It's the Economy, Stupid

U.S. employers added 211,000 new jobs last month pushing the unemployment rate down to 4.7%, according to the March BLS report. The professional services sector - lawyers, accountants, engineers and architects, led the way with 52,000 new jobs. I know some people prefer bad news and we can find it.

The tightening job market may cause significant increases in wages. Is that a problem? It may also cause the Fed to raise rates to slow the economy down. These are problems of success.

Employment is a lagging indicator and the perception of lower unemployment lags even that. People should start feeling the good news in October or November.

Posted by Jack at April 7, 2006 8:40 PM
Comments
Comment #138928

Honestly, Jack, do you know any other tunes? Can you see any other issues? It is so obvious that you feel so righteous that you can’t take anyone else’s view and feel the need to post the same stuff over and over again.

Such a Republican trait, to repeat, repeat, repeat until folks are sick of hearing about it when their reality is something different.

Posted by: womanmarine at April 7, 2006 9:04 PM
Comment #138929

hopefully the feds will leave the rates alone for awhile.

Posted by: RODNEY BROWN at April 7, 2006 9:04 PM
Comment #138935

Its the environment, stupid.

Posted by: tree hugger at April 7, 2006 9:33 PM
Comment #138938

Jack,

Have you noticed you’re the only player on team red these days? Yup, those stupid Dems are really doing a bad job politically.
last poll: Bush at 35% Also; 50% of the US want Dems back in charge, vs 35% for GOP.
Notice that 35% theme?

tree,
It’s everything

Posted by: Dave at April 7, 2006 9:56 PM
Comment #138944

Hay Jack get off the economy stupid. What we the proles are worried about is the Hispandemic. Forget the Fed. Lets talk about the pussies who are running our country into the ground by caving to the third world scum who are rioting in our streets. Whats the matter no balls?

Posted by: jc at April 7, 2006 10:16 PM
Comment #138948

Jack,
“Employment is a lagging indicator and the perception of lower unemployment lags even that. People should start feeling the good news in October or November.”

What leading indicators lead you to say this?

Rodney,
It’s likely the Fed will raise its rate to 5% next meeting, and probably continue beyond that point. The original target was 4.5 to 5%, so that’s a cause for concern.

Posted by: phx8 at April 7, 2006 10:32 PM
Comment #138949

Jack,

If it was the economy Kerry would have been elected. As you recall during the election cycle W was one of few presidents to ever lose jobs during his tenure. But, woe is to us….instead of it being “the economy, stupid” it’s GW spin….okay, forget spin…it’s downright lies.

You are correct that the economy is looking good. I’ll certainly not argue that point. I do think the tax cuts have helped. However, this administration has been spending money like drunken sailors. Before you go blaming it on congress please remember two things; the Republicans control both houses in congress and W has the ability to veto any spending bill he doesn’t like….hell, Clinton even did that on several occassions. Why did he do it…to get spending under control.

Either we raise taxes to increase tax revenue and the Republican spending spree or we cut spending….which will it be? The Republicans have voted for option three….charge it! And W has signed every single spending bill.

Good things some professions are getting jobs….particularly lawyers. I here there are several folks in the WH that may need their services.

Regards,

Posted by: Tom l at April 7, 2006 10:35 PM
Comment #138954

‘and W has the ability to veto any spending bill he doesn’t like…”

It would be much better if the line item veto could be used again. Being able to mark out items,send them back, and make them be DEBATED instead of SLIPPED IN when noone is looking…
If he vetoes an entire bill it doesn’t really solve the problem AND it takes that much longer to get the bill passed.

Something bigger has to be done to solve the problem. Say… take the politics out of the spending??? Have them allocate an amount for the ACTUAL bill and then have a non-political business entity distribute the funds.

I will never figure out WHY the same people who decide how much they want to tax us also decide how to (over)spend the money.

Posted by: dawn at April 7, 2006 10:46 PM
Comment #138956

Now, Jack, are you really going to let this figure stand considering the millions of illegal aliens who hold jobs which add to that number? Sure, if you are willing to break or not enforce laws, anything goes, you can massage the statistics to reflect anything you want.

Now subtract the illegal aliens from the payrolls and count American citizens holding jobs, and SUDDENLY that number tanks! Anyone see a motive behind the administration’s border security stand all these years? I sure as hell do!

Posted by: David R. Remer at April 7, 2006 10:48 PM
Comment #138958

Woman

I just report on the economic news when it comes out every month. The news has been good since the middle of 2003, so I report good news. It is getting harder to miss. I think what keeps people feeling low about the economy is the price of gas. We Americans pay a lot of attention to that.

Phx8

Employment always lags growth (and for that matter decline) in the economy because firms don’t immediately hire new workers the minute business turns up. As I always say, things take time to happen. I know from personal experience that it can take months to actually bring an employee on board even AFTER you have decided to hire. So we have an upturn. It takes a while for decision makers to notice. They wait until they believe it is sustained. They decide to hire. The go though the hiring process. They finally get the guy hired. Lagging indicator. After all this happens, people start to notice people are getting jobs. They wait until they believe it is sustained etc. A lagging indicator of a lagging indicator.

Unemployment will probably be down to about 4.5% by November, but more importantly, people will have experienced the low (less than 5% rates) for long enough for it to sink in.

Tom

The economy lost jobs through 2002. Lagging indicator, remember. And the economy lags the president. The president doesn’t even get his budget until October (so October 2001) because of the fiscal year. It picked up in 2003 and so by 2004 November we had a definite upturn.

Dave

I try to write something any day nobody else does. I like Watchblog and I think that if it survives to the next presidential race it will be a good resource. People read what I write, so as long as they are willing to read, I am willing to write.

I think the Dems will improve their position in November, but I think they will be disappointed by the lack of a big change. Congressional races are very particular. In America we vote for person not party. Beyond that, the Dems “new ideas” are not very good or new. You can only get so far on NOT liking Bush.

Personally, I can take any outcome. If the Dems take control, they will very quickly lose support as they really have no positive program. Without Republicans to kick around they will have nothing.

Posted by: Jack at April 7, 2006 11:01 PM
Comment #138960

David

Unemployment is 4.7%. If - as you say - lots of illegal aliens are taking the jobs, this figure would be even better. The number doesn’t tank, it improves.

Besides, we have 52,000 new jobs for doctors, lawyers, engineers etc. Are those guys swimming across the Rio Grande taking those jobs too? If so, we are getting a different sort than we are led to believe.

Posted by: Jack at April 7, 2006 11:06 PM
Comment #138963

Jack:

My concern for the economy of this country is not about the price of gas.

My concern is the deficit, and when the countries that hold this debt come to collect. What of the economy then?

Posted by: womanmarine at April 7, 2006 11:10 PM
Comment #138971

Woman

The deficit is a concern. We need to cut spending and we are not doing it. But you know that the deficit as % of GNP is smaller now than in the middle 1990s. Back then everyone also predicted deficits as far as the eye could see. If the economy picks up sufficiently, some of the debt will be eliminated IF we don’t spend more. That is what happened in the late 1990s.

Actually a good combination is a moderate Dem president and Republican congress. I don’t know if a Dem congress would provide the same sort of discipline to a Republicans president (since Dems believe in bigger government). We may see.

Posted by: Jack at April 7, 2006 11:22 PM
Comment #138975

Let’s hope average wages really do exceed inflation this year. That might give some moderate help to our Inept Republican Ruling Class, but it’d be worth it. I suspect that the insecurity people feel about wages and health care are more of an issue than the mainstream media depicts, and if such insecurity continues, then there will be greater Republican losses in 2006 than is currently predicted.

All the pundits point to Iraq, and Iraq is indeed looking awful, but people care about their own immediate lives. If they start to feel that they’re not on a continuous downhill financial slide, maybe well see a return to some of the optimism and vibrancy we felt in the 1990s. If only we could get a decent caretaker president who could help get a handle on deficits and add some commonsense to foreign policy, we might have a chance.

Posted by: Reed Sanders at April 7, 2006 11:30 PM
Comment #138986

Ummmmm. OK. Unemployment is 4.7%
What about all of this other stuff?
And, that debt thing is growin’ faster than ever. I’ve never seen the hundred$ of billion$ digit$ climb so fast.
Sorry. I guess I don’t know any other tunes either.
: )

Posted by: d.a.n at April 8, 2006 12:27 AM
Comment #139000

Does anyone else write on this side of the Blog?

Posted by: JayJay Snowman at April 8, 2006 1:17 AM
Comment #139017

jay jay with a mighty 15 posts to your credit on the left side i suspose i would also feel a little small myself.other than that any ideas?

Posted by: jim at April 8, 2006 2:12 AM
Comment #139033

I just concluded helping someone in my family find a job. I was surprised at the availability of opportunities. Some might say that I have rose colored glasses, but I see many signs of economic growth in the South.

Posted by: goodkingned at April 8, 2006 3:45 AM
Comment #139039

Some people capitalize and the rest are use to tha syztem!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: peter at April 8, 2006 5:58 AM
Comment #139049

Jack, this is great. Forget the fact that the new jobs added don’t pay as much as the jobs lost, and that the numbers don’t reflect the millions who had jobs back in the 90’s but got laid off under Bush’s tenure and couldn’t find new ones — the employment rate number is finally back around where we were when Bush first got elected. Hurray.

Posted by: American Pundit at April 8, 2006 9:06 AM
Comment #139052

There has been a massive shortage of Topics in the Red Column recently. The Red Boys have been very quiet on Iraq, Iran, Latin America, China, India, Palestine, Russia, the Environment, Local Elections, Tom DeLay, Abramoff, Ken Lay and so on…

I suppose if you don’t have anything nice to say…

By the way, I heard a Bush Homeland Security Appointee tried to have sex with a 14 yr old…

Gotta admire that.

Posted by: Aldous at April 8, 2006 9:25 AM
Comment #139055
  • [01] Median incomes continue to fall, as they have for the last 6 years.
  • [02] Foreclosures continue to rise, as they have for the last 14 months.
  • [03] Interest rates and inflation continue to rise. The Federal Reserve is printing too much money.
  • [04] The National Debt is no laughing matter; especially if you also consider the looming shortfalls in Medicare, Social Security ($12.8 trillion in the hole), and the PBGC ($450 billion in the hole).
  • [05] Our borders and ports are wide open, and the cost (in U.S. lives and money) of illegal immigration is being hugely understated. Someone in America is murdered by an illegal alien every 86 hours. 29% of all prisoners are illegal aliens, and 32% of illegal aliens are on welfare.
  • [06] The size of the government has never been higher. Government employs more people than all manufacturing. The federal government grew by 140,000 since 2000, and continues to grow to nightmare proporations.
  • [07] 62% of Americans do not think it is on the right path.
  • [08] $41 trillion nation-wide debt has never been higher.
  • [09] Poverty is growing. All wealth belonging to 1% of the U.S. population has never been higher since the Great Depression of 1929.
  • [10] Energy vulnerabilities and rising costs are taking their toll.

But, other than that, everything is rosy. Especially here in the rose-colored column. : )

Posted by: d.a.n at April 8, 2006 9:52 AM
Comment #139062

I was talking to a Republican friend the other day about the horrible inflation and interest rates of the Carter Administration. I asked him if he remembered price conrols of the Nixon and Ford (Whip Inflation Now) administrations. I asked him why he thought that inflation was such a problem then. I asked him if he remembered Vietnam and the deficit spending that accompanied that war.

He stopped repeating Limbaughisms.

Posted by: Jack Mohammedoff at April 8, 2006 10:36 AM
Comment #139063

d.a.n:

Can you explain why you turned from the Red Side of the Force?

I am just curious on what it takes to break the hold of Darth Rove.

Posted by: Aldous at April 8, 2006 10:40 AM
Comment #139067

Hey Dave, have you noticed that the congressional dems poll numbers are running at 29% approval, along with the stumbling republicans. You keep harping, just like the liberal, biased MSM, about Bush’s numbers. What they, and you, never mention is that both parties in the legislative branch poll LOWER than Bush. Truth in advertising, please.

Posted by: Beak at April 8, 2006 11:21 AM
Comment #139068

Jack Mohammedoff,
True, some things have been worse at times in the past. No doubt about it. But, that does not justify more bad, ever. Saying, that sometime, somewhere, in the past, it was worse, is a clever way to cloud the issues and shift focus away from those that are now culpable. It is also a lame argument for mediocrity. Clever, but that won’t fly.

Aldous wrote:d.a.n: Can you explain why you turned from the Red Side of the Force? I am just curious on what it takes to break the hold of Darth Rove.

Aldous,
As you may (or may not) agree, the “In-Party” is usually slightly more abusive, and certain is perceived that way too. However, both parties take turns for the most part. The differences between all people in both main parties are there, but small.

But, to answer your question, I left the Republican party primarily because no party is the solution or the problem. However, the massive corruption (which is always growing), and the following reasons below, helped me to finally remove my partisan blinders, and see things the way they really are, and recognize that the real problem is really people (in all parties), and that is real target to focus upon. And, while that ramifications of that are not comforting, it is now crystal clear. I did not come to this realization over night, and I truly understand how difficult it is to finally arrive at this place, because I too used to be one of those stereotypical, rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth hacks, and far too fond of wallowing in the petty partisan warfare, and childishly demonizing Democrats as if they were the root of all evil. That was wrong. While embarrassing, being able to admit it now is best. Also, I feel we have tried everything else, but the one simple, responsible thing we were supposed to be doing all along.

And, I find it encouraging that more and more people (e.g. like Stephen Daugherty, David R. Remer, Ron Brown, Stephanie, Henry Schlatman, steve smith, Dennis, Andre M. Hernandez, and many more) are saying that we need to oust irresponsible incumbents, regardless of party. That is what will truly make this a better nation. My hope, and it may not happen in my lifetime, is that someday, Americans will be the first to take the next step to a higher level, and voters will become more educated about their government, and start keeping a much closer eye on it, and implementing much needed Transparency, which leads to more Accountability, which leads to more Responsibility.

The following list is the result of our entire congress and executive branch. Both Republicans and Democrats helped, even if Democrats to a slightly lesser degree by mere virtue of being the “Out-Party” at the moment. Look at these numerous, collosal failures:
__________________________________
Iraq:

[01] Failing to build a real international coalition prior to the Iraq invasion, forcing the US to shoulder the full cost and consequences of the war.
[02] Approving the demobilization of the Iraqi Army in May, 2003, bypassing the Joint Chiefs of Staff and reversing an earlier position, the President left hundreds of thousands of armed Iraqis disgruntled and unemployed, contributing significantly to the massive security problems American troops have faced during occupation.
[03] Not equipping troops in Iraq with adequate body armor or armored HUMVEES.
[04] Ignoring the advice Gen. Eric Shinseki regarding the need for more troops in Iraq; Now Bush is belatedly adding troops, having allowed the security situation to deteriorate in exactly the way Shinseki said it would if there were not enough troops.
[05] Ignoring plans drawn up by the Army War College and other war-planning agencies, which predicted most of the worst security and infrastructure problems America faced in the early days of the Iraq occupation.
[06] Making a case for war which ignored intelligence that there were no Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq.
[07] Deriding “nation-building” during the 2000 debates, then engaging American troops in one of the most explicit instances of nation building in American history.
[08] Predicting along with others in his administration that US troops would be greeted as liberators in Iraq.
[09] Predicting Iraq would pay for its own reconstruction.
[10] Wildly underestimating the cost of the war.
[11] Trusting Ahmed Chalabi, who has dismissed faulty intelligence he provided the President as necessary for getting the Americans to topple Saddam.
[12] Disbanding the Sunni Baathist managers responsible for Iraq’s water, electricity, sewer system and all the other critical parts of that country’s infrastructure.
[13] Failing to give UN weapons inspectors enough time to certify if weapons existed in Iraq.
[14] Including discredited intelligence concerning Nigerian Yellow Cake in his 2003 State of the Union.
[15] Announcing that “major combat operations in Iraq have ended” aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln on May 1, 2003, below a “Mission Accomplished” banner – more U.S. soldiers have died in combat since Bush’s announcement than before it.
[16] Awarding a multi-billion dollar contract to Halliburton in Iraq, which then repeatedly overcharged the government and served troops dirty food.
[17] Refusing to cede any control of Post-invasion Iraq to the international community, meaning reconstruction has received limited aid from European allies or the U.N.
[18] Failing to convince NATO allies why invading Iraq was important.
[19] Having no real plan for the occupation of Iraq.
[20] Limiting bidding on Iraq construction projects to “coalition partners,” unnecessarily alienating important allies France, Germany and Russia.
[21] Diverting $700 million into Iraq invasion planning without informing Congress.
[22] Shutting down an Iraqi newspaper for “inciting violence”; the move, which led in short order to street fighting in Fallujah, incited more violence than the newspaper ever had.
[23] Telling Saudi Prince Bandar bin Sultan about plans to go to war with Iraq before Secretary of State Colin Powell.

Counterterrorism:
[24] Allowing several members of the Bin Laden family to leave the country just days after 9/11, some of them without being questioned by the FBI.
[25] Focusing on missile defense at the expense of counterterrorism prior to 9/11.
[26] Thinking al Qaeda could not attack without state sponsors, and ignoring evidence of a growing threat unassociated with “rogue states” like Iraq or North Korea.
[27] Threatening to veto the Homeland Security department; The President now concedes such a department “provides the ability for our agencies to coordinate better and to work together better than it was before.”
[28] Opposing the creation of the September 11th commission, which the President now expects “to contain important recommendations for preventing future attacks.”
[29] Denying documents to the 9/11 commission, only relenting after the commissioners threatened a subpoena.
[30] Failing to pay more attention to an August 6, 2001 PDB entitled “Bin laden Determined to Attack in U.S.”
[31] Repeatedly ignoring warnings of terrorists planning to use aircraft before 9/11.
[32] Appointing the ultra-secretive Henry Kissinger to head the 9/11 commission; Kissinger stepped down weeks later due to conflicts of interest.
[33] Asking for testimony before the 9/11 commission be limited to one hour, a position from which the president later backtracked.
[34] Not allowing national Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice to testify before the 9/11 commission, Bush changed his mind as pressure mounted.
[35] Cutting an FBI request for counterterrorism funds by two-thirds after 9/11.
[36] Telling Americans there was a link between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda.
[37] Failing to adequately secure the nation’s nuclear weapons labs.
[38] Not feeling a sense of urgency about terrorism or al Qaeda before 9/11.

Afghanistan:
[39] Reducing resources and troop levels in Afghanistan and out before it was fully secure.
[40] Not providing security in Afghanistan outside of Kabul, leaving nearly 80% of the Afghan population unprotected in areas controlled by Feudal warlords and local militias.
[41] Committing inadequate resources for the reconstruction of Afghanistan.
[42] Counting too heavily on locally trained troops to fill the void in Afghanistan once U.S. forces were relocated to Iraq.
[43] Not committing US ground troops to the capture of Osama Bin Laden, when he was cornered in the Tora Bora region of Afghanistan in November, 2001.
[44] Allowing opium production to resume on a massive scale after the ouster of the Taliban.
Weapons of Mass Destruction:
[45] Opposing an independent inquiry into the intelligence failures surrounding WMD – later, upon signing off on just such a commission, Bush claimed he was “determined to make sure that American intelligence is as accurate as possible for every challenge in the future.”
[46] Saying: “We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories.”
[47] Trusting intelligence gathered by Vice President Cheney’s and Secretary Rumsfeld’s “Office of Special Plans.”
[48] Spending $6.5 billion on nuclear weapons this year to develop new nuclear weapons this year; 50% more in real dollars than the average during the cold war, while shortchanging the troops on body armor.

Foreign Policy:
[49] Ignoring the importance of the Middle East peace process, which has deteriorated with little oversight or strategy evident in the region.
[50] Siding with China in February, 2004 against a democratic referenda proposed by Taiwan, a notable shift from an earlier pledge to stand with “oppressed peoples until the day of their freedom finally arrives.”
[51] Undermining the War on Terrorism by preemptively invading Iraq.
[52] Failing to develop a specific plan for dealing with North Korea.
[53] Abandoning the United States’ traditional role as an evenhanded negotiator in the Middle East peace process.

Economic:
[54] Signing a report endorsing outsourcing with thousands of American workers having their jobs shipped overseas.
[55] Instituting steel tariffs deemed illegal by the World Trade Organization; Bush repealed them 20-months later when the European Union pledged to impose retaliatory sanctions on up to $2.2 billion in exports from the United States.
[56] Promoting economic policies that failed to create new jobs.
[57] Promoting economic policies that failed to help small businesses
[58] Pledging a “jobs and growth” package would create 1,836,000 new jobs by the end of 2003 and 5.5 million new jobs by 2004; so far the president has fallen 1,615,000 jobs short of the mark.
[59] Running up a foreign deficit of “such record-breaking proportions that it threatens the financial stability of the global economy.”
[60] Issuing inaccurate budget forecasts accompanying proposals to reduce the deficit, omitting the continued costs of Iraq, Afghanistan and elements of Homeland Security.
[61] Claiming his 2003 tax cut would give 23 million small business owners an average tax cut of $2,042 when “nearly four out of every five tax filers (79%) with small business income would receive less” than that amount.
[62] Passing tax cuts for the wealthy while falsely claiming “people in the 10 percent bracket” were benefiting most.”
[63] Passing successive tax cuts largely responsible for turning a projected surplus of $5 trillion into a projected deficit of $4.3 trillion.
[64] Moving to strip millions of overtime pay.
[65] Not enforcing corporate tax laws.
[66] Backing down from a plan to make CEOs more accountable when “the corporate crowd” protested.
[67] Not lobbying oil cartels to change their mind about cutting oil production.
[68] Passing tax cuts weighted heavily to help the wealthy.
[70] Moving to allow greater media consolidation.
[71] Nominating a notorious proponent of outsourcing, Anthony F. Raimondo, to be the new manufacturing Czar Raimondo withdrew his name days later amidst a flurry of harsh criticism.
[72] Ignoring calls to extend unemployment benefits with long-term unemployment reaching a twenty-year high
[73] Threatening to veto pension legislation that would give companies much needed temporary relief.

Education:
[73] Under-funding No Child Left Behind
[74] Breaking his campaign pledge to increase the size of Pell grants.
[75] Signing off on an FY 2005 budget proposing the smallest increase in education funding in nine years.
[76] Under-funding the Title I Program, specifically targeted for disadvantaged kids, by $7.2 billion.
[77] Freezing Teacher Quality State Grants, cutting off training opportunities for about 30,000 teachers, and leaving 92,000 less teachers trained than the president called for in his own No Child Left Behind bill.
[78] Freezing funding for English language training programs.
[79] Freezing funding for after school programs, potentially eliminating 50,000 children from after-school programs.

Health:
[80] Not leveling with Americans about the cost of Medicare; the president told Congress his new Medicare bill would cost $400 billion over ten years despite conclusions by his own analysts the bill would cost upwards of $500 billion over that period.
[81] Silencing Medicare actuary Richard Foster when his estimates for the Administration’s Medicare bill were too high.
[82] Letting business associate David Halbert, who owns a company which stands to make millions from new discount drug cards, craft key elements of the new Medicare bill.
[83] Underfunding health care for troops and veterans.
[84] Allowing loopholes to persist in Mad-Cow regulations.
[85] Relaxing food labeling restrictions on health claims.
[86] Falsely claiming the restrictions on stem cell research would not hamper medical progress.
[87] Reducing action against improper drug advertising by 80 percent.

Environment:
[88] Abandoning the Kyoto Treaty without offering an alternative for reducing greenhouse effect.
[89] Counting on a voluntary program to reduce emissions of harmful gasses—so far only a tiny fraction of American companies have signed up.
[90] Gutting clean air standards for aging power plants.
[91] Weakening energy efficiency standards.
[92] Relaxing dumping standards for mountaintop mining, and opening the Florida Everglades and Oregon’s Siskiyou National Forest to mining.
[93] Lifting protection for more than 200 million acres of public land.
[94] Limiting public challenges to logging projects and increased logging in protected areas, including Alaska’s Tongass National Forest.
[95] Weakening environmental standards for snowmobiles and other off-road vehicles while pushing for exemptions for air pollution proposals for five categories of industrial facilities.
[96] Opposing legislation that would require greater fuel efficiency for passenger cars.
[97] Reducing inspections, penalties for violations, and prosecution of environmental crimes.
[98] Misleading the public about the Washington mad cow case and the likely effectiveness of USDA’s weak testing program.
[99] Withdrawing public information on chemical plant dangers, previously used to hold facilities accountable for safety improvements.
___________________________


Does that help?
I believe we are all culpable.
But, I would like to point out that this Administration is turning out to be one of the worst. We should be doing much, much better, but growing corruption is holding us back. There are too many cheaters in our FOR SALE government, and too many slumbering voters fail to do their responsible part, and keep having to learn the hard way (again and again).

Posted by: d.a.n at April 8, 2006 11:29 AM
Comment #139069
Dave wrote: It’s everything.
Yes. But, we should prioritize. Here’s a list, but it isn’t well prioritized. Many are of equal importance. And, I don’t see our FOR SALE government solving many (if any). In fact, the list seems to be growing. Posted by: d.a.n at April 8, 2006 11:35 AM
Comment #139070

d.a.n. you along with David Remer and jc just love the illegal aliens subject and the negative side of having them here.

Well, about 9 million of them will be legalized pretty soon.

Do you know that each one of them will pay the government a thousand dollar fine for having entered the country ilegally? plus about $300 a pop for processing fees… not to mention all the fees that the attorneys will charge them for filing…

Do the math and tell me what is the negative side of all those trillion dollars coming back?

They will be taxed now because after the legalization they will prosecute employers who hire illegals.

What is the negative side of them still be able to stay and make payments on everything they owe: houses, cars, credit cards?

Wouldn’t it be a loss to all those companies not getting their money back, most assets are not worth what they are owed, credit card balances are merely a loss, most companies would bankrupt, we are talking about 13 million people.

What about the cost of shipping them out?

Just curious….

R.V.

Posted by: R.V. at April 8, 2006 11:36 AM
Comment #139071

A prioritized list.
Isn’t that a novel idea?
It’s something you’d think the government, with a $2.2 trillion per year budget, could develop?
Naaaah…that would make too much sense.
But, don’t worry.
Other than that, everything is rosy.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 8, 2006 11:40 AM
Comment #139072

R.V.
They will never pay the fines, and they will continue to be paid off-the-books.
Next?

Posted by: d.a.n at April 8, 2006 11:42 AM
Comment #139073

Solution?
See the SOLUTION at the bottom of this page.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 8, 2006 11:43 AM
Comment #139075

“Does anyone else write on this side of the Blog?”


Jack’s not totally alone. He’s just ‘busier’.

Dawn

Posted by: dawn at April 8, 2006 12:01 PM
Comment #139078

Yes, he is prolific indeed.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 8, 2006 12:43 PM
Comment #139080

Paying the fine is part of the immigration process as well as the fees, no pay no green card, they will be forced to do it.

Plus all the enrolled in the process have to file taxes for all the years they have been here, maintain/show proof of an stable job and have no records of crime involvement or the cards will be revoked so no pay off the books either…

The immigration bill did not pass for politic discrepancies but I’m sure we will live to see it happening soon enough, I just don’t see the down side to it…

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1181547,00.html

Posted by: R.V. at April 8, 2006 12:45 PM
Comment #139082

Jack, yes, the unemployment would be different, but wages would also be higher without the illegal aliens taking the jobs. Supply and demand, ya know.
So, with higher wages, there would be fewer jobs, at least that is what you conservatives argue. And with fewer jobs there would be higher unemployment.

You see, this is what is frustrating about conservatives, they want it both ways, at all times. They want to undercut free market forces with illegal cheap labor and tout better employment numbers (though not for America citizens) and hide the dowward pressure on wages, and claim the one figure, Unemployment, says everything is hunky dory! Sorry, it ain’t, and a huge number of Americans are waking up to this deceptive practice of conservatives.

I am amazed they haven’t come up with a way yet to portray the growth in the national debt as a profitable investment in our future.

Posted by: David R. Remer at April 8, 2006 1:00 PM
Comment #139083

David

Globalization and immigration hold down the wages for people on the lower end of the income distribution. This is not a conservative or even an American thing. Read this article from the Economist on globalization sincc 1993 and how the world has changed.

If you read the BLS report, you see that wages are up this month too. The labor market is tightening and we can expect real wage growth soon (probably beginning next month). By November, it will be impossible to complain about the economy. Bad news for the Dems. Too bad, ain’t it?

Posted by: Jack at April 8, 2006 1:11 PM
Comment #139085
d.a.n. you along with David Remer and jc just love the illegal aliens subject and the negative side of having them here.

R.V.
We don’t love it. We are concerned. You’re statement reveals your own ignorance, and implies racism, xenophobia, or some other lame excuse to excuse illegal aliens.

We are concerned, because the negatives far outweigh the negatives. We also live in border states, so we know what we are talking about.

And, in case it escaped you. Entering the country illegally is: illegal
Duh!

But, let’s ignore the legality for a moment.

We are not demonizing illegal aliens.

This is not about race, nationality, or what ever else you try to use to support your weak arguments.

I don’t blame those illegal aliens that are only looking for work. That’s understandable.

I place more blame on ignorant bleedin’ hearts like you, the federal government for forcing states to accommodate illegal aliens, and the greedy employers of illegal aliens that lure illegal aliens here for sub-minimum wages (and mostly off the books).

What is the cost of one person murdered by an illegal alien every 86 hours?
What is the cost of the increased crime rate due to illegal aliens?
What is the cost of 29% of our all prisoners are illegal aliens?
What is the cost of 32% of illegal aliens are on welfare?
What is the cost of 12 million illegal aliens using our public schools, hospitals, Emergency Rooms, Medicaid, Social Security, etc.?
What is the cost of the disease (why bother with the CDC and vacinations?)?
What is the cost of the burden on our prison, law enforcement, insurance, and voting systems?
What is the cost of illegal aliens voting in our elections (fraudulently)?

In Los Angeles with over one million illegal aliens, thousands of drivers roll around the city with little signs that read, “F**K YOU, THIS IS MEXICO.” If thousands of illegal aliens without driver,s licenses rolled around Washington, DC daily with those little flashing L.E.D. signs in their back windows, the Beltway Boys would get a different perspective of the glories of “multiculturalism” and “diversity” they shove down our throats by allowing these unlawful foreigners in our country against our laws.

Massive, uncontrolled, illegal immigration has never been a benefit to any nation. It creates chaos, societal disorder, and fuels racism and resentments. The resentments are justified too, when illegal aliens abuse our systems and disrespect our laws.

_________________________
[] On 13-Nov-2005, Brian Jackson, a Dallas policeman was shot and killed by an illegal alien, Juan Lizcano. Lizcano had become drunk and went to the home of his ex-girfriend to threaten her. As the police pursued Lizcano after he fled the woman’s home, he shot Officer Jackson, who died later in the hospital. Officer Jackson was remembered by his fellow police as someone who loved his job and always went the extra mile.
[] Then, there is Jorge Hernandez, aka Jorge Soto, who killed Min Soon Chang, an 18-year-old college freshman, in a terrible head-on wreck while Hernandez was driving drunk. He had been arrested 3 previous times for drunk driving in 3 other states, and he had been deported to Mexico 17 times! Don’t you wonder why illegal aliens aren’t deported instantly after being arrested for drunk driving?
[] Debbie Thomas, who was the mother of three, was killed in a head-on collision on Christmas Eve 2003 when her car was struck by a car being driven in the wrong direction by illegal alien, Narciso Garcia-Jimenez. He later escaped from his hospital bed and is still at large. The car he drove had no inspection sticker and was registered to another person. When Debbie’s mom learned that her daughter’s killer survived and escaped after being treated at the hospital, she said she felt “angry, bitter and sad, all at once.”
[] In Atlanta, Georgia: Mexican Miguel Carrasco raped a female victim in front of her four year old child and two minors; California Mexican Zacarias Camacho committed lewd acts upon a child under 14; El Salvadoran Oswaldo Martinez raped, sodomized and murdered a 16 year old; MS-13 gang member Reinaldo Ramos convicted of 2nd degree sexual offense for brutal gang rape of 16 year old girl.
[] Jose Ramirez is every American father’s nightmare. The illegal alien beat up a 15-year-old girl after whistling at her. He broke her nose, fractured a bone in her face and produced cuts requring 30 stitches. The man worked in construction in Spotsylvania, Virginia, where the attack occurred, and resisted arrest to the point where police had to taser him.
[] Jose Raul Pena, earlier deported for cocaine possession, used his little daughter as a human shield in an hours-long Los Angeles shootout with police on July 10. Pena and Suzie were both killed. During the incident, Pena used a 9-millimeter Beretta pistol which had been stolen last year in a burglary in Oregon. His office at the car dealership contained a bag of cocaine and a half-drunk bottle of Tequila — consistent with the illegal Pena’s previous deportation for cocaine possession. Videotape captured images of Pena shooting at the police while holding his daughter, yet his relatives are questioning not only whether he used his daughter as a shield, but whether he was even armed at all, according to the Los Angeles Times.
[] Esmerelda Nava, age 4, was recently strangled, molested and killed by an illegal alien who had been deported in 2003. The accused killer is Cornelio Rivera Zamites, who had been residing in Gainsville, Georgia. Esmerelda went with her parents to visit the 24-year-old Zamites. At some point late Saturday night, the child’s mother realized the girl was missing. A police officer found her body early the next morning in nearby woods. An article of Zamites clothing was close by and he was gone. Zamites had been deported for driving under the influence, as well as having no license or insurance. At least his illegal status was duly noted.
[] The nation’s highways have become far more dangerous since they have been turned into smuggling thruways for criminals. Nineteen-year-old Travis Smith of Mesa, Arizona, was killed in 2002 by a carload of illegal aliens being smuggled to Pennsylvania. The accident occurred near Monticello in southeastern Utah, as the car driven by illegal alien smuggler Isidro Aranda-Flores plowed head-on into Smith’s 1966 Mustang. The smuggler apparently fell asleep at the wheel.
_______________________
And, have you heard of the drug wars on the Texas border? 27 Americans have been abducted along the border in the last six months. And did you see the crime rates calculated in the GAO report.

The following is just for a study group of 55,322 illegal aliens (remember that number).

Arrest Offenses: Illegal aliens in our study population were arrested for almost 700,000 offenses, averaging 13 offenses per illegal
alien:

[] Number of illegal aliens in our study population: 55,322.
[] Total number of arrests: 459,614.
[] Total number of criminal offenses: 691,890.
[] Average number of criminal offenses per illegal alien: 13.
[] Median number of criminal offenses per illegal alien: 10.
_______________________
In Los Angeles (in 2004), 95 % of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) are for illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

Crime rates for many large cities in border states have been rising, while crime rates in most northern states have been falling.

Dallas, Phoenix, L.A., San Antonio, Houston, Albequrque, etc. have seen increasing crime rates for many years. L.A. is the best example of the crime wave.

March 19, 2005: Dallas, TX crime rate again tops among largest cities. The city’s crime rate was the highest among nine U.S. cities, including Houston, with more than a million residents for the seventh consecutive year in 2004, according to police statistics.

Also, illegal aliens are released so often, it encourages them to commit more crimes, because they know they can get away with it, over and over.

What’s interesting about many crime rate studies is that there are few that really want to address the issue, because the government refuses to deal with the problem. Without a doubt, unless you exclude the crime of illegal trespass, the crime rate is definitely increased by illegal aliens. But does it really matter? Any crime by an illegal alien is a crime that never should have happened.
_______________________
Interesting, eh?
I suppose you’re going to say that is all merely anectdotal ?
_______________________
But, crime is just one part of the overall problem, such as the severe burden on:


  • education systems

  • healthcare systems

  • hospital systems

  • welfare systems

  • Social Security system

  • Medicaid system

  • border patrol systems

  • insurance systems

  • law enforcement systems

  • prison systems

  • voting systems

_______________________
R.V.
if you don’t mind illegal aliens coming here uninvited, perhaps you would not mind if some come to your home and make themselves at home? Stay awhile? Perhaps invite a few friends? Should they get your permission first? What’s that you say? No? You don’t want them coming to your home uninvited? Using your welfare and Medicaid? Driving about without drivers licenses and auto insurance? Murdering U.S. citizens? Well, sorry Matthew, you can’t have it both ways. If none of that bothers you, then you are a truly generous person (or somethin’). Especially with other tax payers money and benefits. While your makin’ excuses for illegal aliens, remember all the murdered Americans, those killed by drunk illegal aliens driving without a drivers licenses or insurance, stealing welfare with fake Social Security IDs, and the abuse of our systems paid for by U.S. tax payers.
_______________________________
Please stop making excuses for illegal aliens? The do not all come here for work only. For many, the American dream is crime and welfare.

Illegal aliens are not a net benefit to America.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 8, 2006 1:31 PM
Comment #139088

Jack,

It’s now obvious your party is a one trick pony. Finding a couple of things that are going right right now must have been harder than finding a needle in a haystack.

Posted by: Jack at April 8, 2006 1:55 PM
Comment #139093

RV now they can send american taxed dollars back to mexico instead of cash. what a terrible concept huh. and if you liberals feel bad about it reach deep down and pull some money out of your own pockets. but the problem is your arms are never long enough you just bitch.

Posted by: mb at April 8, 2006 2:26 PM
Comment #139094

(new) Jack

Yeah

really hard. We had to look at job growth, unemployment, economic growth etc. Dems seem unable to understand these indicators these days.

Posted by: Jack at April 8, 2006 2:28 PM
Comment #139097

Woe is me. Doomsayers abound. After visiting the Blue and Green posts, I wonder that America doesn’t just close up shop and try to start a new venture, maybe a pizza shop. I’ll try to rally one more time and point out somethings about the state of the world that are going well.
While, Iraq is troubled, I still think that the Iraqis will institute a viable government. I always expected that the bulk of the problems would be after the military phase. One thing that I know for sure is that Iraq would have zero chance of overthrowing Saddam without intervention from the west. In the due course of time, the potential for growth, advancement and stability for Iraq will expand.

The same argument can be made for Afghanistan. Women in that country are undoubtably better off than under Taliban control. There’s a few rocks on that road too, but if you’ve ever been to the middle east, you’ll realize that there is no shortage of rocks.

As Jack points out, the US economy is growing. As a matter of fact, the US has a higher growth rate than any other nation. Some commenters maintain that the economic numbers indicating progress are manipulated and meaningless, but I just spent two months working the job market and saw many opportunities for low to mid-level employees. The job seeker I was working with got a job at the highest pay rate he has ever obtained. This is a personal anecdote, not a statistic, but I have been monitoring the major internet job boards in the southern states so I think it is valid to say that the job situation is improving.

The liberal side is obsessed with the fallout from the Wilson/Plame outing, but my read on that is that Plame and her spouse were playing partisan politics without regard to the impact on our national interests. Wilson lied and was caught. Plame was not covert. I think that this “scandal” will go away like the non-issue it is. I don’t doubt that Saddam intended to continue his weapons buildup as soon as the UN sanctions were lifted. I also believe that evidence of weapons programs was sent to Syria. Though this situation didn’t tie up into a neat little bundle for disposal, it is good that the US doesn’t have to deal with that looming situation.

It is true that there are many precarious global situations right now, but to lay the blame for this upon the White House is unrealistic. The conflict between radical islamic interests and the West has been brewing for a long time. I am glad that America was represented by Bush who took the conflict to the enemy after September 11th.

I expect that this comment will either be totally ignored or the blue pack will descend in a feeding frenzy. Civility is in short supply on the Blue side lately.

Posted by: goodkingned at April 8, 2006 2:33 PM
Comment #139106

d.a.n.,

This is precisely what I’m talking about.. you love the subject, it does not matter what you say, you share more than just healthy criticism in you lines, there are always two sides to a coin but everytime I read what you write you say something negative about them.

You can call me ignorant or whatever you want, all I pointed out is there are positive things about these people and other aspects we need to look at, did you read the part where I wrote the cost of shipping them out? it’s twelve million people dude!! who will pay the cost? you?

What about all the trillions of dollars worth of legalization we would make? would not that be money that we are due anyway?

What about all the money the companies would loose, did you read that part?, companies that have no knowledge they are helping or giving credit to illegals that have no part in their doings going bankrupt and many americans loosing jobs because of this not to mention less tax money for uncle Sam, etc.

Anyhow, we don’t have to hold some aspects of the burden like the criminals, look at Canada they do not accept immigrants with previous criminal history… even DUI is grounds for denial of documents but they are fond of immigrants and multiculturalism, which I consider beautiful.

Those this is mexico signs are just hateful people they come in all the colors.

There are alternatives for the criminal burden like treatys, why not talking to Mexico and tell them: “listen, we have nearly half of your population here, they all are unwanted but the ones leading a decent life will be allowed to stay, the criminals will be sent back to you and you are responsible to make them pay the time, if we find out you break this agreement we ship them all back….What do you think Mexico and all those other countries will say?

Calm down and tell me what you think?

Posted by: R.V. at April 8, 2006 2:53 PM
Comment #139108

btw in upstate new york the economy is booming a little city in corning new york where corning glass works is ,they pay there workers very well and i just was told by a family member that corning glass handed out bonus checks that averaged about six thousand dollars each, the great grandson of the founder got control back of the company years ago from a pack of crooks and put it back right.

Posted by: RODNEY BROWN at April 8, 2006 2:58 PM
Comment #139110

I need to read twice what I write in the third paragraph, the very last part I meant to say: ” Would not that be money due to us anyway?”

Posted by: R.V. at April 8, 2006 3:03 PM
Comment #139113

Other people study these numbers too…

Courtesy of bonddad:

Bush’s record of job creation is still the worst of the last 40 years.


According to the National Bureau of Economic Research the last recession ended in November 2001. That means we have had 54 months of an economic recovery. First, notice how Bush uses May 2003 as the starting point of his comparison? Why is he doing this? Because May 2003 is the lowest point of establishment job creation in his administration. Since the actual trough in November 2001 Bush’s economy has created 4,083,000 jobs. At the same point (54 months) all other expansions of the last 40 years had created more jobs.


At 54 months,


The expansion starting in February 1961 created 6,550,000 jobs


The expansion starting in November 1970 created 6,240,000 jobs


The expansion starting in March 1975 created 13,565,000 jobs


The expansion starting in November 1982 created 12,366,000 jobs


The expansion starting in March 1991 created 8,718,000 jobs.


Therefore, Bush’s economy would have to create 2,157,000 jobs to be second to last on this list.


There is no way that Bush can create enough jobs to increase his rank to 4th on the list. At this point, he will go down as presiding over the weakest records of job creation of the second half to the 20th century.

Posted by: Aldous at April 8, 2006 3:11 PM
Comment #139117

d.a.n.,
This is precisely what I’m talking about. You love the subject, it does not matter what you say, you share more than just healthy criticism in you lines, there are always two sides to a coin but everytime I read what you write you say something negative about them.

Wrong, just the facts.


You can call me ignorant or whatever you want, all I pointed out is there are positive things about these people and other aspects we need to look at, did you read the part where I wrote the cost of shipping them out? it’s twelve million people dude!! who will pay the cost? you?
Nope. I never said that. We need to secure the borders and prevent illegal aliens from using our schools, welfare, and other systems. With all those freebies gone, they leave and return home, or get in line, and immigrate legally. Also, whatever positives there are, I can provide overwhelming evidence of a net loss. The cost of cheap labor is not cheap to U.S. citizens. It only makes the greedy CEOs and stockholders wealthier, and the average U.S. citizen is impacted negatively. Especially if you want to start trying to calculate the cost of rising crime, and one person murdered every 86 hours by an illegal alien (BTW, that is from a GAO report…I’m careful to report only what I can prove and provide sources for).

What about all the trillions of dollars worth of legalization we would make? would not that be money that we are due anyway?
Those that employee illegal aliens for subminimum wage jobs will not want them anymore if they have to pay minimum wage and taxes. And, illegal aliens don’t have the money or will refuse to pay the fines. Without secure borders and enforcement of the law to procecute employers of illegal aliens, it will never happen. Also, repeat offenders will return, over and over, as they already do (some have been deported several dozen times and simply return).
What about all the money the companies would loose, did you read that part?, companies that have no knowledge they are helping or giving credit to illegals that have no part in their doings going bankrupt and many americans loosing jobs because of this not to mention less tax money for uncle Sam, etc.
Anyhow, we don’t have to hold some aspects of the burden like the criminals, look at Canada they do not accept immigrants with previous criminal history… even DUI is grounds for denial of documents but they are fond of immigrants and multiculturalism, which I consider beautiful.
Those this is mexico signs are just hateful people they come in all the colors.
That is not merely anectdotal. Those signs exist by the thousands. The crime and disrespect is rampant.
There are alternatives for the criminal burden like treatys, why not talking to Mexico and tell them: “listen, we have nearly half of your population here, they all are unwanted but the ones leading a decent life will be allowed to stay, the criminals will be sent back to you and you are responsible to make them pay the time, if we find out you break this agreement we ship them all back….What do you think Mexico and all those other countries will say?
Calm down and tell me what you think?
I am quite calm. You won’t rattle me with anything but facts. I am more than happy to present the facts to you, with overwhelming sources and evidence, even though you won’t like it.

You will continue to make excuses for illegal aliens, and try to play the race card, as you did when you imply that I, David Remer, and JC love this topic. Shame on you. How revealing.

I’ve seen all of those lame attempts to use race, color, and nationality to make excuses for illegal aliens. That may scare off many people, and those not to knowledgable prefer to refrain, but I recognize your tactics for what it is … just anohter cheap tactic to obscure the facts, avoid the real issues, and continue to make more excuses for illegal aliens. You are entitled to believe what ever you like, but you should be careful what you say if you don’t want people to interpret it as ignorance.

So, many are scared away by those clever tactics, but not me. Go ahead and call me racist, elitist, or what ever you want. It only reveals your own ignorance.

For all the Americans (which is most of them, based on numerous polls), do not be scared away by those that use race or other such tactics. They are the ones that are truly prejudiced.

If someone wants to argue the benefits of illegal immigration, lets see the facts.

Instead of playing the race card, and ignorantly accusing people of loving the issue, show me how we or any nation benefits from massive, uncontrolled, illegal immigration.

Show us how it is justified.

Show us how it is our moral duty to allow illegal aliens to come here, increase crime rates, fill our prisons (29% of all prisoners) and steal our benefits and welfare (32% of illegal aliens are on welfare), not to mention murdering one person every 86 hours.

Explain how the rights of foreigners, that illegally trespass our borders, trump the rights of a sovereign nation to secure their own border.

Explain how U.S. is for the public use of the rest of the world, but your home is not for the public use by anyone that isn’t invited.

Explain why if you don’t mind illegal aliens coming here uninvited, why you are not prepared to offer your home up to uninvited illegal aliens? Why not let them come in and make themselves at home? Perhaps stay awhile? Perhaps even invite a few friends? Why don’t they require your permission first? Or, are we about to hear (again, like heathcare) how it is someone else’s responsibility?

If you support all of that, you are a truly generous person, but you alone don’t have the right to dictate who and how tax payers money and benefits are used.

While your makin’ excuses for illegal aliens, remember all the crime, murdered Americans (one every 86 hours), those killed by drunk illegal aliens driving without a drivers licenses or insurance, stealing welfare with fake Social Security IDs, and the abuse of our systems paid for by U.S. tax payers.

Then, try to stick to the facts.

Otherwise, your arguements have no credibility.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 8, 2006 3:26 PM
Comment #139121
R.V. wrote: What about all the trillions of dollars worth of legalization we would make? would not that be money that we are due anyway?
Those that employee illegal aliens for subminimum wage jobs will not want them anymore if they have to pay minimum wage and taxes. And, illegal aliens don’t have the money or will refuse to pay the fines. Without secure borders and enforcement of the law to procecute employers of illegal aliens, it will never happen. Also, repeat offenders will return, over and over, as they already do (some have been deported several dozen times and simply return).
R.V. wrote: What about all the money the companies would loose, did you read that part?, companies that have no knowledge they are helping or giving credit to illegals that have no part in their doings going bankrupt and many americans loosing jobs because of this not to mention less tax money for uncle Sam, etc.
If companies can’t do business within the law, they should go bankrupt.
R.V. wrote: Anyhow, we don’t have to hold some aspects of the burden like the criminals, look at Canada they do not accept immigrants with previous criminal history… even DUI is grounds for denial of documents but they are fond of immigrants and multiculturalism, which I consider beautiful.
Immigration is good. Massive, uncontrolled illegal immigration is bad, creates chaos, societal disorder, and fuels resentments, racism, and xenophobia. The problem with our corrupt, inept government is that it refuses to enforce existing laws, and forces states to accommadate illegal aliens (in our schools, hospitals, healthcare, and welfare systems). The federal government is disgustingly irresponsible, and ignored the problem, until the remedy will be more painful (as usual). Posted by: d.a.n at April 8, 2006 3:36 PM
Comment #139122

well one point about those expansions using your data was they started under republican presidents. even feb 1961 because kennedy took office jan 20 1961..

Posted by: jim c at April 8, 2006 3:37 PM
Comment #139128

d.a.n.,
It just saddens me how divided we are and how egotistical and inhumane some of us are becoming, just the facts right? ok, d.a.n. you’ve cited this website before:

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

…as a way to prove illegal immigrants are a burden: if you read the third bullet after you start reading this article, it states clearly that the federal deficit caused by illegals is due to the fact that they do not have a high school diploma and therefore they make little money, not because of their legal status or the use of the public services, meaning if anyone else black american, asiatic americans or less fortunate white american citizens were doing those jobs they would get paid those same rates to keep the system stable and therefore they would be poor and forced to use those services anyway, the ones you list so much, welfare, schools. etc., d.a.n. realize you are attacking the poor not the immigrants with your thinking.

….if you go back to your roots you will eventually get to an ancestor of yours finding his way here making little money and working his self off for you to sit right now in front of your computer demonizing others doing the same for their own people…but of course for my grnadfather it was ok because it was allowed, correct? now we have laws….this is called hipocresy.

… it is not a race, color or procedence thing….it is a matter of humanity…

…Ignorant I’m if to be a knowledgeable man I have to renounce to the dignity of twelve million human beings…

29% in jail are hispanics?, give me facts as you like to do it, Are they only hispanic last name? or naturalized? or born here? or merely illegals? because if they all are not in the last group you are talking about americans with hispanic ascendance not illegals.

even if they all were illegals it is 29%, what about the other 61%? they are all saints or is it that they do have right to do the crime because they are americans?

We should wipe off the word illegal, we should all be equal, we should all pay taxes and should have better control of our borders and the people coming in should have permits to do so, we should ship out the few that cannot be legalized and be strict enforcing the new immigration laws so we don’t have to deal with this again ever, so we can live in peace not in a quiet war, like the one you have against immigrants…

Posted by: R.V. at April 6, 2006 02:18 PM

Posted by: R.V. at April 8, 2006 3:56 PM
Comment #139140

d.a.n.

I think you missed my point. Presidents have very little to do with economic conditions. That is determined by the business cycle, world events, money supply, and ,least of all, tax policies.

Carter didn’t didn’t create stagflation, LBJ, Nixon and Ford and the Democratic congress did. Reagan didn’t create the 80’s boom the Fed did. Same with Clinton and the 90’s boom.

I don’t particularly like Bush, I think he has botched foreign policy and been collusive in creating the K street corruption. The Iraq mess is expensive and inflationary, not to mention deadly. It may not achieve a strategic position in the oil fields, which I have to presume was the intent.
He a miserable manager, but, thank God ,he hasn’t destroyed the economy or made it any thing to write home about either.

Economics 101: Money Supply, Liquidity(M1), interest rates, political stability. That what makes economies tick. Trade policy is another factor.

Bush’s tax policy, while a hand out to the wealthy, hardly effects the economy. The next administrations will have to deal with the inflationary costs of the war.


Posted by: Jack Mohammedoff at April 8, 2006 4:36 PM
Comment #139144
…as a way to prove illegal immigrants are a burden: if you read the third bullet after you start reading this article, it states clearly that the federal deficit caused by illegals is due to the fact that they do not have a high school diploma and therefore they make little money, not because of their legal status or the use of the public services, meaning if anyone else black american, asiatic americans or less fortunate white american citizens were doing those jobs they would get paid those same rates to keep the system stable and therefore they would be poor and forced to use those services anyway, the ones you list so much, welfare, schools. etc., d.a.n. realize you are attacking the poor not the immigrants with your thinking.

Nonsense. That is yet another attempt to use race, color, class, education, wealth, or some other cheap tactic, because your own argument is so lame and weak.

You are graphing at straws. I’ve already visited this, and many such lame arguments many times. You clearly have not thought it through very well.

So, please continue to ignore the dozens of facts and issues, and ignorantly call those opposed to illegal immigration racists, inhumane, egotistical, or whatever.

….if you go back to your roots you will eventually get to an ancestor of yours finding his way here making little money and working his self off for

Here we go again. Yet another lame argument. Your ancestors were immigrants. True. Legal immigrants.

you to sit right now in front of your computer demonizing others doing the same for their own people…but of course for my grandfather it was ok because it was allowed, correct? now we have laws….this is called hipocresy.

There you go again. Can’t help yourself can you. Once again, resorting to the racism, and what not. Yes of course. People opposing illegal immigration are simply demonizers of the illegal aliens.

… it is not a race, color or procedence (Huh? is that a word?) thing….it is a matter of humanity…
Right. Then why do you keep trying to make a race, color, etc. issue out of it. Who’s the hypocrite ?
…Ignorant I am …
Now, we’re getting somewhere finally.
…Ignorant I am … if to be a knowledgeable man I have to renounce to the dignity of twelve million human beings…
Ooops. I spoke too soon. So those that oppose illegal immigration have no compassion for human beings? Nonsense. They simply don’t like to be abused. And, most of them, including me, are not demonizing illegal aliens. The government caused this problem, and refuse to deal with it, despite the consensus of Americans wanting the government to deal with it.
29% in jail are hispanics?, give me facts as you like to do it, Are they only hispanic last name? or naturalized? or born here? or merely illegals? because if they all are not in the last group you are talking about americans with hispanic ascendance not illegals.
Ha! I never said they were all Hispanic did I? R.V. Like I said, you can’t help yourself. You want to play the race card. That fact (29% of all prisoners in our state and federal prisons are are illegal aliens) comes from the Federal Government Accounting Office. It is for all illegal aliens, regardless of race and nationality. What is your purpose for bringing race into it?
even if they all were illegals it is 29%, what about the other 61%? they are all saints or is it that they do have right to do the crime because they are americans?
More nonsense. What do the other 71% have to do with it (not 61%)? But, since you brought it up, let me point out that the fact that 29% of all prisoners are illegal aliens (of a total 2.2 million prison population) means that illegal aliens are causing more crime. R.V. If you dispute it, disprove it, rather than display more ignorance. BTW, it’s actually higher than 29% now. Several reports now say it is 33%, but I stick to the 29% until I see more evidence. And, other reports say that the number of illegal aliens on welfare is 36% to 42%, but I stick to the 32% until I can find valid evidence. The government knows this, but tries to hide it because they know all too well how delinguent they have been in allowing this problem to grow out of control.
We should wipe off the word illegal,
No. Illegal is illegal.
we should all be equal, we should all pay taxes and should have better control of our borders and the people coming in should have permits to do so, we should ship out the few that cannot be legalized and be strict enforcing the new immigration laws so we don’t have to deal with this again ever, so we can live in peace …
I agree with that part.
… not in a quiet war, like the one you have against immigrants…
R.V. Are you thick or something? I’ve said many times I don’t blame illegal aliens for merely looking for work. My anger is with our corrupt, FOR SALE, inept government that cause the problem, and failed to enforce laws to prevent it, and force states to accommodate illegal aliens.

But, if you want to continue with those lame tactics, fine.
If it makes you feel good, keep calling others racists, xenophobes, or whatever.
It simply reveals your ignorance and failure to adequately research the problem before spouting off about it, and failing understand the negative impacts on U.S. citizens. You believe the myth that illegal aliens are a net benefit to America. You are wrong, but you can’t admit it. Overwhelming evidence, studies, reports, and history have clearly demonstrated the negative impact of massive, uncontrolled, illegal immigration, which is why nations have immigration laws (and rightfully so), to avoid chaos and societal disorder. If you refuse to believe that, fine. You have the right to remain ignorant.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 8, 2006 4:51 PM
Comment #139145

Adous

Interesting numbers.

But let me put names on them

The Kennedy expansion (February 1961) created 6,550,000 jobs

The Nixon expansion (November 1970) created 6,240,000 jobs

The Ford expansion (March 1975) created 13,565,000 jobs

The Reagan expansion (November 1982) created 12,366,000 jobs

Bush Sr expansion (March 1991) created 8,718,000 jobs.

So since Kennedy, only Republicans have presided over recoveries. I didn’t know that.

Ford is the winner, but there is a problem with this. 54 weeks after that expansion we were heading into double digit unemployment and double digit inflation. In this “Bush” recovery, the unemployment rate is still dropping.

Your mistake is that you are looking only at job creation, not numbers of new entrants or time. The baby boom hit the job market in 1975. The economy created jobs, but not enough for all of us.

Posted by: Jack at April 8, 2006 4:52 PM
Comment #139151

thanks JACK for filling in the names.i guess will give kennedy credit for that one! he was a great man! economics 101 jack mhdof the misery index that carter used to defeat ford. was at 13% when carter took office and climed to 22% when he left that was his baby!

Posted by: jim c at April 8, 2006 5:14 PM
Comment #139189

I’ll be entirely honest with you, the Fed raising interest rates is the last thing I (as an individual) want right now (sorry for being selfish).

But the job market is not a good measure of whether or not the Fed will continue to raise interest rates anyways… So, I’m not sure why you mentioned it.

Posted by: Zeek at April 8, 2006 7:06 PM
Comment #139246

d.a.n.,

Nonsense, that is yet another attempt to use race, color, class, education, wealth, or some other cheap tactic, because your own argument is so lame and weak
.

Well, your response is not quite convincing and is lame and weak itself since what I wrote is included in the articles you are giving me to prove your points, truth is you are contradiciting yourself.

I’m ok with sarcasms and the other useless offensive tactics of yours and I’m not going away until you really answer what I’m asking not what you want me to see, I’m not that easy to make my head turn in a different direction like you would like me to.

Here is another one, you just offered more “proof” right above, in the Federal accounting office extract: http://www.gao.gov/htext/d05646r.html

read the whole thing man!!, it states that the study was made in the three states only, the ones with the most illegal population!, California, Arizona and ta da Texas, California’s hispanic/illegal population is more than 75 percent so 58 percent arrests and convictions corresponds directly to population, it is not that illegal immigrants are more criminal than any other race despite the culture clash.

Why don’t you refer to the illegal inmate population in Idaho? because it will be what? one percent? so that does not make your point fly now does it? like I said it goes according to the race of the population.

…and it goes on at the bottom of the page reads: Convictions: Federal Prison Illegal Alien Inmates: Almost 90 percent of this portion of our study population was convicted of immigration or drug offenses, homicide is 1% so they are not out there killing people only like you want me to think and most of them are there just for being illegals.

I agree with you and you do have a point where you state that immigration can’t be uncontrolled and that needs to change but I’m also with Bush when he says that immigration is a sign that we are a powerful, stable and confident nation.

There are many other questions I formulated and you did not bother answering, good try with the ones you did but you flunked. RV.



Posted by: R.V. at April 8, 2006 10:24 PM
Comment #139285

Great! 211,000 new jobs! For the illegals pouring across the border that is.

Posted by: Lyle at April 9, 2006 2:21 AM
Comment #139289

New jobs should always be compared to jobs lost. Just creating jobs does not advance an economy if the number of jobs lost advances at a high rate. Then, as now, those dropping through the cracks because they can no longer look for non-existant jobs aren’t/weren’t counted.

Posted by: Marysdude at April 9, 2006 2:39 AM
Comment #139294
R.V. wrote: Well, your response is not quite convincing …
Logic does not work with everyone. So, convincing some people is impossible.
R.V. wrote: …and is lame and weak itself since what I wrote is included in the articles you are giving me to prove your points
R.V. False. You have posted nothing to refute any of the facts. Nothing to dispute the percentages or totals. You can’t. I don’t make the GAO, DOJ, or CIS reports. Those come from the Federal Government and other Research Organizations.

R.V. wrote:
… truth is you are contradiciting yourself.

R.V.,
False. Only in your own wishful thinking mind.
I have not contradicted myself at all, which is why you are unable to prove exactly how, or refute even a single fact thus far. You are being obscure and vague to hide the flaws of your argument. You have provided nothing but the following incoherent and unrelated response (from above) to cost:

R.V. wrote: … www.cis.org … fiscalexec.html …as a way to prove illegal immigrants are a burden: if you read the third bullet after you start reading this article, it states clearly that the federal deficit caused by illegals is due to the fact that they do not have a high school diploma…

R.V.,
So? You are off on another clever tangent to derail the debate, and distract from the fact that your argument in no way proves the facts presented as false. But, are you now agreeing that illegal aliens are a net loss and it is due to their lack of high school education? Which is it?

I also provided you with three links to GAO reports, and other studies showing that 29% of all prisoners in our state and federal prisons are are illegal aliens, and 32% of all illegal aliens receive welfare, and you respond by telling by about illegal aliens’ lack of a high school diploma? What in the hell are you talkin’ about ? You are making absolutely no sense at all.

R.V. wrote: I’m ok with sarcasms and the other useless offensive tactics
Look who is talking. If you recall, above, you began by saying the following:

R.V. wrote:
… of yours and I’m not going away until you really answer what I’m asking not what you want me to see, I’m not that easy to make my head turn in a different direction like you would like me to.

It’s not sarcasm. Just the facts. No one is trying to turn your head, but if you pull it out of that dark place, you might be able to see what people are trying to tell you.

Here is another one, you just offered more “proof” right above, in the Federal accounting office extract: … d05646r.html . Read the whole thing man!!, it states that the study was made in the three states only, the ones with the most illegal population!, California, Arizona and ta da Texas, California’s hispanic/illegal population is more than 75 percent so 58 percent arrests and convictions corresponds directly to population, it is not that illegal immigrants are more criminal than any other race despite the culture clash.

R.V.,
So? That has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that 29% of all prisoners are illegal aliens. That document you refer to above is not the source of all these facts. And the fact that the GAO-5646-Report was for a study group of 55,322 illegal aliens in California, Arizona, Texas has nothing to do with the over all percentage. You should do more thorough research before you stick you mouth in your foot.

Why don’t you refer to the illegal inmate population in Idaho? because it will be what? one percent? so that does not make your point fly now does it? like I said it goes according to the race of the population.
Not true. The percentages reported are for ALL illegal aliens prisons nationwide. But, there is no doubt that the crime rates increased by volume and rate in border states. So what? They are not all Mexican. Some come from Central America and South America. But, I’m not surprised by yet another lame and shameful attempt by you (R.V.) to play the race card. Shame on you.
…and it goes on at the bottom of the page reads: Convictions: Federal Prison Illegal Alien Inmates: Almost 90 percent of this portion of our study population was convicted of immigration or drug offenses, homicide is 1% so they are not out there killing people only like you want me to think and most of them are there just for being illegals.

R.V.
Wrong. Only 24% were for immigration violations only. Your research sloppy and flatout wrong. You are not very good in math either.
The rate of homicide is even worse than I quoted earlier. I used the most conservative value because that is easily supported by GAO-5646-Report. I stated that 1 person was murdered every 86 hours by and illegal alien.


Criminal offense: Homicide;
Total offenses: Number: 5,992;
Offenses for illegal aliens in federal prisons: Number: 1,156;
Offenses for illegal aliens in state prisons and local jails: Number:
4,836;

Those 5992 homicides were from 1947 to 2004.
That is 59 years.
That is only for Texas, Arizona, and California.
(59 years * 365 days per year * 24 hours per day) / 5992 homicides = 1 homicide per 86 hours.

In reality, it is worse that 1 murder per 86 hours, and the rate has increased, because most of the crimes occurred after 1990.

[] 95% of 1,200 warrants for homicide in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens. 66% of 17,000 fugitive felony warrants are for illegal aliens.

[] According to statistics by the Salt Lake City Police Department, 80% of all drug crimes in the City are committed by illegal aliens. In Salt Lake County, the equivalent number is about 50%. That’s why Congressman Cannon is on the Immigration Subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee. He is working to insure that interior states, like Utah, are not overlooked in the war on illegal immigration.

[] John Mullaly a former NYPD homicide detective, estimates that 70 percent of the drug dealers and other criminals in Manhattan’s Washington Heights were illegal

[] In 2001, 87 percent of deportable aliens who received run letters disappeared, a number that was even higher-94 percent-if they were from terror-sponsoring countries.

[] 30% of federal prison inmates are foreign born allows the calculation of a yearly cost of incarcerating foreign born criminals. This US DOJ PDF file tells us that that there are about 166,000 in prisons and the cost is about $20,000 (I’m rounding slightly). So 0.3 times 166,000 times $20,000 gives us a yearly cost of $996 million or almost $1 billion dollars per year (and it probably will be over a billion in 2004 since the number of illegals continues to grow). Throw in the cost for police to catch these people and the court costs of trying them and then throw in the costs at the state and local level for arrest, trial, incarceration, and probation and it is clear that illegal alien criminals are costing billions of dollars per year in criminal justice system costs alone

[] an average of 2,000 illegal aliens streaming across our borders daily. One illegal alien in Santa Barbara, California infected 56 other people
with tuberculosis as reported on April 24, 2004, by the Santa Barbara
Press-News, “Anatomy of an Outbreak” .

I agree with you and you do have a point where you state that immigration can’t be uncontrolled and that needs to change but I’m also with Bush when he says that immigration is a sign that we are a powerful, stable and confident nation.
Well, we agree that massive, uncontrolled, illegal immigration is bad. That’s good. As for Bush’s statement that “immigration is a sign that we are powerful, stable and confident nation.” (if he said that), does not quell the justified concerns that most Americans have, nor does it help obviate the need for immigration reform, and it does not absolve Bush of his failure to address this serious issue (which was a part of his campaign).
There are many other questions I formulated and you did not bother answering, good try with the ones you did but you flunked. RV.
R.V. False again. I checked above, and have answered all of your questions, and then some. I’ve provided links to reports, studies, and articles to support all of my facts. You have provided nothing but rhetoric and opinion and none of it backed up by any GAO report, study, or article.

R.V. You have the gall to say I flunked, but you failed to refute a single fact, and offer no other reports or sources of any kind. You obviously do not know what you are talking about, but refuse to admit it. Do some more research, educate yourself on this subject, and engage brain before mouth. Then you might build up some credibility.

R.V.,
This is not an issue of race, nationality, color, etc.
It is simply a common-sense issue.
This nation is not for the public use of the entire world, no more than your home is for the public use of uninvited illegal aliens.

Crime is only a part of the problem related to massive, uncontrolled illegal immigration:

  • increased crime rates;

  • burden on education systems;

  • burden on healthcare systems; increased spread of diseases;

  • burden on hospital systems;

  • burden on welfare systems; 32% of illegal aliens are on welfare;

  • burden on Social Security system; fake Social Security number;

  • burden on Medicaid system;

  • burden on border patrol systems; ever increasing numbers are needed;

  • burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;

  • burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;

  • burden on prison systems; 29% of those in state and federal prisons (Sep-2004) are illegal aliens;

  • burden on voting systems; voter fraud;

Please stop making excuses for illegal aliens? The do not all come here for work only.
Massive, uncontrolled, illegal immigration is not a net benefit to America.

Lastly, remember … no reforms (including immigration reform) are possible until one fundamental change is made first. All voters need to do is the one simple, common-sense, no-brainer, non-partisan, safe, peaceful, inexpensive, and responsible thing voters were supposed to be doing all along:


Vote out (or recall) all irresponsible incumbents, always, every election, until no more irresponsible incumbents exist, and government finally agrees to pass the many badly-needed, common-sense, responsible reforms that incumbents have refused to pass for so many decades.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 9, 2006 2:56 AM
Comment #139298

“this administration has been spending money like drunken sailors.” Ok are you or have you ever been a drunken sailor? And what might you be trying to say about sailors? This administration is in the middle of a war. Something many of you would know little to nothing about. I hear a lot of pull out we’ve been their too long, ect. The US have removed the 21 century Hitler before he was able to spread like a virus. We may be in Iraq 50 years from now just as we have been in Germany. No one seems to want to open their eyes and understand this. Please lib’s review your own books. Everyone knows the libs run the schools, after all thoses that can’t teach. Even in the liberal books on Ecomonics state very clearly that Jack’s words are true. Imagine, a liberals very words used against him. The big thing people are seeing right now is gas prices. I don’t like the price of gas either. However, considering the fact that the last time I visited Puerto Rico 16 years ago and gas was $3.25 a litter….NOT A GALLON BUT A LITTER.(this is only one example) I believe we hear in this great United States have been spoiled for many years. Find the alt fuel and get over it. It is already out their and avilable.

Posted by: Sam at April 9, 2006 3:43 AM
Comment #139505

Jack, you missed the point. By adding 11+ million illegals to our society, we have added millions of Americans to that 4.7% who never should have been unemployed at this time had the jobs been available which are now held by wage undercutting illegal aliens.

Posted by: David R. Remer at April 10, 2006 3:14 AM
Comment #139526

David,

And holders of Wal-Mart stock will lose $ because they will now have to pay real wages, FICA, etc… The sad reality is that as the middle and lower classes become poorer they can only support the parasitic uber-wealthy if they have cheap consumer products available to keep the economy moving.

d.a.n.

You should get the opinion of a third disinterested party who’s math skills you can respect. Although the effect of much of what you say I can support, your criminality inferrences of the general “illegals” population are still wrong.

Posted by: Dave at April 10, 2006 9:18 AM
Comment #139527

I guess the old addage is true, for every silver lining there has to be a dark cloud.

Posted by: Ed at April 10, 2006 9:21 AM
Comment #139550
d.a.n. You should get the opinion of a third disinterested party who’s math skills you can respect.

Dave! You again, eh?
I have verified the data and math. But, we know from your previous display of math from a previous discussion, that person ain’t you, but you still question other’s math?

Although the effect of much of what you say I can support, your criminality inferrences of the general “illegals” population are still wrong.

No, Dave, you are wrong, and you are unable to prove otherwise. You continue to repeat your opinion unsupported by data, and refuted by overwhelming evidence to the contrary, and you tried to present a few weak and flawed arguments, and then gave up. I have provided overwhelming evidence of it, and you have provided nothing but opinion and rhetoric.

If you don’t believe it, then you have a lot of disproving to do.

Here’s one that’s easy to prove.

At least one person in the U.S. is murdered by an illegal alien every 86 hours. Do you refuse to believe that? Must I provide proof from the GAO-5646 and DOJ reports?

Dave, If you wish to ignore the crime issue, that’s your choice. Please beleive what ever you want, keep trying to take what you perceive as the benevolent path but is the lazy path, but don’t expect us to agree with you, nor join with you to make excuses for illegal aliens, and please don’t expect the victims and their survivors of violent crimes to agree with you.

As stated many, many times, I don’t blame those illegal aliens that are only looking for work. That’s understandable.

I place more blame on ignorant bleedin’ hearts that want to appear benevolent for making excuses for illegal aliens, the federal government for forcing states to accommodate illegal aliens, and the greedy employers of illegal aliens that lure illegal aliens here for sub-minimum wages (and mostly off the books).

However, with 29% (more like 33% now actually by some reports) of all prisoners being illegal aliens, and 32% on welfare (more like 36% to 42% now actually by some reports), the American dream for some seems to be crime and welfare.

[] 95% of 1,200 warrants for homicide in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens. 66% of 17,000 fugitive felony warrants are for illegal aliens.
[] John Mullaly a former NYPD homicide detective, states 70% of the drug dealers and other criminals in Manhattan’s Washington Heights are were illegal aliens.
[] According to statistics by the Salt Lake City Police Department (and verified by an independent study), 80% of all drug crimes in the City are committed by illegal aliens. In Salt Lake County, the equivalent number is 50%. That’s why Congressman Cannon is on the Immigration Subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee. He is working to insure that interior states, like Utah, are not overlooked in the war on illegal immigration.
[] In 2001, 87% of deportable aliens who received run letters disappeared, a number that was even higher-94 percent-if they were from terror-sponsoring countries.
[] an average of 2,000 illegal aliens streaming across our borders daily. One illegal alien in Santa Barbara, California infected 56 other people
with tuberculosis as reported on April 24, 2004, by the Santa Barbara
Press-News, “Anatomy of an Outbreak” .

But, the crime is only part of the other numerous serious issues:


  • increased crime rates;

  • burden on education systems;

  • burden on healthcare systems;

  • burden on hospital systems;

  • burden on welfare systems; 32% of illegal aliens are on welfare (Jan-2004);

  • burden on Social Security system;

  • burden on Medicaid system;

  • burden on border patrol systems; ever increasing numbers are needed;

  • burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;

  • burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;

  • burden on prison systems; 29% of prisoners in state and federal prisons are illegal aliens (Sep-2004);

  • burden on voting systems; voter fraud with fake ID;

Dave, you are in complete denial.
You might want to research the issue before you stick your mouth in your foot.
; )


Posted by: d.a.n at April 10, 2006 11:22 AM
Comment #139566

d.a.n.

I’m done with that topic and I’m sorry I won’t read through that post. I have shown where your mistakes are and you are the one in denial. You’re wrong, I’m right, let’s move on :-)

Hey Dave, have you noticed that the congressional dems poll numbers are running at 29% approval, along with the stumbling republicans.

Posted by: Beak at April 8, 2006 11:21 AM

Those are always unusual numbers. Even though both parties are at 29%, when they looked at how people view their own senators, the Dems average 58% approval, the GOPers 55% (basically still a tie), and Jeffords (I) is at 65%. Posted by: Dave at April 10, 2006 12:30 PM
Comment #139572

Dave,
Thank you, (Eventhought you and d.a.n. questioned my math skills,lol.. and don’t know why because all the cifers I used are in the links he provided)…that is all I was trying to say, d.a.n. is misleading when he says that illegals are a net loss and that they are nothing but criminals.

Go to the link below and read, apparently I’m not the only one seeing things from a different point of view and using my “rethoric and opinion”, this was published in the Atlanta Journal Constitution.
http://www.ajc.com/search/content/auto/epaper/editions/today/opinion_34201b0f84a5704f002b.html

I look at it this way… there is no rich country where there is no illegal immigration so we can’t help people trying to come and get here, we are a rich country but the difference between them and us is many have much better controls than us.

This people is even necessary for our growth when we know who they are and where they live and if they have a criminal past or not, criminals one race or another tend to repeat their actions over and over.

If you read my first opinion all I said was pretty much we were back on track by legalizing 9 million people and ship out only the remaining two or three million that have been here less than two years which we can do, because shipping them all out is just not possible, it would cost too much from any point of view and because everything I mentioned in the first and second post we would even make money out of them but they decanted on the proposal last minute and we are right where we started.

This is my last post on this column. RV.

Posted by: R.V. at April 10, 2006 12:49 PM
Comment #139588
d.a.n. I’m done with that topic and I’m sorry I won’t read through that post. I have shown where your mistakes are and you are the one in denial. You’re wrong, I’m right, let’s move on :-)
Of course you are. You don’t want to repeat what you did before. Why look like a fool when you can simply say “your wrong and I’m right”.

And R.V. doesn’t want to stick around either. He says:


This is my last post on this column. RV.

Of course it is. Fine. You both toss in a few statements of disbelief, but refuse to provide anything coherent to back up your argument. R.V.’s link has nothing to do with the negative impact of illegal immigration. It’s yet another of thousands of editorials simply saying (again, fo the billionth time) we are all immigrants. Event R.V. already back-peddled earlier and said some of the issues were serious, but now still discounts all of those when convenient. Dave and R.V. both deny the increased crime rates, no matter how overwhelming the evidence is. Dave and R.Ve. both refuse to address even a single bullet above, because they know they can’t disprove it. If the truth was as you both (Dave and R.V.) say, you can bet there would be droves of people (other than yourself) refuting it? No? But, despite the overwhelming evidence to prove the facts true, you have the gall to say you are right and everyone else is wrong and in denial. Facinating. We are all insisting ourselves to be correct. The only difference is you two offer nothing but opinion and flawed math. Sorry, but opinion alone doesn’t build credibility.

You (especially R.V.) tried to use race, color, and nationality. Dave, too, once said “race has something to do with it”. When that low-life tactic failed, Dave and R.V. said crime rates didn’t increase due to illegal aliens. When the facts were provided to prove otherwise, you simply retreated and concluded that everyone else is in denial.

Later, when all of the other numerous issues besides crime were presented, you started back-peddling and wrote (above):

“Although the effect of much of what you say I can support, your criminality inferrences of the general “illegals” population are still wrong.”

Well, you can deny it all you like, but that won’t make it reality. If you don’t want to believe it, fine. But don’t expect us to take your word for it unless you can provide some credible evidence to support your claim. Do some research and show us the proof; not just some pundit’s opinion or some 10 year old report, but some current, hard facts and numbers (e.g. such as recent GAO and DOJ reports and studies).
____________
In 1995, 11% of prisoners (state and federal) were illegal aliens.
In 2002, 17% of prisoners (state and federal) were illegal aliens.
In 2003, 25% of prisoners (state and federal) were illegal aliens.
In 2004, 29% of prisoners (state and federal) were illegal aliens.
In 2004 (Aug), 25% of prisoners (state and federal) were illegal aliens.
In 2005 (May), 25% of California’s state prisoners are illegal aliens.
In 2005 (Aug), 29% of prisoners (federal only) are illegal aliens.
In 2005 (Oct), 27% of prisoners (state and federal) are illegal aliens.
In 2006, 33% of prisoners (state and federal) are illegal aliens.
In 2000, the average time served by illegal aliens in Federal prison was 21 months.

__________________
[] PHOENIX Television and radio stations began running ads in the Valley last week, paid for by the Coalition United to Secure America, attributing the 45% increase in homicides and 41% increase in home invasions to illegal aliens. Phoenix Police Department reports confirm those figures and Sgt. Tony Morales believes there is no doubt that the statistics are tied to illegal aliens. However, news reports about the ads have brought out comments from Rep. Steve Gallardo, District 13, who was quick to claim the ads racist (yep, anyone against illegal immigration is always a racist) … more …
[] 12/31/2002 - Six-month figures revealed a 3.3 percent increase in violent crime in California, including a 16 percent rise in homicides, over the same span in 2001.
[] February 06,2006 - The Monitor - According to the Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Assistance, more than a quarter of the approximately 400,000 days spent in the Hidalgo County Jail during the course of the 365-day period belonged to criminal illegal aliens convicted with at least one felony or two misdemeanors. (Days spent in jail during the pre-trial period were counted only if the criminal illegal alien was convicted of the crime.) The Hidalgo County Jail held 3,335 eligible criminal illegal alien inmates for the fiscal year 2005 reporting period, up from 3,136 criminal illegal alien inmates in 2004. These numbers have been confirmed through the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement vetting process, which runs inmate records through a series of databases to verify accuracy. The Hidalgo County jail only has approximately 1,200 beds. Not only do thousands of criminal illegal aliens crowd the jail, but many make repeat appearances.
__________________

R.V. wrote:… d.a.n. is misleading when he says that illegals are a net loss and that they are nothing but criminals
R.V. That is a lie, since I never said illegal aliens are nothing but criminals. R.V., you won’t build credibility by telling blatant lies. I said the cost of illegal immigration was a net loss. You and Dave are both frustrated, because neither one of you can not disprove the facts and realitiy.

Dave, R.V. ,
You two go right on believing what ever you like.
Go right ahead, lamely, playing the race, color, nationality, etc. card.
Go right ahead refusing to believe reality.

Dave, R.V. ,
Why do you two make excuses for illegal aliens, and show no concern at all for the many victims of the violent crimes they perpetuate? Those are crimes that should have never occurred?

Posted by: d.a.n at April 10, 2006 1:49 PM
Comment #139607

OK d.a.n.n.y.

The whole thread:
http://www.watchblog.com/thirdparty/archives/003380.html#more

Here’s some review:

criminal aliens are citizens convicted of crimes while in this country legally or illegally-(Page 1 GAO-05-337R)
The percentage of all federal prisoners who are criminal aliens has remained the same over the last 3 years about 27 percent. -(Page 2 GAO-05-337R).
Posted by: Dave at March 30, 2006 08:55 AM

your reference, GAO-05-646R is for Arrests, not convictions or anything else.

Posted by: Dave at March 30, 2006 02:20 PM

Your math is wrong, ask someone else then get back to us.

Posted by: Dave at April 10, 2006 3:07 PM
Comment #139620

No Dave,

You goofed again.
What are you?
A glutton for punishment or just … whatever?

The introduction of the GAO-05-337R report clearly states:


… criminal aliens are considered to be noncitizens who are residing in the United States legally or illegally and convicted of a crime.

So, once again, you are incorrect.
The GAO-05-337R report says criminal aliens are convicted aliens and they are non-citizens. What part of convicted do you not understand?
Where do you keep coming up with these total falsehoods.
Don’t you get tired of looking like a complete….uhmmmm….whatever?

Now, pay attention. The key word here is criminal meaning convicted.
From line 80 of GAO-05-337R it says the following which says “criminal” aliens:

* At the federal level, the number of criminal aliens incarcerated
increased from about 42,000 at the end of calendar year 2001 to about
49,000 at the end of calendar year 2004—a 15% increase. The
percentage of all federal prisoners who are criminal aliens has
remained the same over the last 3 years—about 27%. The majority
of criminal aliens incarcerated at the end of calendar year 2004 were
identified as citizens of Mexico. We estimate the federal cost of
incarcerating criminal aliens—BOP’s cost to incarcerate criminals and
reimbursements to state and local governments under SCAAP—totaled
approximately $5.8 billion for calendar years 2001 through 2004. BOP’s
cost to incarcerate criminal aliens rose from about $950 million in
2001 to about $1.2 billion in 2004—a 14%increase. Federal
reimbursements for incarcerating criminal aliens in state prisons and
local jails declined from $550 million in 2001 to $280 million in 2004,
in a large part due to a reduction in congressional appropriations.

… which corroborates what I posted above, which was (repeated below):
______________________
In 1995, 11% of prisoners (state and federal) were illegal aliens.
In 2002, 17% of prisoners (state and federal) were illegal aliens.
In 2003, 25% of prisoners (state and federal) were illegal aliens.
In 2004, 29% of prisoners (state and federal) were illegal aliens.
In 2004 (Aug), 25% of prisoners (state and federal) were illegal aliens.
In 2005 (May), 25% of California’s state prisoners are illegal aliens.
In 2005 (Aug), 29% of prisoners (federal only) are illegal aliens.
In 2005 (Oct), 27% of prisoners (state and federal) are illegal aliens.
In 2006, 33% of prisoners (state and federal) are illegal aliens.
In 2000, the average time served by illegal aliens in Federal prison was 21 months.
______________________
From about 2003 to 2005, the percentage was about 27%. Recent reports in 2006 place it higher at about 33%, but 27% is still very damning when you consider that illegal aliens are the largest group of prisoners (per capita).

That is, 27% of 2.2 million prisoners is 594,000 illegal aliens.
594,000 illegal aliens out of all 12 million illegal aliens is 5% of the total illegal alien population are prisoners.
That is a very stark and damning contrast to the total U.S. citizen prisoners is only a mere 0.2% of the total U.S. citizen population.

So, what’s wrong with that math?
Dave, everything you said was just completely blown out of the water.
You’re not very good at this are you?

Of course, you will return with more non-sequiturs, bad math, and totally misinterpreted data, and say:


Your wrong !
I’m right !
Your math is wrong !
You’re in denial !

Dave, How do you ever hope to build any credibility if you keep doin’ this?

So, are you still going to say illegal aliens are not increasing crime the crime rate ? ( and I’ll even exclude the crime of being here illegal, driving without a drivers license, or auto insurance).

If you still in denial, then you truly are…uhhmmm….whatever.
Logic does not work for you; only fantasy.
You seem to be able to take any facts, reports, or article and twist it completely into something completely different (like claiming above that the criminal aliens were not convicted). What’s up with that?

Or, are you hoping your rhetoric won’t be challenged.

Whichever, you’re really beginning to make me seriously wonder about your cognitive ability.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 10, 2006 3:53 PM
Comment #139722
So, once again, you are incorrect. The GAO-05-337R report says criminal aliens are convicted aliens and they are non-citizens. What part of convicted do you not understand? Posted by: d.a.n at April 10, 2006 03:53 PM

I said:

your reference, GAO-05-646R is for Arrests, not convictions or anything else.

You really can’t do numbers can you?

Posted by: Dave at April 10, 2006 10:08 PM
Comment #139745

Dave,
Sorry. But once again, you are simply wrong, and I prove it below.
So, how many times do you have to be proven wrong?
You really are a glutton for punishment.

You keep trying cheap tactics to derail the debate and cloud the issues with non-sequiturs, such as now, by saying some data was for arrests only (not convictions), which is false, since the very GAO-5646R report you reference also lists CONVICTIONS for
Federal Prison Illegal Alien Inmates: almost 90% of study population of 55,322 were convicted of immigration or drug offenses.
Offense: Immigration: Number: 12,694; 68%
Offense: Drugs: Number: 3,978; 21%
Offense: Unknown: Number: 1,183; 6%
Offense: Weapons, explosives, arson: 251; 1%
Offense: Fraud, bribery, extortion: Number: 185; 1%
Offense: Burglary, larceny, property crimes: Number: 95; 1%
Offense: Assault: Number: 41; under 1%
Offense: Robbery: Number: 28; under 1%
Offense: Kidnapping: Number: 26; under 1%
Offense: Court, corrections: Number: 25; under convicted do you not understand?

And, what about the original issue: Increased Crime Rates
Want to get back the original issue?
Got any proof to back up you claim?

You keep trying to cloud the issue (crime and crime rates) with a very insignificant distinction between convictions versus arrests in one GAO-5646R report, while ignoring the convictions the other GAO-05-337R Report. What’s up with that? Do you think no one will notice your not so slight of hand? That’s just really weak pull that nonsense with every discussion. You don’t want to deal with the one primary issue, continue to go off on wild tangents, grasping at straws to prop up weak arguments. And, even if the following federal and state arrests below don’t include convictions, those above do include convictions, and it is still damning evidence:
Arrest Offenses: 45% of illegal alien offenses were for
drugs and immigration:
Criminal offense: Drugs; Number: 166,722; 24%
Criminal offense: Immigration; Number: 144,166; 21%
Criminal offense: Traffic violations; Number: 55,060; 8%
Criminal offense: Assault; Number: 50,958; 7%
Criminal offense: Obstruction of justice; Number: 45,632; 7%
Criminal offense: Burglary; Number: 38,689; 6%
Criminal offense: Larceny/theft; Number: 31,883; 5%
Criminal offense: Fraud, forgery, and counterfeiting; Number: 25,773; 4%
Criminal offense: Weapons violations; Number: 22,263; 3%
Criminal offense: Motor vehicle theft; Number: 20,950; 3%
Criminal offense: Robbery; Number: 15,305; 2%
Criminal offense: Stolen property; Number: 13,415; 2%
Criminal offense: Sex offense; Number: 11,833; 2%
Criminal offense: Disorderly conduct; Number: 8,768; 1%
Criminal offense: Property damage; Number: 6,478; 1%
Criminal offense: Homicide; Number: 5,992; 1%
Criminal offense: Kidnapping; Number: 3,236; under 1%
Criminal offense: Arson; Number: 457; under 1%
Criminal offense: Other; Number: 24,310; 4%
Total offenses: Number: 691,890;
Total offenses in federal prisons: Number: 267,709;
Total offenses in state prisons and local jails: Number: 424,181;

So, Dave, you must be looking in the mirror when you say:


You really can’t do numbers can you?

Dave, you are making this too easy.
Here’s a little hint.
If you want to win an argument, you have to be credible.
One of the best ways to be credible is to be correct.
If you are wrong, admit it quickly, and move on.
Don’t do what you are doing.
You are simply destroying your own credibility.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 10, 2006 11:37 PM
Comment #139789

Jack,

For your info, correlations of administrations to ecomic expansions is a toally spurious use of statistics. You can also correlate the length of women’s skirts to economic expansions and contractions, neither is meaningful. Taxing policies do not govern or have immediate effects on economic cycles. If anything, it is more likely that the previous administration had some effect on the following administration’s economic fortunes.

As to differentiating between legal and illegal immigrants, Which Europeans were “legal” immigrants? As I recall hisory, the Natives were none too happy about the Europeans coming here and were slaughtered for their trouble.


Posted by: Jack Mohammedoff at April 11, 2006 3:20 AM
Comment #139793

Jack M.:

You make a good point about the need to control immigration. Look what happened to the native Americans.

Posted by: goodkingned at April 11, 2006 3:54 AM
Comment #139824

d.a.n.,

I could not help it, I’m back, check this site:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

It is statistics on homicides between 1976 and 2002 this is a government site, offeders are blacks or whites 96% of the times, and the remaining 4% under other are the mix of anything else not black or white including illegal immigrants, what are you going to say now?, government numbers are not to trust?

Remember what I said before? illegals are not out there to kill you!…the movies you watch maybe not suitable for you, tell your parents to give you advise on the contents, now come on out, exercise and breath some air, dude, you really need it. RV.

Posted by: R.V. at April 11, 2006 9:19 AM
Comment #139856
R.V. wrote: d.a.n., I could not help it,
Obviously. Boy, you are a glutton for punishement. Eh? You are making this all too easy, but it’s your credibility (uhhhh…or lack of it).
R.V. wrote: I’m back, check this site: Homicide trends by Race”> It is statistics on homicides between 1976 and 2002 this is a government site, offeders are blacks or whites 96% of the times, and the remaining 4% under other are the mix of anything else not black or white including illegal immigrants, what are you going to say now?, government numbers are not to trust?

R.V.
Wrong again.
And I will show exactly why (below) you are wrong. I have already read that report many times in the past.

First of all, the BJS link you provided is not for illegal aliens.
You very carelessly and erroneously assumed that illegal aliens are neither black or white. So, that is your first huge mistake.

Second, the report you refer to never refers to illegal aliens.
It clearly states :


From 1976 to 2002 —
86% of white victims were killed by whites;
94% of black victims were killed by blacks;

So? R.V., Again, you are wrong and you are inventing and twisting data.

Third, you say 4% of homicides are by illegal aliens, but there is absolutely nothing in the report that supports that, since it doesn’t ever say anything about illegal aliens. So, once again, you are inventing data.

So, R.V. To use your very own words, “what are going to say now?”.

Wait. Let me guess. You, of course, will say:

d.a.n,
You are a racist !
You hate illegal immigrants !
You are wrong ! and I am right !
Na na na na na, na na na na na.
What are ya’ gonna say now ?

R.V. wrote: Remember what I said before? illegals are not out there to kill you!…the movies you watch maybe not suitable for you, tell your parents to give you advise on the contents, now come on out, exercise and breath some air, dude, you really need it. RV.
R.V. You’re errors, twisting and inventing data, inability to admit you are wrong, myriad of desparate/weak/lame arguments, and calling everyone a racist reveals your own childishness and ignorance. I’ll say this. You are consistent.

Anything else?

Please visit this site, and education yourself first, before you continue to destroy your credibility.
_________________________________________
Stop Repeat Offenders.
Don’t Re-Elect Them !
_________________________________________

Posted by: d.a.n at April 11, 2006 12:06 PM
Comment #139865

d.a.n.n.y.

I understand completely. Obviously, you can’t read too.

You said: GAO-05-337R
report says criminal aliens are convicted aliens
I said: GAO-05-646R is for Arrests, not convictions.
Then with unsubstantiated prejudices you say that’s only because any difference is because they were “under convicted”. As if poor undocumented criminal aliens have better lawyers than poor documented citizens. Even your own data shows 2/3’rds of aliens were in Federal jail because of immigration violations, not personal or property crimes. Your basic argument is “if there were no aliens, there would be no crime committed by aliens” No shit!

But, I digress. You also continue to ignore illegal aliens vs criminal aliens. You continue to ignore state/federal vs. local. And, the list goes on.

It’s like trying to debate with a savant with VD (verbal diarrhea). It’s easy to cut and paste and make big long posts. It’s hard to be succinct and make the data relevent. Here’s a hint; you’re neither.

Posted by: Dave at April 11, 2006 12:23 PM
Comment #139867

R.V.

It’s kind of like looking at the accident as you drive by, isn’t it?

Posted by: Dave at April 11, 2006 12:24 PM
Comment #139887

Yep. RV.

Posted by: RV. at April 11, 2006 1:27 PM
Comment #139895

Dave, R.V.

You both twist the data, and I’ve proven it beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Dave wrote: You said: GAO-05-337R report says criminal aliens are convicted aliens I said: GAO-05-646R is for Arrests, not convictions.
I know. So? One report is for arrests, and one is for convictions too. How does that help your argument that they are “arrests” only? It doesn’t of course. You make absolutely no sense. You may be used to fooling some people (such as R.V.) with such nonsensical dribble, but not everyone.

You two are just mad because you made fools of yourself. Especially R.V. He likes to play the race card.

But, that’s no reason to get mad at me.

I don’t make the GAO, DOJ, and BJS reports.

One can only make a fool of one’s self.

And you two have succeeded completely.

Visit this site, and educate yourselves.
Or, if you enjoy making a fools of yourselves, please continue. I’ll be more than happy to point to the obvious flaws in your non-sequiturs, flawed math, and illogical conclusions.
_________________________________________
Stop Repeat Offenders.
Don’t Re-Elect Them !
_________________________________________


Posted by: d.a.n at April 11, 2006 2:02 PM
Comment #139959

d.a.n.y.

I’m not mad, It’s really more of a twisted amusement. But, for your edification, if you had avoided derisive and egotistical language, I would have maintained my decorum. If you had focused on the few key details instead of trying to ‘overwhelm’ with voluminous, often irrelevant, numbers, there could have been a discussion.

I’m curious, how old are you?

later…

Posted by: Dave at April 11, 2006 4:30 PM
Comment #139999

Dave,

I’m not mad either.
My age is 48.

A review indicates this all started on the other “Illegal Immigrants are Already Felons” thread, which spilled over into this thread.

You may have the wrong idea about me.
I’m not that egotistical. In fact, I don’t know how many times someone actually called me “humble”. What may appear as stubborness is really that I simply believe my facts.

Do you know how politically incorrect it is to say illegal aliens increase crime rates? I’m not doin’ myself any favors here at all. People call me racist, xenophobe, and worse. But, I’ll stick by my conclusion, because as far as I can tell from a whole year of almost non-stop researdch is that illegal aliens are indeed raising the crime rates. Any one, like myself, Frosty Woolridge, D.A. King, Michelle Malkin, Jerry Seper (Washington Times), etc. are not doing ourselves any favors. We are hated by many even though most Americans want illegal immigration stopped. But, they are afraid to stand up because the don’t want to be called a racist.

What got me started was your following post to
me:

Dave wrote: d.a.n. Please try to go beyond your paradigm.
It escalated after that.

But, I commend you for keeping your cool.
The same can not be said about R.V.
A few moments ago, R.V. was over on another thread trashing me to other people. No big deal. He’s showin’ his own ass. He’s also the one that played the race card. I hate that.

But, also, we’ll just have to agree to disagree crime rates. The real issue is the crime rate, and I still believe the crime rates have increased in the last 10 years due to illegal immigration. You don’t believe it and that’s OK.

Still, I don’t like racism, and this has nothing to do with race. It has to do with what is right and what is wrong. I do no believe the U.S. is for the public use of illegal aliens from all over the world, no more than your home is for the public use of illegal aliens.
The illegal aliens mere coming here for work should not be demonized. It is not about race.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 11, 2006 6:46 PM
Comment #140403

d.a.n

I happen to agree that illegal immigration is a major problem. That happens when you encourage people to come into the country and ignore their illegal status for economic reasons, it distrots the fabric of society when you live and work here but can’t expect equal treatment. It makes these people subject to the capricious whim of whomever pays them, the police who can (although I hope they don’t) abuse their power over them, etc… etc… etc…
We clearly don’t agree that crime rate is increasing along with their percentage of a population. In fact, the data I read shows the opposite. I just wish you were able and willing to: distinguish between illegal and criminal aliens, the effects of the recent increase in enforcement on arrest numbers, review the “denominator” argument, make sure you don’t assign causation to a statistic, differentiate between a value at time=x (e.g. how many in jail on 12/24/04) and an integral over time from t=y to x (e.g. how many were arrested for all of 2004), etc…
If you could, try looking at the data assuming my point of view is correct. It might surprise you.

BTW: I looked at your home page. We are the same age and one of my degrees is the same as yours, although I’m still in hardware. The rest, however, is very different.

Posted by: Dave at April 13, 2006 10:35 AM
Comment #140405

I took your politics test; I’m
-3.6 economic, -5.6 social; i.e. libertarian left . Pretty near the dali lama.

Posted by: Dave at April 13, 2006 10:46 AM
Comment #140443

Dave,
Thanks.
That’s interesting.
Your significant Libertarian leaning may explain a few things (maybe).
Did the results surprise you ?
One way to get a feel for the other political types, is to take the test and answer the questions a different way.
I would like to see a more thorough test with a few more dimensions added to split out social, economic, philosophical, and cultural indicators.

Yes, we probably agree on many things, except the increasing crime rate.

I do see your point about the distinction between criminal and illegal aliens.
Don’t you mean criminal legal immigrants and criminal illegal aliens ?
At any rate, there are other sources that are strictly related to criminal illegal (non-citizen) aliens only.

Dave,
I would not, no way, ever say such a thing (that illegal aliens increase crime rates) if I didn’t believe it were true (not just slightly or in a few cases), and have overwhelming evidence to support that conclusion. Not just one or two instances of anectdotal evidence, but credible sources, and numerous reports from multiple sources.

There was a time, supported by reports before 1990, that crime rates for illegal aliens was no different than that of U.S. citizens. Statistics are difficult to prove this, but I don’t have any difficulty believing it.
However, illegal immigration started skyrocketing after 1985. Reagan’s amnesty program is to thank for that.
Now, crime rates in many cities in border states, many border cities, and many southern states are all reporting increasing crime rates due to illegal aliens. They are not all lying, since their numbers, in many instances, have been confirmed by independent agencies.

There is no doubt that there is a very strong and powerful lobby that wants to keep illegal aliens here. Republicans want cheap labor, Democrats want votes, and most voters cower from the subject because they know they will be called racist, xenophobe, isolationist, etc.

There is no proof to disprove what I am saying, because the proof does not exist. The most I’ve seen is one editorial theorizing that illegal aliens are not increasing crime rates, and a couple of much older reports from the 1990s that believed crime rates were no different for illegal aliens than U.S. citizens. That was probably true at one time, but no longer. Gangs and drug trafficing are a big part of the problem, but the range of crimes by illegal aliens are much broader now too. But, in all of the discussion of crime, there are those they prefer to overlook several crimes such as the illegal trespass of our border, driving illegally, without insurance, using fake drivers licenses, fake Social Security numbers, fake voter registrations, fraudulent voting, and defrauding our Medicaid and welfare systems. Those are uncounted crimes too.

Also, notice the states sorted by violent crime rates. What do all of these states have in common?

This is a correlation of my own, but I don’t think it is mere coincidence. And, it has nothing to do with race. It is the usual result of massive, chaotic, uncontrolled illegal immigration.

Then, go to each state and see what the law enforcement systems are saying (see examples below), time and time again. For instance (and this is just a tip of the iceberg; there is much more):

  • Last year, Phoenix, Arizona suffered 57,600 cars stolen by illegal aliens (500,000 illegals in that state) for use in drug smuggling and alien trafficking. If that many cars were stolen daily out of the U.S. Congressional parking lots, we,d see troops on the border within days.

  • Last summer in Boulder, Colorado, eight American daughters suffered rapes by eight illegal aliens who fled to Mexico afterward. All those women were somebody’s daughters and under the age of twenty-two.

  • In Los Angeles with millions of illegal aliens, thousands of drivers roll around the city with little signs that read, “F**K YOU, THIS IS MEXICO.” If thousands of illegal aliens without driver’s licenses rolled around Washington, D.C. daily with those little flashing L.E.D. signs in their back windows, the Beltway Boys would get a different perspective of the glories of “multiculturalism” and “diversity” they shove down our throats by allowing illegal aliens to break our laws.

  • PHOENIX – Television and radio stations began running ads in the Valley last week, paid for by the Coalition United to Secure America, attributing the 45% increase in homicides and 41% increase in home invasions to illegal aliens. Phoenix Police Department reports confirm those figures and Sgt. Tony Morales believes there is no doubt that the statistics are tied to illegal aliens.

  • According to statistics by the Salt Lake City Police Department (and verified by an independent study), 80% of all drug crimes in the City are committed by illegal aliens. In Salt Lake County, Utah, the equivalent number is 50%. That’s why Congressman Cannon is on the Immigration Subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee. He is working to insure that interior states, like Utah, are not overlooked in the war on illegal immigration.

  • In 2001, 87% of deportable aliens who received run letters disappeared, a number that was even higher (94%) if they were from terror-sponsoring countries.

  • 12/31/2002: Six-month figures revealed a 3.3% increase in violent crime in California, including a 16 percent rise in homicides, over the same span in 2001.

  • February 06,2006: The Monitor, According to the Department of Justice Bureau of Justice Assistance, more than a quarter of the approximately 400,000 days spent in the Hidalgo County Jail during the course of the 365-day period belonged to criminal illegal aliens convicted with at least one felony or two misdemeanors. (Days spent in jail during the pre-trial period were counted only if the criminal illegal alien was convicted of the crime.) The Hidalgo County Jail held 3,335 eligible criminal illegal alien inmates for the fiscal year 2005 reporting period, up from 3,136 criminal illegal alien inmates in 2004. These numbers have been confirmed through the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement vetting process, which runs inmate records through a series of databases to verify accuracy. The Hidalgo County jail only has approximately 1,200 beds. Not only do thousands of criminal illegal aliens crowd the jail, but many make repeat appearances.

  • 95% of 1,200 warrants for homicide in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens. 66% of 17,000 fugitive felony warrants are for illegal aliens.

  • Illegal aliens also disregard or are oblivious of our disease control laws. One illegal alien in Santa Barbara, California infected 56 other people with tuberculosis as reported on April 24, 2004, by the Santa Barbara
    Press-News, “Anatomy of an Outbreak”. Because illegal alien migration into the USA continues unabated for the past 20 years, we now have 16,000 new cases of incurable MDR tuberculosis in the past five years. We suffer 7,000 new cases of leprosy. We tolerate 100,000 new cases of hepatitis “A” in our society. Chagas Disease, which affects 14 million South Americans and kills 50,000 annually, streams across our borders as unchecked thousands of them enter our society.

  • John Mullaly a former NYPD homicide detective, states 70% of the drug dealers and other criminals in Manhattan’s Washington Heights were illegal aliens.

But, once again, crime is only part of the problem. Even if all the crime is ignored, there is still the other numerous issues stemming from illegal immigration, such as the huge burden (costing many tens of billion per year) on education, hospital, ER, healthcare, law enforcement, insurance, voting, and prison systems.

There are a lot of people I think cower from this subject, and I don’t like it either. It’s no fun being called racist, xenophobe, isolationist, and worse. But that is not reason to ignore the facts.

Also, another important point worth mentioning is: any crime by an illegal alien, is a crime that should have never happened.

But, I will be the first to admit it, and sincerely apologize for it, if I am wrong.
I’m open to view and research more data. I’ve been looking for it. The few articles are not credible, or old (before or not long after Reagan’s failed 1986 Immigration Reform).

But, unfortunately, I wish it weren’t all true, and wish someone could prove it all wrong, but no one has.

The fact is, when all of the data is finally assimilated, Americans are going to be outraged by the crime and other abuses, but it may be too late because politicians will continue to do nothing (as usual) while this, and our many pressing problems continue to grow in number and severity, threatening the future and security of the nation.
_________________________________________
Stop Repeat Offenders.
Don’t Re-Elect Them !
_________________________________________

Posted by: d.a.n at April 13, 2006 2:04 PM
Comment #140465

d.a.n.

We are an immigrent nation, selecting cases of bad-boys doesn’t mean they’re all bad and doesn’t mean the net result is negative. I’m sure we will remain in disagreement for a while to come on this issue.

But, I was not surprised by the tests results. I believe in a minimalist government whose prupose is to service the needs of its people. Among those needs are

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.—That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, —That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security
and
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
I love those documents!

Posted by: Dave at April 13, 2006 3:28 PM
Comment #140486
d.a.n. We are an immigrent nation, …

Dave,
I’ve heard that many times: We are all immigrants.
But, that does not justify massive, uncontrolled illegal immigration.
It does not justify illegal trespass.
It is not an open invitation, no more than you would allow illegal aliens to come to your home, settle in, and invite a few friends.

d.a.n. … selecting cases of bad-boys doesn’t mean they’re all bad and doesn’t mean the net result is negative.
Of course not. I never said that. It’s nonsense for anyone to say all illegal aliens are bad (even excluding their crime of illegal trespass), but increasing crime rates can not be ignored.

In 2004, the just education, healthcare, and incarceration costs were $10.5 billion ($7.7 for education).
“… cheap illegal-alien labor is bankrupting the state and posing enormous burdens on the state’s [CA] shrinking middle-class tax base.” (said FAIR President Dan Stein)

A similar study by the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, said U.S. households headed by illegal aliens used $26.3 billion in government services during 2002, but paid $16 billion in taxes, an annual loss to California taxpayers of $10 billion. That was four years ago. It’s even worse now.

A 5-July-2005 study reveals the overall losses to U.S. taxpayers for education, heatlhcare, and crime:

  • 15% of California’s prison inmates are illegal aliens, costing the state more than $500 million annually.

  • Hospitals provide emergency treatment to all who walk through the door, regardless of their citizenship status or ability to pay. In 2001, America ‘s hospitals provided nearly $21 billion in uncompensated health care services. That was 5 years ago. It’s worse now.

  • Welfare and Government Assistance: Fraudulent Social Security cards, driver’s licenses and birth certificates are being bought by thousands of illegal immigrants each year. These false documents are used by individuals to get millions of dollars worth of welfare, public housing and Social Security benefits.

  • It would cost a staggering $8 billion per year over the next five years to deport all illegal aliens (a total of $41 billion). However, illegal aliens being in the U.S. creates a loss of over $26.3 billion per year (in 2002 dollars). Do the math. GDP is $12 trillion per year. $41 billion is a miniscule 0.34% of our GDP, and a mere 1.86% of the annual revenues for 2005.

I respect those documents too (i.e. Constitution).
But, those are very broad statements, and often misused to make a case for illegal aliens rights.

Still, I don’t see any conflict between those and any of the facts presented here.

Nothing in the Constitution says the rights of foreigners, that illegally trespass our borders, trump the rights of a sovereign nation to secure their own border.

Nothing in the Constitution says the U.S. is for the public use of the rest of the world no more than your home is for the public use by anyone that isn’t invited. We must enforce the existing laws and prosecute those that illegally employ illegal trespassers.

The pie is only so big.
Sure, everyone would like what we’ve built here.
But, if we let everyone in, there will be nothing for anybody in the end, which is always the devasting result of massive, uncontrolled illegal immigration.

I’m sure we will remain in disagreement for a while to come on this issue.
Yes. Even though I there is overwhelming evidence to support the fact that illegal aliens are causing increased crime rates, and a net loss to tax payers.

But, that’s OK. Later.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 13, 2006 5:07 PM
Comment #140535

you mean; even though the data shows a net benefit to society in terms of increased productivity from a population with lower-than-average criminals.

Posted by: Dave at April 13, 2006 8:48 PM
Comment #140590

(1) How Much Do Illegal Aliens Cost U.S. Taxpayers?

(2) Cost of Illegal Aliens: $10 billion per year (at federal level only)

(3) Cost of Education for all states for illegal immigrants costs: $7.4 billion annually.

(4)

(5)In 2005, it is estimated to be over $70 billion.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 14, 2006 1:58 AM
Comment #140623

So each of the 11 million “illegals” must add $6,300 to the economy to be even? If 1/4 work that’s about $25k. Ask Wal-Mart how much they saved using their illegals.

Posted by: Dave at April 14, 2006 9:23 AM
Comment #140682

Dave,

You are persistent.

Tax payers do not benefit from the cheap labor.

Greedy employers of illegal aliens profit from it mostly.

Greedy employers sustain and profit from an under-paid underclass (practically slave labor).

That is corroborated by three major economic indicators:

  • (1) falling median wages for the last six consecutive years;

  • (2) gap between the wealthy and everyone else is larger now than anytime since the Great Depresion of 1929 ;

  • (3) Corporate profits are at a 45 year high ;

And, the massive cost of crime and misery from increased crime rates can not even be accurately calculated. It’s worth pointing out that those are crimes that should have never occurred.
What is the cost of the increased crime rates (29% of prisoners are illegal aliens) , and one person (in CA, AZ, and TX) that is murdered every 86 hours by illegal aliens (source: GAO-5646R) ?
What is the cost of Americans that can not receive medical care because illegal aliens have mugged our healthcare system ( 32% of illegal aliens are on welfare) ?
What is the cost of illegal aliens fradulently voting in our elections?

It is a total myth that illegal aliens create a net cost benefit to the majority of American taxpayers, because most illegal aliens are not highly skilled or highly educated, they consume more benefits (per capita) than U.S. citizens (i.e. education, healthcare, ERs, Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, welfare, etc.), and increase crime rates. You may choose to disbelieve it, but you can not disprove it, because it is true. If you could, you indeed, would have. That is why evidence to the contrary is overwhelming, and that does not even include data and reports for the last few years, which will be even more damning.

That is why illegal alien proponents can not find any data or facts to support that myth. None, because it does not exist.
The inability to establish facts to disprove the net loss frustrates illegal alien proponents, so they often resort to weak, lame tactics, such as playing the race/color card.
If a net cost benefit to the majority of American taxpayers actually existed, why are most Americans upset, and concerned about the cost burden being forced onto them by illegal aliens and a complicit federal government (that forces states to provide education, healthcare, welfare, and a myriad of services to illegal aliens, but ignore illegal immigration laws)?

The averarge U.S. tax payer is being squeezed by:

  • [1] a few vastly wealthy who control our FOR-SALE government,

  • [2] corrupt, bought-and-paid-for incumbent politicians (the puppets),

  • [3] corporations (the puppeteers; capitalism run amuck; corporatism & corpocrisy),

  • [4] illegal aliens employed by greedy employers who reap the benefits of a low-paid underclass,

  • [5] and increasing foreign competition that is increasingly better educated (while we import poverty and tens of millions of uneducated).

Dave,
You are persitent.
You have raised many good points, and they all have been addressed.
You may still disagree, and that is your right to believe what ever you want.
Anything else? : )

Posted by: d.a.n at April 14, 2006 3:00 PM
Comment #140902

Yes, I’ve debunked the criminality relationship to illegals before, no need to repeat. Let’s just finish with that I agree with the rest, always did.

Tax payers do not benefit from the cheap labor.

Greedy employers of illegal aliens profit from it mostly.

You mean you don’t believe in trickle-down? Posted by: Dave at April 15, 2006 4:39 PM
Comment #140972
Dave wrote: You mean you don’t believe in trickle-down?

Nope. Trickle down is a myth perpetuated by crooked, bought-and-paid-puppet politicians to justify tax breaks for their greedy puppeteers.

Trickle down can’t work if the greedy employer keeps most of the profits, doesn’t pay taxes, pays sub-minimum wage, or way below the “going” wage.
Once an illegal alien is here, they are at the mercy of these greedy employers.

Also, we are not talkin’ about high paying jobs, so how much can trickle down?

You have not debunked the criminality issue, since 29% of prisonsers are illegal aliens due to massive, uncontrolled illegal immigration. Wait until more recent reports are available. It will be worse. Some are already estimating 33% of all prisoners are illegal aliens, and most are not for mere illegal immigration violations. As you know from the GAO-5646R report for CA, TX, and AZ, over 681,000 offenses were committed by 55,322 illegal aliens. That is about 13 offenses per illegal aliens. Based on GAO-5646R, there were 5592 murders that occurred at an average rate of 1 every 86 hours (in TX, CA, and AZ).


Just how sloppy is America’s immigration system? Well, an illegal alien worked in two White Houses. Shown at the left is Salvador Martinez-Gonzalez with Vice President Dick Cheney and his wife Lynn. (A similar photo of Martinez-Gonzalez with President Clinton also exists.) Martinez-Gonzolez worked for a company that sets up outdoor social functions at the White House. Everyone who comes into close contact with the President in the White House is supposed to be checked over by the Secret Service. As columnist Mark Steyn noted, CNN’s Candy Crowley had to undergo a six-month background check in order to get her White House press pass. In a time of war and terrorism, the idea that an illegal alien is moving freely among the nation’s leaders is unsettling, to say the least. But, when it comes to cheap labor, even the government is complicit. Martinez-Gonzalez was indicted in January 2003 on charges of illegal re-entry into the United States and possession of falsified documents.

But that’s OK if your not convinced, since crime is only one of numerous problems stemming from massive, uncontrolled illegal immigration … most of which you seem to agree with.

Posted by: d.a.n at April 16, 2006 12:56 AM
Comment #220522

Dems have small dicks and no brians
trees grow and your a ho
(save a cow, eat a vegetarian)
dam^ striaght

Posted by: Stumpy at May 16, 2007 1:17 PM
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