Arizona or Anbar?

While our troops fight and die in Iraq making sure the Anbar province does not rip off into a Jihadist state, we face the awful truth that many are unaware of: we risk eventual loss of Arizona the same way Iraq risks losing Anbar.

Ethnic and cultural allegiance in Anbar trumps any chance of national glue cementing in Iraq. Mass unassimilated illegal immigration, from predominantly Mexico, for years into Arizona, as well as the rest of the southwestern United States, has created a situation resembling Mexico in many parts. And so, as our troops fight to keep a multicultural Iraq from fragmenting, we risks future multicultural fragmentation in our own country.

As we know, President Bush unleashed his plans to secure America’s frontier by temporarily stationing National Guard troops on the border until Border Patrol agents can handle the task.

However, as quickly as President Bush announced his plans to deploy thousands of National Guardsmen on the border, the critics shot back that the Guard is stretched too thin to assist with border security.

  • Sen. Ted Kennedy asserted, "The National Guard already is stretched to the limit by repeated tours in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as from providing disaster assistance in their own states."
  • Congressman Jim Costa claimed "Our National Guard is stretched very thin. I just came back from Iraq last week. We have Reservists and Guard folks that are on the second and third tour of duties."
  • Sen. Chuck Hagel said, "We've got National Guard members on their second, third and fourth tours in Iraq. We have stretched our military as thin as we have ever seen it in modern times. And what in the world are we talking about here, sending a National Guard that we may not have any capacity to send up to or down to protect borders?" Hagel noted that 75 percent of National Guard equipment is in Iraq.
  • Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid said that "as a result of the war in Iraq" the Guard was, "so overextended, so depleted in numbers and in equipment, I don't know how in the world we could ask them to have this additional burden."

If the National Guard is overburdened, then we should call in the Army. Clearly this is a crisis in which we need everything we’ve got -- this is a crisis bankrupting our social services, overcrowding our schools, raising the crime rate, and morphing our national identity. But, analysts assess the Army too is stretched to the breaking point. Therefore, an overstretched military in Iraq, Afghanistan, and over 100 other countries eliminates the option of securing the border with them.

Meanwhile, millions of illegal immigrants from Mexico continue to pour into America. Thousands of these Mexicans view the southwest as a place that was once rightly theirs, a place that is still theirs -- irredentists passions flare. Is Iraq a harbinger for what the United States could morph into -- a country doomed for partition based on cultures? President Bush noted the importance of cultural assimilation in his immigration speech Monday night by asserting we must honor "the great American tradition of the melting pot, which has made us one Nation out of many peoples."

While our troops line the borders of Korea, Kuwait, and Kosovo, and seal Iraq’s during their elections, our borders remain porous. While our Guard assists with floods, fires, and hurricanes across the nation, millions of illegal immigrants into America. We come to the ultimate decision -- which is more important: fighting to keep Anbar province part of Iraq or letting Arizona inevitably become part of Mexico because we lack the troops to secure the border? Both situations are of critical importance. Iraq, however, appears to be going in a direction that it would with or without U.S. troops. Whether we leave Iraq or not, it will continue to become a failed, fractious multicultural country. Let’s not let the same happen to our country.

Posted by Mike Tate at May 18, 2006 7:25 AM
Comment #149166

Mike, as I have writting many times since 2003, the opportunity costs of invading Iraq have been too damned high. And they just got a whole lot higher.

What could we have done with a quarter trillion dollars spent in Iraq? What could we do with the quarter trillion more we are going to spend in Iraq. I see we are going to negotiate with N. Korea. Did Bush decide to negotitate with Kim Jung Il who has nuclear weapons and missiles because our troops are now spread too thin? What could we have done with the 2,500 American soldiers lives spent in Iraq had they remained alive? What could we have done with the 20% of the American wounded in Iraq who can never return to duty because of their wounds?

We have so many pressing problems, deficits, debt, educational standards falling, wages going down for bottom two quintiles while prices for everyday necessities keep rising, losses of higher paying jobs in favor of lower paying ones, mortgage defaults rising, bankruptcies setting records, gang and racial violence is spiralling again. So many problems. And so much of our national resources being directed to Iraq.

The domino theory of democracy in the Middle East failed just a miserably as the Communist Domino theory in S.E. Asia did in the 1970’s. We were wrong about the domino theory then, we are wrong about it again, now. The U.S. has increased terrorist recruits and instability in the Middle East in the name of eliminating it.

Iraq measured by human losses, many argue is not an expensive war compared to WWII or Viet Nam. But in terms of opportunity costs, the Iraq war has been and continues to be a very expensive war for the United States and her people. The full cost won’t be known or paid for decades. But it will keep rising.

Posted by: David R. Remer at May 18, 2006 8:27 AM
Comment #149176

And let us not forget the opportunity cost in Afghanistan. Hundreds of Taliban attacked a town yesterday - 13 police killed, 40 Taliban killed. Had we not invaded Iraq, our troops could have been so numerous in Afghanistan as to have removed the Taliban completely or demonstrated to them the futility of remaining Taliban a couple years ago. As it is, Taliban still control parts of Afghanistan and are making us look like the Russians before us, incompetent and unable to defeat them or break their spirit to endure.

It was afterall, the Taliban who supported and defended al-Queda who attacked us on 9/11, not Iraqis. Yet, the Taliban thrive still.

Posted by: David R. Remer at May 18, 2006 9:06 AM
Comment #149179

David, I confess I was one of the ones who fell for the domino theory that was floated in defense of invading Iraq. The strategic projection of our power toward the oil fields seemed a reasonable strategy.

Someone here at Watchblog asked me to explain it and I immediately began to see the thiness of the argument. The apparent volatility and limited supply of oil, now makes that argument thin as well. Renewable sources seem our best strategic move.

We are now begining to see the effects of the war on our economy. As the CPI rises and the fed raises interest rates, the Dow has stumbled.

I have yet to see anyone show me where we need to place the military on the border to deal with invading Al Aqaeda or Mexico If they are invading, they seem to be invisible and completely ineffective. While Mike wants to start lobbing bombs in Arizona, I think dealing with the rogue employers undermining our labor laws would be more effective.

I realize this is election season, the season of panic and hyperbole, but I hope we aren’t slinging our troops around the US and the world for political effect.

Posted by: gergle at May 18, 2006 9:12 AM
Comment #149180

Have to part company with you Mr Remer, when you say we have failed in the pursuit of those who murdered so many on 9/11. Most of the terrorists who would do our families and this country harm have been killed in SW Asia, or imprisoned there and elsewhere. They have run to ground like the cowards they are and only pop up to kill some children or teachers or other unarmed civilian. We are winning and I believe GWB will be in the white house long enough to finish this job.

Have there have been opportunity cost? Yes, but where would the money have been spent if not defeating those who would see out society dismantled? Those opportunity costs, which you decry - are only a pittance considering the return.

Posted by: Seminole 6 at May 18, 2006 9:14 AM
Comment #149184

Funny how Republicans are now trying to distance themselves from their Great War.

Let us never forget whose incompetence Iraq belongs to. The Republicans have much to pay for.

Posted by: Aldous at May 18, 2006 9:41 AM
Comment #149185
we face the awful truth that many are unaware of: we risk eventual loss of Arizona the same way Iraq risks losing Anbar.

We’re not losing Arizona…I live close to the border…Bush has quite deliberately done zilch, zero, nada toward easing the problem involving border crossers …it has greatly impacted our hospitals and to a certain extent our education (?) system [we’re at the bottom anyway!]. It’s a question of rather small amounts of money (small to the federal government, anyway).

If people don’t like our mix of English/Spanish, seafood delicacies/Mexican food, retiree culture/Mexican culture/Native AmericanI mean it, we don’t have enough water for you anyway.

Comparing Arizona to Iraq…just plain silly.

Posted by: Lynne at May 18, 2006 9:43 AM
Comment #149187

The real threat to Arizona is not from illegal immigrants (damn, who would clean up after the ‘blancos’ everyday).

The real threat is the huge drop in the aquifer that is supplying water to all of southern Arizona. Just go and visit Tuscon which hasn’t had rain in 10 months. You will see sprinklers keeping golf courses green and private gardens blooming - and I am not talking about blooming cactus.

If you think immigrants are a danger, remember your great capitalist creed of supply and demand. Unless you address the demand (corporations will not pay a living wage for menial labor) of cheap unskilled labor at below market wages, then you will have a steady stream of immigrants. On the supply side, if we stopped US Agri subisidies, then farming in Mexico would be a vialbe living for these people. the USA AGribusiness is destroying the agrarian economy of Latin AMerica, just as it destroyed the small farmer here.

Remember, most immigrants do not want to leave their homes. They have to in order to eat and survive. Change that situation and then you won’t have these spanish-speaking hordes ruining your wonderful lily-white gated communities.

Posted by: acetracy at May 18, 2006 9:56 AM
Comment #149189

Sending National Guard troops to the border is an obvious political ploy by the President. In his address to the nation, if he were serious about illegal immigration, he would have said, I am sending troops to secure the border and I am ordering ORDERING the F.B.I. and Immigration to immediately begin obtaining search warrants for employers who are suspected of hiring illegals. I am also calling on state and local governments and law enforcement officials to assist the federal government in it’s efforts to arrest employers who are violating our laws. In addition, I will be asking Congress to enact legislation which will allow some employers to retain illegal workers if-

1)They can prove that they are paying their workforce a good and fair wage for the work that is being done.

2)That even by paying a good wage, they can not recruit enough American workers to fill all of the positions avaliable.

Illegal immigrants who are retained in this manner will be given two options-

1)They can declare themselves migrant workers and they will be given a set period of time to work before they have to leave the country.

2)They declare their intention to apply for citizenship and they will be given the opportunity to learn english and do the other things necessary to become a citizen.

Posted by: jlw at May 18, 2006 10:05 AM
Comment #149201


Those same Senators you lambast for questioning the president’s plan have been pushing boader security ever since 9/11. Their purpose was to secure the boarders against terrorism. A secure boarder is a secure boarder and would serve the purpose of alleviating our illegal immigrant problems as well.

It’s funny the president is “just now” concerned about the boarder. Better late than never I suppose.

Posted by: Tom L at May 18, 2006 11:11 AM
Comment #149204


“Did Bush decide to negotitate (sic) with Kim Jung Il who has nuclear weapons and missiles because our troops are now spread too thin?”

A war with a nuclear power wouldn’t be in anyone’s best interest. The best idea is to stop them before they become a nuclear threat. President Bush was left with a big stinking turd, thanks to every liberal’s hero, Billy Boy Clinton. He completely blew it with North Korea, and here we are today, being forced to negotiate with a madman.

To aid in refreshing your memory, I believe it was the Military Chief of Staff in the Clinton cabinet that said that North Korea does NOT POSSESS any ballistic missiles. One week later, North Korea fired a ballistic warning shot over the bow of Japan, landing off the coast of Alaska.

Conservatives during Clinton’s early Presidency clamored for a more hard-line approach to North Korea to preemptively stop them from becoming a nuclear threat. But that’s not what Clinton wanted… Instead he chose to send my personal hero (gasp), Jimmie Carter to negotiate.

And here we are today, blaming President Bush for everything left to him to do, and wondering why he is negotiating with a nuclear power such as North Korea. But it’s because there are too many troops in Iraq, Afghanistan and Arizona.

Let’s keep working that way. Let’s negotiate with Iran, too. It worked so well with North Korea. Let’s give them a nuclear reactor (like Clinton gave North Korea). Let’s send them billions of dollars in aid (like Clinton did for North Korea). Then let’s wait for China to complete the package with more nuclear help, more weapons systems, more technology.

This is the problem, liberals are not living in the real world. The real world is that we have enemies that lie to us and deceive us. Oh… that’s Bush’s fault too. North Korea developed nuclear weaponry because Bush declared them a threat.

Never mind… I give up.

Posted by: Bruce at May 18, 2006 11:45 AM
Comment #149212

Here’s an idea. Let’s just pull all our troops out of every foreign country and bring them home. Then we can station them along the border so thick that an illegal wouldn’t have a chance to get across the border.
None of the countries we have them in really want us there anyway. Besides who cares if North Korea invades South Korea again? The Soviet Union don’t exist anymore. Why keep troops in Europe? The war in Kosovo is over. We don’t need troops there anymore. O yeah, Castro is a nice guy, why keep Guantanamo open?
Lets get our troops on our border.
I like the wall idea better. We can place remote controlled cameras and guns on towers and secure out border with less man power.

Posted by: Ron Brown at May 18, 2006 12:12 PM
Comment #149216

Ron Brown,

I like the wall idea better. We can place remote controlled cameras and guns on towers and secure out border with less man power.

Miss the Iron Curtain, do you? Want one closer to home?

Posted by: Rob Cottrell at May 18, 2006 12:22 PM
Comment #149237

RE: IRON CURTAIN cheapshot

I love it when lefties mention the Iron Curtain as a way of criticizing a secure Mexican border fence. Rob wants you to think the Iron Curtain was built to keep people from sneaking INTO wonderful places like East Germany.

Too bad Rob. Not all of us are as stupid as you left wingers wish.

For all of you who are too young (or were educated by one of Rob’s comrades in a US public school) please note:

The Iron Curtain was built by the Soviets (people who no doubt occupied a special place in Rob’s heart). Its purpose: to keep people from LEAVING.

Lefties like Rob hate to admit that people detest living under corrupt Socialist dhimwits.

Mexico (also horribly corrupt) has decided they would be better off urging millions of their people sneak into the US, get black market jobs, depress our wages, get free government services and then send dollars to Mexico. Over the long run, if those people get the right to vote in the US, they will be natural-born Democrats.

Good fences make good neighbors. If Mexico can’t be a good neighbor, then we need a very, very good fence.

Posted by: jcmeredith at May 18, 2006 2:10 PM
Comment #149248


I make one 11-word comment about Ron’s proposal, and you think you can judge my entire life from that??? You need to take some serious lessons on drawing effective conclusions. Either that, or you’re too immersed in two-party politics for your own good.

I’m not a “Democrat”, “leftie”, “left winger”, “Socialist”, or “Soviet”, thank you very much.

So what part of “Miss the Iron Curtain, do you? Want one closer to home?” says to you that I think the Iron Curtain was a good thing? You’ve seriously jumped off the logic train here, dude.

And, to set the record straight, the Iron Curtain (which was a BAD THING) was built for two purposes — to keep foreign influence OUT, and to keep the citizens IN. No doubt it was sold to the masses, though, as a protection from the enemy.

And now America’s being offered the same pitch — a wall to protect us from the enemy. All so that we don’t have to deal with our neighbor’s mess.

It’s one thing I’ve never understood about us Americans. If our neighbor has a mess in his back yard, we’d rather build a privacy fence than help our neighbor clean up the mess. It’s pathetic.

Posted by: Rob Cottrell at May 18, 2006 2:34 PM
Comment #149251

Oh, and regarding the “Good fences make good neighbors” quote, I recommend you read Robert Frost’s “Mending Wall”.

Posted by: Rob Cottrell at May 18, 2006 2:47 PM
Comment #149252

jlw: you may have given the most accurate and concise write-up I have ever seen about the entire situation. This is so typically Bush. Answer part of the problem, but leave out crucial elements which will aid in overcoming the problem.

The laws currently in effect would be quite adequate if they were enforced properly. It’s amazing how Chertoff found just the right legal citations to raid, arrest employer reps, and deport illegals in another blatantly political move to “fool” Americans into believing this administration gives a damn about the law. If Tyson and Purdue Foods were raided, the federal coffers could be greatly enhanced with the fines and send an explosive message via jail terms that the law is the law.

Posted by: KDTEXAS at May 18, 2006 2:52 PM
Comment #149259


I think if you look at the amount of money America sends to other countries in the form of aid, you’d need to reconsider your statement that “If our neighbor has a mess in his back yard, we’d rather build a privacy fence than help our neighbor clean up the mess.”

That having been said, its not OUR mess. It affects us, but we are not the cause of it, nor are we responsible for fixing it. If our neighbor never cuts the grass, leaving their yard looking shabby, it is not our responsibility to go cut the grass for him/her.

We do need to be involved in the process of helping solve the problem, but we can never take on the ownership of the problem. That is what many want us to do, but we have to avoid that.

Posted by: joebagodonuts at May 18, 2006 3:48 PM
Comment #149264

Tom L,

I agree… it’s been almost 5 years and President Bush is JUST now announcing a comprehensive plan…

Posted by: Mike Tate at May 18, 2006 4:30 PM
Comment #149268

Man this is a good topic. I have enjoyed reading it. I understand what the original article is trying to say. We are in the process of being invaded. Arizona is slowly being culturally assimilated and if we allow this that someday it may even be physically assimilated into Mexico.


When the Soviets put the wall up in Berlin they sold the idea to no one. They simply just did it one night. The next morning the city was divided. People were fleeing from the soviets to the western part of the city in droves. This is why the wall was put up. yes it had other effects as well. there was no public debate about it there city was truely occupied and the soviets did what ever they wanted to. Sadly, the west did nothing to stop it if we had there most likely would have been another war but who knows they may have been bluffing.

The rest of the eastern bloc did not have a literal wall but a wall of military and threat of death, if caught, for leaving.

Mexico does not care if people come here to work most send a lot of money back for there families. This benefits their country more then keeping them there. A lot of these families live a middle class life in mexico from working here. rather nice for them.

I would be careful about accusing business of knowingly hiring illegals. many times they have identification and when you fill out the proper paper work and turn it in that is all you can do. sometimes they come back as invalid and other times they are valid but still the person is illegal. Though there are defiantely companies who knowingly hire illegals and help them to get away with it and they should be shut down and those in charge should serve a proper sentence for breaking the law.

I do not have a problem with a guest worker program I just think that if they are already here illegally then we need to send them back and allow only those who do things the legal way.

we should not criticize the government for doing something right. Like making a raid of a company who was hiring illegals. I would like to see more of it and quickly.

Posted by: Randall Jeremiah at May 18, 2006 4:48 PM
Comment #149273

I say… round up the illegal alians and send them to Iraq to replace our troops. After a few dozen transports, not so many illegals will WANT to come here. Two problems solved.

Posted by: Don at May 18, 2006 5:17 PM
Comment #149275

Randall, I agree that I would like to see the government do more raids. I just wonder why in the 25 years I’ve been in the construction business I’ve only seen one raid, back in the late 70’s.

I think MOST employers know who the illegals are. I’ve been told by several about the conflicting views between Hondurans and Mexicans. If you simply ask, most will tell you where they are from. A big clue is that they don’t speak English at all or very little.

I do have a problem with a guest worker program, because it helps to confuse and hide the illegals. Something must, however, be done to accomodate those that have lived here for years while we have turned a blind eye. They ARE Human beings just trying to survive.

A much better ID system than Social Security needs to be developed.

I agree with Rob that an Iron Curtain does nothing but make us look racist. We aren’t building one across Canada. Unless we’re willing to mount submachine gun turrets and shoot to kill, it will stop nothing. The underground railroad will simply shift to avoid the secure areas. There is too much traffic entering this country to sustain us, to stop all avenues for the illegals. I’m simply being realistic when I say a wall will not work, and is an enormous waste of money to falsely placate voters.

The key is the corporations that profit from this illegal trade.

Posted by: gergle at May 18, 2006 5:45 PM
Comment #149278

Perhaps the government needs more help locating employers who knowingly hire illegals.

Perhaps a website where the names of companies who knowingly violate the laws can be posted.

Posted by: jlw at May 18, 2006 6:05 PM
Comment #149281


I agree that these folks are human. The illegals knew they were coming into this country illegally. I do not think we should round them up and put them in jail. I think that they should be sent back. Then if they want to come over they can do it legally. I have no problem with imigration. I dont think the guest worker program will hide illegals if we have a proper system in place for id and such.

On this issue i think that we will need to just enforce our already existing laws and we should be just fine.

This being said I think you are incorrect about the wall. It should work well but it is only a piece of the pie. When you add electronic survelience and man power then there is a more comprehensive approach and it will dwindle to near stop. I do not think it will ever stop but we can greatly lessen it.

Posted by: Randall Jeremiah at May 18, 2006 6:15 PM
Comment #149283


“Perhaps a website where the names of companies who knowingly violate the laws can be posted.”

That won’t go over well and will leave folks open for abuse.


“I agree with Rob that an Iron Curtain does nothing but make us look racist. We aren’t building one across Canada. Unless we’re willing to mount submachine gun turrets and shoot to kill, it will stop nothing. The underground railroad will simply shift to avoid the secure areas. There is too much traffic entering this country to sustain us, to stop all avenues for the illegals. I’m simply being realistic when I say a wall will not work, and is an enormous waste of money to falsely placate voters.”

I’ve been saying it for months and get shouted down every time. Those that yell the loudest will win this one I’m afraid.

Posted by: Rocky at May 18, 2006 6:17 PM
Comment #149306

The foundation piece is so full of holes (to be nice, I could say full of something else) as laughable. The southwestern states were a part of Spanish Mexico LONG before other europeans got to the new world at all. There are “Mexican” families all through the south-west that have been in their home longer than the USA has been a country, longer than these lands had anything other than “Mexicans” and American Indians. My wife’s stepfather’s family was part of Cortez’s force and were given the land that they live on in New Mexico as a land grant by the Spanish Crown.

Also, if you are Irish Catholic, the odds are pretty good that you are descended fron illegal immegrants. It was typical during the years during and after the Irish potato famine that Irish trying to enter the USA legally had to show possession of what was at that time an enormous sum of money. Canada how ever could not keep the Irish out so the Irish came ashore in Canada and went west to the frontier and snuck across the border. They were hated by the “Good white Folk” just as much as the blacks are just beginning to get over, and people like you are hating the “Mexicans”. Sayings like “Dogs and Irish keep off the grass”, Notre Dame was the only college that would let them in and then only because they were “natural athletes”

History continues to repeat itself.

Posted by: Richard at May 18, 2006 8:11 PM
Comment #149313
I agree with Rob that an Iron Curtain does nothing but make us look racist.

Someone agrees with me? Wow… I haven’t seen that in a while!

Posted by: Rob Cottrell at May 18, 2006 8:47 PM
Comment #149325

If the “illegal immigrants” that everyone is so afraid of were Caucasian and spoke perfect English, this topic wouldn’t exist.

Posted by: ElliottBay at May 18, 2006 9:56 PM
Comment #149356

jcmeredith is right. The Iron curtain was put up to keep people in, not out.
And yeah I miss it. We didn’t have as many commies running all over the world as we do now. ha!
The wall I’m for building will help keep criminals out of the US. And once they cross the border illegally they’re criminals.

Posted by: Ron Brown at May 18, 2006 11:34 PM
Comment #149360

Oooohhh. The implied threat of racism! I suppose this is where my white guilt makes me fold like a tent? WRONG! I ain’t guilty. And I don’t even speak “perfect english”. I think the English do, and if they were here illegally, I’d have a problem with that as well.

Don’t make the mistake of thinking I share your guilt, because I don’t. I never owned slaves, I never made anyone drink out of a different water fountain, and I never had my foot on anyone’s neck. I don’t even blame the Mexicans for treating my ancestors as second class citizens. Hell, we even gave them a spot at Six Flags over Texas!

Posted by: David C. at May 18, 2006 11:45 PM
Comment #149361

Ron Brown,

once they cross the border illegally they’re criminals
Wrong. In this country nobody is a criminal until they have been convicted of a crime in a court of law. Unless, of course, you don’t believe in the constitution.

Posted by: ElliottBay at May 18, 2006 11:46 PM
Comment #149366

That “don’t put up a fence, help your neighbor clean up his yard instead” sounds nice, but…WE ALREADY DO THAT! We give them and half the other idiot countries in the world BILLIONS OF DOLLARS. We give Mexico special access to our markets, the “El Dorado” of consumer markets in the world mind you. We buy damn near everything they make. Now we even take all their poor and let them send BILLIONS more dollars home so the Mexican Billionaire club can remain intact, and finally when we decide to simply stand up for ourselves, they and half the socialists in America get pissed! Why don’t you move there? Of course you’ll have to rent, FOREIGNERS CAN’T OWN MORE THAN 51% OF A PROPERTY IN MEXICO. You’ll need to learn Spanish, because THEY ONLY SPEAK SPANISH TO DO BUSINESS IN MEXICO. And don’t go near the southern border, IT’S CRAWLING WITH THE MEXICAN MILITARY TO KEEP THE SOUTH AND CENTRAL AMERICANS OUT.

One more thing, if you are going to deny being a socialist, try not to spout the East German Communist Party line while doing it. The wall was built to keep “outside influences out”! That’s rich! If your freaking system is so great, why are people dying to get out?

Posted by: David C. at May 19, 2006 12:02 AM
Comment #149367

Wrong, They’re a criminal as soon as they break the law. When they’ve been tried and convicted they become a convicted criminal. Either way they’re criminals.
The Constitution say they are presumed innocent until proven guilty. And even if they aren’t proven guilty that doesn’t mean they aren’t criminals.

Posted by: Ron Brown at May 19, 2006 12:05 AM
Comment #149370

That’s it, avoid the issue like the Senators are doing. Keep blaming Bush guys, that’ll show everyone what kind of leaders you (really) are. Bush took the middle ground on this issue, one I’m not in favor of by the way, and yet you leaders just crap all over him (as usual) and not the idiot Senators that (actually) denied a bill to “secure the border first”!! But, no… It’s Bush’s fault. Way to go leaders!!!

Posted by: rahdigly at May 19, 2006 12:39 AM
Comment #149374

A person is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Outside the court one can call someone a criminal even before he is charged and be correct.

Those who oppose the wall on the border should look around their own neighborhood. How many homes have walls or fences? And for what? That is only in your neighborhood. Now let us expand that concept to our national neighborhood. A wall is necessary. If it appears to be racist to some let them have their opinion. The fact is that it is for our own security.

Another fact that needs to be investigated is how many Islamic persons are there along the border in Mexico. The numbers will surprise you. The amount is into a six figure.

Vicente Fox’s initials must mean Very Fraudulent.

And lastly, the hypocrite Mexican “leadership” should expect us to apply the same kind of treatment to those Americans who must go to Mexico to work. An American must jump through hoops of fire, delays, and many other problems for the American who is there on orders of their company. Documents cannot be copies, they must be the actual documents is one good example. Maybe a national one day boycott of illegal immigrants would be a good idea.

Posted by: tomh at May 19, 2006 1:13 AM
Comment #149382


The United States REQUIRES Mexico to implement tough laws against US Citizens wanting to go there. Something about Tax Evasion and Escape from Prosecution stuff.

Posted by: Aldous at May 19, 2006 3:59 AM
Comment #149392

Randall, how do you propose transporting 12 million people across the border? Forced March? Cattle Cars? How very Nazi of you.

We have laws about hiring illegals, minimum wage laws and conspiracy to evade laws now. Why don’t you and others see the root of the problem is the illegal subversion of our economy for profit? Why do you think they come here? As long as that exists they will continue to come, they stay because it’s expensive and dangerous to move back and forth. A guest worker program, if complying with wage and safety laws, will be rejected by the businesses who profit by breaking the law now. What will discourage them from continuing to do so? If it doesn’t comply with wage law, then what will keep this from completely deflating wages and further destroying our economy for the profit of a few?

You’re allowing yourself to be distracted from the real problem here. It is the criminal conduct of corporations who have bought out both parties.

Posted by: gergle at May 19, 2006 7:18 AM
Comment #149395


A wall is not a racist idea even if it is intended only to keep out hispanics. It is just a waste of money. Until we control the demand (the criminal use of illegal labor to undermine the employment market and hold it below market price) their will be an endless supply. Just like drugs.

Going after the criminal employers of what amounts to modern day slave labor is what is needed to solve this problem. That will not occur while we allow criminal businesses to buy political influence in both parties.

I would like to see where you got the figure of millions of Islamics located on the border of Mexico. That is, unless you pulled it out of some part of your anatomy that would disgust most.

I live in Houston. We have thousands of Islamics here, I don’t fear them. They can easily hop over my backyard fence, and yet they still haven’t. I don’t fear the Christians either, well, most of them. Some of them scare the crap out of me.

Posted by: gergle at May 19, 2006 7:32 AM
Comment #149414

Good walls make GREAT neighbors…just ask the Palestinians and Israelis! It’s really “cemented” their friendship and admiration for each other…

Posted by: Lynne at May 19, 2006 9:20 AM
Comment #149424

David C.,

One more thing, if you are going to deny being a socialist, try not to spout the East German Communist Party line while doing it. The wall was built to keep “outside influences out”! That’s rich! If your freaking system is so great, why are people dying to get out?

MY system??? WTF??? Taking the time to understand the Communist strategy does NOT equate to “spouting the party line”. Your logic is broken, dude. Try again.

The Iron Curtain was indeed built to keep outside influences out. Totalitarianism relies on keeping the people ignorant of the truth. The Soviets and their puppets in Eastern Europe did just that. They controlled the media, entertainment, literature, etc., all in order to keep the people misinformed and impotent.

In order to do that, the most important step they needed was to separate their people from the people in the West. The more the people interacted, the more Western philosophies (like free elections, democracy, capitalism, human rights, and so on) would “contaminate” their society. Without that contamination, the Soviets were free to engage their propaganda engine to placate the people.

Here’s a link to some old Soviet propaganda posters:

Click on each pic for a full image and translation of each poster.

This type of propaganda REQUIRED a cultural separation from the West. That wasn’t possible without the Iron Curtain.

Whenever someone brings up language difference in a debate about the Mexican border (as you did, David C.), it implies to me that this border-fence is really more about a cultural separation than it is national security.

Oh, and before you call me a Socialist again for taking the time to read a f***ing history book, David C., let me go on the record here — I do NOT approve of ANY Soviet propaganda techniques. I have taken the time to learn about them and understand them so that I can AVOID them in the future. If you think that makes me a Socialist, then you need to consider taking a few logic courses at your nearest community college.


If you’re concerned about the “Islamic persons”, then you need to build walls around several communities IN the United States, too.

This whole “open border = gateway for terrorists” argument loses all credibility if you don’t include a CANADIAN border fence in your proposal.

Posted by: Rob Cottrell at May 19, 2006 9:57 AM
Comment #149433

This is just another one of those things the Dems will be ‘for’ before they were ‘against it’.

Posted by: pige at May 19, 2006 11:19 AM
Comment #149438

If the “illegal immigrants” that everyone is so afraid of were Caucasian and spoke perfect English, this topic wouldn’t exist.

Posted by: ElliottBay at May 18, 2006 09:56 PM

Wrong again buddy. If we were having this problem with Canada I would be for a wall there too.
Illegal immigrants are illegal immigrants, and I don’t like illegal immigrants regardless of the color of their skin or the language they speak.

Posted by: Ron Brown at May 19, 2006 11:44 AM
Comment #149441

I heard on the radio this morning that Congress has pass a resolution making English the official language of the United States. I’m tearing down all my Govt issued multilanguage posters.
Of course the American Communist Lawyers Union will take this to that Communist court out there in San Francisco and get it thrown out.

Posted by: Ron Brown at May 19, 2006 11:51 AM
Comment #149450

D.O.D. says @ 245,000 National Guard troops currently on American Soil. 6,000 going to the border states. This would be the same math Ted uses to keep track of his liquor. “What? Only 50 cases of scotch left? My god, my booze stash is stretched too thin!!!” The border? As much as I disliked the Marine bashing attitude of the movie, I think Jack Nicholson said it best. “You WANT me on that wall, you NEED me on that wall!!!” Don’t protect your home, soon enough you have people breaking in taking your money or valuables, maybe your life. It’s been a long time since the days of folks leaving the doors of their houses unlocked, should our borders be any different? Or do some of you out there just open your doors and let any and all comers in to wander around?

Posted by: JR at May 19, 2006 12:35 PM
Comment #149454

English speaking caucasians? They would be the group most likely to have to sneak in. The liberals have so skewed the immigration process western europeans or people of western european descent automatically go to the back of the line. Heaven forbid any more of those ‘nasty’ caucasians get in.

Posted by: pige at May 19, 2006 12:50 PM
Comment #149473

Hey Cottrell,

Your logic is twisted. Just apologize for making an insulting analogy and be done with it.

In your lame attempt to bolster your argument, you only make yourself look worse.

To call our border security fence an “Iron Curtain” is to EQUATE the values and policies of the US and the Soviet commissars (your old buddies).

THEY were keeping influence out all right - freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, freedom of assembly, etc etc.

WE are trying to keep out “influences” that:

1) have FLOODED our nation with excess labor that has depressed wages for ALL entry-level job seekers

2) have closed emergency rooms due to unpaid bills and stuck taxpayers with the bill for billions in healthcare costs.

3) have put thousands of unregistered, uninsured vehicles on our streets

4) have put millions of kids who can’t speak English in our schools

5) have introduced to our cities additional gangs dealing drugs and committing violent crimes.

6) have landed hundreds of thousands of convicts in our prisons nationwide

Yep! THERE is a real fair comparison.

USA = USSR in your twisted simple mind simply because WE want to do something to protect our nation from the mess your good friends have made in Mexico.

Rob, if you continue to think our southern border security fences = the Iron Curtain, you are an illogical fool. You talk about logic the way a drunk talks about sobriety.

Posted by: jcmeredith at May 19, 2006 1:59 PM
Comment #149489


I know plenty of Democrats, Republicans, and Independents who are in favor of a heavily-armed border-fence with Mexico. I also know plenty of Democrats, Republicans, and Independents who are opposed to such a border fence. As such, I’d say it’s impossible to determine someone’s Left/Right leanings based solely upon their stance on this one issue. Yes, somehow, you seem confident that I’m a Socialist simply because I don’t want a border fence. You’ve referred to the Soviets as my “old buddies”, “comrades”, or people “who no doubt occupied a special place in Rob’s heart”. Show me ONE quote from ANYTHING that I’ve said that indicates that I’m anti-capitalist, anti-free-market, anti-freedom-of-speech, pro-Soviet, pro-totalitarianism, etc. Heck, I’m the one arguing AGAINST deploying military troops for domestic purposes… how much more anti-Soviet can you get??

No, jcmeredith, I believe you are the one who owes me an apology.

Posted by: Rob Cottrell at May 19, 2006 2:31 PM
Comment #149501

Rob Cottrell -

Based on your meandering missives above, you have revealed enough about yourself to state the following:

SINCE 60% PLUS of the American people CLEARLY want a SECURE fence protecting our southern border…

That leaves 40% who don’t want a border fence and they all fit in at least one of the following categories:

1) Democrat Party precinct captains
2) Democratic Party elected officals
3) Aspiring Democratic Party candidates
4) Reconquista/Return to AZTLAN activists
5) Marxist apologists/A.N.S.W.E.R. nutters
6) American drug dealers
7) American drug users
8) Immigration attorneys
9) Welfare bureaucrats
10) Illegal Employers of Illegal Workers
11) Lame Still-live-at-home-with-Mom FOOLS

Given your neutered logic, you are a candidate for #1, #7, either #8 or #9, and certainly #11

Posted by: jcmeredith at May 19, 2006 3:28 PM
Comment #149518


Which of those 11 categories is Bush in? He’s had 6 years now to build one, and he hasn’t lifted a finger to do so until it became a hot-button election topic.

As for me, I don’t fall into any of those 11 categories. I’m not a Democrat, Marxist, drug user/dealer, attorney, bureaucrat, or illegal alien. I have no affiliation with reconquista activists or A.N.S.W.E.R. activists. And I don’t live with my mother.

So, again, your logic is flawed. Honestly, are you even trying anymore?

Posted by: Rob Cottrell at May 19, 2006 3:56 PM
Comment #149525

This is exactly what I am talking about:

If ordering more troops into Anbar means we do not have an adequate number of troops to secure our borders, then while we fight for Anbar we chance losing Arizona.

Posted by: Mike Tate at May 19, 2006 4:11 PM
Comment #149533

If the Dems get there way on this one, document fraud, identity theft etc. will no longer be a felony IF you entered this country illegaly. Hmmm. We will also get to ‘enjoy’ the weight of another 12 million illegals drawing social security from an already empty fund. Not to mention the increased costs to medicare etc. Next up, how you too can sneak across the border, retire and draw the maximum benefit because you didn’t have the opportunity to pay into the system your entire working life.

Posted by: pige at May 19, 2006 4:26 PM
Comment #149535


At least Bush has finally come around and is standing up for a secure border.

Meanwhile you smeared it as the “Iron Curtain”

You foolishly oppose what is clearly in our nation’s best interests.

By the way, when exchanging posts with you, “trying” is scarcely required.

In a match of wits, you arrive unarmed.

Posted by: jcmeredith at May 19, 2006 4:33 PM
Comment #149563


There have been a number of fences/walls/battlements erected for security reasons throughout history.

The most famous being the Great Wall of China, The Iron Curtain, and the Maginot Line. I’m not going to include the Israeli wall because it has no history yet.

The Maginot Line while it wasn’t really a wall, it was great idea, it just wasn’t very effective.

The Great Wall of China, also named the worlds longest cemetery, took the longest to build, was built by virtual slaves, looks really impressive, also only sort of effective, and a real bitch to maintain.

The most effective of the three was, in fact, The Iron Curtain, mainly because the totalitarian Soviet backed troops had orders to kill on sight.

I have had many discussions on Watchblog with various people that believe, like you, that the fence will be an effective deterrent.

D.A.N will cite you chapter and verse on the economical benefits.

I am more inclined to agree with Rob. I think that it will lend itself, like a fence around your property, to a false sense of security.

If this fence is built the “American” way, at low bid and on the cheap, it will be a useless boondoggle that we will abandon maintaining within ten years.

You don’t seem to understand that, like your home fence and locked door analogy, those that really want to get in, and, by the way, those are the folks we really don’t want in, won’t be deterred by a fence at all.

Until we truly prosecute ALL employers that hire the illegals, fence or not, the illegals will just figure some other way to get in. Just as they always have in the past.

Posted by: Rocky at May 19, 2006 6:32 PM
Comment #149721


Well said!


If I thought it was in our nation’s best interest to build one, I’d support it. But I don’t, so I don’t.

And yes, I “smeared” your idea by relating it to the Iron Curtain. And, in response, you “smeared” me by relating me to the Soviets.

In other words, I critiqued the message, and you critiqued the messenger (see WatchBlog motto).

What’s worse, you related me to the Soviets despite having no valid logical reason to do so. I clearly, in my very first post on this thread, indicated that I am opposed to building an Iron Curtain. The Soviets obviously WEREN’T opposed to building one, since they actually did build one. Yet, from my statement of opposition to an Iron Curtain, you concluded that I’m a Soviet (or just like them). A > B, therefore A = B?

Since I obviously can’t grasp your superior intellect (me being dim-witted and all), could you kindly explain how you came to that conclusion?

Posted by: Rob Cottrell at May 20, 2006 10:34 AM
Comment #149844

Rob and Rocky, Im glad to see at least a couple of posters here see past the political flag waving and race baiting, to the very real money stealing issue behind this election year voter splitting fraud being committed by both parties.

It’s much easier to get inflamed about those job stealing, welfare abusing mexicans, than to see Walmart or Uncle ED’s lawn service and concrete patios as being un-american or stealing from you.

Posted by: gergle at May 21, 2006 4:26 AM
Comment #150407


two things and then I am done with your pathetic argument.

1) your dull wit is perfectly illustrated by your omission of the Israeli security fence. The fence with the best record. The fence that has dramatically reduced the number of killings of Israeli people without completely choking off commercial traffic between Israel and the West Bank.

2) Your a = b crap: I did not base my argument on who DOES or does NOT believe in building fences. I based my argument on your slimy statement that the proposed American security border on our southern Mexican border would be another “Iron Curtain.”

Stop gazing at those Soviet proganda posters and focus on the facts (which you have failed to refute with your neuter logic)…

the Iron Curtain was designed to KEEP PEOPLE FROM LEAVING ! And the “influences” (your word) that the Soviets wanted to keep out? Oh yes: freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion, freedom to bear arms, etc. etc. etc.

Our security fence will keep out those people who:

1) steal jobs
2) depress wages for all entry-level workers in the U.S.
3) cause hospitals and emergency rooms to go broke
4) sell drugs on our streets
5) cost U.S. taxpayers billions in law enforcement, welfare and education costs

etc etc etc.

Only a moron would not publicly admit the difference.

There is no way to honestly compare the Iron Curtain with our Mexican border fence. Just face it - your “Iron Curtain” statement was just plain stupid. Good fences make good neighbors. If we are going to have a workable guest worker program with a corrupt neighbor like Mexico, we need a very, very good fence.

I am done posting on this subject. You are free to continue to make a fool of yourself if you wish.

Posted by: jcmeredith at May 22, 2006 10:47 PM
Comment #187739

Well, I’ve read pretty much everyone’s comments and the border topic is well deserving in discussing.Yes we have many people coming to the US and yes it is extreme. Yet, the problem is more than a security issue it is causing racial tension and division in our country among different classes of people.

This situation needs a plan not a war!

If you have ever lived near the border or have mexican friends, their views may be totally different from the Anglo race.

I know everyone keeps saying it’s not racial yet the majority of comments are coming from the Anglo Americans. This is the dangerous part that could ignite so much fuel that would destroy communication among those Americans who are legal and of Mexican decent.

My question is if the conversations of white america focuses mainly upon the brown people and removing them.

Then will the democrats pick the American Mexican votes?

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