Good Immigrant, Bad Immigrant

A country is as smart as the people who live & work there. America attracted the brightest people from around the world. Einstein was not born in America; he chose to be an American. Many of the scientist and entrepreneurs who created our high tech industries came to our country for the opportunities. In return they greatly increased our country’s wealth. We are jeopardizing this with our shortsighted visa policy.

The U.S. is the destination of choice for the best students from around the world. But since 9/11 we have made it increasingly onerous for them to get visas to study in our country. We have legitimate security concerns, but we should not throw out the baby with the bathwater. More and more, other countries are offering similar quality education opportunities. We are blowing our lead.

Meanwhile, we are sabotaging our high tech industry by severely limiting the numbers of H-1B visas available to high tech workers. We are also antagonizing our friends who want to visit or do business with us by our complicated and sometimes difficult visa procedures.

We need to be more selective and smarter about immigration. Some immigrants wash up on our shores and become burdens. We should certainly exclude them if we can. Others, however, enrich our country with their skills and intelligence. They create wealth in the U.S. and create jobs here. We should encourage them. We certainly should not exclude the best students or the cleverest engineers because of a general fear of immigration.

Don't let xenophobia exclude tomorrow's Einsteins or even tomorrow's William Shatners or Andy Groves.

A good immigration policy means being smart about it. Excluding good people is as stupid as freely admitting bad ones.

Posted by Jack at August 2, 2006 10:43 PM
Comments
Comment #172940

Jack:

I don’t feel it’s xenophobia to want there to be a fair balance. Qualified American workers should come first, before someone on a visa who works for less.

We do have a long way to go to straighten out the immigration mess.

Posted by: womanmarine at August 2, 2006 11:38 PM
Comment #172942

Jack, couldn’t agree more. A nation is its people. Given the large number of immigrants, it is only logical for voters and our government to demand by law and strict border security, that America’s immigration laws hold to high standards and are enforced to insure those standards.

Posted by: David R. Remer at August 3, 2006 12:01 AM
Comment #172943
Jack wrote: A country is as smart as the people who live & work there.

Then why are we importing poverty, crime, and disease?

America attracted the brightest people from around the world … We are jeopardizing this with our shortsighted visa policy.

Of course. We prefer to import poverty, crime, and disease.

We snub or give highly qualified, educated, and intelligent immigrants a hard time.

Jack wrote: The U.S. is the destination of choice for the best students from around the world.
That is changing fast, as our foreign competition develop more of their own universities.
Jack wrote: Meanwhile, we are sabotaging our high tech industry by severely limiting the numbers of H-1B visas available to high tech workers.
Good. H1B visas for importing temporary and cheaper high-skilled labor is a slap in the face of ample Americans that want those jobs. H1B visas are another way for greedy corpations to drive down wages. Immigration is one thing, but importing temporary high skilled labor (willing to work for much less), when there are workers already available here in the U.S., or refusing to train and educate our own citizens is what you can call stupid.
Jack wrote: We need to be more selective and smarter about immigration.

Why? We prefer to import poverty, crime, and disease.

Jack wrote: We should encourage them.

We do. Our borders and ports are wide open, and illegal immigrants can even receive welfare, Medicaid, use our schools, and even vote in our elections.

Jack wrote: We certainly should not exclude the best students or the cleverest engineers because of a general fear of immigration.

That’s exactly what we do. Stupid isn’t it?

Jack wrote: A good immigration policy means being smart about it. Excluding good people is as stupid as freely admitting bad ones.

Never happen.
Republicans want cheap labor.
Democrats want votes.
And the voters get the annual bill of net losses of $70 billion per year.

Lots of reforms are futile until a fundamental change occurs first. Voters must stop re-electing the same irresponsible incumbent politicians standing in the way of countless, no-brainer, common-sense, responsible reforms.

Posted by: d.a.n at August 3, 2006 12:18 AM
Comment #172945

Short and sweet post Jack. I know there are some who believe America can single handedly solve all the world’s poverty issues through immigration, and I hope some post their thoughts here so we can figure out what the hell they are thinking. But the truth is that we need to begin, as a nation, to promote planned growth, and part of that is selecting only the best possible citizens to share our schools, workplaces, and neighborhoods. There are so many good candidates out there, it is a shame when others who are less appreciative and less qualified cut in line by illegally crossing the border.

Posted by: kevin23 at August 3, 2006 12:26 AM
Comment #172946

One of the worst things about our immigration problems is that politicans created it, forced states to accomodate illegal aliens, and are now pitting U.S. citizens and illegal aliens against each other.

Incumbent politicians don’t really want secure borders or ports.
Incumbent politicians want cheap labor (an under-paid, under-class) to exploit, votes, and to shift the net losses onto U.S. taxpayers.

Posted by: d.a.n at August 3, 2006 12:29 AM
Comment #172950

We should call a moratorium on immigration until such time that we can get the politicians interested enough to clean up the mess. Who cares if it takes years. Why do we need any more people in this country? 300 million seems like a good number to me.

Posted by: j2t2 at August 3, 2006 1:01 AM
Comment #172951

If you think things are bad now, just wait until the NAFTA Super Highway gets going, with the only customs inspection station in Kansas City, Mo. The first section is called the Trans Texas Corridor.

Posted by: traveller at August 3, 2006 1:03 AM
Comment #172955

Excellent post, Jack. Fareed Zakaria wrote a brilliant op-ed on the topic a couple years ago,

Some Americans might say, “Good riddance, it’s their loss.” Actually the greater loss is ours. American universities benefit from having the best students from across the globe.

But the single most deadly effect of this trend is the erosion of American capacity in science and technology. The U.S. economy has powered ahead in large part because of the amazing productivity of America’s science and technology. Yet that research is now done largely by foreign students.

The National Science Board (NSB) documented this reality last year, finding that 38 percent of doctorate holders in America’s science and engineering workforce are foreign-born. Foreigners make up more than half of the students enrolled in science and engineering programs.

The dirty little secret about America’s scientific edge is that it’s largely produced by foreigners and immigrants.

Americans don’t do science anymore.

Posted by: American Pundit at August 3, 2006 1:56 AM
Comment #172956

Want to help stop illegal immigration?
Visit http://www.numbersusa.com
and send pre-written FAXes and letters to politicians (it’s free).

So, have you noticed what incumbent politicians are doing?
Got problems?
Just do more of the following:

  • [1] immigrate more

  • [2] spend more

  • [3] borrow more

  • [4] waste more

  • [5] print more money

  • [6] toy with money suppy

  • [7] perpetuate the ever present inflation

  • [8] tax more (tax cuts are temporary)

  • [9] return to step (1)

Too many politicians think we can immigrate our way out of economic problems. Many are the same bought-and-paid-for incumbent politicians that believe in the fiat funny-money system and think we can just print more money to resolve our fiscal problems.

  • Where is the compassion for U.S. citizens that go without healthcare and access to E.R.s because ERs and hospitals are over-flowing with illegal aliens (of which many don’t pay)? Is this fair to U.S. tax payers?
  • Where is the compassion for the truly needy U.S. citizens that can not get help because of limited resources and 32% of illegal aliens receiving welfare ?
  • Where is the compassion for the illegal aliens being lured here for sub-minimum wage jobs, creating an under-class (practically slavery) ?
  • Where is the outrage of the greedy employers of illegal aliens ?
  • Where is the compassion for the U.S. victims and survivors of crimes perpetrated by illegal aliens (29% of all prisoners are illegal aliens), and the crime rates are rising.
  • Where is the compassion for U.S. Americans who’s lives have been changed forever by illegal aliens that commit crimes and spread disease ? One illegal alien in Santa Barbara, California infected 56 other people with tuberculosis as reported on April 24, 2004, by the Santa Barbara Press-News, “Anatomy of an Outbreak”. Because illegal alien migration into the USA continues unabated for the past 20 years, we now have 16,000 new cases of incurable MDR tuberculosis in the past five years. We suffer 7,000 new cases of leprosy. We tolerate 100,000 new cases of hepatitis “A” in our society. Chagas Disease, which affects 14 million South Americans and kills 50,000 annually, streams across our borders as unchecked thousands enter our society illegally. If your child goes to public school, they could be exposed, as thousands already have been.
  • Where is the compassion for the U.S. tax payers that experience a net loss of about $70 billion per year due to all the numerous problems stemming from illegal aliens?

We are enriched by legal immigration.
Not by uncontrolled, massive, illegal immigration, because it creates chaos and societal disorder. Massive legal immigration can also create chaos and societal disorder.

Illegal immigration is not an issue about race, color, ethnicity, class, or nationality, since illegal aliens are of many races from many nations.

Like j2t2 said, we need to get control of the illegal immigration problem first. Illegals are crowding out those that are trying to immigrate legally.

Posted by: d.a.n at August 3, 2006 1:59 AM
Comment #172957

In fact, Jack, your post reminds me of a speech Nancy Pelosi gave when Democrats launched their Innovation Agenda last year.

I saw it on C-SPAN, but I can’t find the transcript. Anyhow, you sound a lot like Pelosi talking about Democratic legislation to create a special visa for for the best and brightest international doctoral and postdoctoral scholars in science, technology, engineering and mathematics.

The legislation also had a ton of incentives to get American students back into science and engineering. Too bad the Republicans shot it all down…

Posted by: American Pundit at August 3, 2006 2:12 AM
Comment #172961

In general I agree with your point , Jack.

I think we do need some influx of engineers and scientists.

I work in Civil Engineering, not the pentultimate of scientific endeavor, but still a science related industry. Most of the Engineers I work with are foreign born. When I’m asked why that is, it’s because the foreign born engineers come here, will work for peanuts to prepare themselves for the P.E. exam, and then either continue at below market wages, start their own business, or gradually rise into the “good” engineers rank and demand equally high salaries.

The end result is a cheapened engineering market. Engineering rates charged to the clients have not gone down, they’ve risen, although at a slower rate than some businesses. I wonder if we benefitted or diminished a market?

Posted by: gergle at August 3, 2006 2:26 AM
Comment #172962

Just a personal data point:

I couldn’t work without childcare. I’m an attorney with my own practice as a virtual in-house counsel for a few select software start-ups. I’m also a mom. Because I have no overhead and am only an on-demand expense to my clients, I offer excellent service for a significantly reduced rate, which helps me compete against the big-name firms - it’s a win-win for me and my clients. What makes this business model possible is affordable childcare. After self-employment taxes, the little bit that would be left as “take home” after paying for traditional childcare would make it of questionable value to work at all. We were fortunate enough to find an outstanding nanny for the same rate as a high school student - except that she’s an experienced mother, and much more reliable, mature and responsible than a high school student. Without her, our income would be dramatically reduced, and my clients would have to resort to a traditional law firm and needlessly spend significantly more on their legal expenses. She’s considered “unskilled” and an “undesirable” immigrant according to the discussion here, but I and my clients both enjoy an economic advantage due to her presence.

P.S.: because she now has a steady, although very limited, income (less than half the poverty level since I only need her part-time), she has ceased applying for the medical benefits for which her U.S.-citizen children would otherwise be qualified because she wants to be self-sufficient.

Posted by: Liz at August 3, 2006 2:38 AM
Comment #172963

I suspect about the best thing we can possibly do for our country is to allow to immigrate WAY more qualified (H1B-type) immigrants. The current 150,000 or so is way too low. ALL OUR IMMIGRANTS SHOULD BE THE BEST AND BRIGHTEST, and go through H1B or equivalent channels.

As the saying goes, “First rate people associate themselves with first rate people. Second rate people associate themselves with third rate people.”


The other best thing we can do is to set laws/rules so that the current illegal immigrants all leave our country. As a group, Illegal Aliens seem to be the most:
- crime-focused
- drug-involved
- violent
- law-breaking / incarcerated
- un-American
- un-assimilating
- un-educatable

group ever to arrive on our shores. These are not people we want here, whether for reasons of Nature or Nurture. We should set whatever incentives are needed for them to leave on their own, as they came.

Posted by: Repvblica at August 3, 2006 3:05 AM
Comment #172968

I’m with you, Jack.

Because of the border situation, we get a lot of immigrants who, although they may be honest and hardworking, are not especially skilled. They’ll do the jobs other people don’t want for peanuts. This causes a lot of resentment, but to limit high-tech visas because of this is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Superficially, it may seem that letting in high-tech workers will drive down wages. This is basic economics, but you (generally speaking) need to consider the possibility that the worker we deny a visa will just do the same job at home for lower wages. She could even telecommute and work for the same US company. This is becoming easier and easier.

The other problem is that native-born Americans, on average, simply don’t like doing this kind of work. Ask an American student what their least favorite course is, and they’ll probably say math. (When I say “American”, take it as shorthand for US-born American. Foreign-born citizens are American, too, but I’m not talking about them.) Americans hate math. It seems to be in our cultural DNA. Since we can’t master it, we can’t do the very hi-tech work.

I’m not trying to implying that Americans are dumb. We kick ass at things like management and sales. Things that require the right personal and cultural skills. Go into any hi-tech company and we will be in sales, support, and management. The people bent over the beakers will be mostly foreign-born. This isn’t a stereotype, it’s a fact. Unless we radically change our cultural proclivities, this is going to be the division of labor for the foreseeable future.

Posted by: Woody Mena at August 3, 2006 6:56 AM
Comment #172970

Ok, let’s see if I can get rid of the junk. (See what I mean about Americans?)

I’m with you, Jack.

Because of the border situation, we get a lot of immigrants who, although they may be honest and hardworking, are not especially skilled. They’ll do the jobs other people don’t want for peanuts. This causes a lot of resentment, but to limit high-tech visas because of this is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Superficially, it may seem that letting in high-tech workers will drive down wages. This is basic economics, but you (generally speaking) need to consider the possibility that the worker we deny a visa will just do the same job at home for lower wages. She could even telecommute and work for the same US company. This is becoming easier and easier.

The other problem is that native-born Americans, on average, simply don’t like doing this kind of work. Ask an American student what their least favorite course is, and they’ll probably say math. (When I say “American”, take it as shorthand for US-born American. Foreign-born citizens are American, too, but I’m not talking about them.) Americans hate math. It seems to be in our cultural DNA. Since we can’t master it, we can’t do the very hi-tech work.

I’m not trying to implying that Americans are dumb. We kick ass at things like management and sales. Things that require the right personal and cultural skills. Go into any hi-tech company and we will be in sales, support, and management. The people bent over the beakers will be mostly foreign-born. This isn’t a stereotype, it’s a fact. Unless we radically change our cultural proclivities, this is going to be the division of labor for the foreseeable future.

Posted by: Woody Mena at August 3, 2006 7:01 AM
Comment #172973

My Name Is Roger:

If they work here and live here and share in the bennefits of being here… they should also share in the responibilities of being here, such as

1. Suporting and upholding the Consitution of the United States Of America.
2. Obeying all of the laws of the United States Of America.
3. Paying all of the taxs due to the City and County and State and the Federal Government.

When that do not…they should leave!!!!

ROGER

Posted by: ROGER at August 3, 2006 7:30 AM
Comment #172974

I agree with the general theme of this post. We need to secure the border immediately and then worry about reforming our immigration laws. We should be looking for the best and brightest from all over the world, but I would focus on East Asia. Nations of East Asia, such as China, Japan, South Korea, and India will be our major new competition in the future, so the more smart and technically skilled people we can get from that region, the better for us. I would also look to Eastern Europe where they generally have excellent schools but not enough of an economy, which would make America very attractive to them.

Another place we might look in the future is the Middle East. Provided we can comprehensively screen both students and immigrants, it might help our image for people from the Middle East to see America firsthand. They’ll probably notice that we aren’t quite the Great Satan they try to make us into and would probably talk about us in a positive light to thier family and friends back home which could help our image in that region.

I don’t think its practical for us to deport all of the illegals here now, as this would be on a massive scale. Also, I don’t think it particuarly fair to punish people for taking advantage of the fact that we’ve been too stupid to control our own borders. However, I do think its incorrect to say that Americans won’t do the type of work illegal immigrants do. We would, but we won’t do it for the slave labor rates that illegal immigrants are forced into by greedy and exploitative employers. The current administration has been negligent to the point of criminality over this issue.

I tend to think that Bush’s plan, which is similar to the Senate’s is probably the best long-term solution. We should probably also seperate the securing of the border from our immigration policy. I’m sure we’ve all noticed that since the House and Senate differ so radically on immigration policy in their bills, they’ve decided to do nothing and let both the border and our immigration policy continue to fester. We as a nation cannot continue to have a basically open border, nor can we ignore our immigration issues. Both are in dire need of reform.

Posted by: 1LT B at August 3, 2006 7:54 AM
Comment #173006
I don’t think its practical for us to deport all of the illegals here now, as this would be on a massive scale. Also, I don’t think it particuarly fair to punish people for taking advantage of the fact that we’ve been too stupid to control our own borders.

Exactly. Voters are culpable too since keep re-electing irresponsible, bought-and-paid-for, corrupt incumbent politicians.

And, forced mass deportation is a bad idea.

Illegal aliens should leave, but it should not be by force. We should help them leave, peacefully. There is a common-sense solution, but politicians avoid it like the avoid other common-sense, no-brainer reforms.

Illegal aliens merely looking for work should not be mistreated or harmed. But, that is what can happen as irresponsible politicians refuse to resolve the problem, and pit Americans and illegal aliens against each other by forcing Americans to foot the $70 billion per year of net losses due to illegal aliens.

I am not for Bush’s sneaky plan though.
Another guest worker plan is just another amnesty in disguise, which will quadruple the problem again, as did the amnesty of 1986. There is a reasonable solution that does not reward illegal aliens, nor let them cut to the front of the line ahead of people that respect our laws and are attempting to immigrate legally.

Also, how are we to be more successful and selective of attacting the best and brightest, when we are allowing illegal aliens to crowd them out? And, illegal aliens are not just crowding out those attempting to immigrate legally. Illegal aliens are crowding out U.S. citizens. With no way to accurately identify eligibility to social services, our numerous services such as welfare, Medicaid, ERs, Social Security, Medicare, hospitals, and schools are being abused (stolen). Los Angeles ERs are overflowing with illegal aliens, while our own U.S. citizens wait (and die). Illegal aliens are stealing from us. It is that simple. The total cost is a net loss (over $70 billion annually) to U.S. citizens. And the cost does not even include the untold cost of crime, disease, and 2.3 million displaced American workers.

Posted by: d.a.n at August 3, 2006 10:36 AM
Comment #173007

You’ve got to worry about some supposedly
“conservative” opinion when someone as “American”
as “Fareed Zakaria” is quoted as a big fan of
your opinion.

And yeah, some people do make big $$$ (is that
what you mean by “creating wealth”) exporting
high-paying US jobs to the 3rd world.

Posted by: Fred at August 3, 2006 10:40 AM
Comment #173017

Anyone who employs an illegal immigrant should be heavily fined. I hear these sob stories all the time from people who happen to be able to afford to pay a salary (albeit a low one) to an illegal to provide a service such as baby care, and as a result have this great competitive edge. Problem is that there are unforeseen consequences. It’s a great deal for those with money who can afford to hire them to clean their big houses, landscape their huge yards, and watch their kids at bargain basement prices (you get what you pay for in that regard by the way). It is a crap deal for the majority of Americans who don’t need and cannot afford even cheap labor to help them with their own household tasks.

The real issue is that illegals are now competing for resources, are willing to live 3 families to a house, drive uninsured vehicles, and soak up medical care if they are injured. They bring down the quality of life, and sink demand for housing in that locality to nothing. Ever wonder why so many people in California spend 70% of their income on their house? At least part of it is because they refuse to live within their means, because that would mean living next door to 3 families who don’t speak English and whose kids run amuck on the streets making it so your own kids can’t feel safe. Rather than risk this scenario, most choose the safe harbor of living way outside their means in overly huge houses far away from city centers.

While a select few get to enjoy exploiting their cheap labor, the rest of us have to live, shop, and share schools and hospitals with people who have absolutely no respect for our American values. Hell, they are not even willing to learn English so they can communicate.

We don’t need to create an underclass at the expense of the lower middle class.

Liz, what is your name and address?…hopefully INS is monitering.

Posted by: Kevin23 at August 3, 2006 11:27 AM
Comment #173019
A good immigration policy means being smart about it. Excluding good people is as stupid as freely admitting bad ones.

Jack:

Thank you very much. This is an argument that needs to be heard. Just b/c (most) Republicans want strict policies regarding illegal immigration does not mean we are xenophobic. We merely want smart immigration.

Critics championing amnesty and an open border are so nearsighted. They don’t understand that not all immigrants want to do good in America. In fact, many immigrants drag along crime, drugs and poverty. It’s like a coffee filter: allow the skilled, highly educated immigrants that bolster the economy in while keeping the dirty grime out. If more Democrats were in power, America’s coffee would taste a lot less pure…

Posted by: Alex Fitzsimmons at August 3, 2006 11:46 AM
Comment #173022

Alex,
Dont kid yourself the repubs are just as guilty on this issue as the Dems if not more so. It is both parties doing this to the American people albeit for different reasons. So please dont break your arm patting yourself on the back, thinking your party has the moral high ground on this issue.

Posted by: j2t2 at August 3, 2006 11:58 AM
Comment #173023

Good immigrant: waits patiently to be a legal American. Avoids welfare. Learns the language. Pays taxes and for medical treatment. Lives the American Dream.

Bad immigrant: “Look, Jorge! Stupid American Guard not look! Jump wall now!” Brings drugs and 3rd world disease. Tries to destroy our culture by not adapting and expecting us to adapt for them. Doesn’t learn language. Has us pay taxes for them. Free medical treatment (We are paying for it) and closes hospitals. Commits crime. Steals jobs from our good immigrants.

KEEP BAD OUT!!!

That sums this blog topic up.

Posted by: stubborn conservative at August 3, 2006 12:06 PM
Comment #173026
Anyone who employs an illegal immigrant should be heavily fined.

Yes, they should be, just as soon as there is a reliable way to prove identity, and citizenship.
Biometrics would be most useful there, but many oppose it. So we are unable to easily know who is really a citizen, and who is not.

And, Republicans want cheap labor (an under-paid, under-class) to exploit.

Many illegal aliens risk their lives coming here.

How greedy is it to lure illegal aliens here just to make a larger profit ? (many paying sub-minimum wage, and paying no taxes).

And, Democrats want votes. Yes, believe it not, illegal aliens are voting in our elections. With elections as close as some have been (e.g. the general 2000 election), a few votes can make a difference. It is no laughing matter.

But, no common-sense, no-brainer reforms are possible as long as voters keep re-electing irresponsible incumbent politicians that create these problems for their own self-gain, always heaping the costs onto the U.S. tax payers, and pitting Americans against each other and against illegal aliens.

Alex Fitzsimmons wrote: Critics championing amnesty and an open border are so nearsighted.

Or something. Look deeper. Many are simply misguided and fear anything that appears mean, and always choose what appears benevolent.

But, many have ulterior motives that are selfish and sinister.

j2t2 wrote: Alex, … the repubs are just as guilty on this issue as the Dems if not more so. It is both parties doing this to the American people albeit for different reasons.

Absolutely.
All are culpable.
Republicans want cheap labor.
Democrats want votes (and some want cheap labor too).
But, voters empower them (keep re-electing them), even though they are getting stuck with the the bill (over $70 billion per year).

Hence, politicians prove they can do anything they want, while voters keep re-electing them.

Posted by: d.a.n at August 3, 2006 12:15 PM
Comment #173027

Jack:

I have three comments to make:

Don’t let xenophobia exclude tomorrow’s Einsteins or even tomorrow’s William Shatners or Andy Groves.

1) I’d vote for nearly anything that would keep future William Shatners out. They start out in cheesy but interesting futuristic roles, but before you know it, they think they can sing or dance or…. even do serious acting. :)

2) I’m hoping d.a.n. will repeat his post a couple more times so that I can see his links in brown several more times. He must think people have missed them the first couple of times. :)

3) We do need to allow the “good” people in while keeping the “bad” people out. No system will be perfect. But lets set the bar in the right place.

Posted by: joebagodonuts at August 3, 2006 12:19 PM
Comment #173030

Thanks joebagodonuts.
I don’t want to let you down.
Here ya go. : )

_____GOOD IMMIGRANT________
Immigrates LEGALLY.
Respects U.S. laws.
Avoids becoming one of the 29% of all imprisoned illegal aliens.
Avoids becoming one of the 32% of all illegal aliens receiving welfare.
Avoids becoming one of the 50% of all illegal aliens that don’t pay income taxes.
Pays for insurance for vehicles they drive.
Pays taxes to help pay for schools, hospitals, ERs, Medicaid, Social Security, Medicare, prisons, law enforcement, infrastructure, insurance, voting systems, etc.
Votes.
__________________________

_____BAD IMMIGRANT________
I cross ocean, poor and broke,
Take bus, see employment folk.
Nice man treat me good in there,
Say I need go see Welfare.
Welfare say, “You come no more,
We send cash right to your door.”
Welfare checks, they make you wealthy,
Medicaid it keep you healthy!

By and by, Got plenty money,
Thanks to you, U.S. taxpayer dummy.
Write to friends in motherland,
Tell them ‘come, fast as you can’
They come in turbans and Ford trucks,
I buy big house with welfare bucks.
They come here, we live together,
More welfare checks, it gets better!

Fourteen families, they moving in,
But neighbor’s patience wearing thin.
Finally, neighbor guy moves away,
I buy his house, and then I say,
“Find more aliens for house to rent.”
In my yard I put a tent.
Send for family they come fast,
But they, too, soon, draw welfare cash!
Everything is very good,
Soon we own whole neighborhood.

Welfare pay for baby feeding.
Kids need dentist?
Wife need pills? We get free!
We got no bills! Taxpayer crazy!
He pay all year, To keep welfare running here.
We think America darn good place!
Too darn good for gringo face.
If they no like us, they can scram,
Got lots of room in Pakistan.
__________________________

Posted by: d.a.n at August 3, 2006 12:33 PM
Comment #173047

d.a.n.,

You do repeat some things a little often, but I agree w/ your message, and am amazed by your most recent post.

I would like to add GOOD IMMIGRANT is:
- intellectual (not uneducated or too often ‘stupid’ — and since there is a genetic component to intelligence, dumb people often have dumb kids)

- energetic and driven (not lazy)

- has the highest integrity and personal values, as best we can judge them (instead of being a blight on society)

- receives the highest scores on US Administered IQ test, Meyers Briggs, etc. We should actively test immigrants — we want smart, well adjusted people (not anti-social, maladjusted idiots)

- has the skills US Companies most need to beat their foreign competitors — has a high undergrad Grades, and maybe a graduate degree in science/engineering (instead of unskilled labor)

- likes and is proud of the US and our people(doesn’t ‘Booo!’ the US National Anthem at soccer games)

- wants to assimilate (not part of ‘Reconquista!’ or advocating ‘Bilingual America’)

Posted by: Repvblica at August 3, 2006 2:08 PM
Comment #173048

Repvblica,

Perhaps we need some sort of exchange program, where we can get rid of some bad Americans, and exchange them for some of the best and brightest immigrants?

Can we start with Congress?
I think they deserve to be deported (exiled) more than anyone else.

: )


Posted by: d.a.n at August 3, 2006 3:02 PM
Comment #173056

I see a whole lot of whining, complaining, and griping but see no solutions.

and D.A.N,

that list of what being a good immigrant says can also be applied to what being a good citizen that was born here also.

Posted by: The Griper at August 3, 2006 3:25 PM
Comment #173062

The Griper,

I agree. That’s the purpose of the exchange program (a joke of course, but I wish it wasn’t).

We can help other nations, many impoverished, and we do, often, all the time. We are fairly generous. But that does not mean that we are obligated to let everyone else come live with us.

If no nations had the sovereign right to control their borders and immigration, too many would always descend upon greener pastures, consume everything, use it all up, leave it barren and desolate, and find a new target to descend upon, over and over, wreaking havoc wherever they go.

Massive, uncontrolled immigration breeds chaos, societal disorder, racism, and resentments. It is irresponsible for government to use immigration as a tool to manipulate economies and demographics. It is equally irresponsible for voters to empower irresponsible incumbent politicians (knowingly or unwittingly).

Perhaps the poem above is in bad taste, but there is some truth in it. While most illegal aliens are looking for work, too many are coming for welfare and crime, and they are all here illegally. It won’t end until the magnets are eliminated. The magnets will not be eliminated until the government becomes responsible. The government won’t become responsible until the voters become responsible, and stop re-electing irresponsible incumbent politicians.

And, as for solutions, here is a fair solution, that is fair to illegal aliens, U.S. citizens, and legal immigrants already in line.

But, remember, that and other solutions will never occur until we make a more fundamental change first. It is all futile until voters force politicians to be responsible and accountable too. Until then, the majority of us are to blame.

The Griper,
You are right, sort of. I’d like to see more solutions too. We are much too long on griping and identifying problems, but far too short on action to resolve them. There actually are many proposed solutions on this and many other blogs for many problems.

Here are a number of common-sense, no-brainer S O L U T I O N S, and they start with the first, fundamental change that is required before all others are possible.

But, none of those will ever come to pass without making one fundamental change first.

Posted by: d.a.n at August 3, 2006 4:06 PM
Comment #173090

d.a.n.-

If nothing else, I gotta respect your dedication.

Posted by: David S at August 3, 2006 5:45 PM
Comment #173108

Jack,

here’s the thing about Einstein: when he came here, he was already an internationally-recognized scientist and professor who could not get a job in Nazi Germany because he was a Jew, like many educated Jewish Germans (then later Czechs, Hungarians, French, etc.) of the time. He chose to become an American because it was basically either do that or die in poverty and/or in a concentration camp.

How many people can you identify who are already educated, skilled and in demand in this country who can’t get in because of this supposedly xenophobically-induced immigration bureaucracy?

No, the people wanting in to this country are only in demand because they’re willing to work for pennies on the dollar and will become trained here then take their training back to their home countries, where they have even better situations awaiting them, completely unlike Einstein and the other exiled Europeans of the Nazi era.

I agree the US immigration policies need overhaul, both to let in the good and to keep out the bad. But to put Albert Einstein up as a poster child for this need for overhaul would be laughable if it weren’t so entirely absurd.

So tell me: why hasn’t the Republican-controlled Congress done something about it?

Posted by: Crazy_joe_divola at August 3, 2006 6:36 PM
Comment #173119

Sure, send back all the illegal workers…you won’t have any meat on your table, because no one else will work in the hell hole slaughterhouses for minimum wage.

Posted by: Lynne at August 3, 2006 7:45 PM
Comment #173125

Raise the wage. Problem solved. Meat costs 10 cents more per pound (the price is based on so many other aspects than just slaughterer wages). I can handle that.

Posted by: Kevin23 at August 3, 2006 7:51 PM
Comment #173133

David S., Thanks.

Lynne,

$70 billion per year will pick a lot of lettuce and slaughter a lot of meat. It is one of many myths (that the U.S. will collapse without illegal aliens), because illegal aliens create a net loss of over $70 billion annually, because half don’t pay income taxes, many receive welfare, Medicaid, food stamps, receive free medical care, flood our ERs and hospitals, fill our prisons (29% of all prisoners nationwide are illegal aliens), and that does not even include the untold cost of crime, disease, and 2.3 million displaced American workers.

Posted by: d.a.n at August 3, 2006 8:03 PM
Comment #173136

Crazy-Joe,

I happen to totally disagree with you re:

How many people can you identify who are already educated, skilled and in demand in this country who can’t get in because of this supposedly xenophobically-induced immigration bureaucracy?

Not xenophobia, but I personally know MANY such people, and this is one of the constant gripes amongst European Social Groups here in the Silicon Valley area. They are being kicked out when they cannot find another employer to sponsor them (very expensive for the employer). As Europeans they get little Affirmative Action, but are over-educated, over-professional, bright, ambitious, low and mid level engineers, scientists, managers, etc. Ditto for the Indians, Chinese, …

If you work in High Tech, attend Graduate Engineering school, or work in Silicon Valley, you will get to know these people by the 100s.

WANT TO SOLVE THE HEALTHCARE CRISIS??? The AMA also insures we keep out foreign MDs. How about we allow in more physicians?? The AMA want to protect US physicians at your expense. How good/nice/responsive/respectful/cheap is YOUR healthcare??

Eastern Europeans are not allowed to even visit here for vacations. Do you know how many educated, bright, hardworking, social, english speaking (they *learn*) could come here how fast. Have you been there? Ask those who have — these people would LOVE to be Americans.

With China, India, Africa, … I firmly believe we could have 2 million GREAT immigrants here each year for 4-5 years, before the demand tapers off. Not all PhDs, but ALL LITERALLY LIGHT YEARS BEYOND THE DEADBEAT, DRUGGIE, GANG-BANGING, UNEDUCATED, UNAMBITIOUS, WELFARE MOTHER / ABSENT FATHER, LAZY ILLEGALS.

Is there anything good about these Illegals? In addition to the crime, drugs, poverty, Reconquista / Anti-Assimilation, I-Take-Not-Give mentality … do you see American guys wanting to marry Illegal women, or American women wanting to marry Illegal men? Are they great athletes who are desirable to our sport teams? Are they beautiful physically and desirable to our modeling agencies?

Mentally, socially, professionally, educationally, athletically, attractively, … these are PEOPLE WE ARE BETTER OFF WITHOUT. They should go home. These are not desirable people in nearly any sense of the word.

If they are not allowed to use any social services, welfare, free education, … and we FULLY PROSECUTE COMPANIES WHO ILLEGALLY EMPLOY ILLEGALS, they will mostly leave on their own.

Let’s be nice. Wish the Illegals well. Yes, they crashed our party, entered our homes uninvited, and overstayed their welcome.

But many did not mean harm. Don’t begrudge them, BUT THE PARTY IS OVER AND IT IS TIME FOR THEM TO GO HOME.

Posted by: Repvblica at August 3, 2006 8:21 PM
Comment #173142

d.a.n.,

well, there is a start for a solution, the fact of the need to present solutions. this would result in debating the pros and cons of any solutions rather than the problems.

another start would be to eliminate the arguement by emotion. laws should be logical rather than of emotion. and it is here that people need to understand.

how many times have you seen an arguement that plays upon emotion to present its validity? this is especially true in this society where arguements are put forth to create a guilt trip on others.

how many times have you heard the accusation of being prejudice or racism just for taking a position on an issue?

as for the idea of a fence to secure the borders, this is proof and an example of what i’m saying. look how the Espanic community reacted to the idea. or take the fence that Isreal built. remember the reaction of the world community against Isreal?

Posted by: The Griper at August 3, 2006 9:03 PM
Comment #173152

You have to be kidding me…

I have plenty of friends who are not becoming scientists and engineers and computer programmers because they understand their job will be taken by an immigration paid at a lower wage.

Posted by: Mike Tate at August 3, 2006 9:58 PM
Comment #173154

Your editorial does not address the problem of fat, lazy, indolent and inbred AMERICANS!

We should be so lucky that all our native born, self-righteous fat-ass, lazy, suck at the teat citzens showed as much ingenuity, pluck and stick-to-it-ovness as our immigrant class.

Jus because you came here first does not make you an asset to the country. A lot of American citizens should be deported for their simple arrogance.

Posted by: hank chapot at August 3, 2006 9:59 PM
Comment #173155

Repvblica:

If you work in High Tech, attend Graduate Engineering school, or work in Silicon Valley, you will get to know these people by the 100s.

I work in high tech; I know these guys by the hundreds; WE (I and my peers) are training these guys who come in knowing NOTHING about our technology so they can do the work we currently do. Then they go back to India or Brazil or whatever and transfer their skills to their peers there. I went to Comp Sci graduate school - basically same story. These guys train here then go back where they came from to do the work. The US benefits from them paying their tuition, of course. But they don’t benefit the US, directly at least, by their training. They benefit their home countries.

Posted by: Crazy_joe_divola at August 3, 2006 10:03 PM
Comment #173158
Jus because you came here first does not make you an asset to the country. A lot of American citizens should be deported for their simple arrogance.

I agree. We need an exchange program, and someplace to send irresponsible, bought-and-paid-for, money-grubbin’ , pandering, corrupt, incumbent politicians, who should go first.

Where can we send them?

After all, who would want them?

Ooopppppsss. I guess we do, since we keep re-electing them. Doh !

Who is dumber?

Politicians want increased immigration.
Much, much more.
Why is that?
You have to understand how it benefits them.
Economists like immigration.
Cheap labor is good for profits. Most Republicans want to sustain that cheap labor.
However, they overlook the costs to others.
That cheap labor is often less educated, and there is a cost for importing poverty and the less educated.
Some Libertarians don’t like the idea of borders, anywhere. They overlook the chaos and societal disorder that results from rapid and/or massive immigration (legal or illegal).
Some politicians (mostly Democrats) want votes and lean toward the libertarian direction.

Our Middle Class is headed for the Lower Class. Our working poor are headed for welfare lines while illegals do the jobs that all Americans would work (for a living wage), but can’t because illegal aliens depress wages and steal jobs. What happens when another 20 million breach our borders and take even more of our jobs? How long can we allow irresponsible incumbent politicains take us down this path?

Where does that leave us? Out in the cold. And we are running up so much insane debt, we can’t pay it off. We’re on the edge of a financial cliff.

We need to replace 33 (or as many as possible) senators in the 2006 elections because they are deadweight. We need to replace the House of Representatives in that same election with men and women who will change course, and stop selling us out for their own personal gain.

If we don’t change course soon, we’ll end up like the Titanic.

Posted by: d.a.n at August 3, 2006 10:41 PM
Comment #173164

No papers = bad
College educated = good

Reduce the ones who have no papers by:

1) Closing some of the border with a fence.
2) Go after those who hire illegals. Requiring that those who hire undocumented people MUST pay a wage LESS than they would receive in their own country for similar work. Fine them big if they don’t.
3) Send all undocumented people home who are convicted of any crime (and those who do not show for their court dates).
4) Oh, and we need cheaper crash dummies.

Posted by: Don at August 3, 2006 11:11 PM
Comment #173178

We need to scrape that damn poem off the pedestal of the Statue of Liberty. It proclaims an ideal this country doesn’t believe.

Posted by: Trent at August 4, 2006 1:25 AM
Comment #173195
Then why are we importing poverty, crime, and disease?

And the voters get the annual bill of net losses of $70 billion per year.

Bad immigrant: “Look, Jorge! Stupid American Guard not look! Jump wall now!” Brings drugs and 3rd world disease

I would like to add GOOD IMMIGRANT is:
- intellectual (not uneducated or too often ‘stupid’ - and since there is a genetic component to intelligence, dumb people often have dumb kids)

Mentally, socially, professionally, educationally, athletically, attractively, ?these are PEOPLE WE ARE BETTER OFF WITHOUT. They should go home. These are not desirable people in nearly any sense of the word.


Espanic community reacted to the idea. or take the fence that Isreal built.

Democrats want votes.

Okay Jack, I understand now why you are so paranoid, if these statements are a reflection of the attitude and views of the right. I do not agree with your suggestion that only intelligent/educated immigrants should be allowed to migrate into the United States. For I still believe in that plaque in front of the Statue of Liberty: Give me your tired, your poor… The brightest minds in US history have come from those “huddled masses”.

The following is from a report entitled “Immigration and the Regional Economy”, that can be found at the USC School of Policy, Planning and Development. The term “immigrant” is defined as any foreign born national, regardless of legal status here in the United States. I thought the following could be helpful, despite the previous gibberish that was written previously.

Census Bureau director Kenneth Prewitt reported that preliminary 2000 census data shows that at the national level, immigrants speak English sooner, get educated quicker and buy homes earlier than ever before. In the past, the language barrier took three generations to overcome.

Because immigrants are young and of working age, they support the economy with their labor, replacing a retiring native population. Immigrants from Latin America are generally poor and unskilled; their arrival maintains and expands the supply of low-wage labor, a major component of the national economy. At the same time, the expansion of the labor force increases the benefits available for social security.

A 1998 study conducted by the National Immigration Forum and the Cato
Institute estimates that “the total net benefit (taxes paid over benefits received) to the Social Security system in today’s dollars from continuing levels of immigration is nearly $500 billion for the 1998-2022 period”. A 1997 study conducted by the National Academy of Sciences determined that since many immigrants are young and begin working at an early age, immigrants contribute roughly $1,800 per person more in taxes than they receive in benefits.

The fore mentioned report makes no recommendations on immigration. It was just a report on the economic impact from immigration. I do believe there is an illegal immigration problem, but paranoia will not assist us in our search for a solution. Border Security is a Red Herring that would prove unnecessary if Businesses were fined sufficiently if they continued to employ illegal aliens. If Border Security is really a priority we then need to also look at putting fence between us and Canada and increasing patrols on our coast.

We don’t need biometrics, just tighten up or revamp the national id system we have already in place, the Social Security Card. But before this, we need to address the problem of what to do with the illegal aliens already here? Jack I would think even you would agree that removing 11 million people out of our labor force and economy would result in more than just a ten cent rise in the cost per pound of meat.

Posted by: Cube at August 4, 2006 3:30 AM
Comment #173206

Thank you, Cato, for injecting a bit of sanity into this thread. Here is some more information taken from Immigration: The Demographic and Economic Facts, a report published late last year by the Cato Institute and the National Immigration Forum.

The total number of immigrants per year (including illegal immigrants and refugees) nowadays is somewhat less than it was in the peak years at the beginning of the 20th century when U.S. population was less than half as large as it now is.

The rate of immigration relative to population size now is low rather than high. Immigration as a proportion of population is about a third of what it was in the peak years.


The foreign-born population of the United States is 8.5 percent of the total population (as of 1990). The proportions in the United States during the period from before 1850 to 1940 were
higher—always above 13 percent during the entire period from 1860 to 1930—and the proportions since the 1940s were lower. The present proportion—8.5 percent—also may be compared to the 1990s’ proportions of 22.7 percent in Australia; 16 percent in Canada; 6.3 percent in France; 7.3 percent in Germany; 3.9 percent in Great Britain; and 5.7 percent in Sweden.

New immigrants are more concentrated than are natives in the youthful labor-force ages when people contribute more to the public coffer than they draw from it; natives are more concentrated in the childhood and elderly periods of economic
dependence when the net flows are from the public to the individual. Of all the facts about immigration relevant to its economic effects, this is the most important, and the one which
is most consistent in all countries, in all decades and centuries.


Immigrants, even those from countries that are much poorer and have lower average life expectancies than the United States, are healthier than U.S. natives of the same age and sex. New immigrants have better records with respect to infant mortality and health than do U.S. natives and immigrants who have been in the United States longer.

Immigrants do not cause native unemployment, even among low-paid or minority groups. A spate of respected recent studies, using a variety of methods, agrees that “there is no empirical
evidence documenting that the displacement effect [of natives from jobs] is numerically important” (Borjas 1990, 92). The explanation is that new entrants not only take jobs, they make jobs. The jobs they create with their purchasing power, and with the new businesses which they start, are at least as numerous as the jobs which immigrants fill.

As of the 1970s, immigrants contributed more to the public coffers in taxes than they drew out in welfare services. The most recent available data (for 1975) show that each year, an average immigrant family put about $2,500 (1995 dollars) into the pockets of natives from this excess of taxes over public costs.

Illegal aliens contribute about as much to the public coffers in taxes as they receive in benefits. New data suggest that the undocumented pay about 46 percent as much in taxes as do natives, but use about 45 percent as much in services.

A poll of the most respected economists found a
consensus that both legal and illegal immigrants are beneficial economically.

Frankly, I was dismayed and embarassed by some of the comments and attitudes presented here. The glib generalizations, easy stereotyping, and reactionary hostility about the “bad” immigrants aren’t very impressive.

Posted by: Trent at August 4, 2006 5:43 AM
Comment #173207

Sorry, Cube, I got three letters of your name wrong. Another correction: the report above was published December, 1995.

Posted by: Trent at August 4, 2006 5:49 AM
Comment #173265

Trent,

Your 1995 report is too old. More recent data shows a substantial net loss due to illegal aliens. But, even studies over ten years ago show at least $24.4 billion of net losses (that includes taxes paid, etc.). Also, the number of illegal aliens jumped drastically in the late 1990’s (all largely a result of the amnesty of 1986).

True, it is wrong to demonize those merely looking for work (even if they come here illegally).

But, there are substantial net losses (over $70 billion annually) to U.S. taxpayers, and those costs do not even include the untold cost of crime, disease, and 2.3 million displaced American workers. While most come to find work, a good many commit crimes. 29% of all prisoners (nationwide) are illegal aliens (source: GAO Report 5646). An estimated 28% to 42% receive welfare. About half don’t pay income taxes. That’s not fair to U.S. workers.

But, you are right that a large part of the problem is not enforcing the laws and fining those that knowingly hire illegal aliens.

Also, politicians DO want votes and cheap labor, which is why they don’t want to deal with the problem. That’s simply a fact. They are between a rock and a hard place (sort of) because voters (footing the bill) want it stopped, but politicians don’t. Utopian politicians (the same ones that believe in the fiat funny money system) think they can solve our problems with massive immigration. They have an extremely myopic veiw of things, and could care less about the impact on the shrinking middle class. Immigration of needy, less educated people by the millions can not help the economy. It only helps greedy employers. Little of the profits are passed onto U.S. citizens. None it makes sense.

Economists that say it is good for the economy overlook the damage that massive (legal or illegal) immigration causes, and how it shifts net losses to the tax payers. Also, many economists are merely mouthpieces for the politicians and government. How does importing the less educated and impoverished help the economy? Especially when they receive substantial tax-payer funded services? When was massive, uncontrolled immigration (legal or not) good for any nation? It causes chaos, economic pressures (especially in a nation with so many social services, public education, welfare, etc.), and societal disorder. There a ample studies to verify that.

We are enriched by legal immigration.
Not by uncontrolled, massive, immigration (legal or illegal).

Illegal immigration is not an issue about race, color, ethnicity, class, or nationality, since illegal aliens are of many races from many nations.

Those trying to make a race, color, ethnicity, class, or nationality issue of it do so because all of their arguments are weak and unsustainable excuses.

There are many valid issues:

  • burden on education systems;

  • burden on healthcare systems;

  • burden on hospital systems; 84 hospitals closed/closing in California;

  • burden on welfare systems; 28% to 42% of illegal aliens receive welfare

  • burden on Medicaid system;

  • burden on Social Security and Medicare systems;

  • burden on border patrol systems; ever increasing numbers are needed;

  • burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;

  • burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;

  • burden on prison systems; 29% of state and federal prisoners (Sep-2004) are illegal aliens;

  • 2.3 million displaced American workers;
  • partly because half of all illegal aliens that don’t pay taxes, and greedy employers that don’t pay unemployment taxes, Social Security, Medicare taxes, etc.;
  • voter fraud; burden on voting systems; with close elections, this is no laughing matter;

Posted by: d.a.n at August 4, 2006 10:47 AM
Comment #173276

d.a.n.

So much for your “myth”:

Illegal Aliens Bulking up Social Security

Posted by: Lynne at August 4, 2006 11:18 AM
Comment #173282

Lynne,

Finding some data that MAY suggest that SOME illegal immigrants have SOME benefits to the economy with loose and indirect correlations does nothing to change that fact that there are massive intangable effects felt in all areas of the economy by the mere presence of 12 million illegal aliens. The number you present are biased and take only certain things into account while leaving the important effects out. I’ll leave the statistics quoting to D.A.N. who seems to have them easily accessible, but just take a look at the evolution of a city like Los Angeles. It used to be a city center surrounded by middle class suburbs all around. Now it is an unpredictable meshing of very low income neighborhoods and new development designed to be expensive so as to keep some people out. The middle class has been squeezed and forced to decide on living in a 3rd world neighborhood or paying all their salary for an unnecessarily big house, or they could just move away (many very talented and brilliant people did just that). This is just the beginning. It has completely transformed and held LA back from becoming anything close to what it could have been.

But, if Lynne is correct, they MAY “help” keep an inefficient social security system partially financed for a small time. I guess its worth it…I mean who really wants to reform anyway…lets just quick fix until the bubble bursts right?

Posted by: Kevin23 at August 4, 2006 11:49 AM
Comment #173283

Lynne,

The net losses A L R E A D Y account for Social Security taxes collected (about 6 to 7 billion). If it were not for those illegal aliens paying taxes using fake Social Security numbers, net losses to U.S. tax payers would be even higher.

But net losses still exceeded $70 billion per year, even after subtracting the Social Security taxes collected from illegal aliens.

Even if A L L illegal aliens paid Social Security taxes (about half do not), and the total taxes collected doubled, U.S. tax payers would still experience net losses of over $63 billion per year (and that does not even include the untold cost of crime, disease, and 2.3 million displaced American workers).

Sorry, I know you badly want to believe otherwise, but the F A C T s just don’t support it.

I’ve seen all the excuses. I understand it’s an emotional subject. But the facts are the facts, and illegal immigration costs U.S. taxpayers net losses of over $70 billion per year. The reasons are because of public services used by illegal aliens (welfare, Medicaid, hospitals, ERs, prisons, schools, etc.), half of illegal aliens don’t pay income taxes, don’t have large incomes, don’t pay large property taxes, are not highly educated, and send a good portion of their meager earnings back to the homelands. The value of their labor does not exceed the costs. The value of their labor is not passed onto to all Americans. The greedy employers reap the largest benefit of exploiting an under-paid under-class, and pass the other costs onto the U.S. tax payers. That’s the truth. Do your own calcualtions. Add it all up. Don’t just cherry pick the data (as above, which was easily explained). Then you will see the truth. The economic argument is a myth. $70 billion per year can pick a lot of lettuce and slaughter a lot of meat.

Posted by: d.a.n at August 4, 2006 11:49 AM
Comment #173289

Kevin23,

You are correct.
And your analysis of Los Angeles is a good example of what is in store for other cities.

Posted by: d.a.n at August 4, 2006 11:59 AM
Comment #173298

d.a.n.:

Kindly show us figures of how much social security illegal workers are getting in payment each year…

Posted by: Lynne at August 4, 2006 12:17 PM
Comment #173300

“Workers” don’t draw Social Security Lynne. Retirees and disabled people do.

What are you trying to prove anyway? I’m guess that even IF whatever point you are trying to make is true, it does VERY little or nothing to change what D.A.N. is saying.

Posted by: Kevin23 at August 4, 2006 12:21 PM
Comment #173314

Cube

We don’t seem to understand each other. The statements you quote are not mine. The message I was trying to convey in my post was that immigration is basically a good thing, but we should be more selective. Our visa policies are currently keeping out many of the smart and honest people we want in. I fear that in our zeal to keep out the disruptive elements, we also keep out the good ones. In fact we tend harder on the honest ones, since the bad don’t obey the rules.

IN fact, I advocate increased use of H-1B visas and allowing smart foreigners educated in U.S. universities to join our society.

BTW - the attitudes you mention (and quote that are not mine) may or may not be reflections of attitudes on the right. At best, they represent various personal opinions. Besides, lots of people write to blogs under false pretenses. I have seen people write a post full of misspellings and outrageous ideas and then criticize it under another name. They set up their own straw man and knock it down. So nobody here (not even me) speaks for the right.

This is what the President has to say about immigration. You may be interested to learn that you agree with him about not being able to deport the 10 million illegals. Maybe you speak for the right.

The biggest opponents of expansion of H-1B visas tend to come from the left and the proponents are on the right. The WSJ has consistently supported immigration. Both left and right are divided on the issue. I have not actually been able to detect a significant left right division at all. Do you think the Democrats are more in favor of open immigration? Do you know of any prominent politician who wants just to open the gates?

I am in favor or granting more H-1B visas. I think we should extend the visa waiver program to friendly countries of E. Europe. I believe we should simplify the student visa process and allow any graduate of an American university a chance to find a job in this country when he/she graduates.

Overall, my point of view on immigration is that it should benefit the U.S. I am not concerned with rights of immigrants to immigrate to the U.S. I don’t see immigration as a rights issue but rather as a usefulness issue, so I would favor smart or skilled people over others.

Re cheap immigrant labor, I don’t oppose it but I think we need to ask what it is doing. Many of the cheap jobs need not be done at all. If we had nobody blowing leaves, for example, it would be a net benefit. That goes for a lot of these sorts of things that people should just do for themselves or not at all. I could also do without someone bagging my groceries or carrying my luggage up to my hotel room when I travel. Other jobs currently done by people could be mechanized. If someone is coming into my country to do those things, I prefer we just say no.

Posted by: Jack at August 4, 2006 1:11 PM
Comment #173317

d.a.n.,

I looked at the page you created that you’ve posted all those links to, and it appears to me that you are not incorporating growth to the GNP that many economists attribute to immigration (both legal and illegal). It also appears that much of the crime you refer to caused by illegal immigration is caused simply by the fact that the illegal immigrants ARE illegal. I haven’t examined everything you argue to determine sources (and possible bias in the sources) because, quite frankly, I have to work for a living. Online searches identify studies that seem to support your case and well as undermine it. I admit it’s a tough issue, but nothing really undermines by belief that

1) we’ve seen in some of the comments here a disturbing tendency to demonize illegal immigrants, and demonizing of people has often been an easy way to justify hating them or ridiculing them. I don’t see the use of calling illegal immigrants lazy criminals and worse.

2) we do need to curb illegal immigration because any country needs to know who is coming into it. According to the some economists I’ve looked at, we do need more immigrants — including low-wage earning immigrants — than we get legally. So at the same time we curb illegal immigration, we need to increase the number of legal ones, and not all at the high end of the education/skill scale.

Look, this weekend I’ll try to find the time to go through all your links in more detail, and respond further. In the meantime (assuming you have the time), maybe you can think about incorporating the benefits of immigration (legal, illegal, and even refugees) into your calculations.

Posted by: Trent at August 4, 2006 1:34 PM
Comment #173322

Lynne,

Illegal aliens receive Social Security fraudulently. Some are caught. Some are not.

The point was never how much Social Security fraud exists though. However, some Legal immigrants and citizens share their Social Security with illegal aliens (usually family) that they harbour in their homes.

Likewise with welfare. Unlike Social Security, illegal aliens can receive welfare legally, receive Medicaid, use public schools, hospitals, ERs, etc. In some elections, illegal aliens can even vote.

The federal government and irresponsible incumbent politicians have forced states to accomodate illegal aliens, while ignoring the laws (breaking the law).

But, if your point is to say illegal aliens don’t receive back what they pay into Social Security, that technically is correct (excluding Social Security fraud by illegal aliens). However, the total net losses of over $70 billion per year to U.S. citizens takes that into account.

Lynne,
I know you want to believe illegal aliens are not a burden, but they are, because they are poor, uneducated, don’t earn much, and abuse numerous social programs meant for American citizens.

Many reports show that the IRS and Social Security Administrations are highly susceptible to fraud and abuse, noting reports that Social Security numbers have and are being used by millions of illegal aliens.

Another common, illegal practice is Social Security number being used by multiple people. Some citizens are even renting their Social Security numbers. It fattens the Social Security fund, and they make a few bucks on the side.

One more thing. Social Security (with $12.8 trillion of debt) and Medicare are already in big trouble. An amnesty to make millions of new low-wage, low-educated illegal aliens eligible for Social Security and Medicare will be the last nail in the coffin.

It would not surprise me much if those that want to end social program, such as Social Security, Medicare, and welfare, have that very ulterior motive.

BTW, Some polticians already tried to give illegal aliens Social Security. Fortunately, Congress voted it down.

Illegal aliens should not receive Social Security, since they used fake Social Security numbers (illegally), and they aren’t even supposed to be here in the first place. If some of their income went to Social Security, tough. It’s their own fault. They have a lot of gall and disrespect to be demanding it when they shouldn’t even be here.

Posted by: d.a.n at August 4, 2006 1:50 PM
Comment #173328
Trent wrote: d.a.n., I looked at the page you created that you’ve posted all those links to, and it appears to me that you are not incorporating growth to the GNP that many economists attribute to immigration (both legal and illegal).

Look here. I was curious about that very thing. Some report net losses far above mine, but I don’t report those because I think some are inflated. Whether inflated or not, it’s unlikely any net gains can erase the $70 billion of net losses. In the calculations, I allowed generous amounts for profits and the value of the labor, and accounted for the the taxes they paid. Others have arrived at very similar results. Even if I was off by 20%, illegal aliens would still be costing U.S. tax payers net losses of $50 billion (about $1 billion per state). And, the untold cost of crime, disease, and 2.3 million displaced workers was not even factored into any of that. The crime should not be diminished. That is simply a common result of massive, uncontrolled immigration (legal or not).

Trent wrote: It also appears that much of the crime you refer to caused by illegal immigration is caused simply by the fact that the illegal immigrants ARE illegal.
True, some of it is, but not most. Just take homicides. Look at crime in Los Angeles. Look at the numerous cities citing increased crime rates.
Trent wrote: I haven’t examined everything you argue to determine sources (and possible bias in the sources) because, quite frankly, I have to work for a living.
Me too. I’m a software engineer and artist, but I try hard to find time for important issues (not just gripin, but common-sense solutions too).
Trent wrote: Online searches identify studies that seem to support your case and well as undermine it. I admit it’s a tough issue, but nothing really undermines by belief that
I agree, and I read all of them. However, as I scrutinize each, it was not really that difficult to see who was telling the truth. It helps to understand the motivations. Some clearly have less than honorable motivations. Some however, like myself, have nothing to gain, and ain’t doin’ myself any favors at all, by taking a less-than-popular (often perceived as hard) stance on this issue.
Trent wrote: 1) we’ve seen in some of the comments here a disturbing tendency to demonize illegal immigrants, and demonizing of people has often been an easy way to justify hating them or ridiculing them. I don’t see the use of calling illegal immigrants lazy criminals and worse.
I agree. The little poem above was probably in bad taste, but it does reflect a large problem that really exists. While most illegal aliens are looking for work, many abuse our social and public services (schools, hospitals, ERs, voting system, welfare, Medicaid, prisons, law enforcement, etc.).

But, you are right. We should not demonize those simply looking for work. But, we also should not make excuses for illegal aliens.

Trent wrote: 2) we do need to curb illegal immigration because any country needs to know who is coming into it. According to the some economists I’ve looked at, we do need more immigrants — including low-wage earning immigrants — than we get legally. So at the same time we curb illegal immigration, we need to increase the number of legal ones, and not all at the high end of the education/skill scale.

I agree we need controlled, legal immigration.
Legal immigration can enrich us.
Uncontrolled, massive immigration (legal or not) is bad.
The economists that say it’s good for the economy are overlooking the burden shifted to American tax payers. Some of those economists are the same utopian economists that bought into the fiat monetary system. You can see where that’s taking us. Those economists might be right if most illegal aliens were highly educated and not impoverished. But, that’s not the case.

No matter how you look at it, how can low-educated, low-income, impoverished illegal aliens improve the economy. Especially when they don’t contribute much of a tax base, and rely heavily upon public services and programs? Sure, if it were not for all the freebies, there might be a good argument for immigration improving the economy (by exploiting an under-paid, under-class). But that’s not what’s happening. Illegal aliens receive welfare, use our schools, hospitals, ERs, and even vote in our elections. With close elections, voter fraud is no laughing matter.

Trent wrote: Look, this weekend I’ll try to find the time to go through all your links in more detail, and respond further. In the meantime (assuming you have the time), maybe you can think about incorporating the benefits of immigration (legal, illegal, and even refugees) into your calculations.

Good. I invite more to do the same. BTW, I did incorporate the profit and value of their work in my calculations (value per hour; see link above), and the taxes they pay. One thing I did not include is the money they spend. However, a good portion of it goes back to their homelands, and we are not talking about a lot of income to start with (nor a lot of taxes paid).

Posted by: d.a.n at August 4, 2006 2:31 PM
Comment #173386

How ‘bout filing charges and arresting the senators who are breaking the law, by ignoring the law and not ENFORCING THE LAWS, (which they pledged to uphold the constitution when they were sworn in) and making our constitution of no account? Impeachment is too good for them.
By the way, these sneaky little additions to bills for their ‘pet’ projects in addition to ‘emigration’ issues, need to be done away with too.
If they have the right to put “US” under survelliance, then by constitutional right, we should start survelling them. Isn’t that free speech, or would that be freedom of information? Oh, but thats the media’s job, isn’t it?

Posted by: Zena at August 4, 2006 6:40 PM
Comment #173406
Zena wrote: By the way, these sneaky little additions to bills for their ‘pet’ projects in addition to ‘emigration’ issues, need to be done away with too.

Yes, that’s why we need One-Purpose-Per-BILL amendment.

How ‘bout filing charges and arresting the senators who are breaking the law, by ignoring the law and not ENFORCING THE LAWS, (which they pledged to uphold the constitution when they were sworn in)

Personally, I’d like to see Americans march on D.C., drag the sorry, corrupt, bought-and-paid-for incumbent polticians’ butts drug into the streets and kicked all over the place. But, that’s not gonna happen.

Therefore, the next best thing is to simply ___S_T_O_P____R_E_-_E_L_E_C_T_I_N_G___ them.

Then, maybe, someone in government will pay some attention to these serious issues

Posted by: d.a.n at August 4, 2006 8:01 PM
Comment #173423

I read something in a year old issue of Scientific American that said that Immigrants (mostly the legal ones) contribute more tax dollars per capita than the average American.

Here’s the thing: Your average American has been convinced by other people that the whole thing is about easy money, about getting the highest paying jobs and driving hard to outcompete everybody else.

Unfortunately, they are also taught that math, science and technology careers are generally low paying, get little respect, and are for the really clueless people who have no life or real ambitions. Essentially, Americans have been told that the highest virtue is to become middlemen and mercenaries, administrators and entrepreneurs.

Until we recognize that our success is predicated on innovation and change as much as any status quo in technology or society, we will be running behind on the issues that matter most.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at August 4, 2006 9:51 PM
Comment #173436
I read something in a year old issue of Scientific American that said that Immigrants (mostly the legal ones) contribute more tax dollars per capita than the average American.

That’s not hard to believe at all.

Immigration enriches us, when it is legal and controlled. Massive, uncontrolled immigration (legal or not) creates chaos, disorder, crime, resentment, and racism, which is all the more reason why our government is irresponsible for forcing states to accommodate illegal aliens. There is a growing resentment as voters become more aware of the real costs and burdens.

If no nations had the sovereign right to control immigration, too many immigrants would always descend upon greener pastures, use it all up, leave it barren and desolate, and then find a new target to descend upon.

Unfortunately, they are also taught that math, science and technology careers are generally low paying, get little respect, and are for the really clueless people who have no life or real ambitions. Essentially, Americans have been told that the highest virtue is to become middlemen and mercenaries, administrators and entrepreneurs.

Yes, it is sad. I am an engineer. I went to a university with tens of thousands of students, but very few people enrolled in engineering, and the numbers are shrinking more and more.

Part of the problem is that our public schools are woefully inadequate at preparing students for college. Most high school students fear they can not get through the mathematics, because public schools have left them so inadequately prepared. Public education is also failing our children, and the burdens of massive influx illegal aliens into our public schools is exacerbating the problem.

Posted by: d.a.n at August 4, 2006 11:30 PM
Comment #173460

Why is it that a large majority of people profiled on America’s Most Wanted lately are illegal immigrants?

Did anyone notice that the issue of illegal immmigrants comes up only when the Democrats do not have a clear-cut divisive issue to use in the presidential election drive? I feel like this was all brought up to keep us busy talking about something other than the fact that unemployment is way down, the economy is chugging along at a pretty good clip, and a majority of voters actually support the war in Iraq.

BTW, I am an electrical engineer in central Florida (fastest rising rate of murders and immigration) and I had to take a pay cut to get the job I really wanted.

BTW2 — Liz, why did you bother to have children if you had no intention of raising them yourself?
I think the absence of parental guidance is a bigger factor in educational problems than anything else.

Posted by: Beth Hays at August 5, 2006 8:05 AM
Comment #173506

Beth Hays,

Before we start celebrating, look at these growing problems , growing in number and severity.

Personally, I think the glass is 40% full.
It should be at least 60% full.
I do not accept mediocrity,
or the printing of too much money,
or the massive debt,
or massive borrowing,
or massive spending,
or overall fiscal irresponsibility,
or being lied to (now )about WMD (even if it was an honest, but irresponsible mistake),
or unfair taxation,
or the growing problems, growing in number and severity, and increasingly ignored by corrupt, FOR SALE, bought-and-paid-for incumbent politicians.

Some responsible caution would be prudent.
But, where is it?
That’s what we have to fear.
Rampant spending, borrowing, printing money, and growing government to nightmare proporations,
uncontrolled greed and irresponsibility.

Just based on the government’s track record of the past few years, the growing debt, printing too much money, growing ranks of the poor, increasingly corrupt government, there are ample reasons to give any balanced person reason to be concerned. If not, they are a true optimist, and reveals the darker side of optimism. While good in small doses, too much clouds your judgement.

So, some simply want things to be better.

What is wrong with that?

I’m well aware of the petty partisan warfare, but that’s not everyone who raises a question or concern to our current path. Besides, most Americans (by a large margin) don’t agree that we are on the right path either.

Don’t be fooled by 4.5% inflation, because that’s enough to turn $100 into $70 in 8 years.

Don’t be fooled by low unemployment alone.

A few cherry picked economic statistics and a very myopic glance do N O T tell the whole picture.

Even if those raising concerns (as long as they provide supporting evidence) are wrong about the severity of the problems, what is wrong with trying to solve those problems ?

Is it because it makes the “In Party” look bad?

Seriously, the partisan motivations are powerfully strong. Reason and logic are constantly ignored if it makes the “In Party” look bad.

Those that want to minimize and trivialize some truly serious problems seem suspiciously partisan motivated. Likewise with those that try to make a mountain out of a mole hill (but they usually don’t have the supporing facts and data; just rhetoric to fuel the petty partisan warfare).

Posted by: d.a.n at August 5, 2006 1:33 PM
Comment #173507

Beth Hays,

Before we start celebrating, look at these growing problems , growing in number and severity.

Personally, I think the glass is 40% full.
It should be at least 60% full.
I do not accept mediocrity,
or the printing of too much money,
or the massive debt,
or massive borrowing,
or massive spending,
or overall fiscal irresponsibility,
or being lied to (now )about WMD (even if it was an honest, but irresponsible mistake),
or unfair taxation,
or the growing problems, growing in number and severity, and increasingly ignored by corrupt, FOR SALE, bought-and-paid-for incumbent politicians.

Some responsible caution would be prudent.
But, where is it?
That’s what we have to fear.
Rampant spending, borrowing, printing money, and growing government to nightmare proporations,
uncontrolled greed and irresponsibility.

Just based on the government’s track record of the past few years, the growing debt, printing too much money, growing ranks of the poor, increasingly corrupt government, there are ample reasons to give any balanced person reason to be concerned. If not, they are a true optimist, and reveals the darker side of optimism. While good in small doses, too much clouds your judgement.

So, some simply want things to be better.

What is wrong with that?

I’m well aware of the petty partisan warfare, but that’s not everyone who raises a question or concern to our current path. Besides, most Americans (by a large margin) don’t agree that we are on the right path either.

Don’t be fooled by 4.5% inflation, because that’s enough to turn $100 into $70 in 8 years.

Don’t be fooled by low unemployment alone.

A few cherry picked economic statistics and a very myopic glance do N O T tell the whole picture.

Even if those raising concerns (as long as they provide supporting evidence) are wrong about the severity of the problems, what is wrong with trying to solve those problems ?

Is it because it makes the “In Party” look bad?

Seriously, the partisan motivations are powerfully strong. Reason and logic are constantly ignored if it makes the “In Party” look bad.

Those that want to minimize and trivialize some truly serious problems seem suspiciously partisan motivated. Likewise with those that try to make a mountain out of a mole hill (but they usually don’t have the supporting facts and data; just rhetoric to fuel the petty partisan warfare).

Posted by: d.a.n at August 5, 2006 1:33 PM
Comment #173508

Sorry for double-post. I must have hit Post twice.

Posted by: d.a.n at August 5, 2006 1:35 PM
Comment #173530
Me too. I’m a software engineer and artist, but I try hard to find time for important issues (not just gripin, but common-sense solutions too).


Dan

Stick to the art, your math is horrible. Oh and you are right, the poem was in bad taste, but you printed it anyways.

Jack

I know the comments were not yours, I just used my comment as an excuse to point out the distasteful comments posted earlier.

Posted by: Cube at August 5, 2006 4:50 PM
Comment #173533

as someone who is about to start walking those borders. I see things this way.

Seal the borders for two years, no immigration.
During this time we do this.

One: Remove as many of the illegal’s’s as we can. sorry if your here illegally no matter how much good you’ve done or how much good you do you still broke the laws to get here and you need to go.

Two: Force the legislature too make an immigration system that WORKS.

Three: Train more CBP and Border Patrol officers to get the situation under hand.

Four: Withdraw federal funding from sanctuary city’s like LA and Denver, that make it illegal for local police to ask someone if they are legal immigrants or calling CBP if they suspect that they are.

after this time we start allowing people in agian under the new guidelines at 200k immigrants a year. once we see how effictive the new system is we kick it up too 500k and never to exceed 750k immigrants a year.

All these things can be done. it may seem unfair to the people here already but again, people MUST respect our laws if they wish to immigrate. The way i see it its far more unfair to the people that try to do it the right way.

Jeff

Posted by: Jeff at August 5, 2006 5:18 PM
Comment #173534

Cube,

It wasn’t that bad. So what?
It is not making fun of any particular race.
It is not making fun of any particular color.
The issue is not about race, religion, color, or nationality.
It is denigrating illegal aliens that come to the U.S. to steal from the U.S. tax payers.

While most illegal aliens are merely looking for work, many appear to come for the welfare and crime.
29% of all imprisoned in state and federal prisons are are illegal aliens.
32% of illegal aliens receive welfare.
Increased crime rates are also a result of massive illegal immigration.
Net losses to U.S. citizens is over $70 billion per year, and that does not even include untold losses of 2.3 million displaced American workers, crime, and disease.

You say the math is bad? Prove it.

Posted by: d.a.n at August 5, 2006 5:23 PM
Comment #173537

Jeff,
Good start.
Check out this solution.

Posted by: d.a.n at August 5, 2006 5:25 PM
Comment #173539

Oh and one thing I forgot was Birthright citizenship needs to be done away with. All it dose is cause people to come here to have what’s called “Anchor Babies”. In order for one to get citizenship by birth one or both biological parents should be citizens.

Jeff

Posted by: Jeff at August 5, 2006 5:28 PM
Comment #173542

Jeff,

That’s right.

In Larado, Texas, there were over 4,000 births last year at the Laredo, TX Medical Center maternity ward. 3997 healthy, screaming new American citizens, of whom, half were born to illegal aliens.

This scam is as old as the border itself. It is not fair to U.S. tax payers, or those that try to immigrate legally.

Not to mention, U.S. tax payers pick up the tab for the E.R. and hospital bills.

Los Angeles ERs are flooded with illegal aliens, while Americans wait (and die). As a result, 84 hospitals have closed in California.

But, you are a bad, bad person if you don’t like being taken advantage of.

But, you are a bad, bad person if you don’t like picking up the bill ($70 billion per year).

But, you are a bad, bad person if you don’t like your hospitals and ERs being overrun.

But, you are a bad, bad person if you don’t like the fact that 29% of all imprisoned are illegal aliens (and they are not in prison for one misdemeanor illegal entrance into the U.S., as some want you to think).

But, you are a bad, bad person if you don’t like the theft and abuse of social services, welfare, Medicaid, etc. 32% of illegal aliens receive welfare.

But, you are a bad, bad person if you don’t like illegal aliens over-running our public schools.

But, you are a bad, bad person if you don’t like the crime

How arrogant and disrespectful is that?
Don’t fall for it.
It is propaganda.
Look at the facts.
Ask yourself some basic questions.
How does importing poverty, crime, disease, poorly educated, and improve the economy and the nation?

All the same, illegal aliens should not be persecuted. The real problem is irresponsible, corrupt incumbent politicians that want to use the issue as a political football. As a result of their corruption and negligence, they are pitting Americans and illegal aliens against each other.

We are enriched by legal immigration.
But, N O T by massive, uncontrolled immigration (legal or not), because it creates chaos and societal disorder.

Illegal immigration is not an issue about race, color, ethnicity, class, or nationality, since illegal aliens are of many races from many nations.

Posted by: d.a.n at August 5, 2006 5:48 PM
Comment #173543

Jeff,

However, that will require a change to the Constition. So, without that, it will be difficult to stop. But, that and many magnets are what lures them here.
I don’t blame ‘em too much for wanting to come here.
But, if no nations had the sovereign right control immigration, too many immigrants would always descend upon greener pastures, use it all up, leave it barren and desolate, and then find a new target to exploit. Massive, uncontrolled immigration breeds chaos, societal disorder, racism, and resentments. It is irresponsible for incumbent politicians to use immigration as a tool to manipulate economies and demographics. It is equally irresponsible for voters to empower the incumbent politicians by re-electing them, over and over.

A majority of Americans want secured borders, illegal immigration stopped, and not another amnety like the one in 1986 that quadrupled the problem.

But, politicians won’t ever do it, nor pass any common-sense, no-brainer reforms, or anything that may reduce their power, or opportunities for self-gain, or reduce the security of their cu$hy, coveted seats of abused power.

If voters want it resolved, they’ll have to wise up, stop lazily pulling the straight-party-ticket voting lever, and start doing the one simple thing they were supposed to be doing all along, always.

  • Stop Repeat Offenders.

  • Don’t Re-Elect Them !

Posted by: d.a.n at August 5, 2006 6:04 PM
Comment #175119

d.a.n., just for the sake of closure. … I promised a week or so ago to go through all of your links and arguments. But as I started doing so, I started questioning why? I mean, I already agree we need to stop illegal immigration as much as we can, so it seemed pointless to try to make the case that illegal immigrations is beneficial economically. So I hope you don’t mind if I withdraw from the field. To paraphrase one of my favorite politicians, I ain’t got a dog in the hunt.

Posted by: Trent at August 12, 2006 1:18 PM
Comment #296111

i think alot of you have racist comments even though you might not intend it that way. For alot of your opinions you explain a good immigrant and a bad immigrant, but you got to remember that all immigrants start out as a bad immigrant. They all come not knowing english depending on welfare and etc. eventually they get legalized, learn the language and start to pay taxes! Everyone should see the two sides of every story. I grew up an american but mexican at heart. I only agree on stricter border patrol because of those other mexicans that feel as if selling drugs and sell women for prostitution is a better way of making money.

Posted by: tasheena at February 22, 2010 12:09 PM
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