No apologies

The Pope has killed a nun! For surely his words are to blame for the 70 year old nun gunned down (by Muslims in the name of Islam), and for riots which are rampaging through muslims streets, and for Christian churches that are being shot at and bombed…

Today’s liberal lesson:
Unlike when you call Bush a Nazi, or "radical Christianity" as dangerous as radical Islam, calling Islam a violent religion carries real consequences.

What I can't get over is the twofold response to this "provocation." One is the almost comical hyper-violent response of Muslims. The other is the co-dependent appeasement of so many on the left who actually blame the Pope and his words for the violence. I haven't checked lately but the same champions of free speech when it comes to insulting Christianity seem to have morphed into apologists for terror. The "politics of fear" seems a very strange thing indeed.

Case in point is an editorial in the New York Times lamenting how the Pope has, "sowed pain," and used words to deliberately wound muslims and insult Islam, and that he needs to, "offer a deep and persuasive apology, demonstrating that words can also heal."

Isn't this kind of like blaming the battered wife for, "provoking" her abuser into beating her? In fact, Pakistan's Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Tasnim Aslam said something that sounds a lot like what an abusive domestic-partner/wife beater might say:

"Anyone who describes Islam as a religion as intolerant encourages violence"

Others are even less subtle:

On Friday, a prominent hardline Mogadishu cleric called for Muslims to “hunt down” and kill the pontiff for his remarks.

“Whoever offends our Prophet Mohammed should be killed on the spot by the nearest Muslim,” Sheikh Abubukar Hassan Malin told worshippers at a mosque in southern Mogadishu.

“We call on all Islamic communities across the world to take revenge on the baseless critic called the Pope,” he said. ~theaustralian.news.com.au
What was the liberal argument again? Something about Bush and the War on Terror creating more terrorists?

Questions?

The real question which should be asked here is not whether or not the Pope said the wrong thing. The question should be: why are Muslims reacting this way? The answer is obvious and revealing. What this demonstrates is that the testimony of the Byzantine Emperor the Pope quoted agrees with the observed actions of Muslims today.

One thing is for sure, Islam definitely has no tolerance for criticism.

To err is human, to burn in effigy is divine

Under no circumstances should the Pope apologize for what he said. If he does, he won't be doing his job as a representative of Christ. In fact, it is my hope, even though I am not catholic, that the Pope will also call Muslims to convert to Christianity just as Muslims have called Christians to convert to Islam. Of course, for us to do so would be to say that Islam is not the ultimate and perfect religion. It would be to say that Mohammed's message is wrong. What reaction might this "provoke"?

Some may think that it is a Christian's or the Pope's responsibility to "keep the peace" at all costs. I would disagree. There is value in conflict. Even Jesus said as much when describing what would happen when the people of the first century began to convert to Christianity.
Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'

Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. ~Matthew 10:34-39
What He is speaking of here is exactly what happens in the middle east to Muslims who decide to leave Islam. Most Muslim countries see this as a capital offense. If you leave Islam, the best case scenario is that your family and your tribe will disown you. The worst case scenario is that your family and your tribe will kill you. Dead.

Death is the penalty for treason against Allah. Usually by decapitation, which is why Zarqawi and his freedom fighters cut the throats of prisoners and hostages. Such is the traditional definition of martyr. Someone killed for their faith. Not killing for it.

Truly, "a man's enemies will be the members of his own household," if he decides that Islam is no longer his religion. So should we say that this is acceptable behavior or do we assert that it is not? Clearly the left tends to side with appeasement. (Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

So what is the position of the left on this? Is it none of our business? Is the death penalty for leaving Islam just a part of their culture and not a violation of human rights?

Is death for insulting Islam merely part of the beautiful multicultural mosaic which we, as white capitalist oppressors, should accept as their cultural norm?


ADDENDUM: I thought it might be useful to include a link to the full text of the Pope's speech. The Vatican site seems a little slow so I've also 'cached' a copy here.



Posted by Eric Simonson at September 17, 2006 5:02 PM
Comments
Comment #182092

So, since they hate us, it is ok to: invade their countries; occupy them; bomb them; steal their resources; draw national borders to make the stealing easier; install puppet governments; prop up authoritarian leaders; and kill Muslim men, women, and children who resist.

Because they hated us first.

Hmmm.

Posted by: phx8 at September 17, 2006 5:50 PM
Comment #182094

So they want to kill the pope because he said they were violent?

Posted by: Loren at September 17, 2006 5:52 PM
Comment #182097

Hmmmm.. so if this type of thing is OK, I could accuse all conservatives of being hate-filled troglodytes, and then if anyone gets angry and responds in kind, I could then point my finger and say, “see, I told you so”.

Posted by: ElliottBay at September 17, 2006 6:18 PM
Comment #182099

It is just so darn confusing. Muslims hate us and want to kill us. Yet we overthrew the secular regime of Saddam Hussein, and 147,000 US troops are in Iraq, even though Saddam Hussein fought the fundamentalist Muslims!

Gosh, the whole world is just chock full of enemies! They all hate us! Maybe we should start a crusade, or, you know, kill them all, and let God sort them out?

In the unforgettable words from “Heart of Darkness”:

EXTERMINATE THE BRUTES

Posted by: phx8 at September 17, 2006 6:25 PM
Comment #182100
So what is the position of the left on this? Is it none of our business? Is the death penalty for leaving Islam just a part of their culture and not a violation of human rights?

I have no problem saying that is a violation of human rights.

What this had to do with George Soros comparing Bush to a Nazi (not saying he IS a Nazi) I can’t fathom. George Bush is one person. Soros didn’t attack an entire class of people. He didn’t denounce an entire world religion.

Are you suggesting that Bush is showing restraint by not fomenting anti-Soros riots? What is your point exactly?

Posted by: Woody Mena at September 17, 2006 6:33 PM
Comment #182101

Eric:
Spot on commentary. I have always marveled at the intolerance of muslims, who claim to be the most tolerant and peaceful of all peoples. The quote by the Pakistani foreign minister says it all;
“ANYONE WHO DESCRIBES ISLAM AS A RELIGION AS INTOLERANT ENCOURAGES VIOLENCE.” Unfortunately, the hypochrisy of that statement is lost in the mind of someone filled with hate and mentally living in the 7th century, which accurately describes the arab muslim mindset. This is the face of our enemy. They can say the most vile, base and racist things about Jews, and Christians, but take a quote from the Pope out of context and you would think he just suggested we settle the middle east problems with nuclear weapons.

phx8:
Nothing short of intensive therapy can help you at this point. I suggest you stop fixating on your own hatred of America, Bush and anything that hints at trying to protect you and the human rights you enjoy. These are the same human rights that have never been seen in that area, and it is time you admitted that America is the last best hope for this world. But I am sure you would rather use your freedom to critisize those that would like to spred those freedoms to those who most desperately need them. Release yourself from platitudes and you will find you have no leg to stand on.

Posted by: Beirut Vet at September 17, 2006 6:43 PM
Comment #182103

Real quick, here… lest we forget. Jesus was a Jew. Born, raised and educated in that environment. And, despite what others have said/written/spoken over the intervening centuries, he was executed for no good reason by his own folks. He is DEAD.
Get over it, already.
High time to quit using various versions of “god” as justification for killing, don’t you think?

Posted by: Craig at September 17, 2006 6:47 PM
Comment #182104

Damn, all 1.3 Billion Muslims converged on Mogadishu, that bastion of law and order, and killed a Nun…Wow!

Posted by: gergle at September 17, 2006 6:54 PM
Comment #182108

phx8 -

I’ve come to the conclusion that you don’t really believe what you post here. You just like to play the Opposite Game. If a conservative says “Up,” you say “Down.” That’s my opinion.

You can’t possibly believe the nonsense you’ve posted here.

Posted by: Chris at September 17, 2006 7:05 PM
Comment #182110

I actually agree with Eric. Islam is a violent religion, Jews are filthy beggars and Japs have buck teeth. We knew the real truth in the “good”war. Why can’t we just go back to those wonderful times?
Maybe someone can come up with a poster to add to my collection.

Posted by: gergle at September 17, 2006 7:10 PM
Comment #182111

Of course Islam is an intolerant religion. The mildest criticism provokes hate filled outrage and world wide expressions of violence. What we see on the muslim street is a movement that does not wish to listen or have dialogue. Those who are not muslims are kaffirs, infidels, and must be silenced at best, or killed at worst. We cannot deny the evidence of our eyes and ears. Peaceful religion? I don’t think so.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at September 17, 2006 7:13 PM
Comment #182112

Craig -

“High time to quit using various versions of “god” as justification for killing, don’t you think?”

We’re not talking about God [god] here. And certainly not about Jesus. So… I don’t get your point.

Posted by: Don at September 17, 2006 7:23 PM
Comment #182113

If a dog owner constantly beats his dog with a
rolled up newspaper, most of us would probably
cheer if that abused dog eventually turned and
bit his owner.
If the dog owner simply called that dog stupid
on occasion, the dog would probably never bite
the owner but may fear him. Especially if there was alot of anger in the owners tone of voice.

So what is the difference between radical
Muslim extremists and the common cur? Besides
the ability or inability to understand English
or Arabic?

Not much. But I think the common cur may actually
be more civilized or shows more unconditional
love. And for people wanting to commit suicide,
but can’t seem to do it themselves. Forget
suicide by cop. Just insult the high and mighty
Mohammed in public. Make sure the press got your
name spelled correctly and your address is listed
and well… you’re as good as dead.

Because you see. Radical Muslim extremists
apparently don’t believe the founder of their faith is strong enough to take feeble human
criticism. And obviously the faith of a few
manical Muslims isn’t strong enough to let
their “god” be criticized. Their faith, their
GOD, their religion IS NOT pathetic. But a few
fanatical FOLLOWERS certainly are!

Posted by: Dale G. at September 17, 2006 7:24 PM
Comment #182114

Of course, we may have to deal with those damn Christians, too. There were those killings of abortionists a few years ago, and Guy’s like this.

Maybe we should just nuke’ em all!!! Yeah that’s it, let’s kill all those dirty and violent types. I mean they are just asking for trouble.


Posted by: gergle at September 17, 2006 7:28 PM
Comment #182115

The rioters are responsible for the riots. The Pope is responsible for his ignorance in how his words would be received. That is where responsibility lies, and I am confident the Pope would agree with every word of this.

One does not spread future peace by invoking images and references of hate and ignorance from the past.

Posted by: David R. Remer at September 17, 2006 7:40 PM
Comment #182116

Eric

I am amazed that someone on the left hasn’t yet blamed the president for the pope’s comments.

Surely, the president put him up to it. I bet the president called him up and said something like:

“Ben, I need an event right before the election that will highlight the enemy we face in this War on Terror. Can you do me a favor and call Muslims ruthless killers for me? You may be called my lap dog, but I would really appreciate the favor.By the way, Ben, we decided to waive the duty on Vatican holy water and rosary beads. There may be a spike in the barrel price of that water.Thought you should know….Dick told me that and Carl has faxed you what to say”

Maybe Jack Murtha will say that “pressure” caused the remarks.Better still, Joe Wilson could say that he was sure he saw the pope in Nigeria, and that he knew the pope would someday
go public.What will Pelosi, Kerry and Dean say….THAT is what I want to know……

Posted by: sicilianeagle at September 17, 2006 7:45 PM
Comment #182119

What’s this appeasment you’re talking about? Atrocious behavior is atrocious behavior, period. Murder, torture, imprisonment without just cause — it’s all atrocious, no matter who does it.

Posted by: Trent at September 17, 2006 7:50 PM
Comment #182120

Oh, I get it — you’re using the death of this nun to score political points! Nice work, Eric! Those damn liberals!

Posted by: Trent at September 17, 2006 7:51 PM
Comment #182121

Gergle -

“Of course, we may have to deal with those damn Christians, too.”

I don’t get the connection with this thread…

The “Guy” you referred to only advocates that a grandfather may have to take the law into his own hands in regard to the killing of a grandchild… not that Christians should go out and kill abortionists for vengeance or any other reason.

Actually, I think the “Guy” is a little bit of a kook. He won’t be taken seriously by any mainstream Christians. And he is one person, not a movement.

Maybe you just hate Christians in general and want to lump them with jihadists??

Posted by: Don at September 17, 2006 7:53 PM
Comment #182122

David -
“The Pope is responsible for his ignorance in how his words would be received. That is where responsibility lies…”

Blaming the victim again, eh? The pope said nothing that should be received with violence. Those who responded with violence are responsible for their own acts. The pope spoke truth. You, of all people, are in favor of truth, right?

Posted by: Don at September 17, 2006 7:58 PM
Comment #182123

Don, did you miss his convictions for burning down clinics? or the title of his piece?

I guess that’s not extremism to you, because it’s Christian.

If you think he’s the only one, you must not ever read the newspaper.

My point was one of sarcasm, there are all kinds of nuts in the world. Some use religion to drape themseves in, some flags. If you think all 1.3 billion Muslim support the killing of a Nun in Mogadishu, then your as nutty as Eric’s post.


Posted by: gergle at September 17, 2006 8:00 PM
Comment #182124

BTW,

all of the liberals out there who are so against
the war in Iraq ( which is somewhat different
from the war on terrorism ), which I’m not all
for myself. Which is more important to you?

Freedom of speech or stopping the war altogether?

If not for 9/11, which was pretty much the straw
that broke OUR “camels” back, would we be in Iraq
and have “half the world” hating us? Argue all
you want that we shouldn’t be in Iraq. I mean,
who cares if dictators thrive and democracy dies?
Who cares if their populace used to die if they
expressed their outrage over one of the many
Saddam atrocities? Free speech is only good for
free countries…right? I’ll betcha that Somalian
Nun thought that she had free speech.
You can stand for something…or you can lay
back and do nothing. Make up your “minds”
liberals as to what type of world you want to
live in.

Posted by: Dale G. at September 17, 2006 8:00 PM
Comment #182125

SE

Actually I think it was the evil masters Karl and Dick that put him up to it.

Posted by: Keith at September 17, 2006 8:02 PM
Comment #182126

Oh my, by now I should know better than not to trust statements in articles here. It’s not clear at all whether the nun was killed in retaliation for the pope’s remarks.

Today’s lesson: never assume what is posted here is true.

Posted by: Trent at September 17, 2006 8:07 PM
Comment #182127

Craig
Just to correct one of your typos.

Jesus is not DEAD. He is ALIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: tomh at September 17, 2006 8:10 PM
Comment #182128

Huh. Do ya think this might be contributing to Muslim anger?

Nah.

Posted by: Trent at September 17, 2006 8:12 PM
Comment #182135

My Name Is Roger:

QUESTION: What do you think the reaction would be [ IF ] we as Christians in the 21 centry, did [IN THE NAME OF GOD OR CHRIST ] what the Muslims are doing [ IN THE NAME OF ALLAH OR MOHAMMED ].

Now… I know there will be someone out there who will say, Christians did do things like that in the name of Christ, during the crusades.

But the differeance is… thought they did it in the name of Christ, it was not according to the teaching of Christ to do so, but it is the teaching of Mohammed.

ROGER A Conserative Christian Rupublican

Posted by: ROGER at September 17, 2006 8:36 PM
Comment #182137

I think the pope should have picked his words better, but not because he should be afraid of what some Muslim might try to do to him.

He should do it because we have to live with all kinds of people in this world, and thoughtless comments that insult others are not Christian ones to make. We should lead by example.

As for those Muslims who get up and arms? What they do is their responsibility. They’re actions belong to them.

The same goes for the people here who seem intent on demonizing every Muslim on the planet on account of the few that make trouble and commit crimes in the name of their religion. The kind of racial hatred expressed here sometimes is simply shocking, and its mistaken course to take in and of itself.

If you want peace, if you want to win the propaganda war, the first step is to stop being predictable reactionaries. We’re not going to cripple al-Qaeda by being bastards to the people we’re trying to keep out of their ranks and off their side.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 17, 2006 8:40 PM
Comment #182140

Woody:

Here’s a dose of reality fom you:

From the mouth of Will Durant…perhaps the world’s greatest historian…. about the killing of between 60 to 80 MILLION Indians by the Muslims pre-British occupation.

They killed more Hindus in the name of Allah than the sum total of what the Nazi’s did during WWII, The Khlmer Rouge did in Cambodia, the Turks did to the Armenians, the US to the Indians and slaves, COMBINED!!!


Here is an exerpt of Durant’s work that I pulled from Jihad Watch:

[…] The world famous historian, Will Durant has written in his ‘Story of Civilization’ that “the Mohammedan conquest of India was probably the bloodiest story in history”.

India, before the advent of Islamic imperialism, was not exactly a zone of complete tranquility and peace like many other parts of the world. There were plenty of wars fought by Hindu princes. Despite all these wars, the Hindus had observed some time-honored conventions sanctioned by the Sastras. The Brahmins and the Bhikshus were never molested. The cows were never killed. The temples were never touched. The chastity of women was never violated. The non-combatants were never killed or captured. A human habitation was never attacked unless it was a fort. The civil population was never plundered. War booty was an unknown item in the calculations of conquerors. The martial classes, who clashed, mostly in open spaces, had a code of honor. Sacrifice of honor for victory or material gain was deemed as worse than death.

Islamic imperialism came with a different code - the Sunnah of the Prophet. It required its warriors to fall upon the helpless civil population after a decisive victory had been won on the battlefield. It required them to sack and burn down villages and towns after the defenders had died fighting or had fled. The cows, the Brahmins, and the Bhikshus invited their special attention in mass murders of non-combatants. The temples and monasteries were their special targets in an orgy of pillage and arson. Those whom they did not kill, they captured and sold as slaves. The magnitude of the booty looted even from the bodies of the dead, was a measure of the success of a military mission. And they did all this as mujahids (holy warriors) and ghazls (kafir-killers) in the service of Allah and his Last Prophet.

It is estimated that the Islamic conquest and rule in India may have resulted in killing of an estimated 50-80 million Hindus and other indigenous religion people. Such savagery can only be compared to the one committed by the Spaniards in the South American continent.

Posted by: sicilianeagle at September 17, 2006 8:43 PM
Comment #182142

Stephen

Who is more predictable. Those who say that there must be something wrong with a religion, a large portion of whose practioners cannot tolerate any criticism of their religion. Or, the practioners who respond with violence or threats of violence when someone says something that is perceived as an insult.

Posted by: Keith at September 17, 2006 8:44 PM
Comment #182145

Roger,

Muhammad also did not teach violence. As a matter of point, many Muslims believe that jihad is about the spiritual warfare within themselves. The extremists are the ones distorting the teachings of the Koran for the advancement of their own radical purpose. This type of thing has happened throughout history and no religion is guiltless.

Posted by: Dwayne at September 17, 2006 9:01 PM
Comment #182147

Gergle -
“My point was one of sarcasm, there are all kinds of nuts in the world. Some use religion to drape themseves in, some flags.”

Yet when the subject of Islamic extremists comes up… invariably someone *(like Gergle) tries to link that to what happens in Christianity. This is wrong on the face of it.

The extremists who are Christian usually are individuals or very small sects (and are usually peaceful until they are trapped in their compounds). And they are often denounced by mainstream Christians.

The extremists who are Islamic usually are organized and not peaceful. And they are seldom denounced by mainstream Islam.

They are different in kind and in scope and in aggression. The similarities are merely incidental.

Nuts because of religion (Islam) vs nuts who happen to be religious / patriotic, etc. Then, of course, there are just plain nuts.

Posted by: Don at September 17, 2006 9:17 PM
Comment #182151

Stephen -

“The kind of racial hatred expressed here sometimes is simply shocking, and its mistaken course to take in and of itself.”

What racial hatred? The facts speak. You haven’t given a solution.

You’ve merely criticized those who are trying to understand the Muslem mindset… people who will not accept ANY criticism of their religion and history, but who, at the same time, see nothing wrong with criticizing every other religion severely… People who see nothing wrong with cutting off your head if you support an opposing position… People who see nothing wrong with targeting innocent men, women and children. People who would be glad to separate you (Stephen) from your head.

Your solution?: “Don’t upset them.”


Posted by: Don at September 17, 2006 9:25 PM
Comment #182152

Chris,
I will back up everything I say with specific examples, and I will cite sources. Do you remember what life was like before the Bush administration? Do you remember? The idea that we should hate Muslims & that they should hate us was confined to the fringes.

How could we let Osama bin Laden win so easily and so completely?

Unlike Eric and other conservatives, I am not ready to surrender freedoms. I refuse to give in to xenophobia and fear of the other. The fringes do not represent center.

Beirut Vet,
Your moniker suggests you served. I served too. I served to protect your rights as well as mine. It grieves me to see conservatives so thoroughly terrorized by Osama bin Laden and Bush. Be assured liberals will continue to stand for our ideals. The idea of separation of church and state has served us well. Mixing religion and government has done more harm than good in places like Iran and Israel. Separation of church and state: this is the idea we need to share, to spread, to champion. Fanning the flames of a Hundred Year War with Islam is unnecessary and is the height of foolishness.

Posted by: phx8 at September 17, 2006 9:30 PM
Comment #182155

Roger,

>

I beg to differ with you, the record is clear, not only in the hatith, but also in the Koran. The mindset for spreading the faith with the sword is both implicit and explicit in both.

The mistake most of us make is understanding the concept of peace in Islam: Peace is when ALL have submitted unto Allah and his prophet. Peace is when YOU and I and EVERYONE has submitted to Islam! Until then, there is jihad.

It is true that some Muslims believe this is a spiritual struggle, but in fact, the majority of Muslims living today believe it is more than a spiritual journey, they are taught everywhere that defending and propagating the faith by any means is legal and right.

Posted by: LapuLapuMan at September 17, 2006 9:47 PM
Comment #182156

phx8 -
“I refuse to give in to xenophobia…”

You already have. You have it bad. Just look at your post.

Posted by: Don at September 17, 2006 9:59 PM
Comment #182157

Don,
“Xenophobia - an irrational fear of foreigners or strangers.”

But perhaps your fear is rational? Please share your personal examples of encounters with Muslims who have demanded you convert or die.

Posted by: phx8 at September 17, 2006 10:13 PM
Comment #182161

Eric

Your interpetation of Matthew 10 sounds like you are equating Christianity with Islam. Would you please elaborate?

Posted by: mark at September 17, 2006 10:46 PM
Comment #182162

Crazy Carl,

Why should I make the same cute quip about Muslims when Eric already did?

Posted by: ElliottBay at September 17, 2006 10:49 PM
Comment #182164

phx8:
You are mistaken if you think that I or any other conservative is ready to give up freedom. It is the conservative that will stand up and say NO to a government that wants to control every aspect of our lives, like the liberals so unabashadly champion.

Liberals do not stand for our ideals and it is they who are terrorized by radicals everywhere. It is they who just want to try and “understand” someone who is trying to kill them. They want to appease and not threaten by word or gesture when that is the only thing they understand. It is the conservative who will stand with you shoulder to shoulder and fight governments encroachment into our lives.

The problem that you and many like you face (and this may sound strange, but hear me out) is your high degree of reason and intelligence. You all feel that we can sit down with anyone and reason with them and make them understand our point of view and how they will benefit from it. because you think that who confronted with reason, would not be swayed by it. But these are not reasonable people. And you cannot make the arguement that this is just a radical sliver of islam. These out of context condemnations are coming from the heads of state of nearly every muslim and arab country. By its own definition, you cannot reason with someone who is unreasonable.

Beleive me, brother, I have seen the face of islam and it is a face that scowls and snarles at you just for being who you are. It is a face that will brighten with delight as it cuts your head off, a person that they have never met, one who has never wronged them, but wishes them nothing but the peace and freedom that we have enjoyed here.

Your words about the seperation of church and state are very good but you are preaching to the choir here, these words have no place in the discussion here, especially inferring that they are principles long abandoned. You would be better served to be preaching them to the top of your lungs where it will do some good, like in the middle east. But I think we both know the fate that would befall you there. It is not I you should rail against, it is our common enemy. If you can get them to listen, which I doubt you can, then kudos to you, my brother in arms.

Posted by: Beirut Vet at September 17, 2006 10:59 PM
Comment #182172

Beirut Vet,
Good comment. There are liberals who are pacifists. Obviously I am not a pacifist. There are conservatives who would accept wiretapping of Americans without a warrant, searches and seizures without probable cause, and I would hope true conservatives find that kind of government intrusiveness as objectionable as I do.

Understanding an enemy does not mean sympathizing or appeasing. It means addressing the underlying cause, rather than its symptoms.

Personally, I do not think terrorism and radical Islam pose enough of a threat to even be a focus of foreign policy. Unfortunately, the Bush administration does focus upon this.

With the exception of oil & natural gas, the Islamic countries of the Middle East do not possess any resources the US wants. The combined GNP of the entire region does not amount to much at all. For their own sakes, the key is to peacefully integrate them into the world, not separate them. This can be done on terms acceptable to Muslims, in a way which respects their cultures & various versions of that religion. The vision of separation is not the vision of Hezbollah or most Iraqis or most Iranians. It is a vision of Osama bin Laden. It is a vision we encourage when we denounce Islam.

But how should we accomplish this integration? Bush is right when he advocates freedom & liberty & democracy. He fails when turning to military force for sowing the seeds. It is not a question of security or military power. Our greatest tool & our true source of power comes from our culture, our economy, & our vision of international relations based upon law.

That is at the basis of my “Bush hating,” as someone else commented. There is a fundamental lack of confidence in this country and its true strength.

We will prevail. Have no doubt. Let us make sure we are bringing something good and right to the table.

Posted by: phx8 at September 17, 2006 11:53 PM
Comment #182173

Beirut Vet, so I suppose you came to Beirut with flowers in your hair and tea in your cup.

I wonder how you would have responded to a contingent of Hezzbollah arriving with machine guns and tanks in your hometown?

To All the idiots lumping all Muslims into one bowl. There are 1.3 Billion Muslims in the world. MOST of them would not hurt a fly. I personnally know quite a few in this country. For them Islam is about peace. Yes there are a few thousand nutcases out there, maybe even a million or so semi militant. In Iraq, well over 100,000 have died in our quest for “freeing” them. In Iran the Shah killed thousands in our name. Israel continues to kill hundreds with the weapons we supply. The Saudi and Kuwaiti Kings continue to suppress thousands. They are tired of being killed and robbed. We are used by their leaders as a scapegoat. In SOME intances we play into that propoganda. That’s why some hate us. Most are simply trying to feed their families and survive…just like you.

I don’t care what happens to thugs or terrorists be they American or Iraqi or Yemeni. If I could blow them up, I would. But stop the racist,bigoted attacks on Muslims. They are no different than other religious sects at various times in history.

Read a book, know something about your own religion and culture’s history before you attack others.

Eric, you’ve reached a new low in fomenting hatred, congratulations!!!

Posted by: gergle at September 17, 2006 11:54 PM
Comment #182174

It is the conservative who will stand with you shoulder to shoulder and fight governments encroachment into our lives. Posted by: Beirut Vet at September 17, 2006 10:59 PM

Now that is exactly how I would descibe our CIC and his able right-hand man. Standing with the soldiers in Iraq shoulder to shoulder…What are you smokin’ dude?

Posted by: American Idiot at September 18, 2006 12:07 AM
Comment #182175

Gergle

You can not compare muslims in this country with muslims in the middle east. Just as you can’t compare christians in this country with christians from Europe. The freedoms and ease of assimilation in this country have given us the ability to live our live and worship as we see fit, while coexisting with our neighbors.

This is not the same as in most of the muslim countries of the mideast. There is no or very little tolerance for other religions.

phx8

Your BDS is in overdrive. Somebody once said that history starts each morning to a liberal. To say that everything was wonderful before 2000 is totally rediculous. How far back do you want to go. The first attack on the World Trade Center. Bush wasn’t even a governor yet. All Bush did was pull the curtain back to reveal the evil and the hatred there.

Also you made a comment about church and state and metioned how much harm it has done in Iran and Israel. ISRAEL, what are you talking about. I know based on previous posts that you don’t care for the only democracy in the middle east, but what are you talking about.

Posted by: Keith at September 18, 2006 12:15 AM
Comment #182179

phx8:
Thank you for your comments but do you really think this problem does not warrent foreign policy attention? If it does not, why do you waste so much time on it? I wonder if you will feel the same way when Iran has a nuclear device.

gergle:
No, I did not arrive with flowers in my hair. We arrived as an international peacekeeping force that put an end to 8 years of civil war, not to mention the blood bath that the Isrealis and the Palestinians were visiting on each other 24/7. Save your war mongering tirade for someone stupid enough to believe it.

american idiot:
Your monicker says it better than I ever could. My grandfather always told me never to argue with an idiot, people will not be able to tell you apart.

Posted by: Beirut Vet at September 18, 2006 12:25 AM
Comment #182180

Keith,
Israel is not a democracy. Israel is a Jewish state. What do you think would happen if Israel/Gaza/West Bank held a free election? Do you think Israel would still be a Jewish state after a free election?

Terrorism will always be out there, Keith. It is a tactic which will typically be used by the weaker side in asymmetrical warfare. It will be the tool of choice for fringe groups for a long time to come.

The Middle East will probably continue to be weak. The question is, how do we convince them it is better to integrate, rather than withdraw? Osama bin Laden advocates a path which will lead to withdrawal. It is an anti-historical path which both you & I would agree is a bad idea.

When you look at liberals & conservatives, Republicans & Democrats, and other choices in upcoming elections, ask who will bring about peaceful integration, versus who will drive withdrawal and war. The choice is clear.

Posted by: phx8 at September 18, 2006 12:34 AM
Comment #182181

I read so much here about being in a third world war, or about Islam being evil, or this or that, and it just seems to me that many here won’t be happy until we’re doing a Normandy style invasion of the Middle East to take it over.

Is this a plan? Beat up on the Arabs until they give up on their religion, their terrorism, etc.

They call it being realistic. I call it none of my damn business until somebody starts becoming an actual threat to me. It’s a bunch of useless, reckless bluster to deal with it any other way. Send a squad of soldiers to blow away the Head Cutter, or capture and let him rot in jail for his crimes. Drop a bomb on Zarqawi, take him out of action permanently.

Put a toe tag on Bin Laden, or stick him in some deep dark hole in Supermax forever. I’ve been asking for that for five years now.

All that Bullshit about Islam and violence is just a bunch of people stirring them up into a fervor that will likely serve the purpose of the enemy better.

Watch a movie if you want that kind of bravado, read a book. Getting obsessive about stopping Islam or other stuff just distracts you from the actual security threat.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 18, 2006 12:35 AM
Comment #182183

BTW, Eric, the lefties who call Bush a nazi are as bereft of factual intelligence as righties who see treason in public critique of the government. To be accurate, lefties should say Bush is an authoritarian. That is indisputable since, Bush authors his own laws via signing orders and secret activities discovered to be in contravention of our Constitution. That would be a factual statement and defensible by definition.

It was clever of you to avoid attributing such a factual representation of Bush to the lefties.

Posted by: David R. Remer at September 18, 2006 12:44 AM
Comment #182184

phx8,

“Israel is not a democracy. Israel is a Jewish state. What do you think would happen if Israel/Gaza/West Bank held a free election? Do you think Israel would still be a Jewish state after a free election?”

What do you mean it’s not a democracy? On what do you base that? Have you ever been there?

The people in the West Bank and Gaza live the way they do not because of the Israelis, but because of themselves and their leaders. They were offered statehood and didn’t take it. They are the ones that don’t want to coexist not Israel. It’s tough for Israel when trying to make peace with people who want to kill you.

Why should there be an election with Israel/Gaza/West Bank? That’s like saying that the US should have an election with Canada and Mexico.

Posted by: Keith at September 18, 2006 12:48 AM
Comment #182190

Has anyone here considered the fact that Muslims come in all colors and from all countries? You see, back in the time when the “Nation of Islam” had a hold on the black community, in a way that it does not now, Malcom X journeyed to MECCA and found that Islam is an inclusive religion. It seems to me that to narrowly define Muslims as terrorists, or even of Middle Eastern descent, is to exclude an entire segment of the religion. I am not a Muslim. I am, in fact, a Conservative, born-again believer in the Lord (since March 5, 1983). I just thought, if “truths” were going to be discussed, maybe someone should know them.

BTW, I really have enjoyed the thread between Beruit Vet and Phx8. You both have wisdom in your position. Therein lies the issue, which position is right? I think a balance is called for. I am a Vietnam Vet’s baby. I believe, if we are going to fight, we should use all wisdom when it comes to putting a date on withdrawl. I believe we should continue to take the fight to them, instead of letting them bring it over here. You see, when 9/11 occurred, most people weren’t even aware of the tensions between us and the Middle East. No one (with the exception of the Political powers of the day) had ever heard of Bin Laden. Now, most of us know what the Bin stands for.

My point being, I’d rather send my son to fight in thier country then have to send him to defend against suicide bombers in the Mall of America, the state and county fairs, etc.

A final thought. The U.S. has always been in the business of spreading democracy and delivering people from the strangle-hold of evil. I also recall the bitterness of the French people and government, stemming from when the U.S. delivered them out of the hands of a different dictator. Same stuff, different name. Let us proceed with caution lest our help becomes an embarassment and a hinderance.

Posted by: Rose at September 18, 2006 1:46 AM
Comment #182191

ElliotBay,

Hmmmm.. so if this type of thing is OK, I could accuse all conservatives of being hate-filled troglodytes, and then if anyone gets angry and responds in kind, I could then point my finger and say, “see, I told you so”.

And you’re saying this is a hypothetical? I mean, the part where you point your finger and say, “See I told you so.” LOL

Posted by: esimonson at September 18, 2006 1:49 AM
Comment #182192

phx8:

Show me - anywhere in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, etc. - where ‘separation of church and state’ is mentioned.

You, and every other God-hating liberal would be well-served to actually READ these documents. The often-misquoted ammendment simply says Congress shall make no law abridging the rights of any religion, including Christianity.

Why are you so afraid of God, anyway?

Posted by: Larry at September 18, 2006 1:50 AM
Comment #182195

Gergle & Rose,
Good point. It is a fallacy to imagine Islam is a monolithic movement. Just as Christianity is divided into many sects, Islam is divided as well. The radicals represent a very, very small portion of the religion. They are a problem- but since the disruption of Al Qaida, there is just not enough there to warrant our obsession. Unfortunately, the Bush administration will not be able to overcome that focus.

Beirut Vet,
Iran will not be nuclear for another decade. At least two administrations will come and go between now & then. Why not be patient, grit our teeth, and see if closer contact can change their attitude? We have time to at least make the effort.

Posted by: phx8 at September 18, 2006 1:57 AM
Comment #182197

phx8:

“Why not be patient, grit our teeth, and see if closer contact can change their attitude?”

Do you REALLY believe this drivel? The wait-and-see option was tried before, by Neville Chamberlain. The ‘being patient and gritting our teeth’ ended in World War II - a conflict that could have been stopped years earlier had the powers-that-be acted when Hitler took his first country instead of sitting on their heels and burying their head in the sand.

Posted by: Larry at September 18, 2006 2:05 AM
Comment #182200

Larry,
God told me to tell you:
“Boo!”

You will just have to take that on faith. Oh. God also told me he likes me better than you. Jesus too. Shape up!

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” This is known as the Establishment Clause. It comes from the 1st Amendment.

The phrase “separation of church and state” was written by Jefferson in the Danbury Baptist Letter:

“I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.” Letter to Danbury Baptists (1802)”


Posted by: phx8 at September 18, 2006 2:10 AM
Comment #182202

phx8:

It’s nice to know we have a modern Prophet of God in our midst… I’ll try to be more reverent in the future.

The last time I checked, a letter does not constitute law. The fact that liberal judges choose to use any means necessary to promote their agenda is an atrocity to the Bill of Rights they swore to protect.

Posted by: Larry at September 18, 2006 2:16 AM
Comment #182203

Furthermore, ‘legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof’ means Christians should be allowed practice THEIR religion as well, or doesn’t that count?

Posted by: Larry at September 18, 2006 2:18 AM
Comment #182209

To all of the anti-christians:

You bring up an odd-ball here and there to compare radical Christianity to radical islam. My Lord and Savior gets bashed and spit on everyday. My religion is disrepected all over the world. When was the last time one of these nuts who claim to be a Chrisrian got paatted on the back for murder by any Christian leader? When was the last time Christians mass rioted, burned, and killed because someone insulted our religion? Your examples are lame. Is free speech only for liberals bashing Bush? 1.3 billion muslims, who amongst them is speaking up against the radicals?

Posted by: lllplus2 at September 18, 2006 3:26 AM
Comment #182211

For all the haters:

The age old thought process of peace and love being the end all of war is hogwash. There will be no peace because of two very important ideologies. A Judeo Christian worldview and an Islamic worldview.

As a Christian, I know that peace will reign when Christ returns, period, all other interpretations or suppositions of what happens before he returns is speculative, the bottom line is no peace ‘til Jesus comes back.

Islam says no peace until all convert to Islam, or they die at the hands of Islam. You can stay alive, but only as a second class person who is not really even a person - more like an object of scorn who pays a hefty tribute tax for the right to stay alive and be abused. What fun!

I’m more than willing to wait for Christ, but that waiting doesn’t entail sitting silently by singing songs ‘round the campfire and watching prayerfully as madmen behead folks for not being Muslim, for converting to another religion after first being a Muslim or for saying something offensive like, “Islamic terrorists kill innocents”.

Well meaning Christians (and non believers alike) are always saying “turn the other cheek”, love your enemy and such. Would it be possible for Christianity to survive, for the great commission of Christ to the believers to “reach out and witness to all the world that He is the Messiah” - thereby reconciling man with God - if all we do is meekly bow our heads and wait for the sword to chop it off? How does one preach the good news to all the world when he is dead?

Pray for peace, pray for your enemy, pray for Muslims the world over to wake up and eliminate the hate within their communities, by all means, but Christianity isn’t asking for martyrs, Christ filled that role once and for all. Self defense, protecting loved ones, “rendering unto Caesar the things that are Caesars and unto God the things that are Gods”, this is the calling.

As a Christian I believe I’ll go to Heaven one day, to live forever in the company of my Lord and God, but I’m not Scripturally encouraged to speed the arrival of that day (as Muslims are by murderous “Fatwahs”) by either strapping a bomb to my body and exploding it, nor by simply surrending it to a madman who demands it of me for my freedom or survival. No Christians = No Christianity or for that matter No Jews = No Judaism, No Hindus = No Hinduism, No Atheist = No Atheism. That math just does not compute to a thriving Christian community able to bear witness to the gift of Christ, or of a community of unbelievers who just want to ignore religion or God in general.

Push comes to shove, defend yourself, family, country. The ability to lovingly witness your own faith in God to those open to receive it depends on you being alive first.

My prayer? God Bless America, God Bless Israel and may the Peace of God through Jesus Christ live in the hearts of those who seek it. Amen and Amen.

Posted by: JR at September 18, 2006 4:11 AM
Comment #182212
People who would be glad to separate you (Stephen) from your head.

Don, I’m not a doctor but I really believe most of Stephen mind is not separable from his head.

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at September 18, 2006 4:32 AM
Comment #182213

Larry,

Why are you so afraid of God, anyway?

A countless people were killed in *his* name, all of names. In fact, I fear less going to void (or to Hell if it turn out I was wrong to be an atheist…) than the people doing horrible stuff in their God(s) name(s)… since forever.

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at September 18, 2006 5:08 AM
Comment #182214

Larry,

Do you REALLY believe this drivel? The wait-and-see option was tried before, by Neville Chamberlain. The ‘being patient and gritting our teeth’ ended in World War II - a conflict that could have been stopped years earlier had the powers-that-be acted when Hitler took his first country instead of sitting on their heels and burying their head in the sand.

Most historians will tell you that World War II will have still happened then, just one or two years earlier. BTW, do you included USA in the powers-that-be, because I didn’t remember US caring that much in 1937-1939 about what they considered at this time an intra-europea crisis?
I guess European powers were not alone burying their head in the sand…

Also, AFAIK, Iran didn’t attack any country yet, right? Or are you a 1% doctrine addict and think we should nuke every possible (far or not) future threating nations right now?

No wonder US nukes stockpiles are rising again…

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at September 18, 2006 5:20 AM
Comment #182215

Larry,

The fact that liberal judges choose to use any means necessary to promote their agenda is an atrocity to the Bill of Rights they swore to protect.

Swap “liberal” with “partisan” and I agree 100%.

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at September 18, 2006 5:24 AM
Comment #182216

Beirut vet and Keith,

“Beleive me, brother, I have seen the face of islam and it is a face that scowls and snarles at you just for being who you are. It is a face that will brighten with delight as it cuts your head off, a person that they have never met, one who has never wronged them, but wishes them nothing but the peace and freedom that we have enjoyed here.”

It is you who lumps all Muslims into one bowl and compares them as all equal. Look in the mirrror, brothers. By the way, what happened in Beirut? Did peace break out? Or did rockets level much of it? Yep, peacekeepers. Funny how taking sides in a civil war doesn’t produce peace. I wonder if that lesson might apply to Iraq? Naaaah!

I’m war mongering? Huh?

“Yet when the subject of Islamic extremists comes up… invariably someone *(like Gergle) tries to link that to what happens in Christianity. This is wrong on the face of it.

The extremists who are Christian usually are individuals or very small sects (and are usually peaceful until they are trapped in their compounds). And they are often denounced by mainstream Christians.

The extremists who are Islamic usually are organized and not peaceful. And they are seldom denounced by mainstream Islam.

They are different in kind and in scope and in aggression. The similarities are merely incidental.”

Don,
I’m glad you see that it is about organization. Who is it that is organizing these folks? Could it be radicals with other than religious intent? I haven’t seen billions in the streets,yet.

As a side note, in the sixties I once was at an anti war demonstration at an appearance of Nixon. The local news showed pictures of protesters on the news that evening. It looked like a big event. I was there, it was about 20 people.

What is “mainstream” Islam saying, Don? Have you listened?

I wonder, what was the scope of the crusades?

Posted by: gergle at September 18, 2006 5:40 AM
Comment #182217

JR,

… the bottom line is no peace ‘til Jesus comes back.

Oh, great. Then we don’t have to worry what we could do or not do, bad or good! One should call Kofi Annan, I think he’s after the Ultimate Peace Keeper.

Islam says no peace until all convert to Islam, or they die at the hands of Islam.

Damn, now peace “plan” is a Wait for Christ Returns vs Convert to Islam ASAP dilema.
That’s a tie.

No Christians = No Christianity or for that matter No Jews = No Judaism, No Hindus = No Hinduism, No Atheist = No Atheism.

You forgot No Gods = All Atheists!
;-)

BTW, could/will Christ returns even if every Christians are dead or converted to Islam? What a disappointment for him in such case…

My prayer? God Bless America, God Bless Israel and may the Peace of God through Jesus Christ live in the hearts of those who seek it. Amen and Amen.

Yeah, and also: Christ, dude, what the hell are you doing!? Bring your ass back on earth right NOW!

To all, please take this post as an ironic, at worst sarcastic post, nothing more. Don’t call your community to kill me on sight because, you know, I’m really nobody worthing such effort.
Plus I’m a french atheist, go figure :-p

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at September 18, 2006 5:51 AM
Comment #182218

Phillipe, Beware the freedom pommes frite.:)

Posted by: gergle at September 18, 2006 6:46 AM
Comment #182220

My Name Is Roger:

DWAYNE: I have read the Bible and Jesus said we are to [ LOVE OUR ENEMIES, BLESS THOSES WHO CURSE YOU, DO GOOD TO THOSES WHO HATE YOU, AND PRAY FOR THOSE WHO SPITEFULLY USE YOU AND PERSECUTE YOU ] MATTHEW 5:44. I am now reading the Quran, Here are a few of the teaching I have found so far.

1. SURA 4:6 Fight unbelievers
2. SURA 4:7 Kill unbelievers
3. SURA 4:8 Kill unbelievers
4. SURA 4:9 Kill unbelievers
5. SURA 5:7 Christians will burn in the fire
6. SURA 9:4 Doom to Christians and Jews

And there is more… it goes on and on and on and on and on…………………………………..

QUESTION: What do [ YOU ] think would be the reacation if a Christian [ ANY CHRISTIAN ] would get on TV and say things like that about those who are not Chrstians?

ROGER A Conservative Christian Rupublican

P.S. I do not believe we should hate or kill Muslims, but we should be aware that the Quran does teach that they [ Muslims ] should kill unbelievers.

Posted by: ROGER at September 18, 2006 7:20 AM
Comment #182222

gergle, “What is “mainstream” Islam saying, Don? Have you listened?”

The problem is “mainstream” islam, the “moderates” that most of them are, says nothing. They don’t do anything to seperate themselves from the nuts. When they dance in the streets with the nuts or are in denial or what the nuts do, what are we to think?

Posted by: lllplus2 at September 18, 2006 7:51 AM
Comment #182225

So you have an ex-Nazi (okay he quit before the war ended) telling the world that Mohammed only spread hate and death. Hmmmm.

So Christians have been so different? Indians of Peru, Mexico and Georgia would like to give you some insights on Christian love.

And where were the Christian voices when Israel was bombing Beirut over 2 hostage soldiers?

This Pope knew exactly what he was doing, he is not dumb and has handled PR for decades. It is consistent with Bush and Blair. Throw gas on the fire and divert the attention to what is really going on.

For the Catholic Church (and I am catholic) to point the finger on killing and violence is absolutely hypocritical. And to quote a Byzantine Emporer!! You would love to learn about how they treated “infidels”. Ever wondered why Islam spread so quickly in the countries under Byzantine rule? It was the cruelty and orthodoxy that drove many to Islam.

Read your history before labeling Islam.

Posted by: acetracy at September 18, 2006 8:16 AM
Comment #182226

Islamic apologist:

No matter how much Christian history you provide, it does not make what they are doing today right. Wrong in the past is wrong in the present is wrong in the future. No Christian has said wrongs done in the name of Christ were right. They were wrong just as the Islamic world is wrong for either denial of the evils of the extremist or outright support of them.

Roger, “P.S. I do not believe we should hate or kill Muslims, but we should be aware that the Quran does teach that they [ Muslims ] should kill unbelievers.”

Exactly, we are not preaching hate but awareness and personal responsibility. Quit blaming everyone else for your wrongs Islamic world and apologist. You don’t riot because of a book, a Danish newspaper, the pope, or injustices from hundreds of years ago. You riot because you think it is your right, but other people’s lives are more important than your right to seek justice your way for everything. As soon as islamic leaders start telling their people publically they are wrong for their actions, then the rest of the world will see them as peaceful.

Posted by: lllplus2 at September 18, 2006 8:33 AM
Comment #182228

I don’t know why the Pope made those comments - perhaps to stir up trouble or, maybe, to allow muslims to prove his point. Either way, Roger is correct in that the Koran instructs Muslims to kill unbelievers.

What’s missing in this debate is an analysis of the fundamental beliefs of Islam and Christianity.

According to Mr. David E. Pratte, in his study “Islam or Christianity?,Jesus or Mohammed?, Christian Gospel or Muslim Koran?”,

“Muslims make many claims for Islam, but there is no real proof that Islam is true. Anyone can make claims. Proving them is another matter.

Christians accept Jesus and His gospel, but reject Mohammed and Islam, on the basis of proof. The evidence is that:

* Jesus was sinless but Mohammed committed sin.

* Jesus fulfilled many Old Testament prophecies, but Muslims cannot prove Mohammed ever fulfilled any.

* Jesus made predictions of the future that came true, but Mohammed made none that were fulfilled and at least one that failed.

* Jesus performed miracles as attested by eyewitnesses, but there is no eyewitness proof that Mohammed ever did any miracle.

* Jesus arose from the dead as attested by witnesses, but Muslims do not even claim that Mohammed arose.

* Jesus’ teaching agrees with itself, but the teachings of Mohammed contradict themselves.

* Jesus’ teachings harmonize with, and His claims are substantiated by, all Divine revelation that went before Him. He and His followers never discredit previous revelation. Mohammed’s teachings are not substantiated by prior revelation but contradict it, so Muslims repeatedly discredit prior revelations, while still claiming that those revelations were from God.

The evidence proves, not just that Mohammed was not a prophet like Jesus, but that in fact Mohammed was not a true prophet of God at all. His teaching bears none of the proofs of true prophetic teaching, but it does bear all the earmarks of being the work of a false prophet. (Matthew 7:15-23; 15:14; 2 Corinthians 11:13-15; 1 Timothy 4:1-3; Acts 20:28-30; 1 John 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:2-4; Titus 1:9-14; 2 John 9-11; Romans 16:17,18; Galatians 1:6-9; 2 Peter chap. 2)

Philippians 2:9-11 - Jesus has a name that is above every name. To Him every knee will bow and every tongue confess. It follows that Jesus is greater than Mohammed and someday every Muslim will confess it. Everyone ought to confess it now while they have the opportunity to be saved.”

Violence is never the answer - Christians have committed this sin and so have Muslims. You cannot force true conversion under threat of death. In time, we will all know truth regarding Islam.

Posted by: mac6115cd at September 18, 2006 8:49 AM
Comment #182230

phx8 the answer to your first post is.YES YES YES YES and yes.

Posted by: kcmike at September 18, 2006 9:04 AM
Comment #182238

Boy people need to read and understand history. Chamberlain and and others like Russia the USA used that time to build up there forces. They knew they could not take on the nazi’s with the forces they had after the draw down from WW1.

Posted by: Jeff at September 18, 2006 9:42 AM
Comment #182240

lllpus2,

You say mainstream Muslims say nothing, but I wonder does the Media focus on moderation or extremism? What gets them more readers and viewers? Do you accept American press as truth? Do you think and explore opinions that might be different from what American culture is promoting?

Often, people see what they want to see. Are we being led into war?

Posted by: gergle at September 18, 2006 9:46 AM
Comment #182242

Gergle -
“What is “mainstream” Islam saying, Don? Have you listened?”

Yes. They are saying nothing. They are not condemning the jihadists. They are not condemning the suicide bombers. They are not saying anything.

“I wonder, what was the scope of the crusades?”
The Crusades? Are you serious??? The last crusade ended in the year 1291. There haven’t been any since. Wow!, you’re really reaching to make Christianity equal with Islamic jihadists.

You have to go back 715 years? I can point to just about any year since then to show the differences and the brutality of Islamic “factions.” So show me the brutality. Where is it? In the Christian world or in the Islamic world?

Posted by: Don at September 18, 2006 10:01 AM
Comment #182243

Mac6115cd,

Thanks for the scripture, but I’m an atheist. I don’t believe in invisible dieties. I don’t believe Mohammed or Jesus were prophets or holy. They were religious leaders in times of unrest.If you believe one nutty thing , you’re just as likely to believe another, in my opinion.

Violence IS sometimes the answer. If someone is beating you to death, violence is the only answer.

Killing Bin Laden and his cohorts makes a great deal of sense to me.

Invading Iraq was just dumb, unless your wealthy, profiting from the war boom, or using it to stir your political base, and never have to worry about your kin dying there, in my opinion.

Your beliefs are just as nutty as Muslim beliefs, to me.

Posted by: gergle at September 18, 2006 10:01 AM
Comment #182245

Don, read my response and link to CAIR to lllplus2, and tell me again they are saying nothing.

Confusing your lack of looking or Media bias for silence is absurd.

I can point to any year and say Christians killed also…say…Serbia? Nuts are nuts as you said. There is not a concentration of them in one part of the world.

Posted by: gergle at September 18, 2006 10:08 AM
Comment #182246

Whether their were actually WMD’s will always be the question on everyone’s lips, but we should stop and think about what Dale G said earlier about the war in IRAQ:

-“I mean,
who cares if dictators thrive and democracy dies?
Who cares if their populace used to die if they
expressed their outrage over one of the many
Saddam atrocities? Free speech is only good for
free countries…right?”

The US has always fought for freedom and democracy and against tyrannical leadership(WWII, Vietnam etc). This is who we are. Why is everyone so shocked? My best friend’s husband is in the army and in IRAQ right now and she sends me pics of the soldiers with the Iraqi people and it shows all the positive things they are doing. These pictures never make it to the news. I wonder why?

I always wonder when I hear all the “liberal speak” about hating our country and it’s policies “If you don’t like this wonderful free country that we live in, then leave.” Believe me, we wouldn’t miss you.

Posted by: Becky at September 18, 2006 10:17 AM
Comment #182247

By the way….which Islamic group is claiming responsibility for killing the Nun? Was it Muslims or Christians who killed Nuns in El Salvadore?

Posted by: gergle at September 18, 2006 10:22 AM
Comment #182249

Love it or leave it…Becky were you here during Vietnam? If not, please stop stealing rhetoric from the 60’s.

Seems you and Beirut vet don’t agree on those snarling Muslims…..

Posted by: gergle at September 18, 2006 10:26 AM
Comment #182254

Becky,

I understand the desire of those paying a price for war, to not want to believe that their leaders lie to them. Often we long for the good old days of youth when we weren’t aware of such duplicity. Sadly, they don’t exist.

Perhaps you could do some reading to understand the real issues in Vietnam and Iraq, Ill leave WWII for a different discussion.

Posted by: gergle at September 18, 2006 10:42 AM
Comment #182258
Boy people need to read and understand history. Chamberlain and and others like Russia the USA used that time to build up there forces. They knew they could not take on the nazi’s with the forces they had after the draw down from WW1.

Thanks Jeff, that’s an important historic point to keep in memory, indeed. It’s a commonly wrong myth that during the Chamberlain apeasement period europeans collectively crossed theirs fingers and did nothing regarding their military capabilities.

It was far to be enough. Too much too late, no doubt.

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at September 18, 2006 11:05 AM
Comment #182259

So, it’s ok to riot and kill a nun in retalliation to “remarks” about Islam?! Ok, so if we apply that logic to the West, then there’s plenty of bloggers (especially on this site) that would be in trouble for all the comments about Christianity. Yet, you don’t have to worry about that b/c the Christians and Jews (today) don’t act like animals as today’s muslims do. So, keep up your hate and disgust for Christianity; it’s not going to get you anywhere, though it will expose who you are and what you truly believe. So, keep it up!


Posted by: rahdigly at September 18, 2006 11:06 AM
Comment #182260

gergle:

If you truly are an atheist, then you are in the vast minority of people. That alone makes you neither right nor wrong, of course, but simply puts you in a rather small percentage of people who believe in no higher being.

Violence in the name of self-defense is acceptable, in my opinion, so I agree with you there. The way Muslims have acted in violence in regard to the Mohammed cartoons, and now potentially to the Pope’s comments are indefensible. These are not acts of self-defense.

Rather than call people who have a faith “nutty”, you might do well to better understand their faith, and their rationale behind it. Perhaps you have—-and if so, my congratulations to you for doing so. But I suspect from your comments that you have only a baseline knowledge.

Interesting thing about your thought of Jesus as just a religious leader. He said he was the Son of God and Roman history shows that a man named Jesus was crucified for having said that. I see 3 alternatives out of that statement: A) He was crazy and died for a crazy belief B) He was a con artist (a televangelist before TV), but didn’t recant and was put to death C) He told the truth, and died for it.

Most crazies lose it at some point, but there is no historical record of Jesus losing it. Most con artists give up the game at some point, but Jesus never did. Leaves me with C as my final answer.

Bottom line though: Just because someone has faith, and you don’t, does not make them “nutty”. No more so than you being nutty for being in the vast minority on the issue. Different people think differently. I happen to believe you are wrong in your conclusions, yet you are free to believe as you do. You probably think the same about my conclusions. That we disagree makes neither of us “nutty”.

We both could be nutty, but not for that reason

Posted by: joebagodonuts at September 18, 2006 11:10 AM
Comment #182261

Don,

So show me the brutality. Where is it? In the Christian world or in the Islamic world?

In the World. No needs to put religions in the mix, really, and no religion have exclusivity on being the most brutal or peacefull one.


Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at September 18, 2006 11:14 AM
Comment #182262

gergle,

I read your link. Are you trying to say the liberal mainstream media, yes that is redundant, fueling all of the hate? The article said nothing about the “unfortunate episode” being wrong. It talks a lot about increased dialogue. We don’t need increased dialogue to appease their hurt feelings. They need to get over themselves and stop killing people. Didn’t you see the Christians on the news rioting at ABC studios and bombing Disney?

Posted by: lllplus2 at September 18, 2006 11:18 AM
Comment #182265

Philippe,
“and no religion have exclusivity on being the most brutal or peacefull one.”


Yes they do! The muslims have been the problem and they must be dealt with. Now, instead of running and burying your head in the sand, or ducking the topic by blaming it on other religions, you could (actually) give a solution to the muslim’s “intolerant” religion. How should this be handled?

Posted by: rahdigly at September 18, 2006 11:27 AM
Comment #182267

Philippe

Look around the world, if you see an armed conflict of which I belive there are 17 or 18 ongoing, you will see that in the overwhelming majority muslims are involved.

Posted by: Keith at September 18, 2006 11:44 AM
Comment #182270

gergle, I may be “nutty”, but not for my beliefs. I can honestly say I am a better person for my faith and it is a faith based on researching the facts.

Violence is never the answer when it comes to defending your beliefs unless your religion is based on hatred and violence. And it will never achieve conversion, if converting an unbeliver is your goal.

Even though I am sure you don’t want (or need) my sympathy, I am truly sorry you are an atheist. To live your life believing that this is as good as life gets, has got to be depressing.

Don’t let the misguided actions of some “believers” drive you to atheism. Rather, seek out the facts and come to a logical conclusion. joebagodonuts is right concerning Jesus. An intelligent analysis will lead to one conclusion: Jesus is who He said He is.

Posted by: mac6115cd at September 18, 2006 11:54 AM
Comment #182271

Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn ‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

That’s about as violent as the gospels get, I think…

Posted by: Michael Gill at September 18, 2006 11:56 AM
Comment #182273

lllplus2,

No, I was refering to the Right Wing mainstream media that fired Koppel and Rather and is owned by right wingers like Murdoch. Thanks for the Rush pablum. Actually, the MSM is mostly interested in Money not idealology.

Umm, what episode? Aren’t Muslims allowed to voice their opinions? Most of them think rioting is foolish. The pope’s message while esconced in talk of rationality, sounded derogatory of Mohammed to me.But then I think religion is irrational by nature.

Are you refering to the Nun? Who killed a Nun? Do you have info that it was a Muslim? Of course in Somalia there are only Muslims, not Warlords or anything.

I didn’t see the Christian rioting, just Christians advocating war against a religious group whether guilty or not, that doesn’t believe as they do. Im so glad they aren’t violent, just warlike.


Rahdigly,

Are you suggesting a “final solution”? Good Job.

Posted by: gergle at September 18, 2006 12:04 PM
Comment #182276

mac6115cd,

—- Violence is never the answer when it comes to defending your beliefs —-

I’m with you all the way on that statement. Violence tends to turn people away from those kinds of beliefs.

But you also said your faith is based on facts. WHAT? If something is a fact, it can’t be faith. Faith is belief in what cannot be proved, facts need no belief, they are proof. If you had proof of your faith, it wouldn’t be faith. Those are two seperate ideas.

And please never use circular logic to say your faith is “true”, it makes no sense. “Jesus is who He said He is.” is as rational as saying “I and God because I say I am.”

Neither Athiests or Christians are wrong in the beliefs, if it is what they hearts and minds have concluded based on the information provided. Some say Christians are just brainwashed by the parents and leaders, but you can also say that of Athiests. If you are following what your heart and mind tell you, then you not wrong in your faith. It is only wrong to have faith because everyone else is doing it and you are just following the crowd when your heart and mind is telling you it’s wrong. We are not sheep, we don’t need shepards, we need mentors.

Life on earth is wonderful. To put this life in a cage, believing that a fantasy world awaits, if you just restrain your natural God-given instincts during your life has got to be the most depressing thing about succumbing to religious ideology. There is spiritual awareness that is blocked by the blindness of religion. When you achieve this awareness, your will no longer have any doubt about faith.

Posted by: mem beth at September 18, 2006 12:27 PM
Comment #182277

Joebagodonuts,

Well, I’m just being a bit radical in response to some of the posts here, as I do believe in fighting back. A lot of my friends, who believe in God, are not nuts, just a little misguided.

Actually, Jesus may have said he was the Son of Man which was a common expression in the Essenes. Sadly, the King James version of the Bible is a highly edited and revised version of the original “Gospels” and not real reliable.

I’m not so sure that I am in as big a minority as some believe. We live in a culture that punishes you for being different, or atheistic. It does not surprise me that many who have doubts do not express them out loud. I avoided saying so in my younger years.

lllplus2,

Depression is a psychological condition related to hormones, moods and real life situations. It has little to do with belief in God, though many seek God in times of dispair. It does help many deal with this disease.

I have never believed. My father never teased me with the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus, either. I don’t need a reward for doing good, it is it’s own reward. This doesn’t mean I don’t have spiritual feelings, we all do. I believe it’s a consequence of consciousness and a conscience that you are taught when you are socialized.

I hope it doesn’t suck too bad for you, when you find out this is the only life you get. I try to enjoy the one I’ve got. I enjoy intellectual debate, which is why I post here.

Posted by: gergle at September 18, 2006 12:28 PM
Comment #182278

Keith,

Look around the world, if you see an armed conflict of which I belive there are 17 or 18 ongoing, you will see that in the overwhelming majority muslims are involved.

How many are muslims vs muslims only?
How many were started by muslims?
How many non-muslims are involved in?

Check for youself:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0904550.html

With 1.3 billions of muslims, about 1/5 of world population, it’s no surprise muslims are involved in some of the current conflicts. So does christians. And jews. And hindus. And buddhists.

You don’t need the religion, whatever religion, to have armed conflicts worldwide. Oh, sure, it helps greatly. But energy war is not fueled (pun intended) by religion, neither economic war. Greed and selfiness does. And we’re currently fighting both of these laters.

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at September 18, 2006 12:31 PM
Comment #182279

I believe the wars of the past were successful b/c we instilled our society with hate for those we were attacking. How can we win a war if we are preaching tolerance, acceptance and understanding to the same people we are trying to protect ourselves from? It doesn’t make any sense! I watched the green hooligans on dvd the other night and at one point they were getting ready to get in a fight. One of the guys had never fought before and his friend told him just think about someone you hate. If we don’t instill a level of hate and fear into the American people we can’t succeed. I don’t think anyone tried to understand the Nazis or be careful to not provoke them in fear of retribution. We went after them with alll the hate we could muster and overcame! Although many would think that are way of thinking today is more civilized, that exact kind of thinking could cost us our civilization.

Posted by: Jennifer at September 18, 2006 12:32 PM
Comment #182280

oopa sorry my response above should be to mac6115cd not lllplus2.

Posted by: gergle at September 18, 2006 12:32 PM
Comment #182281

My own view is, even after 9/11, I wanted to think that the majority of Muslims are peace-loving folk. But it’s getting harder to cling to that idea. Maybe the real problem is that so many Muslims are illiterate, and they tend to believe the nonsense spewed by their leaders about the Quran; of course, we all know that the unread masses are being lied to by these leaders, who have their own agendas. The terrorists are mostly people who are allowing themselves to be used because they don’t know better.

Posted by: Dan Cochran at September 18, 2006 12:35 PM
Comment #182282

Dan C,

I’m a bit confused. Are you refering to third world Islam or American Bush supporters?

Posted by: Dave1-20-09 at September 18, 2006 12:40 PM
Comment #182283

mac6115cd,

Even though I am sure you don’t want (or need) my sympathy, I am truly sorry you are an atheist. To live your life believing that this is as good as life gets, has got to be depressing.

No more than living your life believing in a God that let all these horrors happens in His Name, like He could not care less.

See, no more no less.

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at September 18, 2006 12:44 PM
Comment #182284

Jennifer,

I get the impression you are very young. I would first remind you that the Hooligans Movie is just that, some writer’s fantasy, not reality.

You are right that in a fight using hatred can motivate you. The Military uses this in training for combat.

Prior to the U.S. entering WWII there were many appeasers to Hitler. It is part of how he rose to a world power. Henry Ford actually advocated Hitler’s ideas.

Unfortunately, hatred nor goodness will win a war. Although it could be said our goodness, and tolerance resulted in many intellectuals fleeing to our country, which led to us developing the Atomic bomb before Hitler did, even though much of the physics research started in Germany.

One also has to consider our manufacturing base and natural resources as contributing to our victory. Hitler’s faulty strategy also contributed.

I think it is admirable that you are thinking about these issues, and welcome to Watchblog.

Posted by: gergle at September 18, 2006 12:47 PM
Comment #182285

Jennifer,

How can we win a war if we are preaching tolerance, acceptance and understanding to the same people we are trying to protect ourselves from? It doesn’t make any sense!

You’re right. These are the way to win lasting peace, not war.

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at September 18, 2006 12:49 PM
Comment #182288

Phillipe Houdin,

Great link, Thanks!

Posted by: gergle at September 18, 2006 12:55 PM
Comment #182294

Gergle,
“Are you suggesting a “final solution”? Good Job.”

I’m just looking to hear “a” solution. And, the pro-muslim bloggers have yet to suggest one. All I’ve heard thus far was that “Christians have been brutal”, “GWB and the Pope are a problem”, or “it’s only a few thousand muslims (out of the millions) that are out of hand”. Yet, no real dialogue or solution to how to handle it; just criticisms and changing the subject. What’s a matter, don’t you guys have all the (correct) answers to everything?!!

Posted by: rahdigly at September 18, 2006 1:28 PM
Comment #182296

rahdigly,

Thanks for further proof that there is no difference between Republican (FREC) rhetoric and that of the “islamofascist”.

Posted by: Dave1-20-09 at September 18, 2006 1:36 PM
Comment #182299

Dave,

No, thank you. You proved that people (still) haven’t answered the question of what the solution is; unless (of course) you consider attacking Christians and conservatives as a solution.


Posted by: rahdigly at September 18, 2006 1:47 PM
Comment #182303

Rahdigly,

Actually, I thought it was the right that had all the answers.

You are the one saying this must be dealt with, so how?

I will say this. We need to deal with Bin Laden.He is the one who attacked us and he has been given sanctuary in Pakistan, if we are to believe the press. It is sad that our government has gotten so lost on it’s original goal.

As to Iraq, Pat Buchannan addresses this in a way I agree with. He doesn’t offer a solution, just options, which grow more limited every day.

As to Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Sudan ….Indonesia I’m not convinced we need to “deal” with these Muslims. What do you suggest?

Posted by: gergle at September 18, 2006 1:58 PM
Comment #182306


Fascinating article in the LA Times called:

Head-in-the-Sand Liberals

By Sam Harris
And this guy is a professed liberal…


LA Times

Posted by: Cliff at September 18, 2006 2:02 PM
Comment #182308

Gergle,
“Actually, I thought it was the right that had all the answers.”

Apparently they do seeing how the anti-right (on this blog) haven’t answered a simple question.


“I will say this. We need to deal with Bin Laden.”


Ok, so capturing (or killing) Bin Laden would ease the tensions in the muslim world over the Pope’s comments?!!


“As to Iraq, Pat Buchannan addresses this in a way I agree with. He doesn’t offer a solution, just options, which grow more limited every day.”

I wish the anti-war/Bush crowd would take after Buchannan in the way he “disagrees” with the war; he doesn’t try to intimidate or use slander towards the Prez to get his point across, he “respectfully” disagrees.


“You are the one saying this must be dealt with, so how?”


Only when I hear an actual solution first, then I will participate.

Posted by: rahdigly at September 18, 2006 2:10 PM
Comment #182309

Cliff, he sounds like a half bright, fadist promoting a book to me……

Posted by: gergle at September 18, 2006 2:12 PM
Comment #182311

Rahdigly,

Great slander of the left while copping out. Seems to me you can’t answer a simple question, either. I think I did.

As to the pope….I don’t fear protesters or threats. Salman Rushdie is still around isn’t he?

There are enough boogeymen in the world without creating them.

Posted by: gergle at September 18, 2006 2:19 PM
Comment #182312

Qur’an 9:5: Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them.

Qur’an 8:39: Fight them until all opposition ends and all will submit to allah.

Ishaq 324: Fight them so that there is no more rebellion. Allah must not have rivals.

It does not get much clearer than that. Anyone need those passages translated?

Posted by: nikkolai at September 18, 2006 2:22 PM
Comment #182316

Yes I am young but not THAT young (unfortunately) and I am a firm believer in the whole it’s a movie thing I was refrencing the quote on anger not really the movie itself. There is so much that goes into our motives for war and honestly as much as any of us read about war present or past we’ll never know the entire truth. I think we need to trust and RESPECT our leaders even if we disagree and be vigilent in our quest for knowledge. I fear for the pope and even as a Roman Catholic he kinda creeps me out- the way he looks I don’t know he sends me a weird vibe. I am not saying he was wrong in what he said in some ways I am sure if it weren’t for Liberal media it would have been a non-issue. Honestly, I am slowly beginning to think the world has gotten too small for our own good. Sometimes it’s better to not know how the other side of the world is living. At least in the case of other countries hating our way of life and freedoms. I love reading this site- It is a great learning tool for me.

Posted by: Jennifer at September 18, 2006 2:40 PM
Comment #182318

Rahdigly,

I do not claim demi-god status who can acurrately predict the future. I guess you are of higher order than I, since you now claim to “know” a solution.

Please, oh noble one, grace us with your great and wonderous knowledge.

I will make these predictions. Iraq will continue to erode until 2008. The next administration will call up the draft, due to the expansion of the Iraqi war into neighboring nations or the decision to actually contain this mess. Expect a force of 500,000.

If a withdrawal is made due to unforseen circumstances, Iraq will spin out of control and erupt into a major middle east war in which we will have to intervene at great cost of life and treasure. Expect a larger force.

I sure as hell hope I’m dead wrong

All thanks to GW’s mismanagment. The CEO, my ass.

Nikkolai,
Read this and then tell me all about the Quran. Your understanding is as limited as those that use it to justify killing.

Posted by: gergle at September 18, 2006 2:48 PM
Comment #182319

Jennifer,
A word about respect. Respecting a position does not require absolute obedience to the person. Respect is earned. My issue is trust with Bush. Like Reagan said, “trust, but verify”. When in the presence of a liar, respect has not been earned. No one deserves blind faith, especially in a democracy.

Posted by: gergle at September 18, 2006 2:57 PM
Comment #182320

Gergle,
“I guess you are of higher order than I, since you now claim to “know” a solution.”


I’m of no “higher order”; I just (actually) have an opinion to voice a solution. You continue to dodge the question: What is your opinion on the Pope situation? Who do you think is responsible and what should the punishment be?


“Your understanding is as limited as those that use it to justify killing.”


Your link clearly stated: “Islam calls for peace once oppression ends”, so as long as they feel oppressed, they are justified. Those muslims are protesting the pope, they feel he has oppressed them and their “religion”, so it’s ok (according to the koran).


The fact is, Nikkolai made specific quotes from the koran and you tried to bash him with out of context facts. Read it again and you will see that you are wrong.


Posted by: rahdigly at September 18, 2006 3:03 PM
Comment #182322

My Name Is Roger:

JENNIFER: You said you did not think that anyone tried to understand the Nazis or to be careful not to provoke them.

You need to read [ MIEN KAMPF ], if you to understand the Nazis.

Hitler wrote the book around 1923 while he was in jail for trying to seize power over the German.
government.

Between 1925 and 1929 no one took him or his book seriously untill January 30, 1933 when he became Chancellor of Germany.

Between January 30, 1933 and June 30, 1934 Hitler carried out a radical revolution that placed the police and the power of the state under his control.

In August of 1934 the President of Germany died and Hitler became the dictator of Germany.

In August of 1938 he took over Austria and Chechoslovakia

In 1939 Hitler invaded Poland

Now people began to take him seriously, now they began to read his book to try to understand and find out what he was wanting to do, bu… by then it was too late.

Between 1939 and 1945 he killed millions of people, none of whom had provoked him or the Nazis.

Lets not make the same mistake again, if you get a chance buy a copy of the Quran, and read it to find out what Mohamed wrote and what it teached the Muslems

Posted by: ROGER at September 18, 2006 3:09 PM
Comment #182323

Gergle,
Good point, but what are our choices, live in fear of those in power of our own country? Mutiny? Revolution? It is frightening quite honestly. I think we are living in a pivetable point in history, I don’t know the right man for the job. The politics game has clouded the position. We no longer have people in a decision making roll that can get the job they intended to do done for fear of their political future. I am always saying we need people in gov’t who aren’t politicians to run for office, but inevitably to survive in that environment they all end up being politicians whethere they started out as one or not. IN the end we are always voting on the best of the worst anymore. I will say I think this war could be the end of us if we don’t remain vigiliant. Regardless of the reason we ended up there, were there now, we HAVE to finish the job and be VICTORIOUS.

Posted by: Jennifer at September 18, 2006 3:10 PM
Comment #182324

Anyone who would believe an angel told me to write a book is a fool!

Posted by: Michael Bonacci at September 18, 2006 3:18 PM
Comment #182325

Roger-
Thanks for the book tip, I try to educate myself on history, like most people I didn’t care too much about it when I was learning it in school. It is unbelievable how much more I know than most of my friends and I openly admit I know VERY LITTLE. I am here to learn! My thought is it’s not so much understanding the enemy persay as it is to sympathize with them. Our bleeding hears are going to cause us to bleed to death as a nation. Using our understanding as a profiling tool at war is one thing but to use it to create this attitude of “oh the poor muslims, I’d fly a plane into a big US building too.” isn’t good at all.

I AM NOT IMPLYING THAT ANYONE FEELS THIS WAY I AM ONLY USING A HYPOTHETICAL :)

Posted by: Jennifer at September 18, 2006 3:19 PM
Comment #182327

Eric,

Great point about the battered wife situation. I would use that analogy when it comes to the argument of calling the enemy “Islamofascists”. It was argued that the President shouldn’t use that term, b/c it suggests that all of islam are fascists. Well, with that rationale, you could say the same thing for “spousal abuse”; that would be saying that all spouses abuse their spouse. Whatever! See how ridiculous that is?!

They are Islamofascists and that’s a fact!!


Roger,
“Lets not make the same mistake again, if you get a chance buy a copy of the Quran, and read it to find out what Mohamed wrote and what it teached the Muslems”

Nikkolai is way ahead of you, care to debate the teachings of the koran?!!


“Qur’an 9:5: Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them.

Qur’an 8:39: Fight them until all opposition ends and all will submit to allah.

Ishaq 324: Fight them so that there is no more rebellion. Allah must not have rivals.

It does not get much clearer than that. Anyone need those passages translated?

Posted by nikkolai at September 18, 2006 02:22 PM”

Posted by: rahdigly at September 18, 2006 3:22 PM
Comment #182334

Eric - Good post, I cannot argue with your logic and reasoning until you started quoting scripture. When you use scripture, all reason is lost.

I can take that biblical quote and use it to justify violence to whatever ends I want. In Leviticus we can find quotes to justify killing at the same level of the Koran.


We must keep religion (our religion) out of this war on terrorism. We do not need religion to justify our fight against them. We must avoid any perception or reality of a cursade.

Posted by: Stefano at September 18, 2006 3:50 PM
Comment #182335

gergle: I don’t want to generalize or group all muslims as jihdists. They are most clearly not. I work with a Swiss muslim who is as classy a guy as one will ever meet. I do believe the wahabbi sect is a sub-cult (and there are others)that thrives on jihad. It would be hard to estimate the true number of jihadists, both active and passive. But I don’t think 5-10% would be out of line. Do the math—that’s millions and millions of militants.

Posted by: nikkolai at September 18, 2006 3:52 PM
Comment #182353

membeth:

If something is a fact, it can’t be faith. Faith is belief in what cannot be proved, facts need no belief, they are proof. If you had proof of your faith, it wouldn’t be faith. Those are two seperate ideas.

The proper way to look at a belief in Christ, in my opinion, is to consider that fact can take you much of the way, but not the whole way. There are many things that can be proven to support the claims of the Bible, but there is no absolute proof. At some point, you have to take a leap of faith. Maybe fact takes you 99% of the way, perhaps 5% of the way, but in the end, faith is a requirement in order to believe in a God whose existence can neither be proven nor disproven.

gergle:

By all manners of polling etc., atheists are in the vast minority. Consider that anyone who claims to be part of a religion (Islam, Hindu, Christian etc) has a belief in a higher power or deity. They may disagree on who that deity is, but they believe in one.

Those who believe in nothing (atheism) are in the vastest of minorities, even if you included a factor for those who don’t publicly state their belief in no deity.

Posted by: joebagodonuts at September 18, 2006 4:23 PM
Comment #182368

The Catholic Church has changed with the election of Pope Benedict, and with that change has come a differing of ideals. The Pope may or may not have intentionally used those words to offend the Muslim nation, but either way he apologized, and you have to remember that the Muslims and Christians are not exactly friends. Despite all of this “same God” talk, the Christians and Muslims are not on the same page. The Pope apologized and thats that. Who is to really know if he was sinceare, and so what if he wasn’t? Its not like the Muslims are shouting out “We love Catholics” either.

Posted by: Dahlia at September 18, 2006 4:59 PM
Comment #182378

Rahdigly,

I addressed the “pope issue”. I’ll say it more clearly to you. There is no issue. The pope is responsible for his words and the rioters are responsible for their actions. I don’t deem my self supreme punisher, as you seem to want someone to be. There will be noise and it will dissipate.

As to my response to Nikkolai, the CAIR site discusses the text of the Quran. It is to be taken in context, not isolating single lines, as you have done. As I stated I’m an atheist and think ALL this is complete bullshit. Stefano responded to this argument by stating that the Bible is also filled with violent decrees. I know from Muslim friends that most Muslim don’t agree with Nikkolai’s disembodied quotes. That is “Islamofacism” in reverse. To me, it’s all about whose pile of B.S.is stacked higher.

Glad to see your still ducking my questions. Don’t bother to make a stand, it might expose you to criticism.

Jennifer,

There are those who want to work you into a fervor. They get what they want by doing so. It isn’t the end of the world or even close to it. I’m 50 and have heard that since I was 5. I’m not minimizing the middle east situation, just don’t get too excited by the rhetoric.

Nikkolai,
You’re on the right track, but I think you overestimate the radicals. I think many are truly angry at the west, but most simply express dissaproval. Few will actually resort to violence. The overwhelming majority are just trying to feed their families, like us. One car thief can create a crime wave in a neighborhood.

Joebagodonuts: I agree.


Posted by: gergle at September 18, 2006 5:33 PM
Comment #182380

“…Invade their countries; occupy them; bomb them; steal their resources; draw national borders to make the stealing easier; install puppet governments; prop up authoritarian leaders; and kill Muslim men, women, and children who resist.”

America has recieved no Oil from Iraq! show me where we did this.
We are installing “puppets”? Where did all the Afgan and Iraqi voters come from??

It is a total myth that we supported or armed Osama. We gave Iraq money because they were fighting the Mullahs of Iran. We gave the Mojahdin money because the were fighting the Russians - both were done through Congess, not on Bush’s orders or even any other president. Whe congess saw fit to pull funding they did.
By the way since when did the Pope need Jewish instigation or Bush’s oil money? He spoke his mind, he refered to history — TOUGH — he has a right to speak his mind and he was chosen for his scholarship and piety, in the Roman Church’s way. Don’t like it - well if you are not RC you got no voice.
K

Posted by: kuzriel at September 18, 2006 5:36 PM
Comment #182381

Jennifer,

I think we need to trust and RESPECT our leaders

I think our leaders should win our trust and respect. The already had gain some trust and respect when we elected them. It’s they turn to show they deserve this initial trust. They did promises during the election campaign, they have to keep them. Otherwise when elected we will be giving them way too much free hands for a democracy.

Remember: by the people, for the people. In democracy, leaders owns everything to the people. Trust and respect included.

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at September 18, 2006 5:37 PM
Comment #182387

Gergle,
I promise you I’m not freaking out just trying to be aware. I think that in the 45 years you have heard it was the end of the world it probably was a very real possiblity. We have been fortunate enough to evade that fate with strategy, good leadership and a little luck. We are always a heartbeat away from the end, not to be all doom and gloom but it’s the truth. My concern is how does one choose the BEST leaders that DEREVE our TRUST and can continue to lead us in a way that keeps us “dodging the bullet” so to speak. We are a powerhouse and there are many wanting to see us fall, not just the Middle East. I don’t think China is so crazy about us either. I guess what I am saying is that as an American citizen the most important thing I can do is make an informed vote for local, state and federal positions. I WANT TO KNOW HOW TO DO THAT, How do we see past the BS? Remember: I COME HERE TO LEARN FROM ALL OF YOU WISE ONES ;)And

Phillipe~ The core to politics is to make promises and not keep them, Trust Me I live in OHIO what a mess we are. That’s one thing we can say about Bush he said it would be a long uphill battle in Iraq and he wasn’t leaving til we won. So far he’s kept his word on that one.

Posted by: Jennifer at September 18, 2006 6:07 PM
Comment #182392

My Name Is Roger:

RAHDIGLY:

The verses I listed were taken out of the Quran, if you go up to 7:10 I have the referance that came from the Quran.

I do have a copy and I do read it, it is is from the Quran that I gave the referance.

ROGER A Conservative Christian Rupublican

Posted by: ROGER at September 18, 2006 6:21 PM
Comment #182394
The core to politics is to make promises and not keep them, Trust Me I live in OHIO what a mess we are.

My point, exactly. Leaders misbehaviors are too much wellknown to give them blind trust and respect. They’ve to win it, everyday. It’s not a given.

That’s one thing we can say about Bush he said it would be a long uphill battle in Iraq and he wasn’t leaving til we won. So far he’s kept his word on that one.

IIRC he first said along Rumsheld it will be a short war. Before, he even said he knows were WMDs are. Before that, he had said he know Iraq was an iminente threat. Each time he said “believe me”.

Maybe I see the half empty glass, while you try to see the half fill one.
But mine have more american and iraqi than terrorists blood in it. What about yours?

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at September 18, 2006 6:24 PM
Comment #182397

This goes back to what I said earlier this World has just gotten too small for all of us. People not tolerating the differences in each other is no new story, the little bit of history I know can tell us that. There is no easy answer for this and I notice we can all agree with that. It’s like anything else, the actions of a few ruins it for everyone else. In this instance it is in the form of Collateral damage.

Oh- and as far as the glass 1/2 full- I have 3 young sons I have to think 1/2 full. Aside from that, I know first hand that people are inherently good, whenever I get down on the human race something happens that reaffirms that to me. We are a good people and let’s hope that will see us through.

Jennifer (usa cheerleader :))

Posted by: Jennifer at September 18, 2006 6:37 PM
Comment #182429

gergle -

You said:

Thanks for the scripture, but I’m an atheist. I don’t believe in invisible dieties.

Do you believe in invisible spellcheckers? Or did you mean invisible “dieters”?

Just trying to inject a little humor, gergle. You go right ahead believing in … yourself and … uhm … the Big Sleep.

Posted by: Chris at September 18, 2006 9:21 PM
Comment #182442

Islam and Christianity Today‑A Contribution To Dialogue, W. Montgomery Watt states:
old religious intellectual class of the `ulama’ or jurists has tended to resist ‑change and as a result its power and influence has greatly declined. Since about 1950 the speed of change has greatly accelerated, and this has left the masses of ordinary people utterly bewildered and feeling anxious and insecure, as they saw the disappearance of familiar objects and ways of acting and their replacement by things strange and new …. It is chiefly out of this feeling of insecurity that the Islamic resurgence or revival has developed …. People looking for security think of `the good old days’ when the old religion was properly observed. One aspect of this insecurity is the fear of being, as it were, drowned in Western culture and losing one’s traditional identity. Consequently in turning to the old religion they tend to emphasize those features which make it culturally distinct from the West, such as prohibition of alcohol and usury and the use of the veil and similar coverings by women…, This type of response can indeed be traced back for centuries. A not so distant example comes from the India of about one hundred and fifty years ago, where the Hindus were eagerly getting Western education for their children, while the Muslims remained aloof…
It is the culture of arab colonialism. The religion leader and the secular politition are equal in their do nothin- silent attitude. Secular Islam (such as those run by Nassar and Husain) left poverty in a new world. Poverty of morality and finance. Nassar replaced King Fauhd but did not neglect to take the structure and wealth unto himself. Now the Arabs long for meaning and a part of the “action” They feel that they must rely upn the “glory of their past” They have looked upon their failures in religious practice and feel by being “more religious (read radical) and believe their job should convert every one and the world would be better. But people like Osama only want power and money or even glory for themselves.
So much for my understanding. It is like an Athist comming to believe in any G-d - It takes a wack from a hh-ll of a big stick
k

Posted by: kuzriel at September 18, 2006 11:25 PM
Comment #182450

Do any of you guys even know any Muslims personally? Doesn’t sound like it.

Posted by: beijing rob at September 18, 2006 11:57 PM
Comment #182475

mem beth,

you say that “faith is belief in what cannot be
proved”. Then I guess we would have to conclude
that “gergle” has FAITH in what he believes…or
doesn’t believe. Since he can NOT prove that GOD
does NOT exist, any more than I can prove HE does
exist, then doesn’t that make us equal in our
faiths?

gergle,

you say, “I enjoy intellectual debate, which is
why I post here.” Which seems odd to me, seeing
as how you seem to believe that a fair number of
us are “nutty”, delusional Christian sheep. So
should we be honored that you are lowering your
intellect to our level or concerned that your
views are equally as nutty? Which ever it is,
keep the faith.

Oh, and as for people like Becky “stealing rhetoric from the 60’s”. Have you not heard of Cindy Sheehan and the worn out 60’s rhetoric
from her followers? I’d love to “give peace a
chance”. Once they quit turning passenger jets
into bombs and quit slaughtering thousands of
innocent civilians. I guess only elephants have
long memories. Unlike stubborn jack-asses.

BTW gergle, I DO believe that there are plenty
of nutty people out there of all religious faiths
and beliefs. But surely I don’t have to remind
you of how many atheists there have been thoughout
history who have commited mass murder, genocide,
etc.? You seem bright enough to know that evil,
whether the devil made ‘em do it or the lack of
a soul did, exists in every segment of every
society.

Posted by: Dale G. at September 19, 2006 4:13 AM
Comment #182478

Dale G.,

Chill out, Dude!! To borrow from the sixties or 70’s treasure chest of dialogue.

If you have read many of my posts, you will know I make ample of use sarcasm, especially when replying to rather strident posts. There are all kinds of nuts in the world, I agree.

I have many friends who are religious and I don’t consider them nuts. It might astonish you that I have even attended church with them at times.

Logic makes it impossible to prove a negative. My “beliefs” are based on what I see evidence of, and what is likely. No one knows everything and if you want to make the reductio absurdum argument, no one can know anything.

I’m not trying to insult religion, just establish that I don’t find the Bible or any other holy text particularly persuasive. This is a political blog not a theological blog.

I learn a great deal through debating and discussing issues with the posters here, and certainly do not consider myself in any way superior to anyone, nor do I consider myself inferior.

The point I’ve been trying to make in this thread is that Muslims, in general, are peaceful and just trying to live their lives, as my Muslim friends do. Painting them all as radical terrorists or a violent group is bigoted and silly. Do you disagree?

Posted by: gergle at September 19, 2006 5:41 AM
Comment #182479

Chris, I prey to Bogie and Bacall every nite.:)

Posted by: gergle at September 19, 2006 5:51 AM
Comment #182487

My Name Is Roger:

QUESTION: Maybe someone can help me… what does it mean when you get a message [ ERROR OCCURRED ]

No such entry ’ 4210’

When trying to respons to someones post?????

ROGER A Conservative Christian Rupublican

Posted by: ROGER at September 19, 2006 6:40 AM
Comment #182502

Dale G:

Actually in my earlier post I was referencing your statement. I wasn’t saying who cares literally. It was sarcasm. So thanks for the jackass comment. I think you misunderstood and innaccurately judged.

Thanks again

Posted by: Becky at September 19, 2006 9:06 AM
Comment #182503

Gergle,


—-“The point I’ve been trying to make in this thread is that Muslims, in general, are peaceful and just trying to live their lives, as my Muslim friends do. Painting them all as radical terrorists or a violent group is bigoted and silly. Do you disagree?”—-


I completely agree with this statement. I lived in NYC for many years and were surrounded with many peaceful Muslims. To judge an entire religion on the radical behaviors of some is a shame. As for your lack of belief in religion I wonder, do you believe in any higher power? I am just asking to try and get a better sense of where you are coming from. I feel that belief in a higher power (whether it be God or whatever) leads to a hope that nothing else can provide.

Jennifer,

I applause your enthusiasm and positive outlook on humanity.

Posted by: Becky at September 19, 2006 9:16 AM
Comment #182513

Becky,

I do not believe in a higher order, per se. I do believe in Natural Order and as a former physics major, I find the universe mysterious enough.

I do believe that you live the life you choose. I choose to strive to be moral, not in fear of God or in hope of a reward in heaven, but simply because that was how I was raised and believe it is a worthy goal. It’s how I want to be known. In some regards, I guess, I believe you reap what you sew or perhaps in karma. I know there is enough randomness in life, that those things are not necessarily going to happen, but what other choice is there really? If you choose to be sociopathic or amoral that seems to me to be a rather bleak journey.


Posted by: gergle at September 19, 2006 10:29 AM
Comment #182517

Ok, this personal, emotional crap has got to go. All of you asking if “you know a muslim?”, my answer is yes and I know Israelis, children, female flight attendants, firemen/policemen and their families. Knowing an individual, or group of individuals, doesn’t prove that you’re using logic and reason; it means you’re using emotionalism. Remember, it’s not the muslims here (in the US) that’s the problem; it’s the middle east muslims that breed the hatred and deviate from the religion.


Some of you continue to try and claim that Islam is a “peaceful” religion, ok well, it’s believeable when (and only when) they stop saying their a religion of “peace”, yet kill you when you don’t convert or say something bad about their religion, they hold mass riots and kill you.

So, enough already. Until the (so called) “moderate” muslims can take back their religion from the Islamofascists, they are not going to get any respect from the US and they will not be considered a “peace” religion. Period!

Posted by: rahdigly at September 19, 2006 10:49 AM
Comment #182522

Rahdigly,

So…let’s just get this straight, b/c 2% (if that) of the Muslim religion are extremists than you can group them all into one large category?? Yes there are extreme Muslim terrorist groups that do horrible things, have committed major attrocities. That is unrefutable and those people should pay. However, my only point is generalizing a whole group of people on a minority’s actions is wrong. If you want to be angry at Muslims be angry at those extremeist groups not at the entire Muslim nation. I look at it in this perspective, when the KKK was regularly terrorizing minorities in the past and even present- do we group all whites into the category of these violent, radical nutjobs? I understand that this is a different kind of a comparison, I am just using it to convey a larger idea.
Yes there are specific verses in the Kuran that call for violence against opposition to Muslim beliefs, however many Muslims reject these ideas. To address the whole idea that it is only Muslims from other countries that become extremists- that is ridiculous. They are here, they are there. Those groups thrive in many different environments. But they are the minority in that religion. I am a conservative Christian who values this country greatly, I just fear that the hatred is being transferred to millions of innocent people in this religion.

When you said:

-“Some of you continue to try and claim that Islam is a “peaceful” religion, ok well, it’s believeable when (and only when) they stop saying their a religion of “peace”, yet kill you when you don’t convert or say something bad about their religion, they hold mass riots and kill you.”-

I don’t even know how to respond to that extreme generality….I don’t even know where to begin.

Posted by: Becky at September 19, 2006 11:45 AM
Comment #182524

There is no such thing as an athiest.

By ones own existence, their contacts, things around them, facts of history, time lines, and on and on, a person who claims to be an athiest must acknowledge the existence of GOD by everything about and around us.

Posted by: tomh at September 19, 2006 11:50 AM
Comment #182544

TomH

ummmm, nope, I don’t. I only must die and pay taxes. I think there is no such thing as TomH and by my existance you must therefore cease to exist.

Posted by: gergle at September 19, 2006 1:27 PM
Comment #182682

I cannot believe that I spent 9 years of my life in the military defending the freedoms and lives of people like the liberals posting on this site. What a waste of my time!

Posted by: Robert Sievers at September 19, 2006 9:56 PM
Comment #182725

I’m not Catholic, but I do not think the Pope needs to say he is sorry to anyone.

Posted by: Ed. McConnell at September 19, 2006 11:40 PM
Comment #182755

Becky,
sorry if I misconstrued.

Gergle,
I appreciate your responses. I agree with some
of the things you’ve said. I’ve worked with
more than a few Muslims ( mostly Iranian )
and all were/are wonderful people. Regarding
“Natural Order”. I take it you believe that
order can ALWAYS come from chaos since you don’t
believe that there was a Creator who made order
out of chaos. We could get in to all kinds of
debates/discussions about the THEORY of Macro-
Evolution, GOD & freewill, the theories of
Creation physics, etc., but that would be getting
way off the subject of this thread.
So in the spirit of Karma, reaping what you sew,
or as I like to call it, The Golden Rule…
I digress…again. I also agree with you on the
sarcasm thing. It can be a little fun to be a
little smarmy sometimes, as long as you don’t
get too full of yourself and try to make your
points by hitting below the belt.

Posted by: Dale G. at September 20, 2006 2:37 AM
Comment #182756

Here’s something I don’t get. Muslims were offended by a Danish editorial cartoon that depicted Mohammed wearing a turban with a bomb in it. They were angered that Westerners would dare to inslult thier prophet by depicting him as violent. The response of Muslims worldwide? Violent protests, arson and murder. The Pope quotes a Byzantine Emperor from almost 1,000 years ago again referring to Muslim violence. Once again, murder and the threats of murder. The idea of Islam being a religion of peace is such an obvious fallacy to me that its ridiculous. This is not to say that all Muslims are violent, but there seems to be an acceptance of the use of violence to include suicide attacks, by the majority of the Muslim population. There are no protests of the use of Islam to justify these acts, so what are we in the West to think? Personally, I can’t wait until we do run out of oil. Once we no longer need it, we can get out of the Middle East and leave these people to what they do best, killing each other.

Posted by: 1LT B at September 20, 2006 3:20 AM
Comment #182873

1LT B-

I also find the popular reactions of muslims to be ironic. “If you call us inhuman, we’ll do something inhumane!” Thing is, I have real trouble believing that this is the popular view in even the most extreme nations. I think there is a very large power vacuum in the arab world, and extremist tactics guarantees you a piece of the pie.

This state of affairs will persist until a group becomes powerful enough and stands to lose too much from extremists’ actions that they crack down in a bottom to top fashion. It reminds me of when gangs in LA got so out of control (graffiti especially) that they disrupted the drug trade due to police crack-downs, etc. What happened next? The Mexican mafia put a silent hit on anyone who drew attention to them. Overnight the graffiti was gone, and the city police forces hailed “victory”.

So this begs many questions. The first being: is this our tactic? Are we just waiting for a group to back? Then isn’t our very presence counter-productive in creating the right circumstances for any moderate group to rise to power?

Posted by: Kevin23 at September 20, 2006 2:42 PM
Comment #182875

1LT B, those acts that were committed are against
what is taught in Quran. The killing of innocents.
As in the Old testament, there are many passages that can be misinterpeted by the ignorant.
Also, twenty percent of our oil comes from the middle east. Do you have any idea why we would subject our own brothers and sisters lifes for that supply? My guess is those who profit from that 20% happen to be running our country now.


Robert Seivers -You were told you were defending our freedoms. What freedoms that were given to us by our Creator have you defended in those nine years?

Roger the Christian Conservative- the Quran has some many beautiful things to say about Jesus.
Did you find them? The Virgin birth, the miracles, etc.

Posted by: Justin Anderson at September 20, 2006 2:46 PM
Comment #182976

I know several hundred muslims from Israel alone. I speak from over 20 years of living there. The Muslims of each country are different in many aspects of life, as are Christians and Jews.

Justin - have you read the Koran in Arabic, like all “Semetic writings” unless you read the original text and have lived among Arabs you miss the subilty of words. While on the surface the Koran says a lot of good things, but you have to look at how the charactors are delt with in the context of their religion - not in an interprataion of a translated text.
K

Posted by: kuzriel at September 20, 2006 11:29 PM
Comment #200616

Amazing , muslims can kill a nun muslims can threaten any one who diaagrees with them or God forbid tell the truth about ther relgion ,and we who think hunting down terrorists and there supporters have the wrong idea. funny i thought we were born with freedom to say and believe whatever we choose even if it’s insulting . But seeing how I’m only a bluecollar working man who’s serving his country in the guard , I guess I got it all wrong . I guess the lefist and libs have it write freedom and it’s defence only apply if you don’t have any absolute values and are willing to live under a kindly dictator like a liberal president .

Posted by: Steven Boucher at December 28, 2006 6:05 AM
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