Gaza Strike Continues

As Israel’s military incursion into Gaza continues today, the Hamas-led Palestinian government has thrown its support behind the terrorists’ demand for a prisoner swap with Israel.

According to a statement issued by the Palestinian Information Ministry (PIM), it is "natural logic" to carry out an exchange.

"This has been exercised by previous Israeli governments with Hezbollah and the PLO, and this is what other countries do in conflict situations," the statement said.

The PIM's statement is partially correct: Palestinian terrorists have been able to secure such concessions from Israel in the past (normally in exchange for the lifeless body of an Israeli soldier or civilian). The statement further illustrates the Palestinians' growing reliance on terrorism in order to secure Israeli concessions.

According to a new poll, Palestinian support for terrorism is reaching new highs:

Support for armed attacks against Israeli civilians inside Israel continues to rise. Today 56% support it and 42% oppose it. Support for such attacks stood at 52% last March and 40% last December while opposition stood at 45% and 58% respectively. Similarly, findings show that support for the bombing attack that took place last April stood at 69% and opposition at 27%.

It's worth noting that Hamas threw its support behind the April attack as well.

Why the rising support for terrorism among Palestinians?

In recent years, the efforts of terrorist regimes have been followed by major concessions on Israel's behalf. Of course, it's not so simple as to say that terrrorism yields benefits, but for your average Palestinian, it sure seems that way.

The recent election of Hamas, meanwhile, further demonstrates that Palestinians are increasingly identifying with the "terrorism yields benefits" logic. After all, in the two decades since Hamas' founding, the organization has become the bedrock of the Palestinian terrorist movement. Moreover, Hamas' run for elective office was based on a simple platform: the Jews are our enemies and Israel must be destroyed. (For more, visit the Hamas Charter.)

By now, the Palestinians must be realizing the err in their logic. Gaza was given, not returned, to the Palestinian people as a test run of sorts. There was ample time for the Palestinians and their government to denounce terrorism. Instead, the Palestinian public stood by while their government and compatriots continued to launch attacks at Israel. Only when Israel responded to attacks did the Palestinians voice their opposition -- and that opposition was solely directed at Israel. They failed to pressure their government into altering its terrorist ways and for that they are complicit in each terrorist attack that has taken place.

As I write this post, Gaza is flooded with one of the most awesome military forces throughout the world. The Palestinian people have brought hell upon themselves and they alone can end it. Three Israelis are believed to be held captive by Palestinian terrorists and the Israeli government has declared that only their safe return will end this current conflict. I suggest that the Palestinians discontinue their support for Hamas' call for a prisoner swap and, instead, demand the captives' safe release.

Related Articles: "Make Them Pay" and "Are You Listening, Assad?"

Posted by Dr Politico at June 28, 2006 3:43 PM
Comments
Comment #162857

Isn’t Israel being extremely aggressive over here ? They destroyed bridges and the only power plant in that city. More than a million people’s lives’ over there would probably be pretty miserable right now. No power, no water, impending siege of the city, airplanes flying overhead and dropping bombs here and there. Isn’t the Palestinian leadership right in calling this a ‘collective punishment’ ? Why should innocent folks (many of them small children) suffer and die because 1 soldier got kidnapped by a bunch of thugs / terrorists ? This has got to be one of the most stupid and inhumane actions.

Posted by: xx at June 28, 2006 4:36 PM
Comment #162859

Isreal also “buzzed the tower” by flying through syrian airspace.

That area is a tinderbox waiting to explode. And Isreal for the most part is more willing to flex its muscle than others…

Might be time to grab that shovel and start digging a big hole in my backyard, stocking up on canned foods and whatnot…

Posted by: b0mbay at June 28, 2006 4:37 PM
Comment #162869

I don’t want to live the way the middle East lives… seriously. Is there a way to keep that from happening?

What if we just simply get our “addiction” to oil & natural gas (and their sole source on financing this crap), and then let them all fight their wars with what little they can scrap together. This is the center point of all world religions, the axis of three major continents, and the center of the world’s “single” source of energy. (i.e., hatred of each other since time began and loaded with cash… bad bad bad bad bad bad bad situation.)

Posted by: tony at June 28, 2006 4:52 PM
Comment #162873

Amen Tony, amen.

Posted by: kctim at June 28, 2006 4:56 PM
Comment #162891

I agree a 110% with you Tony!

Posted by: Christina at June 28, 2006 5:56 PM
Comment #162906

“Live every day as if it were your last.”

Works great for fortune cookies, but other than that, it sucks!

Posted by: tony at June 28, 2006 6:42 PM
Comment #162909

Israel has to flex its muscle’s when terrorists do these types of things. They live in the middle of an ant bed. If they don’t flex, they would soon be no more.

Posted by: Yankee Dawg at June 28, 2006 6:43 PM
Comment #162916

This is precisely what the word ‘escalation’ means in the real world.

If Bush had provided even a token of backing for the Democratically elected Hamas Government, things might not have gotten this desperate. But, his abject fear of terrorists prevents his ability to engage in diplomacy or compromise with Hamas even in the hope of steering them away from terrorist activity. Of course, now we will never know if it would have improved the situtation. This is called Bush’s preemptive failure execution. Similar to his plan for Iraq.

Posted by: David R. Remer at June 28, 2006 7:02 PM
Comment #162917

This flareup has absolutely nothing to do with the kidnapped soilder.Not anymore.By trying to draw Syria into the conflict, Israel is only making a bad situation worse.Any sane person will surely agree that this vicious cycle will never end without the total annihilation of one side.

Posted by: john doe at June 28, 2006 7:04 PM
Comment #162918

XX

Israel is not randomly bombing buildings they are taking out terror training camps and other hamas areas. Just because the Palestinian government says it is collective punishment does not mean that it is. Remember Hamas is a terrorist organization and they will say and do anything they can to accomplish their stated goal of wiping Israel off the map.

I would hope you do not think that Israel should allow them to kidnap who ever they want to kidnap. You need to go after terrorist agressively it is all they understand.

Posted by: Randall Jeremiah at June 28, 2006 7:07 PM
Comment #162920

“Israel has to flex its muscle’s when terrorists do these types of things.”

I thought Israel was the terrorist state. Oh, I forgot, if the US likes you, the law does not apply.

Posted by: nutty little nut nut at June 28, 2006 7:11 PM
Comment #162921

Since the US couldn’t egg on Syria enough to attack, the administration has decided to let the illegal terrorist state of Israel have a shot at it with a hot dog flyover right out of shrub’s playbook.

Posted by: nutty little nut nut at June 28, 2006 7:14 PM
Comment #162925

David R
How can anybody back a people who don’t care a lick about life. Hamas, alkida all the same they don’t care. Beside they’ve been fighting since Isaac and Ishmael and it won’t end until the return of Christ.

Posted by: Rich at June 28, 2006 7:19 PM
Comment #162926

“How can anybody back a people who don’t care a lick about life. “

Now that’s truly one of the most ??? twisted statements I’ve heard this week. Name a single person who “don’t care a lick about life.”

Posted by: tony at June 28, 2006 7:22 PM
Comment #162927

John doe

The reason Israel went to Syria is because Hamas is headquartered there. Syria has given sancturary to them for years. It is highly time that Syria quit supporting terror.

Posted by: Randall Jeremiah at June 28, 2006 7:24 PM
Comment #162928

the guys that piloted those planes into the towers in N. Y. and the one that hit the pentagon OR DID YOU FORGET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Rich at June 28, 2006 7:25 PM
Comment #162931

David Remer

The US offered to work with Hamas but with a condition. Hamas had to recognize Israels right to live there they refuse too and they still have their goals of wiping Israel off the map. If Hamas would change that then they would be able to have talks with the US.

I guess the question would be should the US deal with terrorist governments, in a civil manner, that only want to wipe Israel off the map or for that matter any of our allies.

Posted by: Randall Jeremiah at June 28, 2006 7:36 PM
Comment #162932

O yes Tony Hitler 6,000,000 jews KILLED

Posted by: Rich at June 28, 2006 7:44 PM
Comment #162935

“the guys that piloted those planes into the towers in N. Y. and the one that hit the pentagon OR DID YOU FORGET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

I’m guessing this is a reaction to my question above?

They love life as much as any human… you forgot what life they care for. They care for their own people’s lives… not ours. We feel the same as they do about our lives and don’t care about theirs.

Look at the Middle East closely if you think that’s a livable solution.

Posted by: tony at June 28, 2006 7:50 PM
Comment #162936

As much as I wish HAMAS was out of the governing people business, this situation has clusterf*** written all over it. This is the precarious kind of situation that comes of policies on both sides that begin and end with military solutions.

So let’s say we get drawn into this. We’d probably assist with our air and naval power first, since those resources aren’t quite as stretched, but with the price Iraq has required of us from a readiness stand point, armed forces wise, a draft will be necessary. More so, in fact than if we had left Iraq alone.

Ultimately, the problem here is that we are paying for the short-sighted nature of the Bush Administration’s foreign policy, especially with Israel. I can only hope that the Bush administration or some international organization has a diplomatic solution. If it comes to war, though, I can only hope that the plan for how to deal with this conflict isn’t as harebrained as the postwar plan for Iraq.

Oh, and one more thing: Do not skimp on soldiers this time. There is no f***ing excuse for going into battle with not enough soldiers to take and hold ground. Technology has not progressed to the point where we can replace men on the ground with equipment in the air or in the vehicle. The smartest weapon of all is still an American soldier with an M-16.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at June 28, 2006 7:53 PM
Comment #162937

“O yes Tony Hitler 6,000,000 jews KILLED”

Again - it’s the lives Hitler cared about and the ones he did not. He loved the Master Race… yes? He could care less about Jews… homosexuals… mentally or physically handicapped… the list goes on.

Even OBL loves someone… and hates quite a few.

Posted by: tony at June 28, 2006 7:54 PM
Comment #162938

Tony

I know you realize that there are many people in this world that do not care about life other than theirs. There are world leaders that way such as the Iranian guy or Hitler, the whole north korean government (they will starve there own people just to build a bomb to waive in our face). There are many more who are not world leaders such as most anyone with Osama or Hamas.

Posted by: Randall Jeremiah at June 28, 2006 7:54 PM
Comment #162939

Stephen are you supporting the draft? sounds kind of that way but I am only asking because most people on the left are not for the draft.

Posted by: Randall Jeremiah at June 28, 2006 7:57 PM
Comment #162940

Randall -

Of course I know this. My point was to dispute the idea that Palestinian people “don’t care a lick about life.” There’s not a person in this world who doesn’t care about life… but it’s generally who’s life they care about and whose they don’t that matters.

My second point is that any one who lumps a group of people who lives they do not care about, they group themselves with some of the absolute worst people in history… including the people who fly airplanes into buildings.

Posted by: tony at June 28, 2006 7:59 PM
Comment #162942

I understand and agree with the point. I think most people would not lump all the palestinians into that group. I do think most people will put Hamas in that group. Now because Hamas was voted in by the majority I figure that a large amount of people in Palestine will also fit in that group.

Posted by: Randall Jeremiah at June 28, 2006 8:02 PM
Comment #162944

Hats off to Isreal for going after subhumans who kidnap their soldiers. I wish them all the luck in the world and hope they kill hundreds of murderers along the way.

Posted by: tomd at June 28, 2006 8:05 PM
Comment #162946

I’m going to bed now, so you’ll have to wait till the morning for a response to the responses I get.

Posted by: tomd at June 28, 2006 8:07 PM
Comment #162947

Tony
Any one who takes their own life or the life of others dosen’t care about life. The conditions over there in the middle east are bad because the governments there don’t care about their own people except maybe Saudi Arabia. The rest are out for themselves. I’ve been there.

Posted by: Rich at June 28, 2006 8:08 PM
Comment #162948

Sigh…

This claim of Arab Muslims wanting to genocide Jews is patently stupid and uneducated. Not a single one of you can give me a SINGLE example of Arabs massacring Jews in over 2 THOUSAND YEARS. FYI… the Genocide of Jews has always been a Christian European Fad. A Christian is FAR more likely to massacre Jews than an Arab.

As for this latest nonsense, Israel has never stopped bombing Gaza EVER. Just last week, a stray shell killed a Family of 7. Another missile hit a car and killed 2 children!!! So please stop this crap about Israel maintaining the peace.

The problem with Israel is that they keep using Force. And when Force fails, Israel uses even MORE Force that fails too. This is a mentality Israelis got while fighting the Arab Countries. Unfortunately, it won’t work here since the Palestinians have nowhere to go.

btw… Your American Taxpayers are the ones going to rebuild those bridges and power plant. How do you like that?

Same old. Same old.

Posted by: Aldous at June 28, 2006 8:12 PM
Comment #162950

I am actually behind Israel doing this, strange for a dem to say huh? My personal take on it is it has to work in increments. the Palestinians are the source of trouble there and very well funded. Israel hopefully will squeezebox them into the Mediteranean but they can’t rile up the neighborhood over it.

I’m glad Israel is fighting back Hamas and actually I do think it is a good thing that Bush never supported Hamas, as I’m sure Mazen and probably the whole of Fatah wishes they had the same option. Hamas needs to be done away with but one solid incremental step at a time.

I’m glad to see it.

Posted by: Novenge at June 28, 2006 8:13 PM
Comment #162952

Isaiah 14:29-31

Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent’s root shall cme forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent. And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant. Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come forth from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.

Posted by: tomh at June 28, 2006 8:16 PM
Comment #162953

Rich:

You lived in the Palestinian Territories? Wow. Did you pass yourself off as Palestinian? Cause that’s the only way you can know what it feels like to be Occupied.

I bet you were one of those weekend tourists visiting the Settlements, huh? Nice water supply, right? Must be nice to have a giant pump that sucks ALL the water so that the local Palestinians have none left.

Posted by: Aldous at June 28, 2006 8:17 PM
Comment #162954

Novenge:

Nice to see you support genocide.

Posted by: Aldous at June 28, 2006 8:19 PM
Comment #162955

“Any one who takes their own life or the life of others dosen’t care about life.”

So, I’m guessing that goes for the USA and our military…???

“The conditions over there in the middle east are bad because the governments there don’t care about their own people except maybe Saudi Arabia. “

Saudi Arabia… cares for their own people… seriously…??? Hardly.

Posted by: tony at June 28, 2006 8:19 PM
Comment #162957

tomh :

“Hats off to Isreal for going after subhumans who kidnap their soldiers. I wish them all the luck in the world and hope they kill hundreds of murderers along the way.”

You seem to be fitting yourself into the same group of people who fly planes into buildings (see above for clarification.) Some life just isn’t worth the price of lead, huh?

Posted by: tony at June 28, 2006 8:21 PM
Comment #162958

And what about American support for Terrorism Rhinehold, or doesn’t that count? And what about the 3600 Palestinians killed by the Israeli Defence Forces in the last five years? At least 1,600 of whom were not engaged in fighting, of whom 580 were children. Isn’t it strange that the weapons they used were supplied mostly by the US? That their policy of ethnic cleansing is sanctioned by the US? If Americans were prepared to investigate what is actually happening in Palestine, people being killed carelessly,people being thrown out of their homes, their land being confiscated, being herded into bantustans, instead of taking their propaganda from a media terrified of criticising Israel for fear of being branded anti semitic, they would be disgusted with their own countrys’ support for terrorism. You wonder why the Mid East is seething with rage? If I was a Palestinian, bereft of a potent way of defending my people, my community, my family, would I don a suicide belt? In a New York minute. You talk about terrorism, and yet you do not know what you own Government sanctions by its political, military and economic aid to a fascist Israel. And you wonder why they hate you? You who boast of your freedom, and many of you who say that if your Government acted in a way to reduce your freedoms, you would arm up, and defy your Government, in your ignorace you are prepared to call decent people, who want to live in dignity, terrorists for trying to defend themselves from a goliath. If you think I exaggerate, check out the Israeli Human Rights Organisation B’Tselem at this link;

http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp

America, the country that demands respect for human rights around with world, can tolerate a lesser holocaust perpetrated by one of its allies, and not only tolerate it, but give it great succour. For shame America!
Posted by: Paul in Euroland at June 24, 2006 04:39 PM

I posted the above contribution on the red side a few days ago. I didn’t get one single response, not one! Not from any side of the political debate. How can Americans, who traditionally have admired the little guy standing up to the schoolyard bully, call those who resist oppression terrorists? The Hamas attack was on a military force, and the captive was a soldier. Now we all know that most of the Palestinians victims are non military, at least in so far as any Israeli in non military. However, when your land is taken from you, your water is taken from you, when your people are killed daily and dismissed as collateral damage, when you are unable to move around your own land without being held up, and often refused permission to pass, to go about your daily work, school, university, hospital - HOW CAN YOU IMAGINE THAT NORMALLY SANE PEOPLE CAN REMAIN SANE IN SUCH AN INSANE WORLD? When they have pea shooters to resist against tanks, jet fighter aircraft, state of art helicopters, missiles etc etc etc, surely they will use whatever means they have to resist? Because the human spirit can only take so much before it lashes out with anything to hand. As the Irish poet William Butler Yeats said, “too long a sacrifice can make a stone of the heart….” A highly respected retired head of an Irish university who visited the region recently said that the Israelis treat their animals better the the Palestinians. And you wonder why they resort to “Terrorism” Tell me, please tell me, what is their alternative???? And how can America, which provides so much of the military and economic power that Israel uses to oppress the Palestinians, find no wrong in Israeli defiance of UN resolutions, and no wrong in Israeli nuclear proliferation? And you wonder why the arabs hate you when their brothers are suffering a catastrophe at the hands of americas proxies.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at June 28, 2006 8:22 PM
Comment #162959

Aldous

Do you realize that the majority of Palestinians live in Jordan. In fact it is many times more live in Jordan then in Palestine. It is open for them to go there and live.

Posted by: Randall Jeremiah at June 28, 2006 8:22 PM
Comment #162960

Im eagerly waiting to see how the US media covers this drama (it is a drama right? like shock and awe).Its has always seemed strange to me that whenever we see this conflict it is always thru the eyes of media groups which are owned by pro-Israel groups hence have a vested interest in the outcome.I have never met a Jew or a Palestinian,at least not knowingly but I know my general impression is that Jews are the good guys while Palestinians are turban wearing babykillers who have tails and fangs and only come out on a full moon.
I know that more Palestinians have been killed in this conflict and I also know Jews are not above bombing civilian non-combantants.Just because the only pictures we see on TV are Aryan looking mothers crying over their slain children does not mean the scene is not repeated in the refugee camps with Palestinian mothers.
Jews have been humanised to the point of making them the underdogs (and you know how we love those especially when they are refered to as allies) while the other side has been demonised to the point of making us blind to the real issues which is Palestinians had their homeland yanked from under their feet under circumstances that have never passed the test of time.The day we realise that the human face does end with the Jews is the day we will get serious about solving this mess which we have left fester for so long.

Posted by: john doe at June 28, 2006 8:23 PM
Comment #162962

Aldous,

I know we are on the same side of the political fence but there are all too many examples of “Arabs massacring jews” in that part of the world. When a thirteen year old Palestinian youth with explosives around his waist hops on a bus or runs into a franchise pizza restaurant where teens hang out or some other act of terrorism that is a massacre. There are decades worth of such sad massacres that were perfectly needless.

The Palestinians were a people who live to kill the jew. Since the time the jews arrived there these supposed Palestinians, some indigenus and some travelling, were there to hate them. The jews began to farm and do things productive and set up businesses and Palestinians live for the sole purpose of killing them for that progress.

A better question is why do Palestinian Muslims hate them that much? The jews came and tried to bring about a homeland in a barron dusty country where the temple on the mount happens to be located and succeeded in doing something productive and thus they are hated for it. The Palestinians hate is assanine and vengefully jealous, that’s it.

Posted by: Novenge at June 28, 2006 8:30 PM
Comment #162963

People are equating the everday palestinian with Hamas they are not the same.

Posted by: Randall Jeremiah at June 28, 2006 8:30 PM
Comment #162964

Aldous
BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of dollars in oil in the middle east. Take the oil; money and build water plants build hospitals feed the poor.O but the Kings and Shieks and the rest of the leaders there need their palaces. O I didn’t live there

Posted by: Rich at June 28, 2006 8:31 PM
Comment #162965

You know there’s a fascinating scene in the early parts of the movie “The Piano”, you know the one which Adrien Brody won a oscar for & kissed Halle Berry when he got on stage… anyway in the scene, they’re walking down the street in the Warsaw ghetto and come to a stop in a crowd that are waiting at a check point until a train passes through. Someone says ‘why do they have to send a gentile train through here?’… hmmm, the German guards get a little bored so they decide to humiliate a few of the Jews there as an added extra.
Subversive no? And some here can’t understand why the Palestinians won’t be more accommodating by rolling over and playing dead…

I hear you tony, but it’s going to take more than just going cold turkey on the oil & gas. Maybe if good old USA stops bankrolling the Israeli military hardware, they’ll be forced to find a better way to get along with their neighbours.
How many more American soldiers lives is this kind of crap worth?

Posted by: loki at June 28, 2006 8:32 PM
Comment #162966

Randall Jeremiah:

You don’t do your research, do you? The Palestinians in Jordan were REFUGEES that the King granted citizenship too. The Palestinians fled to Jordan and completely unbalanced the ethnic makeup of that country. The unbalance was so bad that a CIVIL WAR broke out between the different ethnic groups. Since then, Jordan has banned Palestinians becoming Jordanian Citizens.

Want to try again?

Posted by: Aldous at June 28, 2006 8:35 PM
Comment #162967

Aldous,

Not genocide, the removal of Hamas from the seat of power, I’m all for it. Hamas is diabolically hateful and murderous—they have to go.

Posted by: Novenge at June 28, 2006 8:35 PM
Comment #162969

So Novenge, it’s not enough that the Palestinians should act democratically, they must also come up with the answer the America and Israel requires, or else go back and do it again until they get it right eh? Now that’s democracy. Ever stopped to ask yourself, why did the Palestinians elect (democratically) Hamas?

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at June 28, 2006 8:39 PM
Comment #162971

Let me give you a discription of Hamas, a world relief organization gave the Palestinians an large group of greenhouses to grow vegetables in. Once the crops were established Hamas rebels tore it down and burned it to the ground. Why?

Stories such as these, anti-progressive attacks are what Hamas is all about. Those green houses fed people, they created and generated businesses and Hamas couldn’t stand it.

That’s who the Israelis are fighting, destructive murderous a##-holes.

Posted by: Novenge at June 28, 2006 8:41 PM
Comment #162972

Novenge:

Wow. That’s some major propaganda your smoking!!!

First off, the Palestinians and Jews have live on that land PEACEFULLY FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS. The ONLY documented GENOCIDE done to Jews there were by CHRISTIAN CRUSADERS who killed EVERY JEW IN JERUSALEM!!!

See… that’s what GENOCIDE is. When a group of people sets out to kill every man, woman and child, that’s genocide. Tell me, have the Palestinians killed every man, woman and child in Israel? When did that happen? Take note that ALL THE PALESTINIANS MUST TAKE PART for it to be genocide, not some desperate guy with a bomb.

It is the European Jews who came after WW2 that’s causing all this.

Read your history and do research. Stop acting like a Republican.

Posted by: Aldous at June 28, 2006 8:43 PM
Comment #162973

Holy crap. Novenge really DOES want to genocide the Palestinians!!!

Posted by: Aldous at June 28, 2006 8:45 PM
Comment #162974

Palestinians may elect whomever they chose. But where is it written that we or anyone else is obligated to give them money? If we wish to place conditions on those funds, then they can accept those conditions or do without the funds. It seems simple enough to understand.

Posted by: Fonebone at June 28, 2006 8:45 PM
Comment #162975

Paul in Euroland,

Democratic elections make the people accountable for their votes. Palestinians voted for a regime that is sworn to Israel’s destruction. Are you suggesting that Israel should support their choice?

Aldous,

Your willful ignorance is exceeded only by your unwarranted arrogance. I did, however, enjoy your Jordaninan History For Dummies post.

Posted by: Dr Politico at June 28, 2006 8:46 PM
Comment #162976

Novenge:

Palestinian civilians tore down those Greenhouses. Don’t you watch CNN? How many of those guys had guns?

Posted by: Aldous at June 28, 2006 8:47 PM
Comment #162977

Paul in Euroland,

Why did they elect them? Because Palestinians have death squads that roam the streets at night with hatchets along with machineguns (fact) and they do kill anyone who does not abide by their political ends. They rule by murderous intimidation and the masses are brainwashed and in fear.

Posted by: Novenge at June 28, 2006 8:47 PM
Comment #162978

The Israelis make the terrorists (and their families) pay a huge price for their misdeeds. What if the whole world did that? Might be fewer terrorists, don’t you think?

Posted by: Rickled at June 28, 2006 8:48 PM
Comment #162979

Jihad al-Wazir, the deputy Palestinian finance minister, said roughly 30 percent of the greenhouses were damaged. He said that after a ”very heated meeting” with Qurei and other Palestinian leaders, the security forces appeared to be getting the situation under control.

”We expect the security to protect the assets properly,” he said.

Wazir said the greenhouses did not suffer structural damage, but that looters left with irrigation pipes, plastic sheeting, and most troublesome, water pumps.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2005/09/14/palestinians_loot_greenhouses/

Not quite as you put it Novenge

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at June 28, 2006 8:48 PM
Comment #162980

Aldous,

“See… that’s what GENOCIDE is. When a group of people sets out to kill every man, woman and child, that’s genocide.”

And yet you claim that Israel is engaged in a genocide against Palestinians. Strangely, not one reported death thus far in Israel’s incursion.

Posted by: Dr Politico at June 28, 2006 8:49 PM
Comment #162981

Aldous

I understand my history. You seem to be ignoring a bit of it yourself. The land the Jews had then they purchased. It is true mainly from absentee landlords but it was legally purchased and it was their land. It is not the fault of the Jews that the locals who farmed it did not want to go. The local farmers did not own the land. Other arabs did and they sold the desert waste land to the jews. I am sure they were very happy to do so. It was useless land. The Jews worked hard to make it happen.

Posted by: Randall Jeremiah at June 28, 2006 8:49 PM
Comment #162982

Dr Politico:

Your ability to fantasize reality has always impressed me. You are certain to have a bright future in the GOP.

As for my Jordanian History, I study History that’s why I knew what would happen when Iraq was invaded. Ever read about the British after WW1 in Iraq? Try it.

Posted by: Aldous at June 28, 2006 8:50 PM
Comment #162983

Aldous,

Okay you say civillians in an area where such terms are hard to define—okay. They did it because they hate to see people being self sufficient so only Hamas takes care of them, that’s why. They want the populace dependent on them to fullfill their agendas.

Posted by: Novenge at June 28, 2006 8:50 PM
Comment #162985

Is it Novenge or Revenge?Either way this man’s kind of blindness and inability to accept that there is always two sides to a story is what got us to this point.
There will never be a solution so long as this kind of destructive attitudes exist.

Posted by: john doe at June 28, 2006 8:52 PM
Comment #162986

Paul in Euroland,

Why did they elect them? Because Palestinians have death squads that roam the streets at night with hatchets along with machineguns (fact) and they do kill anyone who does not abide by their political ends. They rule by murderous intimidation and the masses are brainwashed and in fear.
Posted by: Novenge at June 28, 2006 08:47 PM

Get a grip. They won the popular mandate, and no one suggested that the election was less than representative, not even Hamas’ rivals for office.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at June 28, 2006 8:54 PM
Comment #162987

It is true when two groups are involved in a conflict there are usually two sides. That does not mean that those two side are able to be reconciled. There is no reconciliation with Hamas. Hamas has declared that the only reconciliation is for Israel to be wiped off the map.

Funny how Israel does not say the same thing.

Posted by: Randall Jeremiah at June 28, 2006 8:56 PM
Comment #162988

“Your willful ignorance is exceeded only by your unwarranted arrogance.”

Wow - you offered only insults with absolutely no facts, specifics or even connection to the topic at hand. You’re an author here - do you really need to be reminded on the policy?

I have yet to read a single post from Aldous on this topis that is off base… I’d love to see differeing opinions or even better, actual proof… or it might seem that “Your willful ignorance is exceeded only by your unwarranted arrogance.”

Posted by: tony at June 28, 2006 8:56 PM
Comment #162990

Terrorist are not born, the US makes them.

Posted by: nutty little nut nut at June 28, 2006 8:57 PM
Comment #162992

Tony

Be careful who and what you quote.

“Hats off… .”

I made no such statement.

Posted by: tomh at June 28, 2006 9:01 PM
Comment #162993

Aldous,

You are using the word genocide. I’m saying that Palestinians have over them a violent arab funded terrorist regime. That regime needs to be removed entirely and it is all based on violent idiocy. They hate the jews because of the fact that they came there and they did something and yes the hate may be an extention of the treatment the indigenous arabs were subject to under Britain. But the lion’s share of the rage is for the sake of an agenda of bl;aming the jews for all their own social ills and own lack of progress.

Posted by: Novenge at June 28, 2006 9:02 PM
Comment #162994

Randall Jeremiah:

You, at least, seem to know your history.

True, the European Jews who immigrated after WW2 began to buy up Land and it was peaceful.

What broke the peace was the stupid Partition Plan:

“The Jewish state was to receive 55% of Mandatory Palestine. This included the fruitful shore plain and the Negev desert. The desert was not suitable for agriculture, nor for urban development at that time. The Jewish state was also given sole access to the Red Sea and the Sea of Galilee (the largest source of fresh water in Palestine). The land allocated to the Jewish state was largely made up of areas in which there was a significant Jewish population (Map of population distribution). Palestine’s land surface was approximately 26.3 million dunums (26,300 km²), of which about one third was cultivable. The land in Jewish possession rose steadily from 456,003 dunums (456 km²) in 1920 to 1,393,531 dunums (1,393 km²) in 1945 (Khalaf, 1991, pp. 26-27) and 1,850,000 dunums (1,850 km²) by 1947 (Avneri p. 224). Regarding the Arab ownership, the MidEast Web states “At the time of partition, slightly less than half the land in all of Palestine was owned by Arabs, slightly less than half was “crown lands” belonging to the state, and about 8% was owned by Jews or the Jewish Agency.” [1]”

Posted by: Aldous at June 28, 2006 9:03 PM
Comment #162996

t is true when two groups are involved in a conflict there are usually two sides. That does not mean that those two side are able to be reconciled. There is no reconciliation with Hamas. Hamas has declared that the only reconciliation is for Israel to be wiped off the map.

Funny how Israel does not say the same thing.
Posted by: Randall Jeremiah at June 28, 2006 08:56 PM

Israel doesn’t need to say the same thing. They have stolen Palestinian lands and water, and corralled them into bantustans, where any movement is only at the capricious whim of the Isreali soldiers and police, who seemingly rejoice at every opportunity to humiliate Palestinians. They have settled Palestinian lands by driving off the owners. In my own country, Oliver Cromwell, in the settlement of Ireland, told the native Irish to go “to hell or to Connaught”, that western province of Ireland. In doing so, he set up centuries of animosity and division and violence, and ultimately, freedom for the greater part of Ireland from its imperialist oppressor. Yeah, we Irish know a little about oppression and how it feels, and how it stinks! And we like to believe that we share similar values to Americans to freedom and justice.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at June 28, 2006 9:04 PM
Comment #163000

And still no one has responded to my main posting above about American unquestioning military and economic support for Terrorism in palestine, or challenged the Israeli human rights org b’tselem I quoted. The silence is deafening.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at June 28, 2006 9:10 PM
Comment #163001

Its rather naive to blame the situation just on the last few months since Hamas came to power.We must not forget it was western powers ,who in their hurry to assuage their guilt over the holocaust,decided to displace the palestinians from their homeland.The fighting will not stop with the demise of of Hamas.It will only stop when this vivious cycle of tit and tat comes to an end.

Posted by: john doe at June 28, 2006 9:11 PM
Comment #163002

Novenge:

The Palestinians are under OCCUPATION. Isreal BOMBED everything in there!!! The only functioning factories in Palestine is a brewery and a place that makes SOAP!!!

No heavy industry. No Metal Works.

Gone!!!

BOMBED!!!

FYI, the International Observers are unanimous in their evaluation that the Palestinian Elections were free and fair.

Maybe it would help if you explained to us all YOU’RE plan for a MidEast Peace. How much Land will Palestine get. Airspace? Mineral Rights? Right of Return? Jerusalem? Borders? Control of the Jordan Valley? Ability to defend any agreed upon Territory?

Enlighten us.

Posted by: Aldous at June 28, 2006 9:12 PM
Comment #163004

Hey Novenge,

Let me give you a discription of Hamas, a world relief organization gave the Palestinians an large group of greenhouses to grow vegetables in. Once the crops were established Hamas rebels tore it down and burned it to the ground. Why?

Stories such as these, anti-progressive attacks are what Hamas is all about. Those green houses fed people, they created and generated businesses and Hamas couldn’t stand it.

…?????
So explain to me the closure of the Karni crossing earlier this year that destroyed the first Palestinian harvest and prevented them from earning export income off their own sweat & toil… those were what exactly, the stuff that got past Hammas? Please. You only make yourself look foolish.

Posted by: loki at June 28, 2006 9:15 PM
Comment #163006

It will only stop JD when the Israelis treat their neighbours as human beings and equally deserving of their identity and homeland. But their clear strategy in annexing lands and resources and acting simply as imperialists.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at June 28, 2006 9:16 PM
Comment #163007

Aldous and whomever else is on the attack

Question then: What would be a peace that the Palestinians would accept really? Even despite the rhetoric they want it all and that is not feesible and history is history and I get your point the jews were originally only supposed to have 20% of the land prior to the 6 days war. The Palestinians made no peace offering before, they make no peace offering since. What else can you do? And don’t use the kneejerk of genocide—holy crap is that a lame-o response. That is not in the least what I am advocating. This is a highly unworkable situation and the Palestinians want to rule it all and then do what with it?

Posted by: Novenge at June 28, 2006 9:22 PM
Comment #163008

Paul in Euroland I agree.

But why stop when the worlds only superpower has your back?Why stop when you can never do wrong by them?Why stop when you can corrupt public opinion all the time?Why stop?

Posted by: john doe at June 28, 2006 9:23 PM
Comment #163009

The Israelis make the terrorists (and their families) pay a huge price for their misdeeds. What if the whole world did that? Might be fewer terrorists, don’t you think?
Posted by: Rickled at June 28, 2006 08:48 PM

And how do you arrive at that conclusion Rickled? it doesn’t seem to produce less terrorists in Israel/palestine. Quite the opposite surely?

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at June 28, 2006 9:24 PM
Comment #163013

Paul in Euroland I agree.

But why stop when the worlds only superpower has your back?Why stop when you can never do wrong by them?Why stop when you can corrupt public opinion all the time?Why stop?
Posted by: john doe at June 28, 2006 09:23 PM

You know you’re exactly right JD, and when you think about it, that makes the US at least as responsible as Israel for the bulk of the terrorism carried on there by the US’s proxy.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at June 28, 2006 9:29 PM
Comment #163014

Aldous,

My Mideast peace plan, well you have things so covered apparently I was thinking you’d have one. Let the Palestinians continue in their terrorism and then…

Israel is trying force them out of the country that is why the factories were bombed FYI.

Posted by: Novenge at June 28, 2006 9:31 PM
Comment #163016

Aldous and whomever else is on the attack

Question then: What would be a peace that the Palestinians would accept really?
Posted by: Novenge at June 28, 2006 09:22 PM

How about a retreat to the 67 borders, the return of the refugee camp exiles and Jerusalem being made an open city, or shared capital? Does anyone doubt that the Palestinians would accept such a deal?

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at June 28, 2006 9:32 PM
Comment #163017

well, how is everthing in hibernia today? i thought jesus was a jewish rabbi, and born in israel,it is always nice to know how the Catholics feel.yep they have always been so damn hospitable through the ages.

Posted by: Mb at June 28, 2006 9:33 PM
Comment #163019

Try this for size,

Question then: What would be a peace that the PalestiniansIsraelis would accept really? Even despite the rhetoric they want it all and that is not feesible and history is history and I get your point the jews were originally only supposed to have 20% of the land prior to the 6 days war. The PalestiniansIsraelis made no peace offering before, they make no peace offering since. What else can you do? And don’t use the kneejerk of genocide—holy crap is that a lame-o response. That is not in the least what I am advocating. This is a highly unworkable situation and the PalestiniansIsraelis want to rule it all and then do what with it?

Funny how that kind of works, don’t it?

Posted by: loki at June 28, 2006 9:35 PM
Comment #163020

tomh -

sorry, that was from tomd

kind of confusing, but now I know there are 2 tomXs here

Posted by: tony at June 28, 2006 9:35 PM
Comment #163021

Paul in Euroland:

There is no question that Israel commits war crimes. Its one of the reasons so many IDF soldiers refuse to be posted in the Settlements and the Occupied Territories.

There was a museum built about it in Tel Aviv. I wonder if its still there.

Posted by: Aldous at June 28, 2006 9:35 PM
Comment #163023

Well looks like the tempest just broke the teapot

“Adding to the tension, a Palestinian militant group said it killed an 18-year-old Jewish settler kidnapped in the West Bank. Palestinian security officials said they believed the body of Eliahu Asheri had been found in the West Bank city of Ramallah.”

terrorists murder hostage

Posted by: RHancheck at June 28, 2006 9:37 PM
Comment #163024

Paul in Euroland,

“How about a retreat to the 67 borders”

Are you suggesting that Israel give the West Bank back to Jordan?

Also, befor you talk about financing, you should realize that the Europeans are benefiting from about $80 Billion US Nato financing per year. BTW, did you guys ever pay us back for those pesky wars back in the early/mid 1900s.

You do realize that the United States, which you apparently hate, will be the country that comes to Europe’s aid should the need arise, right? It will be Americans dying for your protection. Perhaps a little less hatred is in order.

Posted by: Dr Politico at June 28, 2006 9:38 PM
Comment #163025

Everything in Hibernia today is just fine. But what is this about what Catholics feel? Isn’t that a touch of stereotyping? And anyway, what makes Catholics so special that they should, as a class, feel any different to any other class of humans? As for our hospitality, I think your marines probably got the motto, “no better friend, no worse enemy ” from an Irish influence.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at June 28, 2006 9:39 PM
Comment #163027

i think there is quite enough sterotyping on this whole blog that was my point. did i hit a nerve??

Posted by: Mb at June 28, 2006 9:42 PM
Comment #163028

Loki,

Time and time again the Israelis tried to make peace with them holy crap dude. Okay 1992,1993,1994,1995,1996,1997,1998,1999,2000,2001 and so on there have been plenty of plans on the table and Hamas would not accept them. I agree a populace should not have to pay for the actions of about a third the population but this cannot be permitted to continue. Hamas is not the good guy in this fight, they simply are not.

There will be no peace with Hamas at the head of the table.

Posted by: Novenge at June 28, 2006 9:43 PM
Comment #163029

Dr Politico:

If you hate the French so much, why don’t you ship the Statue of Liberty back to them?

fyi… It was the French Navy that allowed the US to achieve Independence way back when. I bet you didn’t know that.

Posted by: Aldous at June 28, 2006 9:46 PM
Comment #163032

Novenge:

Can you give us a 6 month period when Israel HADN’T dropped a bomb inside the West Bank or Gaza? 6 MONTHS of Israel not bombing/attacking the Palestinians?

Since the Israeli Government want Peace so much, you should have no problem giving examples, eh?

I’ll make it easier for you… 4 Months?

Posted by: Aldous at June 28, 2006 9:50 PM
Comment #163033

BTW, did you guys ever pay us back for those pesky wars back in the early/mid 1900s.

You do realize that the United States, which you apparently hate, will be the country that comes to Europe’s aid should the need arise, right? It will be Americans dying for your protection. Perhaps a little less hatred is in order.
Posted by: Dr Politico at June 28, 2006 09:38 PM

Firstly, why would “us guys” pay you back, for what exactly? I was under the impression that the US was attacked by the axis powers at Pearl Harbour and accordingly set about defeating its enemy, which logically required in the case of Germany that it would have a presence in Europe to fulfil that need. Nevertheless, as an Irishman, whose country was not involved in that war, I am indeed grateful to the US contribution to the destruction of the Nazis, and the containment of the Stalinist bear.

As for the US coming to Europes aid, isn’t that what allies are for? And isn’t the US interest in Europe ever so slightly influenced by the fact that we are the two largest trading partners on earth, to our mutual massive benefit?

And just to clarify, I do not hate America, or its people. In fact, I have a huge affection for that country and its people. That does not require me to blindly accept the policies of its Goverment. it does not mean that I have no right to critise what I see as objective evil, and if I may say so as a non America, something that it not at all in America’s interest.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at June 28, 2006 9:52 PM
Comment #163036

Paul in Euroland:

When did the Palestinians last have a country of their own? I’ll give you a hint it wasn’t 67.

Novenge - wow you are getting abused like you were someone from the right. I feel your pain. :>

Posted by: JimmyRay at June 28, 2006 9:59 PM
Comment #163038

Well, people, it’s 03.00 here, and i’m off to bed. I note that I have still not received a response to my provocative posting above which I copied from my earlier posting on the red column. Funny how I didn’t get a response to it there either. The only response I got at all way from Aldous. I must be living in a parallel universe.

Posted by: Paul in Euroland at June 28, 2006 10:01 PM
Comment #163041

Wow Aldous is now slapping grade school facts around, it’s practically an octagon in here—woo.

Fairness: POLITICO, The European “American-Hater” nationalist rhetoric is so hackneyed. Aim higher because it sounds pretty bottom of the barrel. Along with sloganeering such as we’re number one and France would be speaking German.

Posted by: Novenge at June 28, 2006 10:02 PM
Comment #163043

Hey Aldous ,can you give NO examples of hamas rockets landing in Israel or any innocent people in Israel getting blown up or shot or kipnapped or any other atrocities against them also, say in two months?

Posted by: Mb at June 28, 2006 10:05 PM
Comment #163045

Aldous in fairness. Hamas gives as good as it gets and with this advance it may be that the Palestinian authority now wants Hamas under control too.

Posted by: Novenge at June 28, 2006 10:06 PM
Comment #163048

Md:

I actually CAN give a 2 Month period when all attacks in Israel proper by Palestinians had ceased. Standby while I check specific dates.

Novenge:

Homemade rockets vs. Hellfire Missiles?

Posted by: Aldous at June 28, 2006 10:14 PM
Comment #163052

To those wondering why I would favor a draft, the answer is, I don’t. I dislike the idea, generally speaking.

That doesn’t mean, though, that I do not recognize the situation we are in. If we are forced to come to Israel’s aid with Ground troops, we will not have enough. That leaves only one real solution, like it or not.

When it comes down to it, we do ourselves no favors by undermanning wars. If it’s going to take a certain number of soldiers, and the war really needs to be fought, you do what you have to, and you don’t worry about the political fallout from reinstituting a draft.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at June 28, 2006 10:17 PM
Comment #163053

Removal of hamas good for Palestinians vs. Hamas in power and terror derailing any chance of Palestinian Authority being able to work on their behalf.

Posted by: Novenge at June 28, 2006 10:17 PM
Comment #163055

Aldous, quit being a politician. the last two months ok.

Posted by: Mb at June 28, 2006 10:22 PM
Comment #163056

sure Novenge,
but how honest can you really claim those peace plans were when the future of East Jerusalem, dismantling settlements like Ariel, the ‘67 border and return of refugees were never really addressed in a substantive manner. Always ‘to be negotiated later’ if even that. Now if you were at the wrong end of an Israeli tank, would you really be inclined to be suckered into that?
At some point it would be nice to get past the sterotyping and begin a serious, sensible discussion (and I’m glad you at least have begun to recognise that there are some innocents on the Palestinian side… and even some Israelis too!), but this one doesn’t seem to be there yet, so resuming normal programming…

And now Hamas cannot be negotiated with, just like Fatah & Arafat could not be before. Even before the Palestinian election, Abbas wasn’t worthy of an honest negotiation. Exactly who would be acceptable? Maybe Hello Kitty’s got some free time?

Posted by: loki at June 28, 2006 10:22 PM
Comment #163065

Novenge:

HAMAS was formed in 1987. Who were the bad guys before them?

Posted by: Aldous at June 28, 2006 10:44 PM
Comment #163069

Okay Loki, I’ll lay it out there;

What needs to happen is Israel being the authoritative must live up to its actual obligations absolutely and there is alot of international pressure for them to do just that. The Palestinians, namely Hamas which is what Israel is extracting now, needs to stop the terrorist activities. This advance from what I’ve read so far is for not only the retrieval of kidnapped victims and the subsequent stop of such activity. But also now the removal of Hamas leadership in the occupied territories—even to the arrest of it’s vice PM.

Hamas continues with the terrorism instead of working for some level of progress for the advance of the Palestinians. Everything they do is to instigate this shit further. Yes the settlements were on their lands and yes the international community spoke up loud and clear in 2005 and several times before.

I know you want Hamas to be the good guys perhaps fighting and waging an honorable fight, and maybe I want to see Israel living up to it’s obligations with less derailment of its own claimed objective of seeking peace. Neither side is especially perfect, but Hamas is such a preverbial turd in the bathtub to any peaceful cause. They are funded by Iran and other terror supporting nations. This makes the whole situation less conducive and so too the heavy handedness of Israeli reactions but the terrorism needs to stop.

And the Hello Kitty crap was entirely unjustified. And ummm you would know of that site how????

Posted by: Novenge at June 28, 2006 10:49 PM
Comment #163071

Mb:

Who the hell is a politician? I am a historian. I am disgustingly versed in both the Israeli and Palestinian perspectives in this situation.

The only reason I am posting pro-Palestinian stuff is because of the inaccuracies of the pro-Israeli nonsense some post.

I really don’t care for either party frankly. My lack of sympathy for both Palestinians and Israelis make me an unbiased view, IMO.

btw… The US will pick up the Tab for this, in case you don’t know.

Posted by: Aldous at June 28, 2006 10:50 PM
Comment #163073

Novenge:

When did Israel stop building Settlements? You talk of International Pressure on Israel as if it means something.

When did Israel stop building Settlements?

Posted by: Aldous at June 28, 2006 10:52 PM
Comment #163074

Aldous,

How many electrons in a hydrogen atom?

The PLO? Do I win a prize?

Posted by: Novenge at June 28, 2006 10:55 PM
Comment #163075

Aldous,

I’m not going to play this stupid Trivial persuit horseshit with you—I said what I said and I sure in your mind you are just brilliant but really the issue is the issue.

Posted by: Novenge at June 28, 2006 10:58 PM
Comment #163076

btw…

You guys are seriously mistaken if you think either Paul or Loki or I think Hamas is the good guy.

You are the ones who think this is all black and white.

Posted by: Aldous at June 28, 2006 11:03 PM
Comment #163081

OKay Aldous you want me to say awww but those poor Hamas terrorists are being removed from power right? That’s black and white.

I have stated there is grey matter here and neither side is el perfecto got it. This is a matter of me not playing dove enough yeah I get it. Did I make a liberal feaux paux in not supporting “let’s just let osmosis take care of it?”

There is a disconnect here and you are standing up for hams, not because you aren’t going along with what I say but because you want to say that the whole thing is workable if Israel will just let them keep up the terror—WELL IT ISN’T!

FIN

Posted by: Novenge at June 28, 2006 11:15 PM
Comment #163082

Novenge:

If you don’t have the facts, how can you give an informed opinion?

There are two sides in this story and I have researched them both. It is a very complicated issue and using catchy slogans like a Republican isn’t going to solve it.

Posted by: Aldous at June 28, 2006 11:23 PM
Comment #163084

Palestinians Claim to Have Fired WMD

Posted by: Dr Politico at June 28, 2006 11:31 PM
Comment #163085

Novenge:

I apologize if I offended you. Discussions of Israel/Palestine always end this way.

Probably explains why there never was peace over there.

Posted by: Aldous at June 28, 2006 11:33 PM
Comment #163086

Oh and YOU are going to “solve it” well let me call the UN immediately.

“UN—I have this guy online here who is going to bring about Middle East peace.”

Oh do tell your majesty. I know the Palestinians are just hapless elves and Israel is just the bully. Wrong it takes to to tango but I don’t have the facts going back to British rule over the region or the advances by Ben Gurion? Okay Expound then I’d love to hear some of it.

Posted by: Novenge at June 28, 2006 11:36 PM
Comment #163092

Novenge:

Actually, it goes back to Abraham and his sons. But that is a story for another day.

I never claimed to have the solution or that the Palestinians were “hapless elves”. I was trying to balance your “Israel is a saint” posts.

You are sympahetic to Israel and that is ok. However, your refusal to see Israel’s responsibility for this disaster is unfair. It takes two to tango indeed.

I have no doubt you can name many Palestinian Atrocities committed on Israelies.

Can you name Israeli Atrocities committed on Palestinians?

Maintain the balance.

Posted by: Aldous at June 28, 2006 11:53 PM
Comment #163093

Agreed Novenge it was a cheap shot (wrapped around a kernel of truth… really who would Israel be comfortable negotiating with?),
I was hoping a little Hello Kitty banality would help derail your blind rage for long enough for a little balance to creep in. My bad.

We have to recognise there are 2 Hamas. There’s the one you like to throw up as the boggieman, and who have carried out terrorist acts (though who gets to decide what is & what isn’t a terrorist act?). They can reasonably claim that they have demonstrated restraint for 18 months until this kidnapping.
More importantly there is the other Hamas that treats people’s kids when they are sick, and generally takes care of their basic needs. I know you know this, but you and others just want the easy “bomb them all” response. It hasn’t worked before. What do you expect to achieve if say for example the entire Hamas leadership were elminated in a single night? Do you really think that an even harder line group wouldn’t take their place?
I’ve got to say to you that this sort of attitude ends up leading to only one place that goes by the name of a Final Solution. The only doubt is who solutions who, though it’s pretty clear which downtrodden group is in more danger right now.

Posted by: loki at June 28, 2006 11:54 PM
Comment #163094

Aldous,

You may want to look through your previous posts before you start talking about balance.

Posted by: Dr Politico at June 28, 2006 11:55 PM
Comment #163095

Israel can never expect peace from Islamic Classic Jihadi’s. There is no room in these twisted freaks religion for admitting Jews are anything but dogs - or for admitting that Jerusalem and all of “Palestine” can be rightfully called a home to Jews as well as Arabs. The Jihadi’s ignore history prior to Mohammed as “jahiliya” or the pre-Islamic era of ignorance. See the Taliban blowing up the Giant Buddha’s to understand how far they take this idea. No history, no home for Jews, Jews are less than human, no home for Jews. Not ever will peace be had until all the Jihadi’s are dead and gone.

On a lighter note, looks like old Vlad the Quasi Dictator is getting in the fight in Iraq. Sent in some Spetznaz to hunt down and kill the terrorists who kidnapped and murdered his citizens. Happy hunting comrades!

Posted by: JR at June 29, 2006 12:02 AM
Comment #163096

Dr Politico:

Write an Article defending the Palestinians and I swear to fill it with posts defending Israel.

Really guys, I am just in this for the history. It is quite fascinating.

Did you know it was FRANCE that allowed Israel to build a nuke? It was payment for Israel’s support during the Suez Canal War.

Did you know that when American Diplomats inspected the Nuclear Power Plant, the Israelis cemented the elevator leading to the basement Weapons Program? The US Diplomats literally walked past it during their Inspection.

Posted by: Aldous at June 29, 2006 12:03 AM
Comment #163098

All of you that support Isreal whole-heartedly are nothing but foolish hypocrits.

I agree that some Palestinian tactics are unacceptable but what choice do they have? Their land is being occupied and they WILL fight. If your land was occupied you would fight by any means necessary as well, even if it means sacrificing your own life.

If you want the Palestinians to stop with terrorism give them the conventional weaponry that Israel has. After all, killing and terrorizing with conventional weaponry by your standards apparently is not terrorism, mearly retaliation.

It is plain to see that Israel is just as, if not more guilty in this situation. They are guilty of murdering, terrorizing, and stealing land. They are also guilty of creating the largest level of anti-semitism seen in many years by equating their nation and policies as Jewish people and not what it truly is, the Isreali nation.

As for the conflict as a whole, stop being hypocrits! Of course the Arab nations refused early land partitions and even attacked Israel when it declared independence. Why? Because it was their land! We have millions of immigrants living in the U.S.

How do you think the U.S. would respond if these immigrants decided they wanted their own country here? That’s right, we would respond with aggression. And if they just up and declared their communities as independent nations? It would be a full blown war. Why should you chastise the Arab nations for doing any different?
Oh that’s right, you only want to be right, not accept truth and reality.

Further, OK Hamas is a terrorist group because they want Isreal wiped off of the map. We will support them if they acknowlege Isreals right to exist. What about Isreals hard right government? They want Isreal to steal (only they use nicer terms) Palestinian land. Therefore, they refuse to recognise Palestine’s right to exist. By your own standards the Isreali right are terrorists and we should refuse to deal with them.

Now for proof Isreal does not want peace. Which, I find as silly for even having to spell out. Nevertheless, I’ll try to help you slow to learn folks on the right. I’ll simply use recent events and only with Hamas because by now I’ve most likely already lost your attention to some shiney object hanging near your computer.

- about 2 years ago Hamas agree’s to a ceasefire.

- Isreal nonetheless, continues with aggression and assaination.

- Hamas retaliates but then agrees to return to the ceasefire.

- Isreal again continues with aggression and assasinations.

- Hamas again retaliates, but then agrees to return to the ceasefire.

- Isreal assasinates a top Hamas leader.

- Hamas calls off Truce, but than is chastised by biased media for calling off the ceasefire. Though Isreal, and openly, claimed to never had agreed to the ceasefire. So Hamas was still a legitimate target.

* point in case Hamas made a goodwill gesture by stopping attacks but Isreal blatently refused to stop aggression. All the while claiming Hamas was the aggressor. Hypocritical? YES!

- last year Hamas again agrees to a ceasefire.

- Isreal continues with aggression.

- Hamas ignores aggression, and simply makes usual threats and calls for international evaluation of the situation. (BTW something Isreal has always refused to agree to. Can we say GUILTY but don’t want the world to see?)

- Hamas wins elections by pushing reform and basically ignoring all standpoints on Isreal. Something the writer of this article was apparently misinformed about. (“Moreover, Hamas’ run for elective office was based on a simple platform: the Jews are our enemies and Israel must be destroyed.”) Threw that in for a refresher on the article.

- Isreal continues with aggresion.

- Isreal shells the hell out of Gaza with conventional waeponry, while ironically writing off cheap homemade rockets being fired as “terrorism”.

- Isreal in its wreckless abandonment of fireing rounds into Gaza kills a family of eight.

- Hamas military wing calls off truce, while its political wing holds to the truce.

- Hamas military wing concedes to pressure of political wing and stops attacks, again.

- Hamas grudgingly agree to a document that would implicitly recognize Isreal. Isreal brushes this off is “Palestinian internal affairs” and not for what it really is, a chance for real peace.
(uh oh Isreal your losing excuses for aggression making it harder to steal West Bank land)

- Attack on a legitamate military target by various Palestinian militant groups in which a soldiar is taken hostage. Hamas militant wing claims involvement.

- Demands for exchange of prisoners, women and children illegaly held in Isreali jails for soldiar (and settler).

- Isreal refuses to consider dealing, holds all Palestinians responsible, threatens assasination of Hamas govt. officials (who BTW were working for the prisoners release) and amass a exceptionally large force at the border of Gaza.

- Still no deal after 1 day so Isreal invades. Knowing they are going to provoke more retaliation by any means necessary, we we all know will be written off as “terrorism” because they don’t have the conventional weaponry to just bomb the hell out of Isreal the same, which all of you see as legitimate response. Than Isreal provokes Syria.

Why all of this? Hamas retaliates they can get more West Bank. Syria retaliates it tightens grip on occupied Golan Heights. Isreal simply wants more land and will play the poor defenceless superpower card to get it.

Now, to make sure you understand me very clearly.

I accept Isreals right to exist within the pre 67 borders. They won plenty of wars, albiet not on their own, but nevertheless they still did so they essentially earned it.

I also strongly disapprove of Palestinian attacks on Isreali citizens within Isreali borders, or Isreali citizens who are tourists or in travel outside of borders for any other number of reasons.

I would say that I dissaprove of attacks on all Isreali citizens but the Isreali government seems to think Settlers are citizens. I think attacks on all settlers are completely legitamate. Considering I come from a Native American background I’m not fond of land thieving settlers. Quite frankly if they get themselves killed for their stupid actions, well they get what they asked for.

Finally, the term terrorist is often over used in this (and many) conflicts. Palestinians fighting Isreali soldiers and settlers are militants not terrorists, GET IT RIGHT!

The U.S. Colonial army were considered terrorists due to their unethical tactics when fighting the British. How do you view them today? Albiet they weren’t strapping bombs to themselves but I’d be willing to put money on the fact that if they had the technology and the necessity to do so they would have. Oh, they also frequently murdered pro British civilians. Not to mention many of your American “hero’s” terrorized the hell out of natives, yet I’ll bet you don’t call them terrorists.

Posted by: Metacom at June 29, 2006 12:07 AM
Comment #163100

Stephen D

you wrote:
“Oh, and one more thing: Do not skimp on soldiers this time. There is no f***ing excuse for going into battle with not enough soldiers to take and hold ground. Technology has not progressed to the point where we can replace men on the ground with equipment in the air or in the vehicle. The smartest weapon of all is still an American soldier with an M-16.”

Not sure what this has to do with Israel unless you mean they have enough but GW didn’t send enough? Were there enough in Somalia? No, Clinton and his administration were truly clueless when it came to warfare. How did he react when men died? He packed up and left, so as to make sure those brave Delta boys and Rangers died for nothing. Save the Bush bashing for at least one post, could ya? And how about a cease fire on the keyboard cursing, it’s really getting old.

Posted by: JR at June 29, 2006 12:10 AM
Comment #163104

Ya mean Ishmael? Supposed forebearer of Islam. How’s about this Aldous we are in Iraq for Israel—there ya’ go ponder.

Loki, okay but the other Hamas is there to make certain that it is the terror network that is provisionary of all of the Palestinian people’s needs—I’ll explain. that money is from donations by terror supporting nations. Hamas offers medical services and other ammenities for blind obedience to the cause of Islamicism (being contrastive to the words “Zionism” or “internationalism”). They play the socialist good guy and build terror networks through them. IE: Look what Hamas has done for you—have lots of kids—sacrifice them for the cause of anti-zionist furvor.

It is called “Souperism”, this is a term that came out of the Irish potato famine. Protestants used to offer the staving soup if they would convert over to Protestantism from Catholicism. This socialist “Marshall Plan” of sorts is for the same purpose of buying off a public to their cause. Destroy Israel and what does it get them to persue this?

It doesn’t spell “the final solution”, it spells end the networks of terror or this is the way it will come out. Maybe it would mean a harder line group entering the picture, always a possibility—that my crystal ball won’t tell me, but the terrorism needs to end.

Granted beating up the whole for the activities of some is quite heavy handed indeed but how else is there to deal with it? Right now they are taergetting The Hamas organization and it’s a good shake up.

18 months is a new threshold indeed but they are at the end of their rope with this and it may be hasty to react like this but this was their decision to act and let’s watch it play out.

Posted by: Novenge at June 29, 2006 12:15 AM
Comment #163106

Voting is a great thing, since it forces people to accept the consequences of their actions. The Palestinian people will now face the consequences for electing Hamas and continuing to support attacks against Israel.
I have little sympathy for the Palestinian people. While I can feel empathy for them, I lose most of that feeling when I see them celebrate the family of a suicide bomber. Any culture that makes a hero out of an individual that targets civilians is disgusting.
The only solution is to build a wall that separates the Palestinians from the Israelis. Of course, this will economically cripple Gaza and the West Bank, but that is the choice of the Palestinian people. If they want war, then they must accept the results of that decision.

Posted by: Thucydides at June 29, 2006 12:30 AM
Comment #163107

Metacom

Early american patriots were fighting for an ideal, once they were free they were not going to insist on wiping Britain from the map, beheading any Tory survivors or blowing up the children of British loyalists. Palestians don’t fight with Israelis they blow them up in pizza shops with bombs strapped to their bodies. This is not warfare, it is murder. When since 1948 has a “Palestinian” leader(a made up identity by the way - the largest part of the Arabs in “Palestine” (British identifier) were Jordanian by birth, ever said they would negociate with Israel peacefully, no bombs - no declarations of destruction? It has been attack, attack since before 1948. When you refuse to acknowledge another human being as such, ignore thousands of years of documented history and kill to wipe out the “infidel”, you lose all credibility in my book. The Palestinians are only valuable to other Muslim nations as a wedge and a Muslim rallying cry - to keep Israel off balance. Should they ever truly make a lasting peace, the Jihadis of the world would attack them as apostates.

Posted by: JR at June 29, 2006 12:30 AM
Comment #163108

Metacom
Did you learn history and the application of historical fact under Ward Churchill?
Do you work for Reuters, AP or Al-Jazera?
You mixed some truth with some speculation and sprinklet with a large amount of leftist, pro-Palestinian wash. Picking up in the middle of a historical log without citing what led up to where you pick up is sure compounding the confusion abounding about Israel and history.

Posted by: tomh at June 29, 2006 12:31 AM
Comment #163110

Novenge:

Israel has been trying to “wipe-out” resistance for 40 years. This is the 3rd Generation right here.

Do I need to post the various methods Israel used in the past 40 years? This includes Ariel Sharon’s blowing up a building with Palestinian women and children inside it. Sharon got “reprimanded” for that, btw.

Posted by: Aldous at June 29, 2006 12:36 AM
Comment #163111

tomh:

Actually, tomh is essentially correct in his summary. Hamas has indeed stopped attacks recently. It was the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade that fired rockets.

You are the one with a skewed version of history.

Posted by: Aldous at June 29, 2006 12:40 AM
Comment #163114

Damn. I meant Metacom.

Posted by: Aldous at June 29, 2006 12:44 AM
Comment #163116

ok, there’s more than one path I can take from your last post. But I’ll take the one that’s at least partly constructive and leave the rest, ie

Loki, okay but the other Hamas is there to make certain that it is the terror network that is provisionary of all of the Palestinian people’s needs—I’ll explain. that money is from donations by terror supporting nations. Hamas offers medical services and other ammenities for blind obedience to the cause of Islamicism …

So can you see reason in the idea that the best way to undermine terrorism and ultimately end it, is to win over the people themselves by freeing them from dependance on Hamas (though now they are the elected government it’s possible the bus may have left on that). I’ve always believed that if you let people have something to lose, they won’t resort to the dead end that is terrorism. I’m sorry if that comes across as being too hippyish for all the red meat eaters here (have any republicans actually posted in this thread?), but nothing else has worked, so why not?

Posted by: loki at June 29, 2006 12:47 AM
Comment #163117

Metacom,

This is not the same as the native American situation—they were offered NOTHING—NOTHING. Myself of American Indian heritage (Seneca nation—upstate New York) and they fought in the American Revolution as well. At the battle of Fort Ticonderoga and others—this should make for an interesting conversation. Palestinians were offered deals over and over again and over again and over again—Native Americans were offered jack-shit and sometimes not even that good. We had no negotiations on any level—the Palestinians have been offered it endlessly and still are getting those offers. Plus the Native Americans were not being funded by other nations—the more you think about it the less and less like the Native American situation the Palestinian situation becomes. We got nada squat and dick but brute force and death trails. They get deals and deals and deals.

Plus there is alot of revisionism of how friendly the Indians were, again it takes two to tango.

Posted by: Novenge at June 29, 2006 12:49 AM
Comment #163118

Metacom, ISRAEL not ISREAL. it does not say much for your history.

Posted by: steve at June 29, 2006 12:56 AM
Comment #163120

Aldous

What resistance? Being attacked because you wish to live in your historical homeland is killing resistance fighters? The so called palestinians were told to make room for another group of peoples who had historical claims in the area. They didn’t want to deal with the infidel pigs - fine, they got the boot. To somehow claim that total abandonment of peaceful negociations is entirely the fault of israelis is disingenuous. The Arab population in and around the middle-east has manipulated the “plight” of the palestinians to further their own agendas toward destroying israel. Self preservation is not attacking, and blowing up pizza shops is not the way to negociate like a human being. When they begin to celebrate ALL human life and not just those of pious muslims, then and only then will they be accepted into the family of civilization, and perhaps peace will come to the Holy Land.

Posted by: JR at June 29, 2006 1:04 AM
Comment #163122

Novenge, due to your comment above posted at 11:05 PM is a blatant violation of our Rules for Participation, your participation here is no longer welcome.

Posted by: WatchBlog Managing Editor at June 29, 2006 1:19 AM
Comment #163126

novenge, they also fought dam well in the battle of newtown creek, along the chemung river in elmira new york, under the english.they lost . but fought like hell. my ancestors. who were dutch fought under general sullivan during the sullivan campaign.and you are right the great Indian peoples were treated very bad.

Posted by: Rodney Brown at June 29, 2006 1:34 AM
Comment #163145
Any sane person will surely agree that this vicious cycle will never end without the total annihilation of one side.

Both sides will be more fair. 50+ years at war!
No side have any excuse anymore.

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at June 29, 2006 4:41 AM
Comment #163146

Except the children of both sides, which are the sole innocents still in this tragic area of the world.

Maybe just for them, *because* of them, we (the rest of the world) should step in right in the middle of that conflict with enough will to stay until an all new generation of kids of both sides have grew up fully in peace, learning that living with the other *side* means nothing more than living with the others.
Afterall, what’s 20 years of peacemaking cost regarding the already 50 years (and counting) of war?

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at June 29, 2006 4:56 AM
Comment #163147

Yeah Tony, It was me and not tomh that said I was glad they responded the way they did.

I see a nation kind of like a large family. If any of my children were kidnapped I would stop at nothing to try to recover them. Would you do less?

And that is all I have to say about it.

TomD

Posted by: Tom D. at June 29, 2006 5:16 AM
Comment #163149

TomD,

If any of my children were kidnapped I would stop at nothing to try to recover them. Would you do less?

Yes. I wont killed innocent(s) while trying to get my children back, for a start.

I wont starve other families because I think they do not oppose my children kidnapping enough.
I wont put at risk many civilians but destroying their power plant because some of them may happened to be supporting my children kidnapping.

Collective punishment is not justice. Some here seems to confuse them, sadly.

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at June 29, 2006 5:38 AM
Comment #163170

IHT Editorial Headline - “Hamas Provokes Fight” reinforces the world view that the US media and its politcal parties (no difference between Democrat and republican here) are completely and blindly pro-Israel, no matter what the circumstances.

For months Israel has blockaded Gaza, to the point of an economic and health disaster. For the past couple of weeks Israel has bombarded Gaza with bombs and assassinations, killing many innocent people in the process. If Israel goes about and arrests or kills “suspected terrorists”, then why is it not logical that the Palestinians would arrest suspected assassins, such as an Israeli soldier.

Israel and the US do not want a strong Palestinian government but rather complete chaos to further justify the occupation. Provocation, random killings and collective punishment are more the norm for the Israeli government today than negotiations, dialogue and a search for peace.

Don’t forget, in the 1800’s it was considered very anti-semetic to propose an independent state for Jews, like Israel today. Back then it was considered the first step to ethnic cleansing. So read your history to realize the opposing Israel is not always considered anti-semetic.

Posted by: acetracy at June 29, 2006 10:28 AM
Comment #163191

wow a lot has been said since I left last night.

Stephen Daugherty

I agree with you. I do not want a draft either. I do see where we may need one soon. I hope we do not.

Maybe the Generals are ready to reduce troop levels so we can use them elsewhere then we may not need a draft.

Aldous

I love history as well. I can not seem to find a time where Israel actually attacked first. I seem to find where Palestine attacked first. The current rounds of blows was started by the Palestinians they kidnapped someone (unprovoked). The reason they lost there territory was due to a war they started and lost. I have little simpathy for the Palestinians. The radical groups around there do small things like this to keep the violence going. In my life time Israel has not shot first.

When the Arab countries banded together to take out Israel they lost and quickly. Israel did not go and take all there territory they could have. I would have then supported it since they did not start the war. It was on one of their holy days and the Arabs knew this.

You also know that the green line was determined by who lived where at the time the Brits left Israel. Now the Brits living in Isreal is a true occupation. I understand why they fought for independence. The Palestinian conflict is not the same thing. Palestine has their own government while when Britain was there they were the government. People could not govern themselves. Huge difference.

I do not hold to this occupied land in fact when a land is lost in war (which the palestinians started) then it no longer belongs to those who lost it. Isreal has given land back recently (which is generous) and the result was not peace but more attacks on civilians and the kidnapping of a soldier. There can never be peace or even talks of peace until the Palestinians make a formal recognition that Isreal can be there as well as them. Isreal has made that recognition for the Palestinians. (though i do realize that some radical arms of Isreal will not do so officially the government does.)

Posted by: Randall Jeremiah at June 29, 2006 11:19 AM
Comment #163201

Randall,

I can not seem to find a time where Israel actually attacked first.

Oh, really?
1967 Six Day War: Israel pre-emptive air strike on
Egypt?
1978 invasion of south Lebanon territory?
1981 Iraq’s Osiraq plant air strike?

Israel did fire first in several occasions. Each time an UNSC resolution blaming them was vetoed.
Doesn’t make them angels neither the other side, but please, Israel have blood on his hands too.
Everybody in this area have.

After 50+ years of open conflicts, it’s too late for anybody to remember who start this all mess first and who make it worst the minute after.
It’s time for third, neutral party to drop in and stop this once and for, well, not all but at least for a longer peace time than ever.

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at June 29, 2006 11:59 AM
Comment #163205

I find it amazing that there can ever even be a debate when it comes to the Mulsim world vs Israel. Israel is the only democracy in the region and all they want is their little sliver of land while the Muslims control vast stretches of land non of which they were ever willing to give to Palestinians as a home. (I use the term Muslim since non Arab Muslims are included as well).
Those that oppose Israel seem to feel that Israel should allow itself to be abused and slaughtered without fighting back. With the incredible oil wealth of the Musim world they should have no problem what so ever in taking care of their Palestinian “brothers”. But they don’t. They simply use them as mercenaries in their war against Israel.

Posted by: Carnak at June 29, 2006 12:08 PM
Comment #163208


The Iaraeli/Palestinian conflict has been going on for a generation and a half because someone is benefiting from it. Ask yourself, who is benefiting from the continuation of the conflict and how are they benefiting? Why have we allowed our foreign policy to be held hostage by these two little countries?

Posted by: jlw at June 29, 2006 12:22 PM
Comment #163209

Randall,

You also know that the green line was determined by who lived where at the time the Brits left Israel.

BTW, Brits withdrew their Palestine mandate in 1947. The Green Line was instituted right after the first Arabs-Israel 1948 war armistice, in 1949. Not by Brits.

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at June 29, 2006 12:29 PM
Comment #163213

Carnak,

Those that oppose Israel seem to feel that Israel should allow itself to be abused and slaughtered without fighting back.

Huh? Where did you see that?
Fighting back imply that you fight the one who attack you back, not killing the first one who look like your enemy. This is called blind vegeance, retaliation, punishment.
Which, after more than 50 years of conflicts, people both sides should have learnt how ineffective they’re…

And being a democracy doesn’t protect a nation to behave badly sometimes. Look at democracies history. Very recent one even works.

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at June 29, 2006 12:38 PM
Comment #163230

Phillip

We are specifically talking about Palestine when the Palestinians are always attacking first. Now I did bring up the war. You are leaving out key information such as that Egypt provoked Isreal by using force to stop Isreal’s ability to use the straights of Tiran. Also remember at that time Syria was making raids into Isreal and attacking different civilian communities.

You also have to remember that troops from Jordon and other countries were already on the border for attack. No they may have hit first but the provocation was there and the Arabs were ready with others backing them up to attack Isreal with only one purpose in mind total genocide. Nasser said so directly in a speech prior to the attacks.

Study your history please.

It is not to late to remember who started it because those who did are still the ones keeping it going. I have never seen a peace instituted between Isreal and Palestine that was broken by Isreal always by Palenstine.

I will agree this needs to be stopped but this can not happen until the Arab nations will recognize Isreal as a legitemate nation.

Posted by: Randall Jeremiah at June 29, 2006 1:42 PM
Comment #163238

Phillip true about the green line but the British were key in helping to implement it. At that time the Arabs refused to use this line as a boundary for anything other then a temporary truce. To this day most Arab countries still do not recognize any formal border for Isreal. If they could come to some compromise then the two sides would be able to talk. As it sits now so far only Isreal has come to the table to allow Palestinians to have the land but it needs to go both ways.

Posted by: Randall Jeremiah at June 29, 2006 1:59 PM
Comment #163272

Aldous,

“Not a single one of you can give me a SINGLE example of Arabs massacring Jews in over 2 THOUSAND YEARS. FYI… the Genocide of Jews has always been a Christian European Fad. A Christian is FAR more likely to massacre Jews than an Arab.”

In the 18th and 19th century there were more than 20 major pogroms. The most well known was the Damascus Blood libel, in the mid 19th century. This spilled into the part of the Syrian province now called Israel. It is this rewriting of history that blurs what happens today.

Posted by: M. L. Schneider at June 29, 2006 3:06 PM
Comment #163348

Randall,

You want to talk about studying history than I would suggest you do some of the same, without a one-sided view.

Prior to the Zionist movement Jews and Arabs in the Palestine territories generally got along. Even when the first Zionists came there were little to no tensions between the two groups. However, when a flood of immigrants came, with the intention of establishing their own country, yes tensions began to rise and rightfully so.

How do you think Americans would react if our massive number of immigrants decided they were going to form their own country in our land? We would be up in arms so don’t chastise the Arabs for doing the same.

Anyway, there were attempts to partition the land, that both sides refused. Zionists, because they wanted more land. Arabs, because it was already their land. They had spend all that time trying to throw off other occupiers and were not about to give it to another. Again, the Arabs reacted the same way Americans would if say Latino immigrants decided to try to partition a huge chunk of the South-West. We again, would be up in arms and there would be (violent) hostilities between Americans and Latino’s.

Isreal declares its own state and Arabs attack. Well, considering we wouldn’t even give WASP rednecks their own state out of our land what makes you think Americans would be willing to give it to immigrants? We would attack them.

So with this, the very first aggression, in relation to your own history who was the first aggressor in the mid-east conflict? That’s right it was the Isreali’s.

Also, Egypt closing a canal does not constitute an act of war. It constitutes an act of diplomacy. Therefore, Isreal was the first aggressor in the 67 war.

I also think you forgot about Isreal’s continued shelling and other provocations in Gaza and the West bank, that is aggression.

Maybe you also forgot about military support for land thieving and murderous settlers in West Bank and formerly Gaza, that is also aggression.

I could go into specifics (and did on a post that I hit the wrong button on) But I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt here. Just don’t look at things so blindly.

Sure Arabs have also been the aggressor at times but for Pete’s sake man don’t go on playing Isreal as the poor victim. If you truly do have the love of history, you have to put things into perspective.

Posted by: Metacom at June 29, 2006 5:36 PM
Comment #163362

Metacom

Thank you for your information. I do understand much of what you said but I draw different conclusions then you.

You are correct to say early on there was peace between the two groups. Early on both groups were poor overall. I think the tensions came not because there were Jews coming to their homeland but because they brought a large amount of money. Isreal is the homeland to those who are ethnically Jewish. They lived there thousands of years with out Arabs. Arabs came because Rome moved them in and the Jews out. Most Jews moved back to Isreal looking for their home again.

When the Jews became economically superior then the tension started and the conflict. I also realize at that time there were those who wanted separation between the two societies and they wanted to stay ethnically pure (according to their religious statutes).

I never stated that Isreal was not agressive. I stated that I found that the Palestinians were the ones who made the first move.

I agree with you when you say that closing the straights is not equitable with making the first attack. Lets look at the whole picture. Egypt had their army stationed on the border. Jordan, Syria and many other countries also had their armies on Isreal’s border. There were a number of countries that had back up armies waiting to help Egypt and the rest of them if need be Sudan being one of them. The UN had just evacuated the UN emergency troops and Nasser took the company that controlled the straits and made it a nationalized company. The company was owned by both British companies and French companies. There had been an agreement prior to the Brits leaving that Isreal would be allowed to use the straights. Almost immediately after the Brits left they reniged on the agreement at this same time that is when Nasser stole the company from those who owned it and had his troops and the troops from many other countries surrounding Isreal.

There that is the context I guess Isreal could have waited but why? Why should Isreal wait till they are attacked. Their sworn enemies are sitting at their doorstep armed and ready for battle.

Posted by: Randall Jeremiah at June 29, 2006 6:08 PM
Comment #163387

Randall,

To an extent I also agree with you. However, i do not believe that the immigrant Jews being wealthy was the basis for two reasons. First, that native Jews were not happy with the Euro-Jews and were reaching the point of not wanting them there. Second, is just looking at past events regarding immigration. No peoples anywhere at any point of history, have ever warmly accepted a massive influx of immigrants, no matter how wealthy or poor they were. However, and this only strengthens my argument wealthier groups of immigrants have on average faired better. Thus because of their wealthy status Euro-Jews by your theory should have been more accepted due to their financial power.

I also have to correct a very common misconception.

You stated, “Isreal is the homeland to those who are ethnically Jewish. They lived there thousands of years with out Arabs. Arabs came because Rome moved them in and the Jews out.”

Ethnically Jews are Arab. The Hebrews were a tribe of Arabs who took up the Jewish religion.

One reason why I can’t help but laugh when Jews criticize Arabs as being anti-Semite. Considering Arabs are Semite.

I see your point and have previously considered the veiwpoint regarding the 67 war. However, if Isreal’s sole concern was defence they would not have captured land in the war. A very large swath of land at that.

In looking at todays policies it is near impossible for me to believe that Isreal wants peace more than they want land. One reason being talking in discussion forums with hardcore right Zionists. They complain of how small Isreal is and that they need to control West Bank and Gaza. Something I (and many Palestinians) do not oppose except that they refuse to take the Arabs who live on the land and want to push them into reservations that consists of the most poor land, (see U.S. history).

Second, the other group of Zionists who are the Torah thumpers, “God promised this land to us”. So these boneheads try to steal the land and remove native inhabitants out of religious zeal (see world history). Ironiocally, because of U.S media favoring Isreal we don’t chastize these whacko Zionists.

Third, every time it looks like Palestinians and other Arabs are ready to move towards peace Isreal provokes them. Common war tactic, you should know if you study history. I posted above yesterday how they provoked Hamas into calling off cease-fires. Only 2 years ago first time, and about 2 weeks ago second time. Then of course they provoked the current intifada with Sharon claiming that Isreal will never give up its conquered lands.

I’ll admit I’m not sure about the first intifada because I never really researched it. So I’ll not make accusations regarding it and currently connot legitimately debate one way or the other.

This only became such a hot issue to me because I used to be a strong supporter of Isreal due to our lopsided reports and interpretation of history regarding the issue. However, when I really started paying attention and caught errors in reports and messages I began to see things differently. At that point I fervently began researching the issue and saw too many occasions where Isreal was playing the victim but was consistently provoking the Arabs.

Isreal, having the power they have could have peace if they truly wanted it. To appease most Palestinians and Arabs as a whole all they have to do is withdraw to the pre 67 borders. Tensions would reduce with Syria and most Palestinians. The hardliner Arabs would fall into place with the mainstream population as a result. They don’t want that, they want the land. Even early Isreal policy makers know it would be a mistake to maintain the lands captured in the 67 war. That land was only supposed to be a bargaining chip for peace but the hardcore zionists got greedy.

Posted by: Metacom at June 29, 2006 7:25 PM
Comment #163416

the Sad part is, some people actually believe that excessive Drooling condensed pile of bull excrement that has just hit the fan.

Posted by: Dan Q at June 29, 2006 8:07 PM
Comment #163542

Randall,

Why should Isreal wait till they are attacked. Their sworn enemies are sitting at their doorstep armed and ready for battle.

Because not being the one who actually start the battle could be better?
Because being the attacked, not the attacker, give you more legitimity to call for help?
Because using guns at last resort give more chance to diplomacy?
Because their sworn enemies *may* have stay at their doorstep?

The first to go violent is always the first that failed to keep control of himself.

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at June 30, 2006 10:00 AM
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