath, etc. But, the exceptions do not make the rule.

Many law abiding and upholding Republicans have left the Republican Party in recent years to join the ranks of Independents demanding better of politicians and government. They are neither lacking in compassion, nor desire for consistent and fair application of the rule of law.

Elvira Arellano broke the law. She assumed the consequences for breaking it the day she broke it. I feel for her, but, I am not about to abrogate our rule of law Constitutional government out of empathy for the difficult circumstances she chose to put herself and her son in.

There is a ratio here, or rational, argument to be made here, in which the rule of law is by far, more important than the plight of one woman who chose to break it. That law regarding legal entry into our country was neither unfair, imprudent, nor harsh. Elvira Arellano may believe her cause is more important than our Constitutional system, but, she would be irrational to think so.

We can empathize with her emotional parental desire to provide better for her son than she could in Mexico. But, that is not a rational argument in defense of not having to assume the consequences of breaking a host nation’s laws.

Posted by: David R. Remer at August 21, 2007 12:57 AM
Comment #230079

This is the one issue that I disagree with the Green Party and ‘liberals’ in general the most. Simply put we cannot allow our borders to be porous. The amazing thing, to me, is that very very few progressives are willing to stand up and say that being weak on illegal immigration hurts labor and hurts working Americans. I don’t know why the Green Party and the Democratic Party, both thought to be on the left, cannot understand that if they actually crackdown on these companies that hire illegal immigrants and crackdown on illegal immigrants themselves that working Americans and organized labor will come and cheer them on greatly. Too bad its never gonna happen.

Posted by: Richard Rhodes at August 21, 2007 1:04 AM
Comment #230080

jlw, you are ignoring the vast underground economy which can still employ millions of illegal immigrants. Going after legal employers, does nothing to stem the tide from seeking employment with illegal employers ranging from upper middle class parents hiring nannies off the books to the drugs, prostitution, gambling, and shake down employers, not to mention the ever burgeoning industries in identity theft and fraud to access other people’s money.

In fact, basic economics would indicate that shutting illegal immigrants out of work with legitimate employers, will only increase the demand for and thus, the willingness to work for, lower wages in the illegal employment underground economy. In a real sense creating a demand driven growth in illegal activity throughout our country.

This is why an enforceable border barrier that blocks 90 or more percent of illegal immigrants from even trying to cross is as essential to solving the illegal immigration problem as going after registered employers is.

Posted by: David R. Remer at August 21, 2007 1:05 AM
Comment #230083

you’re on point tonight, david…

only, stemming the flow of illegals is surely one of *the single most important problems* facing us. going after employers is of the *second*, but substantially less important tier.

these employers certainly should be punished, starting with the largest and most reprehensible violators, and working on down to those who employ illegal maids…

but when a patient is lying bleeding to death on the operating table, you don’t waste much time assessing the cause and prescribing post trauma medication…. until you have first stopped the bleeding!!!!!

it is these complacent, covetous, and complicit politicians who all fairly well intend on bleeding us to death, who would have us first bicker and squabble over the most minute details of how to entirely and ultimately cure our condition before making any action, whatsoever.

Posted by: diogenes at August 21, 2007 1:29 AM
Comment #230085

Elvira Arellano, the illegal immigrant activist recently arrested in Los Angeles and deported to Mexico is far from the typical poor immigrant mother. She had been claiming sanctuary in a Chicago Church to avoid deportation since early 2006. Though much of the media attention has been focused on her recent deportation back to Mexico, this illegal immigrant has done fairly well for herself.
She formed and headed the United Latino Family organization in Chicago which lobbies Congress for immigrant rights. It is claimed that there are more than three million U.S.-born children that could face separation from their illegal parents through deportation in the United States. This organization fights for the rights of those children and their illegal alien parents. Perhaps, the estimated three million figure is correct. Yet this poses a serious problem. According to estimates based upon Census figures there were approximately six million illegal aliens in the United States in 2000. This would lead one to believe, then, that illegal immigrant men wishing to provide for their families are not simply moving back and forth across the border for employment purposes as some from the “unconcerned crowd” have implied, but rather they are bringing and starting families here in America. This is supported by documentation on illegal immigration found at the website:
statemaster.com
According to figures, thirty-eight of the fifty states have illegal immigrant populations of ten thousand or more. The top ten states as of 2000 were listed as follows:
1 California 2,209,000
2 Texas 1,041,000
3. New York 489,000
4. Illinois 432,000
5. Florida 337,000
6. Arizona 283,000
7. Georgia 228,000
8. New Jersey 221,000
9. North Carolina 206,000
10. Colorado 144,000
It is interesting that only three of the top ten states having the highest concentration of illegal immigrants actually border Mexico. As an Illinoisan, I was somewhat astounded at the number of illegals breaking our immigration laws while taking up residence in my state. I understand the City of Chicago is quite pro-illegal immigration in its views, which seems to be typical of the mostly liberal blue states. It is also interesting that illegal immigrants in massive numbers are taking up residence in those states that provide the most popular, and electoral votes. Perhaps, this is one reason why politicians are so lax in trying to correct immigration problems.
The story of Elvira Arellano brought a lot of insight into how a liberal political activist can become quite successful in the United States, regardless of illegality. Not only did Elvira Arellano become President of The United Latino Family, but she was also the third person on the 2006 Time Magazine “People Who Mattered Most” list, just behind Jack Abramoff and Muqtada Al Sadr. Time Magazine was not the only one paying special interest to her defiance of immigration law, however. The get-out-the-Latino-vote in liberal-dominated Chicago, Illinois also used images of her and her son to promote increased Latino voting in 2006. Perhaps, the Chicago-bred Hillary Clinton, and Illinoisan Barak Obama could sing a duet of the Oak Ridge Boys’ song “Elvira” commemorating this illegal Chicago hero at the Democratic National Convention.

JD

Posted by: JD at August 21, 2007 2:07 AM
Comment #230086

DR

We are already seeing crops rot in the fields. Many farmers are even not planting as much or planting at all.There are pilot programs to use prison slaves to help out but they are limited. The guest worker program we do have is capped,expensive and beset by beuracratic delays.I am a labor guy. My first reaction is to think that if farmers paid decent wages they would be able to get workers no trouble. Of course they would pass at least some of the cost on to consumers. Sounds simple. The rub is that they have to compete with forign imports that limit how much they can charge. Would you buy a peach for a buck you could get for fifty cents?Globalization ties in with immigration.

Posted by: BillS at August 21, 2007 2:17 AM
Comment #230089

yes bill, yes it certainly does. indeed, they go hand in hand. export the jobs that can be exported, import the labor for those that remain. f*** the middle(class)man. they’ll have us all on welfare, until we are so desperate as to accept the slave wages currently being paid out to foreigners.

go global.

Posted by: diogenes at August 21, 2007 2:39 AM
Comment #230091

You can pick a lot of lettuce for the $70 billion (or more) in net losses to taxpayers (annually).

Unfortunately, Republicans had the majority of Congress for a decade and did not attempt to try to do anything about illegal immigration until their poll numbers started looking bad in late 2006. So, Republicans have not and are not serious about doing anything about illegal immigration. After all, how many decades does it take?

And Democrats are worse when it comes to illegal immigration. All you have to do is look at their voting records. Democrat politicians think all those illegal aliens will become Democrat voters. They don’t care what the impacts on existing voters.

And why should politicians of either party care when:

  • most voters repeatedly reward and re-elect 90% to 95% of Congress since 1996 ?

  • 40% to 50% of voters don’t even bother to vote

  • most voters blindly pull the party lever; not even knowing exactly who they are voting for as long as they are in THEIR party

  • most voters don’t even know who there state and federal senators and representatives are

The nation has a bigger illegal employer problem than an Illegal immigration problem.
There would not be so many if it were not for all the magnets and existing laws being total ignored.

State governments can’t easily do anything because the federal government has tied their hands and the states do not want to bear the costs of enforcing the laws that the federal government is supposed to be enforcing.

The federal government is failing at one of its most fundamental duties. Yet, the majority of voters (i.e. the 60% of 200 million eligible voters that even bother to vote) repeatedly reward and re-elect the same politicians that despicably pit American citizens and illegal aliens against each other.

There is a clever game that Democrat and Republican politicians play.
They each pick issues to champion.
Yet NEITHER are serious about solving problems, as evidenced by the Republicans waiting until the last minute to address illegal immigration, voting for a portion of a fence, and no funding to build it. And what have the Democrats accomplished since 7-Nov-2007?

Repeatedly rewarding and re-electing irresponsible, corrupt, bought-and-paid-for incumbent politicians won’t do anything but make them more irresponsbile and corrupt.

Govenrnment will NOT become more responsible until the voters do too, and that’s not likely to change until the consequences of so much fiscal and moral bankruptcy finally becomes too painful.

Posted by: d.a.n at August 21, 2007 3:00 AM
Comment #230092

d.a.n: I thought you were gone, I am glad to see you back man.

Posted by: Richard Rhodes at August 21, 2007 3:41 AM
Comment #230095

Have any one of you actually dealt with the paperwork, the $$$, the no-nothing immigration employees, and the plain frustration of attempting to get legal residency for a relative who lives in a foreign country? Unless you have, you don’t know how utterly impossible it is…families often have to wait up to 10 years, at which time some of their children turn into adults and then have to start the process all over on their own behalf…not compassionate, not good for families.

If your family is starving (which I doubt any families of those posting here are), you will do anything in your power to feed them…including crossing borders. We need to re-evaluate what NAFTA and CAFTA have done in our name to foreign workers. It isn’t pretty…but then, starvation seldom is.

Posted by: Rachel at August 21, 2007 8:02 AM
Comment #230096

Rachel,

Yes, I know what you mean. Bummer eh?
How dare the U.S. not let everyone come here?

It’s not easy to be one of the millions out of billions trying to immigrate to the U.S.

Sure, NAFTA and CAFTA are bad for many. It makes you wonder why the politicians in BOTH countries cooked that up, and voters in BOTH countries tolerate it (even reward them for it with perpetual re-election)? So, it appears it is not just our crooked politicians. The voters must like it too since they repeatedly reward and re-elect politicians for it (90% to 95% re-election rates in Congress since 1996).

You are right. The U.S. is a big country. It can take on millions more (maybe billions). How dare some in the U.S. want to keep it all to themselves.

Sure. The U.S. should just open the borders wide-open. But wait. Aren’t they already? So what’s the problem? Just do like millions of others. Come here illegally. Our government actually wants that. Democrats want votes and Republicans want cheap labor, and neither will ever seriously enforce existin laws. So I wouldn’t worry too much about doing it legally. Especially when it is totally unnecessary.
No passport or permission? No problem. And when you get here, be sure to visit the welfare office, along with 32% of other illegal aliens that receive welfare. But please don’t break other laws, because our prisons are already overflowing with illegal aliens (29% of the 2.2 million incarcerated are illegal aliens).

After all, the world population is only growing by 249,000 persons per day!
That’s only 10,375 persons per hour, 173 per minute, 2.88 per second!

The world population is now only 6.7 billion.
It is predicted to be a paltry 10 to 13 billion by 2039.

But, if we work hard at it, and continue to import the impoverished and less educated, we could even surpass China or India (or combined), and help push the world population up to 26 billion by 2039. Then the U.S. could also have all the many advantages of population that China and India now enjoy.

Also, an added benefit of increased population is that even world wars, plagues, and natural disasters can’t even put a dent in the population (or growth).

  • The world population in year 1 A.D. was about 250 million people.

  • The world population in year 1492 was about 500 million people.

  • The world population in 1804 was 1.0 billion people.

  • The world population in 1922 was 2.0 billion people (doubled in 118 years; increasing on average by about 23,000 per day).

  • The world population in 1959 was 3.0 billion people (increased by 1.0 billion in only 37 years; increasing on average by about 74,000 per day).

  • The world population in 2006 was 6.68 billion people (more than doubled in 47 years; increasing now by 249,000 persons per day!).

  • The world population by 2039 could be 13 billion (only 33 years from now; increasing by 1.1 million per day!).

  • In 1959, there were 12.16 acres per person (i.e. 36.48 billion acres / 3 billion people).

  • In 2006, there were 5.46 acres per person (i.e. 36.48 billion acres / 6.68 billion people).
    By 2039, there may be only 2.81 acres per person (i.e. 36.48 billion acres / 13 billion people).
However, consider that there is only 12 million square miles (7.68 billion acres) of arable (farmable) land. And, ignore for a moment that arable land is being lost at a rate of 38,610 square miles per year. That is, lets assume no arable land is being lost for the next 33 years. Then …
  • In 2006, there was 1.15 acres of arable land per person (i.e. 7.68 billion acres / 6.68 billion people).

  • By 2039, there may be only 0.59 acres of arable land per person (i.e. 7.68 billion acres / 13 billion people).

However, arable land is being lost at the rate of over 38,610 square miles (24.7 million acres) per year. Therefore …
  • By 2039, there may will be a whopping 0.53 acres of arable (farmable) land per person (i.e. 6.865 billion acres / 13 billion people). But that is not a concern, because technology will save us so that we can learn how to grow much more food on much less land.

  • At the current rate of loss of 38,610 square miles per year of arable land, and even if the population did not grow any larger, ALL arable land could be lost in 310 years (12 million square miles / 38,610 square miles per year)! So we have plenty of time to figure out how the planet will support billions more by 2039.
Therefore, if we are successful in this new population race, we could easily get it down to 0.26 acres per person by 2039 (only 32 years). Perhaps we should have a procreation holiday like Russia? Hmmmm … I think some nations must have already had that holiday for a while? Also, if we open our borders, we could significantly increase the importation of the less educated and impoverished, and simultaneously put an end to illegal immigration. We may even be able to quadruple the U.S. population by 2039?

There are a LOT of things that can be done to win this population race!

Posted by: d.a.n at August 21, 2007 9:52 AM
Comment #230104

BillS asked: “Would you buy a peach for a buck you could get for fifty cents?”

Yes! If the 50 cent peach came from China and the 1.00 peach came from Georgia. That is precisely why we need (POO) point of origin labeling which Republicans and Democrats alike in government have blocked every step of the way. All trade agreements should require that the foreign exporters LABEL their exports point of origin or their products DON’T get into America. It is not a problematic action. But, like D.a.n. says, there is no incentive for politicians lean on the profiters of exporters and importers lobbyists if voters reelect politicians with or without POO labeling.

Posted by: David R. Remer at August 21, 2007 10:14 AM
Comment #230106

She broke the law got caught and shipped back to Mexico. She came in again illegal, dropped a kid and now wants to stay here. She her and the kid back to Mexico. Next time if she comes back throw her ass in jail, and adopt the kid out. She doesn’t care about the kid, just using it to stay in the states.

Posted by: KT at August 21, 2007 10:20 AM
Comment #230107

JD, your attempt to lay the illegal immigration problem at the feet of Democrats is pure political BS. Republicans who acquired power in 1994 and held it until the present, have not made a single comprehensive move to halt illegal immigration at the border. Token efforts to call off their constituents is all they were good for. But, it failed, and Republicans lost Congress in 2006 partly as a consequence of this issue.

Illegal immigration is a problem BOTH the duopoly parties must take responsibility for. What you say about Democrats is all true. But, it is blindly partisan to fail to acknowledge in the same comment the enormous contribution to the problem by Republicans who sought to protect the Republican voting employers of illegal immigrants, a good number of which also are responsible for the vast underground economy estimated at 1 Trillion dollars a year in undocumented trade and sales.

Posted by: David R. Remer at August 21, 2007 10:24 AM
Comment #230108

diogenes said: “[Politicians] who would have us first bicker and squabble over the most minute details of how to entirely and ultimately cure our condition before making any action, whatsoever.”

How very, very true. If only voters would exercise their democratic right to vote out politicians whose results disappoint, opening the way for challengers who out of self-interest, would not want to replicate the record of their predecessors which got them the boot, America would actually begin to solve more problems than politicians create for us.

Posted by: David R. Remer at August 21, 2007 10:28 AM
Comment #230112

Richard, Thanks!

David Remer, POO? Yikes! I’m not sure I want any POO on my peaches!
Seriously, the governments’ position on this comes as no surprise. Almost everything (if not everything) our politicians do reveal sinister motivations. They only care about profits, cheap labor (Republican & Democrat politicians) and votes (Democrat politicians), preserving their power, opportunities for self-gain, and retaining their cu$hy incumbencies, as evidenced by their inaction on illegal immigration for many decades, ignoring existing laws, ignoring the constitution, and pursuing their own self-gain while ignoring the nation’s problems growing dangerously in number and severity; threatening the future and security of the nation.

Jack wrote: Our society has come to revere victims.
Sort of. What is at work is divisiveness. And some are all to willing to wallow in it. It serves to emphasize our differences, rather than unity. Why is that? Could it be that someone has a motive to fuel it?

Nobody wants to be American or speak English.
They want to be [Fill in the blank]-American.

Compassion? From corrupt, bought-and-paid-for politicians?

  • Where is the compassion for U.S. citizens that go without healthcare and access to ERs because ERs and hospitals are over-flowing with illegal aliens (of which many don’t pay)? Is this fair to U.S. tax payers?

  • Where is the compassion for the truly needy U.S. citizens that can not get help because of limited resources, because 32% of illegal aliens receive welfare ?

  • Where is the outrage of the greedy employers of illegal aliens; a manifestation of unchecked greed?

  • Where is the compassion for the U.S. victims and survivors of crimes perpetrated by illegal aliens (29% of all incarcerated in federal prisons are illegal aliens), and the crime rates are rising.

  • Where is the compassion for U.S. Americans who’s lives have been changed forever by illegal aliens that spread disease ? One illegal alien in Santa Barbara, California infected 56 other people with tuberculosis as reported on April 24, 2004, by the Santa Barbara Press-News, “Anatomy of an Outbreak”. Because illegal alien migration into the USA continues unabated for the past 20 years, we now have 16,000 new cases of incurable MDR tuberculosis in the past five years. We suffer 7,000 new cases of leprosy. We tolerate 100,000 new cases of hepatitis “A” in our society. Chagas Disease, which affects 14 million South Americans and kills 50,000 annually, streams across our borders as unchecked thousands of them enter our society. If your child goes to public school, they could be exposed, as thousands already have been.

  • Where is the compassion for the people murdered every day by an illegal alien (Source: GAO-05-646R based on study group of 55,322 illegal aliens over a 57 year period)

  • Where is the compassion for the U.S. tax payers net losses of over $70 billion per year due to all the numerous problems stemming from illegal immigration ?

  • In view of all that above, how could anyone use the excuse that the U.S. would crumble (economically) without cheap labor? You can pick a lot of lettuce with the $70+ billion in annual net losses.

  • Where is your compasssion for the millions of displaced American workers?

  • Where is the compassion for all of the U.S. policemen murdered by illegal aliens? On 13-Nov-2005, Brian Jackson, a Dallas policeman was shot and killed by an illegal alien, Juan Lizcano. Lizcano had become drunk and went to the home of his ex-girfriend to threaten her. As the police pursued Lizcano after he fled the woman’s home, he shot Officer Jackson, who died later in the hospital. Officer Jackson was remembered by his fellow police as someone who loved his job and always went the extra mile. In Denver, Colorado, an illegal deliberately ran over a Denver polceman in a school cross walk “breaking his legs along with severe internal injuries. This is not anectdotal. This tragedy has occurred over and over in many cities across the U.S. Those are crimes that should have never happened.

But what is truly despicable is our own elected officials that pit American citizens and illegal aliens against each other.

But, the voters repeatedly reward and re-elected irresponsible politicians for it. So, why should irresponsible politicians become responsible?

Posted by: d.a.n at August 21, 2007 10:46 AM
Comment #230113

By the way, Elvira Arellano also was arrested for Social Security fraud. If an American citizen did that, they would be in jail (that is, unless they are a pedophile, rapist, or politician with a pardon … who also seem to have immunity).

Posted by: d.a.n at August 21, 2007 10:51 AM
Comment #230115


David R. If POO labeling was implemented it would it not seriously hamper one of the basic reasons for NAFTA, the bypassing of U.S. food and product safety regulations. When NAFTA was being written, I’m sure that some invloved knew that the government would not have the resources to check everything coming into the country.

Lead paint on Chinese toys is not a new thing. They have been busted for it before. Manufactures can clean their act up for a while until the government inspectors start looking elsewhere.

Posted by: jlw at August 21, 2007 10:57 AM
Comment #230117

David,

While I agree that Republicans have also been slow to act on this issue, I give pretty pertinent reason as to why. Illegals are filling up in states that have the largest popular and electoral votes. Republicans do not want to create a huge liberal whine of tossing mothers out without their babies.
Do you not remember the phrase throwing babies out with the bathwater in the 90’s?
Liberals are far worse in immigration than Republicans. The way liberal Chicago, and the media embraced this illegal immigrant woman is despicable and embarrassing, and represents the huge problem Republicans have in doing anything at all about this issue.
Lest I remind you, it was conservative Republican talk radio and an uprising within the Republican Congress that prevented the passing of amnesty for illegals. Without Republican outcry, specifically among ultra-conservatives, illegals would have free reign, along with free everything else, in the United States.

JD

Posted by: JD at August 21, 2007 11:16 AM
Comment #230118
Yes, I know what you mean. Bummer eh? How dare the U.S. not let everyone come here?

Don’t give me an agenda to which I’ve not signed on…I pointed out that it is extremely difficult, timewise and $$$-wise to get a legal visa to come to the US…

Take a look at the number of Iraqi refugees who’ve been allowed to come to the US…and that is an emergency situation…Sweden has taken in more Iraqi refugees than the US…Syria has taken around 2 million refugees…the US does not take care of its messes around the world, but relies on other countries to pick up the ruined lives…

NAFTA ruined Mexican farmers’ (and their families) lives…and now the US is paying for that policy…but still refuses to take any responsibility (and the Mexican government isn’t exactly producing a robust economy, either…) Maquiladoras which once employed thousands in the border region have gone to China…leaving mroe Mexicans unemployed…a great number of these were US corporations…

Posted by: Rachel at August 21, 2007 11:23 AM
Comment #230123

Rachel,

You came to the wrong person if you think I’m going to defend my government’s corrupt and irresponsible actions.
My hypocrisy only goes so far.
I know our government is corrupt and irresponsible.
I know our government meddles in foreign affairs.
I know our government is FOR-SALE and controlled by a very few that abuse vast wealth can power to influence and control.

Unfortunately, the majority of voters repeated reward and re-elect the same people in that government (over and over), despite no one that can name 10, 20, 50, 100, 200, or even 268 (half of 535) in Congress that are responsible and accountable.
They are programmed to pull the party-lever.

And Mexico is no better. Mexico is even more corrupt than the U.S. In fact, the Mexican government encourages it citizens to come to the U.S. illegally so that they will continue to send billions back to Mexico annually.

Still, your comments seem to imply that the U.S. should make it easier to immigrate (that it is too difficult). Unfortunately, the U.S. is not obligated to make it easy if it does not want to. Besides, the U.S. already immigrates millions annually (not even counting the illegal immigrants). And like I said, why come here legally when you can come here illegally without and fear of deportation?

So you are in luck.
If you want to come here, just do it. Nobody will stop you. In fact, once you get here, you will be rewarded with free medical, free access to ERs, free sanctuary, false documents and IDs, free welfare, free education for your children, no taxes (i.e. get paid under the table), no need for auto insurance, and if ever arrested for murder, rape, theft, etc. you will be released faster than you can say illegal alien.

As for China (with 1.3 billion people) and India (with 1.1 billion people), compared to the U.S. (with 302 million people) and Mexico (with 108 million people), China and India have so many people willing to work for so much less, corporations are moving there in droves. So that problem affects workers all over the planet.

However, while some may think that is an advantage and we should emulate China and India, they should ask China and India about all the advantages of over-population. We should not want to follow in their billions of footsteps.

Unfortunately, the voters in both nations don’t get it. They bitch and complain and bitch and complain, but don’t ever hold their elected officials accountable, and then wonder why the voters are being used and abused. Unfortunately, the voters are getting what they deserve as long as the empower and reward the cheaters for cheating them.

Posted by: d.a.n at August 21, 2007 11:49 AM
Comment #230126

billS

seems the son should have been deported too, according to the link posted by sandra. thanks sandra, i knew there had to be a silver linning somewhere.


rachel

sorry but not everyone that wants to, can come here, and beaking our immigration laws because they need work is still illegal. by your standards i should be able to not pay my taxes or ignore any other law i don’t like. BTW, are you saying that gov’t beauracrats can be unresponsive, and incompetent, that says volumes about all the other gov’t run offices we have to deal with on a regular basis. sure makes ya feel good inside, doesn’t it.

david

poo labeling, exellent point if i knew where my food was produced and had a choice i too in most cases would pay a little extra to buy american. i hadn’t paid much attention to that, but seems i’ll have to start.

Posted by: dbs at August 21, 2007 12:11 PM
Comment #230127
In 2006, a total of 1,266,264 persons became LPRs of the United States The majority of new LPRs (65 percent) already lived in the United States when they were granted lawful permanent resi-dence. Nearly two-thirds (63 percent) were granted permanent residence based on a family relationship with a U.S. citizen or legal permanent resident of the United States.

So, if you’re not already living here, or have a relative living here, or have a skill totally necessary for the US economy to survive (like basketball player), you will find it difficult in the extreme to even apply for residency, no matter how worthy you might be…

If our population doesn’t grow, then social security will be in even more dire straits…why? because citizens aren’t replacing themselves!!

Posted by: Rachel at August 21, 2007 12:12 PM
Comment #230128

dbs

by your standards i should be able to not pay my taxes or ignore any other law i don’t like.

I said nothing of the sort…that came from your own wayward thinking, I’m afraid…I never said I supported illegal immigration, but I do understand the reality of why it exists!! I don’t condone any portion of the Iraq War, either, but I understand how it came about…

Posted by: Rachel at August 21, 2007 12:15 PM
Comment #230129

rachel

it exists because the mexican gov’t would rather export its poor, than deal with its own internal problems. it exists because for decades the US gov’t has refused to keep it in check, ie vigorously enforce the laws, and the border, and there are plenty of culprits on both sides of the aisle. the first step is to go after the employers, fines up to jail time for CEOs would send a clear messege, second is to stop as much of it at the border as possible. there will always be a few who will get through and find refuge, but the majority of it will be eliminated through attrition. once thats done then we look at a reasonable way to allow the foreign workers needed to fill jobs that can’t be filled by amricans, and make sure that they go home afterwards. the only ones who should be allowed to stay permanently are those who choose to become US citizens.

Posted by: dbs at August 21, 2007 12:32 PM
Comment #230130

dbs,

You ignore the obvious option of finding and deporting those here illegally. It is reported that doing so would cost 1.1 billion dollars.

Posted by: Rhinehold at August 21, 2007 12:40 PM
Comment #230132

Rhinehold

i don’t for a second believe that we can find an deport all 12 mil. in one shot. what i suggest is that if you cut off the job supply, and actually make the effort to close the borders, ( i realize there will always be some exceptions) and deport those who we come in contact with, who are here illegally, over a period of 5 to 10 years,( just a rough estimation) attrition will get the job done. i might add that thier offspring who are actually not US citizens, although that is the assumtion lately, would then also not be eligable for public assistence. in my state thats a big #. you are right though, mass deportation is not a viable option.

Posted by: dbs at August 21, 2007 12:56 PM
Comment #230133

Oh, I don’t know, I never said it wasn’t viable. We just have to be willing to spend the resources. If we look at how much we are spending because they are here and would save if they were deported, I’m wondering if it wouldn’t make sense.

Posted by: Rhinehold at August 21, 2007 1:02 PM
Comment #230134

I would rather spend the 12 billion dollars to deport the illegals and secure the border, then spend 12 billion dollars in iraq for a US controlled government who took a vacation while our soldiers were getting killed, and taking the money we have already sent there and not spending to fix their country.

Posted by: KT at August 21, 2007 1:15 PM
Comment #230135

Rhinehold

i suppose anything is possible. i live not to far from santa ana, ca. assembling the man power, and coming up with a strategy to corral and aprehend all these people would be staggering. the $ side i think is easier to justify when you compare the cost in tax $ it takes to keep them here, and the services provided to the generally large families they have.

Posted by: dbs at August 21, 2007 1:45 PM
Comment #230142

Spending 12 billion (or even 20 billion) annually to secure the borders and stop illegal immigration would save at least $50 billion annually since the net losses due to illegal immigration are $70 billion annually.

It’s not necessary to deport 12 million (or more) illegal aliens. That lame argument is always trotted out to cloud and confuse the issues, among other tactics and excuses.

Stop the greedy illegal employers, and it will eliminate the magnets, and illegal aliens will stop coming here illegally, and the ones already where will go home or somewhere else.

Of course, that’s not going to happen since most (if not all) of our bought-and-paid-for politicians are in the pocket of the illegal employers, and voters repeatedly reward and re-elect those very same politicians that are (despicably) pitting the voters and illegal aliens against each other.

We should not hate illegal aliens just looking for work, despite violating our laws by being here illegally.

But we should despise our politicians (most, if not all) that despicably pit American citizens and illegal aliens against each other.

Politicians in BOTH parties will continue to ignore this (and other) problems (aside from a little here or there to quell the complainers over and over) as long as voters reward Congress with 90% to 95% re-election rates (since 1996; one of the longest periods of high re-election rates ever).

Posted by: d.a.n at August 21, 2007 2:52 PM
Comment #230143

This is an issue where the Democratic Leadership (and, of course, w) is completly wrong. Illegal immigration is a subset of a much larger problem: the attack on middle class incomes. Businesses could not send good paying jobs overseas fast enough toward cheaper labor so they are bringing the labor here. Remember, it’s not about compassion (for a mother who is “forced” to leave her son behind), or about “being sensible about the reality of 12,000,000 illegals already here”, (which is the core argument used to push comprehensive reform), it is about money.

Posted by: Charles Ross at August 21, 2007 2:57 PM
Comment #230145

Rounding up all the immigrants here without permission is not feasable. It would take the entire constabulary with the aid of an already overburdened military.The cost would far exceed the estimates sighted . The results would be a severe economic downturn,food shortages and raising prices.It would also create instability in Mexico likely to increase immigration presure,this time with war refugees. The level of human suffering involved would make the Trail of Tears seem like a picnic.
FYI Nearly half the estimated 12 million or so people here without papers did not sneak across the border. Many are not Latinos. They have overstayed their visas.

Posted by: BillS at August 21, 2007 3:11 PM
Comment #230146

Charles Ross

“it’s not about compassion (for a mother who is “forced” to leave her son behind), or about “being sensible about the reality of 12,000,000 illegals already here”, (which is the core argument used to push comprehensive reform), it is about money.”


i agree, but don’t leave out the other half of equation. it’s also about future voting blocks. remember the chant,” today we march, tomorrow we vote”. don’t kid yourself as easy as it is to vote absentee, and with no type of ID required at the polls, they are probably voting already.

Posted by: dbs at August 21, 2007 3:13 PM
Comment #230148
it exists because the mexican gov’t would rather export its poor,

It exists because the Us government would rather screw the worker…allowing employers to use illegals consistently…where are the huge fines on slaughter house owners? cleaning service owners? construction company owners? The executive branch of government is in charge of enforcing the laws of this nation…why is our current chief executive NOT ENFORCING laws against employing illegal workers??? A couple raids here and there are not enforcement…they are just “show”…

Posted by: Rachel at August 21, 2007 3:20 PM
Comment #230149

BillS

if the fed gov’t decides to round them up, who do they need permission from? if it takes a revolution in mexico to clean that country up, then it’s far past due. the prosperity and freedom we have here has been paid for dearly time and time again, it wasn’t without cost, and to think the same thing in mexico wouldn’t require the same type of sacrifice is unrealistic.

i do agree with you that mass deportation is not the best option. punish the employers to cut off most of the job supply, and they will leave voluntarily. attrition will get the job done over time. the ones that still wish to work here can apply, and enter through legal channels. over time americans can replace the mexican workers, and work visas for foreign workers can adjusted year to year according to labor shortage, and necessity.

Posted by: dbs at August 21, 2007 3:30 PM
Comment #230150

Rachel

excellent question, but trying to paint it as a republican problem is to ignore the fact the democrats have done nothing about it either, and have thier own agenda. they see future voters. to make this a partisan issue is to ignore the truth. it effects all of us, so rather than attack republicans lets solve the problem. i think i made my position clear earlier, do you dissagee with it, or is it because i’m a republican, you refuse to acknolwege validity in anything i say?

Posted by: dbs at August 21, 2007 3:41 PM
Comment #230155

dbs
I am sorry I was not more clear. I was refering to the immigrants without permission to be here.

Mexico does indeed need some basic reforms to allow a more equitable distribution of wealth. Mexico is actually a wealthy country. Problem is the wealth is kept by the elites. Do you really expect the US to go along with or even tolerate the type of Bolivarian revolution needed to correct this. The last time Mexicans tried this we sent an army to stop it.

Mass deportation is not a realistic option for a civilized democracy.Pretending that it is obsfucates the debate.

Posted by: BillS at August 21, 2007 4:27 PM
Comment #230158

Mexican gays are sneaking across the border to unplug our brain dead women! —Homer Simpson

Posted by: BillS at August 21, 2007 4:53 PM
Comment #230163

Jack,

We created the immigration issue. We manipulated the Mexican economy for the last century and prevented their development. Now, we have a much poorer neighbor whose populace, not surprisingly, finds it necessary to send people here to work. As if that is not enough, our own companies large and small continue to take horrifying advantage.

The immigration bill died because significant money from companies like DR Horton Homes and Centex is invested in the status quo. These entities give to campaign funds and thus when they ask for a procedural stone-walling of immigration reform, they get it.

Further, contrary to popular opinion, we are actually netting more than we spend in services to the undocumented. This is not making the press, but it should.

Consider:
http://www.nmvoices.org/attachments/immigrant_tax_report.pdf

This report does even take sufficient notice of the income taxes paid by the undocumented. Yes. I said INCOME TAXES!
I know this is done because I have volunteered as part of a major project to help undocumented get their taxes filed. They lined up in the hundreds to get these services from us at the location I worked at becaeuse they wish to remain in the good grace of the law in order to be able adjust status and become legal citizens as soon as possible.

The denial of both reality and responsibility endorsed by those who know so little about this issue, such as the top commentary which begins this thread, is destructive and morally irresponsible.

Ask yourself one question with respect to Elvira Arellano: Do you suppose her kids speak Spanish?

It is common to assume that all hispanic children, legal or illegal speak spanish, but it is even more common that they don’t. Parents trying to achieve assimilation for themselves and their families very often encourage english and don’t encourage spanish among their kids in the home. It is the native born American hispanics who more commonly encourage their children to speak spanish.

Posted by: RGF at August 21, 2007 5:36 PM
Comment #230169

RGF said: “We manipulated the Mexican economy for the last century and prevented their development.”

You are right about manipulating the Mexican economy in part. But, you are dead wrong on our preventing their development. You may want to read up on the history of Mexico just a tad. They didn’t even have a stable government until just a couple decades ago, and without a stable government, you can’t have a stable economy. Finally, Mexico remained a largely agricultural society right through our industrialization and technological growth periods. Leaving them by their own choices, a third world nation until their break out in the 1970’s when OIL became an enriching export.

Just a little research goes a long way to insure credibility.

Posted by: David R. Remer at August 21, 2007 5:59 PM
Comment #230170

RGF

what does this all have to do with enforcing our immigration laws. we didn’t need new immigration laws, just to enforce those we already had. they didn’t, so whats the point of passing more laws that won’t be enforced?


“The denial of both reality and responsibility endorsed by those who know so little about this issue, such as the top commentary which begins this thread, is destructive and morally irresponsible.”


i see, so anyone who doesn’t buy into your conspiracy theories, or disagrees is just ignorant, got it.


“Ask yourself one question with respect to Elvira Arellano: Do you suppose her kids speak Spanish?”


who cares, doesn’t change anything, she still came here illegally, and had that child after being ordered deported once already. i guess all us big meanies should be ashamed we expect the gov’t to enforce our immigration laws.

Posted by: dbs at August 21, 2007 6:00 PM
Comment #230171

BillS said: “Mass deportation is not a realistic option for a civilized democracy”

But phased deportation is highly practical and pragmatic for a civilized democracy as well as a border barrier enforced to protect its own sovereignty and resources from those who would plunder it out of both need and greed.

Posted by: David R. Remer at August 21, 2007 6:03 PM
Comment #230187

DR
The only modern example of the deportation you are suggesting is what occured in Europe under the nazis.It too was phased. First Germany,then Austria,then Poland,France etc. I chose my words carefully when I wrote “a civilized democracy.”

Posted by: BillS at August 21, 2007 7:33 PM
Comment #230188

You have that deportation a little backward there don’t you BillS. It was more like we deported Germans first out of France, then out of Poland, then out of Austria, and back into Germany which was their country to begin with! Are you saying we were not civilized in doing so?

JD

Posted by: JD at August 21, 2007 8:01 PM
Comment #230193

Jack,

This woman aside, I suppose if you think illegal immigrants are really hurting our country then that’s the position you’ll take, but all of this pretending to care about the “law” is comical. The law is whatever Americans say it is. Period. It can be changed for the good of this nation or to whatever is sensible at any time.

If your party had any good arguments that showed illegal immigrants hurt this country those would be touted, not this breaking the law excuse. It’s true, and since there are no good arguments, you’ve got to wonder what the real reason is. Gee, could it be racism?

Let’s see… Wacky and totally unrealistic plan to round up foreigners - Check. No good reason to have them leave, but many good ones to have them stay - Check. No hispanic votes for Republicans for at least a generation? - Checkmate.

Posted by: Max at August 21, 2007 9:43 PM
Comment #230194

Max

I support legal immigration. I just believe that WE Americans have the right to make the decisions.

That racism argument is just pure BS. I am opose illegal immigration from Poland, the country of my own ancestors. I support legal immigration from places like China, Nigeria or Mexico. WE Americans should choose who can come to our country. It should not be the default decision of anybody who can sneak in.

That position maybe would cost me votes of people who do like to cheat if I were running for anything. I think it is more important to do the right thing than the pandering popular thing. I believe in the rule of law.

BTW - immigration is not a Republican or Dem issue. It tends to split both parties. The WSJ is much in favor or immigration, while many labor groups oppose it.

Posted by: Jack at August 21, 2007 10:21 PM
Comment #230203

Max said: “The law is whatever Americans say it is.”

The law is located in the federal registry and the people have spoken on this in the form of law which is why it is correct to refer to them as ILLEGAL immigrants.

Get it? Illegal? As in not according to the law which the American people assented to, through their elected representatives as recently as 1987 under Reagan’s administration and the Democratic Congress of the time.

So, you are quite right. These 12 to 20 million people who have entered into this country without bothering customs or immigration authorities are law breakers because the American people SAID they ARE!

Texas is experiencing huge percentage growths in diseases which were once eradicated or, under control precisely because of illegal immigration and the absence of requisite immunizations required of legal immigrants. The black plague is back in growing numbers. A result of the fleas hitching a ride on both illegal contraband and illegal immigrants entering the country without NHS monitoring or preventive measures taking place. Hepatitus B is a major concern now for Texas school districts partly a result of illegal immigration.

Not to mention heavily armed illegal immigrant gangs growing Marijuana in our National Forests and threatening American citizens who visit our parks and stray too close to the crops. I have paid for those National Parks all my working life, and NOW I have to arm myself when visiting them because of illegal immigrants claiming the parks for their own underground economy.

This has GOT TO STOP! And citizens across this country are taking the law into their own hands being left no choice by these bastards in the White House and Congress who WON’T enforce the laws of the people designed to protect the American people. Fine, we will protect ourselves and when enough of us do, we won’t need a federal government anymore. Is that where you want to see our future go?

We are a hair’s breadth away from a growing wave of vigilantism in this country that won’t be pretty or civilized. Our intelligence agencies are now warning of internal domestic terrorists. Fancy that. As if it weren’t predictable by the fury of the people at the government’s abject failure to do what they were hired to do, enforce the laws already on the books and in our founding documents.

Posted by: David R. Remer at August 21, 2007 10:54 PM
Comment #230207


Max: This Democrat thinks that early next year, the troops will be starting to come from Iraq and that illegal immigration will be the bigest issue in the 2008 elections. If the Democratic Party backs the illegal immigrants they can kiss the Congress goodby and possibly the White House to. If they can get enough illegals to vote, they may be able to hold onto L.A., Chicago and New York City.

You may think that illegal immigration is good for America. You may even be able to prove that it is. However, close to 80% of the people are convinced that it is wrong and bad for our country. Your facts won’t convince them in the least.

Posted by: jlw at August 21, 2007 11:36 PM
Comment #230212

Max,

I believe the D.A.N. has more then enough stats on the impact from Illegal Immigration. Follow his links.

Posted by: Scottyp at August 21, 2007 11:55 PM
Comment #230235

Whether illegal aliens have a net negative or positive financial influence on this country is hotly debated among economists. I won’t bother listing links because anyone willing to search can find the arguments for both sides. So let’s stop pretending the numbers tossed around represent any sort of consensus view.

That said, every country has a legitimate interest in securing its borders, and I don’t think we need to label those who want to stop illegal immigration as racists.

Posted by: Gerrold at August 22, 2007 8:50 AM
Comment #230237

It’s not clear whether illegal immigrants help or hurt this country. It would be great to have this debate, but instead our focus has been put onto the red herring issue of “breaking the law”. If Republicans had a slam dunk argument that showed illegal immigrants hurt us, they would shout it from the rooftops. They don’t, and that speaks volumes. I don’t honestly believe anyone’s a racist, though I do think some of that has driven this campaign. In general, I think the campaign has been driven by knee jerk reactions to a right wing radio talking point that is largely beside the point and counterproductive to solving the issue.

Btw, here’s a great article by Tony Snow asking the Republican party to have some commonsense on this issue.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/03/how_about_a_little_common_sens.html

Posted by: Max at August 22, 2007 9:45 AM
Comment #230245

RGF:

I’ll bite, where did these illegal immigrants get the required social security number to file and pay taxes?

This report does even take sufficient notice of the income taxes paid by the undocumented. Yes. I said INCOME TAXES! I know this is done because I have volunteered as part of a major project to help undocumented get their taxes filed. They lined up in the hundreds to get these services from us at the location I worked at becaeuse they wish to remain in the good grace of the law in order to be able adjust status and become legal citizens as soon as possible.
Posted by: womanmarine at August 22, 2007 12:26 PM
Comment #230255

Max, you are overlooking two indisputable facts. First, the vast majority of Americans DO NOT support tolerance for law breaking. Second, the vast majority of Americans recognize that unchecked illegal immigration is harmful to America if not in the present, in the not too distant future as numbers grow from 1 million to 5 million or more a year, which of course will occur if illegal immigration is not halted, as demand for living in America around the world vastly exceeds 5 million persons per year.

These two irrefutable facts lead to only one logical resolution. Halt illegal immigration, regardless of whether in the present, on balance, they are a net positive or net negative for America. Unstopped, the problem grows into an invasion, and Americans do not want their children to have to face that dilemma which the parents can prevent now.

Posted by: David R. Remer at August 22, 2007 1:02 PM
Comment #230258

Gerold
If these immigrants were from Canada the amount of xenophobic vitriol would be much less. If you look at some of the post here you will see that many are dripping with fear, the mother of racism.

Posted by: BillS at August 22, 2007 1:09 PM
Comment #230276

BillS,

Undeniably some people are racists. Undeniably some people are whatever bad thing you want to select. Undeniably some people overstate the (pick one) negatives or positives of illegal immigration. All that is irrelevant.

Every country has a right to thwart illegal immigration. We have millions of illegal aliens, and we have legitimate national security reasons to control who comes into our country and to deport those who came in illegally. Realistically, we cannot deport them all, but that shouldn’t stop us from deporting those we can. That said, I have no problem in principle with mechanisms that allow some illegal immigrants to become legal.

Posted by: Gerrold at August 22, 2007 2:32 PM
Comment #230291

I’m still waiting for an answer to womammarine’s question…..where, and how, did they get the social security (numbers) cards used to file taxes ??!!
I have long ago lost my actual card, and it is a major production to get a replacement.

Posted by: Sandra Davidson at August 22, 2007 3:44 PM
Comment #230295

David,

If your first point, that Americans do not support law breaking, were really true than Republicans would have the balls to go after the businesses that are hiring them. In fact, these businesses, which have so much respect for law, wouldn’t be hiring them in the first place.

Your second point, that the current immigration policy is broken and must be fixed is entirely valid, but there are options as to how to fix it. Democrats propose a work program that will document illegal immigrants and create standards, harsh standards, for legal citizenship, that all immigrants can agree are hard but fair. Republicans talk about building a wall that cannot be built and or rounding up all illegals and putting them in jail, which is physically impossible. This us versus them mentality is going to create huge problems down the road.

Posted by: Max at August 22, 2007 3:52 PM
Comment #230328

Sandra and Womanmarine
Employers withold money from paychecks to pay taxes. They also hold SS. These monies are applied to whatever SS number they are given regardless od its legitimacy. I can’t source it right now but I recall a SS spokesman stateing that there is a freat deal of money put there that will never be paid out.


Biden has a pretty good approach. He favors rigorous border enforcement includeing some fenceing where it makes sense. He also favors allowing those already here that pass a background test,have a decent work record,are willing to pay any taxes owed and a fine a pathway to citizenship.As he points out,Mexico is the third richest country in the hemisphere. He also favors US encouragement of Mexico to provide more opportunities for more people, bearing in mind that we cannot dictate policy to another country.He also is in favor of a guest worker program for agriculture but opposes extending that to other industries like construction.

The administration is stepping up employer enforcement efforts.Outside of a few media events this is not likely to help much but merely push the problem furthur underground. There will be an increase in cash pay. Workers will be hired for shorter durations etc.The administration also claims to be “streamlining” the existant guest worker programs. Looks to me Bushco is useing immigrants to furthur erode workers rights. Surprise surprise.

Posted by: BillS at August 22, 2007 6:27 PM
Comment #230330

womanmarine, Sandra

of course they want to file thier taxes, but not so they are “in the good grace of the law”. it’s more likely they want to make sure they get thier refunds being as they probably get all of it, or even more back then they paid in because of thier filing status. so RGF what percentage got refunds, and what percentage actually owed? just curious.

Posted by: dbs at August 22, 2007 6:33 PM
Comment #230332

BillS


you can’t get a soc.sec # unless you are here legally. many people go through hell when these illegal aliens use thier #s. what thier doing is illegal period. the rest doesn’t matter. they’re just fortunate to get away with it, and feeling sorry for them because they paid in and won’t get to collect is nonsense.

Posted by: dbs at August 22, 2007 6:38 PM
Comment #230333

“The administration is stepping up employer enforcement efforts.Outside of a few media events this is not likely to help much but merely push the problem furthur underground. There will be an increase in cash pay. Workers will be hired for shorter durations etc.The administration also claims to be “streamlining” the existant guest worker programs. Looks to me Bushco is useing immigrants to furthur erode workers rights. Surprise surprise.”


your partly right, but next step would to make the cost of hiring illegals so costly as to not be worth it. 1st two offenses stiff fines. the 3rd offense THE CEO GOES TO JAIL. that would stop it !

Posted by: dbs at August 22, 2007 6:46 PM
Comment #230340
dbs wrote: …feeling sorry for them because they paid in and won’t get to collect is nonsense.
Ain’t it though. That doesn’t even offset the massive $70+ billion in NET losses due to illegal immigration (not to mention the untold cost of crime, displaced jobs, and disease). But look out, the Democrat politicians (who have the majority) and many Republican politicians want to make illegal aliens eligible for Social Security (just as soon as they can push through another shamnesty BILL like the one in 1986).
  • Posted by: d.a.n at August 22, 2007 7:08 PM
    Comment #230371

    dbs
    Did I say anything about feeling sorry for anyone? You know for $15 you can get anybodies SS number online? Until we come up with a conterfiet proof ID ,employer enforcement will be just for show and one more tool to keep workers in their place. Even the proposed system where an employer can call in and verify a employees right to work will not help much. Many will not call and there will be a lot of Spanish speaking workers named O’Malley and Smith.

    Posted by: BillS at August 23, 2007 12:46 AM
    Comment #230435

    Max, your dishonest attempt to restate my words “the majority of Americans” as ‘Americans (all inclusive)’ to make your argument is BUSTED! ! !

    When you are capable of honest and logical debate, let me know, and we can talk again.

    Posted by: David R. Remer at August 23, 2007 3:01 PM
    Comment #230481

    Max

    painting this as a republican problem is absolutely dishonest. my point is not to defend the party, but to call you on your accusation. the democrats are not interested in a solution that would fix the problem, only one that would allow them to stay in order to recruit future voters. your guys are in power how about locking up CEOs that are allowing thier companies to hire these people. if the job supply dries up they will leave on thier own. the mass deportation argument is a red herring.

    Posted by: dbs at August 23, 2007 8:10 PM
    Comment #230549

    Do all you “no new taxes/ tax cutters” realize what it would cost to “enforce our immigration laws”, or are you just talking big? I mean, would you really be willing to put that much more into the federal coffers to expand the INS and police forces so we could catch and deport all 11 million? Sometimes I think you guys don’t have any sense of the implications of your “garage logic.”

    Posted by: mental wimp at August 24, 2007 1:19 PM
    Comment #230560

    No need to deport all of them.
    The “we can’t deport them” arguemnt is garage logic, and one of many weak excuses that undermine border security and enforcement of existing immigration laws.

    First, just stop employing illegal aliens, and build the fence (already approved in Congress), and that would probably save American tax payers over $50 billion, since illegal aliens cost American tax payers over $70 billion in NET losses annually. And that does not even include the untold cost of crime, millions of displaced jobs, disease.

    But don’t worry.
    Congress has no intentions of ever enforcing existing laws, because Republicans want cheap labor for they big-money-donor-illegal-employers, and Democrat politicians want cheap labor and vote (once they pass a shamesty BILL).

    Congress and law enforcement might put on a bit of a show, since they are blatantly ignoring existing laws and pitting American citizens and illegal aliens against each other, but Congress will basically continue to allow the illegal immigration (by the millions annually) to continue for nefarious reasons.

    As for taxes, the tax system is a joke. It’s not fair (just ask Warren Buffet who pays a lower percentage on income than a secretary making $60K). Besides, there’s really no need for a tax system at all if the government is going to print all the money they want anyway? If they just print what they need, we are all taxed roughly the same due to the inflation it causes. Already, the government has averaged 182 billion of new money annually between 1950 and 2005. The M3 money supply increased by a factor of 75. We did not become 75 times wealthier since 1850. Especially since the population doubled since 1950.

    Posted by: d.a.n at August 24, 2007 2:16 PM
    Comment #230563

    d.a.n.

    Uh…you’re wrong about that, d.a.n.

    http://www.nmvoices.org/attachments/immigrant_tax_report.pdf

    Are you advocating for that silly fence?
    When will you realize that the fence is boondoggle advocated by those who know it won’t accomplish anything but furher political manipulation?

    It’s silly beyond belief!

    Hell, d.a.n., the Cubans and the Haitians are swimming here! The Mexicans have already built a burm on their side to demonstrate how preposterous a proposition such a fence is.

    What about the Bucarelli agreement whereby we have corruptly steimied economic agreement in Mexico and caused our own problem out of our own selfishness? What about the degree to which American businesses continue to profit from the status quo? …which is responsible in no small part for the procedural death of the last attempt at immigration reform!

    …but regarding the economic loss calculations you are just wrong.

    The only way to come up with a calculation favorable to your point of view, you must consider the money being sent back to Mexico by both legal and illegal laborers. However, it is not morally acceptable to give weight to those figures! How is it appropriate to tell anyone what they can and cannot do with their money? …unless it involves criminal conduct in and of itself such as funding illegal activity. Besides, The ONLY solution to the immigration issue is to help Mexico grow economically. Since we aren’t doing our neighborly duty, they are doing are doing it for themselves by working here and sending much of it home. When we get to the point where Mexico and the U.S. have similar standards of living, we will see dramatic increases in certain goods coming into this country as well even more dramatic insreases in construction costs and manufactured goods costs.

    …Then what?
    Nobody is calculating the benefits of Mexican labor!

    This problem will and must resolve itself. There are too many American interests involved in corruptly profiting from the status quo, anyway. Over time, the standard of living in Mexico will rise to be closer to our own as a result of that very status quo. Unfortuneatly, that is the only plausible or even possible avenue for positive change at this point.

    In the meantime, many in Washingtom will continue sell the rediculous hype which you have bought into. That’s a shame, too, because you seem so intelligent and analytical on so many other issues, d.a.n. Why can you not see the forest for the trees on this one?

    The republicans are NOT about immigration reform at all…they are about selling this issue for votes while moneyed supporters such as DR Horton Homes and Centex continue to make campaign contributions and profit from the status quo.

    It’s all hype! Wake up and smell the coffee!

    Posted by: RGF at August 24, 2007 2:27 PM
    Comment #230634

    RGF, it’s all about pain level. Illegal aliens are raising that pain level. Many Americans are murdered each day by illegal aliens. Estimates put it at many times above the norm. When it becomes painful enough, there will be change. In the mean time, U.S. tax payers are losing billions annually ($70 billion or more) in net losses due to illegal aliens. Unfortunately, our own despicable politicians prefer to pit American citizens and illegal aliens against each other. How long will it take voters to figure this out?

    Posted by: d.a.n at August 25, 2007 1:25 AM
    Comment #230642

    “Over time, the standard of living in Mexico will rise to be closer to our own as a result of that very status quo.”

    it is far, far more likely that, over time the standard of living here in the united states will decrease to reach the equilibrium that you desire. *that*, unfortunately, is the only plausible and possible avenue for change (as we are witnessing it daily)… and it will not be a change for the better for mexicans or americans.

    Posted by: diogenes at August 25, 2007 9:52 AM
    Comment #230674

    RGF, The article you provided is clearly biased, and even it shows it to be a wash based on their numbers.

    Unfortunately, that study (which is far outnumbered by more credible reports to the contrary) failed to include the cost many other things producing a $70 billion (or more) net loss to American tax payers:

    • crime

    • burden on education systems;
    • burden on healthcare systems;

    • burden on hospital systems; 84 hospitals closed/closing in California;

    • burden on welfare systems; over 32% of illegal aliens collect welfare

    • burden on Medicaid system;

    • burden on border patrol systems; ever increasing numbers are needed;

    • burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;

    • burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;

    • burden on prison systems; 29% of state and federal prisoners (Sep-2004) are illegal aliens;

    • 2.3 million displaced American workers; partly because half of all illegal aliens that don’t pay taxes, and greedy employers that don’t pay unemployment taxes, Social Security, Medicare taxes, etc.;

    • voter fraud; burden on voting systems;

    That Fiscal Project Project failed to address all of those issues. It chose to cherry pick the data.

    Posted by: d.a.n at August 25, 2007 5:09 PM
    Comment #230679

    d.a.n.,

    It is not dialogue to simply argue that my data is biased while yours is not. We are not politicians running for office. We can do better.

    You still do even try to address the moral issue:
    We created this mess by steimying economic development in Mexico with the Bucarelli agreement.

    You don’t respond to the reality of why the status quo remains: our own American companies which are both campaign contributers and corrupt theives profitting from the undocumented by theft of labor

    There is no response or consideration whatsoever about the fact that the only solution is for Mexico to grow, develop and improve their standard of living and the only way that is going to happen is if they do it for themselves. We could help matters by removing the profit motive in the drug trade, but too many unthinking righties among us thnk that is too radical. The drug traffic may be the only thing that American citizens have any real control over.

    I simply KNOW better than to believe your data either. So I guess we are at an impass. Go ahead vote for the boondoggle and wasted money represented by the wall project. It will only accomplish the temporary employment of those who build it and it ultimately accomplish nothing except the immense waste of our tax dollars.
    Sadly, I will have to satisfy myself with the future solace of telling you “I told you so.”

    Posted by: RGF at August 25, 2007 7:07 PM
    Comment #230707
    RGF wrote: It is not dialogue to simply argue that my data is biased while yours is not. We are not politicians running for office. We can do better.

    The facts are what count. I provided about a hundred links, GAO reports on crime, and hundreds of other studies and articles (as opposed to your one link).

    Besides, existing laws should be enforced.
    Illegal immigration is just that: illegal.

    Of course our own politicians are selling us out.
    So are the politicians in Mexico selling out their citizens. But we are not forcing people from all over the world to come here to violate our laws and trespass our borders.

    The politicians are the truly despicable party in all of this, as they pit American citizens and illegal aliens against each other.

    But the majority of voters repeatedly reward and re-elect the incumbent politicians for it, so the voters don’t seem too upset yet with their bought-and-paid-for politicians. Why else would they repeatedly reward Congress with a 90% to 95% re-election rate since 1996 ?

    So we’re all culpable.
    But just because we help created this mess doesn’t mean we aren’t allowed to clean it up, and it doesn’t justify breaking the law.

    But don’t worry.
    Our governemnt isn’t serious about enforcing existing laws.

    So, it’s a moot issue.

    Congress and governments will not enforce the laws because bought-and-paid-for incumbent politicians are in the pockets of their big-money-donor puppeteers (greedy illegal employers).

    Also, this is not just about Mexico. Illegal aliens come from all over the world.

    As for the article you provided a link to, it’s not very convincing or comprehensive. It cherry picks a few facts, and leaves out a myriad of other facts. Illegal aliens are costing American tax payers net losses of over $70 billion per day. For every study or report that tries to refute that fact, there are 20 more credible reports and studies that support that fact.

    But you don’t have to have a lot of research to prove it. Just do a little math.

    COST BURDEN / TOTAL NET LOSSES to U.S. CITIZENS:

    The U.S. has 300 million citizens (as of NOV-2006).
    There are about 12 million illegal aliens (some estimates place this much higher).
    But, only about 55% of illegal aliens pay federal income taxes.
    That leaves 6.6 million illegal aliens that pay federal income taxes.
    But, only 67% of illegal aliens are employed (the rest are children or elderly).
    That leaves 4.422 million employed illegal aliens that pay income taxes.
    Now, let’s assume illegal aliens average $12 per hour for 5.5 days per week (287 days per year).

    That comes to $27,552 per year.
    After a standard IRS deduction of $5,000 , that leaves $22,552 per year.
    The highest tax rate (filing single) is 13.3647% .
    Therefore, that is $3014 in federal income taxes withheld per year (using 2005 tax tables).
    And, Social Security and Medicare taxes add up tp 15.3% of gross income.
    That includes the 7.65% paid by the employer, and 7.65% paid by the employee.
    Therefore, that amounts to $4215 for 15.3% for Social Security and Medicare taxes.
    That is $18.64 billion for Social Security and Medicare taxes.

    However, other estimates say that it is actually only about $7 billion.
    Nevertheless, let’s continue with the much higher $18.64 billion.
    Therefore, the highest estimate of total taxes paid = $7229 = $2014 + 4215 .
    That is $31.97 billion per year = ($4.422 million * $7229) for all federal taxes.
    Note: none of that even includes deductions for dependents.

    Now lets assume the profit from their work is at least 16.7% ($2 per hour of the wage of $12 per hour) to the employer.
    Thus, the value of their work is $24.08 billion per year.
    Unfortunately, the U.S. citizens do not realize the entire benefit of the value of that work.
    Greedy employers of illegal aliens reap most of the profit and benefit from the under-paid/under-class. That is why a huge jump in prices is a myth, and even if it were true, the net losses would still exceed net benefits.
    Thus, the net value to the U.S. is $56.05 billion = $31.97 billion + $24.08 billion.

    However, the net costs to U.S. tax payers is estimated at $70 billion (after taxes are deducted). In 1997 (nine years ago), Dr. Donald Huddle, Professor Emeritus of Economics at Rice University, found that total costs were as high as $139 billion, and net costs (after adjusting for taxes and some other net gains) were $69 billion in 1997. So, $87 billion in 2006 is a very conservative estimate, since Huddle also did not include the cost of displaced workers, crime, and disease.

    Therefore, let’s use the smaller estimate of net costs (before deducting taxes) of $101.97 billion (i.e. $70 billion + $31.97 billion for taxes), which agrees closely with many estimates. At fairus.org, the estimate of costs is $87 billion per year, but that is before deducting the value of all federal taxes, which was generously estimated above at $31.97 billion. $31.97 billion is really over estimated, but let’s assume taxes paid are actually that high.

    Therefore, the total cost after deducting taxes and value of work is $45.92 billion = ($101.97 billion - $31.97 billion taxes received - $24.08 billion value of work).

    That value of $45.92 billion is very close to the $45 billion estimated by the Federation for American Immigration Reform (fairus.org) which stated:

      “the net expense [loss] to the taxpayer from illegal immigration would currently be at least $45 billion”

    And, that $45 billion of net losses to U.S. citizens does not even include the estimates for 2.3 million displaced U.S. workers, unemployment benefits and welfare for displaced workers, tax deductions for dependents, cost of crime, and disease. Also, it is mostly the poorest citizens that are being displaced from jobs, because of the unfair advantage that illegal aliens and their greedy employers have by not paying taxes.

    Many studies place the estimated net losses to the U.S. at double that (ranging from $70 billion to $300 billion). Even if it is only $45 billion, that is not an insignificant amount. That amounts to about $1 billion per state per year. And here’s another important thing. Those costs above do not even include the untold costs of crime, several homicides per day, job displacement, 32% of illegal aliens that receive welfare, 29% of all incarcerated in federal prisons are illegal aliens, overrun hospitals and ERs, burdens on school systems, law enforcement, prisons, insurance, disease, border patrol, and voter fraud. Add that and the burdens are much higher. And what will be the impact of importing so many that are impoverished and uneducated?

    Also, some states are impacted drastically more. Conservative estimates of total annual losses for California alone, are estimated at $11 billion.

    The fence would only cost $10 to $20 billion, and $10 billion annually to guard. That means U.S. tax payers would save $60 billion annually ($70 billion - $10 billion).

    The reason for the fence is two fold.
    To secure the borders and because Congress may still refuse to enforce the illegal employers.

    Democrat politicians may get a huge surprise in the 2008 elections, because voters seem to think Democrat politicians are soft on illegal immigration. I don’t know where they get that strange idea. They’re no worse than Republican politicians. Just because Republican politicians voted for a fence (with no funding) at the last minute in 2006 when they saw their ratings in the toilet doesn’t prove anything. Neither party is serious about stopping illegal immigration. Still, it’s a perception. Lots of voters appear to think Republicans are going to do something about illegal immigration. If that were true, why didn’t they do anything in the past decade while they had the majority. Now that the Democrats have the majority, it’s extremely unlikely they will address illegal immigration. And non-border states don’t get it. Some person in Vermont was telling me the other day that there were only a few illegal aliens there. I told him there are about a million illegal aliens in just the north-east quadrant of Texas. That’s more that the population of the whole state of Vermont (and Wyoming, Montana, North Dakota, Delaware, and Alaska).
    ____________________
    How Much Do Illegal Aliens Cost U.S. Taxpayers?
    M O R E

    Jack’s article is very apropos.
    Where’s the compassion?
    Where’s the compassion for American citizens that despicable politicians pit against illegal aliens by shifting the losses and burdens onto U.S. tax payers (over $70 billion annually)?
    Where’s the compassion for several Americans murdered every day be illegal aliens?
    Where’s the compassion for Americans whose schools, ERs, and hospitals have been overrun by illegal aliens?
    Where’s the compassion for needy Americans that go without while 32% of all illegal aliens receive welfare?
    Where’s the compassion for the Americans killed or infected (One illegal alien in Santa Barbara, California infected 56 other people with tuberculosis as reported on April 24, 2004, by the Santa Barbara Press-News, “Anatomy of an Outbreak”)?

    Posted by: d.a.n at August 26, 2007 1:49 AM
    Comment #230743

    Arellano hailed as Hero in Mexico, son receives scholarships, Mexico Senate drafts bill condemning US failure to secure its borders and deporting Arellano. This was all CNN and Arellano’s deportation to Mexico turned into the best thing that could have happened to her. Now she will make a living as speaker and condemner of US immigration policy in Spanish speaking countries, demanding the US open its borders to all who need to migrate.

    The Irony is to great and complex for words. CLOSE the Damned borders to ALL but LEGAL immigrants monitored and supervised while here until becoming a US Citizen or returning to their country of origin. As Arellano and the Mexican Senate prove, our open borders are a NO WIN situation for the United States, her people, and sovereignty. We will be criticized for keeping them open, and criticized for closing them. So, criticism should not be a factor.

    Posted by: David R. Remer at August 26, 2007 9:35 PM
    Comment #230795

    Voting Records
    See YOUR politicians’ grade cards: politician immigration grade cards

    Posted by: d.a.n at August 27, 2007 11:13 AM
    Comment #231864

    d.a.n.,

    If you are going to refuse to reply to the issues I point out, then so be it. However, there is escaping certain realities.

    The responsibility for the immigration issue being what it is, still rests on our own heads…or more accurately, on the heads of past Americans who have continually manipulated the Mexican economy and taken advantage of the artificial disparity.

    When the English colonial period began on the east coast, Mexico (New Spain) was head and shoulders above those colonies in wealth and economic depth, breadth and trade.

    Granted, that was the result of some rather nefarious tactics to exploit and rob wealth from the Indians in the region, but what we are now engaged in is no better.

    There are many out there like Arellano. They are themselves desparately trying to become citizens as fast as they can. Often, they have children for whom they are the only parent and that are citizens and are legally entitled to be here! When we drag our feet and don’t process them fast enough until they eventualy fall on the other side of the equation and get deported, we make their children wards of the state.

    How is that even morally acceptable?

    The immigration issue is a distaction issue.

    There will never be any meaningful change until powerful, well monied entities like DR Horton Homes and Centex stop profitting from the current status quo. The current housing market slow down might help, but in the meantime, there will be those who are getting fooled and manipulated such as those who put together your “immigration report card” and those rediculous, fooled clowns who are part of the “minute men.”

    There is ONLY ONE SOLUTION:
    The standard of living in Mexico MUST improve to be more commensurate with our own. Only then will this issue go away.

    We are not being very neighborly by our past and present economic manipulations. But, the Mexicans, being the hard working and industrious people that they are, are effecting their own solution: They are working here (Both the legal and the illegal among them) and sending money home. That money is stablizing the Mexican economy and raising the standard of living there.

    This problem will solve itself. The building of a wall or fence will only accomplish the appeasement of the unthinking masses who are failing the see the forest for the trees. Such a wall is, at BEST a boondaggle to manipulate influence, money and votes. No such wall is even capable of accomplishing anything.

    Mexico is like a pressure cooker, economically speaking. Even IF such a wall COULD magically work to keep all the would-be undocumented laborers out of this country, the result of that would be a growing disparity between our countries that would eventually force a spill-over of the undocumented.

    Hell, the Cubans and Haitians are swimming here across shark infested waters!!!!

    The wall is folly. Voting based on this distraction issue is folly. Any more blogging on this issue - thus wasting time and energy better spent on real issues like Iraq and the various treasons of our current administration -is FOLLY!

    IF any immigration bill is ever passed, ask yourself these questions:
    What money will be spent and where? Who will profit? Will the proposed action do anything else besides the literal, 2 dimensional goal it outlines? Will there be consequences? …and what happens long range?

    The single greatest contribution to making this issue worse for ourselves is our contributing to the disparity and misery in Mexico by means of the drug trade. Silly fools like Lindsay Lohan and Paris Hilton get their rocks off and the result is death, poverty and despair in Mexico. Sure, there are drug problems in Latin America, but the Market profitiability that funds the corruption, the guns and the whole drug trade comes from the US. Our indulgent, irresponsible and spoiled rotten teenagers (and older) are feeding the monster that is more directly connected with the immigratioin issue than anyone wants to admit.

    The War on Drugs only helps the profitability. Legalizing and regulating is the ONLY viable solution.

    Posted by: RGF at September 5, 2007 3:13 PM
    Comment #232036
    RGF wrote: The wall is folly.
    It’s not a wall. It’s a fence and technology. It would cost $10 Billion per year. Since illegal immigration cost Americans $70 Billion annually in NET losses, Americans will be saving $60 Billion annually.
    RGF wrote: If you are going to refuse to reply to the issues I point out, then so be it.
    I’ve addressed all of your points. Just look here for the answers.
    RGF wrote: Hell, the Cubans and Haitians are swimming here across shark infested waters!!!!
    So that means we should let everyone come here illegally?
    RGF wrote: IF any immigration bill is ever passed, ask yourself these questions: What money will be spent and where? Who will profit?
    Securing our borders will save the American tax payers $60 Billion (or more) annually, eliminate 3.6 to 26 homicides daily, eliminate spread of disease, and displacement of jobs taken by illegal aliens.
    RGF wrote: The War on Drugs only helps the profitability. Legalizing and regulating is the ONLY viable solution.
    Regulating? ONLY? I’m not so sure about that. Selling herion, cocaine, etc. to children should be a crime. Border security would cut down the drug trade and illegal trespassers significantly. Congress has already passed a BILL to build a fence. Now they need to do it. That is also what most Americans want. Fortunately, that last shamnesty BILL was stopped in its tracks. I’m pleased to see so many Americans get upset enough about something to try to put a stop to it.
    RGF wrote: The immigration issue is a distaction issue.
    Tell that to the people (up to 26 per day) murdered by illegal aliens. Tell it to the Americans losing $70 Billion annually due to illegal immigration. And that does not even include the cost of crime, thousands of homicides per year, disease, and 2.6 million displaced jobs.
    RGF wrote: we make their children wards of the state.
    No we don’t. They should take their children with them back where they came from. They are using their children as anchor babies to abuse deficiencies in our laws.

    RGF wrote: There are many out there like Arellano. They are themselves desparately trying to become citizens as fast as they can.
    We can’t let everyone come here. It’s that simple. There are too many illegal aliens here already. Congress’ refusal to do anything about it (and Iraq) may be why Congress has a dismal 18% approval rating (tied with the lowest rating ever). I hope enough voters are getting sick of Do-Nothing Congress and refuse to vote for any politicians that: I don’t know who I’ll vote for in Nov-2008, but it won’t be any politicians that:
    • (1)refuses to secure the borders and ports.
    • (2)refuses to enforce existing immigration laws.
    • (3)refuses to get us out of Iraq soon.
    • (4)refuses to cut spending, pork-barrel,and waste.
    • (5)perpetuates inflation and excessive money printing.
    • (6)supports a 30% sales tax (FairTax.org)
    • (7)sells out the American workers.
    • (8)violates the Constitution
    • (9)already has a voting record undermining any of the above

    If not, then voters have the government they deserve and they deserve to have their coutry overrun if they are too complacent, apathetic, and lazy to vote out the crooked politicians selling them out and fight for their own sovereignty.

    Government won’t become more responsible and accountable until enough voters to too. Until then, voters deserve the government they have. It is merely a reflection of themselves.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 6, 2007 8:14 PM
    Comment #232368

    d.a.n.

    What is your ethicity?

    What Native American tribe are you a member of?

    Posted by: RGF at September 9, 2007 4:34 PM
    Comment #232384

    My Great Grandmother was 50% Cherokee. Why? Does it matter? To me, ethnicity and race don’t matter. Why must we turn this into a race issue?

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 9, 2007 9:10 PM
    Comment #232385

    I was born in Oklahoma.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 9, 2007 9:12 PM
    Comment #232557

    d.a.n.,

    Race and Ethicity matter because this issue has a long history. Learn it. It would help you.

    I, too, have family from Oklahoma and I have approximately twice your percentage…of Choctaw. However, it is not important.

    Every group of immigrants in this country has ultimately added significantly to the health, wealth and well being of the whole country. The Irish, the Jews, the Italians…etc.
    Each group suffered severe racism and “close the door” sentiments from those who got here before them. This goes back even to Colonial times!

    Native Americans have the ONLY TRUE beef with Immigration. The rest of us are hipocrits. Oddly enough, the native peoples may have been the most welcoming, all things considered.

    There is a difference with this group (coming from Latin America). They are true neighbors. They can walk whereas others suffered the coffin ships to get here. However, another aspect that makes them different is that WE created the situations in Latin America that drove them here. Now, we want to deny our responsibility to those who have been effected by our irresponsible and immoral policies. I’m talking about economic manipulations and U.S. backed coups just to name a couple.

    Further, we continue to profit from manipulating them even now. NAFTA screwed Mexico worse than most Americans realize…and that is NOT because we have liberally biased media. Quite the opposite.

    The current status quo is such that it will not change by any other means than the help Mexico is deriving fromn the hard work of those workers, both legal and illegal, who are sending money back to Mexico. The only effective cure to this current situation is for the standard of living in Mexico to rise to a place more commensurate with our own. The money being sent back is stabilizing Mexico’s economy and currency and the result will ultimately be that the current border concern will shift to the Mexico/Guatamala border within a generation. You can bet on it.

    In the meantime, I would bet my money that one Mexican could outwork any TEN Americans you care to choose - anytime, anywhere at almost anything.

    Posted by: RGF at September 11, 2007 1:52 PM
    Comment #232637

    In fact…

    I believe our country NEEDS and injection of Immigrant blood again, BADLY!

    We are losing ourselves!

    Posted by: RGF at September 12, 2007 11:59 AM
    Comment #232651

    Just more excuses and mischaracterizations (all listed HERE; see if you can find yours (see: Irredentism)).

    Who said close the door?

    What part of illegal do you not understand?

    As this title of this thread states, you have a misplaced compassion.

    And you think one Mexican can outwork ten Americans? I doubt that, but you don’t seem to think much of Americans, eh? How about education and literacy?

    In some ways, perhaps your poor opinion of Americans is justified. After all, most American voters repeatedly reward the very same politicians with re-election for despicably pitting Americans and illegal aliens against each other. Thus, Americans may indeed be getting what they deserve. Americans have the government they deserve, and I too am finding it harder and harder to have much sympathy for them.

    THE SOLUTION

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 12, 2007 4:15 PM
    Comment #232652

    Congress’ Immigration Report Card Grades

    No wonder they call it Do-Nothing Congress.

    Yet, voters repeatedly reward Do-Nothing Congress with re-election, and cu$hy 90% to 95% re-election rates (since 1996).

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 12, 2007 4:20 PM
    Comment #232730

    No, d.a.n.,

    I am not failing to understand the term “illegal.”

    I understand completely. That is not the issue.

    Give me what label you wish. You may pretend to pigeon hole my argument and point of view all you wish. You are still missing the point.

    WE, as Americans created the current problem. WE, as Americans have a responsibility that many of us hiding their heads in the sand about.

    I explained to at length and more than once, why it is that Congress and Washington will NEVER do anything about this issue. That same argument is above on this thread. Have you bothered to read it and consider it? I am guessing, since you keep offering the same silly, pointless ‘Immigration report card’ nonesense that you have not bothered to consider it at all.

    Ultimately, it doesn’t matter what party holds the majority in Congress. There is enough political backing out there, among our own corporations that are invested in the status quo, to get what they want regardless of party.

    This whole issue is nothing more than a political distraction issue. It is pointless.

    If you, or anybody else, votes according to immigration reform intentions expressed by any candidate while campaigning, you may consider yourseves to have allowed yourselves to have been FOOLED.

    With regard to your insistence of the relevence of term, “illegal,” Consider this:
    The majority of those counted among the estimated 11-12 million undocumented aliens in this country are in various stages of adjusting their status according our own laws in order to become American Citizens.

    Would you throw them out in the middle of that process just because our own Dapartment of Homeland Security office is backloggd and dragging their feet?

    Posted by: RGF at September 13, 2007 2:00 PM
    Comment #232732
    RGF wrote:I am not failing to understand the term “illegal.”
    OK, so you understand illegal. So you want to reward illegal aliens that disrespect our laws with amnesty? Do that and watch the 12 million double, triple, and quadruple in a very short time. Already, it quadrupled since the last amnesty since 1986. And they showed their gratitude by inviting more illegal aliens, harboring them, and helping them to learn how to break our laws, drive with no drivers’ licenses or insurance, collect Medicaid, get healthcare, and overrun our ERs (not to mention the increased crime rates; especially in border cities).

    What about all that?
    Your excuse is compassion?
    It is misplaced compassion.

    The American people did not directly create the illegal immigration problem. Those that disrespect our laws created the problem. That is the illegal aliens and greedy illegal employers. Most American voters reject it, but the government refuses to stop it.

    Would you throw them out in the middle of that process just because our own Dapartment of Homeland Security office is backlogged and dragging their feet?
    First of all, we have no obligation to let anyone, much less everyone come here. You seem to think we do.

    Second, I wouldn’t throw anyone out unless they are already in one of our prisons or jails (depending on the crime).

    Third, I would not allow any illegal aliens amnesty or a path to illegal immigration. Anyone wanting to immigrate should leave first and get in line. That doesn’t mean they’ll be allowed to immigrate since so many want to, and we can’t let everyone come here. Why should we reward people that disrespect our laws with amnesty? That’s a recipe for quadrupling the problem again like after the last amnesty of 1986.

    We already allow hundreds of thousands of people to immigrate legally every year, but that’s not enough eh? So, I would also limit the numbers allowed to immigrate to less than 0.1% per year (currently, that would be 300,000 per year), and try to be much more picky about it too. Importing so many that are impoverished, less educated, and diseased isn’t helping anything. 32% of illegal aliens receive welfare. 29% of all incarcerated in federal prisons are illegal aliens. 3.6 to 26 people are murdered by illegal aliens per day. Illegal aliens cost U.S. tax payers over $70 Billion per year in net losses, and that does not even include the untold cost of crime, disease, and job displacement.

    But don’t worry. You will most likely get your way, because too many American voters are too brainwashed, too fond of wallowing in partisan warfare, too fat, and too lazy to even protect their own borders and ports. So it appears thay will probably get what they deserve. American voters have the government they deserve; a mere reflection of themselves; one that will grow worse by allowing greedy illegal employers to impor the impoverished and less educated by the millions and shifting the costs ($over $70 Billion annually in net losses) to the large number of complacent, apathetic, disinterested, and lazy American voters that sit by and bitch and complain, but never take action; not even the most simple of actions, such as not repeatedly rewarding corrupt, bought-and-paid-for politicians with constant re-election.

    THE SOLUTION

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 13, 2007 2:44 PM
    Comment #232736

    d.a.n.

    You are making assumptions about my arguement that make it clear you have not read anything of what I have been saying from the beginning.

    Since that is also rather obvious to anybody and everybody reading our discussion, you are defeating yourself rather handily.

    What I am trying to get you to understand, has more to do with JUSTICE, TAKING RESPONSIBILITY and RECOGNIZING TRUTH, than it does with compassion.

    You are not getting that because you are not reading or understanding what I am telling you.

    What is happening is that the Mexicans are helping themselves since we are failing to take responsibility for the economic manipulations we have excercised which have PUT THEM THERE! i.e. The bucarreli agreement, backing the coup of Victoriano Huerta, the maquiladoras and more recently, Nafta!

    Posted by: RGF at September 13, 2007 3:39 PM
    Comment #232738

    d.a.n.

    The “Solution” you propose is preposterous and self defeating.

    Mexico and all of Latin America is a pressure cooker both economically and politically.

    If you turn up the heat, i.e. your “Solution,”
    The whole thing will explode and we’ll have even more immigrants coming here faster than ever!

    The only SOLUTION is for Mexico to achieve a standard of living more commensurate with our own. That way, more of them will stay home and work, we will have a more valuable trade partner/neighbor and great strides will have been made into stabilizing the once volitile and dangerous region of Latin America.

    Hell, d.a.n., the Cubans and Haitians are swimming across the Carribean. Do you imagine the Mexicans and other Latin Americans cannot find a way? They have even already demonstrated the utter folly of those silly imbeciles, the “minutemen,” by building a BERM on the Mexican side of the fence those fools built!

    What you propose is every bit as silly and ultimately wasteful as the war on drugs! It’s a boondoggle that caters to voter-manipulation and the wanton waste of tax dollars in contracts to political supporters who will benefit from what you propose!

    It’s PURE FOLLY.

    Posted by: RGF at September 13, 2007 3:54 PM
    Comment #232751
    RGF wrote: d.a.n. You are making assumptions about my arguement that make it clear you have not read anything of what I have been saying from the beginning.
    Not true. I read all of it and simply disagree completely with almost all of your arguments.
    RGF wrote: Since that is also rather obvious to anybody and everybody reading our discussion, you are defeating yourself rather handily.
    Not true. After all, the very title of this thread is your problem: “Misplaced Compassion”
    RGF wrote: What I am trying to get you to understand, has more to do with JUSTICE, TAKING RESPONSIBILITY and RECOGNIZING TRUTH, than it does with compassion.
    I see the truth. The problem is:
    • [01] Greedy employers in the U.S.
    • [02] Illegal aliens from all over the world want to take advantage of the jobs from greedy illegal employers, our welfare, healthcare, ERs, public education, and numerous services.
    • [03] Greedy, FOR-SALE, bought-and-paid-for politicians refuse to enforce existing laws to prosecute illegal employers.
    • [04] Bleeding hearts have more compassion for illegal aliens that steal from them and kill 3.6 to 26 Americans per day, and have a stupid excuse for everything. Any one that disagrees is a racist, has no compassion, is a hypocrite, etc., etc., etc. The only excuse that carries any weight but still doesn’t justify increased immigration (legal or not) is that slumbering voters refuse to stop re-electing the politicians that are stabbing them in the back.
    • [05] Too many complacent, apathetic, lazy, fat Americans will act to stop it, even though it is costing them over $70 Billion annually in net losses (not even including the cost of 3.6 to 26 homicides per day, increased crime, disease, and job displacement). Too many American voters care enough to even vote at all (40% to 40% don’t vote). Those that do vote repeatedly reward the very same despicable politicians that are pitting voters and illegal aliens against each other; rewarding incumbent politicians with 90% to 95% re-election rates since 1996. However, I was encouraged slightly to see enough voters rise up and flood D.C. with letters, phone calls, and FAXes in order to defeat the last shamnesty BILL that the Democrats tried to pass. Even thought Democrats have the majority, enough politicians finally stopped another amnesty like the one in 1986 that quadrupled the problem. Unfortunately, Do-Nothing Congress did very little of anything else to enforce existing laws, build the fence passed by a BILL in late 2006, or stop illegal aliens from flooding across our near wide-open borders.
    • [06] Mexico is very corrupt. We will not raise our economy by absorbing all of their uneducated and impoverished people. It will merely pull us down. Believing it will raise Mexico to our level is stupid. The U.S. can not raise the standard of living for a nation like Mexico when it is so poor, corrupt, and uneducated. Letting them all come here relieves pressure on their own corrupt government and illegal aliens send money back to Mexico. None of this is good for America in any way. Cheap labor is not cheap. Illegal aliens cost American tax payers of $70 billlion per year in NET losses.
    • [07] The Mexican people suffer the same problem Americans do, but worse. The Mexican people will not reform their own government. Thus they come to the U.S. where it is much better. They disrespect our laws. Most Americans do not want them here and want them to leave. Most Americans also want the massive inflow to stop. But most American voters lack the will to act … too many American voters will not even stop for one moment to understand that repeatedly rewarding irresponsible incumbent politicians is why they refuse to enforce existing laws. Thus, Americans have the government they deserve, and their country is being overrun by illegal aliens.
    RGF wrote: You are not getting that because you are not reading or understanding what I am telling you.
    Not true. Disagreement does not equate to not reading or understanding.
    RGF wrote: What is happening is that the Mexicans are helping themselves since we are failing to take responsibility for the economic manipulations we have excercised which have PUT THEM THERE! i.e. The bucarreli agreement, backing the coup of Victoriano Huerta, the maquiladoras and more recently, Nafta!
    Again, greedy, corrupt politicians are behind that. Most voters want it stopped. Unfortunately, voters do not understand that they are responsible too if they continually reward corrupt, do-nothing, greedy incumbent politicians that despicably pit American citizens and illegal aliens against each other. The majority of Americans want illegal immigration stopped, reject another amnesty that quadrupled the problem like the amnesty of 1986, want the borders secured, want the burdens on the tax payers stopped, and want the increased crime rates, diseaase and job loss eliminated now.
    RGF wrote: d.a.n. The “Solution” you propose is preposterous and self defeating.
    Not true. It is a practical solution. It does not deport illegal aliens unless they are already in our jails. Illegal aliens will leave when there is no jobs for them here … just like that left where ever they came from to come here.
    RGF wrote: Mexico and all of Latin America is a pressure cooker both economically and politically.
    So what? We’ve got our own pressure cooker, and the pressure is going to grow as the standard of living continues to fall here due to the burdens of illegal immigration, massive debt, a corrupt money and banking system, increasing constitutional violations, violation of Article V, increasing disparity of wealth (1% of U.S. population has 40% of all wealth, up from 20% in 1980), corruption, energy vulnerabilities, and too many apathetic, complacent, lazy voters that may fail to do anything about any of it until it is too late.
    RGF wrote: If you turn up the heat, i.e. your “Solution,” The whole thing will explode and we’ll have even more immigrants coming here faster than ever!
    Not true. Secure the borders and stop illegal employers, and they can’t and won’t come here any more, and those here already will leave the same way they left where ever they came from to come here.
    RGF wrote: The only SOLUTION is for Mexico to achieve a standard of living more commensurate with our own.
    That is not possible. The U.S. is not going to continue to abosorb their population. The people of Mexico need to get some balls and fix their own government, and enough Americans need to get some balls and protect their own borders, jobs, welfare services, and sovereignty.
    RGF wrote: That way, more of them will stay home and work, we will have a more valuable trade partner/neighbor and great strides will have been made into stabilizing the once volitile and dangerous region of Latin America.
    Not likely. Not even remotely. The solution is for the people of BOTH countries to reform their own corrupt governments, and stop empowering and allowing their own corrupt politicians to despicably pit the people of each nation against each other; stop allowing despicable, greedy, FOR politicians to pit American citizens and illegal aliens against each other.
    RGF wrote: Hell, d.a.n., the Cubans and Haitians are swimming across the Carribean.
    Again, that is because those people don’t have the balls to fix their own countries. That does not give illegal aliens the right to break our laws. The U.S. can not take care of the rest of the world. The U.S. is already in deep debt. 40% of Americans are broke. 60% of the U.S. population has only 5% of all wealth.
    RGF wrote: Do you imagine the Mexicans and other Latin Americans cannot find a way?
    They can as long as our borders and shores are wide open, and too many American voters repeatedly reward greedy, do-nothing, irresponsible, incumbent politicians for despicably pitting Americans and illegal aliens against each other.
    RGF wrote: They have even already demonstrated the utter folly of those silly imbeciles, the “minutemen,” by building a BERM on the Mexican side of the fence those fools built!
    You call the Minute Men imbeciles?

    Trying to secure our borders is folly?
    Wow. that is very revealing.

    RGF wrote: What you propose is every bit as silly and ultimately wasteful as the war on drugs!
    Not true. You don’t want it because you are clearly a proponent of immigration (legal or not), as evidenced by your negative comments about the Minutemen.
    RGF wrote: It’s a boondoggle that caters to voter-manipulation and the wanton waste of tax dollars in contracts to political supporters who will benefit from what you propose! It’s PURE FOLLY.
    Not true.

    The SOLUTION is quite doable.

    THE SOLUTION: Since some (i.e. irresponsible incumbent politicians that refuse to enforce the laws, and greedy employers of illegal aliens that violate the laws) within the U.S. practically invited illegal aliens here, we should show some compassion for those that are merely looking for work and a better way of life. Making illegal aliens felons for merely being here illegally is NOT the solution.

    • Secure the borders immediately (with a mere 5.9% (i.e. 153,000 border patrol) of the total 2.6 million military, guard, and reserves). The $10 Billion annual cost of securing the borders will result in a much larger net savings of $60 Billion per year to American tax payers, since illegal aliens cost American tax payers over $70 Billion per year.

    • Require enforcement of all immigration laws. Enforce the existing laws.

    • Require deportation of ALL illegal entries and visa overstays currently within our jails and prisons (i.e. within our custody).

    • Require ALL employers to use the Social Security Verification System for ALL hires. Prosecute violators.

    • Deny ALL illegal alien births automatic citizenship. Stop the abuse of anchor babies to acquire Blue Passports.

    • Deny ALL illegal aliens a FREE K-12 education.

    • Deny ALL illegal aliens ANY and ALL public benefits (welfare, Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, etc.), except Emergency healthcare

    • Deny ALL illegal aliens driver’s licenses.

    • Deny ALL illegal aliens college tuition.

    • Verify ALL voter’s citizenship, before permission to vote. Biometrics could be helpful.

    • Provide $500 (per person) and pre-paid transportation to each illegal alien volunteering to leave the U.S.

    • With no more magnets (no jobs, welfare, education, etc.), the remaining illegal aliens will leave voluntarily. Allow all illegal aliens to leave on their own, with their own property. Those wishing to immigrate to the U.S. must get in line behind those already seeking to immigrate legally.

    • Lastly, voters must recognize that nothing is likely to ever improve as long as voters reward irresponsible incumbent politicians by repeatedly re-electing them and empowering them to (despicably) pit American citizens and illegal aliens against each other.

    RECOMMENDATION:

    • Stop rewarding irresponsible incumbent politicians by repeatedly re-electing them. Stop rewarding irresponsible incumbent politicians that are (despicably) pitting American citizens and illegal aliens against each other!

    • Vote for challengers, rather than repeatedly rewarding irresponsible incumbent politicians that refuse to pass many badly-needed, common-sense, no-brainer, responsible reforms, and refuse to adequately address the nation’s most pressing problems.

    • In a voting nation, education of the electorate (i.e. the voters) is paramount ! The voters will receive their education (eventually) one way or another, and sooner would be better (and less painful) than later. Until the voters do their duty, they have the government and situation they deserve.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 13, 2007 5:48 PM
    Comment #232752
    RGF wrote: d.a.n. You are making assumptions about my arguement that make it clear you have not read anything of what I have been saying from the beginning.
    Not true. I read all of it and simply disagree completely with almost all of your arguments.
    RGF wrote: Since that is also rather obvious to anybody and everybody reading our discussion, you are defeating yourself rather handily.
    Not true. After all, the very title of this thread is your problem: “Misplaced Compassion”
    RGF wrote: What I am trying to get you to understand, has more to do with JUSTICE, TAKING RESPONSIBILITY and RECOGNIZING TRUTH, than it does with compassion.
    I see the truth. The problem is:
    • [01] Greedy employers in the U.S.
    • [02] Illegal aliens from all over the world want to take advantage of the jobs from greedy illegal employers, our welfare, healthcare, ERs, public education, and numerous services.
    • [03] Greedy, FOR-SALE, bought-and-paid-for politicians refuse to enforce existing laws to prosecute illegal employers.
    • [04] Bleeding hearts have more compassion for illegal aliens that steal from them and kill 3.6 to 26 Americans per day, and have a stupid excuse for everything. Any one that disagrees is a racist, has no compassion, is a hypocrite, etc., etc., etc. The only excuse that carries any weight but still doesn’t justify increased immigration (legal or not) is that slumbering voters refuse to stop re-electing the politicians that are stabbing them in the back.
    • [05] Too many complacent, apathetic, lazy, fat Americans will act to stop it, even though it is costing them over $70 Billion annually in net losses (not even including the cost of 3.6 to 26 homicides per day, increased crime, disease, and job displacement). Too many American voters care enough to even vote at all (40% to 40% don’t vote). Those that do vote repeatedly reward the very same despicable politicians that are pitting voters and illegal aliens against each other; rewarding incumbent politicians with 90% to 95% re-election rates since 1996. However, I was encouraged slightly to see enough voters rise up and flood D.C. with letters, phone calls, and FAXes in order to defeat the last shamnesty BILL that the Democrats tried to pass. Even thought Democrats have the majority, enough politicians finally stopped another amnesty like the one in 1986 that quadrupled the problem. Unfortunately, Do-Nothing Congress did very little of anything else to enforce existing laws, build the fence passed by a BILL in late 2006, or stop illegal aliens from flooding across our near wide-open borders.
    • [06] Mexico is very corrupt. We will not raise our economy by absorbing all of their uneducated and impoverished people. It will merely pull us down. Believing it will raise Mexico to our level is stupid. The U.S. can not raise the standard of living for a nation like Mexico when it is so poor, corrupt, and uneducated. Letting them all come here relieves pressure on their own corrupt government and illegal aliens send money back to Mexico. None of this is good for America in any way. Cheap labor is not cheap. Illegal aliens cost American tax payers of $70 billlion per year in NET losses.
    • [07] The Mexican people suffer the same problem Americans do, but worse. The Mexican people will not reform their own government. Thus they come to the U.S. where it is much better. They disrespect our laws. Most Americans do not want them here and want them to leave. Most Americans also want the massive inflow to stop. But most American voters lack the will to act … too many American voters will not even stop for one moment to understand that repeatedly rewarding irresponsible incumbent politicians is why they refuse to enforce existing laws. Thus, Americans have the government they deserve, and their country is being overrun by illegal aliens.
    RGF wrote: You are not getting that because you are not reading or understanding what I am telling you.
    Not true. Disagreement does not equate to not reading or understanding.
    RGF wrote: What is happening is that the Mexicans are helping themselves since we are failing to take responsibility for the economic manipulations we have excercised which have PUT THEM THERE! i.e. The bucarreli agreement, backing the coup of Victoriano Huerta, the maquiladoras and more recently, Nafta!
    Again, greedy, corrupt politicians are behind that. Most voters want it stopped. Unfortunately, voters do not understand that they are responsible too if they continually reward corrupt, do-nothing, greedy incumbent politicians that despicably pit American citizens and illegal aliens against each other. The majority of Americans want illegal immigration stopped, reject another amnesty that quadrupled the problem like the amnesty of 1986, want the borders secured, want the burdens on the tax payers stopped, and want the increased crime rates, diseaase and job loss eliminated now.
    RGF wrote: d.a.n. The “Solution” you propose is preposterous and self defeating.
    Not true. It is a practical solution. It does not deport illegal aliens unless they are already in our jails. Illegal aliens will leave when there is no jobs for them here … just like that left where ever they came from to come here.
    RGF wrote: Mexico and all of Latin America is a pressure cooker both economically and politically.
    So what? We’ve got our own pressure cooker, and the pressure is going to grow as the standard of living continues to fall here due to the burdens of illegal immigration, massive debt, a corrupt money and banking system, increasing constitutional violations, violation of Article V, increasing disparity of wealth (1% of U.S. population has 40% of all wealth, up from 20% in 1980), corruption, energy vulnerabilities, and too many apathetic, complacent, lazy voters that may fail to do anything about any of it until it is too late.
    RGF wrote: If you turn up the heat, i.e. your “Solution,” The whole thing will explode and we’ll have even more immigrants coming here faster than ever!
    Not true. Secure the borders and stop illegal employers, and they can’t and won’t come here any more, and those here already will leave the same way they left where ever they came from to come here.
    RGF wrote: The only SOLUTION is for Mexico to achieve a standard of living more commensurate with our own.
    That is not possible. The U.S. is not going to continue to abosorb their population. The people of Mexico need to get some balls and fix their own government, and enough Americans need to get some balls and protect their own borders, jobs, welfare services, and sovereignty.
    RGF wrote: That way, more of them will stay home and work, we will have a more valuable trade partner/neighbor and great strides will have been made into stabilizing the once volitile and dangerous region of Latin America.
    Not likely. Not even remotely. The solution is for the people of BOTH countries to reform their own corrupt governments, and stop empowering and allowing their own corrupt politicians to despicably pit the people of each nation against each other; stop allowing despicable, greedy, FOR politicians to pit American citizens and illegal aliens against each other.
    RGF wrote: Hell, d.a.n., the Cubans and Haitians are swimming across the Carribean.
    Again, that is because those people don’t have the balls to fix their own countries. That does not give illegal aliens the right to break our laws. The U.S. can not take care of the rest of the world. The U.S. is already in deep debt. 40% of Americans are broke. 60% of the U.S. population has only 5% of all wealth.
    RGF wrote: Do you imagine the Mexicans and other Latin Americans cannot find a way?
    They can as long as our borders and shores are wide open, and too many American voters repeatedly reward greedy, do-nothing, irresponsible, incumbent politicians for despicably pitting Americans and illegal aliens against each other.
    RGF wrote: They have even already demonstrated the utter folly of those silly imbeciles, the “minutemen,” by building a BERM on the Mexican side of the fence those fools built!
    You call the Minute Men imbeciles?

    Trying to secure our borders is folly?
    Wow. that is very revealing.

    RGF wrote: What you propose is every bit as silly and ultimately wasteful as the war on drugs!
    Not true. You don’t want it because you are clearly a proponent of immigration (legal or not), as evidenced by your negative comments about the Minutemen.
    RGF wrote: It’s a boondoggle that caters to voter-manipulation and the wanton waste of tax dollars in contracts to political supporters who will benefit from what you propose! It’s PURE FOLLY.
    Not true.

    The SOLUTION is quite doable.

    THE SOLUTION: Since some (i.e. irresponsible incumbent politicians that refuse to enforce the laws, and greedy employers of illegal aliens that violate the laws) within the U.S. practically invited illegal aliens here, we should show some compassion for those that are merely looking for work and a better way of life. Making illegal aliens felons for merely being here illegally is NOT the solution.

    • Secure the borders immediately (with a mere 5.9% (i.e. 153,000 border patrol) of the total 2.6 million military, guard, and reserves). The $10 Billion annual cost of securing the borders will result in a much larger net savings of $60 Billion per year to American tax payers, since illegal aliens cost American tax payers over $70 Billion per year.

    • Require enforcement of all immigration laws. Enforce the existing laws.

    • Require deportation of ALL illegal entries and visa overstays currently within our jails and prisons (i.e. within our custody).

    • Require ALL employers to use the Social Security Verification System for ALL hires. Prosecute violators.

    • Deny ALL illegal alien births automatic citizenship. Stop the abuse of anchor babies to acquire Blue Passports.

    • Deny ALL illegal aliens a FREE K-12 education.

    • Deny ALL illegal aliens ANY and ALL public benefits (welfare, Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, etc.), except Emergency healthcare

    • Deny ALL illegal aliens driver’s licenses.

    • Deny ALL illegal aliens college tuition.

    • Verify ALL voter’s citizenship, before permission to vote. Biometrics could be helpful.

    • Provide $500 (per person) and pre-paid transportation to each illegal alien volunteering to leave the U.S.

    • With no more magnets (no jobs, welfare, education, etc.), the remaining illegal aliens will leave voluntarily. Allow all illegal aliens to leave on their own, with their own property. Those wishing to immigrate to the U.S. must get in line behind those already seeking to immigrate legally.

    • Lastly, voters must recognize that nothing is likely to ever improve as long as voters reward irresponsible incumbent politicians by repeatedly re-electing them and empowering them to (despicably) pit American citizens and illegal aliens against each other.

    RECOMMENDATION:

    • Stop rewarding irresponsible incumbent politicians by repeatedly re-electing them. Stop rewarding irresponsible incumbent politicians that are (despicably) pitting American citizens and illegal aliens against each other!

    • Vote for challengers, rather than repeatedly rewarding irresponsible incumbent politicians that refuse to pass many badly-needed, common-sense, no-brainer, responsible reforms, and refuse to adequately address the nation’s most pressing problems.

    • In a voting nation, education of the electorate (i.e. the voters) is paramount ! The voters will receive their education (eventually) one way or another, and sooner would be better (and less painful) than later. Until the voters do their duty, they have the government and situation they deserve.
    For those of you wanting to help stop illegal immigration, visit the following:
    • (1) NumbersUSA.com

    • (2) Alipac.us

    • (3) WeNeedAFence.com

    • (4) FairUs.org - How to Stop Illegal Immigration

    • (5) immigrationshumancost.org

    • (6) securedbordersusa.com

    • (7) predatoryaliens.com

    • (8) cciiwc.net

    • (9) grades.betterimmigration.com

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 13, 2007 5:49 PM
    Comment #232753

    d.a.n.

    You are not seeing the forest for the trees.

    No matter.

    As I pointed out:
    This issue will not be changed by anything you can do or say. To waste time on it is folly.
    This problem is actually going to be solved by the Mexicans themselves.

    In the meantime, rant and rave all you want. You are allowing yourself to be manipulated by the morons in Washington.

    Posted by: RGF at September 13, 2007 6:03 PM
    Comment #232760
    RGF wrote: d.a.n. You are not seeing the forest for the trees.
    Not true. I see all your points and addressed all of them one-by-one. I simply disagree. That does not equate to “not seeing” or “not understanding”. Just because people don’t agree with you does not mean they they are “not seeing” or “not understandinging”.
    RGF wrote:This problem is actually going to be solved by the Mexicans themselves.
    Is that a threat?

    I also found your comments about the Minutemen quite revealing too.

    And your comment that “I would bet my money that one Mexican could outwork any TEN Americans” is quite revealing.

    Your pro-immigration motivations and sentiments are all too clear. You are a perfect, stereotypical example of the title of this thread by Jack: “Misplaced Compassion”.

    Maybe, when they get the balls to fix their own country and quit coming here to take advantage of ours.

    RGF wrote: In the meantime, rant and rave all you want.
    Whose ranting and raving? You now appear upset and trying to mischaracterize the debate now that all of your lame arguments have been thoroughly addressed and rejected … a typical and common sign of a weak argument.

    I provided detailed and comprehensive answers and reasons in response to all of your arguments. You now seem upset. That is most like because the of the weakness of your arguments.

    I also find your comments

    RGF wrote: You are allowing yourself to be manipulated by the morons in Washington.
    No doubt D.C. is a lot of morons in it, and I’m working to change that. Too bad more Americans aren’t. But they will, when the consequences of too many voters’ apathy, complacency, and laziness becomes too painful. It’s a built-in self-correction mechanism. Pain and misery eventually trumps greed. But it is also a cycle where progress is very slow. 2.000 steps forward, and 1.999 steps backward. Posted by: d.a.n at September 13, 2007 6:32 PM
    Comment #232763

    d.a.n.

    You most assuredly have NOT addressed any point I offered you.

    If you choose to continue wasting your time and effort with this issue, so be it. Just do it with open eyes.

    I have worked in the immigration field long to enough to know better than to buy into the folly you are trying to sell.

    If you had so much as read what I offered you, you would at least understand how silly the evidence you are repetitively trying to sell truely is. You are playing into the very things I am trying to draw your, and people’s, attention to.

    Nothing will ever be done on this issue by politics or government unless it is to bring some kind of silly waste of tax-dollars type of boondoggle-pork project like some kind of wall.

    No matter - The Mexicans are solving this one for us, and themselves, both. Soon, the major border concern will be the Mexico-Guatamala border.

    In the meantime, if you or anyone allows themselves to be manipulated based on the “Immigration issue” by means of the “Immigration report card” or any other such none-sense…
    Well, you’ll just be allowing yourselves to be fooled by those who are agitating on this issue for reasons that have everything to do with American politics and nothing to do with anything at all concerning immigration or even Mexico.

    Posted by: RGF at September 13, 2007 6:46 PM
    Comment #232767
    RGF wrote: You are playing into the very things I am trying to draw your, and people’s, attention to.
    I am trying to draw people’s attention to the folly of what you are talking about. You have already revealed your pro-immigration motiviations by your criticism of the Minutemen and American workers. My goal is to shoot holes in your arguments, which isn’t very hard since they are so weak in the first place.

    WeNeedAFence.com
    Crime
    Burdens on the U.S. Taxpayers: over $70 Billion annually

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 13, 2007 7:38 PM
    Comment #232812

    d.a.n.

    Your evidence isn’t even relevent under the circumstances.

    I know you are capable of more analytical thought than this, I’ve seen it on other issues.
    Why are you so blinded on this issue?

    The minutemen are allowing themselves to be fooled. They are politcally agitating on an issue that will never be changed through politics or government. They are also fooled because they are blinded as to the whole story. So are you, it seems.

    Many of your previous posts have me believing that you are a bright and capable thinker, what gives here? Why are you so closed to reading the whole story???

    Where, in any of your posts, is the recognition of the responsibility we have as Americans for the actions of our American forebears who created the problems which drive Mexican and Latin American laborers across our borders today???

    Where in any of your posts is the recognition of the corporate entities who wield campaign money and thus influence and are, quite literally invested in the status quo???

    Where in your posts is there even any of your own thoughts on the value of raising the standard of living in Mexico??? …something the Mexicans are doing for themselves since we, as poor neighbors, have only been involved in actively trying to increase the disparity!

    This entire is moot because the Mexicans are solving the problem for us. The Mexicans themselves are investing in Mexico and the standard of living is improving there dramatically. Even if we were to build a wall, it would be nothing but a pork-barrel boondoggle. The ONLY solution to our current border situation is for the standard of living in Mexico to improve to a level more commensurate with our own.

    Remember the War on Drugs?
    What happened?
    The increased enforcement caused the value of the drugs to go UP and the result was exponentially MORE drug traffic, not less.

    Posted by: RGF at September 14, 2007 12:05 PM
    Comment #232829
    RGF wrote: d.a.n. Your evidence isn’t even relevent under the circumstances.
    Yes it is. It debunks the many lies and excuses for condoning illegal (even promoting) immigration, not to mention the untold costs of increased crime rates due to illegal aliens, disease, job displacement, and importing the impoverished and less educated by the millions.
    RGF wrote: Why are you so blinded on this issue?
    I’m not. You are. You demonize the Minutemen.
    RGF wrote: They [Minutemen] have even already demonstrated the utter folly of those silly imbeciles, the “minutemen,” by building a BERM on the Mexican side of the fence those fools [Minutemen] built!
    RGF wrote: “I would bet my money that one Mexican could outwork any TEN Americans”.
    RGF wrote: The minutemen are allowing themselves to be fooled. They are politcally agitating on an issue that will never be changed through politics or government. They are also fooled because they are blinded as to the whole story. So are you, it seems.
    Americans have the right to protect our borders and sovereignty; especially since millions want to disrespect our laws, and come here to take advantage of our social programs. 32% of illegal aliens receive welfare. 29% of all incarcerated in federal prisons are illegal aliens. Our ERs and hospitals are being overrun by illegal aliens. Half don’t pay income taxes. They bring disease and increased crime rates with them. Illegal aliens cost American tax payers over $70 Billion annually in NET losses, which does not even include the untold cost of crime, disease, and job displacement.
    RGF wrote: Why are you so closed to reading the whole story???
    I have. Disagreement does not equate to “closed”.
    RGF wrote: Where, in any of your posts, is the recognition of the responsibility we have as Americans for the actions of our American forebears who created the problems which drive Mexican and Latin American laborers across our borders today???
    I acknowledged that many times.

    Yes, our politicians are despicable for pitting American citizens and illegal aliens against each other and refusing to enforce existing laws and refusing to secure our borders. And too many apathetic, complacent, lazy American voters allow it by repeatedly rewarding irresponsible, bought-and-paid-for incumbent politicians with 90% to 95% re-election rates.

    However, that still does not condone illegal immigration, or another amnesty.

    RGF wrote: Where in any of your posts is the recognition of the corporate entities who wield campaign money and thus influence and are, quite literally invested in the status quo???
    Not true. I have done that too many times. Just press Ctrl-F and search this thread for the word greedy to see how many times I called those corporations greedy.
    RGF wrote: Where in your posts is there even any of your own thoughts on the value of raising the standard of living in Mexico??? …something the Mexicans are doing for themselves since we, as poor neighbors, have only been involved in actively trying to increase the disparity!
    It is not just about Mexico. It’s about ALL illegal aliens from all over the world.

    The standard of living in Mexico is not my responsibility. Mexico is more responsible for their own problems than anyone else. They should fix their own country rather than coming here and abusing ours too. Especially when illegal aliens from Mexico ignores and disrespects our laws. Expecially since many illegal aliens just come here to steal and abuse our social programs. Especially since many illegal aliens come here to murder 3.6 to 26 people in the U.S. per day.

    RGF wrote: This entire is moot because the Mexicans are solving the problem for us. The Mexicans themselves are investing in Mexico and the standard of living is improving there dramatically.
    Think so?

    Why are more and more cities across the nation passing laws to refuse services and apartment rentals to illegal aliens? If the federal government won’t do anything, the states will. That is why Texas is putting more border patrol on the borders. Cities in Texas are changing the laws to stop renting apartments to illegal aliens. More fences are being built. The American people are getting fed-up with it. The American people are startting to fight back.

    Read it and weep …

  • Operation nets 28 illegal aliens in Chaparral
    Alamogordo Daily News
    By J.R. Oppenheim, Staff Photographer/Writer
    Article Launched: 09/12/2007 12:00:00 AM MDT
    In a joint operation between the Border Patrol and the Otero and Doña Ana County sheriff’s departments, 28 illegal aliens were identified Monday in the Chaparral area, Otero County sheriff’s department officials said Tuesday.
    The Otero County sheriff’s department participated in a “Stonegarden

  • Thursday, September 13, 2007: Suspected illegal aliens arrested
    MARQUETTE — Eleven suspected illegal aliens were arrested in Negaunee Township early Wednesday morning, following an investigation by several law enforcement agencies.

  • Wednesday, September 12, 2007 - 2:00 am: Four people have been taken into custody and are expected in federal court this morning in connection with what the FBI alleges was a West Greenville prostitution ring that involved the exploitation of several illegal alien women.
    Four people were charged with “keeping, maintaining, controlling, supporting, employing, harboring illegal aliens for the purpose of prostitution,” according to an FBI affidavit.
    The alleged ring involved the prostitution of at least six women who entered the country illegally, according to the affidavit. It alleges that the ring was based from a residence at 52 Dorsey Blvd. off Easley Bridge Road and received women from the Charlotte area.

  • Sep 12 2007 11:54AM: (From Don May, KCJB) Minot, N.D. (AP) Four men in Minot suspected of being illegal aliens are being deported.
    Kevin Bauman with the Border Patrol in Grand Forks says the men will be sent to Minneapolis, where they will appear before an immigration judge.
    The four men were arrested yesterday after reports of a possible vehicle break-in. Police found they actually had locked their keys inside a car.

  • September 11, 2007: FRANKFORT — A bill to crack down on illegal aliens working and living in Kentucky is to be filed by State Representative Rick Nelson. The bill is to be considered by the 2008 Kentucky General Assembly. By giving local law enforcement the ability to enforce immigration laws and by increasing prosecution of businesses that hire illegal aliens, Nelson said his proposal will “significantly reduce” the number of undocumented workers in the state. He also said the bill will also cut down on the total number of illegal aliens in Kentucky by making it less desirable for undocumented workers to locate their families here. “Our schools, jails and tax system is being crushed under the weight of Kentucky’s illegal immigration crisis. The only way to solve the problem is to make it more difficult for undocumented workers to find employment in our state. That is what will happen under this tough piece of legislation,” stated Nelson.

  • 09/11/2007: Herndon immigration enforcement nets results - The Herndon Police Department said it has netted more than a dozen suspected illegal aliens in the first two months since it began participating in a federal immigration enforcement program. Town police have received Immigration and Customs Enforcement training through the 287(g) program, authorizing selected officers to enforce immigration laws. According to Herndon Police Chief Toussaint Summers, for the months of June and July - reportedly the first full months of 287(g) participation - 13 out of 19 contacts made in accordance with the program resulted in detained individuals being turned over to the Fairfax County Adult Detention Center. Those suspected illegal aliens will eventually be processed through the federal court system for possible deportation.

  • Sep 14, 2007: People trafficking attempts foiled: VILNIUS - A truck from Lithuania containing a cargo of illegal migrants to western Europe has been caught at the Polish-German border, Lithuanian National Radio has reported. On Thursday, Polish border guards and the German federal police found 11 migrants hiding behind a cargo of timber in a German-bound truck from Lithuania at the border crossing point in Svieck. A spokesperson for Polish border guards said 8 of the 11 illegal aliens were Chechens, and that several children were among them.
    All were identified as escapees from the Dembc illegal alien camp near Warsaw. They were travelling with two citizens of Sri Lanka and one Indian. They said they embarked on their journey from a point in Lithuania approximately 50 kilometers from the border but were unable to specify the exact location. The 43-year-old Lithuanian truck driver was arrested by German police.
    It is the second truck from Lithuania carrying illegal migrants to be detained at the Svieck crossing point this week. On Monday, border guards arrested a 34-year-old Lithuanian driver transporting 12 people from Pakistan and Vietnam hidden behind a cargo of furniture.

  • Sep 10, 2007 07:07 AM CDT : Illegal Aliens Nabbed in Local Traffic Stop - A traffic stop leads to the arrest of ten illegal aliens. It happened Sunday on a Livingston County highway. A state police trooper stopped a van for having tinted windows. When none of the people inside could speak English, the trooper began to investigate. He found that all ten people are illegal aliens from Mexico and Guatemala. All of those people have been arrested and are in the Livingston County Jail.
  • RGF wrote: Even if we were to build a wall, it would be nothing but a pork-barrel boondoggle. The ONLY solution to our current border situation is for the standard of living in Mexico to improve to a level more commensurate with our own.
    It’s not a wall. A fence, technology, and border patrol. See: WeNeedAFence.com
    RGF wrote: Remember the War on Drugs? What happened? The increased enforcement caused the value of the drugs to go UP and the result was exponentially MORE drug traffic, not less.
    Drugs are a problem. And most of them are coming from Mexico. Yes, what a good neighbor.

    Pushing drugs to children is a crime.
    I don’t care what adults do as long as they don’t endanger the lives of others.
    They can overdose and die if they are that stupid.
    But pushing drugs to children is and should be a crime and the laws to stop that should be enforced.
    So I don’t have a problem with enforcing laws to prevent drug pushers.

    You seem to have a lot of compassion for illegal aliens.
    Where is your compassion for Americans?
    Oh … right. That is crystal clear by your comments:

    RGF wrote:
    They [Minutemen] have even already demonstrated the utter folly of those silly imbeciles, the “minutemen,” by building a BERM on the Mexican side of the fence those fools [Minutemen] built!

    RGF wrote:
    “I would bet my money that one Mexican could outwork any TEN Americans”.

    RGF wrote:
    The minutemen are allowing themselves to be fooled. They are politcally agitating on an issue that will never be changed through politics or government. They are also fooled because they are blinded as to the whole story. So are you, it seems.

    See the following for more information:

    • ALIPAC.us (millions of Americans for stopping illegal immigration)

    • NumbersUSA.com (there’s a lot of valuable research here; also FAX your Congress persons)

    • BetterImmigration.com (see Congress Person’s Report Cards on illegal immigration; see who has the most F’s and D’s)

    • ImmigrationsHumanCost.org (crime victims)

    • IllegalAliens.US (many topics covered here)

    • ReportIllegals.com (report illegal employers and illegal aliens)

    • More cost studies of the Cost of illegal immigration

    In fact, I think I’ll make some more donations today to NumbersUSA.com and ALIPAC.US .

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 14, 2007 2:15 PM
    Comment #232833

    d.a.n.

    Good grief you’re stubborn.

    YOU HAVEN’T READ ANYTHING I’VE SAID HAVE YOU?

    You missed the boat enitirely, d.a.n.

    This is pointless. Your stubborn re-assurtions, without any thought to what am talking about, is the weakest argument I have ever seen.

    You don’t seem willing to even consider the whole picture.

    You are actually defeating your own argument as a result.

    Posted by: RGF at September 14, 2007 2:29 PM
    Comment #232835

    d.a.n.

    An indulged child is not a child raised with compassion.

    It is you who lack compassion for Americans.
    It is I who believe we should take responsibility for our actions.

    Posted by: RGF at September 14, 2007 2:32 PM
    Comment #232846
    RGF wrote: d.a.n. Good grief you’re stubborn.
    No. I don’t agree with you at all.

    See, you can’t win with facts, reason, and logic, so you now resort to calling me stubborn; a definite sign of a weak argument.
    All the name-calling in the world won’t change the facts or the majority of Americans that want illegal immigration stopped.

    RGF wrote: YOU HAVEN’T READ ANYTHING I’VE SAID HAVE YOU?
    I have, even though it is a waste of time. But it gives me the opportunity to keep shooting holes in your lame excuses, non-sequiturs, and misplaced compassion.
    RGF wrote: You missed the boat enitirely, d.a.n.
    Not true. I simply don’t agree with your misplaced compassion; the title of this thread.
    RGF wrote: This is pointless. Your stubborn re-assurtions, without any thought to what am talking about, is the weakest argument I have ever seen.
    I list facts, data, polls, laws, and articles. You just list your opinion. The majority of Americans want illegal immigration stopped now, and they are finally taking steps to stop it.
    RGF wrote: You don’t seem willing to even consider the whole picture.
    Yes I do. Disagreeing with your pro-immigration motivations does not equate to “willing to even consider the whole picture”.
    RGF wrote: You are actually defeating your own argument as a result.
    Not true. Most Americans agree with me. And rightfully so. The are tired of illegal aliens coming here, stealing from our public services, murdering 3.6 to 26 people per day, taking jobs, and arrogantly demanding rights they don’t deserve.
    RGF wrote: d.a.n. An indulged child is not a child raised with compassion.
    OK. If you say so. I guess you would know. What that has to do with illegal immigration is a mystery.
    RGF wrote: It is you who lack compassion for Americans.
    Really? It is you that wrote …
    RGF wrote: They [Minutemen] have even already demonstrated the utter folly of those silly imbeciles, the “minutemen,” by building a BERM on the Mexican side of the fence those fools [Minutemen] built!
    RGF wrote: “I would bet my money that one Mexican could outwork any TEN Americans”.
    RGF wrote: The minutemen are allowing themselves to be fooled. They are politcally agitating on an issue that will never be changed through politics or government. They are also fooled because they are blinded as to the whole story. So are you, it seems.
    RGF wrote: It is I who believe we should take responsibility for our actions.
    Like granting amnesty to illegal aliens?

    RGF,

    • Where is the compassion for U.S. citizens that go without healthcare and access to ERs because ERs and hospitals are over-flowing with illegal aliens (of which many don’t pay)? Is this fair to U.S. tax payers?

    • Where is the compassion for the truly needy U.S. citizens that can not get help because of limited resources, because 32% of illegal aliens receive welfare ?

    • Where is the compassion for the illegal aliens being lured here for sub-minimum wage jobs, creating an under-paid, under-class (practically slavery) ?

    • Where is the outrage of the greedy employers of illegal aliens ?

    • Where is the compassion for the U.S. victims and survivors of crimes perpetrated by illegal aliens (29% of all incarcerated in federal prisons are illegal aliens), and the crime rates are rising.

    • Where is the compassion for U.S. Americans who’s lives have been changed forever by illegal aliens that spread disease ? One illegal alien in Santa Barbara, California infected 56 other people with tuberculosis as reported on April 24, 2004, by the Santa Barbara Press-News, “Anatomy of an Outbreak”. Because illegal alien migration into the USA continues unabated for the past 20 years, we now have 16,000 new cases of incurable MDR tuberculosis in the past five years. We suffer 7,000 new cases of leprosy. We tolerate 100,000 new cases of hepatitis “A” in our society. Chagas Disease, which affects 14 million South Americans and kills 50,000 annually, streams across our borders as unchecked thousands of them enter our society. If your child goes to public school, they could be exposed, as thousands already have been.

    • Where is the compassion for the people murdered every day by an illegal alien (Source: GAO-05-646R based on study group of 55,322 illegal aliens over a 57 year period)

    • Where is the compassion for all of the people that do not want to see a repeat of 11-Sep-2001, which was perpetrated by several illegal aliens ?

    • In view of all that above, how could anyone use the excuse that the U.S. would crumble (economically) without cheap labor? Even if it were true (which it isn’t), does that justify a sub-minimum-wage under-class ? The economy would not crumble, as much as some want to believe it, since the majority of those done by illegal aliens are low-wage, low-skill jobs, and would not generate much in tax revenue, even if half those that don’t pay taxes started paying taxes. Even if it were true, does it justify the perpetuation of an under-paid under-class?? Are we all going to be like Senator Linsey Graham (R-SC) who said: “as a golfer, I probably benefit from their [illegal aliens] labor.” ?
      Nevermind that S.C. has the highest rate of violent crime (excluding D.C.) of any state in the U.S. and it is largely due to illegal aliens.

    • Where is the compassion for the U.S. tax payers net losses of over $70 billion per year due to all the numerous problems stemming from illegal aliens?

    • Where is your compasssion for the 2.3 million displaced American workers?

    • Where is the compassion for all of the U.S. policemen murdered by illegal aliens? On 13-Nov-2005, Brian Jackson, a Dallas policeman was shot and killed by an illegal alien, Juan Lizcano. Lizcano had become drunk and went to the home of his ex-girfriend to threaten her. As the police pursued Lizcano after he fled the woman’s home, he shot Officer Jackson, who died later in the hospital. Officer Jackson was remembered by his fellow police as someone who loved his job and always went the extra mile. In Denver, Colorado, an illegal deliberately ran over a Denver polceman in a school cross walk “breaking his legs along with severe internal injuries. This is not anectdotal. This tragedy has occurred over and over in many cities across the U.S. Those are crimes that should have never happened.

    THE SOLUTION to ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 14, 2007 4:37 PM
    Comment #232847
    RGF wrote: d.a.n. Good grief you’re stubborn.
    No. I don’t agree with you at all.

    See, you can’t win with facts, reason, and logic, so you now resort to calling me stubborn; a definite sign of a weak argument.
    All the name-calling in the world won’t change the facts or the majority of Americans that want illegal immigration stopped.

    RGF wrote: YOU HAVEN’T READ ANYTHING I’VE SAID HAVE YOU?
    I have, even though it is a waste of time. But it gives me the opportunity to keep shooting holes in your lame excuses, non-sequiturs, and misplaced compassion.
    RGF wrote: You missed the boat enitirely, d.a.n.
    Not true. I simply don’t agree with your misplaced compassion; the title of this thread.
    RGF wrote: This is pointless. Your stubborn re-assurtions, without any thought to what am talking about, is the weakest argument I have ever seen.
    I list facts, data, polls, laws, and articles. You just list your opinion. The majority of Americans want illegal immigration stopped now, and they are finally taking steps to stop it.
    RGF wrote: You don’t seem willing to even consider the whole picture.
    Yes I do. Disagreeing with your pro-immigration motivations does not equate to “willing to even consider the whole picture”.
    RGF wrote: You are actually defeating your own argument as a result.
    Not true. Most Americans agree with me. And rightfully so. The are tired of illegal aliens coming here, stealing from our public services, murdering 3.6 to 26 people per day, taking jobs, and arrogantly demanding rights they don’t deserve.
    RGF wrote: d.a.n. An indulged child is not a child raised with compassion.
    OK. If you say so. I guess you would know. What that has to do with illegal immigration is a mystery.
    RGF wrote: It is you who lack compassion for Americans.
    Really? It is you that wrote …
    RGF wrote: They [Minutemen] have even already demonstrated the utter folly of those silly imbeciles, the “minutemen,” by building a BERM on the Mexican side of the fence those fools [Minutemen] built!
    RGF wrote: “I would bet my money that one Mexican could outwork any TEN Americans”.
    RGF wrote: The minutemen are allowing themselves to be fooled. They are politcally agitating on an issue that will never be changed through politics or government. They are also fooled because they are blinded as to the whole story. So are you, it seems.
    RGF wrote: It is I who believe we should take responsibility for our actions.
    Like granting amnesty to illegal aliens?

    RGF,

    • Where is the compassion for U.S. citizens that go without healthcare and access to ERs because ERs and hospitals are over-flowing with illegal aliens (of which many don’t pay)? Is this fair to U.S. tax payers?

    • Where is the compassion for the truly needy U.S. citizens that can not get help because of limited resources, because 32% of illegal aliens receive welfare ?

    • Where is the compassion for the illegal aliens being lured here for sub-minimum wage jobs, creating an under-paid, under-class (practically slavery) ?

    • Where is the outrage of the greedy employers of illegal aliens ?

    • Where is the compassion for the U.S. victims and survivors of crimes perpetrated by illegal aliens (29% of all incarcerated in federal prisons are illegal aliens), and the crime rates are rising.

    • Where is the compassion for U.S. Americans who’s lives have been changed forever by illegal aliens that spread disease ? One illegal alien in Santa Barbara, California infected 56 other people with tuberculosis as reported on April 24, 2004, by the Santa Barbara Press-News, “Anatomy of an Outbreak”. Because illegal alien migration into the USA continues unabated for the past 20 years, we now have 16,000 new cases of incurable MDR tuberculosis in the past five years. We suffer 7,000 new cases of leprosy. We tolerate 100,000 new cases of hepatitis “A” in our society. Chagas Disease, which affects 14 million South Americans and kills 50,000 annually, streams across our borders as unchecked thousands of them enter our society. If your child goes to public school, they could be exposed, as thousands already have been.

    • Where is the compassion for the people murdered every day by an illegal alien (Source: GAO-05-646R based on study group of 55,322 illegal aliens over a 57 year period)

    • Where is the compassion for all of the people that do not want to see a repeat of 11-Sep-2001, which was perpetrated by several illegal aliens ?

    • In view of all that above, how could anyone use the excuse that the U.S. would crumble (economically) without cheap labor? Even if it were true (which it isn’t), does that justify a sub-minimum-wage under-class ? The economy would not crumble, as much as some want to believe it, since the majority of those done by illegal aliens are low-wage, low-skill jobs, and would not generate much in tax revenue, even if half those that don’t pay taxes started paying taxes. Even if it were true, does it justify the perpetuation of an under-paid under-class?? Are we all going to be like Senator Linsey Graham (R-SC) who said: “as a golfer, I probably benefit from their [illegal aliens] labor.” ?
      Nevermind that S.C. has the highest rate of violent crime (excluding D.C.) of any state in the U.S. and it is largely due to illegal aliens.

    • Where is the compassion for the U.S. tax payers net losses of over $70 billion per year due to all the numerous problems stemming from illegal aliens?

    • Where is your compasssion for the 2.3 million displaced American workers?

    • Where is the compassion for all of the U.S. policemen murdered by illegal aliens? On 13-Nov-2005, Brian Jackson, a Dallas policeman was shot and killed by an illegal alien, Juan Lizcano. Lizcano had become drunk and went to the home of his ex-girfriend to threaten her. As the police pursued Lizcano after he fled the woman’s home, he shot Officer Jackson, who died later in the hospital. Officer Jackson was remembered by his fellow police as someone who loved his job and always went the extra mile. In Denver, Colorado, an illegal deliberately ran over a Denver polceman in a school cross walk “breaking his legs along with severe internal injuries. This is not anectdotal. This tragedy has occurred over and over in many cities across the U.S. Those are crimes that should have never happened.

    THE SOLUTION to ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 14, 2007 4:39 PM
    Comment #232854

    d.a.n.

    I’ve already won, you just won’t read it.

    Your facts are irrelevent under the circumstances and your logic…isn’t logical.


    THBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB!

    Posted by: RGF at September 14, 2007 5:33 PM
    Comment #232856
    RGF wrote: d.a.n. I’ve already won, you just won’t read it.
    Won what? You haven’t written anything that makes sense yet. Funny, any facts you don’t agree are illogical?
    RGF wrote: Your facts are irrelevent under the circumstances and your logic…isn’t logical.
    I didn’t see you disproving any of the facts. Instead, you resorted to name calling.
    RGF wrote: THBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB!
    What’s that stand for? Or is it just more nonsensical BaBBling ?

    The title of this thread applies perfectly to you.

    Worse actually, as revealed by what you wrote above …

    RGF wrote:
    They [Minutemen] have even already demonstrated the utter folly of those silly imbeciles, the “minutemen,” by building a BERM on the Mexican side of the fence those fools [Minutemen] built!

    RGF wrote:
    “I would bet my money that one Mexican could outwork any TEN Americans”.

    RGF wrote:
    The minutemen are allowing themselves to be fooled. They are politcally agitating on an issue that will never be changed through politics or government. They are also fooled because they are blinded as to the whole story. So are you, it seems.

    Hmmmmmm … sounds like someone who is not only pro-immigration (illegal or not), but doesn’t think much of Americans that want illegal immigration stopped and have the right to protect their borders. That’s not just misplaced compassion. It borders on treason. But then, I’m assuming you are an American. For all I know, you may be an illegal alien yourself? That would explain a lot.

    Read this and this and you might learn something.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 14, 2007 6:11 PM
    Comment #232861

    d.a.n.,

    Now I see the tip of the problem we are having. Yo uhave difficulty reading for comprehension in context@!

    It is the Mexicans, not the minutemen, who have demonstrated the folly of the wall by building a berm…not the minutemen.

    If you would have that reading dis-order addressed, perhaps we could have a meaningful discussion.

    Posted by: RGF at September 14, 2007 6:47 PM
    Comment #232863

    d.a.n.

    You know, you can’t make hey with that comment of mine about one Mexican outworking ten Americans…not only is it an obvious exageration for effect, but it is, itself, irrelevent to the points I was making.

    IF you actually want to have a meaningful discussion on this, start by addressing the moral and legal implications of how we arrived at this point in history with respect the current border problems.

    Address the fact that WE manipulated Mexico (Along with much of the rest of Latin America as well) into the economic situation it is in now.

    Address the fact that it is American corporate campaign donors that are invested in maintaining the status-quo.

    Address the issue of the maquiladoras and the rather hideous human rights abuses they carry out every day for the sake of the interests of their (the maquiladoras) American corporate owners.

    Address the fact that the majority of the illegal, I prefer to call them undocumented, are in varying stages of trying to achieve citizenship and to boot them out in the middle of that would, in many cases, be a denial of due process.

    Address the issue that extra enforcement, wall building (even if such a wall could anything other than cows out) would only increase the problem by increasing the disparity…and that is assuming it worked as you, yourself hope and assert that it would!

    You ARE missing the point, d.a.n.

    Try as I might, I just can’t get through that hard head of yours to help you to see. I respect your thoughts, contributions and insight on so many onther points. Why are you so unwilling to even consider the whole story of this one?

    Posted by: RGF at September 14, 2007 7:00 PM
    Comment #232865
    RGF wrote: RGF wrote: They [illegal aliens] have even already demonstrated the utter folly of those silly imbeciles, the “minutemen,” by building a BERM on the Mexican side of the fence those fools [Minutemen] built!
    RGF wrote: It is the Mexicans, not the minutemen, who have demonstrated the folly of the wall by building a berm…not the minutemen.
    I knew that. I mistakenly put [Minutemen] where it should have said [illegal aliens].

    Is that it? Is that all you’ve got?

    Care to refute any of the facts here?

    RGF wrote: If you would have that reading dis-order addressed, perhaps we could have a meaningful discussion.
    How stereotypical. You can’t address any issues or refute any facts, so you resort to making a big deal about a minor mistake (e.g. mistakenly writing [Minutemen] instead of [illegal aliens]).

    Who don’t you come over here to this new thread about illegal immigration and continue to demonstrate the same pro-immigration motivations you did here.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 14, 2007 7:07 PM
    Comment #232978

    d.a.n.

    I will not waste my time refuting your facts since they are irrelevent under the circumstances! Some of them I have already refuted in the past but even those refutations are irrelevent. They miss the point.

    READ

    Posted by: RGF at September 15, 2007 12:26 PM
    Comment #232982
    RGF wrote: d.a.n. I will not waste my time refuting your facts since they are irrelevent under the circumstances!
    Of course you won’t. Because you can’t.
    RGF wrote: Some of them I have already refuted in the past but even those refutations are irrelevent. They miss the point.
    Not true. Where?

    Please show us. What’s to READ? All you’ve provided is opinion. No facts. No data. No reports. Just rhetoric, and an obvious pro-immigration motivation.

    RGF wrote: d.a.n. You know, you can’t make hey with that comment of mine about one Mexican outworking ten Americans…not only is it an obvious exageration for effect, but it is, itself, irrelevent to the points I was making.
    Not true. It shows your dislike (perhaps hatred) of Americans and sympathy for illegal aliens.
    RGF wrote: IF you actually want to have a meaningful discussion on this, start by addressing the moral and legal implications of how we arrived at this point in history with respect the current border problems.
    OK. What is immoral is the trespass of our borders, abuse of our ERs, hospitals, highways, schools, law enforcement, and voting systems (e.g. voter fraud). So you’re back to the Irredentism exuse (of the many other lame excuses)? Irredentism: MYTH: We have no right to secure U.S. borders, because U.S. borders are illegitimate to start with. The U.S. really belongs to the Indians and other neighboring nations, to start with. TRUTH: This is another lame argument. If you want to use that logic, we should all give back all of our nations to the original inhabitants, or their ancestors. This lame argument is just one of many that demonstrate how weak all of the pro-illegal alien arguments really are. Here is a revealing comment from another thread …
    where i live in southern cal. there is no checking of ID at the polls. they ask for your name and look it up on a list, then give you a ballot. i’ve been voting absentee recently and all i did was fill out a form sign it, and they mail them to me. i live just south of the city of santa ana, and it is @ by my estimates 80 ot 90% non english speakers. make no mistake about it they are voting in numbers that would boggle you r mind. all you have to do is look at the make up of the state legislature, and the local city gov’ts, and it becomes quite evident. it’s to easy to vote illegaly. Posted by: dbs at September 15, 2007 12:22 PM
    RGF wrote: Address the fact that WE manipulated Mexico (Along with much of the rest of Latin America as well) into the economic situation it is in now.
    OK. Not true. If anyone is being manipulated now, it is the U.S. Not just manipulated, but abused. Not to mention 3.6 to 26 homicides per day in the U.S. by illegal aliens.
    RGF wrote: Address the fact that it is American corporate campaign donors that are invested in maintaining the status-quo.
    True. And that is wrong. They are despicable. They pit Americans and illegal aliens against each other. And that is why I want all (if not all) irresponsible, FOR-SALE, bought-and-paid-for politicians voted out of office. The greedy employers should be prosecuted. Just press Ctrl-F and search on the word greedy above. I noted those greedy corporations and corrupt politicians above over a dozen times. Yet you tell me to “READ”. Perhaps you should practice what you preach?
    RGF wrote: Address the issue of the maquiladoras and the rather hideous human rights abuses they carry out every day for the sake of the interests of their (the maquiladoras) American corporate owners.
    OK. Read previous response above. Now I’ll add to it. The Mexican, Chinese, Asian, Eastern Indian, and other nations’ governments and corporations are in-league. There is rampant greed, corpocrisy, corporatism, and many manifestations of greed. Still, that does not justify breaking other laws and trespassing U.S. borders, and abusing the services and benefits meant for American citizens. Alsom most Americans do not condone this greed. And they are getting more angry about it every day, and hopefully, they will stop stupidly rewarding corrupt politicians with 90% to 95% re-election. Otherwise, the American voters will get what they deserve, and I too will have no sympathy for them either. I’ve already stated this above too, yet you fail to acknowledge it and ask this same question again, despite it has already been answered. Yet you tell me to “READ”. Perhaps you should practice what you preach?
    RGF wrote: Address the fact that the majority of the illegal, I prefer to call them undocumented, are in varying stages of trying to achieve citizenship and to boot them out in the middle of that would, in many cases, be a denial of due process.
    Tough. We can’t let everyone come here. It’s that simple. And I especially do not want to reward illegal trespassers with amnesty. Those that want to immigrate should leave and get in line behind those already there. Again, I’ve already also addressed this question above. Yet you tell me to “READ”. Perhaps you should practice what you preach?
    RGF wrote: Address the issue that extra enforcement, wall building (even if such a wall could anything other than cows out) would only increase the problem by increasing the disparity…and that is assuming it worked as you, yourself hope and assert that it would!
    I have already answered this question too in great detail; with costs, numbers, the annual savings it would create, and the specifics of the barriers, etc, etc., etc.. First of all, it is not a wall. It is a fence, cameras, technology, and 153,000 (three shifts of 51,000) border patrol positioned every 621 feet. That will protect our borders from illegal aliens and terrorists too (which have already been reported to have crossed our sothern border). Yet you tell me to “READ”. Perhaps you should practice what you preach?
    RGF wrote: You ARE missing the point, d.a.n.
    Not true. I have addressed all of your pro-immigration points in great detail, and refuted each and every one. Most Americans agree with me. I only hope those Americans aren’t so lazy that they will continue to blindly pull the party-lever and reward the very same corrupt incumbent politicians that are despicably pitting American citizens and illegal aliens against each other.
    RGF wrote: Try as I might, I just can’t get through that hard head of yours to help you to see.
    Name calling is a indication of one who is frustrated with the weakness of their own lame arguments.

    And your arguments are lame.
    Each one has been thoroughly addressed.
    Communication is not the problem.
    The problem is difference of opinion on each issue.
    You are clearly a immigration proponent.
    You clearly have more compassion for illegal aliens than American citizens.
    You show your disgust for the minutemen and American citizens with the following comments:

    RGF wrote:
    They [illegal aliens] have even already demonstrated the utter folly of those silly imbeciles, the “minutemen,” by building a BERM on the Mexican side of the fence those fools [Minutemen] built!

    RGF wrote:
    “I would bet my money that one Mexican could outwork any TEN Americans”.

    RGF wrote:
    The minutemen are allowing themselves to be fooled. They are politcally agitating on an issue that will never be changed through politics or government. They are also fooled because they are blinded as to the whole story. So are you, it seems.

    RGF, Are you an American? If not, it would explain a lot. If not, then your disgust of the Minutemen and Americans is very unAmerican.

    RGF wrote: I respect your thoughts, contributions and insight on so many onther points.
    I doubt that. You certainly don’t show it now with name calling (e.g. hard headed, stubborn, etc.).

    Your comments do not reflect that. Not now nor in the past. And I can not say the same for your thoughts.
    You tried to use racism (asking me what Indian nation I come from).
    You tried to use irredentism?
    You tried to use misplaced compassion?
    You show disgust and distrespect for the Minutemen and Americans.
    I find your comments disgusting, racist, pro-immigration, and disrespectful of Americans.

    RGF wrote: Why are you so unwilling to even consider the whole story of this one?
    I have. Yet you tell me to “READ”. Perhaps you should practice what you preach?

    The only strong and valid point you have made is about the corruption of corporations and government.

    If the American voters continue to blindly reward corrupt, FOR-SALE politicians (in league with corporations) with constant re-election, then Americans will get what they deserve.

    And I too will have no sympathy for those Americans either. But there is growing evidence that millions of voters are getting very angry about illegal immigration. They are starting to understand that corporations (the puppeteers) and their puppets (politicians) are selling them out and despicably pitting American citizens and illegal aliens against each other. If voters keep rewarding them with re-election, then Americans will get exactly what they deserve. Americans are already starting to feel the consequences of so many manifestations of unchecked greed.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 15, 2007 1:18 PM
    Comment #232994

    d.a.n.

    We’ve already ascertained that I have at least as much (or more) claim to being “American” as you do. …by that I mean native blood. but that is utterly meaningless anyway. Neither of us qualify to enjoy tribal rights and even that doesn’t matter.

    Another aspect of what it means to be American is that we are a nation of Immigrants. Immigrants who came here with the intention of becoming American and living the American DREAM …and who, ultimately, made this country what it is.

    In that sense, the minutemen are COMPLETELY UNAMERICAN.

    You still fail to acknowledge our RESPONSIBILITY AS AMERICANS to address the injuries that have resulted from actions taken by our country…such as the Bucarelli agreement, the coups we have backed in Central and South America as well as Mexico - Victoriano Huerta, for example. etc. etc.

    You still have not responded to the human rights abuses associated with the Maquiladors, owned in large part by American interests, that are contributing to increased despair and even poverty because of their inhuman practices …all under the thinly veiled disguise of bringing industry south of the border!

    You shallowly make the assumption that the entire issue is encompassed in enforcement and border security. That is not even the tip of the ice berg!

    If the present laws get enforced, if new and stronger laws are made, if the wall gets built and even if it works …
    IT WILL ALL BE MEANIGLESS AND A WASTE OF MONEY

    The war on drugs began with just such notions. Notions of increasing enforcement efforts and tightenting up the laws. What did we get for all that expenditure? …MORE DRUG TRAFFIC!!!
    Simple really. The profit margin increased and drug traffickers were willing to take greater and greater risks to get their shipments here.

    Well…immigration is the same.
    If all you do is tighten down the border and you never address the disparity in standards of living between our two countries…You just increase those disparities until the pressure cooker finds a leak. Once it finds a leak, and assuming that such things as walls or enforcement will have any effect at all, the newly increased disparity arising from those measures will only result in even greater numbers of poor Mexican laborers wanting to come over here and become Americans…Further, their desire to get here will be greater and will induce them to take greater risks themselves. We will end up with greater numbers of them dead in our deserts and border areas, as well.

    Now -
    Add to the poiniency of THAT TRUTH the fact that we, as Americans, are actually responsible for having put the Mexicans in this situation in the first place and you begin to see this whole issue in a new light. WE manipulated their economy to our advantage. WE forced coup-governments on them to achieve our goals. WE rammed the Bucarelli agreement down their throats by means of one of those coups. WE spun off the American owned maquiladoras that are increasing the number of poor and uneducated children along the border region who’s only hope is either to get caught up in drug-trafficking criminal gangs or find a way here —- or both. Ask me how the maquuiladoras are doing that and it will shock the hell out of you. WE Rammed Nafta down their throats and then, reprehensibly, went about pretending that Nafta was helpinbg Mexico and hurting the U.S.!!!
    The reality will, again, shock you.

    Groups like the minutemen are NOT patriots at all. The minutemen, apparently, are just a bunch of lazy irresponsible mother f***kers who don’t want America to own up to its responsibilities!

    That is, unless one does as I do and cut them some slack by recognizing they simply don’t know or understand the whole issue.

    But there is HOPE. The Mexicans are solving this for themselves and for us. The standard of living in Mexico is rising dramatically.

    Unfortunatly, once Mexico is doing well enough for our reltionship with Mexico to be more like our relationship with Canada,
    we will have a new problem:
    The southern border of Mexico that it shares with Guatamala.

    Posted by: RGF at September 15, 2007 3:00 PM
    Comment #232997

    RGF, Are you an American citizen? That only requires a YES or NO answer.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 15, 2007 3:13 PM
    Comment #233001

    YES.

    …are you?

    Posted by: RGF at September 15, 2007 3:28 PM
    Comment #233019


    RGF wrote:YES.
    …are you?

    Sure fooled me.

    And thus, the title of this thread:

      “Misplaced Compassion”

    RGF wrote:
    Another aspect of what it means to be American is that we are a nation of Immigrants. Immigrants who came here with the intention of becoming American and living the American DREAM …and who, ultimately, made this country what it is.

    Another aspect of what it means to be American is that we are a nation of Immigrants.
    AAaahhhh … the old EXCUSE # 01.
      We are a land of immigrants.

    RGF wrote: In that sense, the minutemen are COMPLETELY UNAMERICAN.
    There you go again … bashin’ Americans.
    RGF wrote: You still fail to acknowledge our RESPONSIBILITY AS AMERICANS to address the injuries that have resulted from actions taken by our country…such as the Bucarelli agreement, the coups we have backed in Central and South America as well as Mexico - Victoriano Huerta, for example. etc. etc.
    What about the injury illegal aliens do here:
    • Stealing services
    • these numerous burdens
    • murdering 3.6 to 26 people in the U.S. per day
    • filling up our prisons (29% of all incarcerated in federal prisons are illegal aliens
    • fraudulently voting in our elections
    • crime
    RGF wrote: You still have not responded to the human rights abuses associated with the Maquiladors, owned in large part by American interests, that are contributing to increased despair and even poverty because of their inhuman practices …all under the thinly veiled disguise of bringing industry south of the border!
    Did too.

    I never condoned what greedy politicians (puppets) and their greedy puppeteers (owners of corporations) do. Can’t you read. I’ve stated this over and over. It does not justify trespassing our borders.

    RGF wrote: You shallowly make the assumption that the entire issue is encompassed in enforcement and border security. That is not even the tip of the ice berg!
    Yes, economic issues are a problem.

    Still, illegal aliens need to return where they came from and fix their own crappy governments.
    We’ve got enough problems here without them coming here and taking advantage of our society, services, schools, ERs, healthcare, voting, etc.

    RGF wrote: If the present laws get enforced, if new and stronger laws are made, if the wall gets built and even if it works … IT WILL ALL BE MEANIGLESS AND A WASTE OF MONEY
    Not at all.

    Again, it’s not a wall. It’s a barrier; a fence, surveillance, and 153,000 border patrol (three shifts of 51,000 every 621 feet).
    Yeah, like you are really concerned about cost.
    What a laugh.
    This is all too easy shootin’ holes in your excuses.

    RGF wrote: The war on drugs began with just such notions. Notions of increasing enforcement efforts and tightenting up the laws. What did we get for all that expenditure? …MORE DRUG TRAFFIC!!! Simple really. The profit margin increased and drug traffickers were willing to take greater and greater risks to get their shipments here.
    Illegal aliens pushin’ drugs to children should be stopped. All the more reason for border security and prosecuting greedy illegal employers of illegal aliens. In fact, they should start confiscating the assets of these illegal employers (like those of drug dealers) to finance the enforcement of the existing laws.
    RGF wrote: Now - Add to the poiniency of THAT TRUTH the fact that we, as Americans, are actually responsible for having put the Mexicans in this situation in the first place and you begin to see this whole issue in a new light.
    False. Most Americans oppose illegal immigration.

    It is now the duty of voters to hold greedy, bought-and-paid-for politicians accountable. Vote their sorry, greedy fat asses out of office.

    RGF wrote: WE manipulated their economy to our advantage. WE forced coup-governments on them to achieve our goals. WE rammed the Bucarelli agreement down their throats by means of one of those coups. WE spun off the American owned maquiladoras that are increasing the number of poor and uneducated children along the border region who’s only hope is either to get caught up in drug-trafficking criminal gangs or find a way here —- or both. Ask me how the maquuiladoras are doing that and it will shock the hell out of you. WE Rammed Nafta down their throats and then, reprehensibly, went about pretending that Nafta was helpinbg Mexico and hurting the U.S.!!!
    What’s this WE crap.

    I had nothing to do with it. Greedy people in corporations and government did it. Voters (hopefully) will correct it. At any rate, it does not justify trespassing our borders. In Mexico, if you are an illegal alien, you get jail; not just deported.

    RGF wrote: The reality will, again, shock you.
    Nonsense. Your comments are quite revealing.
    RGF wrote: Groups like the minutemen are NOT patriots at all. The minutemen, apparently, are just a bunch of lazy irresponsible mother f***kers who don’t want America to own up to its responsibilities!
    We know. You hate Americans that want to protect their own sovereignty.

    Again, you should re-read the title of this thread: “Misplaced Compassion”

    RGF wrote: That is, unless one does as I do and cut them some slack by recognizing they simply don’t know or understand the whole issue.
    Right. You call them imbeciles. Way to go. You should be real proud of yourself.
    RGF wrote: But there is HOPE. The Mexicans are solving this for themselves and for us. The standard of living in Mexico is rising dramatically.
    Good. As a result of stealing from us.

    It’s coming to an end.
    Visit ALIPAC.US and NumbersUSA.com if you haven’t already.

    RGF wrote: Unfortunatly, once Mexico is doing well enough for our reltionship with Mexico to be more like our relationship with Canada, we will have a new problem: The southern border of Mexico that it shares with Guatamala.
    Those sound like threats.

    Your pro-immigration motives are all too obvious.
    Fortunately, Americans are catching on to your ilk.

    The SOLUTION

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 15, 2007 6:42 PM
    Comment #233171

    d.a.n.

    Again, your “solution” is anything but…
    You evidence is irrelevent under the circumstances…
    …and you are missing the point.

    I put it to you, d.a.n., that sticking your head in the sand on this issue and ignoring the entirety of all things concerning and involving all aspects of this issue is:

    Irresposible and unpatriotic.

    I prefer to be a part of a more mature and clearer, more complete solution to the problems we face.

    Posted by: RGF at September 17, 2007 12:05 PM
    Comment #233192

    d.a.n.

    I’m tired of the flame-wars. Unless you are willing to actualy consider this issue in entirety and have a real dialogue, just go play with it outside.

    If you want to wast your tax-dollars on a rediculous wall or increased enforcement that is guaranteed to only make things worse in the end, so be it. I wish I could get you to stop advocating for the wasting of my tax-dollars, butI can’t make you listen to reason if you don’t want to.

    You obviously have a lot of emotional investment in what you are advocating. More, I’d like to point out, than in any real solution —- or you would be more open to considering the whole picture.

    Solving problems is not about false pride. It’s about considering all aspects until the right solution, the most complete solution is achieved.

    Posted by: RGF at September 17, 2007 1:37 PM
    Comment #233257
    RGF wrote:d.a.n. I’m tired of the flame-wars.
    I have not flamed you.
    RGF wrote:d.a.n. Unless you are willing to actualy consider this issue in entirety and have a real dialogue, just go play with it outside.
    RGF, I have considered this entire subject very carefully for many years. I simply do not agree with most of your arguments. If you want to know my positions, see my web-page on illegal immigration.
    RGF wrote: You obviously have a lot of emotional investment in what you are advocating. More, I’d like to point out, than in any real solution —- or you would be more open to considering the whole picture.
    Not true. I have considered the whole picture at great length. Here is my solution, which I have presented many times.
    RGF wrote:d.a.n, Solving problems is not about false pride.
    I agree.
    RGF wrote:d.a.n, If you want to wast your tax-dollars on a rediculous wall or increased enforcement that is guaranteed to only make things worse in the end, so be it. I wish I could get you to stop advocating for the wasting of my tax-dollars, butI can’t make you listen to reason if you don’t want to.
    False. I have shown how enforcing existing laws and border security will actually save American tax payers $60 Billion (or more) annually, since illegal immigration costs American tax payers $70 Billion (and possibly as high as $350 Billion) per year in net losses, and border security will cost $10 Billion per year.

    Thus, savings to American Tax Payers = $70 Billion - $10 Billion = $60 Billion in savings

    RGF wrote:
    I put it to you, d.a.n., that sticking your head in the sand on this issue and ignoring the entirety of all things concerning and involving all aspects of this issue is: Irresposible and unpatriotic.
    I have no “Misplaced Compassion” or blind loyalties. Name-calling (e.g. calling others unpatriotic) is very common by people that lack valid and substantive arguments. It is indicative of their own frustration with the weakness of their own arguments presented. Especially when it lacks examples, quotes, and other evidence to substantiate the name-calling.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 17, 2007 9:23 PM
    Comment #233295

    d.a.n.

    You have got to be kidding!

    How can you muster up the gall to accuse me of not having a valid and substantive argument when you won’t even read and consider it?

    This is a foolish waste of time and effort.
    Go play with it out side, d.a.n.

    Posted by: RGF at September 18, 2007 11:27 AM
    Comment #233299

    d.a.n.

    You have shown nothing because you refuse to consider the whole picture. Your overly-emtioanlly invested argument has no credibility because you have lost sight of reality.

    I have made clear why your wall proposition is a wastful boondoggle-pork project that will accomplish only the lining of the pockets of the contractor who signs up to build the great folly.
    …AND THAT’S EVEN ASSUMING IT WORKS EXACTLY AS YOU HOPE IT WILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    YOU JUST KEEP IGNORING REALITY

    You aren’t about solutions, d.a.n.
    You appear to be about false pride and the emotional investment you have made in this preposterous argument.

    I’ll fight tooth and nail to keep you and those you help to sell this folly to from wasting MY/em> tax dollars!

    Now, what is going to take to get into a real dialogue? If you would just read the above posting I have done, we might get somewhere. Otherwise, those reading this are not likely to fail to see your lack of substantive response. offering the same old defeated evidence over and over is not dialogue. It’s a waste of time and effort.

    Posted by: RGF at September 18, 2007 11:37 AM
    Comment #233313

    RGF, get some education.
    Start here.
    Then proceed to here, and here.

    Don’t take my word for it.
    Read what millions of other are saying.
    Look at the comments at ALIPAC.US (with 55 million page views).

    Thank you for all of the name calling and empty rhetoric. It won’t change the facts. All of the name calling and empty rhetoric is simply a substitute for the lack of a substantive argument, facts, reason, and logic. It’s always a dead give away. Please continue. It is encouraging. It strengthens my arguments, facts, and reasoning.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 18, 2007 1:57 PM
    Comment #233319

    d.a.n.

    I have seen these sites over and over. Just to be thorough I read them again, looking for new information, just now, from your links.

    THEY ARE IRRELEVENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Most eggragiously, they make a number of assumptions that are utterly false.

    Perhaps the worst of these is the one that throws off all the data on these sites completely:

    The undocumented are PAYING TAXES!

    YES. That’s right. They do so because it helps them to avoid claims of moral problems with their efforts to become U.S. Citizens!

    I was part of group of volunteers who went down to the border areas of Texas to help file returns for undocumented aliens. From the first of the years through tax day we had literally hundrreds lining up to file returns with us. Further, we were aware of similar groups doing the same thing all over the country.

    The problem with sites such as these, is that make assumptions they cannot back up! Such as: “If they are illegal, they must not be paying taxes or even have social security numbers.” This is ABSOUTELY WRONG, d.a.n.

    But regardless,
    I have given chapter and verse for why all the evidence you stubbornly re-iterate is utterly irrelevent anyway.

    IF you and/or the minute get EVERYTHING you want:
    Increased enforcement,
    The Wall,
    Camaras,
    tighter laws,
    etc. etc.,

    YOU WILL NECESSARILY ONLY MAKE THE PROBLEM WORSE AND HAMSTRING THE SOLUTION THAT IS ALREADY UNDERWAY NATURALLY!!!!!!!!!

    It is because you are NOT reading my posts that you continue to defeat your own argument by this stubborn, repetitive, banging-your-head-against-the-wall reiteration of irrelevent evidence.

    Scroll up my previous comments andREAD.

    Posted by: RGF at September 18, 2007 2:59 PM
    Comment #233348
    RGF wrote: d.a.n. The undocumented are PAYING TAXES!
    Only half of all illegal aliens pay income taxes.

    And it still does not offset the total net losses to American tax payers.
    Feel free to provide any proof you have to disprove it.
    And ever after that is taken into account, along with the value of their labor, they are still costing American taxpayer net losses of $70 Billion to $338 Billion per year.

    RGF wrote: YES. That’s right. They do so because it helps them to avoid claims of moral problems with their efforts to become U.S. Citizens!
    Ha ha. Yeah right.
    RGF wrote: I was part of group of volunteers who went down to the border areas of Texas to help file returns for undocumented aliens. From the first of the years through tax day we had literally hundrreds lining up to file returns with us. Further, we were aware of similar groups doing the same thing all over the country.
    Well, then you are helping illegal aliens to break our laws.

    Hence, the title of this entire thread. You should carefully re-read Jacks article: “Misplaced Compassion”

    RGF wrote: The problem with sites such as these, is that make assumptions they cannot back up! Such as: “If they are illegal, they must not be paying taxes or even have social security numbers.” This is ABSOUTELY WRONG, d.a.n.
    You didn’t read it very thoroughly.

    It acknowledges about half do pay some income taxes (using fraudulent Social Security numbers).
    All the taxes paid in still do not offset the net losses to American tax payers of $70 Billion to $338 Billion per year.

    RGF wrote: But regardless, I have given chapter and verse for why all the evidence you stubbornly re-iterate is utterly irrelevent anyway.
    Well, you wouldn’t want be to back down from the truth would you?
    RGF wrote: IF you and/or the minute get EVERYTHING you want: Increased enforcement, The Wall, Camaras, tighter laws, etc. etc., YOU WILL NECESSARILY ONLY MAKE THE PROBLEM WORSE AND HAMSTRING THE SOLUTION THAT IS ALREADY UNDERWAY NATURALLY!!!!!!!!!
    Not true. Border Security and enforcement of existing laws will save American tax payers at least $60 Billion per year.
    RGF wrote: It is because you are NOT reading my posts that you continue to defeat your own argument by this stubborn, repetitive, banging-your-head-against-the-wall reiteration of irrelevent evidence.
    I read your comments.

    Unfortunately, they lack facts, the truth, and resort to angry comments and name-calling, which is a dead give-away of a lame arguments. The frustration exhibiting in your comments is because your arguments lack credibility. If you could disprove the facts, you would. But that is unlikely. Instead, I am called names (not to mention a very nasty thing you called the Minutemen)

    RGF wrote: d.a.n. Good grief you’re stubborn.

    RGF wrote: You missed the boat enitirely, d.a.n.

    RGF wrote: It is you who lack compassion for Americans.

    RGF wrote: This is pointless. Your stubborn re-assurtions, without any thought to what am talking about, blah, blah, blah …

    RGF wrote: I would bet my money that one Mexican could outwork any TEN Americans.

    RGF wrote: The minutemen are allowing themselves to be fooled.

    RGF wrote: THBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB!

    RGF wrote: d.a.n. I’ve already won, you just won’t read it.

    RGF wrote: Your facts are irrelevent under the circumstances and your logic…isn’t logical.

    RGF wrote: You ARE missing the point, d.a.n.

    RGF wrote: Try as I might, I just can’t get through that hard head of yours to help you to see.

    RGF wrote: the minutemen are COMPLETELY UNAMERICAN.

    RGF wrote: Groups like the minutemen are NOT patriots at all.

    RGF wrote: d.a.n, Solving problems is not about false pride.

    RGF wrote: d.a.n. You have got to be kidding!

    RGF wrote: YOU JUST KEEP IGNORING REALITY

    RGF wrote: The minutemen, apparently, are just a bunch of lazy irresponsible mother f***kers who don’t want America to own up to its responsibilities!

    Fascinating. Could you elaborate more why you think so poorly of the Minutemen?

    Perhaps you should read this.

    Also, please feel free to disprove any of the thousands of facts you run across. We want to be accurate.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 18, 2007 7:30 PM
    Comment #233442

    d.a.n.

    I have already proven, ad nausium, how irrelevent your entire argument is.

    Don’t try to rope me into arguing moot points just because you refuse to actually
    READ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Posted by: RGF at September 19, 2007 11:40 AM
    Comment #233444

    You are woefully WRONG.

    http://www.nmvoices.org/attachments/immigrant_tax_report.pdf

    Posted by: RGF at September 19, 2007 11:44 AM
    Comment #233458
    RGF wrote:d.a.n. I have already proven, ad nausium, how irrelevent your entire argument is… . You are woefully WRONG.
    Feel free anytime to try and disprove the facts. If you could, you would have already.

    The lonely article you refer to does not address all issues. It fails to point out that only about half of all illegal aliens pay income taxes. It fails to point out the costs of dozens of things. Include everything (instead of cleverly omitting so many things), and it is clear that illegal aliens are a burden costing American tax payers over $70 Billion annually in net losses.

    RGF, The article you provided is clearly biased, and even it shows it to be a wash based on their numbers.

    Unfortunately, that study (which is far outnumbered by many more credible sources and organizations to the contrary) failed miserably to include the cost many other things producing a $70 billion to $338 Billion in net losses to American tax payers:

    • crime

    • burden on education systems;

    • burden on healthcare systems;

    • burden on hospital systems; 84 hospitals closed/closing in California;

    • burden on welfare systems; over 32% of illegal aliens collect welfare

    • burden on Medicaid system;

    • burden on border patrol systems; ever increasing numbers are needed;

    • burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;

    • burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;

    • burden on prison systems; 29% of state and federal prisoners (Sep-2004) are illegal aliens;

    • 2.3 million displaced American workers; partly because half of all illegal aliens that don’t pay taxes, and greedy employers that don’t pay unemployment taxes, Social Security, Medicare taxes, etc.;

    • voter fraud; burden on voting systems;

    That Fiscal Project Project article failed miserably to address all of those issues above.
    Instead, it cleverly cherry picked the data and ignored all the other issues.
    It has no credibility. For every article like that, I can show you 100 more to refute it from much more credible sources and organizations.
    Voters are starting to wise up to it too.
    That’s why the SHAMNESTY BILL was defeated.
    Voters are starting to wise up perhaps.
    That may also be why Congress has a dismal 18% approval rating.
    I certainly hope it translates into some more sell-out incumbent politicians getting booted from office.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 19, 2007 1:22 PM
    Comment #233466

    d.a.n.


    I DON’T HAVE TO DISPROVE YOUR FACTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    THEY ARE IRRELEVENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    YOU ARE ONLY ARGUING INTO THIN AIR, NOT WITH THE ISSUE AT HAND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I have told you and told you why the immigration issue is what it is.

    You don’t care. You just throw more irrelevent nonesonse at me.

    Why can’t you address the issue, not the one in your head, but the information I posted!

    d.a.n.,
    WE created the monster.
    Why do feel like we should duck our responsibility in this?

    WE continue to build the monster.
    Again, why is this not important to you?

    ALL YOUR PROPOSALS, i.e enforcement increases, the wall, tighter laws etc. will necessarily only make the problenm worse because they don’t address the underlying causes of the problem.

    Why is this hard for you to understand, d.a.n.???

    Again, YOUR FACTS AND ALL YOUR EVIDENCE ARE COMPLETELY IRRELEVENT BECAUSE YOU DON’T ADDRESS THE ROOT CAUSES OF THE PROBLEM!!!!!!!!!!!

    This discussion is NOT a discussion. You are too proud of your argument to see how hopelessly flawed it is.

    Please, d.a.n., let’s not continue this unless it can actually be a dialogue. This is getting tiresome.

    Posted by: RGF at September 19, 2007 2:31 PM
    Comment #233485
    RGF wrote: This discussion is NOT a discussion. You are too proud of your argument to see how hopelessly flawed it is. Please, d.a.n., let’s not continue this unless it can actually be a dialogue. This is getting tiresome.

    RGF, Perhaps the obvious frustration exhibited above is because of a such a lame argument to start with?

    Here’s some recommended reading to support the net losses and costs to tax payers caused by illegal immigraiton:

    Don’t go away with hard feelings.
    Please feel free (anytime) to offer evidence to disprove those facts.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 19, 2007 3:56 PM
    Comment #233524

    I will just have to trust the more objective readers of these posts to see the reality.

    I can’t get through to you.

    I am telling you oranges and you are screaming apples.

    Posted by: RGF at September 19, 2007 6:53 PM
    Comment #233548

    RGF,

    It’s not apples and oranges.

    It’s illegal immigration, and U.S. Taxpayers (especially in border states) are starting to notice the massive costs to schools, education, ERs, hospitals, welfare, prison costs, border security costs, voting, etc., etc., etc.

    All the rhetorhic in the world will not substitute for the facts. Calling something irrelevant is pointless unless it shows contrary evidence.

    Contact your Congress persons.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 19, 2007 8:55 PM
    Comment #233753

    d.a.n.

    All your facts fail to recognize what the situation will be like assuming all your goals are both achievable and actually work!

    If you never address the ROOT CAUSE, the problem doesn’t go away.

    If you only contribute to building the pressure in the “pressure cooker” that is the economic and political situation in Mexico, you only make the problem worse.

    If you build your wall and it actually WORKS…just the way you want it to, what have you got? A bigger problem is the result as the economic pressure among the impoverished in Mexico begins to GROW again.

    That is why your solution will not work and all your evidence is irrelevent.

    I don’t even have to refute it, d.a.n.; it is a moot point. You are defending a lost argument because you refuse to address the ROOT CAUSE.

    Posted by: RGF at September 21, 2007 1:33 PM
    Comment #233765

    The root cause is greed and laziness on both sides of the border.
    We can’t fix Mexico unless they want it.
    We can’t even fix ourselves.

    Internal enforcment of existing laws and border security would be a good start.
    But that’s not likely to happen.
    So you should be happy to know that you will get what you want.
    3 million, 4 million, 6 million, 9 million, 10 million,…, 100 million immigrants per year (from all over the world).

    American voters could stop it, but too few care, and by the time they do, it will be too late.

    Even when Americans give Congress a low approval rating, they still reward those same politicians with 90% to 95% re-election rates. Mexico is even worse and more corrupt. What ever happens, the two deserve each other.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 21, 2007 2:44 PM
    Comment #233774

    d.a.n.

    You are still missing the point.
    American voters can’t stop it unless they are presented with a solution that addresses the root cause. We would be better off investing the same amount of money proposed to be spent on this boondoggle of wall, in Mexico.

    Your scenario of increasing numbers doesn’t make sense because you are still failing to take into account what happens on the other side of the border. Standards of living are improving in Mexico. As that continues, the flow of Mexican immigrants will wane. The same scenario will, sadly play itself out with respect to the rest of Latin America as well, so you are right in part.

    However, if you fail to consider what the wall or tighter enforcement efforts will do to Mexico, then you are still not addressing the problem.

    Even if we concede the improbable point that your wall and enforcement efforts will have the desired effect, you are still adding to the economic pressures within Mexico which are driving the immigrants North. Ultimately, that will make the problem worse and will increase both the numbers of people and the ferventness of their desire to get here. That will overcome any wall or enforcement efforts just as the profit motive of drug trafficing (which resulted from the very enforcement efforts intended to diminish drug traffic) overcame the war on drugs.

    Posted by: RGF at September 21, 2007 3:22 PM
    Comment #233896

    RGF, I have not missed your point.
    I simply do not agree with it.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 22, 2007 1:22 AM
    Comment #233964

    Ok.

    But, what if your wrong?

    What if you get all these things you want just the way you want them with all the associated expense, time, effort etc.

    …and the problem remains?
    What if this issue becomes a catalyst for electing somebody, or group of people, and the problem remains?

    Will you take this seriously then?

    In five to ten years, if this wall even gets built, that distant voice, in the back of your mind saying, “I told You so,” will be me.

    Posted by: RGF at September 22, 2007 5:28 PM
    Comment #234014

    RGF,

    I understand ALL of your points perfectly,
    have heard ALL counter issues,
    and have stated what I want.

    But what I want isn’t very important, despite the vast majority of Americans that agree with me.

    Why?

    Because that vast majority of Americans will continue to reward and re-elect the same incumbent politicians that refuse to do anything that will reduce profits from cheap labor, or lose votes from an amnesty.

    My prediction is that the politicians will still refuse to do anything, and the voters will continue to reward them for it.

    So, to be honest, they deserve each other.
    Voters have the government they deserve.
    Illegal aliens have what they want.
    You will have what you want.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 22, 2007 11:30 PM
    Comment #234137

    Patience, patience, friend.

    You, too, will have what you want in the only effective means available at present. The only viable and lasting solution to this issue, the only one that gets to the root cause, is already underway.

    The companies that generate the corrupt campaign contributions to support the status quo will get their come-uppance naturally and in due course.

    Besides, have you ever heard of ANY solution to ANY problem that ever worked and that didn’t even address the root cause of the problem? …I sure you haven’t.
    Well, what your solution does is to not only ignore the root cause but it even contributes to the deepening and broadeneing of the root cause.

    If we are both right and nothing ever happens, then we will back into the best possible solution under the current circumstances: The Mexicans helping themselves until the standard of living in Mexico is more commensurate with our own. Then the problem will be how to deal with the same disparity across most of the rest of Latin America, but at least Mexico will act as a buffer for us. In fact, that is already happening now.

    Posted by: RGF at September 24, 2007 11:21 AM
    Comment #234174

    RGF, The belief that Mexico’s standard of living will be raised much by what is going on now is looeny tunes. Americans will do something (probably too late) when it gets painful enough. A Phoenix policeman was murdered yesterday by an illegal alien. Policemen in my area have been murdered by illegal aliens, and so have many people been murdered by illegal aliens. 3.6 to 26 people per day are murdered by illegal aliens.
    Soon, that may soon provide Americans the motivation to secure their borders enforce existing laws. Yes, patience. It may take a while, and something should be done sooner, but Americans will do something eventually when not doing it becomes too painful. The crime alone is becoming a major issue. So much for just lookin’ for a job, eh? Seems to me a lot of ‘em come here for welfare, crime, and pushin’ drugs.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 24, 2007 4:25 PM
    Comment #234177

    d.a.n.

    There is an element of truth to what you say. But it is smaller than you think.

    By in large “they” are looking for jobs and a better way of life. They want what so many other immigrants have come looking for: The American Dream.

    You could point out that there is more poverty among minorities, but is indicative of their value as people our ours?

    What about the way that criminal got there? If you read my earlier posts, you at least understand a part of the responisbility America has for creating and fostering the criminal element along both sides of our borders. It’s not just about the drug market in this country creating the demand, but also about the things we have done to create both poverty and unwanted children so as to have sa captive work-force for the largely American owned or affiliated maquiladoras.

    It simply is the height of bigotry to first watch our companies take advatage of Mexicans on both saides and then even attempt to close the borders to the problem WE CREATED!

    …and if you’re trying to argue that Mexicans are murderers…I’m going to have to call bullshit on that. OUR crime rate is monstrously worse even with all their corruption!
    Plus, the generalization is simply preposterous. We are all human. Desparation and dispair create ample opportunity for crime on both sides.

    I remember some of the rather disgusting things that transpired following 9/11. Two Seiks (an East Indian sect not in any way related to Islam) were murdered following 9/11 by wasp Americans who saw nothing but turbin wearers and acted out of hate and shallowness. Sadly they were killed in separate incidents in separate towns, but they were father and son. I also saw wasp American construction workers return to the site of a Mosque that was built in Plano, TX, and completed just a couple of weeks following 9/11. There attempted to steal from the Mosque they had worked on out of misguided spite. Later, they also beat up an Imam for no other reason than that he was Muslim.

    Don’t talk to me about racial generalizations and crime, d.a.n. Americans are just as stupid and just as criminal as anybody else …and we have less reason to resort to such lunacy considering all our advantages. That dog won’t hunt, d.a.n.

    Posted by: RGF at September 24, 2007 6:05 PM
    Comment #234182
    RGF wrote:Americans are just as stupid and just as criminal as anybody else …and we have less reason to resort to such lunacy considering all our advantages.

    RGF, A GAO report (5645r) study showed that for a study group of 55,532 illegal aliens, they were arrested for almost 700,000 offenses, averaging 13 offenses per illegal alien:

  • Number of illegal aliens in our study population: 55,322.
  • Total number of arrests: 459,614.
  • Total number of criminal offenses: 691,890.

  • Average number of criminal offenses per illegal alien: 13.

  • Median number of criminal offenses per illegal alien: 10.

  • Commited 5992 homicides were from 1947 to 2004.
  • Other disturbing crime statistics:

    • 95% of 1,200 warrants for homicide in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens. 66% of 17,000 fugitive felony warrants are for illegal aliens.

    • John Mullaly a former NYPD homicide detective, states 70% of the drug dealers and other criminals in Manhattan’s Washington Heights are were illegal aliens.

    • According to statistics by the Salt Lake City Police Department (and verified by an independent study), 80% of all drug crimes in the City are committed by illegal aliens. In Salt Lake County, the equivalent number is 50%. that is why Congressman Cannon is on the Immigration Subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee. He is working to insure that interior states, like Utah, are not overlooked in the war on illegal immigration.

    • In 2001, 87% of deportable aliens who received run letters disappeared, a number that was even higher-94 percent-if they were from terror-sponsoring countries.

    • an average of 2,000 illegal aliens streaming across our borders daily. One illegal alien in Santa Barbara, California infected 56 other people
      with tuberculosis as reported on April 24, 2004, by the Santa Barbara
      Press-News, “Anatomy of an Outbreak” .

    • PHOENIX Television and radio stations began running ads in the Valley last week, paid for by the Coalition United to Secure America, attributing the 45% increase in homicides and 41% increase in home invasions to illegal aliens. Phoenix Police Department reports confirm those figures and Sgt. Tony Morales believes there is no doubt that the statistics are tied to illegal aliens. However, news reports about the ads have brought out comments from Rep. Steve Gallardo, District 13, who was quick to claim the ads racist (yep, anyone against illegal immigration is always a racist).

    • 12/31/2002: Six-month figures revealed a 3.3% increase in violent crime in California, including a 16 percent rise in homicides, over the same span in 2001.

    • February 06,2006: The Monitor, According to the Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Assistance, more than a quarter of the approximately 400,000 days spent in the Hidalgo County Jail during the course of the 365-day period belonged to criminal illegal aliens convicted with at least one felony or two misdemeanors. (Days spent in jail during the pre-trial period were counted only if the criminal illegal alien was convicted of the crime.) The Hidalgo County Jail held 3,335 eligible criminal illegal alien inmates for the fiscal year 2005 reporting period, up from 3,136 criminal illegal alien inmates in 2004. These numbers have been confirmed through the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement vetting process, which runs inmate records through a series of databases to verify accuracy. The Hidalgo County jail only has approximately 1,200 beds. Not only do thousands of criminal illegal aliens crowd the jail, but many make repeat appearances.

    • 29% of all incarcerated in federal prisons are illegal aliens. The homicide rate by illegal aliens is higher than the norm.

    • Crime rates for many large cities in border states have been rising, while crime rates in most northern states have been falling.

    • In 1995, 11% of federal prisoners were illegal aliens.

    • In 2000, the average time served by illegal aliens in Federal prison was 21 months.

    • In 2002, 17% of federal prisoners were illegal aliens.

    • In 2003, 25% of federal prisoners were illegal aliens.

    • In 2004, 29% of federal prisoners were illegal aliens.

    • In 2004 (Aug), 25% of federal prisoners were illegal aliens.

    • In 2005 (May), 25% of California’s state prisoners are illegal aliens.

    • In 2005 (Aug), 29% of federal prisoners are illegal aliens.

    • In 2005 (Oct), 27% of federal prisoners are illegal aliens.

    • In 2006, 29%+ of federla prisoners are illegal aliens.

    That’s a lot of crime that never should have happened.

    But the crime is only part of problem:

    • burden on education systems;

    • burden on healthcare systems;

    • burden on hospital systems;

    • burden on welfare systems; 32% of illegal aliens are on welfare (Jan-2004);

    • burden on Social Security system;

    • burden on Medicaid system;

    • burden on border patrol systems; ever increasing numbers are needed;

    • burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;

    • burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;

    • burden on prison systems; 29% of prisoners in state and federal prisons are illegal aliens (Sep-2004);

    • burden on voting systems; voter fraud with fake ID;


    So, obviously, a lot of illegal aliens are lookin’ for more than a job. Some are coming for crime and welfare.

    RGF wrote: It simply is the height of bigotry to first watch our companies take advatage of Mexicans on both saides and then even attempt to close the borders to the problem WE CREATED!

    Ahhhh … the race card (again).

    RGF wrote: What about the way that criminal got there? If you read my earlier posts, you at least understand a part of the responisbility America has for creating and fostering the criminal element along both sides of our borders.
    So, according to RGF, all of that crime, disease, fraud, theft, and abuse is all the Americans’ fault, and …
    RGF wrote: Groups like the minutemen are NOT patriots at all. The minutemen, apparently, are just a bunch of lazy irresponsible mother f***kers who don’t want America to own up to its responsibilities!
    Hmmmmm … Those comments reveal an awful lot of hatred, criticism, and blaming Americans, the Minutemen, and calling anyone who disagrees racists and bigots (as above). And you wonder why Americans are calling for border security and enforcement of existing laws?

    RGF, Please continue as your are here. Please find all the blogs you can and please repeat all of this again and again and again. Really. This is exactly what is needed to anger and disturb Americans into finally doing something.


  • Posted by: d.a.n at September 24, 2007 7:41 PM
    Comment #234185
    RGF wrote: Don’t talk to me about racial generalizations and crime, d.a.n., Americans are just as stupid and just as criminal as anybody else …and we have less reason to resort to such lunacy considering all our advantages.

    NOTE1: did you notice RGF’s use of “we” above?

    NOTE2: notice the phrase: RGF wtote: Americans are just as stupid

    NOTE3: I previously asked: RGF, Are you an American citizen? RGF (above) answered YES.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 24, 2007 7:55 PM
    Comment #234186

    True, d.a.n,

    But, there is a difference…

    It is the hatred that I hate.
    Not the haters.

    That is why I try so hard to help them redeem themselves by getting this information through to them in this manner, and by any other means at hand.

    As for the rest of the preposterous argument you continue to sell:

    I have already pointed out how and why WE created the problem.

    Not only is it insufficient to say “some” as an argument for how to treat ALL of any group of people…

    But it is morally irresponsible to do so as well.

    Besides, the criminal element among both Mexicans and Latin Americans are there mostly because we fosterd that class of people as part of our manipulations of their economy. I am not even talking about the poverty we caused; we have been far more direct than that! See above posts on the maquiladoras!…and read them!

    That is why your solution is anything but a solution and all your evidence is irrelevent.

    Posted by: RGF at September 24, 2007 7:56 PM
    Comment #234187

    re:234185

    Notice the attempt to avoid responsibility!

    Notice the effort to pretend that anything that is stupid that OUR country does can somehow be avoided by simply denying the use of the pronoun, “WE.”

    d.a.n.,

    I don’t like a great many of the things OUR country has done. BUt, I will accept ownership of those actions and all the attendant responsibility that goes with them. That is why, as an American and an active member of this democracy we live in, I will continue to do all that I possible can to achieve greater moral conduct of actions by MY country!

    There are those among US who lack introspection, especially spiritual introspection, who tend be part of the evangelical right wing of this country, who have a hard time “owning” actions they don’t like even if they are their OWN …perhaps even especially if they are their own!

    Posted by: RGF at September 24, 2007 8:04 PM
    Comment #234217

    Yes, please continue. Anything else?

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 24, 2007 11:12 PM
    Comment #234237

    RGF, did you completely miss the entire point of Jack’s thread here titled: “Misplaced Compassion”

    Sure, we can wave some compassion for illegal aliens just looking for a job.

    But this is our country and our children.

    • Where is the compassion for U.S. citizens that go without healthcare and access to ERs because ERs and hospitals are over-flowing with illegal aliens (of which many don’t pay)? Is this fair to U.S. tax payers?
    • Where is the compassion for the truly needy U.S. citizens that can not get help because of limited resources, because 32% of illegal aliens receive welfare ?
    • Where is the compassion for the illegal aliens being lured here for sub-minimum wage jobs, creating an under-paid, under-class (practically slavery) ?
    • Where is the compassion for displaced American workers and the outrage at the greedy employers of illegal aliens ?
    • Where is the compassion for the U.S. victims and survivors of crimes perpetrated by illegal aliens and tax payers the pay the high costs of incarceration, deportaiton, law enforcement, and trials (29% of all incarcerated in federal prisons are illegal aliens), and the crime rates are rising? Are all illegal immigrants sexual predators or murderers? No, of course not. Most just see better opportunities offered by America. But, per capita, illegals commit a disproportionate number of violent crimes. We also shouldn’t fail to mention their contribution to illegal drug and gun trafficking, adding to America’s crime problem.
    • Where is the compassion for U.S. Americans who’s lives have been changed forever by illegal aliens that spread disease ? One illegal alien in Santa Barbara, California infected 56 other people with tuberculosis as reported on April 24, 2004, by the Santa Barbara Press-News, “Anatomy of an Outbreak”. Because illegal alien migration into the USA continues unabated for the past 20 years, we now have 16,000 new cases of incurable MDR tuberculosis in the past five years. We suffer 7,000 new cases of leprosy. We tolerate 100,000 new cases of hepatitis “A” in our society. Chagas Disease, which affects 14 million South Americans and kills 50,000 annually, streams across our borders as unchecked thousands of them enter our society. If your child goes to public school, they could be exposed, as thousands already have been?
    • Where is the compassion for the people murdered every day by an illegal alien (Source: GAO-05-646R based on study group of 55,322 illegal aliens over a 57 year period)?
    • Where is the compassion for all of the people that do not want to see a repeat of 11-Sep-2001, which was perpetrated by several illegal aliens ?
    • Where is the compassion or all the victims in S.C. which had the highest rate of violent crime (excluding D.C.) of any state in the U.S. and it is largely due to illegal aliens.
    • Where is the compassion for the U.S. tax payers net losses of over $70 billion per year due to all the numerous problems stemming from illegal aliens?
    • Where is the compassion for the 2.3 million displaced American workers?
    • Where is the compassion for all of the U.S. policemen murdered by illegal aliens? On 13-Nov-2005, Brian Jackson, a Dallas policeman was shot and killed by an illegal alien, Juan Lizcano. Lizcano had become drunk and went to the home of his ex-girfriend to threaten her. As the police pursued Lizcano after he fled the woman’s home, he shot Officer Jackson, who died later in the hospital. Officer Jackson was remembered by his fellow police as someone who loved his job and always went the extra mile. In Denver, Colorado, an illegal deliberately ran over a Denver polceman in a school cross walk “breaking his legs along with severe internal injuries. This is not anectdotal. This tragedy has occurred over and over in many cities across the U.S. These are crimes that should have never happened.
    • Where is the compassion for Min Soon Chang, killed by Jorge Hernandez, aka Jorge Soto. He killed Min Soon Chang, an 18-year-old college freshman, in a terrible head-on wreck while Hernandez was driving drunk. He had been arrested 3 previous times for drunk driving in 3 other states, and he had been deported to Mexico 17 times! Don’t you wonder why illegal aliens aren’t deported instantly after being arrested for drunk driving?
    • Where is the compassion for Debbie Thomas, who was the mother of three, was killed in a head-on collision on Christmas Eve 2003 when her car was struck by a car being driven in the wrong direction by illegal alien, Narciso Garcia-Jimenez. He later escaped from his hospital bed and is still at large. The car he drove had no inspection sticker and was registered to another person. When Debbie’s mom learned that her daughter’s killer survived and escaped after being treated at the hospital, she said she felt “angry, bitter and sad, all at once.”
    • Where is the compassion for female victim in Atlanta,GA. who was raped by Miguel Carrasco in front of her four year old child and two minors.?
    • Where is the compassion for a child under age 14 who was a victim of lewd acts by Zacarias Camacho ?
    • Where is the compassion for the 16 year old sodomized and murdered by El Salvadoran Oswaldo Martinez raped?
    • Where is the compassion for every fathers nightmare like illegal alien Jose Ramirez who beat up a 15-year-old girl after whistling at her? He broke her nose, fractured a bone in her face and produced cuts requring 30 stitches. The man worked in construction in Spotsylvania, Virginia, where the attack occurred, and resisted arrest to the point where police had to taser him.
    • Where is the compassion for the child used by illegal alien Jose Raul Pena (earlier deported for cocaine possession), his own daughter, as a human shield in an hours-long Los Angeles shootout with police? Pena and Suzie were both killed. During the incident, Pena used a 9-millimeter Beretta pistol which had been stolen last year in a burglary in Oregon. His office at the car dealership contained a bag of cocaine and a half-drunk bottle of Tequila — consistent with the illegal Pena’s previous deportation for cocaine possession. Videotape captured images of Pena shooting at the police while holding his daughter, yet his relatives are questioning not only whether he used his daughter as a shield, but whether he was even armed at all, according to the Los Angeles Times.
    • Where is the compassion for Esmerelda Nava, age 4, was recently strangled, molested and killed by an illegal alien who had been deported in 2003. The accused killer is Cornelio Rivera Zamites, who had been residing in Gainsville, Georgia. Esmerelda went with her parents to visit the 24-year-old Zamites. At some point late Saturday night, the child’s mother realized the girl was missing. A police officer found her body early the next morning in nearby woods. An article of Zamites clothing was close by and he was gone. Zamites had been deported for driving under the influence, as well as having no license or insurance. At least his illegal status was duly noted.
    • Where is the compassion for victims killed on the nation’s highways every year? Our highways have become far more dangerous since they have been turned into smuggling thruways for criminals.
    • Where is the compassion for 19 year old Travis Smith of Mesa, Arizona, was killed in 2002 by a carload of illegal aliens being smuggled to Pennsylvania? The accident occurred near Monticello in southeastern Utah, as the car driven by illegal alien smuggler Isidro Aranda-Flores plowed head-on into Smith’s 1966 Mustang. The smuggler apparently fell asleep at the wheel.
    • Where is the compassion for all those murdered in L.A. where 95% of all warrants for homicides are for illegal aliens?
    • Where is the compassion for the 16 year old girl gang raped by an MS-13 gang member Reinaldo Ramos?
    • Where is the compassion for all of these thousands of victims ? (estimated 3.6 to 12 to 25 homicides per day (the number keeps rising)!). Even if the lowest estimate (3.6) is used, the rate is twice the norm. If it is 12 homicides per day, that is 6.7 times more homicides. This is why border security and enforcement of existing laws is important.
    Posted by: d.a.n at September 25, 2007 1:57 AM
    Comment #234269

    d.a.n.

    You are generalizing again, d.a.n.

    THAT DOG ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT HUNT!

    Posted by: RGF at September 25, 2007 11:43 AM
    Comment #234271

    …and no, d.a.n.

    I did NOT miss the point of Jack’s article or its title. It is about Elvira Arellano, who was deported leaving children behind. She had AMERICAN BORN kids. That is grounds for adjusting status, but rather than let her do that or start the process, she was deported and her kids either followed her or are now wards of the state. That’s bullshit d.a.n. You want to talk about justice? law? what’s right? I wish you would tune into what’s really going on.

    Posted by: RGF at September 25, 2007 11:49 AM
    Comment #234302

    Poor Elvira.

    Why doesn’t Elvira Arellano take her son with her?
    Because Elvira Arellano wants to use her own son for her own selfish reasons.
    Because Elvira Arellano wants to abuse our citizenship laws and use her son as an anchor baby.
    Until the U.S.’s severely abused law is changed (to not give automatic citizenship to offspring of illegal aliens that try to use it for chain migration and to become eligible for welfare, Medicaid, and Blue passports, etc.), people born here are citizens of the U.S.
    If she wants him to remain as a ward of the state, then that’s her choice too, but says a lot about her.
    She is using her son as an anchor baby for her own selfish and illegal purposes. Not for her son’s welfare.
    Elvira Arellano, a 31 year old illegal alien, a twice convicted felon, used a church for sanctuary in Chicago’s Aldaberto United Methodist Church, along with her 7-year-old son, Saul, who was born in the United States.
    Elvira Arellano came to the U.S. illegally in 1997 and was quickly deported.
    She quickly returned and went to Oregon for 3 years, and then to Chicago for 2 years.
    The was then arrested for Social Security fraud and ordered to be deported again on 15-Aug-2006.
    Instead, she hid out in Chicago’s Aldaberto United Methodist Church and taunted if authorities want her they’d have to “come and get her”.
    And they did.
    Elvira Arellano is not just another illegal alien claiming to be searching for a better life for herself and her son.
    Elvira Arellano is president of an organization called United Latino Family, which lobbies for families that could be split by deportation.
    Elvira Arellano and other “immigration rights” activists have used her 7-year-old son and his status as an American citizen in the most disgraceful way.
    Elvira Arellano, shortly after taking refuge in the church, sent her son to Washington, traveling with Emma Lozano, Executive Director of the Chicago-based immigrants’ rights group, Centro Sin Fronteras, to request a meeting with the president. They handed a handwritten letter to a staffer outside the White House gates and returned to Chicago.
    Elvira Arellano, putting words in her son’s mouth, Arellano has said, “My son is a U.S. citizen. He doesn’t want me to go anywhere, so I’m going to stay with him.”
    Elvira Arellano is a criminal. She entered the United States illegally in 1997, but she was immediately captured and deported. Within days, she sneaked across the border a second time and remained hidden in the underground economy for five years. That is a felony.
    But it gets worse.
    Elvira Arellano commited identity theft.
    She stole the identity of an American citizen and used that identity to obtain employment and access at Chicago O’Hare Airport.
    After being taken into custody at Chicago O’Hare she was tried and convicted.
    And when ordered to report for deportation to Mexico she ignored the order of the court and became a fugitive from justice.
    Elvira Arellano was arrested again in Los Angeles 19-Aug-2007 where she was deported again.
    Personally, I think some time in prison might be a better solution before being deported again.
    So whose identity was stolen? The Social Security number that Arellano used to obtain a job belongs either to someone else or to the federal government.
    And if she were to one day make a claim against the Social Security System, using that stolen number, she could use it to stealing Social Security benefits meant for others who already used that number.
    Why should American people tolerate illegal aliens that steal others identities?
    She should be deported and if she returns again, then she can do some time in jail.
    As for as her son, whose to say he won’t like living in his mother’s country of origin?
    Besides, illegal aliens rushing across the border to give birth in our hospitals at our cost to get an anchor baby should not be allowed citizenship ever, and their new borns should not automatically become U.S. citizens. That law needs to be changed. In the mean time, they can can take their children with them, but their children shouldn’t be used for chain migration.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 25, 2007 2:12 PM
    Comment #234319

    d.a.n.

    You simply don’t know what you are talking about.
    If you won’t take it from me, go ask another immigration lawyer about this issue and learn something!

    Posted by: RGF at September 25, 2007 3:27 PM
    Comment #234342

    d.a.n.

    When I was in Law School, d.a.n., we had a group of law students and law professors who went down to volunteer time to help residents of the colonias, along the border region, file their taxes. They did this because it was a part of what they had to do to show good moral character to become citizens…and they ALL wanted to become citizens, d.a.n. That is an integral part of what you are missing about this issue. Their SS numbers were REAL, d.a.n., which is another part of what you are missing about this issue, d.a.n.
    Your inability to do anything but argue irrelevent facts seems to be causing you to make some argument weakening assumptions, d.a.n.!

    I would like to a be a part of the project again, if it wasn’t that I was involved in working towards building a practice elsewhere!

    After all, isn’t there value to assisting legal immigration so that they can become active productive members of our own citizenry?

    …or this about something else, for you?

    Posted by: RGF at September 25, 2007 6:36 PM
    Comment #234344

    d.a.n.

    I would also like to point out that as part of our involvment in that project, many of were made aware of other groups doing similar work all across the nation. Some were lawyers, law students and even accountants and accounting students. So, when you start talking about using fake numbers and only half the undocumented filing…
    …all you are accomplishing is the crystal clear communication that you don’t know what you are talking about.

    Posted by: RGF at September 25, 2007 6:43 PM
    Comment #234350
    RGF wrote: Their SS numbers were REAL

    Are you saying illegal aliens are using vaild and legal Social Security numbers?
    All that requires is a YES or NO answer.

    So you are a lawyer?
    If so, you should know that illegal aliens are not assigned Social Security numbers.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 25, 2007 7:31 PM
    Comment #234351

    Not legally.

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 25, 2007 7:32 PM
    Comment #234413

    Nope. You’re wrong about that. They can get legal numbers.

    Why do you keep making these assumptions without actually knowing?

    Posted by: RGF at September 26, 2007 11:27 AM
    Comment #234417
    QUESTION: Are you saying illegal aliens are using vaild and legal Social Security numbers?
    _____________
    RGF wrote: They can get legal numbers.
    False.

    Please show the proof that illegal aliens can legally get legal Social Security numbers.

    Only a legal non-citizen with a VISA or GREEN CARD (i.e. legal permission to work in the U.S.) can legally receive a legal and valid Social Security Number.

    If an illegal alien receives a legal and valid Social Security Number, it is a mistake by the Social Security Administration and fraud upon the part of the illegal alien (a felony for which Elvira Arellano was arrested and deported). Even if the Social Security Administration is fooled, it is still illegal.

    I would think that a lawyer would understand what the word “illegal” means?

    Where did you say you got your law degree?

    Posted by: d.a.n at September 26, 2007 11:52 AM
    Comment #235007

    UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES

    …am I willing to violate the anonymity of this forum and give you any clue as to my specific identity. There ARE programs and ways for illegals to get ss numbers. You are identifying yourself as an enemy to the process of LEGAL immigration and therefore I will not facilitate you doing any more damage!!!!

    There ae multiple examples of people from law schools doing both immigration and tax work. It wouldn’t be hard for you to find them for yourself…of course, you would first have to GIVE A SHIT about discovering the truth!

    However, I absolutely WILL NOT clue you any further as to who I am. I don’t trust you or this forum with that.

    Posted by: RGF at October 2, 2007 12:22 PM
    Comment #235043

    RGF,

    U.S. law forbids illegal aliens from legally receiving legal Social Security Numbers.

    You have still not provided any proof.
    And you can’t, because it does not exist.

    You talk a lot about truth, but then you tell lies about the legality of illegal aliens getting a legal Social Security Number.

    If illegal aliens can legally get a legal SSN, why was Elvira Arellano arrested and deported? It’s a simple question. The reason you can’t anwser it is becaseu illegal aliens can not legally receive a legal SSN.

    So you say you have a law degree and you do not even know the law? I don’t believe you have a law degree. If so, prove it.

    Posted by: d.a.n at October 2, 2007 7:25 PM
    Comment #235107

    d.a.n.

    I have no ego invested in proving anything to you.

    I have a law degree. That is enough for me.

    Now, either go inform yourself or go play with this with somebody less informed.

    Posted by: RGF at October 3, 2007 11:31 AM
    Comment #235139
    RGF wrote:You’re better than that, d.a.n. so cut the crap.
    I’ve discovered that those that decry the crap are usually those that produce most of it.

    RGF,
    Illegally obtained Social Security Numbers are not legal.
    U.S. law forbids illegal aliens from legally receiving legal Social Security Numbers.
    The link you provided above states:

      “Illegal aliens don’t need to steal or make up a social security number to give to an employer. There is another less illegal way in which the Government issues them a number.”

    So, since when did “less legal” become legal?

    So why keep pushing this lie?
    If you have evidence that illegal aliens can legally get legal Social Security Numbers, then let’s see it.
    QUESTION: Where’s the proof that illegal aliens can legally get legal Social Security Numbers?
    ANSWER: _____________fill_in_the_blank_______________

    What’s so hard about that?
    How can anything you write be considered credible if you can’t prove what you claim?

    I would think someone claiming to be a lawyer would know what illegal means (that is, if you even really ever studied law).

    RGF wrote: d.a.n. I have no ego invested in proving anything to you.
    Right. That’s because you can’t.
    RGF wrote: I have a law degree. That is enough for me.
    Sure ya do. Yet you can’t provide the proof that illegal aliens can legally obtain legal Social Security Numbers?
    RGF wrote: Now, either go inform yourself or go play with this with somebody less informed.
    Childish statements are a sure sign of frustration from of a weak and failing argument.

    If you would like to get some education, I suggest you start here.
    Then go here.

    Posted by: d.a.n at October 3, 2007 2:33 PM
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