Road to Citizenship

It is understood that the majority of illegal immigrants residing in our Nation are law abiding people trying to make a better life for themselves and their families.
What about the rest?
How is our Government going to prevent the criminals from becoming new citizens?
It’s bad enough that many ‘bad apples’ hanging out on our streets are here illegally. We don’t need to make them citizens.
No Amnesty!

Has everybody heard of the gang - MS-13?

The following is from 'National Geographic' :

'In a very short period of time, Mara Salvatrucha, or MS-13, has arguably become the biggest and most dangerous gang in the world. In the 1980's a law was enacted that would deport non-U.S. citizens convicted of serious crimes back to their home countries after serving their sentences. This resulted in hundreds of thousands of criminal offenders, including thousands of gang members, being returned to countries that had never encountered gang problems – such has been the case with El Salvador. Rather than return to the U.S., many gang members stayed in their home countries and brought gangbanging culture with them.

Law enforcement officials (who’ve served as journalistic sources for me in the past) have kept me up to date on the issues keeping them the busiest. Over the last couple of years, several of my gang detective colleagues urged me to take a deeper look into MS-13 because members were starting to show up in many different parts of the U.S. and other countries. They were also beginning to perpetrate heinous acts of violence in areas that had never experienced such things before. The gang started to grow so fast that a federal task force was created to deal specifically with MS – a big deal considering that it started as a small L.A. street gang.'

---
It seems the U.S. played a major role in creating MS-13.
We deported criminals back to their home countries where they banded together, came back, and are taking over our streets.
Why did this happen?
BECAUSE we didn't protect our border!
An amnesty was given 20 years ago BUT there was nothing significant done to control access to our Nation.
These two issues need to be separated.
Control the borders THEN deal with those who are already here.

Many cities will not let their police ask anyone if they are here legally.
Why? They say it will make everyone afraid of the police and they will stop informing on the bad guys/gals.
How many don't inform the police because they are MORE afraid of the criminal?

If someone on the 'Road to Citizenship' could be assured that when they inform on someone... that 'someone' will be picked up straight away - will they turn them in?
The majority of illegals, who are law abiding and want to be safe in their new country(other than being here illegally), can easily understand that the bad people have got to go.
They will turn them in if they know they will be safe.

We can send the criminals back to their home countries and be reasonably sure they can't come back - IF WE CONTROL the borders FIRST.

Check for tattoos. MS-13 requires their members to be tattooed. The tattoos show what the status is of a member. Police know if someone is a 'new recruit' or a 'seasoned member' of the gang.

Here's a good example of why we need to help the majority get on a path to citizenship:

'Alex Sanchez is a former member of the infamous MS-13 (Mara Salvatrucha) gang, and is now the program director of Homies Unidos, a nonprofit gang violence prevention and intervention organization with projects in San Salvador, El Salvador and Los Angeles, Calif. The organization was founded in 1996 in San Salvador and formally began organizing in the United States in 1997.

An immigrant from El Salvador who faced constant discrimination, Sanchez says he joined the largely El Salvadoran MS-13 in the eighth grade because it gave him a sense of pride at school and in the Los Angeles streets. He says MS-13 also provided an outlet for his anger, fueled in part by an abusive situation in his home.

After serving time in prison for carjacking and weapons violations, Sanchez was deported in 1994 to El Salvador. Just before his deportation, he learned he was about to become a father. While in El Salvador, Sanchez fled rival gangs and government investigations, and reconsidered his gang lifestyle because of his impending fatherhood.

He returned to Los Angeles as an illegal immigrant and soon met Magdaleno Rose-Avila, the founder of Homies Unidos. Sanchez joined the organization as a volunteer and later became the program director.

Sanchez was nearly deported again in 2000, a situation he believes was the result of his work through Homies Unidos to connect people complaining of police brutality with lawyers. Intervention by civic leaders led to the dismissal of the old illegal immigration charges, and Sanchez remains in the United States working to prevent gang violence.'

---
If one is a lower level member of the gang, they should get a black mark, but not necessarily be denied a chance at citizenship. It should be harder, but not impossible, to earn legal status.
Considering there are a number of reasons why people join gangs, this should encourage those who are not really diehard members to turn in the worst of the worst.

Our Politicians need to be smart about this.
Sometimes it's hard to believe they live here too.

BTW - We should not have Law Firms helping people get around felonies to become citizens either.


Posted by Dawn at April 11, 2006 11:00 AM
Comments
Comment #139842

Dawn,
I agree that there are good people and bad people that are coming here…legally or illegally. Yes, it would be nice to keep the good people and ship the bad people home.

I started out an argument about this illegal immigration subject mostly as a joke. I said that I agreed with Dennis Miller…that we should buy Mexico. I’m sure he suggested it in his comedy act as a joke.

But now I’m not so sure it’s a joke.

One conservative, Glenn Renolds, has partially jumped on board the “Buy Mexico” Love Train.

Annex Mexico

The more I think about it…all the pluses and minuses…the better I like the idea.

We bought Alaska.

We bought Louisiana.

Why not Mexico?

Posted by: Jim T at April 11, 2006 11:30 AM
Comment #139845

Jim T,

If we purchase Mexico - we would then be in charge of securing their southern border.. they do a MUCH BETTER job of it than we do.

I see more minuses than pluses at this point.

I would like to see Foxes’ response if we made an offer.

Posted by: dawn at April 11, 2006 11:39 AM
Comment #139846

Dawn,

How do we secure the thousands of miles of our borders?
Oh, and who’s going to pay for it?

America has blown hundreds of billions of dollars on the war on terror, and we are trillions of dollars in debt.
A border fence isn’t going to happen, and we can’t just line up security guards shoulder to shoulder along our borders.
If there was the money, you would think that Homeland Security would have been the priority.

Maybe we should just privatize the Border Patrol.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 11:49 AM
Comment #139847
If we purchase Mexico - we would then be in charge of securing their southern border.. they do a MUCH BETTER job of it than we do.

Erm, they will still be there, we aren’t kicking out all of the Mexicans if we choose to purchase Mexico…

The real problem is that the purchase would really put us in a damper economically at a time when we are already severely in the red.

Posted by: Rhinehold at April 11, 2006 11:54 AM
Comment #139849

Go figure:

I live in the fastest growing Hispanic (legal/illegal/migrant) population area in the country - 187% growth. I also live in one of the top 10 safest/most desirable cities in the US - Cary, NC.

Maybe crime is the by-product of individual areas and how they treat their “at risk” populations… rather than a person’s country of origin…

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 11:56 AM
Comment #139851

Rhinehold,

“The real problem is that the purchase would really put us in a damper economically at a time when we are already severely in the red.”

And the Republicans are trying to rid us of social programs.
We can’t think that purchasing Mexico would solve that problem either.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 11:58 AM
Comment #139852

Is it for sale?

Posted by: Jack at April 11, 2006 12:00 PM
Comment #139855

Dawn,

The plusses I see immediately are:

Huge work force (not cheap labor) that would help us produce more goods and services. Perhaps an influx of workers would allow us to expand, and , who knows, start making the trade imbalance more balanced. Don’t forget what the workforce in China (who DOES have a large force of cheap labor) is doing to us now.

They will be contributing to the Social Security pool…insuring that Social Security will still be there when you and I retire. With the current “donation” the population is making, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, etc., will be a thing of the past without a larger “contribution” from the workforce.

And that “fence” or “wall” that so many people want to build (with WHAT money???). How many miles of border do we have right now? Thousands? If you look at the map of Mexico, there’s very few miles of border with Guatemala…and Belize…well, from what I hear, that’s a great place to retire.

Mexico has a great abundance of oil and natural gas. Not to mention precious metals (gold, silver, etc.).

Mexico has outstanding tourist traps (Cozumel, Playa Del Carmen, Cancun, Puerta Villarta, just to mention a few).

Jeez, the more I think about it, the better I like the idea.

No Joke…I think we should just buy Mexico and get it over and done with.

Posted by: Jim T at April 11, 2006 12:06 PM
Comment #139857

Jack,

For the right amount of money…ANYTHING’S for sale.

Rhinehold,

How can we NOT afford to buy it? Hell, we don’t even have to send troops in to take it. BONUS!

Posted by: Jim T at April 11, 2006 12:08 PM
Comment #139858

Tony,

” live in the fastest growing Hispanic (legal/illegal/migrant) population area in the country - 187% growth. I also live in one of the top 10 safest/most desirable cities in the US - Cary, NC.”

I live in Phoenix, where virtually all convenience store, fast food resturant, and labor intensive construction, in other words any low paying job is now in the hands of a latino.
Arizona is a right to work state. The union presence here is nil.
We have been invaded!
Belive it or not I really don’t have a problem as long as everybody lives by the laws and respects each other.
I do wish though, that the protesters wouldn’t wave Mexican flags. I do find that a bit insulting.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 12:12 PM
Comment #139860

‘How do we secure the thousands of miles of our borders?’

Well… I suggest we start with the areas that are the most accessible.

Paying for it…

You did not mention the vast amount of money spent on the airline industry that was pretty much wasted.

Not denying the money spent on Iraq -
What about all the money that is simply wasted by our government(both sides)?
‘Your waste is someone elses’ paydirt.’

I’m not against raising taxes on the wealthiest in our society. From what I’ve heard, alot of them don’t mind either.
Their gardners and maids can become legal citizens AND we can control the border.


Tony,
‘Maybe crime is the by-product of individual areas and how they treat their “at risk” populations… rather than a person’s country of origin…’

That is why I added the second part of my article.


Posted by: dawn at April 11, 2006 12:14 PM
Comment #139861

We went from the serious to the silly to the surreal in the space of just nine posts.

You guys are good!

Posted by: ulysses at April 11, 2006 12:15 PM
Comment #139866

Dawn,

“You did not mention the vast amount of money spent on the airline industry that was pretty much wasted.

Not denying the money spent on Iraq -
What about all the money that is simply wasted by our government(both sides)?
‘Your waste is someone elses’ paydirt.’”

What you don’t mention is that money is gone, spent, pissed away.
There are greater needs than a fence along our border.
Those that want to come to the U.S. already traverse a desert in Arizona, for instance that claims untold numbers of lives every year.
Putting up a fence in the most accessible areas is pissing in the wind. These people don’t care if they risk their lives to get here. They spend their life savings, a fence over a space of a few “accessible” miles isn’t going to deter those that have already faced hardship just to get to the fence.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 12:23 PM
Comment #139868

Do we get a discount if we buy Canada too?

I’m only half joking. I had a poll up on my website and a majority of the respondents said a North American Union, similar to the EU, is something they’d be interested in.

How is our Government going to prevent the criminals from becoming new citizens?

I’m pretty sure that being in jail is a really big clue. :)

Posted by: American Pundit at April 11, 2006 12:25 PM
Comment #139874

Pundit,

Usually I disagree with you…but the idea of a North American Union isn’t that bad of an idea.

But keep Canada. Too much snow and cold weather. And they drink beer that’s named after a dead animal hanging on the wall. :-)

I’m still on the “Let’s Buy Mexico” side of the fence.


ulysses,

We went from the serious to the silly to the surreal in the space of just nine posts.

Silly and surreal? Or would that be realistic and pragmatic?

I’m SERIOUS!!!

Let’s buy Mexico!

Or go half-way and follow the musings of Glenn Renolds…and annex Mexico.

Pundit may have a decent idea as well…

Posted by: Jim T at April 11, 2006 12:47 PM
Comment #139888

What if they don’t want to sell. Do we try a hostile takeover? (Speaking in business tersm, of course.)

We could offer them statehood. Fox could stay on as governor. Of course, we tried that with Puerto Rico. Didn’t work.

Wait a minute. If we could get enough Americans to move to Mexico, THEN hold elections, it might work.

Or maybe invite them to become a territory of the United States, like all those little islands in the South Pacific. They could retain their Mexican citizenship, but enjoy all the benefits of an American citizen.

There has to be a way and we should be pressuring the two governments to work it out.

Jim T

I like that North American Union idea. It’s worked well in Europe. Maybe we could get France to set it up for us. (They do have an interest in Canada, after all.)

Posted by: ulysses at April 11, 2006 1:29 PM
Comment #139891

Rocky,
‘Those that want to come to the U.S. already traverse a desert in Arizona, for instance that claims untold numbers of lives every year.’

How to solve that… Set up 24/7 offices at every LEGAL crossing and have people go through checks to see who they are and SIGN IN.
When they sign in they either sign UP to work and travel back and forth OR they sign UP to get on the path to citizenship.
This way they have a pass to use to cross and we know who they are.
Not everyone who crosses the border comes here to become a citizen.
Those who are coming across to do harm will be the ones ‘dying in the desert’.

I said CONTROL the border not CLOSE the border.

Posted by: dawn at April 11, 2006 1:42 PM
Comment #139892

“I live in Phoenix, where virtually all convenience store, fast food resturant, and labor intensive construction, in other words any low paying job is now in the hands of a latino.
Arizona is a right to work state. The union presence here is nil.
We have been invaded!
Belive it or not I really don’t have a problem as long as everybody lives by the laws and respects each other.
I do wish though, that the protesters wouldn’t wave Mexican flags. I do find that a bit insulting.”

Again, I’d have to guess that it’s the way people are treated in certain areas that would be the root cause of illegal behaviors. As far as people working certains jobs - not sure what to say about that… here, many of the convience store workers are either Middle Eastern or African, but not sure what the point of this observation would be.

North Carolina is a right to work state as well, but I don’t see much impact of low wage jobs, most are hourly employess and would not be in a union - as far as I know, but my knowledge here is minimal… I only hire within unions when I work in Union areas.

As far as being insulted by flying flags… why, that’s what they are for, right?

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 1:48 PM
Comment #139893

tony-

You live in the containment area; that explains a lot! :)

Posted by: George in SC at April 11, 2006 1:54 PM
Comment #139898

I know the “buy Mexico” thing is a joke, but it might be interesting to hear what actual Mexicans (or even their government) think of the idea.
Statehood for certain parts of Mexico may seem silly on the surface, but it’s not unfeasible.

Posted by: TheTraveler at April 11, 2006 2:09 PM
Comment #139901

tony,

“As far as being insulted by flying flags… why, that’s what they are for, right?”

No actually, not if you want to be considered an American citizen. This ain’t Mexico, you want to protest and fly your Mexican flag, do it in Mexico. You want to be an American, fly an American flag.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 2:16 PM
Comment #139903

“No actually, not if you want to be considered an American citizen. This ain’t Mexico, you want to protest and fly your Mexican flag, do it in Mexico. You want to be an American, fly an American flag.”

One of my employees is from Ecuador… and he is quite proud of his heritage. He can fly/wear whatever he wants to. If I ever move to another country - I will always be American, and I will fly that flag. I thinks it’s small minded to require people to sacrafice their past in order to be “American.” We are the apex of immigrant success - no one here can avoid that past. I say we show respect and honor to our past by allowing what has been our success to be the possible future for others.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 2:25 PM
Comment #139904

Just had to comment on the flag flying.

I used to have three flags flying in front of my house: An American flag, Vietnam Veterans MIA flag and the United Nations flag. (Yes, I did fly the American flag higher than the UN flag.)

But I caught so much hell for the U.N. flag (one morning I awoke to find it gone!) that I finally took it down.

This is America. If the American Nazi Party can fly the swastika, what the hell’s wrong with the Mexican flag, or the flag of any other country, for that matter.

Posted by: ulysses at April 11, 2006 2:30 PM
Comment #139905

‘We are the apex of immigrant success - no one here can avoid that past.’

Tony,
I don’t think the arguement has anything to do with being proud of one’s past - if one is in streets of the U.S. fighting for RIGHTS given to U.S. citizens and/or the right to become a citizen WHY on earth would you wave the flag of another country?
That does not show ‘proud of my past’ - It shows ‘I’m Mexican and plan to stay Mexican.’ There is a difference.

Posted by: dawn at April 11, 2006 2:30 PM
Comment #139907

Thank you Dawn, I couldn’t have said it better, though I might add that if you want to protest arogance isn’t a tool that will get you anywhere.

Tony,

Arizona is one of the states that the anexation movement wants to reclaim in the name of Mexico, not to mention that there are quite a few rednecks here that would like to see our Latino friends just go back where they came from.
Needless to say the flag waving is a sore subject here in Arizona.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 2:41 PM
Comment #139909

“That does not show ‘proud of my past’ - It shows ‘I’m Mexican and plan to stay Mexican.’ There is a difference.”

It is an issue you perceive, but one that does not exist with the Hispanic population. They see maintaining their heritage as well as becoming American. Both flags mean an enourmous amount to them, and I would think extremely shortsighted and rude to ask that they give up either. I would call it unAmerican.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 2:50 PM
Comment #139911
I know the “buy Mexico” thing is a joke, but it might be interesting to hear what actual Mexicans (or even their government) think of the idea.

The problem is that the majority of Mexicans (from a recent Zogby poll) see the southwest as clearly Mexican territory and would like to re-annex it. That’s California, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexcio, Arizona and Texas (some include Washington, Oregon and Utah…)

Something is going to have to give soon. I have always thought that the only real answer to the problem was to invite Mexico into the Union, but it would have to be by our rules, not theirs. I’m not sure how they would feel about that myself.

Either way, the situation is not getting resolved and it’s getting to a point where it’s going to end up being one way or the other…

Posted by: Rhinehold at April 11, 2006 2:51 PM
Comment #139912

Tony,

If I was in America illegally and I wanted sympathy for my cause, the last thing that I would want to do would be to rub someones face in it, and that is the percepction here in Arizona.

Have some tact.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 2:54 PM
Comment #139917

Dawn,

That’s a very good article. Thank you.
You raised many important issues.
I’m waiting for someone to now call you a racist.
The illegal alien sympathizers don’t have a lot debating points, so they resort to stuff like:

  • you are a racist;

  • we are all immigrants;

  • you are using color and nationality;

  • the U.S. would collapse without them (a total myth);

  • they are more law abiding (another myth; 29% of our all prisoners are illegal aliens); and, nevermind that just being here, driving without a drivers license and auto insurance is a crime;

I don’t blame illegal aliens for wanting to come here. Heck, who wouldn’t. 32% of illegal aliens are on welfare. And, even though 29% of prisoners are illegal aliens, costing billions per year, they are often released due to prison overcrowding, and they simply return to commit the same crimes. A GAO-5646R Report indicated that a study group of 55,322 illegal aliens had an average arrest record of 13 arrests per illegal alien.

I know many well meaning U.S. citizens feel like allowing illegal aliens to come here is benevolent and compassionate, but it will lead to chaos, societal disorder, resentment, and fuel racism. We will eventually all be losers. In a country such as ours, with welfare, public education, countless public services, laws designed to control disease, require citizens to have auto insurance, register vehicles, pass a driver’s test, etc., the end result will be the failure of all of those systems. It is already happening in border states.

It really has nothing to do with race. But, illegal alien sympathizers are making excuses for the problems stemming from illegal immigration, and insist on making a race issue of it.

And it is very effective too. It scares off many people. So, too many Americans refrain (cowardly), and watch their nation being overrun by crime, disease, and the fast growing burden on healthcare, E.R., hospital, education, law enforcement, insurance, and prison systems.

And crime is rising fast:

  • 95% of 1,200 warrants for homicide in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens. 66% of 17,000 fugitive felony warrants are for illegal aliens.

  • John Mullaly a former NYPD homicide detective, states 70% of the drug dealers and other criminals in Manhattan’s Washington Heights are were illegal aliens.
  • According to statistics by the Salt Lake City Police Department (and verified by an independent study), 80% of all drug crimes in the City are committed by illegal aliens. In Salt Lake County, the equivalent number is 50%. That’s why Congressman Cannon is on the Immigration Subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee. He is working to insure that interior states, like Utah, are not overlooked in the war on illegal immigration.

  • PHOENIX Television and radio stations began running ads in the Valley last week, paid for by the Coalition United to Secure America, attributing the 45% increase in homicides and 41% increase in home invasions to illegal aliens. Phoenix Police Department reports confirm those figures and Sgt. Tony Morales believes there is no doubt that the statistics are tied to illegal aliens. However, news reports about the ads have brought out comments from Rep. Steve Gallardo, District 13, who was quick to claim the ads racist (yep, anyone against illegal immigration is always a racist).

  • 12/31/2002: Six-month figures revealed a 3.3% increase in violent crime in California, including a 16 percent rise in homicides, over the same span in 2001.

  • February 06,2006: The Monitor, According to the Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Assistance, more than a quarter of the approximately 400,000 days spent in the Hidalgo County Jail during the course of the 365-day period belonged to criminal illegal aliens convicted with at least one felony or two misdemeanors. (Days spent in jail during the pre-trial period were counted only if the criminal illegal alien was convicted of the crime.) The Hidalgo County Jail held 3,335 eligible criminal illegal alien inmates for the fiscal year 2005 reporting period, up from 3,136 criminal illegal alien inmates in 2004. These numbers have been confirmed through the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement. But, the Hidalgo County jail only has 1,200 beds. Not only do thousands of criminal illegal aliens crowd the jail, but many make many repeat appearances.
  • Hence, many illegal aliens have been released due to overcrowding.
  • In 2001, 87% of deportable aliens who received run letters disappeared, a number that was even higher-94 percent-if they were from terror-sponsoring countries.

Where is the compassion for the hundreds of people murdered by illegal aliens? One person is murdered by an illegal alien every 86 hours. Wake up, and, at the very least, secure the borders, prosecute those that illegal employ illegal aliens, and deport all criminaal illegal alien prisoners.

Crime is only part of the other numerous serious issues:

  • increased crime rates;

  • burden on education systems;

  • burden on healthcare systems;

  • burden on Centers for Disease Control and Prevention; an average of 2,000 illegal aliens come streaming across our borders daily, and one (1) illegal alien in Santa Barbara, CA. infected 56 other people with tuberculosis as reported on April 24, 2004, by the Santa Barbara Press-News, “Anatomy of an Outbreak”

  • burden on hospital systems;

  • burden on welfare systems; 32% of illegal aliens are on welfare (Jan-2004);

  • burden on Social Security system;

  • burden on Medicaid system;

  • burden on border patrol systems; ever increasing numbers are needed;

  • burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;

  • burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;

  • burden on prison systems; 29% of prisoners in state and federal prisons are illegal aliens (Sep-2004);

  • burden on voting systems; voter fraud with fake ID;

So, the “Americain Dream”, for some, is more than just finding a job.
For some, it is crime and welfare.

At any rate, we can not deport 12 million people. But, we should stop the inflow.

THE SOLUTION:

  • Secure the borders (with resources we already have and only 1% of the total active duty military, guard, and reserves)

  • Require enforcement of all immigration laws. Enforce the existing laws.

  • Require ALL employers to use the Social Security Verification System for ALL hires.

  • Deny ALL illegal alien births automatic citizenship. End anchor-baby blue passports;

  • Deny ALL illegal aliens a FREE K-12 education.

  • Deny ALL illegal aliens ANY and ALL ‘public benefits’.

  • Deny ALL illegal aliens driver’s licenses and in-state college tuition.

  • Deport all incarcerated criminal aliens immediately;

  • Verify ALL voter’s citizenship, before permission to vote.

Unfortunately, our bought-and-paid-for, FOR-SALE government will never pass any reforms until voters stop re-electing irresponsible incumbents.

Americans are foolishly selling themselves out. Or, America sold out a long time ago, and we are merely witnessing the transfer of the assets of that sale now?
When the deal is complete, like most corporate buy outs, Americans will start losing more than just their jobs, and that day seems to be getting closer and closer every day.

If Americans apathetically standby, once again, and do nothing, then they deserve what ever they get.

_________________________________________
Stop Repeat Offenders.
Don’t Re-Elect Them !
_________________________________________

Posted by: d.a.n at April 11, 2006 3:04 PM
Comment #139918

My point is not support something that would fly in the face of people who I need support from… My point is that the perception is wrong. I am involved with the Hispanic culture here, and I can just imagine their confused faces when I explain this to them. They are not rubbing their culture in anyone’s face… and in fact their culture and sense of family is one of the strongest assets they bring - something I think American is in desparate need of.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 3:05 PM
Comment #139919

‘It is an issue you perceive, but one that does not exist with the Hispanic population. They see maintaining their heritage as well as becoming American.’

Not all of them.
Some Americans of Mexican heritage are ashamed of Mexico and the fact that it isn’t doing a better job for it’s people - a BIG reason why they immigrated.
Maybe it’s because those I know don’t live in areas that have a large population of Latinos and it’s much easier to assimilate.

AND like others have said - many are ‘invading’ because they believe parts of the U.S. should be returned to Mexico.

AND ‘perception’ is EXACTLY why they were told to put the Mexican flags away.

Posted by: dawn at April 11, 2006 3:06 PM
Comment #139921

d.a.n. -

Again my point back to you would be that you have stated mostly local stats… a few national, but…

Wake County, NC - fastest growing Hispanic population (187% - legal, illegal, migrant.)

Cary NC (in Wake County) - voted #6 safest cities in the country. Voted in top 10 best places to live, voted #1 best place to retire.

I’m not saying that nothing needs to be done with this issue - but we need to look at the facts and the successes to determine the best course of action.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 3:11 PM
Comment #139922

Tony,

Have you ever dealt with La Raza?

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 3:12 PM
Comment #139923

“AND ‘perception’ is EXACTLY why they were told to put the Mexican flags away”

My own personal opinion - anyone who would suggest that they put their flags away SHOULD have their noses rubbed in it. To me, that suggestion would be showing the absolute worst in American culture. If I took flags as seriously as the ideas they represent, then I would be outside right now, burning the American flag that hangs over my door. This myopic notion is an embarrassment us all.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 3:16 PM
Comment #139924

“Have you ever dealt with La Raza?”

No - I was unaware. Thanks for the suggestion.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 3:17 PM
Comment #139926

Tony wrote:

Again, I’d have to guess that it’s the way people are treated in certain areas that would be the root cause of illegal behaviors.

…And I have to agree with you, I live in Atlanta and went thru the whole process, I speak spanish as much as english, sometimes I have friends and relatives come from abroad to see me.

I took this one of them last weekend to Buckhead (a clubs area in downtown), my friend spoke english as well, he came as a tourist for 15 days, as we walked from the car to the club and when done from the club to the car many whites and blacks called us all kinds of stuff, “hommies”, “wetbacks”…even a guard came to us and asked us you have money to come in or what?, just because we were undecided on which one to enter, many people would look at us funny or started mumbling and then broke in laughs, we were well dressed, we are not bad looking or short, just “brown” and the most funnny thing is I came by plane, lol, but we thought to ourselves those actions believe it or not creates some kind of resentment… and my friend left with a bad impression of the people of Atlanta, that there is still a lot of racism in the south, we did not even turn our heads or responded, they must have thought we did not spoke english, experiences like these turn people hostile.

…going back to the subject, yes, let’s buy Mexico, you should see the girls in Veracruz, I have been there, uff, nice.

Enrique.

Posted by: Enrique at April 11, 2006 3:25 PM
Comment #139927

tony,

“If I took flags as seriously as the ideas they represent, then I would be outside right now, burning the American flag that hangs over my door. This myopic notion is an embarrassment us all.”

That is your right as guaranteed by the Constitution.

At the moment these folks have no rights under our Constitution, they are here illegally, and you don’t get that.
Nobody put a gun to these folks head, they came here voluntarily, with the aim of taking advantage of what America has to offer, the least they could do is show a little respect.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 3:27 PM
Comment #139928

My Mother-in-law still speaks louder if a waiter has a hard time understanding what she wants. I had no idea so many Hispanics were deaf. :)

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 3:29 PM
Comment #139930

“That is your right as guaranteed by the Constitution.

At the moment these folks have no rights under our Constitution, they are here illegally, and you don’t get that.
Nobody put a gun to these folks head, they came here voluntarily, with the aim of taking advantage of what America has to offer, the least they could do is show a little respect.”

Yes - and don’t you love the ideas of freedom contained in the Constitution. I don’t see the Constitution as something to guard - it’s something to share. Sharing and encouraging freedom grows freedom… guarding it tightly only limits freedom. Nothing but good will happen by sharing the ideas within the Constitution with others. If we want these people to be good Americans, we should allow them to act as Americans.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 3:37 PM
Comment #139932

I can’t say nothing but that I share Tony’s ideas, well said man. RV.

Posted by: RV. at April 11, 2006 3:43 PM
Comment #139933

tony,

I mean no disrespect.
All of us here are immigrants, or desendents thereof, and all have been, in one way or another, assimilated into American society.

I personally am kind of a heintz 57 variety of American, so I identify with “American” culture, and if you are in my neighborhood, and you work in a service position please do me the courtesy of speaking English, and I would expect that they would feel the same if I went to their neighborhood, or to Mexico, or to France, or to China.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 3:43 PM
Comment #139936

Rocky -

No disrespect at all. I’m so Scottish my skin is translucent. (A Scottsman in the sun is like a fork in the microwave.) I am sometimes pastey white - other times, I am tomato red.

I have no blood connection to Hispanics (that I know of - but I do have the Heinz 57 background on one side) but I am the second generation born in America on my Mother’s side. I deeply respect the values and ideas that are America, and I can see no reason at all to be selfish with them. That only limits how great our country can be.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 3:48 PM
Comment #139938

tony,

“Yes - and don’t you love the ideas of freedom contained in the Constitution. I don’t see the Constitution as something to guard - it’s something to share. Sharing and encouraging freedom grows freedom… guarding it tightly only limits freedom. Nothing but good will happen by sharing the ideas within the Constitution with others. If we want these people to be good Americans, we should allow them to act as Americans.”

Ok, fine.
Then we must expect them to follow our laws even if it means going through the hassle of coming here legaly.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 3:50 PM
Comment #139939

Tony, if you would accept a little advise, don’t get d.a.n. started, he arises no healthy conversation… injects hate, fear, racism and changes around whatever you say, …and he is never wrong, most stubborn guy on earth, I have nothing against jehova witnesses and I’m sorry if I’m offending anyone but I think the guy used to be one of them, there is nothing but their truth and don’t respect anyone else’s ideas, you’ll see. RV.

Posted by: RV at April 11, 2006 3:51 PM
Comment #139940

tony

They are here because of the greatness, and power and freedom and glorious nature of these United States. Don’t try to change it, become part of it. Help it get better. If one is still so proud of their Hispanic heritage that they just can’t live without it, then go home. The signs in LA that said “Reconquista” and “This is our country, not yours” are a danger sign. That to me means we have been invaded. The businesses that knowingly hire illegal aliens should come under the condemnation of the law.

Now what exists is that the welfare state is using my tax dollars to allow an illegal alien to go to college at a tuition rate that is less than what the taxpayer can get. The food stamps, medical care, education is all paid for with peoples money that they have no right to. They largely pay no taxes.

An additional problem is that with all the bogus documents and identification, there is not way to tell which one is Sanchez or Rodriguez, or Diaz and so on. Amnesty is no answer. The next time around it will not be 12 million it will be 40 million. All illegal aliens should be given a short period of time to return to their native country and apply for entry the legal way. After the short period has past, then give law enforcement at all levels the authority and instruction to arrest and detain for federal authorities for the purpose of deportation.

If any of you thing this is slowly going to go away, then think what will happen when Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador (I think I got all his names) in the new president of Mexico. He is a friend of Hugo the Great from Venezuela.

It is a felony to be an illegal alien in Mexico. Let us reciprocate. In the Mexican constitution are several references that need to be looked at.

Article 33 “Foreigners may not in any way participate in the political affairs of the country”.

Also in Article 33 “the Federal Executive shall have the exclusive power to compel any foreigner whose remaining he may deem inexpedient to abandon the national territory immediately and without the necessity of previous legal action.” Meaning without due process

There are more citations; this is only a sample.

Article 32 “Mexicans shall have priority over foreigners under equality of circumstances for all classes of concessions and for all employment, positions, or commissions of the Government in which the status of citizenship is not indispensable.”

Article 32 also bans foreigners immigrants, and naturalized citizens of Mexico of serving as military officers, airline crews, chiefs of seaports and airports.

Article 55 requires all lawmakers to be “a Mexican by birth”.

Article 130 disallows non-Mexicans to become members of the clergy.

Article 27 says, “Only Mexicans by birth or naturalization and Mexican companies have the right to acquire ownership of lands, waters, and their appurtenances, or to obtain concessions for the exploitation of mines or of waters.”

Article 11 guarantees federal protection against “undesirable aliens resident in the country”.

Article 16 gives Mexican citizens the power of arrest.

One of the organizers of the marches all over the country is La Voz de Aztlan. Their web site has this quote “Our duty is to take back what is ours, even it it means carrying out total genocide.” That does not sound like somebody looking for work. That sounds like a member of an invading force. They encourage their latinos to read “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”.

And they don’t speak English or even try to learn it. See, the pieces of the puzzle are fitting together. They don’t even hide the fact they are here to take over. So, we have Islamic terriorists on one hand and soon to be Socialist terrorist on the other hand.

Do we have a serious situation here, folks.
You bet your sweet bippy we do!!

Posted by: tomh at April 11, 2006 3:55 PM
Comment #139941

“Ok, fine.
Then we must expect them to follow our laws even if it means going through the hassle of coming here legaly.”

Yes - I do agree with this, but here’s the catch.

If I had to prove that my Grandmother was herer legally, I would have no idea where to begin or if it was even possible. Does that make me an illegal?

here’s another over-the-top saying: America is at it’s best when it gives everyone an initial benefit of the doubt.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 3:55 PM
Comment #139943

RV,

I have actually found Dan, posts well thought out and researched if a little too verbose.
He can be stubborn though, I will give you that.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 3:56 PM
Comment #139944

tony,

“If I had to prove that my Grandmother was herer legally, I would have no idea where to begin or if it was even possible. Does that make me an illegal?”

I assume that you have a birth certificate, or a means of knowing which hospital you were born in.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 3:57 PM
Comment #139947
tony wrote: Again my point back to you would be that you have stated mostly local stats… a few national, but…

tony,
I’ve spent years looking at this problem, and I’ve lived in or visited 34 of all the 50 U.S. states, and own land in OK, TX, and NM.

Sorry, tony, but what you are meekly implying is flat wrong. Please see my web-site if you’d like to know more. See the GAO reports (GAO-5646R and GAO-05-377R). They include both federal and state statistics for arrests and convictions. The GAO-5646R report includes California, Texas, and Arizona. Also, if you’d like, I’ll be more than happy to show you crime rate statistics from Utah, Georgia, Florida, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Colorado, Missouri, Alabama, Arkansas, Nevada, New Mexico, Louisianna, and Mississippi.

In fact, here’s a quick summary.
Do you think the higher crime rates in southern states is a mere coincidence? Please look at crime rate statistics for Utah, Georgia, Florida, Texas, Arizona, Nevada, and New Mexico, and South Carolina. Then, try to convince the U.S. citizens of those states that there is no crime due to illegal aliens (not to mention the other numerous problems stemming from illegal immigration).

Also, bear in mind one very important fact.
A crime by and illegal alien is a crime that should have never existed.

And please don’t respond as a few others have:

So you would prefer they were murdered by a US citizen?

I’ll come unhinged if I hear that one more time.

Tony, see my post above? That is not merely anectdotal.

Do you seriously think your single anectdotal statement that Cary, NC (voted #6 safest cities in the country) is anything but anectdotal. Have you visited S.C. lately?
Except for D.C., South Carolina has the highest violent crime rate in the U.S., and it is due in part to illegal aliens. 29% of all fedaral and state prisoners are illegal aliens.

Do you know what is another huge part of the problem in South Carolina? Senator Lindsey Graham is the problem. He said “illegal aliens contribute to the economy and take difficult jobs such as landscaping” and he noted that “as a golfer, I probably benefit from their labor.”

Visit issues2000.org and see all the other senators and representatives that voted:
NO on reporting illegal aliens who receive hospital treatment.
YES on extending Immigrant Residency rules.
YES on more immigrant visas for skilled workers.

How’s do you feel about
Illegal Aliens Working in North Carolina Aviation Jobs?

You might want to do a bit of research first. I have been for years. I don’t hate illegal aliens that come here for work, but that does not mean I condone illegal immigration.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 11, 2006 4:00 PM
Comment #139948

I do have a birth certificate and a NC driver license and a passport…

but if someone were to ask me were my Grandparents here illegally…??? I would hope it would not matter. I would like to afford as much of this past treatment to future generations of new Americans.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 4:01 PM
Comment #139951

In order to become citizens the illegals will have to work towards it over the next ten years. It’s not automatic. In other words, I think the current proposal covers your concerns Dawn.

Posted by: Max at April 11, 2006 4:06 PM
Comment #139952

tony,

“but if someone were to ask me were my Grandparents here illegally…???”

What difference does it make if your grandmother was here legaly?

The fourteenth ammentment states;

“Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”

So where does your grandmother’s legality fit into the picture?

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 4:07 PM
Comment #139954
In order to become citizens the illegals will have to work towards it over the next ten years. It’s not automatic. In other words, I think the current proposal covers your concerns Dawn.

We can not deport 12 million illegal immigrants.
But, what we can do, which will encourage many to leave voluntarily, is:

  • Secure the borders (with resources we already have and only 1% of the total active duty military, guard, and reserves)

  • Require ALL employers to use the Social Security Verification System for ALL hires.

  • Deny ALL illegal alien births automatic citizenship. End anchor-baby blue passports;

  • Deny ALL illegal aliens a FREE K-12 education.

  • Deny ALL illegal aliens ANY and ALL ‘public benefits’.

  • Deny ALL illegal aliens driver’s licenses and in-state college tuition.

  • Deport all incarcerated criminal illegal aliens immediately;

  • Verify ALL voter’s citizenship, before permission to vote.

A biometrics system would help too.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 11, 2006 4:13 PM
Comment #139955

DAN -

You miss my point. I knwo there are issues with illegal immigrants, and I think one of the major issues with crimes rates relating to illegal immigrants is that they are here illegally. I wonder what the crime rates against illegal immigrants if they were not too afraid to report them.

My point above is that some places work and live with this issue very well - other do not. I have a very positive impression because I have had very positive experiences. It seems that you have not - and I would equally weigh your suggestions with mine.

For me, the bottom line is that we are a much better society because of the people here. I would suggest extending a legal status to everyone here, and expediting the removal of those who do not follow the laws quickly. My allowing a hidden illegal society, we prevent ourselves from truly understanding what is really going on. My mention of Cary as proof of the good that comes from these people is as anectdotal as your suggestion that the rise in crime rates is directly related to the rise in illegal population. No one knows because the truth is hidden from us.

There is good and there is bad. Allowing everyone is impossible, but the idea of kicking all illegals out is equally impossible.

To me, the idea that someone could enter our country illegally, find their way to a decent place to live and find work… and send large amounts of the money they make back home… wow, those are the kind of people I want playing on my team.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 4:17 PM
Comment #139957

Rocky,
D.A.N. answered your question. He wants to amend the constitution so that who your parents are determines your US citizenship.

By the way, D.A.N., I’ve been meaning to ask, do you have a source that 32% of illegal immigrants are on welfare other than the opinion piece you always cite (that one doesn’t give their source)? I have a hard time believing it but I’d like to check it out. Thanks

Posted by: Brian Poole at April 11, 2006 4:20 PM
Comment #139958

Rocky -

The point is not about my Grandmother’s or my legal status - it’s about the opportunity and hospitality that was afforded her. It seems extremely disingenuous to take advantage of the opportunity then and then turn around and prevent the same for others now.

People here are speaking of crime and ills on society like it is a hereditary defect with Hispanics. I say it is a defect with the life we force them to live.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 4:23 PM
Comment #139960

You know - we have a very large Asian (Indian, Korean, Chinese) population as well as a large African population here in Cary.

I’ve never even questioned their status… what kind of a liberal am I???

(Personally, it’s kind of a positive way to live. Being suspicious of your neighbors is a bad way to live.)

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 4:34 PM
Comment #139961

tony,

“People here are speaking of crime and ills on society like it is a hereditary defect with Hispanics. I say it is a defect with the life we force them to live.”

I have not spoken at all about crime, and in my experience here in Phoenix other that the crimes that the Latinos continue to perpetrate on themselves, it hasn’t really been an issue.
What does happen here is that the relitively cheap labor drives down the wages of everybody in those fields.
In that sense I am lucky to be in a field that requires technical skills, and as such my wages have remained unaffected.
My next door neighbor and his wife are collage educated Mexicans, they are no different than anyone else on our block, and have in fact done a great job upgrading the house they live in. We live in a neighborhood that was an established white middle class area built in 1951, and just a few years ago, when the original owners either retired and moved out or died is when the area started to change.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 4:38 PM
Comment #139962

tony,

tony wrote: DAN
You miss my point. I knwo there are issues with illegal immigrants, and I think one of the major issues with crimes rates relating to illegal immigrants is that they are here illegally. I wonder what the crime rates against illegal immigrants if they were not too afraid to report them.

Oh. OK. maybe crime against illegal aliens that illegal aliens don’t report is unfortunate, but it is their own fault. Besides, you’d be surprised. Illegal aliens in Dallas and Fort Worth do call the police. Like Los Angeles, they no longer fear the police. The police can no longer keep up with it. That is why they issued Special Order 40 in Los Angeles. The police are now afraid of the illegal immigrants, and have given up trying to determine their immigration status. Same here in Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona, and many other states.

Tony, have you really researched the crime issue very well? People should see these tragedies before trying to make further excuses for illegal aliens. Crime rates are increasing in many states. The reason is obvious. I live a few minutes north of Dallas, Texas. There are over 1 million illegal aliens in just the north east quadrant of Texas.

GAO report (GAO-5646R) lists arrests for a study population of 55,322 illegal aliens in Texas, California, and Arizona.
The following federal and state arrests are for more than mere illegal immigration violations:
Arrest Offenses: 45% of illegal alien offenses were for
drugs and immigration:
Criminal offense: Drugs; Number: 166,722; 24%
Criminal offense: Immigration; Number: 144,166; 21%
Criminal offense: Traffic violations; Number: 55,060; 8%
Criminal offense: Assault; Number: 50,958; 7%
Criminal offense: Obstruction of justice; Number: 45,632; 7%
Criminal offense: Burglary; Number: 38,689; 6%
Criminal offense: Larceny/theft; Number: 31,883; 5%
Criminal offense: Fraud, forgery, and counterfeiting; Number: 25,773; 4%
Criminal offense: Weapons violations; Number: 22,263; 3%
Criminal offense: Motor vehicle theft; Number: 20,950; 3%
Criminal offense: Robbery; Number: 15,305; 2%
Criminal offense: Stolen property; Number: 13,415; 2%
Criminal offense: Sex offense; Number: 11,833; 2%
Criminal offense: Disorderly conduct; Number: 8,768; 1%
Criminal offense: Property damage; Number: 6,478; 1%
Criminal offense: Homicide; Number: 5,992; 1%
Criminal offense: Kidnapping; Number: 3,236; under 1%
Criminal offense: Arson; Number: 457; under 1%
Criminal offense: Other; Number: 24,310; 4%
Total offenses: Number: 691,890;
Total offenses in federal prisons: Number: 267,709;
Total offenses in state prisons and local jails: Number: 424,181;

For illegal aliens in federal prisons, almost 90% of study population of 55,322 were convicted for immigration or drug offenses. 21% are drug offenses. Many of the immigration offenses are repeat offenses. Some illegal aliens have been deported dozens of times.
Offense: Immigration: Number: 12,694; 68%
Offense: Drugs: Number: 3,978; 21%
Offense: Unknown: Number: 1,183; 6%
Offense: Weapons, explosives, arson: 251; 1%
Offense: Fraud, bribery, extortion: Number: 185; 1%
Offense: Burglary, larceny, property crimes: Number: 95; 1%
Offense: Assault: Number: 41; under 1%
Offense: Robbery: Number: 28; under 1%
Offense: Kidnapping: Number: 26; under 1%
Offense: Court, corrections: Number: 25; under under 1%
Offense: Homicide: Number: 13; Percent: under 1%
Offense: Other: Number: 62; under under 1%

[] On 13-Nov-2005, Brian Jackson, a Dallas policeman was shot and killed by an illegal alien, Juan Lizcano. Lizcano had become drunk and went to the home of his ex-girfriend to threaten her. As the police pursued Lizcano after he fled the woman’s home, he shot Officer Jackson, who died later in the hospital. Officer Jackson was remembered by his fellow police as someone who loved his job and always went the extra mile.
[] Then, there is Jorge Hernandez, aka Jorge Soto, who killed Min Soon Chang, an 18-year-old college freshman, in a terrible head-on wreck while Hernandez was driving drunk. He had been arrested 3 previous times for drunk driving in 3 other states, and he had been deported to Mexico 17 times! Don’t you wonder why illegal aliens aren’t deported instantly after being arrested for drunk driving?
[] Debbie Thomas, who was the mother of three, was killed in a head-on collision on Christmas Eve 2003 when her car was struck by a car being driven in the wrong direction by illegal alien, Narciso Garcia-Jimenez. He later escaped from his hospital bed and is still at large. The car he drove had no inspection sticker and was registered to another person. When Debbie’s mom learned that her daughter’s killer survived and escaped after being treated at the hospital, she said she felt “angry, bitter and sad, all at once.”
[] In Atlanta, Georgia: Mexican Miguel Carrasco raped a female victim in front of her four year old child and two minors; California Mexican Zacarias Camacho committed lewd acts upon a child under 14; El Salvadoran Oswaldo Martinez raped, sodomized and murdered a 16 year old; MS-13 gang member Reinaldo Ramos convicted of 2nd degree sexual offense for brutal gang rape of 16 year old girl.
[] Jose Ramirez is every American father’s nightmare. The illegal alien beat up a 15-year-old girl after whistling at her. He broke her nose, fractured a bone in her face and produced cuts requring 30 stitches. The man worked in construction in Spotsylvania, Virginia, where the attack occurred, and resisted arrest to the point where police had to taser him.
[] Jose Raul Pena, earlier deported for cocaine possession, used his little daughter as a human shield in an hours-long Los Angeles shootout with police on July 10. Pena and Suzie were both killed. During the incident, Pena used a 9-millimeter Beretta pistol which had been stolen last year in a burglary in Oregon. His office at the car dealership contained a bag of cocaine and a half-drunk bottle of Tequila — consistent with the illegal Pena’s previous deportation for cocaine possession. Videotape captured images of Pena shooting at the police while holding his daughter, yet his relatives are questioning not only whether he used his daughter as a shield, but whether he was even armed at all, according to the Los Angeles Times.
[] Esmerelda Nava, age 4, was recently strangled, molested and killed by an illegal alien who had been deported in 2003. The accused killer is Cornelio Rivera Zamites, who had been residing in Gainsville, Georgia. Esmerelda went with her parents to visit the 24-year-old Zamites. At some point late Saturday night, the child’s mother realized the girl was missing. A police officer found her body early the next morning in nearby woods. An article of Zamites clothing was close by and he was gone. Zamites had been deported for driving under the influence, as well as having no license or insurance. At least his illegal status was duly noted.
[] The nation’s highways have become far more dangerous since they have been turned into smuggling thruways for criminals. Nineteen-year-old Travis Smith of Mesa, Arizona, was killed in 2002 by a carload of illegal aliens being smuggled to Pennsylvania. The accident occurred near Monticello in southeastern Utah, as the car driven by illegal alien smuggler Isidro Aranda-Flores plowed head-on into Smith’s 1966 Mustang. The smuggler apparently fell asleep at the wheel.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 11, 2006 4:47 PM
Comment #139963

DAN -
Can you point to proof that the rise in crime is directly related to the rise in the illegal population? Can you also explain how allowing illegals to gain legal status would negatively impact the US?

Just curious…

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 4:53 PM
Comment #139965

Tony
Nobody is forcing illegal aliens to live in any forced condition. They live the way they want to. They broke the law to get here and need to pay the penalty for breaking the law. It is really simple.

Rocky
Support me if you can. Many times on the evening news in Phoenix when there drive by shootings and homicides, are there not also an a report from the news agency that refers to many of them as “undocumented nationals”? The point I am making is that there is far too much crime from illegal aliens for the numbers they represent here. Also, nearer the border there is so much crime done by the illegal aliens that it is not news. They trespass onto peoples proberty and steal and have even killed their livestock and poultry. Rocky, do you know anybody near the border that can substantiate what I have said.

Posted by: tomh at April 11, 2006 4:57 PM
Comment #139966

[] Rosa came to the United States because, after the death of her husband, she could not afford to take care of her four children. Leaving them with her mother, she worked two jobs and slept in a small room with another immigrant so that she could send back money to feed her children. While in America, she became pregnant. Rather than sponge off the welfare system, use the baby as an anchor, abort, mistreat, or abandon her, she sought out an adoption agency, at risk of being deported, and gave the baby up for adoption. By doing so, she risked being ostracized by her family and friends. I can’t think of anyone more responsible or devoted to family that I know. For every horrific crime you post, I bet there are 100-1000 immigrants who are working hard, trying to support their families.

d.a.n.,
The real problem I have with your posts is that they try to stir people up against hispanic immigrants. I think that illegal immigration is a problem. I think the border needs to be secure. But I don’t want my daughter to have to prove shes a citizen every day of her life because she is hispanic. I don’t want people blaming her birth mother for crime and violence, and lumping her into the same category as drug dealers because of where she came from. Talk about problems, fine, talk about costs, fine, but don’t post these inflammatory individual accounts and try to claim that they are representative of illegal immigrants as a whole, because they are not.

Posted by: Brian Poole at April 11, 2006 5:04 PM
Comment #139968

Max,

It is eleven years not ten, they mentioned that to grant green card they have to have a working permit for two periods of three years each (six years total)

…in which they have to maintain a job, get up to date with taxes and after that they need to wait five more years to be citizens.

…and INS investigates well before anyone getting citizenship and it is reversible in case the grounds for citizenship were others than the ones appointed by the solicitor.

I just read about a lady that applied to be a citizen and investigators found she was wanted in Mexico over the investigation of a murder, they caught her and deported her, she lost the green card as well, right on time you would say…

…but I’ve learned about people that has hidden information like that and even after been granted citizenship it gets revoked, nothing under the sun is secret says the bible so if they are criminals and try to get citizenship, we will know and they will be caught…in time. RV.

Posted by: RV. at April 11, 2006 5:07 PM
Comment #139970

“Nobody is forcing illegal aliens to live in any forced condition. They live the way they want to. They broke the law to get here and need to pay the penalty for breaking the law. It is really simple.”

They live the way they want to…??? Are you sure about that? Kind of like homeless people prefer not to have a mortgage hanging over their heads…?

And why do they need to pay a penalty? Does it serve some greater good? Other than the status of being illegal, what direct damage has their being here done? Or is this more like hazing to join a Fraternity?

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 5:12 PM
Comment #139972

If we are serious about stopping the flood of illegal immigrants from our pourous southern border, we will not build a wall which will become nothing more than a modern-day Magenot Line. Instead, a two-step process would have to be implemented. First, change the law so that illegal aliens’ children will not qualify to be US citizens. Also, the law must be changed that will make employing these illegal aliens a treasonous charge, punishable with mandatory jail time and confiscation of any wealth gained by the illegal employment in addition to a stiff punative fine which is in proportion to one’s wealth (i.e. 40% of total wealth will have the same effect on a multimillionare as someone making 50K), no exemptions and no exceptions. Second, the US government will exercise eminent domain and buy all land it does not currently own from the Mexican border to a distance of 2 miles inland. The feds would then build a simple chain-link fence on the border and put another at the limit of its boundry. Within these 2 fences it would then place nothing stationary, but armed Army choppers would routinely patrol this area and anti-personnel mines would be both planted and dropped from the air. Approperiate signage would be placed on the Mexican side to warn them that they are about to illegally enter an active military range where there is a better than even chance that they will be maimed or killed. The Army will be given shoot-to-kill orders.

This would settle this problem.

Posted by: Marvin at April 11, 2006 5:21 PM
Comment #139973

tomh,

“Support me if you can. Many times on the evening news in Phoenix when there drive by shootings and homicides, are there not also an a report from the news agency that refers to many of them as “undocumented nationals”?”

Sorry I didn’t jump in earlier, I had a 2:00pm appointment to have my house appraised.

There has been a rise in the types of crimes that you cited, as well as car theft and car hijackings. Most however seem to be purpetrated in the areas that they have chosen to live (here in Phoenix that is mostly in the central areas and on the west side), though sometimes the crimes have lapped over to other neighborhoods as well.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 5:24 PM
Comment #139974

Marvin,

“First, change the law so that illegal aliens’ children will not qualify to be US citizens.”

That would require a change in the Constitution, a process that will take years.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 5:27 PM
Comment #139976

Marvin,

“Second, the US government will exercise eminent domain and buy all land it does not currently own from the Mexican border to a distance of 2 miles inland. The feds would then build a simple chain-link fence on the border and put another at the limit of its boundry. Within these 2 fences it would then place nothing stationary, but armed Army choppers would routinely patrol this area and anti-personnel mines would be both planted and dropped from the air. Approperiate signage would be placed on the Mexican side to warn them that they are about to illegally enter an active military range where there is a better than even chance that they will be maimed or killed. The Army will be given shoot-to-kill orders.”

And just where do you propose the money will come from?
This could cost into the trillions of dollars to implement, and that would be if all the land was level.
Eminent domain? Oh, please.

This just ain’t gonna happen.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 5:31 PM
Comment #139978
Brian Poole wrote: d.a.n., The real problem I have with your posts is that they try to stir people up against hispanic immigrants.
False. First, I’ve said many times (repeatedly) that I don’t hate or blame illegal aliens for coming here for work. But, illegal aliens do not all come here for work. With 32% of all illegal aliens on welfare and 29% of all prisoners are illegal aliens, it appears that “American Dream” is, for some, more that just a job. Crime and Welfare is part of the dream too. Second Also, I never mentioned race. You did. I’ve always said: illegal alien. So, it is you that jumps to conclusions. You rushed to a racist conclusion. Shame on you.
Brian Poole wrote: But I don’t want my daughter to have to prove shes a citizen every day of her life because she is hispanic.
No one should be blamed for anything they are not guilty of. Racism is wrong. But, race has nothing to do with illegal immigration, and it really gets old seeing people continually trying to play the race card.

Brian Poole,
Once again, I never mentioned race.
You did.
Illegal aliens are of all races.
If your daughter is a legal U.S. citizen, there should be no problem.

Just because anyone pays attention to the rising crime rates due to illegal aliens, does not mean they are racist or trying to fuel racism.
In fact, the people that fuel the racism the most are the pro-illegal-alien sympathizers, making excuses for illegal aliens, and calling those opposed to illegal immigration racists. Classic.

Talk about problems, fine, talk about costs, fine, but don’t post these inflammatory individual accounts …
I did not post only individual accounts. I posted numerous nation wide accounts, reports from the GAO, DOJ, BJS, CIS, and other credible sources from many states. Your assertion that it is anectdotal is in error. Illegal aliens have increased crime rates in many cities, and it is getting worse. You may not want to hear it, but that is a fact supported by ample studies and research. So get used to it. I plan to talk a lot more about crime, and the burdens on our systems. You have neither the right or the power to tell me what not to post.
… try to claim that they are representative of illegal immigrants as a whole, because they are not.
Wrong again, I never said criminal illegal aliens were representative of immigrants as a whole. For you to accuse me of that makes your statements more out of line than anything I’ve said.

Once again, I’ve said numerous times that crime is only part of many problems stemming from illegal aliens:


  • increased crime rates;

  • burden on education systems;

  • burden on healthcare systems;

  • burden on hospital systems;

  • burden on welfare systems; 32% of illegal aliens are on welfare (Jan-2004);

  • burden on Social Security system;

  • burden on Medicaid system;

  • burden on border patrol systems; ever increasing numbers are needed;

  • burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;

  • burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;

  • burden on prison systems; 29% of prisoners in state and federal prisons are illegal aliens (Sep-2004);

  • burden on voting systems; voter fraud with fake ID;

You may think you are being kind an benevolent, but U.S. citizens are suffering due to the chaos and societal disorder being created by massive, uncontrolled immigration.

Lastly, no reforms are possible until one fundamental change is made first. All voters need to do is the one simple, common-sense, no-brainer, non-partisan, safe, peaceful, inexpensive, and responsible thing voters were supposed to be doing all along:


Vote out (or recall) all irresponsible incumbents, always, every election, until no more irresponsible incumbents exist, and government finally agrees to pass the many badly-needed, common-sense, responsible reforms that incumbents have refused to pass for so many decades.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 11, 2006 5:42 PM
Comment #139982

Max,
‘In other words, I think the current proposal covers your concerns Dawn.’

A proposal. I don’t remember the last time a ‘proposal’ passed without being doctored in one way or another.

They will wait for this to die down, and our attention is drawn away to another issue, then sneak something in that most of us do not approve of.

Posted by: dawn at April 11, 2006 5:56 PM
Comment #139984
Tony, if you would accept a little advise, don’t get d.a.n. started, he arises no healthy conversation… injects hate, fear, racism and changes around whatever you say, …and he is never wrong, most stubborn guy on earth, I have nothing against jehova witnesses and I’m sorry if I’m offending anyone but I think the guy used to be one of them, there is nothing but their truth and don’t respect anyone else’s ideas, you’ll see. RV.

R.V.
It was you and others that play the race card.


R.V. wrote:
d.a.n. you along with David Remer and JC just love the illegal aliens subject and the negative side of having them here.

I’ve never addressed R.V. until he implied that I, David Remer, and JC are racists.

R.V. is just mad because I shot his lame arguments full of holes, and he knows it. Now, he is trying to recruit others against me. How revealing.

You decide for yourself.

Illegal immigration is not about race, and those that try to play the race card are hurting their own cause.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 11, 2006 5:57 PM
Comment #139992

Dan,
You still didn’t put up any sources other than one opinion peice for your 32% figure. I’m not saying that you are racist, I’m saying that the kinds of arguments you make can be easily turned to racism. And you are trying to apply them to all illegal immigrants, otherwise you would be saying that those people who committed those crimes should be punished, and not using it as an argument against illegal immigration.

I think that there is a parallel with the arguments against gun control and the arguments about illegal immigration and crime. Most crime associated with illegal immigrants is drug-related, I would bet (stats, D.A.N.?). There is a huge profit margin for the drug trade. Despite years of massive enforcement and billions of dollars, we haven’t managed to stop it. Drugs and drug dealers are not going to stop coming into the country, they have too good of an incentive. Therefore, if we massively beef up border restriction, who is going to make it in? The hard-working, family-oriented benefits to society, or the drug dealing, violent gang members? Hint, the drug dealers have the money and the means.

My point is, if you take away border crossing, then only criminals will cross borders (or something like that).

Posted by: Brian Poole at April 11, 2006 6:13 PM
Comment #139997

I don’t understand the “you broke the law, you you need to pay the price” concept - as it relates to this.

In college, I broke pretty much every controlled substance law (except intent to sell…wasn’t much of a business man back then.) I now own my own busniess - I’m a dad - I’m a landlord… Should I go back and serve some sort of penalty for infractions in the past? If you could point to someone who was wronged by my illegal actions… then maybe. If you could point to harm done to society… maybe. But to require that people pay for breaking laws that are more protocol… ???

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 6:30 PM
Comment #140009

Tony:

Despite the fact that you are now a business owning, dad and landlord, if you were caught currently violating the law, you would still be liable for prosecution. Illegal immigrants are currently violating the law, therefore they are eligible for prosecution.

Your point would be valid if someone intended to prosecute persons who had at one time resided illegally in the US and then left. Being here illegally is against the law and is subject to prosecution.

I would also like to point out that comparisons between the wave of European immigration prior to WWI and the new hispanic immigration movement are invalid. To accurately assess these two events you need to take into account the fact that the US did not assume a huge financial burden by accepting immigrants prior to the enactment of social welfare legislation. European immigrants came to this country with no safety net and did not represent a looming fiscal liability. That is certainly not the case with the current immigration wave.

Posted by: goodkingned at April 11, 2006 7:27 PM
Comment #140010

Here’s the basic issue facing people wanting to come here legally. It’s costs money… more money than all but the wealthiest in most countries can afford.

My employee - who has dual citizenship but was currently living in Ecuador - had to pay several thousand dollars in fees + an equal amount in brides to move the process along and get his wife the papers to come into the US to live with him and work. Both of them had to have proof of employement in the US. It took over 2 years, which I am told is extremely quick.

Basically, unless you are rich, or have strong contacts within the US, coming here legally is all but impossible. So, do we only extend the welcome mat to the wealthy of other countries? Who posting here would be living here if we had those immigration policies in the past?

Do we really want to turn the US into a gated community?

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 7:53 PM
Comment #140012

the average monthly income in Ecuador is $87

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 7:55 PM
Comment #140015

Tony:

Yes, I do think that prospective immigrants should have some visable means of supporting themselves when they get here. The cost of supporting indigent immigrants is beoming a luxury that the US can ill afford.

I do support a guest worker program that would allow otherwise ineligible persons to enter the US. Guest worker programs could be tied to employment offers and properly monitored to ensure that ineligible applicants (criminals etc.) are excluded. With the earnings from their employment in the US, guest workers would have sufficient revenue to meet the financial requirements for completing the citizenship process.

What do you think? It’s not an open door and but it’s not nailed shut.

Posted by: goodkingned at April 11, 2006 8:13 PM
Comment #140017

“What do you think? It’s not an open door and but it’s not nailed shut.”

OK - it’s getting there. I like having official ways of getting people into the country without buying a ticket. I like removing all the illegal aspects of their travels and time here. No more human cargo movers, no more ricky trips across the border… not more business men/snakes preying on them while they are here - hold the deporation threat over their heads. They pay taxes, make a living, become the next genereation of the American dream. Those who come here illegally will need to have some sort of issue to face, but I’m very wary of closing the borders.

Many of the people have crap for lives - no wonder they want to come here. I think we should try to live up to their expectations.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 8:23 PM
Comment #140024

One need only watch the third world mutts demonstrating in our streets to realize that if they dont get what they want there will be a war in the streets like we have never seen before. You idiots can argue the pros and cons forever or at least untill one of the wetbacks cut your throat. Thinking, courageous people will stand up to the vermin and back up their decision with whatever it takes. If our weak kneed queer representatives dont stand up to these criminals this time you can kiss your country goodby. Deversiffacation is another word for self hate. So to those of you who hate your own culture take your sorry ass somewhere else and let those of us with the balls to stand up for our country take care of business.

Posted by: JC at April 11, 2006 8:51 PM
Comment #140026

Tony you are either a moron or a illeagal “guest worker”

Posted by: JC at April 11, 2006 8:54 PM
Comment #140027

JC:

In my experience, people who talk like that tend to be the ones hiding behind the women and children when death comes.

Posted by: Aldous at April 11, 2006 9:03 PM
Comment #140028

Wow JC. I’m speechless… at least you spelled moron right. (Hint: Illegal - bad spelling kind of takes the sting out of the insult, don’t ya think.)

Was that all you had to say, or would like to add to the conversation?

(Thanks Aldous.)

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 9:09 PM
Comment #140029

JC,

“Thinking, courageous people will stand up to the vermin and back up their decision with whatever it takes.”

Wow, thinking, courageous, people huh?

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 9:17 PM
Comment #140032

Sorry guys but you made to mad to spell properly. I wonder how many Guest workers can spell deportation?

Posted by: JC at April 11, 2006 9:22 PM
Comment #140034

JC,

“Sorry guys but you made to mad to spell properly.”

Pull yourself together son.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 9:25 PM
Comment #140036

Aldous In your experience, Im sure what you said fits.

Posted by: JC at April 11, 2006 9:27 PM
Comment #140037

“It is understood that the majority of illegal immigrants residing in our Nation are law abiding people trying to make a better life for themselves and their families.”


Regardless of whether they are good or bad; they’re still ILLEGAL! There must be consequences for breaking our laws. We need to secure the border First, then deal with the illegals we have in this country. Though, these wussy Senators will not come up with anything better then the McCain/Kennedy bill; and that means things will get worse.

Posted by: rahdigly at April 11, 2006 9:28 PM
Comment #140038

JC -

Why the venom? What has the average “illegal” done to you? Your family? I know quite a few people who hate “illegals” because they take jobs from Americans. If you (using YOU in the broad sense) can’t hold you own against someone who doesn’t even speak English - I don’t think you much of a shot at holding the job anyway.

Also, can you take another shot at the previous post - I don’t quite get what you’re saying… I think you are saying that you were too mad to spell. Why? These are just opinions and ideas - hardly anything to loose sleep over. Relax… share your thoughts… tell us more than how you feel, tell us why you feel that way.

Everyone has a different experience - I’m just curious to know yours.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 9:28 PM
Comment #140040
Rocky, D.A.N. answered your question. He wants to amend the constitution so that who your parents are determines your US citizenship.
Well, sort of. From here on out, I would not guarantee citizenship to offspring of any illegal aliens. I said illegal aliens who cross the border, like they do everyday in Laredo, TX, to have their baby in our ERs, should not guarantee U.S. Citizenship. That is an obvious magnet. Illegal aliens have their babies in the U.S. so that they now have and anchor baby so that they can get a permanent blue passport. You think that is fair to the many immigrants trying to get into the country legally.

So, call me what ever you all like.
Call me a racist, xenophobe, etc., etc., etc.
I’ve heard it all.

BTW, do you all know how politically incorrect it is to say illegal aliens increase crime rates? I’m not doin’ myself any favors here at all. People call me racist, xenophobe, and worse. But, I’ll stick by my conclusion, because as far as I can tell from a whole year of research is that illegal aliens are indeed raising the crime rates. It was not always that way. It started a long time ago in Los Angeles, and started spreading to many other states after 1990. Any one, like myself, Frosty Woolridge, D.A. King, Michelle Malkin, Jerry Seper (Washington Times), etc., etc., etc., are not doing ourselves any favors. They are all hated by many, even though most Americans want illegal immigration stopped. But, they are afraid to stand up because the don’t want to be called a racist. I’m hate to have to bring up the crime issue, but it is a fact. It is a serious issue. It in no way says all illegal aliens are criminals (excluding being here illegally). To deny the rising crime rates is a slap in the face of all the victims and their survivors. Where is the compassion for one person murdered every 86 hours by an illegal alien (source: GAO-5646R) ?

By the way, D.A.N., I’ve been meaning to ask, do you have a source that 32% of illegal immigrants are on welfare other than the opinion piece you always cite (that one doesn’t give their source)? I have a hard time believing it but I’d like to check it out. Thanks
See below.
Brain Poole wrote: Dan, You still didn’t put up any sources other than one opinion peice for your 32% figure. I’m not saying that you are racist, I’m saying that the kinds of arguments you make can be easily turned to racism. And you are trying to apply them to all illegal immigrants, otherwise you would be saying that those people who committed those crimes should be punished, and not using it as an argument against illegal immigration.
See below.
  • In 2002, at least 32% of illegal aliens received welfare (i.e. 32% = 100 * (3,787,864 / 12,000,000)). NOTE: that is 3,787,864 households!. There is at least one person per household. The percentage is even bigger if you include all known individuals (instead one person per household) to calculate the percentage. That is why some esitmate the total to be higher at 36% to 42%, but I stick to the lower 32% until I have more data.
  • from cis.org-articles-2003-back503.html (Center for Immigration Studies), March 2003: In 1996 [10 years ago], 22% of immigrant-headed households used at least one major welfare program, compared to 15% percent of native households.
  • …Continuing high rates of immigrant welfare use, coupled with the rapidly growing immigrant population has meant that the number of immigrant households using welfare has increased by 750,000 since 1996, with immigrant households now accounting for 18 percent of all households using a major welfare program, up [in 2003] from 14% in 1996.
  • Illegal aliens
  • are NOT necessarily coming here to work. Lou Dobbs (CNN) recently reported that 33% of our prison population is now comprised of non-citizens. Plus, 36% to 42% percent of illegal aliens are on welfare.
  • Half of all welfare usage in the state [CA] is from immigrant households, and 32 percent of all illegal-immigrant households receive benefits from at least one welfare program. The average welfare payment — just counting the four major welfare programs — to illegal-immigrant households is $1,400 a year. Half of all kids in the public-school system are from immigrant families, a dramatic increase in the number of kids in schools without a corresponding increase in the tax base. About half of immigrants are too poor to pay any income taxes. According to a National Academy of Sciences study in 1997, the average immigrant household represented a net fiscal drain on the state of $3,500 a year. If you do the math (not even adjusting for inflation), that would mean that immigrant households cost state and local governments to the tune of $11 billion. No wonder people voted for Proposition 187, including 31 percent of Hispanics. The GOP wasn’t hurt by it. Republicans were getting about 30 percent of the Hispanic vote before Proposition 187, and have been getting about 30 percent since. Their basic political problem with Hispanics is that they are poor, and poor people vote for Democrats.

I realize a lot of people want to call me racist, xenophobe, hard-hearted, etc.
It is not about race.
It is just plain common sense.
The end result of massive, uncontrolled, illegal immigration is chaos, societal disorder, resentments, fuels racism, and we all lose.
The U.S. is not for the public use of the world not more than your home is for the public use of uninvited illegal aliens. The greedy employers that lure (foolishly risking their lives) illegal aliens here for sub-minimum wages should be prosecuted. With a welfare state, as we have it, our numerouse services, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, ERs, hospitals, public and schools are abused. Los Angeles ERs are packed with illegal aliens, while U.S. citizens wait (and die). Illegal aliens are stealing from us. It is that simple. The total cost is a net loss to U.S. citizens. And the cost does not even include the cost of at least one person murdered by an illegal alien every 86 hours (source: GAO 5646R) by an illegal alien.

Please do not make excuses for illegal aliens.
You are selling yourselves out.
There is no mystery why thousands of illegal aliens trespass our borders daily. Most come for jobs, but 32% receive our welfare, and they fill our prisons (not just for illegal trespass either). 29% of all prisoners are illegal aliens (source: washingtondispatch.com).

Lastly, no reforms (not immigration, or any of the many reforms discussed here daily) are possible until one fundamental change is made first. All voters need to do is the one simple, common-sense, no-brainer, non-partisan, safe, peaceful, inexpensive, and responsible thing voters were supposed to be doing all along:


Vote out (or recall) all irresponsible incumbents, always, every election, until no more irresponsible incumbents exist, and government finally agrees to pass the many badly-needed, common-sense, responsible reforms that incumbents have refused to pass for so many decades.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 11, 2006 9:31 PM
Comment #140041

Rocky
Its hard for any one with balls to deal with appease before fight types.

Posted by: JC at April 11, 2006 9:32 PM
Comment #140043

rahdigly,

“We need to secure the border First, then deal with the illegals we have in this country.”

First of all it ain’t gonna happen cause it will cost too much money and
second of all it ain’t gonna happen cause it will cost too much.

Our economy and cheap labor have become intertwined, and the American people don’t have the will to do it.
Hey I’m all for securing the border.
Where’s the money going to come from?
Where’s the manpower going to come from?

It ain’t gonna happen.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 9:35 PM
Comment #140045

JC,

“Its hard for any one with balls to deal with appease before fight types”

Wow, was that an attempt to insult me?

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 9:36 PM
Comment #140046

“The end result of massive, uncontrolled, illegal immigration is chaos, societal disorder, resentments, fuels racism, and we all lose. “

Our country was founded on uncontrolled immigration. The only non-immigrant people mostly died of small pox. This is the best country in world, by far.

I see your fear - I just don’t see your logic.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 9:37 PM
Comment #140048

I have seen to most repugnant, vile redneck learn to speak Spanish. It’s like seeing the slow kid down the street write a best selling novel… simply unexpected and stunning. He’s no longer racist - at least not against Hispanics… once you learn someone’s language, you learn a lot more about them and their culture. It’s hard to ignore the good you find in people.

If for no other reason than bilingual rednecks, I think the borders should remain open.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 9:44 PM
Comment #140049

Dawn,

Why don’t you support your president and follow in his shoes like a good Republican. Mr. Bush needs low wage workers to fullfill the needs of his lobbies, friends and interests. Come on you know it’s only jobs that Americans and heads of households in need could take and suppliment their incomes on—so hey grrrl it’s no big deal. Poor people should have to suffer that’s why we make them all pay our taxes now.

See it’s all for the best and Bush is a great great man regardless how he treats others. WE REPUBLICANS ALWAYS SUPPORT OUR PRESIDENT!

Posted by: REPUBBY WOMAN at April 11, 2006 9:45 PM
Comment #140053

The time and date to have dealt with the immigration problem was high noon on 9/11/2001.

On that date and at that time, it should have been crystal clear to the entire world to the US needed to get its house in order, pronto. The airlines were already shut down for the foreseeable future. The stock exchange was already down. How hard would it have been to use our military might to lock down this country from border to border; land, sea and air nothing going in or going out except on a strict need to do so basis, need being defined by how it improved homeland security.

Then one by one, every living person should have been screened as to whether they have the right to be in this country or not. If they didn’t have the right to be here, then they should have been sent back where they came from unless someone who does have the right to be here was willing to be responsible for them while they went through the bureaucracy of becoming a citizen.

Sure there would have been hardship; there might even have been serious economic ramifications. There would no doubt have been cries of civil rights violations from the far left.

The fact that we are still trying to get to the bottom of this matter is eloquent proof of the ineffectiveness of Bush, Cheney and the Republican-controlled legislature on addressing homeland security. Security of the entire nation against external enemies is the single most important task and duty of the federal government but Bush, Cheney and Republicans still just don’t seem to get it.

They still think that the way to make the homeland more secure is to send our soldiers off to fight in distant parts of the world having no more to do with our national security than Greenland.

Why is that?

Posted by: wanna_be_jack at April 11, 2006 10:06 PM
Comment #140056

Tony As a construction manager for the last 30 years I have delt with these “guest workers” under more circumstances than most of you intellectuals. I find them mostly inept at anything but the more basic tasks. Not speaking english causes monumental confusion in the work place. Because most sub contractors hire these guys to save money on their proposals Im forced to deal with sub quality work. These mexicans are making just enough less than a competent white guy would make to cost him his job. When you get enough wetbacks in a trade or union, they intimadate the whites to the point they wont show up to work. As soon as they have enough bodies to equal or surpass the whites they demand more compensation which ends up costing the consumer even more than if there were no illegals. That as well as the undeniable fact that they cost us in wellfare, health care,prision space,education for their brood, and just plain fear for those of you who are unable or unwilling to defend yourselves, is just plain insanity. Anyone feeling sorry for these criminals or heaven forbid wanting to grant them rights has a serious idealistic mental problem. I guess Savage is right. Liberalism is a mental dissorder.

Posted by: JC at April 11, 2006 10:12 PM
Comment #140057

It is a slap in the face for all the legal immigrants who endured the costs, tests, and wait to become citizens while abiding by our laws.

I see the GOP is about to cave in to the illegal’s demonstrations this last week. They can no longer dismiss the losses at the polls in November of their previous 40% of the Hispanic vote. Appeasement for reelectability is now the only avenue left them.

But, the 64 Million dollar question is, if they capitulate and recapture say 35% of their Hispanic vote, how many legal immigrant and white votes will they lose?

The political math just stepped up to calculus.

Posted by: David R. Remer at April 11, 2006 10:12 PM
Comment #140059

d.a.n.,

Do not put words in my mouth you cited what I wrote which is again:

R.V. wrote: d.a.n. you along with David Remer and jc just love the illegal aliens subject and the negative side of having them here.

Well, about 9 million of them will be legalized pretty soon.

Do you know that each one of them will pay the government a thousand dollar fine for having entered the country ilegally? plus about $300 a pop for processing fees… not to mention all the fees that the attorneys will charge them for filing…

Do the math and tell me what is the negative side of all those trillion dollars coming back?

They will be taxed now because after the legalization they will prosecute employers who hire illegals.

What is the negative side of them still be able to stay and make payments on everything they owe: houses, cars, credit cards?

Wouldn’t it be a loss to all those companies not getting their money back, most assets are not worth what they are owed, credit card balances are merely a loss, most companies would bankrupt, we are talking about 13 million people.

What about the cost of shipping them out?

Just curious….

R.V.

…This is what I mean when I say you turn around everything people says, you cite what I said and then lie about it, I did not state you were a racist…

… just that you want everybody to believe all illegal aliens are criminals and the responsible of all evil going on in the US, I cited the figures in the department of justice to show what you say is not true the link is below somewhere, I really don’t know what moves you but not many people will believe your opinion if your lies are so obvious.

Now to whoever wants to read I also told him all the following:

d.a.n., It just saddens me how divided we are and how egotistical and inhumane some of us are becoming, just the facts right? ok, d.a.n. you’ve cited this website before:

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

…as a way to prove illegal immigrants are a burden: if you read the third bullet after you start reading this article, it states clearly that the federal deficit caused by illegals is due to the fact that they do not have a high school diploma and therefore they make little money, not because of their legal status or the use of the public services, meaning if anyone else black american, asiatic americans or less fortunate white american citizens were doing those jobs they would get paid those same rates to keep the system stable and therefore they would be poor and forced to use those services anyway, the ones you list so much, welfare, schools. etc., d.a.n. realize you are attacking the poor not the immigrants with your thinking.

….if you go back to your roots you will eventually get to an ancestor of yours finding his way here making little money and working his self off for you to sit right now in front of your computer demonizing others doing the same for their own people…but of course for my grnadfather it was ok because it was allowed, correct? now we have laws….this is called hipocresy.

… it is not a race, color or procedence thing….it is a matter of humanity…

…Ignorant I’m if to be a knowledgeable man I have to renounce to the dignity of twelve million human beings…

29% in jail are illegals?, give me facts as you like to do it, Are they only hispanic last name? or naturalized? or born here? or merely illegals? because if they all are not in the last group you are talking about americans with hispanic ascendance not illegals.

even if they all were illegals it is 29%, what about the other 61%? they are all saints or is it that they do have right to do the crime because they are americans?

We should wipe off the word illegal, we should all be equal, we should all pay taxes and should have better control of our borders and the people coming in should have permits to do so, we should ship out the few that cannot be legalized and be strict enforcing the new immigration laws so we don’t have to deal with this again ever, so we can live in peace not in a quiet war, like the one you have against immigrants…

Also:

Here is another one, you just offered more “proof” right above, in the Federal accounting office extract: http://www.gao.gov/htext/d05646r.html

read the whole thing man!!, it states that the study was made in the three states only, the ones with the most illegal population!, California, Arizona and ta da Texas, California’s hispanic/illegal population is more than 75 percent so 58 percent arrests and convictions corresponds directly to population, it is not that illegal immigrants are more criminal than any other race despite the culture clash.

Why don’t you refer to the illegal inmate population in Idaho? because it will be what? one percent? so that does not make your point fly now does it? like I said it goes according to the race of the population.

…and it goes on at the bottom of the page reads: Convictions: Federal Prison Illegal Alien Inmates: Almost 90 percent of this portion of our study population was convicted of immigration or drug offenses, homicide is 1% so they are not out there killing people only like you want me to think and most of them are there just for being illegals.

I agree with you and you do have a point where you state that immigration can’t be uncontrolled and that needs to change but I’m also with Bush when he says that immigration is a sign that we are a powerful, stable and confident nation.

And…

Go to the link below and read, apparently I’m not the only one seeing things from a different point of view and using my “rethoric and opinion”, this was published in the Atlanta Journal Constitution. http://www.ajc.com/search/content/auto/epaper/editions/today/opinion_34201b0f84a5704f002b.html

I look at it this way… there is no rich country where there is no illegal immigration so we can’t help people trying to come and get here, we are a rich country but the difference between them and us is many have much better controls than us.

This people is even necessary for our growth when we know who they are and where they live and if they have a criminal past or not, criminals one race or another tend to repeat their actions over and over.

…And goes on:

If you read my first opinion all I said was pretty much we were back on track by legalizing 9 million people and ship out only the remaining two or three million that have been here less than two years which we can do, because shipping them all out is just not possible, it would cost too much from any point of view.

…And last:

check this site:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm It is statistics on homicides between 1976 and 2002 this is a government site, offeders are blacks or whites 96% of the times, and the remaining 4% under other are the mix of anything else not black or white including illegal immigrants, what are you going to say now?, government numbers are not to trust?

Remember what I said before? illegals are not out there to kill you!

I’m sorry d.a.n. you said it yourself: nobody has the power to control what others think or post. RV.


Posted by: R.V. at April 11, 2006 10:19 PM
Comment #140060

The U.S. has spent hundreds of billions and much manpower in Iraq alone. We have the resources and the manpower to control illegal immigration, but internal politics discourage it. Certain segments of the population oppose to it. For example, Cuban American/residents would support the Cubans entering the US even without a legal basis. Hispanics or Mexican Americans oppose the construction of a more effective border wall, tougher penalties, or the cutting of government funding to illegal immigrants. Politicians do not want to lose the votes, so we are left with this growing issue.

We often think Mexican illegals come here because of dire economic conditions back home. However, a recent study by the Pew Hispanic Center found that the vast majority of Mexican illegals said they come here not because they cannot find a job or cannot have a decent living in Mexico. They come here to follow a tradition or a dream and to have a better life. To live in America is a goal many people there hope for and aspired to.

Illegal immigrants typically take jobs most Americans won’t take and this is due to a lower pay, not the type of work. A cheap, abundant labor pool drives down the wage. City garbage collectors have good wages and Americans are willing to take the job. Americans do compete with illegal immigrants for certain jobs such as in constructions. Much of the revenues the Mexican immigrants make is sent back , revenues exceeding tourism and second only to oil in Mexico. No wonder the Mexican president is pushing the U.S. in support for illegal immigrants. They should wait in line like those who came here legally. I am an American citizen who came here as a legal immigrant, and I would not hinder efforts to control illegal immigration. By giving a large body of illegal immigrants a legal status, we are sending the wrong message. How do we ever hope to uphold the law and control our border? I am for legal immigration, not illegal immigration.

Posted by: Dan at April 11, 2006 10:19 PM
Comment #140062

I think this Easter break should be a real test to the Senate. They are going to take so much pressure, from their constituents, that they’ll have to do something. If not, the House Bill will go through; only to be met by the Prez that will probably use his veto pen (for once!) to strike it down, b/c it doesn’t have a guest worker plan.

It’s amazing that, just about every poll that’s come out on the illegal aliens, the American people are overwhelmingly behind enforcing our laws, including legal immigrants in this country; yet, the politicians are not listening to the voters. Incredible.

Posted by: rahdigly at April 11, 2006 10:23 PM
Comment #140064

JC,

“Anyone feeling sorry for these criminals or heaven forbid wanting to grant them rights has a serious idealistic mental problem. I guess Savage is right. Liberalism is a mental dissorder.”

So here’s two questions, how much are you willing to pay to secure the border?

How much are you willing to pay in costs to round up and deport the illegals?

BTW, Savage is a hack, who would be incapable of holding down a job outside of radio.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 10:23 PM
Comment #140067

Dan you are an idealistic uninformed liberal. The wetbacks are paid as much as the job can afford to pay and still finish in the black. The main reason americans dont take those jobs is because they make more on wellfare. Simple solution; Fine employers who hire the wetbacks and pay wellfare to only those who cant work because of a mental or physical disorder. You have to quit trying to analize this problem and tackle it before its to late.

Posted by: JC at April 11, 2006 10:32 PM
Comment #140068

Tony As expected you ignored the substance of my post and chose to critize the humerous part. As to securing the border any price would probably be under the price of allowing the hispandemic to continue.

Posted by: JC at April 11, 2006 10:38 PM
Comment #140077

Any out there think that Americans don’t support tough measures against illegal aliens, check this out:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44154

Posted by: rahdigly at April 11, 2006 10:48 PM
Comment #140079

JC,

There are Americans who will do any job if the pay is right. This includes sewer maintenance, garbage collection, radioactive waste disposal, etc. Labor supply and demand also determine the wage. Also, as long as employers can save more money by hiring illegals and get away with it, the practice will continue. Your reference to welfare is another issue not closely relate to my remarks. By the way, I am not a liberal, and it would premature and rash to jump to such conclusion. Well, good night and take it easy. I have to go to work early.

Posted by: Dan at April 11, 2006 10:52 PM
Comment #140081

Rocky; Tony; Dan: whats up? you guys give up under the undeniable statement of facts. Next you will be telling me global warming is real.

Posted by: JC at April 11, 2006 10:54 PM
Comment #140083

Dan Have a great day at work! Sorry I labeled you as a liberal.

Posted by: JC at April 11, 2006 11:10 PM
Comment #140086

Let’s see if this is right, our military can’t secure our border; yet, Mexico has its’ military on both the southern and northern border. Isn’t that hypocrisy on the part of Mexico?

Posted by: rahdigly at April 11, 2006 11:18 PM
Comment #140090
R.V. wrote: d.a.n. you along with David Remer and JC just love the illegal aliens subject and the negative side of having them here.

R.V.,
Your statement above speaks for itself. Your inference was clear.
I’m sure those other people will regard your statements the same way as I did. Shame on you.

29% in jail are Hispanics? , give me facts as you like to do it. Are they only Hispanic last name? or naturalized? or born here? or merely illegals? because if they all are not in the last group you are talking about americans with hispanic ascendance not illegals.
R.V. You said you didn’t play the race card, but your very own words show you to be mistaken or a liar. You just played the race card. Those are your words above. I never mentioned any race. You did. In case you didn’t know it, there are illegal aliens of many different races. As for the 29% statistic, see this (2004). (sources: washingtondispatch, theamericanresistance, GAO-5646R Report).
R.V. wrote: I look at it this way … there is no rich country where there is no illegal … immigration

R.V.
How revealing. Do you realize you are rationalizing an under class (i.e. cheap; practically slave labor)?

R.V. wrote: See Link: It is statistics on homicides between 1976 and 2002 this is a government site, offeders are blacks or whites 96% of the times, and the remaining 4% under other are the mix of anything else not black or white including illegal immigrants.
R.V. You claim to not want to make race and issue, and then, curiously, bring up a totally irrelevant study about blacks and whites. Why ? You then incorrectly assume the remaining 4% are illegal aliens. Your mistake is that illegal aliens are of all colors, and that report had nothing to do with illegal aliens.
R.V. wrote: Remember what I said before? illegals are not out there to kill you! The movies you watch maybe not suitable for you, tell your parents to give you advise on the contents, now come on out, exercise and breath some air, dude, you really need it.

R.V.
You resort to nonsense when you realize you have embarrassed yourself. You are unable to prove or disprove anything, so you resort to childishness. Then, you came over to this thread to trash me to tony and others as evidenced by your statement below:

R.V. wrote:
Tony, if you would accept a little advise, don’t get d.a.n. started, he arises no healthy conversation… injects hate, fear, racism and changes around whatever you say, …and he is never wrong, most stubborn guy on earth, I have nothing against jehova witnesses and I’m sorry if I’m offending anyone but I think the guy used to be one of them, there is nothing but their truth and don’t respect anyone else’s ideas, you’ll see.

R.V.
Your statements speak for itself. The truth is, you (R.V.) are really angry at yourself for making a fool of yourself. You can be mad at me for that if you like, but one can only make a fool of one’s self.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 11, 2006 11:40 PM
Comment #140091

NOTE:
There are two distinct posters here:
Dan and d.a.n (are not the same person)

Posted by: d.a.n at April 11, 2006 11:44 PM
Comment #140093

I think we should penalize employers of illegals, wait, how about the buyers who supply the stores, maybe we should mark illegally picked melons, and use hidden cameras in grocery stores to arrest those vile citizens who buy discounted veggies.
I hate it when businessmen are used as a scapegoat for social problems.
Our existing laws should be inforced whatever the cost. We have the resources. Minute men would volunteer. Start in the north and make a steady deporting sweep south after the border is secured.
The borders are already open for legal travel. Security is for illegal activity. No one wants to close the borders.

Posted by: kruser at April 11, 2006 11:46 PM
Comment #140095

JC,

Do I sympathize with someone that has faced death to find a better life here in America.?
You bet.
I do wish that they had taken the legal route, but their here now and I don’t see how anything is going to change that fact in the forseeable future.

Appeasement is a curious word.

http://www.merriamwebster.com/dictionary/Appeasement

“Main Entry: ap·pease
Pronunciation: &-‘pEz
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): ap·peased; ap·peas·ing
Etymology: Middle English appesen, from Middle French apaisier, from a- (from Latin ad-) + pais peace — more at PEACE
1 : to bring to a state of peace or quiet : CALM
2 : to cause to subside : ALLAY
3 : PACIFY, CONCILIATE; especially : to buy off (an aggressor) by concessions usually at the sacrifice of principles”

Now from your tone of use I can assume what you mean would be the third definition.
I actually see it as the first and to put a finer point on it I prefer the word diplomacy, you know, that word that Mr. Bush has just discovered.

So, back to the issue at hand.
Our government has been spending money like drunken sailors and things seem to be a bit tight at the moment. Frankly I can’t see where we can come up with the paper to do as you propose, what with the war and Katrina damage and who knows what we will be facing here in the near future.

Somehow I just don’t see that the U.S. government is going to be able to uproot 12 million people and force them to go back and register for re-entry. We just don’t have the money.

I also don’t see much changing on the border for the same reason.

Now if some fine upstanding American corporation wanted to step up to the plate and finance this venture I would be all ears.

Frankly, I’m not holding my breath.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 11:49 PM
Comment #140098

Corporations use money to survive,expand and pay taxes.
today after paying tens of thousands in I am a little sensitive. My salary is close to poverty level after taxes.
How about Soros or hollywood paying for it. Maybe a few rock stars or athletes could contribute.

Posted by: kruser at April 12, 2006 12:01 AM
Comment #140101

R.V. If you want to call me a racist go ahead. At least im not a fool. I classify anyone who is not an american who wants to overrun America as a traitor. In the case of the wetbacks they cant be traitors because they are not american citizens. AHa a condundrum what to do about those who cannot be labeled traitors because of their ilegality? Deportation mabey?

Posted by: JC at April 12, 2006 12:08 AM
Comment #140103

kruser,

Maybe Exxon-Mobil could use some of those record profits to help America out of the several trillion we now owe China.

Whatever happens, I just don’t see this being anything other than a political campaign talking point. Great hay will be made until after the election and then it will fade into obscurity again.

If you think either party will make you more secure, I want some of what you guys have been smoking.
The major parties exist now only to elect more chumps to office.

Posted by: Rocky at April 12, 2006 12:08 AM
Comment #140107

Rocky Good question. How about closing the border with what or whoever it takes for starters. Then fine employers who hire un documented workers, enough to cause a atmosphere of complete enforcement of the law. Presto no jobs no reason for the unwashed to remain here. One of too things will happen: 1) they will go home of their own accord. 2) they will try anarcy in the streets. If #1 all well and good if #2 Its better it happens now when there is only 12 million than later when there is double the amount. If you dont think they will rebel with violence when the above laws are passed you are a very inexperienced unrealistic guy. I grew up in south central LA as one of the only whites in the neighborhood, I know wherefore I speak.

Posted by: JC at April 12, 2006 12:28 AM
Comment #140108

Rocky Come on get off the corps.crap they are in business to make profits. If you want to cut the dept lets try cutting spending. Lets quit subsidising the guest workers and wellfare bums and instead spend a little more on the Iraq war so we can win and turn to something else. Like mabey Iran. In case you dont understand War helps our economy,Corporations invest in war, everyone works, we are secure and its all good.

Posted by: JC at April 12, 2006 12:42 AM
Comment #140109

JC,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.-Mexico_border

“The border’s total length is 1,951 miles (3,141 km), according to figures given by the IBWC. It is the most frequently crossed international border in the world, with some 350 million people crossing legally from one country to the other every year.”

350 million legal crossings a year. That doesn’t include the illegal crossings to and from.

If, and that is one huge if, we could actually make this border somehow more secure, commerce crossing the border would grind to a halt.
This would be a logistical nightmare, costing you and me hundreds of billions of dollars.

The Mexican border, to paraphrase from the wiki article spans from metropolitan areas through some of the most inhospitable desert on the planet, to the gulf.
Your ideas are impractical at best, and to think that this border could be completely secured is illogical.
It probably would be cheaper to put men on Mars, and keep them there, and it would probably take just as long to acomplish.

Posted by: Rocky at April 12, 2006 12:54 AM
Comment #140110

JC,

“Rocky Come on get off the corps.crap they are in business to make profits.”

Call it my attempt at a little humor.
But to be serious, don’t you think that the corporations have a stake in this as well?

Hey I’m all for more security, but frisking little old blue haired ladies and businessmen in $3,000 dollar suits at the airport isn’t going to have much of an impact, except to drive airline travelers away.
I even understand the concept of sending the illegals home, I just don’t belive for a minute it is going to happen.

It’s all about money and power, and those that have it don’t want things to change.

Posted by: Rocky at April 12, 2006 1:15 AM
Comment #140111

If a Wall does not come to pass, you all better learn Spanish as a primary language.

Though I admit it will be funny when the Man starts to mean a Latino in Charge.

Posted by: Aldous at April 12, 2006 1:17 AM
Comment #140113
tony wrote: DAN, Can you point to proof that the rise in crime is directly related to the rise in the illegal population? Can you also explain how allowing illegals to gain legal status would negatively impact the US? Just curious…

See below:
______(source: GAO Reports)____
In 1995, 11% of prisoners (state and federal) were illegal aliens.
In 2002, 17% of prisoners (state and federal) were illegal aliens.
In 2003, 25% of prisoners (state and federal) were illegal aliens.
In 2004, 29% of prisoners (state and federal) were illegal aliens.
In 2004 (Aug), 25% of prisoners (state and federal) were illegal aliens.
In 2005 (May), 25% of California’s state prisoners are illegal aliens.
In 2005 (Aug), 29% of prisoners (federal only) are illegal aliens.
In 2005 (Oct), 27% of prisoners (state and federal) are illegal aliens.
In 2006, 33% of prisoners (state and federal) are illegal aliens.
In 2000, the average time served by illegal aliens in Federal prison was 21 months.
_________________
Rising Crime Rates:

  • 95% of 1,200 warrants for homicide in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens. 66% of 17,000 fugitive felony warrants are for illegal aliens.

  • John Mullaly a former NYPD homicide detective, states 70% of the drug dealers and other criminals in Manhattan’s Washington Heights are were illegal aliens.
  • According to statistics by the Salt Lake City Police Department (and verified by an independent study), 80% of all drug crimes in the City are committed by illegal aliens. In Salt Lake County, the equivalent number is 50%. That’s why Congressman Cannon is on the Immigration Subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee. He is working to insure that interior states, like Utah, are not overlooked in the war on illegal immigration.

  • PHOENIX Television and radio stations began running ads in the Valley last week, paid for by the Coalition United to Secure America, attributing the 45% increase in homicides and 41% increase in home invasions to illegal aliens. Phoenix Police Department reports confirm those figures and Sgt. Tony Morales believes there is no doubt that the statistics are tied to illegal aliens. However, news reports about the ads have brought out comments from Rep. Steve Gallardo, District 13, who was quick to claim the ads racist (yep, anyone against illegal immigration is always a racist).

  • 12/31/2002: Six-month figures revealed a 3.3% increase in violent crime in California, including a 16 percent rise in homicides, over the same span in 2001.

  • February 06,2006: The Monitor, According to the Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Assistance, more than a quarter of the approximately 400,000 days spent in the Hidalgo County Jail during the course of the 365-day period belonged to criminal illegal aliens convicted with at least one felony or two misdemeanors. (Days spent in jail during the pre-trial period were counted only if the criminal illegal alien was convicted of the crime.) The Hidalgo County Jail held 3,335 eligible criminal illegal alien inmates for the fiscal year 2005 reporting period, up from 3,136 criminal illegal alien inmates in 2004. These numbers have been confirmed through the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement. But, the Hidalgo County jail only has 1,200 beds. Not only do thousands of criminal illegal aliens crowd the jail, but many make many repeat appearances.
  • Hence, many illegal aliens have been released due to overcrowding.
  • In 2001, 87% of deportable aliens who received run letters disappeared, a number that was even higher-94 percent-if they were from terror-sponsoring countries.

  • In 2005, there were 4,000 births at the Laredo, TX Medical Center maternity ward. 3997 healthy, screaming new American citizens, half born to illegal aliens that crossed the border just in time to obtain better care and Blue-Pass-Ports for their new offspring; this has been going on for decades.

  • In March 2000, Congress made public Department of Justice statistics showing that, over the previous five years, the INS had released over 35,000 criminal aliens instead of deporting them. Over 11,000 of those released went on to commit serious crimes, over 1,800 of which were violent ones (including 98 homicides, 142 sexual assaults, and 44 kidnappings). In 2001, thanks to a decision by the Supreme Court, the INS was forced to release into our society over 3,000 criminal aliens (who collectively had been convicted of 125 homicides, 387 sex offenses, and 772 assault charges).

  • at least one is murdered every 86 hours by an illegal alien.

  • (source: americanpolicy.org) Illegal aliens are in this country against the law. Illegal aliens are causing severe financial hardship to American schools and hospitals; causing many to close, denying legal Americans vital services; Illegal aliens are costing American taxpayers more than $30 billion per year in increased welfare; Illegal aliens are responsible for higher crime rates and increased drug smuggling;

  • From 1991 to 1995: The number of illegal aliens sentenced in federal courts increased by 167% , compared with 13 percent for U.S. citizens.

  • (source: juntosociety.com) The combination of clusters of illegal aliens and the persistence of illegal drugs has increased the crime rates. A Phoenix, AZ. police report states that 60% of the homicides involve illegal aliens mixed up in smuggling both drugs and people, Tucson, AZ crime rate has grown 12 times the national average, and a vehicle is stolen in Arizona every 10 minutes.

  • (source: fas.org) In 1995, federal prosecutors in five districts along the Southwest border brought 563 alien smuggling cases; a 69% increase over the previous year. Anti-smuggling apprehensions by the Border Patrol also were up; five-fold in San Diego; over 1993 levels
  • (source: spofga.org) Information about the Effects of Immigration on Georgia Immigration is out of control. One effect is increased crime
  • … more …

_________________

Can you also explain how allowing illegals to gain legal status would negatively impact the US? Just curious.
Remember the amnesty by Reagan in the 1980’s. What you see now is a result of that, and a failure to secure the borders. Want to see the current problem grow 2, 3, 4, or 10 times worse?. Give them legal status, and watch history repeat itself, except worse. Posted by: d.a.n at April 12, 2006 1:31 AM
Comment #140140

“Tony As expected you ignored the substance of my post and chose to critize the humerous part. “

I tried to get a real conversation going with you - all I hear ignorant remarks and blatant racism. I will not continue a discussion with you.

Posted by: tony at April 12, 2006 6:58 AM
Comment #140145

OK - let me rephase the question -

You show that the population and the crime rate rose at the same time - but what percentage of any given population is “illegal” vs other populations? I would expect the number of crimes to rise with the increase in popution… How do these numbers look if you view more than race? (Economics, geography, etc.) What kind of legal representation are these “illegals” given?

Experience tells me that labelling people illegal will not foster legal behavior. I know that criminal behaviour is a result on environmental influence, not genetics. I know that the Hispanics I have met are an amazing grasp of home and work ethics. These people bring a wealth of needed dedication to family.

My point is not to ignore the issues and problems, but try to discover root causes and possible solutions. Dismissing the issue as “it’s just the way THEY are” is not a solution, and since we will not be “sending THEM back home” and I don’t think we want to spend the resources to “lock THEM all away” - I suspect we want to learn how live together.

Posted by: tony at April 12, 2006 7:39 AM
Comment #140147

Posted by: REPUBBY WOMAN at April 11, 2006 09:45 PM

You’re funny RePubby!!

Posted by: dawn at April 12, 2006 7:45 AM
Comment #140155

d.a.n.,

quote R.V. You claim to not want to make race and issue, and then, curiously, bring up a totally irrelevant study about blacks and whites. Why ? You then incorrectly assume the remaining 4% are illegal aliens. Your mistake is that illegal aliens are of all colors, and that report had nothing to do with illegal aliens. R.V.

First of all it is not an irrelevant study it is a Department’s of Justice report on the homicides in the whole U.S. in a very large period of time and it is telling you 96% of the times the criminal is black or white, it is hard to believe a guy that does so much research as yourself cannot find out that latinos are not a race or belong to a group color because they are an ethnic group.

I don’t know if you have ever been asked your race in one of those life insurance documents or one of those many other companies that want to keep record that they are equal opportunitty concessors…

..they ask you to check one, white, black, filipino, asian, latino, other…

….latino even when some of them are whites, blacks and asian looking don’t fit in any of the three race categories, therefore, only 4% of the inmate population that has commited a homicide is nor black or white as per the department of justice, hispanics legal or illegal, chinese and others are in that group.. it is a no brainer.

d.a.n wrote:

How revealing. Do you realize you are rationalizing an under class (i.e. cheap; practically slave labor)?

Sometimes you get me confused are you in favor or against illegals, here you showed some heart, look, I have nothing against you and I’m in the best interest of finding a way out to the problem but statements like: “let’s deport them all” or “let’s kill them all”, “let’s put snipers in the border”, are surreal, illogic, inhumane, just will not happen and don’t contribute to consolidate a proposition for the solution of the problem.

I have seen your cifers so many times and I’m with you, we have a problem, if this is what you want to infere, given you are not racist or xenofobe or playing any cards as you say but some pointings are useless…

If you want to criminalize all illegal immigrants, you yourself said there is no room for more people in the jails plus not all of them are criminals, we cannot ship them out, the only and most logical way out is the ones non criminal already here should be legalized and by the way we would make money out of it, trillions of dollars, but all of these not before we have better control of the border and assure that the one legalized have no criminal history here or wherever they come from because criminals tend to repeat their action over and over. RV.

Posted by: RV. at April 12, 2006 9:01 AM
Comment #140156

Since this term is getting tossed around so much - I thought it might need some definition…


—-


wetback
Wetback or Wetbacks is a derogatory term for a Mexican laborer who, in order to obtain work in the United States, illegally enters the country by usually swimming or wading across the Rio Grande. The Spanish-language translation espalda mojada – or, more tersely, mojado – is used in a similar sense by Hispanic Americans. Espalda mojada is also used in an equally pejorative way in Spain to refer to illegal immigrants from Morocco who cross the Straits of Gibraltar.

In both the United States and Spain, such economic migrants or foreign workers, in spite of their illegal status, are a major source of cheap unskilled labor.

The English term was first used in 1920’s and saw official use by the U.S. Government in 1954 with Operation Wetback.

The Fox News commentator Bill O’Reilly, host of The O’Reilly Factor program, used the term “wetback” during a 6 February 2005 discussion of immigration problems along the U.S. - Mexico border. [1] This generated a lot of criticism.

Wetback is also a blanket term used to describe anyone of hispanic race.

Wetback was a controversial 1953 film dealing with immigration in the United States.

See: Marielito, List of ethnic slurs

A wetback stove or wetback heater is the name (used in New Zealand at least) for a simple household secondary water-heater using incidental heat. It typically consists of a hot water pipe running behind a fireplace or stove (rather than hot water storage), and has no facility to limit the heating. Modern wetbacks may run the pipe in a more sophisticated design to assist heat-exchange.

Posted by: tony at April 12, 2006 9:10 AM
Comment #140161

“Though I admit it will be funny when the Man starts to mean a Latino in Charge.”

Are you going to think it’s funny when you have to press 1 for Spanish and 2 for English? Let’s hope were not around to see that, b/c that’s no laughing matter.


These (idiot) politicians better remember who elected them, b/c “We the People” are in unisons with this illegal aliens issue. Bigtime!

Posted by: rahdigly at April 12, 2006 10:08 AM
Comment #140168
Your ideas are impractical at best, and to think that this border could be completely secured is illogical.

Border Security could easily be accomplished.
We already have the resourses.
We could expand the Border Patrol by simply transferring and/or using a mere 1% of the total 2.6 million active military, guard, and reserves along the borders where they could be more effective toward the goal of national security, defense, and stopping the chaotic and societal disruption of massive, uncontrolled illegal immigration. The U.S./Canada border (about 4000 miles) and the U.S./Mexico border (about 2,000 miles) could both (about 6,000 miles) be secured with a fence and 1,200 posts (spaced about 5 miles apart; denser in some areas than others) with 20 soldiers per post, which would only require a mere 26,000 patrol guards (about 1 every 1218 feet). That’s a drop in the bucket and a much better use of resources compared to the increased growth of 140,000 federal government employees since 2000.

Also, many old and new technologies exist to make the job easier too.
Also, a biometrics IDentification system, vehicle patrols, helicopters, unmanned aerial vehicles, remote cameras, radar, laser, sonar, thermal, seismic, and other sensors and technology could greatly enhance the ability to secure the borders also. And, the Coast Guard could patrol the coast lines.

We already have all of these resources.
We have millions of troops, some underutilized at bases in every state.
What good is a massive armed forces of 2.6 million (active military, Guard, and Reserves) if we don’t even use a small percentage (less than 1%) of the troops to protect our nation’s borders? Also, not all illegal aliens are simply looking for jobs. Some of those already apprehended are from Al Qaeda (source: washtimes.com: a top Al Qaeda lieutenant met with leaders of a violent Salvadoran criminal gang with roots in Mexico and the United States; including a stronghold in the Washington area; in an effort by the terrorist network to seek help infiltrating the U.S./Mexico border).

Entry points could also use old and new technologies to facilitate security. Likewise with ports. It is not impossible, or nearly as difficult and costly as some believe. Compare it to the total cost of 11-Sep-2001. Would we rather repeat that?

The capability exists.
What does not exist is the will.
Too many Americans will ignore the problem until it is too late (such as 11-Sep-2001).
Too many Americans have lost the can-do attitude.
Too many Americans have don’t care or have resigned to futility, and it is all rooted in a decay of values.
Too many Americans have sold each other out, government is FOR SALE, greedy employers are allowed to create an underclass because they don’t want to pay minimum wage and/or taxes.
Too many Americans refuse to see the obvious common sense problems stemming from uncontrolled, massive, illegal immigration.
Too many Americans fail to recognize the impact of illegal aliens voting in our elections, using our schools, welfare, Medicaid, and prisons, and the massive burden on our education, E.R., hospital, insurance, law enforcement, border patrol, disease control, homeland security, voting, Social Security, Medicaid, welfare (32% of illegal aliens receive welfare), and prison systems (29% of all prisoners are illegal aliens).
Too many well meaning, bleedin’ heart, wanna-be-benevolent Americans are selling each other out and have more compassion for illegal aliens disrespecting our laws and services, than they have for the victims and survivors of crime by illegal aliens (one person in the U.S. is murdered every 86 hours by an illegal alien, and that doesn’t include all the deaths caused by drunk or unskilled drivers).
Too many Americans are foolishy (but quite generously) handing over all they worked for to illegal aliens that disrespect our laws, increase crime rates, spread disease, and overflow our ERs and hospitals without paying, abuse our welfare systems while truly needy tax paying U.S. citizens go without.
Too many Americans have sold us out, and we are merely witnessing the transfer of assets.
Too many Americans complain about voter fraud, but totally ignore the millions of illegal aliens voting in their elections.
Democrats want the votes.
Republicans want the cheap labor.
Voters empower both.
And, we wonder why we have these problems. Duh !
We’re doin’ it to ourselves.
So, as usual, we’re gettin’ exactly what we deserve.

While voters bitch and complain, they fail to use the very thing right under their nose to easily, peacefully, safely, inexpensively, non-partisanly, and responsibly remedy it.
_________________________________________
Stop Repeat Offenders.
Don’t Re-Elect Them !
_________________________________________

_________________________________________________________________

R.V. Sometimes you get me confused are you in favor or against illegals, here you showed some heart, look, I have nothing against you and I’m in the best interest of finding a way out to the problem
R.V. Good. It is serious issue, and you may have got me all wrong. It is WRONG!, WRONG!, WRONG! to use racism, color, nationality, demonizing all illegal aliens, criminalizing all illegal aliens (most come here for work, but that does not mean crime and increased crime rates, disease, and abuse of our systems should be ignored or trivialized), fueling racism, calling them derogatory terms (i.e. wetback, etc.), or rationalizing an underclass of cheap, low-paid or sub-minimum wage labor (perpetrated by greedy employers, including small business to large corporations such as Walmart).
R.V. wrote: … but statements like: “let’s deport them all” or “let’s kill them all”, “let’s put snipers in the border”, are surreal, illogic, inhumane, just will not happen and don’t contribute to consolidate a proposition for the solution of the problem.
I could not agree more. Those statements are WRONG!, WRONG!, WRONG! (and I have never said that). We can not deport 12 million illegal aliens. But, we need to secure the border, stop the greedy employers of illegal aliens, stop the abuse and burden on our welfare, educational, law enforcement, insurance, voting, and prison systems, and deport all criminal illegal aliens, and make sure none return illegally. I realize that there are a lot of children here that have parents that are illegal aliens. Unfortunately, they need to get in line and immigrate legally like many other millions. The fact is, once laws are changed and enforced, many of the illegal aliens will leave voluntarily. Compassion is one thing, but allowing ourselves to be used and abused, allowing our laws to be disrespected, and take advantage of our education, welfare, and Medicaid systems is not acceptable. We must remember we also have a duty to American U.S. citizens that are going without because of illegal aliens. Compassion is good, but we must not fail to show compassion for our own sick, elderly, and truly needy ! , not to mention compassion for the victims and survivors of crime perpetrated by illegal aliens.
R.V. wrote: If you want to criminalize all illegal immigrants, you yourself said there is no room for more people in the jails plus not all of them are criminals, we cannot ship them out, the only and most logical way out is the ones non criminal already here should be legalized and by the way we would make money out of it, trillions of dollars, but all of these not before we have better control of the border and assure that the one legalized have no criminal history here or wherever they come from because criminals tend to repeat their action over and over.
R.V. I’ve never said I want to criminalize all illegal aliens. You’re right, it isn’t practical to deport or imprison all of them. Our prisons are already over-flowing with illegal aliens (29% of all prisoners are illegal aliens). What we should do is secure the borders, elimiate the greedy employers that illegally employ illegal aliens, and eliminate the abuse of our educational and welfare systems. Thus, many will leave voluntarily. As for the profits you mention, there is no net profit now, and it is unlikely there will be afterward. Especially if employers are forced to pay above minimum wage. It is a myth that we will collapse without illegal aliens, since there is a net cost burden to Amerian taxpayers due the numerous serious issues stemming from massive, uncontrolled, illegal immigration (e.g. abuse of our welfare, education, voting, healthcare, ER, insurance, prison, law enforcement systems, and crime, repeat deportations (e.g. some deported dozens of times), traffic accidents, disease, and our mistake of releasing them due to prison overcrowding and wide open borders, to repeat those crimes and offenses repeatedly). We should not legalize or give amnesty to illegal aliens. Remember the amnesty provided by Reagan in the 1980’s. What you see now is a result of that, and a failure to secure the borders. Want to see the current problem grow 2, 3, 4, or 10 times worse?. Give illegal aliens a legal status, and watch history repeat itself, except much worse. Posted by: d.a.n at April 12, 2006 10:27 AM
Comment #140171
These (idiot) politicians better remember who elected them, b/c “We the People” are in unisons with this illegal aliens issue. Bigtime!

rahdigly,
You are right. Most Americans (based on numerous polls) say the want the problem dealt with. But, voters appear to be more bark than bite, since this, like many serious problems facing the nation continue to go ignored, and voters allow it.

I wish slumbering voters would wake up, before it is too late, but history shows us that voters almost always have to learn the hard, painful way.

This may sound lame to many, but Education is first step, which could lead to voters doing the one simple thing they were supposed to be doing all along … the one simple, honest, responsible thing that has been right under their nose all along.
_________________________________________
Stop Repeat Offenders.
Don’t Re-Elect Them !
_________________________________________


We deserve each other!

Posted by: d.a.n at April 12, 2006 10:40 AM
Comment #140174

Dan,

Since you’re so adept at this spread sheet thing, why don’t you put together one of your ultra verbose posts on exactly how much this is all going to cost?

And please, do one that shows exactly where the money is going to come from, and how much further it will push the National Debt into the stratosphere.

No, really I’m serious, I don’t belive that either the Republicans or the Democrats are serious about this issue or have anything in mind except the next election, and using this as a talking point to bash each other about with.

Are we going to treat this issue as Kennedy and Johnson treated going to the moon?
Cause if we don’t it will become yet another boondoggle in the grand economic history of America.

Posted by: Rocky at April 12, 2006 10:50 AM
Comment #140177

Tony,

I don’t nescessasarily dissagree with what you have posted, I just think that there has to be a better way.
The demonstrations here, and some in LA in the past, have taken on an arrogant tone. I think that’s wrong.
There is no denying that these folks are actually here illegally, and they need to realize that this can’t go on forever.
We can’t make the pie any bigger.

Posted by: Rocky at April 12, 2006 11:09 AM
Comment #140180

Now I understand your plan, it is to secure the borders, which I agree (maybe not in the way your diagram shows)…

then, once controlled, illegal immigration would cease or at least be greatly reduced..

… and then force employers to play by the rules so wages go back up and the abused systems get relief, I agree to that as well..

but the part where we suffocate illegals to the point where they will be forced to leave by their own means so we don’t have to pay for their deportation is not going to happen…

.. they have been here for many years, we need their labor accept it or not, if not hispanic will be Asian or Africans, we’ll reopen the doors to other legal cheap labor newcomers maybe Irakis just like we prioritize Vietnamese after the war, have you thought of the new culture clashes that there will be…latinos are Christians like us, Chinese and Irakis or Africans have different beliefs maybe they are the best of all evils…

… and many of them if not all have children that like your own children are americans and have the right to be here, unfortunately for you and fortunately for them that law cannot be changed….

We would be the first country and it would be the first time in history a country will deny citinzenship of a child born in their piece of land for the provenience of their parents..

That would really enhance the US image in front of the world, it will make the whole world community turn their backs on us, let us not be blind our greatness is due to other countries as well….

… do you have any idea of how many people visits us, how many countries we do business with, so U.S. can condom other countries but they cannot do the same to us, why?

We are oil/ many other things dependant and we need dumb head Chavez and so we need arab nations.

I don’t know man, you would not starve your dog to death so he goes back on the streets would ya?, I would not have the heart to do that to human beins no matter if they are green. RV.

Posted by: RV. at April 12, 2006 11:23 AM
Comment #140181

I like the idea of buying mexico. and if anyone thinks we are blowing money in our war on terror. watch the towers fall everyday and then remember how many haven’t fallen latley. if we retract to our own country so will the terrorist.

smell the cafe ese.

Posted by: dr at April 12, 2006 11:31 AM
Comment #140182

Tony

You stated that this country was founded on unlimited immigration. That is not true. That was not a founding principle. It was just a matter of fact. Immigration control came along much later. From what you have said above, you either live in a glass bubble or are extremly naive. I live in AZ and daily I see the results of illegal aliens lawbreaking. Yes, I see some illegal aliens that work hard. The ones I know, which number less than 100, get paid under the table and weekly go to the check cashing offices and send home a minimum of $1000 and many times much more. This is from working at jobs Americans won’t take. I am familiar with an electronics engineer who moved to my area with the promise of a job for three years before he retired. The company reniged. He had already made his house purchase here and was stuck looking for additional work. In this area the underemployment rate is about 30%. He became one of those and accepted a job for $7 an hour washing cars. He then retired on schedule. Had he been able to get one of those better paying jobs for his last three working years it would have been correct. But the reason for the 30% underemployment rate is that businesses hire illegal aliens cheaper and because they are paid cash money, no tax withholding is taken out, no SS paid out, and higher net profit for the company, and less money going into the local economy. The higher profit for the local business is not probably not recycled into the community.

That is the exact reason that business must verify absolute identification and if they knowingly hire illegal aliens, the rath of the law should be brought upon them and they should be shut down. They exist for their own greed. They become white collar mafia. They work unknowingly or maybe in some cases knowingly with the Mexican Mafia. This is serious business and we need legislators and other leaders who will rise to the top and do the right thing and resolve this ugly problem. Until that happens you can do your own choosing of the day that will more than repeat 9/11 and you will find that the open borders will play a very large role in that dooms day event. It is not if, but when will it happen.

Posted by: tomh at April 12, 2006 11:32 AM
Comment #140185

Tomh,
I’m confused-You say that illegal aliens are stealing Engineering jobs? And that they are being paid very low cash wages, but that they go to check cashing places (checks=records=not under the table) and can send home $1000 a week? I wish I made that kind of money (especially when you consider the fees from those check cashing places)!

I think you have some good points, but it’s just a little confusing.

Posted by: Brian Poole at April 12, 2006 12:10 PM
Comment #140191
R.V. wrote: I don’t know man, you would not starve your dog to death so he goes back on the streets would ya?, I would not have the heart to do that to human beins no matter if they are green. RV.

Good point.
OK, we, the U.S. tax payers, can pay for the deportation of illegal aliens if they can’t afford it, and they volunteer to be deported.
I’m not for using force to deport illegal aliens, unless they have committed felonies (not merely immigration violations, but serious crimes).

As for whether we need a cheap-labor underclass, we will have to agree to disagree. Many studies show the net cost burden of illegal aliens is a net loss to American tax payers.

Rocky,
What you

Rocky wrote: Dan, Since you’re so adept at this spread sheet thing, why don’t you put together one of your ultra verbose posts on exactly how much this is all going to cost? And please, do one that shows exactly where the money is going to come from, and how much further it will push the National Debt into the stratosphere.

Rocky,
From the tone of your post, you sound upset? Or incredulous?
You might believe it is merely stubborness, but it is much more than that. Let’s leave the personal stuff out of it.

Also, recognize, I am not doing myself any favors at all by trying to show the net negative impact of massive, uncontrolled, illegal immigration, because many now call me a racist, xenophobe, hard-hearted, hateful, fear-mongering, etc.
It is tempting to just lay low on this issue, like a lot of people do, or take the perceived benevolent, compassionate path (but forget compassion for the negative impacts on their fellow U.S. citizens, and refuse to understand the realities of massive, uncontrolled illegal immigration).

That’s OK. I refuse to cower as many Americans have whenever insists the position is rooted in racism, xenophbia, cruelty, or lack of compassion. I’ve heard it all. All of the lame race baiting, name calling, and avoiding the real issues will not deter me in the least. But, it is good for those that challenge the facts, because it give me a platform and increased opportunities to educate voters. Votes need to know. Just the facts. I don’t have any patience for those that try to inject racism and hate mongering into the debate.

Rocky,
As for the data, here is a portion (see the section: LAWS, ENFORCEMENT, and BALANCE of POWER of my One-Simple-Idea website, cis.org, and GAO reports for more data):


  • The High Cost of Cheap Labor (source: cis.org) Net cost per illegal alien household per year (in year 2004) is over $2,736 , which accounts taxes paid by illegal aliens, but does not even include the cost of the burden of increased crime rates (crimes that should have never occurred), burden on education, hospital, ER, law enforcement, deporation, and prison systems.


  • Why Health Care Is So Costly

Rocky,
That is a tiny tip of the iceberg.
I could go on for hours (weeks perhaps), but that is sufficient.
If you disagree with it, that’s OK.
We can simply agree to disagree.

Rocky,
There is no comprehensive reports that you ask from me, but the costs calculated for only a few things sufficiently proves the net loss. There is no credible evidence whatsoever to trivialize or disqualify the overwhelming amount of data, reports, and evidence that illegal aliens are a large net loss to American tax payers. Some call it a wash (to be safe), but that is not accurate. The cost is very large, and the total cost does not evern account for some things that are very hard to measure, such as:

  • cost of one person murdered every 86 hours by an illegal alien (source: GAO-5646R).
  • cost of people maimed and killed by illegal aliens without drivers licenses or auto insurance

  • cost of disease (drastic increases in TB, Hepatitis A, leprosy, etc.); one illegal alien alone, in CA. spread a resistant strain of TB to 59 other people.
  • cost of the burden on our public schools
  • cost of the burden on our law enforcement and prison systems, and repeated deportations (some times, dozens of times)

  • cost of increased insurance premiums for illegal aliens that don’t have auto insurance and can not pay for the damage and injuries they cause.

  • cost of voting illegally in our elections;

  • cost of abuse of welfare, Medicaid, Social Security, and other public services


I believe what I believe until evidence and facts lead me to believe otherwise. That is only logical. On some issues, a conclusion is impossible when there is insufficient data. However, I’ve been researching this issue for quite some time, and there is a lot of bad data and myths flying around, and it is not easy for the lay person to know what the truth is. But if you analyze it intelligently and objectively, as closely as I have, you would probably arrive at the same conclusion.

No, really I’m serious, I don’t belive that either the Republicans or the Democrats are serious about this issue or have anything in mind except the next election, and using this as a talking point to bash each other about with.
I couldn’t agree more.
Are we going to treat this issue as Kennedy and Johnson treated going to the moon? Cause if we don’t it will become yet another boondoggle in the grand economic history of America.
Probably. Democrats want votes. Republicans want cheap labor. Slumbering Voters are asleep at the wheel, and they’d better wake up soon, or we will all be losers, including illegal aliens. Posted by: d.a.n at April 12, 2006 12:54 PM
Comment #140192

Rocky, … more …

Posted by: d.a.n at April 12, 2006 12:59 PM
Comment #140194

Gee, I wish I could copy and paste reams of the same thing over and over again in almost every subject.

Posted by: womanmarine at April 12, 2006 1:01 PM
Comment #140197

Dan,

“From the tone of your post, you sound upset? Or incredulous?
You might believe it is merely stubborness, but it is much more than that. Let’s leave the personal stuff out of it.”

Perhaps you took my jibe as personal, perhaps I was too subtle, and maybe my remarks were too toungue in cheek. Nothing personal was meant. I refuse to use emoticons.
My post was only to point out that you are being verbose and repetitive, and though your research is impecable (that was a compliment BTW), you seem to be missing the big picture.

Regardless of how much money the illegals are costing America in whatever form, the price of what is being proposed is above and beyond that.
It doesn’t matter if you have a negative cash flow if whatever solution you adopt requires even more money in astronomical amounts that you don’t have.

Posted by: Rocky at April 12, 2006 1:14 PM
Comment #140198
That is the exact reason that business must verify absolute identification and if they knowingly hire illegal aliens, the rath of the law should be brought upon them and they should be shut down. They exist for their own greed.
Absolutely. We are importing poverty, and then insuring they remain an underclass.

Not not even paid minimum wage.

How greedy is that?

And, look at the politicians that support that greed.

Have you visited S.C. lately?

Except for Washington, D.C., South Carolina (along with many border states) has the highest violent crime rate in the U.S., and the skyrocketing crime wave is due to illegal aliens.

Senator Lindsey Graham said: “illegal aliens contribute to the economy and take difficult jobs such as landscaping”.
Senator Lindsey Graham also said: “as a golfer, I probably benefit from their labor.”

Senator Lindsey Graham (D-SC):

  • Senator Lindsey Graham (D-SC) Voted: YES on extending Immigrant Residency rules. (May 2001)
  • Senator Lindsey Graham (D-SC) Voted:Voted YES on more immigrant visas for skilled workers. (Sep 1998)
  • Senator Lindsey Graham (D-SC) Voted yes on motion to pass the BILL that would extend by four months a law allowing some immigrants to remain in the country while pursuing legal residency.

How revealing is that?
But, he doesn’t even sound certain about it?
You’d think the voters of South Carolina would be upset about this, but watch … they’ll probably re-elect him like that always do for the last 14 years. DOH!
_________________________________________
Stop Repeat Offenders.
Don’t Re-Elect Them !
_________________________________________

Posted by: d.a.n at April 12, 2006 1:28 PM
Comment #140203

Dan,

Do you understand that the US/Mexican border is nearly 2,000 miles long?

Do you further understand that there are fewer than 30 commercial border crosspoints?

Do you understand that the cost of this “fence” and deportation undertaking will dwarf any costs we are incuring because of the illegals?

Do you understand that we don’t have the money to do this?

Posted by: Rocky at April 12, 2006 1:38 PM
Comment #140206

Dan,

I have one other question.

Do you understand that the concept of building a wall to keep out invaders has been tried before?

It was built with cheap labor and it still nearly bankrupted the country.

It was called the Great Wall of China. It was impractical then, and it didn’t really work.

Posted by: Rocky at April 12, 2006 1:49 PM
Comment #140207

d.a.n.

…do you further understand that Mexico’s economic position is almost entirely of OUR making? …look up the Bucareli agreement circa 1923.

RGF

Posted by: RGF at April 12, 2006 1:54 PM
Comment #140211
Rocky wrote: Regardless of how much money the illegals are costing America in whatever form, the price of what is being proposed is above and beyond that. It doesn’t matter if you have a negative cash flow if whatever solution you adopt requires even more money in astronomical amounts that you don’t have.

Rocky,
I understood your point perfectly, and thought I addressed it by demonstrating how we could do it economically with resources we already have.
Sorry, but I just don’t agree with it.
Here is why

Rocky,
Do you know what the interest on the National Debt is per day? $1 billion.
Do you know what the U.S. borrows per day? $1 billion.
Do you know what the U.S. spends on pork-barrel, graft, waste, and corporate welfare per year? $27.3 billion in 2005. $29 billion scheduled for 2006.
Do you know what the U.S. the Iraq war costs per month ? About $5 billion per month.
Do you know what the U.S. wastes per year with all of the waste of bloated government? It is untold $billion.
And, state governments have waste too.
I wonder how much government pays annually to farmers to plower under their crops, or dump milk, to artificially affect supply and demand?
Just look at the cost of this nonsense.

Rocky,
Just cutting a small part of the pork-barrel would pay for the border security. Especially since we already have the resources.
We already have the employed personnel.
What good is 2.6 million troops, reserves, and guard if we can’t use a mere 1% for border and port security?

Also, there will be a huge savings realized by eliminating the net drain caused by illegal aliens.

Sorry, but to me, the argument that border security is too expensive is a HUGE myth.

Also, what is the cost of all of the following?

  • increased crime rates;

  • burden on education systems;

  • burden on healthcare systems; increased spread of diseases;

  • burden on hospital systems;

  • burden on welfare systems; 32% of illegal aliens are on welfare;

  • burden on Social Security system; fake Social Security number;

  • burden on Medicaid system;

  • burden on border patrol systems; ever increasing numbers are needed;

  • burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;

  • burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;

  • burden on prison systems; 29% of those in state and federal prisons (Sep-2004) are illegal aliens;

  • burden on voting systems; voter fraud;

The military can and should secure the borders and coasts, because national security and defense is the basic purpose of the military.

Securing our borders, the right of any sovereign nation, is not isolationism or xenophobia. It is simply national security, defense, and common sense. Massive, uncontrolled illegal immigration is a recipe for disaster.

The rights of foreigners, that illegally trespass our borders, do not trump the rights of a sovereign nation to secure their own border. The U.S. is not for the public use of the rest of the world no more than your home is for the public use by anyone that isn’t invited. We must enforce the existing laws and prosecute those that illegally employ illegal trespassers.

Illegal aliens are burdening our educations systems, healthcare systems, law enforcement systems, insurance systems, driving about without automobile insurance, and bringing disease and crime with them.

The primary purpose of government is to provide for the national defense. That is the purpose of the military. But, irresponsible government often misuses the military, and neglects the illegal aliens pouring across the borders. Republicans want cheap labor and Democrats want votes. So the government does nothing.

A biometrics IDentification system, patrols, helicopters, unmanned aerial vehicles, remote cameras, radar, laser, sonar, thermal, seismic, and other sensors and technology could greatly enhance the ability to secure the borders also. And, the Coast Guard could patrol the coast lines. What good is a massive armed forces of 2.6 million (active military, Guard, and Reserves) if we don’t even use a small percentage (less than 1%) of the troops to protect our nation’s borders?

See? It is not as far fetched as some want you to believe it is, it would use resources we already have, it would not be that expensive, and it would make the nation safer. There are common-sense solutions. Don’t believe the lame excuses or false claims that it is too difficult. It is not.

Consider this. You would not let an uninvited stranger come into your home, eat your food, and make themselves at home?

No? Of course not. Then why would you allow uninvited strangers to illegally enter your community to use your schools, hospitals, jobs, welfare, Social Security, Medicare, drive about with no drivers’ license or auto-insurance, and fraudulently vote in you elections?

Countless polls show that most Americans want the flood of illegal aliens trespassing our borders stopped. Countless reputable studies show uncontrolled illegal immigration causes chaos and social disorganization. So, don’t be deterred by those that support or make excuses for illegal aliens. Most are hypocrites, because they don’t want those aliens to come live with them. They are of that group of people that believe the myth that we can all live at the expense of everybody else.
_____________________________

RGF,
Yes, our government screwed this up royally, and greedy employers lured illegal aliens to our nation, and pushed the cost onto tax payers.

That is why we should be gentle.
We should pay for their deportation costs for those volunteering to leave, and allow the rest to return to their homeland, secure the borders, prosecute greedy employers of illegal aliens, and disallow the abuse of our school, welfare, Medicaid, and numerous other systems.

That is more than fair.
Remember, you should also show compassion for your fellow American tax payers, who go without, because illegal aliens are abusing our systems.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 12, 2006 2:05 PM
Comment #140212

Dan,

Have you ever heard of the Posse comitatus act?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act#Homeland_Security

“TITLE 6 CHAPTER 1 SUBCHAPTER VIII Part H Sec. 466. Congress finds the following:

Section 1385 of title 18 (commonly known as the Posse Comitatus Act) prohibits the use of the Armed Forces as a Posse comitatus to execute the laws except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress.
Enacted in 1878, the Posse Comitatus Act was expressly intended to prevent United States Marshals, on their own initiative, from calling on the Army for assistance in enforcing Federal law.
The Posse Comitatus Act has served the Nation well in limiting the use of the Armed Forces to enforce the law.
Nevertheless, by its express terms, the Posse Comitatus Act is not a complete barrier to the use of the Armed Forces for a range of domestic purposes, including law enforcement functions, when the use of the Armed Forces is authorized by Act of Congress or the President determines that the use of the Armed Forces is required to fulfill the President’s obligations under the Constitution to respond promptly in time of war, insurrection, or other serious emergency.
Existing laws, including Title 10, Chapter 15 (commonly known as The Insurrection Act), and The Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act (Title 42, Chapter 68), grant the President broad powers that may be invoked in the event of domestic emergencies, including an attack against the Nation using weapons of mass destruction, and these laws specifically authorize the President to use the Armed Forces to help restore public order.”

Posted by: Rocky at April 12, 2006 2:12 PM
Comment #140214
We can’t make the pie any bigger.
Exactly. But, we also owe a loyalty, first, to our fellow Americans who are suffering and dying due to illegal aliens. Los Angeles ERs and hospitals are over-run with illegal aliens (most that don’t pay) while U.S. citizens go without (and die). U.S. citizens go without because 32% of all illegal aliens receive welfare. U.S. tax payers pay a huge price for the loss of life, crime, and cost of law enforcement and prison due to illegal aliens (29% of all prisoners are illegal aliens). Posted by: d.a.n at April 12, 2006 2:17 PM
Comment #140215

D.a.n.,
“Most Americans (based on numerous polls) say the want the problem dealt with. But, voters appear to be more bark than bite, since this, like many serious problems facing the nation continue to go ignored, and voters allow it.”


I don’t think the voters are the problem at all; they have plenty of bite, it’s the lazy a$$ politicians that are ignoring the voter. In fact, they’ve been this way for a while; check out the dates; some of them go as far back as 1993.

http://www.npg.org/factsheets/imm_americans_spoken.html


Posted by: rahdigly at April 12, 2006 2:20 PM
Comment #140216
Rocky wrote: Dan, Have you ever heard of the Posse comitatus act?

Yes. That is a red herring.
The easy way around that is to merely increase the existing Border Patrol.

And, I’m sure border states will be more than happy to reconsider the Posse Comitatus Act.

Either way, there are many ways to work around such technicalities.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 12, 2006 2:21 PM
Comment #140217

Dan,

Fine.

Unlike you I live in the real world where our elected officials, with the blessings of their constituents eat pork for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.
I also live in a world where my President couldn’t spell veto if you spotted him the vet.

Hey, you may get your wish, stranger things have happened.

I hope you’re not holding your breath.

Posted by: Rocky at April 12, 2006 2:25 PM
Comment #140218

Rocky,
BTW, it does not outrule the possibility …


The Posse Comitatus Act has served the Nation well in limiting the use of the Armed Forces to enforce the law.
Nevertheless, by its express terms, the Posse Comitatus Act is not a complete barrier to the use of the Armed Forces for a range of domestic purposes, including law enforcement functions, when the use of the Armed Forces is authorized by Act of Congress or the President determines that the use of the Armed Forces is required to fulfill the President’s obligations under the Constitution to respond promptly in time of war, insurrection, or other serious emergency.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 12, 2006 2:25 PM
Comment #140219

Dan,

Think about what you just wrote.

It takes an Act of Congress.

Need I say more?

Posted by: Rocky at April 12, 2006 2:28 PM
Comment #140221
Rocky wrote: Unlike you I live in the real world where our elected officials, with the blessings of their constituents eat pork for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

Rocky,
There is a distinction between what is reality and what is right and wrong. Reality is not always fair. What we are discussing here are problems and solutions. I personally doubt this issue (illegal immigration), along with most of our pressing problems will ever be solved in my lifetime. What I say is the right solution (in my mind) and what I actually think will happen are completely, two different things. So, to imply I live in a fantasy world is inaccurate.

Rocky wrote: Hey, you may get your wish, stranger things have happened. I hope you’re not holding your breath.
Well OK. But I hope you’re not going away mad simply because we disagree. I have not disrespected you. You asked me questions, posted arguments, and I merely answered them honestly. We may disagree, and agree to disagree? Who could ask for more? Posted by: d.a.n at April 12, 2006 2:34 PM
Comment #140222
Dan, Think about what you just wrote. It takes an Act of Congress. Need I say more?

Rocky, Like I said above, what is right, and what Congress actually does, are two different things.
I agree completely.
It’s extremely unlikely (in our lifetime) that congress will ever do anything in a hurry but vote themselves a rai$e and some more cu$hy perk$ .

Only the voters can fix it now, but they too are asleep at the wheel as they approach the edge of the cliff.
_________________________________________
Stop Repeat Offenders.
Don’t Re-Elect Them !
_________________________________________

Posted by: d.a.n at April 12, 2006 2:38 PM
Comment #140223

Dan,

Don’t make the mistake of taking anything I have posted to you personally.
You have your views, I have mine.
Some of what I have written is in jest, and I hope that you can make that distinction.
I do truely understand the problems raised by the presence of the “illegals”. I also understand that it ain’t gonna be solved tommorrow, or even next week.
I admire your veracity, though sometimes I think that your passion is misplaced.
We don’t really disagree on the problem, but your solutions seem mighty unworkable, and honestly, I don’t have a better answer.
Throwing money at the problem has never really worked well in the past.

Posted by: Rocky at April 12, 2006 2:42 PM
Comment #140226

Don’t worry Rocky.
I’m not upset, mad, or hurt.
After reading read your posts for years, I don’t care what anyone else says … you’re OK.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 12, 2006 2:48 PM
Comment #140227

Well, thanks Dan.

We’re all ok here……..

Well,,, you get my point.

Posted by: Rocky at April 12, 2006 2:54 PM
Comment #140238

Rocky,
“Throwing money at the problem has never really worked well in the past.”


The problem isn’t throwing money at the problem; it’s actually enforcing the law, that’s all it (truly) is. And it’s Bull$hit! Just about everyone of our (LAWMAKERS) has a law degree and they won’t even enforce our Sovereignty laws for our border.


By the way Rock, I’ve been trying to answer you on the money issue (backed up w/ links) since last night; however, each time I sent it, it kept saying that they are reviewing the post and I don’t have to re-post it. Anyway, just thought you should know.

Posted by: rahdigly at April 12, 2006 3:32 PM
Comment #140248

rahdigly,

“By the way Rock, I’ve been trying to answer you on the money issue (backed up w/ links) since last night;”

Just post them one at a time and they should go through.

I am however unwavering in my assessment of the distances we would need to cover to close the southern border.
Let’s see a chain link fence at aprox. 2000 miles or 10,560,000ft, with posts say 10 feet apart, we want it really strong, and that would take 1,056,000 posts.
How many cubic yards of concrete is going to take to support those posts?
How many cubic yards of dirt must be moved in order to accomidate the fence?
How tall would you want the fence?
20ft, ok, that’s 211,200,000 square feet of chainlink fencing.
Let’s not forget cross bracing and razor wire on the top.
Will that be cash or charge, and will you take it with you or will it be delivered?
Who’s going to build the fence?
Halliburton?

Look I am truely sorry if this all seems a little simplistic but the undertaking we’re talking here about is astronomical.
It’s going to take years just to aquire the fencing and I’m only talking about chain link.

Posted by: Rocky at April 12, 2006 4:08 PM
Comment #140249

Oh, I forgot to add a few things.

Meanwhile we still need to rebuild New Orleans, and oh, BTW, we are still fighting the war on terror. Those costs need to be figured into our budget as well.

Posted by: Rocky at April 12, 2006 4:15 PM
Comment #140250

Dawn:

Interesting bait and switch in the introduction of your article.

It is understood that the majority of illegal immigrants residing in our Nation are law abiding people trying to make a better life for themselves and their families. What about the rest? How is our Government going to prevent the criminals from becoming new citizens? It’s bad enough that many ‘bad apples’ hanging out on our streets are here illegally. We don’t need to make them citizens. No Amnesty!

You start out by saying that the majority of illegal immigrants in America are law-abiding people. Then you talk about weeding out the bad apples. Then you amazingly jump directly to the conclusion that there should be no amnesty for any illegal immigrants, law-abiding or otherwise.

Perhaps it’s escaped your notice, but Amnesty would not forgive illegals for crimes committed here in America, it would only forgive them of a single crime: coming here illegally in the first place. Thus, your conclusion of “no amnesty” would not affect the criminals you claim your focus is on, but would in fact only affect those law-abiding illegals you admit are only trying to find a better life for themselves and their families. This is in drastic contrast to the focus of your article on illegals engaged in criminal acts and international organized crime/gangs.

Posted by: Jarandhel at April 12, 2006 4:16 PM
Comment #140253
By the way Rock, I’ve been trying to answer you on the money issue (backed up w/ links) since last night; however, each time I sent it, it kept saying that they are reviewing the post and I don’t have to re-post it. Anyway, just thought you should know. Posted by: rahdigly at April 12, 2006 03:32 PM

rahdigly,
I think there is a one link limit.
If you use a showthis text description, you can have two or three links.
Otherwise, you get that message you mentioned.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 12, 2006 4:25 PM
Comment #140256

rahdigly,

I am going to poke some fun at Dan’s fence idea.

My above assessment was for 1 chain link fence.
Dan’s design calls for two fences with a road between, and two ditches with razor wire placed on the outsides.
My simplistic evaluation accounts only some parts and no machinery and no labor, AND, no security for the laborers.
Granted the Great wall of China is almost 2,000 miles longer and is made of stone, but it took nearly 1,800 years to complete to it’s present form.

I really don’t think we have that long.

Posted by: Rocky at April 12, 2006 4:41 PM
Comment #140262

I think we should immediately draw up plans for a tatical nuclear strike. Besides, that’ll make the cost of buying Mexico go WAY down.

Posted by: Jack Mohammedoff at April 12, 2006 5:19 PM
Comment #140264

Dawn, I worked with a girl who came from El Salvador. She told me about walking over dead bodies to go to school. You think that might have had somethng contributory is the development of gangs like MS-13?

Posted by: Jack Mohammedoff at April 12, 2006 5:22 PM
Comment #140267

Rocky,

How many interstate, state, and county roads crisscross this nation?
How many miles do you think they all add up to?
How many miles of new highway are laid each year?
How many miles of tunnels exist in the U.S. ?
How many miles of bridges exist in the U.S. ?
How many miles of rail systems criss cross the U.S. ?
How many miles of power lines and communication cables exist in the U.S. ?
Did you know there’s a tunnel below the ocean between Enland and France? : )

Rocky, this is the 21st cetury.
That security fence and road is extremely miniscule. Extremely.

A wall (e.g. like the wall of China) is a total, unnecessary waste, and completely impractical. That’s a clever way to win the argument, and it might work with some, but not me.

All that is needed is the fence system shown above, along with patrols, surveillence, cameras, siesmic, thermal, and motion sensors.

It’s that system, and a tiny amount of what is spent on pork-barrel, graft, and waste would pay for it. Personnel are already paid (e.g. Border Patrol, military, guard, and reserves). The personnel issue is simple, because a mere 1% of employees already within the government can patrol the borders. A mere 1% of 2.6 million military, guard, and reserves is 26,000 which is enough for a border patrol person every 1218 feet along both U.S./Canadian and U.S./Mexico borders.

Rocky,
Do you not really know how pathetically easy a road and fence is to install?

The U.S. / Mexico border fence could be done in a few months.

Questions ?

Seriously, Rocky, I assure you that the engineering aspects of a fence, road, and surveillence are quite simple, and inexpensive. I am an engineer with a background in robotics, machine tools, construction, electronics, monitoring, surveillence, sensors, GPS, visual pattern recognitionk, marine systems, electrical, electronics, software and hardware development).

I believe you either percieve or are trying to make something very simple seem very complex.

The most difficult challenge is convincing slumbering voters to make common sense decisions (for all involved), or continue whine and let politicians crap all over them.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 12, 2006 5:30 PM
Comment #140269

“You stated that this country was founded on unlimited immigration. That is not true. That was not a founding principle. It was just a matter of fact. Immigration control came along much later. From what you have said above, you either live in a glass bubble or are extremly naive. “

Wow - now that’s an academic twist if I’ve ever heard one. Come on, I never said it was a “FOUNDING PRINCIPLE.” I said our nation was build on immigrants, obviously it was. That is the reality that has made this country great.

It’s not on some paper, or written under some statue… oh yea, wait a minute:

“Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me:
I lift my lamp beside the golden door.”

Ah hell, it’s only a piece of art… what can it mean.

Posted by: tony at April 12, 2006 5:51 PM
Comment #140276

d.a.n.,

I’d you to REALLY consider the cost of the fence you advocate for so vigorously.

*increased cost of wine FROM OUR OWN PRODUCERS
*increased cost of fruits and vegitables FROM OUR OWN COUNTRY
*SIGNIFICANTLY increased cost of newly built homes and improvements to existing ones.
*increased cost of road maintenance and public works programs to improve all kinds of public infrastructures
*increased costs for paper products, shipping and distribution all over OUR OWN COUNTRY.
*COLLAPSE of AMERICAN owned businesses in the area of farmers markets, sales and distribution.

…just to point out a few.

And then…even if we survive these consequences with a still vigorous economy, we will cause ABJECT ECONOMIC RUIN and possibly FAMINE to our neighbor to the South. …and you what that means? …It means they will have an even GREATER INCENTIVE AND NEED to get to this side of the border. They will tunnel, swim, build gliders or whatever it takes to keep from dying from OUR STUPIDITY AND GREED!!!

Is this a solution for ANYTHING? Will this accomplish anything but ANARCHY, in your mind?

RGF

Posted by: RGF at April 12, 2006 6:48 PM
Comment #140277
Theodore Roosevelt’s ideas on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN in 1907. “In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person’s becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American…There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag… We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language… and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.” Theodore Roosevelt 1907


Posted by: Weary Willie at April 12, 2006 6:51 PM
Comment #140281

Dan,

“I believe you either percieve or are trying to make something very simple seem very complex.”

No offence meant, but simplicity has very litle to do with the sheer miles and miles of fence that would be required to “secure the border”.

Logistics will be the bugaboo on this project. Manufacturing the product and then getting the product to the locations is what is going to be the issue, and if you plan not to secure the whole border all 2,000 miles of it, surely people will fild the hole in the security and exploit it.

“How many miles of new highway are laid each year?”

The finishing touches were put on I-10 though Phoenix 10-15 years ago.

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/programadmin/interstate.html

“Planning for what is now known as the Dwight D. Eisenhower National System of Interstate and Defense Highways, commonly called “The Interstate System,” began in the late 1930’s. The Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1938 called on the Bureau of Public Roads (BPR), the predecessor of the Federal Highway Administration (FHWA), to study the feasibility of a toll-financed system of three east-west and three north-south superhighways. The BPR’s report, Toll Roads and Free Roads, demonstrated that a toll network would not be self-supporting. Instead, the BPR’s report advocated a 26,700-mile interregional highway network.”

Dan this took decades to build. Granted we are talking about a mostly straight line with the fence, but look at the real estate that we are traversing.

This is going to be a project of Biblical proportions.

Again these posts weren’t meant to disparage your opinion. I am just trying to point out the scope of what you propose.


Posted by: Rocky at April 12, 2006 7:32 PM
Comment #140287

Rocky,

You bring up a good point. A VERY good point. I am from the Southwestern part of our country and I can tell those out there who may not realize…We are talking about a border that is mountainous (Big bend, in Texas), riverrine (The Rio Grande), High dry dessert (New Mexico and Arizona as well as California). The fence would ONLY be a band-aid type fix. It could be no better than fixing your car with duct tape. The expense of maintaining it in pristine condition compared with the effectiveness of the fence EVEN IN SUCH A CONDITION, defeats the whole silly proposal.

The real issue is that the need is to great. The difference in economic prosperity between the sides of the border is too great. Desparate circumstances breed desparate measures and those who want to get over, under or through any barrier we put up…WILL FIND A WAY. As I said before, measure that reality against the shere ineffectiveness of the fence proposal along with the cost to erect the fence and you realize it will NEVER HAPPEN!

RGF

Posted by: RGF at April 12, 2006 8:18 PM
Comment #140288

Rocky,

Sorry, but I don’t agree that:

This is going to be a project of Biblical proportions.

Because:

  • First of all, it’s not a 2-way/4-lane super highway.

  • It is a simple two 2-way/1-lane asphalt or gravel road that can be laid in a few months.

  • Fences are very easy to erect. It is not the Wall of China.

  • the cost of the fence is a one time cost of $8 billion dollars, which is a small fraction of the $29 billion of pork-barrel in 2005; $8 billion is equal to eight days of interest on th e national debt;

  • just what Californians spend approximately $7.7 billion annually on education for illegal aliens (15% of all K-12 public school students) would easily fund the fence, road, and then some

  • WeNeedAFence.org says the cost of 200,000 border patrol would be $10 billion per year; that’s tiny compared to the combined net losses in California due to the burdens on the education, healthcare, welfare, Medicaid, law enforcement, and prison systems;

  • Also, during construction, they don’t have to contend with millions of motorists at the same time.

Rocky,
See.
Not hard at all.
Not expensive.

You really are blowing it way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way, way out of proportion. Really.

Questions ?

I’ve got go help with dinner.
Be back later to tell you how long it would take to build the fence and the road.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 12, 2006 8:20 PM
Comment #140291

d.a.n.,

Where are you from? Do you know what the country around the border looks like? Do kow how rocky and rugged the terrain is that you are proposing to build dual fences and ditches in? Even if we assume this preposterous proposal goes forward to the build stage, IT WOULD HOLD NOTHING AND NOBODY FOR MANY HUNDREDS OF MILES!!!

There are areas so rugged along the border that building supplies such as chain-link fencing would have to be carried in on human backs! (normally the kind of job we give to the undocumented workers). There are areas where even that would not be enough. How are you going to build fences and ditches in the Chisos mountains? HOw are you going to build anything non-porous along the rugged and rocky areas along the Rio Grande near Eagle Pass and Del Rio, Texas? Do you really thing such fence in these kinds of areas would hold back ANYONE AT ALL?

…and that’s even before asking the question I put out there earlier: What’s the REAL cost of a fence even if it WORKED?!?!

The whole proposal is NOT a project of biblical proportions, IT’S A FOOL’S ERRAND!

The whole thing is nothing short of preposterous. The shere waste of time and energy is mind boggling. WE should spend our time considering real proposals rather than this one which we can reject out hand without any further waste of time, breath or effort on the issue.

RGF

Posted by: RGF at April 12, 2006 8:37 PM
Comment #140294

Dan,

Yeah, I’ve got plenty of questions, starting with why is www.weneedafence.org only an advertisement for Home Depot et, al?

Since I wasn’t able to find the facts where you sent me, here we go.

“the cost of the fence is a one time cost of $8 billion dollars,”

Where does this figure come from?

Does include the labor to build the fence?

Does it include all the study groups that will be nescessary to plan the fence?

Does it include an environmental impact statement?

Who will manufacture the fence, and where?

Who will build the project?

Is this a union or a non union job?

Do you realize that government projects usually have cost overruns?

Who will maintain the fence, including the cameras, motion sensors, and the road?

Will this fence cover the whole distance?

Will there be lighting for the road?

If so, where will the power come from?

If we are talking solar who will maintain it?

Let’s start there and see what we come up with.

Posted by: Rocky at April 12, 2006 8:46 PM
Comment #140297

No fences, roads or ditches are ever going to be “One time costs.”

And no fence is possible in many areas where our border with Mexico runs. At least not without it being un-anchored, unstable and hopelessly porous and inefficient.

That’s just reality.

RGF

Posted by: RGF at April 12, 2006 8:59 PM
Comment #140299

US, Canadian police bust human smuggling ring

By Allan Dowd 44 minutes ago

U.S. and Canadian police have broken up a criminal ring that smuggled dozens of Indian and Pakistani nationals into the United States at a cost of up to $35,000 each, officials said on Wednesday.

More than Mexicans, folks!!

Posted by: womanmarine at April 12, 2006 9:12 PM
Comment #140302

Dan,

Another question.

Will this be low bid or no bid?

Posted by: Rocky at April 12, 2006 9:19 PM
Comment #140307

‘Perhaps it’s escaped your notice, but Amnesty would not forgive illegals for crimes committed here in America, it would only forgive them of a single crime: coming here illegally in the first place. …’
Posted by: Jarandhel at April 12, 2006 04:16 PM

How well do you trust the system that checks backgrounds? Do you believe Mexican authorities would not cover up any info on their ‘bad apples’ so they are able to become U.S. citizens?
The ‘Road to Citizenship’ is supposed to include a background check.
If given amnesty it means they would be citizens. Right?
That means they could not be deported. Right?
If found to have committed a crime in the U.S. we would HAVE TO keep them. Right?

Why is it we don’t deport more of the illegals in prison now? Their nations don’t want them back? It would cost more to deport them? They would just walk back over the border?
Living in our prisons is probably better than the homes some of them came from.

Posted by: dawn at April 12, 2006 9:36 PM
Comment #140322

What is this? The Rocky/RGF tag team ?
Okley, Dokley.
I’m ready for ya’ll !

; )

RGF wrote: d.a.n., Where are you from? Do you know what the country around the border looks like? Do kow how rocky and rugged the terrain is that you are proposing to build dual fences and ditches in? Even if we assume this preposterous proposal goes forward to the build stage, IT WOULD HOLD NOTHING AND NOBODY FOR MANY HUNDREDS OF MILES!!!
RGF, I’m in Dallas, TX. I know there are rugged parts around Big Bend. Roads are still possible. Ever been to Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, New Mexico, California, Montana, Nevada, etc.? They have roads criss crossing all over rugged terrain areas.
RGF wrote: There are areas so rugged along the border that building supplies such as chain-link fencing would have to be carried in on human backs!
RGF, Ever heard of a helicopter ? They are amazing flying machines. They use them all the time for all sorts of things, such as carrying supplies, water/chemicals for forest fires, people, etc. Do an internet search for “helicopter”. I think you’ll find it most educational.


RGF wrote:
(normally the kind of job we give to the undocumented workers).

RGF,
Well, that’s not a very nice thing to say. Shame on you.

RGF wrote: There are areas where even that would not be enough. How are you going to build fences and ditches in the Chisos mountains? HOw are you going to build anything non-porous along the rugged and rocky areas along the Rio Grande near Eagle Pass and Del Rio, Texas? Do you really thing such fence in these kinds of areas would hold back ANYONE AT ALL?
RGF, I’ve been to those places. Of course it will holdback aliens, because the border is also patrolled and monitored. See? It’s not that hard. I’m not sure what part you are confused about.
RGF wrote:…and that’s even before asking the question I put out there earlier: What’s the REAL cost of a fence even if it WORKED?!?!
RGF, The cost of the fence and is estimated to be $8 billion (weneedafence.com). But, let’s triple it to $24 billion. That is still minuscule and still less than the $29 billion of pork-barrel from 2005 (not to mention 2004, 2003, …)
RGF wrote: The whole proposal is NOT a project of biblical proportions, IT’S A FOOL’S ERRAND!
RGF, Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I would not get too bent out of shape or blow a gasket. Like I’ve said many times, it’s very unlikely government will ever do anything. They’ll just talk about it, stir up the $#!+ and make it stink, get everyone else whipped up into a frenzied, circular pattern of thought and behavior, and then promptly forget all of it after the November elections, without ever doing anything. Even if a BILL passed to enforce any existing laws, or new laws, they won’t be enforced. So, you see, gettin’ all worked up about this issue is what is truly a “FOOL’s ERRAND”.
RGF wrote: The whole thing is nothing short of preposterous. The shere waste of time and energy is mind boggling. WE should spend our time considering real proposals rather than this one which we can reject out hand without any further waste of time, breath or effort on the issue.
RGF, You are way, way, way, way, way, way overestimating the cost and difficulty. Estimates place the cost at $8 billion. Even if it was triple that (e.g. $24 billion), which is less than the $29 billion in pork-barrel in 2005, and it is less than the billions lost annually due to:
  • increased crime rates; 1 person murdered every 86 hours by an illegal alien;;
  • burden on education systems;
  • burden on healthcare systems;
  • burden on Centers for Disease Control and Prevention; an average of 2,000 illegal aliens come streaming across our borders daily, and one (1) illegal alien in Santa Barbara, CA. infected 56 other people with tuberculosis as reported on April 24, 2004, by the Santa Barbara Press-News, “Anatomy of an Outbreak”
  • burden on hospital systems;
  • burden on welfare systems; 32% of illegal aliens are on welfare (Jan-2004);
  • burden on Social Security system;
  • burden on Medicaid system;
  • burden on border patrol systems; ever increasing numbers are needed;
  • burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;
  • burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;
  • burden on prison systems; 29% of prisoners in state and federal prisons are illegal aliens (Sep-2004);
  • burden on voting systems; voter fraud with fake ID;
RGF wrote: No fences, roads or ditches are ever going to be “One time costs.” And no fence is possible in many areas where our border with Mexico runs. At least not without it being un-anchored, unstable and hopelessly porous and inefficient. That’s just reality.
RGF, We’ll have to agree to disagree. It is not even remotely as difficult or costly as you think. And maintenance is a piece of cake once the roads exist.

______________________________

Okley Dokley,
It’s your turn Rockly. RGF was before you.

Rocky wrote: d.a.n, Yeah, I’ve got plenty of questions, …
Good. Keep ‘em honest.
… starting with why is www.weneedafence.org only an advertisement for Home Depot et, al? Since I wasn’t able to find the facts where you sent me, here we go.
Rocky, Oh. I am so sorry. A thousand apologies. That was supposed to be WeNeedAFence.com ( not .org ). Didn’t it occur to you it might be .com instead of .org (a common mistake)?
Rocky wrote: “the cost of the fence is a one time cost of $8 billion dollars,” Where does this figure come from?
Rocky, That comes from weneedafence.com . Like I said to RGF, even if the cost of the fence is estimated to be $8 billion) were tripled to $24 billion, that is still minuscule and still less than the $29 billion of pork-barrel from 2005 (not to mention 2004, 2003, …)
Rocky wrote: Does include the labor to build the fence?
Yes
Rocky wrote: Does it include all the study groups that will be nescessary to plan the fence?
Rocky, Well, that’s a separate issue. The incompetence of the federal government is a factor in anything it does, anytime it does anything. I’m not goin’ out on any limbs as to the efficiency and competence of the federal government to manage anything. They have a predilection of screwing up just about anything they touch.

However, National Security is the primary function of the Federal government.
If the federal government can’t even perform its primary function, what good is it ? Perhaps states could do it better ? Perhaps we should expand the Minute Men organization ?

Rocky wrote: Does it include an environmental impact statement?
Rocky, Well, now you got me there, again. No tellin’ how much that nonsense could cost? Nothing the federal government does would surprise me. They couldn’t find their own butt with both hands. The government can’t do much of anything itself really. It will be contracted out. As for the impact, seriously, have you seen the current impact of illegal aliens on the regions they are crossing at? It is harming the environment. They are leaving litter everywhere. The elimination of that should be factored into the environment impact study.
Rocky wrote: Who will manufacture the fence, and where?
China, of course.
Rocky wrote: Who will build the project?
Contracted corporations. Also, states may want to assume some of the responsibility too.
Rocky wrote: Is this a union or a non union job?
Rocky wrote: Do you realize that government projects usually have cost overruns?
Like I said, even if the cost of the fence weneedafence.com estimated to be $8 billion) were tripled to $24 billion, that is still minuscule and still less than the $29 billion of pork-barrel from 2005 (not to mention 2004, 2003, …).
Rocky wrote: Who will maintain the fence, including the cameras, motion sensors, and the road?
Rocky wrote: Will this fence cover the whole distance?
Yes.
Rocky wrote: Will there be lighting for the road?
Don’t need it. They now have these really cool devices now that can see in the dark. They call it “night vision”. Neat, eh?
Rocky wrote: If so, where will the power come from?
Well, there are several ways to do that. They have these things called “power lines” that carry electricity. And, they also now have this fascinating technology callled “solar power”, which is becoming increasingly poplular.
Rocky wrote: If we are talking solar who will maintain it?
Oh! Gee, you a smart feller. You alreay thought of that didn’t you. See previous question (above).


d.a.n,
Another question.
Will this be low bid or no bid?

Hmmmmmm.
I think I’d ban Halliburton from bidding.
There should be at least three competing bids.
Afterall, It’s not really that big of an effort.
What is going on in Iraq is a much more monumental goal, which is costing about $4 billion per month, and a total of $250 billion so far, and that is minuscule compared to the interest and borrowing of $2 billion per day.

Rocky wrote: Let’s start there and see what we come up with.
Rocky, That was easy. I’m glad I could be of help. Any more questions ? Just let me know.

Want to know more?
Just visit One-Simple-Idea.com
or TheAmericanResistance.com

Posted by: d.a.n at April 12, 2006 11:04 PM
Comment #140323

TheAmericanResistance.com

Posted by: d.a.n at April 12, 2006 11:06 PM
Comment #140327

This is Dan, and not the other D.A.N. It seems like both names are being used interchangeably here. I will now go use the name Daniel instead.

I would like to say again that controlling illegal immigration is very doable. We have the resources. We cannot stop illegal immigration, but we can control and minimized it. Back in the mid 80’s, illegal aliens is estimated to be about 4 millions. Our government tried to deal with this problem by issuing the Amnesty Program (later half of the 80’s) and then to secure the border. Millions of illegals got legalized, but the promise to secure the border was not done. Basically, the border was left the way it was. About 15 years later, we now have an estimated 12 millions illegals in the country. The actual number could be higher due to nature of undocumented immigrants. What has our government learned from all this? Probably nothing, or maybe those fat cats don’t really care. By giving Amnesty to illegals and not securing our border, we are sending the wrong message. Just a simple remark from Bush back in early 2003 about issuing guest work visas to illegals boosted illegal entries across the Mexican border within a few days. Politicians needs to speak tough on illegal immigration, not pandering them. We also need to understand that legalizing 1 illegal alien, he/she will bring 10 others (family, relatives, friends) legally and illegally into the country within 5 to 10 years. Now, think about issuing Amnesty options to the 12 million illegals that are here.

As far as controlling the border, there are several contributing ways (may not have listed all).

1. Politicians needs to talk tough on illegal immigration instead of pandering.
2. A difficult wall/obstacle set up at the high point of illegal entry such as near towns. Adequate border guards there to effectively patrol. The long border along the harsh deserts can be left “open”.
3. Create border patrol posts at 100 miles (or less) intervals along the 2000 miles Mexican border, or 20 posts. Each post constantly patrol its 50 mile stretch in both directions in moving vehicles and with cameras and such along the border. Keep in mind crossing the open desert is very risky and expensive, and with constant patrol, far fewer will get through.
4. Enforce/legislate punishment toward employers hiring illegals.
5. Cut of government aids to illegals. Well, maybe not everything for humanitarian reasons.

There are other illegal immigrants from other countries as well. Along the Mexican border by far being the most serious. Illegal immigration cannot be stop, but it can be controlled. Instead of 2 millions entering a year, we have say 200,000. Illegal immigration has got out of control in the past 20 years. Politicians will not do much unless the voters speak out and demand actions. So far, the illegals and their supporters have spoken much louder.

Posted by: Daniel at April 12, 2006 11:14 PM
Comment #140333

Now Dan, I wasn’t trying to be a smart ass.

Since we’re talking about 2,000 miles of fence and cameras power has to come from multiple sources, as there will be resistence in power lines that will cause the operating voltage to drop below what the camera wants to see. Also night vision cameras aren’t cheap and they don’t sell them just anywhere, and we’re going to need a buttload of them.

The fence comes from China, go figure. Probably Chinese butter steel.
So you want a 15’ fence?
We’re going to buy 158,400,000 sq ft of steel fence from China?
As an asside, In 1997 China Steel went public and had a stock offering.
They weren’t able to sell one share.

Posted by: Rocky at April 12, 2006 11:43 PM
Comment #140335

Dan,

BTW, in the links section of the www.weneed… there talking about 2 cameras every 1/2 mile.
They also don’t seem to cite the source for the 8 bilion price tag.
They are also talking about $1.50 per foot for fencing?
That should be real strong, sarcasm intended.
Would that be sq feet or linear feet?

Dispite all this it may all be moot, it seems that Congress is backing off on the fence idea, and frankly I agree.

Dan, if the deal seems too good to be true, it usually is.

Posted by: Rocky at April 13, 2006 12:03 AM
Comment #140337

Rocky,


Keep this in mind, our GDP is what, 12 trillion dollars per year? With a current deficit at roughly 3 trillion; we could easily spend money to secure our border with a wall and more border security. Easily. It can be done.

Now, the real challenge is will it be done? And, if so, would it be enforced? Unfortuneately, we all know the answer to that one. If these lawmakers (huh!) would listen to the people, they would certainly know that is an (extremely) important issue that the American people are in full favor of.

http://www.americanpatrol.com/POLLS/ToughIA-Approach030424USA.html

Posted by: rahdigly at April 13, 2006 12:12 AM
Comment #140338


We got bamboozled again by our own politicians!
We asked for borders secure from terrorists. That’s all, a reasonable request that we should not have to demand.
SECURE THE BORDER! That’s it, that’s all. Done.
There is no discussion, no debate, no victims, no favorites.

We ask for secure borders and they give us scapegoats. They had no intentions of solving the problem from the beginning. They just needed the problem so they could wag their peckers at each other, get some camera time, and fight amongst themselves.
Politicians thrive on issues. They don’t care what it is as long as it gets press and they can argue about it. They are pandering to people who can’t even vote. I find it really unconvincing that they have any deep compassion when only a few months ago the same politicians that are addressing the hoards were demanding that employers be hammered for hiring illegals. So I have to believe that they will say or do anything that will get them some face time and is against “the other side” whether the subject is immigration or the war on terror.
The war on terror would have been over if we had not had to fight it on 2 fronts, the battlefield and Washington. But this entry is about immigration and politicians.

Up until now most of us didn’t even know there was a problem with illegals and if we did we were content to just overlook it, everyone was ok. The politicians won this round. They have us fighting amongst ourselves.
Here is the rub; when the Mexican flags came out and the demands started I knew something was wrong. All being fueled by people not even involved, just looking for anarchy. The vast number of people interested in the outcome is too many to count. Every business that uses the illegals, sells to them, provides services and profits from their labor doesn’t want anything to change. The Mexican Government damn sure doesn’t want anything to change, inspite of what he says in front of the camera. He gets the money they send home (all of that out-bound money is another problem of it’s own) and his problem population is now ours. If low income hard jobs was the key to economic strength then wouldn’t every third world rat hole be running circles around us.
The very same arguments were used when slavery was about to end.
“THE UNION WILL FALL APART !”
“THE ECONOMY WILL FAIL!”
“WHO WILL DO THE WORK?”
“WE HAVE TO HAVE THEM!”
Well the rest is history. None of this happened and I don’t see it happening this time if we don’t have illegal labor.
Then maybe our children could develop some character doing hard jobs so they can aspire to better things and move out of that job for the next generation.
What kind of assimilation can we expect from a neighbor who’s first act in the promised land was to break the law?
Now that they have been led “out of the shadows” the American people even the ones that weren’t paying attention are outraged. If we want to get technical there are a few national security issues that should be considered. Foreign nationals attempting to influence U.S. policy comes to mind.
Demand?
DEMAND THIS ^^[@uth f8@#$ (*6^% THEN GET OUT!
You have been a useful rube to many unscrupulous people.
Now we are done with you.

Posted by: R. Paul Gani at April 13, 2006 12:28 AM
Comment #140345

Rocky,

I was only trying to add a little satire.
But, I really thought you were being facetious with parts of those questions.

Our military already has tons of night vision stuff. I’ve used some myself. They aren’t that expensive, and the cost is falling fast, as always with electronics. They don’t need the military-spec. combat models.

I was kidding about the fence coming from China.
This nation makes lots of fence, although this nation is making less and less of stuff every year, while jobs in government grow by leaps and bounds (140,000 since 2000). There are more jobs in government than all jobs in manufacturing.

It’s just heavy duty chain link ordinary fence. Nothing fancy. Twelve to fifteen feet high.

I’m not sure where you came up with 158,400,00 square feet of fence. 2000 miles x 5280 feet per mile * 12 feet high = 126,720,000 square feet. For $8 billion, that is $4 million per mile. That cost sounds high to me, but still, a total of $8 billion is a drop in the bucket compared to $29 billion of pork barrel in 2005, and $14 billion lost in California alone due to burdens on the education, welfare, law enforcement, crime, and prison systems.

BTW, I’ve got a cabin in New Mexico with solar power. Works great. To add power, simly add more solar panels and batteries. It is at 8,000 feet. There are no power lines there, so solar is a good solution. There are also other good ways to generate power, such as wind turbines.
__________________________

Daniel,
That’s a good list.
The only thing that I might change is to place stations every 5 miles apart. That’s 400 stations along the U.S./Mexico border and 800 stations along the U.S./Canada border.

With a mere 1% of all 2.6 million military, guard, and reserves, that would provide 26,000 border patrollers, which would provide one border patrol person at an average of every 1218 feet apart (for both the U.S./Canada and U.S./Mexico borders; a total of 6000 miles).

The people over at WeNeedAFence.com call for 150,000 to 200,000 border patrollers, for a cost of $10 billion per year.

That sounds expensive to me, but is still a good deal, compared to the $29 billion of pork-barrel in 2005, and at least $36 billion (probably much more if you consider the cost of violent crimes) of net loss to U.S. tax payers due to problems stemming from illegal aliens.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 13, 2006 12:55 AM
Comment #140349

Dan,

I understood and was just being a nudge(sp).

“BTW, I’ve got a cabin in New Mexico with solar power. Works great. To add power, simly add more solar panels and batteries. It is at 8,000 feet. There are no power lines there, so solar is a good solution. There are also other good ways to generate power, such as wind turbines.”

The only problem with these two technologies is that they break, and that drives up the cost.

Look I think that this web site is full of good intentions, but for the most part it’s pie in the sky, meets wishfull thinking.
This is all doable, my point is how much time and money do you want to spend.

Posted by: Rocky at April 13, 2006 1:21 AM
Comment #140350

Dan,

“I’m not sure where you came up with 158,400,00 square feet of fence. 2000 miles x 5280 feet per mile * 12 feet high = 126,720,000 square feet. For $8 billion, that is $4 million per mile.”

I used 15 feet, not 12.

Posted by: Rocky at April 13, 2006 1:22 AM
Comment #140351
Rocky wrote: Dan, BTW, in the links section of the www.weneed… there talking about 2 cameras every 1/2 mile. They also don’t seem to cite the source for the 8 bilion price tag. They are also talking about $1.50 per foot for fencing? That should be real strong, sarcasm intended. Would that be sq feet or linear feet?

Rocky,
The total cost is $8 billion (that has nine zeroes).

The fence is 15 feet high.

There are 5280 feet in a mile.

There are 12 inches in a foot.

See how educational this all is? : )

The U.S./Mexico border is 1951 miles.

Therefore, the $cost per mile is $4,100,461

Therefore, the $cost per linear foot is $776.60

Therefore, the $cost per linear inch is $64.72

Therefore, that is 154,519,200 square feet of fence.

Therefore, the $cost per square foot $51.77

Rocky wrote: Dispite all this it may all be moot, it seems that Congress is backing off on the fence idea, and frankly I agree.
Rocky, I think the fence/road makes a lot of sense.

But, the federal government will most likely never do anything about it ever.
All this hoopla is just an exercise in futility.
After the November elections, it will all be forgotten.
Voters will forget about it too.
Politicians keep crappin’ all over voters, and voters keep lettin’ ‘em.

Rocky wrote: Dan, if the deal seems too good to be true, it usually is.
Those numbers and costs stated at weneedafence.com were not low. See the costs above. $4.1 million per mile is a lot, but the total of $8 billion is minuscule compared to the $29 billion of pork-barrel in 2005, and at least $36 billion of net loss to U.S. tax payers due to problems stemming from illegal aliens (probably much more if you consider the cost of violent crimes).

Sorry Rocky,
We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 13, 2006 1:27 AM
Comment #140353

Dan,

We agree on the important things.

Yes, there is a criminal element that has come across the border.
Yes, some of the illegals are taking advantage of the system.
Yes something has to be done about the securing our borders.

Do I belive that the greater percent of the illegals are honest hard working folks?
Absolutely.
Are there also a percentage of Americans that also take advantage of the system?
Hell yes!
Do I think that we should deport 12 million people?
Nope.
We agree on some and disagree on others.
See that wasn’t too hard.

Posted by: Rocky at April 13, 2006 1:36 AM
Comment #140354
Daniel wrote: They [politicians]had no intentions of solving the problem from the beginning.

Daniel,
Good points.
Yes, sadly, you are probably correct.
After the November elections, it will all be forgotten.
Voters will forget about it too.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 13, 2006 1:36 AM
Comment #140358
Rocky wrote: Dan, We agree on the important things. Yes, there is a criminal element that has come across the border. Yes, some of the illegals are taking advantage of the system. Yes something has to be done about the securing our borders. Do I belive that the greater percent of the illegals are honest hard working folks? Absolutely. Are there also a percentage of Americans that also take advantage of the system? Hell yes! Do I think that we should deport 12 million people? Nope.

Rocky, I agree completely 100% with every thing you just said in that blockquote above.

Rocky wrote: We agree on some and disagree on others. See that wasn’t too hard.

Nope. Not too hard/bad at all.
We only seem to disagree on the fence/road, cost, and practicality of it.

And, we both agree that our inept, irresponsible government will probably do nothing or next-to-nothing about this.

I think it will all be forgotten after November.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 13, 2006 1:42 AM
Comment #140359

What were we talking about?

Posted by: Rocky at April 13, 2006 1:46 AM
Comment #140360

Dawn,
As you know, I have a very Independent Political View and this is the way that I see the playing field on this issue.

First; Every American is in violation of “The Law.” Aiding in the crime even after the fact leaves no one in Society innocent. Thus, I was happy to hear that the Republicans of the House of Representatives pulled their demand to make it a felony to aid an Illegal Immigrant even after they made it to U.S. soil. Who knows maybe someone pointed out that their Bill would make it so that not even the Republicans could run for office without a Presidentail pardon.

Second; If America is going to be successful in dealing with the problem of Illegal Immigration than “We the People” need to have the names of the Agencies and Corporations who are creating this demand and the Clientele that they serve. IMHO, the easiest way to obtain that information is to have the Illegal Aliens give up their work history and how they got into the United States as the come forward to pay their fine of a $1.00 for coming on American soil without the correct papperwork.

Third, Congress and the Dept. of Commerce needs to establish a program that would replace the illegal agencies assisting people across the border with Legal Non & For-Profit Private Agencies that will allow this type of service to be done in the Light of the Courts of the Land.

Fourth; Fine every Corporation a $1.00 per Illegal hired over the last ten years and fine the American Public the amount of money they have paid in higher Social Services.

Fifth; Have the Department of Commerce compile a list of every Employer who has a job that an American will not do at the wage offered by the Employer. If a corportion or individual is not on this list and hires one of these guest workers than it is in violation of crimes against the State. Maybe the “Or Other” of a Judges hand might be a high enough Cost to make the Risk of “Looking the other way for a quick profit” disappear.

Sixth; Any person and their family appling for a Guest Worker Card has to be willing to learn how and why they need to become Economically Viable and Financially Independent. IMHO, a Saving plan that helps America’s Bottom Line would be mandated.

Seventh; Citizenship to include those allowed in due to Humanity Laws on the Books would be done on a Case by Case basis and would have to be taken into consideration of a New Immigration Bill that would see Humans from all over the world compete on a Level Playing Field for jobs.

Yes, America can and will survive this Reagan Mistake (Amnesty 86) if the Republicans can ever wake up to the fact that our Economy must be flipped. However, given the Rapitalistic Nature of some in each political party, We can only hope that the American Lower Level of Living Standard (i.e. Poverty) does not get any worse. Because as one who lived through the 70’s, I don’t see Management getting any smarter. However, the actions over this issue shows me that at least the Labor in this Nation understands the fallout from importing Cheaper Labor.

Posted by: Henry Schlatman at April 13, 2006 1:56 AM
Comment #140363
Rocky wrote: What were we talking about?

Uuhhhmmm … I don’t know.
Two men in black came to my door a few minutes ago, and now, I don’t remember anything.

But, I think it had somethin’ to do with aliens.

: )

Posted by: d.a.n at April 13, 2006 2:13 AM
Comment #140364
Henry Schlatman wrote: Who knows maybe someone pointed out that their Bill would make it so that not even the Republicans could run for office without a Presidentail pardon.
I never thought of that. Wow, we should all be in jail. : )
However, the actions over this issue shows me that at least the Labor in this Nation understands the fallout from importing Cheaper Labor.
Yes, we are importing poverty, and it is costing us several tens of billions per year. It is hard to calculate the total cost of crime, and burden on our education, hospital, healthcare, Medicare, Social Security, welfare, insurance, law enforcement, and prison systems.

We can not deport 12 million illegal aliens.
But, I am opposed to amnesty of any form, because it is not fair to the immigrants playing by the rules, and trying to immigrate legally.
Amnesty will repeat what happened after the last amnesty. It could double or quadruple the problem.

I am also opposed to work visas for cheap-labor.

We need to secure the borders, stop illegal employment, stop use of our eduation education, hospital, healthcare, Medicare, and Social Security systems, stop allowing illegal aliens from voting in our elections, and provide (at our cost) transportation for all illegal aliens that volunteer to leave the U.S.
Hence, illegal aliens will leave voluntarily if they can’t live here illegally.

That may sound hard-hearted to some people, but we also have a duty, first, to U.S. American citizens that go with out because of resources used up by illegal aliens. Especially, since 32% of illegal aliens are on welfare. And we also have a duty, first, to the huge number of victims and survivors of crime perpetrated by illegal aliens (1 person is murdered every 86 hours by an illegal alien; 29% of all prisoners are illegal aliens).

Posted by: d.a.n at April 13, 2006 2:39 AM
Comment #140376

Like I try to keep telling you Dan if only we could get it through Everybody’s Head that our Elected Officials and Political Leaders are required by “The Law” to work in such a manner that every American has the opportunity to become Economically Viable and Financially Independent in their Lifetime than maybe just maybe “We the People” will discover that the duty of every American is to show the other Citizens of the World the Path to True Freedom and that road starts at becoming Economically Viable and Financially Independent. Certainly that kind of Nation must protect its borders and National Interest of “We the Consumers.”

Posted by: Henry Schlatman at April 13, 2006 4:43 AM
Comment #140397

Interesting statistics on Fox News this morning; The unemployment rate in Mexico is 3.7% compared to 4.7% in the U.S., yet 40% of Mexicans live below the poverty level in contrast to 12% in the US. The numbers don’t lie. 40%!!!! I repeat, 40% live below poverty levels.

Corporate America and the Mexican government are the main reason for our immigration problems. One of the main intentions of NAFTA was to improve the economy of Mexico and standard of living. It didn’t happen because of the greed of American companies. They took our manufacturing jobs to Mexico, hurting our middle and lower class, and then just reaped the windfall profits without benefitting either society.

How many Americans living on the border states travel to Mexico each day to work? I would guess the number is probably pretty low because of the wage scales. The Mexican government failed its own people because it was more beholding to the corporations than the citizens who live there. Does Mexico have a minimum wage? I don’t know, but if they don’t, they should.

There are apparently enough jobs in Mexico to keep their people there, but until they are able to earn a living wage, they will continue to flow into this country to find a way to provide for families.

Posted by: Tim at April 13, 2006 10:06 AM
Comment #140399

Henry Schlatman,
I could not agree more.

To you, and a very few others, these laws and the underlying, common-sense logic are crystal clear.

I am age 48, and it wasn’t long ago, it all escaped me too. The following is verbose, but it really is very, very simple:

  • It all starts here: Most people seek security and prosperity with the least effort and pain, because of laziness. Laziness is a natural human tendency, but it is immoral to surrender to it completely.
  • Therefore, some people will cheat to obtain that security and prosperity. Cheaters are parasites that use other people for self-gain (to varying degrees).
  • People must understand how to account for this natural human desire for security and prosperity with the least effort and pain, and how some people parasitically cheat to acquire it. That is not said in malice. It is simply a fact that is perilous to ignore. Understanding it and dealing with that human factor is an essential prerequisite to any healthy society, government, or organization. When people understand that, and learn how to recognize cheaters and their clever, parasitic tactics to use others for self-gain, to more capable we will be to minimize the harm they do.
  • Work-a-day Voters don’t take the time to analyze it, too preoccupied with their own microscopic concerns, and do not take the time to “think it through” because of laziness. Seems like a vicious circle, but there is a way out of it.
  • Voters need education and understanding to account for that natural human tendency. We must account for the human factor.
  • Voters, however, will never be receptive to education until (a)Voters feel significant pain, or (b)clearly see pain is eminent, or (c)see self-gain, (d) or make a huge leap to the next level of human intelligence.
  • Voters keep shooting themselves in the foot, but don’t know what to do, because of their own ignorance, resulting from laziness, and it fuels corruption, and the ranks of the cheaters grow.
  • Voters are victims of their own laziness, lack of education, and resulting ignorance that allows parasitic cheaters to feed on voters’ ignorance. Cheaters confuse, use and abuse the Voters, cleverly divide, and distract them from substantive issues, and trick the voters to continue to empower (re-elect) the very Cheaters that use and abuse the Voters. The Cheaters are confident that the divided, disorganized, distracted voters can never form a majority to oust the incumbent Cheaters.
  • We are all shooting ourselves in the foot, because some day, it can only end badly. But, for the majority of the time, the Voters suffer the most for their own laziness, resulting in their own negligence, ignorance, and manipulation by the Cheaters that use and abuse them.
  • Voters’ , therefore, preoccupied with their own microscopic concerns, always see the truth too late, despite the fact that they are always the very one’s that suffer most from it.
  • So, it seems a lack of common sense is the problem, but it is really, once again, plain old laziness, which leads to a lack of education, which leads to a lack of understanding, which leads to their own pain and misery.
  • Voters laziness (and resulting ignorance) is why they fail to see how to do the most simple, common-sense, no-brainer, and responsible thing that is right under their nose.
  • Laziness works for Cheaters, but works against voters.
  • The irony of the Voters’ microscopic self-interest is that it sabotages the Voters’ macroscopic goals, and results in Voters being unable to do the most simple, common-sense, responsible things in their own best interest.
  • Voters have the right to vote, but fail to see that very thing that is right under their nose to peacefully force government to be responsible and accountable too. Education is the key, first step.

Then, hopefully, someday, we will understand why and how we keep shooting ourselves in the foot, and how to stop doing that. It’s really that simple, but parasitic Cheaters have tricked us into thinking it is all very complex and complicated, which are really just clever excuses for their failure to address our pressing problems that steadily grow in number and severity. There will eventually be consequences, and when it occurs, the Voters will be those that suffer the most pain and misery for their own laziness and ignorance. And, perhaps that is as is should be, if we are to ever learn from our mistakes. Until then, we all deserve each other.

Henry,
Voter Education is the first, key, step.
_________________________________________
Stop Repeat Offenders.
Don’t Re-Elect Them !
_________________________________________

Posted by: d.a.n at April 13, 2006 10:18 AM
Comment #140400
Tim wrote: Corporate America and the Mexican government are the main reason for our immigration problems. One of the main intentions of NAFTA was to improve the economy of Mexico and standard of living. It didn’t happen because of the greed of American companies. They took our manufacturing jobs to Mexico, hurting our middle and lower class, and then just reaped the windfall profits without benefitting either society.

Tim,
Good observation. See previous post.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 13, 2006 10:19 AM
Comment #140408

Last time I looked….crossing into this country not at legitimate border cross…was ILLEGAL and therefore, just the FACT that they did so makes them NOT law abiding people!!!!!!1Overstaying a legit visa is also a crime isn’t it???????!

Posted by: qat at April 13, 2006 10:52 AM
Comment #140409

One of the issues that are a possible cause for this mass migration has been a result of WTO agricultural treaties.

This link is to an interview with Anuradha Mittal a co-director of food first.

“Anuradha Mittal, a native of India, is the co-director of Food First / The Institute for Food and Development Policy. Prior to becoming co-director, she was the Institute’s policy director and coordinated Economic Human Rights: The Time Has Come!, a national campaign in the United States on growing hunger and poverty and the loss of family farms in the United States. Mittal is the co-editor of America Needs Human Rights (Food First Books, 1999). Prior coming to the United States, Mittal worked with Society for Participatory Research in Asia (PRIA), a major development group in India.”


http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Third_World/Losing_Farm.html

“Though agriculture was the carrot to lure the Third World into the WTO and other trade agreements, it has turned into the most contentious issue as the Third World is devastated by the dumping of cheap and subsidized agricultural products from the United States and the European Union.
The WTO Agreement on Agriculture (AOA) requires that countries open their economies to agricultural products. With American markets already saturated, the U.S. is aggressively pushing to open up foreign markets-with great success. Already, one out of three acres planted in the United States produces food or fiber destined for export, and one quarter of American farm sales are now exports.
While beefing up agribusiness with agricultural subsidies (the U.S. and the EU subsidize their agriculture to the combined tune of almost $1 billion a day) which are denied to the poor farmers in the South, and lowering world prices, the AOA has become a form of control of the food system that puts power squarely in the hands of export producers, large businesses and elites, at the expense of family farmers. For example, the U.S. exports corn at prices 20 percent below the cost of production, and wheat at 46 percent below cost.
MM: What has been the impact of those provisions?
Mittal: The impact has been severely felt in the Third World. For example, as a result of the removal of tariffs on agricultural products, Mexico, a country once self sufficient in basic grains, today imports 95 percent of its soy, 58 percent of its rice, 49 percent of its wheat, and 40 percent of its meat. This has resulted in Mexican corn farmers being put out of business. More than 80 percent of Mexico’s extreme poor live in rural areas, and more than 2 million are corn farmers. There is no way they can compete with subsidized American agribusiness. Everyday, an estimated 600 peasant farmers are forced off their land.”

Though I haven’t had the time to research this any further we might see this as an example of why we have so many “guests” recently.

Posted by: Rocky at April 13, 2006 10:56 AM
Comment #140410

Dan,

Don’t you ever sleep?

Posted by: Rocky at April 13, 2006 10:59 AM
Comment #140414

Yeah, when I’m not awake. : )

Posted by: d.a.n at April 13, 2006 11:15 AM
Comment #140440

d.a.n.,

Again, dan, you are missing the real point. I keep hearing this argument about how much we are loosing from the undocumented in our country and there is still no-one putting together a tally of what we gain. If we were to COMPLETELY EXCLUDE all the undocumented in this country, what about:

*increased prices for fruits, vegitables and even wine PRODUCED IN OUR COUNTRY.
*increased prices for road maintainence and clean up crews.
*increased costs for new home construction, roofing and additions to existing homes.
*increased costs for goods stored in wherehouses.
*increased costs for shipping and packaging
*Lost American owned businesses in the area of farmers markets and food distribution and marketing all over this country.


…just to name a few.

If you imagine we are SAVING money by total exclusion, then weigh these things into the equation first or you don’t have a complete picture at all.

Further, consider the fact that we put Mexico into the position they are in economically. Look up the Bucareli agreement. Consider also the Maquiladoras along the border, with American foremen and companies behhind them, who continue to do things send out their foremen to keep the young single parent women ( who have the hands the size they like) pregnant so they can’t run off and make a better life for themselves. Then they lock these women in for days on end to meet quotas while the kids (spawned by rape all to often), grow up on their own with out supervision. Then we get high and mighty about those MExicans who become criminals. The harsh facts of how we have treated our neighbors to the South would blow your mind. Their desire to come here has nothing to do with laziness or looking for a free ride. Anyone who has ever worked alongside a Mexican laborer knows they typically outwork Americans 10 to 1.

Dan, you offer no real evidence to support the idea that we are losing anything. You offer notions of losses with no estimate of gains and no real evidence of what is being lost anyway. I TELL YOU, among the undocumented, THOSE THAT CAN, PAY TAXES!! The reason is that they desparately WANT to become LEGITIMATE American citizens. I did tax preparation work along the border and I can tell you they understood the need to pay taxes in order to remain in good standing for citizenship with INS and they lined up by the hundreds every week for three and a half months prior to tax time for all the years I went down and did tax prep work.

RGF

Posted by: RGF at April 13, 2006 1:28 PM
Comment #140442

d.a.n. ,

Are you Native American?

Posted by: RGF at April 13, 2006 1:51 PM
Comment #140459

“First; Every American is in violation of “The Law.” Aiding in the crime even after the fact leaves no one in Society innocent.”


That’s it, blame us the citizens and not the real culprits; the illegals and the Politicians. Keep it up and we’ll lose this country faster than we are already losing it. Or, I should say:

Guárdelo y perderemos este país más rápido que lo perdemos ya.

Posted by: rahdigly at April 13, 2006 3:08 PM
Comment #140460
RGF wrote: d.a.n., Again, dan, you are missing the real point.
Nope. I just disagree. There’s a difference.
RGF wrote: I keep hearing this argument about how much we are loosing from the undocumented in our country…
Because it is true. Research it, or show proof otherwise (good luck).
RGF wrote: I keep hearing this argument about how much we are loosing from the undocumented in our country and there is still no-one putting together a tally of what we gain.
RGF, There is a net loss. Research it and you’ll prove it to your self. All of the excuses (e.g. cost of vegatables, clean up crews, etc.) are total myths, because they ignore the eliminate of the many tens of billions saved by U.S. tax payers for the astronomical cost of crime, and the huge burden on our education, hospital, ER, insurance, law enforcement, voting, Medicare, Social Security, universities, border patrol, and prison systems.
If we were to COMPLETELY EXCLUDE all the undocumented in this country, what about: *increased prices for fruits, vegitables and even wine PRODUCED IN OUR COUNTRY. *increased prices for road maintainence and clean up crews. *increased costs for new home construction, roofing and additions to existing homes. *increased costs for goods stored in wherehouses. *increased costs for shipping and packaging *Lost American owned businesses in the area of farmers markets and food distribution and marketing all over this country. …just to name a few.
RGF, That’s it? That’s your best argument ? That’s pretty weak. What do you think all of that would cost if Americans did those jobs? Do you think it would be more than the many tens of billions lost due to rampant crime, one person murdered every 86 hours by and illegal alien, 29% of all prisoners are illegal aliens, and the huge burden on our education, hospital, ER, insurance, law enforcement, voting, Medicare, Social Security, universities, border patrol, prison systems, and 32% of all illegal aliens receive welfare ? Hence, your assertion is not only total nonsense to imply the U.S. will crumble without illegal aliens (an under-paid under-class ; practically slave labor), but insulting to Americans. The people profitting by employing illegal aliens the most are the greedy employers of illegal aliens. They should be arrested, fined and prosecuted to the full extent of the law (which they are violating).
If you imagine we are SAVING money by total exclusion, then weigh these things into the equation first or you don’t have a complete picture at all.
RGF, I have weighed it all at great length. I still don’t agree with you. We’ll have to agree to disagree.
Further, consider the fact that we put Mexico into the position they are in economically. Look up the Bucareli agreement. Consider also the Maquiladoras along the border, with American foremen and companies behhind them, who continue to do things send out their foremen to keep the young single parent women ( who have the hands the size they like) pregnant so they can’t run off and make a better life for themselves. Then they lock these women in for days on end to meet quotas while the kids (spawned by rape all to often), grow up on their own with out supervision. Then we get high and mighty about those MExicans who become criminals. The harsh facts of how we have treated our neighbors to the South would blow your mind. Their desire to come here has nothing to do with laziness or looking for a free ride. Anyone who has ever worked alongside a Mexican laborer knows they typically outwork Americans 10 to 1.
RGF, Mexico’s problems are no reason to make them ours. Also, Americans have been generous to illegal aliens and our neighboring countries. American did not force Mexico into anything. Mexico has the fifth largest economy in the world, so they are not that poor.

Also, saying a Mexican laborer typically outworks Americans 10 to 1 is false, pure fantasy, and insulting to Americans.

RGF wrote: Dan, you offer no real evidence to support the idea that we are losing anything.
False. I have many times. You obviously have not read any of it, since my web-site is over-flowing with it. Visit it. You might learn something.
RGF wrote: You offer notions of losses with no estimate of gains and no real evidence of what is being lost anyway.
False again. See previous sentence above. You obviously haven’t researched this thoroughly.
RGF wrote: I TELL YOU, among the undocumented, THOSE THAT CAN, PAY TAXES!!
RGF, First, So your saying “I TELL YOU, …” means we should believe you? Especially when I know 50% of illegal aliens are off the books. Also, we are not talking about high incomes and vast amounts of taxes. Second, it is irrelavent, since they are illegal aliens.
RGF wrote: The reason is that they desparately WANT to become LEGITIMATE American citizens.
So? So do a lot of people from all over the planet. The pie is only so big. You ignore reality. The rights of foreigners, that illegally trespass our borders, do not trump the rights of a sovereign nation to secure their own border. The U.S. is not for the public use of the rest of the world no more than your home is for the public use by anyone that isn’t invited. We must enforce the existing laws and prosecute those that illegally employ illegal trespassers.
RGF wrote: I did tax preparation work along the border and I can tell you they understood the need to pay taxes in order to remain in good standing for citizenship with INS and they lined up by the hundreds every week for three and a half months prior to tax time for all the years I went down and did tax prep work.
So you are a tax preparer? You did work for illegal aliens? Or, legal immigrants?
RGF wrote: d.a.n. , Are you Native American?
Yes. What does it have to do with anything? I hope you are not about to play the race, color, or nationality card. I’ve heard it all:
  • we are all immigrants;
  • you are a racist ;
  • you just don’t like brown people ; what about Canada ?
  • you are using color and nationality ;
  • they are more law abiding (another myth; 29% of our all prisoners are illegal aliens); nevermind that just being here, driving without a drivers license and auto insurance is a crime; and, 32% of illegal aliens receive welfare ;
  • the U.S. would collapse without them (a total myth);

RGF,
We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
__________________
THE SOLUTION:

  • Secure the borders (with resources we already have and only 1% of the total active duty military, guard, and reserves)

  • Require enforcement of all immigration laws. Enforce the existing laws.

  • Require ALL employers to use the Social Security Verification System for ALL hires.

  • Deny ALL illegal alien births automatic citizenship. End anchor-baby blue passports;

  • Deny ALL illegal aliens a FREE K-12 education.

  • Deny ALL illegal aliens ANY and ALL ‘public benefits’.

  • Deny ALL illegal aliens driver’s licenses and in-state college tuition.

  • Deport all incarcerated criminal aliens immediately;

  • Provide transportation (free) for illegal aliens volunteering to be deported; most other illegal aliens will leave voluntarily once there is are longer any employers of illegal aliens, and no more Medicaid, Social Security, welfare, healthcare, or automatic citizenship for offspring of illegal aliens;
  • Verify ALL voter’s citizenship, before permission to vote.

__________________

But, there will never be any reforms until voters get fed-up enough to finally do the one simple, common-sense, non-partisan, no-brainer, ethical, peaceful, and responsible thing they should have been doing all along:

  • [1] vote out (or recall) irresponsible incumbents (which is most, if not all of them),

  • [2] and continue to do it,

  • [3] until the bought-and-paid-for incumbents pass some badly-needed, simple, no-brainer, responsible, common-sense reforms.

___________________

RGF,
I would not get too worked up over this.
It is very unlikely government will ever do anything.
They will just talk about it, stir up the $#!+ and make it stink, get everyone else whipped up into a frenzied, circular pattern of thought and behavior, and then promptly forget all of it after the November elections, without ever doing anything. Even if a BILL is ever passed to enforce any existing laws, or new laws, they still will not be enforced.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 13, 2006 3:12 PM
Comment #140503

d.a.n.,

Yes, we can just “agree to disagree” but I have always considered that a total cop-out.

You have still adressed the issue of how Mexico got to where they have so many with an economic need to find a home on our side of the border. Have you looked into how they got to where they are economically?

RGF

Posted by: RGF at April 13, 2006 5:55 PM
Comment #140512

d.a.n.,

Finding similarly unthorough lunatic points of view posted on other websites by other lunatics does NOT constitute evidence. It does NOT make your points any more than 2-dimensional and it does NOT SUPPORT anything. …at all. I read every link on the page you linked. NONE of those stories tell the whole truth about health care, education or any of it. Agreeing with Hannity and Limbough does not make them right or anybody who listens to them right. Where is the tally of the value the undocumented GIVE us? It’s simple economics, d.a.n. If I pay you for, say painting my fence for instance, that means I value the painted fence MORE than the money I pay you with. When I hear people complain about the presence of the undocumented in our country, why is it that nobody even tries to tally the value WE RECEIVE?

Do not think of education as an investment in the future? If you concede that it is, then why does it not make sense to you to invest in the future citizens of our country, both children and those arriving here? Do you imagine, perhaps that education is basically worthless (although it costs something anyway) and thus you would withhold it from those who will be future citizens of our country?

To this I offer the European solution: If you qualify for it, you get it based on merit. Tuition and all.

How ‘bout health care? We ALREADY pay for emergency care for all those who cannot get health care. They come pouring into our ER’s with absessed teeth that cost a fortune to deal with on an emergency basis, but could have prevented by MUCH cheaper preventive care at a regular dentist (just an example). You see, ER’s CANNOT turn people away in emergencies.

I have YET to see neocon-republican solution to ANYTHING that didn’t ultimately make things worse and cost much much more in the long run. Immigration is no exception.

What tribal nation are you a member of, d.a.n.?
I simply don’t buy that you are native american and yet don’t instantly jump at the chance to identify your heritage.

The US most assuredly IS a nation of immigrants, d.a.n. Even those of us who are native american got here by travel across the land bridge. Just first, that’s all.

RGF

Posted by: RGF at April 13, 2006 6:20 PM
Comment #140517

I think that all these lifers in our government is out of hand. Kennedys own Mass. Levin owns Mich. and so on and so. Why do they keep reElecting the same worthless politicians over and over? Its because most people vote on basics. They vote either right or left and don`t have a clue what there voting for. lets face it if you really talk to poeple they recite the talking points they hear on the bias media. lets face it people don`t want change, they want things only their way. If they`re on the left they want everyone to go around with no tolerance policy`s. political correctness, Pro choice, give away programs, and amnisty for all.and if you don`t agree with them your a racist. If they`re on the right they want everyone to go around with moral values, treating people with respect instead of political correctness. right to life, civil unions not gay marrige, they want people to be responsibale for their own needs, instead of give away programs, and illegals should come here legally and obey the laws. I think we should get things in the middle. A comprmise on both sides with new polititions.

Posted by: John at April 13, 2006 6:50 PM
Comment #140525
RGF wrote: d.a.n., Yes, we can just “agree to disagree” but I have always considered that a total cop-out. You have still adressed the issue of how Mexico got to where they have so many with an economic need to find a home on our side of the border. Have you looked into how they got to where they are economically?
RGF, So, you think anyone that disagrees with you is coping-out? So, you do not believe in an honest disagreement?

RGF,
However illegal aliens got here is largely their own doing.
I don’t see how America is more to blame.
Sure, corporatism and corpocrisy is bad, but that’s a two way street.
So, I care more about the welfare of my fellow U.S. citizens than illegal aliens. If can believe that is wrong if you like.
Sorry, RGF, I just don’t agree with you, and if you don’t like it, that’s tough.

RGF wrote: d.a.n., Finding similarly unthorough lunatic points of view posted on other websites by other lunatics does NOT constitute evidence.
RGF, So, you think anyone that disagrees with you is a lunatic.
RGF wrote: It does NOT make your points any more than 2-dimensional and it does NOT SUPPORT anything. …at all.
Sure it does. Just not to you. That’s your right. Believe what ever you want, or provide evidence to refute it (which you haven’t because you can’t).
RGF wrote: I read every link on the page you linked. NONE of those stories tell the whole truth about health care, education or any of it. Agreeing with Hannity and Limbough does not make them right or anybody who listens to them right.
Really? Wow, you must be a fast reader, and have a fast internet connection, since there are over 100 links. By the way, I’m not fans of Hannity or Limbaugh, or much of anyone. Who are your heroes? That would probably be most revealing.
RGF wrote: Where is the tally of the value the undocumented GIVE us? It’s simple economics, d.a.n.
RGF, I already showed it to you. Look above. Besides, don’t you know how to do a simple internet search? It is not my job to educate the ignorant. OK, OK, OK, I’ll give you some help, since you seem unable to find you’re own butt with both hands …
  • In 2004, the just education, healthcare, and incarceration costs were $10.5 billion ($7.7 for education). “… cheap illegal-alien labor is bankrupting the state and posing enormous burdens on the state’s [CA] shrinking middle-class tax base.” (said FAIR President Dan Stein)
  • A similar study by the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, said U.S. households headed by illegal aliens used $26.3 billion in government services during 2002, but paid $16 billion in taxes, an annual loss to California taxpayers of $10 billion. That was four years ago. It’s even worse now.
  • A 5-July-2005 study reveals the overall losses to U.S. taxpayers for education, heatlhcare, and crime:
    • 15% of California’s prison inmates are illegal aliens, costing the state more than $500 million annually.
    • Hospitals provide emergency treatment to all who walk through the door, regardless of their citizenship status or ability to pay. In 2001, America ‘s hospitals provided nearly $21 billion in uncompensated health care services. That was 5 years ago. It’s worse now.
    • Welfare and Government Assistance: Fraudulent Social Security cards, driver’s licenses and birth certificates are being bought by thousands of illegal immigrants each year. These false documents are used by individuals to get millions of dollars worth of welfare, public housing and Social Security benefits.
    • It would cost a staggering $8 billion per year over the next five years to deport all illegal aliens (a total of $41 billion). However, illegal aliens being in the U.S. creates a loss of over $26.3 billion per year (in 2002 dollars). Do the math. GDP is $12 trillion per year. $41 billion is a miniscule 0.34% of our GDP, and a mere 1.86% of the annual revenues for 2005.
If I pay you for, say painting my fence for instance, that means I value the painted fence MORE than the money I pay you with. When I hear people complain about the presence of the undocumented in our country, why is it that nobody even tries to tally the value WE RECEIVE?
Because it doesn’t amount to much. We’re not talking about highly skilled labor. But, if you are worried about it, why don’t you calculate it and get back to us.
Do not think of education as an investment in the future?
Education is not free. The pie is only so big. This nation is not for the public use of the world. Our U.S. citizens will get a much better education if we don’t lose a lot of money trying to education the rest of the world too. We can not all live at the expense of everyone else. That is a myth perpetuated by crooked, pandering politicians, and misguided people like yourself. You want to government to wipe your butt for you too?
If you concede that it is, then why does it not make sense to you to invest in the future citizens of our country, both children and those arriving here?
I don’t. Our nation is for legal citizens. Not people that disrespect our laws and services. It is our country for our children. Not everyone else’s. See previous sentence.
Do you imagine, perhaps that education is basically worthless (although it costs something anyway) and thus you would withhold it from those who will be future citizens of our country?
Future citizens are legal citizens. What good is a wanna-be-citizen that disrespects our laws. Sure, everyone wants to come here and enjoy what we have built. But, if we let everyone take it from us, we will all lose, and there will be nothing left for anyone. Duh!
To this I offer the European solution: If you qualify for it, you get it based on merit. Tuition and all.
Well, that proves you to be a socialist. You believe the myth that we can all live at the expense of everyone else. Thank goodness you are not in charge.
How about health care? We ALREADY pay for emergency care for all those who cannot get health care. They come pouring into our ER’s with absessed teeth that cost a fortune to deal with on an emergency basis, but could have prevented by MUCH cheaper preventive care at a regular dentist (just an example). You see, ER’s CANNOT turn people away in emergencies.
Fine. But once the borders are secured, illegal aliens voluntarily leave, educaton and welfare is denied to illegal aliens, then they will no longer land in our ERs.
I have YET to see neocon-republican solution to ANYTHING that didn’t ultimately make things worse and cost much much more in the long run. Immigration is no exception.
What ever. I’m not Republican, Democrat, or anything. Parties are not the problem or solution. Just like race, color, nationality, etc. are not the issue.
What tribal nation are you a member of, d.a.n.?
I am an American, born in Oklahoma, and living in Texas. You are the first I’ve ever heard refer to America as a tribal nation.
I simply don’t buy that you are native american and yet don’t instantly jump at the chance to identify your heritage.
RGF, Why not? You can’t believe others are not itching to make a race issue of it, you like?
The US most assuredly IS a nation of immigrants, d.a.n. Even those of us who are native american got here by travel across the land bridge. Just first, that’s all.
Legal immigrants. Not illegal. There’s a difference. We’re not talking about prehistoric times. That is another weak argument. You seem to angry because someone shot all of your weak, lame arguments full of holes. Don’t be mad at me. Reality is not my fault.

RGF, I have a few questions for you.

  • Do you think your bleedin’ heart, wanna-be-benevolent attitude is cowardly?

  • Where is your companssion for the one person murdered every 86 hours

  • Where is your compassion for U.S. citizens that go without healthcare and access to ERs because non-paynig illegal aliens have flooded them?

  • Where is your compassion for the truly needy U.S. citizens that can not get help because 32% of illegal aliens receive welfare ?

  • Where is your compassion for the illegal aliens being lured here for sub-minimum wage jobs, creating an under-class (practically slavery) ?

  • Where is your compassion for the victims and survivors of crimes upon U.S. Citizens by illegal aliens ?
    A staggering 29% of all prisoners are illegal aliens, and the crime rates are rising fast.

  • Where is your compassion for U.S. Americans who’s lives have been changed forever by illegal aliens that spread disease ?
    One illegal alien in Santa Barbara, California infected 56 other people
    with tuberculosis as reported on April 24, 2004, by the Santa Barbara
    Press-News, “Anatomy of an Outbreak”. Because illegal alien migration into the USA continues unabated for the past 20 years, we now have 16,000 new cases of incurable MDR tuberculosis in the past five years. We suffer 7,000 new cases of leprosy. We tolerate 100,000 new cases of hepatitis “A” in our society. Chagas Disease, which affects 14 million South Americans and kills 50,000 annually, streams across our borders as unchecked thousands of them enter our society.

  • Where is your compassion for the U.S. tax payers that lose many tens of billions per year due to all the numerous problems stemming from illegal aliens?

  • Why do you think the U.S. would crumble without cheap labor? Even if it were true (which it isn’t), is that the best excuse you have?
    Is that because you don’t want to pay more to have your lawn mowed? Or like Senator Linsey Graham (D-SC) who said: “as a golfer, I probably benefit from their [illegal aliens] labor.”
    Nevermind that S.C. has the highest rate of violent crime (excluding D.C.), largely due to illegal aliens.

  • Where is your compassion for all of the U.S. policemen murdered by illegal aliens?

  • Where is your compassion for all of the people that do not want to see a repeat of 11-Sep-2001, perpetrated by several illegal aliens ?

How do you so non-chalantly explain away all of this:

  • Last year, Phoenix, Arizona suffered 57,600 cars stolen by illegal aliens (500,000 illegals in that state) for use in drug smuggling and alien trafficking. If that many cars were stolen daily out of the U.S. Congressional parking lots, we,d see troops on the border within days.

  • Last summer in Boulder, Colorado, eight American daughters suffered rapes by eight illegal aliens who fled to Mexico afterward. All those women were somebody’s daughters and under the age of twenty-two.

  • In Los Angeles with millions of illegal aliens, thousands of drivers roll around the city with little signs that read, “F**K YOU, THIS IS MEXICO.” If thousands of illegal aliens without driver’s licenses rolled around Washington, D.C. daily with those little flashing L.E.D. signs in their back windows, the Beltway Boys would get a different perspective of the glories of “multiculturalism” and “diversity” they shove down our throats by allowing illegal aliens to break our laws.

  • PHOENIX – Television and radio stations began running ads in the Valley last week, paid for by the Coalition United to Secure America, attributing the 45% increase in homicides and 41% increase in home invasions to illegal aliens. Phoenix Police Department reports confirm those figures and Sgt. Tony Morales believes there is no doubt that the statistics are tied to illegal aliens.

  • According to statistics by the Salt Lake City Police Department (and verified by an independent study), 80% of all drug crimes in the City are committed by illegal aliens. In Salt Lake County, the equivalent number is 50%. That’s why Congressman Cannon is on the Immigration Subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee. He is working to insure that interior states, like Utah, are not overlooked in the war on illegal immigration.

  • In 2001, 87% of deportable aliens who received run letters disappeared, a number that was even higher-94 percent-if they were from terror-sponsoring countries.

  • 12/31/2002: Six-month figures revealed a 3.3% increase in violent crime in California, including a 16 percent rise in homicides, over the same span in 2001.

  • February 06,2006: The Monitor, According to the Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Assistance, more than a quarter of the approximately 400,000 days spent in the Hidalgo County Jail during the course of the 365-day period belonged to criminal illegal aliens convicted with at least one felony or two misdemeanors. (Days spent in jail during the pre-trial period were counted only if the criminal illegal alien was convicted of the crime.) The Hidalgo County Jail held 3,335 eligible criminal illegal alien inmates for the fiscal year 2005 reporting period, up from 3,136 criminal illegal alien inmates in 2004. These numbers have been confirmed through the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement vetting process, which runs inmate records through a series of databases to verify accuracy. The Hidalgo County jail only has approximately 1,200 beds. Not only do thousands of criminal illegal aliens crowd the jail, but many make repeat appearances.

  • 95% of 1,200 warrants for homicide in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens. 66% of 17,000 fugitive felony warrants are for illegal aliens.

  • John Mullaly a former NYPD homicide detective, states 70% of the drug dealers and other criminals in Manhattan’s Washington Heights are were illegal aliens.

See how educational that was.
Any more questions ?
If so, just let me know.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 13, 2006 7:38 PM
Comment #140557

Rahdigly,
Since I do not speak Spanish the words “Guárdelo y perderemos este país más rápido que lo perdemos ya” don’t mean a thing.

However, as far as blaming anyone that is the job of the Republicans so I’ll let you keep your job. Nevertheless, the Cold Hard Fact of The Law as it is written is that Every American is guility of aiding All Illegal Immigrants in America. Now one would think that a Conservative who supports the Republican Party stance on The Law would not have ant problem admitting that they are Wrong. But wait, excuse me I forgot that we were speaking of the Political Party that was going to restore Honor back to the Whitehouse. Maybe the solgan in 2006 is “Do what we say not what we do.”

Posted by: Henry Schlatman at April 13, 2006 10:43 PM
Comment #140560

d.a.n.,

Bleeding heart? Uh…no. Not by a long shot. But, I would much rather take responsibility for what my country has mishandled and handle those things better.

As for all your simplistic crime statistics…

INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY!!!
…or is that a part of your philosophy? It’s American and it’s civilized world. It is a precept we gained from English common law. It is a cornerstone of the very foundation and evolution of our society.
I’m absolutely not going to treat ALL illegal aliens like car theives and murderers just because you say so.

While coming to this country in violation of visas is illegal, I would rather seek to adress the cause, the outrageous disparity between our two nations (which we as a nation have profitted from by some rather unfortuneate dealings with our neighbor in the past), than stick my head in the sand and pretend that a fence is anything more than a minor but extremely expensive obstacle for people who are desparate to get here.

Shoot all the crime statistics at me you like, dan. YOU STILL MISS THE POINT!
Would you have us treat everyone here who is undocumented like car theives and murderers? If so, you would even more outrageously explode our prison populations with the undocumented. Surely that doesn’t make sense to you, does it? Do you imagine that ALL ELEVEN MILLION of the undocumented are dangerously violent?

You have continued to say that the fence is feasable. Have you seen the terrain you are referring to? I don’t care how much money you propose to throw at this problem, you won’t build a physical barrier that would stop a determined cow along most of the Texas part of the border. You are imagining that the whole border looks like Arizona and California’s part of it. It doesn’t.

…And what about the COST to us if we have NO MORE undocumented laborers in this country?

I fully agree with the idea of creating greater security along the border…in case of infiltration by terrorists or MS 13 or the like. The fence is NOT the answer. A total absence or deportation of the undocumented is NOT the answer.

AND TREATING THEM ALL LIKE MURDERERS AND CAR THEIVES IS NOT THE ANSWER, EITHER.

RGF

Posted by: RGF at April 13, 2006 10:49 PM
Comment #140567

d.a.n.,

You know, I believe in innocence until proven guilt because I am an American; because I understand that it is vastly more important to protect the innocent than to punish the guilty. I do this because I believe in rule of law.

Why don’t you?

Posted by: RGF at April 13, 2006 11:16 PM
Comment #140583
RGF wrote: I’m absolutely not going to treat ALL illegal aliens like car theives and murderers just because you say so.
And no one should. Your extrapolations reveal your hysteria. Or, frustration with you own weak arguments.
RGF wrote: Shoot all the crime statistics at me you like, dan. YOU STILL MISS THE POINT!
RGF, I get your point. It simply makes no sense. Screaming “YOU STILL MISS THE POINT!” does not make it more compelling. Please, believe what ever you want, before you blow a gasket.
RGF wrote: Would you have us treat everyone here who is undocumented like car theives and murderers?
Of course not. Why do you keep asking stupid questions?
RGF wrote: If so, you would even more outrageously explode our prison populations with the undocumented. Surely that doesn’t make sense to you, does it? Do you imagine that ALL ELEVEN MILLION of the undocumented are dangerously violent?
RGF, do you have a reading or comprehension problem? I written dozens of times that I’m not interested in deporting 12 million illegal aliens. Most will leave on their own if all the freebies are eliminated (e.g. public education, welfare, Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, tuitions, scholarships, voting, etc.).
RGF wrote: You have continued to say that the fence is feasable.
Yes it is. It would be very easy. You’ve fallen for the myth “It’s impossible”. RGF, How many roads criss-cross this nation? Get it?
RGF wrote: Have you seen the terrain you are referring to?
Yes. I live in Texas and own land in Texas, New Mexico, and Oklahoma. I’ve also been all over California, Arizona, Nevada, and 28 other states. The cost of the fence/road is only $8 billion. That’s minuscule compared to $1 billion per day for interest alone on the National Debt. Besides, the $8 billion would be recovered in the first few months, due to elimination of the many tens of billions lost per year due to the net loss of illegal aliens.
RGF wrote: I don’t care how much money you propose to throw at this problem, you won’t build a physical barrier that would stop a determined cow along most of the Texas part of the border. You are imagining that the whole border looks like Arizona and California’s part of it. It doesn’t.
Nope, of course not. By the way, we’re not talking about a 2-way/6-lane super highway. A gravel road would suffice.
RGF wrote: …And what about the COST to us if we have NO MORE undocumented laborers in this country?
RGF, I already covered that. There would be a net gain (not a loss). Illegal aliens are a drain on the U.S. tax payers. Not a gain. If you don’t believe it, prove it (good luck).
RGF wrote: I fully agree with the idea of creating greater security along the border…in case of infiltration by terrorists or MS 13 or the like.
Good.
RGF wrote: The fence is NOT the answer.
A fence/road. Cost = $8 billion. That’s a measely 0.36 percent of the annual budget, and a microscopic 0.07% (negligible) of GDP.
RGF wrote: A total absence or deportation of the undocumented is NOT the answer.
Of course not. Most will leave on their own, when all the freebies are eliminated.
RGF wrote: AND TREATING THEM ALL LIKE MURDERERS AND CAR THEIVES IS NOT THE ANSWER, EITHER.
I couldn’t agree more. All have commited the crime of illegally trespassing our borders. Some have been convicted of more serious crimes. They should only be treated according to their crime(s). You can understand that, since you say you “believe in rule of law”.
RGF wrote: You know, I believe in innocence until proven guilt because I am an American; because I understand that it is vastly more important to protect the innocent than to punish the guilty. I do this because I believe in rule of law.
I believe in the law too.
RGF wrote: … I believe in rule of law. Why don’t you?
I do. But, you seem to want to apply it selectively.

It is understandable that many people (like yourself) feel like they are being benevolent, and want to have compassion for illegal aliens.
But it not understandable to have less compassion for their fellow U.S. citizens. Truly needy U.S. Americans are waiting and going without, while millions of illegal aliens collect welfare, fill our prisons, defraud Social Security, Medicare, and fraudulently vote in our elections.

The pie can’t get any bigger. We are importing poverty while greedy employers of illegal aliens reap the most benefit (not U.S. citizens or illegal aliens). Supporters of illegal aliens fail to prioritize and understand the simple math, of how they are, by supporting illegal aliens, hurting their own fellow U.S. American citizens.

That is you RGF. Shame on you.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 14, 2006 1:13 AM
Comment #140588

d.a.n.,

I am not in any way ‘Shamed’ dan. Let’s stop the silly rhetoric right now.

I am not talking about applying law selectively. It simply wrong to treat an entire group as though they are ALL the same as those who are the worst within that group. Innocent until proven guilt is imperitive to our rule of law. Why do you not get that? You are trying to refute that with assertions that you don’t back up, such as: “illegal aliens collect welfare, fill our prisons, defraud Social Security, Medicare, and fraudulently vote in our elections.”

That doesn’t get it, dan. I’ve lived along the border all my life and I don’t see it. Why I have seen, over and over again, is the undocumented getting hideously taken advantage of time and time again. I’ve NEVER heard a peep about supposed voter fraud by the undocumented.

I’m not talking about the pie getting any bigger either. I’m merely talking about doing what is right and what is just.

The same exact accusations you hurl at the Mexicans have been thrown before at the Irish, Italians, etc.

The difference is that this time the wave of immigration is from a country that is connected to us by land, so they can walk across without going through Ellis island.

YOu keep quoting the same figures to me about the fence. I’ve hiked the very country we are talking about, dan. There is no way a dual fence, dual ditches and any kind of road whatsoever is going to be built through canyon country and the Chisos mountains along the Texas border. I’ve been there, have you? We’re talking rocky and steep terrain where digging just aint gonna happen. The fence is not even possible. …and yet, if I can hike that country, so can anybody else.

Do you understand now?

RGF

Posted by: RGF at April 14, 2006 1:46 AM
Comment #140598
RGF wrote: d.a.n., I am not in any way “Shamed” dan.
Then you are shameless too. Sad indeed. Your condition is no laughing matter.
RGF wrote: Let’s stop the silly rhetoric right now.
Not silly. Sad indeed.
RGF wrote: I am not talking about applying law selectively.
Sure you are.
RGF wrote: It simply wrong to treat an entire group as though they are ALL the same as those who are the worst within that group.
I couldn’t agree more. You are quarreling with yourself.
RGF wrote: Innocent until proven guilt is imperitive to our rule of law. Why do you not get that?
I couldn’t agree more. You keep quarreling with yourself?
RGF wrote: … you don’t back up, such as: “illegal aliens collect welfare, fill our prisons, defraud Social Security, Medicare, and fraudulently vote in our elections.”
Illegal aliens (32#) do collect welfare, fill our prisons (29%), and defraud Social Security, Medicare, and fraudulent vote in our elections. That part is all true. I can prove it, and have many times. You can not disprove facts I have shown you. If you could, you would have, indeed. But you can’t, which obviously frustrates you terribly.


RGF wrote:
That doesn’t get it, dan. I’ve lived along the border all my life and I don’t see it.

I’m sorry. I didn’t realize you were blind.

RGF wrote: I’ve NEVER heard a peep about supposed voter fraud by the undocumented.
Of course not. You are blind, silly.
RGF wrote: I’m not talking about the pie getting any bigger either. I’m merely talking about doing what is right and what is just.
RGF wrote: No, you want someone else to be responsible. You think everyone can live at the expense of everyone else. You disrespect your fellow Americans. Where is your compassion for your fellow U.S. citizens, many waiting and going without, while millions of illegal aliens collect welfare, fill our prisons, defraud Social Security, Medicare, and fraudulently vote in our elections?
RGF wrote: The same exact accusations you hurl at the Mexicans have been thrown before at the Irish, Italians, etc.
OOOhhhhh….you reveal your own racism, since I’ve never mentioned race, color or nationality. Just borders. Both the U.S./Canada and U.S./Mexico border. And I never said what race any illegal aliens are, because they are of all races. It is you that brings race into it. That is just down right disgusting.

RGF, You are playing the race card, because your position is so pathetically lame. It frustrates you, so you finally resort to racism.
I’ve been talking about illegal aliens, regardless of where they come from. I’ve advocated securing all borders.
I’ve never mentioned any race, nationality, or color.
You brought race into it. Shame, Shame, Shame on you.

RGF wrote: The difference is that this time the wave of immigration is from a country that is connected to us by land, so they can walk across without going through Ellis island.
Immigrants came legally through Ellis Island.
RGF wrote: YOu keep quoting the same figures to me about the fence.
I’m sorry. I forgot you are blind.
RGF wrote: I’ve hiked the very country we are talking about, dan.
Really? That’s quite an achievement for someone so blind.
RGF wrote: There is no way a dual fence, dual ditches and any kind of road whatsoever is going to be built through canyon country and the Chisos mountains along the Texas border.
Sure it can. Piece of cake. This coutry is criss crossed with roads through all types of terrains, tunnels, bridges, etc. There’s no difference.
RGF wrote: I’ve been there, have you?
Yes. I’ve been all over the world, all over 34 of the U.S. states. Just because you’ve been to a place does not mean a road to it is impossible. Besides, we aren’t talking about a 2-way/6-lane super highway. A gravel road would suffice.
RGF wrote: We’re talking rocky and steep terrain where digging just aint gonna happen.
Sure it can. Not everyone is as defeatist, negative, and can’t-be-done as you.
RGF wrote: The fence is not even possible.
Sure it is. Repeat after me: I think I can. I think I can. … . . I think I can.

Do that 50 times each day, and who knows?
You might eventually get over that can’t do attitude.

RGF wrote: If I can hike that country, so can anybody else.
I suppose so. So what? We can all hike?
RGF wrote: Do you understand now?
I was never confused. Sorry you thought that.

Glad I could help.
You are quite welcome.
Any more questions?

Posted by: d.a.n at April 14, 2006 2:46 AM
Comment #140649

d.a.n.,

Good grief, dan. I’m not being defeatist, nor am I talking about a highway. I’m talking about steep, rocky, mountainous terrain which you clearly have NOT seen. I don’t give a lick how much you have or have not seen of the world or our country…you have obviously not seen the border country I am talking about. You propose to anchor miles of fences and ditches, doubled, in places like Big-Bend country? Your not getting it at all, dan. Not even a little bit.

Heck, even the barbed wire you propose would be pointless since it would have to strung over boulders so big in places that anybody walking across would only have to duck between the cracks in the boulders and would thus go right under the wire as though it weren’t even there.

I encourage anybody and everybody out there who has seen the country I am talking about to help me get through to dan.

Treating ALL the undocumented like car thieves and murderers because somebody’s statistics show that they could be, and because crossing the border as an undocumented is illegal in itself, is like the death penalty for pick-pockets. YOUR concept of law is shallow and silly.
I assume you would not support the deaath penalty for American pickpockets? …how ‘bout undocumented Mexican pickpockets? Whose being selective?

I AM NOT IN FAVOR OF YOUR CONCEPT OF SELECTIVE LAW!!!

As for the rest of your sour, shalow and rediculous rhetoric…we’ll just ignore it for now.

Proper handling of the legal issues here, is to deal with the murderers and car thieves as murderers and car thieves, while dealing with the undocumented as undocumented.
If that is selective law to you, I feel sorry for the poor civics teacher who had to grade your papers and exams in high school.

Oh, that’s right. This is the U.S…you probably either didn’t have one or it was a coach who didn’t want to be in the classroom anyway and only got the class because it was thing he could teach besides football.

Are you aware that the reason we send our coast guard out to stop the Haitians and Cubans in the waters off our coasts is because WE RECOGNIZE that they have have a right to political assylum in this country? It’s true. It’s a recognized fact in our imigration courts. All they have to do is set foot on American soil and ask for it and they qualify for political assylum. So, what do we do? We stop ‘em in the water and send them back without contact with American soil.

Is that selective law to YOU, dan?

Why don’t you look into the quota system for allowing certain immigrants in keeping other nationalities out. Is THAT selective law to you, dan?

These distinctions should be nothing to the fruitcake who wants to treat entire nationalities like car thieves and murderers.

RGF

Posted by: RGF at April 14, 2006 12:28 PM
Comment #140653

d.a.n.,

Offer me reason and evidence, not ad-homonym opinion pieces as though they constitute evidnce.

Your posts are peppered with references to Mexico and Mexicans and yet you purport to have not pleyed the race card. You cannot make the distinction between car thieves and murderers and Mexicans and yet you call me a rascist. You were the ONLY one to play the race card in this issue, dan. Not I. It’s sad to imagine you think referencing the previous waves of immigration is any way rascist. Assuming that ALL undocumented Mexicans in this country are murderers and car thieves clearly is.

RGF

Posted by: RGF at April 14, 2006 12:51 PM
Comment #140697
RGF wrote: d.a.n., Good grief, dan. I’m not being defeatist, nor am I talking about a highway. I’m talking about steep, rocky, mountainous terrain which you clearly have NOT seen. I don’t give a lick how much you have or have not seen of the world or our country…you have obviously not seen the border country I am talking about. You propose to anchor miles of fences and ditches, doubled, in places like Big-Bend country?
Good grief, RGF. Yes you are. All you ever say is can’t, can’t, can’t. A fence/road is easy. It is only impossible in the mind of a defeatist.
RGF wrote: Your not getting it at all, dan. Not even a little bit.
Good. Such illogic should pass for logic.
RGF wrote: Heck, even the barbed wire you propose would be pointless since it would have to strung over boulders so big in places that anybody walking across would only have to duck between the cracks in the boulders and would thus go right under the wire as though it weren’t even there.
RGF, There is no barbed wire. It is Razor wire. And there are cameras, patrols, night vision, siesmic, motion, termal sensors, and open circuit detectors to detect breaks in the fence. There are 4 to 6 barriers. Flat regions may have ditches to block vehicles. Some extremely rugged regions could be patroled only. There are lots of solutions if you are not a defeatist with a can’t do attitude. And, the whole thing would only cost $8 billion. That’s less than 8 days of interest on the national debt, less than one third of the $29 billion for pork-barrel in 2005 (not to mention previous years), far less than the $24.44 billion (in 1996), … , $70 billion (in 2005) net losses cause by illegal aliens (which does not even include the massive costs of crime, increased crime rates, and 1 person in CA, AZ, and TX murdered every 86 hours; crimes that should have never happened). Just one year of $7.7 billion in losses in California for education alone would pay for the fence/road system. 150,000 to 200,000 border patrol at a cost of $10 billion per year would still represent a huge savings.

RGF wrote: I encourage anybody and everybody out there who has seen the country I am talking about to help me get through to dan.
RGF, You are so frustrated with the weakness of your lame arguments, that you are now trying to recruit others to help you. Your are desperate, but few come to your help. If you want to help your credibiltiy, provide proof. You would have already done that if it existed. But, it does not. You are not well informed on the topic, and it shows. Don’t get mad at me for the facts as they are, just because it’s not what you want to hear, but are unable to refute with any studies, reports, or research. You can’t because the overwhelming evidence supports the fact that illegal aliens are a net loss to most American citizens ($25 billion in 1996, and estimated to be $70 billion in 2005), due to a 32% of all illegal aliens receive welfare, 29% of all prisoners are illegal aliens, increased crime rates, most are poor, low-educated, and low-skilled, which is the usual result of any massive, uncontrolled inflow of illegal aliens. Illegal aliens do not flood over the borders into countries that are poorer. Many come for jobs, but with 32% of illegal aliens receiving welfare, and 29% of all prisoners being illegal aliens, it is clear that many also come for the crime and welfare. RGF, if you don’t believe it, fine. Disprove it. Good luck.
RGF wrote: Treating ALL the undocumented like car thieves and murderers because somebody’s statistics show that they could be, and because crossing the border as an undocumented is illegal in itself, is like the death penalty for pick-pockets.
RGF wrote: YOUR concept of law is shallow and silly. I assume you would not support the deaath penalty for American pickpockets? …how ‘bout undocumented Mexican pickpockets? Whose being selective?

RGF wrote:
RGF, You are being selective. Especially with nonsensical analogies.
BTW, I do not support the death penalty at all becaue too many mistakes are made.


RGF wrote:
I AM NOT IN FAVOR OF YOUR CONCEPT OF SELECTIVE LAW!!!

Yeah you are.

RGF wrote: As for the rest of your sour, shalow and rediculous rhetoric…we’ll just ignore it for now.
Would you prefer your loud, rude, dense, blind rhetoric ?
RGF wrote: Proper handling of the legal issues here, is to deal with the murderers and car thieves as murderers and car thieves, while dealing with the undocumented as undocumented.
RGF wrote: I could not agree more. Illegal aliens are: See 1st word in sentence: illegal. The first offense is a misdemenor. The 2nd offense is a felony.
RGF wrote: If that is selective law to you, I feel sorry for the poor civics teacher who had to grade your papers and exams in high school.
I had all A’s and B’s. How about you ? Did you always get U’s (Unsatisfactory) in conduct ?
RGF wrote: Oh, that’s right. This is the U.S…you probably either didn’t have one or it was a coach who didn’t want to be in the classroom anyway and only got the class because it was thing he could teach besides football.
Sad, but true.
RGF wrote: Are you aware that the reason we send our coast guard out to stop the Haitians and Cubans in the waters off our coasts is because WE RECOGNIZE that they have have a right to political assylum in this country? It’s true. It’s a recognized fact in our imigration courts. All they have to do is set foot on American soil and ask for it and they qualify for political assylum. So, what do we do? We stop ‘em in the water and send them back without contact with American soil.
That’s all messed up. We can’t let everyone in that wants in. But, if you want them all so bad, why don’t you come let them live with you? Settle in? Invite a few friends?
RGF wrote: Is that selective law to YOU, dan?
Yes, like I said, it is all messed up. I wouldn’t let any one in unless they are war refugees, and that even has it’s limits. The U.S. is not for the public use of the rest of the world. You think it is someone else’s responsibility. Otherwise, if you put your money and resources where you hypocrital mouth is, and send some checks now to help everyone you think needs it. Sorry, RGF. It’s not for you to decide that for others. Instead of whinin’ and complainin’ and makin’ excuses for illegal aliens, where is your compassion for U.S. citizens that go without due to lack of resources and access to healthcare and ERs caused by illegal aliens?
RGF wrote: Why don’t you look into the quota system for allowing certain immigrants in keeping other nationalities out. Is THAT selective law to you, dan?
See previous two questions above.
RGF wrote: These distinctions should be nothing to the fruitcake who wants to treat entire nationalities like car thieves and murderers.
I agree. You are adept at twisted logic. But, I never said you were a fruitcake.
RGF wrote: d.a.n., Offer me reason and evidence, not ad-homonym opinion pieces as though they constitute evidnce.
I have many times, but you are deaf and dumb. Logic does not work.
RGF wrote: Your posts are peppered with references to Mexico and Mexicans and yet you purport to have not pleyed the race card.
RGF, you play the race card, which reveals your own racism. I never mentioned any race or color ever. You did, because you are racist, and because your are frustrated with your numerous lame arguments all being shot full of holes…so you resort to racism. Shame on you. That’s not nice.
RGF wrote: You cannot make the distinction between car thieves and murderers and Mexicans and yet you call me a rascist.
Because you are. Sorry if the truth hurts.
RGF wrote: You were the ONLY one to play the race card in this issue, dan. Not I.
RGF, I’ve never mentioned any race. You did repeatedly, as embarrassingly evidenced by your many shameful posts above. Illegal aliens are of many races. You are fixated on one race, because you are racist.
RGF wrote: It’s sad to imagine you think referencing the previous waves of immigration is any way rascist.
Those previous waves were legal. There’s a difference.
RGF wrote: Assuming that ALL undocumented Mexicans in this country are murderers and car thieves clearly is.
RGF, Nobody on this entire thread ever said such a terrible thing as you just did, which reveals your own underlying racism and hatred, which can not help but leak through a dishonest layer of hyprocrisy. Posted by: d.a.n at April 14, 2006 4:14 PM
Comment #140706

Dan,

“Good grief, RGF. Yes you are. All you ever say is can’t, can’t, can’t. A fence/road is easy. It is only impossible in the mind of a defeatist.”

I am going to get back in on this conversation, and, while I am at it, I will try to keep the hyperbole/retoric to a minimum.

RGF, nothing is impossible if you have enough money to throw at it.

Dan, you seem to belive that the border area looks like a typical western landscape. You know pancake flat desert, a few saguaro cactus, maybe some sagebrush, and if you look at the southern border of Arizona you might see a little of that.
Well for the most part, what RGF is talking about is nothing like that.

These pages show only the area around Big Bend National Park, which only has 69 miles of the Rio Grande River running through it. On the Texas Mexican border the Rio Grande runs for a thousand miles.

http://www.nps.gov/bibe/photogallery/mountain.htm

http://www.nps.gov/bibe/photogallery/desert.htm

You want to build a fence?

Sure it can be done, we have put men on the moon.

It ain’t gonna happen for $8. billion.

Posted by: Rocky at April 14, 2006 5:03 PM
Comment #140733

Rocky,

Even if the fence/road cost 3 times that ( 3 x $8 billion = $24 billion ), it would still be less than the $24.44 billion net loss in 1996 (see diagram above). That was 10 years ago.

  • It was estimated to be $70 billion in 2005, but no body knows for sure, and it does not include the cost of increased crime rates.
  • Some reports indicate California’s annual losses are $10 billion.
  • Lack of insurance leads many immigrants to use hospital emergency departments—the most expensive source of health care—as their primary care provider. Emergency room visits increased by 20 percent in the last decade. (source: fairus.org)
  • In some hospitals, as much as 67% of total operating costs are for uncompensated care for illegal aliens.
  • Although a national total of annual unreimbursed medical expenses for illegal aliens is not available, it is clear that those costs are more than one billion dollars, given estimates for Texas ($393 million), Los Angeles ($350 million), Florida ($40 million), and U.S.-Mexico border counties ($300 million).
  • The problem is on the rise: Immigrants (legal and illegal) who arrived between 1994 and 1998 and their children accounted for 59 percent of the growth in the size of the uninsured population in the last ten years.
  • The increase in uncompensated care for immigrants has forced some hospitals to reduce staff, increase rates, cut back services, and close maternity wards and trauma centers.
  • incarceration costs $33 billion just for room and board for two-time offender illegal aliens who committed criminal violations after they broke immigration laws (source: worldnetdaily.com, May-2005); 29% of all prisoners are illegal aliens (source: washingtondispatch.com)
  • Fraudulent Social Security cards, driver’s licenses and birth certificates are being bought by thousands of illegal immigrants each year. These false documents are used by individuals to get millions of dollars worth of welfare, public housing and Social Security benefits.
Posted by: d.a.n at April 14, 2006 7:30 PM
Comment #141367

i think that enriqie fella is full of horsesh** i was in los angeles years ago i got lost got off the freeway and those gall durn mexicans started throwing rocks and bottles at my truck scared the crap out of me and my daughter that was almost twenty years ago. so they mumbled some words big deal you sound like a wine ass baby are you legal? tony what a pathetic fool you are some day your hand will get bitten off they are just using you stupid and that aldous he is or she? is the worst i heard someone say you live in the phillipines that explans it another one who hates this country why dont you spew your vemon at your own country big shot to dam chicken too huh? if this is such a bad place why the hell is everyone comeing here lets see you wave a american flag down in mexico pal or just go down to tj at night they steal your car rob you and kill you now it is getting like that up here what the hell is going on here you ass liberals would protect a illegal killer and then burn our flag well birds of the same feather fly together thats what i say that flag stuff backfired on them illegals now most of them our waving american flags too late benedict arnold yea benedict arnold that whats the most of youse are. i piccked cotton did anything i could i never took wellfare i fought in korea dam shame it is i dont have much my house is clean and so am i i live on 1100 a month ss and 200 from vetrans i got shotin korea twice i dont hate anybody thers a lot of people from other parts of the world who would love come here but they cant its not fair to them becase that dam vinciente foxx wants to make this place mexico just like castro send all your poor and bad people here because dont want them i aint so stupid those liberals are damm yas

Posted by: FA STEPHENS at April 18, 2006 1:23 AM
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