A different kind of immigration reform

This isn’t a fairytale. Magical sugar plums aren’t falling from the trees and soft, cuddly animals aren’t prancing through the woods reciting aged nursery rhymes with Goldie Lox.

Rather, this is reality, and no matter how enticing the gleefully arranged sugar-coated gum drops of Edward Kennedy and Dianne Feinstein appear, keep in mind that they are merely disillusioned ploys to garner the Hispanic demographic in the upcoming midterm election.

The fact of the matter is that the immigration debate is an unsightly one, digging its insidious thorns into all reaches of social life, inciting passionate emotions and stretching the malleable moral fiber of this country—and Congressmen don’t like making unsightly legislation—especially during an election year—even if it may be the proper legislation. So, since I’m not running for public office in 2006, I’ll take the hard stance that many politicians are too afraid to take. I’ll propose the unsightly legislation.

As the deafening emotions encasing the immigration debate dwindle, but still linger as an ever-persistent sputter, and Congressional lawmakers in the House and Senate tidy up their respective versions of the fallout of those tightly guarded emotions, America is inching closer to a great debate between the House and Senate over immigration, with the most tantalizing, white-hot issue being: amnesty, or more amnesty?

And there seems to be no alternative. The choice is almost exclusively between a recently passed House bill that takes a relatively tough stance on illegal immigrants, with some provisions forcing illegal aliens to transfer back to their home country before reapplying for citizenship, and a pending Senate bill that reflects a more quasi-liberal, tolerant approach to handling the country’s current illegal aliens—a more forgive and forget ideal.

There are overt fundamental flaws in both bills. The House bill, a stringent and unforgiving piece of legislation, is laudable in theory, but infeasible in practice because it provides no incentive for illegal immigrants to turn themselves in to authorities. What motivation do illegal aliens have to rise from their undetectable state of tax evasion and government fraud when they can simply slip by undetected, living a sheltered, serene life, free of governmental quagmires and complexities?

Conversely, the Senate bill, a more lenient bill, is too magnanimous, considering these illegal aliens broke the law. But, perhaps more importantly, the bill encourages future illegal immigration by offering a relatively painless path to citizenship—as oppose to the House bill, which promises a droning paperwork process and a painful sting to the wallet.

Furthermore, both bills require a degree of trust, and the broken rhetoric of illegal immigrants is usually not the most reliable source. Both the House and Senate bills would require illegal aliens to submit information proving how many years they’ve resided in America, soaking up the government’s resources and conniving their way out of taxes and social accountability, so the government can determine if the illegal needs to be temporarily deported. The fatal flaw: since illegal immigrants can acquire phony social security numbers, and with identity theft running rampant, forging dates on paperwork is child’s play in today’s technological era—and the government is always a step behind technology.

With both tattered pieces of legislation wallowing in their frayed pool of infeasibility, and while Congress seems content with their lethargically jaded fruition, the fundamental question of immigration reform remains unscathed by Congress’ meek efforts.

The following is my attempt to dig past the layers of ineptness and divulge a valid, plausible solution to the immigration problem.

As much as I would love to detain every illegal alien, stick them on a bus, and ship them back to their motherland, I understand that the situation is much more complex and that deporting the illegal transgressors will only complicate this already exasperating quandary. However, the afore mentioned sugar-coated rhetoric of Kennedy and the rest of the Democratic party, along with much of the Republican party—this ploy of “earned citizenship”—is a gross injustice to all the law-abiding immigrants waiting patiently in line, and an unequivocal disregard for America’s legal system.

So, without forcibly deporting the illegal aliens, but also without granting amnesty, my plan is to abolish all minimum wage and labor laws regarding undocumented/illegal workers.

The plan, which attacks the cause of the problem, rather than the effect, would work threefold: first, it encourages current illegal aliens to reconsider their state of affairs—forcing them to endure inhumane working conditions and even more repugnantly inferior wages—enticing at least some to leave, but hopefully in sporadic amounts so the economy will maintain its buoyancy and won’t recede. Secondly, for the same reason it encourages current illegal immigrants to leave, the plan acts as a disincentive, discouraging future criminals from crossing the border, acting as a figurative wall of apprehension and malevolence, looming dauntingly over the heads of the demoralized transgressor, instilling a disheartening sense of trepidation and anxiety. Lastly, the plan would bolster the bottom line of the floundering small business and farming industries that depend on illegal labor to break even, especially in light of the recent billion dollar conglomerate boom.

Now, realistically speaking, a Congressman would see his party gasp in horror if this type of legislation was ever proposed, not because it isn’t cost effective and logical, but because of sinister partisan passions that often blur reality and hinder practical legislation, culminating in an improbable monstrosity that is neither effective nor logical. Especially during election years, as afore mentioned, national parties tend to be as hands off and laissez-faire as possible, for fear of upsetting a potential demographic.

In this case, the potential demographic is Hispanic, both legal and illegal. And with approximately twelve million illegal Hispanics and countless more legal Hispanics currently in America, the party that tends to their needs and butters them up the most will inevitably win their cherished vote, while the other party will be left at a distinct and possibly insurmountable disadvantage.

It’s sad, but it’s reality.

The second prong of the immigration debate, border security, is slightly less complicated. Most Americans agree that stringent border security is a necessary measure and a significant amount support the construction of a wall, both material and virtual, to hamper and mitigate the flow of illegal immigration.

President Bush has been advocating his plan for illegal immigration more aggressively recently, essentially copyrighting the phrase “comprehensive” immigration reform. His plan involves a guest worker program, a middle ground between House and Senate bills regarding amnesty, and plans for a prodigious wall and the expansion of America’s border patrol division. Bush believes that all three components, in the same bill, are needed to adequately address the immigration issue.

However, history dictates that the more “comprehensive” a bill becomes, the less likely it is to pass as law. If Bush did his research, he’d find that Henry “The Great Compromiser” Clay’s Compromise of 1850 failed in Congress as a “comprehensive” piece of legislation. But, when Clay separated each component into separate bills, most of the original pieces passed into law.

What Bush needs to understand is that, first and foremost, defending America’s porous borders is paramount, and dealing with the current illegal aliens is a less dire problem. Thus, Bush should exclusively champion border security, enacting the proper measures to carry out that plan, and then worry about the illegal immigrants here today.

No matter what Congressional leaders advocate, there’s no instantaneous solution to the immigration problem. There’s no glorious explanation hiding serenely for the government to uncover, and there’s no fairytale ending in the foreseeable future.

Some believe my immigration reform plan is too harsh—a callous, compassionless plan that would culminate in the needless torment of millions of people. But keep in mind: there’s no pretty solution to this issue, no magic switch that will make it all go away.

Remember, this is real life, not fairytale.

Posted by Alex Fitzsimmons at May 24, 2006 7:33 PM
Comments
Comment #151046

“But keep in mind: there’s no pretty solution to this issue, no magic switch that will make it all go away.”

How many issues do we face like this? How many times have we seen courage trump political manuvering? How many representatives are going to spend thier political capital on subtlies and long term considerations?

Intelligence, cooperation, collaboration rarely have won elections. I think it’s time to change this.

Posted by: tony at May 24, 2006 7:48 PM
Comment #151047

“unequivocal disregard for America’s legal system” is a hallmark of the Bush administration. Maybe we should let immigrants issue a “signing statement” saying that they may or may not consider themselves subject to the rule of law.

Posted by: David S at May 24, 2006 7:50 PM
Comment #151049

House Republicans have it right. Border Security FIRST! Halt the illegal immigration by 80 to 90% first, then the rest of the illegal immigration problems can be dealt with in a comprehensive fasion. But, to try to deal with illegal immigrants without stemming the flow of a million a year making it across, is pure folly.

Posted by: David R. Remer at May 24, 2006 7:54 PM
Comment #151064

it has been stated on several threads that if it were not for illegal aliens coming to our country to do the jobs Americans won’t do we might have to pay as much as $5 a head for lettuce. $7 a loaf for bread and a simple bologna sandwich might cost as much as $7.

When you look at the production hours of illegal alien labor compared to hours in country, figure in benefits like medical, school, housing and food stamps, I submit that lettuce already cost much more than $5 a head, $7 for bread and you can be sure that the simple bologna sandwich cost us as tax payers much more than $7.

Just seems less when you do not realize what the real cost of illegal’s among us are really costing.

Posted by: lm at May 24, 2006 8:47 PM
Comment #151065

what is a working season for agricultural workers compared to season without work?

Posted by: lm at May 24, 2006 8:48 PM
Comment #151071

Alex,
Nicely written article, too bad immigration isn’t that important of an issue. Just a Republican ploy to revitalize its base.

Posted by: greenstuff at May 24, 2006 9:25 PM
Comment #151075

Greenstuff
Too bad you dont understand that the illegal problem is the biggest problem we have at this time. As to “a republican ploy to revitalize its base” thats a joke. If anything the republicans are about to lose whats left of their base when the congress passes any bill that is short of deportation. If the Reps want to go on with the middle to left faction of their party they will lose the conservatives not revitalize them.

Posted by: jc at May 24, 2006 9:43 PM
Comment #151079

Hey alex, great article, you really amasme me about hwo clear you display your ideas. I am totaly with you on this like I said in class.

Posted by: Chris at May 24, 2006 10:02 PM
Comment #151090

Despite the fear mongering of the fictional $5 head of lettuce, the problem Alex is that you help the politicians hide the real source of the problem. The subsidy of illegal businesses in the US who profiteer off the back of slave labor.

You argue about legislation that is the same shuffle that has gone on in the past. They’ll wring their hands about it, build a wall by contracting out illegal businesses that will profiteer from the new slaves of the 21st century, keeping the money for themselves and charging rates at or near what they’d charge with legal labor. Then in a few years, all will be forgotten again, The woefully inadequate wall won’t stem the flow and illegal businesses will rake in the dough. Then someone will decide it will make a good devisive political issue. Then we’ll hear the Immigration Shuffle one more time.

Goldie and the Lox she ate for breakfast while combing her golden locks of hair, go blythley about their lives thanking the politicians who take their backdoor deals from the illegal business leaders bythly unaware of the game.

Thank you for your service, Alex.

Thank goodness slavery has returned to the U.S. to help us along.

Posted by: gergle at May 24, 2006 10:51 PM
Comment #151094
Thank goodness slavery has returned to the U.S. to help us along.

Gergle:

Slavery? I see no slavery here sir. I only see criminals being punished for their transgressions against society. They broke our laws, and dont deserve any better, quite frankly.

Why should we protect the rights of people who arent even supposed to be in our country and are breaking the law of the land with their presence?

They have no legal right to be here so the government should not have to protect them.

The subsidy of illegal businesses in the US who profiteer off the back of slave labor.

Gergle:

In response to this statement, how do you propose we go about prosecuting businesses that hire illegals? Do we go door to door, infringing upon their right to privacy and force them to turn over all documentation, on the basis that they might be harboring an illegal?

Not only is that illegal but it is also not cost effective. We already cant keep tabs on businesses who hire illegals, and to expand the system to adequately fill that need would be incredibly time consuming and costly.

If you have a better suggestion, please, feel free to present it. But from what I can see, it not possible to adequately keep these businesses in check without dirsupting the free market and raising a lot of constitutional issues.

Posted by: Alex Fitzsimmons at May 24, 2006 11:05 PM
Comment #151098

when you figure earned income credit, no taxes at the end of the year, free medical for picker and family, hud housing, free food stamps, free breakfast and lunch at school with special teachers and books in spanish (which is a joke as they cannot read spanish any more than english),free medical with no deductible, no co pay $5 a head of lettuce is a deal.

anything short of deportation is not good for our country. carry your load or hit the road, pay your way or go away.

Posted by: lm at May 24, 2006 11:17 PM
Comment #151124

Alex Fitzsimmons:

Nice try protecting the GOPs Big Business Supporters.

Posted by: Aldous at May 25, 2006 2:05 AM
Comment #151136


Let me see if I have this correct. We build the wall to keep them out. Then we kill three birds with one stone. We will eliminate all minimum wages and labor laws for illegals. Basically, let them know that they will be working under the same conditions and the same pay that they would recieve in their own countries. I can see how this might encourage some of the illegals to go home and discourage others from coming here. But, how does this help the floundering small business and farm interests. I guess they get to work the illegals like dogs and pay them like slaves for a short period of time until they all decide to go home. Then what happens to the small business and farm interests.

The most effective least expensive method of steming the tide of illegal immigration is to enforce the laws against hiring illegals.

A friend of mine is a roofing contracter. Most of his work is in the Cincinnati area roofing new homes and condos. All of his workers are Americans. One of the home builders he works for, Fisher Homes, just got busted last week because most of their framers are illegals. One of the framing subcontracters said ” my labor cost for my five workers was $250 a week. Where am I going to find frammers who will work for
$50 a week.” My friend is loosing work and income but, Fisher Homes is loosing a whole lot more.

How about a web site where the names of employers who hire illegals can be posted.

Posted by: jlw at May 25, 2006 3:25 AM
Comment #151139

A majority of the Senate has gone completely mad, including those Rino Republicans that are part of that majority. They would give Social Security to criminals who used forged Social Security and other documents. Their whole Senate amnesty approach is an insult to all law-abiding Americans. If the choice is the Senate bill or no bill, then I say NO BILL. The President has ample authority now to secure our border, he should do so. It is time for the House to kill the Senate bill forthwith and they should also pass a resolution demanding that the President enforce the laws that are already on the books. If the president can send thousands of troops across the world to secure the borders of other countries, then he can darn well do it here. If necessary he should ask Congress to suspend or amend the law that restricts use of our armed forces in defending our nation from external invasion.

I voted for GW twice, and I am now quite disgusted by his failure to do his duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed.

Posted by: iGreg at May 25, 2006 3:58 AM
Comment #151140

Alex, there is already a law requiring filing an I-9 form. The rub lies in verification. A biometric card can be created and tied to a database administered by someone like VISA or Mastercard. That should please your little Republican heart.

This isn’t the program I would propose:
Data Base

Posted by: gergle at May 25, 2006 4:38 AM
Comment #151141

Regarding slavery,

What do you call it when you pay someone substantially less than the going wage, house them in colonias, and then denigrate their worth by saying no Americans will take the job?

I call it cunningly close to saying they had it worse in Africa, their own people sold them to us, and they need a master to take care of them anyway. The words may be different, the sentiment remains unchanged. Maybe you can be nice and call it Reconstruction.

Posted by: gergle at May 25, 2006 4:49 AM
Comment #151142

gergle,

I think you are nowhere near intellectually honest to say illegal immigrants have it ~as bad as slaves.

“What do you call it when you pay someone…” When you pay someone, and when they have CHOICE, they are not a slave. Plus free food, free healthcare, subsidized housing, free education, free legal help, free…

C’mon.

Can people please really do their best to be intellectually honest here, and everywhere (to others and to oneself?). I would say the Left is more guilty of this today, but regardless it is wrong every time, no matter who does it.

Let’s hold ourselves and our words to very high standards. This is a key mark of intelligence, civility, and being truly social.

…and I doubt much can be resolved here or anywhere when people are not honest.

Posted by: Brian at May 25, 2006 5:15 AM
Comment #151145

COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION REFORM:

Seems to me one aspect of immigration reform that is not being included in most any ‘Comprehensive’ debate / bill is to eliminate incentives illegals have to stay here.

‘Rounding up 12M people’ … this is a Red Herring. Were they ‘rounded up’ and put on busses to get up here?

No. They did it themselves, since they thought they thought the incentives to move outweighed the consequences.

The way to reduce the # of illegal immigrants here is to reduce their perceived benefits of coming and staying.

Insuring companies employ only those legally allowed to work here is one key part. Others would be to Reduce/Eliminate the free/subsidized: food, healthcare, housing, education, legal help, affirmative-action, etc. we offer illegal immigrants.

Let illegals see fit to return in their own way, in their own time, and on their own nickle, wherever possible — just as they came here. To me this makes sense.

If some feel oblidged to feed, house, clothe, medicate, etc. non-Americans, then they can / should donate to charities (American or international) to do so (as I do somewhat). And Bless your Good Hearts for doing so.

But please Think Global, Act Local first — give much of your own wealth away to a cause before trying to extract this from others’ pockets.

…and do we really want as new permanent citizens/neighbors (‘spouses’ in a sense, since we and our children will be together forever), those who are sometimes the least capable, & didn’t succeeed in Mexico/other by their talents and work ethic? Do we want the most lazy parasites who are here primarily to enjoy the ~free ride???

The most industrious & hardworking who have succeeded (in economic competition — not just succeeded in getting social program $$) might stay (ones with Tranditional American Values) those we might not mind / even want to stay.

…in my opinion.

Posted by: Brian at May 25, 2006 5:46 AM
Comment #151147

Enforce the laws on the books now befor asking for more laws that will be ignored in a short period of time anyway. Hell hit the people who hire illegials in the pocket book. Make that so expensive that they can’t ever suceed again. Make the act of hiring an illegial scarry, make it so hireing many illegials so scarry that murder looks like a picknick in the park. If they can’t get jobs here they won’t come, at least not in the millions that we have now. Make paying for the education of a child not born in this country the responsibility of the parent not the tax payer (I may be able to work in Europe in a couple of years for an American company, If I go I will have to pay for the education of my children). This is standard in most developed countries. Hit people in the pocket book it will work. We really don’t need fences.

Posted by: timesend at May 25, 2006 6:42 AM
Comment #151165

Of course the illegals don’t have it as bad as the slaves did. At it’s worst it’s “Slave labor”; at best, it’s “cheap labor”.


Posted by: rahdigly at May 25, 2006 9:54 AM
Comment #151182

Alex-
Your plan would essentially solve the problem of illegal immigration by making this a less prosperous nation. The business of this nation, if they could get away with it, would pay employees a pittance. Not all prices would fall equally, and we’d be left in situations where the strong distinction between rich and poor would flourish here, as it has in third world countries around the world.

What’s causing this is a lack of moral discipline, and a lack of the law enforcement to back that up. Businessmen are letting (if not seeking outright)the seductive promises of below-market wages, so they can undercut competitors. If we made the consequences for that severe enough, and made sure we applied such consequences visibly and regularly, there would be demand for below cost jobs on the other side of the border, but not supply.

At the same time, we have to lower some of the economic restrictions on immigration. If a person is willing to uproot themselves to come here, we should give them the chance to set up a life here. With minimum wages in place, and the thrifty, hardworking, ambitious zeal most immigrants bring to their work, it wouldn’t be long before they brought themselves and us the prosperity that comes of that. They would also give the rest of us who were born here the kick in the keister we need to actually work things out.

We do not need a solution that so misdiagnoses the problems, like yours does. The problem is not that illegals are better competitors, it’s that they, and those who are using them are illegal competitors, which our government has failed to defend business against. If we don’t apply the law, competition will entrench those practices and the problem of illegal immigration with them.

Recognize that there is a problem, and have the guts to solve it in a way that has some integrity.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at May 25, 2006 10:43 AM
Comment #151185

Wow-I had to go back and re-read your comments Alex. And I came to the same conclusion. Whoever she was,get over it. While it may be good therapy to dump poisionous vitrolic garbage on the general public,it has no place in a reasoned discussion. Alex-basic math lesson. Immigrants= people. Scared people. People who see that once again the kids are hungry. People who see that mom and dad arent getting any younger. And frankly,we have got a lot. Of food. of opportunity. And yes,while I enjoy a good salad,I Don’t want to pick it. Do we need a comprehensive plan to allow these people in with some guarantee of accountability? Yes! Are they all criminals? Yes! But in the same sense that you or I are when we taste a grape at the local market. Or roll through a stop sign late at night on a deserted street.Ever shoot off a firecracker? Or drink a beer before the age of 21? Hypocrisy does not sit well with me. Whats next? Perhaps we should require them to wear a certain style of clothing to publicly attest to their serfdom.

Posted by: jblym at May 25, 2006 10:47 AM
Comment #151187

Many of the illegal aliens in the construction employ receive much more than $50 a week. Then with all those extra SS ID’s they get to collect SS funds for each of those ID’s. Boy are they makin’ out. I say they should be charged with fraud.
Another item that is a real insult to those who are here legally from outside our borders. There is action to get the 12 million illegals immediadely, meaning now, to be able to vote in this years election. Now if that don’t frost your muffin. That is just another indicator that the illegal aliens are not here just to work but they really do want to reconquer the SW US.
The federal government should use emminent domain to take one mile of land on US soil all across the Mexica-US border and build a canal. Use the canal for shipping purpose and use it also to help stem the tide of the outsiders entering this country illegally. We could then help the economy and reduce illegal activity all in one stance.

Posted by: tomh at May 25, 2006 10:47 AM
Comment #151191

You want to stop the flow of illegals?

Make hiring an illegal a felony. Make the penalty jail time (years) and $100,000 for each illegal hired.

Only if the penalties are stiff enough will these guys think twice about hiring someone even remotely questionable.
Ignorance is no excuse.

Posted by: Rocky at May 25, 2006 10:58 AM
Comment #151193

Tomh maybe we can dig up some of those land mines they are finding in potatoes from Belgium and seed the borders with them. Or better yet have the Mexican government forbid the teaching of swimming lessons to any of its citizens,and then build a really,really,really,long pool. This is troubling hate-mongering! If your neighbors house is on fire,you don’t create conditions before you lend him your hose. Our beef is not with the people who are trying to feed themselves,but with the Mexican Government. Since it appears that outsourcing is an ongoing and long term solution to keeping Americans from gainful employment,why not send these jobs to Mexico?

Posted by: jblym at May 25, 2006 11:05 AM
Comment #151291

When the USA joins the great graveyard of past empires and nations… illegal immigration will have been a catalyst.

Posted by: Mike Tate at May 25, 2006 2:21 PM
Comment #151318
But in the same sense that you or I are when we taste a grape at the local market. Or roll through a stop sign late at night on a deserted street.Ever shoot off a firecracker? Or drink a beer before the age of 21? Hypocrisy does not sit well with me.

jblym:

Comparing tasting a grape at the foodmarket to illegally entering a country and evading taxes is apples and oranges, at best.

Our beef is not with the people who are trying to feed themselves,but with the Mexican Government.

Not quite, our beef is with both the illegals and the Mexican government. But, since we cant dictate Mexican policy, (although we could try and influence it) and since all Vicente Fox wants to do is legalize all the illegals and persuade us not to militarize the border, he wont he much help.

At the same time, we have to lower some of the economic restrictions on immigration. If a person is willing to uproot themselves to come here, we should give them the chance to set up a life here.

Stephen:

I have no problem with leagl immigrants coming over here to work. What I do have a problem with is criminals who think they can just hop our border, evade taxes and assimilate into society with no ramifictaions.

We do not need a solution that so misdiagnoses the problems, like yours does.

Misdiagnoses? I believe I’ve cut right at the core of the issue. When you eliminate the illegals incentive to want to be here, quite simply, they’ll leave. And since I dont believe cracking down on the businesses is feasible, this is the next best thing.

Enforce the laws on the books now befor asking for more laws that will be ignored in a short period of time anyway. Hell hit the people who hire illegials in the pocket book. Make that so expensive that they can’t ever suceed again. Make the act of hiring an illegial scarry, make it so hireing many illegials so scarry that murder looks like a picknick in the park.

timesend:

If it were only that easy. But what good is a law if theres no way to enforce it? And by the look of things, it seems like theres no way to adeuqately enforce that type of law.

Posted by: Alex Fitzsimmons at May 25, 2006 3:24 PM
Comment #151335

Alex,

This is a preposterous solution. I’m a conservative, but I don’t want unsafe working conditions for anyone in this country. I don’t want anyone in this country working for less than minimum wage. Next, it is preposterous because it won’t work. Wages are dictated by the market. The minimum wage is a floor not a ceiling. Good illegal workers like all good workers will work their up to what their labor is worth. Finally, it’s insulting. These people come here for a reason because there is opportunity. Why do we need to impede their access to it. There is no major unemployment problem here. The economy needs the labor. Let them work and further the success of the country. Secure the borders, but the illegals just aren’t that big of problem, in fact they are a big help.

Brian you said,

and do we really want as new permanent citizens/neighbors (‘spouses’ in a sense, since we and our children will be together forever), those who are sometimes the least capable, & didn’t succeeed in Mexico/other by their talents and work ethic? Do we want the most lazy parasites who are here primarily to enjoy the ~free ride???

This sentiment is not backed up by most immigration studies. Most find that immigrants are usually the most ambitious and talented not th opposite. They come here because the opportunity to succeed is greater and there are fewer barriers to success, not because it is easier to slide by.

Posted by: Rob at May 25, 2006 4:36 PM
Comment #151342

Rob,

I said we don’t want the most lazy parasites who are here for a ~free ride (yes, this is some of them). …or because they enjoy gang-violence, drug running, or other illegal activity. I continued that the most industrious & hardworking who succeed on their own w/o handouts are ones we might want to keep. I think this makes sense. Yes?

Please do not try to spin others’ words / views.

Yes, Einstein was more talented than most Americans, and many many others who felt constrained back home to their potential greatness PLUS they did so legally.

But c’mon, this is not the same situation re today’s Mexican/other illegal immigrants today. Most are the least motivated, driven, talented, etc., which is why most are the lowest echelons in Mexico/other. I don’t think their hearts, souls, or talents will change when they cross the Rio.

We should allow immigrants who will do the most good for the US. MAXIMIZE THE BENEFIT WE ARE *RECEIVING*, NOT MAXIMIZE WHAT WE ARE *GIVING*. There are MANY (maybe a ~billion people) around the world who would like to come here. We should CHERRY PICK the best (maybe 500,000/yr — how many do you think?).

We should give those who don’t have the drive/talent to compete in Mexico/other.

Anything wrong / inaccurate about this statement?


Yes, I too would also like the US to become more of a motivated meritocrity for those who were born here, as well. Agreed.

Posted by: Brian at May 25, 2006 5:13 PM
Comment #151369
I’m a conservative, but I don’t want unsafe working conditions for anyone in this country. I don’t want anyone in this country working for less than minimum wage. Next, it is preposterous because it won’t work. Wages are dictated by the market. The minimum wage is a floor not a ceiling. Good illegal workers like all good workers will work their up to what their labor is worth. Finally, it’s insulting. These people come here for a reason because there is opportunity. Why do we need to impede their access to it.

Rob:

You dont feel insulted that these illegal aliens just hop into out country, soak up our resources, dont pay their taxes, bring their drug and gun violence with them (some of them) and evade taxation? I know I do. And I’m not willing to sit by and let these criminals toy me around, and you shouldnt either, which is why I want them to either pay for their transgressions or leave.

In regard to wages, theres no market for illegal alien salaries because they cant complain to immigration for fear of being deported, and they have no say in government. The businesses will dictate the wages…and you can bet they will drop them as low as possible…well below what the illegals are earning now.

And, finally, I encourage law-abiding, honest immigrants to come to America, they will be protected. However, I will not protect the rights of illegal, conniving, fraudulent criminals.

Not today, not ever.

Posted by: Alex Fitzsimmons at May 25, 2006 6:01 PM
Comment #151391

Rob,

Hope I didn’t sound too critical overall. I agree that immigrants historically have been more motivated, on average.

I suspect if we Cherry Picked ~1/2 million foreigners / year, we could get some really MOTIVATED and TALENTED people. We should even pay their way here. A good Indian, Uzbek, Ethiopian, E.European, wherever — a ~$400 avg plane ticket might be a pittance and great investment versus what they will do for us over a lifetime.

Yes, current illegal Mexicans are often Catholic & family people … some cultural similarities. Nonetheless, it seems these illegal immigrants are simultaneously the least motivated, least talented, least interested in education, most drug-focussed immigration group USA has ever considered.

Not a good cultural fit, and probably honestly not the right people. We should not accept rule-breakers who are not good for us, and EXTREMELY BAD for us relative to whom we could have.

What do you think?

Posted by: Brian at May 25, 2006 7:20 PM
Comment #151396

Alex-I could not disagree with you more. It’s the old saw about if a man had to take bread to feed his starving children,is it stealing? These people dont come here because Sabado Gigante is a repeat on tv. They are feeding their families,keeping a roof over their heads. We need these workers. Should all suffer for the crimes of a few? Should the fact that Americans are born at a certain latitude and longitude give us the right to feed the rest of the world with an eyedropper? We are sitting inside the biggest nest,the greatest economic machine in history,and you want to parcel out the crusts from the bread. Shame! Are you any less deserving simply because your looking in at America instead of out from it? I think not,and suggest that instead of adhering to miserly,selfish,insecurities,we actively seek to incorporate these folks into the mainstream as quickly as possible. If you want a pragmatic reason,think of this. The ratio of people being supported by workers through the social security program is increasing,with a corresponding decrease in new births. Here are millions of people who are only asking for the chance to pay into a system that will benefit you and all other Americans.

Posted by: jblym at May 25, 2006 8:08 PM
Comment #151413

Fitzsimmons:

Not only is that illegal but it is also not cost effective. We already cant keep tabs on businesses who hire illegals, and to expand the system to adequately fill that need would be incredibly time consuming and costly.>>>

There are already rules in place to monitor employers hiring practices. Offices of the Department of Labor are charged with checking the I-9 records of employers and reporting to Homeland Security any that appear suspicious. The issue is not there is no way to monitor employers, but rather the Bush administration’s “hands off the employers” policies. There were 417 citations for illegal hiring in 2000; 3 (yes, three) in 2004. There were over a thousand per year most of 1990s.

In order for any law to be effective, it must be enforced. All the Senate has done is rewrite the same laws from 1986. And there will again be no enforcement. so like George’s “Constitution is just a damned piece of paper” assertion, a law is worthless paper without living enforcement. The 1986 law died for lack of attention and so will this one once it is passed. Watch for another round of amnesty around 2015.

Posted by: KDTEXAS at May 25, 2006 9:17 PM
Comment #151415

The House has it right. The Senate has it totally wrong.

If your basement springs a leak, do you attend to the flood first or fix the leak and then clean up the flood?

Right - fix the leak first. But then who expects politicians to exhibit common sense.

Posted by: KDTEXAS at May 25, 2006 9:20 PM
Comment #151451

jblym wrote: These people dont come here because Sabado Gigante is a repeat on tv. They are feeding their families,keeping a roof over their heads. We need these workers.

No they are not feeding their families or putting a roof over their heads, we the tax paying citizens are. they work 3 months of the year and live off us the full twelve. we do not need these workers anymore than we need more shoplifters, murderers or pedophiles.

Let’s send them to Cuba, Danny Glover and some of the elite say it is a paradise. I am sure Castro could use some cheap labor.

damn you bleeding heart liberals actully cannot function without the warm fuzzies.

Posted by: lm at May 26, 2006 12:04 AM
Comment #151532

Brian, fair enough.

My point, as it always is, that Alex’s post is intellectually dishonest.

I agree that Illegal labor is not slavery. We have a history that will not allow us to politically utter those words.

The slavers didn’t believe they were abusing people. Many thought it was their duty to be saviors of their lessers by not giving them human rights. After all, they were unchristian heathens, to whom they provided opportunity. Besides, recognizing their humanity would destroy society.

Alex mimics that sentiment in this piece. Only by uttering those taboo words, in my opinion, can there be some light shed on the venomous thinking here.

Posted by: gergle at May 26, 2006 9:09 AM
Comment #151570
The slavers didn’t believe they were abusing people. Many thought it was their duty to be saviors of their lessers by not giving them human rights. After all, they were unchristian heathens, to whom they provided opportunity. Besides, recognizing their humanity would destroy society…Alex mimics that sentiment in this piece.

Gergle:

So, I’m a racist slaveholder now? I should join the KKK, right? I’m sorry sir, but you have it all wrong.

The only thing I’m guilty of is trying to punish criminals and expunge transgressors from America. And if that’s a crime then we have a lot more serious problems than immigration reform.

Only by uttering those taboo words, in my opinion, can there be some light shed on the venomous thinking here.

You want to talk about venomous, how about hopping into a country illegally, bringing your drugs and violence with you, selfishly soaking up the law-abiding tax payer’s resources, evading taxes from the government, and then giving the puppy face like nothing happened.

That, sir, is venomous.

Posted by: Alex Fitzsimmons at May 26, 2006 10:53 AM
Comment #151600

JLW

Check out www.wehireillegals.com they post businesses that hire illegals there.

JT

Posted by: JayTea at May 26, 2006 12:17 PM
Comment #151627

Im- well that’s it I guess. I’ve been outed as a “bleeding heart liberal” And damned to boot!
Thank You. If caring about people makes me a bad guy then so be it. Your tone makes me feel like I am dealing with Mr. Wilson from the Dennis the Menace cartoons.
We need people for a lot more than the backbreaking gut wrenching labor that they perform. Let me take the selfish, narrowminded,crybaby viewpoint for a minute.
Well,golly-we could always send them to die in Iraq.
We don’t have to return the millions of dollars they have already paid in Social Security.
If we turn them into citizens,by gosh,they can pay my social security when I get there.
Y’know maybe it would be o.k. as long as they didnt move into the doublewide next to mine!
So,you see Im it could work out even if you were a selfish,uneducated, penny-pinching ingrate who’s only claim to fame is that his ancestors got here a little sooner.
Liberally Yours,
jblym

Posted by: jblym at May 26, 2006 1:00 PM
Comment #151641

now you get it. we are a nation of immigrants not ingrates. If you think they plan on paying your retirement you are an overeduated DA. My double wide is perfect without diapers in the alley and Musica de Mexico blaring while they kill a goat and drink all the beer you can get with a wic card. I would not send them to Iraq to die, they can take their families with them and die of old age in Mexico.

pay your way or go away.

Posted by: lm at May 26, 2006 1:46 PM
Comment #151643

sorry I missed the part about the gut wrenching labor they perform for 3 months a year. well goolie g whiz i would like a free ride for 1 day of work for each 60 drinking beer and raising kids, ( goats not children.) your concern for their well being breaks my heart as the new Amnesty law you want so bad only requires they work 150 days a year or 1 in 60 to get and keep a blue card. goolie g whiz I wish I could have your concern for other people when I only want my children and grand children to have it.

goolie g whiz I hope you run for office so you can really care for them.


Posted by: lm at May 26, 2006 1:51 PM
Comment #151645

serously, we could slow down immigration a lot if the ranchers would open up gun ranges on the border and let people shot cans and rabbits or just blast away at the bushes breaking limbs off. after all it is their land and trespassers will be at their own risk.

Posted by: lm at May 26, 2006 1:56 PM
Comment #151665

Wow,I never really thought I was over eduated
just educated enough to realize that to live in fear and loathing is not really living at all.
Let me think could there be any other jobs that require you to work a fairly short time for compensation?
Teachers
Actors
Politicians
Cowboys
While I don’t neccesarily want to listen to “Musica de Mexico” all day I enjoy a good mariachi band.
If the stores are selling beer to patrons based on WIC cards,you should report them to your local police as Im pretty sure they are violating Federal law.
Baby goats are cute.
I apoligize for the Mr. Wilson analogy,I was doing him a grave diservice with that comparision.

Posted by: jblym at May 26, 2006 2:27 PM
Comment #151673

Oh by the way, IM they make this thing called the Diaper Genie…..
consider getting one.

Posted by: jblym at May 26, 2006 2:38 PM
Comment #151727

I accept your apoligy. Now they don’t actually buy the beer with a wic card you see they use the money they save buying groceries with the wic card. now that is only the money they keep and don’t send back to Mexico to support that economy that everyone is so concerned about.

but I do need to check that Diaper genie out! where did you get yours? Ain’t it great when we can all just get along. thanks for the validation, now I can feel good about myself.

you seem a little stressed, maybe you should see a shrink.

Posted by: lm at May 26, 2006 5:29 PM
Comment #151731

You seem to have misunderstood,the apology was to Mr. Wilson. I just wanted you to know that there are many republicans I admire,sadly most of them are dead now.
Seriously though, do you know of good recipes for rattlesnake stew,mine just keeps on tasting like chicken. I think you must be good at cooking them since your out by the border with a gun.
I want you to know that you should not put down seeing a shrink,they can really help a person past the non acceptance of reality.
And when it comes down to it,what makes America great in its inclusion policies,even the oddballs.

Posted by: jblym at May 26, 2006 5:46 PM
Comment #151740

man I am glad you apoligied to Mr. Wilson. How did you get my real name. is the moderator giving out personal information? Now that is not playing fair. You don’t have to call me Mr.; you can call me Wilson or Sir if you want.

I don’t eat rattlesnakes because they taste like chicken. I like Mexican food. I used to admire some republicans until they became so chicken like the Liberals; wishie washie.

Now I feel we could be friends since you got my real name that makes me feel so warm and fuzzie I just think I will go out and hug a tree.

I wish I was more like you so I could look down on others just because they do not want to be flooded with the same people who have destroyed our neighborhood.

How is the weather up there?

Oh BTW, I am not out on the border yet, but might just go help out sometime. You know the jobs Americans in Congress don’t want to do. protect Amercia and her citizens.

Posted by: lm at May 26, 2006 6:24 PM
Comment #151744

The only time I would ever want to look down on someone is if I was helping them to their feet. Instead of complaining about the destruction of your neighborhood,get involved in its rebirth. It may ever be so humble,but there’s no place like home. For all of us.
and by the way those diaper genies sure can hold a lot of s**t

Posted by: jblym at May 26, 2006 6:35 PM
Comment #151757

I can tell they hold a lot since your wearing one. you should be about ten pounds lighter now. BTW I might just rebuild my neighborhood by sending the trash to the disposal or mexico, can’t tell the dif no more.

I love it when you libs talk dirty. seems so out of character?

you seem so out of touch with the problems of our country, maybe you should spend some time hunting down your daughters blue bicycle. it might be your neighbor’s brown bicycle now.

I do know some fine immigrants, I am talking about the ones who only want to come to Amercia to get the freebie. America bean very good to me!

Posted by: lm at May 26, 2006 7:35 PM
Comment #151761

you win im i cant take the time to educate every poster who can say I know you are but what am I.Nobody wants a freeloader living off them,but if you would take the time away from unreasoned hatred,you might find that most of those people who came here undocumented are working very hard at jobs you or I might not take. Good Luck, you will need it.

Posted by: jblym at May 26, 2006 7:44 PM
Comment #151765

Luck is for those who don’t prepare. The more I practice the luckier I get. It was nice meeting you even though it seems you don’t like me for some reason. You might be one of those mean sprited Democrats or even worst one of those citizens of the world. whatever it has been my pleasure and thanks again for the apoligy.

we still on for Christmas?

Posted by: lm at May 26, 2006 8:05 PM
Comment #151767

cant make it the last cherry picker just moved here and your going to mexico

Posted by: jblym at May 26, 2006 8:10 PM
Comment #151794

we finally got them all. now vfox will have to come campaign in the US. wait, I think he already is. and all this time you boys thought that cheney was giving stupid is as stupid does his orders.

was that a communist flag the mojados were flying in the LA Minuteman Rally?

Posted by: lm at May 26, 2006 9:27 PM
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