Republicans & Conservatives: Archives

Dawn,
I agree that there are good people and bad people that are coming here…legally or illegally. Yes, it would be nice to keep the good people and ship the bad people home.

I started out an argument about this illegal immigration subject mostly as a joke. I said that I agreed with Dennis Miller…that we should buy Mexico. I’m sure he suggested it in his comedy act as a joke.

But now I’m not so sure it’s a joke.

One conservative, Glenn Renolds, has partially jumped on board the “Buy Mexico” Love Train.

Annex Mexico

The more I think about it…all the pluses and minuses…the better I like the idea.

We bought Alaska.

We bought Louisiana.

Why not Mexico?

Posted by: Jim T at April 11, 2006 11:30 AM

Jim T,

If we purchase Mexico - we would then be in charge of securing their southern border.. they do a MUCH BETTER job of it than we do.

I see more minuses than pluses at this point.

I would like to see Foxes’ response if we made an offer.

Posted by: dawn at April 11, 2006 11:39 AM

Dawn,

How do we secure the thousands of miles of our borders?
Oh, and who’s going to pay for it?

America has blown hundreds of billions of dollars on the war on terror, and we are trillions of dollars in debt.
A border fence isn’t going to happen, and we can’t just line up security guards shoulder to shoulder along our borders.
If there was the money, you would think that Homeland Security would have been the priority.

Maybe we should just privatize the Border Patrol.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 11:49 AM

If we purchase Mexico - we would then be in charge of securing their southern border.. they do a MUCH BETTER job of it than we do.

Erm, they will still be there, we aren’t kicking out all of the Mexicans if we choose to purchase Mexico…

The real problem is that the purchase would really put us in a damper economically at a time when we are already severely in the red.

Posted by: Rhinehold at April 11, 2006 11:54 AM

Go figure:

I live in the fastest growing Hispanic (legal/illegal/migrant) population area in the country - 187% growth. I also live in one of the top 10 safest/most desirable cities in the US - Cary, NC.

Maybe crime is the by-product of individual areas and how they treat their “at risk” populations… rather than a person’s country of origin…

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 11:56 AM

Rhinehold,

“The real problem is that the purchase would really put us in a damper economically at a time when we are already severely in the red.”

And the Republicans are trying to rid us of social programs.
We can’t think that purchasing Mexico would solve that problem either.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 11:58 AM

Is it for sale?

Posted by: Jack at April 11, 2006 12:00 PM

Dawn,

The plusses I see immediately are:

Huge work force (not cheap labor) that would help us produce more goods and services. Perhaps an influx of workers would allow us to expand, and , who knows, start making the trade imbalance more balanced. Don’t forget what the workforce in China (who DOES have a large force of cheap labor) is doing to us now.

They will be contributing to the Social Security pool…insuring that Social Security will still be there when you and I retire. With the current “donation” the population is making, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, etc., will be a thing of the past without a larger “contribution” from the workforce.

And that “fence” or “wall” that so many people want to build (with WHAT money???). How many miles of border do we have right now? Thousands? If you look at the map of Mexico, there’s very few miles of border with Guatemala…and Belize…well, from what I hear, that’s a great place to retire.

Mexico has a great abundance of oil and natural gas. Not to mention precious metals (gold, silver, etc.).

Mexico has outstanding tourist traps (Cozumel, Playa Del Carmen, Cancun, Puerta Villarta, just to mention a few).

Jeez, the more I think about it, the better I like the idea.

No Joke…I think we should just buy Mexico and get it over and done with.

Posted by: Jim T at April 11, 2006 12:06 PM

Jack,

For the right amount of money…ANYTHING’S for sale.

Rhinehold,

How can we NOT afford to buy it? Hell, we don’t even have to send troops in to take it. BONUS!

Posted by: Jim T at April 11, 2006 12:08 PM

Tony,

” live in the fastest growing Hispanic (legal/illegal/migrant) population area in the country - 187% growth. I also live in one of the top 10 safest/most desirable cities in the US - Cary, NC.”

I live in Phoenix, where virtually all convenience store, fast food resturant, and labor intensive construction, in other words any low paying job is now in the hands of a latino.
Arizona is a right to work state. The union presence here is nil.
We have been invaded!
Belive it or not I really don’t have a problem as long as everybody lives by the laws and respects each other.
I do wish though, that the protesters wouldn’t wave Mexican flags. I do find that a bit insulting.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 12:12 PM

‘How do we secure the thousands of miles of our borders?’

Well… I suggest we start with the areas that are the most accessible.

Paying for it…

You did not mention the vast amount of money spent on the airline industry that was pretty much wasted.

Not denying the money spent on Iraq -
What about all the money that is simply wasted by our government(both sides)?
‘Your waste is someone elses’ paydirt.’

I’m not against raising taxes on the wealthiest in our society. From what I’ve heard, alot of them don’t mind either.
Their gardners and maids can become legal citizens AND we can control the border.

Tony,
‘Maybe crime is the by-product of individual areas and how they treat their “at risk” populations… rather than a person’s country of origin…’

That is why I added the second part of my article.

Posted by: dawn at April 11, 2006 12:14 PM

We went from the serious to the silly to the surreal in the space of just nine posts.

You guys are good!

Posted by: ulysses at April 11, 2006 12:15 PM

Dawn,

“You did not mention the vast amount of money spent on the airline industry that was pretty much wasted.

Not denying the money spent on Iraq -
What about all the money that is simply wasted by our government(both sides)?
‘Your waste is someone elses’ paydirt.’”

What you don’t mention is that money is gone, spent, pissed away.
There are greater needs than a fence along our border.
Those that want to come to the U.S. already traverse a desert in Arizona, for instance that claims untold numbers of lives every year.
Putting up a fence in the most accessible areas is pissing in the wind. These people don’t care if they risk their lives to get here. They spend their life savings, a fence over a space of a few “accessible” miles isn’t going to deter those that have already faced hardship just to get to the fence.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 12:23 PM

Do we get a discount if we buy Canada too?

I’m only half joking. I had a poll up on my website and a majority of the respondents said a North American Union, similar to the EU, is something they’d be interested in.

How is our Government going to prevent the criminals from becoming new citizens?

I’m pretty sure that being in jail is a really big clue. :)

Posted by: American Pundit at April 11, 2006 12:25 PM

Pundit,

Usually I disagree with you…but the idea of a North American Union isn’t that bad of an idea.

But keep Canada. Too much snow and cold weather. And they drink beer that’s named after a dead animal hanging on the wall. :-)

I’m still on the “Let’s Buy Mexico” side of the fence.

ulysses,

We went from the serious to the silly to the surreal in the space of just nine posts.

Silly and surreal? Or would that be realistic and pragmatic?

I’m SERIOUS!!!

Let’s buy Mexico!

Or go half-way and follow the musings of Glenn Renolds…and annex Mexico.

Pundit may have a decent idea as well…

Posted by: Jim T at April 11, 2006 12:47 PM

What if they don’t want to sell. Do we try a hostile takeover? (Speaking in business tersm, of course.)

We could offer them statehood. Fox could stay on as governor. Of course, we tried that with Puerto Rico. Didn’t work.

Wait a minute. If we could get enough Americans to move to Mexico, THEN hold elections, it might work.

Or maybe invite them to become a territory of the United States, like all those little islands in the South Pacific. They could retain their Mexican citizenship, but enjoy all the benefits of an American citizen.

There has to be a way and we should be pressuring the two governments to work it out.

Jim T

I like that North American Union idea. It’s worked well in Europe. Maybe we could get France to set it up for us. (They do have an interest in Canada, after all.)

Posted by: ulysses at April 11, 2006 01:29 PM

Rocky,
‘Those that want to come to the U.S. already traverse a desert in Arizona, for instance that claims untold numbers of lives every year.’

How to solve that… Set up 24/7 offices at every LEGAL crossing and have people go through checks to see who they are and SIGN IN.
When they sign in they either sign UP to work and travel back and forth OR they sign UP to get on the path to citizenship.
This way they have a pass to use to cross and we know who they are.
Not everyone who crosses the border comes here to become a citizen.
Those who are coming across to do harm will be the ones ‘dying in the desert’.

I said CONTROL the border not CLOSE the border.

Posted by: dawn at April 11, 2006 01:42 PM

“I live in Phoenix, where virtually all convenience store, fast food resturant, and labor intensive construction, in other words any low paying job is now in the hands of a latino.
Arizona is a right to work state. The union presence here is nil.
We have been invaded!
Belive it or not I really don’t have a problem as long as everybody lives by the laws and respects each other.
I do wish though, that the protesters wouldn’t wave Mexican flags. I do find that a bit insulting.”

Again, I’d have to guess that it’s the way people are treated in certain areas that would be the root cause of illegal behaviors. As far as people working certains jobs - not sure what to say about that… here, many of the convience store workers are either Middle Eastern or African, but not sure what the point of this observation would be.

North Carolina is a right to work state as well, but I don’t see much impact of low wage jobs, most are hourly employess and would not be in a union - as far as I know, but my knowledge here is minimal… I only hire within unions when I work in Union areas.

As far as being insulted by flying flags… why, that’s what they are for, right?

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 01:48 PM

tony-

You live in the containment area; that explains a lot! :)

Posted by: George in SC at April 11, 2006 01:54 PM

I know the “buy Mexico” thing is a joke, but it might be interesting to hear what actual Mexicans (or even their government) think of the idea.
Statehood for certain parts of Mexico may seem silly on the surface, but it’s not unfeasible.

Posted by: TheTraveler at April 11, 2006 02:09 PM

tony,

“As far as being insulted by flying flags… why, that’s what they are for, right?”

No actually, not if you want to be considered an American citizen. This ain’t Mexico, you want to protest and fly your Mexican flag, do it in Mexico. You want to be an American, fly an American flag.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 02:16 PM

“No actually, not if you want to be considered an American citizen. This ain’t Mexico, you want to protest and fly your Mexican flag, do it in Mexico. You want to be an American, fly an American flag.”

One of my employees is from Ecuador… and he is quite proud of his heritage. He can fly/wear whatever he wants to. If I ever move to another country - I will always be American, and I will fly that flag. I thinks it’s small minded to require people to sacrafice their past in order to be “American.” We are the apex of immigrant success - no one here can avoid that past. I say we show respect and honor to our past by allowing what has been our success to be the possible future for others.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 02:25 PM

Just had to comment on the flag flying.

I used to have three flags flying in front of my house: An American flag, Vietnam Veterans MIA flag and the United Nations flag. (Yes, I did fly the American flag higher than the UN flag.)

But I caught so much hell for the U.N. flag (one morning I awoke to find it gone!) that I finally took it down.

This is America. If the American Nazi Party can fly the swastika, what the hell’s wrong with the Mexican flag, or the flag of any other country, for that matter.

Posted by: ulysses at April 11, 2006 02:30 PM

‘We are the apex of immigrant success - no one here can avoid that past.’

Tony,
I don’t think the arguement has anything to do with being proud of one’s past - if one is in streets of the U.S. fighting for RIGHTS given to U.S. citizens and/or the right to become a citizen WHY on earth would you wave the flag of another country?
That does not show ‘proud of my past’ - It shows ‘I’m Mexican and plan to stay Mexican.’ There is a difference.

Posted by: dawn at April 11, 2006 02:30 PM

Thank you Dawn, I couldn’t have said it better, though I might add that if you want to protest arogance isn’t a tool that will get you anywhere.

Tony,

Arizona is one of the states that the anexation movement wants to reclaim in the name of Mexico, not to mention that there are quite a few rednecks here that would like to see our Latino friends just go back where they came from.
Needless to say the flag waving is a sore subject here in Arizona.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 02:41 PM

“That does not show ‘proud of my past’ - It shows ‘I’m Mexican and plan to stay Mexican.’ There is a difference.”

It is an issue you perceive, but one that does not exist with the Hispanic population. They see maintaining their heritage as well as becoming American. Both flags mean an enourmous amount to them, and I would think extremely shortsighted and rude to ask that they give up either. I would call it unAmerican.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 02:50 PM

I know the “buy Mexico‎ thing is a joke, but it might be interesting to hear what actual Mexicans (or even their government) think of the idea.

The problem is that the majority of Mexicans (from a recent Zogby poll) see the southwest as clearly Mexican territory and would like to re-annex it. That’s California, Colorado, Nevada, New Mexcio, Arizona and Texas (some include Washington, Oregon and Utah…)

Something is going to have to give soon. I have always thought that the only real answer to the problem was to invite Mexico into the Union, but it would have to be by our rules, not theirs. I’m not sure how they would feel about that myself.

Either way, the situation is not getting resolved and it’s getting to a point where it’s going to end up being one way or the other…

Posted by: Rhinehold at April 11, 2006 02:51 PM

Tony,

If I was in America illegally and I wanted sympathy for my cause, the last thing that I would want to do would be to rub someones face in it, and that is the percepction here in Arizona.

Have some tact.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 02:54 PM

Dawn,

That’s a very good article. Thank you.
You raised many important issues.
I’m waiting for someone to now call you a racist.
The illegal alien sympathizers don’t have a lot debating points, so they resort to stuff like:

• you are a racist;


• we are all immigrants;


• you are using color and nationality;


• the U.S. would collapse without them (a total myth);


• they are more law abiding (another myth; 29% of our all prisoners are illegal aliens); and, nevermind that just being here, driving without a drivers license and auto insurance is a crime;

I don’t blame illegal aliens for wanting to come here. Heck, who wouldn’t. 32% of illegal aliens are on welfare. And, even though 29% of prisoners are illegal aliens, costing billions per year, they are often released due to prison overcrowding, and they simply return to commit the same crimes. A GAO-5646R Report indicated that a study group of 55,322 illegal aliens had an average arrest record of 13 arrests per illegal alien.

I know many well meaning U.S. citizens feel like allowing illegal aliens to come here is benevolent and compassionate, but it will lead to chaos, societal disorder, resentment, and fuel racism. We will eventually all be losers. In a country such as ours, with welfare, public education, countless public services, laws designed to control disease, require citizens to have auto insurance, register vehicles, pass a driver’s test, etc., the end result will be the failure of all of those systems. It is already happening in border states.

It really has nothing to do with race. But, illegal alien sympathizers are making excuses for the problems stemming from illegal immigration, and insist on making a race issue of it.

And it is very effective too. It scares off many people. So, too many Americans refrain (cowardly), and watch their nation being overrun by crime, disease, and the fast growing burden on healthcare, E.R., hospital, education, law enforcement, insurance, and prison systems.

And crime is rising fast:

• 95% of 1,200 warrants for homicide in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens. 66% of 17,000 fugitive felony warrants are for illegal aliens.

John Mullaly a former NYPD homicide detective, states 70% of the drug dealers and other criminals in Manhattan’s Washington Heights are were illegal aliens.

• According to statistics by the Salt Lake City Police Department (and verified by an independent study), 80% of all drug crimes in the City are committed by illegal aliens. In Salt Lake County, the equivalent number is 50%. That’s why Congressman Cannon is on the Immigration Subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee. He is working to insure that interior states, like Utah, are not overlooked in the war on illegal immigration.


• PHOENIX Television and radio stations began running ads in the Valley last week, paid for by the Coalition United to Secure America, attributing the 45% increase in homicides and 41% increase in home invasions to illegal aliens. Phoenix Police Department reports confirm those figures and Sgt. Tony Morales believes there is no doubt that the statistics are tied to illegal aliens. However, news reports about the ads have brought out comments from Rep. Steve Gallardo, District 13, who was quick to claim the ads racist (yep, anyone against illegal immigration is always a racist).


• 12/31/2002: Six-month figures revealed a 3.3% increase in violent crime in California, including a 16 percent rise in homicides, over the same span in 2001.


• February 06,2006: The Monitor, According to the Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Assistance, more than a quarter of the approximately 400,000 days spent in the Hidalgo County Jail during the course of the 365-day period belonged to criminal illegal aliens convicted with at least one felony or two misdemeanors. (Days spent in jail during the pre-trial period were counted only if the criminal illegal alien was convicted of the crime.) The Hidalgo County Jail held 3,335 eligible criminal illegal alien inmates for the fiscal year 2005 reporting period, up from 3,136 criminal illegal alien inmates in 2004. These numbers have been confirmed through the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement. But, the Hidalgo County jail only has 1,200 beds. Not only do thousands of criminal illegal aliens crowd the jail, but many make many repeat appearances.
Hence, many illegal aliens have been released due to overcrowding.

• In 2001, 87% of deportable aliens who received run letters disappeared, a number that was even higher-94 percent-if they were from terror-sponsoring countries.

Where is the compassion for the hundreds of people murdered by illegal aliens? One person is murdered by an illegal alien every 86 hours. Wake up, and, at the very least, secure the borders, prosecute those that illegal employ illegal aliens, and deport all criminaal illegal alien prisoners.

Crime is only part of the other numerous serious issues:

• increased crime rates;


• burden on education systems;


• burden on healthcare systems;


• burden on Centers for Disease Control and Prevention; an average of 2,000 illegal aliens come streaming across our borders daily, and one (1) illegal alien in Santa Barbara, CA. infected 56 other people with tuberculosis as reported on April 24, 2004, by the Santa Barbara Press-News, “Anatomy of an Outbreak”


• burden on hospital systems;


• burden on welfare systems; 32% of illegal aliens are on welfare (Jan-2004);


• burden on Social Security system;


• burden on Medicaid system;


• burden on border patrol systems; ever increasing numbers are needed;


• burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;


• burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;


• burden on prison systems; 29% of prisoners in state and federal prisons are illegal aliens (Sep-2004);


• burden on voting systems; voter fraud with fake ID;

So, the “Americain Dream”, for some, is more than just finding a job.
For some, it is crime and welfare.

At any rate, we can not deport 12 million people. But, we should stop the inflow.

THE SOLUTION:

• Secure the borders (with resources we already have and only 1% of the total active duty military, guard, and reserves)


• Require enforcement of all immigration laws. Enforce the existing laws.


• Require ALL employers to use the Social Security Verification System for ALL hires.


• Deny ALL illegal alien births automatic citizenship. End anchor-baby blue passports;


• Deny ALL illegal aliens a FREE K-12 education.


• Deny ALL illegal aliens ANY and ALL ‘public benefits’.


• Deny ALL illegal aliens driver’s licenses and in-state college tuition.


• Deport all incarcerated criminal aliens immediately;


• Verify ALL voter’s citizenship, before permission to vote.

Unfortunately, our bought-and-paid-for, FOR-SALE government will never pass any reforms until voters stop re-electing irresponsible incumbents.

Americans are foolishly selling themselves out. Or, America sold out a long time ago, and we are merely witnessing the transfer of the assets of that sale now?
When the deal is complete, like most corporate buy outs, Americans will start losing more than just their jobs, and that day seems to be getting closer and closer every day.

If Americans apathetically standby, once again, and do nothing, then they deserve what ever they get.

_________________________________________
Stop Repeat Offenders.
Don’t Re-Elect Them !
_________________________________________

Posted by: d.a.n at April 11, 2006 03:04 PM

My point is not support something that would fly in the face of people who I need support from… My point is that the perception is wrong. I am involved with the Hispanic culture here, and I can just imagine their confused faces when I explain this to them. They are not rubbing their culture in anyone’s face… and in fact their culture and sense of family is one of the strongest assets they bring - something I think American is in desparate need of.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 03:05 PM

‘It is an issue you perceive, but one that does not exist with the Hispanic population. They see maintaining their heritage as well as becoming American.’

Not all of them.
Some Americans of Mexican heritage are ashamed of Mexico and the fact that it isn’t doing a better job for it’s people - a BIG reason why they immigrated.
Maybe it’s because those I know don’t live in areas that have a large population of Latinos and it’s much easier to assimilate.

AND like others have said - many are ‘invading’ because they believe parts of the U.S. should be returned to Mexico.

AND ‘perception’ is EXACTLY why they were told to put the Mexican flags away.

Posted by: dawn at April 11, 2006 03:06 PM

d.a.n. -

Again my point back to you would be that you have stated mostly local stats… a few national, but…

Wake County, NC - fastest growing Hispanic population (187% - legal, illegal, migrant.)

Cary NC (in Wake County) - voted #6 safest cities in the country. Voted in top 10 best places to live, voted #1 best place to retire.

I’m not saying that nothing needs to be done with this issue - but we need to look at the facts and the successes to determine the best course of action.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 03:11 PM

Tony,

Have you ever dealt with La Raza?

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 03:12 PM

“AND ‘perception’ is EXACTLY why they were told to put the Mexican flags away”

My own personal opinion - anyone who would suggest that they put their flags away SHOULD have their noses rubbed in it. To me, that suggestion would be showing the absolute worst in American culture. If I took flags as seriously as the ideas they represent, then I would be outside right now, burning the American flag that hangs over my door. This myopic notion is an embarrassment us all.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 03:16 PM

“Have you ever dealt with La Raza?”

No - I was unaware. Thanks for the suggestion.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 03:17 PM

Tony wrote:

Again, I’d have to guess that it’s the way people are treated in certain areas that would be the root cause of illegal behaviors.

…And I have to agree with you, I live in Atlanta and went thru the whole process, I speak spanish as much as english, sometimes I have friends and relatives come from abroad to see me.

I took this one of them last weekend to Buckhead (a clubs area in downtown), my friend spoke english as well, he came as a tourist for 15 days, as we walked from the car to the club and when done from the club to the car many whites and blacks called us all kinds of stuff, “hommies”, “wetbacks”…even a guard came to us and asked us you have money to come in or what?, just because we were undecided on which one to enter, many people would look at us funny or started mumbling and then broke in laughs, we were well dressed, we are not bad looking or short, just “brown” and the most funnny thing is I came by plane, lol, but we thought to ourselves those actions believe it or not creates some kind of resentment… and my friend left with a bad impression of the people of Atlanta, that there is still a lot of racism in the south, we did not even turn our heads or responded, they must have thought we did not spoke english, experiences like these turn people hostile.

…going back to the subject, yes, let’s buy Mexico, you should see the girls in Veracruz, I have been there, uff, nice.

Enrique.

Posted by: Enrique at April 11, 2006 03:25 PM

tony,

“If I took flags as seriously as the ideas they represent, then I would be outside right now, burning the American flag that hangs over my door. This myopic notion is an embarrassment us all.”

That is your right as guaranteed by the Constitution.

At the moment these folks have no rights under our Constitution, they are here illegally, and you don’t get that.
Nobody put a gun to these folks head, they came here voluntarily, with the aim of taking advantage of what America has to offer, the least they could do is show a little respect.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 03:27 PM

My Mother-in-law still speaks louder if a waiter has a hard time understanding what she wants. I had no idea so many Hispanics were deaf. :)

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 03:29 PM

“That is your right as guaranteed by the Constitution.

At the moment these folks have no rights under our Constitution, they are here illegally, and you don’t get that.
Nobody put a gun to these folks head, they came here voluntarily, with the aim of taking advantage of what America has to offer, the least they could do is show a little respect.”

Yes - and don’t you love the ideas of freedom contained in the Constitution. I don’t see the Constitution as something to guard - it’s something to share. Sharing and encouraging freedom grows freedom… guarding it tightly only limits freedom. Nothing but good will happen by sharing the ideas within the Constitution with others. If we want these people to be good Americans, we should allow them to act as Americans.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 03:37 PM

I can’t say nothing but that I share Tony’s ideas, well said man. RV.

Posted by: RV. at April 11, 2006 03:43 PM

tony,

I mean no disrespect.
All of us here are immigrants, or desendents thereof, and all have been, in one way or another, assimilated into American society.

I personally am kind of a heintz 57 variety of American, so I identify with “American” culture, and if you are in my neighborhood, and you work in a service position please do me the courtesy of speaking English, and I would expect that they would feel the same if I went to their neighborhood, or to Mexico, or to France, or to China.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 03:43 PM

Rocky -

No disrespect at all. I’m so Scottish my skin is translucent. (A Scottsman in the sun is like a fork in the microwave.) I am sometimes pastey white - other times, I am tomato red.

I have no blood connection to Hispanics (that I know of - but I do have the Heinz 57 background on one side) but I am the second generation born in America on my Mother’s side. I deeply respect the values and ideas that are America, and I can see no reason at all to be selfish with them. That only limits how great our country can be.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 03:48 PM

tony,

“Yes - and don’t you love the ideas of freedom contained in the Constitution. I don’t see the Constitution as something to guard - it’s something to share. Sharing and encouraging freedom grows freedom… guarding it tightly only limits freedom. Nothing but good will happen by sharing the ideas within the Constitution with others. If we want these people to be good Americans, we should allow them to act as Americans.”

Ok, fine.
Then we must expect them to follow our laws even if it means going through the hassle of coming here legaly.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 03:50 PM

Tony, if you would accept a little advise, don’t get d.a.n. started, he arises no healthy conversation… injects hate, fear, racism and changes around whatever you say, …and he is never wrong, most stubborn guy on earth, I have nothing against jehova witnesses and I’m sorry if I’m offending anyone but I think the guy used to be one of them, there is nothing but their truth and don’t respect anyone else’s ideas, you’ll see. RV.

Posted by: RV at April 11, 2006 03:51 PM

tony

They are here because of the greatness, and power and freedom and glorious nature of these United States. Don’t try to change it, become part of it. Help it get better. If one is still so proud of their Hispanic heritage that they just can’t live without it, then go home. The signs in LA that said “Reconquista” and “This is our country, not yours” are a danger sign. That to me means we have been invaded. The businesses that knowingly hire illegal aliens should come under the condemnation of the law.

Now what exists is that the welfare state is using my tax dollars to allow an illegal alien to go to college at a tuition rate that is less than what the taxpayer can get. The food stamps, medical care, education is all paid for with peoples money that they have no right to. They largely pay no taxes.

An additional problem is that with all the bogus documents and identification, there is not way to tell which one is Sanchez or Rodriguez, or Diaz and so on. Amnesty is no answer. The next time around it will not be 12 million it will be 40 million. All illegal aliens should be given a short period of time to return to their native country and apply for entry the legal way. After the short period has past, then give law enforcement at all levels the authority and instruction to arrest and detain for federal authorities for the purpose of deportation.

If any of you thing this is slowly going to go away, then think what will happen when Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador (I think I got all his names) in the new president of Mexico. He is a friend of Hugo the Great from Venezuela.

It is a felony to be an illegal alien in Mexico. Let us reciprocate. In the Mexican constitution are several references that need to be looked at.

Article 33 “Foreigners may not in any way participate in the political affairs of the country”.

Also in Article 33 “the Federal Executive shall have the exclusive power to compel any foreigner whose remaining he may deem inexpedient to abandon the national territory immediately and without the necessity of previous legal action.” Meaning without due process

There are more citations; this is only a sample.

Article 32 “Mexicans shall have priority over foreigners under equality of circumstances for all classes of concessions and for all employment, positions, or commissions of the Government in which the status of citizenship is not indispensable.”

Article 32 also bans foreigners immigrants, and naturalized citizens of Mexico of serving as military officers, airline crews, chiefs of seaports and airports.

Article 55 requires all lawmakers to be “a Mexican by birth”.

Article 130 disallows non-Mexicans to become members of the clergy.

Article 27 says, “Only Mexicans by birth or naturalization and Mexican companies have the right to acquire ownership of lands, waters, and their appurtenances, or to obtain concessions for the exploitation of mines or of waters.”

Article 11 guarantees federal protection against “undesirable aliens resident in the country”.

Article 16 gives Mexican citizens the power of arrest.

One of the organizers of the marches all over the country is La Voz de Aztlan. Their web site has this quote “Our duty is to take back what is ours, even it it means carrying out total genocide.” That does not sound like somebody looking for work. That sounds like a member of an invading force. They encourage their latinos to read “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”.

And they don’t speak English or even try to learn it. See, the pieces of the puzzle are fitting together. They don’t even hide the fact they are here to take over. So, we have Islamic terriorists on one hand and soon to be Socialist terrorist on the other hand.

Do we have a serious situation here, folks.
You bet your sweet bippy we do!!

Posted by: tomh at April 11, 2006 03:55 PM

“Ok, fine.
Then we must expect them to follow our laws even if it means going through the hassle of coming here legaly.”

Yes - I do agree with this, but here’s the catch.

If I had to prove that my Grandmother was herer legally, I would have no idea where to begin or if it was even possible. Does that make me an illegal?

here’s another over-the-top saying: America is at it’s best when it gives everyone an initial benefit of the doubt.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 03:55 PM

RV,

I have actually found Dan, posts well thought out and researched if a little too verbose.
He can be stubborn though, I will give you that.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 03:56 PM

tony,

“If I had to prove that my Grandmother was herer legally, I would have no idea where to begin or if it was even possible. Does that make me an illegal?”

I assume that you have a birth certificate, or a means of knowing which hospital you were born in.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 03:57 PM

tony wrote: Again my point back to you would be that you have stated mostly local stats… a few national, but…

tony,
I’ve spent years looking at this problem, and I’ve lived in or visited 34 of all the 50 U.S. states, and own land in OK, TX, and NM.

Sorry, tony, but what you are meekly implying is flat wrong. Please see my web-site if you’d like to know more. See the GAO reports (GAO-5646R and GAO-05-377R). They include both federal and state statistics for arrests and convictions. The GAO-5646R report includes California, Texas, and Arizona. Also, if you’d like, I’ll be more than happy to show you crime rate statistics from Utah, Georgia, Florida, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Colorado, Missouri, Alabama, Arkansas, Nevada, New Mexico, Louisianna, and Mississippi.

In fact, here’s a quick summary.
Do you think the higher crime rates in southern states is a mere coincidence? Please look at crime rate statistics for Utah, Georgia, Florida, Texas, Arizona, Nevada, and New Mexico, and South Carolina. Then, try to convince the U.S. citizens of those states that there is no crime due to illegal aliens (not to mention the other numerous problems stemming from illegal immigration).

Also, bear in mind one very important fact.
A crime by and illegal alien is a crime that should have never existed.

And please don’t respond as a few others have:

So you would prefer they were murdered by a US citizen?

I’ll come unhinged if I hear that one more time.

Tony, see my post above? That is not merely anectdotal.

Do you seriously think your single anectdotal statement that Cary, NC (voted #6 safest cities in the country) is anything but anectdotal. Have you visited S.C. lately?
Except for D.C., South Carolina has the highest violent crime rate in the U.S., and it is due in part to illegal aliens. 29% of all fedaral and state prisoners are illegal aliens.

Do you know what is another huge part of the problem in South Carolina? Senator Lindsey Graham is the problem. He said “illegal aliens contribute to the economy and take difficult jobs such as landscaping” and he noted that “as a golfer, I probably benefit from their labor.”

Visit issues2000.org and see all the other senators and representatives that voted:
NO on reporting illegal aliens who receive hospital treatment.
YES on extending Immigrant Residency rules.
YES on more immigrant visas for skilled workers.

How’s do you feel about
Illegal Aliens Working in North Carolina Aviation Jobs?

You might want to do a bit of research first. I have been for years. I don’t hate illegal aliens that come here for work, but that does not mean I condone illegal immigration.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 11, 2006 04:00 PM

I do have a birth certificate and a NC driver license and a passport…

but if someone were to ask me were my Grandparents here illegally…??? I would hope it would not matter. I would like to afford as much of this past treatment to future generations of new Americans.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 04:01 PM

In order to become citizens the illegals will have to work towards it over the next ten years. It’s not automatic. In other words, I think the current proposal covers your concerns Dawn.

Posted by: Max at April 11, 2006 04:06 PM

tony,

“but if someone were to ask me were my Grandparents here illegally…???”

What difference does it make if your grandmother was here legaly?

The fourteenth ammentment states;

“Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”

So where does your grandmother’s legality fit into the picture?

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 04:07 PM

In order to become citizens the illegals will have to work towards it over the next ten years. It’s not automatic. In other words, I think the current proposal covers your concerns Dawn.

We can not deport 12 million illegal immigrants.
But, what we can do, which will encourage many to leave voluntarily, is:

• Secure the borders (with resources we already have and only 1% of the total active duty military, guard, and reserves)


• Require ALL employers to use the Social Security Verification System for ALL hires.


• Deny ALL illegal alien births automatic citizenship. End anchor-baby blue passports;


• Deny ALL illegal aliens a FREE K-12 education.


• Deny ALL illegal aliens ANY and ALL ‘public benefits’.


• Deny ALL illegal aliens driver’s licenses and in-state college tuition.


• Deport all incarcerated criminal illegal aliens immediately;


• Verify ALL voter’s citizenship, before permission to vote.

A biometrics system would help too.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 11, 2006 04:13 PM

DAN -

You miss my point. I knwo there are issues with illegal immigrants, and I think one of the major issues with crimes rates relating to illegal immigrants is that they are here illegally. I wonder what the crime rates against illegal immigrants if they were not too afraid to report them.

My point above is that some places work and live with this issue very well - other do not. I have a very positive impression because I have had very positive experiences. It seems that you have not - and I would equally weigh your suggestions with mine.

For me, the bottom line is that we are a much better society because of the people here. I would suggest extending a legal status to everyone here, and expediting the removal of those who do not follow the laws quickly. My allowing a hidden illegal society, we prevent ourselves from truly understanding what is really going on. My mention of Cary as proof of the good that comes from these people is as anectdotal as your suggestion that the rise in crime rates is directly related to the rise in illegal population. No one knows because the truth is hidden from us.

There is good and there is bad. Allowing everyone is impossible, but the idea of kicking all illegals out is equally impossible.

To me, the idea that someone could enter our country illegally, find their way to a decent place to live and find work… and send large amounts of the money they make back home… wow, those are the kind of people I want playing on my team.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 04:17 PM

Rocky,
D.A.N. answered your question. He wants to amend the constitution so that who your parents are determines your US citizenship.

By the way, D.A.N., I’ve been meaning to ask, do you have a source that 32% of illegal immigrants are on welfare other than the opinion piece you always cite (that one doesn’t give their source)? I have a hard time believing it but I’d like to check it out. Thanks

Posted by: Brian Poole at April 11, 2006 04:20 PM

Rocky -

The point is not about my Grandmother’s or my legal status - it’s about the opportunity and hospitality that was afforded her. It seems extremely disingenuous to take advantage of the opportunity then and then turn around and prevent the same for others now.

People here are speaking of crime and ills on society like it is a hereditary defect with Hispanics. I say it is a defect with the life we force them to live.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 04:23 PM

You know - we have a very large Asian (Indian, Korean, Chinese) population as well as a large African population here in Cary.

I’ve never even questioned their status… what kind of a liberal am I???

(Personally, it’s kind of a positive way to live. Being suspicious of your neighbors is a bad way to live.)

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 04:34 PM

tony,

“People here are speaking of crime and ills on society like it is a hereditary defect with Hispanics. I say it is a defect with the life we force them to live.”

I have not spoken at all about crime, and in my experience here in Phoenix other that the crimes that the Latinos continue to perpetrate on themselves, it hasn’t really been an issue.
What does happen here is that the relitively cheap labor drives down the wages of everybody in those fields.
In that sense I am lucky to be in a field that requires technical skills, and as such my wages have remained unaffected.
My next door neighbor and his wife are collage educated Mexicans, they are no different than anyone else on our block, and have in fact done a great job upgrading the house they live in. We live in a neighborhood that was an established white middle class area built in 1951, and just a few years ago, when the original owners either retired and moved out or died is when the area started to change.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 04:38 PM

tony,

tony wrote: DAN
You miss my point. I knwo there are issues with illegal immigrants, and I think one of the major issues with crimes rates relating to illegal immigrants is that they are here illegally. I wonder what the crime rates against illegal immigrants if they were not too afraid to report them.

Oh. OK. maybe crime against illegal aliens that illegal aliens don’t report is unfortunate, but it is their own fault. Besides, you’d be surprised. Illegal aliens in Dallas and Fort Worth do call the police. Like Los Angeles, they no longer fear the police. The police can no longer keep up with it. That is why they issued Special Order 40 in Los Angeles. The police are now afraid of the illegal immigrants, and have given up trying to determine their immigration status. Same here in Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona, and many other states.

Tony, have you really researched the crime issue very well? People should see these tragedies before trying to make further excuses for illegal aliens. Crime rates are increasing in many states. The reason is obvious. I live a few minutes north of Dallas, Texas. There are over 1 million illegal aliens in just the north east quadrant of Texas.

GAO report (GAO-5646R) lists arrests for a study population of 55,322 illegal aliens in Texas, California, and Arizona.
The following federal and state arrests are for more than mere illegal immigration violations:
Arrest Offenses: 45% of illegal alien offenses were for
drugs and immigration:
Criminal offense: Drugs; Number: 166,722; 24%
Criminal offense: Immigration; Number: 144,166; 21%
Criminal offense: Traffic violations; Number: 55,060; 8%
Criminal offense: Assault; Number: 50,958; 7%
Criminal offense: Obstruction of justice; Number: 45,632; 7%
Criminal offense: Burglary; Number: 38,689; 6%
Criminal offense: Larceny/theft; Number: 31,883; 5%
Criminal offense: Fraud, forgery, and counterfeiting; Number: 25,773; 4%
Criminal offense: Weapons violations; Number: 22,263; 3%
Criminal offense: Motor vehicle theft; Number: 20,950; 3%
Criminal offense: Robbery; Number: 15,305; 2%
Criminal offense: Stolen property; Number: 13,415; 2%
Criminal offense: Sex offense; Number: 11,833; 2%
Criminal offense: Disorderly conduct; Number: 8,768; 1%
Criminal offense: Property damage; Number: 6,478; 1%
Criminal offense: Homicide; Number: 5,992; 1%
Criminal offense: Kidnapping; Number: 3,236; under 1%
Criminal offense: Arson; Number: 457; under 1%
Criminal offense: Other; Number: 24,310; 4%
Total offenses: Number: 691,890;
Total offenses in federal prisons: Number: 267,709;
Total offenses in state prisons and local jails: Number: 424,181;

For illegal aliens in federal prisons, almost 90% of study population of 55,322 were convicted for immigration or drug offenses. 21% are drug offenses. Many of the immigration offenses are repeat offenses. Some illegal aliens have been deported dozens of times.
Offense: Immigration: Number: 12,694; 68%
Offense: Drugs: Number: 3,978; 21%
Offense: Unknown: Number: 1,183; 6%
Offense: Weapons, explosives, arson: 251; 1%
Offense: Fraud, bribery, extortion: Number: 185; 1%
Offense: Burglary, larceny, property crimes: Number: 95; 1%
Offense: Assault: Number: 41; under 1%
Offense: Robbery: Number: 28; under 1%
Offense: Kidnapping: Number: 26; under 1%
Offense: Court, corrections: Number: 25; under under 1%
Offense: Homicide: Number: 13; Percent: under 1%
Offense: Other: Number: 62; under under 1%

[] On 13-Nov-2005, Brian Jackson, a Dallas policeman was shot and killed by an illegal alien, Juan Lizcano. Lizcano had become drunk and went to the home of his ex-girfriend to threaten her. As the police pursued Lizcano after he fled the woman’s home, he shot Officer Jackson, who died later in the hospital. Officer Jackson was remembered by his fellow police as someone who loved his job and always went the extra mile.
[] Then, there is Jorge Hernandez, aka Jorge Soto, who killed Min Soon Chang, an 18-year-old college freshman, in a terrible head-on wreck while Hernandez was driving drunk. He had been arrested 3 previous times for drunk driving in 3 other states, and he had been deported to Mexico 17 times! Don’t you wonder why illegal aliens aren’t deported instantly after being arrested for drunk driving?
[] Debbie Thomas, who was the mother of three, was killed in a head-on collision on Christmas Eve 2003 when her car was struck by a car being driven in the wrong direction by illegal alien, Narciso Garcia-Jimenez. He later escaped from his hospital bed and is still at large. The car he drove had no inspection sticker and was registered to another person. When Debbie’s mom learned that her daughter’s killer survived and escaped after being treated at the hospital, she said she felt “angry, bitter and sad, all at once.”
[] In Atlanta, Georgia: Mexican Miguel Carrasco raped a female victim in front of her four year old child and two minors; California Mexican Zacarias Camacho committed lewd acts upon a child under 14; El Salvadoran Oswaldo Martinez raped, sodomized and murdered a 16 year old; MS-13 gang member Reinaldo Ramos convicted of 2nd degree sexual offense for brutal gang rape of 16 year old girl.
[] Jose Ramirez is every American father’s nightmare. The illegal alien beat up a 15-year-old girl after whistling at her. He broke her nose, fractured a bone in her face and produced cuts requring 30 stitches. The man worked in construction in Spotsylvania, Virginia, where the attack occurred, and resisted arrest to the point where police had to taser him.
[] Jose Raul Pena, earlier deported for cocaine possession, used his little daughter as a human shield in an hours-long Los Angeles shootout with police on July 10. Pena and Suzie were both killed. During the incident, Pena used a 9-millimeter Beretta pistol which had been stolen last year in a burglary in Oregon. His office at the car dealership contained a bag of cocaine and a half-drunk bottle of Tequila — consistent with the illegal Pena’s previous deportation for cocaine possession. Videotape captured images of Pena shooting at the police while holding his daughter, yet his relatives are questioning not only whether he used his daughter as a shield, but whether he was even armed at all, according to the Los Angeles Times.
[] Esmerelda Nava, age 4, was recently strangled, molested and killed by an illegal alien who had been deported in 2003. The accused killer is Cornelio Rivera Zamites, who had been residing in Gainsville, Georgia. Esmerelda went with her parents to visit the 24-year-old Zamites. At some point late Saturday night, the child’s mother realized the girl was missing. A police officer found her body early the next morning in nearby woods. An article of Zamites clothing was close by and he was gone. Zamites had been deported for driving under the influence, as well as having no license or insurance. At least his illegal status was duly noted.
[] The nation’s highways have become far more dangerous since they have been turned into smuggling thruways for criminals. Nineteen-year-old Travis Smith of Mesa, Arizona, was killed in 2002 by a carload of illegal aliens being smuggled to Pennsylvania. The accident occurred near Monticello in southeastern Utah, as the car driven by illegal alien smuggler Isidro Aranda-Flores plowed head-on into Smith’s 1966 Mustang. The smuggler apparently fell asleep at the wheel.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 11, 2006 04:47 PM

DAN -
Can you point to proof that the rise in crime is directly related to the rise in the illegal population? Can you also explain how allowing illegals to gain legal status would negatively impact the US?

Just curious…

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 04:53 PM

Tony
Nobody is forcing illegal aliens to live in any forced condition. They live the way they want to. They broke the law to get here and need to pay the penalty for breaking the law. It is really simple.

Rocky
Support me if you can. Many times on the evening news in Phoenix when there drive by shootings and homicides, are there not also an a report from the news agency that refers to many of them as “undocumented nationals”? The point I am making is that there is far too much crime from illegal aliens for the numbers they represent here. Also, nearer the border there is so much crime done by the illegal aliens that it is not news. They trespass onto peoples proberty and steal and have even killed their livestock and poultry. Rocky, do you know anybody near the border that can substantiate what I have said.

Posted by: tomh at April 11, 2006 04:57 PM

[] Rosa came to the United States because, after the death of her husband, she could not afford to take care of her four children. Leaving them with her mother, she worked two jobs and slept in a small room with another immigrant so that she could send back money to feed her children. While in America, she became pregnant. Rather than sponge off the welfare system, use the baby as an anchor, abort, mistreat, or abandon her, she sought out an adoption agency, at risk of being deported, and gave the baby up for adoption. By doing so, she risked being ostracized by her family and friends. I can’t think of anyone more responsible or devoted to family that I know. For every horrific crime you post, I bet there are 100-1000 immigrants who are working hard, trying to support their families.

d.a.n.,
The real problem I have with your posts is that they try to stir people up against hispanic immigrants. I think that illegal immigration is a problem. I think the border needs to be secure. But I don’t want my daughter to have to prove shes a citizen every day of her life because she is hispanic. I don’t want people blaming her birth mother for crime and violence, and lumping her into the same category as drug dealers because of where she came from. Talk about problems, fine, talk about costs, fine, but don’t post these inflammatory individual accounts and try to claim that they are representative of illegal immigrants as a whole, because they are not.

Posted by: Brian Poole at April 11, 2006 05:04 PM

Max,

It is eleven years not ten, they mentioned that to grant green card they have to have a working permit for two periods of three years each (six years total)

…in which they have to maintain a job, get up to date with taxes and after that they need to wait five more years to be citizens.

…and INS investigates well before anyone getting citizenship and it is reversible in case the grounds for citizenship were others than the ones appointed by the solicitor.

I just read about a lady that applied to be a citizen and investigators found she was wanted in Mexico over the investigation of a murder, they caught her and deported her, she lost the green card as well, right on time you would say…

…but I’ve learned about people that has hidden information like that and even after been granted citizenship it gets revoked, nothing under the sun is secret says the bible so if they are criminals and try to get citizenship, we will know and they will be caught…in time. RV.

Posted by: RV. at April 11, 2006 05:07 PM

“Nobody is forcing illegal aliens to live in any forced condition. They live the way they want to. They broke the law to get here and need to pay the penalty for breaking the law. It is really simple.”

They live the way they want to…??? Are you sure about that? Kind of like homeless people prefer not to have a mortgage hanging over their heads…?

And why do they need to pay a penalty? Does it serve some greater good? Other than the status of being illegal, what direct damage has their being here done? Or is this more like hazing to join a Fraternity?

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 05:12 PM

If we are serious about stopping the flood of illegal immigrants from our pourous southern border, we will not build a wall which will become nothing more than a modern-day Magenot Line. Instead, a two-step process would have to be implemented. First, change the law so that illegal aliens’ children will not qualify to be US citizens. Also, the law must be changed that will make employing these illegal aliens a treasonous charge, punishable with mandatory jail time and confiscation of any wealth gained by the illegal employment in addition to a stiff punative fine which is in proportion to one’s wealth (i.e. 40% of total wealth will have the same effect on a multimillionare as someone making 50K), no exemptions and no exceptions. Second, the US government will exercise eminent domain and buy all land it does not currently own from the Mexican border to a distance of 2 miles inland. The feds would then build a simple chain-link fence on the border and put another at the limit of its boundry. Within these 2 fences it would then place nothing stationary, but armed Army choppers would routinely patrol this area and anti-personnel mines would be both planted and dropped from the air. Approperiate signage would be placed on the Mexican side to warn them that they are about to illegally enter an active military range where there is a better than even chance that they will be maimed or killed. The Army will be given shoot-to-kill orders.

This would settle this problem.

Posted by: Marvin at April 11, 2006 05:21 PM

tomh,

“Support me if you can. Many times on the evening news in Phoenix when there drive by shootings and homicides, are there not also an a report from the news agency that refers to many of them as “undocumented nationals”?”

Sorry I didn’t jump in earlier, I had a 2:00pm appointment to have my house appraised.

There has been a rise in the types of crimes that you cited, as well as car theft and car hijackings. Most however seem to be purpetrated in the areas that they have chosen to live (here in Phoenix that is mostly in the central areas and on the west side), though sometimes the crimes have lapped over to other neighborhoods as well.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 05:24 PM

Marvin,

“First, change the law so that illegal aliens’ children will not qualify to be US citizens.”

That would require a change in the Constitution, a process that will take years.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 05:27 PM

Marvin,

“Second, the US government will exercise eminent domain and buy all land it does not currently own from the Mexican border to a distance of 2 miles inland. The feds would then build a simple chain-link fence on the border and put another at the limit of its boundry. Within these 2 fences it would then place nothing stationary, but armed Army choppers would routinely patrol this area and anti-personnel mines would be both planted and dropped from the air. Approperiate signage would be placed on the Mexican side to warn them that they are about to illegally enter an active military range where there is a better than even chance that they will be maimed or killed. The Army will be given shoot-to-kill orders.”

And just where do you propose the money will come from?
This could cost into the trillions of dollars to implement, and that would be if all the land was level.
Eminent domain? Oh, please.

This just ain’t gonna happen.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 05:31 PM

Brian Poole wrote: d.a.n., The real problem I have with your posts is that they try to stir people up against hispanic immigrants.

False. First, I’ve said many times (repeatedly) that I don’t hate or blame illegal aliens for coming here for work. But, illegal aliens do not all come here for work. With 32% of all illegal aliens on welfare and 29% of all prisoners are illegal aliens, it appears that “American Dream” is, for some, more that just a job. Crime and Welfare is part of the dream too. Second Also, I never mentioned race. You did. I’ve always said: illegal alien. So, it is you that jumps to conclusions. You rushed to a racist conclusion. Shame on you.

Brian Poole wrote: But I don’t want my daughter to have to prove shes a citizen every day of her life because she is hispanic.

No one should be blamed for anything they are not guilty of. Racism is wrong. But, race has nothing to do with illegal immigration, and it really gets old seeing people continually trying to play the race card.

Brian Poole,
Once again, I never mentioned race.
You did.
Illegal aliens are of all races.
If your daughter is a legal U.S. citizen, there should be no problem.

Just because anyone pays attention to the rising crime rates due to illegal aliens, does not mean they are racist or trying to fuel racism.
In fact, the people that fuel the racism the most are the pro-illegal-alien sympathizers, making excuses for illegal aliens, and calling those opposed to illegal immigration racists. Classic.

Talk about problems, fine, talk about costs, fine, but don’t post these inflammatory individual accounts …

I did not post only individual accounts. I posted numerous nation wide accounts, reports from the GAO, DOJ, BJS, CIS, and other credible sources from many states. Your assertion that it is anectdotal is in error. Illegal aliens have increased crime rates in many cities, and it is getting worse. You may not want to hear it, but that is a fact supported by ample studies and research. So get used to it. I plan to talk a lot more about crime, and the burdens on our systems. You have neither the right or the power to tell me what not to post.

… try to claim that they are representative of illegal immigrants as a whole, because they are not.

Wrong again, I never said criminal illegal aliens were representative of immigrants as a whole. For you to accuse me of that makes your statements more out of line than anything I’ve said.

Once again, I’ve said numerous times that crime is only part of many problems stemming from illegal aliens:

• increased crime rates;


• burden on education systems;


• burden on healthcare systems;


• burden on hospital systems;


• burden on welfare systems; 32% of illegal aliens are on welfare (Jan-2004);


• burden on Social Security system;


• burden on Medicaid system;


• burden on border patrol systems; ever increasing numbers are needed;


• burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;


• burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;


• burden on prison systems; 29% of prisoners in state and federal prisons are illegal aliens (Sep-2004);


• burden on voting systems; voter fraud with fake ID;

You may think you are being kind an benevolent, but U.S. citizens are suffering due to the chaos and societal disorder being created by massive, uncontrolled immigration.

Lastly, no reforms are possible until one fundamental change is made first. All voters need to do is the one simple, common-sense, no-brainer, non-partisan, safe, peaceful, inexpensive, and responsible thing voters were supposed to be doing all along:

Vote out (or recall) all irresponsible incumbents, always, every election, until no more irresponsible incumbents exist, and government finally agrees to pass the many badly-needed, common-sense, responsible reforms that incumbents have refused to pass for so many decades.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 11, 2006 05:42 PM

Max,
‘In other words, I think the current proposal covers your concerns Dawn.’

A proposal. I don’t remember the last time a ‘proposal’ passed without being doctored in one way or another.

They will wait for this to die down, and our attention is drawn away to another issue, then sneak something in that most of us do not approve of.

Posted by: dawn at April 11, 2006 05:56 PM

Tony, if you would accept a little advise, don’t get d.a.n. started, he arises no healthy conversation… injects hate, fear, racism and changes around whatever you say, …and he is never wrong, most stubborn guy on earth, I have nothing against jehova witnesses and I’m sorry if I’m offending anyone but I think the guy used to be one of them, there is nothing but their truth and don’t respect anyone else’s ideas, you’ll see. RV.

R.V.
It was you and others that play the race card.

R.V. wrote:
d.a.n. you along with David Remer and JC just love the illegal aliens subject and the negative side of having them here.

I’ve never addressed R.V. until he implied that I, David Remer, and JC are racists.

R.V. is just mad because I shot his lame arguments full of holes, and he knows it. Now, he is trying to recruit others against me. How revealing.

You decide for yourself.

Illegal immigration is not about race, and those that try to play the race card are hurting their own cause.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 11, 2006 05:57 PM

Dan,
You still didn’t put up any sources other than one opinion peice for your 32% figure. I’m not saying that you are racist, I’m saying that the kinds of arguments you make can be easily turned to racism. And you are trying to apply them to all illegal immigrants, otherwise you would be saying that those people who committed those crimes should be punished, and not using it as an argument against illegal immigration.

I think that there is a parallel with the arguments against gun control and the arguments about illegal immigration and crime. Most crime associated with illegal immigrants is drug-related, I would bet (stats, D.A.N.?). There is a huge profit margin for the drug trade. Despite years of massive enforcement and billions of dollars, we haven’t managed to stop it. Drugs and drug dealers are not going to stop coming into the country, they have too good of an incentive. Therefore, if we massively beef up border restriction, who is going to make it in? The hard-working, family-oriented benefits to society, or the drug dealing, violent gang members? Hint, the drug dealers have the money and the means.

My point is, if you take away border crossing, then only criminals will cross borders (or something like that).

Posted by: Brian Poole at April 11, 2006 06:13 PM

I don’t understand the “you broke the law, you you need to pay the price” concept - as it relates to this.

In college, I broke pretty much every controlled substance law (except intent to sell…wasn’t much of a business man back then.) I now own my own busniess - I’m a dad - I’m a landlord… Should I go back and serve some sort of penalty for infractions in the past? If you could point to someone who was wronged by my illegal actions… then maybe. If you could point to harm done to society… maybe. But to require that people pay for breaking laws that are more protocol… ???

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 06:30 PM

Tony:

Despite the fact that you are now a business owning, dad and landlord, if you were caught currently violating the law, you would still be liable for prosecution. Illegal immigrants are currently violating the law, therefore they are eligible for prosecution.

Your point would be valid if someone intended to prosecute persons who had at one time resided illegally in the US and then left. Being here illegally is against the law and is subject to prosecution.

I would also like to point out that comparisons between the wave of European immigration prior to WWI and the new hispanic immigration movement are invalid. To accurately assess these two events you need to take into account the fact that the US did not assume a huge financial burden by accepting immigrants prior to the enactment of social welfare legislation. European immigrants came to this country with no safety net and did not represent a looming fiscal liability. That is certainly not the case with the current immigration wave.

Posted by: goodkingned at April 11, 2006 07:27 PM

Here’s the basic issue facing people wanting to come here legally. It’s costs money… more money than all but the wealthiest in most countries can afford.

My employee - who has dual citizenship but was currently living in Ecuador - had to pay several thousand dollars in fees + an equal amount in brides to move the process along and get his wife the papers to come into the US to live with him and work. Both of them had to have proof of employement in the US. It took over 2 years, which I am told is extremely quick.

Basically, unless you are rich, or have strong contacts within the US, coming here legally is all but impossible. So, do we only extend the welcome mat to the wealthy of other countries? Who posting here would be living here if we had those immigration policies in the past?

Do we really want to turn the US into a gated community?

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 07:53 PM

the average monthly income in Ecuador is $87

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 07:55 PM

Tony:

Yes, I do think that prospective immigrants should have some visable means of supporting themselves when they get here. The cost of supporting indigent immigrants is beoming a luxury that the US can ill afford.

I do support a guest worker program that would allow otherwise ineligible persons to enter the US. Guest worker programs could be tied to employment offers and properly monitored to ensure that ineligible applicants (criminals etc.) are excluded. With the earnings from their employment in the US, guest workers would have sufficient revenue to meet the financial requirements for completing the citizenship process.

What do you think? It’s not an open door and but it’s not nailed shut.

Posted by: goodkingned at April 11, 2006 08:13 PM

“What do you think? It’s not an open door and but it’s not nailed shut.”

OK - it’s getting there. I like having official ways of getting people into the country without buying a ticket. I like removing all the illegal aspects of their travels and time here. No more human cargo movers, no more ricky trips across the border… not more business men/snakes preying on them while they are here - hold the deporation threat over their heads. They pay taxes, make a living, become the next genereation of the American dream. Those who come here illegally will need to have some sort of issue to face, but I’m very wary of closing the borders.

Many of the people have crap for lives - no wonder they want to come here. I think we should try to live up to their expectations.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 08:23 PM

One need only watch the third world mutts demonstrating in our streets to realize that if they dont get what they want there will be a war in the streets like we have never seen before. You idiots can argue the pros and cons forever or at least untill one of the wetbacks cut your throat. Thinking, courageous people will stand up to the vermin and back up their decision with whatever it takes. If our weak kneed queer representatives dont stand up to these criminals this time you can kiss your country goodby. Deversiffacation is another word for self hate. So to those of you who hate your own culture take your sorry ass somewhere else and let those of us with the balls to stand up for our country take care of business.

Posted by: JC at April 11, 2006 08:51 PM

Tony you are either a moron or a illeagal “guest worker”

Posted by: JC at April 11, 2006 08:54 PM

JC:

In my experience, people who talk like that tend to be the ones hiding behind the women and children when death comes.

Posted by: Aldous at April 11, 2006 09:03 PM

Wow JC. I’m speechless… at least you spelled moron right. (Hint: Illegal - bad spelling kind of takes the sting out of the insult, don’t ya think.)

Was that all you had to say, or would like to add to the conversation?

(Thanks Aldous.)

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 09:09 PM

JC,

“Thinking, courageous people will stand up to the vermin and back up their decision with whatever it takes.”

Wow, thinking, courageous, people huh?

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 09:17 PM

Sorry guys but you made to mad to spell properly. I wonder how many Guest workers can spell deportation?

Posted by: JC at April 11, 2006 09:22 PM

JC,

“Sorry guys but you made to mad to spell properly.”

Pull yourself together son.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 09:25 PM

Aldous In your experience, Im sure what you said fits.

Posted by: JC at April 11, 2006 09:27 PM

“It is understood that the majority of illegal immigrants residing in our Nation are law abiding people trying to make a better life for themselves and their families.”

Regardless of whether they are good or bad; they’re still ILLEGAL! There must be consequences for breaking our laws. We need to secure the border First, then deal with the illegals we have in this country. Though, these wussy Senators will not come up with anything better then the McCain/Kennedy bill; and that means things will get worse.

Posted by: rahdigly at April 11, 2006 09:28 PM

JC -

Why the venom? What has the average “illegal” done to you? Your family? I know quite a few people who hate “illegals” because they take jobs from Americans. If you (using YOU in the broad sense) can’t hold you own against someone who doesn’t even speak English - I don’t think you much of a shot at holding the job anyway.

Also, can you take another shot at the previous post - I don’t quite get what you’re saying… I think you are saying that you were too mad to spell. Why? These are just opinions and ideas - hardly anything to loose sleep over. Relax… share your thoughts… tell us more than how you feel, tell us why you feel that way.

Everyone has a different experience - I’m just curious to know yours.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 09:28 PM

Rocky, D.A.N. answered your question. He wants to amend the constitution so that who your parents are determines your US citizenship.

Well, sort of. From here on out, I would not guarantee citizenship to offspring of any illegal aliens. I said illegal aliens who cross the border, like they do everyday in Laredo, TX, to have their baby in our ERs, should not guarantee U.S. Citizenship. That is an obvious magnet. Illegal aliens have their babies in the U.S. so that they now have and anchor baby so that they can get a permanent blue passport. You think that is fair to the many immigrants trying to get into the country legally.

So, call me what ever you all like.
Call me a racist, xenophobe, etc., etc., etc.
I’ve heard it all.

BTW, do you all know how politically incorrect it is to say illegal aliens increase crime rates? I’m not doin’ myself any favors here at all. People call me racist, xenophobe, and worse. But, I’ll stick by my conclusion, because as far as I can tell from a whole year of research is that illegal aliens are indeed raising the crime rates. It was not always that way. It started a long time ago in Los Angeles, and started spreading to many other states after 1990. Any one, like myself, Frosty Woolridge, D.A. King, Michelle Malkin, Jerry Seper (Washington Times), etc., etc., etc., are not doing ourselves any favors. They are all hated by many, even though most Americans want illegal immigration stopped. But, they are afraid to stand up because the don’t want to be called a racist. I’m hate to have to bring up the crime issue, but it is a fact. It is a serious issue. It in no way says all illegal aliens are criminals (excluding being here illegally). To deny the rising crime rates is a slap in the face of all the victims and their survivors. Where is the compassion for one person murdered every 86 hours by an illegal alien (source: GAO-5646R) ?

By the way, D.A.N., I’ve been meaning to ask, do you have a source that 32% of illegal immigrants are on welfare other than the opinion piece you always cite (that one doesn’t give their source)? I have a hard time believing it but I’d like to check it out. Thanks

See below.

Brain Poole wrote: Dan, You still didn’t put up any sources other than one opinion peice for your 32% figure. I’m not saying that you are racist, I’m saying that the kinds of arguments you make can be easily turned to racism. And you are trying to apply them to all illegal immigrants, otherwise you would be saying that those people who committed those crimes should be punished, and not using it as an argument against illegal immigration.

See below.

• In 2002, at least 32% of illegal aliens received welfare (i.e. 32% = 100 * (3,787,864 / 12,000,000)). NOTE: that is 3,787,864 households!. There is at least one person per household. The percentage is even bigger if you include all known individuals (instead one person per household) to calculate the percentage. That is why some esitmate the total to be higher at 36% to 42%, but I stick to the lower 32% until I have more data.
• from cis.org-articles-2003-back503.html (Center for Immigration Studies), March 2003: In 1996 [10 years ago], 22% of immigrant-headed households used at least one major welfare program, compared to 15% percent of native households.
• …Continuing high rates of immigrant welfare use, coupled with the rapidly growing immigrant population has meant that the number of immigrant households using welfare has increased by 750,000 since 1996, with immigrant households now accounting for 18 percent of all households using a major welfare program, up [in 2003] from 14% in 1996.
• Illegal aliens
are NOT necessarily coming here to work. Lou Dobbs (CNN) recently reported that 33% of our prison population is now comprised of non-citizens. Plus, 36% to 42% percent of illegal aliens are on welfare.
• Half of all welfare usage in the state [CA] is from immigrant households, and 32 percent of all illegal-immigrant households receive benefits from at least one welfare program. The average welfare payment — just counting the four major welfare programs — to illegal-immigrant households is $1,400 a year. Half of all kids in the public-school system are from immigrant families, a dramatic increase in the number of kids in schools without a corresponding increase in the tax base. About half of immigrants are too poor to pay any income taxes. According to a National Academy of Sciences study in 1997, the average immigrant household represented a net fiscal drain on the state of $3,500 a year. If you do the math (not even adjusting for inflation), that would mean that immigrant households cost state and local governments to the tune of $11 billion. No wonder people voted for Proposition 187, including 31 percent of Hispanics. The GOP wasn’t hurt by it. Republicans were getting about 30 percent of the Hispanic vote before Proposition 187, and have been getting about 30 percent since. Their basic political problem with Hispanics is that they are poor, and poor people vote for Democrats.

I realize a lot of people want to call me racist, xenophobe, hard-hearted, etc.
It is not about race.
It is just plain common sense.
The end result of massive, uncontrolled, illegal immigration is chaos, societal disorder, resentments, fuels racism, and we all lose.
The U.S. is not for the public use of the world not more than your home is for the public use of uninvited illegal aliens. The greedy employers that lure (foolishly risking their lives) illegal aliens here for sub-minimum wages should be prosecuted. With a welfare state, as we have it, our numerouse services, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, ERs, hospitals, public and schools are abused. Los Angeles ERs are packed with illegal aliens, while U.S. citizens wait (and die). Illegal aliens are stealing from us. It is that simple. The total cost is a net loss to U.S. citizens. And the cost does not even include the cost of at least one person murdered by an illegal alien every 86 hours (source: GAO 5646R) by an illegal alien.

Please do not make excuses for illegal aliens.
You are selling yourselves out.
There is no mystery why thousands of illegal aliens trespass our borders daily. Most come for jobs, but 32% receive our welfare, and they fill our prisons (not just for illegal trespass either). 29% of all prisoners are illegal aliens (source: washingtondispatch.com).

Lastly, no reforms (not immigration, or any of the many reforms discussed here daily) are possible until one fundamental change is made first. All voters need to do is the one simple, common-sense, no-brainer, non-partisan, safe, peaceful, inexpensive, and responsible thing voters were supposed to be doing all along:

Vote out (or recall) all irresponsible incumbents, always, every election, until no more irresponsible incumbents exist, and government finally agrees to pass the many badly-needed, common-sense, responsible reforms that incumbents have refused to pass for so many decades.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 11, 2006 09:31 PM

Rocky
Its hard for any one with balls to deal with appease before fight types.

Posted by: JC at April 11, 2006 09:32 PM

rahdigly,

“We need to secure the border First, then deal with the illegals we have in this country.”

First of all it ain’t gonna happen cause it will cost too much money and
second of all it ain’t gonna happen cause it will cost too much.

Our economy and cheap labor have become intertwined, and the American people don’t have the will to do it.
Hey I’m all for securing the border.
Where’s the money going to come from?
Where’s the manpower going to come from?

It ain’t gonna happen.

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 09:35 PM

JC,

“Its hard for any one with balls to deal with appease before fight types”

Wow, was that an attempt to insult me?

Posted by: Rocky at April 11, 2006 09:36 PM

“The end result of massive, uncontrolled, illegal immigration is chaos, societal disorder, resentments, fuels racism, and we all lose. “

Our country was founded on uncontrolled immigration. The only non-immigrant people mostly died of small pox. This is the best country in world, by far.

I see your fear - I just don’t see your logic.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 09:37 PM

I have seen to most repugnant, vile redneck learn to speak Spanish. It’s like seeing the slow kid down the street write a best selling novel… simply unexpected and stunning. He’s no longer racist - at least not against Hispanics… once you learn someone’s language, you learn a lot more about them and their culture. It’s hard to ignore the good you find in people.

If for no other reason than bilingual rednecks, I think the borders should remain open.

Posted by: tony at April 11, 2006 09:44 PM

Dawn,

Why don’t you support your president and follow in his shoes like a good Republican. Mr. Bush needs low wage workers to fullfill the needs of his lobbies, friends and interests. Come on you know it’s only jobs that Americans and heads of households in need could take and suppliment their incomes on—so hey grrrl it’s no big deal. Poor people should have to suffer that’s why we make them all pay our taxes now.

See it’s all for the best and Bush is a great great man regardless how he treats others. WE REPUBLICANS ALWAYS SUPPORT OUR PRESIDENT!

Posted by: REPUBBY WOMAN at April 11, 2006 09:45 PM

The time and date to have dealt with the immigration problem was high noon on 9/11/2001.

On that date and at that time, it should have been crystal clear to the entire world to the US needed to get its house in order, pronto. The airlines were already shut down for the foreseeable future. The stock exchange was already down. How hard would it have been to use our military might to lock down this country from border to border; land, sea and air nothing going in or going out except on a strict need to do so basis, need being defined by how it improved homeland security.

Then one by one, every living person should have been screened as to whether they have the right to be in this country or not. If they didn’t have the right to be here, then they should have been sent back where they came from unless someone who does have the right to be here was willing to be responsible for them while they went through the bureaucracy of becoming a citizen.

Sure there would have been hardship; there might even have been serious economic ramifications. There would no doubt have been cries of civil rights violations from the far left.

The fact that we are still trying to get to the bottom of this matter is eloquent proof of the ineffectiveness of Bush, Cheney and the Republican-controlled legislature on addressing homeland security. Security of the entire nation against external enemies is the single most important task and duty of the federal government but Bush, Cheney and Republicans still just don’t seem to get it.

They still think that the way to make the homeland more secure is to send our soldiers off to fight in distant parts of the world having no more to do with our national security than Greenland.

Why is that?

Posted by: wanna_be_jack at April 11, 2006 10:06 PM

Tony As a construction manager for the last 30 years I have delt with these “guest workers” under more circumstances than most of you intellectuals. I find them mostly inept at anything but the more basic tasks. Not speaking english causes monumental confusion in the work place. Because most sub contractors hire these guys to save money on their proposals Im forced to deal with sub quality work. These mexicans are making just enough less than a competent white guy would make to cost him his job. When you get enough wetbacks in a trade or union, they intimadate the whites to the point they wont show up to work. As soon as they have enough bodies to equal or surpass the whites they demand more compensation which ends up costing the consumer even more than if there were no illegals. That as well as the undeniable fact that they cost us in wellfare, health care,prision space,education for their brood, and just plain fear for those of you who are unable or unwilling to defend yourselves, is just plain insanity. Anyone feeling sorry for these criminals or heaven forbid wanting to grant them rights has a serious idealistic mental problem. I guess Savage is right. Liberalism is a mental dissorder.

Posted by: JC at April 11, 2006 10:12 PM

It is a slap in the face for all the legal immigrants who endured the costs, tests, and wait to become citizens while abiding by our laws.

I see the GOP is about to cave in to the illegal’s demonstrations this last week. They can no longer dismiss the losses at the polls in November of their previous 40% of the Hispanic vote. Appeasement for reelectability is now the only avenue left them.

But, the 64 Million dollar question is, if they capitulate and recapture say 35% of their Hispanic vote, how many legal immigrant and white votes will they lose?

The political math just stepped up to calculus.

Posted by: David R. Remer at April 11, 2006 10:12 PM

d.a.n.,

Do not put words in my mouth you cited what I wrote which is again:

R.V. wrote: d.a.n. you along with David Remer and jc just love the illegal aliens subject and the negative side of having them here.

Well, about 9 million of them will be legalized pretty soon.

Do you know that each one of them will pay the government a thousand dollar fine for having entered the country ilegally? plus about $300 a pop for processing fees… not to mention all the fees that the attorneys will charge them for filing…

Do the math and tell me what is the negative side of all those trillion dollars coming back?

They will be taxed now because after the legalization they will prosecute employers who hire illegals.

What is the negative side of them still be able to stay and make payments on everything they owe: houses, cars, credit cards?

Wouldn’t it be a loss to all those companies not getting their money back, most assets are not worth what they are owed, credit card balances are merely a loss, most companies would bankrupt, we are talking about 13 million people.

What about the cost of shipping them out?

Just curious….

R.V.

…This is what I mean when I say you turn around everything people says, you cite what I said and then lie about it, I did not state you were a racist…

… just that you want everybody to believe all illegal aliens are criminals and the responsible of all evil going on in the US, I cited the figures in the department of justice to show