Republicans & Conservatives: Archives

SE,

You might want to link to the original story so we all can read it and make our own judgement.

Try this one. If it doesn’t link, the associated press and yahoo has lead stories on him today.

Murtha

Eagle,

Start your post by calling a decorated veteran a jerk. Classy, real classy. And it takes one to know one, Eagle.

Try this one.If it doesn’t link,the associated press and yahoo has klead stories on him today.

Murtha

Elliot Bay

If the shoe fits….

His being a vet isn’t going to shield him from me anymore.

Gloves off this time.

He is what he is.

SE:

Typical Republican bait and switch. Talk about the “unpatriotism” and “unsupport of troops” by Murtha. DON’T talk about the massive pressures the Marines are under. NEVER mention that these particular Marines are on their THIRD Tour in Iraq. Forget that part. Its Murtha that’s the problem.

And you are what you are.

This one doesn’t look good at all. If these allegations are true, they make these Marines look like an SS death squad. In summation, their convoy was hit by an IED which killed one and wounded two others. Witnesses say that the Marines in question then systematically went through three houses and killed the occupants, then fired on a taxi full of college students. 24 Iraq civilians, including several women and six children, were killed

I saw a quote from Congressman Murtha saying this is worse than Abu Graib. That doesn’t go nearly far enough. I realize that I’ve been a bit harsh before and went farther than I meant to out of anger when describing my feelings , but if these allegations, which are supported by eyewitness testimony, are true they are a stunning departure from all codes of civilized conduct. Only My Lai comes to mind as an appropriate comparison in the history of the American military.

Even worse, it would seem that the NCO in charge of the Marines falsified a report and made it seem that the Marines were acting to defend themselves from a follow-up attack by insurgents. I agree that these Marines deserve thier day in court, but if found guilty, the stockade is nowhere near adequate. These are death penalty offenses and should be treated as such.

Perhaps the worst part of this is that the insurgents had placed the bomb as far from the houses as possible to rry and avoid inflaming the residents against them. This will be far worse than Abu Graib in terms of inflamming the anger of Iraqis and all Muslims against us. Life in Baghdad just got a lot more complicated.

Quite Republican of you to attack a decorated war veteran ON MEMEORIAL DAY WEEKEND.

WE SHOULD ACTUALLY THANK MURTHA FOR BEING THE MOST OUTSPOKEN DEFENDER OF VETERANS IN OUR GOVERNMENT.

btw, Murtha would wipe the floor with you if the gloves ever came off.

Eagle

when someone starts out a post with obsenities and pesonal attacks,it reflects on you (collectively)

Murtha just seems to have lost his grip. We can acknowlege his previous service and still recognize what he has become. I don’t know if he is jerk, but he is clearly wrong. My guess would be that it is more 14 carrat.

The sitation is being properly investigated. He does not need to jump to conclusions or speculate in detail about things nobody yet knows about.

Aldous
No,I am talking about him opening his big fat mouth …again….this time before charges are brought and a trial is held.

Right now,web savy insurgents are smirking…again ….thanks to Murtha.

His pre-emptively going public before due process has even had a chance to be played out serves no purpose other than to send a bad message out there ..nothing else..

Elliot Bay

Thank you.You can call me a jerk so long as I can call Murtha a jerk.No problem.

Note I didn’t call you a jerk though.

How about defending the guy,so we can discuss what he did?

Elliot bBay

Calling someone a jerk isn’t an obsenity…calling someone a ratfuck is (that is what I was called over on the other side).

Now,if you consider me calling Murtha a jerk a personal attack,review the defination:

noun (plural jerks)

Definition:

1. sudden yank: a sudden strong pulling movement
giving the door a jerk

2. jolting motion: a bumping or jolting motion
moving in jerks

3. twitch: a spasmodic movement in a muscle

4. offensive term: an offensive term for somebody who is regarded as behaving foolishly ( slang insult )

5. overhead lift in weightlifting: a lift in weightlifting in which a barbell is thrust from shoulder height to above the head

Number 4 applies.

He behaved foolishly.

Daren 159

Don’t think so.Many many vets that I know are steamed at him.

1LTb
These are very serious charges that should be decided in a military court…not exploited for politicial purposes by an administration opponent.

BTW
I wouldn’t be so sure.I kicked bigger ass in a previous life.
Now I am compassionate..

We all know that there is no honor is military service unless you agree with Bush and ignore what’s massively wrong with Iraq. Anyone who doesn’t see Iraq through Bush’s rose colored glasses is obviously in bed with the terrorists.

SE - when you can show dedication and heroics beyond that of Murtha, then your comments will carry weight. Until then - you’re basically a chicken-hawk.

BTW - this had gone for 6 months without movement… and Murtha saw this as a symptom of stress on our soldiers, and if we wanted to avoid more of the same, we had better do something now - and not wait “they get their day in court.”

( http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12838343/ )

IMO - you REPs who will lynch-mob every war hero who disagrees with Bush - YOU HAVE NO HONOR. YOU ARE ANTI-AMERICAN.

Sicilian,
Iraq is a battle for hearts and minds. The Haditha massacre has been common knowledge for a while. The Iraqis already knew about it, and the pictures were already out there. I knew about it. I am surprised so many people were unaware of this.

You are upset because Murtha made Americans aware of the massacre.

I wish this were not a topic on this particular weekend.

Like so much of the situation surrounding Iraq, the Bush administration fails to consider Iraqi perspectives, and treats Iraq as if it were purely a matter of US needs, of winning domestic hearts and minds here at home.

We held elections to make the nation of Iraq a democracy. Repubicans waved purple thumbs in the air. Great for domestic consumption, great for US hearts and minds-

But those elections were unspeakably stupid.

I wrote about it then, here on Watchblog, as it happened. We never considered what it would take to win the hearts and minds of people in the region.

Iraq was a colonial construction put together by Winston Churchill to facilitate oil companies in the 1920’s. No one bothered to ask the Iraqis if they wanted to be together in a country in the first place.

And now, here we are. Let it be. The ethnic cleansing is proceeding apace, the Death Squads are busy. Give them enough time, and the Sunnis & Shias & Kurds will seperate into their own enclaves.

Because another way to win hearts and minds is to reduce the number of hearts and minds.

1LT,
Were I implementing the UCMJ, I would be extremely reluctant to impose the death penalty or even a prison sentence on the soldiers who committed the massacre… perhaps a sentence for the NCO, and certainly for the officer in charge. Ok, maybe for the soldiers. This was pretty horrifying. But even then, I would prefer to see any punishment commuted. Symbolic action would be preferable, followed by a quiet discharge and lots of lots of psychiatric counseling.

Tony

Nice.

How would you like it if one of your sons was in that marine unit and you see on TV a Congressman trying and convicting him BEFORE either an investigation was completed OR charges were brought?

I don’t care who the congressman is…dem or republic…it’s just plain stupid to do so.

As far as me being anti-american and a chicken hawk..that’s your opinion.

We can at least agree to disagree can’t we?

phx8

You are correct…why this weekend of all weekends except as a cheap politicial shot?

That’s the point of my post…no charges yet…no trial…and yet on Memorial Day weekend he’s on the Sunday morning talk shows.

As far as your other comments you my be correct ….but I am willing to see how the new government plays out a bit,and I think that ultimately it will play out.

Again,an “Iraqi” form of democracy will emerge which will not be like ours but given the culture may prove to have been worth the effort,money and blood.

SE,
Interesting post, by ignoring what Mr. Murtha said,and by mischaracterizing his statements, you convict him of being a jerk.
Kettle meet the pot.
I’m glad you’ve discovered jurisprudence. When are you going to discover common sense?
Up to your usual standards. Thanks for the blather.

Sissy Eagle- its obvious that you were not in any branch of the service,or you would know that it is called a court martial.
Do atrocities happen? Yes,sadly.
Do misinformed idiots,fan the flames of hate,by blindly jumping up and down shouting “Look,look,he is evil”.
Do us all a favor,don’t throw wood into an already badly smelling blaze.
Anyone remember Lt. Calley in the Mi Lai incident?
Justice will prevail,no matter which way it turns out.

I read thru these comment and find the same glaring statements that are prevalent in the mainstream media….”Murtha is decorated hero”…And for some reason this entitles him to some special consideration as to what he has to say…

I too am a decorated combat Veteran (“hero”), not unlike many of my brothers who have served….Does this give us the same “consideration” and Murtha?..I certainly hope not as what happened in a moment years ago doesn’t make EVERY WORD WE UTTER to be above reproach…

I would hope that many would think of this the next time you hear someone who’s primary credential is being a “decorated Veteran”..

As to the ‘alleged” murders, I think EVERYONE should reserve judgement until ALL THE FACTS have been revealed…..Seems there are a lot of “ass-umptions” being made without them….

jblym, your name calling and implications that others here at WB are idiots won’t be tolerated. Critique the Message, Not the Messenger, or lose your privilege to comment here.

gergle, discuss the content of the messages, NOT the author’s of them. That is the meaning of Critique the Message, Not the Messenger. This will be your only warning before losing comment priviliges on this site.

When are you going to discover common sense? Up to your usual standards.

phx8,

Gotta disagree about the light sentance. Based on the story of what happened so far, these Marines basically committed war crimes more commonly associated with gangs in Darfur or Somalia than with the US military. All the evidence says that they didn’t just overreact. They deliberately massacred unarmed women and children along with men in a systematic way and then attempted to cover it up. I don’t deny that they were under a lot of stress, but the nature of what is alleged to have happened precludes anything but a strong prosecution. This isn’t something debatable, like when the Marine shot an insurgent who was playing dead, this was a deliberate and systematic series of murders in three seperate houses. There is no way to whitewash this, we probably just suffered our worst setback to date.

Dear Watchblog Managing Editor:
First,I must apologize for my apparent misspelling of Sicilian. I did not realize in my zeal to respond that I had inadvertantly insulted my fellow American. In regards to calling others at the WB idiots,I beg to differ. I cut a garment that was for general wear,if someone felt that it was a custom fit item,that sounds like a personal problem.
Please believe that I have no animosity towards any one in particular,and wish only to ridicule the ill-advised idea that any of us is above reproach. Or that we help ourselves by pre-judging others. This is a time for careful contemplation and reasoned action,not yellow journalism.

jblym

Well,I am happy that me post provoked zeal on your part!

Please answer this question:Is it correct that a sitting congressman disclose to the world the fact that an alleged atrocity occured and that marines were guilty of doing it PRIOR to an investigation and a court proceeding?

1LT,
You may be right about the need for a severe sentence. One of the victims was a three year old girl. Another was a 76 year old man. Innocent people were killed in their own homes.

I would need to hear the evidence.

Depressing. Another example of why resorting to violence or going to war should be a last resort.

I suspect most Iraqis have already reached their own conclusions about American troops in Iraq, so I doubt the Haditha massacre will make much difference.

Here in the US, I suspect it will not matter that much either. The corporate owned MSM usually avoids this kind of news. The media are in it for profits, not to inform, and issues like this are bad for ratings. Advertisers want everyone to be in the mood to buy a new SUV, you know.

jblym, but this is a site in which tossing around the word idiots as a fishnet for other WB visitors is not tolerated. Call Kerry or Bush idiots if you wish, that is fair game. But, to imply that their supporters (which includes a third of WB’s visitors) are idiots for supporting them, is a breach of our policy.

Please comply with the policy, Critique the Message, Not the Messengers at WB.

Aldous —

By your comments re: Murtha being a hero I must assume that you are also a defender of the greatest detractor of — and liar about — the American serviceman this country has ever seen: one John Kerry.

/s/ Proud Vietnam Veteran

SE:

Considering what happened to Pat Tillman and on Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo and NSA Wiretapping and the Canadian Soldiers and everything else, Murtha was probably afraid of a cover-up.

I’m first inclined to answer”I take the fifth”.
But I am not a Republican in Congress and therefore by definition have nothing to hide. To answer your question directly,I would say the following. It probably was not smart that the Congressman brought the cart before the horse,but even so He was offering his opinion. Reasoning people realize that he is neither judge nor jury.
Any attempt by him to capitalize on this information will most likely come back to bite him in the ass.
Since your asking my specific opinions,I will also add that I find it almost incomprehensible that you not only feel the need to show glee in regards to this,but actually seem to be encouraging its use by terrorists.

Ray Clary:

Kerry was lying? That’s wonderfull news!!!

I am so glad Mai Lai never happened and soldiers fragging their own officers are just fictions. To think that I spent all these years believing that the B-52 carpet-bombing killed civilians accidentally!!!

I am also so glad the Gulf of Tolkin Incident really took place. And here I thought Vietnam happened because idiots in the White House and military command made a mistake…

Whew!!!

Dear watcblog managing editor.
I do sincerly appreciate the fact of your quick response. Being relatively new to the watchblog,perhaps you would indulge me in a bit more definition. For example,If I was to call anyone who disagreed with my calling them foolish an idiot,that would be improper,yes?
However,if in a general statement,I was to encourage the use of the word idiot in describing anyone in political power,that would be o.k.?
Does this mean that while its all right to call people at the federal level of government idiots,this does not apply to state and local legislatures? I admit to some confusion,and I,for one am no idiot.

jblym

Ah…finally some debate…my response to your post:

“To answer your question directly,I would say the following. It probably was not smart that the Congressman brought the cart before the horse,but even so He was offering his opinion.”

It is one thing for you or I to make scandoulous accucations,but it is completely another for a Congressman,who has access to millions both here and abroad to make such accusations prior to an investigation being concluded.For your information,not only is Marines investigating,but also the Army…who wasn’t involved…just to make sure what the facts are.Him opening his mouth prematurely is the problem.See?

“Since your asking my specific opinions,I will also add that I find it almost incomprehensible that you not only feel the need to show glee in regards to this,but actually seem to be encouraging its use by terrorists. “

Glee?I am out of my mind with anger,not glee.Plus this story has been picked up my all the wire services…just as Murtha intended.
AFTER the investigation was completed,Murtha could have been free to say whatever he wished….the nub here is the pre-emptive manner of him doing so.

AFTER the investigation was completed,Murtha could have been free to say whatever he wished…the nub here is the pre-emptive manner of him doing so.

Considering how many cover-ups we had lately, Murtha was probably afraid it would be classified as a State Secret.

“AFTER the investigation was completed,Murtha could have been free to say whatever he wished….the nub here is the pre-emptive manner of him doing so.”

So - as I to assume that you value presentation over prevention? Style over substance?

Do you really think that this has added fuel to anti-American feeling? What do you think the rumors are in Iraq? “Did you hear what teh Americans did, and their comanders did nothing about it.”

The last part is what Murtha did something about. Also, did you read the article I linked to? The fact that Murtha has been proven right doesn’t impact your views on this?

Americans: Evil at heart, but at least we look good. Is this statement OK with you?

Sic-
Jihadist poster boy ? Who are you kidding?
Inflammatory rhetoric! Yellow journalism!
You wrap yourself in undeserved righteous anger and fan the flames !
(Sorry,watchblog editor,but he did ask me)
This is the worst kind of nonsense. Unless you are a political neophyte,you must realize that all congressmen are walking talking advertisements for re-election.
Take the information as given,try to ascertain the facts,but don’t even pretend that you are doubly sad about anything except the fact that you couldnt blast the congressman even more.

Aldous

Your statement is an oxymoron. You know about all these thing that you say were covered up, right? And how did Murtha find out. He didn’t tell us anything new. I really do wonder why he felt the need to do what he did.

Yes, Americans are held to a higher standard than most others. But we don’t need to immediately emphasize every accusation before we know that facts.

Revelations

Why does Murtha consider it a good thing to make a preemptive strike against the U.S. Marine Corps?

Tony

I don’t know about this. We always tell ourselves and others tell us that they respect the fact that we face up to our mistakes. Yet the counter examples seem to disprove this. Consider the Chinese. They have failed to acknowledge the horrors of the Cultural Revolution for 40 years. More people died as a direct or indirect results of Chinese policies during this time than in ALL the wars the U.S. has ever fought in more than 200 years. Yet the Chinese reputation, according to some polls, is much higher than America’s. The Iranians have killed more Muslims that Americans ever could. Or consider the Sudan, where Muslims are being murdered every day and no Muslim (besides the ones being killed) seems to care.

I am not trying to justify U.S. actions. I agree that we live at a higher standard, but I am honestly perplexed as to why others get a free pass.

And if America is evil at heart, who (besides maybe Scandinavians) would qualify as good given their behaviors in the last half century?

Jack:

Actually, Murtha was the first official to confirm it. The reports in Time were just rumors.

Do you think Time Magazine is unamerican, Jack?

Maybe you think its better for the media to speculate instead.

Here’s the latest

here

Already,as the article in al jazzra above shows,America is guilty as charged.

The cat is out of the bag now…

Aldous

In America we have a free media. Nobody is afraid to criticize their government. Although lots of people stand up on their hind legs and CLAIM they are being silence. The cacophony from the silenced critics is deafening.

In fact criticism of the government is usually very well rewarded.

Critics of the U.S. have a great time. They get the radical status without any risk. It takes real courage to speak truth to power in China or Russia. In Muslim countries you can be murdered for drawing a picture. In the U.S. you get a lucrative book or movie contract.

Every jihadist is reading this sentence:

“He also said that the U.S. troops killed those civilians “in cold blood.”
Jack Murtha

Nice.

sic
no glee huh?

SE-
Under even the best conditions, war puts stress on the characters of those involved. A poorly executed war, can do far worse. Murderous frustrations and firearms are not a good combination. This war, with it’s multiple tours of duty and frustrating and constantly dangerous environment, is putting our young soldiers under intense psychological stress.

The Bush administration is asleep at its post on getting these people counselling for the PTSD, which is a very real, neurologically based stressed disorder. This war is actually damaging the parts of their brain within the limbic system that deal with memory and emotion.

We want to protect our soldiers from losing face with the rest of the world, but we can’t do that by denying the truth. If we really want to make a difference here, we must face the truth, and then change what’s going on in truth to deal with the problem. Loyalty to our soldiers should not be confused with a code of silence that protects the guilty, both in the field and in Washington.

“Already,as the article in al jazzra above shows,America is guilty as charged.

The cat is out of the bag now…”

… and you think keeping quite until the “cat is out of the bag” from someone at www.aljazeera.com is a better move? Let’s all worry about how we look and forget trying to solve the problem at hand.

“I will not excuse murder, and this is what happened,” Murtha said. “This investigation should have been over two or three weeks afterward and it should have been made public and people should have been held responsible for it.”

These are issues we MUST face, and sweeping it under the rug will only add fuel to their fire.

SE - why are you so fired up on shooting the messenger? And not one word against the people who carried out this slaughter?

As far as presumed innocence… or assumed guilt…

Right now, the soldiers that were there are assumed guilty, and that is bad.

If this story had remained un-covered, The US Military would’ve been assumed guilty.

Which would you choose?

Stephen

There is something between a code of silence and shouting every charge from the rooftops.

In a reasonably large number of cases, bad things will happen. We can recognize that and let the courts do their work.

We do our best to save civilian lives, while are enemies seek to maximize them. A dozen civilians killed is an everyday goal (not error) among the jihadis. Let’s not pretend than anyone among them is scandalized. Let’s also recognize that if these guys had their way, killing civilians would be routine.

In fact, they regularly threaten, beat and murder anyone who doesn’t toe their line. It is how they operate. When it happens among us we recognize it as a crime.

So I will accept criticism of the U.S. ONLY if we first stipuate that the standard for us is higher AND we are far superior to the alternative.

Let me see if I get your point. Murtha was briefed on the issue, saw the video, and, would seem to have been pretty much convinced by what he heard and saw to feel there’s basis to the reports. He reported to the American public what he perceived as a scandal worse than Abu Ghraib. This is irresponsible? He is irate at the attempt to cover up this issue?

Did George Bush say Hussein ALLEDGEDLY killed hundreds of innocent people when an assassination attempt failed? I’m fairly sure he has already jailed, tried, and convicted Hussein. Are the hundreds of detainees at Gitmo guilty? Or has Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld jailed, tried, and convicted them without trial? Is the NSA surveillance program an example of the administrations’ adherence to due process, innocent until proven guilty, or are they accusing every American of being guilty until proven innocent? Was Bush ALLEDGING Iraq might have had WMDs? Or was he adamant that they did have WMDs?

Murtha forgot to be politically correct and preface his remarks with “alledgedly”. If he were not fairly convinced the issue is provable, I think he would not have been quite so strong in his convictions. The jihadists don’t need Murtha to support their belief that Americans can be hippocrites or that atrocities may be happening in the Iraq War. If they needed an American politician to support their cause, then 9/11 would have never happened. They have plenty of motivation for their actions without anyone in this country affirming their agenda. Video is a strong impetus for extending hatred, however. The Watts riots presented a prime example of the power of pictures.

I am a veteran and proud of it. But I also have enough sense to know that being a veteran doesn’t automatically relegate one to sainthood. Perhaps Murtha will prove to be a 24-karat jerk, but for now you are a nickle-plated rebel rouser who has a personal problem with Murtha. If the truth bothers you, stick with Bush. He has plenty of wool for your eyes.

KDTEXAS

The point is that Murtha went public and buried these marines BEFORE the investigation was complete and BEFORE they are tried.

If they are guilty,so be it:throw the book at them.

However Murtha has no reason other than to exploit an already explosive situation.

Stephen
The point of the piece is to critize a sitting congressman for opening his mouth prior tothe completion of a criminal investigation and prior to a military court proceeding.

That’s is.

It served no useful purpose other than inflame the situation.None.

Its funny noone mentions that this is the Marine’s third tour of duty in Iraq.

I guess WHY is not as important as appearance.

jblym

Only profound sadness actually.

Aldous

As an attorney I would use that in building my defense in order to attempt to mitigate the crime.

Again,that’s not the point of my piece:

A congressman went public about an alleged atrocity prior to an investigation being completed and a trial on the merits held.

That’s it.

Limit the discussion to that narrow point.

Jack-
You think I’m that naive about who these people we’re fighting are? It is precisely that sociopathic opportunism that I want to short circuit.

The thing about it is, they cannot make up their atrocities out of thin air. They either have to fictionalize something plausible, or come up with something real and tell it their own way.

We cannot avoid mistakes, or occasional atrocities on account of people going haywire, but we can put together policy that drops the risk factors for these events, gets them out in the open, and publically resolves them in a way that shows people by fact and deed that we are better than our opponents.

We’d better do so, because an image and a reputation supported by bullshit cannot long stand assault by the facts. You can assert all you want to that our standards are higher, but if that is not true in fact and deed, it will do us little good to say so.

SE-
There’s something more in your responses than just some procedural complaint about him going public. There’s a resistance here to the notion that we could actually go so wrong.

It’s an understandable resistance. I was shocked to learn of many of the things I hear about our government and these soldiers are doing. I wish things were done better. Fact of the matter is, though We mustn’t block out unpleasant facts. Murtha evidently felt that there was enough evidence to stick his neck out and say these things. He could still be wrong, but the likelihood is, something really did go terribly wrong that day.

There might have been one or two bad apples, but its likely many of those involved were no different than you or I, aside from the choice they made.

“Limit the discussion to that narrow point.”

Why? If you limit the discussion far enough, and idea is valid. You attack a war hero who came out to force this atrocity to be delt with… up till he came forward, this investigation was stalled. Seems to be “ignore it and it will go away.” Same approach by this Administration… it’s failed before, it has failed now.

So, let’s attack the messenger and ignore what happened. Why no word about the crime that was committed? Yea, I know, prosecute first and then discuss it. But we’re not talking about individual names or individual crimes… we’re talking about war crimes that happened, and it’s been proven. Let’s leave conviction of individuals to the courts… So far, I’ve not heard a single name mentioned yet… so I can’t see any issue with what’s been uncovered.

“Limit the discussion to that narrow point.”

Heh. I think we limiting to narrow points is what got us into this mess.

As for making it public, it already was public. Don’t you read Time?

The ISSUE here is WHY it happened. Something SE obviously doesn’t want to talk about. The fact the marines would do this reflects the massive psychological strain repeated deployments has wrecked upon them. ANd Bush The Decider wants to keep them there indefinitely?

Ofcourse, SE doesn’t want to talk about that.

I wonder when it happens again, what spin SE will post.

Aldous and Stephen
I will post an appropriate response tonite after I take my girlfriend to see the Da VCinci Code.

While Opus Dei is doing whatever they do,O will ponder an answer for the ages.

Stay tuned.

People the point that most are missing in their haste to vilify the war, president, or whatever else is that no matter who you are and no matter what titles or awards you have receive gives you the right to slander another American.

“Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood,”

We is his proof. Is he the prosecuting attorney? Is this statement based on any actual evidence that he has looked over? If they are guilty treat them like scum after it proven. An apology to an innocent man after dragging his name through the mud is worthless. Try them in court not in the media. Give them their due process and they are innocent until proven guilty. This is not about Bush, being a rep., or conser. It is about supporting kids far from home facing death everyday and watching friends go home maimed or in boxes.

This country did a great disservice to its Veitnam vets. Lets not repeat the mistakes of our past

Sic,
It appears to me that neither you nor most your opponents actually read the article you linked too. The emphasis of the article was on whether there was a cover-up. Yes, I agree that Murtha spoke out of turn, but apparently had he not gotten involved, no one would have taken this incident as seriously as it should have been taken.

On May 17, Murtha is quoted as saying

The shootings last November at Haditha, …

… Iraq has been plagued by insurgents, were

covered up, said Rep. John Murtha (news, bio, voting record), D-Pa.

“Who covered it up, why did they cover it up, why did they wait so long?” Murtha said on “This Week” on ABC. “We don’t know how far it goes. It goes right up the chain of command.”

Apparently,Time Magazine broke a story regarding the incident at Haditha, after having received a video showing what appears to be the actually events.

Murtha then tried to bring the story to the for-front, when he stated that he believed the massacre was brought on by

“Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood,” John Murtha told reporters. The November 19 incident occurred in Haditha, Iraq.

The incident at Haditha has sparked two investigations: one into the deadly encounter itself and another into whether it was the subject of a cover-up.

Had Murtha kept his mouth shut, it is entirely possible that the new investigation that started in March might have ended the same way the original investigation did - no where.

Murtha, who said he based his assertions on briefings he received from high-level military officials, added: “There was an investigation right afterward, but then it was stifled.”

He said he did not know how far up the chain of command responsibility for the alleged cover-up goes.

“But we cannot allow something like this to fester,” said Murtha, who warned that the Haditha killings would undermine the war effort in Iraq and be used as propaganda by radical Islamists fighting the United States. “We’re set back every time something like this happens,” he said.

Murtha is not alone in his desire for an investigation be done regarding how Marine officials handled the incident.

Senator John Warner told ABC news the Senate committee he heads would probe “what happened and when it happened and what was the immediate reaction of the senior officers in the Marine Corps when they began to gain knowledge of it.”

I honestly believe Murtha is more concerned with the apparent ‘cover-up’ than the deaths. While I think that the deaths are atrocious, Murtha maybe be right, I too find myself more concerned about the potential possibility of an other “mistake” (Bush did admit there were a few), better known as playing with the facts, or more easily called a ‘cover-up’. If there is one, there is likely to be others… at least that is my belief.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/05/28/D8HSRKTG0.html
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060528/pl_nm/iraq_usa_marines_dc_1
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-28-murtha-fallout_x.htm?csp=34
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060528/ap_on_go_co/marines_iraq_investigations_24
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/05/17/060518003922.gghhmjpk.html
http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=11391

KD

You would think Murtha would be on our side. That’s all. Why jump to the worst possible conclusions about your own people before you know all the facts?

Stephen

They CAN make up atrocities out of thin air. When they get some real ones, they use it to bolster the others. During the old Soviet Union days, they had a whole organization to make up disinformation. It didn’t have to be true if they could make it plausible.

Murtha type comments play into this. It becomes the FLOOR for their lies. You can imagine how they sell it. The Americans admit to this, it must be much worse. When Murtha and others extrapolate, they do their country a disservice.

We should and do go through the legal proceedings. We don’t need the speculation. The bad guys will do that by themselves.

I think we have taken this self criticism too far. We have allowed others to hold us to an absolute theoretical standard. Meanwhile, our adversaries carry on an active disinformation campaign. They murder civilians and blame us and we investigate, as we should. The insurgents specifically fight among civilians hoping some will be killed. And when insurgents are killed they claim they are civilians.

My father landed at D-Day and participated in the Battle of the Bulge. He told me stories about the war and I suppose some of them were true. Had we fought that war with the same scrutiny we pay now, we never would have won.

And Aldous

War is all about fighting and when there is fighting people get killed. Insurgents fight among and pose as civilians. That violates the Geneva Convention BTW and disqualifies them as legitimate fighters. When we have excesses, we investigate. When we find people guilty, we punish them. I regret any situation where American troops behave poorly, but I see no reason to apologize for the GENERAL behavior of American troops. At no time in the history of the world have troops generally behaved better in a war zone. You guys can point all the fingers you want.

I will always counter with the truth. And you know I am right about the U.S. otherwise you would not dare write about the U.S. as you do.

we must be careful cutting garments for general wear as the tailor has only themselves as models and the mirror to reflect the fit.

Linda H.

Terrific post.Now I want to focus on just one thing in your post:

“Yes, I agree that Murtha spoke out of turn, but apparently had he not gotten involved, no one would have taken this incident as seriously as it should have been taken.”

So we both agree that he spoke out of turn.That is precisely my point.

Now for the rest of your sentence:Jack Murtha is a powerful guy.He could have forced a thourough investigation internally…as a matter of fact two,WERE going on.One by the Marines and one by the Army,who was not involved to make damn sure they git it right.He knew that.Yet instead of waiting for the investigation to be complete,he went public.If in fact he had gone to the defense secretary and Rummy stonewalled it,Murtha would have been the first to say so.He would have screamed that point to high heaven.He didn’t say that though,did he?

Tonite ABC broke video of a 12 year old survivor…her entire family was wiped out.Somebody intentionially killed somebody it appears.Note I said “it appears”.If these marines did in fact kill somebody,they must be severly punished.Severly.However,due process must take its course.

That is why I am steamed.

Now to respond to both Stephen and Aldous.

In the American Revolution,The American Civil War,The Spanish American war,WWI,WWII,Korea,Vietnam,the Gulf war,I am sure atrocities were committed by our forces somewhere.Nobody fights by the Marquis di Queensbury rules in war,and the human spirit,when faced with shocking and tumultous events reacts in many many ways.

Some with fear,some with valor.The fog of war its called.

The “why this happened” here,in an unjust war as you claim,is precisicely the same as say,”why this happened” in WWII.

In and of itself,the justness or unjustness of a war does not compel soldiers to commit murder.

Rather,each individual has his breaking point…weak ones supposedely are vetted out in basic training and psychologial tests,but this is an imperfect science.

If there was in fact a cover-up(and I am not saying there was) but if that was so,every officer in the chain of command culpable should be disciplined,and severly as well.

However,this is getting the cart before the horse.

My beef is with Murtha and his going public,that’s it.

If you agree with that issue,then point taken by me.

All other issues,I haven’t championed.

Yet.

IIIplus2-
The best defense for libel is the truth. If it is in fact true, and it seems they caught this on videotape, then calling it slander is inaccurate.

The support our people over there need is leadership that does not let problems like these multiply and become grist for the propaganda mills of our enemies. Nothing will hurt us so much as a disturbing truth that we refuse to face.

Jack-
Murtha’s seen the video. Have you? If it shows U.S. Soldiers doing what they said they didn’t do it, that would be pretty conclusive. The worst possible conclusion may be the only one the evidence really supports. Are you willing to come to that conclusion, or will you jump to the conclusion that Murtha’s a traitor because the conclusion reflects so darkly on us?

We can’t fight their propaganda by simply denying anything that reflects negatively on us. It may seem like the easy way out, the one that saves face, but an ugly fact kept secret is more valuable to them than one we admit to and do something about.

The facts of our actions will set the floor for what lies will work. If we cover up atrocities instead of preventing them, we will set that floor uncomfortably high. Take care of the reality, and that will by accumulation of evidence and experience among the people we’re trying to help take care of the impact that their insurgent’s lies would have on us.

This has been my point all along. The best way to protect this army’s reputation is to give people less real world cause to doubt it.

Yes, we’ll fall short. That’s what apology is for. But if we build up a reputations for honesty, we’ll be able to tell folks what we did and did not do with more credibility lent to what we report.

The alternative is a never ending struggle to prop up a bright shining lie. We’ve had experience with that before. We should have learned our lesson.

“I am sick of him and the harm that he has done to our military.”

The harm Murtha has done to the military is nothing next to the harm the military has done to its own image by these actions.

Your post is analogous to a convict blaming the justice system for his incarceration, instead of his own actions. Grow up.

I love the smell of roasted chicken hawk in the morning.

Stephen

Don’t straw man me. I never call anyone a traitor (except maybe Benedict Arnold or Tokyo Rose. Jane Fonda could have been if she had the brains to understand what she was doing at the time,)

But it is certainly not useful to extrapolate. I saw Murtha on TV. I am sure he is sincere. But I think he has gone off the deep edge. We don’t generally do this sort of thing.

Recognize this. The possibility of an American masacre is new BECAUSE IT IS RARE. Murtha knows this. Some others are trying to make it seem not so rare. Americans should not do this. I know some people think it is political against Bush. Our enemies don’t see it that way. They just use it against America.

Google Kosovo,Clinton and Chinese Embassy and read what they said then.

SE-
The fog of war is the complexity of war and the real world defeating our ability to understand it all at once and get plans to go according to our wishes.It means that some idiot might send their column of soldiers into the field where you just ordered your artillery to fire, because he made the snap decision to make a charge.
It means that sometimes well-meaning people will end up doing things that turn out to be stupid or disastrous, simply for the lack of knowledge of anything and everything about the situation. That said, the fog can be rolled back with improved procedures, communications and training. It’s not some immovable barrier to knowing what the hell you’re doing.

It is not some haze of moral equivalency in which we can hide atrocities like this, where women and Children were part of the body count. Your point strikes me as bureaucratic in it’s quality. It ignores the ethical problems that a coverup poses in its broad sweep to condemn the breach of protocol.

As far as I know, Murtha has not named names of anybody he considers guilty. He has simply said that the evidence indicates a massacre has likely occured, and has been covered up. Under such conditions, allowing the cover-up to continue is likely to let the problem fester and embolden others to misbehave similarly to the soldiers. That is not a precedent it pays to set in a war like this.

I don’t care what the motive of the soldiers were. I care about what their actions were, and what effect they’ve had, both on reputations and battlefield realities. You presume that this is just anti-war B.S. the truth is more complex. I hate this kind of thing because it makes wars like the one we’re fighting more difficult to win.

SE

OJ got his day in court too. Innocent as hell he was. Will you be having him over for dinner? Why can’t conservatives admit mistakes, especially the military’s mistakes. Is denial what passes for patriotism where you come from? What happened to calling these men to task for bringing shame on the country they represent?? You know personal acountability.They asked for the privilege, responsibility and honor of defending our country.

Jack-
“You would think Murtha would be on our side”, you said, more or less. Whose side would he be on if he weren’t on ours? Perhaps that’s just a poor word choice on your part, but since you and others seem to be questioning whether he’s being loyal to those serving in Iraq, I’m inclined to believe it’s deliberate. The implication to me is clear, and my disagreement with the insinuation is not lacking in its clarity.

I think your biased towards thinking this is just a few rotten apples, rather than symptomatic of something more, even if it is rare. I think you want to believe that Murtha is just doing this for some political or misguided sentimental reason, instead of making and informed competent decision on the matter.

I think he knows what he’s speaking of.

Personally, I think denial just makes things worse. It’s usually just closing the barndoors after the cows have gotten out, which makes us look like con artists playing at being moral leaders.

I’d just as soon we played the role of virtuous hero in reality, instead of trying to create that role piecemeal from a bunch of bullshit spin. That means taking responsibility for mistakes and atrocities, and making public amends for them. That means punishing the people who did these things, so as to set the example that we are indeed a civilized nation.

To maintain an image without reality behind it is an exercise in mental torture. I recommend we put our brainpower to better use figuring out how to solve our problems in the real world.

Wow.

Not a single Conservative will answer the WHY question I posed.

What caused a large group of GIs to go berserk?

What can we do to prevent it?

Why won’t the Red Column face this?

Considering how desperately the Reds here are avoiding the PTSD issue, is Murtha right in bringing the stress the GIs face front and center?

Aldous

It is in the nature of war. Your question cannot be answered in the simple way you pose it. My father and uncles fought in Europe and the Pacific. We called that a good war. They told some interesting stories.

You are looking for machine like perfection in a human system that causes great stress. YOu can minimize such incidents - as we have - you cannot prevent all of them.

War is hell. That is why we should avoid it. But those who refuse to prepare for war and occasionally fight, end up dead or with bigger wars to fight later.

Life is not one of your video games. there are more variables.

I sense a lot of love on this thread. I think all you murthas should have a group hug and validate each other. then we could all touchy feely good again.

According to Murtha, there was an attempted cover-up. Do you support a cover-up?

“Murtha said high-level reports he received indicated that no one fired upon the Marines or that there was any military action against the U.S. forces after the initial explosion. Yet the deaths were not seriously investigated until March because an early probe was stifled within days of the incident, he said.

“I will not excuse murder, and this is what happened,” Murtha said. “This investigation should have been over two or three weeks afterward and it should have been made public and people should have been held responsible for it.” “

John Murtha, D-Pa., a former Marine, stated earlier this month that he was told by Corps officials that the death toll in the Haditha attack was far worse than originally reported by the U.S. military and mainstream media.

He also said that the U.S. troops killed those civilians “in cold blood.”

This statement by any US citizen, much less an official and a previous military person is despicable! How could one that loves this country turn his back on our military at a time of war. I am sure he would say he is not turning his back, then the press and statements he made could only be for his hopeful political gain! Whether what happened is fact or not, it was not his place to charge the Marines and try them in the press. Murtha was not there and cannot possibly know what really happened or why. Why wasn’t he as outraged when the so called insurgent’s were beheading innocent people in front of cameras? Having been in the military himself he is aware that many things have been and are done by military personal of various countries that their countrymen would not be proud of, and will bring shame upon them creating a burden they must bare forever.

This is reality folks. It has been going on forever during wars, in peace times and in our own country by our own citizens, just as it goes on in other countries. Is it considered acceptable, not by me, not by most people who are humane and moral, but it has and does happen. The difference is, we allow freedom of press and the media will print anything no matter how damaging it may be to people or it’s country in order to sell, obtain viewers, and often to reflect their own personal feelings. World wide coverage in minutes..showing how we Americans are disgusted with our own leaders and military. Soon we could be viewed as oppressed county ruled by tyrants.

I think it is shameful the way politicians throw dirt and slander each other. It is even more shameful when politicians slander and condemn their own country, it’s leaders and their military all in hopes of getting elected and gaining notoriety.

I am angry and sadden by such remarks and people as Murtha. Ask any man or woman serving in Iraq or Afganistan and you will find they are proud, they feel they are doing the right thing for fellow human beings. Remember they were not drafted they volunteered, they are not avoiding prison and are educated, and to humiliate and further put our military at risk like Murtha has is horrible!
I agree with you Sicilian Eagle, only he is worse than a jerk and I hope there are enough angry people out here and in our country that will see through his charade and it will bring his polical career future to an end with the people’s vote.

037

Interesting you mention OJ.That tape is often viewed in law schools as a lesson on what NOT to to do while prosecuting a homicide.

Getting back to Murtha…This isn’t an anti-war thing,nor should it be used as one.Had Dick Cheney said what Murtha said,I’d be all over him too.

Murtha doesn’t realize the fallout his words have.Several months back his words empowered the insurrency.

Today they will do the same.

At this point I agree with Stephen…we have to do a thorough investigation and punish those responsible if cupable and then fix the problem.

Professionial military men aren’t cold blooded killers.They are heros.They defend this nation.If guilty,these peoplewho did murder are an abberation and that’s it.

Can we agree that there may have been a better way for Murtha to act?Like thru channels first,for instance?

Jack, said it right: “It is in the nature of war” as horrible as it may be. This is reality.

Eagle, I agree: “In the American Revolution,The American Civil War,The Spanish American war,WWI,WWII,Korea,Vietnam,the Gulf war,I am sure atrocities were committed by our forces somewhere.Nobody fights by the Marquis di Queensbury rules in war,and the human spirit,when faced with shocking and tumultous events reacts in many many ways.”

Eagle,

Start your post by calling a decorated veteran a jerk. Classy, real classy. And it takes one to know one, Eagle.

Posted by: ElliottBay at May 28, 2006 12:09 PM

OK I’m a decorated veteran and I’m calling Murtha a jerk. Of course there ain’t but one metal that has any real value. And I don’t have it and don’t want it.
Anyway the only thing this guy is doing is trying to bring discredit on the Military and this country. And with him being an elected official that makes the matter even worse.
These marines deserve the same right of presumption of innocents as anyone else. And all Murtha is usurping that right.
If accusation alone was grounds to convict then all of would be in jail. Fortunately we have a system of law that requires that a person be found guilty, by a preponderance of the evidence, beyond ALL reasonable doubt. This is why if I was sitting on the juries that heard the Wayne Williams, and OJ Simpson, I would have had to vote not guilty, even though I personally believe both are guilty.
I find it interesting that the only folks that the Democrats think are innocent and have the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty are themselves.

Sic,
You missed my point entirely. I know you only want to discuss part of what Murtha said, but you really shouldn’t just pick and choose one or two lines from an article, taken somewhat out of context, and not be prepared to discuss the actually focus of the entire article.

I don’t believe there would be any investigations going on if Murtha hadn’t open his mouth. I had never heard of the incident prior to Murtha’s comments. I can’t help but wonder why I didn’t hear anything until AFTER MURTHA SPOKE.

I may not like what appears to have happened, but I am not a judge, or on the jury.I may even believe that Murtha opened his mouth and said some stupid things. I doubt he has done near the damage to the US cause in Iraq as the Marines envoled MAY have done.
I DO AGREE THAT SOMEONE had to say something to get some action.

S.E. Jack Murtha did not break this story. It was on one of the cable news stations several days ago. The story I saw said that the incident happened pretty much the way it was reported today. The story also said that while there was a squad of marines, only two allegedly did the killings. After the incident supposedly happened in Nov., it was covered up. The story also said that a nco and 1 or 2 others were being investigated for the alleged crime and 3 officers were being investigated for the alleged coverup.

Some think this is very shocking, find it hard to believe. and want swift justice. But, this kind of thing happens often in combat situations, thats why they call it war. Sometimes incidents like this are hidden, covered up or ignored. In these days it is getting harder to hide insidents like this when they occur.

Others seem to think this is new news and how dare Murtha critize our troops in a time of war,especially on Memorial day. And, what gives hime the right to reveal this to the Iraqis and the insurgents when we are in a war. The truth is, that the Iraq people have known this for quite a while now. And, they know of other incidents, some we know about and some we don’t, some that are true and some that are not true. So who do we blame for this, the troops, all of us, none of us, or the messenger may be. How about The Buck Stops Here.

Everything still keeps coming down to not enough troops to get the job done. The troops are over worked and over streached. Many are on second or third tours. animosity between the troops and the Iraqis is continuing to grow. People and our troops are continuing to die. While by far most of the deaths are being perpatrated by the insurgents of each faction, many Iraqis can’t help but think that none of this might be happening if we weren’t there.

Murtha’s service doesn’t make him immune from criticism. He’s a fool and makes stupid political statements that are DANGEROUS to the US. It’s not just recently either.

He is the one that convinced Clinton to cut and run from Somalia. That retreat emboldened Bin Laden and the other islamofascists by displaying that we would not stand up to them when we have military casualties.

Thanks Bill Clinton and John Murtha, for nothing. You are as pathtetic as Jimmy Carter in his inactions over the takeover of a US embassy and kidnapping our diplomats for 444 days.

That is way the vast majority of Americans will never trust the Dems with the security of our country. Too many Murthas, Carters, and Clintons with supporters like Michael Moore, MoveOn.org, and the rest of the looney left.

Yea those damn,democrats,could’nt even save us if we went to war, like I dont know FDR?
And let us not forget that it was Reagan who was so busy making deals with the Iranian terrorists who held our people,they had no incentive to deal with Pres. Carter. I love a foreign policy that includes selling drugs to americans to pay for arms. Good thinking Republicans.
And for domestic policy there is always the very popular Whip Inflation Now of Jerry Ford,That went up like a lead balloon.
Yeah, I sure am glad for the terrific leadership the republicans have shown over the years. Maybe if we are lucky we can get some future Republican President to allow the British to impress American seaman.

WAR:

I remember the shock at Abu Ghraib—those graphic pictures that made their way into the media. Remember the Cons response? Rush said it was no more than “hazing.” Others (in Congress, no less) even suggested that it was deserved by these “enemy combatants” and that we should have no sympathy for them.

Now on this board many of you Cons are writing that it’s an inevitability of the “fog of war;” that the killing of women and children is a reality in a war situation that we have to suck it in and come to grips with.

Well, y’all may be right. When we learn to kill we learn to dehumanize our enemy. It strikes me that many people commenting here seem to value American lives more than Iraqi lives. If that’s the case for you, then you have learned to dehumanize them, too. To kill someone, or torture them, you have to believe that they are not as human as your mother, brother, or best friend. And this happens time and time again in wars throughout history.

Which is why we have to be especially careful to avoid them unless there are no other options. Personally, I am filled with sorrow to see our young men and women sent into these situations borne of falsehood and deceit.

This memorial day, I’m going to keep a vigil for the lost American soul that is no longer a beacon of moral high ground in the world, but instead a country with people asked to accept a mass killing of civilians as “reality” and to regard torture as sometimes acceptable.

Murtha has undoubtedly seen the results of war, and has the courage and patriotism to try to save what we have left of our honor. We will continue to see more reports like these, and coverups, until enough Jack Murthas come forward.

Sic, It seems to me that kch and jblym are a bit off track. What do you think?

SE; I think you are off base in your critism of Rep. Murtha for a couple of reasons.

First, the story was already making news once it was reported that Time was going to publish the story in its current issue. I think I first heard about it on Thursday on CNN. Murtha saw a copy in the waiting room at ABC while waiting to go on this morning’s show. So, he didn’t break the news; it was out already.

If I was George Stephanopoulas and I wanted to get a response to this breaking story on my show, the first person I would call would be Jack Murtha because of his track record for being candid on his views about the war. Murtha has been as consistant in his opposition to the war as he has been in his unwavering support for the troops fighting it.

This story was going to be on the show regardless of whether Murtha appeared or not.

Second; you said he should have waited until the investigation was completed before speaking out. But, for all intents and purposes, the investigation WAS over until Time’s information (the video) prompted a further look into the facts of the case.

It’s interesting that you used the Al-Jazera story as a reference. They had access to the same videos as Time, yet their story didn’t come out until it had been all over the news here.

Cong. Murtha made his declarations in behalf of political expediency. He just as well could and should have waited for the complete report to be released and then make an ass out of himself.
As for Time magazine, can one even believe the page numbers in Time?

David -
If you were shocked by the pictures of Abu Ghraib you are either very young or choose not to face reality. Yes it is better not to go to war unless there is no other way and it is truly warranted, but the fact is, there have been wars and will continue to be wars. Greed and Power will see to this as well as some religious fanatics. And it may be true that when the military of any nation is taught to kill, that after awhile some may dehumanize their enemy, but if this were a fact, we would not have so many people stressed and losing control. And we would not have so many coming home with post traumatic stress syndrome as it is called.

We have always been a country of Honor, defending and helping those in need, and we will continue to stay that way as long as we are all proud Americans and stand by our Country, our Constitution, its Military, our elected leaders and remain One Nation Under God.

It is one thing to disagree among ourselves, (using the proper procedures and channels) about things that have happened or may happen, but to degrade our selves and condemn our military, putting it out there before the world like this was, only gives the impression to others that our country is weak, untruthful, dishonorable and divided.

Murtha’s statements to the press and media were abomination of our country and it military. We must stand United or we will fall.

Why does Murtha automatically believe the worst about our military? He never waits until all the facts are in, just brands them murderers of innocent women and children before the entire world as soon as the cameras begin to roll. Wake up, Mr. Murtha, and remember WHO the enemy is! It is NOT the Military of the United States, or have you truly forgotten that minor detail? For heaven’s sake, give these young Marines their chance to tell their side of the event, and prove or disprove their innocence, but stop this screaming their guilt before they have had a trial!

DavidL,

Compared to what the insurgents are doing, Abu Graib was hazing. The main complaint of Muslims was that the inmates there were “humiliated.” If you find those pictures shocking, I suggest you look up some of the videos of Westerners having thier heads cut off by the insurgents.

What makes scandals like Abu Graib and this alleged massacre so newsworthy is that they are the EXCEPTION. Insurgents regularly kill more Iraqi civilians than this using suicide bombers. In thier case, brutality is the NORM. Furthermore, they plan to murder civilians. These Marines overreacted in a brutal fashion, but did not go to Haditha looking to kill civilians.

The insurgent forces we are fighting are brutal murderers who openly trumpet massacring civilians. In order to seperate ourselves from them, we need to fully investigate these accusations. If they are proven, those responsible should be punished to the maximum extent of the law, to include the death penalty.

One note on this war being founded in deceit. It was, but it was the deceit of Saddam. Last month, Stars and Stripes ran a short story discussing the state of WMDs in Iraq. It showed that Saddam did indeed order them destroyed, starting about a month before the invasion began. They were destroyed by the time we moved, and we intercepted the orders from Saddam to destroy them, but based on 12 years of his lies, regarded this as deliberate misinformation on his part to try and stop us from attacking.

The point of all this is that Bush was right about Iraq having WMDs, at least until a week or two before the war kicked off. Saddam lied to the U.N. for 12 years and every charge Bush made against him was true. Had Saddam simply let the inspectors witness these weapons being destroyed, this wouldn’t have happened. Another interesting point. The realistic threat of an American invasion did in a few months what 12 years of sanctions and empty threats could not do: forced Saddam to destroy his WMDs.

As for Murtha, being a veteran does not automatically make one immune to criticism, as John Kerry found out to his sorrow. I don’t always agree with him, but if people actually listened to what he had to say, he’s actually usually right. He didn’t say we should cut and run, he said that the conflict in Iraq was turning into a civil war and our presence isn’t helping. He didn’t say these Marines are guilty, he said that there should be an investigation to determine not only what happened but if there was a cover up. We owe it to the murdered Iraqis, as well as ourselves, to find out and prosecute those responsible. Everyone knows the insurgents kill innocent people. What they need to know is that America is serious when we say we don’t and that those who do will be punished.

Ron Brown,

“I find it interesting that the only folks that the Democrats think are innocent and have the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty are themselves.”

Ron you forgot about anyone who commits atrocities from other countries and anyone the ACLU will defend.

1LT B -
Well put.

Posted by: 1LT B at May 29, 2006 12:43 AM

1LT B, I think you’re 100% on the mark except for the two paragraphs about the WMDs. But that’s for another post…

Great perspective on the troops and Rep. Murtha.

jblym

Well,I am happy that me post provoked zeal on your part!

Please answer this question:Is it correct that a sitting congressman disclose to the world the fact that an alleged atrocity occured and that marines were guilty of doing it PRIOR to an investigation and a court proceeding?
Posted by: sicilianeagle at May 28, 2006 02:23 PM

Eagle, it may be that the details of this incident are sub judice, nevertherless, what is undisputed is that there was an attack on the Marines. In the aftermath of that, civilians were killed in their homes, and students were taken from a taxi and gunned down. It is also known, (globally) that the Marines issued reports of what happened which were totally at variance with the evidence on the ground and that of eye witnesses. There is a powerfully stong prima facie case to answer here, and, it seems to me, whereas the guilt of individual marines has yet to be established, the facts of this appaling massacre are well established.

As for phx calling for symbolic sentences, I have to strongly disagree. In the event that culpability for murder is proved, there is a moral obligation to show that those who have committed atrocities are not above the law, and will suffer the appropriate penalties if convicted. Those soldiers who committed these acts, have not only disgraced and betrayed the country they serve, they have also betrayed their comrades in arms, making their mission even more dangerous and potentially more futile.

Dear Watchblog manager:

I did discuss the content. The content does lack the common sense of evaluating a situation in reality and IS up to the usual standards of invective in several of his posts. I don’t know SE and made no comment on him personally. Removing a line and characterizing it as personal attack is, well, just a bizarre interpretation of Watchblog rules. Much worse things have been said about my comments. Interesting interpretation. Very telling. Please explain further this interpretation, if you possibly can.

All

I wasnt to compliment each and every one of you.

For 98 posts now,a very emotional topic has been discussed (for the most part) with dignity and intelligence.

I think that is why Watchblog was founded.

I applaud each and every one of you.

Paul
I am sure that no whitewash will happen.And in the event that an atrocity was committed,severe punishments will be metted out,absent mitigation.

I have every confidence in the military investigators and the Military Court System to accomplish this end.

Murtha was just throwing more red meat to the rabidly anti-war, anti-American copperheads here in this country. Just like he has done many times before. Political pandering. When is the guy up for re-election?

“War is hell. That is why we should avoid it. But those who refuse to prepare for war and occasionally fight, end up dead or with bigger wars to fight later.”

This argument works for the terrorists as well as for us. The true dividing line is how we act in these situation vs the terrorists. (Remember, they declared a jihad - holy war - against us long before they attacked on 9/11.) Why should we consider their actions so horrible and yet want to wait until the trial is over to discuss what our soldiers have done? None of the terrorists have had their day in court either.

Or does the flag a person flies decide what is moral and right and what isn’t? If this is the case, then are the anti-American sentiments correct?

Fact 1: This atrocity occurred and was carried out by US soldiers. That is known, had been proven and has been acknowledged publicly.

Fact 2: Innocent until proven guilty applies to individuals - not to a particular crime scene or crime. I have not seen Murtha or anyone else refer to or publicly “convict” any individual soldier.

Murtha is a decorated war hero - who here attacking him has any military experience, much less a comparable heroic past? A lot here sounds like the crowing of chicken-hawks.

Have you ever meet a Marine? Would you classify them as a life-long brotherhood? Not exactly the kind of person who would turn on his fellow soldiers for “political” gain. I would expect those who say as much offer up proof to avoid being seen as so anti-American.

I don’t think many people on here have been capable of staying on topic.

I believe the topic started out as a outrage regrading the fact that a decorated war hero would take it upon himself to act as judge and jury on an action that is still under investigation.

The points against Murtha’s verbosity are the fact that he is clearly damaging our efforts in Iraq and that he has ruined the lives of a few young marines.

The points for Murtha’s outbursts are that he re-energized an investigation that for all appearances had “died”.

My questions are:

1. Could Murtha have done this without doing so much damage to our military? For instance, requested that they re-open the investigation based on stories he had heard?

2. Isn’t EVERYONE innocent until proven guilty? My biggest problem with Murtha isn’t that he is bringing this to light. It’s that he seems to be making statements of fact for his adoring public (i.e., every card-carrying anti-war liberal).

My OPINION - Murtha has lost his mind. Honestly, I believe something happened to him. He doesn’t seem to be filled with logical thought to me, but again, that is JMHO.

If this is true, I don’t think we have “death squads”, as suggested by 1LT. We might have scared soldiers that are sick and tired of watching the best friends get blown to pieces before their very eyes. Their sick of the jihadists hiding behind churchers, mosques, families, schools, daycares, etc. When the terrorists hide in residences with children after blowing up a soldier, they are in my opinion murdering the innocent (or not) civilians they are using as a shield. Can you imagine an American soldier doing that? I can’t. I really can’t.

Wow, SE. What is it with Republicans hating our soldiers?

Aldous is right. It’s Murtha’s job to make sure this doesn’t get covered up. It’s the coverup that makes America look bad, not the actions of a few soldiers dealing with the pressures of successive back-to-back tours in Iraq fighting an insurgency where the enemy blends in with the civilians.

SE, you can try to argue that the incident never took place, but you’re wrong to make a personal attack on Murtha for making sure the world knows we take these problems seriously and we will deal with them justly, promptly and transparently.

BTW, why aren’t the young Republicans mobbing recruiting stations to help out in Iraq? It’d sure help if the young Republicans could relieve these guys and make sure they’re not doing back-to-back deployments in Iraq for the next ten years.

Or at least stop trying to cut their hazardous duty pay.

American Pundit…

Can any of you figure out a different way to set up your diatribe? Bringing to light the fact that Murtha is hurting our soldiers in a very direct and obvious way does not make us had soldiers. There are some really bad soldiers out there, but knowing that doesn’t mean that we are “hating our soldiers”. That is a ridiculous argument. I suppose it is your way of getting back at the same people that say YOU hate our soldiers because you don’t support the action in Iraq. Both are silly. But two wrongs don’t make a right.

Again with the “presumption of innocence” nonsense. That applies to putting someone in jail, not talking about them.

If you guys really take this seriously, you should never say that Ted Kennedy did anything appropriate in Chappaquiddick, because he was never convicted of a crime. You can’t talk about Kerry shooting someone in the back, because he was never court-martialed. You can’t say that Bill Clinton committed perjury, because he was never charged with perjury, much less convicted. You can’t say anything about Al Gore’s fundraising. Hell, you can’t say that OJ was guilty, because the jury said he was innocent…

Well, you get the idea. If you really want to use “innocent until proven guilty” as a rule for discussion, then you are really going to have to radically change how you talk about the Democrats you dislike.

Why does everyone think that because of Murtha that this iccident was known? Does anyone here think that the rumors have not been growing wild in Iraq since the day this occured? The only people who Murtha’s comments informed were Americans…

Still no discussion from the people attacking Murtha as to how to deal with these problems occuring and how to prevent future atrocities? Ignoring them? Don’t think that’ll work. No one cured cancer by taking a couple of asprin.

Bobbie-
Everything we cover up serves to do two things to harm our reputation. The first thing is that these cover-ups give impunity to those who misbehave, who then proceed to commit the same kind of B.S. again. The second thing this does is that it sets up nasty surprises that reflect worse on us than the incident would if we immediately dealt with these things.

You guys rationalize it with two arguments: These Things Happen, and We’re Better Than The Enemy. Both arguments have at their foundations a kind of moral cowardice. It’s not my fault, there’s a war going on, and besides, our enemies do worse.

Our opponents in WWII were much more vicious and heartless than us. Did we sink to their level in the treatment of civilians and prisoners? No. We surpassed them, choosing to act deliberately in a more civilized manner. When we won the war, we had not only defeated the enemy, we had also impressed them with our humanity, and that made a difference in what happened afterwards.

As for Political careers, I think your comments would be valid if his district wasn’t such a conservative, hawkish one. As it is, he’s taking a risk, and that figures against this being a politically calculated move. I mean, who would he be trying to impress?

KCH-
Cut and run from Somalia? We stayed there six more months, then handed it to the UN, who were the ones who were supposed to be handling it in the first place.

Moreover, ours was a humanitarian mission. Exactly how would whatever campaign of reprisal you could imagine work towards accomplishing that mission? As Richard Clarke put it, we would have had to flatten Mogadishu to impress Bin Laden, and what point would there have been to doing that, given our mission there?

As for the Embassy takeover, Carter did send in troops to help our people out. Unfortunately, an accident with the choppers knocked that plan out of commission. As for the length, it might have been shorter if people working for Reagan had not bargained with the Iranians to keep the people there until after the elections.

As for trusting the Dems with the security of our nation, they may very well end up doing that, after all the Republicans have done for them!

tomh-
What political expedience? Do you know what kind of district he’s running in? It’s not Berkeley, let me tell you. As for Time magazine, what were the facts they got wrong? At least start with how they got the page numbers wrong.

1LT B-
I don’t want to compare my behavior to theirs before figuring out what’s right and wrong. I want to be the good guy without having to consult the horror stories of what they’ve done to figure out where the limits of decent behavior are for me.

If you really think about it, the “We’re no worse than them” thinking is likely what made bloody beasts of these insurgents and terrorists in the first place. I think we do better when we watch our own selves. Let the terrorists and insurgents be the bastards they are. We’ll do things our way, and still beat them.

The thing we have to understand here is that there is clear evidence that many of these people were not combatants, did not pose a threat to the soldiers, and that Marines at the scene and higher in the chain of command deliberately lied about this, presenting the civilian casualties as a result of the IED that killed the marine.

If we rationalize this sort of behavior, we encourage it, and if we encourage atrocities, we do our soldiers a disservice, and we confirm our enemies worst propaganda. If we a good reputation in terms of our image, we have to have good behavior in fact, or it doesn’t work.

Fix the problems, not the coverage.

Bruce-
Just by the facts alone, this is ugly. The deaths of the civilians were deliberately covered up as the result of a IED explosion. There is a great deal of evidence to suggest that the people were not presenting any real threat to the soldiers. Out of all the people killed, only one body was found with a weapon.

Murtha is not the only one coming out with questions about this. Jack Warner, a Republican is on this as is another GOP rep named Cline. As for what Murtha has to gain by doing this, it’s not much. His district is conservative, patriotic and hawkish. He has little to gain from slandering soldiers. This is a GOP canard meant to score points for their elections efforts, while distracting from the fact that this incident demonstrates that our Army is literally snapping under the pressures of this war. Long deployments like those under Bush’s stop-loss program put our soldiers in a psychological pressure cooker. Leave them in long enough, and incidents like this will take place.

We shouldn’t be shooting the messenger here. The people whose actions are reflecting negatively on our country and our armed forces are the ones who went about massacreing civilians. Why are we not blaming the ones who committed these crimes and who covered them up for the shame we’re facing now? Why are we not blaming the folks who made this war such a desperate situation? Why is some elderly, well-respected Representative from Swing-Voter territory suddenly being treated like a pot-smoking peacenik, just for discussing a story that was already coming out?

Sort that out for yourself, but consider the facts before coming to your opinion.

Hey Murtha, Kerry, Dean, etc: Please stop already with all the support. You’re killing us out here.

Sincerely,

The Troops

Hey troops! Stop with the death-stuff already! You’re embarrasing us. How can I make Iraq look like a good thing if you guys keep on killing and dying?!

W. Bush

Could someone tell me who Murtha has publicly convicted? Names please…

Murtha has been against this military action for some time now. To pass judgement before an investigation is completed is absolutely wrong and un-American. Murtha knows that if the Marines were wrong, punishment will follow, but right now it plays into exactly what he wants—bad PR for Bush and the war in general.

Given the choice of believing a professional politician who happened to be an ex-Marine or a group of active-duty Jarheads, I’d opt for the latter every time. I’m also just a bit suspicious of the glee with which the left has pounced on this story. There is definitely an element in this country that longs to recreate what they regard as the glory days of Viet Nam. Another Mai Lai! Perfect! It means regaining control of Congress in November.

Just from the aspect of the law of probability: is it more likely that a unit of U.S. Marines - arguably the most highly-trained and tightly disciplined group in our military - would run amok and slaughter children in response to an attack, or that bloodthirsty jihadists would manufacture a massacre in order to win in the American press what they cannot accomplish on the ground? Shades of Viet Nam again. The jihadists cannot possibly defeat the U.S. military. But the U.S. press and venal American politicians can - they did it in Viet Nam and consider the accomplishment their proudest moment.

Unless and until a court martial supplies proof beyond a reasonable doubt that these Marines are quilty, I will assume a slander campaign waged by the “usual suspects”.

I’m also just a bit suspicious of the glee with which the left has pounced on this story.

Speaking of slander, where is your evidence of “glee”?

Tom S - livsafe -

You’re the only ones I see trying to turn this into a political discussion… afraid it might hurt your precious leader? Do you think Murtha made all this up? Do you think this is better left in the dark - maybe ignore it and it’ll go away?

Please show me where Murtha has attacked or defamed any soldier. 24 innocent civilians were murdered - that has been proven. Is a flag enough to separate Americans from terrorists, or should we try to act differently as well?

Bruce

Excellent summation of my article.You hit the nail on the head.Completely on point.

AP

You,however, musta put the nail IN your head when you make downright humorous statements like Republicans hating the military.

In the last election,they pretty much voted the president’s way,no?

This post was about going public preemptively.

Spin it all you want,but that was the point I was making.

Glad to see you’ve recovered from last week’s beating on the other side though.

Woody Mena

Ted Kennedy?The guy who got thrown out of Harvard for cheating?That guy?The “liberal lion” who doesn’t want a wind mill that would power the Cape because it would ruin his view?That guy?

By the way,he pleaded guilty to leaving the scene of an accident.

Clinton,by the way,lied during a deposition.His licence was suspended.

Get the facts straight.

Next you’ll be telling me that Phelps was a Republician and the Rove got indicted last week.

You guys better huddle up.

Then again,you guys don’t seem to let the facts get in the way in order for you to prove a point,right?

Tony
The military has Rules of Engagement.

Stephen
Answer the question:Should Murtha have gone publich PRIOR TO the investigation being completed?

Focus.

“You,however, musta put the nail IN your head when you make downright humorous statements like Republicans hating the military.

In the last election,they pretty much voted the president’s way,no?”

Are you saying that because they voted the President’s way, that they obviously can not be against the military? That’s pretty weak.

“This post was about going public preemptively