Raping Justice at Duke

The egregious miscarriage of justice in North Carolina keeps on getting more absurd and will soon collapse. It was not supposed to work like this. In the made for TV movie, the rich white kids would be the villains; the poor, if a little nutty, black woman would be the victim; and the crusading attorney would be the hero. Reality is different.

A poor black woman says that some rich white jocks assaulted her at a drunken party. Durham District attorney Mike Nifong sure thought he had a winner. Not that he ever looked at the facts of the case. The facts of the case didn’t much matter to him. The story was just too good. Why mess up a good story with facts. Nifong dealt himself both the race card and the gender card and he was sure he had a winning hand. It worked. He got reelected.

Sharpton & Jackson showed up in Durham peddling the usual racial pabulum. Sharpton has significant prior experience with false rape charges (i.e. Tawana Brawley). Jackson is mostly into shakedowns these days, but as a good businessman, he recognized the need for good for advertising and promotion.

Liberal Duke University officials immediately disgracefully threw their students to the PC wolves. The mere accusation of a crime like this is enough to make the PC police apoplectic. Our great universities proudly welcome terrorists and cop killers; they name buildings after convicted criminals, but let some certified victim grade woman claim to treated poorly by "men of privilege" and they quickly shift into full shunning and punishing overdrive.

Soon the standard cast of characters slimed into the act; racial leaders, feminists and assorted victims' advocates all did their usual acts. None of them knew any of the facts. Facts! They didn't need no stinkin' facts They were drawn to the PC manure, as flies to the real thing. They called it a clear case of racism and sexism and they were right. They just got the victims and villains mixed up.

Good advice to any young man is to avoid women who seem nutty and sluty. No good can come from consorting with them. The Duke lacrosse boys made the mistake of associating with women of that kind. I believe that as athletes, they had no business drinking and carrying on, but mine is a morality no longer in vogue. In any case being dumb is not a crime and acting like degenerates is nothing extraordinary on most liberal campuses.

The jocks were guilty. Their crime was being rich & white and being accused by a poor black woman. The usual defense of not having committed the crime or even not being at the scene just does not work for them. Mike Nifong took no chances anyway. He suppressed DNA evidence that might have hurt his case. He coached the “victim” and did a line up for her with no wrong choices. She just needed to choose three and she was able to count that far. In short, Nifong did everything wrong. Yet the fiasco continues.

This is not how the made for TV movie would work, but life diverges from political correctness very often.

So who are the victims and the perpetrators?

The jocks are the victims of the first order. The accuser is also a victim, but she is a victim of the PC movement that pushed her way beyond where she could go. She made up a silly story. Had anybody really questioned her, they would have discovered her accusations had no merit and she could have returned to her previous lifestyle unscathed. Other victims include real victims of assault. Every time something like this happens, it makes it harder for a legitimate victim.

The villains are the dishonest DA, the racists and sexists who backed him and the PC police at Duke.

We have some heroes too. Journalists, both liberal and conservative helped find and bring out the truth.

This is not the first, and will not be the last, case of hysteria. During the 1980s dozens of innocent people faced charges of child molestation. One poor guy languished in jail for 18 years for crimes he not only did not commit, but for some crimes NOBODY could have committed.

The Duke “rape” case is melting like snow on a warm, sunny day. But let’s not forget how bad it could have been. Witch hunts didn’t stop in 1692. Witch hunters were politically correct in their day. Remember that the Salem witch trials began with girls telling fantastic stories. We have our own versions.

The PC community will want to forget this. Let's make sure they cannot do it easily. Nobody got burned or put in jail for 18 years this time, but it was not for lack of PC malice.

Posted by Jack at January 13, 2007 12:23 AM
Comments
Comment #202989

I often wonder if the visits from the likes of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, among others, might very well have had a huge impact on this man’s decisions. This was indeed a great example of liberal sensationalism run a muck. The radical groups thought they had their white whale, and turned it into a fiasco where the guy had little room to maneuver. I wonder if he even knew what hit him?

It just goes to show, don’t listen to vocal people and act against your better judgment, or common sense (or in this guy’s case: his legal training at a minimum). It’ll just get you a really vocal reality check more often than not.

This whole thing really makes me laugh…although I’m sure those kids and their families aren’t laughing…at least not yet. It looks as if they’ll have themselves a fairly deserving scapegoat.

Posted by: Kevin23 at January 13, 2007 1:21 AM
Comment #202990

Jack
Are you saying that the justice system is not perfect? Maybe even that there is a chance that there are people convicted and rotting in prison that do not belong there? Perhaps the system is imperfect enough that we should not trust it to pronounce irreversable penalties like death sentenances and those 40 or so capital cases where the DNA evidence showed the condemned men innocent were not just flukes?Or does this case interest you just because these were rich white kids for a change.

Posted by: BillS at January 13, 2007 1:27 AM
Comment #202991

BillS

When DNA evidence proves a person innocent, it is always a reason to cheer.

This case should never have even gone this far. It would not have done in normal conditions. Nifong was driven by the opportunity to cash in on racism and sexism. Had it not been for the race and gender PC establishment, it would have been dropped.

Posted by: Jack at January 13, 2007 1:33 AM
Comment #202992

God forbid that white males be wrongly accused of anything or be the “victims” of the miscarriage of “justice.” They should be thankful they were shot dead! But, of course, the PC police and community would prevent such victimization of blacks or other minorities! I guess that unarmed bride groom that was killed by a NYPD ambush was another one of these made for TV movies and not at all reality?

Neither Al Sharpton nor Jesse Jackson influence the language, tone, or content of this post—so don’t even go there!

Let the moralizing and justification begin…have at it Jack. I need more material for my comedy routine

Posted by: Kim-Sue at January 13, 2007 1:36 AM
Comment #202994

Kim-sue

You are welcome to use it. I expect it is a higher quality material than you usually get.

Posted by: Jack at January 13, 2007 1:41 AM
Comment #202998

Jack and fox, the “family values” people. I have to wonder at the amount of time fox news has devoted to this trash story. What did these kids do, go to church on sunday and get the lord to forgive them. It’s always wronged white boys, missing blond girls and the black boys who want to tell you that they didn’t do it but IF they did!!

Posted by: charles ross at January 13, 2007 2:51 AM
Comment #203002
Liberal Duke University officials immediately disgracefully threw their students to the PC wolves.

Jack,

Do you have any evidence to support the fact that they were all liberals, or are you merely manufacturing facts to suit your political agenda?

Posted by: Woody Mena at January 13, 2007 9:28 AM
Comment #203003

Jack,

What this case shows is that “mob rules” still exist sometimes. That the emotion of the moment sometimes over-rules the evidence.

This DA’s greatest mistakes were in not following the evidence, and assuming guilt rather than innocence.

The saddest question, is what would have happened if these weren’t “rich white boys”, or what if the situation were reversed?

We claim to be an “enlightened” society.

The truth is, sometimes we are far from it.

Posted by: Rocky at January 13, 2007 9:29 AM
Comment #203007

Funny, Jack’s lack of worry of Gitmo’s accused, isn’t it?

Posted by: ray at January 13, 2007 10:07 AM
Comment #203010

Charles

I do not know if these guys were Christians or not. If they are, I suppose they might want to ask forgiveness for drinking and irresolute lifestyles, but since they were not guilty of a crime, I don’t suppose they would need to ask forgiveness for that.

I am glad Fox (and CBS etc) devoted time to this story. Otherwise the PC crowd would have won the day with their precooked script.

I did not write this post primarily to talk about the miscarriage of justice, but rather to show how the paradigm has changed. We very often fall back on the pre-civil rights era scripts. So much has changed since then, but many still ain’t got the news.

Woody

You might be right. I figure there is significant overlap between PC and liberal. The Duke hierarchy proved by their actions that they are PC. You are right that I do not know if they are also liberal.

Rocky

You are right on all points. A poor person might have be railroaded already. When DNA evidence became widely available a decade ago, many men where proven innocent of false rape charges. Some had been in jail for many years.

As I wrote to Charles, I am mostly talking about the script that the mob followed. It is the same format as the Salem witch trials, the child molestation hysteria of the 1980s and any time dogma overtakes reason. The most salient ingredient is righteousness and believe of the participants that they are doing good.

The script tells us that the powerful do this to the weak and the script is right. But it fails to take into account that oppressors throughout history has seen themselves as victims. It is the victim status that gives them (they think) the moral right to be oppressors.

Posted by: Jack at January 13, 2007 10:16 AM
Comment #203013

Ray

They are not Americans and they were apprehended carrying on war against the U.S.. The rules of evidence would be different. Civil rights are different in a peaceful society than at a battle scene and we need to treat terrorists & organized crime figures differently than people who may have committed ordinary crimes. Besides, those guys in Cuba seem to have no shortage of friends and defenders.

Posted by: Jack at January 13, 2007 10:22 AM
Comment #203043

Why confuse the issue with facts? They just get in the way.
PC or not PC doesn’t really matter now. The fact is these boy’s were falsely accused and Nifong for what ever reason suppressed evidence that can and does exonerate them.
He needs to serve a very long prison sentence for this. Reporting a false crime to the police is also a crime in most states. The women needs to go to prison too.
As for Sharpton and Jackson, they’ve proved themselves wrong so many times I’m surprised anyone gives them any creditability anymore.
The media both Liberal and Conservative is to be commended for uncovering the facts in this case. It’s obvious that Nifong wasn’t going to do it.

Posted by: Ron Brown at January 13, 2007 12:53 PM
Comment #203045

Jack-
I don’t remember the victim’s race being much of any concern. Hell, I had told here that the victim was black.

You blame political correctness, but what we’re dealing with may instead be the consequence of a certain authoritarian view of law and justice, one fostered in no small part on what would be a decidedly politically incorrect view of suspects.

More and more, the criminal justice system has been portrayed as a battleground, where liberals and their focus on civil liberties have been turning out criminals onto the street to cause further havoc. Conservatives have pushed for harsher measures, and more disregarding of the presumption of innocence, more support for allowing people to jump to conclusions.

The media, through disproportionate portrayal of the incidence of crime (1 in 10 versus the real number, 1 in 100) and any number of series and movies featuring heroic cops and prosecutors stymied by bureaucracy and the courts have glorified a vision of the criminal justice system where fewer impediments are put between the system and the accused. Being tough on crime, on suspects, and on offenders is in vogue for prosecutors.

Given all this, the charge that this is all a result of overly politically correct liberalism is false. This is not at all the case. A truly liberal system would have the Prosecutor grandstanding less, the evidence weighed more, the rights of the accused more scrupulously watched over.

You cannot put so much of the focus on the decay of modern morality, scream and shout about how our cities and towns are being overwhelmed with crime, and then be surprised when Prosecutors and the media cross lines.

On the other hand, there is something to be said for the balancing of the scales that has occured. The case has publicly fallen apart, and the Prosecutor may even get disbarred.

Moreover, lets address political correctness, and what’s meant by that. There is a variety of it that is supremely nutty, which goes all the way from being opposed to prejudicial sensibilities to a reactionary reversing of them, which inflict torturous and unintentionally hilarious terms on the language.

The Republicans, though, say that what must be allowed, as antidote, is yet another reactionary philosophy, where the things the hyper-PC crowd are against become the things that the anti-PC tries to legitimize, even lionize.

That fallacious hogwash is merely a mirror image load of B.S. It is not particularly noble, nor helpful to the cause of reasonable social harmony for one blindly prejudiced philosophy to be offered as a cure for another. Racism, sexism, and other forms of bigotry are blessedly diminished in our lives today, and we are the better for it.

The truth is, the world’s complex, and our view of it a mix of subjective impression and objective fact. There is no nice, safe view of the world that we can all take to ensure perfection in our lives and in our actions. No view that self-aggrandizes our culture relentlessly can do us much good, because we are not perfect, and virtue between cultures is a marketplace selling both common staples of cultural life and acquired tastes. Many empires have pushed their tastes and their ideas on other cultures, only to see their influence vanish when their power wanes.

On the other hand, the other cultures of the world are just as human as ours are. Those who idolize Hindu Culture often overlook the caste system and the historical racism that underlies that aspect of things. Those who idolize Buddhism should not forget that even it could be twisted towards a nationalist, bigotted ends. Nearly every culture has darkness in it’s past, cruelty and other skeletons in their closet. Though it is a natural reaction to become sympathetic partisans for other cultures in response to the guilt of one’s own society’s past, we really don’t have an actual garden of Eden to return to.

Every generation, every people, every nation, and every individual ultimately have to recognize one glaring fact, one humbling truth: we are all only human, and yet being human is more than just following our underlying inclinations blindly. This is the tension, the trouble that no human society is spared, whose complexity, ultimately, no-one can fully understand.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at January 13, 2007 1:05 PM
Comment #203059

Jack-

Please opine on this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/13/washington/13gitmo.html?th&emc=th

Posted by: Kevin23 at January 13, 2007 2:33 PM
Comment #203077


Jack: The Duke insident kind of reminds me of how Mohammad Ali was pronounced guilty and stripped of his title with out a trial and as Kevin 23 and others have pointed out, the administrations treatment of the Gitmo detainees.

Posted by: jlw at January 13, 2007 4:50 PM
Comment #203085

Thank you, jlw, for getting my point. Sensationalism is prevalent on both sides of the isle. Demonizing one as a result means having to admit to partisan hypocracy. I like that Jack pointed this story out, but the roots of this type of hysteria is not in political ideology, but rather in human nature.

Posted by: Kevin23 at January 13, 2007 5:58 PM
Comment #203087

Jack and others,

There is nothing ‘PC’ about rape, sexual assault, and kidnapping charges. You may think these things are funny, and humorous, but I doubt you’ll find many people, especially females agreeing with you.

Your blog starts out as bias towards Duke University, and your comment about

“Good advice to any young man is to avoid women who seem nutty and sluty. No good can come from consorting with them.
is disturbing. Normally I would agree with you, however, just how do you determine a “sluty” woman? Most “sluty” women are “sluty” because of sluty” MEN! Men who think nothng about making fools of themselves because they can’t think with their BIG Brains. You know the one on their shoulders. The Lacrosse Team is certainly no better, or worse.

If this happened at another smaller, lesser known school, I doubt it would have gotten as much attention as it has.

As for the facts. Well you don’t know all of them either, evidently. I grew up in NC,and know the policies of Duke University, and several of its professors very well. I have one daughter who actually lives in Durham, as well as my oldest daughter who graduated from Duke University, and as a lawyer has been privy to numerous information regarding this “case”. She, of course, cannot tell me everything she knows, but I did know as of early last week,that Mike Nifong was “going to ask”(he was given no choice by the Ethics Committee investigating his actions) for a Special Prosecutor to be named.

Among the numerous mistakes Nifong has made are:

1. He has never actually spoken to the victim

2. He all but publicly tried, convicted, and sentenced the entire Lacrosse Team - prior to actually getting any information regarding the “supposed rape, sexual assault, and kidnap charges were even made. The first story that was released from his office stated that the entire team was involved!!!! And that he was placing them all under arrest!!! With the exception of the lone black player.

3. He was up for election, and publicly statedthis case was going to be tried in order to appease the Black Community. He was re-elected basically because no one ran against him - the only other candidate stating prior to the election that he would not serve as D.A. but was running solely because he hated Nifong and Duke. (real wimps are everywhere)

4. Not only did Nifong suppress the DNA evidence, he ordered the company who did the tests not to tell any of “defendants’” lawyers the results.

5. There were actually two DNA tests run. Neither test matched the defendants.

6. The site you alluded to Re:PCness actually take you to another site:Lacrosse Player Sues Duke
http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/story?id=2770931&page=1
is totally ridicous. The student originally charged that the professor involved with the ‘grade’ changes meant he wasn’t allowed to graduate. That of course is false. He apparently wasn’t deprived of anything. His grades were not high enough for him to have graduated with any type of honors. I suspect his case will be thrown out of court, however I am equally sure there will be other lawsuits.

7.Duke University policy is, as is the policy of most colleges and universities, automatic suspension of any student involved in any Major Criminal Arrest, until such time as either the students are exonerated, or lack of evidence convinces the officials at the school of the probably innocence of the the accused.

Obviously this has happened as the remaining 2 students facing charges have been invited back.
The third student graduated, and as of yesterday had most of the charges dropped.

8.The victim’s story has changed so often,even she can’t seem to remember it from one day to another. This is one of the basic reasons why Nifong has appeared (rightfully so)to be incompetent. Yes, Sharpton and Jackson showed up and amazingly disappeared from view shortly after attempting to show support for the victim. Jackson supposedly gave the girl enough money so she could quit “dancing” and finish school, howwever, she has apparently contiuned on with her choice of employement.

9.Please state where you found the information that the players are

… rich white kids…
. It just so happens that the majority of the players are on scholarships, and there is one lone Black young man who plays on the team.

While you’re at it would you also please explain the statement

…the poor, if a little nutty, black woman…

I think you are making judgements based on little fact yourself.

Duke University is probably far more Conservative than most of the other “well-known” Universities such as Yale, Harvard, Princeton and the like. Duke (strangely enogh) advocates learning,growth,and discussion. It does allow (OH NO!!!)each student to present differing opinions, and granted even has some ‘upstart’ classes - English, Religion, and History to name a few.

The biggest problem, as I see it, is the only way Duke will probably avoid being sued is if a trial is held. Should the Special Prosecuter drop all charges, Duke will be open to many lawsuits - lawsuits that will undoubtedly change the very substance and safety of many students. However even such a tial would most likely find all the defendants innocent.

As a parent I personally would rather the schools err on the side of caution, even though it does appear to find the accused guilty before proven innocent. In this particularly case one of the defendants was on parole in N.J. and this incident may have cost him his freedom, regardless of his innocence.

I will grant all of you that the team chose very poorly regarding their extra-curricular actives.
However, If there was any proof the team members actually had done something, Nifong has managed to screw up that as well.

Next time, Jack, make sure you have all the facts.

Posted by: Linda H. at January 13, 2007 6:30 PM
Comment #203089

Linda H-

You assumed quite a bit yourself. First, you do not know the moral fortitude of the lacrosse team. Nor should you even pretend to know. Jack, similarly, should not.

“The biggest problem, as I see it, is the only way Duke will probably avoid being sued is if a trial is held. Should the Special Prosecuter drop all charges, Duke will be open to many lawsuits - lawsuits that will undoubtedly change the very substance and safety of many students. However even such a tial would most likely find all the defendants innocent.”

And this is just confusing. Are you saying that having the students go through a criminal trial will somehow avoid civil suits? The two are different animals altogether. I think you are a bit confused as to the structure of the legal system.

“I will grant all of you that the team chose very poorly regarding their extra-curricular actives.”

And this is just not right. Everything they did was perfectly legal except for the allegations at issue in this case. We should stop restricting options of law abiding people who just want to blow off some steam, and deservingly so most of the time, and instead punish only those who wrong others. I really don’t like it when people impune generally based only on one, or a few bad apples. Its lazy, and ineffective. Honesty and diligence is a much more productive response.

Posted by: Kevin23 at January 13, 2007 6:47 PM
Comment #203104

The bottom line of this whole fiasco is that if you ever have a resume come across your desk with Duke and lacrosse team in it, it goes straight into the bin.

Posted by: loki at January 13, 2007 8:35 PM
Comment #203107

Jack-

Unfinished business I was, until just know, unaware of:

http://www.watchblog.com/republicans/archives/004615.html

Posted by: Kevin23 at January 13, 2007 8:41 PM
Comment #203110

loki-

based on what exactly?

Posted by: Kevin23 at January 13, 2007 8:50 PM
Comment #203112
based on what exactly?

…based on if every other demographic can be sterotyped, so can this one. You said above that you didn’t like it when people take a few bad apples, even alleged ones and imply everyone else like that is the same… It is lazy you said and I’d agree, though I’d use stronger language… but guess what, too bad.
Regardless of whether this goes to trial or not, the primary damage has been done. Go to anyone and say ‘Duke’ + ‘lacrosse’ and the answer you get will invariably be not good. If we aren’t going to get rid of unfairness, then let’s spread it around a little more evenly.

Posted by: loki at January 13, 2007 9:42 PM
Comment #203114

loki-

You agree with fostering admittedly bad behavior solely because bad behavior exists? Fighting fire with fire gets you nothing but scorched earth.

Posted by: Kevin23 at January 13, 2007 10:08 PM
Comment #203120

Kevin23,
I’m waiting for it to dawn on Jack that the total outrage he feels for some injustice dealt out to members of his team is just a momentary unpleasantness that other sections of society get put through on a daily basis.
I could be a better human being and fight for truth, justice and all that jazz… I’m just not in the mood for it today.

Posted by: loki at January 13, 2007 11:13 PM
Comment #203127

loki

The bottom line of this whole fiasco is that if you ever have a resume come across your desk with Duke and lacrosse team in it, it goes straight into the bin.

Why? Because some bimbo made some false accusations against some of the team members?
Where’s the evidence that a crime was committed by these boys? I can see some pretty poor judgement. But the evidence exhonerates all three of them.
The only crimes committed here were committed by the accuser and Nifong.

Posted by: Ron Brown at January 14, 2007 12:35 AM
Comment #203132

Loki-
I’m not sure you even have to list such things on a resume.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at January 14, 2007 12:47 AM
Comment #203200

Kevin23,
Why you choose to take me on, rather than Jack, I don’t totally understand. However, since you did, I re-read my post, and realize I do need to correct one of of my points.

In my first statement, I object to being lumped with Jack regarding the moral fortitude of the lacrosse team. Jack implied that they should have never gotten into this position, and did so do to a lack of moral fortitude and I tried to point out the fallacies of his point. He was using his own idea of morality to judge the team players and I objected. He also attempted to imply Duke University is a Liberal school (thus a bad school)- and gave no facts for this statement.

As for the second statement, You are quite right, I did not express myself well.

I meant only that Duke would be less likely to lose a civil suit if the defendants are tried. Regardless of the verdict. I did not mean that the school will not face probable lawsuits. I just think that a settlement would be much more likely to be in Duke’s favor is there is a trial. There just is no “leather glove”

Whether the school deserves to be sued in a Civil Court remains for the Juries\Judges to decide.

“I will grant all of you that the team chose very poorly regarding their extra-curricular actives.”

You said:
And this is just not right. Everything they did was perfectly legal except for the allegations at issue in this case. We should stop restricting options of law abiding people who just want to blow off some steam, and deservingly so most of the time, and instead punish only those who wrong others. I really don’t like it when people impune generally based only on one, or a few bad apples. Its lazy, and ineffective. Honesty and diligence is a much more productive response.

Not once did I say they broke any laws, or deserved to be arrested. I simply stated that they used poor judgement. If you will remember, a number of the players were under the age of 21, yet alcohol was provided. In this situation, because it involved underage drinkers, there may have been room to charge them with a misdemeanor or something of that sort. To my way of thinking the use of alcohol amounted to poor judgement.

I did not call for any restrictions on the behavior of the players or their actions. And most assuring agree they are also victims.

Personally, if the drinking age were lowered I would not have had any problem with their behavior - unlike Jack, who took it upon himself to decide to offer this:

Good advice to any young man is to avoid women who seem nutty and sluty. No good can come from consorting with them. The Duke lacrosse boys made the mistake of associating with women of that kind. I believe that as athletes, they had no business drinking and carrying on, but mine is a morality no longer in vogue. In any case being dumb is not a crime and acting like degenerates is nothing extraordinary on most liberal campuses.

Posted by: Linda H. at January 14, 2007 2:32 PM
Comment #203204

Okay Linda, that’s fair enough. I did mean to address Jack as well. I apologize if it sounded like it was solely directed at your post.

Posted by: Kevin23 at January 14, 2007 2:47 PM
Comment #203227

Appology accepted. As I said, you did get me to re-read my post and critique it. Something I didn’t do a very good job of when I posted it. I was just mad at Jack for the manner in which he phrased his enire post. Excuses, excuses - but my fault entirely. I don’t think Jack and I will ever be on the same page - something amazing would have to happen - and I simply can’t think of a thing that would do!!!
However I have seen it snow in July….
;-D

Posted by: Linda H. at January 14, 2007 5:38 PM
Comment #203323

Stephen

The whole reason Nifong brought this case in the first place was to pander to the racist votes in a tight election. Do you think Jackson & Sharpton would have been there otherwise?

A case like this, with no compelling evidence, alibis for some of the key suspects (one is on tape at an ATM at the time of the alleged time) and DNA evidence that indicates that five men had indeed has sex with the victim recently but NONE of them on the team, would never have reached this stage if not for the particular racial circumstances.

Kevin 23

Guantanamo is just not one of my issues. If I write something on that, we can comment.

Re your comment about the morality of the lacrosse team. I assume they are young men and maybe horndogs. It really doesn’t matter. There is no evidence that a rape occurred and a lot of evidence that it didn’t Just as we do not hold the victims character against her when it does not pertain to the facts on hand.

Linda H

As I wrote above, DNA evidence showed that at least five men had sex in the previous couple of days. None were the Duke team. This is just my definition, but I think if a woman has had sex with more than one man in the course of one week, she is a little sluty. The woman’s changing story indicates she is a little nutty. Generally, you should never invite a stripper to your house or party. Sometimes good morality makes practical sense. You get in a lot less trouble. I do not really see how we disagree except you do not like how I characterize things.

As to your comment re Duke and liberals, I responded to Woody re. I admit that I should not have called Duke liberal. I do not have information about that. They did behave in a PC way. I dislike PC more than liberal.

Rape is a sensitive issue. There is a lot of scope for misunderstanding. It is an easy charge to make falsely and an easy charge to deny. So much goes to motivation. It is one of the few crimes I can think of that can depend entirely on intention and intentions can change. What is worse, the MEMORY of intention can change. Mix that with all the passion involved and the different male/female perceptions, and you have a recipe for disaster. That is probably the reason sex is one the most highly culturally regulated activities in all cultures.

Posted by: Jack at January 15, 2007 11:55 AM
Comment #203348

Jack-

“Guantanamo is just not one of my issues. If I write something on that, we can comment.”

So you missed the point I see. I did not want you to comment on Gitmo per se. I simply wanted you to compare the sensationalism from BOTH sides of the isle. The story I linked to is more about pundits getting carried away and calling for firms to be effectively punished by corporations solely because they are defending Gitmo prisoners. If you respect our justice system, then shouldn’t you agree that this type of hysteria from the right-wingers is just as baseless and shameful as when people like Jesse Jackson try and influence events in North Carolina?

That is the topic at issue here, is it not?

Posted by: Kevin23 at January 15, 2007 1:34 PM
Comment #203383

Jack

Of course you would think that about your material! That is the how a legend in his own mind is suppose to think! Be care though, be a shame if you hurt yourself.

Posted by: Kim-Sue at January 15, 2007 5:01 PM
Comment #203439

As I wrote above, DNA evidence showed that at least five men had sex in the previous couple of days. None were the Duke team. This is just my definition, but I think if a woman has had sex with more than one man in the course of one week, she is a little sluty.

Jack,
You found out about the other men’s DNA the same way I found out about it. From 60 Minutes on CBS Sunday night,Jan.14th,2007 or an article referring to the program notes. When you first wrote your post you had no idea whether the woman involved had ever had sex, let alone had sex the night in question, or with how many men. You simply assumed that she was s slut, and a nut, because she was a stripper, I beleive,not because she was a black stripper

I’ll grant you the odds of the first were probably pretty high, and as time has gone by she does appear to trying to make her story “fit the facts”. In my opinion this does not necessarily make her a nut, but most definitely does bring her motives and honesty into question.

I agreed the situation could have been avoided, but as has been adequately explained, the idea of ‘Boys will be boys’ seems to be the major thought on this blog. Personally I’ve never liked that excuse.

Personally I, myself, doubt that I would have encouraged a ‘stripper’ at any party I might have attended in college, (or now for that matter) but, well I am after all female, and in general don’t cared much for naked females.

I therefore stand by the criticism I initially wrote regarding your post.

Posted by: Linda H. at January 15, 2007 9:34 PM
Comment #203442

Jack,
Just out of curiosity, how would you have handled the situation if you were in charge at Duke, or any other college? I’m really wondering just how you would have avoided the PCness of the entire thing.

Posted by: Linda H. at January 15, 2007 9:37 PM
Comment #203456

Kim

You said it. I can joke about myself. A useful trait.

Linda H

Linda H

It could be a hard decision. As it now seems these guys were victims of a crazy woman and a reckless DA, it is easy to be critical in hindsight.

Duke is not the big villain. I do wonder if it is the usual policy. There must be fair number of drug arrests and we know that ex-cons go to college.

BTW - I believe the fact that these guys were at a drunken party should have been reason enough to kick them off the team. I do not condone what these guys did. Athletes should be held to higher standards. I do not like the general slippage that has occurred in our society. I like strictly enforced honor codes. What I do not like about this case is that these poor guys could spend many years in jail for something there is no evidence they did. The university quickly piled on.

I also wrote this post primarily to expose the invalid template. As I wrote, this is not how a made for TV movie would come out. I am afraid too many people liked the PC story better than the truth.

Posted by: Jack at January 15, 2007 10:23 PM
Comment #203486

Jack,
Shock of shocks.

If you will remember,I stated:

…a number of the players were under the age of 21, yet alcohol was provided. In this situation, because it involved underage drinkers, there may have been room to charge them with a misdemeanor or something of that sort. To my way of thinking the use of alcohol amounted to poor judgement.

I do believe we agree on thi point.

Posted by: Linda H. at January 16, 2007 1:48 AM
Comment #203497

The entire issue fo the Duke rape case brings to light a far more disturbing trend in the news, the sensationalism of stories that aren’t really even national news. This has been happening for quite a while now and is really bullshit as far as I’m concerned. Being 26, I have a limited timespan to look at that I can remember, but I think to me the craziness started with O.J. That case was NOT national news. Nor was Jon Benet Ramsey. Nor was Natalie Halloway. Nor were a large number of these cases. Its one thing for a national network or cable channel to put out a national bulletin for an amber alert, but much of the cases like this, which all seem to involve some racial element, are bogus and nothing more than sensationalism for its own sake. At a time when we have 2 wars in progress, threats from North Korea and Iran, genocide in Darfur etc, does anybody really care about a local story? Its ridiculous and the networks that put this crap on should be boycotted.
Another aside, I find it a sad commentary on our society about the underlying racial element of these stories. I have yet to see a national story about a young black girl who gets kidnapped. And there are murders and rapes everyday, so why the hell does it take some racial element to make a story national news? I can’t stand the fact that its an oh so pliant media that allows an obvious race baiter such as Nifong to get the re-election he wanted strictly by race-baiting.
One final aside. I haven’t really been interested enough in the case to know if the woman in question was actually raped or not. But if a woman wants to make false charges against a man or men for rape and it should be proven that she did so and did it deliberately, I think she should get just as much time in prison as a man would for committing the rape. These young men, while admittedly behaving foolishly the night of the party/alleged rape, had their names and reputations destroyed on national television. If I were the Special Prosecutor and the evidence supported it, I’d charge the woman with purjury and obstruction of justice and plaster her name and face all over the news just as what happened to the men she falsely accused. I’m old fashioned enough to believe that rape is a serious enough crime that it merits a death sentence, making false accusations of rape should be harshly punished as well.

Posted by: 1LT B at January 16, 2007 7:41 AM
Comment #203547

1LT B,
While I tend to agree with you fundamentally, your argument has some flaws. A local story, such as the Duke case, does tend to transcend local news. Not just because the story is so odd, which granted it is, but because it brings in to question how our colleges and universities handle such situations, as well as serves as a reminder, (one hopes) to behave one’s self regardless of where you are.

It also brings forth your well-made point regarding women who lie about rape. I tend to agree with you as to the punishment of a woman who cries “wolf”. The thing you neglected to mention is that without this particular national coverage, it is likely no one would have even pursued this chain of thought. Of course, if there had been no publicity, then the players reputations may have not been so heavily damaged. (Hindsight is almost always 20/20)

I’ll grant you the global information you sited is possibly more important than local, but local news reflects on how we treat our close neighbors. It shows how we as people and citizens respond to an illegal act. Or for that matter a caring act.

And frankly it tends to be a tad more interesting, than watching wars go on and on, and feeling totally helpless about them. At least locally we can hope to learn, react, and possibly actually DO something, individually, about a wrong.

I am not necessarily saying that all of the “sensationalized” cases, should be reported on a notional level, but a good example is the Jon Benet Ramsey case, which opened the doors to the so-called “Beauty Pageants”, and allowed average people to attempt to understand their nature.

I do believe our Media tends to abuse it’s power regarding which cases it chooses to sensationalize. Todays’ Media seems to prefer to report only stories about Blacks,Latinos,and Asians in negatives ways. They also seem to prefer the rich over the poor. Just look at the “news” from Hollywood.

Personally I wish the need for news would simply vanish. Seems the very nature of ‘NEWS’ is to present the world in a negative manner.

Posted by: Linda H. at January 16, 2007 2:55 PM
Comment #203549

This place is amazing. A topic such as this and people still find something to argue about because it’s on a political board, not by the merit of the argument.

Get over it, people.

Keep up the good work, Jack.

Posted by: Matt at January 16, 2007 3:12 PM
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