"Massive," Intercontinental Jihad Plot Foiled In UK

Earlier today, British authorities thwarted a “homegrown” Jihadist plot of global proportions, demonstrating yet again that a terrorist’s mind is his own worst enemy.

The Facts

The foiled operation, which officials have described as  "suggestive of an Al Qaeda plot," involved the detonation of explosive devices on anywhere from 6 to 10 planes, originating from the UK and destined for US soil. The Jihadists were to assemble the liquid-based explosives in mid-flight and the intent was to inflict "mass murder on an unimaginable scale."

According to Sky News, "Five US cities are thought to have been among the targets, including New York, Washington and Los Angeles."

So far, 21 suspects have been arrested in connection to the plot, though as many as 50 people may have been involved. Still, Home Secretary Scott Reid assures that the "main players" are accounted for.

The Rest Of The Story

Islamist cowards are demonstrating once again that their hatred for the West knows no bounds. As always, the intended targets  were to be civilians and the destruction was to be immense. Thankfully, our friends in the UK were way ahead of these intellectually deficient hate-mongers, whose only provable thought  process revolves around Jihad.

The suspects are British nationals of Pakistani descent and their understanding of Islam differs from that of President Bush, who claims, "Islam is peace."

As always, apologists in the media are either misrepresenting the terrorists involved, or otherwise offering "the Westerners had it coming" defense for the Jihadist plot.

From Sky News:

Sky News' Crime Correspondent Martin Brunt said those under arrest are mainly young, British-born men of Asian origin.

Asian origin? When was the last time a Chinese guy hijacked a plane in the name of Allah?

Al-Reuters, meanwhile, is doing another "photoshop job" on this story (click here if you don't understand the "photoshop" reference):

Britain has been criticized by Islamist militants for its military campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan.

British Prime Minister Tony Blair has also come under fire at home and abroad for following the U.S. lead and refusing to call for an immediate ceasefire in the conflict between Israel and Lebanese Hizbollah guerrillas.

What the Hell does the war between Israel and Hezbollah have to do with this operation? The terrorist plot has been in the works for several months while the fighting in Lebanon started less than a month ago.

And then there's the BBC, which has upheld its ridiculous editorial policy not to use the term "terrorism," when describing terrorist activity -- unless, of course, they are quoting someone else. Seriously, if hijacking a plane with the specific intent of destroying innocent life is not terrorism, then what is? Then again, if BBC headquarters were targeted by a similar plot, I wouldn't call it terrorism, but rather constructive criticism.

Nevertheless, today is a great day. Our friends across the Atlantic thwarted a major terrorist attack that America was the target of, and for that we must be thankful. Better yet, Islamofascists throughout the world received a clear message from the West, detailing the impotence of evil in the face of righteousness. One can only hope that their final years on Earth will offer a painful glimpse at the Hell they have yet to face in the hereafter.

Posted by Dr Politico at August 10, 2006 1:53 PM
Comments
Comment #174557

I’m glad someone knows how to connect the dots.

Posted by: d.a.n at August 10, 2006 2:18 PM
Comment #174560

I just thankful we borrowed and spent all that money to fight the terrorists in Iraq so they wouldn’t try to attack us here.

I’m also thankful that we now have in this great nation of ours a terrific method for forcing the whole nation to collectively stop in their tracks and focus on the constant “fear” they are now living in. Yes, that’s right…we’re now at alert level RED! No time to save grandma, just batten down the hatches, roll up in the fetal position and start sucking your thumbs!

National security has become a f’n joke!

Posted by: Kevin23 at August 10, 2006 2:26 PM
Comment #174562

d.a.n if you don’t mind, I’ll continue connecting the dots:

The Guardian reported on June 23, 2006: Poll shows Muslims in Britain are the most anti-western in Europe.

&

Edinburgh Evening News reported on August 7, 2006: 7/7 bombings ‘justified’ say a quarter of British Muslims.

Anyone could have seen this coming.

Posted by: Mike Tate at August 10, 2006 2:29 PM
Comment #174563

Well Doc, it’s early days yet, so lets not jump the gun. Only last year British SS and Police and Special forces slaughtered a Brazilian in the underground in a follow up to the 7/7 bombings in London. They initially insisted that he was part of the bombing conspiracy, until later they had to make a humiliating climbdown, and acknowledge the dead mans innocence. They followed this up this year with a raid by 250 police and ss personnel on a suburban home, where they shot one of the occupants, they now say “by accident”. In the immediate aftermath, they claimed that they had compelling evidence that there was a plot to produce chem or bio weapons, I don’t recall which. Well blow me down, after weeks of pulling that house apart, found no evidence, and those arrested were freed without charge. Lets see how this one plays out.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at August 10, 2006 2:31 PM
Comment #174565

I would be very careful about characterizing people who are willing to kill themselves for a cause as being ‘cowards”. They may be misguided, confused, completely wrong in their actions but cowards they are not.
P.s are you writing from Iraq as you serve your country? No? Then what are you, brave??

Posted by: Charles Ross at August 10, 2006 2:39 PM
Comment #174568

No Charlie Ross, he’s just another chicken hawk shouting his ignorance from the safety of his University. Heaven forbid he would be expected to live up to his rhetoric and join his forces to fight for what he believes. That’s something best left to the lower orders to do.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at August 10, 2006 2:46 PM
Comment #174570

I hope they torture the hell out of these guys, so we can uncover more terrorist plots and capture as many people involved as we can, so more innocent lives are saved. Oops, I mean I hope they get three meals a day, are comfortable in their in their new surroundings, and have the opportunity to play soccer.

Posted by: Brian B at August 10, 2006 2:51 PM
Comment #174572

Assuming this plot proves to be a real one we should all be grateful to the Brits for uncovering it and (hopefully) nipping it in the bud. But it should also cause us to reflect:

Has our presence in Iraq done one thing to prevent terrorist plots such as this one? No. It was Al Queda that pulled off the September 11 attack, and most likely Al Queda that was behind this plot. In the five years since 9/11, what have we done to diminish Al Queda’s capacity to reek terror. Nothing. OBL is still at large. AQ is probably stronger than ever. And we’re embroiled in an unwinnable situation in Iraq that has nothing to do with the terrorism that threatened and continues to threaten us.

Posted by: Stan at August 10, 2006 2:57 PM
Comment #174579

I know this will fly in the face on many people here (oh well). Just a reminder of intentions and focus:

“Q Mr. President, in your speeches now you rarely talk or mention Osama bin Laden. Why is that? Also, can you tell the American people if you have any more information, if you know if he is dead or alive? Final part — deep in your heart, don’t you truly believe that until you find out if he is dead or alive, you won’t really eliminate the threat of —

THE PRESIDENT: Deep in my heart I know the man is on the run, if he’s alive at all. Who knows if he’s hiding in some cave or not; we haven’t heard from him in a long time. And the idea of focusing on one person is — really indicates to me people don’t understand the scope of the mission.

Terror is bigger than one person. And he’s just — he’s a person who’s now been marginalized. His network, his host government has been destroyed. He’s the ultimate parasite who found weakness, exploited it, and met his match. He is — as I mentioned in my speech, I do mention the fact that this is a fellow who is willing to commit youngsters to their death and he, himself, tries to hide — if, in fact, he’s hiding at all.

So I don’t know where he is. You know, I just don’t spend that much time on him, Kelly, to be honest with you. I’m more worried about making sure that our soldiers are well-supplied; that the strategy is clear; that the coalition is strong; that when we find enemy bunched up like we did in Shahikot Mountains, that the military has all the support it needs to go in and do the job, which they did.

And there will be other battles in Afghanistan. There’s going to be other struggles like Shahikot, and I’m just as confident about the outcome of those future battles as I was about Shahikot, where our soldiers are performing brilliantly. We’re tough, we’re strong, they’re well-equipped. We have a good strategy. We are showing the world we know how to fight a guerrilla war with conventional means.

Q But don’t you believe that the threat that bin Laden posed won’t truly be eliminated until he is found either dead or alive?

THE PRESIDENT: Well, as I say, we haven’t heard much from him. And I wouldn’t necessarily say he’s at the center of any command structure. And, again, I don’t know where he is. I — I’ll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him. I know he is on the run. I was concerned about him, when he had taken over a country. I was concerned about the fact that he was basically running Afghanistan and calling the shots for the Taliban.

But once we set out the policy and started executing the plan, he became — we shoved him out more and more on the margins. He has no place to train his al Qaeda killers anymore. And if we — excuse me for a minute — and if we find a training camp, we’ll take care of it. Either we will or our friends will. That’s one of the things — part of the new phase that’s becoming apparent to the American people is that we’re working closely with other governments to deny sanctuary, or training, or a place to hide, or a place to raise money.”

Posted by: tony at August 10, 2006 3:10 PM
Comment #174583

Hang on to the thought tony, cuz it’ll be a sad day for the dems when OBL is caught.

Posted by: Brian B at August 10, 2006 3:24 PM
Comment #174587

Dr P,
As sure as you are they will rot in hell, they are as sure you will. To automatically assume you are “in the know” is just racism. Calling them terrorists is just name calling. They are fighting their combatants the only way they can though I’m sure you would prefer they attack a tank with a handgun.

Only when we treat all foreigners respectfully as we wish they would treat us will this stop. Your methods of escalation and name calling have a wholly unproven record of success.

Posted by: Chimp at August 10, 2006 3:32 PM
Comment #174590

Chimp…are you blaming America? Just want to know.

Posted by: Brian B at August 10, 2006 3:40 PM
Comment #174593

Just suggesting a solution. Radical as it may sound. Security works. Being at war with them doesn’t. Someday that may not sound so crazy.

Posted by: Chimp at August 10, 2006 3:44 PM
Comment #174595

“cuz it’ll be a sad day for the dems when OBL is caught.”

??? Who the hell doesn’t want this asshole caught? I mean, aside from Bush? Here’s the point - we are fighting the same enemy who is at the same strength last time they attacked us in 2001. We have accomplished nothing but fostering their recruitment and allowed them time to become entrenched while we went to play in the sandbox.

” There is only one course of action against them: to defeat them abroad before they attack us at home. ” - Bush, 2005

Iraq has become SOP for these terrorists - and they can now send combat trained terrorists in any direction they choose. They caught 21 of a suspected 50 people involved. Do you think some of these people might be unknown, and possible have valid visas? Do you think they might wait until they are in the US before attempting their attacks?

We should’ve been spending the past 5 years digging out these terrorist cells and learning everything about how they operate, and now we have to play guessing games and catch up. I wonder if Bush is thinking more about Bin Laden today than he was 3 years ago.

Posted by: tony at August 10, 2006 3:46 PM
Comment #174596

Why dont we just admit this country is a bunch of soft candy asses and we like it that way (testosterone filled young military not included). Talk is easy.

Posted by: Chimp at August 10, 2006 3:48 PM
Comment #174597

“are you blaming America?”

Do you think there might be something in our past that would’ve created hatred towards America? It’s usually good to understand the enemy so that you can at least hope to follow their train of thought and potential actions.

Or we can ignore the past and sing “they hate freedom! they hate freedom!” as loud as we can until they blow up someone we know. They don’t hate freedom, they hate Americans. That’s a pretty key element in the driving force of our enemy. Probably a good thing to understand.

Posted by: tony at August 10, 2006 3:51 PM
Comment #174598

And dont tell me about the battle of the bulge or something. You werent there and chances are your ancestor dad was not one of the super heroic or he’d of been killed and you wouldnt be here.

Posted by: chimp at August 10, 2006 3:52 PM
Comment #174600

Guessing games? Sounds like every time a terrorist plot is stopped it is somehow a guessing game. Dems are trying to downplay this, the same way they will try to downplay when OBL is finally caught.

Posted by: Brian B at August 10, 2006 3:53 PM
Comment #174602

Brian -

OBL is a 6 ft 4 inch man surrounded by 5 ft 5 in people. I’m amazed he has not been caught yet… but 5 years of looking, with 3 years off in the middle hardly qualifies as stellar performance.

Hell, I think it’s down right pathetic, but who knows… maybe I hate freedom too.

Posted by: tony at August 10, 2006 3:57 PM
Comment #174603

Hey Tony, I can get you a job writing scripts for “B” movies. I am tremendously grateful to the Brits for discovering this plot. While I, as a person of Irish descent, have much to dislike about the British treatment of my fore-fathers, they are a staunch ally of freedom and democracy in the world today.
I am also thankful that the BBC and/or the N.Y. Times did not get wind of this plot as they surley would have considered it their editorial duty to prematurely disclose it. Many news agencies continue to believe they owe their allegiance to terrorism over innocent civilians and keeping secrets from the general public is unconstitutional.
It is very sad that some people take this opportunity to celebrate viligance and saving hundreds of innocents from a terrible death as an excuse to hammer President Bush. How demented must those folks be? Jim

Posted by: Jim at August 10, 2006 3:59 PM
Comment #174606

Tony,

We know why they hate Americans. I’m not sure why you are trying to change the reason… Islamic fascists are on a holy war to destroy all non-islamic socieites and prevent anyone from living life as they think it should be. Everyone should be a muslim. Our ‘decadent’ lifestyle is causing people to stray from the right and proper path of the muslim.

So… I guess we could all avoid their hatred of us by becoming Muslim and living a quasi shia rule. Or sunni. oh wait a second… CRAP.

Posted by: Rhinehold at August 10, 2006 4:02 PM
Comment #174607

Or we could do as Trey and Matt suggest…

If we Bury our Heads in the Sand they won’t Attack Us.

Posted by: Rhinehold at August 10, 2006 4:04 PM
Comment #174608

Oh… that’s right Jim… President Bush should always be spared critisism because??? Well, why don’t you tell me why I should lay off Bush.

The Brits took care of this one, but the crap is getting extremely close to home. Bush has been saying for years that we’re fighting them over there - yet here they are, ready to cross the Atlantic.

Bush took his eyes off the ball… and this one seems to be pretty close. Do you think we should wait for the next successful attack before asking Bush if he is now starting to think more about Bin Laden?

Posted by: tony at August 10, 2006 4:06 PM
Comment #174609

Tony,

Oh, btw, what if we do find that they hate us because… Oh because we helped the shah of Iran a few decades ago. Or are currently supporting Israel monitarily.

What are you suggesting we do once we have this information, change our country and apologize for being evil? Seriously, what is your suggestion once we glean this information from them…

Posted by: Rhinehold at August 10, 2006 4:08 PM
Comment #174615

Rhinehold -

No, nothing so cynical… I would like us to learn a few lessons along the way. We’re just not very sophisticated with our interactions over there, and it usually bites us in the ass. For instance, 100000 Iraqis marching to support Hezbollah. That really makes our interaction with Israel, Palestine and Lebanon very dicey with regards to a country on the brink of civil war. If we allow (or are seen as allowing) Israel to continue their move into Lebanon, especially with our weapons… our US soldiers could be the new enemy in Iraq. If that escalates high enough, it could actually unite Sunis and Shias against us across the Middle East.

Posted by: tony at August 10, 2006 4:28 PM
Comment #174617

If a terrorist plot is foiled how can you say Bush took his eye off the ball? Wouldn’t the attack have to succeed for Bush to take his eye off the ball?

Posted by: Brian B at August 10, 2006 4:37 PM
Comment #174619

The Brits caught this one… right?

Posted by: tony at August 10, 2006 4:41 PM
Comment #174620

Do you have information saying they were the only ones involved?

Posted by: Brian B at August 10, 2006 4:43 PM
Comment #174621

ummm… the news media: British, Pakistani authorities team up to block plot to bomb U.S.-bound jets, officials say…

Do you have information?

Posted by: tony at August 10, 2006 4:45 PM
Comment #174623

How was the ball dropped?

Posted by: Brian B at August 10, 2006 4:47 PM
Comment #174624

In case you feel this one is over…

“Five suspects in the plot are still at large, ABC News reported on its Web site, citing U.S. sources.” And they say as many as 50 people might be involved.

These plots are extremely similar to a plan written 12 years ago… can you name a single thing done in the US (until this morning) that was done that would’ve prevent this kind of attack.

Can you name a single thing in the 9/11 commision’s report that has been followed thru?

That’s what I mean by dropping the ball. No focus, nothing done and someone else saved the day.

Feel safe?

Posted by: tony at August 10, 2006 4:51 PM
Comment #174625

My Name Is Roger:

QUESTION ? I Wonder how the people who did not vote for LIBERMAN feel now?

They voted agains him because he supported Prersiden Bush’s fight agains… AlQaeda and Jihad and Islamic Terrorists.

YOU KNOW and I KNOW and EVERYONE IN THE UNITED STATES KNOWS…. SOMEWHERE SOMEHOW 911 IS GOING TO HAPPEN AGAIN !

If ever we needed the protection of ALMIGHT GOD… IT IS NOW. We as American need to get upon our knees and pray as Daniel did “O LORD, GREAT AND AWESOME GOD, WHO KEEPS HIS COVENANT AND MERCY WITH THOSE WHO LOVE HIM, AND WITH THOSE WHO KEEP HIS CONMANDMENTS, [ WE HAVE SINNED AND COMMITTED INQUITY, WE HAVE DONE WICKEDLY AND REBELLED, EVEN BY DEPARTING FROM YOUR PRECEPTS AND YOUR JUDGEMENTS ]”. Daniel 9:4 & 5

We have taken prayer out of our schools.

We have permited people to live immorral lifestyles.

We have supported and promoted gay lifestyles.

We have allowed 1,460,000 unborn babies to be murdered each year.

We sit still and say nothing when we hear proposals to take { ONE NATION UNDER GOD } out of our pledge of alliances.

We sit still and say nothing when we hear of proposals to take { IN GOD WE TRUST } from our money.

We sit still and say nothing when some of the most vulger and inmorral things are presented on televesion and in the movies.

We sit still and say nothing when some of the most vulger language is presented by the music industry.

We sit still and say nothing when we hear of so called men of God molesting and raping little boys and girles.

We sit still and do notjhing…….( I COULD GO ON AND ON AND ON AN ON ) but I think you get the point! !

QUESTION: IF YOU WERE GOD… WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

We claim to be a God fearing, God honoring country, but are we realy?

ROGER


Posted by: ROGER at August 10, 2006 4:52 PM
Comment #174627

Cower in fear, attack is imminent.

Just in case you needed to be reminded, another major plot is foiled. Bush has just saved thousands of American lives, All Hail Bush, the savior.

Or, could this just have been the decoy? Look one way, while they prepare for a different type of attack. Don’t let your guard down. Cower in fear!

Oh, I keep fogetting. Bush removed the word “gullible” from the english language, so this all MUST be true.

hehe

Posted by: mem beth at August 10, 2006 4:54 PM
Comment #174630

So if our allies do something great it means we must have failed.

Posted by: Brian B at August 10, 2006 4:59 PM
Comment #174631

Jim-

“Many news agencies continue to believe they owe their allegiance to terrorism over innocent civilians and keeping secrets from the general public is unconstitutional.”

No, they believe in the freedom of the press to report on newsworthy events and the freedom to not be censored by the government in doing so. The notable exceptions are in wars and it only restricts strategic info like where a certain division is moving to, etc. Under this definition of war, everything everywhere is a potential target, so where can you draw the line as to what is considered strategic info? So any report whatsoever showing any weakness anywhere is now censored? Sounds like North Korean media.

I for one am glad we have the media on the ground in every troubled spot. Its just too bad most dont do MORE fieldwork. I shutter to think what this administration would have pushed through under the radar were it not for the NY Times and many others.

Posted by: Kevin23 at August 10, 2006 5:02 PM
Comment #174633

Wow - Brian, you’re talking like a psychologist. Stop asking questions and offer up some answers… Since everything is so clear, these obvious concerns should be easy to address.

Let’s start with the 9/11 Commisssion.

Posted by: tony at August 10, 2006 5:03 PM
Comment #174634

Just asking how you could come to your conclusion. Just seems your blaming Bush for the Brits fine work.

Posted by: Brian B at August 10, 2006 5:06 PM
Comment #174637

I say, “Good show!” to the Brits. I say to Dr. Politico, “Let’s tone down the religious rhetoric; the world has had quite enough of that kind of talk.”

The times call for cool heads and clear thinking.

Posted by: Trent at August 10, 2006 5:14 PM
Comment #174639

“Just seems your blaming Bush for the Brits fine work.”

Oh no, I’m fully prepared not to give Bush any credit at all for the Brits fine work. :)

My conclusions have been propped up by an attempted plot by terrorists in which I see no preparedness on our part. I think this should spur us all into immediate actions to fix this, not popping Champaign corks. I’d rather look for leaks before the roof comes down on my head. How about you?

Posted by: tony at August 10, 2006 5:18 PM
Comment #174640

BrianB:
“Just seems your blaming Bush for the Brits fine work.”

Seems to me that tony is alluding to the fact that we aren’t capable of doing similar good work. This, because the administration has spent an enormous amout of our taxpayer dollars, but hasn’t actually done squat to keep our country secure.

Roger,
Your post is completely and totally off topic. Maybe you don’t realize it, but this is a political blog, not a bible study blog.

mem beth, good question.

Kevin, excellent reply to Jim.

Posted by: Adrienne at August 10, 2006 5:24 PM
Comment #174644

Don’t you see it? It is all connected.
The War on Terror, Iran and North Korea nukes, China having ‘little’ influence over its allies, relations with France, Russia, and the UN strained, Our oil prices, Environmentalists not letting us drill, Hugo Chavez’s speech and new alliance, Hamas and Hezbollah attacking Israel, and Al Qaida attack us, and OUR OPEN BORDERS!

The Arab countries, Venezuela, and North Korea uniting against us, China doing nothing, Russia supplying them. All are bad signs for the US.

The world is bending to Islam’s will. Europe, except for the UK, is broken and spineless. Muslims everywhere are on their way to getting their dream fulfilled. The US and Israel destroyed.

In order to stop the madness, we must get out of OPEC oil. Our oil should satisfy us until alternatives can be produced. We must close the borders. Muslims are shaving their beards and trying to cross through the US-Mexican border.

We still have plenty of time to wake up and save the West! Only united can our enemies defeat us and they are starting to realize that. Iran most of all.

Posted by: stubborn conservative at August 10, 2006 5:43 PM
Comment #174647

sc-

I agree about the oil. This is their funding, and we must rid ourselves of this addiction before it kills us.

Not sure about the Mexican border… i think the terrorists are quite willing to come straight into our country through major international center. These guys today were British. Do you think they could’ve had proper paper to gain access here? I think it would’ve been the easiet part of their journey.

Posted by: tony at August 10, 2006 5:47 PM
Comment #174652

Terrorist who kill themselves while killing others may or may not be cowards, but they are misguided. If they believe the 72 virgin crap they are not very smart. Suicide bombing is a tactic used by terror leaders. Simple as that. They will use it as long as it works or until they run out of gullible young people. We probably cannot dry up the supply of foolish young people, so we have to try to make sure it doesn’t work. Thanks to the Brits in this case.

There is a reasonable argument over a suicide being a cowardly act or not. It is not an act of bravery. It is bravery to risk or sacrifice something you do not want to give up. Suicide is a prosaic occurance. Lots of people kill themselves every day. Many times they are messed up teenagers or people with substance abuse problems. I did not think Maryln Monroe, Judy Garland or Silvia Plath were brave because they killed themselves. I am not sure they were cowards either. They were just pathetic., just misguided. The suicide part of the terrorist is probably something like that.

The problem with the terrorist is that they are also murderers.

Posted by: Jack at August 10, 2006 5:59 PM
Comment #174659

On September 12, 2001 President Bush should have called on the American people and the US government to make a significant effort to ween ourselves from foreign oil, and increase usage of domestically produced alternative energy sources in order to fight this war on terror. The simple fact that he didn’t proves that he and his closest supporters don’t care about the safety of Americans, they only care about money.

Posted by: bushflipflops at August 10, 2006 6:10 PM
Comment #174665

The world is bending to Islam’s will. Europe, except for the UK, is broken and spineless. Muslims everywhere are on their way to getting their dream fulfilled. The US and Israel destroyed.

In order to stop the madness, we must get out of OPEC oil. Our oil should satisfy us until alternatives can be produced. We must close the borders. Muslims are shaving their beards and trying to cross through the US-Mexican border.

We still have plenty of time to wake up and save the West! Only united can our enemies defeat us and they are starting to realize that. Iran most of all.
Posted by: stubborn conservative at August 10, 2006 05:43 PM

That’s an interesting comment about Britain Stub, considering French security services have long since described it as Londonistan. And I don’t think you would get too many British people agreeing with you there.

Your comments about the saving the West are also interesting. In fact what made the West a great and enlightened civilisation was the centuries long struggle against ignorance and superstition. It was the challenge to develop a civilisation that was built on evidence rather than fear driven irrationality that has brought out the best in our civilisation. Imagine that there are many people who believe that a whole other people ( Arabs & Muslims) are so different from us in the west, so irrational and warlike, that they have to be battled by every means possible. Those same people seem totally ignorant of Western power games and meddling in the mid east by western powers, yes, even including the US, that has left the inhabitants of that region hapless and hopeless. If you want to truly celebrate the best of the west, then honour the best of its conventions. Seeking after the truth, and trying to have the humility to remove our own prejudices from our researches, retaining a never ending curiousity about our world and never holding on to our views when the facts contradict them. Now that would be a true victory for the West and would in itself secure its future.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at August 10, 2006 6:19 PM
Comment #174672

“Imagine that there are many people who believe that a whole other people ( Arabs & Muslims) are so different from us in the west, so irrational and warlike, that they have to be battled by every means possible. Those same people seem totally ignorant of Western power games and meddling in the mid east by western powers, yes, even including the US, that has left the inhabitants of that region hapless and hopeless. If you want to truly celebrate the best of the west, then honour the best of its conventions. Seeking after the truth, and trying to have the humility to remove our own prejudices from our researches, retaining a never ending curiousity about our world and never holding on to our views when the facts contradict them. Now that would be a true victory for the West and would in itself secure its future.”

Dear Paul, I love you;-)

Divide and conquer is back again.

Some of those on the right should substitute the words they use for muslims (haji, towelhead etc) for the known derogatory slang used in the past to describe, Irish, Black people, Chinese, Japanese or Jewish people and take a long look in the mirror. Nothing alarming above but on my conservative sites I’ve found that racism directed at muslims seems to have gained alarming levels of accpetance.

Dehumanise a people enough and you can kill them in large numbers and feel no responsibility. This mentality is shared by the terrorist. Do you want to think like that?

Posted by: abhcoide at August 10, 2006 6:33 PM
Comment #174673

Hi Abhcoide, I’m in Dundrum, where are you?

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at August 10, 2006 6:40 PM
Comment #174682

Adrienne-

Thanks for the encouragement. I thing Jim and others feel a very strong sense of duty to the country and feel like they are doing what is best, but they fail to realize that having a laser-like focus on one mission, let alone such a vague and subjective one as fighting “terror”, is exactly what makes good free nations turn into police states. I’m guessing it is motivated more by fear and anger than by rational thinking. The media should be our friend…just ask Alexander Hamilton how important a role they should play.

Posted by: Kevin23 at August 10, 2006 7:17 PM
Comment #174685

Dr Politico,

“Asian” is a term they use over there in GB to describe Pakistanis. A person from China would be called an “oriental”. We need to remember that while they speak the same language as we do here in the states we really don’t speak the same language.

Posted by: The Griper at August 10, 2006 7:38 PM
Comment #174688

It’s amazing that the same people who get riled when someone insults an Islamic terrorist stands by silently when the attack is against Christianity or Judaism.

As for the rest of the world being mad at us, the solution is so simple and staring us right in the face.

We withdraw all military forces back within our own borders and territorial waters, lock down our borders, change the Stars and Stripes to a white flag with a yellow peace symbol and, like the penguins in the movie “Madagascar”, just smile and wave at the rest of the world.

That’ll stop the terrorists dead in their tracks. And who knows. Maybe even the French will start saying nice things about us!

Posted by: ulysses at August 10, 2006 7:51 PM
Comment #174689

Ulysses,

Until the next disaster when everyone demands that the ‘Rich US’ must organize and send help all over the world, or the ones that demand we do something about genocides, etc.

Then there’s the unfortunately reality that we rely upon the goods and services of other countries…

You see, we TRIED that before, circa pre-WWI and WWII. Then when something evil is indeed going on we are unable to do anything about it because of our policy of extreme neutrality.

I have a better alternative that I will be posting in the middle column in a few minutes, it’s sort of ‘the other extreme’… :)

Posted by: Rhinehold at August 10, 2006 7:55 PM
Comment #174691

Paul in Euroland:

What made the West great was the freedom. The low taxes, the indepedence, the small govt, the you-are-responsible-for-your-life-not-the-govt, and the free religion, free speech, the good morals, the patriotism, and etc. Those were the things that makes the West a powerhouse. Sadly, Europe and the US seem to be drifting away.

Posted by: stubborn conservative at August 10, 2006 8:01 PM
Comment #174693

The Griper,

“We need to remember that while they speak the same language as we do here in the states we really don’t speak the same language.”

Maybe it’s just me, but I’m thinking that anyone that lives in “Asia” could be considered “Asian”.

That would include over 65 countries, stretching from Turkey, Lebanon, and Israel in the west to North and South Korea, and Japan in the east.
Also from Russia east of the Urals, on the north, to India on the south.

Geography, learn it, live it.

Posted by: Rocky at August 10, 2006 8:08 PM
Comment #174695

Asian = people

Oriental = rugs

Posted by: tony at August 10, 2006 8:12 PM
Comment #174696

Rhinehold

My post was a half-hearted attempt at sarcasm.

Many perceive the world as being anti-American because of our projection of power - military, political and economic - overseas.

But when they get in trouble, who do they turn to? They insult us and profess to hate us, then expect us to mount up and ride to their rescue.

There’s an old saying that if you burn me once, shame on you. If you burn me twice, shame on me.

We go out of our way to please nations that could give a tinker’s damn about us.

I just think we need to make it clear that the U.S. cavalry only rides for its friends and allies.

Posted by: ulysses at August 10, 2006 8:14 PM
Comment #174698

I just want to know who has gotten riled because someone “insults an Islamic terrorist”. I’ve yet to see it.

Posted by: Kevin23 at August 10, 2006 8:15 PM
Comment #174704

Paul, I’m in Dublin.

Way past my bedtime now…goodnight. Am sure I will see you on these pages again.

Posted by: abhcoide at August 10, 2006 8:24 PM
Comment #174708

ulysses,

“We go out of our way to please nations that could give a tinker’s damn about us.

I just think we need to make it clear that the U.S. cavalry only rides for its friends and allies.”

We do it because, last time I checked, we were still the good guys.

I am not going to say anything about our questionable political moves in the last century because then I would have to endure the bullshit posts about how I hate America.

We are the good guys, we have the resources, we do it because we can, not because somebody likes us.


Posted by: Rocky at August 10, 2006 8:43 PM
Comment #174709

Kevin23

Your probably right. But strike the word terrorist and change Islamic to Islam.

Jehovah can’t hold a candle to Allah when it comes to stiking fear into the hearts of the media moguls and the politically correct.

That’s why some major media outlets refuse to use the word “terrorist” when referring to terrorists.

That’s why some school boards provide prayer rooms for their Muslim students, but ban the Boy Scouts from the property because the word God appears in their motto.

The time will come when Jehovah and Allah will join in battle to settle their differences. Of course, they’ll use their minions to do the fighting.

Of course, if you believe what you read in the Koran and the Bible, the two dieties are one and the same.

So how will the winner be determined?

Just a thought.

Posted by: ulysses at August 10, 2006 8:45 PM
Comment #174710

“Islamic” Terrorists - Not “Christian” or “Jewish” or “Buddist”, etc….

They hate everyone who is not a Muslim. They believe that killing all non-Muslims (i.e. infidels) is the “Great Commision” of their religion. Christians believe in spreading their message with Bibles and Testimonies. Islamic terrorists believe in spreading their meesage with bombs, suicide missions and brutallity usually reserved for the psychopaths of society.

This IS a religious and a political issue. You can’t separate this brand of church and state. Anyone who tries does not understand history, religion or politics. Some of the comments posted by our more liberal posters show not only a lack of understanding of the ramifications of religions in this world, but also lack of a willingness to know the subject that they pontificate about. This is not only foolish but dangerous. You work from a flawed hypothosis that denies the importance of all belief systems and therefore prevents you from understanding just how bad this situation is and how much worse it will become.

Thank you to the Brits, the Pakastani and the US officials for saving our necks - again. Thank God (however you may address Him) also.

Posted by: Ilsa at August 10, 2006 9:14 PM
Comment #174714

Ilsa-

I disagree. I think most of the more liberal posters here display an enormous willingness to understand “subject that they pontificate about.” They are just not looking for the answers being force fed to them at the moment. I don’t consider myself liberal in the traditional definition, but I assume you meant me as well, and who uses traditional definitions anymore.

If what you say is remotely true, and I think it may be (remotely true), then anything that could be construed as a holy war should be avoided at all costs. Waging a holy war for democracy would seem to to miss the mark entirely, confused and doomed from the very start.

Posted by: Kevin23 at August 10, 2006 9:58 PM
Comment #174724

Does anybody remember Aun Shinrikyo, and the Tokyo Sarin attack? The use of Shinto in WWII to make fanatics and beserkers of Japanese troops? Does anybody recall the things that Hindu Fundamentalists have done to Muslims in India, their half of the tensions that saturate the Indian/Pakistani relationship? What about the use of Christian Orthodox religion or Catholicism in the Balkans to justify slaughters in different directions there?

Any religion that can bring about substantial devotion can be twisted towards evil, hatred and violence. To single out the Muslims for being especially violent, with Billons of them just minding their own business is unfair, given how others have misused their religion.

Alright, let’s move on.

Dr. Politico, you must first and foremost realize this: These people are not idiots. if you want something an idiot can handle, put a bomb in his shoe and ask him to bend over in the aisle an light a fuse before somebody can tackle him! This is folks mixing binary explosives in midflight. As counterterrorism officials have said to reporters, these people aren’t amateurs.

This might hurt your sense of superiority, but al-Qaeda is not a crew of idiots. With the Cole, they shaped explosives to fit inside the hull of the boat, avoiding searches. They coordinated two truckbomb blasts within minutes of each other in the two embassies. The Bojinka plot, which bears scary similarities to this one, was a sophisticated enterprise which required the mixture of ingredients and the handling of sensitive explosives.

The 9/11 plot is, for it’s horrible nature, a masterpiece of planning. These guys managed to get by security, hijack four planes within minutes of each other. They had people learn the controls of the worlds most advanced flying machines, which they employed with enough precison to hit two buildings not much wider than the planes themselves at hundreds of miles an hour. Idiots would not have the capacity to pull plots like this off.

Nor are these people cowards. That’s the unfortunate part. These people have a great deal of guts and ambition. The people who don’t have guts or ambitions are the ones sitting back at home. We may debate about the moral cowardice of this act, which I agree is great, but from a standpoint of staring death in the face and not flinching, these guys were all too able to pull it off.

In opposing their vicious cruelty, their immoral, fanatical activities, we must not get so deep into ascribing negative attributes that we start underestimating the strength or intelligence it takes to be that kind of bastards to the world. If we wish to beat them, we must know our enemies, and see the strengths and weakness where they really are.

Regarding Reuters, I can’t help but recall that they fired the son of a bitch and have cut him out of any further rewards for his deceptive practices. It’s a nice way of flinging more poo at the “liberal” media to call it al-Reuters, but it also ignores something else. This is quoted from the article you link to:

Last month, al Qaeda called on Muslims to fight those who backed Israel’s attacks on Lebanon and warned of attacks unless U.S. and British forces pulled out of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Bin Laden is playing on the Lebanon situation. Why shouldn’t it be reported as background that the UK is backing the US and Israel’s play?

Without such context, news stories about these events would be deficient on revelant information.

Trouble is, you don’t trust many people to make moral judgments on their own without your guidance. I think if you checked on your own a little bit, you’d find many people doing just fine. We’re not a bunch of idiots here.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at August 10, 2006 10:52 PM
Comment #174726

SD - I have a thread Idea that I’d like to suggest, but am hesitant in writing it myself until I can reconcile conflicts with my employer. If you are interested, I’d like to share it with you.

Posted by: DOC at August 10, 2006 11:07 PM
Comment #174727

Dr. Politico,

Pakistan IS in Asia.

Rocky,

“last time I checked, we were still the good guys”
Check again… we USED to be the good guys, but we’re becoming a bad joke.

bush: “…unless I stop thinking about OBL, Iraq and all that stuff. heh heh heh…”

Posted by: myles at August 10, 2006 11:16 PM
Comment #174728

Cheers to Britain, thanks for saving our butts.

Why are we still allowed to bring electronic devices or carry on items of any kind onto planes? Where are the preventative security ideas on our part?

Posted by: Max at August 10, 2006 11:19 PM
Comment #174731

Max,

There IS such a thing as going overboard with security… Many people like to spend the hours they are on a plane working or listening to music or watching movies.

IMO I still think that the ‘security measures’ of Homeland Security go too far and make airline travel almost useless for short trips any more. For example, when I travel for work if the drive is less than 8 hours or so I usually just drive it now. I’m not sure if this a GOOD idea ‘environmentally’, eschewing group travel for individual, but the wasted time and extra security that I have to go through as well as the end experience just makes the whole process undesireable to me.

Posted by: Rhinehold at August 11, 2006 12:03 AM
Comment #174733

My Name Is Roger:

ADRIENNA… The Jihad and the AlQaeda are doing what they are doing, because of their religious convection.

I am saying what I am saying, because of my religious convictions.

A persons religious convections also influence their political convections.

The Arab countries for the most part are goverened by their religious convection, and are Muslem Countried.

The people of the United States of America, for the most part believe in the God of the Bible,and
goverenened by people who also believe in the God of the Bible.

So how can you seperated God from politices?

Posted by: ROGER at August 11, 2006 12:16 AM
Comment #174734

Today was an excellent day for us all. What is extraordinary to me is how Kerry and Kennedy can manage to focus on only themselves. Today was a victory for our country. Brought to us by our Allies. By our President. Oh yah …they don’t know how to show support for anything but their own agendas.


Posted by: Heather at August 11, 2006 12:16 AM
Comment #174735
So how can you seperated God from politices

How can you not? Unless you do you end up with people just shouting bible verses at each other with no logic or debate interjected.

Remember, in order to have ‘faith’, by definition you must eschew critical thought. If something like the existence of a ‘god’ could be proven, it would no longer be faith, it would be fact.

So, by injecting religion into politics you are effectively trying to force your beliefs onto others who may or may not believe as you do. Only the government can force someone to do something against their will legally. Want to prevent two homosexuals from having a relationship? Make a law, use the force of the government to stop it. Want to prevent people from working on sunday? Make a law…

You see, by injecting religion into politics you start down the road of fascism, and you become no better than the jihadists that you rail against, forcing everyone to live their lives as a religious belief feels they should, not how THEY feel they should or society thinks works best using logic and critical thought.

Posted by: Rhinehold at August 11, 2006 12:39 AM
Comment #174736

Do libs finally get it? There are people that want us (liberals included) dead. Are we allowed to say we are at war yet and start to get this bull**** over with?

Posted by: andy at August 11, 2006 1:01 AM
Comment #174737

Heather et al.

While this was a good day (in that a terrorist plot was foiled) it was NOT “a victory for our country [the US].” These were international flights, originating elsewhere, and while some of the passengers would undoubtedly be US citizens, just as many (if not more) would be of other citizenships/nationalities/cultures. Including Muslim. And I’d bet the “detonation” points would be spread far and wide - few if any would have actually been over US soil.

It was not a “victory” for us - we weren’t even involved, from what I’ve heard. And it was most definitly NOT “Brought to us by our… President.” He’s on vacation with his head buried in the scrub-brush. So enough with the bush-chanting nationalism.

I will agree, though, it WAS most definitely “Brought to us [all] by our Allies [UK and Pakistan, again, from what I hear.]” A big congrats to them for keeping those people safe.

Posted by: myles at August 11, 2006 1:02 AM
Comment #174738

Myles- Heather said “it was a good day for ALL”, so no need to apologize for being an american on that one big guy. Anyway the destinations on those flights were mostly U.S. so we were sort of a focal point.

Belive it or not we are the superpower of the world, which is not a bad thing. Would you rather Iran, Cuba or Venenzula be the leader of the free world? I’m sorry, never mind don’t answer that.

Posted by: andy at August 11, 2006 1:19 AM
Comment #174740

Religion has nothing to do with this whole deal. Its is a matter of who has power, who has power is right. No one denies the smartness or bravery involved. It is detication to a cause regardless of the personal outcome. Yhe followers don’t care about Islam or any other religion - only power. If you look at the whole history of the so-called “Arab” states you will see more rivalry, violence and vengance amoung themselves.
I use to travel the back roads of Israel. I had 2 jobs when I went to Arab villages: First, I would slaughter the animals for a wedding; second I would circumscized those males who were near or over the age of 13. My fee was often a foreleg of lamb and a ride to and from the nearest bus. At these visits I would often see conflicts escalating beyond all logic. In one incident a cousin of the bride showed up and tried to stop the wedding. He said the bride was promised to him. As they were trying to get rid of him he pulled a knife and killed the bride and groom, guns were pulled out and he was killed by someone. The weapons got bigger in size and ability to damage. Before the police came RPG’s were used at the rivals homes.
My point is up close I saw no regard for life as we define it only honour - even death before dishonour. Honour to arabs includes killing everyone who opposes your ideas. Either Mohammud (and his lawful followers) are right or they are wrong. If they are right they will win no matter how long it takes to rid themselves of the infidels and their collaborators. Power makes right.
Let me talk about Israelis. Basically they are peacable when left allone. They remember the scars of the past deeds done to them. The majority remember but try to live. There are far fewer fanatics in Israel than even the goverment wants you to believe. They create many “radical Jews” to show the world that “We control our radicals, so why don’t you?” This was the tactic of Labour (The Jewish agency) even during Israel’s battle for independence. Out of 100 assasination attempts between 1900 and 1970 - Labour operatives were implicated in all but 8. Yet, few were caught or charged. The accused Likud publically and often sent the accused to prision only to have them vanish a few months later.
It is one man who holds the key to the truth of events in the governing of Israel. One man who sat by Ben Guron’s side, one man who knew where the missing children went. One man whp pulled the strings that Made him important in every goverment since the begining. One man who planned to rid himself of Yitsak, one man who shook Arafat’s hand and kissed him. It will be his legacy that is the death of many.
Unless Hamas and Hisbollah are defeated now - there will never be even the kiss of peace. Israeli leaders have given all The European and American ideas a chance - they have all resulted in failure and the rise of more hostile elements. Let them do what they have to — to live and thrive on one small piece of ground taken from them. A peice of ground no one wanted until they trturned.
What of Iraq? Like it says we are between Iraq and a hard place. Mistakes are made in wars - in life. America got involved for the right reasons = argue WMDs all you want, you can’t dewnie that they were there and were used. Where they there when the US arrived - possibly not, there seems to be evidence they were moved and hidden. We cannot stop the violence in the culture of yhe mid-east, inspite of teaching them our ways - here we are 200 years into our experiment and you expect others to acomplish the transition in less than four years? Whose retarted mind set that up - Congress!!
Please develop more realistic ideas about “Islamic leaders” who want power and the percieved past they never had. Even Athens fell on hard times, ans has Rome, Jerusalem and all nation. We must help them who wish to change and see the truth of our mutual brotherhood - but we cannot make them chose the path we see as correct any more than they can for us.
Conflict will end when no one has a biych about the other.
K

Posted by: kuzriel at August 11, 2006 1:35 AM
Comment #174744

andy-
We knew we were at war with these people in the Clinton years. Unfortunately we “libs”, as you so artfully call us, were accused of trying to distract from the oh-so important sex scandal with our military action against Bin Laden.

kuzriel-
Given them a chance? No. Each side has to be willing to be somewhat vulnerable, to bite back the calls for blood. Why? Because every time something good gets going, they let the provocation of a bloody few turn everything else to shit. As a foreign observer I can’t help but cringe at the idiocy of the response. That is the response that changes nothing, and has changed nothing. Until you dedicate yourself to peace above your own safety, you shall have neither. That goes for both sides.

I believe Hezbollah and Hamas will die when we make them maladapted and obsolete to the cause of those whose emotions they feed off of. This current offensive has only managed to do the opposite.

Do I oppose Israel? Let me clear that up: No. Do I oppose its right to defense? Let me clear that up: No. Do I find what they are doing foolish, despite its best intentions: Yes. Do I think people seeking honor and victory can make fools of themselves? Yes. I think that is the very definition of our situation in Iraq.

How do I think it happens? When people become more concerned with the attainment of the means to do things their way, than the question of whether the way they’re doing things or going to do things is right. Without the feedback of reality, our beliefs and assessments of a situation can spin rapidly out of the real world into fantasy land. Unfortunately, the consequences of our actions do not accompany them, and the results are often at cross purposes to what people wanted.

But then it has the opportunity to get worse, as people go into denial about how screwed up things get. Then the futile mistake is repeated, and Einstein’s definition of insanity comes into play: doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results.

Ultimately, the right way to approach the enemy is by recognizing that they are no more and o less human than you are, and that interests can be shared even when the connections are not apparent. Despite the complex difference inherent in humanity, the patterns of life and the parts of our souls founded on them are all the same.

Rhinehold-
The issue with religions is not the the critical thought is not there, but that any religions or religious experience are subjective. Its easy for people to talk past each other while being very logical about things.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at August 11, 2006 2:13 AM
Comment #174746

Charles Ross,

From someone who is in Iraq right now, you’re either stupid or insane. You’re trying to tell me that someone who goes after unarmed civilians on an airliner is brave? Most of these “brave” men live in abject poverty, are uneducated, unless you consider bobbing your head while memorizing the Koran and chanting kill all infidels educated, and have been told they get 72 virgins when they die. Most have nothing to live for, so why not take a few heathens with them when they end their own pathetic lives?

All terrorists are cowards. They know they can’t win taking us or police on in a gunfight, so they hide amongst civilians and attack civilians who can’t fight back. If I’m the only man with a gun bullying unarmed people does that make me brave? That is all terrorists do, and they are pathetic cowards for it. Your apologist attitude towards them is disgusting. Also, since you and Paul want to dime out Dr. Politico, do either of you serve? If so, excellent and thank you for your service, if not you might want to recall the old saying about people who live in glass houses.

Posted by: 1LT B at August 11, 2006 2:24 AM
Comment #174747

andy-

“Do libs finally get it? There are people that want us (liberals included) dead. Are we allowed to say we are at war yet and start to get this bull**** over with?”

Great plan…the only part missing is the plan.

Posted by: Kevin23 at August 11, 2006 2:44 AM
Comment #174751

1LT B,
Thank you for your service. Keep you head down and your trigger finger ready. There are many of us behind you all the way. Ignore the petty cowards that thing they can talk their way out of a fight with Islamofacists. In the meantime, God be with you.

Posted by: Charlie at August 11, 2006 3:11 AM
Comment #174753

Stephen

What Clinton actions against Bin Laden? Refusing when the Sudan offered him to us?

Posted by: Keith at August 11, 2006 3:23 AM
Comment #174754

Steven-
I lived 25 years in Israel and I traveled among the communities. The Israelis use the Druze to keep the Muslems(Hamas et al) in line. There are whole villages of arab muslems and christians that support the state.
What would you do if you sat outside in your back yard to have a holiday meal and suddenly there is AK47 fire that misses your children by inches and both your house and fence are shot up? I lived it twice in five years and the only thing that stopped it was the army going in to the village that was built near my home, after I was there 6 years; and doing a door to door search.
I wouldn’t put up with that kind of behaviour in LA or NY so why would I take it in Israel? Because the primeminister of France or the UN said I should.
Because I was out spoken against Oslo do you know that I was picked up (as a ‘usual suspect’) and had to spend the months of Oct. to Dec. in a holding cell in Jerusalem - because I might say or write something that might influnce some one to destroy Oslo? Bull! and what did Oslo or the Gaza withdrawal do - exactly as I warned: More violence agenst Israelis, more weapons to kill Jewish children for being Jewish and living on land that was public - meri land under the Turks.
Let Israel get rid of the problem. (by the way seen the doctored pictures or the staged pictures yet???) People who turn a blind eye to evil and do nothing are those who are just as guilty as the evil-doers.
I learned a lesson from my wife who was raised in communist Poland - You cannot teach someone who won’t listen. You cannot negotiate with someone who is hell-bent to kill you.
K

Posted by: kuzriel at August 11, 2006 3:44 AM
Comment #174763

I don’t care much if we call these terrorists cowards or not. What they truly are is zealous, but in an evil way. They most certainly are not brave. Not any more than someone who commits suicide to escape the pain they see in life can be considered brave.

They truly are terrorists, since their goal is to inflict terror. They do so by targeting the innocent. Its kind of like a guy who gets mugged in New York City, and then goes on a rampage shooting anyone who happens to live in New York City. Its not an attempt to change anything by going after the people who committed the crime—its just a mindless lashing out in anger.

The west is not perfect. Some can say we are not even great. This does not matter. The response to our imperfection should not be the mindless slaughter of innocents. That is terrorism, not insurgency or freedom fighting or any other coddling term. Its terrorism.

1LTB: Cannot thank you enough. I’ve thanked you before, I’ll thank you again, I’ll thank you forever. You certainly understand the situation better than those of us who have not experienced it. And those like Charles who want to blame anyone BUT the terrorists are simply ignorant buffoons calling out from the safety of their keyboards. Some fall into the realm of stupid, but most are simply ignorant.

Posted by: joebagodonuts at August 11, 2006 7:57 AM
Comment #174767

We know that the Brits & Pakistani’s have intel that works.
We also know Chertoff is trying to take credit for the dissruption of the plan.
We also have no idea what the plans actually were, as every official speculated as to what they thought, not the evidence they had, would occur.
The Brits have yet to name Al-Qaeida, nor has Al-Qaeida taken credit for this plan. It appears that it was some local boys that thought this up and were implimenting the plan.
The GOP is backed so far into their corner on a campaign of terror that they have no other option but to jump on the bandwagon.
What really is disconserting is that the ‘trial run’ may have already been done. Chertoff & the conservaive pundits are stating that there would be no trial run, but an actual attack.
It is terrible that this happens, and it shows how little is being done to protect planes. Banning everything on board is not a bad idea, but far to complex in thinking of that from the GOP & Bush.
I do not feel any safer than I did at 9:30AM on Sept 11, when planes were in the air and crashing all over.

Posted by: Joe at August 11, 2006 8:19 AM
Comment #174774

Joe,

I often am at odds with the words of your posts but I have to say….”well stated”

Regards,

Posted by: Tom L at August 11, 2006 8:53 AM
Comment #174781

I’m with Rudy Guiliani. He says that because we have gone on offense rather than defense we have not experienced a major terrorist attack on US soil since 9/11. By offense I surmise that he means overt and covert activity.
The overt is the establishment of a base of operations in the Middle East,i.e. Iraq and Afganistan. (no, we didn’t invade these countries to establish democracy for these people, or secure our oil supply, although these are by-products of our presence and a right and good thing to do for our national security). We now have Iran and Syria surrounded by we and our allies. We can now apply direct threats and follow through on invasion and destruction to those in power. We are also able to apply direct pressure on Pakistan and Saudi Arabia to prevent them from supporting or ignoring terrorist organizations within their borders and in fact helping us root them out. An example of this is Pakistan increasing their military patrols on the Afgan boarder.
The covert is the stuff the NY Times and others have not been able to publish or expose yet. Unfortunately, it seems to me, the left feels that whenever our government doesn’t inform them of sensitive intelligience that somehow there has been a crime committed. I for one don’t want it known to myself or anyone because I want these efforts to succeed and continue to be effective. Along with what may be considered covert in my thinking are the information gathering tools and powers provided by the Patriot act and existing law prior to 9/11.

Posted by: Ed at August 11, 2006 9:12 AM
Comment #174787

andy

Being apologetic was the farthest thing from my mind.

Seeing credit given where none was deserved was the closest.

“It is unpatriotic not to oppose [the president] to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country.”
- Theodore Roosevelt, 26th President of the United States

Posted by: myles at August 11, 2006 9:57 AM
Comment #174788

1LTB Thanks for your service and thanks also for your input. As someone who volunteered to serve his country, making life-and-death decisions daily on the ground in Iraq, while having to endure a constant barage of bloviated criticism from the left at home, you are the brave one. You and all those like you are doing the tough work for all of us so that we have the freedom and security to sit here on our computers and discuss and criticise to hearts content. You and all of our brave men and women are making a difference for all of us. You’ve removed a brutal dictator and freed thousands of people. Sure they have their own civil difficulties to deal with as we do here, but you provided them the possibilities for their future.
You’ve also dislocated a breeding/training ground for young suicidal Islamic Fascists. You and those like you ‘get it’, as all those who came before you ‘got it’. From the American Revolution, to the War of 1812, to the Civil War, to the Spanish/American War, to WWI, WWII, the War in Vietnam, Kuwait/Iraq I, through and including the current engagment, all those who risked their lives and laid them down for the cause of freedom got it.
I wonder what the blowhards on the left would be willing to die for? God be with you.

Posted by: linda at August 11, 2006 10:02 AM
Comment #174794

isn’t it sad the way in which the War sector believes that war will solve their problems. If we only cause enough destruction, or kill enough people, we will then be able to enforce our will. History means nothing. The first world war was to be over in weeks. Instead it lasted 4 years, and carried within it the seeds of the next war. When Hitler invaded Poland, and later Russia, it was to lead to a 1,000 year Reich, a Reich which ended in ashes and countless corpses only 6 years later. It again was a war which carried within it the seeds of the next war, the cold war, which germinated indirect conflicts throughout the world, including VIetnam and Cambodia. We are a foolish race, despite witnessing the degradation of humanity that war brings, we continue to call for war.

I, as a Westerner, come from a culture that is somewhat, if imperfectly informed and indeed formed by Christianity. Although not a very devout or committed Christian, somewhere in my psyche I hold onto in my values much of what Christ called upon us to do. Love my neighbour, do good to those who calumniate me, to offer the other cheek. You see, in my experience of life, when I sit down with another person, no matter how apparently “different” they are to me, once we get talking, treating each other with respect and actively listening to each other, I invariably find that despite our apparent differences, our common humanity vastly outweighs such inconsequential differences. As I proceed through life, I increasingly find that taking a truly Christian position with my fellow man, leads to increasingly rich and respectful relationhips.

When we start calling each other names, for example Islamofacist, or Kike, or Hebe, or towelhead, what we are doing is putting a label on this person. This label says that this person or group, is not like us, they are different and inferior, an untermensch. We deny the common humanity we share with these people. In doing so, we choose to see them as a symbol of our fears, which drives our hatred. And it is in such hatred, that we are capable of such horror.

To all of those people our there cheering on the warmongers, i simply say this. The only people who benefit from war, are the purveyors or armageddom, those cynical people who promote and use war to enrich themselves. The ordinary people are the ones who get to shed blood by direct action in the conflict, and those who are massacred in the middle. To all of those American “Christians” cheering on conflict I can only say, shame on you. You have taken the word of God and Christ and twisted it in such a way that you have bled it of all meaning. And as you believe, the day of reckoning will come, and not in rapture, but in the aftermath of rapture. War stems from fear, fear of our fellow human beings, which expresses itself in hatred. Hatred can never produce solutions, because it is a denial of truth and stems from our basest nature, which is itself a denial of all that is good in humanity.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at August 11, 2006 10:17 AM
Comment #174795

Rhinehold wrote:
“We know why they hate Americans. I’m not sure why you are trying to change the reason… Islamic fascists are on a holy war to destroy all non-islamic socieites and prevent anyone from living life as they think it should be. Everyone should be a muslim. Our ‘decadent’ lifestyle is causing people to stray from the right and proper path of the muslim.”


Hmmmm, holy war, — convert other societies to believe in the “one true God”, non-believers are “decadent” and doomed to hell
Stray from right and proper path
Geez — the Christian right needs to sue these Radical Islamists for Plagerism!!

Interesting how the factions that are shouting and shaking fists at each other are actually more alike than they care to admit!! — Sort of like looking in a mirror, isn’t it?

Posted by: Russ at August 11, 2006 10:27 AM
Comment #174798

Paul
Wonderful post — right on the mark, sadly too many miss that point

We are all one —
I would suggest visiting
http://www.peacepilgrim.com/
She WALKED her Talk — and showed in many ways that peace comes without violence

“This is the way of peace:
Overcome evil with good,
and falsehood with truth,
and hatred with love.”
….Peace Pilgrim

she also pointed out that
The way to peace is thru the individual
There can be no peace among nations if individuals are not at peace with themselves

(No peace between nations if there is no peace within nations, no peace within nations if there is no peace between groups, no peace between groups if there is no peace within groups, no peace within groups if there is no peace between individuals, and there can be no peace between individuals if there is no peace within individuals — makes it seem kind of hopeless, but she decided to attack it one person at a time, and she touched many people during her journey)

Posted by: Russ at August 11, 2006 10:36 AM
Comment #174805

Stephen,

You are correct in your assessment of the tactics the insurgents use, but even within the scope of an insurgency, these scumbags go beyond the pale. Its one thing to attack Soldiers, they tend to be armed and can always shoot back at you. The terrorists figured out that attacking us was a losing proposition, so what do they do now? They attack civilians, blowing up markets and mosques with no other goal but massive civilian casualties. Who they target makes them cowards even more so than their tactics.


Russ,

You are so far off base its not even funny. How many of these conservative Christians are out there trying to smuggle bombs onto airplanes? Or blowing themselves up in the middle of crowded markets? You may have a point on that last post of yours, though. I bet if we showed this to the terrorist, they might die laughing. You seriously think that this woman did anything productive? Get real, pull your head out of the clouds of whatever it is you’re smoking, and return to the world of the real.

Posted by: 1LT B at August 11, 2006 11:00 AM
Comment #174811

1LT B,

“You may have a point on that last post of yours, though. I bet if we showed this to the terrorist, they might die laughing. You seriously think that this woman did anything productive?”

Yes I do.

If people are talking it means they aren’t shooting at each other.

This lady may have truly reached only a few people in her travels, but you at least have to admire her effort.
If nothing else this woman did her small part to put you out of business, and did it in a way that didn’t bring shame to her cause.
She showed a real commitment in her effort that was/is rare in America, only to be criticized for it 2 decades later.

I hope you feel better now.

Posted by: Rocky at August 11, 2006 11:18 AM
Comment #174817

Paul in Euroland:

Be ashamed of war? It is terrible…but…wait! What’s that sound? It’s Ahmadinejad and the Ayatollahs chanting “DEATH TO AMERICA”, and look over there! Egyptians and Palestinians celebrating 9/11. On TV, OBL is calling for Muslims to destroy American citizens for Islam. All of this is going on and you tell us to be ashamed of war. These radicals are trying to destroy our way of life. They said it themselves that there can only be peace if Americans and Israelis convert.

Posted by: stubborn conservative at August 11, 2006 11:56 AM
Comment #174819

Ed-
It depends on what you speak of in terms of offense. We obviously shouldn’t wait around behind walls and inspections for them to attack us. We should take the fight to them, rooting them out.

But that’s largely a job for our more agile forces. When they mistake of gathering in one place, I have no objection to bombing and blasting them to hell, but frankly I think they’re smart enough not to take that approach against us. They don’t seem to have a lack of volunteers now when it comes to trying to blow up airliners or destroying trains full of people. Military methods are not very good at rooting out the enemy when they either live amongst our allies or when they infiltrate our territory.

A false sense of security will only get more people killed, hand al-Qaeda more victories, and make us look like a bunch of puffed up fools.

As far as our international relations go, Your picture of things is fairly cloudy. We’re having a difficult time keeping our allies in the region in line, as the situation in Lebanon ignites anti-Israeli sentiments and catalyzes pan-Arab sentiments in the region.

As for following through on invasions, let me ask: you, and what Army? In case you haven’t noticed, our readiness is in the toilet thanks to Bush’s extended campaign, and the conditions in Iraq. If you want those wars, you’ve got to convince a nation of skeptics why they should bother supporting them, and then you have to politically survive the after-effects of initiating a draft, because that’s the only way you’re going to get the fresh soldiers you need to win those wars.

As far as national secrets go, when the Bush administration stops usings secrecy to cover for illegal actions against its own citizens, then we’ll talk. I support secrecy on most matters, but to expect people to remain silent on the violation of American’s right is too much. If we’re not fighting to keep those rights, why should we ask soldiers to die defending them?

The President has been firmly told by a court stacked with his own appointees that there are limits to his power. When is it going to sink in on the right that giving more power to the executive does not necessary protect us better? The means we defend ourselves with must be adapted to the kind of society we are. Otherwise we will simply mutate into a sad parody of what we once were.

Linda-
You seem to be taking the opportunity to both thank 1LT B and project your view of what this war is about, so let me disentangle one from the other.

I’m not fully informed as to the LT’s station and duties, so I will generalize in terms of the soldier in active combat.

That soldier is faced with life and death situations everyday. People aren’t built to take that constantly. Refreshing them is a necessity. This administration has done poorly in that regard. In order to make up for a lackluster commitment of forces in the first place, the President has extended stays in a Iraq, and set soldiers back multiple times. You could argue from the local perspective of the situation that this was necessary, but in global terms, the situation got that way because the forces were deliberately sent in light. It was expected that aid from Iraqi exiles would take over, so American soldiers would not have to occupy. There were no plans made to have other forces on standby in case they were needed. Rumsfeld and the others thought this was defeatist thinking.

The Right has been fairly oblivious on this matter, and have done a great disservice to the soldiers by taking such an approach. They have been quick to exhort people to give moral support to the soldiers, but in terms of material support they have failed consistently, since any answering of such a call would constitute an implicit critique of Bush’s policy. This is how you lose wars: you support morally what you are unwilling to support materially.

It’s like running your car without keeping your oil, transmission fluid, coolant/antifreeze, and other important elements refreshed and resupplied: eventually, the machine breaks down.

Removing the brutal dicator, I have no problem with. I was glad to see him go. I just wish we could have made him stay put in one place so we could have caught him early on. Unfortunately, the paucity of our forces there kept us from being that versatile.

As for the breeding ground for “young, suicidal Islamic Fascists”? We may just end up having created one, where none existed before. The Blowhards on the right have been more busy defending this war, than keeping the mission in sight. They’ve rationalized one error after another about how things have been done, and as a result have tolerated mistakes that I could personally say I would tolerate from no-one.

Those mistakes have had their consequences, and those consequences will be part of what determines whether all those people freed from Saddam will keep whatever freedom they have. Ultimately, that has been the left’s central problem with Bush’s plan. If we continue along Bush’s line long enough, we have feared, we will have set ourselves back, and the Iraqis right with us.

Many of those who died in Iraq were of the left. It’s silly to suggest that we wouldn’t die for our country. But like a Democrat once said, how do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake? Unless we can own up to the errors of this war, we cannot freely and openly repair the damage. Even now, events may have carried us past that point. I still try and persuade people to my points in the hopes that such a change of heart amongst Americans will not take place to late for us and the Iraqis. I know one thing though: We cannot ask more people to die, unless they know they fight for the safety of our country, and not merely to cover the ass of a politician.

1LT B-
Remember Eric Rudolph. Remember people like McVeigh. Remember the Serbs. Remember the IRA. The reason we are not so violent, is that we are spared the kind of conditions and history that would cause us to be more willing to shed blood for our causes.

I believe most of the mass killings are across sectarian lines. When you can visualize your enemy as heretical subhumans who deserve to die anyways, the point of whether it’s cowardly to kill and maim unarmed men, women, and children becomes beside the point. We might still see it as such, but that’s mainly because we’re taught to see things in a rather ecumenical light born of our history and our principles. We were simply taught better.

Many of those shedding the blood here are looking to provoke further unrest and civil antipathy, to destroy what they might see as a colonial collaborator’s government. As such, reminding the people again and again how ineffectual that government is by lethal means is open to them.

That is the unfortunate moral point of view these people have. You they’re fighting. The Iraqi’s they’re punishing and goading into civil war.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at August 11, 2006 12:00 PM
Comment #174821

LT B

How many of these conservative Christians are out there trying to smuggle bombs onto airplanes? Or blowing themselves up in the middle of crowded markets?
Ever heard of Timothy McVeigh? Ever heard of Jonestown? Ever heard of the Atlanta bomber?

Posted by: Elliott at August 11, 2006 12:09 PM
Comment #174820

Rhinehold:

Islamic fascists are on a holy war to destroy all non-islamic socieites

Oh, Rhinehold…so soon and quick to repeat Bush’s use of “Islamic fascists”…who are nothing of the sort…please look up the definition of “fascism” in your closest dictionary…heck, even Wikipedia’s got this one right!

Posted by: Lynne at August 11, 2006 12:09 PM
Comment #174822

Any one who equates the US invasion of Iraq with the war on terror has been drinking the he kool aid. I was all for going after OBS. Did not buy the administration of threat from Iraq.

Posted by: Earl at August 11, 2006 12:12 PM
Comment #174825

Give them jobs and meaningful lives and they won’t go for radical ideology!! What planet do you live on??!!
In 1967 a zone was created in East Jerusalem and Gaza where manufactures, including some well known names, could set up shop. Nearly 90% of their workers were “Palestinian”. The rules were simple: all material for the factories were duty free and no duty was placed on their export. Salaries were mandated to be the same as for an Israeli worker. There were no hassles on workers. Until Arafat came. He was like a union boss. He took payment for your right to work, he told you when to strike and when to work. If you did not comply you were ruffed up, burnt out or died. (Were you shown that?)
To this day “palestinians” are held hostage to the mafia tactics left over from Arafat’s Biker days. His brother controls the only construction material company and takes a tax from his workers.
During the “1st intafada” Arafat ordered no work for the zones - busness died, and cities were trashed. Where did the UN monies go (monies that US taxpayers provided)? Into his bank accounts - or to buy a bowling ally in NYC.
Hamas is no better. Israel withdrew from Gaza leaving millions of dollars of agricultural equipment that could be used to build the economy of Gaza. They could grow most of the specialty food and enter the flower market of Europe. Where is that equipment today - first vandeled then the whole inferstructure destroyed.
Poverty - lack of meaninful work!! don’t make me laugh. Hamas and the old UNRA system controls the population by “charity”. They reward monthly rations that you pay for if the reciever is “good”. I know all their scams.
Until the “West” comes to grip with the reality of what is going on in the middle east there will never be a solution. India has some of the same problems yet they prosper why not the Arabs. Did you know that no Arab country has a sustainable Agraculture, no factories that make and export goods? Goods and services are brought from other countries from their one industry - oil. You want the truth of Iraq? Yes it is oil. not your “Bush” or “US” grab but who gets to control the money. What do you think the war between Iran and Iraq was about? Control of the oil fields.
Like I said I lived there, I studied there and I worked with Arab, Druze, Christian, Samaritans and Jews.
I dispise armchair Generals and reporters who fly in for a “few days” and act like they “know” the truth.
K

Posted by: kuzriel at August 11, 2006 12:19 PM
Comment #174827

Lynne -

ABSOLUTELY! Islam by definition is not fascist. Now, Cheney having private energy meeting & allow the intdustry to determine the governments approach to enery is facist. The idea that Cheney was CEO of haliburton who gained no-bid contracts from the goverment in war he pushed - that is facism.

Posted by: tony at August 11, 2006 12:21 PM
Comment #174838

Stephen and Elliott-

I don’t remember McVeigh being a Christian. An anarchist maybe, but a Christian?

Posted by: George in SC at August 11, 2006 12:59 PM
Comment #174839

Stephen,

Yes, in point of fact I do remember Eric Rudolph and the others, but you know as well as I do that this is a false comparison. These are blatant exceptions, not the rule. Everyone keeps saying that Islam is a religion of peace and that the terrorists are not real Muslims, why not give Christianity the same credit? In any given day in Iraq we have several attacks from suicide bombers on innocent Iraqi civilians, and I’ll bet money that more Iraqis are dying in an average week out here than died in the OKC bombing. If Christians are as bad as you say, why are you still alive? Shouldn’t they have killed you by now?

Rocky,

This lady walked 25,000 miles for peace. Whoopdy do. Why not cite Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr, you know, people who actually accomplished something meaningful and tangible with non-violence. I’m sure her motives were good, but walking along for years doesn’t do a thing aside from make someone feel good in the mistaken belief that what they’re doing means something. As far as putting me out of business, if you refer to the U.S. Army or military, there are 2 possible ways we’ll go out of business. One is the Second Coming of Christ. The other is our total defeat and annihilation as a nation state. If you really believe that anything else (aside from the End Times of whatever religion you practice if you’re not a Christian) will put the military out of business, then you’re either dangerously naive or willfully ignorant.

Posted by: 1LT B at August 11, 2006 1:00 PM
Comment #174843

1LT B,

“As far as putting me out of business, if you refer to the U.S. Army or military, there are 2 possible ways we’ll go out of business. One is the Second Coming of Christ. The other is our total defeat and annihilation as a nation state. If you really believe that anything else (aside from the End Times of whatever religion you practice if you’re not a Christian) will put the military out of business, then you’re either dangerously naive or willfully ignorant.”

I am neither, and my thanks for your service doesn’t excuse your arrogance.

There is a third way, and that is when we all realize how fruitless an endeavor killing each other has become. While I am not so naive as to think that time will come tomorrow, I can still hope that it will come soon, and at that, not soon enough.

As far as the effort of the “Peace Pilgrim” is concerned, if she only persuaded a handful, and they persuaded a handful, then I believe she would be admired by such as Gandhi if only for her effort.

You may never understand that while people are talking, and that is what it appears her aim was, they aren’t shooting each other.

Posted by: Rocky at August 11, 2006 1:17 PM
Comment #174848

you have little sense of history 1LT B. The US military was, for practical purposes, put our of business by Vietnam. It emerged from that conflict dispirited and demoralised, a state that was highlighted in 1979 during the catastrophic rescue mission for the hostages in Tehran. This was following the raid on Entebbe in 1976 when the Israelis had pulled off a rescue in Uganda against airplane hijackers, the German GSG9 in Mogadishu in 1977 attack against terrorist hijackers, both of which were carried out with textbook precision and went like clockwork.. The American attempt looked amateurish by comparison. It may be of course that they were just visited by bad luck, but for many people it was a symptom of an armed force that was greatly demoralised by Vietnam. The Vietnam experience led to the emergence of the Powell doctrine, made famous the so-called Powell Doctrine, also known as the Powell Doctrine of Overwhelming Force, as part of the run up to the 1990-1991 Gulf War.

The Powell Doctrine simply asserts that when a nation is engaging in war, every resource and tool should be used to achieve overwhelming force against the enemy. This may oppose the principle of proportionality, but there are grounds to suppose that principles of Just War may not be violated.

The Powell Doctrine is perhaps best illustrated by his quote (as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during the 1991 Persian Gulf War) about the Iraqi Army:

“First we’re going to cut it off, then we’re going to kill it.”

After victory, the military should leave the field of engagement, rather than staying around as peacekeepers. (See International humanitarian law concerning military occupation.)

It has been argued that the Doctrine follows from principles laid out by Caspar Weinberger, Ronald Reagan’s Secretary of Defense and, as such, Powell’s former boss:

* Is a vital US interest at stake?
* Will we commit sufficient resources to win?
* Are the objectives clearly defined?
* Will we sustain the commitment?
* Is there reasonable expectation that the public and Congress will support the operation?
* Have we exhausted our other options?
* Do we have a clear exit strategy?

The questions posed by the Powell Doctrine:

* Is a vital national security interest threatened?
* Do we have a clear attainable objective?
* Have the risks and costs been fully and frankly analyzed?
* Have all other non-violent policy means been fully exhausted?
* Is there a plausible exit strategy to avoid endless entanglement?
* Have the consequences of our action been fully considered?
* Is the action supported by the American people?
* Do we have genuine broad international support?
The above with thanks to Wikipedia. It seems that that lesson was not long learned before it was forgotten. Curiously, it was part of the same rethinking following Vietnam, that led to the present professionalism in the US armed forces arising from the volunteer forces. But those forces are designed for a very rough purpose. As one US officer said in a TV interview, we kill people and break things up. That is the mission for the military, which is appropriate for a conventional military, facing a conventional military. But of course, as a 1st LT, presumably you know all of this already.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at August 11, 2006 1:39 PM
Comment #174857

Rocky,

I said that you were either naive or willfully ignorant about how the military would be dismantled. You responded by saying that we’ll somehow grow out of killing each other. I’d say that all of human history argues against this happening. Your very argument proved my point. This is the real world, not Star Trek.

Paul,

Could you please explain to me how an Army that in 1991 smashed an army with 8 years of battle experience in the quickest most decisive military victory since WWII? The military was betrayed by ignorant politicians in Vietnam who ran the war out of D.C. and ruined any chance for victory. Comparisons to Vietnam and the current war are good in one respect. Traitors then gave comfort, along with aid in the form of ruining the war effort domestically. The North Vietnamese recognized that they couldn’t win on the field of battle, so they relied on our “peace-loving patriots” to give victory to them instead. The terrorists hope to do the same. I can only hope that if they succeed, its the liberals they visit for “attitude adjustment” first.

Posted by: 1LT B at August 11, 2006 2:21 PM
Comment #174862

How’s this one Lynne?


fascism: “A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.” Sound familiar? Let’s see….Iran…Syria….Iraq under Saddam Hussein…The Taliban….and on and on. Fascism is what these terrorists who were trying to blow up the planes yesterday ultimately want for every country. Total Islamic domination, in other words, a theocracy.

Nice try.

Posted by: Libertarian3 at August 11, 2006 2:37 PM
Comment #174866

1LT B-

The N. Vietnamese realized that all they had to do was survive to win…just like the situation today. It is NOT our country, it is theirs. It had nothing to do with what hippies were singing about at music festivals back home. Vietnam was doomed from the start because we had our hands tied politically in where and what we could bomb, and our only real tangable incentive to being there was profits for military suppliers…and generals were habitually lying about the progress of the war to keep those interests happy.

In 1991, we kicked ass, but failed to get Saddam. I grant you it seemed like a great victory, but had we left after toppling Saddam this time around we would have seemed to have a similar victory as in 1991. Trying to occupy is a whole different ballgame.

I guess I am just really tired of the whole analogies to past wars that are taken out of context and presented to support some wild unrelated point. If I’m to take your last post seriously (I usually respect your writing) than show me SOME eveidence of ANY opposing military commander considering or drawing up a plan that even takes into account predicted actions of peace lovers - let alone “relying” on them to do anything. I find the notion of a bunch of tunnel rats and cave dwellers sitting around a TV watching CNN, trying to strategize around the next peace rally. I think its safer to assume they just try to survive until the innevitable happens…the Americans go back to America…where they live.

Posted by: Kevin23 at August 11, 2006 2:48 PM
Comment #174867

1LT,
Why did the USSR lose to the Mujahideen in Afghanistan? There were no peaceniks, no peace-loving media, no traitors at home. Like the US, the USSR sent its troops to invade another country with the purpose of forcing a government upon the populace. Like the US, the USSR possessed an overwhelming technological advantage, numerical superiority, and more.

Yet the USSR lost. Think about it…

Posted by: phx8 at August 11, 2006 2:49 PM
Comment #174869
Fascism is what these terrorists who were trying to blow up the planes yesterday ultimately want for every country.

That’s the party line that allows us to be in a neverending war. They hate us because were free is what our president keeps telling us. Is that true? It doesn’t seem like a very effective jihadist recruiting pitch.

Posted by: Schwamp at August 11, 2006 3:01 PM
Comment #174870

Libertarian3,
No, the term “islamic fascism” does not apply to Syria. Syria is a secular state with a Baathist party. Syria might be fascist in the traditional sense, but not in a religious sense.

Same applies to Iraq. It was a fascist state under Saddam Hussein, but lacked a dominating Islamic element; in fact, the secular Iraqi Baathists persecuted the Shia fundamentalists from SCIRI and Dawa very hard. Those groups turned to Iran for protection. Today there is a tremendous tension between those Iranian backed parties and al-Sadr, who is a virulently anti-American nationalist, along with his Mahdi Army. About the only thing they all agree upon is a hatred of Israel. But if you insist upon applying a rather stupid term such as “islamic fascist” to Iran, you had best prepare to call the new Iraqi government the same.

Your tax dollars at work.

Networks such as Al Qaida and the various Pakistani terrorist groups are not governments in any sense. Calling them “islamic fascists” is a little silly. But Bush can always be counted on to appeal to the lowest common denominator.

Posted by: phx8 at August 11, 2006 3:09 PM
Comment #174871

1LT B,

“I said that you were either naive or willfully ignorant about how the military would be dismantled.”

That may have been what you meant, but this is what you wrote;

“If you really believe that anything else (aside from the End Times of whatever religion you practice if you’re not a Christian) will put the military out of business, then you’re either dangerously naive or willfully ignorant.”

You and those like you that look down your collective noses at people that would rather America seek a way to make sure that peace breaks out, don’t seem to understand that the only entity that wins in wartime is the Military Industrial Complex, and they have the greatest stake in making sure the war goes on forever.

Your characterization of the Vietnam War is straight out of right wing punditryland.

We lost in Vietnam because McNamara, like Rumsfeld, had his head up his ass. He wasn’t willing to commit to total victory, just as Rumsfeld.
That and our magnificent, drafted military was more interested in doing heroin, than fighting the Viet Cong.
The leadership as well was more interested in the appearance of winning than actually winning.

Gee, doesn’t that sound familiar?

So, here we are again, the right believes we can exterminate 100 million Islamo-facists, and meanwhile the American leadership is giving the American people a cosmic hand job, again.

Posted by: Rocky at August 11, 2006 3:10 PM
Comment #174873

Schwamp-

It really gets me too how the president doesn’t even try to connect the dots anymore. Causation is an outdated concept I guess. When someone can say “Terrorists target Americans because we live in freedom” AND gets applause for it, it tells me that no one is really listening…and definately not thinking about it. It is absolutely ludicrous. As if a terrorist group is actually going to spend lives, time, money, and effort fighting nothing more than an abstract concept that has nothing to do with their daily struggles.

Stupid people love this kind of nonsense though. And it wins election in places like Kansas and Idaho…places where there is a constant threat of losing basic freedoms via terror attacks. Oh wait.

Posted by: Kevin23 at August 11, 2006 3:15 PM
Comment #174874

“Fascism is a radical totalitarian political philosophy that combines elements of corporatism, authoritarianism, extreme nationalism, militarism, anti-anarchism, anti-communism and anti-liberalism.
The original fascist (fascismo) movement ruled Italy from 1922 to 1943 under the leadership of Benito Mussolini. In time, the generic term fascism came to cover a class of authoritarian political ideologies, parties, and political systems, most notably Nazi Germany under Adolf Hitler but also Hungary’s Arrow Cross Party, Romania’s Iron Guard, Spain’s Falange and the French political movements led by former socialists Marcel Déat and Jacques Doriot and others.”

One key element in fascism is the focus of the governing body on leveraging and gaining corporate/business interests. Terrorism is directly aimed at interrupting financial markets and destroying financial infrastructure. Kind of the exact opposite of fascism. It sounds nasty, and it can be - but it has no place for terrorism.

Posted by: tony at August 11, 2006 3:24 PM
Comment #174875

Kuzriel
“What planet do you live on??!!”
To quote that little girl from Eraser: Earth. Welcome!

I know you think I’m horribly naive, but look at the strategies of your terrorists. They don’t rebuild or preserve the economies. If they made their people independent of their help, what need would there be for them?

There are people who want to make this situation worse. The real question is, why do we want to help them by letting that happen? Ironically enough, the lesson to be drawn is that you must fight for peace, because there are many who would rather keep the wars going that elevate their status. That’s the cold hard truth of it. By giving in to the illusion that there is a military solution, especially when it’s one creating this much collateral damage, you’re only helping these people continue the blind drive towards death and destruction. Wars are not known for improving the conditions in the war zone.

1LT B-
Blatant exceptions? Why? Why are they exceptions when we use to be just as bad as them in using our religion as a bludgeon to bash others with? What has changed is that we ultimately got sick of fighting over certain differences. Bit by bit, we drew back from fights over religion, fights over nationalism, fights over territorial conquest and whatnot. America, with its immigrants from all these conflicts filled up with people who learned these lessons the hard way.

We learned that its not worth killing people to push our religion or our political beliefs on another.

Unfortunately, the Middle East learned a different lesson. It learned a lesson of colonialism, of foreign interests manipulating their world, their politics, and even surpressing their religion. It’s political life in the last century was dominated in many cases by corrupt dictators that Western powers played a hand in installing.

Where different circumstances reined, Christians have not been so peaceful. The Balkans are a perfect example of this. Look at the cold war between the Turks and the Greeks. Look at the Bosnian war, with Orthodox Serbs committing mass atrocities upon the Muslim Bosnians, and then later the Muslim Albanians of Kosovo.

Look at the role the Christian Phalangists played in the Lebanese civil war. Look at the Sudanese Civil War. Look at the tensions in the Phillipines between Christians and Muslims.

The truth be told, our track record of being more peaceful is comparatively recent and is still somewhat spotty. If our policy becomes guided enough by those seeking to hasten the coming of Christ, we could easily find that not being true at all.

I don’t deny that there is a disproportionate amount of violence coming from the Middle East, but I don’t think it’s a function of a defect in the religion. I think it’s a cultural problem, a post-colonial problem in essence, combined with a resource problem.

At the end of the book Collapse, Jared Diamond compares a list of places where the ecosystems are in steep decline and those where fierce conflicts burn. You’re sitting in one of those places, 1LT B.

We have the benefit of plentiful resources and good employment to keep us from coveting what others have, to keep us from descending into violence, like the Rwandans did. If we had gone in with a more solid presence and restarted the engines of economy for Iraq, we might have had an easier time of things.

On the subject of Vietnam? I keep on making the point here that you cannot win a war simply on moral support back home. Vietnam was lost strategically. The uproar and loss of faith in the mission back home ultimately came of that, that and the politicians attempts to cover their asses and keep the war going without honestly engaging the public and redeeming the policies.

The convenient part of the “backstab” theory is that you can blame it on somebody, and make scapegoats of the protestors. Nevermind that they were Johnny-come-latelies to the whole issue. By the time the protests start in earnest, policy in Indochina had long been problematic, and the seeds of defeat have long been sown by the foolish policies of the President, whom I’m sorry to say was a Democrat.

The problem comes in the aftermath, where the right becomes obsessed with this “backstab” theory and starts to believe that the problems with the War had more to do with moral support, rather than the failure to secure a sympathetic government for the South Vietnamese, the failure to get the South Vietnamese to keep their country intact, and ultimately to make them care about defending themselves.

We could have unleashed the armies and bankrupted ourselves fighting it, we could have had full unity back home, and everybody committed, but if the South Vietnamese weren’t going to stand up for their land and their own selves, we could never win.

It is a hopeful sign that Iraqis are not so passive in the face of that. That said, they are starting from a serious disadvantage because of a preventable mistake on our part. Unfortunately, it has been politically incorrect for the right to acknowledge such mistakes, because the President insisted that he got the war right. Never has loyalty to one man cost this nation so much.

I love peace, but I am under no illusion that it can be cheaply bought. Too many of your leaders in the White House are better at getting us into wars than they are at fighting them and winning them. They think they can put things right back together the way they want them. Unfortunately, they don’t stop to consider what happens when one plays games with pieces that live, breath, and think.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at August 11, 2006 3:39 PM
Comment #174878

1LT B, Terence Mc Swiney, the Lord Mayor of Cork in Ireland, who went on hunger strike against the British during the Irish war of Independence said that ” it is not those who can inflict the most, but those who can endure the most, who will win”. Ireland, a country without an army at all, only a relatively rag tag collection of guerrillasm took on and beat the British Empire to a standstill.

I have studied the Vietnam war in a little detail. I have visited Vietnam in Feb of this year. I went along to the usual tourist haunts, including the American War Crimes Museum (!). I went to the Cu Chi tunnels and I spoke with Vitnamese and was guided by them. Whereas they may not have had the capacity to defeat the US long term militarily, they also could not be defeated. What I saw in Vietnam was a very clever and a very resourceful people. I didn’t see any gooks! They had very effective counters to the vast technological advantages of the US. In short, this was a very highly motivated and resourceful people who could fight very effectively despite the apparent military disadvantages.

As for Gulf War 1, that happened after the transformation of the US forces. You will recall that 1991 was 12 years after 1979! a major part of the lessons learned from Vietnam was the fornmation of the so called Powell doctrine. Finally, if military supremacy or at least superiority were critical in winning wars, the US would have pacified Iraq long since, and the Israeli would have silenced all resistance to their hegemony in their region many years ago. Remember, its not those who can inflict the most……….

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at August 11, 2006 3:45 PM
Comment #174880

Libertarian 3:

What government is run by the terrorists???

None.

What corporations assist the terrorists in running their government?

None.

You’re trying hard to make the definition of fascism fit the fundamentalist Islamic terrorists…but it truly doesn’t.

Try again.

Posted by: Lynne at August 11, 2006 3:53 PM
Comment #174882

Haven’t seen this anywhere else, so I will mention my guess that this plot was desired to be carried out on 9/11, 2006. The 5yr Anniversary, to the day.

What could be more ‘In Our Face’, or could have been interpreted as showing more competency, bloody-elegance and power than:
- they pick the day (Anniversary & heightend security day)
- they pick the method (highjacking planes —which have been the focus of our security measures) … but more this time
- they use Martyrs … but more this time

I think they were very hopeful they could get through security with this new approach, and had left enough time for a dry run.

I suspect, on 9/11, 2006.

Posted by: Brian at August 11, 2006 4:01 PM
Comment #174918

I want values man! I want to be safe from what really matters: gay marriage…we don’t need no stinkin’ stem celled gay married men, just cheap Middle Eastern gays..gas..for our big SUVs.

Forgetting about the deceit behind Bush’s war of choice, what grade
should his prosecution of this war be given? An A or a B, or perhaps a
D or an F? Before you answer, recall Bush’s many illustrious victories:
We killed Saddam’s boys and things got better…err…we captured
Saddam and things got better…err…we got the Iraqis to make an
interim government and things got better…err we had the Iraqis hold a
free election and things got better…err…we have an Iraqi “unity”
government taking over Iraq and things are getting
better…really…every day in every way things are getting better
(Hannity), and this is why soon this year 20,000 Iraqis will be dead
and we’re moving more troops into Baghdad, where the people are
practicing their democratic right of public demonstrations against the
Great Satan, the USA.

On domestice policy, for a bit of juxtaposition, what grade would you
give Bush for Katrina? If all roads were flooded, where were the
massive air drops of relief supplies by the US Air Force? The Mexican
Army, driving through Texas, got through with relief supplies. And
where was Bush for those first few days after Katrina? On vacation,
attending political events?

Now, nearly five years after 9/11, what grade would you give Bush for
making our ports safer? Our borders tighter? Wow dude…liquid
boom-booms, who’d thought? Chertov of Homeland Security perhaps? Give him an A!

Back to Iraq: Is the blood and treasure being spent in Iraq helping or
hindering the war on terror? Suppose we pull out now, what then will
happen to our interests in the Middle East? There’s a good chance Iran
will become the big, bad player, and I don’t believe this is good for
us. Okay then, let’s “stay the course” for the next 10 - 12 years as
Sec. Rumsfeld has stated is the lifetime of an insurgency. We’ll raise
a new generation of American hating Muslims, continue to get tens of
thousands of Iraqi civilians killed, continue to tax our troops tour
after tour until we have ourselves a new generation of maimed and
burned-out ‘Vietnam’ veterans. Given the long history of the Middle East,
or even only the relatively recent failure of the British to control
the region not too many decades ago, the current situation should have
been forseen by any non-homophobic, non-creationist, non-anti-stem cell
retard with a billionth of a brain. (What is this saying about, about
50% of Americans?)

Oh, by the way, about Bush’s fortitude as some Republicants are touting, as of 17:00 hours east coast time, the US is now signing aboard a resolution that the French, not
the Israelis, support. Vive le Fortitude…err vive la France!

Alex Alaniz, Ph.D.
Author of Beyond Future Shock

Posted by: Alex Alaniz at August 11, 2006 6:12 PM
Comment #174922

Alex

Does Ph.D. stand for piled higher and deeper?

Posted by: tomh at August 11, 2006 6:25 PM
Comment #174934

Alex, I dunno, maybe your book is great, but, good grief, that pile of rhetoric doesn’t add anything to the debate. I say this as someone who agrees with much of what you write, in intent, at least.

Posted by: Trent at August 11, 2006 6:51 PM
Comment #174935

Alex, vivre la belle France, vivre la liberte!

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at August 11, 2006 6:53 PM
Comment #174937

By the way doc, cool resume!

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at August 11, 2006 6:57 PM
Comment #175161

Kevin23

I happen to work for DHS.. So what part of what me and my fellow agents do is a joke? because Im not laughing.

Jeff

P.S. Sorry I know you said that like two days ago, but I’ve been a little busy the last few days.

Posted by: Jeff at August 12, 2006 6:09 PM
Comment #175174

Oops … now we find out that maybe the attack wasn’t so imminent AND that it was the U.S. that wanted the Brits to move in prematurely. The Brits claim the plotters hadn’t bought airline tickets yet and most of them didn’t have passports. So why Bush’s mad rush to arrest and publicize? Does anyone else smell a stink here?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14320452/

Do you feel safer getting on a plane with just your passport and wallet even though you’re still sitting on top of a pile of un-xrayed luggage? What is preventing someone from checking a load of explosives and detonating it with a device imbedded in a shirt button or eyeglasses? All of this hysteria is beyond dumb.

If Osama wanted to pull off another 9-11, he could’ve done it by now and easily. Homeland Security is a joke, staffed by cronies, run by buffoons. If Bush meant business, he would’ve siphoned money into real protections here at home instead of squandering everything in Iraq.

The irony is that another big 9-11 event, instead of illustrating the Katrina-esque impotence of this administration, will make all the sheep bump up Bush’s poll numbers.

Have fun in the 4-hour long airport security lines, folks, but don’t delude yourselves that you’re safe.

Posted by: pianofan at August 12, 2006 7:29 PM
Comment #175178

I agree with Steven Daugherty - the pool that staffs the ranks of suicide bombers, whether Irish, Arabic, Afghani or Pakistani, are young, unemployed men without hope, without anything to lose, with endless time on their hands. I often wonder if you gave every one of these guys a decent full-time job if the raving fundie Mullahs would find themselves preaching to empty mosques.

Posted by: pianofan at August 12, 2006 7:42 PM
Comment #175181

Pianofan

umm where do you get your info from?
100% Passenger luggage is screened in one format or another most of it using a combination of X-ray and explosive trace technology!

while cargo leaves something to be desired that still falls on the airlines. (personally i find that to be an error, we should have control of that too).

Posted by: Jeff at August 12, 2006 8:19 PM
Comment #175186

tomh,

Does Ph.D. stand for piled higher and deeper?
Nice job of critiquing the messenger instead of the message, dude. Last time I read the top of this column, it was supposed to be the other way around. Karl Rove would be so proud…

Posted by: ElliottBay at August 12, 2006 9:01 PM
Comment #175206

Pianofan, get your facts straight. The Irish terrorists never engaged in suicide bombings. And for the record, there’s less unemployment here than in the US of A! And in any case, the Irish terrorists guns have fallen silent. Wanna know why? Because they were drawn into a dialogue which led to a treaty between Britain and Ireland, and all of the political parties in Ireland, north and south signed up to it. Further, referenda in both parts of Ireland won the overwhelming support of the people of Ireland, north and south. We will forever be in the debt of Bill Clinton for his good offices in helping to bring this agreement about. Of course, as usual success has many fathers, but Clinton nevertheless did lift things several times when they were going astray. The point I’m making for all those trigger happy folks out there, is that this settlement of a decades old problem (70 years) was brought about by jaw jaw, not war war. Violence only begets violence.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at August 12, 2006 10:44 PM
Comment #175219

Jeff-

Your leadership (the very top) is the joke…obviously. Your mandate is noble. We ALL want security. Just not half-assed security. Read the post and figure it out…no one is calling the workers in the field bad. I am saying it not enough, incomplete and badly designed.

As a DHS employee, how do you see it? Anything substantive you can tell us that can help with the optimism?

Posted by: Kevin23 at August 13, 2006 12:16 AM
Comment #175272

Today, Muslims in the United Kingdom told England that they must give the Muslims what they want and then they will not be a target. Imagine that, supposedly moderate muslims telling England to bow to the will of the terrorists if they do not wish to die.

And in the US muslims yesterday told us that we must adopt the political correctness of Europe and give radicalized muslims special treatment. That the press should no longer tell us the race or the religion of terrorists. Get it, America Muslims in support of terrorists telling us that a free press does not apply to muslims or muslim terrorists. That we must never indicate that our enemy is made up of Muslims who is Islamic. This is the type of pro terrorist political correctness that is causing Europe to surrender itself to the invading Muslim horde.

Posted by: Steve at August 13, 2006 5:23 AM
Comment #175276

Steve, you are quite wrong about European surrender to the “invading Muslim horde”. There is a rapidly developing debate throughout Europe about this influx of people who do not seem to integrate. It is happening mostly at the grassroots level for now, but it will be made clear to the political elites that it is not sustainable, before long. Already in many northern european countries, efforts are being made, albeit somewhat naive, to condition would be immigrants to European norms, eg, videos with gays kissing and such like. I think that’s kind of pathetic. But you must be aware of the huge impact Pym Fotuyn had in Holland, before he was assassinated. There is a huge rumbling throughout Europe which I believe will make itself head before long by our political elites. No society can allow immigration which does not respect the host community. I know that if I’m invited into your home, that courtesy demands I do not act in a manner which is not threatening or offensive to my host. When in Rome, do as Rome does.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at August 13, 2006 7:17 AM
Comment #175277

Apologies for the double negative in my second last line, which should have read “……courtesy demands I do not act in a manner which is threatening…….”

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at August 13, 2006 7:19 AM
Comment #175343

Paul-
I think it’s of great concern how Europe responds to the issues of non-assimilation. Will you folks call for a more relaxed attitude towards assimilation, with less focus on linguistic, religious, and other restriction, or will it become a reinforcement of the kind of problems that discouraged assimilation in the first place?

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at August 13, 2006 7:41 PM
Comment #175347

Personally there are a few things that I have questioned, but that is rare. A lot of the mandates that get put out we see the intell that is attached (assuming you are cleared to see it). so we know why its being done.

Lets take the no liquids thing going on right now. Liquid explosives (a.k.a slurries) as they are called in the EOD community, can range anywhere from a clear water like liquid (nitro, TATP) too a heavy gel like hair gel usually a combo of different chemicals. These things are VERY hard to detect by x-ray alone as they can disappear when things like clothing or books are around them.
They are usually discovered through trace detection. certain x-ray equipment has the ability to detect the density of items in the bag so it can detect explosives this way as well.

Now as for the leadership, morale is something to be desired, but a lot of what we do is good solid work, tragically the ACLU (All Criminals Liberties Union) tries to tie our hands. Part of what caught these guys in Britton was the sneak&peek warrants that we used to use but cannot any more. as for the “wire tapping” we never tapped any calls what we were doing was tracking all incoming and outgoing calls from/too certain countries. weapons we could really use.

As for Mr.Bush himself, one of the things I like about him is the fact he dose what he thinks is the right thing to do at the time, and is not a “stick your finger in the air and see what way the wind is blowing” President. I do disagree with him on some things like the border issue, as for the war on terror I fully support him and what we are doing.

hope that helps a little

Jeff

Posted by: Jeff at August 13, 2006 8:14 PM
Comment #175348

Tony

Did you know that haliburton receved over 80 NO-BID contracts under Clinton?
Thats almost twice what thay have gotten under Bush and Cheney.

Jeff

Posted by: Jeff at August 13, 2006 8:19 PM
Comment #175355

The honest answer to your question Stephen is that I just don’t know! Immigration into Ireland is a pretty recent thing. We were historically much more conditioned to emigration. As for the UK, France, Germany etc, I think that’s a somewhat complex question. Your question about the reinforcement of the kind of problems that discouraged assimilation in the first place is kind of a loaded question, like the one asking if you’re still beating your wife! Whereas my info in this area is a little thin, I do know that is parts of the UK, there are whole immigrant communities who hardly interface with British society at all, even importing arranged spouses from Asia for their children. Many in these communities do not even speak english. As against that, it the early days of immigration into the UK from Asia, there was very pronounced racism, whereas now it is more subtle. In France, there is officially no racism, liberte egalite et fraternite and all that. As you probably know from the riots there recently, there is a very large number of north african immigrants and their French born children who do not participate substantially in the French economy. But then, there are lots of indigenous French kids too who do not participate in the economy. Again, as you probably know, France is a very inflexible economy, which is largely run to maintain the status quo, thus preserving the benefits of those who have state jobs particularly. In Germany, the Turks were brought in to service the wirtschaftwunder, as gastarbeiters, or guest workers. It was never intended that they would settle and assimilate. There is a very noticeable undercurrent in German society now, particularly among younger Germans, who are chafing at the German sense of guilt from the war. I have had young Germans stay with my family, on exchange with my kids, who both have spent considerable time in Germany. In discussion with these students, they clearly feel it’s time for Germany to get over things that current generations had no responsibility for. The sheer scale of immigration from Muslim countries is unsettling many ordinary citizens across Europe. Again, you are probably aware of the slaying of Theo van Gogh in Amsterdam by an outraged Muslim who disapproved of van Goghs film work. What I can say is that across Europe people are becoming increasingly disturbed by large numbers of immigrants coming into our countries who have no wish to assimilate, and some of who are lobbying for Sharia law and against liberal aspects of European societies. I don’t know what the solution to this problem is, but I do feel that we have to at least contain the problem by putting up the shutters to new arrivals. That in only my personal opinion, but my sense is that it is an increasingly common one which in often unspoken in these politically correct times. Such views are often decried as racist and so few people are willing to publicly voice them. But as mainstream parties run shy of the issue, right wing extremist parties are on a roll. I know that you guys have a better way of assimilating your immigrant communities, but largely your immigrants are from countries that do not have huge cultural clashes with the US. It’s a problem that European countries are going to have to address sooner rather than later.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at August 13, 2006 9:19 PM
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