An Israeli Victory Must Be Clear, Decisive

Despite the Bush Administration’s hypocritical demands on Israel to appease the enemy, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has opted instead to escalate Israel’s necessary offensive against Hezbollah terrorists.

Just days ago, Israel's security cabinet approved a measure that would have sent an additional 40,000 troops into Lebanon to finish a job that began 31 days ago. But at the very last minute, pressure from the Bush Administration forced Israel to halt an operation that was already underway, thereby imperiling the lives of Israeli soldiers. According to one senior Israeli officer, the spineless decisionmaking process cost the IDF lives.

"A military force always needs to be on the offensive, pushing forward and keeping the enemy on its toes," he said. "When you sit still for too long, you turn into a target and you begin to get hit again and again."

President Bush, however, has sworn himself to a diplomatic resolution to a war that he should not be negotiating over. While unyielding in his own War on Terror, where Israeli lives are at stake, the president appears overly eager to discuss alternatives.

Since delaying Israel's offensive, more than 15 Israeli soldiers have been killed and many more have been wounded.

Today, PM Olmert gave the green light to the IDF to expand the ground invasion in accordance with the original security cabinet plan. Said one high ranking defense official, "We gave the diplomatic process a chance, it failed and now we will achieve our goals militarily."

The aim of the IDF operation is to reach the Litani river by week's end. Another 4-6 weeks will be needed to eradicate Hezbollah from the region.

Still, the president's latest manifestation as a weak-kneed appeaser of terrorists cannot be overstressed. Israel faces a brutal enemy on its northern border, whose ties to the rogue regimes of Iran and Syria makes this war a must-win for Israel and, by extension, the United States. That the president has lost sight of this fact leaves one to question his supposed resoluteness in confronting terror where ever it may exist.

More importantly, should Israel agree to a cease-fire, or, more accurately, a postponement of hostilities, the safety of the Jewish state will be jeopardized. In the eyes of the Arab/Islamist world, the once invincible Israeli military will have been defeated by a group of terrorists, leading many to question their own "truces" with the Jewish state.

By far, Iran would reap the most benefit from a postponement of hostilities. The Islamic Republic's unrestrained belligerence toward Israel has already proven to be a winning recipe among both radical elements and commoners in the Middle East. Add to that a Hezbollah victory, and Iran's stock will most surely soar.

Israel must secure a decisive victory in the coming weeks. I supported Israel's offensive when it first began, and I continue to support it today. However, by entering into this war, Israel took a big gamble. Israel cannot just win this war, but rather they must crush their opponent beyond any doubt. Anything less will be viewed as a victory for Hezbollah while only imperiling Israel in the immediate future.

Related Article: Hezbollah Terrorist Admits To Iranian Training

Posted by Dr Politico at August 11, 2006 4:12 PM
Comments
Comment #174887

Israel took a huge gamble in taking the hard line approach. They can not simply call it “a done job and walk away” unless Hezbollah is completely destroyed. That will not happen. Hezbollah is as much of a movement as it is an existing group of people. You can kill the people, but the movement will continue. The harder Israel pushed, the quicker Hezbollah will move beyond their reach. Does anyone thing that 6 months after Israel’s military operation stops, that there will not be an completely rearmed and ready Hezbollah to continue these attacks?

We have to build up very strong ties with Lebanon and help their army and police prevent Hezbollah from gaining more political power in Lebanon. Do we have the focus and resources to make this happen?

Posted by: tony at August 11, 2006 4:34 PM
Comment #174891

Doc Politico,

Unless Israel is prepared to level Lebanon to the ground and totally wipe out it’s population, Israel will never secure a decisive victory against Hezbollah.

By attacking the symptoms (Lebanon), instead of the illness (Syria, and Iran), Israel has only gained more enemies in the region, as even those on the fence in Lebanon, have now suffered the indignity and loss of life, home, and security, that this ridiculous “war” has brought.

Appeaser, my ass.

Posted by: Rocky at August 11, 2006 4:41 PM
Comment #174893

Oh, and BTW,

Mr. Bush knew exactly what he was doing when we delayed for a month, any effort to stop the fighting.

Posted by: Rocky at August 11, 2006 4:46 PM
Comment #174896

He sure did. He is getting the rest of the world to help put peacekeeping forces into the area so that it won’t be the US, UK and Isreal against the entire Arab world while the rest of the world sits back and judges as they have for the past 30 or so years.

It’s time, as I said in the middle column, for the WORLD to tell both sides to KNOCK IT OFF. If we had signed the original ‘peace treaty’ nothing would have changed. Now, hopefully, we will see some result.

Posted by: Rhinehold at August 11, 2006 4:53 PM
Comment #174901

Rocky,

President Bush should be the first to recognize that wars can take longer than one month. Now he’s calling for the very “cut and run” strategy that he has condemned Democrats for touting.

BTW, I doubt it’s possible for Israel to gain more enemies in a region where they don’t even have a single friend.

Your suggestion that Israel is attacking on the wrong front — Lebanon instead of Syria/Iran — is slightly off. All need to be responded to, but the IMMEDIATE threat is in Lebanon, where some 15,000 rockets were being pointed at Israel. Once that threat is removed, Israel can consider its options regarding Syria and Iran.

Posted by: Dr Politico at August 11, 2006 5:00 PM
Comment #174902

Doc,

“All need to be responded to, but the IMMEDIATE threat is in Lebanon, where some 15,000 rockets were being pointed at Israel.”

Who exactly holds Hezbollah’s leash?

That’s where the pressure should have been applied to begin with, not in neighborhoods where the collateral damage has been immense, and that is precisely where Israel’s PR battle took the most damage.

Posted by: Rocky at August 11, 2006 5:07 PM
Comment #174905

Rocky,

PR has no place in war. Again, something that President Bush most surely recognizes.

I understand what you’re saying. I know exactly who holds the leash, but the weapons have already been smuggled to Lebanon. Whether they await orders from Iran/Syria is therefore moot.

The threat is in Lebanon, not Syria, whose military is incapable of harming Israel, nor Iran from where Israel is sufficiently distanced. Iran is a long-term threat not an immediate one and Syria is simply a joke.

Posted by: Dr Politico at August 11, 2006 5:23 PM
Comment #174908

Dr Politico,
PR is very important, since it determines who wins the “hearts and minds.”

The error is in believing Hezbollah is on a leash. Hezbollah is an organic part of the political scene in Lebanon. Syria influences Lebanon as a whole, and Iran provides Hezbollah with money and weaponry.

The problem is that Hezbollah (and the more moderate, secular Amal) represent the Shias, both as a fighting arm and as a political arm. It is impossible to separate Hezbollah from the Shia population because Hezbollah represents their political aspirations. And no, the Shias of southern Lebanon do not define themselves solely in terms of the love or hatred of Israel. The Shias have their own concerns.

Destroying Hezbollah requires depopulating southern Lebanon, southern Beirut, and the Bekaa Valley. If it were somehow possible to destroy the military arm of Hezbollah, an identifical organization would replace it, because the “hearts and minds” of the Shias would remain the same, if not hardened even further. Depopulation of an area is a grave crime, and I am not willing to see the US support such a crime.

Rhinhold, I agree. The US has no business in supporting the perpetual wars between the tribes of the Levant.

With the Camp David Accords, the US essentially bribed Egypt and Israel to make peace. The same approach could work with Syria and the Golan Heights, and with Lebanon and the Shebaa Farms area. Instead of having US taxpayers writing checks to US arms manufacturers, who then rush boms & missiles to Israel, which proceeds to kill hundreds of innocent civilians, and destroy the nascent Lebanese democracy, why not use a little common sense?

Why not have the US taxpayers write checks to separate & placate the combatants?

Posted by: phx8 at August 11, 2006 5:38 PM
Comment #174914

Bush is a “hypocrite,” a “weak-kneed appeaser,”; he’s “overly eager to discuss alternatives.” Ah well, time for new leadership, I guess. It’s not clear to me how Israel can hope to crush a terrorist organization beyond all doubt, or how devastating Lebanon hurts Iran, but I guess you know what you’re talking about. Did you really hint in a follow-up comment that Israel should attack Syria and Iran next? What exactly is your vision of the middle east? Can it be achieved militarily? All diplomacy is apparently useless, right?

Posted by: Trent at August 11, 2006 6:05 PM
Comment #174917

And how does a civilized society justify this cowardly act?

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=1173702006

The basics: civilians, UN peacekeepers and Lebanese soldiers were fleeing souther Israel (checked out and approved by Israel forces to leave) and on the road, they were attacked by at least one unmanned drone aircraft, killing at least 6 civilians and injuring over 30. The Israeli military had check this convey to make sure no Hezbollah militants were hiding among these civilians… so they new ALL these people were innocent civilians. Yet, on an open road, they were attacked from the air.

Again, how could anyone justify this atrocity? And no, between hezbollah and Israel, neither hold the moral high ground. There will be no winners with this… no gain for Israel, but plenty of recruitment material for the terrorists.

Posted by: tony at August 11, 2006 6:12 PM
Comment #174921

Doctor:

“PR has no place in war. Again, something that President Bush most surely recognizes.”

That’s pretty funny.

Well, thankfully, the insurgency in Iraq is in it’s last throes, and it was “Mission Accomplished” with the army “we have.” With that Iraq thing cleaned up, maybe we can take Syria and Iran to the cleaners now—since the Israelis have begged off, evidently.


Posted by: Tim Crow at August 11, 2006 6:19 PM
Comment #174925

What occurs to me, looking at this, is that the Israeli Defense Force has given itself a very difficult objective to succeed in: the effective destruction of Hezbollah.

They could have settled for something like: securing the Northern border against rocket attack. BAM. Achievable, and you’re not backing down in the face of a threat. It’s defensive, so nobody can blame you for striking back. You can then appeal to the rest of the world and say “could you help us with these assholes?” Given what we’ve since learned about the hesitancy of Iran and Syria about this, it could have been easy to pull a Jack Ryan and cut off their gun money until they’re throwing rocks in the street.

Unfortunately, we’re dealing with the Bush Doctrine here, which tries to play God with the situation. Not every defense of Israel is created equal. Unfortunately, Republicans don’t understand that force is just one way of putting our enemies at a disadvantage.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at August 11, 2006 6:33 PM
Comment #174932

““PR has no place in war. Again, something that President Bush most surely recognizes.””

They don’t call it Shock And Awe for nothing!

Wheeeeeewwwww….. I about choked on my dinner…

Posted by: tony at August 11, 2006 6:50 PM
Comment #174940

Here is a quick bit of math.
One Katyusha rocket costs $150. Hezbollah supposedly had 10,000. If all of those were already either launched or destroyed (doubtful) it would have cost Hezbollah $1.5 million.

One Israeli tank costs $2 million. Three were lost in one day.

Cease fire on Sunday? Well, I will believe it when I see it.

But this little episode was one of the stupidest, most bloody-minded, unnecessary, incompetent acts of Israel/US policy in my lifetime.

Posted by: phx8 at August 11, 2006 7:14 PM
Comment #174941

phx8-

Take a long deep breath… you’re not dead yet. (Some much time, soooo many idiots with guns.)

Posted by: tony at August 11, 2006 7:17 PM
Comment #174945

Today,
True. And we have already seen Iraq, which was bloodier, stupider, and involved a lot more lying.

One of these days, I will trot out the worst speech in modern world history, the State of the Union Address from 2003. It is the last third of the speech which earns the superlative “worse.” It is an argument for the US to go to war, and everything in it is wrong. Nothing Bush says is true.

I stand in awe. Bush is truly, truly awful.

Posted by: phx8 at August 11, 2006 7:24 PM
Comment #174946

“I stand in awe. Bush is truly, truly awful.”

And you thought SHOCK and AWE was only for Iraq….???

Posted by: tony at August 11, 2006 7:29 PM
Comment #174948

phx8:

Just out of curiosity—several months ago, the Republican argument for voting against the Dems was that they were out to impeach Dear Leader.

Now, noone even mentions the ‘I’ word, especially the Dems. Do they fear that this playing to the left-roots placates all the wrong people, or do they think that might motivate the Right? Is it a matter of letting sleeping dogs lie, or are they really hatching an impeachment party in Janurary if they win? Hmm?

Posted by: Tim Crow at August 11, 2006 7:33 PM
Comment #174951

Tim -

There are far to many worries to be focused on Impeachment… probably for far longer than Bush will be in office. It’s a sad sort of job security, but I bet it will work.

Posted by: tony at August 11, 2006 7:42 PM
Comment #174953

Tim,
It may play out like Iran-Contra. With only two years, and insufficient votes to take Bush out of office, it might make more sense to simply investigate and reveal what really happened. What do you think?

What to do with one of the worst presidents, maybe the worst, in US history? Is it better to be rid of him, or does impeachment represent a bigger long term threat?

During Iran-Contra, Democrats concluded impeachment was deserved, but not in the best interests of the country.

Republicans concluded impeaching Clinton was in the long term interests of the country.

Posted by: phx8 at August 11, 2006 7:46 PM
Comment #174954

Personally, I would like to see lots of investigations and subpoenas.

But yeah. At the end of the day, impeach him. He earned it.

Posted by: phx8 at August 11, 2006 7:48 PM
Comment #174956

Just realized this isn’t the Lieberman column, which would have made this discussion tangentially in the neighborhood. My apologies to the good Doctor.

phx8:

What I fear most is a throwing up of hands and letting Bush go attitude. The law-breaking of this administration is unprecedented. If if isn’t challeged in some constitutional way, I believe it lays seeds of prescedence that can be used to dismantle the country down the road.

Posted by: Tim Crow at August 11, 2006 7:56 PM
Comment #174972

Israel is also agreeing to the peace deal. The peace deal sounds good but practicaly speaking, we all know the UN will allow Hezbollah back in, they will rearm, and they will prepare for their next attack against Israel.

The UN is a victory for Anti US progressives in the US and around the globe. But, will Hezbollah agree to it? If Hezbollah keeps fighting, Israel MUST keep fighting and the UN will not go in.

We live in interesting times. Progressives tell us if we submit to the will of the terrorists we will have a better world, somehow I don’t believe them.

Posted by: Steve at August 11, 2006 9:18 PM
Comment #174973

“somehow I don’t believe them.”

I think the feeling is mutual.

Posted by: tony at August 11, 2006 9:32 PM
Comment #174974

Steve,

“Progressives tell us if we submit to the will of the terrorists we will have a better world, somehow I don’t believe them.”

That’s just ridiculous.

Please, point us all to a link that substantiates your claims.

Posted by: Rocky at August 11, 2006 9:37 PM
Comment #174976

I suggest you against yourself with the progressive movement, it’s goals, the groups it supports, the groups it opposes, it’s political goals. You appear to have missed out on what’s going on.

I’m not going to sit here and outline for you the socialist progressive movement, how the radicals dictate political correctness and their ultimate goals. Entire books are written on this subject I suggest you take off your blinders and read if you seriously don’t know that progressives support terrorists because they seem them as a credible power to oppose the US. As they see any power that opposes the “evil” US as credible and deserving of their support.

We aren’t children here Rocky, we aren’t going to let you blow it out both sides of your mouth. We are adult enough to understand what’s going on.

How long before progressives can give up on propaganda and openly acknowlege their support of anti US terrorists?

The democratic party is on the wrong side of the war on terrorism.

Posted by: Steve at August 11, 2006 9:43 PM
Comment #174979

Steve,

“We aren’t children here Rocky, we aren’t going to let you blow it out both sides of your mouth. We are adult enough to understand what’s going on.”

I didn’t ask for the numbers to win the lottery, pal, I just asked you to prove your statements.
Common courtesy would dictate that.
You want to make an inflamatory, all incompasing, bullshit statement, fine.

Is it your opinion or fact?

If it fact, prove it, identify your sources so we all can get in on your knowledge. If it is your opinion, identify it as such.

Posted by: Rocky at August 11, 2006 9:53 PM
Comment #174981

What do you not believe? That the progressive movement is a socialist movement? That the progressives support terrorists against Israel and the US because they view them as an allie to take down the old America?

That the progressives supported and spouted terrorist propaganda throught the Iraq coflict?

That progressives and their cultural war want to replace capitalist America with a socialist america? That progressives have been attacking Israel non stop since Hezbollah initiated this war against Israel? Progressives around the globe united almost instantly, they all know the part they have to play in coming to the aid of the terrorists. You think we don’t see that and understand it?

That Stalin called the progressives of his day “Useful Idiots” because they were working to thelp the west fall?

That Europe supported Sadam, supports Hamas and Hezbollah?

Get real. If you want a true debate you can’t start from a position of intellectual dishonesty.

The progressive movement is an Anti Christian, Anti Capitalist, Pro Socialist movement that lends propaganda support to any enemy of the US or Israel in order to achieve their goals.

The problem the progressives are having today is that we just narrowly stopped terrorists from killing thousands in the air. Today, your arab friends took a beating, they lost, and none of your propaganda is going to help them now.

Posted by: Rock at August 11, 2006 10:02 PM
Comment #174982

Rock,

“The problem the progressives are having today is that we just narrowly stopped terrorists from killing thousands in the air. Today, your arab friends took a beating, they lost, and none of your propaganda is going to help them now.”

MY Arab friends!
Now whose talking out of both sides.
We didn’t narrowly stop terrorists, the British did, and good for them.
What did we do recently?
Oh, yeah, we entrapped some morons in Florida that couldn’t find their ass with both hands.

Whoopee.

Posted by: Rocky at August 11, 2006 10:09 PM
Comment #174986

It’s listening to Hannity and Limbaugh.

It will surely rot your brain.

Posted by: Rocky at August 11, 2006 10:23 PM
Comment #174987

There you go Rock, showing your politically correct Anti US bias. Yes, your arab friends. The terrorists failed. And you and your kind no doubt wanted them to succeed so that you could get a politicaly victory against the Republicans whom you hate.

Who do you think you are fooling here Rock? And you’ve blown your cool, now you’ve revealed yourself to be the radical lib you are.

Posted by: Rock at August 11, 2006 10:23 PM
Comment #174988

Rock,

I surely don’t know what you’ve been imbibing in, but maybe you should troll somewhere else.

Posted by: Rocky at August 11, 2006 10:29 PM
Comment #174990

Rock, now you are talking to yourself. I’m holding down about 8 concurrent conversations typing as fast as I can and you are so flustered you can’t remember what you are doing.

You progressive libs are all the same. You support the terrorists as a way of smearing the America you wish to take down.

Well, your buddies failed. And I’d much rather they wERE picked up overseas then waiting for them to get here. By the way lame brain, they weren’t coming here, the planes were all going to go down in the ocean. They were British Muslim terroists and you are arguing that George Bush should have caught them before the British did?

Who do you think you are fooling? So you hate Bush and you will spin every situation in life to be an Anti Bush situation. You get a zit, Bush caused it. Yeah, we understand you.

Posted by: steve at August 11, 2006 10:34 PM
Comment #174991

Hell, I did sign on as rock. Too many windows, too many conversations. So many radicalized progressive liberals and so little time.

Posted by: steve at August 11, 2006 10:40 PM
Comment #174992

Gotta go. I’ve got some progressives freeking out over at Huffington Post.

Seeeeee Yah.

By the way, McCain is a war Hero, Hillary NEVER SERVED and has OPPOSED THE MILITARY.

Posted by: Steve at August 11, 2006 10:43 PM
Comment #174996

Did somebody change the air in here?

Posted by: Rocky at August 11, 2006 10:53 PM
Comment #174998

Rocky,
Heh heh. Your Arab friends. You heard him. Because everyone knows Arabs are our enemies. The US and Israel go together like green eggs and ham. Because we are green eggs, only red white and blue, and Israel is ham, and I can link it to Dr Seuss if you do not believe it. Just read the Bible, Rocky. Not the part about Jesus, I mean the first part, and, ummm, skip the Gospels and go right to the good stuff at the end. Everyone who is not Republican burns in a lake of fire, even the Israelis. Ironically, the Jews burn in the same lake and at exactly the same temperature as your Arab friends. But not capilalists. God likes the money changers in the temple better than Jesus. I think. Boo Democrats.

Posted by: phx8 at August 11, 2006 10:56 PM
Comment #175001

phx8,

You know, my wife collects signed and first edition books, and I have been looking for a signed Bible.

If you run across one let me know.

Posted by: Rocky at August 11, 2006 11:05 PM
Comment #175017

O’ how I wish there was some sence of history here. The anti-zionest, antisemetic feelings of the Arabs go a long way back. At the turn of the 20th Century I have read papers from Beruit (then one of the most important Ottoman centers) By 1911 two anti-jewish papers became the only ones read by the two great arab housholds of Palestine, the majority of the population could not read but followed the leads given by the Nashashibi and the Husayni (Hussain) clans. The most vocal was the Hussain family with the Mufti of Jerusalem at its head. The violence was against any one who stood against them for power to rule a very small piece of land called Palestine. In to this mix against Jewish and non-arab settlement came the newspaper Falestin (from beruit) and the great writer Najib Sassar, who was publisher of another newspaper called al-Karmil. Nasser and the mufti became partners after 1919 and created havick in thye British Mandate. The uprising in 1926, 1933 and 1936. Unsucessful the Mufti had a meeting with Hitler whom he thought would win the war and then help him remove the Jews. Near the end of the war the Mufti began an orginization that would work in secret, and later openly to rid the land of Jews and infidels. His other gift was the man called Yazer Arafat. Another gift was a general who was born in Egypt - whose father was a newspaper publisher in Beruit. Both Egyptians claimed Hussani blood ties and like their grand uncle and grandfathe they were rabid in their hatred and lust for power.
It is said that a Hussani walked into the Jewish Colonial Bank in Hafia and demanded credit. Not willing to fill out the forms and meet the executive his “line of credit” was turned down. He left quite agngerly and vowed revenge on all Jews because he was an important member of the Hussani family. Land was sold to the Jewish community by absentee land lords, The Nashashibis were for Jewish imigration to teach new technology. The Hussanis were against it. The population of Arabs followed the hypnotic power of the Mufti until he died.
Mufti after mufti, Mullah after Mullah followed the same teachings of the leaders of shei teachings then of the great preacher of the desert, Wahabi, known as the mohadib, the greatest of Islamic teachers and savior of Islam. Under This promise to remove the impure and infadels from the holy land and bring Islam back to its roots and glory. But men like Hassan of Syria, Hussien of Iraq and the Ayatollas saw their chance to grab power and milk their populations to support their conquests.
In their view they must regain Arab Glory and its empire.
This is why nothing other than a complete Israeli victory must occur. As long as They do not have the means to kill and not rule as they now are, the world is safe.
I recall a story told to me by an Arab friend. One day this Jew came to Israel and desided to farm the land. He was from NYC. You know he was not accustom to the ways of the east. He went to Hebron’s market and got lots of supplies and a donkey. He loaded the donkey and tried to make him walk with him. The Dumb guy tried every trick he could think of to get the donkey to move and he would not move. There was this old Arab who sat under a brokendown archway. He was laughing at every thing this city-slicker did. The kid got flustrated and finaly challenged the old man to do better. The old man proptly walked over and smacked the donkey across the head. The Jew yelled at the old arab for his mean treatment of the donkey. But he noticed the donkey walking out of the market. The boy ran after the pair and asked the old man what he had done. He replied that before you can get a donkey to do anything you must first get his attention.
Israelis have given the arabs every chance to live peace3fully with them and all that is done is more and more violence. This time Israel must win a dicisive victory or the whole thing will come back again. Lebanon will hate Israelis now but the back lash on hisbolah will come.
k

Posted by: kuzriel at August 12, 2006 12:00 AM
Comment #175020

What amazes me in all this discussion of Israel in this blog as well in the media, there is not one mention of Israel as occupiers and oppressors of the Palestinian people. Isn’t this what the conflict is really all about?

Hezbollah may use terroists tactics, but why do they exist? It seems we have short memories. So let me remind you.

Israel has been occupying the Palestinans for 34 years. They have been brutal oppressors. There are 4 million Palestinians living poverty and in dire conditions with no home, no economy, no job and in poverty. They are economically and politically oppressed. They have no control of their lives and no hope for the future. The israelis have driven 30,000 Palestinians from their homes in the West Bank and Gaza causing then to be homeless.

Meanwhile Israel, the size of New Jersey has a thriving economy and the world’s 4th strongest army (Thanks to US). Israel is out to Control the most valuable resource in Palestine - Water and appears to be planning to take more terriotory.

Israel has launched the Hasbara project focused on controling American Public opinion, keep it favorable towards Israel. They have hired several NY PR firms and created PAC’s to influence US policy and opinion.

Iarael is in violation of several UN resolutions, commited war crimes - with masacres in the occupied terroritories, denied the palestinians basic human and civil rights and killed thousands of innocent civilians and children.

Since 9/11 they have repackaged their military agression against the Palestinians as a war against terror. And if you criticize is Israel, you are an anti-semite or self-hating jew.

But none of these facts ever enter into our discussions about Israel. Aren’t these facts relevant? How can we honestly discuss this issue without this understanding?

Would any one of us behave differently if we were treated that way? There is never any discussion of the suffering of the Palestinians. We have no emapathy for them. We do not feel their pain. We have no sense of cause and effect.

It is almost unAmerican and unPatriotic to speak against Israel. No American politican has the courage to stand up and challange Israel for what they are doing.

Shame on us for being so blindly supportive, unquestioning and ignorant. We think we are a moral nation with Christian values, but it is only self-serving and has no substance.

Posted by: Jerseyguy at August 12, 2006 12:05 AM
Comment #175026

Jerseyguy

What a crock. Where do you get your info. Foilhats.com

Posted by: Keith at August 12, 2006 12:36 AM
Comment #175029

Kuzriel,
Interesting comment. However, the recap of history is fundamentally dishonest. You outline the development of anti-semitism in the Middle East without mentioning its cause:

Zionism.

Some of the oldest Jewish communities in the world are in Syria. Jews lived in Bagdhad continuously for 2700 years. Even today, 25,000 Jews live in Iran. These communities have nearly disappeared only in the past century, and for one reason:

Zionism.

You may feel Zionism is justified. But please do not pretend the hostility towards Jews arose from some sort of dream about Arab Glory. That would be particularly insulting to the Ayotollahs of Iran, who are not Arab.

The Palestinians do not accept the idea of Zionism, since it is enacted at their expense.

Because of the Holocaust (an atrocity committed by obstensibly Christian nations, the last act in a long history of Christian atrocities against the Jews), the US felt obligated to help Jews by supporting Zionism.

This was a mistake.

It is not in the interest of US foreign policy to support Christian states, Islamic states, or Jewish states. If countries wish to pursue those forms of government, we are not under any obligation to support them. We are under a moral obligation to do what we can to promote peaceful relations between countries.

We should always push for cease-fires and cessation of hostilities, and never wait to see how many one side can kill.

If the Middle East teaches us nothing else, it should serve as a cautionary tale, an example of the wisdom behind our doctrine of separation of church and state.

Posted by: phx8 at August 12, 2006 12:45 AM
Comment #175030

Jersey-
Where do you get your news and sence of history? In 25 years in Israel I saw 15 arab apartments torn down, all of them illegal(no building permits. At the same time I saw 30 settlements with no less than 6 members to a family evicted for building illegal homes and settlements. I have seen punishment destrction of 10 arab houses after there were fights between arab families where violence destroyed houses. You tell me Israel occupies stolden land. I tell you that if the landbank did not buy the land before 1948 from the legitimate authorities - Ottoman and British she only allowed settlements on Meiri land. Meiri land belonged to the goverment (First the Ottomans, then the British) and was designated for use by paying a Tapuach tax every 50 years to the goverment. Your children only inherit the right to settle as long as the tax is paid. There were few land owners in the small towns of “Palestine” most lived in Beruit, Cario and Domascus. The land was brought. My grandfather and his brothers donated to the Colonial Bank to do so. I own my house because I paid my tax to the goverment and paid a contractor to build my house, sfter the title to live there was gotten. I can show you photographs of the exact valley my house is in, there was always one road from Jerusalem to Schem but no houses or redt stops, no agraculture until a group of Jews from Yemen and Brazil came and settled in 1965. In the middle 70’s Arab villeges appeared near Jewish settlements where work could be found - arabs from Lybia, Jorden, Syria, Egypt. They came to live and work. By the 1980’s there was prosperity in both communities (actually we also had the last two surviving Sameritan villages). Arafat and this thugs riding their biks came to the markets and forbid all trade or work with the Jews. If You didn’t follow their rule you were dead or out of business. There was a fee charged on your daily work. unless you kept up your payments there was no work.
Where did all his money that he stold from the people go? or have you forgotten that too.
k

Posted by: kuzriel at August 12, 2006 12:49 AM
Comment #175032

Here’s the other side.

1. ISRAEL BECAME A STATE IN 1312 B.C., TWO
MILLENNIA BEFORE ISLAM;

2. ARAB REFUGEES FROM ISRAEL BEGAN CALLING
THEMSELVES “PALESTINIANS” IN 1967, TWO DECADES AFTER
(MODERN) ISRAELI STATEHOOD;

3. AFTER CONQUERING THE LAND IN 1272 B.C., JEWS
RULED IT FOR A THOUSAND YEARS AND MAINTAINED A
CONTINUOUS PRESENCE THERE FOR 3,300 YEARS;

4. THE ONLY ARAB RULE FOLLOWING CONQUEST IN 633
B.C. LASTED JUST 22 YEARS;

5. FOR OVER 3,300 YEARS, JERUSALEM WAS THE JEWISH
CAPITAL. IT WAS NEVER THE CAPITAL OF ANY ARAB OR
MUSLIM ENTITY. EVEN UNDER JORDANIAN RULE, (EAST)
JERUSALEM WAS NOT MADE THE CAPITAL, AND NO ARAB
LEADER CAME TO VISIT IT;

6. JERUSALEM IS MENTIONED OVER 700 TIMES IN THE
BIBLE, BUT NOT ONCE IS IT MENTIONED IN THE QUR’AN;

7. KING DAVID FOUNDED JERUSALEM; MOHAMMED NEVER
SET FOOT IN IT;

8. JEWS PRAY FACING JERUSALEM; MUSLIMS FACE MECCA.
IF THEY ARE BETWEEN THE TWO CITIES, MUSLIMS PRAY
FACINGMECCA, WITH THEIR BACKS TO JERUSALEM;

9. IN 1948, ARAB LEADERS URGED THEIR PEOPLE TO
LEAVE, PROMISING TO CLEANSE THE LAND OF JEWISH
PRESENCE. 68% OF THEM FLED WITHOUT EVER SETTING EYES
ON AN ISRAELI SOLDIER;

10. VIRTUALLY THE ENTIRE JEWISH POPULATION OF
MUSLIM COUNTRIES HAD TO FLEE AS THE RESULT OF
VIOLENCE AND POGROMS;

11. SOME 630,000 ARABS LEFT ISRAEL IN 1948, WHILE
CLOSE TO A MILLION JEWS WERE FORCED TO LEAVE THE
MUSLIM COUNTRIES;

12. IN SPITE OF THE VAST TERRITORIES AT THEIR
DISPOSAL, ARAB REFUGESS WERE DELIBERATELY PREVENTED
FROM ASSIMILATING INTO THEIR HOST COUNTRIES. OF 100
MILLION REFUGEES FOLLOWING WORLD WAR 2, THEY ARE THE
ONLY GROUP TO HAVE NEVER INTEGRATED WITH THEIR
CORELIGIONISTS. MOST OF THE JEWISH REFUGEES FROM
EUROPE AND ARABLANDS WERE SETTLED IN ISRAEL, A
COUNTRY NO LARGER THAN NEW JERSEY;

13. THERE ARE 22 MUSLIM COUNTRIES, NOT COUNTING
PALESTINE. THERE IS ONLY ONE JEWISH STATE. ARABS
STARTED ALL FIVE WARS AGAINST ISRAEL, AND LOST EVERY
NE OF THEM;

14. FATAH AND HAMAS CONSTITUTIONS STILL CALL FOR
THE DESTRUCTION OF ISRAEL. ISRAEL CEDED MOST OF THE
WEST BANK AND ALL OF GAZA TO THE PALESTINIAN
AUTHORITY, AND EVEN PROVIDED IT WITH ARMS;

15. DURING THE JORDANIAN OCCUPATION, JEWISH HOLY
SITES WERE VANDALIZED AND WERE OFF LIMITS TO JEWS.
UNDER ISRAELI RULE, ALL MUSLIM AND CHRISTIAN HOLY
SITES ARE ACCESSIBLE TO ALL FAITHS;

16. OUT OF 175 UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL
RESOLUTIONS UP TO 1990, 97 WERE AGAINST ISRAEL; OUT
OF 690 GENERAL ASSEMBLY RESOLUTIONS, 429 WERE
AGAINST ISRAEL;

17. THE U.N. WAS SILENT WHEN THE JORDANIANS
DESTROYED 58 SYNAGOGUES IN THE OLD CITY OF
JERUSALEM. IT REMAINED SILENT WHILE JORDAN
SYSTEMATICALLY DESECRATED THE ANCIENT JEWISH
CEMETERY ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES, AND IT REMAINED
SILENT WHEN JORDAN ENFORCED APARTHEID LAWS
PREVENTING JEWS FROM ACCESSING THE TEMPLE MOUNT AND WESTERN WALL.

Posted by: Keith at August 12, 2006 12:58 AM
Comment #175033

I think if you look at my comment I noted the anti-zionist nature of some Ottoman parties and newspapers - but they went beyond zionism.
You ask where dis the Jewish communities of Halab, Babylon and Persia go? Many went to Israel and many to New York.
Not being histoically honest? The Ottomans went to the Axis side of WWI and II. Their empire eas carved up by the British and French. Both of which gave out rewards for loyality. The French got Lebonan and Syria. The British got Iraq, Iran, The Arabian states and shekdoms, Egypt and Palestine. The British gave Jews and Arabs land in Palestine, creating the Kingdom of Jordan for a prince of Old Iraq. Iraq was given to another prince and the Shah of Iran became the ruler there.
There was no theft, only international law and two world wars.
k

Posted by: kuzriel at August 12, 2006 1:02 AM
Comment #175040

Kuzriel,
US policy treated the Jews with the best of intentions by supporting the formation of Israel in 1948, & acting as the ally of Israel ever since.

US policy treated the Arabs with the worst of intentions by controlling their countries through puppets, in order to drill for oil.

In practical terms, what is done, is done. We cannot go back. In practical terms, all we can do now is to encourage the observation of Human Rights, while letting globalization spread the legal and economic basis for its observation.

It is in the interest of the US to spread liberal democracy, a republican model which observes the rights of the individual. It is a blend of capitalism & socialism, with its most salient feature being secularism.

To accomplish our aim means facing the consequences of our past intentions, whether good or bad. It means facing the music in the Arab world, and encouraging a transition from authoritarian governments to ones which are more representative; and that music can be pretty darn unpleasant, since it means enduring governments that include Hamas & Hezbollah. It also means backing away & separating US policy from Israeli policy. (I am not too worried about the Arabs destroying Israel- nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons make that an extremely difficult proposition).

The Bush administration policy has been a disaster. We did Israel no favors whatsoever by backing their foray into Lebanon, and now, once again, Americans face the embarrassing results of another failed policy. Bush used the right words when he demanded Syria withdraw from Lebanon, and encouraged democracy to flourish. He undercut his own words by allowing Israel to drop US explosives on Lebanon, destroying their infrastructure and radicalizing the country as a whole. Like the invasion of Iraq, this was one of the most foolish endeavors I have seen in my lifetime.

Posted by: phx8 at August 12, 2006 1:56 AM
Comment #175046

I don’t seek to blame Bush or America. If you do you are uninformed or shortsighted.
If Our goal was oil why have we suffered a 20 cent a gallon spiraling to $3+? Yes the US and Europe needs oil - but push comes to shove we have enough to get by on. Oil from the middle east has only been a business after WWII. There was no problem before the US got involved. My dear friend England was tired out between 1919 and 1948. The Arabs had rebelled in “Palestine” no less that 4 times with massive intifada style. There was open warfare all over between the two communities.
Before WWI it was a small place and few in the West heard of Jewish settlement of Palestine. The US wasn’t involved in the 1860’s there was a civil war and there were only urban myths about the Land. America became involved because of the second world war and the great loss of Jewish life. America stood by Israel in her development as a dynamic economic power. Solutions to great problems were solved. We extended our hand in Peace in 1948, in 1956 (here we gave the land back), in 1967, in 1974, in 1984-5 we built factories and massive farms for Tomatoes and flowers - we invited “palestinians” to work. They came and so did Fatah and the Arafat mafia. Again understand I lived there for over 20 years. I have seen the problems up close. What do you rely on? What historys have you read? How is your Arabic? Your Hebrew? I am a native speaker of both and I am widely read and well known, inspite of each side declaring I represent the other.
And before you yell zionism was the cause. Arab migration to Israel has been over 50% increece during the Mandate period - encluding Black slaves the Arabs owned and despised were given freedom if they came here as muslims. The Arabs had an alleah movement.
Study a problem from history and don’t blaime the US for the problem, let alone President Bush.
K

Posted by: kuzriel at August 12, 2006 2:57 AM
Comment #175049

Poliico, Hezbollah did not represent Lebanon before the Israeli invasion. If Israel turns its back on the world community and pursues subjugation of all of Lebanon, it will find itself with it’s own Iraq. Unable to leave, untenable to stay. A quagmire. Since all of Lebanon will be come Hezbollah if Israel continues. And extermination of all Lebanese is something the world will NOT permit Isreal to engage in, grotesquely ironic as that would be.

Posted by: David R. Remer at August 12, 2006 3:06 AM
Comment #175057

Jerseyguy, Phx8 and David Remer great comments…an enouraging read.

Here’s to peace, human rights and respect for the dignity of others.

I’m with Ta’ayush, Neve Shalom-Wahat al Salam, Brit Shalom/Tahalof Essalam and Brit Tzedek v’Shalom.

Support the peacemakers not those who only only big ideas are hatred, dehumanisation and war.

Posted by: abhcoide at August 12, 2006 8:16 AM
Comment #175060

Keith - Are you serious? Is that your argument? Are you that unaware? What did I say that isn’t true? Here are some sources:

If you have time watch this video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696%20&hl=en

The English version of the Israeli newspaper Ha’artez carries opinions of Israeli’s that are more critical of Israel than anything we hear in the US. Read the opinon section. http://www.haaretz.com/

Also you can read about the Hasbara Project if you google on it and while your at it, try googling Israeli occupation and see what you get.

Posted by: Jerseyguy at August 12, 2006 8:31 AM
Comment #175097

Ok so Israel sets up a program to counteract the propaganda machines of BBC, Al-Jazeera and the NY Times and this is seen by you as an evil conspiracy. Stop getting your information from the Internet read history books.

The reason Israel is thriving is because they created something. About half of what is now Israel was marsh and swampland, they reclaimed the earth and made it thrive.

They do not live to oppress the “Palenstinians”. They want to be left alone.

Posted by: Keith at August 12, 2006 11:43 AM
Comment #175115

Dr. P, couldn’t agree more!

************

For photo fraud on the Israeli-Hezbollah war go to: http://www.aish.com/movies/PhotoFraud.asp

Posted by: Ken Strong at August 12, 2006 1:00 PM
Comment #175127

Yes Keith, they want to be left alone when they havev completed the expulsion of the Palestinians from the Occupied Territories.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at August 12, 2006 1:47 PM
Comment #175133

kuzriel,
Good comment.

WE all know the arguments. In South Africa, blacks came for job opportunities. Why, blacks were much better off with apartheid!

There is not much point in rehashing history. I would not that Israel attacked about as many times as it has been attacked; the 1956 war was basically a plan by Britain & France to take the Suez canal, the Israelis attacked in 1967 (before they could be attacked), they invaded Lebanon in to rid themselves of Al Fatah (only to find themselves just one more participant in a civil war, their moral credibility forever stained by massacres, and Fatah metastizing into even worse groups), and Israel attacked Syria in a very short, sharp air war which destroyed the Syrian air force very quickly.

I do not blame Bush for what happened in the past. As I said earlier, there were good intentions on the part of the US, and not so good intentions in regard to the Arabs.

Today I see a US policy which has identified its national interest and security with Israel, and set itself in oppsotion to Islam. The Bush White House seems intent on starting WWIII.

One last item- the Bush administration is a Fossil Fuel administration. That does not mean cheap gas for you. It means tremendous profits for the energy industry and other Bush cronies.

Keith,
Yes, we had the same problem with American Indians in the US. They were notoriously lazy, and did not do anything with the land. We reclaimed the land and made it into something worthwhile, by which I mean, profitable for the owners of the land. It kind of sucked for the slaves, but never mind. The slaves were better off here in the US on plantations than back in Ghana, much higher standard of living here in the antebellum south. As for the American Indians, we settled their hash, but good. The only good indian is a dead indian. Manifest Destiny, baby. Thats the way, uh huh uh huh, God wants it, uh huh uh huh.

Posted by: phx8 at August 12, 2006 2:12 PM
Comment #175140

You guys are absolutely right it’s all about the “Occupation”
_____________________________________________________
Major Arab Terrorist Attacks against Israelis Prior to the 1967 Six-Day War

Jan 1, 1952 - Seven armed terrorists attacked and killed a nineteen year-old girl in her home, in the neighborhood of Beit Yisrael, in Jerusalem.

Apr 14, 1953 - Terrorists tried for the first time to infiltrate Israel by sea, but were unsuccessful. One of the boats was intercepted and the other boat escaped.

June 7, 1953 - A youngster was killed and three others were wounded, in shooting attacks on residential areas in southern Jerusalem.

June 9, 1953 - Terrorists attacked a farming community near Lod, and killed one of the residents. The terrorists threw hand grenades and sprayed gunfire in all directions. On the same night, another group of terrorists attacked a house in the town of Hadera. This occurred a day after Israel and Jordan signed an agreement, with UN mediation, in which Jordan undertook to prevent terrorists from crossing into Israel from Jordanian territory.

June 10, 1953 - Terrorists infiltrating from Jordan destroyed a house in the farming village of Mishmar Ayalon.

June 11, 1953 - Terrorists attacked a young couple in their home in Kfar Hess, and shot them to death.

Sept 2, 1953 - Terrorists infiltrated from Jordan, and reached the neighborhood of Katamon, in the heart of Jerusalem. They threw hand grenades in all directions. Miraculously, no one was hurt.

Mar 17, 1954 - Terrorists ambushed a bus traveling from Eilat to Tel Aviv, and opened fire at short range when the bus reached the area of Maale Akrabim in the northern Negev. In the initial ambush, the terrorists killed the driver and wounded most of the passengers. The terrorists then boarded the bus, and shot each passenger, one by one. Eleven passengers were murdered. Survivors recounted how the murderers spat on the bodies and abused them. The terrorists could clearly be traced back to the Jordanian border, some 20 km from the site of the terrorist attack.

Jan 2, 1955 - Terrorists killed two hikers in the Judean Desert.

Mar 24, 1955 - Terrorists threw hand grenades and opened fire on a crowd at a wedding in the farming community of Patish, in the Negev. A young woman was killed, and eighteen people were wounded in the attack.

Apr 7, 1956 - A resident of Ashkelon was killed in her home, when terrorists threw three hand grenades into her house.
Two members of Kibbutz Givat Chaim were killed, when terrorists opened fire on their car, on the road from Plugot Junction to Mishmar Hanegev.
There were further hand grenade and shooting attacks on homes and cars, in areas such as Nitzanim and Ketziot. One person was killed and three others wounded.

Apr 11, 1956 - Terrorists opened fire on a synagogue full of children and teenagers, in the farming community of Shafrir. Three children and a youth worker were killed on the spot, and five were wounded, including three seriously.

Apr 29, 1956 - Egyptians killed Roi Rotenberg, 21 years of age, from Nahal Oz.

Sept 12, 1956 - Terrorists killed three Druze guards at Ein Ofarim, in the Arava region.

Sept 23, 1956 - Terrorists opened fire from a Jordanian position, and killed four archaeologists, and wounded sixteen others, near Kibbutz Ramat Rachel.

Sept 24, 1956 - Terrorists killed a girl in the fields of the farming community of Aminadav, near Jerusalem.

Oct 4, 1956 - Five Israeli workers were killed in Sdom.

Oct 9, 1956 - Two workers were killed in an orchard of the youth village, Neve Hadassah, in the Sharon region.

Nov 8, 1956 - Terrorists opened fire on a train, attacked cars and blew up wells, in the North and Center of Israel. Six Israelis were wounded.

Feb 18, 1957 - Two civilians were killed by terrorist landmines, next to Nir Yitzhak, on the southern border of the Gaza Strip.

Mar 8, 1957 - A shepherd from Kibbutz Beit Govrin was killed by terrorists in a field near the Kibbutz.

Apr 16, 1957 - Terrorists infiltrated from Jordan, and killed two guards at Kibbutz Mesilot.

May 20, 1957 - A terrorist opened fire on a truck in the Arava region, killing a worker.

May 29, 1957 - A tractor driver was killed and two others wounded, when the vehicle struck a landmine, next to Kibbutz Kisufim.

June 23, 1957 - Israelis were wounded by landmines, close to the Gaza Strip.

Aug 23, 1957 - Two guards of the Israeli Mekorot water company were killed near Kibbutz Beit Govrin.

Dec 21, 1957 - A member of Kibbutz Gadot was killed in the Kibbutz fields.

Feb 11, 1958 - Terrorists killed a resident of Moshav Yanov who was on his way to Kfar Yona, in the Sharon area.

Apr 5, 1958 - Terrorists lying in ambush shot and killed two people near Tel Lachish.

Apr 22, 1958 - Jordanian soldiers shot and killed two fishermen near Aqaba.

May 26, 1958 - Four Israeli police officers were killed in a Jordanian attack on Mt. Scopus, in Jerusalem.

Nov 17, 1958 - Syrian terrorists killed the wife of the British air attache in Israel, who was staying at the guesthouse of the Italian Convent on the Mt. of the Beatitudes.

Dec 3, 1958- A shepherd was killed at Kibbutz Gonen. In the artillery attack that followed, 31 civilians were wounded.

Jan 23, 1959 - A shepherd from Kibbutz Lehavot Habashan was killed.

Feb 1, 1959 - Three civilians were killed by a terrorist landmine near Moshav Zavdiel.

Apr 15, 1959 - A guard was killed at Kibbutz Ramat Rahel.

Apr 27, 1959 - Two hikers were shot at close range and killed near Massada.

Sept 6, 1959 - Bedouin terrorists killed a paratroop reconnaissance officer near Nitzana.

Sept 8, 1959 - Bedouins opened fire on an army bivouac in the Negev, killing an IDF officer, Captain Yair Peled.

Oct 3, 1959 - A shepherd from Kibbutz Heftziba was killed near Kibbutz Yad Hana.

Apr 26, 1960 - Terrorists killed a resident of Ashkelon south of the city.

Apr 12, 1962 - Terrorists fired on an Egged bus on the way to Eilat; one passenger was wounded.

Sept 30, 1962 - Two terrorists attacked an Egged bus on the way to Eilat. No one was wounded.

Jan 1, 1965 - Palestinian terrorists attempted to bomb the National Water Carrier. This was the first attack carried out by the PLO’s Fatah faction.

May 31, 1965 - Jordanian Legionnaires fired on the neighborhood of Musrara in Jerusalem, killing two civilians and wounding four.

June 1, 1965 - Terrorists attack a house in Kibbutz Yiftach.

July 5, 1965 - A Fatah cell planted explosives at Mitzpe Massua, near Beit Guvrin; and on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem near Kafr Battir.

Aug 26, 1965 - A waterline was sabotaged at Kibbutz Manara, in the Upper Galilee.

Sept 29, 1965 - A terrorist was killed as he attempted to attack Moshav Amatzia.

Nov 7, 1965 - A Fatah cell that infiltrated from Jordan blew up a house in Moshav Givat Yeshayahu, south of Beit Shemesh. The house was destroyed, but the inhabitants were miraculously unhurt.

Apr 25, 1966 - Explosions placed by terrorists wounded two civilians and damaged three houses in Moshav Beit Yosef, in the Beit Shean Valley.

May 16, 1966 - Two Israelis were killed when their jeep hit a terrorist landmine, north of the Sea of Galilee and south of Almagor. Tracks led into Syria.

July 13, 1966 - Two soldiers and a civilian were killed near Almagor, when their truck struck a terrorist landmine.

July 14, 1966 - Terrorists attacked a house in Kfar Yuval, in the North.

July 19, 1966 - Terrorists infiltrated into Moshav Margaliot on the northern border and planted nine explosive charges.

Oct 27, 1966 - A civilian was wounded by an explosive charge on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem.

Posted by: Keith at August 12, 2006 2:41 PM
Comment #175142

Talk about twisting the facts, you are a gas PHX8. The point was THE LAND WAS PAID FOR TO ITS OWNER under Ottoman Law. The Land taken after 1967 and used by Jews was only state lands not individual’s land that even had a meiri deed. Meiri Land was land owned by the government and “leased” for use to that person within terms outlined in THE LAW.
As I said my home in Israel sits on meiri land that was nothin but stones. We had to blast granite just to build foundations. Inspite of all money spent my house sits on meiri land that can be reconfiscated by the state, quite like English law, and under those conditions.
But facts make no difference, heh? Or is this another mouth going before the brain is in gear moment?

Posted by: kuzriel at August 12, 2006 2:45 PM
Comment #175148

Keith,
There is a long history of vile acts committed by both sides. Look into Qibya, 1953, a massacre brought to you by none other than Ariel Sharon.

It now appears a ceasefire will be put in place in the next few days. This begs some obvious questions. For example, why did Israel destroy Lebanese infrastructure? We understand why the Katyusha rockets of Hezbollah are a crime. Why did Israel kill so many innocent children, hundreds of children, in its “precision” air strikes.

The result of this spasm of violence is nothing. Nothing achieved. Nothing except the death of a lot of some soldiers from both sides, a lot of innocent lives lost. This was about as pointless a war as war can possibly be.

As for US policy, we meant well backing the formation of Israel, and being an ally. But we need to remember, US policy is not about favoring any particular ethnic group or religion. It is about favoring the furthering of ideals, such as freedom and liberty and separation of church and state and, yes, peaceful relations.

That does not mean hostility towards ethnic groups or religious states which have no interst in implementing American ideals. It does mean Americans need to rethink just what it is we really stand for.

Posted by: phx8 at August 12, 2006 4:09 PM
Comment #175149

phx8,

What should Israel’s response to Hezbollah’s crossing the border killing 6 soldiers, kidnapping 2 and unleashing hundreds of rockets.

“Come sit around the campfire and we’ll sing kumbayah together”.

Posted by: Keith at August 12, 2006 4:13 PM
Comment #175150

phx8

It is also amazing that you do not mention the over the border raids by Jordanians that led to the raid on Qibya. The Israeli govenment also apologized for the civilian casualties and pulled back from the armistace line.

When was the last time any group in the middle east apologized for civilian deaths.

Posted by: Keith at August 12, 2006 4:19 PM
Comment #175152

Keith,
Are you sure about the provocation which started this war? The US media presents the IDF version, which says Hezbollah crossed the border and “kidnapped” two soldiers.

The rest of the media of the world reports the two soldiers were “kidnapped” during a raid inside Lebanon.

Who is telling the truth? What cannot be concealed is the fact that the destroyed Israeli tank is, in fact, inside Lebanon.

In any event, this latest episode is an example of totally unnecessary violence. It ran the risk of escalation. US foreign policy has gained nothing. Israeli policy has gained by removing any doubt for the rest of the world- US policy and Israeli policy are one and the same.

It is gross incompetence. It is diplomatic ineptitude. Supposedly Rice protested the US policy, but was overruled by Bush. Nice.

Posted by: phx8 at August 12, 2006 4:38 PM
Comment #175153

Keith,
The last apology I heard about was on July 21, 2006. The leader of Hezbollah, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, apologized for an attack that killed two children.

Posted by: phx8 at August 12, 2006 4:42 PM
Comment #175155

phx8

This is from Aljazeera.net


July 12

Hezbollah fighters seize two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid. Three Israeli soldiers are also killed in the attack.

It says it will release them if Israel frees Palestinian prisoners held in Israeli jails.

“Fulfilling its pledge to liberate the prisoners and detainees, the Islamic Resistance … captured two Israeli soldiers at the border with occupied Palestine,” a Hezbollah statement said.

Ehud Olmert, Israel’s prime minister, said the attack was an “act of war” by Lebanon and said he would make the country pay a “heavy price”.

Later that day, Israel launches a small cross-border raid in the area where the two soldiers were abducted. Hezbollah destroyed one Israeli tank, killing its four-man crew. Another Israeli was killed in an operation to recover the tank.


Is this a western media outlet?

You’ll also note the reference to the border of occupied Palestine, meaning the Israel-Lebanon border.

Posted by: Keith at August 12, 2006 4:55 PM
Comment #175157

Let us put Qibya in context. There were infiltraters and attacks, about 3000 of them, where mines were planted on roads. Israel complained and the US brokered an agreement with the Jordanians. In 1953 - January I believe the Jordanian Primeminister nulified the agreement and 4 policeman were killed on Mount Scopus, as well as other acts. Israel asked Jordan to renew the agreement, no response. They filed complaint with the UN - no response. A group of ordinary troops make up of arrivals from Easteran Europe - New to the country and new to Warfare were formed into a unit called Unit 101. Even their officers were new. The task of this unit was to prosue infiltraters or trace them back to their base camp. A group of infiltraters entered Qibya for food and water. The 101 only knew they stopped there. There was house to house fighting. The blew up 45 homes some where civilians were hiding. The State took responsibility, sentured the men involved and no longer allowed nan-regular troups to deal with these problems. By the time the UN had their vote the raids had stopped from both sides and Jordan reinstituted the agreement but on the ground Jordan did nothing. The next year no less than 20 Jewish civilians were murdered.
K

Posted by: kuzriel at August 12, 2006 4:59 PM
Comment #175165


July 19, 1966 - Terrorists infiltrated into Moshav Margaliot on the northern border and planted nine explosive charges.

Oct 27, 1966 - A civilian was wounded by an explosive charge on the railroad tracks to Jerusalem.
Posted by: Keith at August 12, 2006 02:41 PM

Keith, what I find remarkable about your chronology of terror, is that it clearly postdates one I placed on another post on the blog, which I have copied below. It seems that the Zionists were very effective pathfinders in terror for the Arabs, showing them how much could be achieved by vicious barbarism.

August 20, 1937 - June 29, 1939. During this period, the Zionists carried out a series of attacks against Arab buses, resulting in the death of 24 persons and wounding 25 others.

November 25, 1940. S.S.Patria was blown up by Jewish terrorists in Haifa harbour, killing 268 illegal Jewish immigrants (see below).

November 6, 1944. Zionist terrorists of the Stern Gang assassinated the British Minister Resident in the Middle East, Lord Moyne, in Cairo.

July 22, 1946. Zionist terrorists blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, which housed the central offices of the civilian administration of the government of Palestine, killing or injuring more than 200 persons. The Irgun officially claimed responsibility for the incident, but subsequent evidence indicated that both the Haganah and the Jewish Agency were involved.

October 1, 1946. The British Embassy in Rome was badly damaged by bomb explosions, for which Irgun claimed responsibility.

June 1947. Letters sent to British Cabinet Ministers were found to contain bombs.

September 3, 1947. A postal bomb addressed to the British War Office exploded in the post office sorting room in London, injuring 2 persons. It was attributed to Irgun or Stern Gangs. (The Sunday Times, Sept. 24, 1972, p.8)

December 11, 1947. Six Arabs were killed and 30 wounded when bombs were thrown from Jewish trucks at Arab buses in Haifa; 12 Arabs were killed and others injured in an attack by armed Zionists on an Arab coastal village near Haifa.

December 13,1947. Zionist terrorists, believed to be members of Irgun Zvai Leumi, killed 18 Arabs and wounded nearly 60 in Jerusalem, Jaffa and Lydda areas. In Jerusalem, bombs were thrown in an Arab market-place near the Damascus Gate; in Jaffa, bombs were thrown into an Arab cafe; in the Arab village of Al Abbasya, near Lydda, 12 Arabs were killed in an attack with mortars and automatic weapons.

December 19, 1947. Haganah terrorists attacked an Arab village near Safad, blowing up two houses, in the ruins of which were found the bodies of 10 Arabs, including 5 children. Haganah admitted responsibility for the attack.

December 29, 1947. Two British constables and 11 Arabs were killed and 32 Arabs injured, at the Damascus Gate in Jerusalem when Irgun members threw a bomb from a taxi.

December 30,1947. A mixed force of the Zionist Palmach and the “Carmel Brigade” attacked the village of Balad al Sheikh, killing more than 60 Arabs.

1947 — 1948. Over 700,000 Palestinian Arabs were uprooted from their homes and land, and forced to live in refugee camps on Israel’s borders. They have been denied the right to return to their homes. They have been refused compensation for their homes, orchards, farms and other property stolen from them by the Israeli government. After their expulsion, the “Israeli Forces” totally obliterated (usually by bulldozing) 385 Arab villages and towns, out of a total of 475. Commonly, Israeli villages were built on the remaining rubble.

January 1, 1948. Haganah terrorists attacked a village on the slopes of Mount Carmel; 17 Arabs were killed and 33 wounded.

January 4, 1948. Haganah terrorists wearing British Army uniforms penetrated into the center of Jaffa and blew up the Serai (the old Turkish Government House) which was used as a headquarters of the Arab National Committee, killing more than 40 persons and wounding 98 others.

January 5, 1948. The Arab-owned Semiramis Hotel in Jerusalem was blown up, killing 20 persons, among them Viscount de Tapia, the Spanish Consul. Haganah admitted responsibility for this crime.

January 7, 1948. Seventeen Arabs were killed by a bomb at the Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem, 3 of them while trying to escape. Further casualties, including the murder of a British officer near Hebron, were reported from different parts of the country.

January 16, 1948. Zionists blew up three Arab buildings. In the first, 8 children between the ages of 18 months and 12 years, died.

December 13, 1947 — February 10, 1948. Seven incidents of bomb-tossing at innocent Arab civilians in cafes and markets, killing 138 and wounding 271 others, During this period, there were 9 attacks on Arab buses. Zionists mined passenger trains on at least 4 occasions, killing 93 persons and wounding 161 others.

February 15, 1948. Haganah terrorists attacked an Arab village near Safad, blew up several houses, killing 11 Arabs, including 4 children..

March 3, 1948. Heavy damage was done to the Arab-owned Salam building in Haifa (a 7 story block of apartments and shops) by Zionists who drove an army lorry ( truck) up to the building and escaped before the detonation of 400 Ib. of explosives; casualties numbered 11 Arabs and 3 Armenians killed and 23 injured. The Stern Gang claimed responsibility for the incident.

March 22, 1948. A housing block in Iraq Street in Haifa was blown up killing 17 and injuring 100 others. Four members of the Stern Gang drove two truck-loads of explosives into the street and abandoned the vehicles before the explosion.

March 31, 1948. The Cairo-Haifa Express was mined, for the second time in a month, by an electronically-detonated land mine near Benyamina, killing 40 persons and wounding 60 others.

April 9, 1948. A combined force of Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang, supported by the Palmach forces, captured the Arab village of Deir Yassin and killed more than 200 unarmed civilians, including countless women and children. Older men and young women were captured and paraded in chains in the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem; 20 of the hostages were then shot in the quarry of Gevaat Shaul.

April 16, 1948. Zionists attacked the former British army camp at Tel Litvinsky, killing 90 Arabs there.

April 19, 1948. Fourteen Arabs were killed in a house in Tiberias, which was blown up by Zionist terrorists.

May 3, 1948. A book bomb addressed to a British Army officer, who had been stationed in Palestine exploded, killing his brother, Rex Farran.

May11, 1948. A letter bomb addressed to Sir Evelyn Barker, former Commanding Officer in Palestine, was detected in the nick of time by his wife.

April 25, 1948 — May 13, 1948. Wholesale looting of Jaffa was carried out following armed attacks by Irgun and Haganah terrorists. They stripped and carried away everything they could, destroying what they could not take with them.


THE SS PATRIA.


November 25, 1940. In September, 1940, around 3,000 Jewish refugees from Vienna, Prague and Danzig were attempting to reach Palestine. In a convoy of four river steamers, they set sail down the Danube and reached the Romanian port of Tulcea where they transferred to three Greek cargo ships named Atlantic, Pacific and Milos. Conditions on board these three ships were horrendous, reminiscent of Japanese hell-ships later in the war. Eventually the ships reached Palestinian waters, but the British Colonial Office refused them permission to land. It was finally decided to deport the refugees to the island of Mauritius where a special camp was to be built. The three ships were then brought into Haifa harbour where the liner Patria was berthed. The refugees were then embarked on the Patria and as the last passengers from the Atlantic were coming on board, a tremendous explosion ripped the liner apart. The death toll amounted to 267 refugees killed. The explosion was the work of the Jewish underground army, the Haganah, who had meant only to damage the ship to prevent it sailing but had miscalculated the amount of explosives needed to disable the ship. Many say that this was no miscalculation and was deliberate murder of Jews by Jews, in an attempt to influence British immigration policy to Palestine.


A LIGHT UNTO THE NATIONS.


The first act of air piracy in the history of civil aviation was carried out by Israel, in Dec. 1954, when a civilian Syrian airliner was forced down in Tel Aviv and its passengers and crew held for days, despite international condemnation.

In 1968, Israeli commandos blew up 13 civilian airliners at Beirut airport in Lebanon.

The first deliberate shooting down a civilian airliner was carried out by Israel, when a Libyan airliner was shot down by Israeli jet fighters over Sinai, in Feb. 1973, on the direct orders of Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir, killing all 107 of its passengers and the entire French crew.

Yes, it seems the Zionists were indeed very effective mentors to todays terrorists.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at August 12, 2006 6:46 PM
Comment #175166

ya know there would be a lot less civilian casualties if Hezbollah would quit placing their launchers on hospitals and the back yards of innocent people.

The terrorists wear civilian clothing and hide behind the skirts of woman and use their children as human shields.

I don’t recall the name of the person who said it but a female Israeli Prime Minister once said
“There will be peace in the middle east when Muslim’s learn to love their children more then they hate us”.

Jeff

Posted by: Jeff at August 12, 2006 6:57 PM
Comment #175167

Paul in Euroland

Do you have anything that is not from a website where you can find out about the Jews blowing up the World Trade Center and probably aliens abducted Elvis.

Posted by: Keith at August 12, 2006 6:58 PM
Comment #175168

Keith, is that a challenge to any of the facts presented, or just a pathetic attempt to smear with a smoke screen?

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at August 12, 2006 7:03 PM
Comment #175171

You will notice that the timeline ends early in 1948. That’s because once Israel became a state, they shutdown all of these other independent organizations.

During your timeline there was only British control. As you will see most of the attacks by these organizations were against the British military or their comanders.

Despite the fact that the Mufti of Jerusalem spend most of the war in Germany, the British were leaning towards the Arabs by turning over strategic sights to them prior to the mandate.

I don’t call it a smoke screen when the information comes from a foilhat website.

Posted by: Keith at August 12, 2006 7:20 PM
Comment #175172

Jeff

That would be Golda Meir

Posted by: Keith at August 12, 2006 7:21 PM
Comment #175176

And of course all of the arab civilians who died were just unfortunate collateral damage. except, hold on, there weren’t any Brits in Deir Yassin, only civilians. See Keith, you’re either against terrorism or you’re not. If you condemn terrorism from one source, you cannot credibly excuse it from another. It just seems that if Israel/ Zionists do it, it’s ok, but when the Arabs do it, What? Savage B**tards. That’s what’s called double standards, and you cannot bring about peace with double standards and treating one side as immune to criticism no matter what. But as my Dad used to like to say, “there are none so blind and those who will not see!

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at August 12, 2006 7:31 PM
Comment #175177

sorry about that last post, slight typo! It should have read, none so blind as those who will not see.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at August 12, 2006 7:32 PM
Comment #175183

Paul

I think Keith’s point is that Israel has long ago abandoned using those tactics. the islaimofascist have perfected the art.

when they stop using those tactics themselves THEN and only then will we talk peace.

Jeff

Posted by: Jeff at August 12, 2006 8:36 PM
Comment #175190

Deir Yassin, always the great point they use to come back on Israel. Yes Izal and Lechi attacked.Yes a large number of civilians died. No one was raped. It was a house to house battle and both sides told the civillians to get lost. I have both the Internal and U.N Investigations. I look at it again but I believe the facts cleared Begin. Shreron was 19 at the time and was fighting the road to Jerusalem. So if He wasn’t there how could he have participated. Besides he was in the proper Jewish agency Hagganah. He joined Lekud later.
K

Posted by: kuzriel at August 12, 2006 9:18 PM
Comment #175197

Jeff, Israel has no need of such methods now, they are the regional superpower. As a senior IDF officer said, we will take Lebanon back 20 years. And they have. When you have main battle tanks, F16’s, Apache attack helicopters and all of the ordnance that goes with these, not to mention the mobile artillery. Can you really be serious? Why in hell would they use those primitive methods? Islamofacists is just a label applied to dehumanise a whole group of people, in the same way Jews were called names to dehumanise them so as to facilitate their genocide.

Kuzriel, here’s a zionist link for you on Deir Yassin…
http://www.ariga.com/peacewatch/dy/

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at August 12, 2006 9:59 PM
Comment #175208

Shalom achshav a zionest sight (Peace now) they are anti-zionist. I know what they say - besides I read documents of the time or legal papoers. K

Posted by: kuzriel at August 12, 2006 11:04 PM
Comment #175213

Well I’ve looked and here you have the verdect of the commision, including The Berzait investigation.
Here is the Red Cross report (the red Cresant did not exist):
“The next day on the hour and in the location upon which we agreed, an individual in civilian clothes, but with pistols stuffed in his pockets, jumps into my car and tells me to drive without stopping. At my request, he agrees to show me the road to Deir Yasin, but he admits not being able to do to much more for me. We drive out of Jerusalem, leave the main road and the last regular army post and we turn in on a cross road. Very soon two soldiers stop us. They look alarming with machine guns in full view and larger cutlasses at the belt.

“I recognize the uniform of those I am looking for. I must leave the car and lend myself to bodily search. Then I understand that I am a prisoner. All seems lost when a very big fellow … jostles his friends, takes my hand … He understands neither English nor French, but in German we arrive at a perfect understanding. He tells me his joy at seeing an ICRC delegate, for having been a prisoner in a camp for Jews in Germany he owes his life to nothing else but our intervention and three reprieves. He says that I am more than a brother for him and that he will do anything I ask. … We go to Deir Yasin.

“Having reached a ridge 500 meters from the village which we see below, we must wait a long time for permission to go ahead. The shooting from the Arab side starts every time somebody tries to cross the road and the Commander of the Irgun detachment does not seem willing to relieve me. Finally he arrives, young, distinguished, perfectly correct, but his eyes have a strange, cruel, cold look. I explain my mission to him which has nothing in common with that of a judge or arbiter. I want to help the wounded and bring back the dead.

“Moreover, the Jews have signed a pledge to respect the Geneva Convention and my mission is therefore an official one. This last statement provokes the anger of this officer who asks me to consider once and for all that here it is the Irgun who are in command and nobody else, not even the Jewish Agency with which they have nothing in common.

“My (guide) hearing the raised voices intervenes … Suddenly the officer tells me I can act as I see fit but on my own responsibility. He tells me the story of this village populated by about 400 Arabs, disarmed since always and living on good terms with the Jews who encircled them. According to him, the Irgun arrived 24 hours previously and ordered by loudspeaker the whole population to evacuate all the buildings and surrender. There is a 15 minute delay in the execution of the command. Some of the unhappy people came forward and would have been taken prisoners and then turned loose shortly afterwards toward the Arab lines. The rest did not obey the order and suffered the fate they deserved. But one must not exaggerate for there are only a few dead who would be buried as soon as the `clean up’ of the village is over. If I find a bodies, I can take them with me, but there are certainly no wounded.
A final body count of 254 was reported by The New York Times on April 13, a day after they were finally buried.
A 1987 study undertaken by Birzeit University’s Center for Research and Documentation of Palestinian Society found “the numbers of those killed does not exceed 120”.
Operation Nachshon was launched on April 6, 1948, with the aim of opening up the road to Jerusalem. The village of Deir Yassin was included on the list of Arab villages to be occupied as part of that operation. Indeed, while fierce fighting was going on at Kastel, Arab reinforcements flooded onto the battlefield through Deir Yassin, which helped to drive back the Jewish occupying force.

When the Haganah command learned of the plan of the Irgun and Lehi to conquer Deir Yassin, David Shaltiel, Haganah Commander in Jerusalem, asked them to coordinate the timing of the operation with the scheduled renewed assault on Kastel. He despatched identical letters to Mordechai Raanan (Irgun Commander in Jerusalem) and Yehoshua Zetler (Lehi Commander in Jerusalem), in which he gave their operation his approval.On April 2, 1948, the inhabitants of Deir Yassin began sniping at the Jewish Quarters of Bet Hakerem and Yefe Nof. According to reports by the Shai (Haganah Intelligence), fortifications were being constructed in the village and a large quantity of arms being stockpiled. Several days before the attack on Deir Yassin, the presence of foreign fighters was reported, including Iraqi soldiers and irregular forces. An Arab research study conducted at Bir Zeit University (near Ramallah) relates that the men of Deir Yassin took an active part in violent acts against Jewish targets and that many of the men of the village fought in the battle for Kastel, together with Abd-el-Kadr el-Husseini. The report also stated that trenches had been dug at the entry to the village, and that more than 100 men had been trained and equipped with rifles and Bren guns. A local guard force had been set up and 40 inhabitants guarded the village every night. (Knaana Sherif, The Palestinian villages destroyed in 1948 - Deir Yassin. Bir Zeit University, Documentation and Research Department 1987).Firstly, strict orders were given in advance to the fighters not to harm the elderly, women and children. It was also stated explicitly that any Arab who surrendered was to be taken prisoner.

Secondly, an unprecedented action took place at Deir Yassin - a loudspeaker was installed on an armored car to inform the population that the road to Ein Karem was open and safe, and that whoever left the village would not be harmed. The strike force was actually prepared to forfeit the surprise element of battle in order to issue these instructions and thus to prevent Arab civilian casualty. Thirdly, it is universally agreed that there was bitter fighting at Deir Yassin. More than 100 Arab fighters were well equipped and had large amounts of ammunition. The Arabs occupied fortified positions in stone buildings, while the attackers were exposed to enemy fire. The fierce gunfire directed from the houses forced the attackers to charge, throw grenades and, in several cases, to blow up houses. As a consequence, women and children were among the dead.
According to all the documents and testimonies, it is clear today that fewer than one hundred Arabs were killed at Deir Yassin, and not the 240 as published.All the Arab casualties were killed in the course of the fighting. Villagers - men, women and children - who surrendered, were taken prisoner and came to no harm. When the firing ceased, they were transported by truck to East Jerusalem and handed over to their Arab brethren.Hazen Nusseibeh, an editor of the Palestine Broadcasting Service’s Arabic news in 1948, was interviewed for the BBC television series “Israel and the Arabs: the 50-year conflict.”“I asked Dr. Khalidi how we should cover the story,” recalled Nusseibeh, now living in Amman. He said, “We must make the most of this”. So we wrote a press release stating that at Deir Yassin children were murdered, pregnant women were raped. All sorts of atrocities.”

A Deir Yassin survivor, identified as Abu Mahmud, said the villagers protested at the time.We said, ‘there was no rape.’ Khalidi said, ‘We have to say this, so the Arab armies will come to liberate Palestine from the Jews’.”
k

Posted by: kuzriel at August 13, 2006 12:00 AM
Comment #175271

Political correctness has a goal of leading the west into socialism. A part of the religion of the politically correct is the fact that the west is evil, wrong to extend or use it’s considerable power to influnence world events. By logical extension, any foreign force that opposes the US is ligitimate and the “progressives” become propaganda mouth pieces for said powers.

Hence we see American progressives participating in racist Jew hate wrapped up not as racisim but politically correct “anti Israel” lable. And thus the progressives put forward the propagada of terrorists and insurgants hoping to defeat the will of America to oppose the politically correct Anti America, anti Israel, anti west forces.

Wrapped up in the religion of the left is a fierce anti-War, rabid appeasement. No sacrifice no matter how great is too much in order to avoid conflict or war. Genocide in Africa? Who cares, toss food at them and whine a little.

Mad men developing nukes so they can wipe out Israel and toss dirty bombs at the US? Boring, talk with them until they have the bombs then hide.

The rabid left sees any price we may have to pay in the future as worthwhile if we can appease today. And any decision that weakens America and weakens capitalism is good as they push us toward socialism. The lessons of the past which teach us that appeasement provides a false sense of security and ultimatley fails are simply dismissed as if they are something that happened before man evolved to todays supposedly “enlightened” stage.

But the only ones that seem to really LACK ENLIGHTENMENT are the progressives who are deluding themselves and all who will listen to them.

Posted by: Steve at August 13, 2006 4:35 AM
Comment #175274

Steve, the real danger to the west is those people who use cliche and slogans instead of the hard work of thinking things through and coming to a deeper understanding of the world we all inhabit. I don’t think its so much down to lack of grey matter, perhaps just that’s its much easier to take your views off the shelf, rather than develop some for yourself. Another word for that is laziness.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at August 13, 2006 7:02 AM
Comment #175289

Steve, wow, thanks for explaining what progressives and political correctness are all about. (I didn’t even realize the terms were synonymous; thanks for that insight.) I thought progessives were on the right side of history, what with the abolition of slavery, women suffrage, civil rights, etc., but I guess I was misled and didn’t see the march toward, well, freedom, as a plot to overthrow the United States.

And I thought that, despite some sillines, that “political correctedness” was just a derogatory term for the idea that language and thought are intertwined, and that if we want to change racist and sexist thought, understanding that our language grew out of patriarchial and anglo-centric belief systems was just, well, you know, a fairly obvious insight.

But I guess you are right — the desire to ensure basic health care for all U.S. citizens is part of an evil plot to overthrow America. Well seen and said!

Posted by: Trent at August 13, 2006 10:41 AM
Comment #175312

Paul in “Euroland”,

Yes there’s been strife on both sides. But Israel clearly offered the carrot by pulling out of Gaza. Radical Muslims, especially to include Hamas & Hezbollah, only took that as a sign of weakness … which is a sign of stupidity on their part. Now Israel is giving them the “stick”, the only thing they understand. This war is not anyone’s fault but the Islamo Fascists you so desperately desire to ignore.

Posted by: Ken Strong at August 13, 2006 1:56 PM
Comment #175350

I don’t associate Islamofascists with all muslims. Hell I work with several and they are good and noble people.

I only apply that term to the radical fringe, not muslims as a whole. because that’s quite what they are radical fascist. If Israel did not exist they would find some other excuse to wage their war.

There was a cleric that was kicked out of Spain recently because he was preaching the return of southern Spain to as he put it “our great Empire”
referring to the Ottoman empire. That is what they truly want.. their return to world power.

Jeff

Posted by: Jeff at August 13, 2006 8:30 PM
Comment #175378

Jeff, I work with people from all over the world. The Muslims I work with all have one thing in common. They are scared. They will not denounce the terrorists. Those who are not terrroists in my opinon support them through their Acquiescence. The only Arab I personaly know that denounces the terrorists LEFT THE MUSLIM RELIGON. It took a change of faith before he could come forward and denonce terrorism and radical Islam.

In the last day or two we saw the sight of American Muslim leadership standing up and demanding that the US Press never report if a terrorists is a Muslim or a radical Islamic. Imagine that, they want our free press taken from us and replaced with a press that hides the radical Islamic war against us.

In Europe, British Muslims just stood up and demanded that their governments obey the will of the Islamic people so they can “have peace”.

Political correctness in action. Muslims dictating to the weak the special consideration that they will receive if the weak want peace. Their right to terrorize without others knowing via the free press that it’s the radical muslims doing it. Their right to dictate foreign policy. And many other such “rights” will be demanded in the future as the terror wars continue.

I feel that the west is faltering. And the progressives who have come close to running the democratic party are unfortunately on the wrong side.

Posted by: steve at August 13, 2006 11:28 PM
Comment #175426

Steve

I don’t disagree with anything you just said..

there are a VERY few who have the courage to stand up a say they are wrong and still stay in the faith.

Jeff

Posted by: jeff at August 14, 2006 11:33 AM
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