A Decent Democratic Scheme

If all Dems were as smart as Robert Rubin, people wouldn’t have so many doubts about them. He is partisan but he has ideas and as godfather of the Hamilton Project, he is putting them out. Of course the other guy with really good ideas is Newt Gingrich. Too bad we cannot have both. The beauty of American pluralism is maybe we can. Both claim tto support small efficient government.

The Hamilton project proposes limited, but efficient government. The authors are taking risks. It is risky, for example, for any Dem to go against the sacred cows of teachers’ unions. The project also advocates a type of personal retirement account. Maybe there is room for compromise.

The group promises more policy papers in future weeks. We can all look forward to reading them. If we all talk about reasonable policies, maybe we can get back to being just Americans.

Posted by Jack at April 17, 2006 10:18 PM
Comments
Comment #141347

Rubin and Gingrich are both internationalists who advocate the end of national sovereignty with all countries reduced to mere administrative units of a single world government.
I’m not familiar with the Hamilton Project yet, but if those two are pushing it, it can’t be good for America.

Posted by: traveller at April 17, 2006 11:42 PM
Comment #141349

Jack,
After posting above I clicked your link to the Hamilton Project. It’s really a link to the Brookings Institution, an internationalist think tank second only to the Council on Foreign Relations in their advocacy of the end of nationhood.
For some time now I’ve been suspicious of your conservative bona fides. Now I see that suspicion justified. You’re nothing but a shill for the internationalists working to create world government.

Posted by: traveller at April 17, 2006 11:56 PM
Comment #141351

There are some interesting ideas here but let’s think through their approach to education.

They propose that more teachers would be hired but fewer would receive tenure. Supposedly this would result in a better crop of teachers, perhaps akin to the thousands of people who try out for the major leagues when only the best of the best get chosen. But let’s leave the ivory tower a moment and visit the real world of unintended consequences for a moment.

Is this really going to give us better teachers? Who in their right mind would invest 7 to 9 years of their life (4 to 6 years college plus three years teaching before becoming eligible for tenure) and tens of thousands of dollars of their own money, to enter into what effectively becomes a game of chance? There isn’t much you can do with a degree in education outside of teaching.

Why do I say its a game of chance? Because no one has come up with any valid, objective means of measuring the quality of a teacher. Test scores? Don’t be ridiculous. Besides the fact that scores are affected by numerous variables that are outside of a teacher’s control, there a great many things that quality teachers do that cannot be measured by tests. Critical thinking skills and independent judgement are precisely the kinds of things that the Hamilton Project would seem to promote and yet they are virually ignored by standardized tests.

Qualitivative assessments certainly make more sense, but overtaxed adminstrators have very little time to spend actually observing teachers and thus are forced to base their appraisals of teachers on fewer than a half dozen observations. To go back to the baseball analogy, this is akin to evaluating a batter by watching a total of about 6 at bats per season.

Sounds like I’m advocating the status quo right? Lets just keep giving tenure to crappy teachers, right? Wrong.

First of all, the notion that there are a lot of poor quality teachers out there being protected by well entrenched unions is nonesense. If you actually go into schools and look at what’s happening you’ll find the reality is very different from the stereotype. Second, the idea that we should hire more and fire more is so ass-backwards that it really calls into question everything else they say. How about hire the same number of teachers and train train them better? Teaching is the only profession I’m aware of where a person on the job for one day has exactly the same responsibility and is held to the same standards as someone who has been working for 30 years. If we really wanted better teachers we would invest more money in mentor programs and allow veteran teachers to work with new teachers over time. We would identify what they need to become better teachers and give it to them rather than just letting them sink or swim as we do now.

Posted by: Camillus at April 18, 2006 12:03 AM
Comment #141355

If the democrat liberal racist could just act human one time with out playing the race game things would get done. I am a conservative and the liberals are really screwing things up. You got the Clintons calling racist. You got the wacky far left in San Fransico going way out of control with all the speak about almost seems like a terrist city. No matter what Bush does they put him down. And if the Rupublicans would act more conservative like it once was things would go alot better. And start standing up to this damn race game the liberal so called civil rights groups are playing.

Posted by: TheConservative at April 18, 2006 12:22 AM
Comment #141356

None of it will work until we address a few fundamentals first.

No reforms are possible until voters learn to do the one simple thing they were supposed to be doing all along.
Corrupt, bought-and-paid-for, incumbent politicians won’t ever reform themselves.
It is now up to the voters.
Unfortunately, voters usually wait until it is too late, and they must suffer the pain and misery of their own negligence.

The health of any government, organization, or society requires a firm understanding of the human factor ( ) and how to adequately account for the human factor, with a sufficient mix of Education, Transparency, Accountability, and Power (for law enforcement).

Posted by: d.a.n at April 18, 2006 12:22 AM
Comment #141358
Sounds like I’m advocating the status quo right?

Right.

Teaching is the only profession I’m aware of where a person on the job for one day has exactly the same responsibility and is held to the same standards as someone who has been working for 30 years.

That is just not true. I work in Healthcare and I can tell you that many first day healthcare providers are held to the same standand and have the same responsibility as those who have been there 30 years or longer. Many RN’s are thrown into the mix without so much as an orientation. Residents are expected to give the same level of care as their Attending counterparts, etc. I am sure this is true in many other professions too.

Posted by: JayJay Snow at April 18, 2006 12:27 AM
Comment #141359

The trouble with the end of nationhood is that the increase of power in fewer hands doesn’t not translate to a proportional increase of wisdom, knowledge, or perception.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at April 18, 2006 12:30 AM
Comment #141360

TheConservative,

I’m sorry, did I miss something? What does that have to do with the topic at hand?

Posted by: JayJay Snow at April 18, 2006 12:31 AM
Comment #141383

Camillus,

Excellent post. I’m a career educator, so naturally I took interest to the post about reforming education. I pretty much feel the same way and I couldn’t have said it better myself.

I just wanted to add a few points of my own. First, one of the most simple ways the federal government can improve the quality of this nation’s teachers is to pay them more. I taught for five years in Texas and was recognized for outstanding achievement. None of this was reflected in my pay. The last year of those 5, I worked with at-risk students and drop-outs, yet I only made 32,000 dollars. It really wasn’t enough to make all of the emotional gymnastics and sheer hours worth it. My father is 60, he’s been teaching full time for 34 years. He is also a recognized teacher, and he draws 50k plus a stypen. Compared to many of my friends who became investment bankers and work in marketing, this kind of salary is merely a pittance. Many of these friends, in a way, looked upon teaching as a sort of ‘last resort’. That is, just in case a better job wasn’t available.

The fact is, if you want to attract the best and the brightest to the field of education (which i certainly hope would be the goal), you have to make it more financially attractive. Younger teachers in America must increasingly play more dynamic roles, and many bright minds don’t view it as a rewarding enough career. Personally, I got fed up with the bureaucracy of it all and started teaching overseas. I now make more money, work fewer hours, and have fewer responsibilities than I had in the states - on top of the rich international experience. I am actually banking on my skills internationally rather than nurture them for 20 years in the States waiting for somebody to throw me a bone.

The Hamilton Project’s ideas about improving teacher quality are good, in a way, because they recognize the fundamental fact that quality teachers are an essential component of a quality education system. The major fault, however, is that it relies upon having a large pool of potential teachers from which to choose. For the most part, this is definately not the case in the USA. The reality of the situation is that we are in the midst of one of the worst teacher shotages the nation has ever seen. With the bulk of teachers being eligible for retirement very soon if not already, the situation could potentially grow much worse.

Therefore, the solution lies not in running more teachers through the cycle and weeding out the less-qualified ones; rather it is finding innovative ways to attract more capable candidates to the job from which to choose the best and the brightest.

Posted by: Beijing Rob at April 18, 2006 4:52 AM
Comment #141388
… democrat liberal racist … I am a conservative … You got the wacky far left in San Fransico going way out of control with all the speak about almost seems like a terrist city. … if the Rupublicans would act more conservative like it once was things would go alot better …

Posted by: TheConservative at April 18, 2006 12:22 AM

Thank you, for proving (once again!) what I have been saying in this forum all along…

Posted by: Betty Burke at April 18, 2006 7:29 AM
Comment #141395

I only got through the 401K and IRA portion and it seemed to me that while I like the idea of automatically enrolling employees into some sort of a retirement program to go along with Social Security benefits (if there are any available when I retire) is reasonable. I don’t like the idea of starting another government program to automatically add 30% to the retirement programs instead of the tax benefit that is currently in place. I thought they were for smaller more efficient government and here they want to start yet another bloated government agency.

Posted by: SWMichiganBill at April 18, 2006 8:39 AM
Comment #141407

JayJay, it has nothing to do really. It seems he’s trying to make liberals into monsters and therefore the Republicans MUST be right. I wouldn’t pay too much attention to him if I were you.

Jack, the proposal was mostly abstract. The only concrete figures were describing the fact that we have a problem, which should be obvious to most Americans at this point. I don’t see what the Hamilton Project is other than a load of fluff.

Posted by: Zeek at April 18, 2006 10:10 AM
Comment #141409
Both claim tto support small efficient government.

Jack, Jack, Jack… Pity for your “point” that only Rubin succeeded in providing a smaller budget (and Clinton, a smaller government). We now see clearly that when Republicans run the government, spending goes through the roof for no other reason than to line the pockets of the extremely wealthy (except maybe to start and run the odd, unnecessary war or two).

Essential services are cut. Long running, extremely popular programs (like social security) are attacked. AND, the budget deficit skyrockets. Again, why is this? So Bill Gates can pay a few million less in taxes?

Posted by: Jeff Seltzer at April 18, 2006 10:18 AM
Comment #141420

Jeff

Clinton AND Gingrich. Remember the fights over the budget. Had Clinton not been chastised in 1994, I think we would have seen a more tradionally liberal administration,and all the problems that go with it. There are many good and moderate Dems, but they tend to get pushed around by the Boxers, Waxmans and Conyers unless the Republicans are strong.

I agree that spending is too high, but we don’t see many Dems that want to cut it in any concrete way. The Dems would indeed raise taxes, but they may not cut spending.

The balanced budget was the result as much of serindipity are planning, BTW. The big “cut” in government were mostly the result of defense declines when we were told the world was no longer a dangerous place.

Re SS - you cannot have it. It is not sustainable very much longer. The next administration (Dem or Rep) will make changes (and cuts).

Re conservative

I think that sometimes people write in as a provocation and under a false flag. I have noticed the “conservative” postings that are not from regulars include generally good grammar and things like the correct use of semi-colons, but then there will be an egregious misspelling or easily identifiable logical flaws. In other words, they are synthetically created.

My belief is that these are people on the left trying to portray their conservative stereotype. After that all the other lefties can talk with their eyes closes and smugly smell their own farts while they decry the uneducated conservatives.

Traveler

I didn’t know we had such a litmus test to be in the conservative club. I judge by what people do, not who they are or what they say they are going to do. I am a conservative because I believe in the free market and limited government, support a strong national defense and believe in individual - not group - rights. When somebody does those things I want, I am happy to cooperate with him as long as he does.

I don’t think being an internationalist is a problem. I do not believe in surrendering U.S. sovereignty to multinational organizations, but I do believe in cooperating wherever possible with allies and I believe that globalization makes us stronger. If that is not conservative, you have to exclude Ronald Reagan too … and Margret Thatcher. If they can’t stay in the club, I am leaving.

All will please stand at their computers at the mention of their names.

Posted by: Jack at April 18, 2006 11:47 AM
Comment #141422

The Hamilton Project has lots of good ideas, but it is folly to think any of that will come to pass as long as we continue to allow:

  • corrupt, elitist government, full of arrogant, bought-and-paid-for, FOR SALE, incumbent politicians, concerned only with their own self-gain, gettin’ theirs, with cu$hy golden parachutes when it all goes wrong, leavin’ voters to suffer the consequences of their own negligence.

  • corporatism, corpocrisy, capitalism run amuck.

  • 45-year high record-level corporate profits

  • tax cuts for the wealthy,

  • median wages have fallen for 6 consecutive years,

  • the middle-class tax payer is getting squeezed from all sides (and footing the $70 billion per year for illegal aliens for their education, healthcare, welfare, Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, law enforcement, incarceration, etc., because Dems want votes, and Repubs want cheap labor for greedy corporate owners who reap the profits)

  • the g a p between the top 1% of the wealthiest and the remaing 99% of Americans has never been larger since the Great Depression of 1929

  • foreclosures have been rising for 13 consecutive months

  • %National Debt to GDP (now at 68%, up from 33% in 1980) has never been higher since WWII.

  • a looming generational storm as the shrinking percentage of younger tax payers become increasingly resentful of the heavy burden of entitlements due to the $12.8 trillion plundered from Social Security (not to mention the cost of Medicare)

  • and polls show Americans don’t think we’re on the right path

  • Iraq, no WMD, bad intelligence, mismanagement, etc.

  • rampant pork-barrel while troops go without body armor and medical attention

  • abuse of eminent domain laws; stealing privately owned land for corporations

  • … more …

Posted by: d.a.n at April 18, 2006 12:01 PM
Comment #141423
If all Dems were as smart as Robert Rubin… Posted by Jack at April 17, 2006 10:18 PM
I love the implication that all of us “Stupid Dems can’t see what’s good for us”. Just because you agree with someone doesn’t make them stupid; unless of course, they’re still a Republican. Was this in response to Paul’s scathing post about BushCo bigotry just 4 hours before?
Re conservative …they are synthetically created…My belief is that these are people on the left trying to portray their conservative stereotype Posted by Jack at April 18, 2006 11:47 AM
I hope you’re kidding. Otherwise that’s the ultimate in self-denial. (Something you seem to have a lot of, but hey, no one’s perfect.) Posted by: Dave at April 18, 2006 12:03 PM
Comment #141430

you say teachers are under paid not so.if you take the income of a teacher and take into consideration they only work 6 months out of the yr they make a good income.

Posted by: david at April 18, 2006 12:39 PM
Comment #141440

JayJay,

First of all, the people I know in nursing tell me its a different story - that more experienced nurses tend to get more responsibility (e.g. more patients, harder cases, etc)- if you are talking about your particular situation or a condition that exists occasionally or even with some degree of frequency that is still different than the situation with teachers in that ALL teachers are given full 100% responsibility for their classes from day one.

Second, even if the condition that you describe were universal, I fail to see how it should change my point (if we want better teachers we should concentrate on making teachers better - not treating them like disposable commodities as the Hamilton Project recommends). You seem to be implying that because an intolerable situation exists in one profession that we should thus apply that principle to all. This is too common of a response by people who are unhappy about their conditions - rather than working to their own improve their own lot, they try to drag others down.

Finally, the example you give to counter my point just proves me correct. A resident may be expected to give the same level of care as an attending physician but they obviously don’t have the same level of responsibility. To parallel the experience of teachers, a potential physician would have a six month internship and then go directly to being an attending physician or into private practice. They would not have the opportunity to consult with other physicians during the course of treatment and they would be held accountable for how every patient fares according to a supposedly objective scale that fails to take into account whether he/she is treating patients with GI problems or advanced stage cancer.

Sorry for going on like this - but it just amazes me how often policy makers and pundits start going off about what should be done about education when they haven’t really got a clue about how things work or what the problems really are.

Posted by: Camillus at April 18, 2006 1:06 PM
Comment #141441

Jack

“My belief is that these are people on the left trying to portray their conservative stereotype. After that all the other lefties can talk with their eyes closes and smugly smell their own farts while they decry the uneducated conservatives. “

What a load of garbage! I suppose Jeff Gannon was a Liberal plant as well. Is this what your party has to result to now?

Posted by: Vincent Vega at April 18, 2006 1:07 PM
Comment #141442

Dave

You guys take way to much offense to what I write. You have no right to your indignation.

We get titles on the other side such as lying comes naturally to Republicans, Republican elitism, Republican culture of corruption, and you complain about my implications in a piece that praises democrats without significant equivication (something NOBODY on the blue side has ever done for us.)

Paul’s posts are predictable. They don’t bother me, except for the fact that he seems to believe them and others do too. I know lots of Republicans, and I have never met this stupid, rich, religious, bigot you always talk about. When you find him, please send his telephone number.

And as for my implication, I think Rubin and the Dems associated with him are smart and understand how things work. I think many Dems do not. Many of their ideas are looney forms of redistribution. Many of the policies are racist and counterproductive. That is why I am not a Dem. If I thought they were right, I would be on their side. That is my opinion. I don’t call people names. People can disagree, but if they take offense, it is their misfortune and not mine.

Re conservative - I don’t know about this particular guy. I do believe people write in under cover. The textual analysis of some of the posts like this leads me that conclusion. If you can use a semi-colon properly, you probably can make your nouns and verbs agree. In addition, many of these are one shot deals. The person appears and then is gone.

There are nutty conservatives, as there are nutty liberals (I could name some liberal posters, but that would violate policy), but sometimes it is just too neat to be true.

It is also suspicious that he would choose a name like conservative. The devil doesn’t introduce himself as “devil”. A person with strongly felt beliefs is more likely to call himself something like “true believer” or “voice of reason”. Or maybe by his own nickname (as I do).

There are some long term people whose views are well known who do that. Aldous occassionally catches some newcomer off guard with his pseudo-conservative rants.


Posted by: Jack at April 18, 2006 1:09 PM
Comment #141444

Jack,

When did you become the expert on nicknames?

Are you watching too much CSI or something?

Posted by: Vincent Vega at April 18, 2006 1:22 PM
Comment #141447

Vincent

I am not an expert in many things, but I am an observer of propaganda.

There are patterns to the way people misspell words, the type of mistakes they make and the words they choose. It is difficult for an educated person to appear uneducated in print. Certain things betray him.

For example, if I write “I am also aggry that demacrats don’t…”, I am not writing an uneducated sentence, despite the mispellings. Those misspelling are not common AND placement of the word also behind instead of in front of the “am” indicates some training beyond grade school.

Let me be clear. Some conservatives write silly things. So do some liberals. But sometimes liberals (and I suppose conservatives) write under false pretenses.

Real conservatives don’t hate liberals. We pity them for being what they are and fervently hope that they will recover from their error.

Posted by: Jack at April 18, 2006 1:38 PM
Comment #141455

I’ve just finished reading this thread and have a few comments to Beijing Rob who wrote:

—-First, one of the most simple ways the federal government can improve the quality of this nation’s teachers is to pay them more.—-

First, the federal government doesn’t determine teachers pay - that’s a state/local function.
Second, why would we want to pay the current crop of “poor”(no pun intended)quality teachers more money? We’d just end up with the same “poor” quality education, but at a higher cost. If we really want a “throw-money-at-them” solution (like most liberals do) we could try paying higher starting salaries to attract better talent into the field and then follow up with a pay for performance system like most private industry does.

Posted by: bobc at April 18, 2006 1:56 PM
Comment #141456

Thanks.

But you should save your pity for all of the Republicans going to jail in the near future. At least those who are not already there. Didn’t another one go down yesterday? Sorry I have a hard time keeping track.

Posted by: Vincent Vega at April 18, 2006 1:56 PM
Comment #141458

Yeah

I guess they will join Congressman Jefferson. You have to be pretty corrupt to stand out for corruption in Louisiana

Posted by: Jack at April 18, 2006 2:00 PM
Comment #141461

Jack,

No offense is taken as I generally don’t take anything from a blog personaly. However, it is undeniable that partisan politics infuses “flame bait” phraseology into everyday speech to the point where many people don’t even notice when they use it (your post was a borderline case at worst). I try to use it only intentionally but I’m sure it slips in other times anyway.

Let’s use a few of your gems:

from your 1:09 post:
“I know lots of Republicans, and I have never met this stupid, rich, religious, bigot you always talk about.”
“Stupid” doesn’t mean “intellectually unintelligent” It generally means blind moral hypocrisy. Also, you either don’t know people with money or don’t understand what bigotry is if you can’t fill in the rich/religious/bigot triad.
“(I could name some liberal posters, but that would violate policy),” I am proud to be a socially progressive liberal. You can call me that all you like. Perhaps it’s only in your mind or maybe in your usage that “liberal” is something less than admirable.

from your 1:38 post;
“Real conservatives don’t hate liberals. We pity them for being what they are and fervently hope that they will recover from their error.” Despite it’s attempt at humor, this would seem to display the eliteism the left says most on the so-called right have.

Posted by: Dave at April 18, 2006 2:10 PM
Comment #141462

Jeff,
“We now see clearly that when Republicans run the government, spending goes through the roof for no other reason than to line the pockets of the extremely wealthy (except maybe to start and run the odd, unnecessary war or two)…Essential services are cut. Long running, extremely popular programs (like social security) are attacked. AND, the budget deficit skyrockets. Again, why is this? So Bill Gates can pay a few million less in taxes?”


Dude, you are (soooo) in denial of this (current) economy. 4.7% unemployment, low inflation, housing market is still smoking, and home ownership is at an all-time high. All this, while in two wars and coming out of a “perfect storm” recession (.com bubble, 9/11, and corporate scandals), that’s huge! Huge! And, we’re rolling along. So, enough with the 1930’s economic woes; we’re doing just fine and the future looks good. Later.

Posted by: rahdigly at April 18, 2006 2:15 PM
Comment #141465

Dave

Let me get this straight. You are think it is bad that I defend Republicans against the sterotype of being rich, religous and bigoted?

Yes, there are individual Republicans who have all three of these characteristics. And YES there are individual Dems who have all three characteristics. I did not mean that EVERY Republican was perfect. I was trying to refer to Republicans generically. I did not succeed in expressing that (evidently) but I do not believe you can chalk that up as a negative comment, if you are not more upset about the original premise of what I was opposing.

Re error. It is a joke, but also not. I believe liberals are often in error. I expect you believe the same about conservatives. If we didn’t, we wouldn’t take the sides we do.

When I judge a policy or opinion, I don’t ask if it is Republican or Democrat. I ask if it is right. My value system leads me to favor Republican ideas more often, although my posting on the Hamilton project (as well as earlier ones defending Clinton etc) show that I am practically the only one on either side who says anything nice about the opposition without a big qualification.

Since I am partisan, when I don’t agree with a Republican policy, I tend to write nothing at all. I am not fair and balanced like Fox.

Posted by: Jack at April 18, 2006 2:25 PM
Comment #141466

Bobc,

Those are bold statements about our teachers. Let me retort.

First (since this is a conservative blog) why don’t we talk about conservative education? That would mean your party’s brilliant plan of “No Child Left Behind.” How is that working for you? Didn’t our President run on this plan 6 years ago? What has it accomplished since? This plan has ripped education apart and has had its finances cut since it started. I think it has been cut more than Tom Delay’s taxes. The costs end up going to the teachers. They must continue to take classes on their dime. Since it is a 30,000 dollar profession you might understand that this is not easy for most of them. More education is defiantly needed, but we cannot expect teachers to pay for it out of their own pocket. In any other business, the company pays for extra training. Why not in education?

Secondly, why not create a “No Parent Left Behind” clause. Why is it that we do not punish parents who spend no time helping their child’s education? Do you really think we can compete with the world economy namely China and India without the support of parents? It is hard to expect a student to do well when they are spending after school taking care of siblings or doing other stuff that adults should be doing for them. If they could just focus on learning with the help of their parents we would see a major difference. How hard is it to read with your child a few times a week? How many of you do this simple task?

Finally, I do think that there are some teachers that would be better served in another profession. These people are typically baby boomers who are burned out on years of changing education. My solution is at the State level. Each district would be wise to offer a buyout of these contracts. That way they can still get retirement and input some new blood into the profession. Yes, that is a liberal spending more money, but I would rather spend it on education than tax breaks for the District Superintendents.

By the way, of course Republicans do not like the process of education. It is funded through taxes. They would rather use that money for Regan’s Star Wars program.

Just my take on it.

Posted by: Vincent Vega at April 18, 2006 2:25 PM
Comment #141480
I am not fair and balanced like Fox.

Posted by: Jack at April 18, 2006 02:25 PM

Good one! You actually got a smile AND a laugh out of me.

As for the evil Republican nonsense. When did I say every conservative was a rich/religous/bigot? Yet, I’m curious, do you deny my phraseology observation? Did you think I applied it only to freepers?
As for the recent “liberals are racist” as a class; that’s a specious argument. It’s just a new GOPer mantra to “take away” from DEM power instead of “adding value” to our culture. We are all racists to some extent, it’s all about what we do about it. But, programs such as race based affirmative action are not “racism”.

Vincent,

Teacher pay is low but not everything is about money.

Posted by: Dave at April 18, 2006 3:08 PM
Comment #141483

Confession: I use two pseudonyms on this blog. I suspect Jack knows. I don’t, however, pretend to be more conservative when I use this pseudonym. I just like the offensive nature of this pseudonym as a barb in the sides of Republicans.

While I recognize Hamilton was a founding father, wasn’t he also the one who profited personally from treasury securities and was sleeping around and then accused others of low behavior, which eventually got him shot?

I really haven’t had time to read it yet, but the thing about rewarding teachers for performance always makes me nervous. Teaching is a very personal and unique thing. It’s very fuzzy and ill defined. I have a few relatives who are teachers, and they believe that it always becomes a game of politics as to who is best at teaching, its not something easy to valuate. The truth is the family of a child impinges most on learning successes.

Posted by: Jack Mohammedoff at April 18, 2006 3:33 PM
Comment #141484

David wrote:

you say teachers are under paid not so.if you take the income of a teacher and take into consideration they only work 6 months out of the yr they make a good income.

You’re trying to bait me but I won’t bite. (although I must say you clearly are a master at baiting).

Posted by: Camillus at April 18, 2006 3:35 PM
Comment #141485

Of course, it WAS a VP who shot Hamilton!;)

Posted by: Jack Mohammedoff at April 18, 2006 3:37 PM
Comment #141493

Jack

I thought this was a good post and doesn’t deserve some of the nettling. There are idiots on both sides, and I’m sure we disagree on the relative percentages. However, the gem I take home from your post is that we need to synthesize the best and brightest thinking on both sides. I, for one, believe that while government can make life better for all of us, while tending to the needs of the least fortunate, it should do so with as much efficiency as humanly possible. Much of my work is funded through the government (as well as some from industry) and I have tried to create within my organization an ethic that spending the public’s money is a sacred trust and that justification for each expenditure should be done as though it were ones household money. This contrasts to the attitude that many of my colleagues have, in which one spends, sometimes unwisely, to avoid losing funds.

Regarding the teacher problem problem, my primary and secondary education was in both public and private schools, and both had about the same mix of talented and untalented teachers. The biggest difference was in the students: the ratio of high-achieving students was much higher in the private schools, which allowed the classes to be taught at a more advanced level. Most of those who complain about the quality of public school teachers are pathetically uninformed. I am a believer in Deming’s philosophy that most working people are highly motivated and want to do a good job; most problems arise from the systems in place, not the personnel. I think the last 50 years of increased productivity and quality in Japan and the US have borne him out on this. And I think this applies to public schools as well. We have constrained our public educators in multiple ways: financially, administratively, disciplinarily, and materially. The forces that have done this are multiple and competing: a tax-hating meme among a vocal minority coupled with increasing burdens placed on urban schools; parents and lawyers whose attitudes toward authority and whose litigation undercut administrative power and class discipline; and a general meddlesomeness in our population that makes it difficult to produce good, balanced curricula, e.g., the ID gambit.

It will take time to undo all this, but the first step is to fund the schools adequately to meet the challenges we have placed on them. The second is to reinstill in our population and politicians the shared mission of education, not only as a way of producing an educated workforce for our capitalist economy, but also as the source of competent citizens who can keep the ship right and participate actively in our country.

Regarding internationalism, it will probably come eventually, if we don’t blow apart first, but it is for the far future, given the challenges of nationalism and religiosity that plague us presently.

Again, thanks for a thoughtful post, Jack.

Posted by: mental wimp at April 18, 2006 3:59 PM
Comment #141499

Beware of the newfound brotherly love between Republicans and Democrats, the new found bi-partisanship, the new found, “we’ll work it through togehter” rhetoric, which President Bush is spouting with his new appointees today. What is really happening is the anti-incumbent poll numbers.

Vote Out Incumbents for Democracy and keep the pressure to do good, on! Eventually their actions will even begin to look like their talk.

Posted by: David R. Remer at April 18, 2006 4:09 PM
Comment #141514

Dave,

“Teacher pay is low but not everything is about money.”
You must not have a rent payment.

David,
“you say teachers are under paid not so.if you take the income of a teacher and take into consideration they only work 6 months out of the yr they make a good income.”

Does that count for the endless time AFTER CLOCK HOURS when they are correcting papers and creating assignments for the next day? Or the summers they have to spend in college getting credits for a continuing education they are paying for? Is that the 6 months you are talking about? Or are you just talking out of your…

Posted by: Vincent Vega at April 18, 2006 4:53 PM
Comment #141517

Vincent,

My point was that many teachers I know aren’t doing it for the money. Personaly, I think we’d be better off if public school teachers pay was $400k and the President’s was $30k.

Posted by: Dave at April 18, 2006 4:58 PM
Comment #141521

Dave,

Thanks.

Posted by: Vincent Vega at April 18, 2006 5:02 PM
Comment #141523

There are a lot of reasons why our Education system is failing, and mostly I think it’s pay. My mom’s teaches education, so I got to tag along with her as a kid while she evaluated other teachers and schools. This was in New York, and it was really eye-opening for me. You would not believe how many schools are like prisons. If you want to teach a kid to read… it helps to have books!

On the other hand I also think the credentialing system as are the school programs. I took a course at Columbia’s School of Education and was shocked to find out that hardly any of the kids, many of whom will be teaching in classrooms, have no on the job training at all. Spending any time in a classroom is just not a part of the curriculuum. It’s all theory. Also, I think if you are going to teach, say Biology, you probably need to take Biology classes, not just Education courses.

Personally, I think if you see teachers getting paid as much as doctors you would see a big difference. How much funding we give education is a real reflection of how much we care about it. Of course with the hole Bush has put us in, unfortunately I think increased funding is a ship that sailed.

Posted by: Max at April 18, 2006 5:15 PM
Comment #141535

Newt,

Whatta guy, a real family man. He’s done almost as much as Bush to restore our national pride.

Whatta thunker too. Put him, Tom Cruise, and Michael Jackson together and you could have a really great debate.

Posted by: Max at April 18, 2006 5:39 PM
Comment #141542

All anyone ever talks about is throwing more money at education. What you start paying teachers like Bill Gates and the system will get better. Thats LUDACRIS!!! How is that going to bring more quality to the mix? The problem is so many of these school boards spend more time complaining about what they don’t have then getting down and trying to get done what needs to be done with the budget they have. Teachers have to start being held to high standards and support measures to allow more disipline in the classrooms. I went to a small private school with a total of 150 students no school lunch Football field or many of the other amenities public school students in my own town had; the teachers made a third less also, when I got to college I didn’t have to hardly open a book till Junior Year. We had already covered most of it in H.S. Money something but everything to do with it. What you need is a roof, lights, heat, books, teachers that care and a system that support their efforts PERIOD.

Posted by: Adam at April 18, 2006 5:57 PM
Comment #141546

Max

The article about Newt just makes you wonder how Daniel Bell got a reputation as a smart guy. He says a lot but nothing important about his subject.

So what if Newt wrong a paper on the Belgian Congo and never returned to it. He probably learned enough when writing not to want to return.

It is typical of a guy like Bell, who has done nothing practical himself, to look back into the past and criticize someone who has changed history for what he did in school. You know Bill Gates dropped out of college and Edison never went. I suppose Bell would consider them unqualifed for successs.

Posted by: Jack at April 18, 2006 6:24 PM
Comment #141548

TheConservative was Betty Burke. Notice how she only posted about “TheConservative“‘s deficiency in grammar, spelling, etc.(a subject she tends to post about quite often) and was gone without commenting at all on the original post. Another mystery solved by your friendly neighborhood Duano!!

Posted by: Duano at April 18, 2006 6:40 PM
Comment #141553

Adam

when I got to college I didn’t have to hardly open a book till Junior Year. We had already covered most of it in H.S. Money something but everything to do with it. What you need is a roof, lights, heat, books, teachers that care and a system that support their efforts PERIOD.

I’d ask for your money back.

Boards of large companies seem to think that throwing money at its CEOs will improve financial performance of their companies. Are they “throwing money at the problem”? I think the principle here is that paying more for a valued position will attract a higher caliber of professional, because you can then compete with other professions that might attract the same individual, but have a higher pay grade. For example, a good teacher might also make a good lawyer or doctor. No one is suggesting that public school teachers make that kind of money, but by lessening the pay differential a few more of the best and brightest might decide they can provide well enough for their families and follow their ideals at the same time.

Posted by: mental wimp at April 18, 2006 7:15 PM
Comment #141555
Boards of large companies seem to think that throwing money at its CEOs will improve financial performance of their companies. Are they “throwing money at the problem”? I think the principle here is that paying more for a valued position will attract a higher caliber of professional …

Hmmmmm … Well, I’m sure the following esteemed CEOs, CFO, Presidents, and VPs would agree:
______________________________
Ken Lay (ENRON)
Bernard Ebbers (WorldCOM)
David Myers (WorldCOM)
Dennis Kozlowski (Tyco)
Mark H. Swartz (Tyco)
John Rigas (Aldelphia)
Timothy Rigas (Aldelphia)
Scott Sullivan (WorldCOM)
Burford Yates (WolrdCOM)
Jeff Skilling (ENRON)
Andrew Fastow (ENRON)
Lea Fastow (ENRON)
Samuel D. Waksal (ImClone Systems)
David Duncan (Arthur Andersen)
E. Kirk Shelton (Cendant)
Ben Glisan Jr. (ENRON)
Dan Boyle (ENRON)
Weston Smith (HealthSouth)
Aaron Beam (HealthSouth)
______________________________

Posted by: d.a.n at April 18, 2006 7:27 PM
Comment #141558


I’d ask for your money back

FUNNY!

I have friends in the MA public school system
making over 60 K a year, in some of the worst rated schools in the country. The fact of the matter is that people who are the best teachers are not always motivated by the big paycheck that they are going to get, they do it for the most part because they want to par take in a career where they can make a difference, and their own satisfactions. I dont think we need any other sort of thinking person taking such a job especially someone in it for the money, it’s not what it is about. The bums that subvert the system with their ridiculous lawsuits and rules that have tied the teachers hands in the classrooms should be expelled from the system. The discipline must re-instilled and leaders with a can-do attitude need to step up dismissing this we can’t do it attitude we hear all the time from the “talking heads” on TV. Money is not the first step here, we have got to fix the fundamentals first.

Posted by: Adam at April 18, 2006 7:40 PM
Comment #141561

Adam

And I can point to many an overpaid CEO who drove the company into the ground and was rewarded with a large severance package when he was exited. This doesn’t mean that the high pay doesn’t mostly attract highly talented, motivated, and effective CEOs. Teacher’s salaries are, in fact, a problem, according to the NSF.

The situation in my state is clear. The real-dollar equivalent per pupil spent now is greater than it was in the 1960s, 70s, and 80s. However, this is in the face of a school system that has to address the influx of non-native speaking children, increased levels of inadequate preschool preparation, and mandates to mainstream the learning challenged. And (I’m pretty sure this is true all over) due to the nation-wide tax-cutting fervor over the last few years, we’ve actually seen a retreat in the real-dollar per pupil funding.

Rather than reading conservative blogs and newspapers, or listening to Fox news, go down to your local elementary or high school and poke around a bit. I have, and I’ve talked to school board members, involved parents, and the kids, and they are strapped for a lot of resources you and I had. I’m not talking about the pathetic withdrawal of music, sports, and arts, or even the poor lighting, cracked walls and inadequate HVAC systems. The books are crappy, supplies are short, and the teachers have no staff support. Classes are frequently disrupted, and good teachers are quitting to go into more lucrative positions.

By the way, $60K is pretty pathetic for someone with a master’s degree, which most senior teachers have. This is especially true for those with graduate degrees in our most pressing areas, i.e., math and science. If you are more than an arm-chair general on this, I encourage you to do more than observe that your friends that teach in MA make what appears to you to be a lot of money and dig a little deeper. It’s an issue that’s easy to demogogue to people who don’t do their own research.

Lastly, I agree with you that there are other structural and societal changes that need to be made in order to improve our educational system and become competitive once again with the rest of the world. Just don’t assume that our teachers are overpaid or incompetent.

Posted by: mental wimp at April 18, 2006 8:38 PM
Comment #141568

Yeah Yeah…

We gotta spend more and the teachers need more….I dont assume that they are lazy. I do believe that there has to be a fundamental change in the way the public education must administrated before we go on and assume money will save the day. The changes must come along or before the money. The system is broken up top and the crap falls down, the teachers on the front line and the students are the ones that are getting screwed here but you cant fix an upper systematic problem by throwing money at the front line. By doing that you are just making the miserable experience a little more bearable your not fixing anything; then the new money is then the new norm and you need more to make it more bearable again.

Posted by: Adam at April 18, 2006 9:52 PM
Comment #141570

As usual, Jack bags when caught. Is he left without a preapproved party line answer? Or am I being a dickwad? Selfcongratulatory bats need not reply.

Posted by: Dave at April 18, 2006 9:58 PM
Comment #141581

adam,

“I do believe that there has to be a fundamental change in the way the public education must administrated before we go on and assume money will save the day. The changes must come along or before the money. The system is broken up top and the crap falls down, the teachers on the front line and the students are the ones that are getting screwed here but you cant fix an upper systematic problem by throwing money at the front line”

How many parents of those students really give a rat’s ass about their childrens educations?

How many of those parents attend parent/teacher conferences?

How many parents send their children to school prepared to learn?

That’s where the system is falling down.

Posted by: Rocky at April 18, 2006 10:59 PM
Comment #141603
When I judge a policy or opinion, I don’t ask if it is Republican or Democrat. I ask if it is right… Since I am partisan, when I don’t agree with a Republican policy, I tend to write nothing at all. I am not fair and balanced like Fox. Posted by: Jack at April 18, 2006 02:25 PM

So what you are implying is that when you feel your party is in error, you prefer silent partisanship to your better judgement. What happened to the team player, American society talk? Or was that team you were referring to the republican party?

Posted by: Amani at April 19, 2006 12:27 AM
Comment #141647
My belief is that these are people on the left trying to portray their conservative stereotype.

Jack:

You are so, so - sadly - wrong.

This guy - like so many other Right-WingNuts - is a perfect example of what I have been pointing up (more on Duano downpage), to wit: Conservatives tend to be more ignorant, less well-informed, and less well-edumacated.

Which is perfectly understandable, since it was Conservatives who:

- tried Galileo,

- don’t/didn’t believe in Global Warming `(just saw a nice documentary on that, Jackster, which explains your “cooling trend” nicely, and which will [should] scare the beJesus out of you - check out the top three links from this search:

http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&safe=off&as_qdr=all&q=+%22global+dimming%22+%22pan+evaporation%22

so, if we stop producing the Particulates, the Global Warming becomes Global Frying in short order: the Greenland Ice Sheet melts and Seal Level goes up by 80 feet instead of the predicted 20’ predicted without taking Global Dimming into consideration)… But, back to the Conservative Agenda:

- are against Stem Cell research,

- don’t want Evolution taught (hey, Conservatives, have you heard about the recently-found Walking Fish?):

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/04/0405_060405_fish.html

- are in favour of doing away entirely with Public Education and PBS, or,

- failing that, will satisfy themselves with underfunding both to the point that it’s a dinstinction without a difference.

So, you get what your Fearless Conservative Oligarchs wanted: a pliably sthooopid Consumer Monkeymass who are happy to content themselves squeezing CheezWiz onto WonderBread washed down with plenty of BudLite as they watch NASCAR and “American Idol” on their Bread&Circuses Machine.

This guy - TheConservative - is the product of just that sort of thinking and the programme it engendered. And he has posted here before - which brings me to

Duano:

TheConservative was Betty Burke. Notice how she only posted about “TheConservative“‘s deficiency in grammar, spelling, etc.(a subject she tends to post about quite often) and was gone without commenting at all on the original post. Another mystery solved by your friendly neighborhood Duano!!

Nice try, Inspector Lestrade - but (as usual) Dead Wrong:

yea and your boy rodney king was gulity as shit thats why he is in trouble with the law once again. Thats the problem with you liberlas always playing the race card to get ahead. And to inform you people that conservatives are getting tired of the race game. Its old and about ready to be banned. Race card want win you any votes. Maybe win your people some unlawful untruthfull money playing your race game but not votes.

Posted by: TheConservative at April 18, 2006 12:16 AM

1.) The Above was posted in the Blue Column approximately six minutes prior to his post in this column; note that:

2.) It’s not something I would ever post *anywhere*, and:

3.) It comes after all of my posts in that thread - in fact, it comes just a few down from my last (extremely pithy) reply in it. So, I did not Answer Him, and,

4.) This fellow (like many Conservatives) seems to have a particular Thing about Race: he brings it up in both posts, and viciously so. Clearly, he is quite a Racist himself, and thinks he is playing “tit-for-tat” with it semantically. Plus,

5.) I do not have to engage in such mindless Conservative-like subterfuges: Truth and Right are on my side; all I have to do is point out the Facts and be myself. You see, people don’t become Right because they are Liberal; rather, they become Liberal because they are Right.

Funny that you should have such an Idea, Duano - isn’t it? Isn’t that just exactly the sort of Dirty Trick that Conservatives are always thinking up? Watergate? The Plame-Wilson leak? Etc.? Wellwellwell…

Duano’s just angry with me because of this:

Duano asked:
Thanks, Betty, for that insightful and articulate comment. You’ve convinced me now. How do I become so hateful? Please, please show me.

Posted by: Duano at April 12, 2006 10:40 PM


Hmmmmm…

Don’t tell the American Communist Lawyers Union, they won⦣x20AC;™t know who to sue anyway. Posted by: Duano at February 16, 2006 07:58 PM
Atheism is a religion that is adhered to by fanatics who will stop at nothing to impose an theocracy; on the rest of America! This secular jihad is no less dangerous than Islamic jihad and should be dealt with in the same manner, preemption. Posted by: Duano at February 20, 2006 07:41 PM


Simple solution: Minefield all along our southern border and national guard backing up the border patrol for any lucky ones who get past it. Problem solved.
Posted by: Duano at March 3, 2006 01:34 PM

I’m tired of hearing about the poor, quite honestly. This is the only country in the world where the poor are fat. Posted by: Duano at March 3, 2006 02:40 PM


I will pray for all those who have blasphemed the name of the Almighty on this thread.
Posted by: Duano at March 16, 2006 10:20 AM

I usually don’t wear my religion on my sleeve, but if I don’t tell you the truth, God will ask me to account for your life. My job here is done. It’s up to you to decide. CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHOM YOU WILL SERVE. I’m done with this conversation. AND WHOSOEVER SHALL NOT RECEIVE YOU, NOR HEAR YOUR WORDS, WHEN YE DEPART OUT OF THAT HOUSE OR CITY, SHAKE OFF THE DUST OF YOUR FEET. VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, IT SHALL BE MORE TOLERABLE FOR THE LAND OF SODOM AND GOMORRHA IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT THAN FOR THAT CITY. Posted by: Duano at March 16, 2006 12:46 PM
I thought the Democrats are the Socialist PartyUSA. Or was that Communist PartyUSA? Posted by: Duano at March 17, 2006 09:08 PM
How about keeping your ignorant, mentally retarded religion of atheism out of our(90%of Americans) lives and go have a liberal socialist European circle jerk with George Sauros and Michael Moore. “THE FOOL HATH SAID IN HIS HEART ‘THERE IS NO GOD’ ” Posted by: Duano at April 14, 2006 10:33 PM
Cindy Sheehan is glad her son died. It has given her the celebrity she has lusted after her whole life. Casey didn’t even communicate with his mom. Posted by: Duano at March 20, 2006 07:53 PM


[Wrings Hands] Satan! Get behind me!


I’d say you’ve pretty well got it covered, HolyRoller. Just keep pounding away…
Posted by: Betty Burke at April 15, 2006 05:13 AM

That’s all: he wants to revenge himself with his Conspiracy Theories because Big Bad Betty called him on his own Question and quoted exactly what’s going on in his mind.

It doesn’t bother me; I can take it. I’ve had worse from better.

Posted by: Betty Burke at April 19, 2006 8:22 AM
Comment #141648

Wooops! “Sea Level” - not “Seal Level.”

(Of course, the Seal Level will rise as well: what with New York, L.A., San Francisco, and *ALL* of Florida under 80’ of water!)

Posted by: Betty Burke at April 19, 2006 8:25 AM
Comment #141674

Dave

“bags”. What do you mean? I don’t think Bell has standing to talk about it and if you read the article there is no “there” there.

If you mean that I don’t respond to everything, lots of people write to and about me. I have a full time job, which keeps me busy until about 7 and then I have to do various volunteer things etc. I write between other tasks and I skim. Sometimes I miss something. Other times I don’t know it is a question that is seeking a real answer.

I occassionally play with answering the Bush is stupid and we fight so Halliburton can make tons of money people, but I really cannot answer them because they cannot understand my arguments in these cases.

And sometimes I revert to the same answers because people are asking the same questions.

And how do I (who sometimes spells poorly and makes typos, but really does have a superb education and experience working in many countries overseas) answer those who say that conservatives are ill informed and poorly educated. To wit:

Betty

If we are do dumb, how come we keep on outsmarting you guys? According to your party line, we managed to steal two or three elections right out from under you, even while you were watching.

Posted by: Jack at April 19, 2006 10:18 AM
Comment #141681

To Beijing Rob:

Your spelling of stipend as stypen tells me all I need to know about quality teachers. The simple facts are this:

The overall quality of teachers and student education steadily deteriorated after the federal government established the Department of Education in 1979.

The “education” degree at most colleges and universities is the easiest program to enter and requires so little effort to graduate.

Those who can do, and those who can’t teach. If the pay is so horrible, why are there so many teachers applying for jobs to teach?

The pay for teaching has always been low, excepting some elite public and private schools. The teachers of 30 and 40 years ago could read, write and speak the English language with skill and aplomb. Today’s teachers are a far cry from the old.

Again, if the pay sucks, the hours are long and the emotional stress is so bad, why do so many young people enter the profession? Because they can’t take the math and science courses they need to enter the high paying enginering/technical arena.

Teachers and the unions have created a protective shield against mediocre and truly bad teachers. Every time a bad teacher is identified by a school system, especially if that teacher is black and or a female, the unions claim racist, woman hating people are making the accusation. Protection of their substandard teachers (paying union dues of course) is paramount and educating students is only a tertiary goal.

In my opinion, if teachers don’t like the job, then walk off the job in mass and take the consequences. Quit whining for a change!

Posted by: Beak at April 19, 2006 10:52 AM
Comment #141689

Jack,

I have a job too. But I asked a direct question to a post you directed to me. Perhaps you felt the thread at ended at that point, but it seemed more like avoidance.

Posted by: Jack at April 18, 2006 02:25 PM
Posted by: Dave at April 18, 2006 03:08 PM
As for you post to Betty, If the freepers break the rules and the Dems follow the rules, who will win the election? Ans: The cheater. Especially when the referee is in the cheaters pocket, kind of like a coup. Actually, not “kind of like”, “is” a coup.

Posted by: Dave at April 19, 2006 11:17 AM
Comment #141696

Betty Burke:

As a conservative who does not resemble your characterization posted, I must dipute you on one point.
“..are against stem cell research”
No, not at all—we just oppose EMBRYONIC stem cell research. Most everyone supports ADULT stem cell research—I am a founder of a company that will soon announce several huge applications in the treatment of diabetes, cardiovascular disease, skin and orthopedic afflictions. All using adult stem cells.

Posted by: nikkolai at April 19, 2006 11:50 AM
Comment #141698

Dave

Sorry

I don’t know what a freeper is, but unless freepers encompass all conservatives it probably does not apply only to them.

Re affirmative action, I believe that as PRACTICED today, it is a form of racism. People get advantages in jobs and school applications BECAUSE of their race. That is racism.

I can share a true personal story. My daughter is smart. When we returned from a job overseas, I tried to get her into the local AP program. You may know, AP programs are autocorrelated (i.e. those that were in last year have a bigger chance this year). She couldn’t get in.

Now for the twist. Because she was born in Latin America (we happened to be living there at the time) I always check the box that says Hispanic on the forms (it says “origins” in Latin America and she is officially a citizen of a Latin Republic). It is my little way of sticking to the man. A few weeks after being rejected, I got a letter addressed to Juan (me I guess) telling me that they found out that my daughter was so smart that they were offering her a special invitation to the AP program.

By then we didn’t care. She went into IB instead and did well. But it does show the racism inherent in the system. The same girl with the same grades is not allowed in if she is white, but invited in if she is Hispanic. What would you call that?

Posted by: Jack at April 19, 2006 12:16 PM
Comment #141703

Jack,

Re affirmative action, I believe that as PRACTICED today, it is a form of racism. People get advantages in jobs and school applications BECAUSE of their race. That is racism.

rac·ism
rac·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.
1)The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2)Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Please correlate your statement and the definition. I simply don’t see it. Affirmative action redresses past social discriminations, and is not a claim for differing traits among races. You might think it unfair since it is a decision based on race, but it is not racism.

A Freeper is an active member of the Free Republic site.Free Republic’s mission statement is:

Broadly stated, the goals of this site are to further conservatism, expose political corruption, and recover a truly constitutional form of government. As a conservative site, Free Republic is pro-God, pro-life, pro-family, pro-Constitution, pro-Bill of Rights, pro-gun, pro-limited government, pro-private property rights, pro-limited taxes, pro-capitalism, pro-national defense, pro-freedom, and pro-America.
But is basically filled with a bunch of flaming assholes who boot anyone who doesn’t follow their party line then deletes the posts.


I don’t know what “AP” you’re reffering to. Or what is “IB”. Is that “Advanced Placement”? If so, I wasn’t aware it was being rationed in some school districts. That would sound more like a funding problem with NCLB.


Posted by: Dave at April 19, 2006 12:53 PM
Comment #141706

I think affirmative action fits #2)Discrimination or prejudice based on race. As I said, when they thought my daughter was white, she couldn’t get in at all. When they thought she was Hispanic, they couldn’t invite her in fast enough.

The idea that you can redress past discrimination against individuals by punishing or advantaging current members of a group that looks like them is silly.

I can accept some (but be careful) redress for African Americans, some of whom suffered egregious discrimination here in America and who have been an identifiable group throughout U.S. history. But not for immigrants or women, who did not suffer at all in the U.S. historically Let me explain why.

Women are not a sustainable group. We all have an equal number of male and female ancestors. By definition nobody has been exclusively in the “woman” group longer than an individual lifetime. If “they” discriminated against my grandmother, that does not mean it makes sense to discriminate against me in retaliation. We all have an a similar number of victims and perps in our family line. There is no group continuity. John D. Rockefeller’s granddaughter probably is not suffering and to punish the grandson of one of his employees makes no sense.

Immigrants just got here. My ancestors were oppressed by Czars, Dukes,Kaisers and cossaks, but NOT in America. America owes me no redress for these past sufferings and I don’t owe anything to a new immigrant or his kids. In fact, they should be happy we let them into our great country.

My daughter’s origin in Latin America should not be a reason to give her extra points. BTW

AP = advanced placement
IB = International Baccalaureate

IB is a great program. Enroll your kids. It is what school should be. If all kids took that we wouldn’t have such ignant folks around.

Posted by: Jack at April 19, 2006 1:20 PM
Comment #141707

I just wanted to clarify a few things:

I am not advocating that we merely “throw money” at educators in order to solve our problem. I do, however, believe that if the Hamilton Project’s policies about improving teacher quality were to be enacted, they would require a larger and more talented pool from which to draw from. In order to bring in a larger number of more qualified applicants, it is important that starting salaries at least be competitive with other fields.

Also, I am not just talking about higher pay. Some districts and cities have gotten more proactive about recruiting better teachers. Here’s an example of what I’m talking about: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/19/nyregion/19teach.html?ex=1303099200&en=da99715857a367ef&ei=5089&partner=rssyahoo&emc=rss Of course most educators realize that teaching is not going to be a financially lucrative career, but today’s younger and more talented graduates need better motivation to take that course.

Re: Beak

First of all, let me apologize for my egregious mistake of misspelling of ‘stipend’. I’ve spent most of my time speaking Mandarin for the last two years, so I guess my spelling ability has slipped accordingly. Always was better at grammar, anyways. Regardless, its a good thing that a single spelling error by an educator is “all you need to know” about quality teachers. It says a lot about the scope and depth with which you view education. Judgemental, short-sighted, and condescending people such as yourself are one of the main reason quality people often choose not to enter education.

Besides offering us stereotypes- “Your spelling of stipend as stypen tells me all I need to know about quality teachers”, and cliches - “Those who can do, and those who can’t teach”, you also gave us a heroic dose of innacurate and fallacious claims:

-“The overall quality of teachers and student education steadily deteriorated after the federal government established the Department of Education in 1979.”

-“Today’s teachers are a far cry from the old.”

These are just your personal opinions, not statements of fact. You should preface them with “In my opinion…” Furthermore, if indeed overall teacher qualitiy has declined, perhaps it is due moreso to an increase in teacher responsiblity and potential liablity. The potential dangers for current teachers are much higher than they ever were in the past. In most places, teachers are leagally responsible for each of their students as if they were their parent. Teachers must constantly be wary of their students’ standardized test scores. Despite their students’ capabilities, teachers risk losing their jobs if the scores are not up to snuff. Stringent enforcement of ‘special needs’ modifications for students has made it necessary for teachers to focus on the few rather than the many in order to keep their jobs. On top of all this, today’s students are by no means easier to teach than those of the past. They are much more likely to bring weapons and drugs to campus, as well as act more aggressively towards teachers and each other. If you think today’s teachers are a far cry from the old, you should see the students.

Try actually looking at the situation before you make snap judgements.

-“Again, if the pay sucks, the hours are long and the emotional stress is so bad, why do so many young people enter the profession? Because they can’t take the math and science courses they need to enter the high paying enginering/technical arena.”

-“The “education” degree at most colleges and universities is the easiest program to enter and requires so little effort to graduate.”

You might want to note that there is not an overabundance of young people entering the profession right now. In fact, many areas are seeing nearly critical shortages in key disciplines. Second, if you were not already aware, most teachers do not have a degree in Education. Instead they have a Bachelors or Masters degree in their field, coupled with a certification to teach in their state. These people must be even more dedicated, because they must do another four semesters of coursework in order to recieve that certification. Moreover, many people who earn degrees in Science, Math, and Engineering do decide to become educators simply because they love teaching. Believe it or not, some people who indeed ‘can’, do also teach.

-“Quit whining for a change!”

If you would have considered more from my origional post than just my spelling error, you might have noticed that I was actually not whining at all. I agree with the Hamilton Project’s policy ideas (if you even read them) about education reform. I also, like you, feel that excessive union involvement has intruded upon the ability of systems to improve the quality of their teachers. I was merely stating that in order to increase the volume of high quality applicants, incentives must likewise be more appealing.

Please do read the sources and open your mind a little before spewing your obvious disdain for education and educators all over the rest of us. It speaks volumes as to where your ideas and sentiments come from.

Posted by: Beijing Rob at April 19, 2006 1:20 PM
Comment #141748

China Rob:

Talk about spewing what? Your cliches and platitudes have long ago been discredited. Look at your response to me. You offer no references at all to support your statements. Your tired and worn out arguments don’t work anymore. I challenge you to compare the high school graduates from the 1960s to those of today and see which ones have higher test scores and aptitudes. As usual with your type of people, you defend a failing system, support mediocrity and encourage the dumbing down of America.

Posted by: Beak at April 19, 2006 3:45 PM
Comment #141760

beak,

“I challenge you to compare the high school graduates from the 1960s to those of today and see which ones have higher test scores and aptitudes. As usual with your type of people, you defend a failing system, support mediocrity and encourage the dumbing down of America.”

And I challange you to compare the parents of the ’60s to those of today, and let’s see whose children were ready to be educated.

Plopping a child in front of the TV, isn’t in any way preparing them to learn.

How many books do the children of today read on a regular basis?
How many schools are forced by parents to pass little Johnny and Jane even though they can’t read?

Posted by: Rocky at April 19, 2006 4:35 PM
Comment #141794

Ah, Betty,

I’m just mad because of?? Did you post that little collection of some of my finest moments somewhere before? That was the first time I saw it, and I must say, I couldn’t be prouder of myself. I stand by every one of those statements, except for maybe the one about the minefield border idea, which was intended to create a rise. Sorry about that one, but the one I am proudest of was that spectacular grail of truth you chose to EMBOLDEN, you know, about Cindy Sheehan exploiting the tragedy of her brave son Casey’s death to gain celebrity status and push her communist agenda. Everyone knows it, I just had enough courage to write my true feelings, much like you do when you say the electorate is an “ignorant monkeymass”, because they voted for Satan, er, Bush in ‘04. Dr. Dean gives you a big EEEEAAAHH!!

Posted by: Duano at April 19, 2006 7:27 PM
Comment #141795

BTW Betty,

I could spend hours going through the archives looking up all the gems you’ve bestowed upon us on this site, but I enjoy the priveledge of someting called a life. You really should try one sometime.

Posted by: Duano at April 19, 2006 7:35 PM
Comment #141845

Jack-Asked:

If we are do dumb, how come we keep on outsmarting you guys?

Two answers necessary on this one:

1.) You don’t. As correctly posted by Dave, you out-cheated The People. From the United States Commission On Civil Rights report on Racially-based disenfranchisement:

http://www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/report/main.htm

(pretty embarrassing for you guys, that…)

to the very unConservative turn of the Scaliquist Star Chamber against States’ Rights, to the 3,500 elderly Jewish Holocaust Survivors whose Votes counted for Pat Buchanan (who has repeatedly said that even he knows they meant to vote for Gore) - the thing was Rigged. It was indeed, a Coup. Very UnConstitutional: bad tyrants; no credibility!

In 2004, you went from the atrocious and vile (even for you guys!) SwiftBoat ads, to the Vote-Rigging in Ohio:

http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2005/1111

(take a look at the Sidebar stories on Diebold over on the right-hand column…)

you did it again. With the sort of Animal Cunning possessed by Richard Nixon, Roy Cohn, and Joseph McCarthy, you engaged in the very dirtiest of Dirty Tricks. You did not win a Fair Election. You violated the American Ideal, the Law, the Constitution, and your own previouslyp-stated principles in order to “win” yet more Power. Congratulations. You must be so proud.

But then, Pride goeth before a Fall…

2.) You are not ALL Ignorant.

Some of you are Evil.

The ones who are the most Intelligent - the Planners, the Directors: the Kissingers, Roves, Pearles, Etc. - are the Most Evil. They know that they are breaking the Law, the Constitution, and every precept of Morality as civilised society understands it. And they just don’t care.

Jack, I once had a Conservative Industrialist (Oil) actually say to me at a party, “Who cares if the Grand Canyon is strip-mined so my Grandchildren can’t see it?! I’ve already seen the damn thing!” He was completely serious and earnest: in his mind, he had experienced the Grand Canyon; there was therfore simply no further need for him to be concerned about its preservation.

The Evil Smart guys amongst Conservatives are the ones driving Policy: the Montgomery Burnses of the party knowingly create a willing army of Marching Morons who believe anything Rush or Sean or Bill-O tell them to. They achieve this by destroying Public Education and encouraging a fanatical hatred and distrust of Learning, Wisdom, and Critical Thinking. Since Conservatism is a bankrupt philosophy - (morally speaking, not in terms of Rapine and Profiteering) - they must, of necessity, be Evil in order to champion it for the purposes of their own aggrandisement.

The rule of thumb is: the less Ignorant any given Conservative is, the more Evil they are likely to be; the less Evil any given Conservative is, the more Ignorant they are likely to be. This rule works well under most circumstances - of course, their are Exceptions. For example, both Tom Delay and Ralph Reed are *both* Evil and Ignorant.

According to your party line, we managed to steal two or three elections right out from under you, even while you were watching.

And so you admit it: and thereby demonstrate your utter disregard for Law, Morality, and the American Ideal. Thank you for (once again) proving my point, Jack.

Posted by: Betty Burke at April 19, 2006 10:25 PM
Comment #141849

P.S. - ohhhh, Ja-a-a-a-a-a-ack

From one of Conservatisms Best Examples, over in the Blue Zone:

dAUGHERTY THE ONLY WAR THAT YOU WOULD SUPPORT IS A WAR AGAINST THE WHITE HOUSE.yES SIR I THINK YOU WOULD GLADDLY DECAPETATE GEORGE BUSH OR CHENY OR RUMSFEILD.Why sir are you not running for office?Shit man you are a problem solver this country needs youR great mind.Lets make the second sunday of june DAUGHERTY DAY.Im not the brightest bulb in the box but you get my drift im sure.I sir am 100% american and 100% proud of it whats you excuse?

Posted by: saying at April 19, 2006 04:29 PM

How proud you must be, Jack! To share such important Views with this giant of Intellect, this Colossus of Public Discourse!


[*snicker*]

Posted by: Betty Burke at April 19, 2006 10:35 PM
Comment #141855

Betty

If we can cheat right in front of Democratic observers, with liberal media all around, how smart do we have to be compared to the competition?

Of course, I don’t believe anyone cheated in any significant way. When the actual indictments come down, there tend to be more Dems. YOu guys have lots of stories, sort of like the Loch Ness monster or ghosts. You all believe them, but nobody can produce real evidence.

I have hiked to the bottom of the Grand Canyon and been at the top three times. I don’t think there is anything to strip mine anyway. But you can believe that I am a better environmentalist than most liberals. I don’t develop or use any of my forest land near rivers and streams. This protects water quality and gives wildlife a place to live. The cost of holding that land (with no profit) is around $70,000. How much did you contribute to environmental causes last year? More? I also own a hybid, which I rarely use because I ride a bike to work. You guys just couldn’t keep up.

And I believe “saying” is one of yours posing. He doesn’t share my views, in any case. I like Stephen (and I really don’t even have anything against you).

Posted by: Jack at April 19, 2006 11:41 PM
Comment #141878

Beak,

The issue I was addressing is directly related to the policies of the Hamilton Project, around which the basis of this post is centered. Obviously you care not to read the link posted by Jack, nor address the topic at hand. However, since it is obviously difficult for you identify the main idea, let me help you out:

“Therefore, the solution lies not in running more teachers through the cycle and weeding out the less-qualified ones; rather it is finding innovative ways to attract more capable candidates to the job from which to choose the best and the brightest. “

There. That is my point. It was made in response to the Hamilton Project’s policy brief on improving teacher quality. It does not present the argument that teachers are better or worse these days; it does present my idea for how to make the Hamilton Project’s policy viable. If you actually read my post from yesterday, you would see that there indeed is a link to a specific example of what I am talking about. It’s pretty easy to find, as it says “here is an example of what I’m talking about:”. Now, I could be mistaken, but isn’t that called a “reference”?

Your attack on educators, the education system, and pedagogy itself was so uninformed and malicious that I felt inclined to defend it, even though your post was only vaguely related to my point if at all. If you wish to know more about the current teacher shortage, what it takes to get a teaching certificate, or the changing role of teachers, these facts are all readily available for you. It is not my responsibility to provide refrences to contentions which were beside my origional point. You made the attack. You should be the one to come with the facts.

Otherwise, please DO read my origional post and the Hamilton Project’s policy brief. Then maybe you will be aware enough of what we are talking about to form a relevant opinion. You could also try using something besides disrespect as the basis of your arguments.

Posted by: Beijing Rob at April 20, 2006 4:26 AM
Comment #142009
Democrats will look back to yesterday as being thier worst nightmare.You dummies had Carl rove were you wanted him a great big target for the liberal media in the white house.Now this political genious will spend all of his time defeating you in November. This shows the weekness of your party.you cant see the tree’s for the forest!Your party is a joke and i would like to be the first to say good riddens to the democrats as a serious party.

Posted by: saying at April 20, 2006 11:18 AM


Yet another articulate Gem Of Wisdom from one of WatchBlog’s many Typical American Conservatives.

How proud you must be!

Posted by: Betty Burke at April 20, 2006 6:27 PM
Comment #142016

Betty,

You really did a poor job disguising yourself that time. I had expected better from you. The jig is up, okay? Everyone knows that YOU have been the one posting these fake conservatives all along. Saying, TheConservative, AngryWhiteMan, that little trick has run its course, mkay? Time to move on.

Posted by: Duano at April 20, 2006 7:18 PM
Comment #142064

Jack,
Another fine post. I agree with a general point of yours that the Dems should be espousing more mainstream ideas such as those put forth by Rubin. Alas, they barely put forth an agenda at all these days save reactionary Bush bashing. Centrism is the only real hope Dems have of posing a sustained alternative to the Reps. Although I certainly tend toward the right (as you do), I welcome ideological competition and have recoiled from much of Reps actions of the last few years (especially spending).

Traveller: The notion that Brookings or the Council on Foreign Relations espouse one world government is downright ludicrous…the stuff of black helicopters, Area 51 and other quaint conspiracy theories. Brookings focuses as much on domestic policy as foreign policy and the Council does not have “an” agenda. Rather, it is comprised of a broad array of people who have distinguished themselves in a variety of international pursuits and represent an equal variety of viewpoints.

Posted by: boojum at April 21, 2006 1:26 AM
Comment #142104

Jack,

Thanks for helping provide some ammunition against the types of standardized testing that President Bush (and other clueless politicians) hold so dear.

I think you’d be pretty hard pressed to find any knowledgeable person who would completely disagree with your statement:

IB [International Baccalaureate] is a great program. Enroll your kids. It is what school should be. If all kids took that we wouldn’t have such ignant folks around.

Some (including me) would disagree with the implication that everything else pales by comparison, but that’s a side point.

And yet, here in New York, our commissioner of education won’t approve the IB curriculum as an alternative to the state tests. Not because of any issues with the curriculum, but because standardization means standardization. Is this an aberration? Not at all - it’s reflective of the real problem in education.

People talk about wanting to hold teachers to a higher standard but then refuse to treat us as professionals by attempting to micromanage how we do our jobs to an extent that we have very little real control over actual outcomes. Rather than empowering us to evaluate and assess our students in authentic ways that reflect what we want them to learn, we give them standardized tests which fail to measure what is truly important and which take away ludicrous amounts of time that could otherwise be spent on actual instruction.

Case in point: The state math test uses a punch-out cardboard protractor. Students MUST use this tool for the test. Without going into specific details, this tool is different enough from a standard protractor that it is essential that I take time to instruct my students on how to use it (keeping in mind that using any type of protractor at all is new to them). Having spent this time (which could have been spent on far more important things) they will probably get the questions correct, which only proves that they have mastered the use of a tool that exists only in the context of this test and which they will never, ever, see again.

Posted by: Camillus at April 21, 2006 10:13 AM
Comment #142107


While I’m at it, I should also thank Beak for his support of paying teachers more and giving them greater respect in society. He wrote:

… if the pay sucks, the hours are long and the emotional stress is so bad, why do so many young people enter the profession? Because they can’t take the math and science courses they need to enter the high paying engineering/technical arena.

Obviously I’d like to see your evidence for this absolute statement (“they can’t take the math…”). But to whatever extent there may be some truth in this then you have to acknowledge the corollary: that the people who can excel in those courses don’t become teachers because “the pay sucks, the hours are long and the emotional stress is so bad.”

If your child was graduating at the top of his/her class and getting offers for full scholarships to go to top schools in the country and study how would you react if he/she said “I want to be an elementary school teacher?” Chances are you’d say he/she was crazy. Most people would. But is it not insane that we live in a society that discourages our best and brightest from becoming teachers and actively promotes the idea that teaching is a job for people who can’t do anything else?

It has been said over and over that throwing money at the problem is not the answer. And I’ll agree that if you gave every teacher in this country a 20% raise all you’d have is the same teachers making 20% more.

But when we make decisions about how teachers are paid and how they are to be treated and considered we need to remember that we are not impacting the present or even the short term future - the effects are long term.

If you turned around and fired the lowest performing 25% of the teachers you’d see no rise in teacher quality because to replace them you’d have to hire those people who didn’t get jobs in the first place (in may cases for a good reason). As things stand right now you have an awful lot of people who go into the teaching profession because they think it is easy or that its a good job for people who can’t do anything else. Fortunately, there are enough people who know what teaching is really about, are willing to forgo the opportunity to become wealthy (as opposed to comfortable after putting in many years of service), and who don’t care about society’s low esteem so that the “wrong type of candidates” can be weeded out.

We can argue about what percent of this type of person gets through anyway (to read some comments above one would conclude 90%, I’d wager more like 2%). But with the constant attacks on teachers I’d predict that this type (people who become teachers because they think they can’t do anything else) will make up a much greater percentage of candidates. And as has been pointed out, in certain subject areas districts are already pretty much forced to take anybody who has a certificate and can breathe.

We need to change the mindset of people who are planning their career paths so that teaching can be considered a smart choice for all talented, intelligent people - not just talented, intelligent people who are willing to make great sacrifices for the privilege of becoming teachers.

If we could change the public perception of teachers (and higher pay is part of this - people believe that things that cost more are worth more) it would take at least 10 years before we’d really see a difference. This is anecdotal, but I bet research would bear it out. In the elementary grades, the students who are most likely to say they want to be teachers are the most industrious and most academically strong. By the time they graduate, though, those students have very different ideas about what they want to do. We need to change this.

Would you like to help rather than exacerbate the problem? Stop teacher bashing. Stick to the facts rather than condemning an entire profession. If you want to join the chorus of people who claim that most teachers are inept and that strong unions and outdated tenure laws are all that’s keeping them employed, do your homework first - how many teachers REALLY fit this criteria?

Please remember - you get what you ask for. Every time a child hears that teachers are lazy, overpaid, and inept, it reinforces an opinion that not only undermines his/her education at the time (after all, why listen to such a person), but also makes it less likely that he/sh will become a teacher if he/she has other options.

Posted by: Camillus at April 21, 2006 10:47 AM
Comment #142130

Hey, Duano: am I making up your sick and twisted Conservative posts here as well?


Just wondering.


Because if I am, I really should stop: these things go against everything I believe - they really turn my stomach. I must be postting them in my sleep; I wonder if I have a prescription for Ambien that I don’t even know about!?

:o(

Oh - wait a minute - that’s right! Why, you can find this very same sort of post on just about every Conservative `blog on the `net!!!

Which means, I suppose, that I must be posting ALL of them!

Geez, somebody should stop me; I’d hate to be thought of as being that Ignorant, that Vile - as my many Ambien-induced-subconscious-conspiratorial-schizophrenic Phony Conservative Posts make me seem!

:o/


Oh yeah, and: weneverlandedonthemoonBillClinton
hadpeoplekilledbutnotasmanyasHillarykilledpersonally
9/11wasaliberalplotthecommiesputthefluorideintoour
preciousbodilyfluidstheUNfliessecretBlackHelicopters
tospraymindcontrolgasoverAmericathereareweapons
ofmassdestructioninIraqandDickCheneyisnotSatan.

Sure.

Posted by: Betty Burke at April 21, 2006 1:21 PM
Comment #142145

Hey - look at what I just found in the Blue Column, from a few days ago:

I say what I think in as common and in the least amount of words as I can. so please keep up your love and support for all things anti American and for Mahmoud today is army day in Iran all those rockets and goose stepping carpet kissers with there AK-47’s has got to make your dick hard.Keep up the good work Jack you say most of the things I would like to say but dont know how to go about it but I am learning.The real reason the left was thrown out power and will remain out of power is the fact that they were betting on the hope that the little guys like me were not paying attention I dont forgive and I dont forget.AS I am shore the rest of the warmongering rednicks from red states will reminde you again in 2008.

Posted by: angry white man at April 18, 2006 10:08 AM

This guy’s been posting here for quite a while. (Did I make him up too, Duano?) Jack, you must be so proud!

Something just occurred to me: did I make You up Duano?!?!? Wow! I really have an active imagination!

Posted by: Betty Burke at April 21, 2006 2:31 PM
Comment #142163

No, Betty, you couldn’t have made me up because my ideas are from an intellect far superior to yours. And BTW, I’m POSTING this, not “postting” it, Mrs. English Professor.

Posted by: Duano at April 21, 2006 3:36 PM
Comment #142173

Why don’t you two get a room.

Posted by: Rocky at April 21, 2006 4:28 PM
Comment #142175

Duano,

Not to take sides, but Betty’s corrections tend to be of grammatical errors which reveal a lack of education, intelligence, or concern for conventions. The error you pointed out was clearly a typo - such as your writing “mkay” in your earlier post in place of “okay” I guess.

Remember - attack the message not the messenger. So I would never say, for example, Duano is an ingnorant, hateful, racist. But I might point out that his messages are full of ignorance, hatred, and racism.

Hope that clears things up.

Posted by: mkay at April 21, 2006 4:42 PM
Comment #142185

mkay,

The “mkay” I posted was intentional. Ever see Mr. Mackee on South Park? Bye bye now, mkay?

Posted by: Duano at April 21, 2006 5:32 PM
Comment #142192

Oh.

Well, in keeping with the theme of my last post I won’t say I’m out of the loop, but my post was message was just pop-culturally illiterate.

Posted by: MyBad at April 21, 2006 5:46 PM
Comment #142193

So nobody jumps on me (since I’ve set myself up now) That should have said:

Oh.

Well, in keeping with the theme of my last post I won’t say I’m out of the loop, but my message was just pop-culturally illiterate.

Posted by: MyBad at April 21, 2006 5:48 PM
Comment #142314

Camillus, thank you. Perfectly stated.

Betty, Duano - you both do a disservice to yourselves by even responding to each other. You should be above that.

Posted by: beijing Rob at April 22, 2006 8:53 AM
Comment #142315
I would never say, for example, Duano is an ingnorant, hateful, racist. But I might point out that his messages are full of ignorance, hatred, and racism.

Hope that clears things up.

Posted by: mkay at April 21, 2006 04:42 PM

:oD

Ah! A fellow Mouse! Excellent. Let us continue to nibble away at their Structure from within the walls of their cities…

One day, we might just bite into something Crucial, and bring all their plans to nought. Mayhem! Bedlam! The Inmates running the Asylum!

(An extremely amusing post, withal. My thanks.)


Rocky: Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!

:op

Puhleeeze - he’s not my type: I only date Cro-Magnons and above!

Posted by: Betty Burke at April 22, 2006 9:05 AM
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