Eric's easy immigration solution

All this noise about illegal immigration is just plain silly. One side says they have a right to be US citizens, the other side says that they have a right to limit illegal immigration. I have an easy and long term solution which takes into account both sides of the argument…

*** Annex Mexico. ***

It's as simple as that. Think about it for a moment. Why does anyone want to come to the US? Opportunity. Why isn't there the same opportunity in Mexico?

Really, ask yourself how different California is from Baja. What's the difference? When you cross the border from San Diego into Tijuana what changes? It certainly isn't the land itself. The border is an arbitrary line.

What's more Mexico has a great deal of natural resources that should make it a rich and prosperous country. Indeed, Mexico is the eighth largest oil producer in the world.

The real problem is that Mexico is poorly managed. Very poorly managed, and corrupt as all get out. So in short, the solution is not to move Miguel to the mountain, but move the mountain to Miguel.

This solves everybody's problems. Make Mexico part of America. Mexican's all get to be US citizens and we get thirty-one more states to add to our flag. It's a win win! Just look what it did for Texas.

Posted by Eric Simonson at April 29, 2006 3:15 AM
Comments
Comment #144080

Intriguing Eric, but can’t we give California to Mexico instead. They’ll run the property values down so that people can afford to live there agsin.

Posted by: goodkingned at April 29, 2006 3:26 AM
Comment #144081

Well, given that they are legalizing small amounts of drugs so that they don’t have to clog their courts and prisons with pot smokers, I think they may have entirely too much sense to be American.

If they don’t want to be annexed, Eric, do you propose invasion?

I think we could take ‘em.

Posted by: Jack Mohammedoff at April 29, 2006 3:30 AM
Comment #144088

Jack:

Remember the Alamo!

Posted by: goodkingned at April 29, 2006 4:13 AM
Comment #144091

Wouldnt we also pick up some oil reserves?

Posted by: j2t2 at April 29, 2006 4:54 AM
Comment #144092

oops of course 8th largest, time to go to bed. Good idea Eric

Posted by: j2t2 at April 29, 2006 4:56 AM
Comment #144093

think about all the factories that would come back under the controls of the Federal Govt.

Posted by: j2t2 at April 29, 2006 4:59 AM
Comment #144094

j2t2:

Do you think we could suceed in making the same industries unprofitable twice?

Posted by: goodkingned at April 29, 2006 5:09 AM
Comment #144099

Talk about widening the wealth gap of the haves and have nots in America. This one takes the cake, and of course it comes from a staunch Republican supporter, that goes without saying. :-)

Good one, Eric. Love it when Republicans fly their true colors in public.

Posted by: David R. Remer at April 29, 2006 7:00 AM
Comment #144100

As you can see, Ladies and Gentlemen, even Eric Simonson believes the US is destined to be a Latino Country. It is only fate that we should all be speaking Spanish. There is already a Spanish Star Spangled Banner!!! I admit it is more beautiful than the english version.

Let us all embrace a Latino America!!!

Posted by: Aldous at April 29, 2006 7:17 AM
Comment #144101

Annex Mexico? Half of them are here already!

Did you hear that Pres. Fox is against ammnesity for all the “undocumented laborers of Mexican desent residing in the Estados Unidos?” If we make all of the illegals here legal, then they get the right to move their families here from Mexico… thus taking away the need for the illegals here to mail US dollars back to their families in Mexico…

US dollars being mailed to Mexicans from illegals in the US is the second largest industry in Mexico (second to their Oil industry.) While a huge piece of this puzzle is Reconquista, the re-taking of CA, AZ, NM and TX, the other huge piece is plain and simple money. The Mexico hates us, but they love our money. Ain’t that the way of the world….

Posted by: Andrew at April 29, 2006 7:39 AM
Comment #144103

Hey we have the people, might as well get the real estate.

Posted by: Ron Brown at April 29, 2006 8:02 AM
Comment #144104

Eric,

So if you annex them, do they get to keep speaking Spanish? You guys are always complaining about bilingual education…

Posted by: Woody Mena at April 29, 2006 8:08 AM
Comment #144111

There’s no need to annex Mexico. Our leaders, both Rep and Dem, are in the process of expanding NAFTA into the SPP-the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America. This will erase the borders between the US, Mexico and Canada. It’s just a steppingstone to the FTAA-the Free Trade Area of the Americas. This will encompass all the countries of the western hemisphere into a single regional government that duplicates the European Union.
Soon, America will no longer be a soveriegn nation, but a “local administrative district” of the UN.
WAKE UP! The politicians that so many of you put your faith in are selling us out.

Posted by: traveller at April 29, 2006 10:03 AM
Comment #144112

Mexico is already annexing the U.S.

In Los Angeles with over 1 million illegal aliens, thousands drive about without drivers licenses or auto insurance, with these little signs in their vehicles that display:

  • F**K YOU ! … THIS IS MEXICO !
  • If thousands of illegal aliens without driver’s licenses drove all about Washington, D.C. daily with those little flashing L.E.D. signs in their back windows, irresponsible incumbent politicians might get a different perspective of the classic problems stemming from massive, uncontrolled illegal immigration. They might actually stop allowing illegal aliens in our country against our laws. If those irresponsible incumbents’ children were victims of the increased rates of crime perpetrated by an illegal alien, they might feel differently about those new votes and cheap labor.

    More deaths are caused by illegal aliens per day than U.S. troops killed in Iraq, since illegal aliens kill between 1,806 and 2,510 people in the United States each year. We have passed the 2,000 deaths mark in the invasion of Iraq. In that same 32 months, there have possibly been between 4,800 and 6,700 deaths in the invasion of the United States by illegal aliens, a corrupt endeavor tolerated in a frivolous pursuit of cheap labor, that mostly only benefits the greedy employers.

    OK, since I’m about to get barraged by some calling me xenophobe, racist, Nazi, etc., this is not about xenophobia, race, color, ethnicity.

    This is not an attempt to portray all illegal aliens as criminals, but the crime can not be ignored, since these are crimes that should have never occurred.

    It is simply that the U.S. can not let everyone that wants to come here do so, because, before long, we will be as bad off as the nations where the illegal aliens come from. The pie can not be made any bigger. The net losses (over $70 billion per year) can not be ignored. It is a form of theft. Our many systems are being burdened and destroyed. Hospitals are closing. Property taxes are skyrocketing because of increased education and bilingual educaiton costs, 29% of prisoners in our prisons are illegal aliens, homicide rates have doubled, other crime rates have increased, welfare systems are being heavily burdened, 32% of illegal aliens recieve welfare, Social Security and Medicare are being fraudulently abused, capitalism run amuck is displacing American workers, and our elections are being affected. This country has an asinine immigration policy. Since the do-nothing federal government won’t do anything, states should not wait. States should take responsibility and secure their own borders, or continue to be overrun by over 1 million illegal aliens per year (several thousand per day).

    Posted by: d.a.n at April 29, 2006 10:08 AM
    Comment #144113

    This all can’t be serious, can it? If we want to “solve” the illegal immigration problem, treat Mexico as we do Canada. Let ‘em come on over. The second step would be to back legislation now being introduced in Congress to strengthen unions in this country. Next make unionization possible in Mexico and get rid of NAFTA and CAFTA if those agreements won’t make provisions for strong labor unions. Of course all of this assumes serious attitudes about serious solutions.

    Posted by: cml at April 29, 2006 10:08 AM
    Comment #144114

    Neutron them!! If you don’t use what you got ,you loose what youy have!!

    Posted by: Tom Bosfu at April 29, 2006 10:26 AM
    Comment #144137

    Tom b. i hear the defense department are looking for people like you and aldous. to bring somekind of stability in iran.

    Posted by: FA STEPHENS at April 29, 2006 1:04 PM
    Comment #144138

    We don’t have the money for it. Like most Republican ideas these days - this is a fantasy land solution.

    But I do agree that people who break the law should go to jail. That’s why I will fight the “amnesty” our government has given to drug addicts and pushers who forge prescriptions to get herion-based drugs.

    Check out this guy">link text who received about 2,000 painkillers, prescribed by four doctors in six months. I know Republicans will come down hard on this law-breaker.

    Posted by: Max at April 29, 2006 1:08 PM
    Comment #144139

    Sorry - here’s the link.

    Posted by: Max at April 29, 2006 1:10 PM
    Comment #144141

    Eric,
    Although it’s true that many of the illegals come from our friendly neighbory Mexico, another vast amount comes from China, Central America, and Cuba. Should we annex those areas also?

    Posted by: greenstuff at April 29, 2006 1:17 PM
    Comment #144142

    Greenstuff,
    I thought that was the idea - heck, we’re in Iraq already. I suspect that we’ll be in Iran soon. We’ve still got troops in Japan, Germany, Great Britain, Cuba,etc.

    I was under the impression that Bush wants to annex the entire world into the US - afterall, everyone knows he wants Democracy - Bush style in all the other countries.

    To heck with what they want….

    Posted by: Linda H. at April 29, 2006 1:30 PM
    Comment #144148

    YES, Greenstuff we can do it. We need to get them before they get us. All we have to do is borrow 10 or 15 trillion from our grand kids.

    Long live Pax Americana!

    Jack: it is not just pot, you forgot cocane, heroin and a few other goodies.

    Is it true? They are going to sing the national anthem is spanish at the NASCAR race this weekend.

    I was a displaced construction worker, now I am one of those people who just doesn’t want a job.

    Hell, even walmart won’t hire me. I’ve put in 4 applications, that’s how low I have sunk.

    Posted by: jlw at April 29, 2006 1:51 PM
    Comment #144152

    Eric

    We don’t have to annex Mexico, they are annexing us.

    Have you heard the new Spanish version os the America’s National Anthem?

    Flying the Mexican flag, rewriting the National Anthem.

    Better learn Spanish, amigo, if you want to be an American.

    Posted by: vietnam_vet at April 29, 2006 2:12 PM
    Comment #144161

    Vietnam_vet;

    Context is everything. If that song had come out a few years ago I probably would have thought: ok, it’s somebody’s artistic interpretation (akin to Henrdrix’s instrumental version) and makes a statement about diversity and free speech in our country. Pretty harmless.

    In the current environment, though, I personally find it to be absolutely offensive - not to mention mind-bogglingly counter-productive to their cause. I mean, is the problem really that a lot of them really WANT to go back but don’t have the bus fare and thought this might be a good way to insure that we deport the lot of them?

    Not to mention the fact that the vocals, the harmonies, and the revised lyrics are horrendous.

    Posted by: adverbal at April 29, 2006 3:18 PM
    Comment #144170

    Here’s what the expert say about the relationship between Crime and Immigration:

    “It may be surprising, then, to find agreement among several leading criminologists that immigration does not cause crime-and may even reduce it. None of them would argue that immigration is the most important factor everywhere, especially since the recent rise in Boston’s murder rate comes as its foreign-born population continues to grow. But the increased flow of immigrants to major American cities nationwide, argues Robert J. Sampson, a Harvard sociologist and lead author of a major recent study on the topic, ”has been one of the more plausible explanations that we’ve seen for the decrease in the violence rate.”

    Skepticism about a link between increased crime and immigration isn’t entirely new. Working in the 1920s and ’30s, at the end of the country’s last great wave of immigration, criminology pioneers Edwin Sutherland and Thorsten Sellin found that immigrants had lower crime rates than both native-born Americans and second-generation immigrants. It was American culture, Sutherland and Sellin concluded, that caused crime, and the less exposure to it one had the less likely one was to be a criminal.

    Published earlier this year, the study led by Harvard’s Sampson echoed these earlier surveys. Sampson and his colleagues followed a diverse group of nearly 3,000 Chicago youths from 1995 to 2002, and found that immigrant kids were less likely than peers of similar socioeconomic backgrounds to participate in everything from gang fights to arson to purse snatchings. Not only that, but even nonimmigrant kids who happened to live in immigrant neighborhoods were less likely than otherwise to be involved in violence.”

    Read more here.

    Honestly, this whole immigration issue is just the last gasp from a dying party trying to cling to any issue it can. Personally, I think many of the Republican reactions are racially motivated. I’ll bet most South Americans see it that way too.

    Not sure what happened to the Republican party, but all the suggestions coming from them are completely fantasy land. Why don’t you just set up a Moon base and move all the Republicans there?

    Posted by: Max at April 29, 2006 4:27 PM
    Comment #144174

    Hey ! This is kinda what the new CSA is wanting to do through sesession. Give us a coupla states. We’d have our own constiturion, miliias, taxes, and the actual will of it’s citizens shall be done including the regulation of who is and who is not welcome. It’s not like some of those of closed minds think. True it may not be perfect for some, but it seems a damn site better than whats fixing to happen to the good old US of A. What is really the difference between the Dem’s, and the Republican’s? Nothing but the spelling. I love my country but fear my Govt.. The US is sinking into a large sink-hole with everyone caving in to PC and not taking a firm domestic stand. Love & Kisses….bluetick0724

    Posted by: bluetick0724 at April 29, 2006 4:31 PM
    Comment #144175

    And if you don’t like hearing from me that your party has become the party of wild suggestions and gullibility, hear it from your own Tony Snow - your new WhiteHouse Press Secrretary and ex FOX news anchor:

    How About a Little Common Sense on Immigration
    By Tony Snow

    WASHINGTON, D.C. — Illegal immigration seems to have spawned a dreary debate about the merits of Mexicans, when it should be drawing attention instead to a very different matter: how to build on the luster and wonder of the American dream.

    Immigration is not the pox neo-Know Nothings make it out to be.
    Begin with the astounding influx of illegal immigrants, the vast majority of whom hail from Mexico. While the population includes an eye-popping number of crooks, drug-dealers and would-be welfare sponges, it also provides a helpful prop for sustaining American economic growth and cultural dynamism.

    Princeton University sociologist Douglas S. Massey reports that
    62 percent of illegal immigrants pay income taxes (via withholding) and 66 percent contribute to Social Security. Forbes magazine notes that Mexican illegals aren’t clogging up the social-services system: only 5 percent receive food stamps or unemployment assistance; 10 percent send kids to public schools.

    On the work front, Hispanic unemployment has tumbled to 5.5 percent, only slightly above the national average of 4.7 percent and considerably lower than the black unemployment rate of 9.3 percent.
    Economist Larry Kudlow praises Hispanic entrepreneurship: “According to 2002 Census Bureau data, Hispanics are opening businesses at a rate three times faster than the national average. In addition, there were almost 1.6 million Hispanic-owned businesses generating $222 billion in revenue in 2002.”

    Skeptics counter that immigrants have clogged our hospitals, which is true — but primarily in places that offer lavish benefits to illegal immigrants.

    ….

    Read more here

    Posted by: Max at April 29, 2006 4:32 PM
    Comment #144182

    And stop complimenting yourselves that the asshole is the most important body part. No one likes a braggart.

    Posted by: Max at April 29, 2006 4:57 PM
    Comment #144186

    Max:

    You are misrepresenting the information regarding the relationship between withheld taxes and tax payment. Just because some portion of a person’s estimated tax debt is withheld that doesn’t equate with paying the full tax bill. Most people owe additional taxes at year end. Withholding taxes from each check will still result in a tax debt for most illegal workers.

    Posted by: goodkingned at April 29, 2006 5:08 PM
    Comment #144193

    Goodkinged,

    You are attacking the WhiteHouse Press Secretary, but I think he’s right. They are still paying taxes. Besides most people doing these sorts of jobs (e.g. waitering, cooking, cleaning, construction) don’t have a whole lot of additional taxes to pay at the end of the year.

    Posted by: Max at April 29, 2006 5:28 PM
    Comment #144195

    Max:

    Oh, and about this assertion of yours:

    … Skeptics counter that immigrants have clogged our hospitals, which is true — but primarily in places that offer lavish benefits to illegal immigrants.

    It is primarilly true in Texas, California and all the border states you would expect and it is true in southern states without the infrastructure to enforce laws against illegal workers, such as Georgia. How fiscally imprudent that these states offer the ‘lavish benefits’ such as federally required emergency medical care to anyone who walks in. What were they thinking? One extremely costly medical benefit is obstetrics. Delivery costs for illegals are significantly higher because they don’t seek prenatal care. All medical costs are generally higher for illegals because they tend to only seek medical attention after a condition has become extreme.

    Oh, and by the way, I don’t know how many illegals send their children to public schools near Princeton, but a great many send their children to school in all those border states I just referenced. Providing education to this population is more costly in time and materials due to the need to provide english language education, prior to mainstreaming these children.

    I’m not disputing your facts, I am just saying that they don’t mean what you say they do. It is necessary to evaluate the costs associated with hosting illegals on a regional basis, not a national basis, since they draw resources from regional funding sources, not national funding sources.

    Posted by: goodkingned at April 29, 2006 5:30 PM
    Comment #144197

    Tony Snow says “10 percent send kids to public schools.” Again, these aren’t my assertions - they are Tony Snow’s, Bush’s new White House Press Secretary and former FOX news anchor, who happens to have also said a lot of other things I agree with, including that the president is an idiot.

    Posted by: Max at April 29, 2006 5:43 PM
    Comment #144199

    It seems some are unfamiliar with Tony Snow. Bush just replaced McClellan with him as White House Press Secretary. If you can’t shut a critic up, I guess you co-opt them. Below are some choice words Tony Snow has had for Bush in the past. Can you imagine McClellan saying this stuff?

    For those that are unfamiliar with FOX news and new White House Press Secretary Tony Snow and his opinions

    – Bush has “lost control of the federal budget and cannot resist the temptation to stop raiding the public fisc.” [3/17/06]

    – “George W. Bush and his colleagues have become not merely the custodians of the largest government in the history of humankind, but also exponents of its vigorous expansion.” [3/17/06]

    – “President Bush distilled the essence of his presidency in this year’s State of the Union Address: brilliant foreign policy and listless domestic policy.” [2/3/06]

    – “George Bush has become something of an embarrassment.” [11/11/05]

    – Bush “has a habit of singing from the Political Correctness hymnal.” [10/7/05]

    – “No president has looked this impotent this long when it comes to defending presidential powers and prerogatives.” [9/30/05]

    – Bush “has given the impression that [he] is more eager to please than lead, and that political opponents can get their way if they simply dig in their heels and behave like petulant trust-fund brats, demanding money and favor — now!” [9/30/05]

    – “When it comes to federal spending, George W. Bush is the boy who can’t say no. In each of his three years at the helm, the president has warned Congress to restrain its spending appetites, but so far nobody has pushed away from the table mainly because the president doesn’t seem to mean what he says.” [The Detroit News, 12/28/03]

    – “The president doesn’t seem to give a rip about spending restraint.” [The Detroit News, 12/28/03]

    – “Bush, for all his personal appeal, ultimately bolstered his detractors’ claims that he didn’t have the drive and work ethic to succeed.” [11/16/00]

    – “Little in the character of demeanor of Al Gore or George Bush makes us say to ourselves: Now, this man is truly special! Little in our present peace and prosperity impels us to say: Give us a great man!” [8/25/00]

    – “George W. Bush, meanwhile, talks of a pillowy America, full of niceness and goodwill. Bush has inherited his mother’s attractive feistiness, but he also got his father’s syntax. At one point last week, he stunned a friendly audience by barking out absurd and inappropriate words, like a soul tortured with Tourette’s.” [8/25/00]

    – “He recently tried to dazzle reporters by discussing the vagaries of Congressional Budget Office economic forecasts, but his recitation of numbers proved so bewildering that not even his aides could produce a comprehensible translation. The English Language has become a minefield for the man, whose malaprops make him the political heir not of Ronald Reagan, but Norm Crosby.” [8/25/00]

    – “On the policy side, he has become a classical dime-store Democrat. He gladly will shovel money into programs that enjoy undeserved prestige, such as Head Start. He seems to consider it mean-spirited to shut down programs that rip-off taxpayers and mislead supposed beneficiaries.” [8/25/00]

    Hey at least Bush chose someone honest this time.

    Posted by: Max at April 29, 2006 5:54 PM
    Comment #144202

    For many years I advocated a very Modest Proposal for the purpose of solving Another Problem…

    Now, in the face of the current brouhaha, and in answer to Eric’s suggestion, I will trot it out again:

    What the United States and the United Nations should have done in 1947, and what could be done now, to solve a host of Troubles, is to create the State of Israel in Mexico, instead of Palestine.

    Think about it:

    - Wealthy Jews already love Mexico! They vacation there regularly - in Puerto Vallarta, Acapulco, Cabo San Lucas; the Israelis could stop Fighting for a Homeland…

    - The Mexican Economy would be vastly improved; the Mexican Native Israelis would be far better off…

    - No more complaining by the Palestinians: they could have their land - with all the Physical Improvements built by the Israelis…

    - World Culture would get a new Fusion Cuisine: Gefilte Tacos, Matzoh Con Mole, Tortilla Latkes, Kedem Tequila, Etc. …

    Everything considered, it’s a Win-Win situation! Let’s call Olmert and Fox and get this party rolling!

    Posted by: Betty Burke at April 29, 2006 5:56 PM
    Comment #144203

    Betty,

    Why don’t the Palestinians move to Mexico?

    Posted by: Max at April 29, 2006 6:00 PM
    Comment #144204

    Max,

    There are a number of articles and GAO reports that would argue that those numbers. For instance, GAO Report 98030 from 1995, which states (for California alone) that 10% of all case-loads accounted for $0.72 billion in welfare was received by households of citizen children with illegal alien parent(s). And that was 10 years ago, and the 10% is double the value stated in the article provided.

    I’m aware that a few articles, as the one you pointed out, try to make a case that illegal aliens create a net profit (not a net loss), but they are not very thorough. Many GAO reports on incarceration costs alone make it difficult to believe that illegal aliens create a net profit.

    For instance, consider the following (current) costs for education, emergency medical, and incarceration costs alone:

    … totalling about $36 billion.
    And, it is important to note that the cost of crime and doubled crime rates have not even been added into the calculations.

    Regarding taxes … about half of illegal aliens pay income taxes. No body can be absolutely certain of this number, since it is difficult to measure the number that do not. However, even after taxes paid are accounted for, there is still a huge net loss to American citizens. In 1996, it was conservatively estimated at $24.4 billion. It is now estimated to be about $70 billion. Some estimates place it as high as $87 billion.

    Also, the statement that only “10 percent send kids to public schools” is woefully untrue also. Tony Snow mispoke or needs to double-check his sources. There are many dozens of credible sources stating much higher percentages than 10%.

    Numerous studies have documented the significant fiscal burdens stemming from illegal aliens on local communities. Since wages are relatively low, taxes withheld are low also. Any form of amnesty will create a flood of more illegal aliens, and it will not only perpetuate the fiscal burden, it will increase it sustantially.

    Posted by: d.a.n at April 29, 2006 6:03 PM
    Comment #144216

    A significant number of Americans of both major political parties believe strongly that the problem of illegal immigration must be dealt with decisively.

    We would do well to understand that the only solution that is likely to be effective, and yet timely enough to head off economic and cultural disaster, is the threat of impeachment to George W. Bush.

    However, conservatives who favor Bush’s impeachment are in a distinct minority, and liberals so inclined, despite a loud volume of rhetoric from the left, are also a minority.

    I believe the lack of support for Bush’s impeachment, across the political spectrum, stems solely from the impeachment movement’s sole reliance up to now on anti-war grounds. Like it or not, there are not enough Americans who are convinced of the wrongness of the Iraq war effort itself. Stated another way, there are too many voters who supported, and will continue to support, military intervention in Iraq on any grounds whatsoever.

    If the two minorities from either end of the political spectrum could make common cause, a coalition with enough votes in Congress might be formed with could at least begin the impeachment process. In this way the Bush administration might feel sufficiently threatened to move to the right, taking the actions conservatives desire as to illegal immigration, namely: securing our borders, deporting illegal aliens, and prosecuting employers who knowingly employ illegal aliens. Concurrently, Bush might be moved to begin a decisive disengagement from Iraq.

    How could such common cause be made? It would involve a significant and far-reaching compromise between the liberals and conservatives. Let’s re-state the situation which makes compromise imperative: a) Some liberals favor the impeachment of Bush over alleged lies and abuse of power related to the war in Iraq, while conservatives discount these factors, in whole or in large part; and, b) Some conservatives believe the Bush is in violation of his oath of office…certainly an impeachable offense…for failing to act decisively on the illegal immigration question.

    To effect a compromise that would significantly increase momentum for Bush’s impeachment, articles of impeachment should be drafted which include not only the left’s charges concerning the war, but also the right’s charges that Bush has violated his oath of office.

    Each side would have to “give,” as follows: Liberals would have to come out against illegal immigration, and conservatives would have to endorse the liberal position concerning the war and national security power abuses.

    Naturally, each side would insist on a “gain.” The gain for liberals would be tacit conservative endorsement of the liberal position, and likely political gains for the Democrats in Congress in 2006, and an increased possibility of regaining the White House in 2008. Democrats have been accused of fringe mentality so long that such an endorsement would likely appeal to them, and appear as considerable and tangible in their eyes.

    The gain for the conservatives could be twofold: 1) decisive action against illegal immigration, or a clear declaration that such will be necessary for any politician seeking conservative support; and 2) negotiation of a mutually acceptable, yet decisive “exit strategy” from Iraq that would establish U. S. power credibility and largely break the back of the insurgency.

    A possible such “exit strategy” would include cordonization and ensuing destruction of the Sunni triangle…preceeded by a suitable period allowing any person the opportunity to exit through screening checkpoints…this to be followed with a phased withdrawal of combat troops (definitely short term, but without announced timelines) leaving only advisory-type units to train and coordinate operations of the Iraqi security forces. Further, the exit of combat troops should be tied to tangible evidence of Syrian and Irani disengagement from support of the insurgency, delineated through direct diplomatic efforts. Failure to meet such targets, it would be made clear, would be cause for re-introduction of direct U. S. combat power.

    Such a compromise between the liberal and conservative patriots in this Country appears to be necessary to accomplish what we both desire, i.e.: the removal of an administration which is proving itself increasingly unable or unwilling to address critical problems facing America.

    What we lack is only agreement on the grounds which could constuct such a compromise, and a core of leadership in the Congress, from Members on both sides of the aisle, which could take this idea and begin to move it forward.

    I am appealing to such leadership, through this forum and website, that it begin the process. Thank you for your consideration of this proposal.

    Posted by: Proposal for a Compromise at April 29, 2006 6:53 PM
    Comment #144217

    Now that a series of drugs that are illegal in the US and elsewhere in the world have been legitimized in Mexico, I wonder how much of those products will
    immigrate” to the US for sale/distribution even to the point of the transporter being able to sell them and not have to work.

    There is a “work stoppage day” planned by ilegal immigrants for Monday. They evidently want to stay home and show us how important they are to our economy. Good, everyone who calls in sick on Monday should be immediately replaced by a “American” who is jobless (or claims to be) because of that immigrant.

    Of course they are and will be voting in our general elections, so this iussue is going to get lot’s of attention for quite some time. We are going to end up with a DEPARTMENT OF RECOUNTING.

    Posted by: steve smith at April 29, 2006 6:57 PM
    Comment #144220

    So now someone wants to impeach the president. Let me think. If the president is impeached, then the president would be Cheaney. Now, here is a novel idea. With President Cheaney in charge we could get the NRA and Ted Nugent to lead the charge to take care of this problem.

    Posted by: tomh at April 29, 2006 7:16 PM
    Comment #144225

    I have the solution. You do, too. It has been staring us in the face for a few years. Lets round up the illegal aliens and send them to fight in Iraq until they die or go home to Mexico.(seems to me that dieing is kinda like going home to Mexico).

    Posted by: Don at April 29, 2006 8:00 PM
    Comment #144226

    d.a.n.,

    Hospitals are closing.

    Link?

    Property taxes are skyrocketing because of increased education and bilingual educaiton costs,

    This is hilarious! Property taxes are skyrocketing because the housing market has been on fire. How do you explain the rise in property taxes in areas with no hispanic populations?

    29% of prisoners in our prisons are illegal aliens,

    Link? The data I’ve found states the number is almost half that.

    homicide rates have doubled, other crime rates have increased,

    That’s a laugh. Since when? 1910? Don’t suppose you have a link for that nonsense either?

    welfare systems are being heavily burdened, 32% of illegal aliens recieve welfare,

    Link?

    capitalism run amuck is displacing American workers,

    Link? Evidence? Something?

    and our elections are being affected.

    How so?

    -Burt

    Posted by: Burt at April 29, 2006 8:04 PM
    Comment #144235

    Eric…

    HEY!!!!

    NO STEALING MY IDEA!!!

    Posted by: Jim T at April 29, 2006 9:23 PM
    Comment #144236
    Burt wrote: d.a.n., Hospitals are closing. Link?
    _____________

    84 hospitals closed in California due to Illegal Aliens:


    What is unseen is their free medical care that has degraded and closed some of America’s finest emergency medical facilities, and caused hospital bankruptcies: 84 California hospitals [have, or] are closing their doors.
    Anchor babies born to illegal aliens instantly qualify as citizens for welfare benefits and have caused enormous rises in Medicaid costs and [other] stipends under Supplemental Security Income [SSI] and Disability Income.”

    _____________

    How’s that for you, Burt ?

    Burt wrote:
    d.a.n wrote: Property taxes are skyrocketing because of increased education and bilingual education costs,
    This is hilarious! Property taxes are skyrocketing because the housing market has been on fire. How do you explain the rise in property taxes in areas with no hispanic populations?

    Burt, above is a list of billions in losses to educate illegal aliens. In many states, public education is funded by property taxes. Duh !

    d.a.n wrote: … 29% of prisoners in our prisons are illegal aliens,
    Burt wrote: Link? The data I’ve found states the number is almost half that.
    Burt, go here to answer the next three questions.
    d.a.n wrote: … homicide rates have doubled, other crime rates have increased,
    Burt wrote: That’s a laugh. Since when? 1910? Don’t suppose you have a link for that nonsense either?
    d.a.n wrote: … welfare systems are being heavily burdened, 32% of illegal aliens recieve welfare,
    Burt wrote: Link?
    See here link above.
    d.a.n wrote: … capitalism run amuck is displacing American workers,
    Burt wrote: Link? Evidence? Something?

    2.3 million American Workers Displaced:
    During 1996, approximately 2.3 million predominantly low-skill American workers were displaced from their jobs due to the continued heavy influx of immigrant workers since 1970. Taxpayers paid more than $15.2 billion in public assistance for those displaced workers in 1996, including Medicaid, Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC), unemployment compensation, and food stamps.
    That was in 1996. It’s even worse now.

    d.a.n wrote: … and our elections are being affected.
    Burt wrote: How so?
    See here link above, or click on voter fraud.

    Let me know if you have any questions about that.
    See how wonderfully educational this web-site is?

    : )

    Posted by: d.a.n at April 29, 2006 9:26 PM
    Comment #144242

    to Max’s response, to a earlier post from april 29th. at 5.56 pm and max’s answer at 6.00 pm. good post max, and good answer! Rodney Brown.

    Posted by: RODNEY BROWN at April 29, 2006 10:07 PM
    Comment #144249

    Goodkingned,

    So you are saying that the FOX news article is putting a liberal spin on the facts, and that Tony Snow doesn’t know what he is talking about?

    You want the honest truth? I don’t know who has the right facts - you or Tony, but I do see that arguments are easily made by both sides using statistics. For me to find to dig down to the truth would take too long.

    To be honest I don’t see much of a difference between the liberal and conservative stance on this issue. They both agree illegal immigration has gotten out of control and needs to be dealt with. They both agree the border problem needs to be fixed. The Deomocrat solution is to give these people a chance to get real jobs, send anyone home who doesn’t, watch them over the next 15 years, and if someone meets certian benchmarks they can become a citizen. The Republican proposal is to send them all home, which simply won’t happen. It’s just too expensive to do that.

    However, in the meantime I believe the more Republicans talk about this, the more disaffected the rest of the country will become with them. I think most people know that illegal aliens are not what’s destroying this country right now.

    Posted by: Max at April 29, 2006 10:39 PM
    Comment #144252

    Burt, you are partly wrong. More population means more capital investment in schools. The bond issues for new capital development in school systems which includes maintenance and upkeep are partly a direct result of increased immigration and “unAmerican” birth rates. The national avg. is about 1.8 children per family, whereas the undocumented immigrant birth rate is twice that or more.

    Posted by: WatchBlog Managing Editor at April 29, 2006 11:02 PM
    Comment #144258

    Next time you eat out or buy whatever from business that honors May 1 walk out, think about what these same radical people might do to your food. after all they have no respect for the rule of law. Might be more food poisioning going around if they can not have their way, or maybe just some spit in your soup or salad.

    boycott them. stop patronizing the businesses that support criminal activist.

    Posted by: lm at April 30, 2006 12:29 AM
    Comment #144262

    thats right spit on the food $$$— dont lava los lamos or wash your hands$$$—- like some old woman $$$—- how would you like your whopper sir $$$—- we will make it your way $$$—- jesus h christ $$$— the only thing there good for is washing dishes and pouring concrete.$$$—-then you better watch them$$$—-they will steal your gold teeth$$$—- may 1st$$$— bring it on i am waiting$$$—-12 million ha ha ha ha more like 25 million illegals $$$—- there going to get ugly better watch your children and women $$$—-dont say i did not warn you goda# liberals they want a killing box$$$—- you think your save $$$—- because your a lib$$$ remember LA they did not care who they pulled out an killed$$$ remember old A W M told you$$$—-

    Posted by: angry white man at April 30, 2006 1:16 AM
    Comment #144264

    angry white man,

    Gee, a little less coffee maybe?

    Posted by: Rocky at April 30, 2006 1:40 AM
    Comment #144265

    Man, theres a little problem with annexing mexico.

    If we take over, we have to deal with their problems, secure THEIR borders (they have a large illegal imigrant population from south american countries) and deal with their education legal and political systems.

    We’d be inheriting a mess.

    Posted by: iandanger at April 30, 2006 1:40 AM
    Comment #144266

    we could annex mexico. then we could use it to put our trash in as it is a trash heap anyway.

    don’t rats come out of trash dumps?

    Posted by: lm at April 30, 2006 1:44 AM
    Comment #144267

    No racism here.

    No way no how.

    Posted by: Rocky at April 30, 2006 1:46 AM
    Comment #144269

    well there ya go again. facts only seem to confuse ya rocky, racism is always a good last word. kinda like oh yea!

    Posted by: lm at April 30, 2006 1:49 AM
    Comment #144270

    Yeah, you’re right.
    It always confuses me when someone insults my intelligence with some useless rant at the expence of others.

    Posted by: Rocky at April 30, 2006 1:56 AM
    Comment #144271

    angry white man,
    I have a feeling there’s many an American citizen that has also spat in your food.

    lm,
    The only way there’s no racism here is if you and angry white man are both Mexicans. So is there racism or not, amigo?

    Posted by: Charles Wager at April 30, 2006 1:59 AM
    Comment #144272

    iandanger $$$— what do you think we have been inheriting for the last 40 years$$$—- cream of the crop$$$— no differance $$$— Rocky no coffee here$$$—- just the truth$$$—- that’s what keeps old AWM going.$$$—-

    Posted by: angry white man at April 30, 2006 2:01 AM
    Comment #144273

    How do you do with your kkk’s?

    Posted by: Rocky at April 30, 2006 2:03 AM
    Comment #144274

    Are those crickets I hear chirping?

    Posted by: Rocky at April 30, 2006 2:11 AM
    Comment #144275

    The annex Mexico idea is nonsense, since it would require Mexico’s approval (unless someone is suggesting an invasion?).
    Besides, it is too late.
    The U.S. is has already been annexed.

    The U.S. is witnessing the typical, classic negative effects of massive, uncontrolled illegal immigraiton.
    The U.S. allows hundreds of thousands to immigrate annually.
    But, the U.S. can not absorb the millions flowing in yearly.
    We are importing poverty, disease, and crime.
    The majority of Americans want this resolved.

    Perhaps slumbering voters have had enough?
    We’ll see.
    If something is not done before November, some politicians might be lookin’ for a new job.

    Posted by: d.a.n at April 30, 2006 2:11 AM
    Comment #144276

    even old awm knows im was just using reverse sarcasim$$— look like he proved his point$$$—

    Posted by: angry white man at April 30, 2006 2:12 AM
    Comment #144277

    You missed an $ in sarcasm.

    Posted by: Rocky at April 30, 2006 2:15 AM
    Comment #144278

    Rocky,

    I’ve been researching this thing off and on for over 2 years, read hundreds of reports, articles, GAO reports, and historical accounts of the problems stemming from massive, uncontrolled illegal immigration, and received information and data sources from a few people that have been researching the problem for many years.

    There may have been a time when illegal aliens were actually a net profit to the U.S., but now, with massive, uncontrolled, illegal immigration (about 1 million per year and growing fast):

    • (1) Do you believe there is a net loss or net profit?

    • (2) If there’s a net profit, who gets it?

    What would be your solution?
    I’ve recommended the following, and I realize a change to the 14th Amenment is unlikely, but what would you recommend?

    • Secure the borders (with a mere 5.9% (i.e. 153,000 border patrol) of the total number of 2.6 million military, guard, and reserves; at a cost of $10 billion per year, which is far less than the current annual net losses of $70 billion due to illegal immigration)
    • Require enforcement of all immigration laws. Enforce the existing laws.
    • Require deportation of ALL illegal entries and visa overstays currently within our jails and prisons (i.e. within our custody).
    • Require ALL employers to use the Social Security Verification System for ALL hires.
    • Deny ALL illegal alien births automatic citizenship. End anchor-baby scam for blue passports and path to welfare and public benefits for illegal alien parent(s);
    • Deny ALL illegal aliens a FREE K-12 education;
    • Deny ALL illegal aliens ANY and ALL public benefits (welfare, Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, food stamps, etc.);
    • Deny ALL illegal aliens driver’s licenses;
    • Deny ALL illegal aliens college tuition;
    • Verify ALL voter’s citizenship, before permission to vote. Biometrics could be helpful;
    • Provide $500 (per person) and pre-paid transportation to each illegal alien volunteering to leave the U.S. ;
    • With no jobs or welfare, the remaining illegal aliens will leave voluntarily. Allow 12 months for all illegal aliens to leave on their own, with their own property. Those wishing to immigrate to the U.S. must get in line behind those already seeking to immigrate legally.
    Posted by: d.a.n at April 30, 2006 2:23 AM
    Comment #144279

    AWM,

    The boots may be new, but this ain’t my first rodeo.

    Posted by: Rocky at April 30, 2006 2:23 AM
    Comment #144280

    Dan,

    Posted in the “Nothing Gringo Day”

    “David I heard a comment on a local talk show today that made a lot of sense.

    The speaker sugested that those illegals that that came in and could prove they had a job could stay temporarily pending a background check. Those caught without a job get shipped home to where ever home is. Felons when found go to jail pending deportation.
    I would suggest a token fine for those that are already employed, but make it reasonable.
    Open up the construction jobs to build the fence to those “guest workers” that signed in, so to speak, and pay a reasonable wage.

    Nail all employers found to have illegals that aren’t signed up, and make the penalty stiff, really stiff.

    The burden of proof needs to be on the employers.
    There are those that are obviously illegal, but they’re getting hired anyway.
    Call it a cost of doing business as Ron said.


    Posted by: Rocky at April 28, 2006 05:49 PM

    Posted by: Rocky at April 30, 2006 2:27 AM
    Comment #144281

    awm,

    even old awm knows im was just using reverse sarcasim$$— look like he proved his point$$$—
    The only possible meaning of the phrase “reverse sarcasm” is that lm was not being sarcastic at all. Since there’s no evidence that lm was being sarcastic, I have to agree.

    Now the only thing I’m confused about is what sort of point was lm getting at, much less prove?

    Posted by: Charles Wager at April 30, 2006 2:30 AM
    Comment #144282

    Rocky look smug $$$—-and smart$$$— btw where did you learn math$$$—

    Posted by: angry white man at April 30, 2006 2:34 AM
    Comment #144283

    Rocky,

    I’d prefer no amnesty of any kind.
    Background checks can get extremely expensive and inaccurate.
    I really do not see that as anything but a clever delaying tactic.

    If we eliminate all the freebies and magnets, and offer to pay and assist illegal aliens to return to their homeland, then there will be nothing to make them want to stay.

    kkk’s ? … that’s a good one; clever; : )

    BTW,
    I don’t hate illegal aliens that merely come here for work.
    It really is not a race, ethnicity, color, or nationality thing.
    It’s just common sense.
    We can’t accommodate everyone that wants in.

    I think you’ve already said the same yourself?
    The inflow has to be stopped?

    Posted by: d.a.n at April 30, 2006 2:36 AM
    Comment #144284

    AWM,

    “Rocky look smug $$$—-and smart$$$— btw where did you learn math$$$—”

    Notre Dame Prep class of 1970.

    Where did you learn how to spell?

    Posted by: Rocky at April 30, 2006 2:38 AM
    Comment #144285

    Dan,

    “BTW,
    I don’t hate illegal aliens that merely come here for work.
    It really is not a race, ethnicity, color, or nationality thing.
    It’s just common sense.
    We can’t accommodate everyone that wants in.”

    I haven’t ever accused you of racism.
    That said this thread and most like it have been hijacked by those that aren’t subtle at all in their racism.

    “I’d prefer no amnesty of any kind.
    Background checks can get extremely expensive and inaccurate.
    I really do not see that as anything but a clever delaying tactic”

    I never said amnesty, I said that those that can prove that they already have a job pay a reasonable fine and continue to do the jobs they have as guest workers.

    If you think that background checks are expensive, just how much do you think deporting 12.4 million people is going to cost?

    Posted by: Rocky at April 30, 2006 2:47 AM
    Comment #144286

    DAg nab it, y’all can’t have Mexico. I’m going there to have a trippy retirement, eating bananas and have a siesta, after a lil’ mota.

    Posted by: Jack Mohammedoff at April 30, 2006 3:27 AM
    Comment #144289

    Max:

    I’m sorry that I didn’t respond to you, but by the time I saw your comment, a million additional comments had been posted.

    Since you asked again, here’s my take copied from my post above on the figures provided regarding expenses associated with hosting illegal aliens:

    … I’m not disputing your facts, I am just saying that they don’t mean what you say they do. It is necessary to evaluate the costs associated with hosting illegals on a regional basis, not a national basis, since they draw resources from regional funding sources, not national funding sources. …
    Posted by: goodkingned at April 29, 2006 05:30 PM

    Since illegal aliens tend to be concentrated in border states, these states incur the bulk of the expense for providing medical, educational and social services. America would be able to absorb this expense if the costs were divided evenly throughout the fifty states. However, Texas or California end up paying not 1/50th of the cost but 1/10 of the cost (strictly my estimate). That’s why I say that it is not statistically useful to use only national data to examine the fiscal effect of the problems associated with illegal immigration.

    Governors and legislators of border states have been making this point for years with increasing urgency.

    Posted by: goodkingned at April 30, 2006 5:27 AM
    Comment #144290

    Instead of annexing Mexico, especially since there are illegals from all over the world in the US, here are a few other suggestions:
    1. Nobody wants to hear “send them back where they came from,” so send them somewhere else. It doesn’t matter where, just not here.
    2. Put them in military uniforms and send them to Iraq. Can you say “decoy.” This puts them to good use and gets them out of here.
    3. The key word here is ‘illegal,’ so lets do prisoner exchange we keep theirs and send them ours. Oh, thats right they’d just come back.
    4. Maybe annexing is a good idea. Then wealth liberals could find good help to scrub their toilets and do their gardening. You know like now, but without the guilt.
    5. If we did annex them, they wouldn’t be the 8th largest oil producing country. We’d have to close all the oil fields. You know to save the environment.

    Posted by: Harry O. at April 30, 2006 7:34 AM
    Comment #144292
    Rocky wrote: I haven’t ever accused you of racism. That said this thread and most like it have been hijacked by those that aren’t subtle at all in their racism.
    Rocky, I didn’t mean to say or imply that you did. I don’t recall you ever doing that.
    Rocky wrote: I never said amnesty, I said that those that can prove that they already have a job pay a reasonable fine and continue to do the jobs they have as guest workers.
    Oh. Well, I’d prefer not to do that either.
    Rocky wrote: If you think that background checks are expensive, just how much do you think deporting 12.4 million people is going to cost?
    It’s not really the cost so much (a one time cost, if the border are secure) as it is that the background checks would take a very, very long time. If we eliminate the freebies and magnets, many will leave voluntarily. Posted by: d.a.n at April 30, 2006 9:10 AM
    Comment #144293

    LMAO !!!!

    I’ve been away from the site for awhile, but absolutly nothing has changed. Liberals still want to give everyone everything and won’t say how to pay for it. I read the original post as it was intended - tongue in cheek sarcasim. How is it that it has devolved into accusations of rasism, bigotry and calling for the impeachment of Bush? How the hell do you people get here from there?

    The anger and frustration from both sides needs to be funneled into useful debate and action. Name calling and head banging do no good. Illegals and just that - ILLEGAL. The definition is “against the law” We are a country of laws. We live and die by them. Americans live and die by them. If people come to our country without the proper authorization - no matter WHERE they come from, they need to be sent back.

    I honestly don’t care if they do the jobs Americans don’t want. Hey, you want lettuce? Pay a decent wage to pick it and it’ll get picked. Same with housekeepers and nannies and gardeners. Pay a decent wage or do it yourself.

    My main issue with illegals is that they don’t pay into social security, federal or state income taxes, school taxes, etc… They don’t pay for the firemen who put out fires in thier homes, police officers who answer the calls of domestic violence, drugs, assalts where they live, the head start programs that teach thier kids, the public schools who have migrant children for different parts of the year. This is the real issue. Who pays for this stuff? I do. You do.

    I still enjoyed the post - made me laugh.

    Posted by: Ilsa at April 30, 2006 9:13 AM
    Comment #144294

    d.a.n.

    Your links all end up at your own blog, or other opinion sites. I’d prefer links to actual news articles or government/university studies rather than quotes from editorials held up as fact. That is - only if you actually want to be convincing.

    The twisting of statistics at your own site is downright mind numbing.

    -Burt

    Posted by: Burt at April 30, 2006 9:15 AM
    Comment #144295

    Dan, remember you have to deal in feelings. warm fuzzies so they will feel validated and useful not illegal and a drain on the system they really are. $20 dollars for a day in the lettuce field and $5000 drain on the school medical and welfare system. Tell them how important it is for them to be here and how much that $20 contributes to our economy. Validate them and they can feel all warm and toasty inside. But do not confuse them with statistics or facts, it only gives them a headache and confuses them.

    come on now pickers and show me a racist statement.

    Posted by: lm at April 30, 2006 9:43 AM
    Comment #144298

    Burt,
    Those 100+ links point to GAO reports, University reports, experts on the topic, and editorials too (with references).
    You need to do your homework better, and then you will be able to participate in a more informed manner.
    Even the editorials provide sources and bibliographies.
    You could not have possibly visited all 100 links.
    Some people will believe what they want to believe no matter what the facts are.
    That’s what is truly mind numbing.

    Burt, if you don’t like the facts you see, disprove them (good luck).
    Start with the GAO-05-646 and GAO-05-337.
    If you’ll read GAO-05-337R , you see for yourself what the crime rates and numbers are.

    Then, read GAO-HEHS-98-30 to see the levels of welfare usage in 1997 alone (ten years ago).

    Burt,
    Did you know that 95% of arrest warrants for homicide in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

    lm,
    Right. I expect that will be next.
    When logic no longer works, some resort to playing the race card.
    That’s so much easier than dealing with facts.
    Classic.


    Ilsa,
    I’m with you.
    We can’t make the pie any bigger.
    We can all live at the expense of everyone else.

    Posted by: d.a.n at April 30, 2006 10:26 AM
    Comment #144299

    We can not all live at the expense of everyone else.
    That is a myth perpetuated by irresponsible, pandering incumbent politicians trying to buy votes.
    Irresponsible politicians want votes and cheap labor for their greedy employers of illegal aliens (an under-paid underclass).
    What everyone glosses over is how those wanting to keep the cheap labor, practically amounts to slave labor. They want to try to paint it as something benevolent, but the truth is, voters are footing the bill, at a net loss of over $70 billion per year.

    Posted by: d.a.n at April 30, 2006 10:29 AM
    Comment #144301

    Here is an article for all to ponder

    FrontPageMagazine.com
    “Hezbollah, Illegal Immigration, and the Next 9/11”

    All illegal immigrants should be legally emmigrated.

    Posted by: tomh at April 30, 2006 11:33 AM
    Comment #144302

    tomh,

    It’s ok, we invaded Iraq and everything’s going to be fine.

    Posted by: Rocky at April 30, 2006 11:49 AM
    Comment #144318

    TALK ABOUT FEELING ALIENATED IN “OUR” COUNTRY.

    I WENT TO MY NEIGHBORHOOD SUPERMARKET “GONZALES NORTHGATE SUPERMARKET”, SHOPPING FOR COUGH SYRUP ONLY TO FIND OUT THAT OUT OF ABOUT 30 EMPLOYEES ONLY WAS ABLE TO HELP ME,NO ONE, COULD SPEAK IN DAM ENGLISH. IT WAS FRUSTRATING AS HELL FOR ME,NOT TO MENTION THEY DIDNT EVEN HAVE THE AMERICAN BRAND BUT OF COURSE THEIR VERY OWN SYRUP ALONG WITH EVERYTHING ELSE.

    IF WE LEGALIZE 11 MILLION OF THEM,THEN GOD HAVE MERCY ON AMERICA. WHITE HOUSE BE PREPARED TO REPOSITION YOURSELVES BECAUSE YOU’LL BE HISTORY.

    ALL IT TAKE IS FOR ONE IN THE BIG HOUSE. AND JUST LIKE RABBITS THEY MULTIPLY. OF COURSE WITH THIER OWN KIND.

    GOD HELP US!!!


    Posted by: shirley at April 30, 2006 1:36 PM
    Comment #144320

    When you see a group of illegal workers standing on a corner waiting for an employer to come by in a pickup truck and you see the truck roll in and 2,3,6 of the workers hop in the back and ride off, you can bet your last dollar that the employer is not only violating the law by hiring the illegals but, that he is also violating the tax laws of the fed. and state governments.

    You can safely bet that he is not withholding income taxes for those workers. He is not withholding social security taxes nor paying his employer contribution to S.S.

    You can bet that he is not paying into the states unemployment fund and not paying into workers compensation insurance.

    you can bet your last dollar that he is creating an unfair advantage for himself and those workers over the American workers who do pay their taxes and his competing employers who do hire legal workers and who do pay into the proper federal and state departments.

    Posted by: jlw at April 30, 2006 1:51 PM
    Comment #144324

    jlw,

    You’ve got it right…it is not the illegal alien who is in the wrong, he’s only looking for work, and who can blame him? It’s the employer who is in the wrong. We always seem willing to punish the wrong criminal. Fine and jail those who employ illegals and the illegals would disappear. They won’t stay in the U.S. if there is no work…

    Posted by: Marysdude at April 30, 2006 2:04 PM
    Comment #144325

    jlw,

    “you can bet your last dollar that he is creating an unfair advantage for himself and those workers over the American workers who do pay their taxes and his competing employers who do hire legal workers and who do pay into the proper federal and state departments.”

    Not to be a fly in the ointment, but how many of those illegals are being whisked off by home owners doing unlicenced projects illegally on their own homes?

    These guys are hanging out at the Home Depot 7 days a week.
    Surely these aren’t all business owners trying to gain an advantage.

    Posted by: Rocky at April 30, 2006 2:05 PM
    Comment #144327

    seriously, Employers get 6 months amnesty to clean up their act. Report all illegal immigrant workers for deportation. report any illegal immigrants who apply for employment. After 6 months confiscate all property of violators and sell it in public auction and use the money to deport illegal immigrants. You know kinda like the war on drugs where the Police department uses confiscated property and sells in at auction and uses the money for the war on drugs.

    War on illegal immigration. The proper way to stop this flood is plug the border and stop the job market. fines won’t deter many businesses but when they loose it and become felons themselves it will dry up the job market.

    Amnesty darn straight, give 6 months to employers and then lower the boom. with the money we save on free medical alone will hire more police to get this done.

    Posted by: lm at April 30, 2006 2:23 PM
    Comment #144329

    IM,

    “seriously, Employers get 6 months amnesty to clean up their act. Report all illegal immigrant workers for deportation. report any illegal immigrants who apply for employment”

    So you’re willing to give amnesty to those that have broken the law by creating the jobs that drew the illegals to America in the first place, but screw those that broke the law by coming here to find a better life?

    Oh, the irony.

    Posted by: Rocky at April 30, 2006 2:32 PM
    Comment #144332

    I agree with Eric. If the entire population of Mexico want to become a part of the US, then perhaps Mexico should surrender it’s country to the United States. Eventually there won’t be a “Mexico” in the maps anymore and the main language would still be ENGLISH. The schools there would be taught in English, and as far as the resources they have that you’ve mentioned, will belong to the United States and they’ll use it to do what’s best for the United States. There won’t be any more Mexican Officials to ruin it’s country… Now, let’s all make it happen!

    Posted by: Fl0wErGiRl_USA at April 30, 2006 2:45 PM
    Comment #144334

    I don’t have any answers to the problem of illegal immigration. Nor will my post add anything of substance to the debate. I just wanted to make a personal point.

    It has long been said that to avoid conflict in social, work and even family gatherings, avoid the topics of religion and politics.

    Illiegal immigration seems to be joining that taboo duo, bringing out equally strong emotions on both sides of the issue.

    And we all know what can happen in a friendly debate when our emotions get out of hand. Lifelong friendships and even family ties have been irreparably damaged.

    That illegal immigration is a huge problem for the United States is undeniable. What to do about it is where we find ourselves between the proverbial rock and a hard place.

    We can’t round up and ship unkown millions of people back to where they come from. That’s not realistic. And, whether we like it or not, illegal immigrants represent a large part of our economy.

    Building a fence or some other kind of impenetrable barrier along thousands of miles of our borders, creating, in essence, a country within a cage, should be reprehensible to all freedom-loving Americans.

    So, what do we do?

    One thing we can’t do is to approach this problem with our emotions on our sleeves. Name-calling and finger-pointing will solve nothing.

    If there is ever to be a solution to the problem of illegal immigration, it will come of thinking with out brains, not our hearts.

    But, like all difficult, emotion-laden issues, we may find the solution personally distasteful and maybe even painful.

    And, in the end, it may even ask us to redefine what it is that makes us Americans.


    Posted by: ulysses at April 30, 2006 2:50 PM
    Comment #144335

    jlw

    I lived in Houston, Texas for almost 20 years and watched the transformation of the labor force from predominately black/white and a few hispanics and then to predominately hispanic. In fact, I was effectively forced to shut down my home improvment business (Personal experience from ‘89 - ‘98). I could not compete since I refused to hire from the cheap labor pool gathered in parking lots of vacant gas stations that I considered to be illegal aliens. Now, and for the last 7 years, I live in Florida and I am witnessing the same thing here - for all practical purposes an illegal alien invasion.

    My observations over the last 27 years is that the common, hard working hispanic citizens of Central America (primarily of Mexican descent) are achieving what Santa Anna and his army couldn’t do - run the gringos off “their land”. With much reservation for fear of being accused of falling off the back of a truck and bumping my head, amongst other things :-), I would like to suggest a conspiracy by the hispanic community, legal and otherwise, is well under way that requires a great deal of resistance. The silent majority can no longer be silent!!

    No jobs, no handouts, no birth rights, no place to hide, no amnesty, no guest worker program, no reason to stay in or come to the USA illegally.

    Posted by: Terry C at April 30, 2006 2:53 PM
    Comment #144336

    ulysses,

    “One thing we can’t do is to approach this problem with our emotions on our sleeves. Name-calling and finger-pointing will solve nothing.”

    Yeah, but getting there is half the fun.

    Posted by: Rocky at April 30, 2006 2:54 PM
    Comment #144338

    Need to check my posts a little closer.

    “If there is ever to be a solution to the problem of illegal immigration, it will come of thinking with OUT brains, not our hearts” should have read “thinking with OUR brains, not our hearts.”

    Sorry

    Posted by: ulysses at April 30, 2006 2:57 PM
    Comment #144346

    Rocky, it is not ironic at all. no jobs no illegals. go home and reform your own country and don’t come back unless you are willing to honor Old Glory and our rule of law. The only reason Mexicans can get so many businesses going to date is they ( poor minority) gets a heck of a break. handouts both side of the issue. medical, welfare, and also business loans.

    go home and reform mexico. If any amnesty make it for the poor old business owners.

    Posted by: lm at April 30, 2006 3:51 PM
    Comment #144348

    Im,

    “Rocky, it is not ironic at all. no jobs no illegals. go home and reform your own country and don’t come back unless you are willing to honor Old Glory and our rule of law.”

    So when the employers thumb their noses at the “rule of law”, you’re ok with that?

    The laws are already on the books, and American small business has already exploited the illegals.
    The employers have built their business by breaking your “rule of law”, and should shoulder the greater part of the blame for this mess, and therefore should pay ther price for their arrogance.

    Posted by: Rocky at April 30, 2006 4:02 PM
    Comment #144349

    Here is a link to The Law Against Hiring or Harboring Illegal Aliens for everybodies info

    Posted by: Terry C at April 30, 2006 4:21 PM
    Comment #144351

    Oops - that didn’t work too well. The page is at : http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecentersbcdd I’ll continue to work on my HTML.

    Posted by: Terry C at April 30, 2006 4:24 PM
    Comment #144363

    they will pay the price. they will be felons if they do not follow the amnesty. the illegals will pay the price if they do not go home. what do you want, criminals to get citizen ship just because they are here. everyone has six months to get right, get out or lose it all.

    seems fair to me. no jobs no criminals no illegals. they can apply for work visa’s. just like always you want everything handed to you for nothing. medical, school, welfare, small business loans ect.

    come on and get real if ya want to work it out.

    what is your plan?

    Posted by: lm at April 30, 2006 5:57 PM
    Comment #144364

    Ilsa,

    I read the original post as it was intended - tongue in cheek sarcasim. How is it that it has devolved into accusations of rasism, bigotry and calling for the impeachment of Bush? How the hell do you people get here from there?
    I don’t think anyone called the original post racist. I certainly don’t find it so. Perhaps you were confused because you didn’t read all the ensuing posts. There are a couple of ignorant posts that do nothing to contribute to the discussion. Instead, they just spew a few lines of hatred towards Mexicans—not just illegal workers, but all Mexicans. This is what is racist, and all your cries about playing the race card don’t change that. For example:

    we could annex mexico. then we could use it to put our trash in as it is a trash heap anyway. Don’t rats come out of trash dumps?
    ALL IT TAKE IS FOR ONE IN THE BIG HOUSE. AND JUST LIKE RABBITS THEY MULTIPLY. OF COURSE WITH THIER OWN KIND.

    How are these comments not racist? How do they contribute to anything productive on this forum? I am personally for stronger border control, and not at all convinced that amnesty is the way to go. However, comments like the above are quickly pushing me to be more sympathetic towards the illegals. You can claim all you want that the above postings were just continuing the original posters air of sarcasm, but it’s bullshit. Playing the “sarcasm” card doesn’t work here (especially considering there’s no actual sarcasm in their posts—just insults).

    d.a.n.,

    When logic no longer works, some resort to playing the race card.
    That’s so much easier than dealing with facts.
    Classic.
    Your posts are usually very level-headed, even when I don’t agree with your position (I do much of the time). I’m surprised to see you jumping on Ilsa’s bandwagon so readily. Nobody has called you a racist—are you saying you support the hateful comments I copied above? Am I overlooking any “facts” in what they said?

    Posted by: Charles Wager at April 30, 2006 5:58 PM
    Comment #144366

    I’m not a racist, Im a rational. what would you call a grocery store that employed 99.9% mexican in a very diverse community. My son applied and was discriminated against because he didnt speak fluent spanish? Give me a break. If you can give them aloan to create a chain of grocery stores, why dont you lend it to them in there own back yard not ours. How dare you.

    p.s have your children do your domestic work. SEND THEM BACK!

    Posted by: shirley at April 30, 2006 6:49 PM
    Comment #144369
    I’m not a racist, Im a rational.
    I can’t and won’t make judgements on your character and motiviations—just on your comments. And your comment was racist.
    AND JUST LIKE RABBITS THEY MULTIPLY. OF COURSE WITH THIER OWN KIND.
    How is this statement rational?
    My son applied and was discriminated against because he didnt speak fluent spanish?
    If it was a case of illegal discrimination, then I suggest you have your son file a lawsuit against them. If it was legal for them to do so, then that’s their right as a business owner. You’re not even talking about illegal immigrants here (I don’t know of any illegals that can get away with opening their own grocery store). It just sounds like you have a personal vendetta against Mexicans, because your son didn’t get the job he wanted.
    p.s have your children do your domestic work. SEND THEM BACK!
    I have no children, and I do my own domestic work, but thanks for the advice.
    Posted by: Charles Wager at April 30, 2006 7:13 PM
    Comment #144370

    (I don’t know of any illegals that can get away with opening their own grocery store). It just sounds like you have a personal vendetta against Mexicans, because your son didn’t get the job he wanted.

    where have you been. Remember, no one can check up on them because it might be showing bias against someone due to nationality. I am pretty sure some illegals have businesses.

    it seems that it is only a stores right to discriminate if they are mexican.

    what a racist remark.

    Posted by: lm at April 30, 2006 7:43 PM
    Comment #144371

    Oh, the irony.

    Posted by: Rocky at April 30, 2006 7:58 PM
    Comment #144375
    where have you been. Remember, no one can check up on them because it might be showing bias against someone due to nationality. I am pretty sure some illegals have businesses.
    I’m sure they do to—but not grocery stores. A grocery store has to rent space, buy inventory, obtain licenses, etc. If you can find me an example of a grocery store owned by an illegal immigrant, I will show you how to get it shut down.
    it seems that it is only a stores right to discriminate if they are mexican.
    That is your opinion, not mine. In certain situations it’s legal and appropriate to refuse to hire someone because they don’t speak a required language. I can’t make a judgement as to shirley’s son not being hired—I don’t know enough of the details or the relevant law.
    what a racist remark.
    What bullshit!
    Posted by: Charles Wager at April 30, 2006 8:31 PM
    Comment #144380

    Since I doubt the USA will annex Mexico there may be another way naturally so here is a proposal. Instead of spending tax dollars “rounding up” or “blending” illegal aliens into our society, let’s spend the money taking away the incentives for staying or coming here illegally in the first place by:

    1. developing a tamper resistant work/visitor/education visa and Social Security card with information accessible to employers for immediate verification of an job applicant’s status (similar to using a credit card)

    2. enforcing laws intended to combat illegal entry already on the books as vigorously as the illegal drug, murder, rape or burglary laws - penalize employers to the limit of the law and deport their alien employees not a fugitive from the law for unrelated crimes.

    3. creating new laws to plug the immigration loop holes - such as preventing sanctuaries, prohibiting anchor baby practice and make reporting illegal aliens everybody’s responsibility

    4. stopping all forms of public assistance.

    5. securing the borders to prevent contraband and/or criminals from crossing.

    No jobs, no public assistance, no birth rights, no place to hide, no reason to stay or come to the US illegally. Through attrition, the aliens will leave in due time.

    P.S. Something interesting happened on 4/28/06 because recent raids by Feds. It was reported that a large number of the construction and agriculture workers here in Florida did not show up for work that day for fear of being caught. A few more days off (like tomorrow) and others will take the vacated jobs in addition to depleting the alien’s money.

    Posted by: Terry C at April 30, 2006 8:55 PM
    Comment #144383

    Part of the first paragraph of my post is supposed to look like this:

    Instead of spending tax dollars rounding up or blending illegal aliens into our society, let us spend the money taking away the incentives for staying or coming here illegally in the first place by:

    Posted by: Terry C at April 30, 2006 9:03 PM
    Comment #144384

    May 1 will be employers get clean day. when all the Criminal Activist walk out on their illegal jobs, the employer can claim that they did not know they were illegal until then. They can fire them and boy will it be a kick in the butt for stupid people flying mexican flag.

    ha ha ha that will be so funny.

    Posted by: lm at April 30, 2006 9:05 PM
    Comment #144389
    Charles Wager wrote: d.a.n.,
    d.a.n wrote: When logic no longer works, some resort to playing the race card. That?so much easier than dealing with facts. Classic.
    Your posts are usually very level-headed, even when I don’t agree with your position (I do much of the time). I’m surprised to see you jumping on Ilsa’s bandwagon so readily. Nobody has called you a racist—are you saying you support the hateful comments I copied above? Am I overlooking any “facts” in what they said?

    Charles,
    I checked the posts above, and you are correct.
    My apologies.
    Nobody on this thread played the race card.
    I got mixed up. Because, on almost every thread about this issue, someone did.
    On the “Nothing Gringo Day” thread, and many others, I have been called a racist, jackbooted Nazi, whitey, cruel, etc., etc., etc.

    I checked Ilsa’s post. She wrote the following which I agree with:

    LMAO !!!!
    The anger and frustration from both sides needs to be funneled into useful debate and action. Name calling and head banging do no good. Illegals and just that - ILLEGAL. The definition is “against the law”.
    … I honestly don’t care if they do the jobs Americans don’t want. Hey, you want lettuce? Pay a decent wage to pick it and it’ll get picked… .
    My main issue with illegals is that [not all] they don’t pay into social security, federal or state income taxes, school taxes, etc…
    [Not all] They don’t pay for the firemen who put out fires in thier homes, police officers who answer the calls of domestic violence, drugs, assalts where they live, the head start programs that teach thier kids, the public schools who have migrant children for different parts of the year. This is the real issue. Who pays for this stuff? I do. You do.

    Most of it I agree with.
    She’s right about “anger and frustration from both sides needs to be funneled into useful debate and action”
    She is mistaken about the taxes thing, since about 50% of illegal aliens pay some taxes. Unfortunately, we’re talking about low skill/low wage jobs, so the tax base is small.

    However, I do beleive Ilsa and other U.S. citizens are within their rights to be very unhappy about the $70 billion dollar tab (per year, which does not even include many costs associated with crime, disease, insurance, and displaced workers).

    Was there something else that Ilsa said that bothered you?
    Perhaps I missed something?
    I’ve seen far, far worse in many recent threads in every column.

    But, rather than try to base my opinion on what some one else said, perhaps it would be better to determine exactly which part of what either said that you disagree with?

    I wrote in response to Ilsa’s single comment above:


    Ilsa,
    I’m with you.
    We can’t make the pie any bigger.
    We can not all live at the expense of everyone else.

    … because I do agree with Ilsa about the unfairness of U.S. citizens footing the net losses of about $70 billion per year.

    We need to realize that crooked politicians are the problem here, and illegal aliens and U.S. tax payers are both victims.
    I do not hate illegal aliens merely for coming here to find work.
    But, that does not diminish the need to secure the borders, stop the massive inflow (about 1 million per year), eliminate the magnets, and prosecute greedy employers that perpetuate the under-paid, under-class, while causing a shift of huge cost burdens onto U.S. tax payers.

    Posted by: d.a.n at April 30, 2006 9:40 PM
    Comment #144392

    Sorry, but for the mess above.
    The PREVIEW did not look like that.
    The software has a problem on cut-and-pasted apostrophes. There was one in the word don’t immediately preceding the beginning of the first strike-out.
    ____________ here’s a retry _____________


    Charles Wager wrote:
    d.a.n.,

    d.a.n wrote:
    When logic no longer works, some resort to playing the race card.
    That?so much easier than dealing with facts.
    Classic.

    Your posts are usually very level-headed, even when I don’t agree with your position (I do much of the time). I’m surprised to see you jumping on Ilsa’s bandwagon so readily. Nobody has called you a racist—are you saying you support the hateful comments I copied above? Am I overlooking any “facts” in what they said?

    Charles,
    I checked the posts above, and you are correct.
    My apologies.
    Nobody on this thread played the race card.
    I got mixed up. Because, on almost every thread about this issue, someone did.
    On the “Nothing Gringo Day” thread, and many others, I have been called a racist, jackbooted Nazi, whitey, cruel, etc., etc., etc.

    I checked Ilsa’s post. She wrote the following which I agree with:

    LMAO !!!!
    The anger and frustration from both sides needs to be funneled into useful debate and action. Name calling and head banging do no good. Illegals and just that - ILLEGAL. The definition is “against the law”.
    … I honestly don’t care if they do the jobs Americans don’t want. Hey, you want lettuce? Pay a decent wage to pick it and it’ll get picked… .
    My main issue with illegals is that [not all] they don’t pay into social security, federal or state income taxes, school taxes, etc…
    [Not all] They don’t pay for the firemen who put out fires in thier homes, police officers who answer the calls of domestic violence, drugs, assalts where they live, the head start programs that teach thier kids, the public schools who have migrant children for different parts of the year. This is the real issue. Who pays for this stuff? I do. You do.

    Most of it I agree with.
    She’s right about “anger and frustration from both sides needs to be funneled into useful debate and action”
    She is mistaken about the taxes thing, since about 50% of illegal aliens pay some taxes. Unfortunately, we’re talking about low skill/low wage jobs, so the tax base is small.

    However, I do beleive Ilsa and other U.S. citizens are within their rights to be very unhappy about the $70 billion dollar tab (per year, which does not even include many costs associated with crime, disease, insurance, and displaced workers).

    Was there something else that Ilsa said that bothered you?
    Perhaps I missed something?
    I’ve seen far, far worse in many recent threads in every column.

    But, rather than try to base my opinion on what some one else said, perhaps it would be better to determine exactly which part of what either said that you disagree with?

    I wrote in response to Ilsa’s single comment above:


    Ilsa,
    I’m with you.
    We can’t make the pie any bigger.
    We can not all live at the expense of everyone else.

    … because I do agree with Ilsa about the unfairness of U.S. citizens footing the net losses of about $70 billion per year.

    We need to realize that crooked politicians are the problem here, and illegal aliens and U.S. tax payers are both victims.
    I do not hate illegal aliens merely for coming here to find work.
    But, that does not diminish the need to secure the borders, stop the massive inflow (about 1 million per year), eliminate the magnets, and prosecute greedy employers that perpetuate the under-paid, under-class, while causing a shift of huge cost burdens onto U.S. tax payers.

    Posted by: d.a.n at April 30, 2006 9:47 PM
    Comment #144393

    OK,
    I give up.
    There is definitely a bug in the software.
    Here’s what is displayed.
    Everything has a strike-out now …
    Even within the HTML Formatting tips.

    Posted by: d.a.n at April 30, 2006 9:52 PM
    Comment #144395

    Charles Wager,
    I do not support the other comments in your quote. Those comments were not by Ilsa.
    This is a heated issue, and I’ve tried hard to stick to the facts.
    Some don’t want to hear the facts, and as you see above, they challenge the facts, even though they have obviously not researched it at all. The overwhelming majority of GAO reports, university reports, articles, studies, and editorials show that U.S. tax payers are experiencing a net loss that is very conservatively estimated at $70 billion.
    The years ago, in 1996, it was estimated to be $24.4 billion.
    This is not fair to U.S. tax payers.
    U.S. tax payers are well with in their rights to be upset about it. But that does not justify a hatred for illegal aliens that are merely looking for work. U.S. tax payers should focus their anger at greedy employers of illegal aliens, and bought-and-paid-for illegal aliens.

    NOTE: If your seeing this thread with strike-outs everywhere, click on the PREVIEW button, and they will disappear.

    Posted by: d.a.n at April 30, 2006 10:03 PM
    Comment #144397

    d.a.n.
    truth be told, you and I agree sometimes and sometimes not. That’s ok. Each is entitled to an opinion. I’m actually surprised that my previous post from this morning caused such a ruckus. Basically I’m for rule of law. If the law is bad, then we need to change it. Legally. Until that time, however, Illegal aliens from any country are still illegal. I don’t know about you, but I try real hard to follow the laws. Yeah, I’ve been known to break the speed limit but that’s really the limit of my lawlessness. I just believe that without the rule of law, we will fall into chaos. We are an open society and rely on our laws to protect our freedoms. If that sounds racist, then someone needs to explain that to me.

    May 1 is being touted as a day for mass boycotts by illegals to “prove” how valuable they are. OK. So what? Being usefull doesn’t make something good for us. Most illegals are hard workers just looking for a better life. Fine. But do it the legal way. It can’t really be that hard. My grandparents all came here from different countries - legally. Why should we change what has worked for so long? Just to appease some voters so some politians can get elected? Give me a break. Since when do politians do what’s good for US?

    Posted by: Ilsa at April 30, 2006 10:22 PM
    Comment #144398

    d.a.n.,

    I checked the posts above, and you are correct.
    My apologies.
    Nobody on this thread played the race card.
    Thanks.
    On the “Nothing Gringo Day” thread, and many others, I have been called a racist, jackbooted Nazi, whitey, cruel, etc., etc., etc.
    I haven’t read that thread, but with that kind of response I can’t blame you for assuming it was happening here as well. And it is all too easy to mix up threads….
    Was there something else that Ilsa said that bothered you?
    No. Some of Ilsa’s comments I agree with, some I don’t. The only part that bothered me was her statement about accusations of racism, as if the accusations were totally unfounded.
    I do not support the other comments in your quote. Those comments were not by Ilsa.
    It was only your comment to Ilsa about the race card being played that I had a problem with, not the other parts of her post. I appreciate the clarification.

    Posted by: Charles Wager at April 30, 2006 10:26 PM
    Comment #144400

    Thanks Charles.
    It is important to be very clear on this, and you are right. I was wrong. Nobody on this thread called me racist (or worse), so my comment was not justified on this thread.

    Posted by: d.a.n at April 30, 2006 10:32 PM
    Comment #144401

    Ilsa,

    We are an open society and rely on our laws to protect our freedoms. If that sounds racist, then someone needs to explain that to me.
    It doesn’t sound racist, and I didn’t mean to imply that you personally said anything racist. I do however, stand behind my accusations of racism towards the comments certain other posters made. I do understand the point you were trying to make in your previous post—I just had a problem with the way you introduced it.

    Posted by: Charles Wager at April 30, 2006 10:34 PM
    Comment #144403

    Charles,

    My reference to racism was from a post earlier than mine (I really don’t want to go back to find it) but accusations of racism are a problem on these boards. So many times we start with a decent discussion and then the insults and inuendos start and I just get frustrated. I try to stay on top of some of these issues by reading these posts and hearing what others think. I assume that most of the posters are adults with education and strong opinions. I like hearing the opinions of people I disagree with because it helps me to learn and grow. I don’t expect everyone to agree with me, but to respect my right, or anyone else’s to express an honest opinion.
    Thank you - I’ll get off my soap box now. ;)

    Posted by: Ilsa at April 30, 2006 10:46 PM
    Comment #144407
    but accusations of racism are a problem on these boards.
    I understand—unwarranted accusations of racism are a problem on this board. Accusations of racism just because one is in favor of deporting illegal aliens (or whatever position one takes on the issue) are unwarranted and wrong. I have no doubt such accusations occur on this board and I don’t support them. However, genuinely racist comments also get posted on this board on a regular basis—I don’t support those either or anyone who defends them, and I think it’s entirely appropriate to denounce them when they are posted. If you agree with this then we’re on the same page.
    Posted by: Charles Wager at April 30, 2006 11:07 PM
    Comment #144409

    And now this speaker yields the soap box… ;-)

    Posted by: Charles Wager at April 30, 2006 11:11 PM
    Comment #144411

    Ilsa,
    I agree with almost all of your comments.

    Charles Wager raised a valid issue, of which I was guilty of too. I was wrong to make the statement on this thread about some resorting to racism (but it would have been quite appropriate on the other threads).

    The only minor thing was about the taxes.
    About 50% of illegal aliens pay some taxes.
    However, it’s not enough to offset the net losses to U.S. tax payers.

    The only other thing I’d say is this:
    (1) We can not deport 12+ million people by force.
    (2) It would be advisable to assist illegal aliens, that volunteer to leave, with pre-paid transportation and funds to help make their trip back to their homeland (and allow them to take their property with them).
    (3) If we eliminate the magnets (jobs, welfare, healthcare, Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, education, college tuition, etc.), illegal aliens will leave voluntarily.
    (4) Greedy employers of illegal aliens should be fined and/or incarcerated.
    (5) Corrupt politicians supporting the greedy employers need to be voted out of office.
    (5) We need to secure the borders;
    (6) All criminal illegal aliens (crimes other than illegal immigration itself) should be deported immediately (after securing the borders)

    A majority of Americans want the problem addressed.
    What will be interesting is whether irresponsible incumbent politicians will do anything but talk, talk, talk, enforce current or new laws, and whether American voters will hold politicians accountable.

    Since the majority of Americans want the problem addressed, and most want the inflow stopped, want the borders secured, and the U.S. has the right to secure its borders, government should do so.

    But, just based on track record, I’d bet $100 dollars now that irresponsible incumbents will not do anything, or will still refuse to enforce the laws to limit illegal immigration, and voters still re-elect those very same incumbent politicians that ignore the voters.

    Posted by: d.a.n at April 30, 2006 11:27 PM
    Comment #144417

    P.S. Not sure if it’s a MovableType bug or a web-browser bug, but Internet Explorer is showing strike-throughs everywhere after:
    Posted by: d.a.n at April 30, 2006 09:40 PM

    However, Netscape and Mozilla FireFox don’t show the strike-throughs, but display question-marks for all apostrophes after:
    Posted by: Rocky at April 30, 2006 02:27 AM.

    That is consistent on three different computers running Windows XP Pro/Home.

    Posted by: d.a.n at April 30, 2006 11:52 PM
    Comment #144420

    Oh Well.

    It had to happen…

    It seems that d.a.n. has finally Broken Watchblog with one of his posts.

    [In case someone fixes it, everything is in strikeout at the present time - and I do mean *everything*: d.a.n.’s posts, everyone below d.a.n.’s posts, the Formatting Guide - *EVERYTHING*]

    I don’t know if it was the Bullet Points, the Charts and Graphs, or the Image Links.

    Probably a combination of All Of The Above, come to think of it.

    Oh well…

    :oD

    Posted by: Betty Burke at May 1, 2006 12:01 AM
    Comment #144423

    Dan, Ilsa, Charles,

    There have been comments that are unworthy of response.

    Dan, I have never accused you of anything other than being verbose, but there are those that have made thinly veiled remarks, such as what Charles pointed out.

    BTW, I don’t use any of the html formatting when I post. I am confused by the whole thing, and it just is too much of a pain to use. I did, however, find that when I right clicked and changed my format to Western Europoean (Windows), insted of Unicode everything cleared right up.

    Posted by: Rocky at May 1, 2006 12:04 AM
    Comment #144435

    Rocky: yeah, it works - until you Refresh. Then you must do it again.


    Bad d.a.n: broke WatchBlog!

    :oD

    (You will never hear the end of this, you know…)

    [pokes d.a.n. with a virtual sick]

    Posted by: Betty Burke at May 1, 2006 1:17 AM
    Comment #144441

    My Bad. I sorry. : ) LOL

    Posted by: d.a.n at May 1, 2006 1:35 AM
    Comment #144484

    Nice idea, but the wealthy cabal that runs Mexico, would not stand for it. They treat that country as their own personal piggy bank, and a growing middle class there would only siphon off billions that they would otherwise loot for themselves. They use the US as a trashcan where they put the people they cannot employ as their personal slaves.

    I have dealt with these people is business and service industry situations and they are raised from birth to believe that unless you are another Mexican billionaire, you are a servant. They are xenophobic in a way that Americans would never even consider, and hypocritical to the point that they think nothing of criticizing us for even considering the thought of protecting our country. They are everything they accuse us of being…only worse.

    Posted by: David C. at May 1, 2006 9:31 AM
    Comment #144485

    Max,
    Nice of you to stay on topic. So you think we should throw Brett Favre in jail huh? Don’t be mad just because…EVEN ON DRUGS, RUSH IS RIGHT! lol

    Posted by: David C. at May 1, 2006 9:34 AM
    Comment #144498

    Eric makes an excellent response on annexing Mexico to the United States. These people just keep coming and they won’t ever stop since the US has something that Mexicans want. If annexed to the US then the US can change Mexico to be like we are today. Mexico is a huge country and they do have good cheap property, this gives room to the ever expanding US. By overcoming Mexico the US can stop the production of illegal drugs. The US has a huge problem with drugs and they come over with illegal immigrants and drug dealers. If Mexico became a part of the US then she can further stop these drugs from entering the US. If the US can go to Iraq to help these people who supposedly want help, why can’t it just take Mexico too, besides the fact that the US is actually getting something out of it.

    Posted by: Ann at May 1, 2006 10:27 AM
    Comment #144502

    “Eric makes an excellent response on annexing Mexico to the United States. These people just keep coming and they wont ever stop since the US has something that Mexicans want. If annexed to the US then the US can change Mexico to be like we are today. Mexico is a huge country and they do have good cheap property, this gives room to the ever expanding US. By overcoming Mexico the US can stop the production of illegal drugs.”

    Talk about going from the sublime to the ridiculous.

    These folks are coming here because this is where the jobs are. The only thing that Mexico has that America wants is oil.

    Posted by: Rocky at May 1, 2006 10:48 AM
    Comment #144512

    Good grief.

    Will somebody PLEASE tell me how to get the through to you all that EMPIRE IS BAAAAD!

    What empire, in all of history, ever lasted? What empire ever failed to create enemies of all the world around them?

    Why would ANYBODY want to be an empire??

    RGF

    Posted by: RGF at May 1, 2006 11:24 AM
    Comment #144522

    It’s too late to annex Mexico.
    Mexico is annexing the U.S.

    Actually, illegal aliens might be able to run this country better.

    For instance, look at how they can organize.

    Can American’s do that? Nope.

    Look at how they can come together on an issue.

    Can American’s do that? Nope.

    Illegal aliens are voting in our elections, but 78 million eligible American voters don’t even bother.

    Perhaps this country will be better off if it is overrun by illegal aliens, since they at least have the motivation to organize for their mutual benefit.

    Americans, even if they bother to vote, just re-elect the same bozos that use and abuse them, and then wonder where they went wrong, and never hold their irresponsible incumbent politicians accountable. Just like numerous other things, politicians and Americans will forget all about this issue after the elections in November, and 12+ million illegal aliens will triple in a few years. Actually, all the hoopla has accelerated the number of illegal aliens trying to come here now.

    Sadly, Americans are like carpet. You can walk all over them, and they will rarely do anything about it … until it is too late.

    Posted by: d.a.n at May 1, 2006 12:10 PM
    Comment #144527
    Rocky wrote: d.a.n, Ilsa, Charles, There have been comments that are unworthy of response.
    Like the crickets chirping ?
    d.a.n, I have never accused you of anything other than being verbose, …

    Rocky,
    Agreed. Never meant you did.
    Verbose? Hmmm … how about just: thorough ?
    Can’t help it. Some things never change.

    Posted by: d.a.n at May 1, 2006 12:23 PM
    Comment #144547

    Here’s a rather interesting discussion on the same topic from earlier this year:

    Free Republic discussion on Annexing Mexico

    Posted by: GodBlessPeggyNoonan at May 1, 2006 1:02 PM
    Comment #144572

    By one estimate, every illegal alien household in America on average consumes at least $2,736 more in taxpayer-funded services than it pays in taxes each year. This adds a total burden that could exceed $27 billion a year on American citizen taxpayers.

    Notice it says American tax payers.

    now for the “you’re a racist” comments.

    Posted by: lm at May 1, 2006 2:17 PM
    Comment #144592

    Max,
    You asked Betty,
    Why don’t the Palestinians move to Mexico?

    Answer: Not enough Jews there for them to kill.


    Posted by: David C. at May 1, 2006 3:42 PM
    Comment #144605
    now for the “you’re a racist” comments.
    On the contrary, you surprised me! Congratulations, there’s not a single racist comment in your last post! Keep up the good work.
    Posted by: Charles Wager at May 1, 2006 4:32 PM
    Comment #144607

    you mean illegals sucking dry the welfare system is not racist. after all we are not talking Americans ya know.

    If Mexicans want to be a part of Amercia why don’t they buy a house and contribute to the school system, welfare and healthcare system?

    I mean the forgued papers they use to get a job should be good enough to buy a home.

    Posted by: lm at May 1, 2006 4:41 PM
    Comment #144612

    You want to see racist comments go to the web site and see what the plan is:

    http://wehategringos.com/whg/index.php


    seems these people forget who was here before spain.

    Posted by: lm at May 1, 2006 5:08 PM
    Comment #144613

    Now when you get to the web site look at the videos on the right side of the frames. azltan, ect. and watch them. then tell me what would happen if whitey put this on the air?

    http://wehategringos.com/whg/index.php

    Posted by: lm at May 1, 2006 5:11 PM
    Comment #144620

    Wow.

    I just went to that site. I thought d.a.n. was bad. These guys make him look tame and reasonable and open minded!

    Posted by: RGF at May 1, 2006 5:44 PM
    Comment #144630

    Dan,

    “Verbose? Hmmm how about just: thorough ?
    Cant help it. Some things never change.”

    Thorough?
    LOL

    Posted by: Rocky at May 1, 2006 6:28 PM
    Comment #144656

    lm,

    Now when you get to the web site look at the videos on the right side of the frames. azltan, ect. and watch them. then tell me what would happen if whitey put this on the air?
    I’ve got news for you—whitey does put it on the air:

    O’Reilly claimed to have exposed the “hidden agenda” behind the immigrant rights movement: “the browning of America”

    Yes, racism is not a white-only scourge, it happens everywhere and against everyone. Much of the racism we’re seeing directed towards whites is in response to racism—both perceived and real—directed towards immigrants. That doesn’t make it right—racism should be condemned no matter which group is perpetuating it. Are you saying you believe otherwise? Do you somehow think you have a “moral” right to be racist because you believe they started it?

    Racism clouds an issue that is already too complex and ignites emotions that are already too heated.

    Posted by: Charles Wager at May 1, 2006 8:46 PM
    Comment #144668

    thanks charlie you prove my point. inmates wanting to run the assylum.

    I love it when yous guys try to make a point.

    Posted by: lm at May 1, 2006 9:24 PM
    Comment #144674
    inmates wanting to run the assylum. I love it when yous guys try to make a point.
    I find it amusing that you think you’re on the outside of the asylum. I suggest in the future you try weaving your baskets out of a material stronger than straw.
    Posted by: Charles Wager at May 1, 2006 9:39 PM
    Comment #144684

    I don’t have to weave baskets that is what yous guys are for. you know jobs we won’t do. if yous guys had to pay for your food, medical and school, you could no work for peanuts. yous guys would have to get a real wage to support yous self.

    Posted by: lm at May 1, 2006 10:02 PM
    Comment #144689


    RGF wrote:
    Wow. I just went to that site. I thought d.a.n. was bad. These guys make him look tame and reasonable and open minded!

    … with regard to:


    You want to see racist comments? Go to the web site and see what the plan is:
    wehategringos.com

    RGF, you are clearly implying that I am racist, but only to a lesser degree.

    I’ve noticed that, often, those that go about looking for such opportunites to make such implications of others, are in fact usually the true racist.

    Please find anything I have said that is racist.

    Here are some of your comments.
    Read them, and then tell us who is racist.

    A while back …

    RGF wrote:
    d.a.n., I love your pragmatic, although mildly cynical outlook. You are a bit cynical (but not unduly so), and yet optimistic. That’s great! I agree with your assessment, completely.


    RGF wrote:
    Your posts are peppered with references to Mexico and Mexicans and yet you purport to have not pleyed the race card.

    False. I’ve said many times that illegal aliens are from all over the world.

    RGF wrote: You cannot make the distinction between car thieves and murderers and Mexicans.
    False. I’ve never said any race or ethnicity were all murders or thieves.
    RGF wrote: You were the ONLY one to play the race card in this issue.
    False. If that’s true, prove it.
    RGF wrote: It’s sad to imagine you think referencing the previous waves of immigration is any way rascist.
    False again. I’ve never brought race or ethnicity into the immigration issue. If so, prove it.
    RGF wrote: Assuming that ALL undocumented Mexicans in this country are murderers and car thieves clearly is.
    False again. I’ve never said such a thing.
    RGF wrote: d.a.n. , Are you Native American? I simply don’t buy that you are native american and yet don’t instantly jump at the chance to identify your heritage.
    Strange.
    RGF wrote: I’m absolutely not going to treat ALL illegal aliens like car theives and murderers just because you say so.
    Nonsense, since I’ve never advocated such a thing.
    RGF wrote: Would you have us treat everyone here who is undocumented like car theives and murderers?
    More nonsense. Once again, I’ve never advocated such a thing.
    RGF wrote: And what about the COST to us if we have NO MORE undocumented laborers in this country?
    As if the U.S. would simply crumble and cease to exist? Nonsense !
    RGF wrote: AND TREATING THEM ALL LIKE MURDERERS AND CAR THEIVES IS NOT THE ANSWER, EITHER.
    Once again, I’ve never said that.
    RGF wrote: … I believe in rule of law. Why don’t you?
    I do, which is why I’d like the laws enforced.
    RGF wrote: It simply wrong to treat an entire group as though they are ALL the same as those who are the worst within that group.
    Is there an echo in here?
    RGF wrote: Innocent until proven guilt is imperitive to our rule of law. Why do you not get that?
    Yes. Definitely. It must be an echo.
    RGF wrote: I’ve NEVER heard a peep about supposed voter fraud by the undocumented.
    Just do a search on: illegal AND alien AND voter AND fraud. Start here.
    RGF wrote: The same exact accusations you hurl at the Mexicans have been thrown before at the Irish, Italians, etc.
    False. Please show where I’ve hurled any false accusations at anyone, much less a specific ethnic group or race.
    RGF wrote: YOUR concept of law is shallow and silly. I assume you would not support the deaath penalty for American pickpockets? …how about undocumented Mexican pickpockets?
    I’m silly? LOL !
    RGF wrote: As for the rest of your sour, shalow and rediculous rhetoric…we’ll just ignore it for now.
    Fascinating indeed.
    RGF wrote: Proper handling of the legal issues here, is to deal with the murderers and car thieves as murderers and car thieves, while dealing with the undocumented as undocumented.
    There’s that echo again.
    RGF wrote: I feel sorry for the poor civics teacher who had to grade your papers and exams in high school.
    Why? I got an “A” ?
    RGF wrote: These distinctions should be nothing to the fruitcake who wants to treat entire nationalities like car thieves and murderers.
    I could not agree more, who ever that fruitcake may be.
    RGF wrote: I have fired immense amounts of evidence and analysis at people like Jack and d.a.n. only to be completely ignored or worse, got a response that was silly and clearly not about the argument or the issue at all.
    I ran across this later on another thread. It seems that some who can’t competently debate an issue on one thread feel compelled to go off to another thread and bad mouth that person to others. Very interesting.
    RGF wrote: What tribal nation are you a member of, d.a.n.?
    Hmmmmmm…where could this be leading to? I was born in Oklahoma. My great, great grandmother was Cherokee. Since when did being American become being from a tribal nation? Very odd questions for someone who deplores racism.
    RGF wrote: Do you understand now?
    RGF, I was never confused. Sorry you thought that. You could have saved yourself a lot of time.

    RGF,
    You may not agree with my viewpoints, but implying, as you did above, that I am racist, can not be substantiated. However, many of your own statements, and odd questions (above), such as “What tribal nation are you a member of, d.a.n.?” could easily be interpretted as racist. Especially since many of my ancestors are Cherokee. Are you aware that there are Indian Reservations in many states in the U.S. ? Do you have something against Indians ? Even if you don’t, your statement sounds racist to me. I don’t think Native American Indians would be amused by it.

    Posted by: d.a.n at May 1, 2006 10:11 PM
    Comment #144694
    I don’t have to weave baskets that is what yous guys are for. you know jobs we won’t do. if yous guys had to pay for your food, medical and school, you could no work for peanuts. yous guys would have to get a real wage to support yous self.
    Who are “yous guys”? If you mean white, middle-class, homeowning Americans that worked their way through school and now get paid a real wage as well as dividends from the corporation they built from the ground up…then you’ve got me pegged. Or do you actually think that anyone who doesn’t approve of racial slurs must be one of “them evil Mexicans”?
    Posted by: Charles Wager at May 1, 2006 10:44 PM
    Comment #144695

    Charles,

    Don’t you ever get tired of feeding the trolls?

    Posted by: Rocky at May 1, 2006 10:51 PM
    Comment #144696

    Rocky,

    Don’t you ever get tired of feeding the trolls?
    Eventually, but feeding them is also very recreational and a great way to relieve stress. Selfish of me, I know…

    Posted by: Charles Wager at May 1, 2006 10:58 PM
    Comment #144703

    wow man yous are a real success. man your mama can be proud of yous, I know wes are. keep up the good work and yous can give it to them when they socialize yous business.

    keep up the good work. you mean you acutually got through school.

    way to go. charlie, man yous got it together.

    Posted by: lm at May 1, 2006 11:26 PM
    Comment #144704

    Charles,

    What is really amazing is that never change.

    Posted by: Rocky at May 1, 2006 11:27 PM
    Comment #144716

    Rocky,

    This one is changing… When the trolls start to slur their words together it’s an early warning sign of food coma. I think feeding time is over for now…

    Posted by: Charles Wager at May 2, 2006 12:24 AM
    Comment #144722

    Charles,

    I have to say they can be persistent little buggers.

    A bit myopic though.

    Posted by: Rocky at May 2, 2006 12:41 AM
    Comment #247808

    the rich in Mexico will not tollerate this idea. they’ll have to start paying employees a federal minimum wage. no longer can the rich pay $1.00 per day for a personal maid. mexico likes the way things are run there and will not change. and don’t forget the 500,000 rich americans who live down there and take advantage of the cheap labor. great idea, but it will never happen.

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    Comment #381109

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