Sept 15 Sources: the End of Al Franken

Air America is finally paying Al Franken what he is worth. Franken says he suspected his employer had money problems when they stopped paying him. Despite all the influential liberal well-wishers and deep-pocketed sugar daddies, Air America is crashing and burning. No surprise when Al Franken and Geraldine Garofolo are the flying the plane. They cannot compete with conservative pundits.

I have never understood Franken's appeal. Even before I knew he was a liberal, I knew he wasn't funny. Garofolo has her moments, but there have not been many recently. Their dominant emotion is anger. Angry people are not funny. There is nothing wrong with having a point of view. Most comedians seem to be liberal and I find most of them funny. Conservatives are certainly partisan, but conservative pundits understand that communications come first and the agenda comes later. Even Al Gore knows this and manages to be funny in a Rodney Dangerfield kind of way, but the idea goes clean over Franken's head.

This is the way you can tell a mean joke: How many liberals does it take to change a light bulb? Four. One to hold the bulb and three to turn the stool. Here it is Frankenstyle. Why does it take four conservatives to change a light bulb? Because they are stupid.

Franken and Garofolo will soon be gone. We may not soon see their like again. We can only hope.

Other sources are below.

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Air America vs. Conservatives on Talk Radio's Airwaves
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Britain Must Reject Appeasement of Islamic Terrorists
California and New York City Remain Most Popular Places People Would Choose to Live
Call the Conflict by Its Proper Name: Geo-Civil War
Gallup Poll Offers Hope for House GOP
Global NATO
Integrating Islam: Political and Religious Challenges in Contemporary
France

Iraq Is a Strategic Battleground in the War Against Terrorism
Lessons from the First Five Years of War
Lies, Damn Lies, and Income Statistics: Understanding the Detroit Free Press's Income Map
September 11 Attacks Drag on the World Economy Today
Statehouse Roundup: A Year of Surpluses, Social Issues
Tree Research Could Lead to New Fuel Sources*
U.S. Military Policy in Iraq: "Cut and Run" a Disaster for the U.S. and the Middle East
Weakening Rights to Save Them
What Price Freedom? Assessing the Bush Administration's Freedom Agenda

Posted by Jack at September 15, 2006 11:06 PM
Comments
Comment #181727

I’ve never heard Al Franken’s radio show or had access to Air America. All I get around here is conservative radio pundits such as Limbaugh, Savage, and Boortz. (Sigh, yet I’m told constantly that the media is left-wing, but let that go). I did read one of his books in which he provided evidence debunking many Limbaugh statements, and of course I used to see him on Saturday Night Live.

I thought he was quite funny, though I never really liked the Jack Handey stuff.

I’ve often wondered why comedians are mostly left-wing. Good comedy involves insight, but, frankly, the few right-wing comedians or cartoonists I’ve read come across as mean-spirited rather than funny. I think part of this has to do with power. A typical right-wing joke might be at the expense of a homeless person, but it’s rarely funny, because humor is most useful to discomfort the powerful. Like most of us, we’ve been in situations where people tell racist jokes; invariably these guys (they are usually guys) vote Republican, if they vote at all.

I’m NOT saying all Republicans are racist, but if I hear someone tell a racist joke, invariably the teller defines himself as either a conservative or Republican, though, to be fair, they generally do not have sophisticated views on what they claim to believe.

Posted by: Trent at September 15, 2006 11:57 PM
Comment #181731

Seems that Air America, Franken and the lot were from the beginning just an attempt to imitate the success of conservative radio.

The problem is that conservative radio is a kind of political insurgency, the only place for a long time where points of view that huge swaths of America hold could be given voice. Liberals controlled pretty much everything else, so venues like Air America and liberal blogs were merely redundant and have suffered accordintly.

Rush Limbaugh, the unquestioned king of such media, established his audience and influence long before conservative blogs and (to some extent) FOX News arrived.

If Limbaugh were to arrive on the scene today, he would probably be as redundant as Air America and suffer the same fate. The thing is that by the time that a few real conservative venues came out, he was already well established.

Franken always wanted to be the new liberal Limbaugh, but there was never any need for such a figure in a landscape littered with the Michael Moores, Dan Rathers, Katie Courics, Rosie O’Donnels, etc.

Posted by: Pilsner at September 16, 2006 12:04 AM
Comment #181746

Pilsner,

Rosie O’Donnel? Really? I mean she doesn’t use her media possition as a political soap box, it wasn’t until after she left her show that she even came out of the closet. She was an entertainer who happened to be a gay liberal, I don’t think that either of those things have anything to do with the other.

As for Katie Couric, I have no idea what you are basing your claim on, do you have any evidence she is a liberal at all?

Posted by: iandanger at September 16, 2006 1:08 AM
Comment #181752

iandanger - I can’t tell if you are joking when you ask if there is evidence regarding Couric’s liberalism. Please clarify.

I listen to XM Radio, and I listened to Air American almost every day. It was sorta like taking vitamins. I didn’t really want to do it, but I knew that it would somehow help me down the road.

I will miss it. Okay, so I couldn’t stand more than 10 or 15 minutes at a stretch, but I got a lot out of it. Frankly, the best of Air America was still more partisan and whacky than the Hannity at his worst. Screetchy, whiny, angry, bitter, over-the-top and partisan-to-the-extreme.

But if you listened REAL HARD, you would get some decent position pieces out of it.

It’s all a matter of perspective, and I appreciate the liberal perspective. Alan Colmes for example! That poor guy… he’s just a punching bag on Fox, but he keeps his chin out there, and I respect the hell out of him for doing it. And I believe that he TRULY feels that what he is saying is right. I don’t consider him a classic pundit.

Posted by: Bruce P at September 16, 2006 1:46 AM
Comment #181754

Ive listened to left radio before. Its mostly repetetive discussions about conspiracy theories and taking down the powers that be. Its kinda boring, but an interesting study. I listened intently to see if I could get an insight into the liberal mindset. I started enjoying it and became a regular listener. And guess what happened? It got canceled. Personally, I want everyone to hear what libs have to say, but they will want the government to pay for it. Maybe Err America can borrow some money from the Boys and Girls Club.

Posted by: JoeRWC at September 16, 2006 2:18 AM
Comment #181761

I was reading an article recently about the decline of radio in general. They are continuing to lose audience.

Does that mean Rush is killing radio?

I listen to Air America on line since Houston has no Air America stations that I know of. I cannot stand to listen to conservative talk, it’s usually some guy telling us how smart he is.

I only listen to radio when I’m driving.

How old is Air America? 2 years, I think. Imagine a fledgling company having cash flow issues. C’mon Jack, you’re really reaching lately.

Posted by: gergle at September 16, 2006 4:14 AM
Comment #181762

I found his show boring as hell most of the time. It is no wonder its bankrupt. Now the Bill Maher show. That’s a horse of a different color. I haven’t seen Stewart’s show, but, I hear its all the rage with the younger crowd. Good. Darn Good, from what I hear.

Posted by: David R. Remer at September 16, 2006 4:20 AM
Comment #181763

gergle, its the Lincoln phenomena. You can fool all the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but, you can’t fool all the people all the time. Radio is declining for that reason.

Ironically, however, there is a new radio network starting up by Jane Fonda and Gloria Steinem. Lots of girlie stuff, Republicans won’t like it. :-)

Posted by: David R. Remer at September 16, 2006 4:23 AM
Comment #181764

Jack,

I don’t think that Franken was trying to compete with the conservative pundits as their audiences would be mutually exclusive.
I do remember Limbaugh’s belittling of Air America, as if the networks attempt at existence was something he found contemptible.
While I was on a business trip, I bought Franken’s book on Limbaugh at the Dallas airport, and read it on the plane home. Portions of the book were laugh out loud funny and I received some strange looks from the other passengers.

Air America is/was a business that was underfunded from the beginning, and as a result was extremely limited in it’s audience. The people I know that listened on a regular basis found it a refreshing change from the biases of conservative talk radio.
Personally, on the rare occasions I had to listen, I found it no more polarizing than the conservative alternatives.

Posted by: Rocky at September 16, 2006 6:10 AM
Comment #181767
Even before I knew he was a liberal, I knew he wasn’t funny.

I’m not sure what you are saying here. If you mean that YOU don’t find him funny, I can’t argue with that. If you mean that he isn’t funny in some objective sense, you have explain his bestselling books and his popular appearances on SNL.


It is not surprising that you don’t find him funny, because you disagree with him. You wouldn’t hear many militant feminists saying that a sexist comedian is funny. After all, he isn’t funny, to THEM.

Air America was a noble attempt that obviously failed miserably. Hopefully, liberals/leftists will keep trying. I’m sure that if you looked into it you would find many failures on the right side before Rush Limbaugh found the right formula.

Maybe Speaker Pelosi will have some ideas… ;)

Posted by: Woody Mena at September 16, 2006 7:05 AM
Comment #181771

I’ve listened to both left and right wing radio programs and Al Franken is just about as boring and monotonous as they come. The most balanced is Bill O’Reilly’s show, but the funniest is my favorite, Laura Ingraham. Her show is like the Howard Stern of political radio(without the sex). It’s no surprise that scareAmerica is crashing and burning because no one listens. It’s like “Countdown with Keith Olbermann”. Why would anyone watch that crap(besides his loyal following of five people) when they can flip over to O’Reilly and see something of substance. There are so many more intertaining programs on the radio than scareAmerica, heck, just flip it to the elevator music station.

BTW, look for Traitor Fonda’s treasonous blatherings to last just about as long as scareAmerica, if that. That little commie is about as intertaining as nails on a chalkboard.

Posted by: Duane-o at September 16, 2006 7:26 AM
Comment #181773

Won’t Pelosi have to take the Botox needle out of her forehead to come up with any ideas? And how can she be House SPEAKER until she wipes that surgically embedded smile off her plastic face? Just a thought.

Posted by: Duane-o at September 16, 2006 7:29 AM
Comment #181780

I’ll believe that Al Franken and Air America are done for when they actually put the chain and the lock around the front doors. The Republicans would love to believe that the free market doesn’t like Democrats, but…

Well, I guess I’ll tell you a little secret.

Lean closer.

Talk radio really isn’t that profitable to begin with. Many stations are run at cost, and with heavy infusions of capital from outside. This isn’t a free market. This is a subsidized market where conservatives have a considerable head start. Read David Brocks The Republican Noise Machine for more details.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 16, 2006 8:22 AM
Comment #181791

Woody, they are still broadcasting and have increased radio stations dramatically in the last year.

Al admits they’ve had cash flow problems throughout. The right wing has broadcast it’s bankruptcy for 2 years now… about every 6 months. Maybe someday they might even be correct.

Posted by: gergle at September 16, 2006 9:36 AM
Comment #181793

Jack

I heard Air-America Radio and Al Franken. I never liked it from the beginning. I found it to be a cheap imitation of conservative radio. As a person with left leaning views - I found it embarassing and insulting.

Everything I do not like about Conservative Radio (biased, angery, rightous, blindly right wing, passionly anti-left, popoulism, knee-jerk, promote white house talking points, shill for right wing propaganda and anti-thinking) - Air America was trying to be the same from the left.

Liberals are just not as good at it as conservatives. It was bound to fail from the begining.

Posted by: Jerseyguy at September 16, 2006 9:45 AM
Comment #181797

Sure—radio is not profitable—that’s why Howard Stern just signed for about $500 million. Never mind XM radio, either. Nothing to see here.

The reason most of the left wing can’t compete is lack of entertainment value. Bitter, mean and angry just does not sell to most of America. Most of us are optimistic, and happy.

Calling for the assasination of the president each day is kind of a turn-off, as well.

Posted by: nikkolai at September 16, 2006 10:05 AM
Comment #181803
The reason most of the left wing can’t compete is lack of entertainment value. Bitter, mean and angry just does not sell to most of America. Most of us are optimistic, and happy.

Hahaha! A conservative accusing left-wing radio of being mean and angry? Now THAT is entertainment. You should do stand-up.

Calling for the assasination of the president each day is kind of a turn-off, as well.

Yeah, I hate those guys who get on the radio every day and tell people to assassinate the president. Who are we talking about, exactly?

Howard Stern does fart jokes, not politics.

Posted by: Woody Mena at September 16, 2006 10:33 AM
Comment #181804

Nikkolai,

Funny, bitterness, anger, meanness is what I hear from Limbaugh, Boortz, and Savage. Do you not? I’m being serious. I find it very hateful, and unnecessarily so. There are plenty of conservative writers I can respect because they put forth their views calmly and rationally, but I’ve yet to hear any on radio. Put aside your partisan hat for a bit and tell me why what I percieve isn’t true.

Btw, insofar as left radio imitates the tactics of right radio, I would be disgusted with it, too, I imagine. But I’ve never heard left radio.

nikkolai, if you are a mere partisan — that is, one who selects only evidence that appears to support your cause, one who refuses to admit valid points from the other side, one who places party above country — then your views are worthless because we know that you are intellectually dishonest. This applies to any partisan, left or right.

Posted by: Trent at September 16, 2006 10:33 AM
Comment #181808

Gergle

Air America is one of the best funded startups in history. It has no shortage of backers and publicity. Conservative talk radio started with nothing.

I am not saying that liberals cannot be successful. It is just that the Air America nasty format with Franken and Garofolo is not the vehicle.

Rocky

Welcome back.

The business model was really different. Conservative radio grew organically. Air America is an artificial creation meant to carry a message. The problem with Air America is that it had TOO MUCH money and support. They did not have to serve an audience.

David

Most MSM is in decline. People like you and me are responsible in our small way. We are fragmenting audiences. But let’s take ourselves as examples.

I have never met you, but I like and respect you. I think the audience generally does too. I hope I have achieved a similar level of respect (if not love). Most people who read us do not agree with most of what we write, but we don’t treat them with contempt, so they “like” us. I get the feeling that Franken and Garofolo hate ME. Not my politics, ME.

When Franken tells a joke, it always has that passive aggressive uber nerd edge.

Woody

One of the funniest comedians I ever knew was a lesbian who had a talk about homosexuality in Star Trek. She spliced together a film showing Spock and Kirk looking at each other in suggestive ways. It was really funny.

Franken seems to aim his humor exclusively at those already convinced. Look at the titles to his books. He is just mean. He will probably steal the joke about the light bulb AND think it is funny (it is not BTW).

Nikkolai

You make a good point about Howard Stern. I personally don’t like him either, but I can tell he is clever. Franken just doesn’t have what it takes.

Liberals should stick with John Stewart. He is clever and funny.

Posted by: Jack at September 16, 2006 11:01 AM
Comment #181811
Franken seems to aim his humor exclusively at those already convinced.

You could say the same thing about Rush Limbaugh, except for the humor part. How many liberals have changed their beliefs after hearing his show? Not many, I imagine, since one of his main premises is that we are hateful and want to destroy America.

Most politically-oriented media preaches to the choir. Apparently liberals aren’t as susceptible to this kind of flattery.

Posted by: Woody Mena at September 16, 2006 11:11 AM
Comment #181812

When it gets down to functional politics, where the rubber hits the road, so-to-speak, Air America didn’t have a single host that could drill down on a subject with authority.

Hugh Hewitt is an example of a host that can rip you to shreds if you don’t know policy. Liberal talking-heads tend to avoid his show like the plague because he beats them with facts and figures and logical thought. Franken resorts to humor and lies to “create” a point. He has never won a political “face off” against guys like Hewitt, McCarthy, or Brian Kilmeade (okay, I just threw him in for effect). But I guess I am not comparing apples to apples. Franken is an entertainer first, not a policy wonk that gets his own radio show.

Posted by: Bruce P at September 16, 2006 11:15 AM
Comment #181817

Trent, your remark about racism is as offensive as it is untrue. It’s based on anecdotal evidence which you use as a basis- despite your disclaimer- for what amounts to an ad hominem attack against Republicans. In case you miss the point, there are plenty of card carrying union members and blue collar Democrats who are also white racists- and plenty of politicians in the Democratic Party who are black ones.

And the “liberal media” truism comes from the fact that more than two thirds of working journalists voted for both Al Gore and John Kerry. The writers of TV shows tend to be similarly stacked to the Left, which is why so many TV dramas turn out in practice to be free political advertisements for the Democrats and their agenda.

Posted by: Bob Waters at September 16, 2006 11:48 AM
Comment #181819

Bruce P,

Where I come from, the burden of proof is on the accuser. If you are claiming Katie Couric has a liberal bias, you damn well better have something to back it up, otherwise you’re just spinning your wheels. So, did she call the president a nazi? Do you have evidence that on air she shouts down conservative politicians and pundits and takls over them? What could she have possibly done to show her glaring liberal bias? And if you don’t actually cite some evidence to me (I will cross refence any references with lexis nexis) then you have lost this, you understand?

Just because someone is a woman doing the lead anchor job does not mean she is some feminazi, and the fact that she took Dan Rather’s job is not an excuse. You need quoted evidence before you can accuse someone of bias, plain and simple.

Jack,
As it turns out Air America didn’t file Chapter 11, guess your sources had it wrong. I certainly don’t blame you, even Think Progress had written up that Air America was going to go into restructuring and file for chapter 11 (though franken woul be staying on the show and the network would stil exist)
Alas, the s

Posted by: iandanger at September 16, 2006 11:59 AM
Comment #181820

I just do not understand Franken’s appeal. Even Michael Moore I understand. I dislike him with a passion, but I can see that his stuff is clever. Franken, I don’t get.

The other one I don’t get is Gary Shandling (I don’t think he is political). He and Franken seem to get lots of chances, but never make a go. As long as I am on this, we also have Kevin Cosner, Susan Sarandon and Ben Afleck. Who can understand their persistence?

Posted by: Jack at September 16, 2006 12:11 PM
Comment #181824

Bob Waters,

I have only my own experience to back up the assertion that most people who tell racist jokes are either Republicans or non-voters. I believe I made clear the anecdotal nature of my evidence.

If your experience is different, I will not doubt your word.

I am not aware of any sort of quantative study on this issue, but if you know of some, I would to be happy to read them.

I used to be a working journalist and, yes, I am left leaning. In a general sense, it is true, I think, that most working journalists tend to be a bit left-of-center. I’ve often wondered why, because my right-of-center colleagues reported no prejudice in their hiring. I can only speculate, but my gut feeling is that journalists (and here I speak of print journalists — I have a perhaps unfair prejudice against broadcast journalists because from my experience they often have ego-centered motivations for pursuing their line of work) tend to at least start off as idealistic and thus are willing to give up more lucrative careers, and the diehard conservatives I knew were often interested in pursuing more lucrative careers. But this is speculation based on my own experience.

At any rate, the truism in newsrooms is that liberals are working for conservatives. Editorial policy is not determined by the grunt reporter or copy editor. Generally it is determined by the publisher, who more often than not has conservative leanings.


Bob, I hear people defending right-wing radio by saying the marketplace supports the views expressed there. If in fact most writers of TV dramas are left-of-center, could not the same argument be used? TV shows have to be profitable are they are gone, fast. Perhaps this is a different in perception, but when I go to movies, I see an ideology that encourages violence as a solution to problems, that glorifies violating civil rights in pursuit of criminals, that excuses torture. Some of these movies I enjoy, btw, but they do not support my beliefs.

The whole issue of whether or not the media is biased is a tough one based on viewer/reader perception. Honestly, the media rarely seems to support my perceptions.

Posted by: Trent at September 16, 2006 12:19 PM
Comment #181825

Jack,

Comedy is, of course, subjective, but the main reason a lot of liberals like Al Franken is that, though he is biased as hell, he does a lot of reasearch and makes sure everything that goes into his books and radio show are absolutely true. If anyone confronts him with a mistake, he is completely willing to own up to it.

Posted by: iandanger at September 16, 2006 12:28 PM
Comment #181826
He and Franken seem to get lots of chances, but never make a go.

I think it is more accurate to say Al Franken gave Air America a chance than the other way around. He is successful author and TV writer and didn’t really need to bother. He has five bestsellers. Most authors would kill to “fail” like that.

Nobody listens to those Hollywood guys* except conservative pundits, and only so they can sell books complaining they have too much influence.

*Leaving out Ahnuld, Charleton Heston, and various right-wing heroes…

Posted by: Woody Mena at September 16, 2006 12:29 PM
Comment #181827

I haven’t listened to Air America, wouldn’t even know where to set my radio, but I’ve had liberal friends of mine tell me that they’d rather listen to Rush than anyone they have on Air America. It’s getting pretty bad when your intended audience won’t even listen to you but would listen to your competition.

Posted by: Ron Brown at September 16, 2006 12:34 PM
Comment #181828

Jack, I’m with you on Kevin Costner. Except for Bull Durham, I don’t think I’ve ever seen him in a movie I liked. I loved the comment one reviewer made about Dances with Wolves — Costner “Plays with Camera.”

Ben Affleck I can take or leave. At any rate, I don’t particularly care what an actor’s political views are. Robert Duval, for example, is conservative, but so what? He’s a great actor. Clint Eastwood is also conservative, but I’m not going to stop loving those old spaghetti westerns.

I can think of only one instance in which I refuse to view or read something based on my own beliefs. I will never buy an L. Ron Hubbard book because I don’t want my money going to support his estate. I refused to see Battlefield Earth for the same reason. Perhaps I am contradictory, because I will go see movies featuring Scientologist actors, including John Travolta. I think Tom Cruise is a nutcase, but with good direction, he can do a good job on screen.

Ah well, you know what they say about consistency.

Posted by: Trent at September 16, 2006 12:40 PM
Comment #181832

Air America is having troubles because they thought they could start at the top.

If you look at the history of most conservative talk show hosts, they paid there dues by starting in small or local markets. This gave them a chance to hone there skills and see what the market wanted before trying to go nationwide.

Also if you actually listen to conservative talk radio it’s not all about politics they do cover other topics. They may be from a conservative bent, but that’s what there audience wants.

Posted by: Keith at September 16, 2006 1:30 PM
Comment #181834

My Lord! You guys post like college professors! You love to read what you’ve written but it’s drivel!
I’ll tell you up front, I am a conservative. I don’t listen to Hannity because he is a repititious, monotonous, boring person and sometimes borders on just throwing stuff against the wall to see if it sticks! Air America, as a whole, is the same way only they are vicious, slanderous and liars to boot. I am making a sweeping statement and if I have offended anyone, I don’t care! Air America is finished and good riddance!
By the way, just to give you a glimmer as to what type of conservative I am, I do not, repeat, do not believe in the death penalty. I have taken this position not because I am squeamish about killing someone but because many, many prosecutors are politicians and if they have to railroad a few people on their way to power, they don’t mind doing it.
Anyway, could you guys make your points with conviction and with something to back it up? Asking me to believe your point because someone of like mind says so is not back up.

Posted by: Vince at September 16, 2006 1:54 PM
Comment #181836

^^ Now that would be a great liberal radio, more in the vain of Thomas Payne of course :P
Most liberals I know listen to NPR and the BBC.
I think the show could of worked if Franken would have stuck to what he does best (writing)and sought out better personalities. Like his days with Saturday Night Live, hysterical still.

Posted by: Justin A. at September 16, 2006 2:08 PM
Comment #181844

a network that is based on hatred really wasn’t a good idea from the beginning. shrieking anti american rhetoric is not what anyone wants to listen to 24/7…i used to listen to america left on xm all the time just to listen to the other sides arguments and ideas….but it was hate bush, hate war, hate america…i thought that the “intellectuals” would have figured out by now that endless rants doesn’t open minds and is definitely not entertaining. at least when i listen to npr i stay interested even if i don’t agree with the viewpoint being expressed…plus npr actually talks about something other then big bad america.

and you people who think radio isn’t profitable you need to look around…limbaugh is on around 600 stations and has 20 million listeners…do the math..

and you people who think siruis and xm are profitable…i have some junk bonds for sale.

Posted by: eric k at September 16, 2006 3:34 PM
Comment #181854

Jerseyguy said - “I heard Air-America Radio and Al Franken. I never liked it from the beginning. I found it to be a cheap imitation of conservative radio. As a person with left leaning views - I found it embarassing and insulting.”

JoeIWC said - “Ive listened to left radio before. Its mostly repetetive discussions about conspiracy theories and taking down the powers that be. Its kinda boring, but an interesting study.”

David R. Remer said - “I found his show boring as hell most of the time. It is no wonder its bankrupt.”

Bruce P. said - “Air America didn’t have a single host that could drill down on a subject with authority.”
—-
Yet Stephen says - “The Republicans would love to believe that the free market doesn’t like Democrats…”

NO. Stephen, no one likes BORING!

Posted by: Don at September 16, 2006 4:11 PM
Comment #181865

Jack

Do you really believe that Limbaugh puts communications before his agenda? Not to mention Sean Hannity and Bill O’Reilly.

Posted by: mark at September 16, 2006 4:33 PM
Comment #181867

Bob

And the “liberal media” truism comes from the fact that more than two thirds of working journalists voted for both Al Gore and John Kerry.
Unless you have some proof to offer to back up this, it’s just more wrong-wing bilge. Either back it up or retract it, Bob.

Eric K

a network that is based on hatred really wasn’t a good idea from the beginning. shrieking anti american rhetoric is not what anyone wants to listen to 24/7…
I dunno, it’s worked for wrong-wing hatemonger radio.

Posted by: ElliottBay at September 16, 2006 4:37 PM
Comment #181868

Jack,

Never heard of Geraldine Garofalo. But I have heard of Janeane Garofalo.

Who’s Geraldine?

Posted by: Steve K at September 16, 2006 4:42 PM
Comment #181870

Steve K

Janeane is her name, I guess.

Trent

I don’t know about the politics of the others I mentioned. I was just ranting about their lack of ability and wondering why they keep turning up.

Keith

YOu have a good point. Rush etc started small and learned how to satisfy their audiences. Air America thought it could start at the top. It is also true that they tried to centralize it too much. It says something about the liberal mind set, doesn’t it? They want to buy their way in, start at the top and keep everything centralized.

Posted by: Jack at September 16, 2006 4:53 PM
Comment #181886

Jack,

“YOu have a good point. Rush etc started small and learned how to satisfy their audiences.”

Rush, was actually entertaining, but he has taken himself, AND his message WAY too seriously.
I could say the same for Hannity, except I think he enjoys hearing his own voice far too much. He does some good things through his concerts for the children of the troops, though I can’t give him a pass for his arrogance, and he is often inaccurate.


Duane-O,

Oreilly, oh really?

Surely you jest!

Posted by: Rocky at September 16, 2006 7:32 PM
Comment #181898

Let me guess, Jim. Republican, right?

Posted by: Trent at September 16, 2006 9:01 PM
Comment #181901

I think Jim and John like each other. Awwww.

Posted by: Kevin23 at September 16, 2006 9:07 PM
Comment #181917

Air America isn’t going out of business yet — but you righties have been waiting for that day for two years, ever since they started. You’d love to be able to crow about their demise, and claim that it’s proof that no one wants to listen to liberal radio, but you couldn’t be more wrong.
I’ve only listened to the Al Franken show a handful of times, so I can’t talk too knowledgably about it, but I do know that his salary of 2 million dollars has got to be eating up far too much of AAR’s operating costs. Truth is, you don’t need giant stars to build a radio audience, you just need good personalities who know how to entertain — and in the case of talk radio, inform people in that process.
Air America used to have an early morning show that I used to listen to: The Morning Edition with two guys named Marc as hosts. One of them was hilarious, but not super well-known comedian Marc Maron (I like to see his stand-up when he comes to SF — he’s terrific.). There was some sort of friction between him and someone at the top of AAR, and after a while he was yanked, though I believe the show might still be on with the other Marc still hosting. I stopped listening to that time slot after Marc Maron left — they should have never let that guy go.
I also still listen to The Ed Schultz show, The Randi Rhodes Show, and Sam Sedar’s Minority Report show ocassionally (Btw, Jeanane Garafalo has been on infrequently for the past year, and officially left the show back in July).

Most of the people I know have AAR tuned to their regular radio station buttons in their cars. The market is definitely out there in this country — they just have to keep the best talent, and cut the deadwood, just like any business does.
I think Air America could be much more successful if they didn’t insist that every station buy their whole entire line-up of shows when they buy in. If someone in charge was smart, they’d allow stations to buy only the shows they want, rather than take the all or nothing approach.

This is exactly why Ed Schultz is doing so well — he’s broadcast on AAR, but he’s with the Jones Radio Network, so all kinds of stations can buy into just his program. The result of that has been that Ed Schultz is very popular, because the stations who are buying his show know their market, and he fits right into it.
Shows like Randi Rhodes and Minority Report are the kind that could only do well in the big cities of America — they’ve just got that city kind of vibe. Those shows should be offered in those kind of locations, while a guy like Ed Shultz is going to appeal everywhere else.

Whoever is in charge at AAR needs to do a better job understanding the American radio market. They also need to seek out and/or hold onto amazing talents such as Marc Maron when they’ve got them. Hopefully if they survive, they’ll begin to sort these kinds of things out and start making better business decisions.

They aren’t dead yet though — so it looks like you righties are going to have to get back in formation again, circling like crows, waiting to triumphantly swoop down on the liberal carcass of Air America.

Posted by: Adrienne at September 16, 2006 10:35 PM
Comment #181932

John Stewart is branded a liberal? Why?

Why is it that every commentator, radio personality, or journalist who uses FACTS to dispute the Administration’s fabrications and/or slant on reality is branded a liberal???

Hhhmmm…

Posted by: LibRick at September 16, 2006 11:30 PM
Comment #181935

LibRick-

When the FACTS are slanted left, or when the left-leaning FACTS don’t include equally valid right-leaning FACTS that give balance… liberal.

Air America gave no FACTS. And it was BORING.

Posted by: Don at September 16, 2006 11:44 PM
Comment #181936

Adrienne…..! What a beautiful name!

Perhaps you should be running AA! At least you were definitive in your comments no matter how tunneled your vision is.

AA is DEAD, DEAD, DEAD! Long live O’Rielly!!!

Posted by: Vince at September 16, 2006 11:53 PM
Comment #181956

If you’re listening to Rush or any of these creeps then you’re simply not thinking for yourself. These guys motivate people using the slimiest tactics imaginable. People! Rush is a crackhead!

Posted by: Max at September 17, 2006 2:33 AM
Comment #181959

Don,

FACTS do not lean left (or right), facts are facts. And, there are a lot of facts on Air America radio.

It is not amazing to me, that right-wing pundents do not like Air America. Especially Al Franken. It took me a little while to get used to his show, and I am a long time fan.

You have to be an intellectual to enjoy the Al Frankens show. He will name names, and he talks political history. So, there is a lot of time you have to research, or play “catch up”, or do your homework, to really understand what the show is all about.

The right-wing does not want to look at the facts. They do not want to read up on an issue to understand it. They just want their pablum spoon feed to them from a guy that says “lay back, daddy is in the drivers seat, and I will do all the thinking for you”.

Air America is not dead. So, dont put your party hats on too soon. (There are still some of us that want to think for ourselves.)

Posted by: PlayNice at September 17, 2006 3:33 AM
Comment #181967

Why is it Republicans are so premature? Mission Accomplished, Air America is dead, yada, yada yada…

I suggest thinking about baseball, I hear it works in other areas where Republicans are premature….


Gone in 60 secs :), no wonder Republican women are so frustrated.(See images of Kathryn Harris and Ann Coulter)

Posted by: gergle at September 17, 2006 6:15 AM
Comment #181971

Frankin is soon to be gone….GOOD!

I couldn’t stand to hear him….never funny…never honest.

Anyone can make up stuff to proclaim….they are called liars.

I have read his books, articles…listened to his show….all lies.

Liars are what ruins a free society. He has no place in media.

Let him work the comedy channel and he’ll get put out to pasture.

Posted by: Everett at September 17, 2006 6:40 AM
Comment #181974

After reading some of these responses, it isn’t hard to see how the administration has gotten away with it’s assault on the constitution, and all the mistakes with the “war on terror”.

It would be hysterically funny, if it weren’t so perversely tragic.

What universe do you guys live in?

It surely isn’t this one.

Posted by: Rocky at September 17, 2006 7:11 AM
Comment #181983

I’m sorry Jack I don’t see it

Where is the link to your info on Air America, other than the relative number of stations?

Posted by: Loren at September 17, 2006 8:47 AM
Comment #181989

Right-wing radio, Ironically enough, is subsidized by a bunch of rich Republican elitists, who think they know better than the rest of you. For your troubles in listening, you get fed almost unadulterated talking points, straight from the GOP headquarters.

The conservative movement is an elitist movement in populist clothes. All folks have gotten for this talking point’s conduit is a bubble that has lulled them into giving up many chances to punish the incompetent and remove the irresponsible.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at September 17, 2006 9:17 AM
Comment #181990

Hannity is repetative and boring. Rush, though, is very entertaining. Conservative radio doesnt lie, it comments on the news of the day. It also discusses philosophy. There is no between the lines conspiracies. If someone says,”I like blue,” that is not a lie, thats someones opinion. I listened to an entire show of left radio, and when I heard “carry on my wayward son…,” I was disappointed the show was over. I was also sorry it was canceled. You haters need to really listen to a show before you judge it. By definition: prejudiced.

Posted by: JoeRWC at September 17, 2006 9:18 AM
Comment #181997

JoeRWC,

I have listened to Rush many times, to Boortz maybe a dozen, and to Savage three or four. Rush’s mistakes (I’ll be charitable and not call them lies) are very well documented. Boortz doesn’t seem as bad, but he tries too hard to be interesting and the result is just strange. He uses creepy voices to mock others, etc. Savage’s worldview is so depressing and bleak that now I just turn the dial.

That said, I would enjoy listening to some talk radio that didn’t involve just preaching to the choir. I consider myself pretty open-minded, but I do, like everyone, tend to be dismissive of people who ridicule or mock my views. Where are the James Kilpatrick’s or George Will’s of talk radio?

Posted by: Trent at September 17, 2006 9:42 AM
Comment #182001

PlayNice

Thank you for your post. It saved me a lot of time and I’m glad there are some reasonable people out there.

Rocky

I couldn’t agree more. I feel bad because I gave up on my conservative family and the country in the last presidental election. I truly feels the electorate deserves the leadership that it elects. I’ve tried to talk with reason, facts, and logic to my conservative friends and family… but it is like trying to debate religion with the current conservative mentality. Reason, facts, and logic are secondary, or sometimes just not factored in at all. It’s all emotion and I just can’t shake them. America seems to be waking up a bit, but I’m not sure the forces of the superconservative ultrawealthy will not sabotage all reasonable efforts to get our country back.

BTW

I sign my posts ‘LibRick’ just to indicate that I am proud to be a progressive liberal in that I am ready to hear all reasonable solutions to the problems that our nation and our world face. But if you guys knew me you would see that I live quite a ‘conservative’ lifestyle. I drug test my teens, I’ve been married for 24 years to the same beautiful liberal woman, we are members of a church (Unitarian of course!), I work!!! My wife and I earn a very good salary, we are fiscal conservatives, I play in a bluegrass band for heaven’s sake!

Just because I listen to Air America, which is GREAT, want to discuss policy, not ‘character’ (this is the conservative code for ‘morals’… and not ethics, just whether a guy cheats on his wife), want to preserve and conserve what resources our country has for ALL Americans, and want the middle class to THRIVE… for this I am labeled a ‘liberal’. I’m OK with that… of course, when you conservatives see ‘liberal’ you’ve been programmed by the Limbaugh’s, Hannity’s, and O’Reilly’s to think ‘communist’, ‘socialist’, ‘USA hater’, ‘wacko’, ‘free lifestyler’, ‘tree hugger’, ‘welfare state supporter’. None of this is true of me, but that’s the way I’ll be painted.

Which is convenient for you conservatives, of course, because then, If I’m a wacko, you won’t have to debate policy with me. You can just go on with your fixed ideological solutions… whether they work or not.

Posted by: LibRick at September 17, 2006 9:53 AM
Comment #182004

Trent—
You are right that Rush’s mistakes are documented. There is a company in California that keeps a database on Rush. They say that he is correct 98.5% of the time. So he does make mistakes 1.5% of the time.
I can recommend Bill O’Reilley. He is right-leaning sometimes, even though he wont admit it. Entertaining, though. Hannity & Colmes always shows to sides. People criticize Hannity for being a bully, but Colmes is tough. On Sundays, I like to watch a tv show with a cranky old man, who’s name I cant remember. He usually has three libs and Pat Buchanan on his show. He has a rapid fire format and usually discusses five or six topics in half an hour. He doesnt let anyone lecture and makes guests deliver good short answers. Highly entertaining. You probably know who I am talking about. If not someone out there help me out.
Your comments are more credible because you have given shows a chance. Thanks for being open minded.

Posted by: JoeRWC at September 17, 2006 10:08 AM
Comment #182007

If air america does end that is not the end of dems any more then if rush died of an overdose of drugs would mean the end of the neo-cons.

Posted by: Jeff at September 17, 2006 10:14 AM
Comment #182010

Rocky—
I dont understand liberals. They are all emotion and no logic. Its like discussing religion.
Im glad you are out there because you seem reasonable. The reason you get painted with such a broad brush is because the neo-libs scream the loudest and are the ones who are heard. I would like to see more Andrew Jackson and JFK liberals.
I, too, live a contradictory lifestyle. I am Mexican, but I am not a liberal like most Hispanics. I am Catholic, so I am automatically conservative. I am not on welfare, nor am I out there yelling, “Si, se puede.” But, I do give to several charities. Mostly United Way, but I will give money to just about any kid that walks on my doorstep. My kids are raised to love baseball and apple pie, to serve their country, and to not be a burden on society.
I try to talk reason to my Mexican family and friends, but they are all Bush-haters.
Thanks for being open minded.

Posted by: JoeRWC at September 17, 2006 10:30 AM
Comment #182013

JoeRWC,

It’s hard to know what that means, to not lie 98.5 percent of the time. I’d like to see this California’s company methodology.

Both sides engage in other sorts of deceptions. A common one is to get outraged by some tactic of the other side while ignorning that your side does the same thing. It’s not a lie, but it is a distortion.

Frankly, what disturbs me most about this kind of media is that it’s a lazy way for people to get already formulated views. The conclusions come first; the actual fair-minded process that should lead to such views is circumvented. This is not a left/right issue.

Posted by: Trent at September 17, 2006 10:43 AM
Comment #182017

Trent—
98.5%
Not lying, but correct on what he is saying, including predicting future events. He knows libs and makes predictions based on past behaviors. Also, he likes to make NFL predictions on his show.

Posted by: JoeRWC at September 17, 2006 10:53 AM
Comment #182018

JoeRWC,

Funny, I was raised a Catholic, but I am not particularly religious.

I am not a Bush hater, I just think the American people should expect more from their leaders. Bush, IMHO, is a disappointment.

On the subject of the “pundits”. All of these shows are about opinion.

O’Rielly is all bluster and bullshit. He misspeaks constantly, but doesn’t have the honesty to correct himself.

Rush used to be much more entertaining, but is too strident, and sometimes substitutes opinion for fact. 98.5% correct, I don’t think so.

Hannity, so much shouting, so little fact.

Coulter? Yikes!

Savage? Next.

Ingram? Ho hum.

Franken? Brilliant writer. Sometimes belabors the point.

Preager? Bright man.

Hewitt? Likewise, though sometimes……..

Most of these folks prize their own opinions more than anybody else’s.

Opinions are like… well, you get the point.

Posted by: Rocky at September 17, 2006 10:56 AM
Comment #182027

neo-lib you just make that up sounds like I know you are but what am I what a bunch of B.S.

Posted by: Jeff at September 17, 2006 12:28 PM
Comment #182039

Well, JoeRWC, without a link, I have no way to evaluate that claim. I do know, though, from much listening, that Rush does not play fair with evidence or his critical listeners.

Posted by: Trent at September 17, 2006 1:20 PM
Comment #182040

Jeff,

Hopefully you have something to add other than trolling bait.

Posted by: Rocky at September 17, 2006 1:20 PM
Comment #182063

Rocky,

Great post! Of course you know, that’s just your opinion.

LibRick,

There are a lot of liberals that live your lifestyle. It just takes some people longer than others to get over their pseudo intellectualism.

Conservatives give to charity, tear up when a child goes missing and love to have conversations with the elderly. You can learn a lot from our older generation. Point being, we are just like you but we’re not angry and upset by the last three elections.

Posted by: Vince at September 17, 2006 3:27 PM
Comment #182093

iandanger

My goodness! Are you married to Katie the Perky or something? Let’s just beat the sh-t out of Bruce. That’ll teach him to badmouth your sweetie!

Rest

Yes, Limbaugh is about as partisan as they come. And he can be a real a—hole sometimes. But he didn’t have a radio network handed to him on a silver platter, along with a king-sized bag of cash.

It took many years and a lot of hard work for him to EARN the professional success he now enjoys.

The same can be said of many of the conservative talk show hosts on the radio today.

Posted by: ulysses at September 17, 2006 5:50 PM
Comment #182102

Vince wrote:
There are a lot of liberals that live your lifestyle. It just takes some people longer than others to get over their pseudo intellectualism.

Conservatives give to charity, tear up when a child goes missing and love to have conversations with the elderly. You can learn a lot from our older generation. Point being, we are just like you but we’re not angry and upset by the last three elections.

Vince, Vince, Vince…

“pseudo intellectualism” - another boogie man of the right. Don’t want any thinkers around here! The pseudo part comes from thinking that doesn’t agree with yours right?

BTW, thank you for being gentle and patient with me… of course, you expect me to come around to “your” generation’s way of thinking. Only, most older people I know are far more liberal than the middle aged people of my generation. I’m 50 BTW.

Are you implying that we dance with glee when children go missing and point and laugh at the elderly? What’s that about?

And why should YOU be upset with the last three elections? Your constituency wasn’t targeted for strategies to hinder voting. Read about Ohio and learn… Oh, never mind, no sense reading for yourselves, Rush and Sean already told you to ignore talk about voting irregularities in Florida and Ohio because the evil liberals are just lying and are poor losers.

Do you have children or grandchildren? What kind of America are we leaving them? We are now torturers! Remember demonizing Russia… yeah… they locked people away in secret prisons, tortured them, and charged them with secret crimes! Jeez, that is now US! We are also responsible in one way or the other for about one hundred thousand deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan.. not all were terrorists or soldiers. You feel good about that? We have left a legacy of debt to our sons and daughters for the sake of big oil, pharmaceutical companies and huge defense industries at the expense of an eroding middle class. You alright with that? But for God’s sake let’s don’t have anyone in opposition media calling out any facts and pointing out alternatives to failing policies.

I hope if the Democrats take power, Republicans will be patriotic enough to shut up and support the opposition administration because we all need to stand together. In fact, since Republicans are clearly more patriotic than Democrats, they will be gracious enough to stand down and show us how the opposition party should be humble and subserviant.

Posted by: LibRick at September 17, 2006 6:44 PM
Comment #182141

Hmmmm……Getting past the obvious claims of, “I’m a conservative and I can’t stand Air America”. Well….duh!! If you liked it, it wouldn’t be much of a contrast, would it?

Let’s see……….right wing radio has been going for nearly 20 years now. 20 year with no syndicated competition. 20 years of radio industry infrustructure and BILLIONS of dollars to advertise in ALL of those markets. And then there is Air America. With a start u[ of 6 million and only 25 affiliates you all expect Air America to dominate the market in 2 years?!!

As common sense tells us, starting a new format in a single format field with literally no money for advertising, will take a lot of time, especially with the huge right wing media machine taking shots every chance they can get. So of course, the OVERALL ratings are going to be lower. With 64 stations against Rush’s 590 stations is anybody surprised that Rush still dominates the ratings?!!

The fact is, no matter how much you might hope they will, Air Amercia is NOT GOING BANKRUPT. At least not this quarter.

The other fact is that Air america is making SMALL gains.

Arbitron Spring 2005 Numbers for Los Angeles:
167 percent increase in P12+ Share Winter-Spring 2005 (0.3 to 0.8)
300 percent increase in P12+ Share Spring 2004-Spring 2005 (0.2 to 0.8)

Arbitron Spring 2005 Numbers for Washington D.C.:
33 percent increase in P12+ Share Winter-Spring 2005 (0.3 to 0.4)
300 percent increase in P12+ Share Spring 2004-Spring 2005 (0.1 to 0.4)

Arbitron Spring 2005 Numbers for Phoenix:
38 percent increase in P12+ Share Winter-Spring 2005 (0.8 to 1.1)
267 percent increase in P12+ Share Spring 2004-Spring 2005 (0.3 to 1.1)

Arbitron Spring 2005 Numbers for Portland, Ore.:
19 percent increase in A25-54 Share Win-Spr 2005 (3.7 to 4.4).
Rank went up from #10 to #6
36 percent increase in P12+ Share Win-Spr 2005 (3.3 to 4.5).
Rank went up from #12 to #5

Arbitron Spring 2005 Numbers for Denver:
30 percent increase in P12+ AQH Win-Spr 2005 (4700 to 6100)
25 percent increase in P12+ Share Win-Spr 2005 (1.6 to 2.0)

Arbitron Spring 2005 Numbers for Cincinnati:
29 percent increase in A25-54 AQH Winter-Spring 2005 (700 to 900)
17 percent increase in A25-54 Share Winter-Spring 2005 (0.6 to 0.7)

Arbitron Spring 2005 Numbers for Honolulu:
13 percent increase in P12+ Cume Win-Spr 2005 (11100 to 12500)
Arbitron Spring 2005 Numbers for Memphis:
150 percent increase in A25-54 AQH Win-Spr 2005 (200 to 500)
150 percent increase in A25-54 Share Win-Spr 2005 (0.2 to 0.5)

Arbitron Spring 2005 Numbers for Miami:
68 percent increase in P12+ AQH Winter-Spring 2005 (6600 to 11100)
67 percent increase in P12+ Share Winter-Spring 2005 (1.2 to 2.0)

Highlights from Arbitron Spring 2005 Survey:
Increase in cumulative listening audience jumped from 1.3 million to 3.1 million within one year.
300 percent increase in L.A. in P12+ Share Spring 2004-Spring 2005
300 percent increase in Washington D.C. in P12+ Share Spring 2004-Spring 2005
267 percent increase in Phoenix in P12+ Share Spring 2004-Spring 2005

So you right wingers can bad mouth it all you want. For those of us who listen to Air America, KEEP LISTENING!! And we will see what happens.

Posted by: Matthew at September 17, 2006 8:44 PM
Comment #182144

Matthew,

Do you think that conservative talk radio started in all those markets and started on top? NO

The problem is that AA thought that they could throw somebody like Al Franken on a national network with none or very little experience at talk radio and he would be an automatic hit. Unfortunately or fortunately depending on what side you are on, there is more to talk radio than just screaming about how bad the oppostion is.

Most of the conservative talk show hosts I listen to have more going for them than just DDS (democratic derangement syndrome). If they didn’t I guarantee that even conservatives would stop listening to them.

Posted by: Keith at September 17, 2006 8:54 PM
Comment #182154

DDS, that’s really funny. Did you get that from conservative radio?

Hey look, Franken is not the only host out there. He is not even my favorite. He just had the name recognition to get the ball rolling. You may not think so but to me Franken IS funny most of the time. Maybe not as funny as he thinks he is, but funny none the less. Don’t forget, he still gets hired by Republicans to do stand up at their dinners. Something he has been doing well before AA started. So even some righties think he is funny.

Do you think that conservative talk radio started in all those markets and started on top? NO

That’s true. You are proving my point. It took Rush 4 years to get syndicated (the year was 1988). Plus Rush didn’t have any counterpoint competition or a huge company like Clear Channel working against him in 1988. Now Clear Channel has a strangle hold and has already gobbled up nearly all the stations in every market. It’s a tougher industry to break into these days. You can acknowledge that can’t you?

“Unfortunately or fortunately depending on what side you are on, there is more to talk radio than just screaming about how bad the oppostion is.”

Excuse me??!!! Right wing radio has made a career out of just that! You obviously never heard Rush during the Clinton years. Are you out of your mind?!! Now, for some reason, you think the left is going to be soft and cuddly as a reply?!! Dream on!!

Like I already said, I know you don’t like AA, Keith. You are not supposed to. It’s only for open minded people. You’ve already made up your mind. You can stick with the drug addicted, self-important, blowhard, hypocrites like Rush.

Posted by: Matthew at September 17, 2006 9:46 PM
Comment #182186

LibRick,

The reason that you find it hard to communicate with Conservatives/Republicians is:

1) They believe in the absolute morality of corportisation. In other words the “free market” is its own moral barometer. If you follow this to its logical conclusion it means that business can do not wrong because if it did, it wouldnt be in business.

(Well, got news for all you corportist freaks. Business can do all the immoral stuff it wants to, as long as its in bed with its over-seers.) Like the mob, (business, corporations) paying protection, (Washington lobbiests). Big business (and monopolies) does very well in DC these days.

and

2) They believe in total personal responsibility. Or, everyone for himself/herself. This code denounces any responsibility of big business, or governemnt or anyone being responsible for anyone else.

If you are poor, it is because you choose to be. Crippled, old, lost your job, your health insurance? Tough, get back on your feet by yourself, just dont be “my” problem.

Now, this should make it easier for you to talk to those on the opposite side of the fence than you. (or avoid the frustration, and not, which would be wiser, cause they wont listen anyway).

But, if you choose to talk to them anyway, just remember this. These people are not actually “Conservatives” or … “Republicians”.

See, the Conservative party and the Republician party has been hi-jacked by these “neo-cons” that like to call themselves conservative and republicians. Now, a neo-con is a whole different breed of people. They do not adhear to basic political Republician principles like Nixon or Goldwater or Eisenhower. (see PBS for a special on Goldwater politics this Monday night-Goldwater would turn over in his grave if he saw Bush or any Bush politician today…Yipes!!!). A true Republician would never act like these people do. And, a true Conservative! Like Pat Buccanon. NO WAY! You think that trillions in debt would ever pass Conservative muster? … I think not!

These people, these “Bush” people, are not like any people that have gone before them. They are a whole new party, a whole new breed unto themselves. And, do not by any means confuse these guys with the religious right either. There are 87 Evangelical Clergy (leaders), that have signed a patition stating that their agenda and the agenda for the Evangelical movement in the United States is way different than where this Administration is going. They are actually for the enviorment, and helping the poor and feel that these two far out weigh any agenda like abortion, homosexuality or stem cell research. So, these guys in Washington are not even in line with the religious right in this Country either.

I mention this to you, so that you will know that you are not alone. There are many many Liberals, Democrats, Independants, and yes, Conservatives and even true Republicians, that feel the same way you do.

Illegal war

Torture

Trillions in debt

No bid government contracts

Outing - CIA agents for revenge, and endangering National Security

Stacking the Supreme Court to avoid criminal charges

Fixing elections

Redistricting to win elections

cutting National Security

Open Boarders

Turning U.S. port security over to a foreign government with terrorist ties.

Illegal wire taps

Open spying on Americans

Warrentless searches

The violations of the Geneva Convention

False documents submitted to Congress to get authorization to invade a soviergn Country.

(Just a small laundry list of this current Administrations activities.)

Do you really think that this current Administration is either conservative or republician? No. It is not. Someday I pray that the rest of the Conservatives in this country and the rest of the Republicians in this country will wake up like many many have already. Until then, none of our political views will be listened to.

And old Rummy may be right. This Administrations views that this is WWIII, is, and will be, …. a self fulfilling prophesy. (If we cannot get these a-holes out of office).

Posted by: PlayNice at September 18, 2006 1:00 AM
Comment #182188

playnice,


Do you not think that Kennedy would turn over in his grave if he saw the ultra liberal lefist democrat party as it is now. Kennedy knew that to raise revenue you lower taxes and you don’t let people like Castro and Kruschev push you around.

The mistake you make is assuming that conservatives don’t care about the poor and the unemployed. Nothing can be farther from the truth. We just don’t feel that the Federal government is the solution. and yes personal responsibility is very important.

We look at the government as a distant uncle. Liberals look to it as dad.

And you really should stop listing stuff that is at best misleading at worse out and out lies.

Posted by: Keith at September 18, 2006 1:31 AM
Comment #182194

Keith,

“We look at the government as a distant uncle. Liberals look to it as dad.”

Oh come on, the neocons in office look at the govt as a red-headed stepchild.

“The mistake you make is assuming that conservatives don’t care about the poor and the unemployed. Nothing can be farther from the truth. We just don’t feel that the Federal government is the solution.”

Okay. Here we go. Keith, what is the conservatives non-government solution for the poor?

Posted by: Matthew at September 18, 2006 1:55 AM
Comment #182199

Matthew

Besides State and Local governments. How charitble organizations, churches, synagogues, mosques, family, friends, neighbors.

Posted by: Keith at September 18, 2006 2:08 AM
Comment #182204

Keith,

“Do you not think that Kennedy would turn over in his grave if he saw the ultra liberal lefist democrat party as it is now. Kennedy knew that to raise revenue you lower taxes and you don’t let people like Castro and Kruschev push you around.”

1) The “ultra liberal leftist democratic party” is now much farther to the middle than it was in Kennedys day, in order to try to pull the etreme ultra right-wing fascist neo-con republician party back to the center, (just left of Hitler). Actually we are where the old “Conservative” party used to be…politically.

Actually Pat Bucannon looks pretty good to us, he is even mistaken as a “liberal” from time to time, by us. And, it is hard to even imagine that he is actually a “Conservative”. We have much more in common with him, than with this current Administration, that is so far right of him that it makes him, look like a flippin Communist !!!).

2) Yes, Kennedy did know that to lower taxes would generate a better economy. However, Kennedy did lower the taxes on everyone, especially the poorest, and didnt lower the taxes that much on the “rich”. Just about the opposite tax program that is being done today. Whereby the wealthest 5% get 90% of the tax cuts and the middle is being crushed by the current fiscal irresponsibilities and inequeties.

3) Castro and Kruschev, I do not see Bush doing anything about Russia or Cuba. I do not see Bush doing anything about Osama. His own words state that he doesnt much care about Osama, and is not interested in persueing him. Now, that is tough on “terror”, how? By letting the person responsible for 9/11 get off scott free, and by attacking a country that never attacked us? And that is real tough on our enemys?….Yea, right! Well, I for one am real glad that Osama is not “puching us around”, … arent you?

“The mistake you make is assuming that conservatives don’t care about the poor and the unemployed. Nothing can be farther from the truth.”

Please re-read what I wrote, I did not say that. I said that these new breed of neo-cons do not care about the poor, or the enviornment or anything else that is benificial for a healthy happy America. Republicians on the other hand do. They are good people, I used to be one. After all I have learned politically lately about this Administration, I may actually still be one. Who knows? I think that if Republicians would be the same party that they were pre-1991 that I may even go back to being a Replician. (No. After I found, what the 12 years of Bush/Reagan did to the Mentally ill and homeless people in this country…..no, guess not. Guess I will stay a dirty, whinny liberal).

“We just don’t feel that the Federal government is the solution.”

Well you must. You have relinquished all of your power over to it.

” and yes personal responsibility is very important.”

Of course, to a neo con it is really important that no one is responsible for the poor, the sick, the less than perfect ideal American. (Anything resembling Hitleresk here is strickly coincidental). That way, government does not have to do anything. It can abdicate all its responsibility. Take in all the benefits, give out nothing, back to its people. Not a “government of the people, by the people and for the people”, but a perfect dictatorship.

” We look at the government as a distant uncle. Liberals look to it as dad.”

You say distance, yet you mean up close and personal, dont you? Wire taps, spying, air port strip searches, Feds pokeing into your computer, cell phones, health records, charting your buying habits. Who you trying to kid? The government of your choice is up in every oriface of your body. And, you dont even get dinner and a movie first. But, if your a big business like Halliburton (or other Bush Buddy), hey, you have nothing to worry about, do you?

But me? Im a liberal. I dont want the government in my bedroom, I dont want them to tell me how to live, what to think, what to read, and I especially do not want my government to tell me that I am less of a person because I do not meet their so called “moral standard”. A government should be a government, it is not “God” and should not play one on T.V., or in real life.

” And you really should stop listing stuff that is at best misleading at worse out and out lies.”

No lies here. If you do not understand any of these subjects, then you need to do some more reading and less listening to the propaganda and talkig points that filter down from “the hill”.

Posted by: PlayNice at September 18, 2006 2:30 AM
Comment #182205

PlayNice

Illegal war - What illegal war? The one that congress and the UN agreed to.

Torture - Panties on the head?

Trillions in debt - That’s right they was no debt before 2000.

No bid government contracts - Another new concept

Outing - CIA agents for revenge, and endangering National Security. - Another myth propagated by the left. No covert CIA agents were ever outed by this White House.

Stacking the Supreme Court to avoid criminal charges- What the hell is this about?

Fixing elections -The one that Al tried to steal in 2000 or the one he won by 3 million votes.

Redistricting to win elections - the Dems have never done this. Have you seen the districts in California?

cutting National Security - What?

Open Boarders - Do you mean allowing anybody to live on your house?

Turning U.S. port security over to a foreign government with terrorist ties. - Not even close to what the port deal was about. Nobody was turning scurity over to any foreign company.

Illegal wire taps - We’ll see when the courts are done with this, but you saying it is illegal doesn’t make it so.

Open spying on Americans - name me one.

Warrentless searches - Again name me one.

The violations of the Geneva Convention - what violations?

False documents submitted to Congress to get authorization to invade a soviergn Country- What false documents?

Posted by: Keith at September 18, 2006 2:43 AM
Comment #182210

Keith,

“Illegal war - What illegal war? The one that congress and the UN agreed to.”

After Bush got the “go ahead” from congress it was on the condition that Bush would go to the U.N. for a second time to see if we could get unalateral help from the U.N. He did not to to the U N. Also, he was to report to Congress on a continual and regualar basis, also he did not do this either. Not to mention that the information that precipitated the war was based on questionable material of a variety of grounds.
The short answer? U.N. never consulted, Congress lied to.

“Torture - Panties on the head?”

No, 3-5 prisoners bitten or killed by dogs, and at least 2 that committed suicied rather than to submit to being tortured any more.

“Trillions in debt - That’s right they was no debt before 2000.”

Yes, 3 trillion to China since 2001, and Clinton left us with a surplus…That is correct.

“No bid government contracts - Another new concept”

Pulling Billions out of our treasury weekly. For the war in Iraq. For failed homeland security clean up that is totally unresponsive to the needs of actual residents of the U.S. after Katrina and Rita. And, I dont even want to go into the no-bid contractor hired to dispose of the body bags in New Orleans. (could say something really nasty here, but better not).

“Outing - CIA agents for revenge, and endangering National Security. - Another myth propagated by the left. No covert CIA agents were ever outed by this White House.”

Lie. Lie Lie Lie. If you would pay more attention to the news you would realise the truth behind this story and the law suit. And, you could be aware enough to know that the pending war with Iran is a farce too. But, you do not want to know that Iran has grade 3 and not grade 5 uranium. No. That would mean that there is no reason for your pending cowboy war with Iran. But, then Valarie Plame could have told you that 3 years ago.

“Stacking the Supreme Court to avoid criminal charges- What the hell is this about?”

If you could see past your nose to the other side of this presidency you would know. There are many many referance sites on the web that have some 18 to 21 criminal offences that this Administration is guilty for. Most knowledgable people of this Administrations crimes do not want Bush impeached. Not when another Republician president could just pardon him. No. There is plenty of crimminal activity here. Some do not want Bush impeached. They want a trial.
(Roberts, Aito, ring any bells? Hey, Bush is planning ahead, no harm in that).

“Fixing elections -The one that Al tried to steal in 2000 or the one he won by 3 million votes.”

2000, first president of the U.S. ever elected by the Supreme Court. 2004, Dye Bolt machines broke down 13 times, each time they went back on line with different figures than when they went off line. Some machines were even taken into peoples private homes and garages before they could be checked. Many current reports say machines are as easy to alter as swipping a credit card. (read, you may learn - and company who owns machines? Republician and a name, familiar in Ohio).

“Redistricting to win elections - the Dems have never done this. Have you seen the districts in California?”

Anyone on trial in California, or is just Tom Delay, in trouble in Texas? And, Tom? It isnt Kosher to spend your campaign money on attorneys to keep you out of jail!

“cutting National Security - What?”

Well yes, havent you read the recent reports about the N.Y volunteers that over 10,000 helped with 9/11 and now 80% of them are getting sick with lung disease. Homeland security just cut their budget for N.Y. The funds were redirected to help things like a petting zoo in Ohio and a coffee stand in Colorado, etc… Maybe if you read more of listened to something other than Rush Limbaugh, youd learn something.

“Open Boarders - Do you mean allowing anybody to live on your house?”

No. I mean Bushs wonderful policy of helping big companies to get their employees illegally. You know, out-sourcing, in-sourcing, screw-the-American-worker-resourcing. I mean that it is hard to be tough on “terror” when you have a deal with business that requires that anyone can walk into your country, at any time, and take American Jobs away from Americans. That is what I mean. I mean that when you are giveing away American jobs, with wide open boarders, that it isnt a real stretch to assume that it is only poor Mexicans are the only people that have the use of those open plains.

” Turning U.S. port security over to a foreign government with terrorist ties. - Not even close to what the port deal was about. Nobody was turning scurity over to any foreign company.”

Yes they were. That country is not like us. This is Bushs problem all along. He puts everything in U.S. terms. Iraq is not like us, that is why we will never win there just like Viet Nam. The port deal is the same thing. Here, we have companies owned by people, there they have companies owned by the government. The companies are the government. And, you say that that government, that country, does not have terrorist ties?……PLEESE, dont even go there!

“Illegal wire taps - We’ll see when the courts are done with this, but you saying it is illegal doesn’t make it so.”

And, it being in court? Doesnt make it legal or right even if you want it to go all the way up to Bushs hand picked court of ditto heads. (re: Aito)(The Bush plan to stay out of prison has begun).

“Open spying on Americans - name me one.”

OK, YOU. If you want two,,,,,ME.

“Warrentless searches - Again name me one.”

Air line travel. Guantanmo. Abu Grabe. The internet, cell phones, email………….

” The violations of the Geneva Convention - what violations?”

Torture in Iraq, Torture in Cuba. Torture in secret bases that Condi, doesnt want to talk about. And, any incarceration of prisioner of war that does not involve due process, or compliance with “humane” treatment of prisoners.

(In case youve missed it, it was in the news last week. I am supprised you missed it. Also, Bush wants to make the rules of torture less “vague”…..errr….he means, “I need to redefine the Genieva Convention rules of ethics in order for my men not to be tried for “war crimes”….hey juicy stuff, you ott to read more).

“False documents submitted to Congress to get authorization to invade a soviergn Country- What false documents?”

Oh you remember those little things? Those are the documents that convinced, (on false and changed/altered and with points of omission)Congress, inclucing some prominent Democrats, to go along with this “war” in Iraq. You know? When Kerry was against the war, before he was for it, or visa versa? You know…..That really really big crock of s&it, when Chaney say that there “was no doubt - that Sadam had WMDs”? Downing Street, ring a bell? Tony Blare? Or is it Tony Blair? Well, if you read the UK papers you will note that old Tony, he doesnt have much time left because of his pack of lies about Iraq. Too bad we can not say the same, about our resident lier!

Posted by: PlayNice at September 18, 2006 3:50 AM
Comment #182234

A word or two about AirAmerica:

It has not been all that popular—-certainly not as popular as the left seemed to think it would be. It was hailed as the single alternative to the wave of right wing hosts, led by Limbaugh and supplemented by others. It may not be a failure, but it sure doesn’t qualify as a success.

Al Franken can be funny, but usually not when he’s too strident and biting. Hate isn’t normally funny. When he’s sardonic and sarcastic, he can be a laugh.

Janeane Garafolo is just too angry to be funny. She has had a small movie career playing slightly cute but not beautiful people. It is not a springboard to universal popularity.

Randi Rhodes—now here is a woman of no class. When Ken Lay died, she laughed and made jokes at his expense. I’m no Ken Lay fan—was hoping for a long jail term for him—but I don’t find humor in insulting people who have just died. It showed the bitterness and hatred inside of Rhodes, and of those listeners who laughed along.

AirAmerica subsists on hatred of the right. Hatred is like an all-sugar diet. It brings on great energy, but its not long lived. It has peaks and valleys, not a good thing for a daily radio show.

Posted by: joebagodonuts at September 18, 2006 9:13 AM
Comment #182256

I think annhole should give all her sheepwhoremoney to Air America; as contrition for all her hate and lies.

Posted by: Dave1-20-09 at September 18, 2006 10:50 AM
Comment #182264

playnice,
________________________________________________________________
“Trillions in debt - ThatⳠright they was no debt before 2000.”

“Yes, 3 trillion to China since 2001, and Clinton left us with a surplus…That is correct.”
________________________________________________________________

See when you throw stuff like this out it shows that you aren’t serious about the facts.

The national debt when Clinton left office was approx. 5.8 Trillion dollars.
_________________________________________________________________
“Open spying on Americans - name me one.”

OK, YOU. If you want two,,,,,ME.

“Warrentless searches - Again name me one.”

Air line travel. Guantanmo. Abu Grabe. The internet, cell phones, email………….
__________________________________________________________________

Again. What are you talking about? Do you sleep with aluminum foil on your head? Do you see federal agents under your bed? Are the black helicopters hovering over your house?

The administration and the NSA don’t really care what kind of Pizza you order or if you’re calling phone sex lines. But ya know what if Al-Qaeda is communicating with you from overseas, I would want them to know.

_________________________________________________________________
Lie. Lie Lie Lie. If you would pay more attention to the news you would realise the truth behind this story and the law suit. And, you could be aware enough to know that the pending war with Iran is a farce too. But, you do not want to know that Iran has grade 3 and not grade 5 uranium. No. That would mean that there is no reason for your pending cowboy war with Iran. But, then Valarie Plame could have told you that 3 years ago.
_______________________________________________________________

Again. Nobody outed Valerie Plame. It has been established that she wasn’t a covert operative for more than 5 years before her name came out. Not only that but there seems to be some dispute as to whether her wonderful hubby or Armitage gave her name to the press first. You can only beat this dead horse for so long.

Posted by: Keith at September 18, 2006 11:25 AM
Comment #182269

Well I can not say this suprises me.
90 % of America never heard of Air America.
However these red neck corn fed farmers and
factory workers sure get their Brainwashing
Rush Limpball fix daily. The Blow hard gets
Two hours of air space to feed his synthetic values
and one sided lies into the repetiative
motion numbed minds of the working class.
Forward thinking people can no longer carry
on a conversation with them. Between
Fox news
and Rush alot are left feeling nothing but
hate for anyone who fails to agree with them.
They might not have been as bad at one time
but let me tell you None of what is pumped into
the minds of these people has any value left in it.
Fox can’t seem to tell Facts and therefore
you are left talking to some pretty stupid people.
You know the Kind who still think Saddam did 911
and WMD were found. LOL LOL LOL on the other hand
Rush is to busy with his Oxycontin
( synthetic heroine) To realise just how much he has become
the Republican Jim Jones he lost his flavor years
ago but the masses keep pertaking out of habit.

I and many others feel if this is the only option
No thanks we will opt out.
I refuse to be made stupid for the partys
sake and sadly they have become pretty stupid.

Posted by: Honey P at September 18, 2006 11:52 AM
Comment #182272

Honey

I’m sure you listen to him all the time. How else can you make a determination as to the content or quality of his show.

Posted by: Keith at September 18, 2006 11:58 AM
Comment #182286

Keith,

“Besides State and Local governments. How charitble organizations, churches, synagogues, mosques, family, friends, neighbors.”

(Putting aside the very small portion that charitable organizations do.) Oh, I see, you want to pass the buck to the already strained State and local govts. Brilliant! That will surely solve poverty and unemployment.

Forgetting for a second the Federal policies that created much of the unemployment and poverty (dropping import tariffs, free trade deals, tax cuts for offshoreing manufaturing, undercutting unions, etc.), would you also like to stop using federal money to help 3rd world hunger and poverty in continents like Africa and Asia? Is that too generous as well or should THEIR state and local govts take care of it?

Posted by: Matthew at September 18, 2006 12:49 PM
Comment #182289

Joe,

“AirAmerica subsists on hatred of the right. Hatred is like an all-sugar diet. It brings on great energy, but its not long lived. It has peaks and valleys, not a good thing for a daily radio show.”

Then it begs the question, why has it worked for the right wing radio? It’s been a solid 20 years.

Posted by: Matthew at September 18, 2006 1:00 PM
Comment #182291

Playnice,

You have done a masterful job of response. I was collecting links to the truth of Valery Plame’s covert status, the reality of the non-issue of the border (it isn’t going to change and is just being used as a distraction), etc. etc. when I came back and saw your post. GREAT. Sing it.
You are doing a fantastic job of ripping keith a new one (figuratively, of course), but I doubt it will sink in.

Keith -
Are you aware that every major cellular phone company in the country turned over sensitive and confidential cusotmer billing information without a warrant? …with one exception: Sprint did not comply!

All those who respect and honor the U.S. Constitution, switch to using a Sprint cell phone, now!

Posted by: RGF at September 18, 2006 1:08 PM
Comment #182298

Sorry, but I have heard Al Frankin’s radio show and it is very good. Very informative and well presented. Unlike so many of the conservative ranters, the Air America radio shows focus on real issues and the truth as opposed to your Rush types that say to hell with facts and just attack anything and anyone they disagree with.

Posted by: rnbwlaw at September 18, 2006 1:45 PM
Comment #182301

RGF

Are you aware that all the phone companies gave the government was phone numbers called not from where and no customer information.

Posted by: Keith at September 18, 2006 1:52 PM
Comment #182304

David R. Remer

…its the Lincoln phenomena. You can fool all the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but, you can’t fool all the people all the time.

Actually I think the quote came from P.T. Barnum
LOL

As for talk radio, well, I just love to listen to Rush on a long driving trip. I am guaranteed to stay awake from either laughter or anger…

I can’t find any liberal talk shows in the areas I travel, which is just fine, as I would most likely agree with them and what would be the point? I think it is more important to know your opponent than to spend time with those you agree with.

One seldom learns anything new talking with those who agree with you.

Posted by: Linda H. at September 18, 2006 2:00 PM
Comment #182305

Keith,

even if that is so, SO?

Should the government know who you called and when?

Posted by: RGF at September 18, 2006 2:00 PM
Comment #182376

I’m a bit surprised that George Soros doesn’t just fund Air america out of his pocket change. I hope he does because if it does go bankrupt we will once again hear about the need for the “fairness doctrine” to force stations to carry Air america even if no one listens. I tried listening once just to get an idea of what Franken and crew were discussing. I had to change the station out of sheer boredom. It was clear to me that, at least the day I listened, Franken did not prepare anything and just sat at the mike rambling about how much he disliked George Bush but without really saying much in particular.
My hope is that liberals spend good money to keep Air America on the air and all good liberals waste their time listening to it.

Posted by: Carnak at September 18, 2006 5:29 PM
Comment #182396

Our local conservative talk radio station now uses FOX News for its news reports. I like their slogan, “We give you the facts, and let you decide.” Decide what? Whether or not to believe the facts?

Posted by: Hotshot at September 18, 2006 6:30 PM
Comment #182398

Keith, Keith, Keith,

“Are you aware that all the phone companies gave the government was phone numbers called not from where and no customer information.”

What do you think the govt is gonna do with those numbers? Play the lottery? They are gonna put them in a database (or Choicepiont will) or tap the line. Probably both. In other words, VIOLATE THE 4TH AMENDMENT. I know that you would be fine with a ‘republican’ police state but not me. I like my freedoms. Besides the NSA thing is such a waste of time. It’s all about more presidential power. I know if Clinton was doing this your righties would be going through the roof. And I would be with you. Just go though FISA. This is exactly what it was set up for.

Carnak,

“My hope is that liberals spend good money to keep Air America on the air and all good liberals waste their time listening to it.”

I think we have the same hope. All liberals and middle-of-the-roaders KEEP LISTENING!! Though, I hardly think it is a waste of time learning about what the Govt is up to.

Posted by: Matthew at September 18, 2006 6:42 PM
Comment #182422

I’ve never heard Franken’s show. I did listen to his latest book on tape and found it very thoughtful and at times funny. Franken is too sarcastic at times and his constant inside joke is how aware he is of his own self-absorption which to his credit he then riffs on.

It’s all a bit too much “I’m so aware of myself I can’t really take my success seriously but hey look at me anyway!” At times this is incredibly funny as when his “daily affirmations with stuart smalley” met up with Michael Jordan on SNL. That bit killed me.

But Franken is a lot smarter and more honest than Limbaugh, Hannity, O’Reilly, and the rest combined if that makes any sense. I just don’t know who has all this time to listen to these guys. Do their audiences work for a living or are they all retired or self-employed? Are there that many conservative construction workers driving around in their trucks at the right time? I’m astonished they have much of an audience at all.

Posted by: Chris2x at September 18, 2006 8:52 PM
Comment #182428

JoeRWC said,

On Sundays, I like to watch a tv show with a cranky old man, who’s name I cant remember. He usually has three libs and Pat Buchanan on his show. He has a rapid fire format and usually discusses five or six topics in half an hour. He doesnt let anyone lecture and makes guests deliver good short answers. Highly entertaining. You probably know who I am talking about. If not someone out there help me out.
.


You are probably thinking of John Mclaughlin and the Mclaughlin Group. He signs off “Bye, Bye.”

Posted by: Chris2x at September 18, 2006 9:14 PM
Comment #182446

Matthew

Look up President Clinton and the Echelon program

” Immediately after coming to office in January 1993, President Clinton added to the corporate espionage machine by creating the National Economic Council, which feeds intelligence to “select” companies to enhance US competitiveness. The capabilities of ECHELON to spy on foreign companies is nothing new, but the Clinton administration has raised its use to an art:”

http://fly.hiwaay.net/~pspoole/echelon.html
(sorry having trouble with links)

Posted by: Keith at September 18, 2006 11:34 PM
Comment #182465

How about the far right late night show host? The right is good on radio shows because old people listen to radio not the new generation!!! So if the right is doing good for people over 80 congrats!!!

Posted by: jim conway at September 19, 2006 2:26 AM
Comment #182469

Keith,

Hey dude, try to format your responses to me in a more orderly manner. You are giving me a brain freeze man, can not tell your post/from mine.

THE NATIONAL DEBT:
You had a rebuttal to me about the National Debt. I said that Bush has gotten us in such a debt that our great grandchildrens, grandchildren, will be in hock up to their teeth, but of course you said,

“See when you throw stuff like this out it shows that you aren’t serious about the facts.
The national debt when Clinton left office was approx. 5.8 Trillion dollars.”

(Spoken like a true Bushco Ditto-head. All BS and no facts).

You may want to actually go on line and research your data, cause what ever source you are using, doesnt hold water. Here is the actual facts about our National Debt situation.

(Something that Rush knows very little about, because after all, these are the real facts).

http://zfacts.com/p/480.html

The last paragraph from this page explains that all the Presidents since WWII have worked to bring down the National Debt, except of course our medely of favorite Republicians like the following Administrations - (in order):

Reagan, Reagan, Bush, Bush II, and Bush II …

(Oh and Keith,,,,,,Clinton is one of the ones, not mentioned, therefore, did NOT contribute to the National Debt….! As only those mentioned,,,, were real debt supporters, inhansors, inablers, or as I like to refer to them…..”Debt Whoremongers” :-)

“Since all Presidents from Truman on have reduced the gross federal debt except Reagan and the Bushes, the part remaining from WWII is found by subtracting their debt contributions (and the FRS contribution) from the current federal debt total. “

In other words, if you want to find the real amount of the National Debt left over and yet still unpaid from WWII, you will have to take todays Debt figure, subtract what Reagan (2 terms); Bush (1 term); and Bush (1+ term to date); and subtract what they have added, when you do that, you will have the actual debt left over from WWII.

Now Clinton added how much to our National Debt????? Hummm??? You subtract how much from Clintons debt increase??? Hummmm??? Zero, Nada, Zip, Zilch, Bubkuss…!

(Side bar) * Air America is a very dangerous thing for the current Administration. It allows and encourages free thought. And, an American that can actually think for him/her self, is a very dangerous thing indeed, to this Administration, and its supporters!!!

To be continued…..

Posted by: PlayNice at September 19, 2006 2:56 AM
Comment #182473

Keith;

RE: SPYING ON AMERICANS

You say, “Again. What are you talking about? Do you sleep with aluminum foil on your head? Do you see federal agents under your bed? Are the black helicopters hovering over your house?

The administration and the NSA don’t really care what kind of Pizza you order or if youre calling phone sex lines. But ya know what if Al-Qaeda is communicating with you from overseas, I would want them to know.”

Well, if I was talking to Al-Qaeda then I would want my govenment to know also. But it is not constitutional to evesdrop on all Americans, some 300 million people, on the off chance that a few hundred, or a handfull of them, might be getting orders from Al-Qaeda, to blow up the water tank next to your house. See we have little obsticals to that in this country. Other countries do not have any obsticals to their governemnt spying on them; but, we have little things like the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and the FISA laws. Now, spying on people in this country can be done legally, within those boundries and within the laws of this land. But, of course, Bush does not want to conform to the laws of this country, he thinks that he is above the law.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/444577p-374325c.html

A small paragraph from this page states that Judge Taylor wrote:

“Taylor wrote that President Bush overstepped his authority and ruled the National Security Agency’s program violates the Administrative Procedures Act, the doctrine of separation of powers, and the First and Fourth amendments to the Constitution.”

Now the FISA laws give the president the right to spy on people. All he has to do is to just go into court up to 3 days AFTER THE SPYING, and request that he can spy on them and present the reason. At this time AFTER THE FACT..the FISA court will approve the continued servielance of will deny it. (Less than 1% of Federal Spying cases, are ever turned down - its called “probable cause”.) But, with the use of the FISA court which is perfectly legal, at least there is some oversight and the President or his minions can not spy on oh say, Democrats that might be against his policies, Political opponents, persons of special interest other than National Security, Liberals, Homosexuals, People on this blog, Judges, Union Leaders, the NAACP, …and I could go on and on and on….

The reason that the President does not want to go to the FISA Court (up to 3 days later, after the fact), to get the right, or the approval to continue his spying on Americans (you and me), is because it is awfully hard to prepare a blanket justification for say, 1.2 million AT&T cell phones or 18.7 million Yahoo bloggers. (Ficticious figures, but you get the point). No wonder the Bush Administration finds it extremely difficult to get search warrents, or show “just cause” to spy on over 200 million people, just because some one some, some where, might be saying something about “terrorism”. (UTTER NONSCENSE - I am sure the Hitler had a real good reason for the oppression of his people, just before 1939-1940 too. Back then, everyone was spying on everyone else, and no one was “safe”, from their governemnt either.) Would this program have stopped a Timmothy Mc Vay? NO. Of course not. There is not enough agents or computer main frame space to put all this meaningless crap anyway, and none of this has ever stopped one terrorist. It is spying on Americans for political purposes only. If they really wanted to spy on “Al Quida”, no one is stopping them.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/050306NSA.htm

Keith, you need to wake up and smell the coffee and stop sniffing the kool-aid.

A small clip from the above web site:

“The President’s Duty is To Uphold the Law, Not Break It
The President is bound by his oath of office to “preserve, protect, and defend” the Constitution of the United States, and to take care that the laws are faithfully executed.

But if the President is violating a federal law, he can hardly be faithfully executing that law. And if he is violating his oath, he can hardly be defending the Constitution. “

In short, the law is the law, and it is the law for everyone. The President of the United States is no more above the “law” than you or I am. If you want America to run differently, then you need to go to somewhere, where they have a government, that is not run, like a Democracy!

Continued…….

Posted by: PlayNice at September 19, 2006 3:54 AM
Comment #182476

Keith,

The last point you made was about Valerie Plame:

“Again. Nobody outed Valerie Plame. It has been established that she wasn’t a covert operative for more than 5 years before her name came out. Not only that but there seems to be some dispute as to whether her wonderful hubby or Armitage gave her name to the press first. You can only beat this dead horse for so long.”

VALERIE PLAME - CONTINUING TO BEAT THIS “DEAD HORSE” (Maybe it will get up and walk, again).

Source:

http://www.sourcewatch.org/wiki.phtml?title=Valerie_Plame
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plame_affair

The following is an interesting artical although it is very old. It has the facts straight but it is built upon the thesis that certain people surrounding the President were involved in the outing of Valerie Plame, but not necessarily the President. It ends on a note.asking the President to ditch these detractors (neo-cons) and to regain his Presidency, (and to end the war which was propogated upon false documentation). However, as this artical is 3 years old, and in light of the events since then,, I still believe that President Bush is not a passive “victum” in this series of events, but a willing participant. Certain facts have come out since 2001 that would lead the American public to the conclusion that even before President Bush was ignogerated (Jan. 21, 2001) he was looking for a reason, any reason, to go into Iraq to defeat Sadam. (Something Bushs father did not want to do in 1991, and the interesting thing about that is, that Sadam is on trial now for crimes that pre date the first “Gulf War” (1991), and said “Crimes”, were never thought to be worthy enough in 1991 to go after Sadam for, but now in 2001 all of a sudden, now they are). In other words, everyone says well, Sadam gased the curds. Well, yes…In the 1980s. And he had WMDs. Well, yes. In the 1980s. So, why not go in in 1991, but in 2002, hey….NOW, now its really really important to every American, that we depose Sadam??? Yea, right!!! Because of “TERRORISTS”? Yea, right!!! Because of the nerve gas that since 1988 has all but degraded? Yea, right!!! Anyway, here is a artical that does give Bush the benifit of the doubt about the Yellow Cake Lie, and sees Bush as some sort of an innocent by-stander. So maybe this artical will be more to your likeing. (As I said, the facts seam to be straight up, anyway).

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j100303.html

But, the fact is that Plame was outed by the white house, and Plame was a CIA agent, and Plame was undercover and deep undercover with a field specialty in WMDs in the Mid-East. One of her last reports within the Security Agency was to report her opinions on the WMD or capabilities of Iran on Nucular Power. (And of course her knowledge that was imparted to her husband for that artical debunking Iraqs Nucular capabilities). Estimates on Iran are, and have not changed since 2003, that Iran has grade 3 capabilities which is used in Nucular Power Plants, but Iran does not have grade 5 capabilities yet that would be required for Nucular Assalt Weapons. However again, this does not seam to diswade the Bush Administration in trying to take Iran on for its “Nucular Weapons” (which is a lie). Bush continues to stay non-communacado with Iran. And, seams to be saying to Iran…”You got Nuks, we know it, and we are comming to get you”. So, what is Iran going to do? We wont talk to them. We dont want to listen. We seam to want to be on the fast track headed towards war.

I dont know about you dude, but if I were Iran, Id be sweating it. Having the most powerful country in the world hell-bent on war? Id be trying like crazy to change my #3 into a #5.

End…

Posted by: PlayNice at September 19, 2006 5:02 AM
Comment #182515

Keith,

“The capabilities of ECHELON to spy on foreign companies is nothing new, but the Clinton administration has raised its use to an art:”

Whoa!! (If what the cite claims is true. Big ‘if’.) So since Clinton did it, it’s okay?!! That’s your excuse? That has got to be a first, coming from a right winger. Unbelieveable! Admitting Bush broke the law and his oath of office is just too much for you to handle. Instead you revert to the tried and true fallback position. “Duh…..What about Clinton?” Give me a brake!!

Putting aside the obvious lack of an excuse. If the writers claims are true of Clinton than he was wrong to sign off on the program as well. See, I don’t love Clinton the way most righties LOVE George W. In my book they would both be wrong. The difference is that Clinton is no longer in office and Bush is. We can do something about it now. It’s called accountablity. Your party should look it up sometime. It an important part of a democracy.

Posted by: Matthew at September 19, 2006 10:41 AM
Comment #183069

Talk radio really isn’t that profitable to begin with.

What palnet do you live on SD? Rush’s last contract was for close to 200 MILLION. No profit? Be serious. There are hundreds of profitable News/talk radio stations all over the U.S. Please seperate your wishes and your fantasies from reality.

Posted by: Aceinthehole at September 21, 2006 3:26 PM
Comment #204277

Overdose deaths can be intentional or unintentional, and they can result from both licit and illicit drug abuse. Drugs commonly implicated in overdose must be in public lists! WBR LeoP

Posted by: Leo at January 21, 2007 9:42 AM
Comment #204298

Overdose deaths can be intentional or unintentional, and they can result from both licit and illicit drug abuse. Drugs commonly implicated in overdose must be in public lists! WBR LeoP

Posted by: Leo at January 21, 2007 2:35 PM
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