Immigration Realization

The Senate’s version of immigration reform may benefit America in the most unforeseen way.

Under the Senate's idea of immigration reform -- Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act (CIRA) -- immigrants, legal and illegal, will flow into the United States like never before.

The Washington Times reports:

The Senate immigration reform bill would allow for up to 193 million new legal immigrants -- a number greater than 60 percent of the current U.S. population -- in the next 20 years, according to a study released yesterday.

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As part of the bill, the annual flow of legal immigrants allowed into the U.S. would more than double to more than 2 million annually. In addition, the guest-worker program in the bill would bring in 325,000 new workers annually who could later apply for citizenship.

That population would grow exponentially from there because the millions of new citizens would be permitted to bring along their extended families.

Robert Rector of The Heritage Foundation explains how the Senate's bill would allow millions of new immigrants:

Current law visas: About 950,000 persons now get permanent-residence visas every year under current law. Over 20 years, the inflow of immigrants through this channel would be 19 million.

Amnesty: The bill would grant amnesty to roughly 10 million illegal immigrants now living in the U.S.

Spouses/children of illegal immigrants given amnesty: Illegals who got amnesty could bring their spouses and children into the country as legal permanent residents with the opportunity for full citizenship. The resulting number of spouses and children who would enter the United States? At least 5 million.

"Family chain" migration: Today's law limits the number of kinship visas for secondary family members, such as adult brothers and sisters. The Senate bill would raise the cap on such secondary family immigration from around 230,000 to 480,000 per year, bringing in 5 million new immigrants over 20 years.

Temporary guest workers for life: The amended Senate bill would let 200,000 people enter through the guest-worker program each year. Over 20 years, that works out to a total inflow of 4 million. The "guest workers" aren't temporary at all, but could stay in the U.S. permanently and become citizens.

Spouses/children of guest workers: Guest workers could bring their spouses and children to the United States as permanent residents, adding another 4.8 million entrants over 20 years.

Worker visas for skilled specialty occupations: The Senate bill would initially double the number of specialty workers who could enter the U.S., and would then allow the number to increase by 20 percent in each subsequent year. These workers would be permitted to request permanent residence, and, in most cases, would be able to stay in the U.S. for life. More than 5.5 million legal immigrant workers could enter under these provisions over the next two decades.

Spouses/children of specialty workers: Specialty workers could bring their spouses and children to the United States as permanent residents, adding another 3 million entrants over 20 years.

Refugee women: Under the bill, an unlimited number of women who fear they may undergo "harm" as a result of their sex may enter the U.S. as refugees and become citizens. The numbers who would enter under this open-ended provision is uncertain, but 1 million over 20 years is a reasonable estimate.

Parents of naturalized citizens: The Senate bill would greatly increase the number of naturalized citizens, each would have an unlimited right to bring their parents into the country as legal permanent residents. The resulting number of parents who would enter as permanent legal residents? Around 3.5 million over 20 years.

The Washington Times points out another flaw of the Senate bill:

Out of deference to the confidentiality concerns of foreigners in the U.S., the bill would bar state and local police from detaining aliens simply for being in the U.S. illegally. Police could arrest the aliens only if they commit certain additional violations of federal immigration law such as marriage fraud or document counterfeiting.

Robert Novak points out how this "terrorist loophole" in the Senate bill would not avert another 9/11:

The classic case is Ziad Jarrah, who was at the controls of United Flight 93 when passengers fought the terrorists and the plane crashed in the Pennsylvania countryside. Jarrah was an illegal alien from Lebanon who had violated U.S. immigration laws but had avoided apprehension by authorities until he was stopped on Sept. 9, 2001, for speeding in Maryland on his way from Baltimore to join his confederates in Newark.

Nawaf al-Hazmi, the 9-11 plot's second in command, also had been stopped for speeding April 1, 2001. The visa on his Saudi Arabian passport had expired eight-and-one-half months earlier, but the Oklahoma patrolman did not ask to see it.

Had these local police officers been as well briefed as law enforcement officers are now, Jarrah or Hazmi might well have been taken into custody. It is conceivable that the 9-11 conspiracy would have been uncovered and disaster averted. But that would not be possible under the Senate bill.

So how does this disastrous bill benefit America? Americans, from every inch of the country, would witness the aftermath of massive, unassimilated immigration (what would have been illegal immigration would now be legal immigration). We will see crime skyrocket. We will see our healthcare system go bankrupt. We will see our neighborhoods "change." We will see our national language -- English -- become diluted. We will see our wages driven down. We will see our jobs taken. We will have a higher chance for another 9/11 (as if we don't have a high enough chance now). We will see our country become crippled. It will escalate the immigration situation to explosive levels. Only then would Americans understand how a country cannot sustain itself without any immigration restrictions.

Right now, although millions of Americans are angered with the federal government's failure to secure our border and deport illegal aliens, only a part of it is angered to action. Sandwich, a Cape Cod town, has made "the hiring of illegal immigrants a punishable offense." We saw Herndon residents elect a new mayor against day-laborer sites for illegal aliens. The Florida towns of Avon and Palm Bay are following in the footsteps of Hazleton. Earlier this year, Georgia's governor, Sonny Perdue, signed into law requiring "residents who are seeking state social welfare benefits to prove their legal status, as well as mandating that the police check the legal status of everyone they arrest and alert federal authorities to any violations." And earlier this week Colorado passed legislation forcing people to verify their citizenship so they can continue receiving "Medicare, Medicaid, unemployment insurance, energy assistance programs and aging and adult service."

The USA Today divides up the way Americans view immigration into four categories: the hard-liners, the unconcerned, the ambivalent, the welcoming. The disastrous effects of the Senate bill, if instituted, would turn soft-liners -- the unconcerned, the ambivalent -- into hard-liners.

Posted by Mike Tate at July 13, 2006 12:07 PM
Comments
Comment #167078

Using numbers from the Heritage Foundation is a great way to make your entire argument worthless.

That said, I love how your first three negatives were higher crime, a strain on healthcare, and “our neighborhoods change”. God, no!!! Not changing neighborhoods!!! Anything but THAT!!!!

Nationalism is a disease. But the fact is they are here already. Do you think our economy could handle the loss of “10 million” consumers right now? The answer is no. Assume they all live at the poverty level, about $16k/year. And lets assume they send half their money home to wherever they are from. That is 8,000 times 10,000,000 that is no longer being spent. I know you can’t do the math, so I’ll tell you it comes to 80 billion. Thats dollars. But wait, there’s more…

Lets assume they aren’t all living at the poverty level. Lets say that the average earning for the 10 million is 35k/year. At that earning level, they are paying 27% in Fed taxes, an additional 94.5 billion in Fed taxes. That’s almost enough to pay for our BS wars. Or pay down the national debt in 888 years. Take your pick.

Posted by: David S at July 13, 2006 12:38 PM
Comment #167080

David,
“I love how your first three negatives were higher crime, a strain on healthcare, and “our neighborhoods change”. God, no!!! Not changing neighborhoods!!! Anything but THAT!!!!”


So, crime and healthcare is not a problem with you; or were you just being a smartalick with the “changing neighborhoods” comment?! Why do you want to protect “cheap labor” and “low wages” to our country? Why do you have a problem with our laws and enforcing our laws?!! Hmmm…

Posted by: rahdigly at July 13, 2006 12:48 PM
Comment #167083

David S.,

The other half ($80 Billion) is sent out of the US. Doesn’t that have a negating effect?

-GK

Posted by: GK at July 13, 2006 12:51 PM
Comment #167092

Crime and Health Care are now already a big problem, and getting worse, so let’s bring in more illegals and give them Amnesty so they can become productive citizens of the United States, what BS, take a look at health care cost and it is expected to rise, why do you think the big 3 automakers are now requiring employees to pay for part of their medical cost, look at the FBI figures on crime and most are going up also.

Mike why don’t you go out and commit a crime and see if you get Amnesty, better yet head south and go into mexico illegally and see if they give you Amnesty. After you get out of prison there, you can let everybody know how it was.

Posted by: KT at July 13, 2006 1:15 PM
Comment #167096
I know you can’t do the math

In hilarious irony, David S believes that once any semblance of the illegality of illegal immigration is removed, this behavior will not only not increase but would be stay the same. I have news for you David, not all immigrants work steadily nor get paid towards the poverty level. They also will leave their work at the sound of agents yelling “INS!!”.
Even if all the reasons given in the article are not well founded, there is no reason to implement this. It does not help anyone.

As a legal immigrant myself, now naturalized, the senate’s bill is insulting and ridiculous

Posted by: frankxcid at July 13, 2006 1:23 PM
Comment #167102

This article puzzles me. What’s wrong with increasing the number of legal immigrants? We need more people to make up for our own falling birthrates, so why not bring in more people legally? I would make a clear seperation between those we grant a chance for citizenship to, however. We should be in the mindset of an NFL team on draft day, searching out and recruiting the best and brightest. We should be especially interested in bringing in well educated people from Asia. Seeing how they are our new competition in the global market, every one of them we can bring here to have a chance at the American dream will enrich us while taking a valuable asset from our rivals.

Other good places to recruit would be India, eastern Europe, and moderate Muslim states. I say moderate Muslim states because as these people also become integrated into American society, they can report back to thier family and friends in their former countries that maybe Americans aren’t all infidels after all.

Posted by: 1LT B at July 13, 2006 1:30 PM
Comment #167108

David S,

The Heritage Foundation is only listing what the Senate bill does. It’s not making anything up.


The Senate bill will basically allow ANYONE in the world to come and live in America.

Posted by: Mike Tate at July 13, 2006 1:40 PM
Comment #167114

1LT B-

First time for everything, I am agreeing with most of what you said. The fact is that the immigration hardliners are nationalists, plain and simple. It pisses them off everytime they flip past Telemundo or hear “par espanol, marque numero 2”. I liken the immigration debate to the war on drugs. You can lock up all the illegal immigrants, just like you can lock up all the drug users, but there are millions of people lining up to replace them. If you cut off their supply by making it way too risky for employers to higher illegals, then you could seriously affect the situation. But the fines have to be greater than the amount of money they would save by hiring illegals under the table.

You have to put yourself in the illegal immigrants’ shoes. If you live in Mexico, where you and your children have no future, but a few miles north you can make ten times the money and give your children a better life, what would you do? Of course there are people who take advantage of the system, but there are people who take advantage of every system, on all parts of the economic spectrum.

Posted by: David S at July 13, 2006 1:50 PM
Comment #167120

David S,

“Using numbers from the Heritage Foundation is a great way to make your entire argument worthless.”

Why?

Posted by: traveller at July 13, 2006 2:08 PM
Comment #167121

It seems that most everyone here misses the real points in regulating imigration. First allow me to address some previous statements. “Allow illegal immigrants to legally be part of the US and pay taxes and help the economy” Ok this does work short term however it is only a short term benifit. 20 years ago France had a similiar situation. They opened the border to all imigration the influx of people allowed for more tax revenue and ending thier termoil. The problem was that those imigrants brought with them people whom would not contribute the economy. (hence +20% unemployment rate currently). The effect is now realized in the mass burning of cars. Now that being said we do not have the means to deport 10+ million people. But what we can do is make them deport themselves. Its a very simple theory really. Simply take away all public assistance to illegal aliens. If we enforce the current labor laws to not allow illegals to work they will go through the proper ways to become legal. You must understand both sets of my grandparents were imigrants and they went through the same hurdles. The thought that we need illegals to do the jobs Americans wont do is crazy. Generally speaking this is only a gernalization for southwestern states. In the rest of United States where there are few illegals how do these jobs get down? They are done by American’s. I say use the money that is being wasted on illegals and use it to make becoming legal easier.

Posted by: Anthony at July 13, 2006 2:13 PM
Comment #167124
Do you think our economy could handle the loss of “10 million” consumers right now? The answer is no.

David S:

You’re exactly right. One of my first columns in this conservative blog was on illegal immigration. You can read it here, but in short I asserted that we should abolish minimum wage and labor laws regarding illegal aliens:

The plan, which attacks the cause of the problem, rather than the effect, would work threefold: first, it encourages current illegal aliens to reconsider their state of affairs—forcing them to endure inhumane working conditions and even more repugnantly inferior wages—enticing at least some to leave, but hopefully in sporadic amounts so the economy will maintain its buoyancy and won’t recede. Secondly, for the same reason it encourages current illegal immigrants to leave, the plan acts as a disincentive, discouraging future criminals from crossing the border, acting as a figurative wall of apprehension and malevolence, looming dauntingly over the heads of the demoralized transgressor, instilling a disheartening sense of trepidation and anxiety. Lastly, the plan would bolster the bottom line of the floundering small business and farming industries that depend on illegal labor to break even, especially in light of the recent billion dollar conglomerate boom.


Posted by: Alex Fitzsimmons at July 13, 2006 2:20 PM
Comment #167139

why can’t we let the criminals that we let out of prison do the jobs that the rest of America thinks they are “too good” to do? Better yet, Let’s put GPS systems on Sexual Offenders, make them do the jobs Americans are “too good” to do to pay for the GPS systems? That will eliminate the need for the illegals to do that work.
Then, we beef up security at the borders. We give the border patrol permission to shoot those who have multiple attempts at border crossing. That should deter them. Plus the fact that we have no work for them. That should take care of the problem. The ones who are here already: They can get in line behind everyone else waiting to get in. When their name comes up, I have no problem with them coming into the country LEGALLY. If they are here ILLEGALLY, GET OUT!

Posted by: shana at July 13, 2006 2:58 PM
Comment #167142

I am a small business owner. I own a bread route in Tucson, Arizona. It employs one person to whom I pay @ $60,000 per year (he earns every penny of it!). He has a wife, three children, owns a home, makes a mortgage payment, owns two cars, with payments to make on each, credit card payments. He goes out and buys a lot of “stuff” over the course of any given year. He has life insurance, health insurance, auto-home insurance.
If there is an infusion of 10 - 20 - ? million new “legal” workers into this country I could hire two people to replace him. I could hire them as “independent contractors”, pay them 20 a year each and put 20 in my pocket net over my current situation. great for me!
These two individuals will probably send a portion of their pay outside of the country (How is that good for the United States)
They will not have health insurance cause health insurance, of course, doesn’t insure your health it insures your assets!!! If they have a problem they will simply present themselves at a local hospital and demand care.
They will not carry auto insurance. That’s expensive! Their insurance is the simple fact that the border is 90 miles away and I guarantee that that is where they will head if they incur any liability.
bush’s plan (and it is bush’s plan) is simple a massive way to privatize the benefits and socialize the costs

Posted by: Charles Ross at July 13, 2006 3:01 PM
Comment #167150

You know that many people in government have less than ethical reasons for promoting immigration (legal or illegal) as much as possible.

Some want cheap labor (to exploit an underpaid underclass).
Some want votes.
Some think it will solve our aging population problem.
So, some say, just import some more people?
Interesting, but is that ethical? Or wise?
And, how smart is it to import massive numbers of immigrants that are impoverished and less educated?
How is that going to solve economic problems resulting from an aging population and massive illegal immigration?
Especially when 32% of illegal aliens currently receive welfare.
What happens when we give ‘em all amnesty and they invite 50 more of their closest relatives, and they all start drawing from welfare, medicaid, Social Security, Medicare, etc.?
Seems like exploitation to me.
That’s what will happen.
It is already happening.
And how ethical is that?
And, then there are those that say “they are already here”.
With that same logic, I should stop cutting my toe nails and hair, since they just keep growing.
But don’t worry. Everything has limits.
When all of the freebies, welfare, Medicaid, Social Security, Medicare, education systems have failed and all the ERs and hospitals have closed, the massive, uncontrolled illegal immigration will begin to decline.

Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 3:18 PM
Comment #167155
bush’s plan (and it is bush’s plan) is simple a massive way to privatize the benefits and socialize the costs.

Absolutely.
American tax payers are paying a net loss of over $70 billion per year, but the greedy employers of illegal aliens are making most of the profits.
Bought-and-paid-for politicians have big-money-donor puppeteers that don’t want that cheap labor to dissappear.

Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 3:30 PM
Comment #167156

Mike excellent use of language. you would make the PC crowd proud! I might be wrong here but, if it is a Senate plan the majority of whom are Republicans. And it is backed by the president, the head of the republican party, doesn’t that make it a Republican plan??

Posted by: 037 at July 13, 2006 3:30 PM
Comment #167160

It’s Republicans and Democrats.
Republicans want cheap labor.
Democrats want votes.

Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 3:35 PM
Comment #167162

And all these costs are pushed onto the taxpayers.
Politicians don’t care if the net losses to American taxpayers is over $70 billion per year.
Irresponsible incumbent politicians don’t care about anything but new votes and cheap labor.
Irresponsible incumbent politicians think we can immigrate our way out of our fiscal and economic problems.
Irresponsible incumbent politicians also know that American voters are lazy and brainwashed, and will keep re-electing them, no matter how irresponsible they are.

  • Stop Repeat Offenders.

  • Don’t Re-Elect Them !

Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 3:41 PM
Comment #167164

How do illegals vote? and, Republicans don’t want votes?

No, it is a Republican plan with lots of Democratic support.

Dems want the votes is Rush Limbaugh Horse Shi*

Posted by: 037 at July 13, 2006 3:43 PM
Comment #167165

d.a.n.-

32% of illegfal immigrants receive welfare??? As of 2002 (the most recent reliable numbers) there were just over 5.1 million welfare recipients in the US. If 32% of illegals recieve welfare, and there are 10 million illegals, then over half of the welfare recipients in the US are illegals? I think you may need to check your numbers.

Posted by: David S at July 13, 2006 3:44 PM
Comment #167168

Here’s a thought: maybe go after the companies? If you hire an illegal, $100K fine. Period. No benefits to illegals at all! You cannot have it both ways. They’re either protected by the constitution or they are not.

David S. - They DO change neighborhoods. And not in a good way. Do you like vandalism? Do you like having your kids get harrassed by groups of kids who hang out on the street all day? These illegal aliens are the WORST parents for the most part. Even when they mean well, their kids speak English and they do not. So the kids begin to run things. Guess what that leads to? How many 12 year olds do you trust to make the right decision on their own? I don’t know ANY. But this is innevitably what happens with no meaningful parental guidance.

On the other hand, most legal immigrants appreciate enough about being here to actually learn from Americans. They ruthlessly push their kids to go to college and become good citizens. We should allow this process to be easier and allow more people to do it.

If you move to a foreign country, you WILL be taken advantage of if you do not assimilate for the necessary issues that arise in that society. I’ve seen countless kids running households in East LA. They even handle the finances. Yes, most aliens work hard, but at the cost of their children. It takes generations for most to even want to move out of the ghetto. I love to see the mothers holding two babies on their hips while their other 10 kids run amuck with no discipline whatsoever. If the school calls, they lie about it. If they get arrested, they lie and turn it into racism or some other excuse. This is what kids do, and these parents are creating criminals by not being able to understand what is really going on.

Anyone seen the stats on prison populations or arrests in border states? Those are very telling of a real problem.

So I don’t want any do-gooder nonsense about “heaven forbid we change the neighborhood” because
no one should want what has hapenned in parts of southern california to happen to their neighborhoods. We should do everything we can to prevent it!

Posted by: Kevin23 at July 13, 2006 3:51 PM
Comment #167170

ANYone in the world is supposed to be allowed to come and live in America!! That’s the whole damn point! “Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses”. Nothing in there about recruiting “the best and brightest”. Nothing about quotas, about waiting periods. You poeple have all lost sight of the ideals that this country was founded on. We are nowhere near full. We have yet to reach capacity. Swing the doors open and let ‘em in!

“We hold these truths to be self evident, that ALL men are created equal…inalienable rights…life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”. No where does it say that X number of people per year have inalienable rights, everyone else needs to get in line. You and I have no more of a right to the bounty this country affords than anyone else in the world. The whole point is that no matter where you are born, you can come to America and make your life whatever you want it to be. As those who are born here it is out responsibility to make sure the incredible ooportunity that is America is available to all, not just the ones who make the list. As soon as we limit who can and can’t stake their claim here, the experiment has failed.

Posted by: david S at July 13, 2006 3:54 PM
Comment #167172

Kevin23-

The crap you just spewed makes me sick. You are racist, plain and simple.

And before you question my experience, I live in Venice, CA, a largely Mexican neighborhood and I have found my neighbors to be hard working, their children polite and the neighborhood in general one of the best I have ever lived in. Of course there’s vandalism and petty crime, but there is in every urban area in most every country on the planet. Your ignorance is pathetic.

Posted by: David S at July 13, 2006 3:57 PM
Comment #167177

Great Davis S -

First, calling someone a racist for having pride in a safe place to raise kids is just crap.

Second, I grew up in East LA and most of my friends are kids of immigrants to this day. So don’t come off like some good guy. Also, Venice??? Come on!! I’ve hung out there MANY a Friday night. It is a different world over by the beach. No comparison.

So all the kids are hardworking and polite huh? I’ve got two friends who are LAPD who would love to talk some sense into you about just who causes problems there. Here’s a hint: most are well under 18. You just cannot convince these idiot parents that their kids did something wrong. They will instead start a mob mentality in their neighborhoods and people start yelling racism at the cops. Real polite! It happens to my buddies ALL DAY LONG! Get out of Venice Beach some time. Or I’ll bet you’re in Santa Monica anyway.

I once witnessed a school get robbed by a group of kids who promtly took home every trophy from the schools case and told the parents they had won them. When the cops came to retrieve the stolen trophies, the parents fought with them because they believed everything the kids said. It crazy. Want 20 more examples? Keep spouting off.

Posted by: Kevin23 at July 13, 2006 4:07 PM
Comment #167179

How about we raise taxes on David S to pay for protecting the whole world with our constitution. I hope he’s a Kazillionaire. There are limits to how many of the worlds problems we can eliminate through immigration. Maybe its time to think about ourselves. We’ve already got a debt that is out of control and you want more poor, tired people?

This is liberalism out of control.

Posted by: Kevin23 at July 13, 2006 4:11 PM
Comment #167182

I forgot to mention about those stolen trophies: they were all clearly labelled, and all had been won over 20 years earlier. A simple basic english lesson would have told those parents everything they needed to know. But they were too busy taking care of the young children to care…they even said this as if it were an acceptable excuse.

Posted by: Kevin23 at July 13, 2006 4:14 PM
Comment #167183

Try this, racist.

The problems you associate with Mexican immigrants have nothing to do with the fact that they are Mexican, or that they are immigrants, or anything other than the fact that they are poor! The same problems exist in the lower classes of every city, and to a lesser extent in low-income rural areas. These were the same arguments people used to justify school segragation (“I don’t want my kids hanging out with those undesirables”). Your reasoning is based on fear and is therefore useless to rational thought.

Maybe you and your LAPD buddies should pack and move to Idaho where everyone looks like you. SoCal will be better off without you.

Posted by: David S at July 13, 2006 4:19 PM
Comment #167185

David S,
There are more than 5 million welfare recipients, nationwide.
The 5 million you state is only for TANF alone.

And, 32% of illegal aliens receiving welfare may be a conservative number.

Some say it is now as high as 36% to 42% .
32% of illegal aliens receive welfare (Jan-2004);

Also, the burden on prison systems is substantial, because 29% of all prisoners in state and federal prisons are illegal aliens (Sep-2004)

Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 4:21 PM
Comment #167186

link

Posted by: David S at July 13, 2006 4:21 PM
Comment #167187

d.a.n.-

Really? Is the American Resistance website the best source you can some up with? Try getting statistics from actual sources, not lobbyists.

Posted by: david s at July 13, 2006 4:24 PM
Comment #167195

The problem is that illegal aliens are costing U.S. taxpayers net losses of over $70 billion per year:

  • burden on education systems;

  • burden on healthcare systems;

  • burden on hospital systems; 84 hospitals closed/closing in California;

  • burden on welfare systems; over 32% of illegal aliens collect welfare

  • burden on Medicaid system;

  • burden on Social Security and Medicare systems;

  • burden on border patrol systems; ever increasing numbers are needed;

  • burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;

  • burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;

  • burden on prison systems; 29% of state and federal prisoners (Sep-2004) are illegal aliens;

  • 2.3 million displaced American workers; partly because half of all illegal aliens that don’t pay taxes, and greedy employers that don’t pay unemployment taxes, Social Security, Medicare taxes, etc.;

  • voter fraud; burden on voting systems;

    … etc., etc., etc… .

    It’s not a race, color, or religion issue.
    It’s the theft of services that are funded by Americans citizens. Massive illegal immigration of impoverished and less educated immigrants is not helping anything.

    We are enriched by legal, controlled immigration.
    Not by massive, uncontrolled illegal immigration.

    But, whether Americans like it or not, their politicians want new votes, and cheap labor, and the inflow will continue, and as soon as provide another amnesty, the problem will quadruple again, just like it did after the amnesty of 1986.

    The only thing that will slow it down will probably be the failure of the freebies, medicaid, welfare, medicare, Social Security, education system, ERs, and hospitals.

    There’s no mystery why so many illegal aliens flood into the U.S.

    There’s lots of free stuff.
    32% of illegal aliens receive welfare.
    Half don’t have to pay any taxes.
    They don’t have to obey any laws.
    Even if ever arrested (even for serious crimes), they are often released over and over.
    Increaed crime rates are another problem arising from massive, uncontrolled, illegal immigration.
    It’s often a result of massive (legal or illegal) immigration.
    Government policy encourages illegal immigration.
    States have been forced to accomodate illegal aliens.
    States have been discouraged by the Federal government from apprehending illegal aliens.
    That’s because the federal government thinks it can immigrate its way out of its problems.
    That ain’t gonna work.
    It will simply make everything worse.

    Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 4:37 PM
    Comment #167196

    David S is a huddled mass person. This is a country of rules and rights. You have the rights if you are a citizen, if you follow the rules. The rights are not for the huddled masses who live elsewhere. They have their own government which may or may not give them the same rights under the same rules. Let them stand up for their rights where they are citizens, not here. If they want to come here, there are rules as to how many will be allowed in.

    You got a problem with rules? You must be hard to beat at poker. (no, no. my 3club and 7diamond beats your two kings. what rules?)

    Posted by: Don at July 13, 2006 4:37 PM
    Comment #167200

    Oh, and that “give us your … huddled masses” is from what part of our constitution document?

    Posted by: Don at July 13, 2006 4:42 PM
    Comment #167202

    David S,

    Regardless of the actual percentage, it is high, and the accuracy of the percentage in no way diminishes the reality of the existing problem.
    Besides, what ever links I provide, you won’t believe it any way.

    If 29% of all inmates in all prisons are illegal aliens, I don’t have too much trouble believing that 32% (or more) of illegal aliens receive welfare. Regardless of the actual figure, it is a large percentage.

    Hell, I don’t blame illegal aliens for comin’ here merely lookin’ for a job and better life.

    I blame crooked, manipulating, irresponsible, bought-and-paid-for politicians that are pitting American citizens and illegal aliens against each other .

    That’s the real problem.
    That, and brainwashed voters that keep re-electin’ them.

    • Stop Repeat Offenders.
    • Don’t Re-Elect Them !
    Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 4:46 PM
    Comment #167206

    First, Davis S-

    Read the watchblog rules!!! Calling people names to get your way stopped working when we were MUCH younger.

    Second, move to Idaho? Nice one. Keep up the great logic!

    Third, it is NOT just a poor thing as I explained to you the huge problems associated with the refusal to adapt. Poor people can usually read and write english (police report, financial documents, etc.), but poor HISPANIC (I never used the word mexican EVER!) populations in So Cal are have many more unique problems than those traditionally felt in poor areas. Try reading my post and stop being so emotional. You are arguing against stuff I didn’t even say because you can’t stop screaming “Racist!” Get over yourself already!

    Posted by: Kevin23 at July 13, 2006 4:48 PM
    Comment #167213

    We have new rules.

    David S is in charge of immigration. His first three immigrants are:
    1. Sa damn you know who
    2. OsamaBL
    3. you go Hugo
    An alternate choise is:
    4. KJL the poster boy for bobble head dolls
    He also must house these three where he lives and they must reside there for 5 years before granting citizenship.

    The above suggestion is purely jest, but it makes just as much sense as letting in everybody that has a mule to get here.
    The sad part of it is that there are too many people that are in agreement to letting in every Tom, Dick and Harry and their wives (all of them), their childres, their cousins, aunts, uncles, grandparents, friends, neighbors, enemies, and total strangers. We would surely have mob rule.

    Posted by: tomh at July 13, 2006 5:01 PM
    Comment #167214

    This topic always ends up in heated debate.
    What is important is that American citizens should take notice of this one important thing:

    Irresponsible, corrupt, bought-and-paid-for, do-nothing politicians are pitting American citizens and illegal aliens against each other !

    And voters can not see that, because they are so consumed and fond of wallowing in the petty partisan warfare.

    Voters can not see that, because voters are so brainwashed to pull the party lever, vote the party line, vote straight ticket, and keep re-electing irresponsible incumbent politicians that keep using and abusing everyone.

    Some hard-liner main party bigots don’t want to hear that, but that is the truth, and that is the root of most or our problems.

    Corrupt, irresponsible government, and an ignorant electorate that keeps re-electing them, is at the root of most of our problems.

    • Stop Repeat Offenders.
    • Don’t Re-Elect Them !
    Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 5:02 PM
    Comment #167215

    You’re damn right I’m a huddled mass person. And just because it isn’t in the constitution doesn’t mean it’s not an American ideal. And the constitution does say that “ALL men are created equal”. Do you think that means all American men? Everytime in the 200+ year history of that document that one group tried to limit the definition of “all men” they have been trampled under the unstoppable boot of progress. People who would seal the borders are next.

    Posted by: david S at July 13, 2006 5:03 PM
    Comment #167217

    duh, I meant Declaration of Independence. Man, y’all have me fired up today.

    Posted by: david S at July 13, 2006 5:07 PM
    Comment #167219

    David S,
    In Utopia, everyone can come and go wherever and whenever they like.
    In Reality, no nation should be forced to suffer the impact that usually accompanies massive, uncontrolled immigration.
    Also, we can not control what other nations do.
    There are justifiable reasons for limited, controlled immigration, and secure borders.
    All sovereign nations should have the right to control each if they choose.
    Now, back to reality.
    This problem would not be as bad as it is if it were not all of the freebies.
    Hell, the U.S. is an illegal alien magnet.
    That is by design.
    Politicians made it that way.
    Why is that?

    Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 5:17 PM
    Comment #167224

    D.A.N. while I agree that you make some very good points, the idea that the Democrats want Illegal or undocumented people doesn’t make sense. They can’t vote. And their presents creates a downward pressure on wages. It is the workers of America that the Democrats are supposed to represent. How is illegal immigration helping them? People sneaking into the country aren’t running to the voting both for anybody.

    Posted by: 037 at July 13, 2006 5:31 PM
    Comment #167225

    At this point, d.a.n., I’m hpoing they did it just to piss you off.

    Your logic is flawed, because the US was a magnet for immigration long before the New Deal. And I thought Utopia was what were are supposed to be creating here? No one said it would be easy. But until things level out and people are just as happy and have just as much opportunity in Mexico, India, Germany and wherever else they may want to come from, no one in the US should put their own financial well being above the ability for othe rpeople to come here and have a chance. And really, thats what this is all about. It has nothing to do with crime, or language, or traditions, or any of the other crap that people hang their arguments on. Its all about keeping a bigger piece of the pie. Well, this country was designed for everyone who wants to ahve equal access to the pie. Not through welfare, which is a separate issue that needs serious addressing, but through the opportunity to come here and earn it. Those who would deny anyone that basic “inalienable” right are either greedy or scared of the competition.

    Posted by: david S at July 13, 2006 5:34 PM
    Comment #167226

    037,

    Oh, that’s where you are wrong.
    They do vote (fraudulently).
    And some states condone it.
    Also, Democrats want new voters.
    Also, politicians think they can immigrate their way out of a number of problems.
    That is exploitation.
    The problem is politicians.
    Too many are worthless.

    Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 5:34 PM
    Comment #167228

    David S -

    The document says that God created all men equal. It doesn’t say that all men receive the same pay. It also doesn’t say that all men have the right to live in the USA.

    That all men are created equal is a statement more about God’s justice than man’s.

    An ideal is nice. It sounds real pretty. It usually can be found no place in reality. Name the place that allows all people to move in, no limit (aside from Hell).

    Posted by: Don at July 13, 2006 5:37 PM
    Comment #167231

    David S,

    No, the logic of your statements are flawed.
    Massive, uncontrolled immigration was never supposed to be the norm.
    Also, how can things level out if hordes of illegal aliens can always descend upon the next best target?
    The problem is also that the pie can not be made big enough for everyone.

    Lastly, remember what the real problem here is.
    It’s not merely illegal immigration.
    It is a problem exacerbated by irresponsible politicians.
    Look at all the ways they have fueled it.
    They have forced states to bear the costs.
    Border states are getting fed up.

    Politicians are pitting U.S. citizens and illegal aliens against each other.

    That’s the real problem.

    Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 5:41 PM
    Comment #167232

    Show me your proof Democrats have a plan to get illegals into the country to vote. BS Again Republicans don’t want new voter?? Who’s plan is it??

    Posted by: 037 at July 13, 2006 5:42 PM
    Comment #167233

    Dan
    lets admitt it is Republican bussiness people who want to drive wages down. They are the ones sponsoring and backing the senate plan.

    Posted by: 037 at July 13, 2006 5:44 PM
    Comment #167234

    Want real solutions.

    • Stop Repeat Offenders.

    • Don’t Re-Elect Them !

    Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 5:44 PM
    Comment #167236
    Dan lets admitt it is Republican bussiness people who want to drive wages down. They are the ones sponsoring and backing the senate plan.
    Yes, Mostly Replublicans. But too many politicians from both parties are equally culpable. Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 5:47 PM
    Comment #167238

    037,
    Do the research.
    Voter fraud by illegal aliens is real.
    Don’t disbelieve it until you’ve checked.
    I don’t just make these things up.

    Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 5:49 PM
    Comment #167239

    Actually, Don, it doesn’t. It says all men are created equal and are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights. UNALIENABLE RIGHTS. And do you really believe that that was included in one of the founding documents of this country just as an aside, or perhaps that it was specifically meant as a founding principle for this country?

    And d.a.n., how do you knopw if massive, uncontrolled immigration was ever supposed to be the norm? What about all the Irish that came here to escape the famine? They faced the same kind of garbage you’re proposing now, only back then there were no systems of exclusion built on the premise of moderation. The doors were open, the boats landed full to the brim and the unwashed, starving, dirt-poor masses flooded ashore in New York, Boston and New Orleans. They migrated west to Chicago and built the great railroads that helped make this nation what it is today.

    Posted by: David S at July 13, 2006 5:49 PM
    Comment #167241

    Illegal Aliens Voting

    And with no real way to verify identification, how do you know who really votes or not ?

    Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 5:56 PM
    Comment #167244

    Sorry…bad link:
    Illegal Aliens Voting
    Voter fraud

    Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 5:58 PM
    Comment #167245
    And d.a.n., how do you knopw if massive, uncontrolled immigration was ever supposed to be the norm?
    Ask any American Indian. Duh !
  • Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 6:01 PM
    Comment #167246

    David S,
    Why don’t you let them come live with you then?
    Make themselves at home?
    Stay awhile?
    Eat your food?
    Invite a few friends?
    Perhaps their 50 closest relatives?
    No?
    Why not?
    After all, it’s your idea.
    Oh … I see.
    It’s some one else’s problem to deal with.

    Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 6:04 PM
    Comment #167251

    ummm.. No offense DAN but do you have a slightly more credible source?

    How is this a Democratic plan? common’
    Just because fraud is real doesn’t mean it 1)make a major difference 2)They aren’t going to vote for the Republicans who let them in. That is the point. There is not an upside worth a major party initiative.

    Posted by: 037 at July 13, 2006 6:11 PM
    Comment #167254

    Republicans want cheap labor.
    Democrats want votes.
    It’s that simple.
    Go to any search engine, and type in the following:

    illegal AND alien AND vote AND fraud

    You’ll get ample hits. It is a growing problem, and getting worse. And, as evidenced by the closeness of the Presidential election of 2000, every vote counts.

    But, remember … politicians are the problem.

    They are pitting Americans and illegal aliens against each other.
    When they’re finished with that, they turn all their attention back to fueling the petty partisan warfare.

    Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 6:17 PM
    Comment #167261

    d.a.n, you are right Republicans want cheap labor, alot like share cropping was. Give a person just enough to live, but barely, keep them using credit at the company store to just keep them going.
    Wait the Republicans want the votes now of the aliens. Bush is the one pushing for Amnesty, and guest workers.
    Yes the US says give us your tired, poor etc, but it also wants it done legally. Take a look at all those that came thru Ellis Island, they saved, waited and came into the US legally.

    Posted by: KT at July 13, 2006 6:26 PM
    Comment #167263

    d.a.n.-

    Why don’t you move back to whatever country your ancestors immigrated here from? If the opportunity is only for a chosen few, I don’t choose you. Not my choice? Well, its not yours either. This country is opportunity for all. Not opportunity to come here and live off the hard work of others, like I keep saying that is a separate issue. Opportunity to come here and make more of yourself than you could have where you were. If you want to talk about welfare reform, start another post. At the very least, stop recycling the same lame catch phrases in every post.

    Posted by: David S at July 13, 2006 6:35 PM
    Comment #167265

    David S,
    My great, great grandmother is Cherokee.
    What country would you have me move to?
    Why don’t you move to Never-Never-Land ?

    So why don’t you let illegal aliens come live with you then?
    Make themselves at home?
    Stay awhile?
    Eat your food?
    Invite a few friends?
    Perhaps their 50 closest relatives?
    No?
    Why not?
    After all, it’s your idea.
    Oh … I see.
    It’s some one else’s problem to deal with.

    Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 6:42 PM
    Comment #167269

    I’ve heard all the lame exuses …
    Before making excuses for illegal aliens, perhaps you should try to have a little more compassion for your fellow citizens first (assuming you are a citizen)?

    • Where is the compassion for the victims of increased crime rates (Source: GAO-05-646R based on study group of 55,322 illegal aliens over a 57 year period; 29% of all incarcerated are illegal aliens)

    • Where is the compassion for U.S. citizens that go without healthcare and access to E.R.s because ERs and hospitals are over-flowing with illegal aliens (of which many don’t pay)? Is this fair to U.S. tax payers?

    • Where is the compassion for the truly needy U.S. citizens that can not get help because of limited resources and 32% of illegal aliens receiving welfare ?

    • Where is the compassion for the illegal aliens being lured here for sub-minimum wage jobs, creating an under-class (practically slavery) ?

    • Where is the outrage of the greedy employers of illegal aliens ?

    • Where is the compassion for the U.S. victims and survivors of crimes perpetrated by illegal aliens (29% of all prisoners are illegal aliens), and the crime rates are rising.

    • Where is the compassion for U.S. Americans who’s lives have been changed forever by illegal aliens that spread disease ? One illegal alien in Santa Barbara, California infected 56 other people with tuberculosis as reported on April 24, 2004, by the Santa Barbara Press-News, “Anatomy of an Outbreak”. Because illegal alien migration into the USA continues unabated for the past 20 years, we now have 16,000 new cases of incurable MDR tuberculosis in the past five years. We suffer 7,000 new cases of leprosy. We tolerate 100,000 new cases of hepatitis “A” in our society. Chagas Disease, which affects 14 million South Americans and kills 50,000 annually, streams across our borders as unchecked thousands enter our society illegally. If your child goes to public school, they could be exposed, as thousands already have been.

    • Where is the compassion for the U.S. tax payers that experience a net loss of about $70 billion per year due to all the numerous problems stemming from illegal aliens?

    Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 6:46 PM
    Comment #167270

    Gay marriage, flag burning, media censorship, and IMMIGRATION are very minor issues that deserve little attention.

    Also they invoke people like “d.a.n.” to scream “BLOODY MURDER!!!” about some useless crap.

    Posted by: greenstuff at July 13, 2006 6:48 PM
    Comment #167273

    greenstuff
    Legal imigration. Yes minor issue Illegal imigration MAJOR ISSUE!!!!! The other stuff yes minor.

    Posted by: KAP at July 13, 2006 7:01 PM
    Comment #167274

    Remember writing this, greenstump?

    greenstuffed wrote: Yes, I’m ignorant because …
    Finally !

    Well, I agree with you on that.

    And, whose talkin’ about murder?

    And, for the record, I don’t care much about the gay marriage topic, and you’ll have a tough time finding any comments by me about that, or against flag burning, or media censorship.

    But, illegal immigration is a serious issue.

    But all that other stuff you accuse me of is as you say “total crap”.

    Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 7:02 PM
    Comment #167276
    greenstuff also wrote previously: Oh, and by the way, you are a xenophobe, you’re scared of the illegal immigrants, your afraid that their culture will take over, that they will become dominant, that their decendants will become the MAJORITY! OH NO, WHITES NOT BEING THE MAJORITY!!! HOW TRAGIC!!!

    Remember that ?

    greenstuffed also wrote: d.a.n. Please stop posting …

    How revealing.

    Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 7:06 PM
    Comment #167277

    Actually, d.a.n., the Cherokee and most other “native” Americans immigrated across the land bridge from what is now Russia. Besides, great great grandmother? I’m guessing somewhere along the line that blood got a little dilluted.

    as far as:

    So why donⴠyou let illegal aliens come live with you then?
    Make themselves at home?
    Stay awhile?
    Eat your food?
    Invite a few friends?
    Perhaps their 50 closest relatives?
    No?
    Why not?
    After all, itⳠyour idea.
    Oh ⦠I see.
    ItⳠsome one elseⳠproblem to deal with.

    That’s crap. No one is asking you to let anyone in your home, eat your food, or bring their friends over. Just give them teh right to buy their own home, their own food, and have as many of their friends over to their home as they like. You’re really borderline dellusional, y’know?

    Posted by: David S at July 13, 2006 7:09 PM
    Comment #167279
    You’re really borderline dellusional, y’know?

    Now comes the name calling.
    That is always the last stage of behavior by those with lame and unsustainable arguments, and they can’t stand it, so they resort to childish name calling, telling people to go live somewhere else, etc. etc. etc.

    I’ve heard it all.
    You’re comments are right down there with all the other stereotypical bleedin’ hearts that make excuses for illegal aliens …

    Remeber what I said above?
    The real problem is irresponsible politicians that are pitting Americans and illegal aliens against each other.

    Irresponsible politicians created the problem.
    They let it get out of control.
    And they (by design) forced the burdens (over $70 billion per year) onto taxpayers.

    You can’t blame tax payers for not liking that.

    But, you also can much blame the illegal alien just lookin’ for a job.

    Irresponsible government is the problem.
    Stop re-electing them.

    Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 7:17 PM
    Comment #167283

    David S,

    If you don’t mind me saying so, your comments reveal too much emotion to be able to discuss the topic logically, without resorting to childish name calling and telling people where to go.

    You are simply revealing your frustration with the weakness of your arguments.

    And, it certainly does not increase your credibility.

    I never attacked you or greenstumped or 037.
    Just the facts.
    If you don’t like the facts, disprove them.

    Just like voter fraud.
    You appeared incredulous that such a thing was possible.
    Well it is.
    And, with some of the very close elections we’ve seen, it is an important issue.

    Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 7:24 PM
    Comment #167285

    You’re complaining about two separate issues. the government shouldn’t be supporting anyone, regrdaless of where they were born. Welfare should be capped, used only to get people through difficult circumstances, not live off of for their entire lives.

    that has nothing to do with whether or not people should be allowed to come to this country as they see fit. Of course you have to have screening to make sure terrorists and fellons aren’t setting up shop here, but everyone else should have a free pass. the argument of “let ‘em live with you” is baseless. You ahven’t made a valid point in the whole time we’ve been talking about this, Blame the politicians? What kind of cop out is that?

    Posted by: david S at July 13, 2006 7:25 PM
    Comment #167288
    David S wrote: Blame the politicians? What kind of cop out is that?

    David S,

    Seriously, calm down and open up your closed mind for a moment, and think about it.

    Irresponsible politicians are to blame, and are pitting Americans and illegal aliens against each other.

    It’s the same thing with the petty partisan warfare that politicians fuel.

    They exacerbated the problem every step of the way.

    And the “let them come live with you” is not baseless at all. It’s right to the point, because it costs someone. We can’t all live at the expense of someone else. That is another great myth perpetuated by irresponsible, pandering incumbent politicians.

    Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 7:32 PM
    Comment #167289
    You ahven’t made a valid point in the whole time we’ve been talking

    No? You sure about that?
    Or is your mind so closed, no one else is allowed an opinion ?

    Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 7:34 PM
    Comment #167291

    David S
    Say what you want to now. The Islamic people are replicating 18 times faster than all others. That means we may be only a generation away of having an Islamic nation. If you had your way it would be tomorrow. If we become an Islamic nation kiss all you own and want goodbye. You will be beheaded just for being what you are now. Well, if not beheaded some other form of terrorist type of death. So enjoy while you can David, there are rough days ahead and if you are not prepared, well, so long.

    Posted by: tomh at July 13, 2006 7:35 PM
    Comment #167300

    oh shit ! Who sold the Islamic people the replicator?? I bet it was the Chi coms…or the commie libs…now they will replicate like Tribbles

    Posted by: 037 at July 13, 2006 7:52 PM
    Comment #167301

    “that has nothing to do with whether or not people should be allowed to come to this country as they see fit”

    Wow! Just elaborate on exactly how you keep tabs on these people for taxes, prosecution, social welfare, mediacal benefits, etc. You’ve now just allowed people to come to america for their open heart surgery then leave? But they paid taxes one time 10 years ago, so what are they now entitled to?

    How much have you thought about your grand ideal of becoming a welfare state for 5 billion poor people who don’t speak English?

    Posted by: Kevin23 at July 13, 2006 8:05 PM
    Comment #167305

    Kevin23 and d.a.n.-

    the way you deal with those problems is not by removing the recipients of entitlements, but by removing the entitlements.

    tomh-

    The “problem” you bring up is one that is dealt with in just about every one of the first ten ammendments. And while you are now in the majority and would love to set some of thsoe rights aside, know that once you are the minority I will still support the same ideals of freedom that I do now. The Bill of Rights applies equally to everyone, and those rights should apply to everyone around the world, regardless of whether or not they immigrate here. Justice and equality do not recognize borders

    Posted by: David S at July 13, 2006 8:30 PM
    Comment #167306

    Kevin23

    We put a chip in them when they come out of the replicator tomh says they have, problem solved. We must know where they are when the tax man comes for god sakes. We aren’t taxing the rich and we need to tax somebody? We may need to prosecute them…which takes tax dollars…. to the fullest extent of the law I might add..but in the end we will get those illegal terrorist Islamic Mexicans…Can we out source this to India? Oh and I hate visiting my wife’s family all those Polish stores that don’t have a word of English on the signs (I feel like a stranger in a strange land) put there by citizens of this country, who fought in WW2..and…I’m sorry I lost track what is the they don’t speak no English argument again????

    Posted by: 037 at July 13, 2006 8:32 PM
    Comment #167307

    Kevin23-

    The holes that exist that would allow an immigrant to avoid paying taxes, FICA, social security, etc., exist for everyone else as well. A crime is a crime. It should be illegal to work without a social security number, and illegal to hire undocumented workers. But there should be no question as to whether or not someone with a clean record gets a social security number.

    Posted by: David S at July 13, 2006 8:38 PM
    Comment #167308

    No, David S

    You deal with these problems by not creating them in the first place. If they do exist attack the source. Attack those who employ them. Take away their ability to suck up resources by letting hospitals and schools say “no”.

    Otherwise, where is the personal accountability. Liberals have decided that we have to solve the problems by toothless policies. Guess what, if they never have any reason to fear losing something, nothing ever changes.

    Talk with any legal immigrant and ask them how they felt waiting 10 years to come here and pull their weight, while millions of illegal oppertunists get constitutional rights just because they broke the right law at the right time. Talk about injustice.

    Posted by: Kevin23 at July 13, 2006 8:41 PM
    Comment #167309

    “there should be no question as to whether or not someone with a clean record gets a social security number”

    Nice barrier to entry…and how do we know they are not criminals exactly? We can’t exactly trust their documents, home governments, and we can’t do background checks as they freely pour accross the border. Any ideas on that? Or is it on the honor system? After all, it would be “racist” to assume they are lying.

    Posted by: Kevin23 at July 13, 2006 8:45 PM
    Comment #167310

    David S

    Tell me why you are not the president of USA? Why you can not get into Harvard Univerisy? ( or you can tell me you a Harvard graduate!!). YOU HAVE TO EARN IT!! Being a LEGAL immigrant myself, I worked hard for 6 years, abiding the law, contribute to the society. I still haven’t got the citizenship. One day, if I can make it, I would be so proud to tell my friends that I have made it. It is a privilege to become a US citizen. If all the illegals becomes citizen it would be a slap to my face and the privilege of becoming the US citizen would go down to the drain. Why do I need to work hard when I can just cross the boarder? why we have to work 8 hours a day when we can just rob the bank? These people has no respect to the law. If you want a country that has no law, go live in middle east where people can shot you anytime

    Posted by: tomq at July 13, 2006 8:45 PM
    Comment #167315

    You don’t think that having a transient population creates entirely new tax holes David? Come on now, be real. They will be a different kind of citizen with especially high risks of default due to their very nature. What about trashing an apt then leaving. Does the landlord have to wait 10 years to sue? What about statutes of limitations? Do we have to write two sets of laws?

    There are way too many issues you haven’t even considered. Let alone the fact that the best forms of control are informal controls. Those don’t apply unless you respect society enough to become a full member..that means learning the language and going to social functions with people outside of your niche.

    Please elaborate for me how this system would work? And saying the same laws would apply is just nonsense.

    Posted by: Kevin23 at July 13, 2006 8:53 PM
    Comment #167316

    David S

    “When every one is an American, there is no American”. If you do not like being an American, leave and live somewhere else

    Posted by: tomq at July 13, 2006 8:55 PM
    Comment #167322

    Tomq-

    Nobody needs to leave because they feel differently in a bleeding heart kind of way. They just need to be pinned down on the costs of these grand ideals. If he has any kids, he should be hyper-sensative to the pain he’s inflicting on them by campaigning for open ended policy which has exponentially increasing costs associated with it. Or he may just want to close his eyes and keep repeating “I am not a racist.” Maybe that lets him sleep better at night.

    Posted by: Kevin23 at July 13, 2006 9:09 PM
    Comment #167363

    Mike Tate,
    Excellent post. Thanks for getting to the bottom of the Senate bill. Seems Kennedy and McCain are not doing us any favors writing laws like that.

    Posted by: j2t2 at July 13, 2006 10:34 PM
    Comment #167377

    j2t2,

    You’ve got it… extremely interesting that McCain, who is planning a bid for leader of this country, would support such a bill.

    Posted by: Mike Tate at July 13, 2006 10:49 PM
    Comment #167386

    TO SPEAK FOR THE IMMIGRANTS MY HUSBAND IS HERE ILEGALLY AND WE HAVE TWO LITTLE ONES. I WOULD LOVE FOR HIM TO BECOME A PERMANENT RESIDENT. I KNOW THAT HE DIDN’T DO THINGS THE RIGHT WAY,BUT HEY IT’S TO LATE.DO YOU THINK THAT HE SHOULD BE SEPERATED FROM HIS 3YR OLD AND 10 MONTH OLD? WE ARE A FAMILY JUST LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE. HOW WOULD YOU FEEL IF YOU WERE SEPERATED FROM YOUR FAMILY? NOT ALL IMMIGRANTS ARE BAD.I SEE MANY CRIMES ON THE TV THAT ARE COMMITTED BY CITIZENS, THERE ARE BAD SEEDS EVERYWHERE IN THE UNITED STATES, NO MATTER WHERE YOU ARE FROM OR WHAT YOU LOOK LIKE. WHILE YOU ALL ARE MAD ABOUT THIS IMMIGRATION ISSUE, I WORRY EVERYDAY THAT ONE DAY WHEN I COME HOME MY HUSBAND WILL NOT BE THERE WAITING FOR ME. SO PLEASE THINK ABOUT THAT!

    Posted by: FRIVE at July 13, 2006 11:10 PM
    Comment #167392

    Nobody said all immigrants are bad.
    The problem is abuse by many illegal aliens of social services, such as welfare, medicare, medicaid, social security, voting, schools, etc.

    But what should we tell the people that are waiting in line to come here legally … those that have waited their turn?

    Too bad, because you cut in line?

    What do we tell the American citizens that go to the ER , but it is overflowing with illegal aliens?

    What do we tell the U.S. children that catch turberculosis from illegal aliens?

    What do we tell the U.S. citizens that can’t receive welfare, healthcare, medicaid, etc., because the illegal aliens have so burdened those systems.

    Not all illegal aliens come here to merely look for a job. Especially since 32% of illegal aliens receive welfare, and 29% of all prisoners in all federal, state, county, and city prisons are illegal aliens.

    Your situation is unfortunate, but we must have more compassion for our fellow citizens who pay taxes for these social services and programs.

    You came here illegally.
    You disrespected our laws.
    Now you want us to turn our back on our own U.S. citizens?
    You want us to keep losing $70 billion per year (net losses) for systems and services abused by illegal aliens.

    Luckily for you, crooked, irresponsible politicians are on your side.

    Republicans want cheap labor (to exploit an underpaid underclass),
    and Democrats want votes.

    So, you’re in luck.

    You’ll probably receive amnesty or some quest-worker program permissions, and all immigrants trying to immigrate to the U.S. legally can go get in line behind all illegal aliens.

    Again, the main problem here is extremely incompetent, irresponsible, crooked, corrupt, and bought-and-paid-for incumbent politicians that fostered this entire problem.

    Irresponsible incumbent politicians are pitting Americans and illegal aliens against each other.

    SO PLEASE THINK ABOUT THAT!

    Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 11:32 PM
    Comment #167393

    FRIVE
    People hiding from authorities are continually looking over their shoulder until they get caught.

    David S
    You missed the point on Islamic replication. When they are in power in this country, you will find the Constitution of these United States shreded. There will be no 1-10 amendments to the Constitution, because it was shreded. It will be a godless state with criminals running the show. Just like the middle east.
    On the other hand, maybe the nation of Israel will deal them a blow that sets them back more than the 20 years probised Lebanon. That would be just fine with me.

    Posted by: tomh at July 13, 2006 11:33 PM
    Comment #167395

    Posted by: d.a.n at July 13, 2006 11:34 PM
    Comment #167401

    WELL LET’S SEE MY CHILDREN ARE U.S. CITIZENS I AM A U.S. CITIZEN,AND IF THEY TAKE MY HUSBAND AWAY THEN I WILL BE ON WELFARE. THEN I WILL BE YOUR PROBLEM, YOU WILL BE PAYING FOR MY FOOD AND CLOTHING AND RENT. I’D RATHER MY HUSBAND DO THAT AND I’M SURE YOU RATHER HIM DO IT TO. MY HUSBAND WAS ONLY FIFTEEN WHEN HE CAME HERE SO HE DIDN’T UNDERSTAND. IF I MET HIM WHILE HE LIVED IN HIS COUNTRY I WOULD HAVE DONE IT LEGALLY. BUT EVERYONE MAKES MISTAKES,ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU ARE ONLY FIFTEEN. I’M SURE YOU HAVE TO.THE ONLY REASON HE CAME OVER HERE WAS BECAUSE HE HAD NO MONEY OR CLOTHES OR FOOD.

    Posted by: FRIVE at July 13, 2006 11:50 PM
    Comment #167407

    FRIVE
    He had no money, clothes or food, yet he came here. Who financed his trip? The basic thing is he is here illegally. He will have to own up to his wrong doing. When you married him you had to know about his illegall immigration status. Just multiply this situation by millions and you see why people are upset about this problem.

    Posted by: tomh at July 14, 2006 12:06 AM
    Comment #167408

    FRIVE,

    That’s unfortunate, but it still does not justify cutting to the front of the line, and cheating those that are immigrating legally.

    Would you disagree with that ?

    And I do not believe that he did not “understand” it was illegal.

    Does your husband have a Social Security number?
    If he does have a Social Security number, how did he get it?
    Does he pay income taxes?
    Does he pay Medicare taxes?
    Does he have a driver’s license?
    Does he have auto insurance?
    If he is in an auto accident, can he (or his insurance) pay for the damages?
    Do you receive any welfare now?
    If he gets hurt, will he pay the bill at the E.R., or dump the bill onto U.S. tax payers?

    Because half of illegal aliens do not pay income taxes. That is an unfair advantage that displaces 2.3 million American workers.

    Why should Americans have more compassion for illegal aliens that disrespect our laws, than our fellow citizens that pay for the welfare, Medicaid, schools, ERs, hospitals, and prisons that are burdened by illegal aliens ?

    Posted by: d.a.n at July 14, 2006 12:14 AM
    Comment #167415

    I PAY MY TAXES EVERY YEAR HE PAYS MEDICARE AND TAXES THAT HE NEVER GETS BACK HE IS NOT ALLOWED TO GET MEDICARE OR DISABILITY.YOU ARE THE ONES THAT GET THAT.RIGHT SO WHEN YOU APPLY FOR WELFARE OR DISABILITY IT ALSO COMES OUT OF HIS POCKET BELIEVE ME I SEE HIS CHECK AND HE GETS MONEY DEDUCTED OUT OF IT JUST LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE. I PAY TAXES AND I DON’T CHOOSE WHO IT GOES TO,NEITHER DO YOU. I DON’T WANT MY MONEY GOING TO PEOPLE WHO DON’T CARE MUCH ABOUT ME
    . BUT WE HAVE TO. HE KNEW IT WAS WRONG BUT DIDN’T THINK IT WAS A BIG DEAL. HE JUST WANTED A FUTURE.YES I KNEW HE WAS HERE ILLEGALLY BUT WHEN YOU FALL IN LOVE WHAT DOES THEIR IMMIGRATION STATUS HAVE TO DO WITH THAT? PEOPLE WANT THEM GONE SO BAD BUT THEY ARE THE ONES THAT PROBABLY DO THEIR LANDSCAPING AND COOKING. WHO WILL DO IT FOR THEM WHEN THEY ARE GONE.

    Posted by: FRIVE at July 14, 2006 12:46 AM
    Comment #167417

    FRIVE
    Who will do it for them when they are gone?

    A person who has citizenship in this country.

    Posted by: tomh at July 14, 2006 12:57 AM
    Comment #167419

    I DOUBT THAT. WOULD YOU? BECAUSE I SURE WOULDN’T

    Posted by: FRIVE at July 14, 2006 1:00 AM
    Comment #167441

    Frive,

    So you’re saying there is no one out there who is a citizen who wouldn’t like to have a job, any job? I mean, we are that well off that we can just give away work to those who aren’t here legally?

    Funny, but I keep hearing how bad of an economy we have now and how the books are cooked and there are millions homeless and without work, etc…

    Posted by: Rhinehold at July 14, 2006 4:57 AM
    Comment #167453

    Frive, so since you are married to a illegal, and have 2 kids, we are to turn our back and let him become a citizen. Well you forgot to state one other thing you could do. Go back to his home country where ever it is with your kids and try to come back legally, or just stay there.
    As far as yard work, I do my own, I cook, my wife does the same if I need help, so not everyone hires a illegal to do it.
    It has been shown the illegals are a burden on the schools, medical, and legal system, but with the estimated 10-15 million here, according to you if they marry a legal citizen of the US then the should be made a legal citizen.
    I would like to see no Amesty program, guess worker maybe, hey if they show that they lived in the US for 5 or more years let them go back, take a number behind those already trying to do it legally(no cuts allowed), and wait.

    Posted by: KT at July 14, 2006 7:51 AM
    Comment #167456

    We elect these bastards from both political parties and then they proceed to represent their own bulging pockets instead of American voters. We need to get these criminals out of our country-the senators and their illegal aliens!

    Posted by: Reddogs at July 14, 2006 7:58 AM
    Comment #167461

    Reddogs,

    You have hit upon the real root of the problem.

    Irresponsible incumbent politicians created the problem, ignore the majority of Americans that want illegal immigration stopped, and worse of all … pit Americans and illegal aliens against each other.

    Consider FRIVE’s situation above.

    Irresponsible incumbent politicians are largely responsible for this problem.

    So, how bad does it have to get before Americans get off their lazy butts and start voting the irresponsible incumbent politicians out of their cu$hy, coveted seats of abused power ?

    If Americans are simply too lazy to do anything about this problem, like so many other pressing problems, then Americans deserve the consequences of their own laziness and negligence … especially if they keep re-electing those very same bought-and-paid-for, do-nothing, greedy, irresponsible incumbent politicians.

    We have sold out ourselves, and we are are being crushed by the weight of our own laziness and negligence.

    Perhaps we sold ourselves out long ago, and we are merely, now, witnessing the transfer of assets ? We, the voters, are also responsible, because we keep re-electing the very same people that use and abuse us.

    No reforms are possible until one fundamental change is made first. All voters need to do is the one simple, common-sense, no-brainer, non-partisan, safe, peaceful, inexpensive, and responsible thing voters were supposed to be doing all along:


    Vote out (or recall) all irresponsible incumbents, always, every election, until no more irresponsible incumbents exist, and government finally agrees to pass the many badly-needed, common-sense, responsible reforms that incumbents have refused to pass for so many decades.


    As for the illegal immigration problem, here’s a practical solution. We can’t easily deport 10 million illegal aliens, but most will leave if there are no magnets here.

    THE SOLUTION:

    Since some (irresponsible incumbent politicians and greedy employers who exploit an underpaid underclass) in the U.S. practically invited illegal aliens here, we should show some compassion.

    Making illegal aliens felons for merely being here illegally is not the solution.

    Secure the borders immediately (with a mere 5.9% (i.e. 153,000 border patrol) of the total 2.6 million military, guard, and reserves).

    Require enforcement of all immigration laws. Enforce the existing laws.

    Require deportation of ALL illegal entries and visa overstays currently within our jails and prisons (i.e. within our custody).

    Require ALL employers to use the Social Security Verification System for ALL hires. Prosecute violators.

    Deny ALL illegal alien births automatic citizenship. Stop the abuse of anchor babies to acquire Blue Passports.

    Deny ALL illegal aliens a FREE K-12 education.

    Deny ALL illegal aliens ANY and ALL public benefits (welfare, Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, etc.), except Emergency healthcare

    Deny ALL illegal aliens driver’s licenses.

    Deny ALL illegal aliens college tuition.

    Verify ALL voter’s citizenship, before permission to vote. Biometrics could be helpful.

    Provide $500 (per person) and pre-paid transportation to each illegal alien volunteering to leave the U.S.

    With no more magnets (no jobs, welfare, education, etc.), the remaining illegal aliens will leave voluntarily. Allow all illegal aliens to leave on their own, with their own property. Those wishing to immigrate to the U.S. must get in line behind those already seeking to immigrate legally.

    … AND …

    • Stop Repeat Offenders.
    • Don’t Re-Elect Them !
    Posted by: d.a.n at July 14, 2006 8:37 AM
    Comment #167463

    FRIVE,
    Why must you go on welfare?
    Are you unable to work?
    There are lots of other American women that are single parents that support their family without welfare.
    Why do you threaten your fellow Americans with going on welfare?
    Clearly, you can not be objective.
    You made the decision to choose a husband that is an illegal alien.
    But don’t worry.
    Irresponsible, bought-and-paid-for, greedy, FOR SALE, do-nothing incumbent politicians are on your side.
    America has sold itself out, because they keep re-electing the very same incumbent politicians.

    Posted by: d.a.n at July 14, 2006 8:44 AM
    Comment #167483

    I hate this new law. The only improvements we should make are increasing the number of 3000 immigrants to 5000. The rest should be on tracking down the illegal ALIENS and KEEPING THEM OUT!!!!!

    Posted by: stubborn conservative at July 14, 2006 10:34 AM
    Comment #167500

    It’s very clear that people like Frive have the luxury at present to do whatever they like with no personal consequences. There is the problem. Now she fears having to be accountable. It is no different than a junkie getting up in arms over drug sniffing dogs being used in traffic stops. Nobody likes having to give something they’ve enjoyed for so long back. Well, Frive, you’ve got a loophole, enjoy it. But I say you should be held accountable for your actions.

    I don’t even care that it was “love” - I “love” my country … you can both get deported and still have your “love” to fall back on. If illegals run a neighborhood into the ground, what is left? A third world neighborhood that only bulldozers can clean up. Oh and a bill.

    Also, I plan on doing what all my ancestors have always done and put my kids to work in the yard. We really don’t need to take the easy way out any more. Rich a—holes can afford to pay kids or legitimate crews $15/hr to do landscaping, and other people need to stop moving into houses they can’t maintain. We don’t need cheap labor at all costs.

    I just don’t think it is too much to ask to obey our laws and respect the common threads of our society (you know, those things that make it work like being able to communicate) in order to qualify for immigration consideration. And if you do not do these things and still built a life atop a foundation of wrongdoing, then don’t cry when it all comes crashing down. Try building on a legitimate foundation like everyone else in this world must. PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY!!!

    Posted by: Kevin23 at July 14, 2006 11:45 AM
    Comment #167504

    Wow, the bile is really flying on this one. Because I respect the Rules For Participation, I’m not going to name names, but some people here really need to get over it. What we need to do first is quit buying into the bullshit hurled at us by our so called “representitives” and figure out that immigration, whether legal or illegal, needs to be seperated from border security. We need to gain control of our borders NOW to keep out terrorists and lower the risk of the reemergence of diseases that we’ve gotten rid of. Obviously the illegal immigration issue will remain, but they aren’t going anywhere. Instead of trying this in an election year which has given us two radically different bills that won’t get passed and ends up doing nothing, we should wait until the election and give the new (I certainly hope we see a lot of new faces this time around) Congress a fresh start on immigration policy. In the meantime, secure the damned border.

    As far as immigration goes, a few things. While there were large waves of immigration in the past, they came legally. We should encourage legal immigration, especially for well educated people who can bring talent and marketable skills along with their own experiences to enhance our democracy. Its been my observation that new citizens appreciate and respect our institutions far more than many citizens who were born here and lived here thier whole lives as they don’t take for granted the rights and benefits our society can offer.

    Illegal immigrants should be given some means of obtaining citizenship provided they can pass all of the requirements we require of legal immigrants and pay fines for entering the country illegally. Learning English should be emphasized as an absolute requirement with a time limit placed on gaining a grasp of the language. I doubt that even the most optomistic deportation fanatic is going to relish defending the largest forced relocation since the Holocaust.

    Posted by: 1LT B at July 14, 2006 12:01 PM
    Comment #167507

    If they want to skip ahead of the line, by sneaking in ilegally, they should be allowed to do so but pay a fine….a nice big fat fine.
    Like maybe enough to pay off the National Debt.
    i would consider that as an option, otherwise get in line behind the 100Million or so waiting to get here legally.

    Posted by: Joe at July 14, 2006 12:08 PM
    Comment #167510

    1LT B

    That’s pretty good.

    Yes, I agree that mass deportation is not practical or ethical (with exception of criminal illegal aliens; those guilty of crimes other than illegal immigration itself).

    The magnets must be eliminated.
    Greedy employers should be prosecuted.
    Accurate IDentification is needed (biometrics? to identify repeat offenders, false documentation, etc.).

    I think it would be helpful to even help pay for transportation and travel for those volunteering to leave.

    If the magnets are eliminated (e.g. education, welfare, Medicaid, Social Security, no taxation, etc.), many will leave voluntarily.

    If something is not done, many of the abused systems will continue to suffer (or fail).

    84 hospitals have closed in California because they have been overrun by illegal aliens.
    ERs are swamped with illegal aliens, while U.S. citizens wait (and die).

    Our prisons are full of illegal aliens (29% of all inmates are illegal aliens).

    32% of illegal aliens receive welfare.

    Many illegal aliens even vote in our elections.
    With elections that are as close as we have seen (e.g. the Presidential eleciton of year 2000), that’s an important issue.

    American citizens are being forced to accomodate illegal aliens to the tune of over $70 billion per year, and that does not even include the untold cost of crime, disease, and 2.3 million Americans displaced from their jobs.

    Lastly though.
    The object is not to demonize illegal aliens merely looking for a job.
    It’s hard to be too upset about that.

    The real problem is that irresponsible incumbent politicians have created and fostered this problem, because they want cheap labor and new votes. They (sinisterly) think we can use immigrants to immigrate our way out of our economic problems.

    Polls show the majority of Americans want the borders secured, and an end to the abuse of our schools, hospitals, welfare, Medicaid, law enforcement, ERs, and voting systems (costing a net loss of over $70 billion per year). The average American is not reaping the benefits of the labor of illegal aliens. It is mostly the greedy employers of illegal aliens that are profiting. Greedy employers and corrupt incumbent politicians have forced the majority of Americans (who don’t like it) to carry the burden. It’s a form of theft and hidden taxation. The pie can’t be made big enough to let everyone immigrate to the U.S. Before long, there would be nothing left for anyone, and the horde would move again, and descend upon the next target. Massive, uncontrolled immigration is bad for everyone. Legal, controlled immigraiton is OK, but massive, uncontrolled immigration breeds crime, racism, chaos, and societal disorder.

    Posted by: d.a.n at July 14, 2006 12:29 PM
    Comment #167513

    I love the solutions you people propose. Deny them education, deny them non-emergency healthcare, deny them employment. All of these solutions assume you can keep track of who si and who isn’t illegal, which is the same problem you foudn with my solutions. Biometrics??? Paging Mr. Orwell.

    Until you deal with the actual problem, and not just the negative side effects that interfere with your life, the problem will manifest itself in some other way. People in other parts of the world do not have enough. We sit here with more trash in our dumpsters than some people have food. We spend more money on entertainment and distractions than some people have to live off. Until these inequities are dealt with in a meaningful manner, probelms of the poor will continue to manifest as problems for the rich, the rich in turn will dump these problems on the middle class.

    Posted by: David S at July 14, 2006 12:33 PM
    Comment #167521

    First our constitution is only for LEGAL US RESIDENTS.
    Second imigration control has been part of country for decades. Nearly all countries in the world have imigration controls. The reason for this is maintain one countries identity.

    Posted by: Anthony at July 14, 2006 12:49 PM
    Comment #167522
    Until these inequities are dealt with in a meaningful manner, probelms of the poor will continue to manifest as problems for the rich, the rich in turn will dump these problems on the middle class.

    Now that’s the most intelligent thing you’ve said.

    But, allowing wide open, massive immigration (legal or illegal) is a recipe for disaster.

    Massive uncontrolled immigration will breed crime, racism, chaos, and societal disorder.

    If IDentification is necessary, only biometrics is likely to provide a cheap and efficient method. As it is now, illegal aliens can easily purchase fake documents, get fake Social Security numbers, collect welfare, and abuse a number of social services, including voting in our elections.

    David S,
    We’ll have to agree to disagree.
    Wide-open borders, and massive, uncontrolled immigration is a recipe for disaster, because that would turn a few million per year into tens or hundreds of millions per year, and everybody would lose.

    We can’t all live at the expense of everyone else.

    For all the bleedin’ hearts that want wide-open borders, we should start a immigration program in which immigrants can come live with them, make themselves at home, settle in, invite a few friends, perhaps invite their 50 closest relatives. Then we’ll see how far their generosity goes. It’s easy to be a generous bleedin’ heart when it costs someone else. Well, someone has to pay.

    Posted by: d.a.n at July 14, 2006 12:50 PM
    Comment #167523

    There is nothing wrong with refusing to give illegals free education or healthcare. I also say we revoke the anchor baby law. Also we do have a way of regulating illegals. Social Security Cards with ID cards. Just make it impossible for people to recieve a ID card without a valid SSN. Its pretty simple.

    Posted by: Anthony at July 14, 2006 12:54 PM
    Comment #167525

    fines and money. in america all things are bought and sold including citizenship. Are you sure we are the good guys in the war on terror? sometimes I pause and wonder. Is there any “good guy” nation left in the world? ………No.

    Posted by: blogthing at July 14, 2006 12:55 PM
    Comment #167531

    So many solutions and David S. can’t accept a single one as viable. His mind is like concrete, thoroughly mixed and permanently set.

    Everything is “racism”. That kind of talk makes me wonder if he is not a republican pretending to be a warm hearted liberal because he ceratinly harms his cause with each post he makes.

    Posted by: G.K. at July 14, 2006 1:34 PM
    Comment #167535

    The only thing that I said was racist was Kevin23 not wanting “those people” in his neighborhood, and I stand by that.

    d.a.n.-

    I got it. Invite them over. Relatives. 50 friends. Where are you getting your talking points from? You keep repeating the same tired mantras over and over, and what it boils down to is greed, plain and simple. We have more than enough to go around in this country, more than enough for two countries this size, but only if everyone accepts that it is wrong to be wealthy when anyone is starving. I know this goes gainst all of your perceptions of what the “American Dream” is, but you are wrong. How anyone can justify buying a multi-million dollar palace when there are people starving in the streets is beyond me. They’ll have to answer to a higher power eventually. Read Matthew 19:16-21.

    Posted by: David S at July 14, 2006 1:47 PM
    Comment #167537

    Further, I agree (for once) with 1LT B that border security needs to be a priority for national security reasons. I don’t believe that people should be able to just come and go as they please, but I don’t believe anyone should be denied access to this country and the opportunities it provides based on quotas. Building a fence is political pandering. Amnesty is political pandering. But the real solution does not lie in hardline nationalism, but in a welcoming world view.

    Posted by: David S at July 14, 2006 1:55 PM
    Comment #167538

    Kevin is not racist. He’s just voicing his opinion. Besides Mexicans are not a race its a nationality. (I’m hispanic)
    Now to the “American Dream”. People dont starve in America. I know this is going to catch some flak but it doesnt happen. He have enough welfare balances that you will be given food and shelter if you wish to have it. The American dream does not mean rags to richs. People fail in America too. But the American Dream and capitalism as a whole offers people the opportunity to succeed. Does everyone no. But the ability to is there. That ability is not there in other nations. I do not and will not feel bad that I have a new car and a new house. I worked hard for it and I suffered. I ate top ramen for years before it happened. Not everyone who suceeds was born with a silver spoon. I will not accept your premise becuase life is not fair and liberals need to know that.

    Posted by: Anthony at July 14, 2006 1:58 PM
    Comment #167541

    Kevin is not racist. He’s just voicing his opinion. Besides Mexicans are not a race its a nationality. (I’m hispanic)
    Now to the “American Dream”. People dont starve in America. I know this is going to catch some flak but it doesnt happen. He have enough welfare balances that you will be given food and shelter if you wish to have it. The American dream does not mean rags to richs. People fail in America too. But the American Dream and capitalism as a whole offers people the opportunity to succeed. Does everyone no. But the ability to is there. That ability is not there in other nations. I do not and will not feel bad that I have a new car and a new house. I worked hard for it and I suffered. I ate top ramen for years before it happened. Not everyone who suceeds was born with a silver spoon. I will not accept your premise becuase life is not fair and liberals need to know that.

    Posted by: Anthony at July 14, 2006 2:06 PM
    Comment #167547

    David S.,

    I work hard to feed my family of four and happen to be quite happy. That happens to be my American Dream and I wish that for my kids. I can barely afford to pay taxes now and can’t imagine how my family would survive under a country that allows every person who can make it accross the border as you propose.

    You don’t think that allowing people to become as rich as they want helps the economy which in turn is good for everyone? I wouldn’t work my butt off if I knew that no matter what I did, my salary would be capped. Hell, why would I want to work if nice guys like you are going to give me access to everything you have worked for.

    And Kevin23 has a right to want to clean up his neighborhood. If they are crack dealers or prostitutes or rich white suburbanite prep school vandals who have too much time on their hands, it doesn’t matter. Just because the problems in his area happens to be caused by “hispanics” does not make him racist for standing up to it. It makes him a good neighbor and a good citizen.

    -GK

    Posted by: G.K. at July 14, 2006 2:19 PM
    Comment #167560
    Dave S wrote: … but only if everyone accepts that it is wrong to be wealthy when anyone is starving. … They’ll have to answer to a higher power eventually. Read Matthew 19:16-21.

    Dave S,

    That’s interesting.
    How revealing.
    That’s very generous of you to be generous with other people’s money and property.
    It’s all clear now.

    Like I said, we’ll have to agree to disagree.

    People should not be able to trespass our borders.
    What you want is Utopia, but what your plan would create is massive chaos.
    You are not being realistic in the least.
    In your Utopia, it wouldn’t be Utopia for long, because illegal aliens would always descend upon the ripest target, use it up, mess it up for everyone, and everyone would have to flee, searching for another target to descend upon.
    That’s what history shows us.
    Massive, uncontrolled immigration (legal or not) creates societal disorder, chaos, and trouble of all kinds.
    You dream of a borderless world where all can come and go when and where they like, but that is pure fancy. You fail to acknowledge reality, and a basic fact about human nature.

    A nation can never prosper if it is always a target of illegal aliens looking for a better place to plunder. And plunder (theft) is exactly what it is. Theft of our welfare, Medicaid, healthcare, ER services, education, votes.

    And telling me to Read Matthew 19:16-21 is meaningless to me, since I am agnostic. But, your presumption that everyone believes as you do is quite revealing again.

    G.K. wrote: … mind is like concrete, thoroughly mixed and permanently set.
    That’s a good one. : )

    David S,
    You say there should be no entitlements? And, then there would be no services to be abused.

    That’s some interesting logic.
    So, to you, any nation that has public services is the problem?
    Not those that steal and defraud those services?
    Not the 32% of all illegal aliens that receive welfare?
    And what about illegal aliens driving around without auto-insurance?
    What about the increased crime rates?
    Homicides by illegal aliens are almost double the norm. Increased crime rates is a typical result of massive, uncontrolled illegal immigration.

    In Los Angeles (year 2004), 95% of over 1200 outstanding warrants for homicide and 67% of 17,000 fugitive felony warrants are for illegal aliens.

    12/31/2002: Six-month figures revealed a 3.3% increase in violent crime in California, including a 16% rise in homicides, over the same span in 2001.

    PHOENIX: Television and radio stations began running ads in the Valley last week, paid for by the Coalition United to Secure America, attributing the 45% increase in homicides and 41% increase in home invasions to illegal aliens. Phoenix Police Department reports confirm those figures and Sgt. Tony Morales believes there is no doubt that the statistics are tied to illegal aliens.

    In 2001, 87% of deportable aliens who received run letters later disappeared; a number that was even higher (94%) for illegal aliens from terror-sponsoring countries.

    According to statistics by the Salt Lake City Police Department (and verified by an independent study), 80% of all drug crimes in the City are committed by illegal aliens. In Salt Lake County, the equivalent number is 50%. That’s why Congressman Cannon is on the Immigration Subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee. He is working to insure that interior states, like Utah, are not overlooked in the war on illegal immigration.

    Still, I need to keep reminding everyone, this problem was created by irresponsible politicians.

    They created and fueled the situation.

    Now, irresponsible, FOR-SALE, bought-and-paid-for incumbent politicians are pitting Americans and illegal aliens against each other.

    Republicans want cheap labor,
    and Democrats want new votes,
    and American voter gets the bill.

    Americans should not take it out on the average illegal alien that merely comes to find work.

    But Americans should hold their irresponsible, corrupt incumbent politicians accountable, and vote them out of their cu$hy, coveted seats of power that they have so shamefully abused.

    Posted by: d.a.n at July 14, 2006 2:50 PM
    Comment #167576

    “How anyone can justify buying a multi-million dollar palace when there are people starving in the streets is beyond me”

    They justify it by saying its everybody elses job to take care of those people.
    Don’t believe me?
    Just ask clooney, soros, gore, kerry, heinz, clinton, moore, pelosi, boxer etc…

    Posted by: kctim at July 14, 2006 3:53 PM
    Comment #167590
    How anyone can justify buying a multi-million dollar palace when there are people starving in the streets is beyond me

    Once you start down that slippery slope, who is to say what is enough for any person?

    If someone has too much, are we supposed to take some of what they have away from them?

    If U.S. taxpayers create social services and entitlements (e.g. welfare, Medicaid, Social Security, Medicare, schools, hospitals, ERs, prisons, law enforcement, and voting systems), must they be forced to share it with the rest of those in the world that have less ?

    Does this sound communistic, or socialistic?

    But the funny thing is, all those that talk about what we all ought to do, actually reveal their hypocrisy when they obviously are unwilling to put their own money where there mouth is.

    Their hypocrisy is always so easily revealed.

    That is one of the common exuses used.

    It is the Humanitarianism Excuse , just one of many excuses commonly used:

    Tradition:
    MYTH: As George Bush said: “We are a land of immigrants”. We can not pull up the drawbridge now, unless we dismantle the Statue of Liberty. Otherwise, we are all hypocrites.
    TRUTH: This is a common ploy. Yes, we are a land of immigrants. Mostly legal. We are enriched by legal immigration; not by massive, uncontrolled, illegal immigration.
    Economics:
    MYTH: The U.S. will crumble without illegal aliens. We need immigrants to pay the Social Security of the Baby Boomers when they begin to retire. Immigrants do jobs citizens won’t do. Who would pick our produce? Who would make the beds and wash the dishes?
    TRUTH: This is a common myth, since illegal aliens are costing U.S. tax payers a net loss of at least $70 billion per year. $70 billion will pick a lot of vegetables and fruit, eh?
    Humanitarianism:
    MYTH: You are selfish to put the needs of poor citizens ahead of more desperate people in other nations, by denying them entry into our country. The U.S. is obligated to share with others. Large-scale immigration is a significant way for the U.S. to help the impoverished people of the world.
    TRUTH: It is also selfish to forget to show compassion for your fellow citizens that go without because illegal aliens have stolen from and burdened our welfare, Medicaid, education, healthcare, hospital, E.R., Medicare, Social Security, law enforcement, prison, insurance, and voting systems.
    Diversity:
    MYTH: Increasing diversity through immigration is necessary to be true to our civil rights principles. Opposition to illegal immigration is racist. We are obligated to accommodate millions of immigrants per year because our strength is our diversity; the diversity of immigrants made America great. And, Christopher Columbus was the first illegal alien, and we stole the land from the Indians.
    TRUTH: That is the old stand-by. You are a racist. However, race has nothing to do with it since illegal aliens are of all races from all over the world. Diversity is good, but massive, uncontrolled, illegal immigration itself leads to racism due to chaos, societal disorder, resentments, and increased competition for a slice of a shrinking pie.
    Irredentism:
    MYTH: We have no right to secure U.S. borders, because U.S. borders are illegitimate to start with. The U.S. really belongs to the Indians and other neighboring nations, to start with.
    TRUTH: This is another lame argument. If you want to use that logic, we should all give back all of our nations to the original inhabitants, or their ancestors. This lame argument is just one of many that demonstrate how weak all of the pro-illegal alien arguments are.
    Cornucopianism:
    MYTH: The free market and technology will save us. We are the land of plenty. Besides, we need illegal aliens to grow out of our massive debt problems. They will become new tax payers, and we can grow our way out of debt.
    TRUTH: Even if that were true, does it justify using an under-paid underclass to remedy our debt problems? This simply does not make sense, since illegal aliens are costing U.S. taxpayers net losses of over $70 billion per year.
    Globalism:
    MYTH: We live in a global economy now, requiring new global solutions. Securing the U.S. borders is futile, since it is inadequate to deal with globalization.
    TRUTH: With increasing competition abroad, growing corporatism and corpocrisy, an increasingly irresponsible, bought-and-paid-for, elitist government, we can not grow, tax, or immigrate enough to eliminate our fiscal problems.
    Practicality:
    MYTH: It is not possible to deport 12+ million illegal aliens.
    TRUTH: There is no need to deport illegal aliens. We can help deport those that volunteer to be deported, but once the magnets are eliminated, illegal aliens will leave voluntarily.

    Posted by: d.a.n at July 14, 2006 5:10 PM
    Comment #167594

    David S-

    When I say “those people”, did I not mean the illegal immigrants who refuse to adapt? Or did you just assume I meant “all mexicans”. Please find where I refered to all mexican people or hispanics or any other ethnic group as “those people.”

    Your taking issue with this is very comical. Comedians joke abut bleeding hearts doing this very thing all the time. Or about black people immediately being offended by the words “you people” when something entirely different was meant. You actually try to use a common joke to make a serious point? Nice, but it is still a joke and an utterly rediculous stretch of the truth.

    Posted by: Kevin23 at July 14, 2006 5:36 PM
    Comment #167595

    By the way David S, I’m still dying to know what exactly makes me a racist? You conveniently forget you did that? Or just forgot why?

    Posted by: Kevin23 at July 14, 2006 5:37 PM
    Comment #167596

    A quote from David S:

    “I love the solutions you people propose.”

    What do you mean by “you people”?

    Posted by: Kevin23 at July 14, 2006 5:39 PM
    Comment #167600

    GK-

    Thank you for seeing my intentions for what they are. I see real problems in LA. I don’t know about other places outside of CA, but we have special problems along the mexican border that do not exist in other immigration hotbeds like NYC for example. Read my first post for details. I’ve lived on both coasts, and I’ve seen the difference. It’s huge.

    No one can honestly say they are anti-illegal immigration, while at the same time be in favor of keeping the “magnet” benefits open to them. They (David S, by “they” I mean ILLEGAL ALIENS) need to know on a personal level that they are taking a real risk by breaking the law. Can anyone tell me how this new proposed law makes them personally accountable for their illegal actions (and effectively screwing all the legitimate people waiting in line) if it doesn’t even require them to give anything up?

    Posted by: Kevin23 at July 14, 2006 5:50 PM
    Comment #167753

    DAVID
    As a person from Idaho I am very offended that peaple still beleive that we are all Arien and FYI .I have chased off the fools when they tried to place their Propaganda in my car. I am an Idahoian And American cititzian first. As for the Jobs that “americans won’t do you should name a few because I can name at least a dozen peaple whom do those jobs.We will not do them for TWO DOLLARS an hour. WHY MUST america support the cowards of the World Ten million peaple will stand up in my Nation and demand Rights they do not deserve yet do not have the COURAGE to stand up in their own country and tell their goverment that they (THE ILLEGAL ALIENS) are tired of being miss treated and want change. they are COWARDs. If the USA went to full scale war how many would stand up and be counted? They did not do it in their own nation.Maybe you should be less apt to call your fellow Americans racists when you remember that many have joined the Service to protect what illegals enjoy.yes I did 3years in the army.You say Nationalism is bad well I must be the Anti christ because I am Damn proud to be AMERICAN. Maybe you should move to Iran so yuou can be with the rest of your KIND.Haters of AMERICA.
    Goddess bless our TROOPS

    Posted by: Leeroy at July 15, 2006 3:46 AM
    Comment #167956

    Taxation without representation. I think this statement fits today just like it did over 200 hundred years ago.The British taxes then, a much less percentage of the wages than our own government is taxing us now.
    The citizens of the United States Of America are being sold out. Family members and ancestors who served or died in conflicts for freedom have been sold out.I don’t remember my grandfather telling me he went to war to help secure the future of illegal immigrants. Illegal( Il = not not legal) not legal= breaking the law (breaking the law = criminal)Criminals go to jail simple

    Posted by: Kevin at July 16, 2006 1:53 AM
    Comment #168058

    Common-Sense Tax Reform

    But, common-sense, no-brainer reforms are futile until voters peacefully force government to be Responsible and Accountable too!

    How?

    Well one thing is for damn sure.
    It isn’t be continually re-electing corrupt, irresponsible, bought-and-paid-for incumbent politicians. Vote ‘em out. That’s what voters were supposed to be doing all along.

    Posted by: d.a.n at July 16, 2006 2:53 PM
    Comment #168113

    So your saying it’s not the governments fault for being corrupt, its the citizens fault for electing them. I’m sure if the citizens knew the politians true colors before the election the vote would not have been placed.But welcome to the real world d.a.n., the people have been making what each thought was the right vote from the beginning. It’s the gray area of government that never changes. Doesn’t depend on which party is in power. It’s a deeper corruption that corrupts or neuters even the decent elected officials. No, “peacefully force” by voting as you state it has been tried many times before you thought of it.

    Posted by: Kevin at July 16, 2006 10:30 PM
    Comment #168212

    Kevin,

    The problem is voters lazily re-electing irresponsible incumbents, over and over.

    Education is needed to motivate voters.

    Pain and misery is a good educator and motivator.

    Giving up won’t accomplish anything.

    When things get bad enough, voters will get interested. The sooner the better, because the longer we’re off course, the harder and longer it is to get back on course.

    The process is slow of course.
    It’s 2 steps forward, and 1.999 steps backward.
    But there has been some progress over the last 5000 years.

    It’s also a common cycle:

    How will you help your children and future generations. The only logical thing to do is hope, and try, because nobody knows if the demise of the U.S. will continue, and giving up will never accomplish anything. If too many give up, it will guarantee failure.

    Also, there is a prescendent for voters getting fed up from time to time, and voting out a large percentage of incumbents. The next thing voters need to learn is that they should ALWAYS vote out irresponsible incumbents, ALWAYS. Not just once in a great while. Keep the good ones (if any), but ALWAYS vote out the bad ones.

    Here’s what we need … until politicians start behaving responsibily, and earning their incumbency …

    Posted by: d.a.n at July 17, 2006 12:05 PM
    Comment #168240

    Don’t be a pacifist to long d.a.n.. Have you heard of the plans signed by our president for the North American Union ( North American Union ) We do not have the luxury of waiting for change by election even if it would help.Remember the gray area of government, doesn’t matter what party is in power. Nice graphs though, one thing I have found is statistics can be found to back any opinion.

    Posted by: Kevin at July 17, 2006 1:42 PM
    Comment #168852

    The Great Depression reduced illegal immigration.
    That’s what will soon happen again.
    Things take a long time, which fools most.
    It’s two steps forward and 1.999 steps backward.
    We will have to learn the hard way (again).
    Pain and misery is an effective educator.
    Pain and misery appears to be the only motivation we understand.

  • Posted by: d.a.n at July 19, 2006 2:02 PM
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