Cut and Run, Cut and Jog, Hut, Two, Three,......

Now that the war in Iraq has turned the corner as the newly-formed unity government gets stronger every day, and with last week’s Senate vote clearly showing Senate Republicans standing shoulder to shoulder with the president on that issue, it’s time to ask a question: What happened to the Democratic Party?

As we look at the recent actions of the Three Amigos who call the shots for the Democratic Party now....Jack Murtha, Ted Kennedy, and John Kerry, I wonder how these three can possibly think that mainstream America will ever again listen to anything they say. They have single handedly destroyed the credibility of the Party of Jefferson and I for one am a happy camper.

What happened to the Democratic Party? How did these screamers manage to hijack a once noble party and reduce it to a loose collection of extremist, special interest one trick ponies, left-overs from the 1960s hippie days with only a smidgen now of thought that can be consideraed "moderate" in view?

Jack Murtha, a sitting Congressman, couldn't pass a high school geography test, it seems. Wasn't he the one who told us that Okinawa was right over the horizon? Doesn't he know that Okinawa is located closer to the Far East, than the Middle East? I mean, really...how can we have a Congressman advising us on anything if he can't pass sophomore geography?

And how about John Kerry? He wants to set a timetable.He want to tell the enemy to lay low and keep his power dry until a date certain, when they can start up again and kill everyone after the Americans leave. Didn't he already screw up one war already? No, maybe he did, then he didn't, then he did again, I think.

And what about the Liberal Lion Ted Kennedy? Isn't there a mandatory retirement age for toothless tigers anymore? He screams about high gas prices but is the first to block a windmill off the Cape because it screws up his view. Now, he has his acolytes do his heavy lifting for him, but really is this guy for real or what?

So, this is the new management team. Throw in Howard Dean, and Russ Feingold, add a dash of John Edwards, and you will see that the "center" of this party is non-existent. You see guys like Joe Lieberman being run out of the party, and even poor Hillary booed practically off the stage at a Democratic rally for supporting the troops and their current mission.

Since the Democratic Party is now the anti-war party, the time is now ripe for discussion anew. If you vote Democratic, then you back the anti-war crowd. If you vote Republican, then you support America fighting and winning the war on terror.

The issue is now black or white, with no shades of grey.

And this is where the ideological battle will be joined going into the mid-term elections.

If you vote Democratic, then you vote to cut and run or cut and jog. If you vote Republican, you vote to stick it out.

It really couldn't be clearer.


Posted by Sicilian Eagle at June 27, 2006 7:58 PM
Comments
Comment #162627

We cannot leave Iraq until every Al Queda Terrorist is dead there.

Fortunately, this Administration is building a dozen massive Bases in Iraq to guarantee our presence there.

At 50 Billion Dollars a year, I am certain we will achieve victory over Bin Ladin in the decades to come.

I really am grateful to our Volunteer Army Men and Women who risk their lives to obtain our oil.

We must stay in Iraq however long it takes. The terrorists must not win.

Posted by: Aldous at June 28, 2006 4:32 AM
Comment #162639

The Democratic Party has little consensus on what to do in Iraq. They have different branches of their party that want different things. Having outward and public disagreement over direction gives the appearance of a wavering party, which is not a good public appearance to give to voters.

Their primary season should be interesting in a year or so, with the likes of John Kerry rampaging from his new far left stronghold, while Hillary fights from the Joe Lieberman center. They may savage each other enough to cancel each other out.

The Dems are almost like two parties right now—the Kerry, Dean, Kennedy left, and the Hillary,Lieberman center.

Those on the left dislike the others enough to boo Hillary at an event. The question is…will they vote for her if she is the party nominee. I’d think the answer is yes, and that certainly is what Hillary is banking on.

But having such a schism within a party is not a good thing. It creates major difficulties in trying to establish a cohesive position on issues. They must figure out how to have their differences in private, and publicly present a unified face.

Posted by: joebagodonuts at June 28, 2006 6:45 AM
Comment #162642

As the Repubs get dizzy turning corners, I remind you of the scum they rally behind.

link


Wait until you see what they’ve dug up on the “Swifties”

Ethics? We don’t need no stinkin’ ethics!

Posted by: gergle at June 28, 2006 7:26 AM
Comment #162647

gergle,
How is hiring someone to create an ad six years before they commit a crime “rallying behind them”?

Posted by: traveller at June 28, 2006 7:53 AM
Comment #162650

SE, check the polls. The majority of Americans are on the Dem’s side of this issue, calling for an exit plan, and troop drawdown sooner than later.

But, what good did they do? I will tell you. Regardless of conditions on the ground in Iraq, Bush is going to draw down troops because he can’t allow Dem’s to upstage him with a political, I told you so.

It’s one thing for a party to be divided on Cutting troop losses and running toward a responsible exit plan, but, it’s quite another for the party in control to denounce cut and run just as they are laying plans to do just that. Republican politicians see the writing on the wall from Viet Nam. They know they are going to lose power in Congress over this war. And cutting and running for political purposes is precisely what Republicans in Congress are going to insist the President do.

Posted by: David R. Remer at June 28, 2006 8:01 AM
Comment #162651

Oh what a perfect world it would be if the democaratic party just dried up and blew away in the breeze. The talented Republicans could really show what they can do.

Posted by: Schwamp at June 28, 2006 8:02 AM
Comment #162655

David R. Remer

As you say, “Great Budda!” (Is that how you say it?).

Your post sounds like Stephen’s. It was a finesse reply to my insightful article. We both know that ground commanders make the decisions on troop levels there, and with the security forces now over 300,000…and headed to 365,000 by year’s end, more and more territory will be handed to the Iraqis.

The big problem is the mid-level officer corps there. Now, 2500 newly-minted officers join 1,500 Saddam left-overs, but they lack experience. That is THE Achilles heel of this operation. As time rolls on, and these guys get battle-hardned, this will move at a faster pace.

The next step is to get these guys some equipment and let them begin to operate independently.

However, the insurgents are tough customers. The Baghdad clean-up is proving to be very tough. Baghdad is huge…over 40 miles in diameter, and 25% of the population is there…every sectraian group is in one compaaacted area. Once this area is secured, the end game should begin. Anbar province remains almost a free-fire zone, but that’s where politics comes in. The new prime-miister is a tough character himself, and gets high marks from me his first month on the job.

Oil is flowing too. Well over 2.2 million barrels a day. By year’s end it will be past the Saddam level, which is a testimony to Haliburton. :) (I wanted to see you reaction, David) Seriously, oil is flowing and money should start flowing to the government and the people, provided corruption doesn’t take it all.

Overall, I think the siuccesses there happened IN SPITE OF Democratic opposition. Good news from Iraq, is now bad news for Democrats.

Posted by: Sicilian Eagle at June 28, 2006 8:17 AM
Comment #162656

Trsveller, I know reading is not a strong point of Bush supporters. Reading things like Al Qaeda is targeting the US in the Daily Intellegenc Brief is hard,while My Pet Goat is more fun.

When did the molester do his deed? Over the past Eight years. He was arrested in 2005. You do the Math. Hint it was well before 2000.

Did you vote for Bush in 2000? I’d call that rallying behind his child molester campaigner.

Not a big deal, just another small example of the fine upstanding Republican ethical choices.

Posted by: gergle at June 28, 2006 8:17 AM
Comment #162659

Zelsdorf, regarding the source for the bases. How about President Bush’s budget requests? Would you accept those as a source? 500 million for military bases, and another 500 million for the largest American embassy ever. One can build several large permanent military bases for 500 million, and that appropriation was just for 2006. Hundreds of millions have already been budgeted and spent on military bases in the last two years prior to this one.

I will understand if you reject Pres. Bush as the source, however, he has been known to tell some fat fibs around election time.

Posted by: David R. Remer at June 28, 2006 8:42 AM
Comment #162660

SE-
Okay, how’s this for a finesse reply: Bush is cutting and running, and he’s been trying to do so since day one. Unfortunately, he shares a bad habit with many Republicans: he likes to count his chickens before they hatch, even if there’s a skillet and broken shells nearby.

Time and again, he’s thought or at least said that the next measure taken would be the last. He declared “mission accomplished” just about three years ago, landing on an aircraft carrier. When that summer yielded neither Saddam, nor peace in a newly conquered Iraq, the prematurity of his declaration began to trouble some Americans.

Then, capturing Saddam was going to be the magic bullet. Then killing his sons. Then Taking back Fallujah and Najaf. Then Having elections. Then writing a constitution. Is it any wonder that Americans have lost faith in this President and this war, at least the way he’s running it?

As for these Iraqi soldiers, it’s an open question of whether they will bring order to Iraq, or whether they’ll take their training and take sides in a brewing civil war.

And you folks can talk about is your successes. Well, while you’ve been having all these successes, your military policy has failed to put the breaks on the violence. Baghdad has already seen over 6,000 violent deaths this year.

And now it seems, the president is going to try and get out of Iraq by December of next year. It will fit a pattern that we’ve seen in the Iraq campaign the whole way through, one that started with going in with less than a Hundred Thousand troops, with the expectations of leaving in August of that same year, and which has stretched for three long years of bloodshed, as Bush has consistently refused to raise troop levels high enough to properly pacify the country.

And why doesn’t he do it? Because that would mess up the first field test of good old Rummy’s military doctrine. Because the end of such a commitment might leave him without a political bludgeon to use on his opponents. Because he can’t make a quick getaway with more troops in theater. Because it might require him to ask for a sacrifice from the American people of their tax cuts, their lives, or both. Bush has played political games with this war from the beginning, and America and its soldiers have paid the price.

If Iraq gets better, sure, wonderful. It should have been better, been done better years ago. But this president had to be lazy, short-sighted bastard about the whole thing, and that’s why we’re in this fix.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at June 28, 2006 8:45 AM
Comment #162671

Stephen Daughtery (AKA “The Swashbuckler”)

Terrific post. Such finnesse, such magistry. I enjoy the missives of Stephen now with my coffee and sometimes my malox.

Why doesn’t the Democratic try and paint the president as a cut and runner then? I like that idea. How do you think mainstream America will acccept that? Then they could turn to say, John “I Got Gonads” Kerry as a logical alternative. Or maybe John “Pretty face who scares the shit out of the insurgents” Edwards or better still Jack “wait a minute…I think Iraq is here someplace near Africa” Murtha?, or how about Nancy ” I’ll give ‘em hell, I swear” Pelosi?.

Seriously, Stephen, all of the insurgents will switch to squirt guns if that crew were in charge,…they’d feel sorry for us, I think.

You post did highlight some of the highlights of this war, though…yup…a democracy born right under Osama’s nose.

Do yourself a favor: either try to prop up Clark or Leiberman, and hope that the Dems don’t get beat too bad in November. That’s about the best you can hope for, I think.

Posted by: sicilian eagle at June 28, 2006 9:56 AM
Comment #162672

Nice spin SE. You’ve attempted to spin the Repub takeover by the fanatical religious neocon and tried to make it seem like the Dems are the ones with the problem.

The righties here remind me of the father in the lower levels of the (recent movie) Titanic as it sinks. Certain is his righteousness, rather than listen to someone who might know better he grabs his son from the main protagonist and runs straight into their deaths by drowning.

Fortunately, this November I think enough people will listen to reason and not be blinded by the divisive hate of KKKarlCo.

Posted by: Dave1 at June 28, 2006 10:00 AM
Comment #162676

SE
Did you mean Democracy at the point of a gun Bought right under Osama’s nose?

Posted by: j2t2 at June 28, 2006 10:11 AM
Comment #162681

j2t2

Yup. Pretty much the same way it happened in Nazi Germany and Nationalist Japan. How do you think those counries got democracy? With daisies?


Dave1

The religious right is our equivalent to your hyper-left. However, they are good doobies and know when to shut their mouths. The moderate core of the Republican party is alive and very healthy. Yours disappeared.

Posted by: sicilianeagle at June 28, 2006 10:26 AM
Comment #162689


S.E: When you exagerate or lie about circumstances In Iraq, your argument is easily knocked down. You say exagerations like, a time table for withdraw will allow the terrorists to bide their time, keep their powder dry and kill everyone in Iraq when we leave. How can you be taken seriously when you say things which are obviously not true.

Democrats won’t have to try to label Bush as a cut and runner. He will do that himself when he announces a large troop withdraw before the election in a obvious attempt to get republicans elected. Dog the wag. The vail is starting to get some very big holes in it and it is becoming increasingly easy for the American People to see through it.

Posted by: jlw at June 28, 2006 10:54 AM
Comment #162690

SE, all the polls, which are the only “objective” criteria we have to speculate on the outcome of November’s elections, spell trouble for the GOP. They are going to lose seats. The question no one can answer is how many. The reason is because the polls don’t indicate whether the negative numbers reflect an overall anti-incumbent sentiment or a pointed anti-GOP sentiment. And any polls that attempt to measure that will be instantaneously denounced as not “objective” in either case.

Democrats now fair better in the polls than either Congress as a whole or Republicans by about 4 to 5 percentage points. If that divide widens, the potential lost GOP seats grows.

I understand both Democrats and Republicans need to spin wishful thinking about their certain victory in November, but, by the only empirical evidence available, the GOP is going to come up short. How short, is the only question.

Posted by: David R. Remer at June 28, 2006 11:07 AM
Comment #162702

SE-
Why don’t the Democrats say that he cuts and runs? Because we’re talking about timetables for withdrawal ourselves. There’s not enough of a distinction there.

What we will likely do is call him a hypocrite, especially if this is another occasion where image of his declaration of victory doesn’t match well to the reality.

Much about what you folks claim about your people and ours doesn’t match to the record. If you can’t see that your president’s messed up things badly, if you have to rationalize his failings, I will look at your comments on our politicians as being shaped by insecurity about your own people. You can’t very well tout Bush’s complete victory in Iraq, can you?

Democracies don’t always turn out right. Without appropriate safeguards and stable social structures, Democracies can degenerate into dictatorships and tyrannies, where elections are held just for appearances. Remember the Weimar Republic? Look at half the Countries in Africa and recall that many of their governments were “elected”, in the wake of their colonization. We have to approach things more conscientiously than the Europeans have, or else we will se the same consequences.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at June 28, 2006 11:52 AM
Comment #162707

SE,

“Pretty much the same way it happened in Nazi Germany and Nationalist Japan. How do you think those countries got democracy?”

Let me think.

Did Saddam have a submarine fleet we haven’t heard about?
Or maybe he had taken over all of the middle east and was threatening Europe?
Or was it that he had designs on the whole of the Far East because he needed the resources?

I may not have the nuance of Mr. Daugherty, but I know damn well the “war on terror”, or the fight with the “Axis of Evil” won’t be won by passing out happy face buttons.
Saddam was never a threat to America. He was a sad bullshit artist that we helped to set up house in the ’70s, and then ignored as he ravaged his own populace. He was an easy mark because of the triple drain of his stalemate with Iran, the Gulf War, and the sanctions laid on Iraq after his surrender.
Sudan is a greater threat to global security than Saddam ever was, and meanwhile the Taliban is trying to make a comeback.
Your “cut and run” scenario makes a cute political talking point for the stiffs, but Mr. Bush has committed our grandchildren to being, if not the occupiers of Iraq, at least footing the bill for decades to come.

Stay the course?

What course would that be?

Posted by: Rocky at June 28, 2006 11:59 AM
Comment #162709

David R. Remer

Most polls show that Americans hate taxes. They also would show that most Americans would love to pay 25 cents a gallon for gas, and most polls show that men wish their wife would like Angelina Joli.

Who would vote vote for war over peace? Not many. But most realize that this war is a different war against a rutrhless enemy, and when all is said and done, the Repubs will still control both houses in Congress.

I think things will be even better by November too over there, so this war will not hurt the Repubs as much as you think.

I am curious though: how is the polling going in terms of a third party or alternative party. Are the numbers growing, and from whatr party do you think they are coming from?

Posted by: sicilianeagle at June 28, 2006 12:02 PM
Comment #162710

David:
“the outcome of November’s elections, spell trouble for the GOP. They are going to lose seats. The question no one can answer is how many. The reason is because the polls don’t indicate whether the negative numbers reflect an overall anti-incumbent sentiment or a pointed anti-GOP sentiment.”

I think the polls may be:
1. Reflecting a deep disgust over the lies that took us into the war, the incompetence in waging it, the horrible amount of wasteful spending on it, the unbelieveably poor accounting regarding all that money spent, and an awareness that our troops have been stuck in this quagmire for far too long.
2. Reflecting a loathing for the GOP’s obvious and widespread corruption.
3. Reflecting a healthy and natural aversion for the way the Congressional majority have rubber-stamped the unconstitutional actions taken by this administration under the guise of the “War on Terror” against American citizens.
Just my opinion.

Posted by: Adrienne at June 28, 2006 12:06 PM
Comment #162712

Rocky

Saddam was one piece of the puzzle. Iraq is now a killing ground for any terrorist who wants to do jihad against America. Better there than here. I have said that for four years. Plus I love the number zero. That’s how many attacks we have had on our soil since 9/11/01.

The cost of the war is bullshit too. American workers pay taxes on that money and it recycles itself. Raytheon, GE, Humvee manufacturers,and every other defense contractor pays Americans to built their stuff. Their workers get taxed. They spend their money. Those peopl who get their money pay taxes too. Get the picture? Even little old ladies who protest the war, cash their dividend checks of their mutual funds from these contractors. The cost of the war, rather is in the tradegy of those heros dead or wounded. There the price is inestimable. That is the price..the true price of freedom.

Posted by: Sicilian Eagle at June 28, 2006 12:10 PM
Comment #162713

Rocky, very well put!

Posted by: Adrienne at June 28, 2006 12:11 PM
Comment #162715

“The issue is now black or white, with no shades of grey.
And this is where the ideological battle will be joined going into the mid-term elections.
If you vote Democratic, then you vote to cut and run or cut and jog. If you vote Republican, you vote to stick it out.
It really couldn’t be clearer.”

first of all, i would like to point out that there is never a simply black and white situation. in fact, in the field of logic, there is a fallacy called ‘black and white.’ actually, it could be a lot clearer, owing to the fact that the democratic party is split over whether to pull out or not and the republican party is actually planning, in some form, a pull out. second of all, how is it an ideological debate? and since when are there only two sides to any debate, let alone an ideological one, and since when have all democrats and all republicans, or any group of people, agreed utterly and completely on one side of this war or on anything for that matter. what many people are failing to see( democrats and republicas, liberals and conservatives, religious zealots and athiests alike) is that all of america is not split between the two sides on the war in iraq and that there are more than the two solutions mainly talked about: getting out now or sticking it out until the end no matter what happens. one of the major problems we have here is that we spend too much time fighting each other instead of FIXING THE DAMN PROBLEMS FOR ONCE.
gergle, your point is mostly irrelevant, and is really attacking the republicans themselves instead of their argument, which is what we tend to discuss here (that too is a category of fallcy ‘ad hominum’). of course, it is much easier to attack the person you are debating with rather than what they are saying, as has been demonstrated by members of every political party but has been particularly vehement coming from the right. rather than calling us ‘cut and run’-ers, why not, for once, give us a good reason why we should stay in iraq indefinitely watching more and more of our soldiers (whom i support wholeheartedly, they are heroes and are simply fighting for a falsified war brought into existence for immoral reasons) be killed and maimed (physically, mentally, and emotionally)?

“Your post sounds like Stephen’s. It was a finesse reply to my insightful article.”

hubris anyone? pretentiousness is never a good strategy when posing an argument, and tends to push both supporters and dissenters further away from you. oh yeah, and i forgot, finesse is what we call ‘tact’ and ‘politics’ here, in case you forgot. also, that quote of jack murtha’s: i believe what he was using is what we call a similie. and by the way, okinawa is just over the horizon, kind of like every other part of the world is from any point at any time.

“Yup. Pretty much the same way it happened in Nazi Germany and Nationalist Japan. How do you think those counries got democracy? With daisies?”

no, they got democracy through bloodshed, death, and force. BUT, the current administration did not lie about their reasons for invading them and reconstructing their governments. furthermore, many of the people in germany at the time were ready for a change of pace. they’d noticed that war sucked and hitler was a bit wonky.

“The religious right is our equivalent to your hyper-left. However, they are good doobies and know when to shut their mouths. The moderate core of the Republican party is alive and very healthy. Yours disappeared.”

i have to agree with you there, to a point. and our moderate core has not dissapeared, it’s just gotten very very quite and been shoved under the rug by the republican media because it is much more convinient for them to deal with the hyper-left and paint the democrats in that light. of course, you should listen to what you just said and realize how dangerous of a position you are in. the religious zealots like power, i’d be careful how far you trust them to ‘know when to shut their mouths…’

“Oh what a perfect world it would be if the democaratic party just dried up and blew away in the breeze. The talented Republicans could really show what they can do.”

no, it would not be a perfect world then, that’s what we call a single party dictatorship and is exactly what the founding fathers did not want. if all of the idiots and scumbags in both parties would dry up and blow away then the talented politicians period would be able to stretch out, crack their knuckles, and do some serious work. but part of the problem with this world is that it is filled with a disproporitonate amount of foolish, annoying, downright brainless people; and i thank you for providing a perfect example.

Posted by: alefnaught at June 28, 2006 12:12 PM
Comment #162718

Sicilian Eagle

“If you vote Democratic, then you back the anti-war crowd. If you vote Republican, then you support America fighting and winning the war on terror”

Why is being against the Iraq war “Anti-war” and being for the Iraq war not “Pro-war”? Are Republicans Pro-War? Why is being anti-war a negative to Republicans? What rationale, civilized, compassionate and moral human being is pro-war?

The Roman Empire, Napoleon, Hitler, Saddam Hussein and Neoconservative Foreign Policy are Pro-War.

Neocons believe in the pre-emptive use of American Military power to convert Rogue states into free democratic puppet regimes to protect our security and interests. They believe in America hegemony and we are the good empire builders. This involves the spread of American democratic ideals throughout the world via force. We won the cold war, now let’s conquer the world. To me this is being “Pro-War”.

Winning the war on terror never had anything to do with Iraq. This was Bush’s creation and he made it the forefront of terror.

Being against the Iraq war is not synonymous with being against the war on terror. I would argue, the Iraq war detracted us from the war on terror. It was purely imperialistic.

Posted by: stefano at June 28, 2006 12:21 PM
Comment #162719

“That is the price..the true price of freedom.”

I don’t know how people can write things like this without embarrassment. Not only is this utter hogwash, it is maudlin hogwash.

Posted by: Adrienne at June 28, 2006 12:22 PM
Comment #162723

SE,

Saddam was one piece of the puzzle. Iraq is now a killing ground for any terrorist who wants to do jihad against America. Better there than here. I have said that for four years. Plus I love the number zero. That’s how many attacks we have had on our soil since 9/11/01.

Forgot already about your friends coallitioners UK and Spain? Better in these countries than here.
That’s NIMBY applied to counter-terrorism. Nice and fair.

So, please, now stop using the argument that US in their so-called War on Terror are fighting for all westerners because, as you’ve shown, you don’t care about their soil and lives a bit but only your. Self-interest is self-interest, assume it and stop being hypocrit.

The cost of the war is bullshit too. American workers pay taxes on that money and it recycles itself. Raytheon, GE, Humvee manufacturers,and every other defense contractor pays Americans to built their stuff. Their workers get taxed. They spend their money. Those peopl who get their money pay taxes too. Get the picture? Even little old ladies who protest the war, cash their dividend checks of their mutual funds from these contractors. The cost of the war, rather is in the tradegy of those heros dead or wounded. There the price is inestimable. That is the price..the true price of freedom.

Yeah, but who care about lost lives when war is, according to you and many, such a great money machine!? Better an asymetric war forever, every american who happen to survive will become richer!

War Is Good? US business is War?
Seems you actually think it is or it should!!!
Complete disgrace, you said?

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at June 28, 2006 12:40 PM
Comment #162728

SE,

“Saddam was one piece of the puzzle. Iraq is now a killing ground for any terrorist who wants to do jihad against America. Better there than here. I have said that for four years. Plus I love the number zero. That’s how many attacks we have had on our soil since 9/11/01.”

Zero is also the total number of dinosaur attacks that have happened in the same time frame, but I’m sure there is a boatload of T-Rex on their way right now due to land any minute.

The priorities of our government are breathtaking.

We’ve done exactly Zero to secure our borders, yet we have wasted no time attempting to pass Constitutional Amendments outlawing Gay Marriage, and Flag Burning for the umpteenth time.

We had a much ballyhooed invasion, yet did exactly Zero to secure what we took.
We put ourselves in a pre-emptive war, and did exactly Zero planning on what to do once we got there.

Zero is also the amount of “hearts and minds” that greeted us as the invaders.

We are now in an endless war of attrition.
You yourself said that 10% of Muslims consider themselves pissed off at America. That’s one hell of a pool to draw from.

Posted by: Rocky at June 28, 2006 12:53 PM
Comment #162735

alfenaught

First of all welcome to Watchblog…I am not sure that I have ever posted a response to you.

Of course, you are correct in saying that this issue is much more that black or white. I agree with you. However, I have drawn the line in the sand today for two reasons: first, on another thread I was asked to debate this issue, and second because I am trying to make the difference between our ideaologies easier for all to see. There are many on the left column who have their feet in the bathwater and out. On this side, we aren’t that way. One way or the other,and that’s the debate.

Regarding my use of the word “insightful”. Again, I do that because the person to whom I directed that to and I usually go mano a mano on different issues. Truth be told, he is much smarter than me. Don’t read into that.

This country actually should be divided into three parties, not two…I have written on that: A left, a moderate, and a right. The lines are blurred, but it is a shame that a guy like Joe Lieberman. who really is moderate on almost all issues, is getting ram-rodded out of his party by the monied secular progressives on the left.

Stefano

Italiano? Sono Siciliano.

The bright line I drew this morning was for the reasons cited above. You can’t be half way committed. In no uncertain terms, I support this president and the war effort. There is no grey there.


Adrienne
If Radical Islam ever takes over this country, you’d be in in big trouble I think. You’d have to take off the leftie cheerleading costume and don a burka, which is very to do do back flips in, I think. Women are property under radicial Islam. Are you ready to be a chattel? Women’s rights? Zero. Think we’re neocons. They are KING Kong neo-cons. They want to kill and me, Adrienne. They can’t be reasoned with.

Now, pass that hogwash.

Posted by: sicilianeagle at June 28, 2006 1:08 PM
Comment #162738

Rocky

My zero is a whole lot better than all your zeros.

Plus, the president didn’t create that 10%…..they have been around for decades. We just didn’t realize it.

Now we do.

Posted by: sicilianeagle at June 28, 2006 1:12 PM
Comment #162741

“Zero is also the amount of “hearts and minds” that greeted us as the invaders.”


Uhh, wrong! Just another attempt (by you) to ignore the 0 amount of attacks since 9/11. Much of the reason we haven’t had attacks is b/c of the Patriot Act and the War (in Afghanistan & Iraq); yet, you’re on record backing up the NY Treasonous Times for outing a program when they were warned (by the President of the US) not to run that article.


“You yourself said that 10% of Muslims consider themselves pissed off at America. That’s one hell of a pool to draw from.”

What country (including our own) has 100% of the people who are not pissed off at us?! Or, any other country for that matter?!!

Posted by: rahdigly at June 28, 2006 1:16 PM
Comment #162743

SE,

Eagles are supposed to have good eyesight. Please put on your glasses, keep off the koolaide, stop regurgitating the talking points, leave your “loyalty” at the aerie, and take a good hard look at reality.
You’ll be indie within 30 seconds, maybe you’ll even vote Democrat!

Posted by: Dave1 at June 28, 2006 1:21 PM
Comment #162748

rahdigly,

“What country (including our own) has 100% of the people who are not pissed off at us?! Or, any other country for that matter?!!”

What you fail to realize is that figure comprises many countries and that 10% equals 100 million people.

“Uhh, wrong! Just another attempt (by you) to ignore the 0 amount of attacks since 9/11. Much of the reason we haven’t had attacks is b/c of the Patriot Act and the War (in Afghanistan & Iraq); yet, you’re on record backing up the NY Treasonous Times for outing a program when they were warned (by the President of the US) not to run that article.”

Wrong bucko.
Much of that reason is that geographically we are pretty isolated.
Much of the reason for terrorism is the psychological effect it has on it’s victims. You don’t have to attack once a day, or once a week, or once a year, to keep your victims on edge waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Fear will do most of the work for you.

My support for the Times has more to do with the fact that, classified or not, the information was there, all the time, just waiting for someone to read it, and not some big secret.
The program was out, apparently you were the only one that didn’t know about it.


Posted by: Rocky at June 28, 2006 1:35 PM
Comment #162753

Eagle

Philadelphia July 6, 1775:

“Our cause is just. Our union is perfect. Our internal resources are great, and, if necessary, foreign assistance is undoubtedly attainable. — We gratefully acknowledge, as signal instances of the Divine favour towards us, that his Providence would not permit us to be called into this severe controversy, until we were grown up to our present strength, had been previously exercised in warlike operation, and possessed of the means of defending ourselves.

With hearts fortified with these animating reflections, we most solemnly, before God and the world, declare, that, exerting the utmost energy of those powers, which our beneficent Creator hath graciously bestowed upon us, the arms we have been compelled by our enemies to assume, we will, in defiance of every hazard, with unabating firmness and perseverence, employ for the preservation of our liberties; being with one mind resolved to die freemen rather than to live slaves.

I keep reading this and can’t seem to find the term “we need a change of direction” or “redeployment”, heck I can’t find “exit strategy” either. I guess they were too stupid to do anything else but just “stay the course”.

Posted by: JR at June 28, 2006 1:55 PM
Comment #162760

I am truly amazed. Well, not really. A well written post is put on the blog. And all the writer can see is your wrong, wrong, wrong without any true rebuttal or factual response. And all kind of twist and spin on what is written. I fully understand why I am not a leftist, democrat, liberal or any other way of describing that belief structure.

Bring on Joe McCarthy, Gen. Douglas MacArthur and J. Edgar Hoover!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: tomh at June 28, 2006 2:03 PM
Comment #162797

Sic Eagle:
“If Radical Islam ever takes over this country, you’d be in in big trouble I think. You’d have to take off the leftie cheerleading costume and don a burka, which is very to do do back flips in, I think. Women are property under radicial Islam. Are you ready to be a chattel? Women’s rights? Zero. Think we’re neocons. They are KING Kong neo-cons. They want to kill and me, Adrienne. They can’t be reasoned with.”

Again, how can you say this with a straight face, and why are you not embarrassed? These comments are just completely IDIOTIC.
How on earth is Radical Islam going to take over America? Invasion force? With as much as we spend on the military? I don’t think so. Recruitment? Aren’t you righties always talking about how this is a predominantly Christian country? So that’s unlikely. I suppose Pakistan could drop a nuke on us —but wait, didn’t this administration trust them enough to sell them some of our own F-16’s because they thought it would “bring stability to the region”? Yeah they did, so at least for now, they’re supposed to be “our friends.” Perhaps one day Iran will want to drop a nuke on us, but in that case, wouldn’t it be more likely that women would be forced into shopping for radiation suits rather than burkas? Yes, in fact, so would all you men.
For now though, only terrorists coming through our borders is the threat we’ve face. Problem there of course, is that Bushco has almost totally neglected homeland and border security.
And yet, even despite that fact, if we were to face more terrorist attacks in this country, I very much doubt that such actions would result in a “Radical Islamic takeover” of America.

“Now, pass that hogwash.”

No. Enough. You’ve passed too much already.

Posted by: Adrienne at June 28, 2006 2:51 PM
Comment #162810

Adrienne

Islamofacism isn’t really interested in an immediate takeover of the US. Have you followed the events in Holland, UK, France? They will continue to migrate, populate and ignore assimilation until they are a large enough presence to intimidate local authority. Has Van Gogh’s killer come to justice? How about the stomping death of a bus driver in Holland by islamic youth gone wild? They don’t necessarily have to bomb us into the stone age, just wait long enough for apathy to build within our country. Kinda like yours.

Posted by: JR at June 28, 2006 3:03 PM
Comment #162815

Rocky,
“My support for the Times has more to do with the fact that, classified or not, the information was there, all the time, just waiting for someone to read it, and not some big secret. The program was out, apparently you were the only one that didn’t know about it.”

Wrong, again. The President told the Times not to run it and they did it anyway. Not to mention, there’s no reason to run something like that whatsoever. There was no threat or law-breaking by the gov’t; they had (absolutely) no reason to run that story. Now, they’re caught and so are there supporters. Bigtime!

Posted by: rahdigly at June 28, 2006 3:12 PM
Comment #162823

Adrienne

The trouble is you don’t see radical Islam as a threat. And it seems no one can convince you that we are in the middle of a world war.

Fortunately, others see it, and will defend your right to speak out . Unfortunately, you and the secular progressives don’t appreciate that sacrifice.

Posted by: sicilianeagle at June 28, 2006 3:24 PM
Comment #162825

JR,
Your comments are overflowing with hogwash, too.

“They will continue to migrate, populate and ignore assimilation until they are a large enough presence to intimidate local authority.”

And what does this have to do with conventional warfare? Absolutely Nothing.
Instead, this means America should be focusing on homeland security, and on intelligence operations both here and abroad. It’d also be a good idea if the American people in general would try to learn a lot more about Islam, and about how terrorists think.

“apathy to build within our country. Kinda like yours.”

Please. Don’t talk to ME about apathy, when your Dear Leader said he’s “just not that concerned” about Bin Laden, took his eye completely off the ball in Afghanistan to take the country into an unnecessary war in Iraq, and when he has been such a complete and total f*ck-up when it comes to homeland and border security.

Posted by: Adrienne at June 28, 2006 3:27 PM
Comment #162828

Adrienne

This is one source the killers use as “religious duty to allah” If you dismiss the author of the piece at least take the time to research the islamofacist inspirational hero of the Muslim Brotherhood, HAMAS, Islamic Jihad and Al Qaeda. Information is power. KNOW YOUR ENEMY

Posted by: JR at June 28, 2006 3:32 PM
Comment #162830

Sic Eagle,

What is really unfortunate, is that you righties don’t even try to use any logic or sense when you talk about this subject.

Posted by: Adrienne at June 28, 2006 3:34 PM
Comment #162833

Yes Adrienne

Our leader (unless you are not a citizen of the US) has totally dropped the ball. We’re still cleaning up after that attack last month, wait there wasn’t one. OK, the attack last year! Nope. Has he been less than stellar in my eyes when it comes to Mexico? You betcha! This constant harping about failure doesn’t pan out, in the war, security at home, the economy. Bin Laden has become marginalized by the constant pressure on him - that’s what GW meant. You good folks on the left really need to calm down. The hatred you hold and spew forth towards the President can’t be healthy for you, and a goodly portion of the time it just makes you look down right silly using all the keyboard curse words.

Posted by: JR at June 28, 2006 3:45 PM
Comment #162844

rahdigly,

“Wrong, again. The President told the Times not to run it and they did it anyway. Not to mention, there’s no reason to run something like that whatsoever. There was no threat or law-breaking by the gov’t; they had (absolutely) no reason to run that story. Now, they’re caught and so are there supporters. Bigtime!”

That the information was out there for all to see isn’t even open to debate, it was there whether you choose to believe it or not.

Posted by: Rocky at June 28, 2006 4:07 PM
Comment #162846

I wonder if the photo of bush jogging with the maimed vet made people think of this mans service and sacrifice and contrast that with the man jogging next to him who not only used his daddies influence to avoid Vietnam but also could not even perform the minimum duties expected of him in the texas National Guard. bush deserted his duties, not just once (Georgia) but twice (Massachusetts). Regards

Posted by: Charles Ross at June 28, 2006 4:17 PM
Comment #162852

Charles Ross

I thought Dan Rather retired? Dan, is this you? Nice screen name but your rhetoric gave you away. Oh, by the way, the reason you’re no longer at CBS is because the above story was bogus and you insisted on reporting it anyway.

Posted by: JR at June 28, 2006 4:29 PM
Comment #162855

There is a record of bush’s service in the texas national guard. I completely understand why you would not want to look too hard at it. Facts can be awfully confusing to those of us who are faith-based. Regards

Posted by: Charles Ross at June 28, 2006 4:35 PM
Comment #162863

As there is a record of Clinton’s dodging. It has nothing at all to do with this posting. Get a grip guys!

Posted by: JR at June 28, 2006 4:47 PM
Comment #162865

Charles:

The picture reminded me of how amputee Michael McNaughton jogged with Bush in 2004. It made me wonder why these men, in spite of their losses, would want to jog with the man ultimately responsible for sending them to Iraq.

They would have no reason to do so unless they supported his actions. Neither man has spoken against Bush, and their actions have spoken volumes for him.

If those who have truly suffered loss can find rational reasons to support Bush, I’d guess that the rational reasons are there. That doesn’t mean that all do—there are those who don’t.

But the picture you allude to reminds me of the honor and sacrice of our brave soldiers, and the respect with which they view our President.

Posted by: joebagodonuts at June 28, 2006 4:50 PM
Comment #162868
The trouble is you don’t see radical Islam as a threat. And it seems no one can convince you that we are in the middle of a world war… Posted by: sicilianeagle at June 28, 2006 03:24 PM
I see you chose to eschew rationality and eyesight, but; only the Commander of Chickhawks Bush and his minions see this as a war. Those with open eyes, which includes pretty much the rest of the world and many of us “libs” usually see it as what should have been, the equivalent of a police action.
War is only a cowardly escape from the problems of peace. Thomas Mann


Our leader (unless you are not a citizen of the US)..Posted by JR at June 28, 2006 03:45 PM
No your leader. My embarrassment.

Posted by: Dave1 at June 28, 2006 4:52 PM
Comment #162933

SE

Si’ Sono Siciliano Americano (2 generations American)

“The bright line I drew this morning was for the reasons cited above. You can’t be half way committed. In no uncertain terms, I support this president and the war effort. There is no grey there”

How can I have a rationale discussion with you when there is nothing rational in that statement. It Is pure emotion and blind patriotism. You didn’t address any of my points.

In Bush world facts, analysis and reality are irrevelant. All that matter is action. “Ready, Shooot, Aim” foriegn policy.

Posted by: Stefano at June 28, 2006 7:46 PM
Comment #162961

Stefano

Glad to talk to a paesan. I live in Sicily several months a year and I love it. Hopefully you will have the opportunity to visit your ancesteral homeland someday.

I was in Sicily the day the United States started bombing Iraq. I maintain a law office in downtown Catania. When I heard the news, I asked my law partner there, Massimo, if he would come with me to the nearby Navy Base in Sigonella. I remember seeing sand bags at every enterance, and soldiers in battle gear at every enterance. I parked the car, and the caribienri approached me and asked what I wanted. I told him that I wanted to wish my countrymen godspeed and that I would say a prayer for them. The sargent on duty at the gate that I was at, shook hands with me and the soldiers there, I think, appreciated seeing a friendly face in a foreign land.

Since then, I have developed friendships with people on the base, and I am proud of each and every one of them.

During the last presidential election,when the Bush/Kerry polls were neck and neck, one Sunday a couple of weeks before the election, I was in Zefferina D’Etna, a small hill town half way up Etna. I decided to do a poll myself. The result? 50 for Bush, 50 for Kerry…almost the same as here.

I leave for La Sicilia in mid-July for seven weeks. I usually spend that much time her, that much time there. At the University of Catania, there are many coffee houses that are socialist/communist in philosophy, and many a night I have spent debating the students and profs there.

If you look at some of my past posts, I have bashed the president plenty. About one million mistakes were made in the prosecution of this war, I figure. However, he is my president, and I am loyal to him. Must be a genetic thing, I guess.

Posted by: sicilianeagle at June 28, 2006 8:30 PM
Comment #163039
However, he is my president, and I am loyal to him. Must be a genetic thing, I guess. Posted by: sicilianeagle at June 28, 2006 08:30 PM
Nice story, but the quoted attitude is what got your native land a big Benito. Posted by: Dave1 at June 28, 2006 10:01 PM
Comment #163109

:^D Oh, that was a good one, Dave! Thanks for the belly-laugh.

Posted by: Adrienne at June 29, 2006 12:32 AM
Comment #163151

SE,

I re-post as you seem to choose to completly ignore it but continue your “zero attack since 9/11” mantra without reaction to my points:

Saddam was one piece of the puzzle. Iraq is now a killing ground for any terrorist who wants to do jihad against America. Better there than here. I have said that for four years. Plus I love the number zero. That’s how many attacks we have had on our soil since 9/11/01.

Forgot already about your friends coallitioners UK and Spain? Better in these countries than here?
That’s NIMBY applied to counter-terrorism. Nice and fair.

So, please, now stop using the argument that US in their so-called War on Terror are fighting for all westerners because, as you’ve shown, you don’t care about their soil and lives a bit but only your. Self-interest is self-interest, assume it and stop being hypocrit.

The cost of the war is bullshit too. American workers pay taxes on that money and it recycles itself. Raytheon, GE, Humvee manufacturers,and every other defense contractor pays Americans to built their stuff. Their workers get taxed. They spend their money. Those peopl who get their money pay taxes too. Get the picture? Even little old ladies who protest the war, cash their dividend checks of their mutual funds from these contractors. The cost of the war, rather is in the tradegy of those heros dead or wounded. There the price is inestimable. That is the price..the true price of freedom.

Yeah, who care about lost lives when war is, according to you and many, such a great money maker machine!? Better an asymetric war *forever*, every american who happen to survive will become richer!

War Is Costless? US business is War? Is it your argument??? Is it even an argument at all???
Seems you actually think it is or it should!!!
Complete disgrace, you said?

Your frenchly disgusted,

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at June 29, 2006 6:05 AM
Comment #163152

Phillippe Hudon

Hold on, amici. Of course I hate terror attacks ANYWHERE, including (of course) our coalition partners. Mt post was in response to Rocky’s…to show him that , despite what he said, SOMETHING is working here in the states.

Plus, I believe that US intelligence has been VERY helpful to Spain, France and England in catching the bad guys, so no I do not agree with you at all. Our (collectrive) interest is is hunting down terrorists before they attack our (collective) soil. Better?

Posted by: sicilianeagle at June 29, 2006 7:14 AM
Comment #163159

SE,

Plus, I believe that US intelligence has been VERY helpful to Spain, France and England in catching the bad guys, so no I do not agree with you at all. Our (collectrive) interest is is hunting down terrorists before they attack our (collective) soil. Better?

Hardly. If the US intelligence is/has been so helpful to Spain, France and England, why two of them were subject of terrorist attacks then?
These two countries were targetted because a) they side with US on Iraq War as even Blair had recognized since and b) because they’re easier targets than US: closer to middle east geopolitically.
And the Alliance agency in Europe may have contribute to zero attack in US a lot too, don’t you think.

Did you notice that France have see zero attack since 9/11 too. It’s not because arabs worldwide have a good image of us (the recent PEW reports show it has fall big). Should be another reason, no? What could it be???

I think that US Iraq War don’t help in counter-terrorism but make things worse, which threating an already unstable world peace.
One fact remains: innocent lives were lost and we can’t tell yet if it worth it…

And what about your argument that the (Iraq only?) war cost is not an issue at all and in fact is making money for America? Don’t you want to elaborate?

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at June 29, 2006 8:37 AM
Comment #163161

JR-
He’s right. U.S. News and World Report, on evidence independent from the Forged Documents that burned Rather, concluded that the president had not attended enough drills, and not made up the ones he missed with sufficient speed. To quote:

A review of the regulations governing Bush’s Guard service during the Vietnam War shows that the White House used an inappropriate—and less stringent—Air Force standard in determining that he had fulfilled his duty. Because Bush signed a six-year “military service obligation,” he was required to attend at least 44 inactive-duty training drills each fiscal year beginning July 1. But Bush’s own records show that he fell short of that requirement, attending only 36 drills in the 1972-73 period, and only 12 in the 1973-74 period. The White House has said that Bush’s service should be calculated using 12-month periods beginning on his induction date in May 1968. Using this time frame, however, Bush still fails the Air Force obligation standard.

Moreover, White House officials say, Bush should be judged on whether he attended enough drills to count toward retirement. They say he accumulated sufficient points under this grading system. Yet, even using their method, which some military experts say is incorrect, U.S. News ‘s analysis shows that Bush once again fell short. His military records reveal that he failed to attend enough active-duty training and weekend drills to gain the 50 points necessary to count his final year toward retirement.

The U.S. News analysis also showed that during the final two years of his obligation, Bush did not comply with Air Force regulations that impose a time limit on making up missed drills. What’s more, he apparently never made up five months of drills he missed in 1972, contrary to assertions by the administration. White House officials did not respond to the analysis last week but emphasized that Bush had “served honorably.”

Some experts say they remain mystified as to how Bush obtained an honorable discharge. Lawrence Korb, a former top Defense Department official in the Reagan administration, says the military records clearly show that Bush “had not fulfilled his obligation” and “should have been called to active duty.”

All this was based on records Bush released, records whose authenticity is not in question.

You see, this is how the game works: Your people get you worked up, encourage you to make broad assumptions about your rivals and what you say. Then little things like this escape your notice. After all, Dan Rather was wrong. How could anything he said possibly be right?

But not all evidence depends on the media’s credibility to be true, if they get something wrong. The records are sitting there, stating a fact. And yes, this does speak to the topic, because this topic is about how much braver and more disciplined Bush is than his colleagues. The truth is, though, Bush does not follow through. He supports Vietnam, but unlike Kerry or McCain he stays home. He goes into the National Guard, but then ends up not attending enough drills. Likely, his father bails him out, or the Guard gives him special treatment, because his attendance record, established as fact by the article linked above, does not merit such mercy by itself.

It could be argued that this lack of long term follow-through has not matured out of his character. He tells us he will get Bin Laden Dead or alive. It’s not half a year before he’s telling us that Bin Laden is not that important anymore. He invades Afghanistan, and justifiably so, but after knocking the Taliban from power, he turns to Iraq and leaves Afghanistan no longer the main focus. He does not devote more time and resources to finding the leaders of the Taliban or al-Qaeda in their hiding place, but instead focuses on Iraq.

Now Iraq may not intuitively seem to be a similar case of failed follow-through, especially to you, but it makes sense if you consider it in terms of it being an albatross around Bush’s neck, a project he tried to get done with his usual haste, but which events have entangled him and prevented his departure.

I think the repeated claims that the next event will begin the end of the war, is indicative of Bush’s wish that this be actually true. It’s because of such intense desire to keep Iraq short and sweet that the first plans involved no plan for occupation, went in light with soldier, expected to simply exchange the Saddam Regime for one of Iraqi Exiles, and then get out by August. Bush’s antipathy towards long term commitment shows in the refusal of his administration to provide more than a billion dollars for reconstruction (The Iraqis were going to take care of that with oil money), and more importantly the refusal to plan, much less execute a plan for a long term occupation.

Ironically Bush’s haste to get out of Iraq has ensured he’ll never be fully rid of it.

As for Islamofascism, I hold out very little hope for any theory of geopolitical organizing principles that can’t tell the difference between the Mubharak government and Egyptian Islamic Jihad (al-Zawahiri’s group), Saddam Hussein and the Ayatollah Khomeini, The Saudi Royals and Bin Laden. I have no respect for a theory which can’t see the rivalries between Sunni and Shiite, the distinctions between Turk, Persian, Kurd, or Arab, and which is too weak in its sight to perceive the crucial divide between Secular and religious, europhilic and anti-colonial. The word is used by Republicans so they can pretend that there is one enemy, that the situation is simple and so is the response.

But that’s not the case. Acting like it is will only ensure further screwups.

Joe-
I guess I’d have to say that it proves nothing, and disproves nothing. It’s a well known fact that some American Soldiers support Bush, and that other oppose him. Bush wants to present the world a picture of him with one who supports him. Okay, that’s not altogether unexpected, is it?

The funny thing about rational thought, I’ve discovered, is that despite our western culture’s tendency to separate reason from emotion, that emotion in fact plays a strong neurological role in reason and judgment.

Do I share the soldier’s respect for the president? No, I don’t. Could the soldier believe that I am irrational, and vice versa? We could indeed come to such conclusions. Would we be right? That’s the real humdinger of a question.

I believe the soldier has rational reasons for what he believes, but that I have rational reasons for my belief, supported by evidence that demands explanations. It is true that there are likely Iraq War vets who will not agree with what I’ve written.

What I have tried to do is make my opinions reasonable in my critics eyes, even if they are not persuasive in respect to them. I can only hope time and further revelations of the facts can finish what I have started, or yield to me facts to correct my errors.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at June 29, 2006 8:48 AM
Comment #163162

SE-
My brother informed me in an e-mail that the origins of the term “cut and run” was the practice of severing the anchor when a storm or an engagement by the enemy caught a ship off guard having weighed anchor. One would cut the anchor rather than be pinned to one spot by it as the storm blew down or the enemy closed on you.

Personally, I’ve always contended that we should calmly gather enough military power to bear to secure Iraq, and then step by step hand it over. Bush, though, seems poised to try his hand once more at trying to exit a strategy too quick for his own good.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at June 29, 2006 8:57 AM
Comment #163167

Stephen:

Charles commented on the picture of Bush jogging with the Iraq War veteran to denigrate the president. I showed how the very same picture could be used as a positive for the president. Charles’ opinion of the picture, and yours and mine, are far less personal that the opinion of the soldier choosing to jog with Bush. He’s the one with the loss of limb.

I agree the picture carries no proof…thus my comment showing a different viewpoint than Charles provided. And you are free to not respect our President…that is your right. I do respect him, and we both have our valid rationales for our thoughts.

I think there is a lot of nuance in the question of respect, since its not a black/white issue. I don’t like some of the administration policies (the Medicare deal, for example), but I like many others (tax cuts, for example). I don’t feel the need to support Bush on every single issue in order to support Bush. On the opposite side, I didn’t particularly like Clinton or his policies, but I did like his backing of welfare reform, however grudgingly, and I liked his intervention in Kosovo.

What I find interesting is those who admit that they cannot find ANY SINGLE THING about Bush to credit. The economy surges, they complain about inflation. The economy goes down, they complain about recession. Bush steps left, they complain he should have gone right. Bush steps right, they complain he should have gone left.

These are the people who are truly partisan. That they cannot give credit, even when credit is so obviously due, shows their mad level of partisanship. They exist on both sides, and we saw evidence of that during the Clinton administration, where some hated him so much that they could see nothing good, even when he co-opted Republican positions. I liked it when he did that—-it meant he was doing more of what I wanted him to do.

The partisans are typically the loudest and most shrill. They are easy to hear. So is a train whistle, but a train whistle doesn’t make the fine music that a violin does. A train whistle simply shrieks. So too do partisans.

Posted by: joebagodonuts at June 29, 2006 9:38 AM
Comment #163188

SE

Yes I have been to Siciliy and going back next year.

Nice story, but not sure your point. Are you saying that you are so infactuated with our US troops and the President that you give them blind loyality?

It sounds genetic, Sicilians are loayal to family…

Posted by: Stefano at June 29, 2006 11:17 AM
Comment #163236

Re: Joe’s comments about some people not finding anything good to say about bush is very true. Among my liberal friends the feeling is totally negative towards this President.
I do think that bush’s pro-active position in removing saddam hussein was a positive thing. His threats and the buildup of forces were the reason we were able to return the weapons inspectors to Iraq. That was certainly a good thing. His actual invasion of Iraq will ultimately be judged as a positive. It was just carried out so incompetently that it is difficult to see the end result.
The United States has always operated in a Machavellian way, behind the scene decisions that ended up costing many multiples of lives than have been lost in Iraq. Witness bush senior’s decision to maintain hussein in power in ‘91 as a counter to Iran. And believe me, whatever one might hear about the coalition “not having the authority”, COUNTERING Iran was the real reason. Bush’s actions represent to me one of the few decent, large scale, things we have done for a foreign people and he is to be commended for the act. He would have won the “04 election by 5 points instead of 2 had he not gone into Iraq.
I am 55 years old and must say I have never seen a more incompetent president. He is ruining the economy and destroying the middle class. That is unforgivable. I could give many, many examples of how his policies are doing just that and maybe I will in a future post. Regards

Posted by: Charles Ross at June 29, 2006 1:50 PM
Comment #163253

alefnaught, actually my point was exactly your point. It was a post in kind, if you will. The red wing posters with the exception of a few have a tendency to just post attacks on the character of the dems and the so called lefties.

In particular, SE has made a career of that. My point was that Reps are as immoral as many of the Dems are. Rather than slur each other, why not discuss the value of strategy or tactics and policy. My particular gripe with SE is his continued attacks on Murtha, who in my opinion has spoken truth to a power that is lying to Americans in a vain politcal policy that is killing Americans for this political advantage. I have posted many replies to SE on this issue.

Posted by: gergle at June 29, 2006 2:34 PM
Comment #163255

Aldous, I’m confused. IS your repeated post of we must stay til all terrorist are dead sarcasm or your real belief? You say it with such a dead pan face I cannot tell.

Posted by: gergle at June 29, 2006 2:36 PM
Comment #163370

Joe-
First and foremost, it’s easier to defend somebody you like. Bush, following Rove’s advice, and his own inclination took an aggressive tack on politics in all three of the major elections. He got off to a bad start by being so aggressive about the recount. In such cases, aggression comes off to the other side as disregard for their enfranchisement, an attempt to subvert the value of their vote.

Then came 9/11. Golden Opportunity. He said what needed to be said, to everybody, anybody.

Then came 2002, and he screwed it all up. First he failed to follow through with his promises on Bin Laden. Some bought his line, but many people felt he should go after him until the bitter end. I was one of them. That was my breaking point right there. Then came the 2002 elections.

If failing to go to the fullest after Bin Laden was a disappointment to some, the 2002 elections were a slap in the face. Here the president was taking the agreed upon course of the War on Terrorism, and deviating greatly from it, with little real explanation. Moreover, guess who were the designated targets on all this? The case for war and the initial victories created something of a redemption for Bush, but when the foundation of the war turned out to be almost uniformly incorrect, that marked yet another turning point.

2004 was a vicious campaign, once more, and that elevated the dislike for Bush, especially as things failed to get done in the country. Leaving Fallujah and Najaf open for that long was unacceptable.

2005 was 2005. Murphy was president, and his law governed everything: just about anything that could go wrong, did go wrong, and even people who stood by Bush in the 2004 elections broke with him. For us?

Well, I guess it comes down to the second point. Bush’s successes have been few and far between. He’s allowed things to go wrong on levels that no other president would have allowed, much less excused. When somebody screws things up that badly, how would one feel motivated to look for good things to point out?

Bush dug the hole he’s in. My suggestion is that he waste no time trying to dig himself and his party out, instead of whining about how unfair it is to be unpopular. Playing for sympathy only works when folks have some left.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at June 29, 2006 6:26 PM
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