What 'Merican Model?

Disbelievers of reality like to point out that the reason the United States has not had a terrorist attack by Muslim immigrants, like in Europe, is because of “the assimilationist model that saves America.”

President Bush enjoys justifying the "liberation" of Iraq and Afghanistan with the conclusion that "we're defeating the enemy there so we won't have to fight them here." The problem is the enemy is here.

  • University of South Florida professor Sami Al-Arian "admits being a member of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and helping others associated with the terrorist group -- including his deported brother-in-law Mazen Al-Najjar -- in immigration matters and lying to conceal their ties."
  • Georgia Tech student Syed Ahmed "has been indicted for material support of terrorism."
  • Raed Mansour Albanna, who immigrated to the U.S., was the most "unlikely candidate" for a suicide car bomber in Iraq.
  • Ali R. Warrayat Home Depot blasted Arabic music before crashing through the front doors of Home Depot. Warrayat "expertly navigated the aisles and headed straight for the paint department, slamming his car into the flammable goods." A Quran and Palestinian flag were found in the trunk of his car.

Iran recently threatened to "strike at British and American targets if the nation’s nuclear sites are attacked" with over "40,000 trained suicide bombers." If Iranian officials are not talking big for once, we will soon discover that thousands of Muslims living amongst us could prove false that any "assimilationist model" exist.

Posted by Mike Tate at April 30, 2006 8:26 PM
Comments
Comment #144379

Mike Tate is right. What we should do is put every Muslim in America in Internment Camps for however long the War in Terror takes. We can always apologize for it 50 years later if we’re forced to.

Internment Camps or Bantustans is what worked for South Africa and Israel. We should follow their example. Afterall, Black Africans and Palestinians are sub-human anyway. There is no reason Muslims could not be treated in a similar fashion.

Posted by: Aldous at April 30, 2006 8:54 PM
Comment #144382

Mike

The U.S. does not have an assimilation model. That is France. We have an integration model. It works better. While we have some Muslims in the U.S. who may cause trouble, most are well integrated. The average Muslim in the U.S. has an income higher than a native American (a person born in the U.S., not the politically correct term) and a better education.

Posted by: Jack at April 30, 2006 9:02 PM
Comment #144385

We have not been hit again! Is it because the wonderful George W. has preempted the attack? Is it because they have been so busy reducing our freedom and securing a future dictatorship by ignoring those little inconvenient laws that Osama and company just love it? Just what is responsible for this miracle?

Posted by: Hosea at April 30, 2006 9:14 PM
Comment #144386

Mike,
Ahhh…give it up for Mr. Tates everyone, another xenophobic rant from the right side.
America has always assimilated its immigrants, first it was the Germans, then the Irish and Chinese, and now the Muslims and Mexicans.
It’s the same song played over and over, yet you seem to imply that all muslims should be looked after with a wary eye, just because of they believe in the same religion that the radical Islamic terrorist do.
Maybe somebody hasn’t told you yet, but NOT ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS.

Posted by: greenstuff at April 30, 2006 9:17 PM
Comment #144391

greenstuff, Mr. Tate did not make the statements you ascribe to his article. Try sticking to some factual exchange, it will make your comments more credible.

The fact that FBI has interdicted potential plots, and captured al-Queda linked American residents, is a testament to the fact that the FBI and Border Patrols are at the business of terrorists to the exclusion of apprehending and returning illegal immigrants. One of the reasons the illegal immigrant problem has worsened in recent years.

My critique is, if we haven’t the manpower for dealing with illegal immigration because they are mostly be used to surveil and find terrorists, then where the hell is the wall that will deter 90% or more of the illegal immigrants from ever getting across in the first place?

Posted by: David R. Remer at April 30, 2006 9:46 PM
Comment #144396

The reason we have so few problems with immigrants here is that we let them have a stake in our country. Additionally, we don’t have formal requirements in our country that a person gives up their culture entirely. Respect the law and your neighbor, and we’ll get along fine.

America isn’t about a language, an ethnic commonality, a religion, or anything else. It is about the people deciding what all these will be. There are no laws here prohibiting the use of a language, the practice of a religion, or mandating inequal treatment on account of race or tribe.

Because of all this, by the nature of societies, the lines of old loyalty blur, and we see the birth of America’s rich culture, which borrows from the world, which in turn borrows from us.

Mike Tate’s paranoia ill-becomes America. We not only should do better than this, we are better than this. Let our law enforcement an espionage agents do their jobs. We don’t need to run screaming to congress or the president to tighten the screws on the police state.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at April 30, 2006 10:20 PM
Comment #144399

I don’t know how many Muslims we have in the US, but not all can be terrorist. Some are just too young.
Seriously, I don’t think that most the Muslims in this country are all that interested in biting the hand that feeds them. Like Jack said, most of them have higher incomes and are better educated than most native Americans. They also may not take their religion all that serious.
It just seems that the Muslims here are of a different type than those over in the Mideast.

Posted by: Ron Brown at April 30, 2006 10:30 PM
Comment #144406

Stephen change the verb have to had regarding few problems with immigrants. As of 12 hours from now, the problems with immigrants is goint to grow geometrically.

All kinds of common wisdoms are going to kick in over the next couple days:

“Give the legals an inch, and the illegals will take a mile”

What is the only country in the world that will allow foreign nationals to invade their country illegally further give them police protection to shut down our citizens schools, business, sidewalks and roadways, motels, restaurants and many other sectors of Monday commerce and trade? Give you one guess: and it should not be happening here either!

I say card them, and if they don’t have two pieces of valid ID, one with a picture, then, they are to be removed or prevented demonstration rights reserved under our Constitution for those who live here legally.

Was a time we could be confident that demonstrations in America were made up almost exclusively of Americans exercising their citizen rights. Those days end in just a few hours, as some will call for yet another ‘necessary’ check on our historical freedoms by proposing laws that stipulate demonstrators must be in posession of proof of legal status, or face arrest and deportation if unable to produce such proof to the court.

Posted by: David R. Remer at April 30, 2006 11:07 PM
Comment #144413

I plan to continue business as usual tomorrow. If anyone wants to try to shut me down for some stupid protest they’re going be told to leave. If they refuse they are going to meet with the business end of a .44 Mag.
I have 3 Mexicans working for me over at the factory. Two are very good workers. The only reason the 3rd has been fired yet is because someone hasn’t done their job. I reckon I’ll have to do it for them.
I’ve told them and the rest of my employees that they can protest anything they want, all they want, before and after work. If they miss work tomorrow they better be sick with a doctors note or dead with a death certificate or they can not bother to come in Tuesday either.

Posted by: Ron Brown at April 30, 2006 11:44 PM
Comment #144414

Since when did the WatchBlog Managing Editor start posting opinions? I always thought that thing was a program application of some sort. Is there a real person in that costume?

Posted by: Aldous at April 30, 2006 11:45 PM
Comment #144422

Just joking, ofcourse…

Posted by: Aldous at May 1, 2006 12:03 AM
Comment #144424

Aldous,

When I read his posts I keep hearing Darth Vader’s voice.

Posted by: Rocky at May 1, 2006 12:10 AM
Comment #144444

That’s why this war was for the hearts and minds of Arabs, and, well… we lost it by stupidly torturing them and not giving them an inkling of why our way is the more moral and humane way. Put them in internment camps??? Sure, go ahead, if you want to have them hate you forever. The whole challenge here was to show them the American democratic way was something worth emulating. I had no doubt we would succeed, until Bush chose to do his damndest to show them we are just like every other dictator they have known.

Posted by: Max at May 1, 2006 1:54 AM
Comment #144463

Gee, that’s a big jamberee you’ll are planning! There are a jillion muslems of various sorts in the US now. Most of them do things and their will significant social and economic disruptions when they have to abandon their lives and jobs. There is also the fact that there is no evidence against them individually.

I could get behind targeted investigation and action against muslim concentrations who advocate anti-western sentiment and actions. There are several in the Detroit area that I have heard to be the place of worship for multiple terrorists or terrorist suspects held for trial. London has a similar problem with the radical mosque that mentored Richard Reed and Mausouwi. It would also be prudent to review the backgrounds of all foreign nationals residing in the US concentrating on those who meet the statistical models we’ve developed regarding terrorists. I could also support significantly reducing the number of visas issued based on national origin and personal background factors. But, these actions are not tantamount to applying sanctions merely because of religious affiliation which you are proposing.

Finally, even if I supported internment for muslims in general, which I don’t, it is not feasible to confine unproven dissidents for the duration of the War on Terror. The war on terror will have no treaty or surrender to mark the end of the conflict. There have and will always be conflict between terrorist elements and governments. The frequency and intensity of the attacks will subside, but never completely stop, so how would you know when to release people. We are going to run into that problem already at Gitmo, but the prisoners there were confined based upon individual allegations of involvement in terrorist or acts of war against the western forces. So that’s a horse of a different color in my eyes.

Posted by: goodkingned at May 1, 2006 4:49 AM
Comment #144466

Whoops! I misread the internment comment as part of the Mike’s article also. Sorry.

Posted by: goodkingned at May 1, 2006 5:26 AM
Comment #144477

goodkingned-
The whole problem with the War on Terror, as Bush defines it, is that this is no war. A war has a beginning, a middle and an end. This aimless sensibility is part of the reason we’re still stuck in Iraq with so many soldiers. Fact of the matter is, we do ourselves few favors by making body counts and checklists of members our measure of our success.

You see, that treats the symptoms and not the disease. The disease is a complex mix of the shock of a culture brought violently (in more than one way) out of the past into an uncertain future, where it’s core values are challenged everyday. Making this all about a clash of civilizations, in fact, is problematic, because at it’s heart, the real conflict is not between them and us, but within themselves.

The key to unlocking this conflict is to give the Arabs and Muslims of the world equal standing, to bring their cooperation to the task of making their society modern. They must accept the change in their society if they are to end their violent reaction to it.

This overbearing approach has few virtues to it. The whole problem is that these people feel manipulated, bullied, subjugated. The terrorism is about returning the favor, putting the western world in the palm of its hand for a change. It’s no less pointless than our approach. We got to bring to the table a critical mass of moderates, a critical mass of folks who understanding that the terrorist violence is just provoking more violence and interference in return.

This is not a war, it’s a struggle. Against ourselves, and the temptation to rule over others in a way we would not accept ourselves, and against our terrorist enemies, whose bloodletting we must prevent on our shores, and reduce support for on theirs.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at May 1, 2006 8:19 AM
Comment #144503
I say card them, and if they don’t have two pieces of valid ID, one with a picture, then, they are to be removed or prevented demonstration rights reserved under our Constitution for those who live here legally.

Most of us have a photo ID…a driver’s license…so do illegal immigrants…a driver’s license is no proof of citizenship.

The only proof of citizenship most of us have is our birth certificate (no current photo!)…who carries that around?

How many citizens actually carry around anything that “proves” citizenship???

Maybe 0.25%????

Posted by: Lynne at May 1, 2006 10:55 AM
Comment #144545

Aldous, thanks for pointing that out. Correction made.

Posted by: David R. Remer at May 1, 2006 12:58 PM
Comment #144581

Lynne, I defy you to provide evidence that most illegal immigrants have this ID. Yes, many will, especially those who have been here for years. But, many, many more, won’t. Going to a driver’s license bureau is going to the halls of government, something many new illegals are nervous about doing.

Posted by: David R. Remer at May 1, 2006 2:56 PM
Comment #144593

The point of what I wrote: There is no American “assimilationist model” saving the United States from any potential terrorist attacks by Muslims born here. Especially, since we do not even mandate assimilation and integration anymore. Europe’s fate with Islam could be the same as ours.

Posted by: Mike Tate at May 1, 2006 3:51 PM
Comment #144599

David Remer:

If you would have read my post, you would know that I was pointing out that US citizens carry no documents that would prove that they are a citizen!

A drivers’ license proves nothing…except that you’ve passed a driving exam.

Posted by: Lynne at May 1, 2006 4:12 PM
Comment #144632

Lynne,

“If you would have read my post, you would know that I was pointing out that US citizens carry no documents that would prove that they are a citizen!

A drivers’ license proves nothing…except that you’ve passed a driving exam”

You don’t carry a Social Security card?

Posted by: Rocky at May 1, 2006 6:30 PM
Comment #144634

Lynne is not up to providing evidence for her rediculous claim that all illegal immigrants already have valid ID. Nuff said.

Posted by: David R. Remer at May 1, 2006 6:36 PM
Comment #144646

At least here in PA, to get one’s driving permit they need their birth certificate as part of the appliciation paperwork. So in theory a DL here can be used that way

Posted by: RHancheck at May 1, 2006 7:46 PM
Comment #144678

David Remer…I don’t like to call out people on blogs, but you can’t read!! You obviously didn’t read or failed to understand my post…so, I’ll post it here again…maybe you can find someone to explain it to you.

Most of us have a photo ID…a driver’s license…so do illegal immigrants…a driver’s license is no proof of citizenship.

The only proof of citizenship most of us have is our birth certificate (no current photo!)…who carries that around?

How many citizens actually carry around anything that proves their citizenship???

Maybe 0.25%????

Again…here’s the question…how many US citizens regularly carry anything on their person that proves they are a US citizen??? Can you answer that???

Posted by: Lynne at May 1, 2006 9:49 PM
Comment #144679

Rocky:

You don’t carry a Social Security card?

No, the federal government highly recommends that you never, ever carry your social security card…besides, it wouldn’t prove citizenship, anyway…do you know how easy it is to get a fake social security card??

Posted by: Lynne at May 1, 2006 9:51 PM
Comment #144681

David Remer:

Going to a driver’s license bureau is going to the halls of government, something many new illegals are nervous about doing.

Remember the big brou-ha-ha in California over California allowing illegal immigrants to obtain dirvers’ licenses?

And, it’s extremely easy to get a fake license…ask any underage college kid!

Posted by: Lynne at May 1, 2006 9:53 PM
Comment #144719

Stephen D:

You said … “The key to unlocking this conflict is to give the Arabs and Muslims of the world equal standing, to bring their cooperation to the task of making their society modern. They must accept the change in their society if they are to end their violent reaction to it.”

You might be interested in a book, The Pentagon’s New Map by Paul Barnett (sp) which examines the impact of economic indicators on the propensity of a given culture to engage in terrorism. Barnet’s view is that it is necessary to raise the per capita income in order to hook a country’s population into the global system. When there is sufficient economic prosperity, much of the angst and misery necessary to make terrorism a good deal for potential martrys is negated.

Under Barnet’s theory, the west is reducing the future risk of terrorism by investing capital in underdeveloped countries. This premise puts the US trade imbalance in a different light than is usual, so this theory is disputed by both friends of protectionism and fans anti-globalism. It’s an interesting read and CSpan runs a presentation by the author occaisionally.

So I do agree that these underdeveloped nations that are fomenting terrorism must accept cultural change, but I would also point out that their are fundamentalist elements which benefit from maintaining the status quo and resist modernization. This is made easier by the Islamic priniciple that the Koran is believed to have been dictated from god. The words are stipulated within the text itself to be unchangeable. The meanings attributed to these exact words have been modified through interpretations issued by religious leaders, but hardliners have a very credible basis for denying more moderate interpretations as sacraligious.

So while I agree ultimately that change must come from within muslim culture, I see no alternative but armed warfare to stop the efforts of those extremists who would rouse the rabble for their own purposes.

Posted by: goodkingned at May 2, 2006 12:31 AM
Comment #144784

Our current policies and strategies are making anenies with such sped and efficiency around the world that the one thing we can be sure of, is that we absolutely will be hit again. The more we behave like an empire, the sooner that is likely to happen. This warning has been offered to us over and over by various of the more responsible people in Washington. Sadly, it has not resulted in a shift in strategy or even an attempt to appear less like an empire by this administration. We are still posturing, threatening and undermining the U.N. rather than making an irrefutable case to the world body. Iran is a very good example of the same tactics being employed by this administration. Here we go again.

Brace yourselves, my fellow Americans. We have more to overcome.

RGF

Posted by: RGF at May 2, 2006 10:42 AM
Comment #144785

Uh…

‘anenies’ = enemies

please forgive the uncorrected typo.

Posted by: RGF at May 2, 2006 10:44 AM
Comment #144853

I thought when an immigrant comes to America to apply for citizenship they have to follow a curriculum. Learn English, to read, write, and when they are tested they are required to pledge their allegiance and loyalty to the United States of America.

Bi-lingual is great but English first. Why is it so wrong to profile a group that spawns terrorist more so than others? Not all Muslims are terrorist correct but all terrorist trying to kill us and destroy our way of life now are Muslims.

If you get a rabid dog on your block do you first check all the cats, rats, mice birds and snakes or do you gather all the dogs for quarantine and release them one at a time until you find the rabid dog? Would it be wrong to look into the dogs first to find the problem dog?

Just a question rocky nothing racist or ethnic about this question I hope.

Posted by: lm at May 2, 2006 3:48 PM
Comment #144898

Im,

Why is the constituion and its protections so alien to you? Why do you seem so perplexed by concepts like innocence until proven guilt?

I have endured amazing BS from white protestants in this country…would you allow me to round up all the Baptists?

I am stunned that you even had the gall to make the above comment. You really don’t see anything wrong with it, do you?

RGF

Posted by: RGF at May 2, 2006 6:01 PM
Comment #144933

Did Baptist hijack a plane i haven’t heard about?

round them up and get the ones who did it!

Posted by: lm at May 2, 2006 9:40 PM
Comment #144978

It was….

PEOPLE

…who did the hijacking!

LET’S ROUND ‘EM AAAALLLLLL UP!

Posted by: RGF at May 3, 2006 12:29 AM
Comment #145068

it was arab muslims who were here illegally. they might have applied for visas and legal then but let them expire making them here illegal.

get a life you tree hugging jerk.

Posted by: lm at May 3, 2006 12:30 PM
Comment #145078

They had student visas.

The point is still the same.

Tree hugging jerk? If that’s the best you can do, you have no leg to stand on. I wish IQ tests were required before voter registration.

RGF

Posted by: RGF at May 3, 2006 1:50 PM
Comment #145082

A general observation:

Why is it that when these new, Bushie conservatives are faced with better evidence or more complete analysis or have to accept that they are advocating for action that is morally unnacceptable and utterly contrary to American constituional law…

THEY REVERT TO NAME CALLING AND ABUSE?

That was rhetorical. I don’t need the obvious answer.

RGF

Posted by: RGF at May 3, 2006 2:09 PM
Comment #145094

I wish iq test were required to vote. I would still be voting but a lot of your friends would not. i am typing this real slow so you can read it.

Posted by: lm at May 3, 2006 3:03 PM
Comment #145099


Here it the fatal flaw. Perhaps 80% of the illegals in this country will NEVER assimilate. They do not want to be Americans and I can point to the Puerto Ricans as an example. The vast majority of the children of those illegals will never graduate high school unless just handed a diploma. I cite the graduation rates in L.A. and what then? Look at East Los Angeles and multiply that by 1000. Stopping pretending the B.S. sells - it doesn’t. Illegals drive down the payscale, send there money out of the country, use services faster than Americans, have serious immunological diseases ready for transfer, little or no intention of assimilation or integration. I laughed when I heard a commentator talk about how the illegals assimilate and used the fact the wear sports jerseys as his point. What I am sure of is his complete idiocy, they wear the jerseys in collaboration with their gang colors. And let me drain another 3 pointer, if these illegals are granted amnesty there will be a flood of tens upon tens of millions more eager to follow. ARE YOU PEOPLE INSANE? And to disway the calls of my xenophobia, I will trade, 1 for 1 any Mexican for a African, Chinese, Vietnamese, Russian or MUSLIM.
P.S. deport the ricans with them.

Posted by: Armand at May 3, 2006 3:27 PM
Comment #145105

Im,

IQ tests aside, how did you make it out of remedial high school government and get a diploma?

Posted by: RGF at May 3, 2006 3:46 PM
Comment #145109

Armand,

whose complete idiocy?
…Puerto Ricans ARE Americans!!!!!

Again, I see someone offering the idea that we should take action with respect to ALL immigration based on statistics. It’s INSANE that so few are catching n that this is not even possible much less legal or acceptable in any way. We really have dropped the ball on education in this country.

As far as the 80% who, YOU CLAIM, don’t assimilate? poppycock! There’s no doubt in my mind that there is no lack of DESIRE on there part.

Why is nobody in countless blogs on this issue considering the VALUE we GAIN from them?

One of the larges homebuilders in this country has been systematically STEALING the labor of the undocumented workers they employ by calling in INS rather than paying them. How many out there on this blog bought a house in the last
10-15 years?

What about the American owned maquiladoras and the exploitation of their workforce that continues to this day? How many out there have bought auto parts recently? …or any other small manufactured item? The same stuff is starting to happen in Asia and Indonesia now that they are even cheaper labor markets than Mexico.

What about the rather nefarious means by which we, as a nation, have exerted immense pressure to keep Mexico from expanding economically?
The Bucareli agreement, our dealings with drilling and exploring oil in Mexico which ultimately resulted in the creation of Pemex, etc., etc.

I absolutely CANNOT believe you brought up the disease issue…do have any idea how much polution we dump on Mexico through our contact in the Gulf, Rio Grande, air, etc.?

You are not just in the dark, Armand. You are there willingly. YOu chose to be there out of what I can only fathom is intense selfishness and lack of understanding.

OUR prosperity and stability is CONNECTED to OUR NEIGHBORS. Now, we can either exploit them as we have done, or we can accept the this fact and work together in a way the helps us all and stabilizes the whole region.

RGF


Posted by: RGF at May 3, 2006 4:06 PM
Comment #145116

Ok RGF, eye will have to plead guilty. i never been to school for government. i am a product of my invironment and cannot help it. i have a defect i was born this way and dont know why you are so mean spirited about my condition. the 8th grade was three of my happiest years in school. i am sorry am not up to your standards as you are the beautiful people i am shure.

i am sorry for the tree hugging jerk remark. it was uncalled for. i should not presume your sexual preference. don’t ask don’t tell.

you are right on armad. i will say once again i am not against immigration just illegal immigration. sorry rfg is i misspelled any words as i did not take any remidial spelling classes.

Posted by: lm at May 3, 2006 4:26 PM
Comment #145118

armad, did you notice that when you made RFG mad his mojado came out in his typing?

Posted by: lm at May 3, 2006 4:30 PM
Comment #145119

Your heartfelt and sincere apology is accepted.

Posted by: RGF at May 3, 2006 4:39 PM
Comment #145126

can we all be friends now and pretend that Illegal Immigrants do not under cut wages and put legal workers out of business. that they can do so because they have no expenses as they ride the entitlement hand out all expenses paid.

RFG i agree that some businesses exploit them and they should be shut down and employers put in prison. they are as guilty of the social welfare problem as the ones getting the handouts.

I am sure some of our hollywood types have sweat shops right in our country exploiting illegal immigrants while demanding something be done to reward this criminal behavior.

it still does not give them the right to demand rights afforded only citizens.

you make a good argument if you were conversing with someone who did not know first hand what is happening.

I experienced first hand farmers exploiting both sides of the handout system. subsidies for crops even when they did not produce and cheap illegal labor to further enhance profits.


Posted by: lm at May 3, 2006 4:55 PM
Comment #145128

Im,

I have plenty of FIRST hand experience working with the very people we are talking about.

Further, the American owned maquiladoras I was referring to are on THAT side of the border.

We have done much to create the disparity between our level of prosperity and Mexico’s.
We are only reaping what we have sewn.

But, we have a choice:
WE can either handle the situation in a way that is responsible and is actually a solution for bringing prosperity and stability to the whole region….
OR we can continue the same pattern of exploitation and the disparity will grow, their desire to get here will become more accute, and we ultimately have a bigger and more expensive problem to deal with on down the line.

RGF

Posted by: RGF at May 3, 2006 5:03 PM
Comment #145130

TO ALL:

I have made my views VERY clear on the immigration issue, but let us consider the reality here:

1. There are significant American business interests involved in the exploitation of Mexican labor both on this side of the border as well as that side.

2. This is an election year.

3. BOTH parties are now pushing for some sort of change, but none are getting anywhere (is anybody surprised?)

4. The whole reason for all the hoopla is to try to manipulate public opinion before November.

5. Ultimately, nothing is going to happen (see point one above). Status quo will remain.

RGF

Posted by: RGF at May 3, 2006 5:14 PM
Comment #145132

Consider the further fall-out from the above:

Whatever we are loosing in tax dollars spent on the undocumented…

…is ultimately helping the American business interests that are profiting from the disparity between our two peoples!!!

If the thought of the undocumented ‘taking’ from our services bothered you…

This ought to get you STEAMING!

RGF

Posted by: RGF at May 3, 2006 5:24 PM
Comment #145135

Further,

I’m not talking about “some business”

…I’m talking about businesses like DR Horton homes, the largest home builder in the country!

Posted by: RGF at May 3, 2006 5:35 PM
Comment #145152

so fix the problem. what is your solution to the problem other than the azltan bs going on down in LA. which is only reverse discrimnation and hate speech.

Put up a solution other than political tit for tat.

Posted by: lm at May 3, 2006 6:25 PM
Comment #145154

we should do away with the term undocumented worker. they are illegal aliens. undocumented workers would be someone hear legally but not registered some where. you know kinda like someone who’s visa expired and failed to report.

Posted by: lm at May 3, 2006 6:29 PM
Comment #145158

I have offered my suggestion -

We must work WITH Mexico towards OUR mutual security, since security really is the most immediate need. Islamist fundamentalist terrorists stick out in Mexico as much or more than they do here!

Then we must recognize the realitiy that OUR properity and stability is CONNECTED to that of our NEIGHBORS’. So, we must work together with them for the ultimate properity and stability of our whole region. The first step is awareness of how the disparity has been manipulated to help some profit at the expense of others. We are all in this together.

RGF

Posted by: RGF at May 3, 2006 6:33 PM
Comment #145168

How does legalizing drugs make us stable? How would you distinguish between drug dealers and users? Would Mexico demand we recognize their legal use of drugs and expect USA to honor their laws on our sovereign soil? How can we have a mutual understanding of stability when our citizens are not treated the way Mexico demands we treat someone coming into Mexico? Mexico is the most racist nation of the two as their police department and military rob, rape and murder aliens seeking a better way of life in Mexico.

Explain property and stability. I understood that NAFTA would solve all disparity between countries and provide a standard of living so the people of Mexico could stay home. Cheap labor was a calling card for our factories to abandon our citizens and provide even larger profits.

Posted by: lm at May 3, 2006 7:18 PM
Comment #145172

THe disparity that keeps the undocumented arrivals into this country coming, is also helping many businesses in this country to increase their profit. We must hold those companies accountable….BUT…

We must recognize that there will be some fallout from this:

MUCH higher prices for things like fruit and houses but those are just the things we can readily foresee. If we COMPLETELY disconnect from the undocumented labor force, and from manipulating the labor within Mexico as well, there will doubtless be consequences we cannot predict.

The only way to approach this, is to do so from the point of view of BOTH countries. We must raise the standard of living and level of prosperity, not by manipulating Mexico or the people who arrive here from Mexico, but WITH Mexico and its people for the prosperity and stability of the WHOLE REGION. That means no more profitting from the disparity should take place.

Now for the nitty gritty:
Because there is so much money being made from the status quo…none of this is likely to happen any time soon. Instead, there will be American companies who profit from the disparity between Mexico and the U.S. and there will still be people of Mexico who risk everything to get here. Those that are being hurt most are the people of Mexico both in Mexico and here. We are also being hurt, because of the tax money spent on, basically, the continued disparity.

It’s a shell game. It’s three card monty. You gotta keep your eye on the reality. It’s not the fault of the undocumented or even of Mexico. It’s a situation being continued as long as there are American business interests profiting from the status quo.

You can expect to be asked to vote, in November, based on this issue. You can also expect that regardless of party or person trying to motivate your vote…Status quo is what you will get.

RGF

Posted by: RGF at May 3, 2006 7:34 PM
Comment #145173

Maybe we could draft legislation to do away with benifits to immigrant workers, you know pay your own way and do away with NAFTA.

what do you think?

Posted by: lm at May 3, 2006 7:34 PM
Comment #145175

You misunderstood NAFTA.
NAFTA HURT Mexico. It is still hurting Mexico.
We pay a federal subsidy to certain kinds of farmers growing certain kinds of crops. These are crops we don’t really need since we produce more than we need. Those crops are then dumped on the Mexico market for less than what they can produce their own crops for. The result is that Mexican agribusiness can’t even get started. Mexican farmers revert to subsistence farming since they cannot expect to make money on crops. They end up only producing enough for their immediate needs and in a braoder sense, Mexico becomes even MORE dependent on US!

Unless we begin to recognize we are all in this together, the status quo is what we can expect.

RGF

Posted by: RGF at May 3, 2006 7:40 PM
Comment #145176

What benefits were you thinking of?

Education? We are a large country and we have literally millions who are in the process of becoming citizens through adjustment of status, marriage, etc. Further, you have a problem with enforcement.

Health care? They don’t get this anyway, except in the form of emergency care…which 40 million Americans must resort to, as well. Isn’t preventive care cheaper? I’d rather pay for someone to have a teeth cleaning than to have $5,000 emergency dental surgery to deal with an absessed tooth! So, maybe we SHOULD give them the health care they already DON’T have.

Just what were you thinking about, anyway?

RGF

Posted by: RGF at May 3, 2006 7:47 PM
Comment #145178

What part of the reality that you are being manipulated for your vote are you not understanding?

Posted by: RGF at May 3, 2006 8:03 PM
Comment #145180

I believe I mentioned factories not farming. We have agreed on farming. Factories going to Mexico were supposed to level the ground so Mexico could provide jobs for the trabejeros. They would get cheaper labor and provide a decent living for laborers commensurate with the standard of living to the geographic region of residence.

I believe you once again miss the point on health care, but that’s ok so do the leaders. The children get free breakfast lunches and schooling. HUD provides housing and I do believe many are on food stamps and more than emergency medical. I watch too many times in the hospital and grocery store where the benefits are going.

But that is beside the point if someone is getting their citizenship and meets the criteria who should the pledge of allegiance and oath of loyalty be too and in what language?

Posted by: lm at May 3, 2006 8:07 PM
Comment #145181

Im,


“I beleive…” Well, you are wrong on that. They can’t get health coverage, they can’t gt legal employment and they can’t get welfare or food stamps. Housing depends on the region, but I since they are here anyway, I’d rather they were not on the street, wouldn’t you?

I have gone into the health care issue before. Nobody has ever done anything on this blog but claim I’m not understanding their point…without even OFFERING it! Sounds like false pride, doesn’t it?

RGF

Posted by: RGF at May 3, 2006 8:14 PM
Comment #145183

As for factories (not farming)…

The maquiladoras were there long before NAFTA. NAFTA’s most significant effects were farming, not factories. I know you were told differently by more people looking to get your vote…Here’s a shock: THEY LIED.

Posted by: RGF at May 3, 2006 8:19 PM
Comment #145184

history is full of examples of class warfare. there will always be a lower class for one reason or another, in some cultures your born into your destiny. there is a middle class and then there are the upper class. education, oppurtunity and how one grasp and appies it is a big factor in the outcome of their situation.

very few middle class people are shakers and movers. they might do well and start a business that provides for them and if fortunate can employ some.

the upper class are the shakers and movers that get rich because they grasp the brass ring and go for a ride. some succeed after many failures. history shows these people and what one must sometimes endure to succeed. like it or not they are the providers of most jobs.

unfotunately, socialst systems have proven they do no succeed. Marxist systems do not succeed. Capitalist systems have always had the most success and will continue to do so. Until Mexico gets a middle class and starts to provide for their own they will always have corruption in government, law enforcement and military. Drugs will never be the mainstay of any economy as it destroys the citizens and lowers the moral fabric of a nation. THE FAMILY UNIT.

Posted by: lm at May 3, 2006 8:20 PM
Comment #145185

On the last post of yours…
We are in agreement.

But recognize that there are consequences for the disparity between ourselves and our neighbors.

Posted by: RGF at May 3, 2006 8:23 PM
Comment #145188

what language rgf? answer the question. and as far as factories ask the people the sucking sound going to Mexico created when they were displaced.

they get all the benifits i mentioned. they get a false ss# and as many as 5&6 people use it. why do you think the pool of money in the coffers of the system that cannot be claimed?

cannot have it both ways. I know the people I amd telling you about. I know the people who employed them and know the families. Daddy comes home once a year and then gets deported. seems the system pays more for more children.

Posted by: lm at May 3, 2006 8:25 PM
Comment #145189

elaborate on the consequences.

Posted by: lm at May 3, 2006 8:26 PM
Comment #145190

Im,


English is in common usage here…

It is NOT, however, the official language of this country!

Change it if you wish, but as it stands, it is NOT our official language, so until such time as it changes…you don’t have a point.

Posted by: RGF at May 3, 2006 8:29 PM
Comment #145192

The consequences are the very things you have been railing about. I am merely trying to get you to see the broader picture.

Posted by: RGF at May 3, 2006 8:31 PM
Comment #145193

It’s real simple, Im.

The disparity results in two things:

1. We have business interests, who make campaign contributions, that profit from the economic disparity.

and

2. They want to live here where they have a change at an existence not subject to abject poverty.

The disparity is the problem.
Build a fence? even if it works, it would exacerbate the disparity until they were digging tunnels, swimming, building gliders…you name it. Implement new laws? are you kidding? No law that costs money to companies of the size that are involved in this are going to be implemented! More enforcement? That’s going to cost and be of only questionalbe effectiveness.

The solution is to give our neighbor’s a hand up. When the standard of living is closer between our two nations. this won’t be an issue anymore. End the disparity.

Posted by: RGF at May 3, 2006 8:38 PM
Comment #145197

I’m pre-empting your next argument:

Giving them a hand up would be expensive? Yup. We have a choice status quo, or help our neighbors.

The middle ground might work too…

STOP PROFITING FROM KEEPING MEXICO DOWN.

It might take a little longer, but Mexico is already helping itself. The middle class is growing there. If we are patient, and behave like good neighbors rather than greedily taking advantage, then Mexico is fuly capable of stepping up to meet us!

The biggest step we can take to help them is for us to somehow STOP being market for illegal drugs. There is no greater factor contributing to poverty and misery in all of Latin America. But enforcement hasn’t worked. It needs to be a market and financial solution. We find a way for the crime to simply NOT pay anymore.

Posted by: RGF at May 3, 2006 8:50 PM
Comment #145199

give em a hand up. By the way english is the language of the land. I would love to learn spanish but not so I can use it to replace english. might like to learn french also.

as long as the government of Mexico continues on the path it is on as far as the way they treat tourist, industry ect. they have no calling card on the scale it takes to give them a hand up. now with the legalizing of drugs they have shot themselves in the foot so to speak.
they already dig tunnels and swim.

Mexico needs to reconize the problem and do more to solve it also. I personaly don’t feel safe any longer going to Mexico. I did when young and spent money. Now no one wants to go to juarez much less the enterior for fear of confiscation of property.

Bass Masters once built a loadge in Mexico and people I know had their boats and gear confiscated by the Mexican government. until we feel we can invest in Mexico there may not be that hand up you talk about.

corruption in both countries but in Mexico it hurts the economy most.

Posted by: lm at May 3, 2006 8:57 PM
Comment #145202

Mexico’s second largest industry is American dollars going back to Mexico. Halliburton invested in Mexico to help the country develop their oil industry. one day the Government confiscated all property and Halliburton abandoned the project.

Only when Mexico provides honest protection to people will anyone want to invest or travel to the extent neccessary to help.

when do you plan to change to national language or is this part of the consequences? Do you have a problem with english being the language of the country?

Posted by: lm at May 3, 2006 9:04 PM
Comment #145203

I would wager that if Mexico and the United States could swap cultures, peoples respectively, in 10 years people would be headed south for a better life. It is not the country or the natural resources but the govenmental mind set. the american dream will succeed no matter where you plant it.

Posted by: lm at May 3, 2006 9:06 PM
Comment #145364

How many of irans 40,000 human bombers are liberal democrats from america?

Posted by: mystified at May 4, 2006 12:05 PM
Post a comment