Republicans & Conservatives: Archives

I think Jack is becoming incoherent in his desperation to shill for the GOP.

Exactly, what are you implying? That Mexican Immigrants are actually contributing usefully or that they are only usefull as the orifice for human excrement?

Either the Latinos are leeches or they are not. You can’t have it both ways, Jack.

Make up your mind.

hahaahahaa good post jack

Jack,
Perhaps you can help me integrate this issue of immigration with another issue. It seems thousands of illegal immigrants are entering the US on a regular basis, and an enormous number now live here.

Meanwhile, the US is engaged in a War on Terror. Yet not one terrorist attack has been launched within the US; this, despite porous borders.

We’re in Iraq because Saddam Hussein was a threat. Yet he is still alive, his Baathists are fighting an insurgency, large sums of money fund the fighting, and yet, and yet; despite all this, not one Iraqi has ever launched an attack here in the US.

The Bush administration continually rattles sabres about the threat Iran presents to the US. In spite of the unsecured borders, no Iranian has ever launched an attack in the US.

Please explain. We’re spending as much money on Defense as the rest of the world combined, yet people seem to be entering the US at will, and none- none launch attacks against American citizens.

Was 9/11 a fluke? Why are we spending so much on defense, and invading other countries, and threatening to attack other countries? It seems like a simple thing for others to attack us, yet none do.

Please explain. I just can’t wrap my
Cheney-esque arms around the subject.

phx8:

You forgot to add that ALL of the 9/11 Hijackers were here legally.

Jack, this simple logic. We have an illegal immigration problem. In order to stop it, first a barrier must be in place to halt the flow except through check points. Second, some decision must be made about the illegals who are already here. Something along the lines of a) those in our jails or prisons are deported, ASAP, AFTER THE BARRIER IS ERECTED. b) Those without gainful employment or means are deported ASAP AFTER THE BARRIER IS ERECTED. Those who have jobs or are supported by citizen family members here are given steps and milestones to achieve in order to remain. Failing those steps or milestones, job, learn English, pass a physical exam, they are deported ASAP AFTER THE BARRIER IS ERECTED.

You see none of the secondary steps make one whit of sense until AFTER THE BARRIER IS ERECTED. Because without the barrier they will just return compounding the problem.

Now as for May 1, I say let them have their demonstration in a cordoned area entered through checkpoints where those with a U.S. birth certificate, valid driver’s license and paycheck stub, or citizen papers may enter to demonstrate exercising their Constitutional rights to assembly and speech. But, those failing to produce that paperwork are denied access and if they raise a fuss, arrest them and have them checked for legal status.

The idea of foreign nationals who broke our laws to get here, trying to shut down our businesses and schools to blackmail us into giving them what they want, is preposterous and would not be tolerated by Americans in any other country on the face of the earth. Illegal immigrants have no citizen rights and while they do have human rights, they are not entitled to interfere with citizens in this country going about their daily lives.

This is going to become violent if the authorities do not nip this illegal alien demonstration thing in the bud. That is a simple truth, regardless of whether it should, or should not be the case.

Enforcing our laws and protecting our borders are the first and foremost responsibility of the Executive Branch of government. If Bush and Gonzalez and Cheney really want to keep their numbers from slipping further, they will enforce our laws while preserving human rights. End of discussion.

Not that anyone cares for my internationalist views, but I have to reiterate my common point of the fact that immigration is a problem that is regional in nature and any single nation is ill-equipped to solve it. It is not an “American” problem, believe it or not both Mexico and Canada have problems with illegal immigration as well, specifically Mexico from its southern neighbors. Either we want an international market or we don’t. We have pursued internationalism (in economic terms) for the last 2/3 of a century now and rabidly for the last 15 years, the free flow of people is essential for regional economies to function. The problem is not how to keep people out, its how do we form a new regional organization to manage the free flow of people in an organized manner. Any other efforts are simply Recidivist or Sisyphean in nature, either way, undesirable.

-Xander

Everyone knows you cannot gather up 11 million people and send them home at one time. They did not come here at one time so no one minds if we send them back a few at a time.

Everyone knows that it would break up families to send some home so we can send the whole family home together to Mexico.

Everyone knows they want to protest and demand equal rights so go home and demand away.

They call US citizens racist but say nothing of what Mexico is doing on their southern borders.

Go home and clean your own house. If your so proud of your country then go live there. Just go.

Im,
Ah nationalist rally. Has always worked well throughout history (I seem to remember Adolf, Franco, and Stalin used it to much great success). Its funny that all of our foreign policy makers know that we are too integrated with a regional economy to pull isolationist crap, but the average public hasn’t even gotten a clue yet. Oh well. I’m a hardcore republican, but I’ve never understood the attractiveness of nationalist fever. Its so last century. Oh well, back to the ivory tower.

No one said anything about legal immigration. Illegal immigration and criminals demanding amnesty when laws are in place to accomodate them LEGALLY makes no sense. Just a thought, what is your international view when rapist, murders, and the like demand amnesty? Everyone knows you cannot gather up all the criminals at one time and lock them up. Everyone knows you do in fact gather them up when you find them and lock them up. The Journey of a thousand miles begins with one step. Let this first step of an 11 million mile journey begin with one ILLEGAL alien deported with the whole family to the county of orgin.

Then they can apply for entry in a legal and orderly manner.

Indeed. We must have a wall.

Still… it would be interesting to see the effects the May 1 Demonstration will have. Will we see David R. Remer working to clean plates? Will the Great White Man grit his teeth and wait the next day to have his garden mowed and crops picked?

The suspense is great.

Maybe they will cause some problems if they don’t show up to work. David Remer will still be the boss and he can always replace the help. More worry for David is will he still have a business if laws that are in place now shut down his business for his dish washers. Maybe he could afford to buy top of the line dishwashers that sterlize the plates and don’t walk out to demand things they are not intitled to.

America will soon have a surplus of baby boomers wanting to retire early so they might just supplement their retirement with your jobs you walk out on.

In Texas the walk out will probably be equal to black friday after thanksgiving. what with no one spending federal dollars on their lonestar card, shoplifting down to nothing, and remember people will still shop better without all the hastle of waiting in line while someone counts the change.

“I think Jack is becoming incoherent in his desperation to shill for the GOP” Al, I don’t visit this blog often, but there is only one consistent party line shill I see here when I do, and you are he.
You and those of you who yip about “jobs we won’t do…” exactly what are these jobs? I have mowed lawns, done dishes, line cook, paperboy, and most sadly, I made boxes for 8 years before landing the job I have now.
It is either simple arrogance or the desire for a permanent underclass that drives both sides of the bogus left-right to crow on about “jobs Americans won’t do” or the boogeyman named the 7-dollar head of lettuce.
I for one will be paying close attention to those stores who do shut down on May Day(the choice of day coinciding with the old USSR’s celebration which involved marching ICBMs down the road is interesting, to say the least.) I will not only do extra shopping on May Day, but will boycott everyone who chooses to shut down on that day. Hell, I may even take a vacation day to do so.
What people seem to miss is that we are a sovereign nation and have every right to decide who does and does not enter the country and become a citizen.
And to Xander, if nationalism is last century in your eyes, then so be it. You’ll be surprised in 2006 and 08 when real conservatives abandon the republican party because of “republicans” like you. Globalism is sedition and the neo-conservative pipe dream of democracy spreading is laughable. And more conservatives than ever are waking up to that. “Republicans” like you bother me far worse than people like Aldous. While I disagree with him 100% of the time, he at least UNDERSTANDS he is a liberal.
I’m genuinely not trying to insult either of you, or anyone on this blog. As I said, I’m no member here. However, I have seen nothing but un-productive left-right bickering and punditry here. 9/10 of articles posted here, as one scrolls down, he sees the same things, stated differently posted over and over again.
As long as there are “Republicans” like you preaching the global gospel, there will be people like us to fight you. And there are more of us than you would like to think.
Be well,
Bobby

Actually, Aldous, they were not.

I am not against immigration, as I have written. I am insulted at the attitude some people are taking. Nothing gringo day. Imagine if we Americans did a nothing —- day. Racism, intolerance and xenophobia aimed at us is still racism and intolerance and xenophobia.

I wrote this because I am annoyed at the whole idea. The fact is that if people do not want to work it is their problem more than mine.

I can mow my own grass and if NOBODY worked those infernal leaf blowers it would be a better world.

Every group is necessary to the working of society. Americans, ordinary Americans, are probably the most important. The U.S. produces a third of the world’s GNP, gives most of the food aid, supports ¼ of the UN, is responsible for most of the science Nobel prizes, patents etc. In a real nothing Gringo world, everybody suffers. SO the nothing Gringo folks can take a flying leap at a rolling donut. They need us more than we need them and I am sick of babying them.

BTW - most people will do fine on May 1. They will not do anything. I don’t employ any illegals. But if I did I would fire any who didn’t show up on Monday. It would be my “nothing stupid” day.

IM,

As David pointed out in his post, this is a sequential problem(screw-up by the Bush administration). It joins the many screw-ups by this administration. He should have addressed the primary issue of securing the borders prior to addressing the issue of what to do about the people who have already crossed the border and are living here.
Bruce Hare, a social scientist gives this analogy:
“If your kitchen sink is flooding your kitchen, it would be wise to turn off the leaking faucet prior to cleaning the water off the floor.”
It shows how out of touch the Bush administration is. If any of us look into the issue we would see a bi-partisan concern for border security. The morons running the country have turned the issue into a partisan, “deport them all, let god sort em out bunch of nonsense vs. They’re immigrant workers who do jobs we don’t want.”
If the people in a position to lead would have addressed the issue of border security(leaky sink) first, then asked what to do about the non-documented people who are already here(the water on the floor)it would most likely become an issue the American people as a whole could have gotten behind and supported. Bush the “unifier” and “decider” once again dropped the ball.

It sure is strange that the day that communists all over the world for decades have celebrated as their day happen to be—you got it—May 1.

Recently the company that handles the recycling and producing pallets named IFCO was hit by ICE. A good direction to go. Let’s do it again and again and again. Somebody must be smart enough out there. Not all of them are stupid, I suppose.

And lastly, those businesses who have employees AWOL for a demonstration and protest should show us their mettle. Fire them!! Report them!! Begin their trip back home.

BTW—why is it that those poverty stricken people have the thousands of dollars it takes to get here. Maybe there is something to those in CA who say they are here to take the land back they think belongs to them. Simply put, this is an invasion of a foreign force.

Hey Jack,

I thought you believed in the free market? If some people want to organize a “don’t buy whatever” day, shouldn’t you applaud their free choice?

In my house, every day is a “buy nothing from Wal-Mart” day. Both my family and Wal-Mart do fine.

And if a bunch of people want to have a “skip work” day, I say good on ‘em! It should be immediately followed up with “Hey, you’re fired” day.

Choices, consequences, and the market.

I love it.

Amen Arr-squared!

Arr-squared and Kctim,

Will firing them give us border security?NO
Will firing them force them to leave the country?NO
Will firing them satisfy the bigot that quietly and carefully lives in the heart of half this country?YES
I’d rather someone call me a spic to my face. I can respect that as a clearly stated view.

Andre:

What do you propose the US do to resolve the issue of illegal aliens?

“Will firing them satisfy the bigot that quietly and carefully lives in the heart of half this country?YES”

So if I fire someone who doesn’t show up for work I’m a bigot?

1. Create a political environment that is not so threatening so that those who are here will come forward.
2. Background checks.
3. Criminals and those not willing to be truthful will be forced to leave.
4. Those who are hard-working and honest can stay.
5. We secure our borders to keep out terrorists, not use border security to satisfy the, “keep out the mexican”bigots.
6. We create a process that regulates who is allowed to enter the country, creating a “good guy” come on in,”bad guys” stay out policy that secures the border and is welcoming to immigrants
from all nations.

your a spic. not much can be said than when you call us the great white race, cracker, gringo ect. sticks and stones ya know. some Mexican lawyer said the term illegal is equal to the N word. Well we could start calling them what they are “Criminal Immigrants.” or if all else fails we could treat Criminal Immigrants like Mexico treats someone who breaks the law in Mexico. Tit for Tat then when you get put in jail for being a criminal in the eyes of the law you will probably never be heard from again.

Protest if you must but be prepared to suffer the consequences of your actions.

su es criminal!

Is everyone here MISSING something?

Nothing “Gringo” Day? Gringo is NOT a nice word. It’s like saying “Nothing ‘WETBACK’ Day”…or “Nothing ‘WOP’ Day” or “Nothing ‘HEBE’ Day” or “Nothing ‘N-WORD’ Day”.

These people are insulting us to our faces and we don’t call them on it.

On a totally different track…I’m glad they’re here. We should make them all citizens right away.

Absolutely.

All the people (like myself) who were worried about Social Security running out…guess who will be paying in taxes to make Social Security solvent? New citizens. We should make them all citizens right away.

America is a “consumer” nation…a nation that buys more than it sells. With the influx of new citizens desperate to have a job and produce more goods than we can use, maybe we could start turning that around. Maybe we could become…dare I say it…a “producer” nation (ahh…thoe “good old days”) instead of a “consumer” nation. Talk about levelling out the trade deficit. We should make them all citizens right away.

Don’t get me wrong, I am still all for my “Buy Mexico” proposition. I think buying Mexico is the only long-term plan that makes total sense.

But if we’re NOT going to Buy Mexico…

We should make them all citizens right away.

Andre M. Hernandez

How refreshing to have someone post who actually has a plan and not just partisan sour grapes!

“It sure is strange that the day that communists all over the world for decades have celebrated as their day happen to be—you got it—May 1.”

May day is International Workers Day, which is not communist in origin but was cellebrated by communists for obvious reasons. Its meant to commemorate the people who’s efforts are unappreciated, and who make so little they can barely make it, but without whom society would not function.

god damn commies.

we have a system to say come in good guy, stay out bad guy it is called immigration policy. you apply for a card, you appy for citizenship as an American and you become a citizen after you accomplish the steps to become one. You then pledge your loyalty to the United States and you can be proud of your culture but never every fly our flag upside down under the flag of the nation you so desperately wanted to abandon else fly it in Mexico. What you all did when you flew the flag upside down under the Mexican flag is not going to be forgotten and a lot of people might just do without your services rather than tolerate your disrespect. It shows why Mexico is in the shape it is in. If you want pride in Mexico go home and make it respectable.

IM,
Thank you for confirming that this is not about policy for some people, it’s a skin color issue.
As I stated earlier, Bush sequentially screwed up. He addressed problem 2 before addressing problem 1.
Bush also didn’t count on all the”rightwing” bigots coming out of the woodwork and calling for the immediate detention and removal of immigrants already here.
I bet I can find some Native Americans who are all for rounding up all illegal aliens and shipping them back to their homelands.

I would like some clarification from the 300,000 people who plan to disrupt my workday in Chicago as to why I bothered to wait in line, file the correct forms and pay hundreds of dollars in fees in order to qualify as a legal immigrant. My answer? Respect for the rule of law and for the society that I want to live in. Any kind of amnesty or legalization is a slap in the face for those of us that came here in accordance with the rules that determine who the US wants to live here.
Economic arguments for legitimizing the status of illegal immigrants are no different from those that slaveowners used in the nineteenth century. If costs rise as a result of deporting these people, it is simply the price a society must pay for upholding its laws and having enough self-respect to decide who it allows to become a member.
If Mexico is such a hell-hole that its citizens are willing to run the risk of a painful death in the desert, then the international community should be subjecting their government to the kind of shaming that the North Koreans get. How about banning any remittances to Mexico by people that cannot prove their legal status? This would begin to force the Mexican government to start taking action to improve its citizens’ lot and also reduce the numbers of people crossing the border.

Andre M. Hernandez,

That’s the current proposal so many people are bitching about. People have to get jobs and work here for 15 years legally to stay. The rules around staying are tough.

Jack,

Please tell me why it angers Republicans so much that Mexicans may take American jobs, when you have no problem whatsoever with US companies outsourcing our jobs oversees? Is it that it’s only a problem when the crappy jobs are taken from Americans but not the good ones? And speaking of tax incentives, as you have a lot recently, would you say you agree with Kerry that tax incentives should be in place to keep work in the United States?

If I read your position correctly, it’s that Mexican workers should be sent home and our companies should go abroad and hire them?

Historically, immigrants have always come here for work, but Republican policies now send the companies elsewhere, and let me tell you what happens - the same thing that happens here. The low-level workers work their way up to more promising positions. When this happens in the States it makes our country stronger, when it happens elsewhere all you are doing is building companies and skills from the ground up in other countries. Watch and learn, India will explode with talent and companies providing services at all levels in the tech industry and boot out the American ones.

David
Your going to piss off the Liberals with your talk of erecting barriers and deporting illegals there buddy. But I happen to agree with you.
We need to get the illegal immigration problem under control, and fast. But until our bought and paid for idiots up in DC are replaced with folks that will listen to the people instead of special interest and big donors I’m afraid nothing serious is going to get done.
I don’t think this latest round of ‘get tough’ on illegals legisilation is anything more than our idiots trying to keep their ca$hy cu$hy jobs.

It is all about policy. The Government of the United States has a policy and procedure for handling immigration into the country.

Laws are established and if followed legaly meets all needs of people seeking citizenship. When you trespass on someones property their is a policy in place to deal with this also. Like Nick said it is a slap in the face of all who did what the policy required. what you want is a new policy dictated by criminal trespassers.

Criminals don’t dictate policy only in a riot condition. We have swat teams to deal with criminal riots.

Like I said I have no problem with immigration only illegal immigration. Do it right and you can then get the liberal sensation of the warm and fuzzies in your body. Not much substance but you can feel good about yourself.

the lack of border inforcement is not just bush’s problem but carter’s, Reagan’s, and especially Klinton’s. After all if Mexico were a Muslim nation clinton would have bombed the hell out of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California. Look at Serbia.

I totally agree with lm. We have a system call legal immigration, like many other countries, including Mexico. By the the way, see the link below on how Mexico treats illegal aliens. It is so hypocritical.

Legal immigration is there for a reason, many reason. To screen out criminals, control diseases, document newcomers, control numbers a country can absorb in a given year, etc. I have heard many excuses supporting or justifying illegal immigrations and they are all weak and lame. None has offer any real favorable statistics, other than slogans and playing the race card. Plus, illegal immigration is illegal. What I have seen are unfavorable statistics NOT in favor of illegal immigration due to the added economic and social costs to American citizens.

On another note. Several of those 911 terrorist got here illegally, using fake documents.

Jim T
Don’t you know, they have the right to insult us because they’re not Americans. they also have the right to demand that we support them, educate them, and give them medical care, and learn their language. All this because they’re not Americans and illegal. Why they have more rights than we do.
As Americans we have to be careful not to make these criminals feel unwelcome. After all that’s not PC.
Well I for one don’t give a shit about their feelings. They aint here legally and need to carry their asses back to Mexico. And the sooner the better.

I don’t think any of you are familiar with the proposal…

The proposal is to change the law to make being an illegal a felony. The counter proposal is to let them stay, but only if they get legal jobs and have tabs kept on them over the next 15 years or so. If they remain law-abiding, they can become citizens.

I don’t disagree with any of you that illegals broke the law, but putting them all in jail isn’t feasible. I am losing patience with Republicans and their completely batshit insane rhetoric. It’s an irresponsible proposal, because WE DON’T HAVE THE MONEY TO THROW THEM ALL IN JAIL - LET ALONE FOR TEN YEARS OR SO. I am trying to put this in a way you Reps can understand - DO YOU WANT TO PAY HIGHER TAXES TO THROW ALL THESE PEOPLE IN JAIL? Many of these people are hardworking and make real contributions to society. Why cut off your nose to spite your face? Give them the chance to stay with tough restrictions. The proposal to throw them all out is unrealistic and impossible. Republicans - spend, spend, spend, cut taxes, borrow from China, come up with more unrealistic expensive proposals.

Seriously, what happened to your party? I liked you guys better when you had no heart, but now you’ve gone and lost your brains too.

Ron, thanks for your reply. I have been pissing off liberals for years. Problem is, I piss off conservatives as well, so, to conservatives I get tagged liberal, and to liberals I get tagged conservative. The perils of being an independent voter and writer.

Common sense and logic often defy opinions held by both the right and the left. That is why our left/right run government performs so poorly. They are struggling for power, I am struggling for real and sustainable solutions to America’s problems.

Immigration is a perfect example of how many on the left and right jockey for a position that will be neutral or advantageous in Nov’s elections, rather than a real and sustainable solution to the immigration problem. On the left they want to show to the Hispanic voting block that they are more compassionate than the GOP. And on the right, they want to uphold their quid pro quo obligation to wealthy campaign donors to keep a free flow of cheap labor coming across the border.

The real and sustainable solution requires an effective border barrier backed up by rapid response interdiction for those trying to circumvent the barrier, and a rational immigration policy that fills the real needs of our economy, labor force, and safe harbor for the oppressed with naturalized citizens, NOT millions of guest workers which become an administrative nightmare to monitor and enforce.

This is why Voting Out Incumbents is the only way the voters are ever going to get politicians to commit to common sense, sustainable solutions to America’s problems.

David,

“Common sense and logic often defy opinions held by both the right and the left. That is why our left/right run government performs so poorly. They are struggling for power, I am struggling for real and sustainable solutions to America’s problems.”

This struggle for power is the reason that nothing ever gets done.

I have posted before that a border fence will be useless, as well as expensive.

One of the major problems isn’t the lack of a fence, it’s the lack of enforcement of the laws already on the books.

Here in Phoenix, for instance, if an illegal is stopped for a traffic violation, they aren’t arrested as an illegal, they are given the ticket and told to go on their way.
Employers of illegals aren’t procecuted under the current statutes or are given a slap on the wrist.

What exactly is the point of enacting new laws, if we don’t enforce the laws we already have?

What is the point of building a fence if we aren’t going to enforce the laws?

Why can’t we move all 12 million back to Mexico?
As Jay Leno said “Mexico did it”

tomh,

Somehow Mexico has to look more attractive?

When are you moving?

Ron Brown,

Oh, yeah…I forgot. Sorry.

You can call white folks “cracker”, “gringo”, “honkey”, “whitey” or whatever…but if you say “illegal”…why, you’re up to your eyeballs in PC BS.

Please accept my (in)sincere apology for pointing out racist hate speech…a very sensitive reference…made by our human brothers from south of the boarder, who, by the way, are NOT illegal. I forgot to remember that NO human is illegal.

Rocky, the laws are unenforceable without the fence to reduce the numbers crossing. The huge numbers crossing overwhelm our enforcement ability. That has been true for more than a decade now.

Yes, the fence will be expensive. Having no control of our borders is even more expensive. Defense of one’s nation is never cheap, Rocky. C’mon, a little common sense is called for here.

Jack,

You’re starting to sound like simonson.
That’s not a compliment, in case you were uncertain about something for a change.

Unless of course the A-hole you talk about is your President DickBush.

David,

“Defense of one’s nation is never cheap, Rocky. C’mon, a little common sense is called for here.”

A little common sense would have dictated that we secured the borders before we went into any war on terror.

“Rocky, the laws are unenforceable without the fence to reduce the numbers crossing.”

Unenforceable?

We’re not even trying.

There are laws against hiring illegals, if there weren’t any jobs there would be a hell of alot fewer illegals.

BTW, Rocky, explain to me how a high tension electric fence would be useless. Would anyone in their right mind try to scale an electrified fence? I should guess such a fence bounded on either side by an additional barrier with warning signs, would effectively halt about 90% of the traffic, over night. The other 10% would come by boat to coastal areas or attempt to tunnel. Seismic sensors along the fence and our very capable Coast Guard would be able to handle about 9% of that 10%. Hence, we would be left with having to deal with about 1% of the current traffic flow across our borders, who would mostly be smuggled in via cargo containers through checkpoints.

If you think a fence capable of stemming up to 99% of the illegal immigration flow across our border each year would be too expensive, we will just have to agree to disagree. For me the common sense of this is inescapable by an objective assessment.

Rocky, the numbers are so staggering that the very best our Border Patrol can do is process those they catch. I agree with you entirely that we are not enforcing our laws, and yes, employers of illegals should be prosecuted. But first, you have to devise a method for employers to definitively determine who is, and who is not, illegal. Then, you must deal with the immense problem of counterfeit identification, a rapidly growing black market in America.

All of those problems would be dramatically reduced with an electric fence.

This is a classic case where an ounce of prevention (electric fence) is worth tons of cure (law enforcement without the fence).

Jim T
Of course no person is illegal.

But some persons are immigrants.

And some persons are legal immigrants.

And some persons are illegal immigrants.

See how simple that is.

Max, you are ignoring the very valid Conservative argument that amnesty will be a lure for even greater hordes of illegals in the future.

Where Republicans get downright dense is when they back away from the border fence. It is lunacy to keep the revolving door open at the border, yet, that is what many of them want to do because their interests lie with cheap labor and/or not alienating the Hispanic Voting block at election time. For many, they want to look tough on illegal immigration without actually halting it.

David,

“BTW, Rocky, explain to me how a high tension electric fence would be useless. Would anyone in their right mind try to scale an electrified fence?”

It’s simple physics.

Do you have any idea how much current would have to be gennerated to electrify a fence 2,000 miles long, even at a low enough voltage that would deter and not kill someone?

We’re bitching about the brownouts now.
Are you willing to give up your A/C unit?

David,

“But first, you have to devise a method for employers to definitively determine who is, and who is not, illegal. Then, you must deal with the immense problem of counterfeit identification, a rapidly growing black market in America.”

Isn’t this the purvey of the FBI?

I have heard talk of a website where an employer could check the credentials of a prospective employee.
Why hasn’t anything been done on this front?
It would seem cheaper than building a fence.
It could be paid for with the fines that employers that violate the laws pay.

Senoir Hernandez said,

“I bet I can find some Native Americans who are all for rounding up all illegal aliens and shipping them back to their homelands.”

I know Montezuma and the Aztec would be all for deportation. seems they owned Mexico before the Spaniards came and destroyed it with murder and disease. In those days a flourshing well advanced society lived in Mexico. Way more so than now. You could actually drink the water.

After all the illegal immigrants of that day only wanted to work for some gold to take home! by the way didn’t the Apache and Navajo own New Mexico and Arizona before the Mexicans stole it from them? Comanche owned Texas before Mexico stole it from them? Not to mention California.

Im,

“After all the illegal immigrants of that day only wanted to work for some gold to take home! by the way didn’t the Apache and Navajo own New Mexico and Arizona before the Mexicans stole it from them? Comanche owned Texas before Mexico stole it from them?”

If you knew anything at all about Native Americans, you would know that for the most part, they didn’t belive that they owned the land, they belived themselves caretakers.

Andre:

Thanks for responding, but the devil is in the details, which you failed to provide. Simplistic answers are easy, workable plans require thought and compromise.

Do you favor the creation of more static barriers on the border? Do you favor permission to stay for workers here illegally at the expense of those immigrants waiting in line or would you just increase the quota of immigrants from the affected nations? Do you feel that immigrants should have a visible means of support set up as part of legally entering the US? Who will be responsible for the costs of hosting immigrants with no means of support?

There are a hundreds of issues to be addressed and parades aren’t going to address any of them. Employees missing work on Monday are not projecting the image of an industrious group seeking employment. Employers who are short staffed as a result of this selfindulgent stunt are being punished for offering employment. Is this the image immigrant groups want to project?

IM,

We are all immigrants.
If you want to use them for cheap labor you call them migrant guest workers. If you want to blame them for all of your woes, call them illegal aliens.
If you want to blame them for everything wrong in America you say deport the illegal immigrant alien job steling Mexicans.
I have several friends who are in this country from Ireland and are undocumented. I’d hate to see them deported. They’re good people. I also have a friend from Peru who is a hard working person who gives to his community and I would hate to see him deported also.
Once again I will reiterate that this issue could have been addressed correctly by addressing the bipartisan issue of BORDER SECURITY first, then a more productive debate on illegal immigration would have unfolded and we could enforce immigration laws as they are written and helped people like my friends stay in the United States.

The Native Americans were caretakers and very good at it. They were also very forgiving of immigrants until it was too late.

not a good time in history for how peoples treat one another.

but they did claim ownership as territorial rites went. each fought to maintain it between tribes long before immigrants from spain or europe came over, such as hunting grounds ect.

Goodkingned,

I don’t know the letter of the law on immigration, I just think that we all wanted border security beefed up(wall, fence or moat filled with sharks)We all want to secure the border. What Washington has done is skip this and sabre rattle against illegal immigrants without fixing the real problem that needed their attention first. People can then create meaningful legislation to keep the desired folks here illegally and ship criminals home. We must first plug the hole in the pipe, before we do the mopping.

I call someone here from any country without proper papers of entry Illegal Aliens. Not just from Mexico. But if anyone wants to flaunt the contribution Illegals make to this nation, consider the health care catastrophe in California that has resulted from free I repeat free medical care for anyone. Not only in Ca but also in TX. You seem to know a lot about how illegals are broken down into what they do. After all your the one who says they steal jobs. I might like to suppliment my retirement by letting one walk off because he or she thinks they are non-expendable. life goes on both sides of the border.

I’ve spent the last few minutes browsing all the posts regarding illegal aliens and have noticed a third option is missing - it’s called “attrition”.

Instead of spending tax dollars “rounding up” or “blending” illegal aliens, let’s spend the money taking away the incentives for staying or coming here illegally in the first place by:

1. developing a tamper resistant work card and Social Security card with information accessible to employers for immediate verification of an employee’s status (similar to using a credit card)

2. enforcing laws intended to combat illegal entry already on the books as vigorously as the illegal drug laws

3. creating new laws to plug the immigration loop holes - such as preventing sanctuary communities and make reporting illegal aliens everybody’s responsibility

4. stopping all forms of public assistance.

Securing our borders is a given and ranks right up there with #1 and the results are like this; No jobs - no place to hide - no handouts - no reason to come here illegally and/or remain!!

As for being offensive or PC - those who cross our borders illegally and expect preferential treatment, consume tax dollars without contributing, disrespect our flag and culture, attempt to assimilate us into their culture and work for substandard wages and take their tax free booty back to their homeland, to mention a few, is politically incorrect and extremely offensive to me.

Stop with the sensitivity crap, already. If citizens of other countries don’t like where they are, do something about it within their own system or follow the letter of our laws and do as my great grandparents did - earn their way! Oh ya, something grandpa used to say when we kids would try packing his ears full of bs applies now as well, “Don’t be pissin’ on my leg and calling it rain”. My leg is getting wet and it’s not raining. Time to apply KISS principal, No Amnesty - No guest worker programs. (Period)

P.S. Please feel free to copy this and send it to your elected officials.

Im,

Why have the borders not been secured after 9-11?
Why have the republicans not enforced immigration laws after 9-11?
It’s politics.
Border security first.

Andre:

I don’t know the particulars of immigration law myself, but I do think barriers along the areas most frequently infiltrated will help stem the tide.

Although, the moat plan has a nice theatric appeal.

Anyway, Happy May Day. Before the institutionalization of May 1st as a grim political milemarker, pagans celebrated May 1st as part of nature’s rebirth cycle and celebrated by picking flowers and having sex. Doesn’t that sound more fun than any of the modern May 1st observances?

Rocky, your comments are really lacking integrity.

First, electrifying a fence takes very little energy. I can electrify a fence around my 5 acres on a car battery, and it smarts like hell, but, won’t hurt you unless you have a pacemaker hooked up to your heart. Is energy free? No. But, we are not talking billions here. Just a few million a year if that much. And we have already lost that much debating this issue in Congress for one cumulative month.

Second, you either put up a barrier or you man the 2000 miles. Which is cheaper. You can look it up. Amortized over 10 years, the fence is way, way, way cheaper. Why are you dodging the obvious here?
Law enforcement hasn’t a chance in dealing with more than a million people crossing our borders undetected and undeterred.

David R. Remer

To amplify your post on energy to power the fence. There is a way of providing energy and that is with wind and solar. This would also provide the incentive for others to use wind and solar for other worthwhile projects. This would be a great side benefit for an electrified fence.

Of course the red-nosed senator from MA does not believe in wind energy. To get his vote we could argue that it truly is not in his back yard.

David,

“Rocky, your comments are really lacking integrity.”

Integrity?

Give me a break.

At 15’high X 2,000 miles long we’re talking over 300,000,000 square feet of fence.
Where I come from that’s a damn big yard.
We haven’t even talked about how much the fence is going to cost, where we’re even going to get that much fence, who’s going to build it, let alone where the power is going to come from, and who’s going to supply the power.

David do we just call up the local Home Depot?

The Mexican border isn’t like some Sonoran Desert postcard, with a few cactus and rattlesnakes.

David, belive me I’m not trying to be patronizing, but you better than any of us should know what America’s financial situation is.

Max

It doesn’t anger me that Mexicans (or others are working here). I would like to have a regularized policy for useful people to come to the U.S. In fact, I think we should try hard to get smart people to move to our country.

The thing that bothers me about the nothing gringo day is that the people who do it are racists bigots who are insulting me. I don’t believe most people will be involved, so I am not talking about the whole group. As for those who are taking part, they can go to hell. I feel no obligation to people like that. They came to my country voluntarily and often against the laws of my country. If they don’t like it, they can return to the land of milk and honey from whence they came.

It is a slightly different context, but the sentiment is the same as what Davy Crocket told the people of Tennessee. (I paraphrase). If you reelect me, I will serve you well and honorably. If you do not, you can go to hell and I shall go to Texas.

Dave

I found the gringo thing insulting. I don’t take kindly to that sort of thing and I was not trying to write a reasoned or pleasant response. If these guys don’t like me, let them depart. There are plenty of good people that want to come to the U.S. and work hard. We don’t need the surly ones. We have enough of our own already.

They have a right in our free society to protest. It is not a right they enjoy to the same extent in their country of origin. Most people I talk to are grateful for the opportunity in the U.S. Obviously they like it better here, or they would have stayed their. IF they say they don’t, they are lying since they always retain the option of leaving.

I just want to call these guys on their racism and bigotry. Just like I criticize the KKK racists if they want to march in my park, I criticize the nothing gringo racists.

tomh,

“To amplify your post on energy to power the fence. There is a way of providing energy and that is with wind and solar.”

Both of these technologies are maintenence and cost intensive, otherwise we would be using these as our main sources if power.

I hope I don’t offend anyone with my choice of musical reference later on, (one of those songs you can’t get out of your head no matter how hard you try). The border issue is simply a debate over the rule of law or not. The war in Iraq was and is an issue of an administration proactively protecting America or not. Dems would have us believe that illegals sneaking into our country are OK, they just want to work. They seek to help these illegals to stay, become instant citizens and lobby hard for them to vote early and vote often for the Democratic ticket. Dems voted for the war, seeing the same intelligence the Brits and the Bush administration saw, (and some of the same intelligence Bubba claimed made Saddam a direct threat to the U.S.), before they voted against it. Repubs, rule of law, (even though the President has been weak on border enforcement so far), the Dems, well here goes…“feelings, nothing more than feelings…”

Rocky, if we can put people on the moon, we can surely erect a fence. C’mon. China did it out of masonry centuries ago. Your saying we can’t do it today?

Call Home Depot? No, call the suppliers to Home Depot and get competitive bids. The bids of course would come from China. But, that’s another topic.

JR, don’t lay that crap at Democrats feet alone. President Bush has made the same comments about letting them stay as reported in the press just today.

tomh, great idea. Since so much of the fence would reside in the SUN belt, solar powered to battery maintained is an obvious choice. Thanks for thinking of that and commenting on it. Wish I’d thought of that. Huge secondary benefits provided the solar panels can sit out of stone’s throw of the Mexicans on the other side of the fence :-).

David,

“Rocky, if we can put people on the moon, we can surely erect a fence. C’mon. China did it out of masonry centuries ago. Your saying we can’t do it today?”

No, I never said it couldn’t be done. I said it would be useless and expensive

BTW, The Great Wall took 1,800 years to build, was built with forced labor and was, over all, inefective.
It is also known as the world’s longest graveyard, because so many workers died in it’s construction.

Limiting our thinking to Internal US and external US creates a Catch 22 situation. Walls are not needed, efficient and much larger scale visa programs are needed, to ensure that everyone who wants to enter the country can (and in a very fast and easy manner) except those that are dangerous criminals. The current process is far too limiting and binding to be effective which is why people don’t bother.

David,
So says I in my comments. Nothings easy about the problem so why an easy get out of jail free card? ‘Cause it makes Dems feel better about themselves instead of them having any down & dirty meat on the bone input in solving the problem, no making the hard decision to put forth legislation, just call everyone a citizen and blame Repubs for less than compassionate conservatism. Again, I wish our President was more focused on a solid solution instead of forgive and forget! Bottom line is laws are in place, enforce them instead of pandering.

Rocky, you haven’t provided one shred of evidence that the fence would be useless. May I remind you that such a fence was created across Europe and was so effective as to be called the Iron Curtain. So, unless you can provide evidence it would not stem the flow of illegal immigrants across that border, your protestations have no merit.

I have pointed out that it would not be as expensive as wide open borders already are. D.a.n. has enumerated the costs of illegal immigration in great detail, in the billions. The fence would not be that expensive and would continue to reap savings from not have this same problem 10 years from now.

David,

“Rocky, you haven’t provided one shred of evidence that the fence would be useless. May I remind you that such a fence was created across Europe and was so effective as to be called the Iron Curtain. So, unless you can provide evidence it would not stem the flow of illegal immigrants across that border, your protestations have no merit.”

So should I just consider myself dismissed?

I might remind you that the “Iron Curtain” was built by a totalitarian government, and it wasn’t completely effective at stopping the “flow” of those that wanted badly enough to escape either.

Have a day.

Or we could institute a real viable option, like a a true regional trade agreement (like NAFTA is supposed to be) and grant free movement to all non felons between all regional countries. That would also prevent a problem in the next 10 years and would work to increase our market competitiveness and increase the standards of living for many in the region. We gotta get over this us and them bull.

Rocky, what does “who built it” have to do with the argument? Are you implying that if we build a fence to safeguard our borders that it will make us totalitarian? Get real, bub!

And I nor anyone else made the claim that that a fence would halt 100% of illegal immigration. So that reply of yours is also meaningless. It could stop up to 90% however, and given 1.4 million illegals crossing our border every year, 90% is solves most of the problem.

In ref to the Nothing Gringo Day
I for one will let them have there day as they want it. However I think we should have a nothing Mexican, I plan on buying Nothing made in mexico, Also most produce is picked by Illegals in this Country. Let all the produce sit on the shelf and spoil. Nothing Mexican Lets show them Buy American If at all possible

Considering even stuff made in America is allowed that title with up to a percentage of content from Mexico I think you best stop buying all items altogether Larry. Since we regionalized in 1993/1994, the idea of separating American goods from Mexican goods is impossible. If you want only local content, may I suggest moving Tibet.. I believe most of what they consume is all “local” in nature.

May 1 will be the worst day for illegal immigrants. the 60’s was a time of unrest that blacks sought equal rights. They were here legally and should have had some room to improve their lot in life. they got it and to some degree have improved and moved up if they chose to. I personaly had no problem with people of color as we played football, school and sat with them on road trips to eat. Some of my best friends so to speak. don’t have a real problem with Mexicans until they want to bad mouth me and mine, call themselves something they are not and demand the rights of citizenship and rights they are not entitled to. Really would like to learn spanish or more Tex-Mex. I really have a problem with someone who uses my tax dollars flying a Mexican flag from the School flag pole, upside down under the Mexican flag. I have about as much use for people like this as I do the people who flew the planes into the Twin Towers and Pentagon. It amounts to treason and should be dealt with accordingly. Just my thoughts and hope no one does it in my presence as I will not tolerate it. I would not burn the Mexican flag because it flys over a soveriegn nation and demand the same respect of the American Flag. The immigrants that did this are worthless and underserving of citizenship.

David,

“And I nor anyone else made the claim that that a fence would halt 100% of illegal immigration. So that reply of yours is also meaningless.”

Most of those that cross the border are just like you or I, except for an accident of birthplace. An infintecimal percentage of those that cross are truely criminal. Those are the ones that will not be detered by a fence.
You are prepared to spend billions and waste years to build a fence that won’t keep out the element that truely should be kept out.

You are entitled to your opinion, and that is all it is.

Build your fence,… but keep your doors locked.

Exactly Rocky… what we need is a regional immigration monitor that lets everyone BUT criminals flow freely.. walls don’t check IDs or background.

Rocky, it would appear that you believe America does not have enough population with 298 million people. Tell me, how close to China’s 1.3 Billion are you willing to take us?

Our population growth of necessity must coincide with our economic and productive capacities as well as quality of life expectations. Uncontrolled immigration for whatever reasons, humane or not, will jeopardize our quality of life standards, (already is by depressing wages) and with low wages, illegal immigrants are tapping far greater tax dollars per dollar tax paid than any other group of Americans.

We should treat and deal with illegal immigrants humanely. Sending them home is humane. Unless you believe we should not incarcerate any lawbreakers for any reason as that would be maltreatment. Law and order are breaking down in America. I just read that the feds sting operation netted the greatest number of fugitives from justice ever. But, you know what else was in that article? This largest roundup of fugitives ever represented only 1% of all fugitives.

Its about numbers Rocky. And maintaining our quality of life while controlling the opportunity our great nation extends to the billions of other people in the world, hundreds of millions of whom would move here in a heartbeat if they had an easy and legal way to do so.

Closing our border except for controlled checkpoints is the only way we can control immigration and balance these needs. Failing to do so, will only see a growing flood of illegal immigration until we get so bad here, few will find coming here very desireable anymore.

David,

“Rocky, it would appear that you believe America does not have enough population with 298 million people. Tell me, how close to China’s 1.3 Billion are you willing to take us?”

I am a realist.

You and I both know how the American Government works.
This is a ha.., uh snow job.
This is campaign retoric.
This is baloney all wrapped up with a bow.
Yeah, I know that Dan has this all worked out to the penny and the hours it will take to build the fence.

Yes David we went to the moon. We made our point.
How many times have we been back?
Do you guys want build the fence to make a point?
Do you realisticly think that anything wil be done with the 12.4 million that are already here?
Are we going to give them a bus ticket, and a pat on the ass, or do you want to make 12.4 million new felons?

Reality is a funny thing.

This fence is pie in the sky, and even if it is built it won’t do what you folks think it will do.
Those that want to get in will, and we won’t be able to stop them. Those that need to get in won’t. It’s as simple as that.

Besides when was the last time anything the government did actually met your expectations?

David
I know the feeling. I manage to piss off both side too. The left because I’m Conservative. And the right because I’m an independent Conservative.
It seems everyone think everyone else should be what they are. That would get boring in a hurry.
Your right though, Both sides are so busy jockeying for power that they get nothing done.
It’s time to put the whole bunch in the unemployment line.

BTW
I’ve been working to unseat one politician locally. He’s a member of the School Board and needs to be kicked off. I don’t know how I got talked into it but I hope to be the one that replaces him. Right now I’m running behind him by about 15%. But I just started my campaign and a lot can happen before November.

Ron, outstanding. Best of luck with your campaign. I truly hope you win. Your common sense and logical approach to problems evidenced here on WatchBlog will serve you and your constituents well. My best wishes and compliments on your willingness to serve all the people and their children.

Rocky, without stopping the flow of a million plus across the border, it doesn’t matter what you decide to do with the 11 million already here. Deport them, they will be right back again, with more relatives tagging along. Keep them here, will only serve as a carrot to millions more desiring to follow their path. The Border Barrier is essential to making any other decisions be effective and productive.

We bought 5 acres. For a couple years, folks would cross our land frequently using it for everything from setting off fireworks to having picnics. We finally got the 5 acres fenced in with 5’ high horse fence, and signs saying Beware of Dogs, and Owners have firearms - DO NOT TRESPASS! In the last 5 years the fence has been up, the dogs got one of two teen trespassers, or their shirttails anyway, and someone else bent down the wire fence on another occasion, but we don’t know what for, but, I am sure they didn’t get far with our dogs.

That is the effect of a fence. Now if my fence were high voltage with appropriate warning signs, those two incursions would likely never have occured either. Sure some will still get in. But, most won’t, leaving our representatives to decide who comes in and when, which is far preferable to what we have now with no control.

Your apparent refusal to acknowledge the simple logic of this line of reasoning is incomprehensible to me. So, by all means, vote to let any and everyone who wants in, in. That is your prerogative. But, don’t expect the majority of Americans to follow your lead. You will be sorely disappointed.

David,

“So, by all means, vote to let any and everyone who wants in, in. That is your prerogative. But, don’t expect the majority of Americans to follow your lead. You will be sorely disappointed.”

You assume too much.

I never said not to build the fence, by all means, if it makes you more secure, have at it.
What I HAVE said is that you will be sorely dissapointed with the results.
We will build this fence and it may work for awhile, but where is the next threat?
Where next will we spend money that could be put to better use?

I have seen you bitching and complaining about the cost of the war, the cost of the energy bill, the fact that we up to our asses in debt in this country and there is no end in sight.

Yeah, by all means, let’s build a fence the American way.
Let’s build it on low bid. Yeah, this is going to be great.
I can’t wait.

David,

I am one of the first to admit that we have been invaded.
I have posted it time and again.
I have nothing but disgust for those arrogant protestors that assume that because they are on American soil, that they have the rights of American citizens.

On the other hand I have met in my journeys just plain folks that only want a job.

These folks do pay taxes if their employer is reputable, and recieve only a paycheck. They usually rent so any property tax that supports a school system is already figured into their rent.
What do they get for their taxes? Nothing, no unemployment, no healthcare, except maybe county hospital emergency, and if they get sick they lose their jobs because there is someone just as needy to take that job when their gone.

Yeah, they probably don’t have car insurance, but they are usually the slow guy in front of you on the highway.

Is there a criminal element?
You bet!
Is it a greater percentage than our own home grown criminals?
I seriously doubt it.

Most of these folks aren’t from the cities of Mexico. Most of these folks come here because they have lost their farms to a coop corporate farm because they can’t compete with the price of American exported goods.

And yeah, David, I get it, but it really stinks.

Where are the republicans who have taken an economics course or two and know that free market and free flow of work force is required for improved performance and increased standards of living? Moreover, where are my fellow American’s that are over this us-them dynamic? We don’t need fewer immigrants, we need a more efficient system for processing and allowing LEGAL immigrants, so there is no need to be here illegally.

Repubs don’t get it

Nearly the whole country is trying to move right towards the law and order party, Conservatives face being trounced in mid term elections and half of the of them are off in La-La land.
We face a sedition threat like never before and need the cavalry to ride in and rescue the nation and half of the rough riders are either too short sighted, intimidated or are in La-La land.
Sovereignty, patriotism and rule of law passion is sweeping the country and some conservatives are pandering to ten percent of the voting population.
And last but definitely not least is some politicians in America seem to actually believe the southwest and perhaps even the whole chunk of land we live on rightfully belongs to the Latinos and they will be taking it anyway so why not speed the process. Reprehensible but America needs statesmen patriots not politicians.
Just a little newsflash for Conservatives the American majority is awake and is in storm mode headed for a tsunami wave that will sweep weak kneed pro alien politicians out to sea.
Patriot heroes can ride the wave to office if they will stand strong for right versus wrong and save America from those who would destroy her.

Xander, what your missing is the disparity in quality of life between Central America, Mexico, and the U.S. Why is there not an illegal immigration problem on our Northern border? The reason is parity in quality of life.

To bring Mexico up to our quality of life, or to bring our quality of life down to Mexico’s (the shorter route) will take half a century or more. Until the time that there is parity in quality of life, our vastly superior quality of life will continue to motivate illegal immigration in ever growing numbers until such time, as I said, our quality drops and there’s increases to an approximately equal level.

That is the mandate for the border barrier - which not only will place an additional hurdle between us and terrorists, but, slow the degradation of our quality of life which is already underway.

Median income has been dropping in real terms for decades, and much faster in the last few years. 1% of the wealthiest in America control as much wealth as the bottom 90% of Americans, and that divide is getting wider by the year. This is significant because we are a demand driven economy which absolutely requires that the bottom 90% continue to sustain that demand with purchasing power. While overall inflation is in largely in check, the inflation rate for the middle and lower classes is 3 and 4 times that of the overall rate, due to health care, education, food, and energy cost increases. And with inflation eating their purchasing power away on the one side, wage declines in real terms are hitting them hard from the other.

Quality of life losses on this scale can, as Ben Bernanke warned Congress, lead to a protectionist electorate which in turn would cost America devastatingly in global competitive advantage. Quality of life losses as the AFL-CIO recently implied, could spark the come back of unionism in America, which also could deteriorate our global competitive advantage. Finally, quality of life losses and gross disparities in wealth can lead to civil strife and chaos as we saw in the 1960’s and 1970’s.

The greatest threat to America of uncontrolled immigration is loss of quality of life for American born citizens, who grow up under one quality of life standard with their parents which cannot be reproduced when they enter the work force. The consequences of that happening is something the U.S. Comptroller David Walker, the Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke, and a host of economists on both the liberal and conservative side have expressed concern over, and for really important reasons.

Following a numbers by rote economic philosophy is very dangerous if it does not take into account these less easily measured social and political consequences of wealth disparity growth and losses in inter-generational quality of life standards and expectations. Even the conservative Republican Alan Greenspan said it is a mistake to follow the theory that tax cuts pay for themselves as he pointed out that though they partially compensate for tax cut revenue losses with increased economic activity, it is wrong to believe the rate is even 70% recovery or anything like that.

Greenspan was pointing to the fact that philosophy ((tax cuts stimulate economic activity gains) that ignores real world data, (but result in net increased deficits in deficit prone periods) can ruin us, and our future. Bernanke and Walker are today reiterating that warning.

Illegal immigration is costing us far more than just downward pressure on wages. It is going to cost us civil harmony and peace in our border states as the Spanish language becomes ever more dominant. It is going to cost us intensely if a humanized communicable form of Avian flue breaks out in Central America or Mexico and we have no way of halting illegal immigration on a dime to prevent its rapid spread into the U.S.

Defending our borders is one of the most important obligations of government under our Constitution. Getting control of our borders so we dictate who comes across them is vital to our national security, vital to our quality of life, vital to economic well being, and vital to community health.

Allowing foreigner illegal immigrants to dictate our national security weaknesses, our economic weaknesses, our quality of life standards, and play Russian Roulette with our community health, is just plain stupid and violates one of the prime directives in our Constitution to office holders.

RMB,

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and hope you were be entirely sarcastic. If not, us La La republicans will continue to advance reason and justice and we can let the nationalists have their own party… I know I’ve heard of other nationalist parties… I can’t remember what they were called though. I know there was an active one in 1940’s Germany.. can anyone help me out? What was it called?

David,

What you’re missing is that it’s only “illegal” because we don’t have a system efficient enough at approving worker visas fast enough. It wouldn’t be illegal if we did our job right and allowed free-flow of workers so the hardest workers get the jobs.

RMB,

Will the people that will be carrying the “storm” be called troopers? If so, I think we can find some great uniforms at discounted prices for them.

Xander, your semantic games may be cute, but, I consider dodging the issue with semantics to be a waste of bandwidth on such an important topic. Let’s just redefine illegal immigrants as legal immigrants and all our problems will go away. Your comments are in serious need of a dose of reality, my friend.

I’m not trying be cute. I am the one being realistic, they are only illegal because we have an inefficient system of making them “legal.” If we had a system that would efficiently check everyone who wanted in, then we would know the criminals from those just wanting to work and we could allow those that want to work and prevent the felons.

Moreover the amount of xenophobia (not articulated by you, but by some) is frightfully reminiscent of arguments that have been advanced in previous and very violent epochs. Whenever people put forth nationalist arguments to push out ethnic groups I think back to detainment of asian-americans in WWII, of preventing african americans from voting, of the French defining citizenship by color, of 40’s Germany using heritage to define citizenship.. These are very valid comparisons to the “THEY are ruining America” argument.

These folks do pay taxes if their employer is reputable, and recieve only a paycheck. They usually rent so any property tax that supports a school system is already figured into their rent.
What do they get for their taxes? Nothing, no unemployment, no healthcare, except maybe county hospital emergency, and if they get sick they lose their jobs because there is someone just as needy to take that job when their gone.
- Posted by Rocky

I am astonished at your reasoning. If the spin on that statement could be harnessed, we could end our dependency on foreign oil.

You say they pay taxes if their employer is reputable.
That MEANS they pay taxes if they are deducted by the employer. What else could they do? In occupations which are operating within the law, employees receiving wages have some part of their taxes automatically collected each pay period. I authorized the government to increase the deductions from my wages to reduce the amount I owed at tax time. Do you think that illegals are doing that? I suspect that if they pay taxes, they pay the minimum, therefore increasing their tax debt at the end of the year. Are you suggesting that these illegals file tax returns on April 15th to pay any unowed taxes? If you have info on the tax returns and end of the year payments by illegals, please share.

Also, do you think that illegals are unhappy if their employer doesn’t put them on the books? My income would certainly look healthier if I didn’t have any deductions for taxes or the federal safetynet.

Next you said that paying rent translates into property tax which supports local education.
- I have two problems with that. First, statistically speaking illegals have large families and in areas with large concentrations of illegal aliens, the school systems are being overwhelmed. In addition to contributing to the volume of the population, children of illegals often have poor or nonexistent english language skills which require costly, time consuming english language curriculum just to place them into the mainstream educational system. The cost of the extra manhours,educational material and infrastructure used to provide special education to illegals’ children is all taken from the operating budget established to educate the children who legally live in the school district.

Regarding the illegals access to healthcare, don’t lose sleep at night worrying that illegal aliens aren’t getting access to local, state or federal funded healthcare systems. Why they are getting so much access that hospitals are closing down due to the tremendous costs incurred by providing free treatment to illegals. Illegals aren’t being persecuted at the hospital or clinic, since it’s illegal to inquire about the immigration status of patients.

Finally, you state your concern that there is not adequate protection of illegal immigrants illegal jobs which they illegally hold. Well really, there ought to be a law. Unless we band together as a nation to protect the illegal immigrants and their illegal jobs and improve their free health care and education, we are apparently in danger of not having enough illegal immigrants to suck the fat out our society. If we handle this situation properly, we can look forward to having America in the same fine economic position as Mexico. Once both countries are sinking ships, maybe the illegals will move back to Mexico, thus solving our illegal immigration problem.

That’s a brilliant solution Rocky.

King Ned,

“That MEANS they pay taxes if they are deducted by the employer. What else could they do? In occupations which are operating within the law, employees receiving wages have some part of their taxes automatically collected each pay period. I authorized the government to increase the deductions from my wages to reduce the amount I owed at tax time. Do you think that illegals are doing that?”

Gee, ya think?

Did you and David go to school together?

You two infer an awfull lot of nonsense from what I have written.
Like a typical right winger, you take my anecdotal statement and make general sweeping judgement of what I actually wrote.

“Finally, you state your concern that there is not adequate protection of illegal immigrants illegal jobs which they illegally hold.”

Please clean your glasses because this is what I wrote;

“Most of these folks aren’t from the cities of Mexico. Most of these folks come here because they have lost their farms to a coop corporate farm because they can’t compete with the price of American exported goods.”

Posted by: Rocky at April 28, 2006 01:06 AM

How could you possibly get;

“”Finally, you state your concern that there is not adequate protection of illegal immigrants illegal jobs which they illegally hold.”“

from what I wrote above?

If you need it, I have a link to a really good reading comprehension course.

Xander, without a border barrier, what is to prevent those we reject through legal immigration from just moving down the line and coming in illegally?

And if employers are given the responsibility to discern who is legal and who is not, how do you propose they make that distinction?

And is it economically viable for a legal immigrant making 3.50 to 5.25 an hour to bring his wife and 5 kids over to live on his wages? Is it viable for him. Is it viable for American wages which are artificially depressed by his willingness to take such substandard wages due to his pending citizenship status for a couple years? And how does he educate his kids, get his medical care, and buy a car and become Americanized on 5.25 an hour?

Sorry, your nirvana utopian scenario is nothing more than wishful thinking which has no parallel in this practical and politically charged real world we live in. Fact is, Congress won’t buy your solution that we just need to enforce the laws, because effective law enforcement depends directly on our ability to stop the flow across the border FIRST and FOREMOST. More than a million a year are crossing over (conservative estimate). Give them a legal path and it will quickly become 3 million a year, then 5, and so on, until our quality of life in America is no better than in their homeland, and then they will stop coming here.

Your utopian ideal of more people means more development and infrastructure and profits is so full of holes it looks like Dick Cheney’s hunting buddy.

Rocky:

You asserted that illegals pay taxes if the employer is reputable as if this is an accomplishment on their part, when this sort of involentary cooperation with the law says nothing about their commitment to pay their fair share of taxes. My argument is that the ONLY income taxes collected from illegals are those automatically deducted from their pay checks. I further think that they don’t pay additional annual income taxes because they don’t file tax returns. The whole point of this line of reasoning is that I disagree with the accuracy of your assertion that illegals pay income tax. You went on to assert that since they didn’t receive health insurance or retirement benefits that they were getting a raw deal. That seems to imply that you think that taxation of illegals is unfair. Read your comment and you will see that tone.

Regarding job protections for illegals illegal jobs, I copied your comment as a header to my comment. Here’s what you wrote after you bemoaned illegals not receiving paid insurance at their illegal jobs:

… and if they get sick they lose their jobs because there is someone just as needy to take that job when their gone.

Perhaps you should read the entire comment from the top if you want to respond in a sensical fashion.

I see that you choose to ignore the information about illegals and their costs to education and health care systems, as well as those illegals who work entirely under the table paying no income tax at all. That’s wise since you don’t seem to be on the top of your game tonight.

Yes… I see you guys are correct now, I’ve seen the error of my ways. I am going out to build that wall right now. Besides our southern neighbors, I think we need a wall that runs from arizona up to washington, and from DC to Illinois, because like mexico, the standard of living in the midwest and south is much lower than the coastal states, and I fear that if left unchecked the migration from these “I will work for federal minimum wage” states will undercut our superior waged and educated states. Moreover, we are going to set up our own tax system, we are tired of these midwesterners using up our tax dollars for their corn growing initiatives and health care issues. The amount of over 65 year olds moving to Arizona and California is a substantial burden. If we don’t do something immediately, our coastal areas might sink to the development level of the Dakatos, or even the Ozarks. Our economies are juggernaughts compared to the midwest and can continue without them. All of the midwesterners gonna stop working? That’s fine, we got huge corporations and don’t need anyone who will work for less than 100K a year.

Now that you mention it, we should insulate all of our urban areas from the rural. These areas have much lower standards of living, lower levels of education and cannot be suffered. They are destroying the urban way of life. People that will work for less than 500K a year? Please, they will undermine our economy. We should erect some more walls.

Remember what happened to Kmart and Rosie Odonnell when she hacked on Tom Seleck about the NRA? The NRA and Gun owners of America joined forces and called Kmart. Kmart said she had the freedom of speech and they could not do anything about it. We boycotted Kmart and their stock went to pot. That is because the people who boycotted were real citizens who contributed to the system, taxes, health care, ect.

I think we should all flood Congress and the house May 1st and with calls protest the fact that criminals inside this United States dare demand rights they are not entitled to. Make our voices heard and they know we mean it in November unlike a group that have no voting rights. If and when they try to vote arrest them and send them home.

We pay the bills, we pay the health care and we carry more weight than the “jobs we won’t do” group. WE can protest and still go to work and shop. Shopping will be a lot easier without the lines of welfare cards, children running.

Let’s get organized and get it done. Sinko de Mayo. let us show them how to get things done.

I say we build a wall(see King Kong) around the whole of the United States. We can call it our multipurpose wall.
It will prevent hurricanes from exposing racism in the United States.
It will prevent 9-11 from happening again exposing our war hawk government’s useless intelligence agencies.
It will prevent us from being exposed to the evils of cultural pluralism.
It will prevent other nations from confusing the United States of the past with the self-serving, cowardice,self-important, blowhard, bully, hypocritical, chickenshit nation we have become.
Those who want to hide from terror, go ahead. Don’t expect everyone else to do the same.
Im,
You have called me a spic, i’ll let that slide. Apparently you can use racial slurs here with immunity. I choose to let it slide because of the source of the slur.

Well said Andre.

Even if all undocumented immigrants get legalized racism will always be there, these people will manage to find some other people to look down to.

I’ve heard my own friends talking about Mexicans and Asians making fun of the money the work for over their countries, it is not a laughing matter and we should be a bit more christian to thank the Lord for what we have.

I applaud the government for the plans they have and what they will do, they have proved to me once more that maybe late but do deliver and their actions are what makes sense republican or democrats. RV.

Ned,

Sorry for going off on you, I have been fighting with a baulky multimedia computer all day.

However,
Nowhere in my post do I ask for anything except maybe a sympathy for those that are here working for a better life.

You guys make it sound as if the they came here to intentionally screw us out of our last dime, and it just ain’t so.
Yes there is a problem.
Is that what you guys want to hear?
I have said so before.
I abhor those demonstrators that think we owe them a living, and I have said so.
Though when I find one of these guys sitting on my couch in his underwear, drinking my beer. I’ll let you know.
Until then, I think that we should ease up on the retoric and hyperbole a bit.

Building a wall around America isn’t going to stop the rot from within.

Oh, and BTW,
That rot is us not them.

Does ANYONE here read history books? ANYONE?

There was a wall between East and West Germany a while back.

Did THAT work? How long did THAT work?

Everyone who wants to build a wall…go read your history books and THEN come back and respond.

hernandez, you call me a bigot. you said to call you a spic. is it different for you since your last name gives you the right to call me whitey, honky, cracker, gringo ect. sticks and stones deal but you said call me a spic. look at your post. what a dumbass you are.

Im,

If I told you to jump off a cliff would you?

Give the slurs a rest.

Thanks David.
I looking forward to having the opportunity to serve the folks of this county.
The sad state of our educational system both locally and nationally has long been a thorn in my side. I may not accomplish much, but I hope to make a small difference here. I’m facing a man that’s been in office for 16 years and has never been opposed in an election.
He has voted on the wrong side of everything. There aint a problem that can’t be solved by throwing money at it according to him. He’s never seen a tax he doesn’t like and had a fit when recently the voters turned down a bond issue for $2.5 million to remove asbestos from the schools that’s supposedly been removed 3 times now.

Rocky, if i told you to go back to mexico would you? give it a rest.

David,

I understand your point, I never said that I hadn’t.

The issue of border security has been on the table for years, and nothing has changed.

Why the great hue and cry for it now, this moment?

Do we think that we will wave a magic wand, and poof, a fence will appear, and stave off all evil from sullying our pristine country?

The time to think about security was in 1986 when the first amnesty was announced, and then again on Sept. 12th, 2001.

We now have 12.4 million more people, and more every day.
Frankly I can’t see these folks just saying “yep, you got us, we’ll go home now”.

Amnesty for the honest folks that here to work is a dumb idea, as is the fence.
Surely a country as technologicly advanced as we think we are can come up with a cheaper, better, more secure border surveillance option.

The cows are already out of the pasture, what are we going to do about it?

IM,

“Rocky, if i told you to go back to mexico would you? give it a rest.”

Wow, I am impressed with that snappy response.

I guess I will just have to pack my bags and go.

Wow, I am impressed with that snappy response.

I guess I will just have to pack my bags and go.

The only thing amnesty will do is invite more illegals here. It will tell them that all they have to do is get here, not get caught for awhile, and Uncle Sap will make them legal and possibility citizens.
It also makes a mockery of our immigration laws and those that have followed them to come here legally.
I don’t have anything against anyone coming here to make a better life for themselves and their families. They do need to do it legally though.
If it’s going to take a wall around the entire country to keep illegals out then get the thing built.
But the best way to stop illegal immigration is to make it unprofitable to hire illegals. Fines alone won’t do the trick. The employer will just write them off his taxes.
Taking the employers business license along with fines and jail time might be the best way. But the penalties would have to very stiff. The business will have to be shut down the whole time the employer is in jail. Also the loss during this time and fines can’t be deducted from taxes.
If it’s unprofitable enough the employers that hire illegals won’t hire them. And then there would be no reason for them to come here illegally.
We also need to quit giving benefits to illegals.

Rocky:

Keep me posted on that couch situation. Hope today’s a better day for you.

Ron,

“Taking the employers business license along with fines and jail time might be the best way. But the penalties would have to very stiff. The business will have to be shut down the whole time the employer is in jail. Also the loss during this time and fines can’t be deducted from taxes.”

Stop the presses, Ron this is the single issue that is at the crux of the problem, and I’ll be damned if we don’t agree (again?).
You realize that we will be condemned for being against the small business owner.

“It also makes a mockery of our immigration laws and those that have followed them to come here legally.”

Can we also agree that the intention of these folks isn’t to make a mockery, but to make a better life?

Someone needs to be made an example, and they need to be pinned to the wall.

No offence to the Spanish only crowd, but do you think that someone that has extremely limited language skills would be the tipoff that a person is illegal?

King Ned,

It’s a brighter day already.

Im,

“I’d rather someone call me a spic to my face. I can respect that as a clearly stated view”

How is this saying for you to call me a spic by typing it from miles away?
To my face. Is that clarified?
I’m not saying you are a bigot, what you keep typing on this post is convincing enough.

Apparently, it is racist to notice the strain on America’s educational system caused by the immigration problem.

Apparently, it is racist to notice the impending failure of state healthcare systems caused by the immigration problem.

Apprarently, it is racist to see the failure of our police to control the problems caused by the immigration problem.

Apparently, it is racist to object to over ten million people a year who violate the law and then demand rights because they were successful criminals.

In Mexico, it’s a felony to immigrate without benefit of paperwork punishable by jail time.

In Mexico, employers are legally required to give Mexican citizens preferential treatment in employment.

This issue is about economics, not racism. Defining it as a racial issue makes martyrs of people who knowingly violated US law by illegally entering the US and continue to violste the law by either working under false documents or working without complying