What do Americans Owe Illegal Aliens?

Absolutely nothing. They broke our law. On balance, they cost more than they contribute, directly by consuming government services and indirectly by creating a cheap labor pool that holds down wages AND permits stupid work like noisy leaf blowing to be economically viable. We would be better off without illegal aliens.

You might pay more for your lettuce and fast food, although in the long run I am not even sure of that. W/o resort to cheap, illegal workers firms may invest more in technologies to replace labor.

Now let me shift gears. LEGAL immigration is one of the forces driving American growth and innovation. Many of our most innovative firms are run by or started up by immigrants. Many of those with skilled trades are immigrants. Immigrants bring in new energy and ideas. A country w/o significant numbers of immigrants is stagnant and uninteresting.

So let's look at immigration logically. We need and want immigrants but WE want to choose who comes to our country. We have no moral obligation - with the exception of certain types of refugees - to let any foreigner come to live or work in the U.S. America is still attractive to the world's best and brightest. Let's help them come, stay and build our country. We need skilled workers and tech savvy entrepreneurs. We could do w/o the guys sitting on the mulch piles or walking at the end of leaf blowers.

We need to revamp our immigration away from family reunification and "humanitarian" criteria and more toward getting people with useful skills. It really makes little sense to give someone preference because one of his relatives stole into the U.S. a decade ago. Immigration is our strength, but we have to update the paradigm.

A century ago, the tired, poor, huddled masses could easily find work in our growing industries. Unskilled labor enriched our country. We have no further use additional unskilled labor. While I admire the gumption of unskilled workers who cross the desert on foot or sail the ocean in the bowels of cargo ships, we really have no good use for them in the modern United States.

We need a strong immigration policy that we can enforce. We cannot let our immigration mix be determined by those who want to come. It is our country.

Posted by Jack at May 1, 2007 8:31 PM
Comments
Comment #218984

Jack
You are so right, I agree with you 100% on immigration policy. I live in Arizona, but in addition to tighter controls on legal immigration, we need a temporary worker program. This will allow people from Mexico and countries south of there, to come in temporarily to handle jobs that only they will do in this area. Arguments that if we paid more, legal citizens would do the work, are just not going to fly. I’ve seen both the good and bad sides of illegal immigration; most of the illegals really would like to return to their native country, if their subsequent return here could be done under a fair guest worker program. However, with no such program with tight controls, many of these “good workers” have to employ “coyotes” to get here. These coyotes are getting rich smuggling people across; they are often also involved in smuggling in dope, possibly terrorists, and would be without work with a guest worker program. Jack, keep up the good work: I am a frequent reader of the posts but his is only the 2nd time I felt the need to put in my opinion.

Posted by: Oldie at May 1, 2007 9:12 PM
Comment #218985

Jack:

Good post. I can’t wait to see the apoplexy on the face of the multicultural left when they see this post.

Oldie:

I do not believe that there are jobs Americans are not willing to do. Pay a decent wage! they will come

Posted by: Beirut Vet at May 1, 2007 9:30 PM
Comment #218989

RGF

I prefer illegal aliens do not come. If they do not come, they cannot suffer the abuses you talk about. Even with the problems, they must think America is better than wereever they come from because the cross deserts and oceans to get here. Let them stay home. Illegal aliens break our laws to come here. They put themselves at risk. I am sorry that they do this. But their breaking our laws creates no feeling of obligation in me.

Legal immigration is different. I am pro-immigrant AND pro rule of law. Which of these do you not like?

I know you think the U.S. is responsible for every bad thing. Many developing countries use us as a scapgoat. It excuses all the screws ups and corruption they have engaged in. Maybe the corrupt governments in Mexico had more to do with the problems they face today.

Not all illegal aliens come from Mexico in any case. There are plenty of Poles in Chicago and Russians in New York.

I support legal immigration. I do not care for the law breakers.

Oldie

Yes. I think a guest worker program is a good idea.

Posted by: Jack at May 1, 2007 10:17 PM
Comment #218990

RGF

Pretty tough, macho talk for somebody that does not have their “facts” in order.

In AZ, one of the most active crossing points in the process, people have their personal property plundered by IA’s. Bodies are all over the desert from the trafficers in drugs and bodies. Many of those coming across the border have criminal records and a lot of them end up in our prisons. The majority of them get free medical care that my taxes help pay for. They do not pay taxes in any substantial portion. Actually very few of them pay taxes, because they are paid under the table. They often are arrested with multiple ID’s. Then they go to the streets and DEMAND that we Americans GIVE them what they want. They have not earned a thing from this country. Most of them left jobs in Mexico to come here. Go Home! They pay thousands of dollars to get here. That does not sound like poverty to me. Invest those thousands of dollars in their own economy and build it up. Every other weekend I go to Tucson. While there, I have the opportunity to listen to the BP. They work very hard and take much abuse. The numbers they arrest are only a small portion of those that come across. That is why we first of all need to secure the border. Then proceed to take care of all the other problems of IA’s. To quote a poster from above, “you just don’t know what you are talking about…”.

Posted by: tomh at May 1, 2007 10:26 PM
Comment #218998

RGF:

Take a pill, dude. No need to go off the deep end. And no, we did not create this problem as every “blame America first” apologist would like to think.
Mexico is one of the richest countrys in this hemisphere. They are totally screwed up though because of a systemic culture of corruption. Hate to say this but they are doing it to themselves. Jack is right. They need to stay where they are and fight for a better country,not come here illegally and fight for the right to stay.
I also do not buy into your net gain on taxes in border states. Even if that were true, what about the other 46 states that are getting raped by the politically correct notion that we should care for all of the illegals, and then excuse the fact that they refuse to assimilate.

tomh:
Bravo

Blog Editor:

Don’t you think that telling someone to “shut the hell up” is a little over the top? Especially in a blog? Even from a lefty? Where are the standards of decorum for this site?

Posted by: Beirut Vet at May 1, 2007 11:18 PM
Comment #219000

BY TONY SNOW - BUSH WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY

Illegal immigration seems to have spawned a dreary debate about the merits of Mexicans, when it should be drawing attention instead to a very different matter: how to build on the luster and wonder of the American dream.

Immigration is not the pox neo-Know Nothings make it out to be. Begin with the astounding influx of illegal immigrants, the vast majority of whom hail from Mexico. While the population includes an eye-popping number of crooks, drug-dealers and would-be welfare sponges, it also provides a helpful prop for sustaining American economic growth and cultural dynamism.

Princeton University sociologist Douglas S. Massey reports that 62 percent of illegal immigrants pay income taxes (via withholding) and 66 percent contribute to Social Security. Forbes magazine notes that Mexican illegals aren’t clogging up the social-services system: only 5 percent receive food stamps or unemployment assistance; 10 percent send kids to public schools.

On the work front, Hispanic unemployment has tumbled to 5.5 percent, only slightly above the national average of 4.7 percent and considerably lower than the black unemployment rate of 9.3 percent. Economist Larry Kudlow praises Hispanic entrepreneurship: “According to 2002 Census Bureau data, Hispanics are opening businesses at a rate three times faster than the national average. In addition, there were almost 1.6 million Hispanic-owned businesses generating $222 billion in revenue in 2002.”

Skeptics counter that immigrants have clogged our hospitals, which is true — but primarily in places that offer lavish benefits to illegal immigrants.

As for crime, the picture doesn’t quite conform to conventional wisdom. Heather McDonald discovered that illegal immigrants in 2004 accounted for 95 percent of all outstanding homicide warrants in Los Angeles and two-thirds of unserved felony warrants. (Gangs, aided and abetted by laws that prevent local officials from handing illegal-immigrant criminals over to federal authorities, account for much of the mayhem.)

On the other hand, the most comprehensive survey to date of national crime data concludes, “In the small number of studies providing empirical evidence, immigrants are generally less involved in crime than similarly situated groups, despite the wealth of prominent criminological theories that provide good reasons why this should not be the case.”

Authors Ramiro Martinez Jr. and Matthew T. Lee note, for instance, that the Latino homicide rate in Miami is three times that of El Paso, Texas, which has one of the nation’s largest immigrant populations. That’s not just an anomaly. Another major study, “U.S. Impacts of Mexican Immigration,” by professors Michael J. Greenwood and Marta Tienda reports that “crime rates along the border are lower than those of comparable non-border cities.”

This doesn’t mean immigrants from Mexico are saints — it just means that they may not be the marauding horde some make them out to be. As it turns out, crime rates in the highest immigration states have been trending significantly downward.

Total crime and property crime in California are half what they were in 1980; violent crime has fallen more than a third. The state’s Hispanic population during that time has increased 120 percent.

Similar trends apply in other high-traffic states, with the exception of Colorado. While Arizona’s population grew 41.8 percent between 1993 and 2003, for instance, the rates for every major category of crime fell.

Why, then, the fuss? In America today, unemployment remains low, employment is booming, wages have begun to grow in tandem with the economy, tax receipts are exploding at the federal and state levels, and the United States continues to run laps around its European and Asian economic rivals.

The United States somehow has managed to absorb 10 million to 20 million illegal immigrants not only without turning into Animal Farm, but while cranking up the most impressive economic recovery in two decades and the most prolonged period of declining crime in a century — all in the teeth of the post-9/11 recession, wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the double-whammy hurricane season of 2005.

Rather than panicking, the political class might want to take a deep breath and attempt a little common sense. Virtually everyone agrees that we need to secure our borders, deport lawbreakers and slackers among the illegal-immigrant population, and revitalize the notion of citizenship by insisting that prospective citizens master the English language and the fundaments of American history and culture.

The Statue of Liberty symbolizes America’s affection for the world’s tired and poor, the “huddled masses yearning to breathe free.” Before someone razes Lady Liberty and decides to erect a wall to “protect” America from the world, shouldn’t we at least spend a little time trying to get our facts straight?

Posted by: Max at May 1, 2007 11:26 PM
Comment #219003

Jack,

I don’t know anyone who wants to give illegals a free ride. The question is, for the ones that have already been here for over a decade and established homes and families, do we kick them out? Or do we allow them to earn citizenship? This isn’t just a question of charity, it’s a practical issue. It would cost a ton of money to send these hardworking folks back home. Wouldn’t it be more sensible to let them earn citizenship under strict supervision at no cost to the US? The Republican proposal is just a case of cutting of one’s nose to spite their face, and frankly, Republicans have wasted enough of this country’s time and resources on their ridiculousness.

Posted by: Max at May 1, 2007 11:36 PM
Comment #219006

What do Americans Owe Illegal Aliens?

NOT A DAMN THING!
Other than a swift kick in the backside back to where they come from. I don’t care where Illegals come from. They’re ALL criminals. They’re breaking our laws just being here illegally. And they need to be deported as soon as they’re caught. And if they come back, put them to work. About 20 years of very hard labor in one of our prisons should let them know we don’t want them here. Then if they survive the 20 year sentence, send their butts packing again.
I have NO problem with legal aliens. They go by our laws to get here. And the majority of them are honest hard working folks that contribute to rather than drain our economy like the illegals do.


Posted by: Ron Brown at May 1, 2007 11:57 PM
Comment #219013
We need to revamp our immigration away from family reunification and “humanitarian” criteria and more toward getting people with useful skills.

Sounds good. You guys had twelve years to do it, why didn’t you?

We have no further use additional unskilled labor.

Uh huh. That explains the increase in illegal immigration coupled with the low unemployment… Not.

You might pay more for your lettuce and fast food

From the LA Times,

If you want to protest illegal immigration, protest everything about illegal immigration.

When the local diner offers a $5.99 gut-buster breakfast, a price made possible by the Mexican busboy in front and the Mexican cook in back, slap down a $20 and say “No! Enough! I will pay $12 for this breakfast and I insist you pay a decent wage to a legal resident to cook it for me!” — then you’ll have my support.

Posted by: American Pundit at May 2, 2007 12:15 AM
Comment #219017

AP

You are eating at the wrong slop house or greasy spoon. Where I go for breakfast I pay $7.95 for a large well prepared breakfast by a family owned/operated restaurant. Come on down, even though you aren’t on the Price Is Right, you can get a good meal here.

Posted by: tomh at May 2, 2007 12:39 AM
Comment #219019

Jack, it is always a pleasure to find myself in complete agreement with you. It strengthens the sometimes stretched relationship I have with many Republicans. I don’t open my house to strangers who may take my family’s quality of life, or life itself away. This nation is house and home to 280 million Americans born or naturalized legal citizens. We should protect it from invasion by those we don’t know just as we would our domiciles.

This illegal immigration tolerance of Bush’s and the Democrats is just about as unpatriotic an act toward Americans and America as I can think of, short of outright treason to an enemy power.

Posted by: David R. Remer at May 2, 2007 2:45 AM
Comment #219020

Jack and Max,

Max said: “Or do we allow them to earn citizenship?”

No, we don’t allow them to earn citizenship and incentivize another 20 million illegals to come here. No, ABSOLUTELY NOT! If they want to earn citizenship, let them EARN it the way legal immigrants do, LEGALLY!

Jack,
We need to kick a whole lot of incumbents out of office in 2008. Just learned the INS has not been allowing legal immigrants in on a merit and background check basis as mandated by law, but, on a lottery system regardless of job skills, education, or background check. Oh yes, a whole lot of incumbents need to go from the next U.S. Congress. This is just another example of uttter Republican incompetence to do anything well or right.

Posted by: David R. Remer at May 2, 2007 2:51 AM
Comment #219030

Max

The poem on the Statue of Liberty is not U.S. policy.

We have a right to decide who comes to our country. I am for legal immigration. Why do we even have to debate about law breaking? We have the right to determine who can come to our country. Our laws do that. When I googled cost of illegal immigration, I found lots of studies that show that illegals cost much more than they contribute. This makes sense, since the poor in general consume more in services than they contribute. But this is not the point. The point is that they are ILLEGAL. They are breaking the law. You can advocate, as I do, a more rational immigration policy, maybe a guest worker program, but you cannot legitimately advocate just letting people break the law. We have a right to decide who comes to our country.

AP

You know that politics is more complicated than that. I do not know what 12 years you are talking about either. We had a Dem presidents for the first six years and a Dem Senate for two more. Immigration is clearly a bipartisan problem.

As for costs, I am willing to pay more to end the chaos. I am not sure we will need to do that. Cheap labor encourages the use of cheap labor. Remember when McDonalds used to have a guy making shakes? It cost too much, so they invented a machine to do it. We have managed to cut labor by more than 90% in things like forestry or agriculture.

Beyond that, I have noticed a pernicious change. We used to have American teenagers working at the local fast food places. It was good for them to do (although not a pleasant job). Now when you go to one of these places, it is nothing but immigrants. The teenagers do nothing much.

BTW - my personal complaint are lawn care firms and those guys with noisy leaf blowers. If their labor was more expensive, we would have more natural lawns and less noise on crisp fall mornings. I would do away with the lot of them and prefer not to have them no matter what the cost. Let home owners mow their own lawns and they may do it less often, maybe install ground cover.

We need and want immigrants. We do not need and want illegal immigrants. It is the illegal part that is the sticker.

David

You are probably talking about the visa lottery. It is designed to increase diversity in the immigrant population. The immigrants do have a background check and must have a HS education and/or significant skills. We used to call that the Irish relief bill, since it was passed by Kennedy and Tip O’Neil to benefit illegal immigrants from the old sod. Since Ireland now imports workers, this is no longer the case, but it is not a bad program. It accounts for about 50k immigrants a year.

Posted by: Jack at May 2, 2007 8:06 AM
Comment #219032

Jack,

What we “owe” illegal aliens is not the point. We need a pragmatic solution to our current predicament. There are about 12 millions illegals in this country. We are not going to load them all into buses and and send them home.

Since they are not going anywhere, we should integrate them into the system. They should pay more taxes to cover the services they use. (They do pay sales tax.) They should be able to come out of the shadows. That is humane but it is also smart. There is really no practical alternative unless we like the status quo.

By the way, I thought you might find this article interesting because it is about one of your favorite memes: Republican optimism.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0507/3776.html

Posted by: Woody Mena at May 2, 2007 8:29 AM
Comment #219034

Before we can do any immigration reform we must re-gain control of the borders.

Then we need to address the illegals who are already here in a balanced way.

Next we’ll probably need a Constitutional Amendment to change the 14th: All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside

Finally we need an efficient guest worker program that doesn’t make criminals out of people who are looking to improve their economic station if life.

That’s a lot to do given the abilities of our current crop of elected officials.

Posted by: George in SC at May 2, 2007 9:32 AM
Comment #219039

Have to say I’m with you on this one Jack. Although there are still many Irish illegals in the US, going back to the 80’s, I still feel that a nation must maintain control of who is allowed in. I see it as similar to my home. I’ve very particular about who is allowed to come in. And when they come in, I expect them to respect my home, and to make all reasonable efforts not to use it in a way that would offend me. Is that unreasonable?

I know that our politicians here in Ireland are regularly lobbying on behalf of the now aging Irish illegals in the US, who in fairness, are well integrated into the local Irish American community, and who by all accounts are highly self financing, many of them running businesses. However, what’s sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander. In Ireland, we have over the last ten years seen a massive influx of people. Initially it was from people from outside Europe, with no connection to Ireland arriving on our shores and claiming refugee status. Under the EU Dublin convention, an asylum seeker into the EU, must make their claim in the first EU country they land in. Despite the fact that Ireland’s air and sea links at that time did not include links outside the EU, apart from the US that is, we received asylum seekers from all over Africa, Asia and the Mid East! For those of you whose geography is a little weak, Ireland is the most westerly point of northern Europe. After us, it’s the US. So anyone coming to Europe, would have to pass every other EU country to get here.

Many women were arriving on flights from other European countries going into labour. At the time, children born in Ireland were entitled to Irish citizenship. So were had a roaring trade in citizenship tourism, putting our maternity hospitals under massive pressure. Thankfully, that little scam has been closed off now, and mirabile dictu, no more heavily pregnant asylum seekers! More recently, we have had massive immigration from eastern European countries that have acceded to the EU. That’s fine, I have no problem with them. Also, we have huge numbers of Chinese “students” who come here to learn English. They register for classes for visa purposes, and are allowed to work for up to 20 hours per week, but don’t attend their classes. Instead, they work full time, typically in shops. They are very hard working and very pleasant. They are never heard to complain of racism, and they seem to cause no offence at all. Although they are flouting our immigrations laws, they nevertheless, grace our towns and cities and contribute greatly to the country. despite this, I am still uneasy at the fact that there are here under false pretenses.

I believe that a country, just like a homeowner, is entitled to set standards for those who may come in. I believe that there should be a process which is clear, fair and discriminatory. We should discriminate in favour of those who can best contribute to our societies by way of skills, education etc. No one has to right to come to another’s country and be a burden on that community , except in the most exceptional circumstances.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at May 2, 2007 9:51 AM
Comment #219042

Woody

I agree with George, re: border control. I believe most people (myself included) would be ameniable to considering some type of special treatment of those already here, if it does not create the incentive for others to crash our borders to get a similar deal. Think of the result of the amnesty in the 1980s. The only way to do this is to have real borders that you can’t just walk across.

Concerning loading folks on buses and sending them home - probably wouldn’t be necessary if they can’t get legal jobs. This could be done through better ID checking at the place of employment. I’m not particularly in favor of hammering people who for the most part are here to better themselves economically, but it makes no sense to not have this be part of any comprehensive reform.

I’m all for legal immigration. My great grandparents were immigrants. I agree with Jack that we should have a more rational way of choosing who we let in. I have no confidence that our current crop of politicians could craft a “comprehensive” immigration bill that included real border control. Look at the currently defunded fence just passed. They are too focused on the political end of getting votes. Until real border control is on the table, I’d rather have nothing pass.

Posted by: Mike in Tampa at May 2, 2007 10:08 AM
Comment #219045

Jack
et al

The rapidly increasing and younger population of Mexico and Latin America means that migration to the north WILL continue. It is a natural occurance. It is no more stopable than bird migration or tree pollen.That is without employing methods not acceptable to a civilized democracy not at war with our nieghbors,ie. kill zones,minefields,summmary executions etc. What needs to be addressed is management of the influx.
Calls for the deportation of undocumented people here already,12 plus million of them are xenophobic,sometimes rascist and always unrealistic. We do not have the military or police ability to do that. The courts system is already clogged with immigrtaion cases. The economic impact for the US would be profound. Witness the recent actions by the DHS at one company,Swift. Around 200 workers without papers were arresyed. The company reports a loss of 30 million dollars from lost production and trainning cost for new employees.Many of these workers that have chosen to fight deportation are stuck in limbo. They cannot work and they cannot leave perhaps for years until their cases are heard. In the meantime they are being forced to apply for public and private assistance. Most have families to care for. Another result to condider is that the Mexican government and economy would likely collapse with the sudden influx of returnees and the loss of remitance dollars. This would likely lead to insurrection and civil conflict. For us the effect would be more immigration. This time by war refugees and there would be no way of controlling it. Ask yourself,what would you do to get your family out of a war zone?
Time for some realism. Your assertion that we do not need “unskilled” workers is false on the face of it. The very fact that there are jobs for the undocumented belies it.A fair,and let me epasies FAIR,guest worker program would ease some of the pressure for industries such as agriculture. A path toward legitamacy for those already here is a vital part of any realistic solution. Bear in mind that if it is too onerious they will just stay in the shadows. Background checks,English proficiency etc. are appropriate. Things like returnning to country of origin first,huge fines etc. will doom the effort to failure.
I am in the contruction business. I work every day with Latinos,many undocumented. For the most part they are decent,hard working people. They learn skills quickly and and take care of their families. I work union and so do they. That means decent pay. Low wages are not a factor so where are the US nationals to take these jobs?We should cut a deal with with Mexico. For every corrupt CEO or celebrity hieress they take ,we take a boatload of hardworking immigrants. We would be much better off.

Posted by: BillS at May 2, 2007 10:57 AM
Comment #219047

Jack, we don’t agree on a lot but this is one we are together. Yesterday BP/Immgr, should have went to all the marches and arrested all the illegals and sent them back to where they came from.
Using there logic, if I rob banks, I should be able to keep the money, because I put it back into the system.

They are a very heavy burden on our welfare/medical systems, let alone on emergency services.

Posted by: KT at May 2, 2007 11:16 AM
Comment #219048

“I work union and so do they”

Are you saying unions knowingly represent illegal immigrants BillS?

Posted by: kctim at May 2, 2007 11:52 AM
Comment #219051

RFG


“A study came out over a year ago showing that in all the border states, a net gain from the taxes paid by illegals as measured against what they use is taking place.”

i’de love to see that study. here in california where the last i checked it cost @ $11,000 a year to educate a child in a public school, these migrants tend to have anchor babies, usually several. an illegal alien with 3 kids costs us @ $33,000 per year to educate thier kids, and thats just for starters, add in the cost of our overburdened ERs, and the public benefits these kids are entitled to because they are considered citizens, not to mention the extra class room space that needs to be built. where the net gain is i don’t see. these people displace american workers. what jobs won’t americans do ? construction, factory work, service jobs, what about restaraunt jobs many of us worked as kids in the 60s and 70s. can’t get those jobs anymore the illegals take them all.

“I have had it with the hogwash being thrown around about immigration. You just don’t know what you are talking about so shut the hell up.”

maybe you need to recheck the rules of participation.


Posted by: dbs at May 2, 2007 12:39 PM
Comment #219053

david

“This illegal immigration tolerance of Bush’s and the Democrats is just about as unpatriotic an act toward Americans and America as I can think of, short of outright treason to an enemy power. “

AMEN TO THAT !

Posted by: dbs at May 2, 2007 12:44 PM
Comment #219055

max


“This isn’t just a question of charity, it’s a practical issue. It would cost a ton of money to send these hardworking folks back home.”

no not really. first you hammer the employers, so that the supply of jobs for them dries up, then you deport them as you come in contact with them. i don’t think most people believe we can carry out mass deportations, nor is it practical. they come because they know they can get work. if there is no work for them to be had, eventually they will go home. really pretty simple.

Posted by: dbs at May 2, 2007 12:51 PM
Comment #219064

dbs,

Really pretty impractical actually. You’re going to send 12 million people home on buses? You’re going to track these people down? With whose army? You’re going to ensure they don’t come back again? How? Not to mention costs to the industries that employ these people, like construction of all kinds. Deporting all illegals and making sure none return would be a massive effort.

On the other hand, if we give them the chance to work toward citizenship, they will pay taxes and be monitored. This is hardly a free pass (they have to learn English, etc.), and raises money for the US while sensibly dealing with the issue. I think a lot of people haven’t thought this issue all the way through, and are just giving a knee-jerk response to the idea of someone getting away with breaking the law. This wouldn’t be the case. These people would EARN citizenship. Also, it bothers me that some recognize this mass deportation would cost so much and still want to go through with it. Haven’t Republicans needlessly drained enough of this country’s money?

Posted by: Max at May 2, 2007 1:53 PM
Comment #219067

RGF has been banned for his comments telling others to shut up.

Posted by: Watchblog Managing Editor at May 2, 2007 2:09 PM
Comment #219068

max


“Really pretty impractical actually. You’re going to send 12 million people home on buses?’


you need to re-read my post. where did i say this ?


“You’re going to track these people down? With whose army? You’re going to ensure they don’t come back again? How? “

don’t need to track them down. once again read my post. as to the second part, by securing the border.


” Not to mention costs to the industries that employ these people, like construction of all kinds.”


TOUGH ! hire americans, or legal immigrants, after all they were the ones doing this work before these people waddled across the border illegaly.


“Deporting all illegals and making sure none return would be a massive effort.”


once again. no jobs, no reason to stay. deport the others as you come in contact with them. deportation through attrition.

Posted by: dbs at May 2, 2007 2:10 PM
Comment #219069

Jack, you missed the point. Our Government has been telling the public they are legally importing the best and brightest and highly educated.

That is a bald faced lie, yet another one by this Republican administration.

Posted by: David R. Remer at May 2, 2007 2:13 PM
Comment #219073

max


“On the other hand, if we give them the chance to work toward citizenship, they will pay taxes and be monitored. This is hardly a free pass (they have to learn English, etc.)”

sorry it’s still rewarding illegal behavior. this will only attract more illegals. remember the 1986 amnesty ? we can then sit back and watch as the next wave floods north waiting for the next amnesty. didn’t work then, won’t work now.

Posted by: dbs at May 2, 2007 2:32 PM
Comment #219074

Jack

You’re a student of history. Do you have a sense of how the immigration picture has changed over the last century with regard to immigration laws, limits of numbers, and sources? Or can you point me to a good summary source of this history? I really don’t have the context for our current situation. If we have, as some say, 20 million people who have come here without visas and plan to stay indefinitely, how does that compare proportionally with prior waves of immigration, legal or otherwise? It would be helpful to know this, because the visa status of the immigrants may be an issue, or it may be incidental. Some hard facts would help me decide.

Posted by: mental wimp at May 2, 2007 2:34 PM
Comment #219084

kctm
My union does not ask about immigration status. It is not our legal or ethical responsibility. The union is NOT the employer. Other unions may work differently. Our charge is to represent the workforce in our trade whether from the US,Mexico or Mars.

Posted by: BillS at May 2, 2007 3:28 PM
Comment #219085

dbs
“..the public benefits these kids are entitled to because they are considered citizens…”

They are not “considered citizens,they ARE citizens. They became so exactly the same way you most likely did. They were born here. They are even eligable to become president. The governor of you state is not. You do not think it is a good idea to educate them? Maybe their parents should have had abortions? Would that please you?Sorry,but these are human beings we are talking about. What sort of nation would refuse to teach a five year old to read because of the actions of their parents?

Posted by: BillS at May 2, 2007 3:41 PM
Comment #219086

BillS
Wow, I really had no idea and I have to say that I am very surprised by that. You would think a union wouldn’t want the company they work for to be breaking the law. How would the union be “representing the workforce” if the workforce ended up with no where to work because the company was fined and closed for employing illegals?

I would think most union members would be law abiding and would at least respect where their paycheck comes from.
Is there really that much animosity between the two sides?

I am truly shocked by what you have said. I had no idea.

Posted by: kctim at May 2, 2007 3:58 PM
Comment #219091

kctm
Get real. The odds of a company being closed or fined are like winning the lottery. Contractors do fill out I-9s that nobody checks after looking at IDs nobody checks just like every other industry. CYA. What would put them under is not having a worforce. Most are sypathetic to immigrants. Why? Because they are not stupid. The point I was trying to make was given that the wages are decent,just where are the “gringos” clamoring for these jobs. We seem to have convinced a generation that if your hands get dirty or you sweat at work you are some how less.That if you do not make a living sending e-mails to each other your work has no dignity. Jack says we do not need”unskilled”workers. No woodsmen?no cowboys?no roofers?no gardeners?no movers?

Posted by: BillS at May 2, 2007 4:50 PM
Comment #219096

“The point I was trying to make was given that the wages are decent,just where are the “gringos” clamoring for these jobs. We seem to have convinced a generation that if your hands get dirty or you sweat at work you are some how less.That if you do not make a living sending e-mails to each other your work has no dignity.”

That might be the point you were TRYING to make, but the point that I got is that your union don’t believe in obeying the lay and you are OK with it. BTW, I worked union CWA Local 3204 for 18 years. We at least obeyed the law. Of course that was 20+ years ago.

Posted by: tomd at May 2, 2007 5:42 PM
Comment #219097

Actually BillS, I was being serious about a company being fined and closing. A pork plant just north of here was raided last year and it was said the fine was making them think about closing that plant.

While I would never be union, I do work with them alot and, at least the electrical and construction unions, are not as “sympathetic” as your union.

I still don’t understand how somebody could knowingly work with a criminal and not report him, especially when his paycheck could be on the line.

And as far as your “gringos” line of thought, its kind of out there.
I don’t recall Jack signaling out Mexicans, but you sure are willing to.

But this is my favorite part:

“I am in the contruction business. I work every day with Latinos,many undocumented. For the most part they are decent,hard working people. They learn skills quickly and and take care of their families.”

Guess what. The majority of Americans are also decent, hard working and intelligent people who take care of their families and as a fellow American, I would rather see an American hired over an illegal immigrant who has broke our laws and is now a criminal.

“Jack says we do not need”unskilled”workers. No woodsmen?no cowboys?no roofers?no gardeners?no movers?”

While I consider woodsmen, cowboys, roofers and gardners as skilled, it is my opinion that we do not need “illegal unskilled workers” here to work fast food, mow lawns, work plant lines etc…
As I agree with you that we have created a generation of pansies, I would like to see our teens and welfare cases do those jobs or not have money.

But why go off on a tangent like that Bill? I really have no clue how unions operate and was just curious.
I thought it was an honest question.

Posted by: kctim at May 2, 2007 5:45 PM
Comment #219098

Maybe immigration ought to look into that union. Every union I ever belonged to would never have illegals in their rank and file. As far as what we owe illegals is a ride to the border.

Posted by: KAP at May 2, 2007 5:48 PM
Comment #219100

BillS

“They are not “considered citizens,they ARE citizens. They became so exactly the same way you most likely did. They were born here.”


sorry, but i have to disagree. the 14th amendment was designed to make sure that freed slaves and those born to them were treated as citizens. it was never intended to grant citizenship to those born to people who were in the country illegaly. BTW my parents were here legally, they were citizens. how about you ?


“What sort of nation would refuse to teach a five year old to read because of the actions of their parents?”

thats why they should go back to mexico, or where ever with thier parents. let them learn to read there. it’s not my responsability to pay to educate the children of illegal aliens. they take far more than they contribute. they chose to come hear illegaly, and knowingly created a situation where thier families could be split up. a lack of planning on thier part does not constitute an emergency on my part.

Posted by: dbs at May 2, 2007 5:50 PM
Comment #219104

Those who say, “You can’t round up all the illegals and send them back to wherever!”, are correct. First, we have to make it less appealing for them to stay. Take away free health care, social support programs, free schooling for their children and free citizenship for children born to illegals.

Second, we have to make it more appealing to go home. If they are caught doing criminal activities send them to labor-type camps. If they are discovered working illegally fine the employer a year’s wages. Etc.

They will cross the border in droves … the other way.

Posted by: Don at May 2, 2007 6:01 PM
Comment #219111
You know that politics is more complicated than that.

That’s for sure. It was sad/funny (schadenfreude?) watching Republicans shoot themselves in the foot bickering over immigration reform over the last couple years and get absolutely nothing done.

You’d think that on immigration reform, supposedly a Republican issue, you guys’d have your act together.

That’s ok. You had you chance. President Bush and Democrats will take care of it now. You guys may not like it, but Republicans blew it.

Posted by: American Pundit at May 2, 2007 6:37 PM
Comment #219112

Bill,

“Calls for the deportation of undocumented people here already,12 plus million of them are xenophobic,sometimes rascist and always unrealistic”

Or maybe a call for the rule of law.

“Witness the recent actions by the DHS at one company,Swift. Around 200 workers without papers were arresyed. The company reports a loss of 30 million dollars from lost production and trainning cost for new employees.”

I don’t see a problem here. If they had hired legal people initially, they wouldn’t have the expense.

“Many of these workers that have chosen to fight deportation are stuck in limbo. They cannot work and they cannot leave perhaps for years until their cases are heard. In the meantime they are being forced to apply for public and private assistance. Most have families to care for.”

They can go home.

” You do not think it is a good idea to educate them?”

Not for US to educate them.

“Maybe their parents should have had abortions? Would that please you?”

It would please ME more if they stayed at home or went home.

“Sorry,but these are human beings we are talking about.”

Who should obey the law like everyone else.

“What sort of nation would refuse to teach a five year old to read because of the actions of their parents?”

What sort of parent would put their 5 year old in a situation where they were breaking the law, not to mention the danger of the trip getting here, Sounds like child abuse.

Posted by: tomd at May 2, 2007 6:45 PM
Comment #219117

BillS

You mean to tell me those “Latinos” are working union scale in the construction business? And these are jobs Americans won’t accept? I will be willing to wager that for every Latino in your company that is returned home, there will be five Gringos in line for that job. I do think that the liberal use of ideas (not literal) has been applied here.

Posted by: tomh at May 2, 2007 7:23 PM
Comment #219130

I get angry that the illegal immigrants act like they have a right to be here because they are not attacking anyone and they just want to live here peacefully. Well, they may not be attacking anyone but that doesn’t mean that the rest of us don’t still have to foot the bill for them. It’s really not fair to the rest of us who were in this country first. They try to make it sound like we don’t want them here because we’re just mean; but this is not the case at all. We don’t have a problem if they come here, but if you’re gonna come here, you’ve gotta work for your living just like everybody else here does.

Posted by: Stephanie at May 2, 2007 8:44 PM
Comment #219145

Paul

There cannot be very many illegal Irish in the U.S. anymore. You know that lottery program was created for you all, although the Poles turned out to be the biggest winners.

BillS

The solution lies with employer sanctions and actually enforcing the law. Most Americans want to limit immigration, but they feel bad about enforcing the law.

I believe in legal immigration. Those hard working people you talk about would have a chance to come to the U.S., but we should choose. It is our country.

If Latin American countries would get their acts together, we would not have an immigrant problem. Paul writes from Ireland. That country used to export people; now the economy is fine and people are moving in.

Re unskilled workers, we need some, but we, unfortunately, have plenty in America. Some are kinda lazy, but maybe we would be more interested in addressing that problem if we could not default to low paid, docile immigrants.

Some jobs just do not need to be done and would not be done if labor was more expensive. I am not joking re those lawn services. Those leaf blowing clowns are unnecessary and if they cost a little more they would not be disturbing the peace.

Max & dbs

I agree that it will be impractical to send all those guys home. Dbs makes the good point re starting with employers. We need to ratchet this down. It is a difficult problem. I admit that. But 12 million illegal aliens means 12 million people are successfully breaking our law every day.

David

Legal immigration is mostly family reunification. That is very nice, but it is a big autocorrelation and not the best way to get labor. The H visa program is the one that gets the best and the brightest. That should be expanded. We also have J visa, that allow students to work temporarily in the U.S. You find them at Disneyland or Bush Gardens. There are logical ways to do immigration. Giving preference to those who can cheat their way in, is not among them.

Mental

A century ago, all our immigration was mostly unregulated and most of the people who came were like illegals now. We restricted immigration in the 1920s and by 1960 immigrants as % of the population was at an all time low. In 1965, we reformed immigration to be more “fair”. That was the source of most of our legal immigration that flooded our country. The illegal came with the growth of the U.S. economy and ease of moving.

What changed was transportation. It used to be hard to travel. Now it is easy. I think the problem that bothers me personally is how much new immigrants can stay part of their old culture. 100 years ago, you came on a boat. It took a long time. You might write back to your family, but you were separated and became American. These days, immigrants can go back and forth, watch their home TV and never become American. That is just my opinion. I like America. I do not want it to be like Mexico, Iran, China… or even Poland. I want immigrants to Ameican to become Americans.

I do not know of any online source re. Actually what I mean is that there are so many sources that I cannot really recommend ONE. I did find this one.

Posted by: Jack at May 2, 2007 10:08 PM
Comment #219164

tomh
Perhaps you missed it. The kids in question are American citizens. They are home.
The jobs we were talking about are open to all. There is just not many willing to do them.I am in CAin a high wage area.which may explain it some.BTW many Latinos are American citizens.

dbs
The fourthteenth Amendment says what it says,period. Those kids have as much right to be here as you,like it or not. The Supreme Court agrees.get over it.

Posted by: BillS at May 2, 2007 11:19 PM
Comment #219193

Sorry, Jack, your comment reflects a lack of homework, before speaking.

WASHINGTON – U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS) announced today that it has received enough H-1B petitions to meet the congressionally mandated cap for fiscal year 2008 (FY 2008). USCIS will use a random selection process (described below) for all cap-subject filings received on April 2, 2007 and April 3, 2007. USCIS will reject and return along with filing fee(s) all petitions received on those days that are not randomly selected.

Note the use of the words “random selection”. This is not selecting immigrants on the basis of the best, brightest, and most educated. Sorry, reality can be a bitch when one is attempting to defend the unreal.

You said: “Giving preference to those who can cheat their way in, is not among them.”

On this we totally and entirely agree.

Posted by: David R. Remer at May 3, 2007 1:18 AM
Comment #219194

BillS

The discussion is not about Latinos. It is about illegal immigrats. Latinos, Hispanics, Mexicans, Guatamalans, El Salvadorans, etc. that are Americans are not what we are talking about. They are not subject to the laws we are talking about. Those that are here illegally is what we are talking about. So may you missed something. I did not bring up children, that is something you interjected into what I have said.

Posted by: tomh at May 3, 2007 1:35 AM
Comment #219200

David

All the H visa applicants are skilled workers. I suppose we are not getting the very best and brightest, but it would be very hard for the USG to decide whether the doctor going to Merck is brighter than the engineer going to Microsoft. The random makes sense here.

We should increase the number of H visas and decrease the general entries.

Posted by: Jack at May 3, 2007 6:58 AM
Comment #219219

A lot of tough talk here. I will honestly say that I don’t want to pay 10K to have my house painted instead of 5. The inflation would propogate everywhere. This column must be the home of the Jimmy Carter fan club because everyone is pining for 18% inflation. The immigration policy as it stands is working just fine.

Posted by: Schwamp at May 3, 2007 12:37 PM
Comment #219259

Jack - for once a bleeding heart liberal agrees with you. I too think illegal immigration is a huge problem, and for two main reasons:

1. It demeans the immigrant. They are denied basic human services and a living wage. They are a sub-class, and in many cases they work as virtual slave labor. This is wrong - and believe me, I blame them for it.

2. This ‘don’t do jobs Americans want to do’ thing is total crap, excuse my French. Americans want to do jobs that pay a living wage. If McDonalds and Walmart had to pay such a thing, then Americans would do the job. But because they have access to the illegals, what’s their incentive to pay more?

This is probably deserving of another post on my own blog. Thanks for the interesting thoughts.

Posted by: Jon Rice at May 3, 2007 6:20 PM
Comment #219263

Jon Rice


“Americans want to do jobs that pay a living wage. If McDonalds and Walmart had to pay such a thing, then Americans would do the job.”

these two companies, as far as i know, have never paid a living wage, because most of they’re positions are entry level. we have americans that will work at mc donalds, thier called teenagers. the problem is the illegals are taking the entry level positions that were traditionaly taken by kids just entering the work force. now everyone is whinning about a living wage. i say take the illegals out and put the kids back in, problem solved. these jobs are meant to be stepping stones to something better, not a life time career.

Posted by: dbs at May 3, 2007 6:55 PM
Comment #219272

Mexico’s demographics agency found that an average of 577,000 people migrated to the U.S. each year between 2000-2005, compared to 495,000 deaths a year in the same period. In 2006, 559,000 migrated and there were 501,000 deaths.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070503/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/mexico_migration

I just looked at my step sons picture of his whole class of 220 kids.

There’s 1 black. 2 asian. and 4 white kids.

Posted by: jrjr at May 3, 2007 9:40 PM
Comment #219384

BillS

“The fourthteenth Amendment says what it says,period. Those kids have as much right to be here as you,like it or not. The Supreme Court agrees.get over it.”

oh i see, so all some one should have to do to be a citizen, is for thier mother to waddle across the border illegaly and viola, your a citizen ? there are hospitals in border states that cater to mexican women. they prepay to come up and have thier kid delivered in the united states, in order to have an anchor baby. this is ok ? sorry i don’t think so. i’m curios why you have such a love for lawbreakers.

Posted by: dbs at May 4, 2007 4:21 PM
Comment #219539

Jack,
“We need a strong immigration policy that we can enforce. We cannot let our immigration mix be determined by those who want to come. It is our country.”

I’m sure Native Americans were thinking the same thing many years ago.

Posted by: Thomas at May 5, 2007 10:47 PM
Comment #219555

I really dont want to hear about how tough it is in Mexico or the problems being at the government level and thats whyt hey are here.

If there is 20 million Criminal aliens here, then 11 million of them or more are Mexicans. That would equate to about 35% of the total votes in their election.

If they all climb their criminal azzes back over the wall they can elect whoever they want.

Fix their own country before they ruin ours.

Give them Arizona, move them all there and let them run it and they would be snekaing out of there in 5 years because they ruined it too.

This is a cultural problem, and when you mix third world social and cultural skills into anything you doom it to suffer.

Posted by: Charlotte news Blog at May 6, 2007 1:29 AM
Comment #219565

I have written to Sen. Kennedy asking if he would support a new program where we here in CA would offer free 1 way bus tickets to Boston for all our illegal aliens. The Senator is always spouting off about how much these people contribute so I have to assume he would be all for this program and welcome them to Boston where they could contribute there instead of here in CA. Regretfully his reponse did not include any suport for my idea.
If any other states want the contributions of these people and would like them relocated to your state please suggest my idea to your local officials so they can take action on getting them moved to your state.

Posted by: carnak at May 6, 2007 3:18 AM
Comment #219846

carnak,
You can offer him ours…
I currently live in SC, but I’ve noticed in both SC and NC we seem to have an unusually large group of immigrants. Mostly immigrant farm workers. Many who can’t seem to understand a word I say…

I have no solution to what I see as a major problem. This is not only a political issue, but problem for all of the people who now call the US home.

I hate like hell to pay for social services, schools, health care, food stamps, SSI, etc. out of my tax dollars to those whom I don’t believe have ( DARE I say it) EARNED it by becoming US citizens.

I get especially riled, when I visit places in my own country, that is as to say natural born citizens, living WAY below poverty. People who want to work, but can not find a job, or pay for daycare, or don’t have the education to even run a cash register.

Or people who have been hit by major disasters and are still trying to find their way out of the holes Mother Nature has dug from them.

All of these are people are Americans who want the same as what the illegal immigrant want, but unlike the illegal ones, they can’t seem to catch a break. And I am one of the supposed ‘Bleeding heart” Dems, you folks talk about.

I say send them all home!

Posted by: Linda H. at May 8, 2007 7:38 PM
Comment #219901

I DISAGREE. ILLIGAL IMMIGRANTS ARE IN NO WAY,SHAPE,OR FORM CRIMINALS OR ARE GOING TO STOP COMMING TO THE US. JUST BECAUSE THEY ARENT LAZY AND DO THE WORK YOUR TOO LAZY TO DO IN YOUR YARD .. DOESNT MEAN THEY DESERVE LESS RIGHTS THAN YOU. ILLEGALS DONT GET MONEY BACK AT THE END OF THE YEAR FOR TAXES SO ALL THAT MONEY IS WHERE?? SO IF YOU HAVENT LIVED WHAT THEY HAVE TO FIND A BETTER WAY OF LIFE THAN YOU CANT OPINIONATE… YOU ARENT BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE.

Posted by: consuelo at May 9, 2007 11:03 AM
Comment #219922

consuelo,
You are wrong on a few things. First, entering a country without permission is illegal. If you commit an illegal act, by definition, you ARE a criminal.

I agree they will probably never stop comming. Hopefully we can slow it to a trickle though.

You are right, MOST illegals are not lazy. Some are. I do my own yard work by the way.

You are also correct to say they deserve less rights than me My rights are guaranteed by our constitution. Illegals aren’t covered by it. Maybe they should come in legally.

All that money you speak of for overpaid taxes sounds like bribe money to me. If they were legal, they would get their refund.
You say I can’t have an opinion about it if I haven’t experienced their life? Have you ever taken drugs? Do you have an opinion on it? Have you ever died? Do you have an opinion on death? Everyone is entitled to have an opinion on anything they want.

You are also correct that I’m no better than anyone else. I DO happen to live in the best country on the planet. One that at least 15,000,000 mexicans are willing to risk all to come to. I wish they would do it legally.


Posted by: tomd at May 9, 2007 3:16 PM
Comment #219937

you guys should take a look at this website
http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:yMjmzv4Bt4wJ:www.ucc.org/oghs/refugees/immigrationfaq.pdf+www.ucc.org/oghs/refugees/immigrationfaq/pdf&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us

what about the rich undocumented people?
My friend pays double the regular college tution and the whole family pays income taxes.
The parents came here because they wanted their children to learn english and they didnt want to let their children to be left alone in another country. So the whole family just came here and i bet they are staying until they finish their education. all i see in this blog is about the mexicans crossing borders and taking away jobs and stuff which i disagree(b/c of illegal immigrants the wages of people who have high school diploma went up and i never saw any of my freinds’ parents getting their jobs taken away by illegal immigrants. I don’t support them though…cuz they used to be very annoying in my school…very…). i understand that mexicans and latins make up aabout 80% of these illegal immigrants but what about others? Do you think that people like them can earn a green card at least?
what’s the difference between the legal and illegal? how do you come here as a legal immigrant? do you have to pay money? does anybody know?

i think we should let the ppl come here who hav some kinda good purposes for coming here. ex. they wanna study or wanna contribute to society like someone i knoe. he juss became a doctor in mt.sinai.

Posted by: nick at May 9, 2007 7:24 PM
Comment #219939

a coupla more thing..america is a pretty nice country but i dont think it’s the best…mayb the most dangerous country ever…everyone can carry a gun…even the drugatics and psychos…
if mexico was right next to england…they would all try to cross the england borders and if mexico was right next to canada…they would all try to go to canada…

Posted by: nick at May 9, 2007 7:33 PM
Comment #219941

nick,

They come in through our LEGAL IMMIGRATION POLICY. and it don’t matter if they are rich or poor, German or Mexican, Green or purple. Come here legally or don’t come.

And as I said in the above comment, you are welcome to your opinion, but my opinion is that The United States is the best country the world has ever seen.

Posted by: tomd at May 9, 2007 7:59 PM
Comment #219942

tomd,

but what i don’t understand is what’s the difference between the legal and illegal immigrants?..wat are things that legal immigrants do n contrast to legal?…pay taxes? if thats the only difference some illegal immigrants should be legal
i heard that the U.S. immigration is so corrupt and unfair so that it’s easier to just come illegally and then become legal.

Posted by: nick at May 9, 2007 8:25 PM
Comment #219964

“but what i don’t understand is what’s the difference between the legal and illegal immigrants?..wat are things that legal immigrants do n contrast to legal?…pay taxes? if thats the only difference some illegal immigrants should be legal”


I’ll try to illustrate: Let’s say you win the big lottery and buy a huge house. You invite your family and several friends to live with you. One day you get up and find a stranger standing in your kitchen. Would it make any difference if they were sweeping the floor? Wouldn’t you expect them to be invited before comming in? Now, suppose the next day you see the same stranger in your kitchen and another stranger in your bathroom. If it keeps up, you will lose control over your house. Paying taxes isn’t all it takes to be an american.

“i heard that the U.S. immigration is so corrupt and unfair so that it’s easier to just come illegally and then become legal.”

I haven’t heard of corruption in our immigration service. Yes, It is easier to sneak into the country than to come here legally. It should be harder to become legal once you are discovered here illegally.

Posted by: tomd at May 10, 2007 3:40 AM
Comment #219988

I UNDERSTAND EVERYONES POSITION ON THIS BUT THE POINT IS THAT SINCE 1986 CONGRESS HAS PASSED AMNESTY 7 TIMES. ALL THE IMMIGRANTS RIGHT NOW ARE ASKING FOR AMNESTY AND I THINK THEY SHOULD GET IT AND THEN STRENGTHEN THE BOARDERS SO THAT THEY STOP COMMING IN UNTIL THEY ARE LEGAL. I THINK THAT THE US HAS KNOWN THIS HAS BEEN A PROBLEM BUT WHY HAVE THEY NOT DONE ENOUGH AT THE BOARDER TO STOP IT? THE POINT IS THAT I GUESS IT HASENT BEEN A BIG ENOUGH PROBLEM FOR THEM OR ELSE THEY WOULD HAVE DONE IT,,,RIGHT? SO ALL IM SAYING IS WHY ALL THE MADNESS IF THIS HAS BEEN A ONGOING PROBLEM AND THEY HAVENT STOPED IT WHEN THEY HAVE HAD CHANCES?

Posted by: CONSUELO at May 10, 2007 10:08 AM
Comment #219990

“I UNDERSTAND EVERYONES POSITION ON THIS BUT THE POINT IS THAT SINCE 1986 CONGRESS HAS PASSED AMNESTY 7 TIMES.”

Not so. Ronald Reagan signed a comprehensive immigration bill into law that had the effect of amnisty. No laws have been passed since to give any kind of amnesty.

“ALL THE IMMIGRANTS RIGHT NOW ARE ASKING FOR AMNESTY AND I THINK THEY SHOULD GET IT AND THEN STRENGTHEN THE BOARDERS SO THAT THEY STOP COMMING IN UNTIL THEY ARE LEGAL.”

Of course they are asking for amnesty. Paris Hilton is asking for a pardon from jail too. Just because you want something doesn’t mean you deserve it.

“I THINK THAT THE US HAS KNOWN THIS HAS BEEN A PROBLEM BUT WHY HAVE THEY NOT DONE ENOUGH AT THE BOARDER TO STOP IT? THE POINT IS THAT I GUESS IT HASENT BEEN A BIG ENOUGH PROBLEM FOR THEM OR ELSE THEY WOULD HAVE DONE IT,,,RIGHT? SO ALL IM SAYING IS WHY ALL THE MADNESS IF THIS HAS BEEN A ONGOING PROBLEM AND THEY HAVENT STOPED IT WHEN THEY HAVE HAD CHANCES?”

Because we have been lax in the past does not mean we should continue to be lax. There is an increasing threat from illegal immigrants since 9-11. I realise that the terrorists weren’t mexican, but there is evidence that terrorists have and will use our southern border to sneak into the country.

Posted by: tomd at May 10, 2007 10:37 AM
Comment #220087

Not just evidence… apparently it’s happening.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070511/ap_on_re_us/fort_dix_plot

“Fort Dix suspects all are denied bail
Agron Abdullahu, 24, is charged with helping obtain weapons. He could face 10 years in prison if convicted.”

I like how that fact was put 2 lines from the bottom of the article.

Posted by: jrjr at May 11, 2007 1:47 PM
Comment #220088

Not sure why the /strong tag deleted ‘illegal immigrant’ text… but here’s the repost

Not just evidence… apparently it’s happening.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070511/ap_on_re_us/fort_dix_plot

“Fort Dix suspects all are denied bail
Agron Abdullahu, 24, is charged with helping ilegal immigrants obtain weapons. He could face 10 years in prison if convicted.”

I like how that fact was put 2 lines from the bottom of the article.


Posted by: jrjr at May 11, 2007 01:47 PM

Posted by: jrjr at May 11, 2007 1:51 PM
Comment #220104

CONSUELO


“I DISAGREE. ILLIGAL IMMIGRANTS ARE IN NO WAY,SHAPE,OR FORM CRIMINALS OR ARE GOING TO STOP COMMING TO THE US. JUST BECAUSE THEY ARENT LAZY AND DO THE WORK YOUR TOO LAZY TO DO IN YOUR YARD .. DOESNT MEAN THEY DESERVE LESS RIGHTS”

yes they are. entering this country with out permission is illegal. if you break the law, by deffinition you are a criminal.


secondly, americans aren’t to lazy to do these jobs. who do you think did all these jobs before this country was overrun by illegal aliens ? americans can’t get the jobs anymore because illegals came in and said in effect,” WE’LL DO IT CHEAPER ! it has nothing to do with being lazy ! they are stealing jobs from americans buy under cutting them.

Posted by: dbs at May 11, 2007 6:27 PM
Comment #220107

tomd

“The United States is the best country the world has ever seen.”

AMEN TO THAT !

Posted by: dbs at May 11, 2007 6:53 PM
Comment #220524

the govt should build a “great wall” on the borders if they dont want the mexicans keep coming in

Posted by: nick at May 16, 2007 1:36 PM
Comment #220664

What do Americans OWE to undocumented workers?

…How ‘bout approximately a third of the value of the labor that went into building their new homes?

Centex, DR Horton Homes, Bill Milburn etc. etc.
Have all stolen labor by calling in immigration ‘raids’ rather than paying their labor force for the work on building the houses they sell on to the American public!

Is that good enough for you?

Posted by: RGF at May 17, 2007 5:14 PM
Comment #220976

Jack,

The problem is that most do not understand what WE HAVE DONE that has resulted in the immigratioin situation being what it is in the present day. You included.

We backed a despot in the period during the Mexican Revolution (teens and twenties). This was the era of Emiliano Zapata and Pancho Villa. In the 19’teens, Mexico had an early head start on the aerospace industry. They were making well made and economical biplanes VERY competitively and selling them to Europe during WWI.

We came along and rammed the Bucarelli agreement down there throats by means of backing a hellish and death-squad-wielding tyrant named Victoriano Huerta who achieved power with our backing and support. The price was the Bucarelli agreement whereby Mexico could have no industry that competed directly with American industry. The Mexican biplane industry was nipped in the bud just in time for American entry into WWI. It is the reason why Mexico never had an Auto industry of its own. The closest it got was the Mexican division of VW.

We have PERVERTED the situation on both sides of the border since that time. On our side of the border, the top home builder and construction companies in the US regularly STEAL the labor cost from undocumented work forces by calling in immigration raids rather than paying for up to the last 1/3 of the cost of labor going into the construction of new homes. DR HORTON and CENTEX are among those doing this. They can hide, to some small degree, behind the independent contractors who are actually committing the crime, but it is preposterous to imagine that these companies do not know what is happening directly. They benefit from these crimes and they supervize the projects where these acts are occuring. I have currently documented this pheonomonon in four states.

The US owned maquiladoras that make auto parts and other small parts for various American industries are guilty of rather egregious human rights abuses as well. They regularly employ young Mexican women (preference is for smaller and more dextrous hands) who are considered too old for the job at about their mid-20’s. They want women they can control and who won’t run away because they often lock them in for days at a time to meet quotas. Thus they have a preference for single mothers who cannot run away for the sake of their children. Their kids grow up without supervision or even school as a result of what their mothers go through. In order to keep the mothers rooted to the work force that is abusing them, it is not unheard of for the ‘foreman’ to insure that these young women become single mothers…yes, that’s right…even if it is necessary by force.
Sick. Very Sick.

But this is real, Jack.

We owe a great deal to those who are immigrating across our border - both legally and illegally.
Hell, Jack, WE CREATED THE CONDITIONS that led them here.

Our current Immigration situation is merely the result of the seeds we have sown in the past.

The single greatest factor contributing to despair, povery and criminality in Mexico and along our borders is the DRUG TRADE.

All that our war on drugs has done, is to cause the profitability of drug running to go up. We are the market. The more profitable it is to run drugs across our border, the worse off many in Mexico will be. It’s that simple.

It is the height of self-indulgent folly to simultaneousy deny our culpability with respect the pressures and despair that cause those who are desparate to seek their fortunes on our side of the border while simultaneously ignoring our own ludicrous drug war and indulgent consumption of self-destruction in the form of the drug market on our side of the border.

Jack, we owe a debt of responsibility for the horror our own past greed has created. We created the circumstances which led to this current immigration situation with Mexico. We will never effect a lasting resolution with fences or harder enforcement of laws. The only effective means of dealing with the situation is to realize our responsibility and to stop taking advantage of our neighbor to the South. We must work towards economic stability and increased standard of living on BOTH SIDES of the border.
Otherwise, we will continue to face this issue over and over again.

Posted by: RGF at May 21, 2007 8:47 PM
Comment #222313

RGF, you are certainly entitled to your opinion as far as ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS CONCERNED, but I beg to differ.

Posted by: Rich at June 5, 2007 12:17 AM
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