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only one thing to say Isreal is to blame for eveything ,Why do we back this violent state.

You said it brother…

I watched the CNN news when they interview the representitive from Hezbollah. When directly asked about kidnapping the soldiers he said it was because, to paraphrase, Israel was a bully for the last 40 years.

I add to your comments in saying that fine maybe Israel was a bully reforming itself and it pulled out of Gaza and Lebanon. Even then Hezbollah attacked.

So you hit me 40 years ago, does that mean I can always retaliate 50 years later after you made some amends? I think not.

Dr Politico,
“Hezbollah alone is responsible for the damage that Lebanon continues to endure…”

Really? I thought the Israelis were bombing Lebanon.

“Israel should continue exercising caution throughout its military operation, utilizing every tool at its disposal to limit civilian casualties.”

I have an idea. Do not drop bombs on civilians.

As Kilgore Trout once said:
“We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane.”

Dr. Politico,

Very good article. Most people fail to realize that Hezbolla has been bombing, attacking, harassing Israel for decades. They are a politial/ideological group that is based in Lebanon. If the Lebanese government doesn’t want Isreal to lob bombs thier way, maybe they should get rid of the problem themselves. Til now, it hasn’t been of immanant importance. Now it is. Now Lebanon needs to act like a civilized, modern people and get rid of the terrorists in thier mists.

Greg,

your post was stupid - go back to sleep.

Hey - we all know that bombs don’t kill people, it’s their targets that sometimes look like women and children that kill people… right?

Israel should show restraint? Really? They dropped 500lb bombs into busy intersections to get back at terrorists who were no where near there… They want to kill to try a little of their own SHOCK AND AWE. As far as Hezbollah’s military power, they’re like weeds… you can pull all of them you can see, and they we be easily replaced in a week. And their funding and military firepower comes from Iran… don’t think Israel has done anything to change or limit that.

Fighting militia groups is a very tricky business because you can’t ignore or under respond to their acts of violence, but if you go tough on them, you will almost always kill more civilians than terrorists - and that breeds more terrorists.

Personally, I don’t like either side because neither side places any sincere value to human life (other than their own) - it’s all about some religious thing or another… Both religions represented here condemn violence and murder, yet both sides find rationalizations to excuse their behavior but not the behavior of the other’s.

They both want to kill each other - and both sides should be happy right now. Israeli leaders get to flex their muscles, and Hezbollah gets to watch it “stock” rise with the anger and new thirst for revenge. Now, if we could just get all the people who want to simply live their lives and raise families out of the way… then these guys could just go hog wild on each other. Sick and twisted way to live and die - but whatever rocks your boat, I guess.

phx8
Maybe you should tell Hezbollah to stop launching rockets into Israel. Maybe the Lebanese government should crack down on the Hezbollah terrorist causing this problem. The problem is Hezbollah even Saudi Arabia’s government says it’s Hezbollah causing all the problems.

No argument here. The people arguing that Israel is somehow responsible for this seem to be woefully uneducated about recent history.

Phx8

Question: Is it EVER possible to support war in your opinion?

I cannot think of any significant war where at least some civilians did not suffer. Thousands of French civilians died around Normany, killed by U.S. and British bombs. You probably know that a large number of people were (are) killed when defensive guns try to shoot down enemy bombers. Should they not shoot?

So you would just let the most agressive guy be the ruler, since you can do nothing to oppose him that would not risk innocent lives.

Pacifism is a great idea only as long as we don’t try to put it into practice against nasty people.

KAP,

“Maybe the Lebanese government should crack down on the Hezbollah terrorist causing this problem.”

That seems like a good solution. No question, this should have been handled by the Lebanese government. They needed help, and that help should have been forthcoming from the international community, led by the United States.

There is a novel concept. Leadership from the US.

But reigning in Hezbollah is a short term solution. Until people change their minds and their hearts, this kind of violence will continue. It is only a question of how long it takes to re-arm.

Sewing hatred will bring more people into the conflict, unless so many die there is no one left to fight.

Tony

How do you know there were no terrorists near that intersection?

Let me answer for you to save you some time and anti-semitic pandering. You don’t know.

Those lobs that Hezbollah throws into Israel have been killing, maiming and hurting far more that what Israel is doing. Picture a baseball game. The batter hits a long drive to deep center field, right up against the wall. The center fielder retrieves the ball and throws to a cutoff fielder so that the cutoff fielder can relay to do the best play for an out. The reason the center fielder does that is for speed and accuracy. Th center fielder could or would rarely be able to nail a good enough throw to home plate to get the runner. Now that distance is in most cases more thatn 400 feet and less than 500 feet. Those bombs that Hezbollah lobs are just like that center fielder. They just lob them into Israel to see what they can hit. Only they are being thrown more than 1000 feet. They are racking up frequent flier miles to get to their first virgin faster. Actually their accuracy is terrible. But if you throw a handful of marbles straight up into the air above you, you can bet that you are going to get hit on the body somewhere, but you don’t know ahead of time where.

My recommendations for reading you would not adhere to, so we aren’t even going there.

Dr. Politico

BTW-I like the post. Clear and concise.

phx8
This war has been going on for 5000yrs do you really think hearts and minds will change.

Jack,
I am not a pacifist.

I opposed invading Grenada & Panama.
I supported the First Gulf War.
I supported the intervention in Bosnia, and I supported intervention in Rwanda, though that never happened.
I opposed the mission to Somalia.
I supported invading Afghanistan.
I opposed invading Iraq.

So war as a moral intervention, for the humanitarian purpose of preventing genocide, is justifiable. This scenario demands international cooperation. It is a peacekeeping scenario, intended to stop spiraling violence.

But war should be a last resort.

The Israelis and Hezbollah have danced this dance before, and until someone changes some minds, nothing material will change.

This is Fourth Generation Warfare, Jack. Forget the Third Generation World War II mentality of mobil warfare. It is a different beast. Fight only when forced to fight; and for victory, re-examine the nature of war today, and re-examine what it means to actually win.

One wonders what Hezbollah hoped to gain. Inaccurate rockets can’t win a win; capturing a couple of Israeli soldiers isn’t likely to gain much, epecially when Israel is currently refusing to negotiate (publically at least) to get back the soldier captured by Hamas.

If Hezbollah was hoping to win a PR victory, that seems to have failed since so many Arab leaders have condemned the attacks and, apparently, the masses in the Arab world are disgusted by Hezbollah’s actions.

But if Hezbollah’s aim was to de-stablize Lebanon (with Syria’s and/or Iran’s blessing), then it may be succeeding. As a fledging and weak democracy, Lebanon may find itself under greater influence by the power players in the region.

The question is, how does Israel and the United States respond in such a way as not to de-stablize Lebanon?

I think Iran’s intention is to have Israel do what it cannot do without attracting international condemnation. They saw what Israel did to Hamas over one kidnapped soldier (who I haven’t seen returned there either) and they likely said “hmm, I wonder what happens if we do the same then have Hezbollah start launching rockets out of Lebanon”.

And so the idiotic hawks in Israel’s government oblige Iran’s strategic goals by destabilizing and radicalizing the newly minted Lebanese government, and we oblige by standing by and doing absolutely nothing. Why? Because we are all about acting not thinking, and it would be hypocritical to expect anything more out of Israel than we do ourselves.

So, acting, but not thinking, Israel creates a larger threat to its north by reacting disproportionately to a smaller one, and holding responsible a government for a militia it doesn’t have the power or independence to deal with.

Why the hell are we playing in Teheran’s hands? What does that accomplish? When’s the last time we successfully destroyed a terrorist group by conventional warfare without inflaming the strategical situation?

Though Cheney, Bush, and all these Israeli’s pay lip service to a new kind of war, in practice, they have no damn idea what they’re doing. We need better strategical minds in charge than these, or else we got to send the people we have through remedial strategy classes.

tomh -

“Let me answer for you to save you some time and anti-semitic pandering.”

Well, thanks for the insults - but your assumptions lack anything viable. I’m assuming you are calling me anti-semitic… which is laughable, but pathetic. In case you need this:

—-
Anti-Semitism (alternatively spelled antisemitism) is hostility toward or prejudice against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group, which can range from individual hatred to institutionalized, violent persecution.
—-

“How do you know there were no terrorists near that intersection?”

Because the Israeli government stated that those roads were taken out to prevent travel on a major road. They didn’t even hint that they were trying to hit terrorists - they were after the road, so it’s very safe to guess that the road (which was full of commuters) had no terrorists.

I agree that Hezbollah is completely to blame for their part in this war, but it is Israel that is recklessly attacking innocents in attempts to bring Hezbollah to it’s knees. It won’t work, as long as they have working knees.

I have no idea how to make sense of the baseball analogy… I think I kind of get it, but it’s a bit of a stretch. Btw - the Katyusha rockets being used have a range of 45 kilometres.

Phx8

“The Israelis and Hezbollah have danced this dance before, and until someone changes some minds, nothing material will change.”

Yes. Hezbollah minds will change when more of them assume room temperature and when their infrastructure is shredded.

I also agree about your different generation of war. I am really impressed at how well the Israelis are doing this. Not only are they targeting precisely Hezbollah assets, but their small teams are roaming around at mopping up the bad guys on the retail level. This is one of the best operations we have seen.

But to repeat, you need not worry. We will work - work real hard - to end this conflict in a couple of weeks.

Hezbollah is our enemy too. They brought this hell down on themselves. The more of them who within the next few days learn first hand that the 72 virgins thing is a load of crap, the better.

Stephen, I agree with you up to a point. That point is when you condemn the US for letting Israel fight. I grant you that Iran is pulling strings, but they are just as inept as we are at planning. They DO play a much better victim. The two are not the same thing, however. They have much more to lose, and in that sense, Israel is taking advantage of a clear opportunity. They know that Iran won’t show its real hand, and so, for the moment, they have a clear enemy. And every other nation that doesn’t stand to directly lose something has agreed in condemning Hezbollah. I think that says something, and it is not the norm.

I’m just not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that a buffer zone around Israel was playing into Iran’s hands. They stand to gain from bad press, but they can manufacture that without supplying people with rocket launchers. I really do think the Israeli response was unexpected, and Israel knows this, and now they have a diplomatic advantage so long as they accomplish their military goals in an effective and timely way. Of course, the risk is that they won’t.

Dr P
IRAN’S war. Hezbollah is the proxy party, the guns for hire, mercenaries. Punish local Hezbollah postions in Lebanon, force them to make a stand. When they do, crush them.

Reading Augustine - “According to the eternal law, which requires the preservation of natural order, and fobids the transgression of it, some actions have an indifferent character, so that men are blamed for the presumption if they do them without being called upon, while they are deservedly praised for doing them when required. The act, the agent, and the authority for the action are all of great importance in the order of nature.”

My take? Israel wins inspite of anti semetic leftist rants. Iran’s patsies are paying the price for their blood money, for the declaration of inhumanity as a religion. Good riddance.

I think some people might want to read up on the recent history in the area. Hezbollah has been loosing power and support with the general public lately. They knew, or at least hoped Israel would react the way they did to help foster support for themselves. Again, both parties involved with this shore up their base and gain momentum for their cause.

It’s only going to get worse in the next few years.

Kevin 23-
I don’t mind them trying to eliminate Hezbollah positions. That would actually be justified and sensible. It’s all the extra punitive strikes and bombing of infrastructure that gets them in trouble. If people understand that the Hezbollah militias brought this crap on themselves, and Hezbollah militants are the only ones getting an Israeli boot in their keister, then people will get the idea that Hezbollah has it coming, if they’re not sympathizers.

If, however, Israel blindly attacks civilian positions, it makes the Lebanese think that Israeli’s are taking the fight to them unfairly, and that they need somebody to defend them, which Hezbollah is more than willing to do.

Israel, from the looks of it, is not going in with precision raids, but instead is taking the tack of dropping bombs in civilian rich zones. They even got the PM up in arms about this.

Please don’t assume that I’m trying to negate Israel’s rights to defense. I’m just saying that this strategy of retribution against the Lebanese, only serves Hezbollah’s agenda.

JR-
Anti-semitic? You care to back that charge up with proof? Last I heard, our problem was with Israel’s strategy and policies, not it’s ethnic make-up. Fact is, Israel attacks might damage Hezbollah, but it’s unlikely to kill it and no guarantee exists that there won’t be an even worse group set up in its place. Which is not to say don’t destroy it, but rather kill it so that it’s kind of movement stays dead. That means destroying the motivation for people to join up, to support it. So far, the bombings have not had that effect.

So, the sweethearts at hezbollah have set up road blocks to keep the innocent civilians from leaving south Lebanon. Once again these wonderful people are using human shields and the defenders of the terrorists have nothing to say about that. Let me guess, it’s George Bush’s fault. The intellectual hypocracy of the anti-Israel crowd, knows no bounds, does it? So, don’t forget, when Hezbollah sets up and fires a missile from the roof of an apartment building, it is Israels fault and should not eliminate the threat.
We can only hope that after another broken peace treaty, we will stop listening to the endless and meaningless justifications for racism and murder. Just out of curiosity, how many broken treaties does it take before we understand that we are dealing with lying, murderous groups who should not be allowed any freedom to continue their hate and murder campaigns?

As usual, many will shout “peace” while safely esconded tapping on their computer keyboard. When the bully is outside their door they may have a mind-changing carthesis…but I doubt it.
I am very impressed with the citizenry of Israel voicing over 90% support of their governments actions against the threat. I believe if U.S. cities were imperiled by a hostile force just outside our borders we might muster 50% support for action at any price. 25% would still be chanting “peace” and picking flowers to hand the invaders as they entered our country. The remaining 25% would be in meetings to understand how they could politically capitalize on the situation or be making urgent phone calls to the U.N. Jim

Stephen, what other options do they have? Every step backwards (in appeasement) that they take, the militants take one forward (in aggression). By your example, if the Israelis keep letting the militants escalate the game, at what point do they get to stop the game?

The game is over now. Let the cards fall where they may. Israel, government and people, are tired, and want an end to it, one way or the other.

The timing of this was generated by Iran and Syria. Perhaps because they felt that we are engaged in several other theaters. Who really knows? Not me, that’s for certain. But the bottom line is this (IMO): Israel is reacting. This is the way they do business. You kill one of mine. I kill 100 of yours. It works. The eye-for-an-eye thing doesn’t work when you are severely outnumbered.

Bob,
“Just out of curiosity, how many broken treaties does it take before we understand that we are dealing with lying, murderous groups who should not be allowed any freedom to continue their hate and murder campaigns?”

Spoken like a true Native American.

Jim,
The Israelis differ from us in one important respect. I bet Israel does not sell its port security to the United Arab Emirates.

“Just out of curiosity, how many broken treaties does it take before we understand that we are dealing with lying, murderous groups who should not be allowed any freedom to continue their hate and murder campaigns?”

You seem to be covering both groups in this war, and it’s not the two armies that worry me, it’s the human shields they use. Both sides kill, and it’s usually the bystanders. It’s hezbollah that always kills randomly - but given that Israel on average kill 6-10X more, I think they both fail to consider human life in face of their political agendas.

“Israel is reacting. This is the way they do business. You kill one of mine. I kill 100 of yours. It works.”

Yes, they are reacting… but it’s not going to work now anymore than it has in the past. Most people dying in this conflict are civilians - and that always creates lasting hate for one side or the other. They will kill each other indefinitely… because…

“When the bully is outside their door they may have a mind-changing carthesis…but I doubt it.”

This playground is fully of bullies, and none of them want to share. I simply want the other kids of the playground for a while - then let the bullies go at each other’s throats. Diplomacy only works here for very short amount of time.

“As usual, many will shout “peace” while safely esconded tapping on their computer keyboard. “

And this differs from the ones who shout “war”?

Out of Israel:

Israeli spokesmen speak only of small ground crossings into the south and air strikes against several war material trucks crossing in from Syria. However, those ground incursions extend to central and eastern Lebanon as well as the south, targeting Hizballah strongholds and launching sites, and include several cross-border raids into Syria in pursuit of fleeing Hizballah terrorists and for the interception of incoming groups. Weapons cnvoys destined for Hizballah are also being struck on the Syrian side of the border. To conceal the extent of their losses, Hizballah has instructed its people not to hold burials.

GO ISRAEL!!!!!!!

Stephen- Are we certain that this “indiscriminate” bombing is not aimed at known underground bunkers? Some people here are very dramatically painting Israel to be this monster who likes to kill innocent people for fun. How do we know ANYTHING about those casualties other than they are dead? Women and children in that region are well known to be as big a threat as the men…they just try to stay out of camera view. Of course they are going to be hailed as innocent, but we have no idea what they were doing, thinking, or planning or going to do. I’m VERY hesitant to question Israeli intelligence before this all plays out. It is not in their interests at the moment to make their intelligence known to the public. However, if they are bombing dense areas with no discernable military targets therein, I believe they have definately invited more unrest, and they will have to deal with the fallout. I would like to think that Israel is not that stupid, but with hate ultimately driving public sentiments on both sides, I will reserve my judgements on the Israeli military actions until I have the clear benefit of hindsight.

The clear truth is that they are under attack, and now the only way for anyone to “win” is to eliminate Hezbollah. Too many people have already dies to fail at that mission. I hope they continue to threaten the US, because we now have bases within stricking distance, and Israelis on the ground to clean up any mess. There is no room for peace until the question of “what will Israel do if we attack them?” is answered completely and in such a way as to disinterest official governments from taking sides. This has so far been the case. They will still be underhanded, but there is no stopping that without prosperity…and right now, it is not Israel’s responsability to hold hands with their enemies and guide them to the promised land. Arab nations need to step up and be accountable for both what they can, and cannot do.

“GO ISRAEL!!!!!!!”

You seem to be really enjoying this… have you made up any new drinking games for the occasion? I bet ya they have some mean tailgating going on in Jordon!

If you listen to Stephen and some of the rest, this war between Israel and Hezbollah, was a conspirticy between Israel and the US to get hezbollah and hamas to cross the border and kidnap soldiers( there is a difference between kidnapping and being a POW), then Israel can go into Lebanon and take down hezbollah. Wow watch out maybe it is the little green men at Area 51 doing the mindmeld thing.
Never mind that hezbollah is hiding within the regular population and still shooting and firing missles at Israel. As far as destroying a intersection with no hezbollah around, that is possible, but if it is a supply route then you stop the supplies from getting to the terrorist, and the shooting and missles stop.

“As far as destroying a intersection with no hezbollah around, that is possible, but if it is a supply route then you stop the supplies from getting to the terrorist, and the shooting and missles stop.”

yes - but you do it when the intersection is empty.

Tony

I don’t know what ya got goin’, but they do not call it rationale or common sense; maybe naivete. An intersection in enemy territroy. I am trying to shell that intersection so that supply lines are interupted. I am firing from several miles away. Ok, guys ya ready? Here we go. On my signal fire. Ready, opps there goes somebody, we don’t know who. Ok, Ready? oops there goes bicycle and wait there goes two cars. Ok, Ready? Here we go. FIRE! oops, there goes somebody, really gone. Sorry about that. That scenario is what I think you might expect. But the truth is that this is war, and you must take that intersection out to prevent the enemy from resupply of anything. There have been other writings that tend to put this whole situation into the attitude and mindset of a video game. Those are games. This is life and death. Get real those of you who can’t see that.

tomh -

It was hit with a missile from a jet - at peak rush hour. This isn’t life and death - it’s death. It’s war. Some seem to want to cheer it on… I find it the most horrible act from mankind.

Of course, no one is going to stop these people from killing each other, so you also have accept reality as it is, not as you wish it to be. Both sides could decide to live in peace - but that’s not the way they want it to be.

One major issue for us - we’re completely booked up in Iraq, and if this spills over the borders much more, we’re going to be in the middle it and securing the government in Iraq will be impossible, and so will a quick exit. Our American soldiers could end up paying a heavy price if this continues much longer.

One of the best written articles that I have read. You have got it right. Most of the comments are from people who lack understanding of Hezbollah and terrorists in general.

Who’s fault is it that an “innocent” is killed…Israel which dropped the bomb to destroy Hezbollah’s weapons, or the Hezbollah putting the weapons in a populated area, in a house occupied by women and children? Obviously it is Hezbollah’s fault.

I just heard that the Israelis have bombed a Hezbollah bunker and may have killed off the senior leadership. It was 100 feet underground. Hezbollah claims that none of their guys were there and it was just a mosque under construction. Who builds a mosque 100 ft below ground?

Tony,

The empty roads were bombed to prevent Syria from being able to rearm Hezbollah AND to prevent them from taking the kidnapped soldier into Syria or Iran. They have every right to do that. Hezbollah could stop all this in an instant.

Jack, we don’t agree on a lot, but I wonder also who would build a mosque 100 feet underground. Close to it was Hitler, and he was trying to do the same thing, get rid of all the Jews. Maybe it is history repeating itself, now all the leadership of hezbollah has to do is commit suicide, but wait all the liberals will say Israel or US supplied the bullet and the gun and therefore helped pull the trigger.

“The empty roads were bombed to prevent Syria from being able to rearm Hezbollah”

the road wasn’t empty - 12 dead

the road wasn’t empty - 12 dead

Hezbollah could stop all of this in an instant. What don’t you get about that?

Stephen, Tony, David R Reamer, Px8.. I bet all of you would let hezbolla fire rockets off your roofs! Singing kum-by-ya….. We love taxes, and all dictators!!!

“Hezbollah could stop all of this in an instant. What don’t you get about that?”

I think I’ve covered this previously… Of course they could… but they don’t. I don’t get anything about all this - it’s stupid.

nathan -

that was weak… come on, you can do better than that.

BOB-
Hezbollah is responsible for it’s actions, as is Israel, as is Bush. None are entirely responsible, but we can speak to what each does: Hezbollah provoking, Israel overreacting and using it’s needlessly alientation shows of force in a vain attempt to intimidate folks, and Bush having provided no policy alternative.

Bush is responsible for letting Israel take the gloves off, which has allowed Sharon and others like him to pile one belligerent mistake after another, participating in the peace process with obvious bad faith. He doesn’t understand that sometime inaction, stasis, tension, negation, inhibition are necessary parts of successful strategies.

I have no problem with somebody killing the people who dare to rain rockets down on civilians, and the targeted capture and destruction of those who lead this. But the more collateral casualties we see here, the worse off things get. What Democrats are asking for is a dialing down and reconsideration of the response. Rather than play into these bastard hands, we should find some way to both defend Israel, and sidestep the poisoned dagger of Hezbollah’s agenda of destabilizing the legitimate government.

Jim Martin-
And many will shout war from a similar safe position. Those typing peace, at least, will wish for others what they have themselves, rather than inflict on them what they are safe from. I remember how much support Bush had in the Wake of 9/11: over 90%. Regardless of whether you have it in your heart to see us as patriots and fellow Americans, the left is no worse at supporting our country in its time of need than the right

It makes me sick to hear that bullshit knowing what I myself think and believe. It is bitter insult and one we have suffered time and time again from the right, and from the Republican Party. More bitter still is being divided about a threat that heeds no party lines.

Bruce P.-
It always amazes me how broadly people define appeasement. I want nothing of the sort because Hezbollah just wants to destroy Israel. The thing is, they’re not the ones you deal with. If you are handed bastards like Hezbollah, who will not compromise, then you go to the neighbors and other citizens of the country who might not be so close. You negotiate with them, and see if you can’t sweet talk your way into having your new friends cut off Hezbollah at the knee. Hezbollah and other forces can escalate at their pleasure, at least until such time as they are deprived of their support. So the key is, draw the lines you have to, negotiate with your enemies potential rivals, and then relieve your enemy of the ability to escalate further, or maintain their ability to fight.

Reaction without thought, without plan, will only end up playing to the benefit of those who know how to provoke others towards their ends. Let’s not be the puppets of these sick bastards, let’s be the ones cutting Hezbollah’s strings.

tomh-
We should be more cautious. Do we want Syria involved in this war? Get Syria involved, and this becomes an all new kind of mess, with Israel vulnerable to attacks from the side. I’m sure they can take care of themselves, but the bloodshed that this rather well armed nation could inflict would be devastating to the country, and perhaps require our assistance. Get us involved, and that complicates things, or rather it simplifies them in a way we are in no shape to handle, short of conscriptions.

As for hitting an intersection, I’d think the place to really hit would be far outside of town. You don’t need to cut off the water at the end of the hose if you close off the valve at the start of it. Also, if you’re firing into a city, one intersection is unlikely to be sufficient to cut off supplies. If they’re small enough, you could run them through the buildings themselves. If larger, the other streets and roads could serve just as well. This is game, life and death as it is, and the other side is very competitive. That’s the real world: just being tough and taking every shot will not win the war.

RH-
If Hezbollah puts women and children in danger, why not frustrate their aims by not chunking bombs on them. Put a few special forces down on them instead. If you can’t manage a humane war and keep the moral high ground from an jet fighter, you do things another way.

Nathan-
It’s a brave thing to take such long odds on a losing bet.

Kevin 23-
Is there any distinction between innocent and guilty in your view? I mean, if a few innocent people die unintentionally in the course of a focused military response, or general war, that’s one thing, but you seem to be implying an altogether different definition of things, one which threatens to put this whole affair into the abyss.

The nightmarish scenario is that there are people in charge of the military response who want an escalation, another war to show the futility of messing with Israel. All well and fine if it happens by accident, but if done intentionally, it’s no smarter than any war started on purpose. How many people throughout history have started wars to their own regret? How many rulers have been told they would destroy a great empire if they started a war, only to find out it was their own. Wars are not certain affairs, even when one side has a huge technical and manpower advantage.

The thing to do with Hezbollah isn’t necessarily put them to the sword down to the last man. No, what you do is destroy the force, like Von Clausewitz would say: cut off supplies, cut off reinforcements, cut off the aid of allies, destroy the leadership, destroy the popular support. Ultimately, we can settle for making Hezbollah incapable of continuing its provocation for one reason or another. I think we start there, with some kind of UN or third party brokered cease fire, coupled with a deliberate effort at ending Hezbollah’s days as a force in Lebanese politics. I’m not sure what that might exactly involve, but it starts with getting the situation secure.

KT-
If you listen to me, you would know I have no truck with the conspiracy crap. I just think Hezbollah’s goading Israel into destabilizing Lebanon, and the fools in charge there are taking the bait.

I think destroying Hezbollah will be much easier if there is some kind of cease fire enforced. The relative calm and the penetration of independent forces into the country will allow clearer intelligence, more use of ground forces, and other benefits. We should let them cut their own throats, not aid them in cutting ours.

As far as destablizing the Lebanese government goes, that would only become a serious problem if Israel’s campaign caused the Lebanese population at large to embrace Hezbollah, which would in turn permit Hezbollah to marginalize and/or drive out the native Lebanese authorities.

I see no indication that this is happening. In fact, the opposite is true.

The Lebanese know damn well that Hezbollah is a tool of Syria and Iran which doesn’t have Lebanon’s interests at heart, and the last thing they want is to either have another Syrian OR Israeli occupation of their country.

Their government is already VERY unstable. But the reason for this is the lingering influence of Syrian intimidation after the so-called “Cedar Revolution.”

Of course they’re unhappy at being caught in the middle once again, and there’s no love for Israel being generated here. But neither is any of this raising Hezbollah’s prestige—quite the contrary.

From Israel’s point of view, a weak and ineffectual Lebanese government, one that doesn’t even adminster the southern half of the country, is worse than no government at all.

A moderate Lebanese government that talks peace (and no doubt sincerely wants peace) ends up providing diplomatic and rhetorical cover to the radical elements that are the de-facto rulers of southern Lebanon.

This is NOT a tolerable situation for Israel, just like it wouldn’t be for any nation. And it’s not a tolerable situation for Lebanon either. Israel is actually doing Lebanon a huge favor here.

Stephen,
Well said.

I keep wondering how much of the current situation was planned by one or both sides.

In June, a shell killed 7 innocent Palestinians at a beach. Israel apologized, then later denied responsibility for the explosion.

Hamas kidnapped a soldier, supposedly in retaliation.

Israel responded by destroying a power plant in Gaza, the only source of power for that area.

Seeing this, Hezbollah kidnapped two soldiers, and killed several others. They must have known this would provoke a severe response. But how far did this decision go outside of the immediate group of perpetrators?

Israel responded with a massive bombing campaign, and Hezbollah launched missiles at civilian targets.

The timing of this outbreak might have been unpredictable, but the strategies of each side have probably been in place for years.

Israel will use conventional military superiority to conduct a short, intense, and very bloody 3GW attack.

Hezbollah will use 4GW and bide its time.

I think it is very interesting that the West Bank is relatively quiet. Does this mean The Wall works?

Should Israel consider building walls around its northern borders and around Gaza?

Stephen D.

Syria is involved as well as Iran.

Israel has been entering Syria to destroy supplies enroute to Hizbollah. They also have chased some Hizbollah terrorists into Syria and killed them there.

For the record Iran does nothing without Ras Putin’s approval.

Putin to Binejab (sic) to Noballoh (sic)

Bush is responsible for letting Israel take the gloves off, which has allowed Sharon and others like him to pile one belligerent mistake after another, participating in the peace process with obvious bad faith. He doesn’t understand that sometime inaction, stasis, tension, negation, inhibition are necessary parts of successful strategies.

What an astoundingly delusional comment. Stasis? We’ve had a “peace process” going on for years upon years now under Sharon, Arafat, Clinton and Bush. And where has it led? Who has operated in bad faith here?

It’s led to Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon, Gaza and the West Bank. It led to Israel offering Palestine an independent homeland with a capital in Jerusalem.

What was Palestine’s response to the Clinton-engineered offer? A second intifida. What has been Hezbollah’s response to Israel’s withdrawal from Lebanaon? Rockets, cross-border kidnapping, and terrorism.

Not even Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity could have come up with something more damning than the so-called Democratic solution: “sometimes inaction, stasis, tension, negation, inhibition are necessary parts of successful strategies.”

Inaction. Stasis. Tension. Negation. Inhibition. Those could have been bumper stickers for John Kerry.

Ignore the fact that while your side is engaged in inaction, stasis, tension, negation and inhibition, the other side is actively killing you and planning to do it again.

Inaction, stasis, tension, negation and inhibition indeed! Now I remember why (on the national ticket at least) I no longer vote Democratic.

If you are handed bastards like Hezbollah, who will not compromise, then you go to the neighbors and other citizens of the country who might not be so close. You negotiate with them, and see if you can’t sweet talk your way into having your new friends cut off Hezbollah at the knee.

Sweet talking? Are you freaking kidding? The Lebanese are hostages in their own country, hostages to Syria and Iran with Hezbollah as their prison-guards. What happened to Rafik Hariri? He was assasinated by Syrian agents? What happens, then, when despite all your high-minded Democratic sweet-talking, your potential allies are all murdered?

Well, even more sweet-talking is in order, apparently.

While we’re at it, maybe if we sweet-talked the Tibetans, they’d drive out the Chinese occupiers.

Maybe if we sweet-talked villagers in the Sudan, they’d be free of genocide. And of course we all remember how we defeated Germany by sweet-talking the French, Poles, Russians and concentration camp victims.

Stephen-

In regards to the question of making a distinction between guilty and innocent, I really do think there is a difference. But there is no clear cut distinction in these nations between an ordinary person, and a person who may explode or be carrying an explosive. The videos of the Gazan women carrying munitions really hit home for me … I can really sense the struggle when I see the gritty details and compare this to my relatively comfortable existance.

So we are left with very murky waters. On one hand, most civilians do nothing to aid terrorism. But nobody seems to do anything to stop it either. I am not in the position to judge the entrenchment that violence has in the people’s lives, but there is definately a real willingness to accept a certain level of inherently dangerous activity. I know if I thought there was a group next door who was stockpiling rocket propelled granades, I’d either move away or I’d rally support against them to drive them out. Thank god I am not in the position to make that kind of decision, but it is difficult to understand the victim mentality of a person who allows known terrorists to pray beside them, and to conduct questionable activities in the same neighborhood that their kids play in.

By far the biggest thing that bothers me about the current critisisms of Israeli aggression, and even that of American actions in Iraq, is when people critisize the soldier on the ground for not being more discriminating, or more patient, or anything other than scared shittless and looking out for number one. So in that sense, I believe that the military necessarily opperates under different rules than a police force would. But enemies should know this, and do everything they can to prevent a military conflict.

I definately do not think that killing innocent people is justified by the military not wanting to take any chances, but there is definately a certain expectation level that there will be casualties. Like I said before, hindsight is 20-20, and everyone needs to temper their actions knowing they will eventually have to answer for any attrocity that occurs, but if asked right if Israel should be using police tactics or military tactics, I say military. That being said, there are definately risks involved in going to war where there is at least some alternative. But I’d take the risk at the moment, because moral high ground doesn’t come to Israel very often, and they are legitimately concerned about security.

I agree about your advocation for more special opps and similar tactics. However, I can’t let myself second guess those with much more info than I have. But hopefully we will know very soon whether or not this “mosque” really held Hezbollah officials or not, for example. I share your concern for what you called the “nightmarish scenario”. One can always fear the worst about military leaders, but you have to trust the training and that the soldiers believe in their cause. I can’t even begin to think about what could be in store were the conspiracy theories true. The US should be in close communication with Israel and not let them go beyond the focussed mission they’ve stated.

At the end of the violence, if there is one, Israle needs to help them rebuild the cities. They can’t leave the residents of these war torn communities high and dry. That they didn’t stand up to those with guns should not warrent the punishment of having to pick up the pieces alone. Those people are the hope in the days following violence. If they win them over, they’ve won overall. If not, they will fight another day.

This whole argument can be put in perspective very easily.
If Hezbollah or Hamas disarmed hostilities would end. If Israel disarmed they would be annihilated

Keith,
Did you know there was a civil war in Lebanon, one that last 15 years? It pitted a kaleidoscope of militias against one another: Christians, Sunnis, Shias, Druze, and more. Not everyone in Lebanon defines themselves according to their relationship with Israel.

It is not a coincidence that the Hezbollah refused to disarm in accordance with Resolution 1559. Historically, the Shias have been at the bottom of the Lebanese food chain. The Hezbollah represents an combination of a variety of militias from the early 1980’s, and this group has defended the relatively weak Shias against the other factions in Lebanon, as well as against the Israeli invasion.

At some point, the Shias of southern Lebanon and southern Beirut will need to be integrated into the national life of Lebanon. Hezbollah (and Amal) were well on the way when they won seats in a democratic election.

If it is not Hezbollah, it will be a nearly identical group. As you may have noticed, no one in the world likes the Israelis, and only the US will defend their actions, even when the action is a response to provocations by Hezbollah.

The question is how to encourage this integration of a Shia political entity into Lebanese government, and how to create a situation in which Israel can exist in peace.

Personally, I believe they should become a secular state.

But that will not happen. A more practical solution would be to build a wall around the country, like the one enclosing the West Bank. It will keep the neighbors away from Israel, and Israel penned away from the rest of the world.

phx8
“If it is not Hezbollah, it will be a nearly identical group. As you may have noticed, no one in the world likes the Israelis, and only the US will defend their actions, even when the action is a response to provocations by Hezbollah”

What different does it make if everyone in the world hates Israel. Why do you think Israel is hated. Could it be 40 years of UN and Islamic propaganda. People hat Israel because they believe lies.

Israel has been forced to be at war fo 60 years. Everytime they give concessions it comes back to bite themselves in the ass.

If you ask me it is past the point where they should tell the “Palestians” in the West Bank and Gaza to go home to Jordan.

You and the rest of the moral relativists have to get out of your rut and remember that Israel like any other Sovereign nation has a right to defend itself.

If the terrorists would stop attacking Israel would not have to retaliate.

phx8,

You have a point about this being 4th generation warfare, but what do you propose Israel do? Should they just give Hezbollah a free pass to murder Israeli citizens because they violate the rules of war and fire from residential neighborhoods?

1LT B, both Israel and the US (and Lebanon) should be requesting an international force on the ground in Southern Lebanon with the mission — and the ability — to disarm Hezbollah and secure the border with Israel. Right now.

Long term, it’d also help if our military focused more on training and equipping to win the 4GW conflicts were fighting now and will soon fight in Lebanon than on a war with China that’ll never happen.

There is, however, a major difference between a democratic state and a state with democratic elections. Fair elections are a necessary, NOT SUFFICIENT, component of democracy. Actually, several ingredients must be present in order for a country to be recognized as a democracy. Here’s one: a democratic state has a monopoly on the use of force within its borders.

Wow, Dr. P! A red columnist who understands the situation on the ground in Iraq. That’s rare.

Tomh,

How do you know there were no terrorists near that intersection?

Let me answer for you to save you some time and anti-semitic pandering. You don’t know.

And we don’t know if there were terrorist near that intersection either. What we *do* know is that among civilians killed, there’s women and kids. Many. All were terrorists? All were standing near terrorists?
What’s your kids per terrorists killed ratio limit?

“Those lobs that Hezbollah throws into Israel have been killing, maiming and hurting far more that what Israel is doing”.

Oh dear god tomh.

Do you ever get the facts right?

Please switch off Fox and try to get your information from some reliable sources, watch the extent to which they disagree, or agree and be wary of inadequacies with their reporting (don’t take anything for granted). With a variety of news and information sources you will be able to get a clearer picture of events in the Lebanon. Use google news, you have no excuse for being so woefully uninformed.

Israeli casualties are no more that 24 at this stage, the number of dead Lebanese civilians is estimated at 300, the number of dead Palestinians is over a hundred.

Lebanese infrastructure is destroyed, no airport, bombs have destroyed bridges, roads, a hospital, no one is safe there.

Israel is among the most militarily advanced nations in the world. You name it they probably have it. Laser guided missiles - inc. Patriot Missiles - and the best in US hardware, tanks, helicopters, f16s.

Hezbollah have a few rockets capable of reaching into Israel but they are incapable of doing much damage (as compared to the Israeli eqivalent) so Israeli casualties are very small by comparison.

Hezbollah terrorists are awful and their actions are unforgivable but look at what Israel as done. It’s no angel. It has just destroyed Lebanon (with the intention of “setting Lebanon back 20 years”)and killed over 300 civilians, injured many others and displaced half a million people…a humanitarian crisis which began over two kidnapped soldiers. How many Lebanese are in Israeli prisons?

Oh boohoo, let’s take out our pity blankets and cry a river for the hezbollah, because the UN and everybody else is against them for starting this with the kidnapping. A TERRORIST IS A TERRORIST IS A TERRORIST. A wolf in sheeps clothing does not make one a sheep. Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, hamas is a terrorist, ARAFT was a terrorist, now just a dead terrorist.
As far as the soldiers shooting innocent civilians unfortunately it happens, and if you have never been shot at then, you don’t know how it is. You get tunnel vision and see mainly what is just in front of you, your heart races, everything is heighten. You are there to do a job, but your main job according to your mind is to protect yourself.
If we listen to all the liberal, peace loving people here, Israel should stop shelling, move back to their border and open them, and when hezbollah comes in do nothing. Let them do their suicide bombs, lob missiles, and kidnap anyone they want. Grow up and take off the rose color glasses.

A very good read for those who want to understand the issues and past of this region.

One interesting sentence in all of this history:

“The Husseini family killed both Jews and members of Palestinian Arab families opposed to their hegemony. The Yishuv (Jewish community) responded with both defensive measures, and with random terror and bombings of Arab civilian targets, perpetrated by the Irgun (Irgun Tsvai Leumi or “Etsel,”).”

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm

“The existence of Israel has continued too long. We welcome the Israeli aggression. We welcome the battle we have long awaited. The peak hour has come. The battle has come in which we shall destroy Israel.”

No, not Nasrallah. That is from a 1967 Radio Cairo broadcast.

Yet there are those that are blaming this on the present administration. Funny stuff.

What is terrorism?

Can any of you tell me the difference between Hezbollah capturing an Israeli soldier and Israel imprisoning a civilian? For those who use logic rather than propaganda as a basis of argument, there really is scant difference.

Can any of you tell me the difference between Israel bombing civilians and appropriating occupied land and Hizbollah sending a rocket into Israel? Again, logically there is no difference.

My point is that when it becomes an official policy of a government, splinter group, rebel group, etc. to target civilians you have terror. Argentina in the ’70s. Guatamala in the ’80s. That’s why there are international laws on the conduct of war - many of these the USA initiated and signed to after WWWI and then after WWWII to criminalize Nazi & Japanese tactics.

So tell me, what is the difference then between Israel and Hizbollah when they target civilians in this war? Why is one a terrorist and the other innocent?

There is no difference now between Israel and Hizbollah in their tactics. so if you call one a terrorist, then you have logically labeled the other the same.

This is a good run down of Hezbollah activity IN AMERICA. They are more than a local Israeli problem.

The republicans are so up to their ears in making excuses for the failed invasion and occupational quagmire in Iraq

…the only thing they can do now is promote anything that has to do with military combat.

…the only reason why the Israeli military use of force is condoned by the republicans is because the republicans are already well versed in making excuses for military actions as a solution.

…the republicans can’t take the high road and try and help Israel and Palestine achieve any cease fire or truce (albeit temporary at best) is because of the low standard republicans have towards the concept of diplomacy

Simply put,

the republicans are war-happy.

KT,

If we listen to all the liberal, peace loving people here, Israel should stop shelling,

Yep.

move back to their border and open them, and when hezbollah comes in do nothing. Let them do their suicide bombs, lob missiles, and kidnap anyone they want.

Nope. Show me one “liberal peace loving people” post saying that!

Grow up and take off the rose color glasses.

One should take *on* his glasses and read (no, not re-read) some posts before trying to put his words in others mouths.

Stephen,

I can’t really disagree with anything you said (much to my chagrin). Other than to say that I do not believe this conflict will ever end. The most frustrating part for me is that the basis of this conflict goes alllllll the way back to a man name Abraham. We are all cousins of some sort. It’s just sad, that’s all. I hate to sound like some card-carrying liberal pansy, but why can’t we all just get along?

I guess if I had to say “this is the most realistic end to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict”, I would bet it would have to be the cancellation of Israeli statehood. Why? Because we will never be able to remove islam from the earth (and we shouldn’t). If there is one muslim alive, the threat of this conflict survives.

KT, by the way:

You get tunnel vision and see mainly what is just in front of you, your heart races, everything is heighten. You are there to do a job, but your main job according to your mind is to protect yourself.

So does civilians trapped in a conflict. The sole difference between soldiers and civilians is the former have a weapon, while the later usually don’t.

It’s funny how the debate on this thread seems to be simple…

…is military use of force something Americans should condone.

You don’t have to be a peace-loving left-wing liberal hippie baby boomer to know that military action is not the first choice.

What’s not being taken into consideration are the why diplomatic relations have ceased.

It’s easy for anyone support a decision for military use of force.

It’s hard to support continued diplomatic relationships with neighboring countries.

Israel and Palestine are at constant conflict.

Their actions in kidnapping soldiers/military use of force is the by-product of failed diplomatic relations.

It seems many here at the republican blog believe that war is an example of problem solving.

You’re either fighting a battle of swords or

you’re fighting a battle of wits.

War if for those who fight without wits and

peace is for those without swords.

Benji,

How would you solve the conflict in the short-term, and in the long-term?

Hezbollah has been able to maintain its base of operations in Lebanon amongst the civilian population because they support Hezbollah. No insurgent group can survive in an area without the support of the local residents.
Hezbollah is based in residential areas making the targeting of those areas necessary to kill the terrorists. They’ve actually made it easier to destroy them because no matter how many terrorists you kill, if you don’t destroy their support infrastructure they will continue to operate.
The people criticizing Israel’s conduct of this war have no understanding of insurgency. Israel obviously understands it very well and have decided that enough is enough.
The statement that Israel is targeting more than just Hezbollah is probably correct. I doubt that they are the only jihadists operating in Lebanon.

traveller -

Think of this like an American ghetto with gang-activity. You know your neighbors are probably involved with some bad stuff, but if you confront them about it - you or someone in your family dies. Trying to tie in the citizens of Lebanon with support for Hezbollah is like tying people who live in the slums with supporting the drug trade.

Watch CITY OF GOD sometime, and then tell me how many people living in southern Lebanon support Hezbollah. (I know the movie is Brazillian, but just connect the dots.)

Acetracy,

More moral relativism. You really have no concept of what is going on over there.

You really can’t tell the difference between a sovereign state jailing a civilian for a crime and terroists coming over the border and kidnapping 2 soldiers.

CNN did a report the other day with, I believe it was Nick Roberts, getting a tour of Beirut with a Hezbollah “spokesman”. He showed him one of the buildings that was blown up and said lots of civilians lived there. When the reporter asked how many casualties there were, the spokesman said luckily none they evacuted before the bombing. LUCK HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. The Israelis droped thousands of leaflets telling the civilian population to leave because the area was going to be bombed.

If you can’t see the difference between that and lobbing rockets (that you have no idea what they are going to hit), I really feel sorry for you.

This has been the MO for Israel’s enemies for 60 years. Attack Israel and then when Israel retaliates go to the international community and scream about the response.

Keith -

Both sides are involved in war mongering… but if you want to go back in time, how do you reconcile this:

“The Husseini family killed both Jews and members of Palestinian Arab families opposed to their hegemony. The Yishuv (Jewish community) responded with both defensive measures, and with random terror and bombings of Arab civilian targets, perpetrated by the Irgun (Irgun Tsvai Leumi or “Etsel,”).”

How long do we justify revenge? How long do we support either side in a war where mostly civilians die?

Philippe-

“One should take *on* his glasses and read (no, not re-read) some posts before trying to put his words in others mouths.”

Isn’t that the pot calling the kettle black? On other threads, you’ve specifically done this to me and others, then when it gets done back to you, you whine and cry about how unfair it is.

I guarantee you that if you were on the ground in Lebenon, Gaza, Iraq, etc…you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between a civilian and a terrorist. And there is all different shades of gray to deal with as well. You want to really tell me that you would never make a mistake? Remember that you are in constant fear of death, and you, unlike the enemy, are wearing a uniform which to them, resembles a big target.

I lost track of how many times I’ve asked you to respond, but you never do. But you do love taking people’s words out of context, and whining about the same hapenning to you. Indecision and hypocracy at its best. And next time you go on and on about the “innocent” people in Lebenon, at least disclaim it by saying they are the only casualties in this war who had a fighting chance to escape and live, albeit somewhere else temerarily.

Kevin23,

Isn’t that the pot calling the kettle black? On other threads, you’ve specifically done this to me and others, then when it gets done back to you, you whine and cry about how unfair it is.

Check my response on that thread, where I just concede that I’ve wrongly put the word “every” in your mouth in place of “most”.

I guarantee you that if you were on the ground in Lebenon, Gaza, Iraq, etc…you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between a civilian and a terrorist.

Agreed. So, how Israeli could magically do it when bombing Lebanon areas?
You can’t have both way.

You want to really tell me that you would never make a mistake?

I’m french. Jump to your favorite conclusion yourself. All are valid.
;-)

And next time you go on and on about the “innocent” people in Lebenon, at least disclaim it by saying they are the only casualties in this war who had a fighting chance to escape and live, albeit somewhere else temerarily.

Hum, are you saying that, for example, Haifa (spel?) israelis civilians didn’t have any chance to escape and live, only lebanese? You kidding, right?

Acetracy-

So many holes in your logic that it would take all morning to point them all out. When you build arguments, you must account for every brick. Not just make some random analogy and universally apply the rule. And where do you get off saying that Israel is “targetting” civilians. First, you have no idea how to tell a civilian v. a terrorist (not even the military can tell most times…and they have the intel). Second, you have no idea what they are targetting, whether they are even hitting what they aimed at, or if there is some hidden target like a bunker that does not meet the eye when watching on TV from 6000 miles away. You don’t know any of the things which are necessary premises to your statements. So, your statements demonizing Israel are meaningless.

But I would really love to know why you sincerely seem to believe that Israel is no better than Hezbollah. I think it is insanity to tell you the truth. But I can’t be certain. You seem to only be interested in the aftermath. Do you not realize that Hezbollah is carefully putting as many civilians at risk as possible WHILE stepping up attacks to make it impossible for Israel to withdraw? In other words, it is not Israel targetting civilians as Hezbollah using them as sheilds. Sad state of affairs to be sure, but Israel are NOT terrorists. The two ARE different. The entire world seems to know the distinction, but you don’t? Hint: one wears a uniform, one doesn’t. Finally, Israel is responding to the THREAT…not directly retaliating for the kidnappings and bombings. The threat is real.

Philippe-

“So, how Israeli could magically do it when bombing Lebanon areas?”

They aren’t…they drop leaflets and warn citizens to evacuate…then they go after military targets. Period. They know that they are not magical…and you can’t expect them to be. But you also can’t expect them to roll over and die either.

“Hum, are you saying that, for example, Haifa (spel?) israelis civilians didn’t have any chance to escape and live, only lebanese?”

That’s amazing information. I had no idea that Hezbollah sent warnings before they unleashed the rockets. I’m pretty sure the Israeli warship got a morse signal of impending missile just before it exploded too right? What on earth are you talking about? How were Israelis supposed to know Hezbollah had advanced Iranian rockets and would launch them at a city never before hit by one? You’ve really got me stumped. Unless you believe the Israeli citizens assumed the risk by settling the land to begin with (which is about the most extreme position to take), you are defeating your own point.

“a fighting chance to escape and live”

You’re suggesting that the people who are dying in Lebanon choose to die because thet would not leave? Same for the people in New Orleans who chose not to leave? I’m guessing both have similar demographics - poor. Rich people lock the doors, grab their passports and leave - poor people have no means to leave and nowhere to go.

I completely agree that fighting terrorists in the middle of civillians is a huge problem. You can easily make mistakes and taking precations can get you killed.

My philoshopy is this: get ‘em Burger Kings! People with homes and good lives don’t tend to blow themselves up for whacko causes. People, for the most people just want to live their lives, raise families and die of old age.

Tony-

A warning is a warning is a warning. Ok? Can we agree on that? Because that is all I am saying. No more. Everything else is circumstance. But I know I would get the hell out of dodge if my neighbors were provoking a world power from next door.

Tony,

What is the context for that quote? When was it said, who said it?

“So, how Israeli could magically do it when bombing Lebanon areas?”

They aren’t…they drop leaflets and warn citizens to evacuate…then they go after military targets. Period.

So its sorting out terrorists from plain civilians by leaflets. Hum. How a F16 drop leaflet over a car they are about to fire at the next seconds?
What about the civilians who can’t leave? Turn into terrorists?

That’s amazing information. I had no idea that Hezbollah sent warnings before they unleashed the rockets.

Damn, I should have explicitly write “the second day of conflict”, here what I get for not. Anyway, it take no god power (pun untended) to know after the first rockets on Haifa that in next days others will eventually come.

How were Israelis supposed to know Hezbollah had advanced Iranian rockets and would launch them at a city never before hit by one?

After the first day of war, they can’t ignore it anymore. Since day two, israelis in north Israel have as much chance to evacuate as lebanese in south Lebanon. Well, except that Israel infrastructure is not destroyed, contrary to Lebanon one.
But, yeah, who need pratical roads and bridges while fleeing combat zone…

Tony,

These people are not killing people because they are poor. They are doing it because they are fanatics.

The people who flew jets into the towers and the pentagon were upper middle class.

Keith,

I googled;

Husseini family killed both Jews and members of Palestinian Arab families opposed to their hegemony.

The first three responses had the quote.

Phillipe

Where to start. Your logic is so flawed, as to border on the irrational.

The Israelis are dropping leaflets 24 hours before bombings. They are also calling every home with a recorded message.

Hezbollah just shoots rockets that it has no idea whare they will land.

Israel also does not store military equipment and ordnance in neighborhoods and next to hospitals, schools and temples.

“So its sorting out terrorists from plain civilians by leaflets. Hum. How a F16 drop leaflet over a car they are about to fire at the next seconds?
What about the civilians who can’t leave? Turn into terrorists?”

You are not only getting facts wrong (it was not mere seconds of warning…more like days!), but AGAIN you are putting words in my mouth. I’ll keep it simple for you. THEY HAD WARNING!!! And noone said they are terrorists…only that they had warning! Is that simple enough?

And the mere fact that, “on the second day” (mind you this is AFTER they’ve committed an act of war) Israelis had notice of danger does not mean they knew WHERE these rockets would land. At least Israel has targets. Hezbollah doesn’t care…they just want to provole and kill by randomly firing at Israeli territory. Unless they evacuate the whole territory, no one is safe unless in a bomb shelter. In other words, they fall without any meaningful warning other than that other rockets have fallen in parts of N. Israel too. That’s a whole different type of threat Philippe…NOT the same.

Next.

Tony

We are going back to 1936 and talking about the Husseini family that was supported by Hitler because they were fighting the British.

How far off topic do you need to get in order to make a point.

Israel wasn’t a state yet.

abhcoide

The monitor you use to see what tv I watch needs repaired. I don’t get my news from Fox. But, you can still keep lobing those barbs and mis-aimed shots. They don’t effect or affect anybody.

American Pundit,

International peacekeepers sound like a good idea, but where will they come from? If America sends any, the terrorist will just start shooting us long enough for the high minded peaceloving folks to say that we’ve lost too many soldiers and that we need to withdraw. Israel will trust peacekeepers from Muslim nations the same way Bosnian Muslims trusted Russian peacekeepers in Bosnia. Muslims won’t trust European peacekeepers for being Western “Crusaders.” If China sent over peacekeepers, they’d probably blow away a whole village for one Chinese soldier being killed. Not that China would send anybody anyway, nor would most other nations.

Furthermore, Israel recognizes that all peacekeepers will do is keep them from finishing off the Hezbollah leadership and infastructure and allow the terrorist time to regroup and lick their wounds. Stonewall Jackson talked about “keeping up the skeer” ie constantly pursueing a retreating enemy and never giving him time to regroup so as to ensure his complete defeat. This is exactly what Israel will do now.

Acetracy,

That post of yours is so idiotic I’m not even going to belittle myself and try to argue with it as you wouldn’t even listen. You’re head’s either so far in the sand or up your fifth point of contact that I doubt you could see any element of truth or sense if it hit you at the speed of sound.

benji,

A very witty and nice sentiment. Here’s another: Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me. Maybe the Israelis should just try singing to the insurgents or reading them romantic poetry. Hell, the terrorists might just die from laughter and prove you right.

You should watch “A Few Good Men” and take notes when Jack Nicholson gives his little speech about walls being defended by men with guns. The fact that he’s the villian of this little drama doesn’t invalidate what he says. It has been a recognized fact from history that being prepared for war is a good way to prevent it. A Roman historian whose name escapes me said “He who desires peace should prepare for war.” Not much has changed, and pretty little platitudes won’t change it now.

Why is it in the mindset of the leftists, liberals, europeans, et.at., that must respond to a thunderstorm as Katrina, or a terrorist as part of a government instead of a criminal, and well, you get the idea. To those people, they never see things straight and simple, it’s always their superior interigence that see through things as a prism.

If you cannot support Israel now, we will all know if you are anti-Israeli on all occasions. We must remember that it was Hezb Allah that attacked first. Hezb Allah is funded by Syria and Iran, so they share the blame. The Lebanese gov’t failed to disarm Hezb Allah and the UN failed, as usual, to enforce it.

Let’s not divorce force from wit here. If you expend a great deal of force, but achieve nothing, you’ve handed the enemy a win in terms of the other opportunities you passed up, and the resources you spent in the process of your attack.

The key is to find what keeps the enemy forces able to sustain the fight and destroy that, by whatever means are appropriate. Peace can be the absence of the ability to use force, or it can simply be the unwillingness to use it. People may have a greater interest in peace, financially, political, socially, religiously, etc. Or they may know that the other side has them in a strategic hold which either negates an advantage they have, or puts them in a vulnerable position.

Regardless, the notion of working towards peace being the unmanly action is just pure bullshit. We’re not asking that Israel let Hezbollah win. We’re asking for moderation in their actions. That moderation served them well in the Gulf War, where it meant that Saddam Hussein’s bid to draw them into the conflict and break up the coalition was a failure.

We want them to focus more on Hezbollah, less on Lebanon. None of this guilt by association crap.

Earlier, Mr P asked about bargaining with the non-Hezbollah forces. He implies that I’m simply being naive about the whole thing, calling Lebanon a prison, and Hezbollah it’s guards.

Well he should consider a few things. During WWII, there were many native partisan groups going around committing acts of guerilla warfare on the Germans. Taking that approach, their harrassment was useful to us, in that it occupied their time, their effort, and their resources in doing things that weren’t useful to them. He also forgets Afghanistan, where the Taliban was essentially overthrown by our client warlords. If we had just used our own soldiers to surround the escape routes at Tora Bora at the end, we could have ended Al Qaeda and the Taliban right then and there.

It’s always more useful to have somebody working for you that the people in country are willing to cooperate with, or who can use their knowledge to your benefit.

If we were to go to war with China, it might be to our advantage to encourage uprisings and unrest within the country, to encourage dissenting political groups within the country to undercut their Communist masters.

The Red Column here is too quick to lump people together, to apply the label of Islamofascism to the Middle East, and ignore the important distinctions that can be used to generate such strategical advantages.

In the case of the Lebanese people, we have potential informants, counterinsurgents, political rivals and the like who we can support, and in turn be supported by.

It’s no different than using wedge issues to win elections. Find the weaknesses in support, supplies and motivation for our enemies, and exploit them. War isn’t all action. A lot of it is preparing and thinking out your action. War is not merely be about the spectacular use of force.

1LT B-
The problem with Nicholson’s character is that he justifies all kinds of illegal actions in the name of standing on that wall, as if he is privileged by his defense of this country to follow just those rules he thinks are right.

War can sometimes make one feel more righteous than one really is, everything founded upon the opposition of the enemy. The unfortunate fact remains, though, that merely being opposed to an enemy that you think is wrong doesn’t guarantee the appropriateness or wisdom of what is done in the name of that fight. We shouldn’t be so boxed in with our thinking.

It’s time for the GOP and Israel to stop thinking of this in terms of force, and start looking at things in terms of how to bring the right outcome. I doubt songs around the campfire will be the strategy there, but I also doubt that the cavilier use of heavy force will be that either.

“These people are not killing people because they are poor. They are doing it because they are fanatics.

The people who flew jets into the towers and the pentagon were upper middle class.”

I never said fanatisism was only practiced by the poor - but it is caused by the suffering of the poor.

“We are going back to 1936 and talking about the Husseini family that was supported by Hitler because they were fighting the British.

How far off topic do you need to get in order to make a point.

Israel wasn’t a state yet.”

Off topic? Sorry, didn’t know history had an expiration date. This is where the hatred started (actually, it started around 1911…) This should give you sense that there has been brutality and terrorism on both sides - and both sides will continue. You have to understand the roots of a problem to find a solution that works. Blindly killing terrosists without an understanding of what made them a terrorist will always results in more terrorists.

I don’t want to love or hug a terrorist - I want them to go away. I want their philosophies and practices to go away.

Stephen,

You make a point about bringing about the right outcome, but the problem is not Israel and the GOP. Its Hezbollah, Hamas, and their sponsors in Syria and Iran. Until they are willing to concede Israel’s right to exist, this whole debate is academic only in its nature. Part of any plan for long term peace should include guarantees from the world, particuarly the West, to rebuild Palestinian infastructure. If they can become reasonably prosperous and be given something other than the death of Israelis to live and die for, the terrorist movements will probably die out. Someone with a wife and kids and a job has something to live for and is less likely to become a terrorist than someone starving, unemployed, and homeless. In the end, the world, to include the Arab world that uses the Palestinians as pawns and has done nothing to help them for 50 years despite their oil wealth, needs to offer the Palestinians something other than the death of Israel to live and die for.

Tony,

Again wonderful sentiments but we live in the real world. To the islamists there is only one outcome, the destruction of Israel and thenthe rest of the west. This is what they believe in and everything else is just an act. They play the propaganda war better than anybody.

Have you any idea why after 40 years people are still liveing in “refugee camps” in the West Bank and Gaza. It’s not Israel’s fault it is their own leaders. They want to keep them down so they can point to them and say look what the world has done to these poor people. Some of the richest countries in the world are supposedly on their side, but yet they do nothing to help them. Why. Because they don’t care about them.

Actually terrorist attacks against Jewish settlers started in the 19th century.

ok, lets compile our arguments:

A) Kick the shit out of H&H with carpet bombing

B) Attack H&H while attempting to avoid civ casualties

C) Set up a working infastructure while Spec Ops eliminates terrorists on the Ground

D) set up a working infastructure without destroying terrorists, in hopes that they will become so hopped up on Starbucks that they wont care anymore.

I’m all for bombing the shit out of Hezbollah for another couple of days to get the major stuff destroyed, then the UN as a group can rebuild Lebanon, and install a working infastructre, that brings an end to the poverty and destitution that helps foster the terrorism.

Palestine- Hamas is the major party, and if they want to recieve international aid, and not get bombed, needs to accede to a thourough simultaeous serch and dismantling of all of the militant headquarters in the country. Then they can start acting like a working government, with international aid, and no shelling by Israel and no terrorist acts against Israel.

Dr. Politico:

Nice for you and me to be on the same side for a change.

Hezbollah built a huge armament capability. They say it has about 10,000 - 14,000 rockets. Some of their rocket launchers can reach all the way to Tel Aviv. Why do you suppose the Hezbollah has done this? Are they or Lebanon under attack? No way!

Hezbollah has attacked, and their attack has nothing to do with prisoner exchanges. Hezbollah, with the aid of Syria and Iran, is trying to destroy Israel. That’s it.

Israel has responded militarily. How could they do otherwise? If the Cubans hurled rockets at Miami, would you recommend the U.S. not use “excessive force”? This is ridiculous.

Israel, unlike Hezbollah, is doing whatever it can to avoid hitting civilians. Bombing of the airport and other Lebanon locations was done to prevent Syria and Iran from sending new military supplies.

Those unfortunate civilians that were killed were effectively killed by Hezbollah.

“Again wonderful sentiments but we live in the real world. To the islamists there is only one outcome, the destruction of Israel and thenthe rest of the west.”

Keith -

I understand the real world we live in, so now I am trying to see the world as I want it to be - to find solutions that might actually last. As far as your comments about Islam, it’s only the extreme fanatics that feel that way - most people who follow Isman are specifically non-violent. Read the Koran… it’s much less tolerable of violence than the Bible. But like all religions, when wackos read these books, the find words they can twist to thier own agendas.

I think the recent move by Hezbollah is only for the appearance of “wiping out Israel.” They need to boost their base and increase local and international support for their organization. The whole BS about prisoner exchange was that - an excuse to try and add legitimacy to this whole fiasco.

The only proper solution to this conflict is as follows.

The US should arm the Lebanese government to the same degree that it arms its Israli counterpart. This way Lebanon could disarm Hezbollah in a manner more fitting to their civilian population.

I agree that Israel has the right to defend itself, but we must not forget how Israel is able to defend itself.

Does Lebanon not have the right to defend itself. If it is not capable of doing so and ridding the country of Hezbollah isn’t it in our interest to give it such power.

The fact that Israel is ridding the Lebanese of Hezbollah does not help. In fact, as we will soon see it will only create more recruits. Sure…Israel is stronger than Hezbollah. Sure Hezbollah started the conflict….does that mean that Israel has the right not to *THINK*? Does that mean that the US has the right to turn a blind eye to a military power that it created?

International peacekeepers sound like a good idea, but where will they come from? If America sends any, the terrorist will just start shooting us long enough for the high minded peaceloving folks to say that we’ve lost too many soldiers and that we need to withdraw.

1LT B, I think you’re wrong about that. Americans know the difference between a good war and an unnecessary war. If US intervention is clearly to stabilize Lebanon, secure Israel, and create a system of alliances that check Iranian/Shiite terrorist ambitions in the region, then most Americans would agree it’s worth it.

I’m always surprised by the low opinion of their fellow Americans that Republicans have. If everybody supports the Afghan war but not the Iraq war, then you have to believe it’s the validity of the Iraq war that’s the problem — not Americans.

If China sent over peacekeepers, they’d probably blow away a whole village for one Chinese soldier being killed.

That’s funny. They’re not doing that in Haiti. I think you got some bad intel on China. In fact, it wouldn’t surprise me to see Chinese peacekeeping troops deply to South Asia and Africa in the near future. They have a lot at stake there.

Furthermore, Israel recognizes that all peacekeepers will do is keep them from finishing off the Hezbollah leadership and infastructure and allow the terrorist time to regroup and lick their wounds.

Where? If there’s a capable international force on the Israeli border then Hezbollah can’t operate against Israel from Lebanon. And by helping the Lebanese army disarm Hezbollah, we help the Lebanese government gain the monopoly over the use of force within their borders that Dr. P rightly says is necessary to create a strong state that will not allow terrorists to operate within its borders.

If we learn nothing else from Iraq, let’s learn that lesson.

tony,

“Read the Koran… it’s much less tolerable of violence than the Bible.”

Nice fantasy. You should read “The Great Divide” and “The Sword of the Prophet”.

Americans know the difference between a good war and an unnecessary war

It is unbeleivable that even with the proof staring one in the face certain people still want to make the above ridiculous point. The reality is that President Bush should be given props for placing American power in the correct location almost as if he had a crystal ball. American power is in both borders of Iran and within spit wad range of Israel’s enemies. Its is time to get it on! Way to go Israel and God Bless President Bush.

First of all, if you support Hezbollah then you support a terrorist organization that has declared war on the U.S. They have attacked U.S. civilians and military personel since 1982. That’s a fact, and there can be no debate. I’m not even including the Beirut barracks and embassy bombings because Hezbollah has denied responsibility for those. They have claimed responsibility for numerous other attacks against us. Islamic Jihad is the sister organization of Hezbollah. We are fighting them in Iraq right now, and they participated in the first World Trade Center bombing.

Hezbollah is not a part of the Palestinian question, and even the Palestinian Authority has said that Hezbollah and Hamas are the reasons there is no piece. Hezbollah is Lebanese. They were founded by Iran to prevent Lebanon from falling into foriegn control during their civil war. Their mission states that their goal was to rid Lebanon of all outsiders. Funny how all the outsiders pulled out except Syria, and Hezbollah has always supported Syria - AN OUTSIDER!

The Taif Agreement (which ended the Lebanese civil war), and UN Resolution 1559 require Lebanon to disband Hezbollah. Instead, they invited Lebanon into their government, and sought no outside help to remove Hezbollah. Why? Because they don’t want Hezbollah to go away. If Lebanon were serious about ending this violence then they would offer to help Israel to remove the terrorists. Instead, they stated that they may join with Hezbollah against Israel. The argument that Lebanon has been trying to get rid of Hezbollah, but were too weak to do so no longer holds water. If they were too weak, they should have asked for help, and they should jump at the chance for Israel’s assistance (which has been offered).

This fighting could end today, but Hezbollah and Hamas don’t want peace. The G8 said that the soldiers should be returned, the attacks to stop, THEN Israel is expected to halt the attack. Israel agreed to this offer. If they get their men back safely (yeah right, Hezbollah has a history of executing Israeli hostages) and the attacks stop - Israel will end it’s attacks. From now on it is on Hezbollah and Hamas’s hands. They started it, and they’ve been offered a peace proposal. They have only responded with more attacks.

There can be NO blaiming Israel for starting or continuing this conflict. There was a peace agreement in place with both groups. They violated the peace agreements, not Israel. Israel has offered peace, they denied. At the end of the day we have two terrorst groups that have openly declared war on the U.S., and attacked us on numerous occasions. We have two enemies attacking a friend. You should be ashamed of yourselves for supporting the enemy.

1LT B-
I don’t think Hezbollah can be counted upon to work for peace. Any sensible peace plan has to marginalize them in favor of some other voting block in Lebanon. This time, they must be disarmed, first thing, no exceptions. They made a