Immigration Contemplation

The correct, lawful solution to this immigration mess is to deport every illegal immigrant. Immigration is a federal issue therefore Congress will ultimately decide its fate. Right now, the House and the Senate have no plans to deport the entire illegal immigrant population. And, even if they did draft up a resolution to do this in a few years or a decade from now, millions of more illegal immigrants will already have poured into the United States. We have to face the fact: illegal immigrants are here to stay.

Who will have the dominant say in the politics of immigration is clear: Who has the most energy? Illegal immigrants and illegal immigration supporters numbering over 500,000 in Los Angeles, 50,000 in Denver, 20,000 in Phoenix, and 10,000 in Milwaukee vs. a dwarfed number in The Minuteman Project. Who will be the majority? A declining white population vs. a soaring (mainly illegal) immigrant population primarily from Mexico and Latin America. Times are changing.

Judging by the millions marching in the streets of the United States to oppose criminalizing illegal immigration, it is inconceivable to believe that there would not be resistance, possibly armed, in the process of deporting all illegal immigrants from the United States. If there was resistance, would a compassionate country like ours actually use tanks and airplanes to track down all illegals? Such a move could partition our country and leave us with uncut grass.

Towns across the southwest will soon resemble Maywood, south of downtown Los Angeles, and El Cenizo, a border town in southern Texas. The City Council of the town Maywood, where 96% of the population is Hispanic and more than half foreign-born, recently voted against any federal law criminalizing illegal immigrants or requiring police departments to enforce immigration law. El Cenizo, with Maywood-like demographics, voted to make Spanish the town's official language.

So where are we as a whole, as a "united" country, headed? Towards civil war and breakup - like Iraq with its competing ethnic and cultural groups? God, I hope not. But, if Hispanics assert their identity with Mexico and other Latin American countries, would other ethnic groups in the United States rush to assert theirs too?

Yesterday was the time for debating, for fixing our immigration system. Now, the crowd chants "today we march, tomorrow we vote."

Posted by Mike Tate at March 28, 2006 6:53 PM
Comments
Comment #136471

This reminds me so much of that scene in “Gangs of New York” where Bill The Butcher lost an election that got an Irish Sheriff for the city for the first time.

Bill sat there afterwards KNOWING that the times have indeed changed and the future belong to the foriegners. He KNEW it was over for him and his Natives.

His decision? Go down fighting!!!!

Posted by: Aldous at March 28, 2006 7:37 PM
Comment #136472

When I first saw the protests I said - Just march them right on out while they are all gathered together … — I was ‘half joking’.
I sure thought well of the protesters holding up the American flag.
I did not approve of those waving the Mexican flag and saying California rightfully belongs to Mexico.
Skipping school to protest for rights of people who aren’t supposed to be here wasn’t the right thing to do either.

Immigration is not the problem - ILLEGAL MIGRATION & ILLEGAL Immigration are the problems.
(So-called)’President’ Fox is not willing to help his own people by improving the situation in Mexico. He encourages people to cross the border by any means they can. This makes things a bit easier on him while increasing a costly situation for us.

Secure the border then allow people to come in, in a LEGAL and organized manner.
Give those already here the opportunity to earn citizenship OR some kind of permanent worker status.

We need them and they need us.

We Americans don’t mind helping out immigrants with things such as education and healthcare AS LONG AS they are here legally.
If immigrants have the proper paperwork, laws we have protecting workers would also apply to them. It would be better for the immigrant.

There is a solution.
Blanket amnesty is not it and neither is an open border.

Posted by: dawn at March 28, 2006 7:44 PM
Comment #136473

How, exactly, do you suggest we deport 11 million people. We cant stabalize Iraq, which isn’t that much larger in population, and the illegals have the full support of the business communities. Something has to be done, but the congress has been wrestling with what. Creating an avenue for workers to be here legally is the only way to find them all and address the problem.

Posted by: iandanger at March 28, 2006 7:48 PM
Comment #136476

I disagree. Illegals must go. This is the only way to force companies to raise the pay of the poorest Americans. California had a good system in 1992. The Republicans should revive that.

Posted by: Aldous at March 28, 2006 8:02 PM
Comment #136480

aldos read the book gangs of new york by herbert asbury. hate to ruin your day but the movie was mostly fiction bill the butcher was in real life william poole and he never killed anyone he himself was murdered many years later.

Posted by: JAY at March 28, 2006 8:15 PM
Comment #136482

Our Politicians wimped out due to the unnecessary scare put out in the public of how everyone who helps illegals would become felons.

Let’s re-elect the wusses we have in power!! They are doing a fine job protecting us -all around!!

Posted by: dawn at March 28, 2006 8:20 PM
Comment #136483

Aldous,
We can’t stop dirty bomb materials from comming over our borders, do you really think we’re going to be able to find 11 million (its supposedly 12 million now, since the stat was for 05) people who have been here as long as they have? After that, where will we put them? do you think we have the resources to deal with this problem in purely a law enforcement manor? Bush wont even fully fund the border patrol, so anyone we deported (and deporting the 11-12 million would be expensive in and of itself) would be back in a few months.

FYI, brining race into this is just a bad idea. I’m not going to harp on that, but if someone else does, i really dont even want to watch that argument go down.

Posted by: iandanger at March 28, 2006 8:22 PM
Comment #136488

This is all about Nov. elections, neither side wants to alienate the highly motivated Hispanic vote.

Additionally, there is a trend here. The President violates the law on warrantless wiretapping. No problem, rewrite the law so its legal.

Illegal immigrants in the millions come into this country. No problem, rewrite the law so they are legal.

Speed limits on highways are established to insure public safety, but the majority of driver violate the law. No problem, just don’t enforce them unless you suspect the driver is under the influence or you have some other suspicion of the driver or passengers.

The Constitution says the state shall not establish religion. NO problem, Georgia writes a bill to include the Holy Bible in the school curriculum as an historical reference.

Geneva Conventions are established to help promote the humane treatment of our own prisoners in time of war. But, they interfere with Bush’s notion of intelligence gathering. No problem, Bush announces the U.S. is not bound by the Conventions since another sovereign nation is not involved in this war.

And on it goes. This is precisely how a nation of law will become a nation without respect for law and the order the enforcement of the laws can bring.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 28, 2006 8:38 PM
Comment #136492

“Immigration is not the problem - ILLEGAL MIGRATION & ILLEGAL Immigration are the problems” (dawn)
Agreed!!!!!!!! I am a liberal and frustrated by those of BOTH parties who refuse to have the interests of the citizens of the US, legal of course, at heart. They either cop out or are bought out by bug business. Typical of BOTH parties…..not JUST the left or right. To my imense frustration my elected rep, Lindsey Graham, was one of the sell outs and I have told him I will now do all I can to boot his traitorous arse out of office. This issue is non-negotiable to me…….how about the rest of you who care about this counrty……like Lou Dobbs and Cesar Chavez!
Chávez and the UFW would often report suspected illegal aliens who served as temporary replacement workers as well as who refused to unionize to the INS.
Too bad the hispancis disgraced his day by demonstratiting FOR the illegals!

Posted by: qitqat at March 28, 2006 8:52 PM
Comment #136494

“This is all about Nov. elections, neither side wants to alienate the highly motivated Hispanic vote.”

posted by David…

THIS is the one I don’t understand. The Hispanics I KNOW that have come here legally and jumped through all the hoops to become citizens are AGAINST giving amnesty to those who did not wait in line and get here the correct way.
SO…. EXACTLY who’s vote are they worried about losing?? The illegals who are NOT supposed to be voting anyway??

Posted by: Dawn at March 28, 2006 8:54 PM
Comment #136498

Let me rephrase that … The Americans who migrated from Mexico that I know….

Posted by: Dawn at March 28, 2006 9:04 PM
Comment #136499

good point dawn (the illegals who are not suspposed to be voting anyway??) again we are a country of immigrants…. legal…. immigrants. the illegal immigrants are the issiue. how many peoples from other countries who want to be legal immigrants are being held back because of illegal immigration? how is that fair to them?

Posted by: JAY at March 28, 2006 9:19 PM
Comment #136527

For those looking to learn more about this, Frosty Wooldridge has been researching and writing about it for years. Check it out.

He’s been waving the red flag for a long time, but both parties ignore it.

Most Democrats want votes.
Most Republicans want cheap labor.
So, nothing really happens.

When the hoop-la all dies down, government will continue to ignore the laws.

Existing laws already exist that prohibit illegal trespass of our border, but they are unenforced. They will continue to be unenforced, despite the fact that the cost of cheap labor outweighs the benefits.

But, bloated, corrupt government will never address such problems until voters do their part too, and vote responsibily to peacefully force government to be responsible too.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 28, 2006 11:27 PM
Comment #136529

From what I saw today in Dallas, I’m afraid we’ll have a war if we try to deport 28 million illegal aliens.

Irresponsible government ignored this problem, like many others, for many decades, until it is too late to deal with it.

And voters just sit around and complain about it. No wonder many politicians have such a disdain of voters.

Posted by: d.a.n at March 28, 2006 11:30 PM
Comment #136534

Bill: At my challenge, by the ancient laws of combat, we are met at this chosen ground, to settle for good and all who holds sway over the five points: us natives, born rightwise to this fine land, or the foreign hordes defiling it.

Crowd: Yeah.

Priest Vallon: By the ancient laws of combat, I accept the challenge of the so called “natives.” They plague our people at every turn, but from this day out, they shall plague us no more. For let it be known, that the hand that tries to strike us from this land shall be swiftly cut down.

Crowd: YEAH.

Posted by: Aldous at March 28, 2006 11:48 PM
Comment #136537

Boss Tweed: That’s the building of our country right there, Mr. Cutting. Americans aborning.

Bill: I don’t see no Americans. I see trespassers, Irish harps. Do a job for a nickel what a nigger does for a dime and a white man used to get a quarter for. What have they done? Name one thing they’ve contributed.

Boss Tweed: Votes.

Bill: Votes, you say? They vote how the archbishop tells them, and who tells the archbishop? Their king in the pointy hat what sits on his throne in Rome.

Posted by: Aldous at March 28, 2006 11:54 PM
Comment #136540

It seems that this will end up being a imigration capitulation.
We have waited far too long to have this happen at all.
I live in the southwest. I know that unless the employers are paying these folks under the table (and therefore breaking the exisisting laws knowingly), they are also having to insure these folks for unemployment and workmans comp, as well as carrying them on their liability insurance. It is already illegalto hire an undocumented worker. Why aren’t these laws being enforced (before I get a deluge of insults the question is retorical)?
If there are no jobs they will cease to come, that seems pretty simple to me.

Posted by: Rocky at March 29, 2006 12:05 AM
Comment #136544

Rocky:

Employers don’t pay insurance and compensation for illegals. That’s one of the big draws for hiring them. Pure profit all the way.

That’s why I want a wall. Take the decision away from anyone and just make it physically impossible to cross.

Posted by: Aldous at March 29, 2006 12:26 AM
Comment #136548

Aldous,

It will be cheaper to fly every one of the illegals home than it will be to build a wall.

Posted by: Rocky at March 29, 2006 12:49 AM
Comment #136551

Rocky:

Not if you add the costs when they come back.

Building a wall is cheaper. An outer wall and an inner wall will guarantee that anyone out, stays out. Then, we can reduce the expense in the interior of the country as we deport the illegals found. Once they are gone, we shift all the money to holding the wall.

Cheap.

Posted by: Aldous at March 29, 2006 1:23 AM
Comment #136557

We need them and They need us
Dawn

Most Democrats want votes.
most republicans want cheap labor.
Dan

They need us and we choose to need them. If, in fact, that they are only here to work, the solution is simple. Immediately stop ALL welfare, both indiviual and corporate. This will do three things, supply an influx of cheap labor in to the job market, bring the federal budget closer in line to being balanced, and stop consumers from being charged triple for the same product (purchase price, tax and corporate welfare). This is a complete win win situation, the republicans will have their cheap labor, and the democrats should be able to finally persuade those people who would now be considered “working” poor that they need to vote.
Everybody Wins. YEAH!!

Posted by: gus at March 29, 2006 3:01 AM
Comment #136563
Building a wall is cheaper. An outer wall and an inner wall will guarantee that anyone out, stays out.

Hey, wait a minute. That would also keep in anyone who wants to leave…

Posted by: American Pundit at March 29, 2006 6:26 AM
Comment #136568

iandanger,
How, exactly, do you suggest we deport 11 million people.”

Thank you for posting that question… it is one that I have been thinking about myself.

Imagine 11 million people being relocated en mass. I have tried and it is beyond my imagination. If I try to think of 1/4 being working adults that is 2.7 million workers. (I know that someone will want to bring out statistics… 55,000 aliens committing 13 crimes each, the number of aliens in our prisons… hoping that we can extrapolate from that the idea that all aliens are lazy, drug addicts and criminals).

I believe that this is a fair estimate… but people can try other numbers if they wish… doesn’t change the point… unless you are believe like Stalin…. to paraphrase him… 1.2 million workers is a tragedy, 2.7 million is a statistic. The actual number doesn’t really matter. It is BIG.

For us:
Could we stand to lost 2.7 million workers in a short time? Ah, it would be like after the Black Death in Europe… the loss of so many people would increase the demand for labor and help loosen the bonds of serfdom. However, in a modern economy… chance our we would end up with out of control inflation as wages increase and companies increased prices to cover the costs… spiraling up and up and up.

Each death attributed to a forced massive migration I guess the “Trail of Tears” will be eclipsed and become a minor footnote in history.

The cost is back breaking for the American taxpayer! Someone quoted a $1.6 billion dollar a year cost to America. The Republican party gave a gift to the HMOs of $22 billion over 10 years. That is $2.2 billion a year. Given in a closed door meeting, no Democrats allowed. No debate, no discussion. Not a darn peep! People, that gift comes out of our pocket… it has to be made up in our budget somehow… guess how? Us!!! But, not a peep. Shows our priorities!!!

It doesn’t matter, they are breaking the law. While I cannot argue that…. unlike the common misconception… it wasn’t (and still isn’t yet a “felony”. Regadless, a felony. Okay? We try to move 11 million people into countries (there are more than just Mecicans, they just stand out more) where facilities, houses, jobs and social structures are incapable of supporting them… we will have starvation, disease, crime and probably a whole new set of people pissed to the point of strapping bombs around their waist.

We cannot worry about how it looks. We went to war with Iraq for various reasons… eventually narrowing down as a benevolent desire to free the Iraqi people from their abuser. Now, we turn around, knowingly wanting to displace 11 million people regardless of the consequences and what will happen to them? Why should we care about Iraqis on the other side of the world and not care about people within our borders?

11 million people!!!! Imagine that for just a moment. Imagine one of our states where the entire population is displaced. We are having one hell of a time with the displaced from New Orleans!

Finally, stop saying it is not about race, it is about their being illegal! I have heard and still continue to hear about the loss of American jobs to legal immigrants… those on work visas.

As I have mentioned numerous times… the arguements weave throughout America’s immigration “reform” movement. If these people do become “legal” that will not stop the dislike of these people. It will become, “They weren’t here legally!”

It will be, “We are just encouraging them.” Which might be true. However, unlike that pesky horse that keeps getting out of the barn and making it too late… if we allow these 11 million people legal status, do not displace them so they will die or suffer untold misery upon themselves and the socities they are moved to, then we might be able to close the door and still maintain our belief in us as moral people.

Plase feel free to blast away.

Posted by: Darren7160 at March 29, 2006 7:24 AM
Comment #136577


A wall…? Won’t they just end up living inside those big freight boxes in our ports then? Won’t they float over on driftwood or pack themselves into semi trucks? I really don’t think you can physically contain a country this large. In fact that’s just plain funny.

As for taking our jobs, it’s nonsense. Aldous said: “Illegals must go. This is the only way to force companies to raise the pay of the poorest Americans.” Umm… Large companies will just outsource those jobs overseas, legally. If you actually managed to stop illegal immigration, you would NOT get many jobs back.

The real issue that I can see is providing benefits like healthcare to illegals when so many Americans still don’t have it. Yes, I’m jealous, I can’t get healthcare (wrong income bracket; too high for getting charity, too low to afford it myself.) I don’t have kids because I can’t afford private school & other niceties. So start from there… fix our own healthcare and education.

Longterm, why not start outsourcing to Mexico the same jobs that they do here? Then those people could make the same money, be close to their families, and not burden our social programs. I’m not really kidding… hmmm. Why outsource to India when our neighbors could do those jobs? I realize that’s oversimplified, but I do think that we’re all looking in the wrong direction here.

Squeaky

Posted by: Squeaky at March 29, 2006 8:27 AM
Comment #136579

if we can’t stop the changes happening it is really a sad day for america. Once the shining light of freedom around the globe will have turned into lawlessness, all because we have allowed our country to be overrun with criminals. we need to put a deterrence to illegal immigration. we need to do what the soviets would have done in poland to westerners who crossed the border illegally. KILL THEM ALL.

Posted by: ljboru at March 29, 2006 8:40 AM
Comment #136582

Making illegal immigrants legal is every bit as bad for our country as making theft legal and emptying our jails and prisons of theives. It will encourage and reward many, many others to follow that path.

The logic is inescapable.

Posted by: David R. Remer at March 29, 2006 9:01 AM
Comment #136594

This entire immigration “scandal” would be hardly a mention if the federal government (specifically the Executive branch which under our Constitution is mandated to enforce our federal laws) would enforce the already-on-the-books against all and every and each employer who hires illegal workers…no jobs, very little border crossing…but the so-called “chief” executive has chosen NOT to enforce the law of the land (what about the “rule of law” thing he kept mentioning during the 2000 campaign…guess that was just a slogan, huh?) to satisfy his crony corporation heads’ lust for illegal and immoral profit…not a care as to what his failure to enforce the law has done to the common worker…as usual.

People who are so up in arms and incensed at the number of illegal workers are still blaming the workers, not the chief executive enabler…

Posted by: Lynne at March 29, 2006 9:26 AM
Comment #136596

Darren7160:

Finally, stop saying it is not about race, it is about their being illegal! I have heard and still continue to hear about the loss of American jobs to legal immigrants… those on work visas.

When all people mention is “Mexicans”, of course it is about race…because 43% of those who cross our southern borders are NOT Mexican…none of those crossing our northern borders is Mexican…where is any mention of the 43%+ of illegals who are NOT Mexican?????

Until that 43%+ is mentioned, it IS abour nationality/race!

Posted by: Lynne at March 29, 2006 9:30 AM
Comment #136598

I took this directly from the Times Op Ed:

“Here’s one way to kill a cow: take it into the woods in hunting season, paint the word “deer” on it and stand back.

Something like that is happening in the immigration debate in Washington. Attackers of a smart, tough Senate bill have smeared it with the most mealy-mouthed word in the immigration glossary — amnesty — in hopes of rendering it politically toxic. They claim that the bill would bestow an official federal blessing of forgiveness on an estimated 12 million people who are living here illegally, rewarding their brazen crimes and encouraging more of the same.

That isn’t true. The bill, approved by the Senate Judiciary Committee in a 12-to-6 vote on Monday, is one the country should be proud of. Four Republicans, including the committee’s chairman, Arlen Specter, joined eight Democrats in endorsing a balanced approach to immigration reform. The bill does not ignore security and border enforcement. It would nearly double the number of Border Patrol agents, add resources for detaining illegal immigrants and deporting them more quickly, and expand state and local enforcement of immigration laws. It would create a system to verify workers’ identities and impose tougher punishments on employers who defied it.

But unlike the bill’s counterpart in the House, which makes a virtue out of being tough but not smart, the Specter bill would also take on the hard job of trying to sort out the immigrants who want to stay and follow the rules from those who don’t. It would force them not into buses or jails but into line, where they could become lawful residents and — if they showed they deserved it — citizens. Instead of living off the books, they’d come into the system.

The path to citizenship laid out by the Specter bill wouldn’t be easy. It would take 11 years, a clean record, a steady job, payment of a $2,000 fine and back taxes, and knowledge of English and civics. That’s not “amnesty,” with its suggestion of getting something for nothing. But the false label has muddied the issue, playing to people’s fear and indignation, and stoking the opportunism of Bill Frist, the Senate majority leader. Mr. Frist has his enforcement-heavy bill in the wings, threatening to make a disgraceful end run around the committee’s work.

The alternatives to the Specter bill are senseless. The enforcement-only approach — building a 700-mile wall and engaging in a campaign of mass deportation and harassment to rip 12 million people from the national fabric — would be an impossible waste of time and resources. It would destroy families and weaken the economy. An alternative favored by many businesses — creating a temporary-worker underclass that would do our dirtiest jobs and then have to go home, with no new path to citizenship — is a recipe for indentured servitude.

It is a weak country that feels it cannot secure its borders and impose law and order on an unauthorized population at the same time. And it is a foolish, insecure country that does not seek to channel the energy of an industrious, self-motivated population to its own ends, but tries instead to wall out “those people.”

It’s time for President Bush, who talks a good game on immigration, to use every means to clarify the issue and to lead this country out of the “amnesty” semantic trap. He dislikes amnesty. Mr. Frist dislikes amnesty. We dislike amnesty, too.

The Specter bill isn’t amnesty. It’s a victory for thoughtfulness and reason.”

Posted by: Max at March 29, 2006 9:46 AM
Comment #136601
Making illegal immigrants legal is every bit as bad for our country as making theft legal and emptying our jails and prisons of thieves. It will encourage and reward many, many others to follow that path. The logic is inescapable.

According to the Center for Immigration Studies, an incredible 29% of all prisoners in our state and federal prison system population are illegal aliens. In a GAO Report of FBI Data, since 1947, illegal aliens have murdered 5992 people (an average of 1 murder every 86 hours). Most of those crimes occurred after 1990.

Yesterday (28-Mar-2006), student protests in Dallas were not so peaceful. A Dallas policemen was assaulted. One 15 year old (without a driver’s license, of course) rolled her vehicle. Hundreds, maybe thousands, stormed onto the trains without paying. Then they stormed Dallas City Hall (even though city government has nothing to do with it). Then many climbed into the fountain next to City Hall.
Most surveyed didn’t even know what they were protesting, as they waved their Mexican flags. Most schools gave them an excused absence, and even sent buses to pick them up.

But, crime is just part of it. There are other serious issues:


  • burden on education systems;

  • burden on healthcare systems;

  • burden on hospital systems;

  • burden on welfare systems;

  • burden on Social Security system;

  • burden on Medicaid system;

  • burden on border patrol systems; ever increasing numbers are needed;

  • burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;

  • burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;

  • burden on prison systems; 29% of those in state and federal prisons (Sep-2004) are illegal aliens;

  • voter fraud; burden on voting systems;
  • The cost of cheap labor outweighs the benefits.

    There are 1 million illegal aliens living in Dallas, TX. and surrounding counties.
    There were 4,000 births last year at the Laredo, TX Medical Center maternity ward. 3997 healthy, screaming new American citizens, of which about half were born to illegal aliens. Mothers giving birth in U.S. maternity wards in order to obtain better care - and blue passports - for their offspring.
    Property taxes for schools are through the roof.
    The cost of medical care and insurance is becoming un-affordable.
    Hospitals are not allowed to report illegal aliens.
    Just since 01-Jan, an estimated 873,731 illegal aliens have entered the country.

    Some people might want to make a race issue out of this, but to say it is merely a race issue is to ignore all of the above.
    When the consequences of this entire mess are realized, you will see a further tightening control over the lower social classes.
    We are being crushed under the weight and decisions of corrupt, irresponsible incumbent politicians and voters that tolerate it.
    We are selling ourselves out (for cheap labor?). Or, America sold out a long time ago, and we are merely witnessing the transfer of the assets of that sale now?
    When the deal is complete, like most corporate buy outs, people will start losing more than just their jobs, and that day seems to be getting closer and closer every day.
    If Americans apathetically standby, once again, and do nothing, then they deserve what ever they get.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 29, 2006 10:16 AM
    Comment #136602

    You can’t just build a wall.
    You have to eliminate the greedy employers that lure illegals here for sub-minimum wages.

    [] Secure the borders (with resources we already have and only 1% of the total active duty military, guard, and reserves)
    [] Require enforcement of all immigration laws. Enforce the existing laws.
    [] Require ALL employers to use the Social Security Verification System for ALL hires.
    [] Deny ALL illegal alien births automatic citizenship.
    [] Deny ALL illegal aliens a FREE K-12 education.
    [] Deny ALL illegal aliens ANY and ALL ‘public benefits.’
    [] Deny ALL illegal aliens driver’s licenses and in-state college tuition.
    [] Verify ALL voter’s citizenship, before permission to vote.

    By the way, a wall is not needed. Just a patroled fence. It would not cost much, and it would use resources we already have. Don’t believe those that say it can not be done.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 29, 2006 10:23 AM
    Comment #136604


    See: weneedafence.com

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 29, 2006 10:26 AM
    Comment #136606

    My mother works in one of those hospitals just across the border. We discussed the issue of children born here automatically becoming citizens.
    In the past it was okay. People came from places much farther away and had no intention of using a baby to get there foot in our door.
    This is just another example of our own laws being used against us.
    It has to stop.

    Posted by: dawn at March 29, 2006 10:28 AM
    Comment #136607

    TRAIL OF TEARS II

    David,
    One day, when I have my students open their books to the part about a mass, forced migration of 11 million people that killed untold amounts… would you please be my guest speaker?

    If we cannot hook up then… please feel free to offer that service to the local school. I know that there will be a lot of teachers that will be grateful to not have to explain it.

    I would hate to be accused of being politically correct or an historical revisionist when it comes time to explain this.

    Am I being hysterical? Crying wolf? What strain did it take to handle the people fleeing New Orleans? What cost? Also, many that questioned that cost… and these were American citizens!

    Those who do not wish to think about the entirety of their arguments and stand upon a narrow moral platform of “illegals” will have to be the ones that explain to future generations the loss of life caused here, in route and at their “home” country. I, for one, will not be an apoligist to mass murder.

    Costs. To the cost issue. I completely understand your position. Life is based on a value of cost associated with it. Thus, $1.6 billion dollars that the immigrants supposedly cost us is more than a lot of people can stand. Yet, $22 billion for HMO gifts are seen as just fine.

    As a side note, I always shook my head when I would hear a reporter talk about a person who got killed for only $20 that was in their wallet. I wondered if there was a certain amount to which it would be seen as being okay?

    Imagine losing all those workers at one time. All those renters. All those auto buyers… all those markets of consumers. Neighborhoods emptied out… grocery stores, video rental places, fast food joints empty. Imagine employers looking to replace the work done.

    I said it on this site and I heard it from a Political Science professor today… imagine if we could remove 11 million people from American without a loss of life. Best case scenario! We do it with “conservative compassion.”

    Yes, it would creat jobs (probably more than we native and legal immigrants could fill) and employers would be forced to pay us better wages. Wonderful, except that the increased costs would be passed onto the consumers who would need higher wages to maintain the standard of living… which would put pressure on the employers to pay us more… which means they would have to charge more… that, is called INFLATION.

    People see it as paying more for their salads or fresh fruit. Extrapolate it out. Think through the “easy fixes” of this “national crisis.”

    Possibly you can come in and explain the cost issue. If my calculations are right… if there are 11 million illegals and they are costing us $1.6 billion dollars… that comes out to about $145 per immigrant? Someone please check my figures.

    Tell the children in my class how these people, as a whole, did not contribute $145 to our economy. I bet there will be some nightmares that night wondering if they are worth $145.

    FELONS! These people are felons! I have been hearing that a lot. I checked… currently it isn’t a felony… but it might soon become one. Sometimes laws make criminals out of people. Heck, Any Rand had a theory that society creats all these laws and creates conflicting laws, just to make people always feel “guilty” and thus easier to control.

    Laws are different than ethics. It may be legal to produce and sell cigarettes (I am a smoker) but is it ethical? Segragation may be legal (as it was one time here) but was it ethical? Blind observence to the law, regardless of the morality behind the law lead to rationalizing away the “Jewish Question” upon the enactment of the Nuremberg Laws. Therefore, if I do not get morally indignant then it is possible that I have a different basis of morality and am left a bit cynical of the arguement.

    Now to all. I will probably hear a whole bunch of indignation, denials, “you don’t understand” and possibly name calling (no… we are all much to adult for that). However, I do not believe that it will be based upon the larger picture which I am presenting… but on a very narrowly focused hair that will be split… such as my math, or how I can’t equate our allowing a forced march of 11 million people to be equivalent to the Trail of Tears or to NAZI Germany.

    Oh, and probably attacks against my patriotsim, law obedience and possbily intelligence.

    See, I know all the arguements that have been laid out. And, I will again say it… very very narrowly focused with no conception of the ramifications…

    Just like the “Think Tanks” that churned out report after report of why we needed to remove Sadam… not a moments contemplation of how. Just do it! We are seeing the results of that level of our “best and brightest” thinking.


    Max,
    Funny, when I moved to Wisc. people asked me if I would go deer hunting. I told them that whenever they had open season on cows I would gladly hunt.

    Posted by: Darren7160 at March 29, 2006 10:28 AM
    Comment #136609

    Darren7160,
    You are right.
    There’s is no way to remove the illegal aliens here already.
    But, what we must do now is secure the borders, and put and end to the in-flow.
    Otherwise, we will all be losers.
    The cost is serious. Hospitals, healthcare, property taxes, and increased crime rates can not be allowed to get any worse.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 29, 2006 10:37 AM
    Comment #136610

    d.a.n.,
    I have always admired your meticulous research and clear presentations. Absolutely no sarcasm meant at all. I really do.

    What would be interesting for someone with such talents would be to research the arguments throughout our history… do a compare and contrast. Except for the legal status which was brought about by laws passing that gives it a legal basis for argument… the issues are exactly the same. Germans, Poles, Swedes, Irish, Italian, Greek, Japanese, Chinese…

    Again the costs… if you have the numbers available of the total cost of illegal immigrants to America… could that be divided by 11 million illegals for a per person cost?

    Now, the total cost. Is that above and beyond what they contribute to society through renting homes and apartments? Purchising food at the local grocery store? Renting videos? Buying clothes and shoes?

    Now, with the argument that all immigrants are paid under the table… that is not true. We know that some employers will use the payroll system… or some have illegal documentation… so money is being paid into the government by some that is not being taken out. Employers might risk the INS but will never want to mess with the IRS or the state tax boards… so there is probably some money going in through payroll taxes.

    What will happen if we lose 11 million consumers? If many of these people are centrally, geographically located, what will happen to those neighborhoods? The store that serve them? The owners of the apartment buildings?

    What will the loss of so many workers do to the wages and what will the company to to cover the increased costs of labor due to the labor shortage? What industries besides picking produce do the illegals work in that will have to pass on these increased costs to the consumer? What will employers in other fields do when their workers demand more money because it is cost more to buy the product that became more expensive.

    These are some of the issues that I don’t see addressed very much… and your ability to research and present the information just seemed like you might be the one that could widen the discussion to something more than dollars spent on illegals and the “legal” question.

    People want to blame politicans all the time. That they aren’t’ doing their job. However, it could be possible that once they are now in a position of responsibility and having to make decisions that could cause great harm to so many people, illegals and Americans in ways such as I am postulating… they realize that they have to think about larger issues.

    Thanks, as always for your contributions to the discussions!

    Posted by: Darren7160 at March 29, 2006 10:43 AM
    Comment #136612

    We’ve already lost the country to the illegal immigrants. Mexicans and Latinos (most illegal) are on track to become the lagest minority group by 2050 (census projections. The Hispanic birth rate is three times that of blacks and caucasions.) By that time, all of our southern border states will be predominently Hispanic and Spanish-speaking. And we have large Hispanic populations in many of the northern states. Nothing we do short of nuking Mexico is going to stop this process. My suggestion: Aprendar a hablar Espanol, amigo.

    Posted by: fatguy46 at March 29, 2006 11:16 AM
    Comment #136613
    The correct, lawful solution to this immigration mess is to deport every illegal immigrant.

    Posted by Mike Tate at March 28, 2006 06:53 PM

    Since when does “lawful” mean by default “correct”? There are clearly humane, pratical, and legal issues involved. Yet, with some exceptions (thanks Darren), what I hear is hate and fear of them. That’s the same thinking that got us Abu Grahib, the 100 years war, and the Berlin Wall.
    Posted by: Dave at March 29, 2006 11:18 AM
    Comment #136621
    Again the costs… if you have the numbers available of the total cost of illegal immigrants to America… could that be divided by 11 million illegals for a per person cost?

    That’a a good question.
    That would take a while to research.
    However, I think it is safe to say that the problem with the last 30 years is the magnitude.
    I don’t think the U.S. has ever before had this many illegal aliens, based on both total, and percentage of the the U.S. population.

    And, there is no doubt that massive, uncontrolled illegal immigration (especially in a nation as ours with so many entitlements ripe for abuse), is a burden on the society, and creates chaos, societal disorder, resentments, and fuels racism and hatred.

    As before, there is no way to deport 28,184,383 illegal aliens.

    The best solution now is:
    (1) is to stop the inflow now;
    (2) once border are secure, deport those in our jails back to their countries;

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 29, 2006 11:34 AM
    Comment #136623

    Immigration was at one of its lowest levels during the Great Depression of 1929.

    Perhaps that is what is needed ?

    And, that may not be far off ?

    Hmmmmm. Perhaps we have just happened onto the grand plan of the current administration ?

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 29, 2006 11:44 AM
    Comment #136630

    Dave,
    Thanks for the kindness. I do want to do something. I really do. I have mentioned how I, as a disbled vet am not entitled to state or county medical assistance because I have the VA, and the VA won’t help because it is not service connected.

    Sunday I was driving. It was a beautiful day here in Wisc. The sun was out and the weather warm… a small Latino family was at the little park here. A husband, his wife and his little girls. The husband and wife were holding hands and the girls were playing. The American dream! One many of us wish to aspire to. To raise our family in peace and to treasure the small things.

    Possibly they were here legally. But, because of their ethnicity (I won’t say nationality because I have no idea where they were born) some will view them as illegals, drug addicts, drunks and criminals. I refuse to.

    People accuse historians of being “negative” about America. Why don’t they highlight the good things? Why must America do things in blind anger, fear or reaction that later should be “brushed” under the rug?

    I imagine 400 or 500 years ago native Americans (Indians to the nonpolitically correct) having these same discussion… Why don’t we just ship back all these people invading our borders? They are trampling the glens, cutting down the trees, depleting our herds… it isn’t racial… it is…


    Fatguy,
    Thank you so much for your honesty. It is refreshing. If I had to choose between a person with views I didn’t agree with… or a person denying reality to try to win an arguement… I chose the person with views I don’t agree with. At least we are honest with each other, ourselves and can move forward from there.

    It is clear that it is about race. No one complains about Nortern Wisc. being populated by a buch of Poles, Swedes and Germans. They used too… but we turned out to be Americans just like everyone else.

    “We’ve already lost the country to the illegal immigrants. Mexicans and Latinos (most illegal) are on track to become the lagest minority group by 2050… Nothing we do short of nuking Mexico is going to stop this process. My suggestion: Aprendar a hablar Espanol, amigo.”

    With your contribution we can put to rest the protestations that it isn’t racial. IF these people are not American citizens then the cannot vote. Period. They cannot force the politicans to do anything… if they are, or become American citizens… well, then it will not matter what race or ethnicity because they will have the right to vote in people that reflect them… ain’t that a kick in the teeth? (Grin) Let us hope that they learn what it is to be American based on our actions…

    I believe that the majority always fears the minority because the minority might treat them the way they were treated. Just a thought.

    However, to use Wisc. as an example.. we do use English and not German to conduct business. No one is required to possess or little alone wear lederhosens or to celebrate Octoberfest… but most do join in for that ‘cause we Germans are a bunch of drunks. You know?

    However, suggesting nuking a foreign country, while possibly in jest or to exaggerate a point to make an illustration… well… it shows the same consideration of these people as human beings (children of God, if I may) that describing a woman (any woman)giving birth as “squirting” out another one.

    As a liberal, I shouldn’t be concerned I guess with vulgarity or manners. As a child of the 60’s and all… but as I get older I get more old fashioned… I miss politicans discussing issues in their entirety without a finger pointed or a look to see if the camera is on them. Civil discourse within which people can come to an agreement. Statesmen versus politicans…. Thoughtful commentators giving their views based on analysis, education and experience… not on shock or entertainment value.

    I do hope that when I die and face my maker… it is not with someone holding a calculator determining my contribution to this world based on my effect on the Gross Domestic Product or my ethnicity. I hope that it is based on my compassion of his other children… even when they do use my toys or bum a bit of money off of me.

    Posted by: Darren7160 at March 29, 2006 12:02 PM
    Comment #136634

    Darren, your comments reflect assumptions made that appear to come from outer space.

    Please point to a single reference in any of my comments that indicates the recommendation for mass all at once deportation of illegals? Go ahead, my strawman commenter, take the challenge.

    The fact is, this problem can be solved humanely. But not without first achieving the ability to HALT illegal immigration at the borders. That is the biggest hurdle, and the one Congress WILL NOT resolve. Any and ALL inhumanity that results from illegal immigration derives DIRECTLY back to Congress’ and the White House’s criminal negligence in failing to control immigration in the first place.

    Posted by: David R. Remer at March 29, 2006 12:11 PM
    Comment #136640

    The list of problems created by the bloated, corrupt, inept governments’ poor planning and inadequate immigration controls reads like a strategic plan for national decline.

    But not without first achieving the ability to HALT illegal immigration at the borders. That is the biggest hurdle, and the one Congress WILL NOT resolve.

    Exactly. First things first.

    Since Democrats want votes, and
    Republicans want cheap labor, and
    Voters are asleep at the wheel,
    it is going to be difficult (maybe impossible).

    But, since corrupt, bought-and-paid-for incumbent politicians will never pass and implement any reforms, the voters are the last chance. Scary, because voters rarely act until it is too late.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 29, 2006 12:36 PM
    Comment #136644

    Darren

    You’re response to my comment was so eloquently phrased I don’t know if I’ve just been insulted or complimented. But, either way - thanks!

    Posted by: Fatguy46 at March 29, 2006 12:46 PM
    Comment #136645

    So far, this debate has been argued with little regard for the econimic consequences of a mass deportation. The fact is that an employment equilibrium exists and a mass deportation would seriously dislocate it. More importantly, this is equilibrium is arguably at full employment.

    Most folks think of full employment as 0% but economists and the business world agree that full employment rates can range between 4% and 6.4%. What is your community’s employment rate? The chances are that they lie somewhere in this range. So, those who complain that these folks are taking our jobs should be prepared to work more than one job as a mass deportation would probably result in the assenine consequence of needing to import guest workers. Does scandinavia have a surplus of pretty, blond, workers for us? I doubt it. This puts back with the brown folks and it would not make you xenophobes very happy. At least you still have your Konan movies.

    Let me go back to this employment equilibrium. Milton Friedman, whom Republicans and some Democrats such as myself hold in high regard, postulated that an equilibrium exixts between employment and inflation. Low employment is achieved at the expense of higher inflation and vice-versa. A mass deportation at full-employment would result in inflationary pressures that would affect our lives so irreparably that even Bill and Priest Vallon would miss them brown folks.

    Standing on the legality issue seems safe but does it really make you feel good inside? I don’t hear anybody looking at this issue and saying: “What would Jesus do?” because they know the answer. It is also hard for me to imagine an East German feeling bad about the fatal illegality of climbing over the Berlin Wall. Somehow, these folks were properly called heroes. (Were they white? Uhm..)These folks and the brown ones here have one thing in common; They are willing to die to escape to a better life. Any claims that illegal immigrants come here to tax the system are xenophobes or at least not exactly in love with those who are different from them. This is simply a race thing. Admit it. There! Didn’t that feel good?

    Posted by: Roman at March 29, 2006 12:46 PM
    Comment #136667

    Roman

    Wouldn’t it be easier to just annex Mexico into the US? I’m sure Vincente Fox would be pleased with the title of governor of the great state of Mexico. That way, all those “little brown people” would become American citizens and the Democrats could add another 106 million new voters to their roster.

    Comparing Mexico to the former East Germany? Shock and entertainment? Where are you Darren?

    Posted by: Fatguy46 at March 29, 2006 1:44 PM
    Comment #136677

    It is strange and amusing that you would fail to see that I compared the people from these two countries and not the countries themselves. It is also entertaining to see that you did not argue with the claims contained in my posting. That is shocking but not very entertaining.

    Posted by: Roman at March 29, 2006 2:13 PM
    Comment #136684

    Sometimes I feel like the scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz. Ever hear of Occam’s Razor? Intellectuals can cite this expert or that expert and use big words that all us scarecrows don’t understand. But, in the end, it’s not intellectualism that wins the argument, but common sense. And when you break a problem down to its most basic element, the solution is usually more simple than complex. Whether or not you can accept that solution depends on whether you are an intellectual or a scarecrow.

    Posted by: Fatguy46 at March 29, 2006 2:35 PM
    Comment #136691

    So, Occam’s Razor is your default argument when you cannot prove its common sense with empirical data. If being an intellectual is your insult, I’ll take it. By the way, besides being an intellectual, I am a little brown guy who is half Mexican and all American. I wonder if you feel like I am taking away a perfectly good white guy’six figure position.

    Posted by: Roman at March 29, 2006 2:45 PM
    Comment #136703

    David,
    You could say I extrapolated it from:

    “Making illegal immigrants legal is every bit as bad for our country as making theft legal and emptying our jails and prisons of theives. It will encourage and reward many, many others to follow that path.

    The logic is inescapable.”

    Possibly I misinterpreted your intentions… If so, I am deeply sorry to have attributed allegations of complicity in mass murder. I just assumed (as they say, an ass-u-me) that along with the argument that there can be no legal status for these people, the next step was logically connected with the “force them out.”

    If that was not your belief of what should be done with the illegal immigrants, then again, my deepest apologies.

    However, I will stand by the logic of absolutely everything else I said… I just errored in presuming certain things about you.

    I am highlighting my apologies not to mock them, but to make them very clear to all that I did you a great misservice.

    Roman,
    Actually, Jesus was mentioned by Senator Clinton and was commented on by the weblog author and myself (as well as many other fine contributions too many to name) under the heading Illegal Immigrants Are Already Felons found on this site.

    I argued that misrepresenting Christ just to take a cheap shot at Senator Clinton was really uncalled for. I would invite you to view those postings.

    fatguy46,
    Thank you! Truthfully, I was not sure whether or not to take your words literally…

    Occam’s Razor might be a very good “rule of thumb” for what we might call, the hard sciences… however, I believe that using such as basis for determining a course of action in a system as complex as what is being discussed would lead to a complete misuse of its intended purpose. It has always been my understanding that it was used after all other explainations were exhausted… not as a first.

    We are dealing with human beings… itself a complex system, not to mention the impact on society made up of many conflicting motivations (the illegal aliens, employers that need them, American citizens, people following their religous convictions and becoming a felon because of the legal status of their charity). These cannot, usually, be boiled down to solutions fitting within 10 seconds on the news or a bumper sticker.

    A simple, push them back over the border just won’t work for many of the reasons I have mentioned and a lot more. To me, that would be common sense, because of the college courses I have taken in business, micro and macro economics, history, sociology, as well as sitting and thinking based upon my life’s experiences to get past my first “gut feeling”.

    Intelligence is often derided in politics and I find it fascinating… “Intellectual Elites” and all that. I wonder, who goes to Joe Blow at the bar for medical advice? Possibly listenting to people in the academic world about the culture and history of Iraq would have helped dispell the common sense that everyone wants democracy regadless of how they get it… everyone is like us and will welcome us with open arms.

    What people believe is common sense, often may not be… while colleges and universitites have people dedicated to determining the truth… one that holds up to scrutiny before their peers… backed by researh and often, source documents… they are derided for their conclusions because it doesn’t fit with a person’s political beliefs.

    I Love Irony
    This is for everyone…

    Want to contemplate an ironic situation? IF this situation had been dealt with in a logical, intelliegent manner… something could have been done that would meet the needs of most. Not the wants of them… but possibly the needs.

    Consider. If there hadn’t been the strident call for deporting 11 million people causing untold damage to them and to America’s economy then a workable solution for limiting illegal immigration could have been sought without a means of giving “legal” status to the ones already here….

    If the ones already here, all 11 million of them do become American citizens… well, it will all be because of the efforts of those that wanted to kick them out.

    Ain’t that a poser? If I were a conspiracy author I could write a book about how the illegal immigrant community created this uproar against them so this might happen.

    The fact will remain though… if they do get legal status it will be because of the people complaining about the legal status… then I guess they don’t have to complain any more.

    Will that mean then, that they aren’t all drug addicts driving drunk on the way to rob a bank?

    Posted by: Darren7160 at March 29, 2006 3:33 PM
    Comment #136705

    Roman

    Me thinks the gentleman doth protest too much. The reference to the “little brown people” was taken from your post and was meant as a point of reference only. FYI, I don’t judge people by race, ethnicity, religion or socio-economic background. In fact, I don’t judge people at all: I leave that to God. Like Dr. King, I prefer to base my opinion of people on their character. If you are earning that six-figure income you threw in my face, good on ya! Intellectuals have a bad habit of over-analyzing a problem, often looking past the simple while looking for the complex. I am a simple man, so I think in simple terms. You are an intellectual and think in intellectual terms. Where is the insult in that?

    Posted by: Fatguy46 at March 29, 2006 3:40 PM
    Comment #136730

    Sir,

    A monumental task such as the mass deportatation of millions of people is neither simple nor does it make good common sense. It merely satisfies the frustrations of those who would prefer to go back to a time when race was not an issue so long as you were white.
    Data quantifies and validates ideas or, as in this case, it renders its points invalid. Should we close the border with Mexico. Maybe. But we should do it in full apreciation of every possible consequence. Iraq is a fresh lesson in the art of ignoring pertinent data while validating marginal data that had the quality of enhancing a catastrophically inaccurate conclusion. Patriotism to you folks is rooted in blind faith for a party and not for love of country. I would just love it if you would refute any of my initial points with data. Being shown that we are wrong is something some of us intellectuals do not take as an insult.

    Posted by: Roman at March 29, 2006 5:49 PM
    Comment #136733

    Raman,
    I for one agree. Because what you say makes sense on more than an emotional level. There are other considerations… to deny them is to simply wish away economics, sociology, psychology, logistics, morality and ethics, law, history and so many other areas that are effected. Some wish to ignore the ripples of the water as they cast the stone upon the pond.

    While being a simple person… an average Joe (the hypothetical one that President Bush was trying to identify with in the last election) is commendable, it is not a really sound basis for defending a position though.

    On the surface, some ideas really do seem like a light bulb going off and then wondering why no one else saw how simple the solution was… such as a recent posting about raising the retirement age to 75 or 80.

    Okay… seems right. People are living longer… therefore, they take many more years out of the social security system than was originally intended. If they work longer, they will contribute more and take out less. Brilliant! Let’s do it!

    Stop! Wait. Let’s look here… Companies already have “issues” with older workers… they have been around so long that they are usually drawing top salary/wages for the job that they are doing. Maybe upto twice as much as the 30 year old next to them. Hmmmmm. That costs the company a lot of money…

    That 30 year old? He is waiting for the old guy to retire so he can take his place and advance. Increase retirement age… increase promotion waiting time..

    The old guy? After all that time… he might have his house paid off, kids through school and his expenses are getting a bit better in relation to his income…

    The young guy? Married… wife and a couple of kids he is worrying about putting through college on the salary/wages he is making because the old guy won’t leave. House payments, braces for the kids…

    Simple solutions lead to many problems… it isn’t the problems fault that the simple solution didn’t fix them.

    How many meals do you think President Bush missed that weren’t optional? He is not and average guy… he is part of the elite… but if you repeat it enough it becomes more… real?

    While judging each man based on his character, rather than the color of his skin is commendable and the goal we should strive for in our society… to deny that race plays a factor is to deny racism exists. Some wish to say that they are colorblind… but the fact remains that it exists… denying it doesn’t make it go away.

    Ron,
    Thanks so much for the tip on Google Toolbar spell checking!! I might sound intelligent now!! Nah…

    Posted by: Darren7160 at March 29, 2006 6:12 PM
    Comment #136737

    Treating Illegal immigrants as criminals is apparently going to hurt America more. Not only is it going to hurt America economically but in other yet unthought-of ways. Illegal immigrants are not costing the United States as much, in the other hand; they are mostly what make this country prosperous. America has always been a place of immigration and always will be. Maybe there is a solution to this but the law that is trying to be passed right now is not the correct one. It’s a dilemma that will not only hurt immigrants a great deal but also America. These people are not criminals or terrorists they are people who are adding a great deal of prosperity to the United States and should be treated with respect.

    Posted by: Tamara at March 29, 2006 6:38 PM
    Comment #136744

    Mike,
    “So where are we as a whole, as a “united” country, headed? Towards civil war and breakup - like Iraq with its competing ethnic and cultural groups?”

    I don’t want to take anything you say out of context, but this reminds me of the multicultural arguement that pops up every so often. It isn’t the multiple cultures that are the problem… it is the intolerance towards different cultures that is the problem. Look at the former Yugosolovia…

    Why can’t other be like us? Some in America don’t even really notice that they have a culture themselves… it is just the way the live… it has always been like that, feels right and everyone would feel the same way if they lived the same way. If there is something different… if someone does want to celebrate anything other than a traditional western-European culture or holyday it is viewed with suspicion.

    Most of the things we celebrate… heck, unless it is a Native American tradition… it has been immigrated and intergated into our society… though not always welcomed at first.

    Germans were considered a problem… Irish? Forget it. Italians? They were Catholics and would corrupt everything Christian about our nation and turn power over to the Pope. Know why the first Catholic schools were created in Boston? Because the protestants were trying to indoctrinate the Catholic children in the public schools… the bible was a primary text back then. Chinese? Japanese? Forget it.

    Would there be armed resistance? Possibly if the extremeists had their way. Would I be tempted to join in? Probably depending on what was happening. But, it would be in support of the immigrants.

    Why? Do I have no national pride? Do I not care about the legality of their being here? Our legal right to remove them? Where are my loyalities?

    In this case, depending on the circumstances… my loyalities would be to protect 11 million people from probably the worst forced migration in history. The Trail of Tears would pale in comparison. Moving people from New Orleans was almost more than we could bear… yet people say “ship them all out” as if it is a couple of people to the end of the block.

    My loyality to America and American’s is not based upon chance of birth location, but on what America stands for and by its actions. I would not support a government willingly sending millions of people to death, disease and untold misfortune…

    The logistics of moving 11 or 28 million people is beyond our capability of doing. Our companies could not deal with that loss of workers, apartment owners would lose everything as millions of housing units went vacant… whole neighborhoods and the supporting commercial businesses would wither and die… the countries receiving them would not be able to handle the influx… there would be massive homelessnes, starvation and disease… children dying by the hundreds at least… we think we have a problem with people resenting us now and wanting to do us harm… for the migration of millions and see what happens.

    Companies needing to replace the lost workers would scramble to hire people… the competition for workers would boost wages… which would get passed onto the consumer… which would force people to demand higher wages… inflation worse then the early 1980s would do us incredible harm.

    It isn’t just cutting grass or picking veggies… it isn’t paying a bit more for produce at the store like some want us to believe… it is much more complicated and vast.

    Why in Germany did no one speak out? Stop the madness? Because the victims had no legal rights… they were taken away by the Nuremberg laws… so offically, they had no legal status… and thus, no protections. As citizens or as human beings.

    What of the people in Germany and the occupied countries that hid Jews? They were violating the law… it was in the interests of the state… their national security to eliminate… er, deal… er, find a final solution to this problem.

    People may get upset with comparisons between NAZI Germany and America… but if the actions result in the same thing… what is the difference? It is okay because it is us? I don’t think so.

    If it is wrong to be an illegal alien.. would it not be more wrong to do an action, or create a situation that would cause unknown death and misery because of someone violating a law? Should all punishment for all crimes be the same? Or, do we believe that some deserve worse punishment?

    We justify an invasion of a foreign country on the basis of freeing these poor people… because we are such moral people.. but some would willingly send millions down the road with the clothes on their back and not bat an eye.

    Truthfully, what I hear is majority… we aren’t going to be the majority soon.. which helps deny the arguement that it isn’t racist.

    The reason the majority always fears the minority? Beause someday they might be the majority and treat us the way we treated them is my guess.

    If we are a nation of morality and just laws (not just laws, but laws based on just behavior towards all) then we have nothing to fear.

    Possibly it is all those racists projecting their feelings onto other that causes them fear… Projection is the placing of our fears or feelings onto another… thus, if we are racist we believe the others are… and we fear that they will act how we really want to… down there deep in our hearts where we don’t want anyone to see.

    So, in no way could I sit idly by and watch a calamity beyond belief happen and not do something.

    If the purpose is contemplation… then can the contemplation be widened to include the other things?

    We blame the politicans… yet they realize once that it is no longer rhetorical but real that it isn’t so easy… Himmler had no problem with gassing millions but turned green when he witnessed the actual killing of his victims with a gun.

    Allowing these people to be real… to be human beings makes it just a little bit harder, if the person has a conscience, than political grandstanding to get elected. It now becomes very very real.

    Posted by: Darren7160 at March 29, 2006 8:30 PM
    Comment #136745

    You can question my sanity, my judgment, my intelligence or my motives. But, sir, don’t ever, ever presume to question my loyalty to this nation or my patriotism. When I went to Vietnam to fight alongside my brothers and sisters, of all races, it wasn’t for the Democrats or Republicans or President Johnson or Nixon. I went because I believed the war was in the best interest of this country, that Communism had to be stopped wherever it threatened free people. And if your freedom or rights were threatened with being taken away, I would fight for you just as hard and I wouldn’t care what color you were or where your ancestors came from. As for racism in America, yes, it still exists. And as long as we look at each other as white, or black, or brown, or red men and women instead of just Americans, racism will continue to prosper. And I think even I am intelligent enough to realize that there are politicians and other prominent Americans of color, including Hispanics, who make a living off of promoting and fostering that racism.

    Posted by: Fatguy46 at March 29, 2006 8:35 PM
    Comment #136747

    “Give me your tired, your POOR, your huddled masses.” Lets just dig up our fore fathers and send them back to their respective motherlands.
    Most mexican people are really native americans with some spanish,French,and other mixed bloodlines. Besides with NAFTA and other programs like, outsourcing to china, our country will soon be just as poor as Mexico and no one will want to come here for work. 50,000 irish are also here illegaly.

    Posted by: Fillosofer2001 at March 29, 2006 9:06 PM
    Comment #136748

    Fatguy46
    Now you wouln’t be talking about dear old Je$$ie Jack$on would ya?

    I just don’t get it. Some crimes are acceptible and some crimes are not. And who is going to be the moral King to decide what crimes we can accept as wrong and which ones are right. For instance a female teacher committing statutory rape on a 14 year old male and walks. But, if that were a male teacher committing statutory rape on a 14 year old girl, then throw the book at ‘im judge. Or the illegal aliens are helping our economy so we should say come on over this is the price is right. Never mind that of 12 million illegals only 7 milliion are in the work force. They get paid under the table and pay no taxes but sure do reap the benefits as if they were a taxpayer. So if we turn our heads the crime will go away, huh? And, oh yah, those drive by shootings that we see in AZ, CA and elsewhere why does it get reported that “undocumented nationals” are so consistently involved. Crime does pay for some. And one other thing. Why does the person going through the proper channels to become a citizen of these United States learn English? Too many politicians and people out in society get their shorts twisted over how to fair to the invaders. Here is the answer. Send them home and charge Mr. Fox and the Mexican government 1 barrel of oil for each one returned. We could even negotiate a bonus plan so that after 500,000 returnees we get a 10% bonus. And you know after 12 million are returned we could get a small dent in the oil imported. One plan in the offering even now is that you don’t have to prove you are a registered voter. Wow, now there’s a block of votes. Dos Dems would sure show their ignorance on that voter reform. Say, Dickie Durbin could even start a rock band. Dickie Durbin and the Dumb Demos. Or Hairy Reid and the Hairless Rods. Hey I*’m starting to have fun.

    Posted by: tomh at March 29, 2006 9:08 PM
    Comment #136749

    Fatguy46,
    I do agree with you completely about the wonderful people in the military, those that are serving and those who have, like you and me that have served.

    I have mentioned numerous times throughout this blog that a service person is never asked if they wish to continue serving based upon a new President being elected… it is irrelevant. We serve because we want to serve America.

    That is one of the reasons I always object to people trying to proclaim themselves as the party of the military and the others not.

    Racism does still exist… the people who try to deny it hope that just by pretending it isn’t there it will go away… but it doesn’t. It becomes more sublime and more subtle… but it is there.

    As I mentioned before about respecting a person who speaks the truth versus people who distort… the southerners who were openly racist at least had the courage of their convictions and everyone knew where they stood.

    With my reply to Mike, all of his comments were related to race or ethnicity… of whites no longer being in the majority.

    I believe that many people wish something to be done… what I wish is that people could agree to work on a solution that doesn’t involve the original nationality, their language or skin color. With the legal issues, many can harbor racist motivations under the seemingly neutral stand of it being about the “illegal” aspect.

    That is why I continue to point out the history of immigration in America… the same things are said.. loss of majority status, loss of culture, loss of jobs, loss of this and that.

    If it is about a situation that needs to be dealt with then I believe that it should be. Calmly, cooly, rationally… but all I hear from a lot of people posting is hysteria, demagoguery and implied statistics showing how morally and legally corrupt these people are.

    What I wonder, and each person should want to as themselves… would they feel as adamant and hysterical of these people were German? British? Swedes? Oh sure… many would object to the numbers of people… but would they demand that they all be sent back regardless of the cost in human life and tragedy?

    While racism is real there will always be doubts to peoples motives. If some politicians of color or of Latino origin are exploiting this… we have a fine tradition of this in America. George Wallace, Strom Thrumond, David Duke and many other.

    It is unfortunate when honorable, well intentioned people get thrown in with the bottom of the barrel.

    If I in anyway implied you are a racist and that isn’t the case, then please accept my most heart felt apologies. I was in a class at the University where the liberal professor didn’t seem to believe that I was capable of having progressive, liberal thought. Why? Because I am a middle aged white male and a disabled vet. Even after 14 weeks she was still clueless… because she knew what she knew. But, she would never admit to “prejudging” people.

    None are so blind as a fanatic… on anything.

    Posted by: Darren7160 at March 29, 2006 9:14 PM
    Comment #136763

    When our economy tanks, Mexico’s will too.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 29, 2006 10:27 PM
    Comment #136785

    THIS IS A PROBLEM INDEED BUT IM 1 WHOM BLVS IT CAN BE DONE IN A HUMAIN WAY TEXAS USED TO BE PART OF MEXICO BUT REMEMBER THE ALAMO!REMEMBER PEARL HARBOR ? AND REMEMBER 9/11 MANY THINGS HAVE BROUGHT ABOUT CHANGE HERE IN THE GOOD OLE U.S.A. I DO BLEAVE THIS WHEN YOU ARE IN MY COUNTRIE YOU FALL UNDER MY COUNTRIES LAWS WHICH IS MORE FAIR THAN MOST OTHER COUNTRIES NOW THEY CAN EARN CITIZENSHIP BUT MUST PAY TAXES IN OUR COUNTRIE AND SOCIEL SECURITY AS WELL BUT IF YOU ARE A CRIMINAL DONT MESS WITH USA AND DO NOT COME HERE AND HURT OTHERS OR BREAK THE LAW IF YOU DO YOU CAN NEVER BE A CITIZN HERE AND CANT LEAVE WITH OUT DOIN YOUR TIME FOR THE CRIME AND THIS IS AMERICA WE HAVE THE STARS AND STRIPS ALTHOUGH WE ALLOW IT TO BE BURNED AND I SEEN NO MEXICAN FLAGS BEING BURNED JUST CARRIED BY KIDS WHOM HAVE NO PRIDE IN THE USA AND THINK THAT ITS OK TO FLY ANOTHER COUNTRIES FLAG OVER US SOIL MUCH LESS WAVING IT AROUND CALIFORNIA IS IN THE USA ARIZONA IS NEW MEXICO BUT ITS OUR SOIL OUR COUNTRIE LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT BUT WHILE YOU ARE HERE TAKIN OUR MONEY AND NOT PAYIN TAXES ETC FEEL FREE TO LEAVE AND DONT LET THE DOOR HIT YA ON THE WAY OUT!

    Posted by: F.A. STEPHENS at March 30, 2006 1:32 AM
    Comment #136792

    Max makes a very strong argument for the Specter bill. Maybe it will create more jobs (patrolling the border). However I see a few weak points in it.

    Namely, the 11 years it would take to become legal, is not really a penalty, when you consider how many years it already takes to become legal. I’ve been filing immigration papers for my husband for 5 years now, spent several thousand dollars in fees, and still cannot see anything like the end of it. Where’s the ‘penalty’ for circumventing the law, if you don’t fix the current system to be easier for those who work legally? I’d like to see some more people hired at the immigration offices.

    Also, even doubling the border patrol isn’t going to end the problem until we start to be more proactive about helping Mexico with its internal economy.

    I do appreciate Max’s understanding that this “problem” largely applies to GOOD people who are in this country for 1 reason: to send money home to support their families. All the illegals I’ve met are here for that reason anyway. Every Hispanic immigrant that I met was hard-working, dignified, and ethical. Yes for me it’s a racial issue: we need to HELP mexico. We help bring democracy to Afghanistan and Iraq(?), can we not help achieve better living conditions for our neighbor Mexico?

    I’ve also seen on TV the horrible conditions people endure, being freighted in by boat. If we are ultimately going to allow those same people to apply for legal status, doesn’t it seem like we could afford to somehow let them apply legally, and provide transport that is not torturous? Maybe… I mean I just can’t see deporting anyone after they’ve endured that.

    Squeaky

    Posted by: Squeaky at March 30, 2006 5:08 AM
    Comment #136797

    Immediate actions should be taken on all employers who hire these undocumented and illegal aliens who uses them for cheap labor and that is so Korean!Even if legislation passes with a guest worker program,those employers should be audited to the fullest because these guys are like the mafia.They are true Killers!

    Posted by: peter at March 30, 2006 6:17 AM
    Comment #136802

    I think it is time to comment on the whole Gangs of New York thing… I cannot believe that people don’t see that a microcosim of a corrupt and corrupting place was used as justification for discriminating against all Irish. People could point to it and say, “See, these people are not a part of America. They never will be. They are all criminals, gang members and killers.”

    Times have changed and the future belonged to the foreigners… the honorable (?) decision was to go down fighting.

    Somehow, these Irish became just as integral to America as anyone else. But that should be impossible!!!!! Evidence proves! See, look!!!

    Squeaky,
    Thank you for your perspective of the illegal immigrants you have met. I believe they are just like my experiences. That is because they are based on experience, not a tv show, a pundits article or the guy sitting next to me at a bar.

    Being a liberal… but also just earning my business degree, I sided with the Republicans on the NAFTA treaty… because I wanted to believe that by lifting trade barriers we would allow companies to send low skilled, high labor jobs to Mexico that would allow for the development of a middle class that would eventually increase trade with us. A sort of, win-win situation.

    However, I feel betrayed because of the need by companies to squeeze the last penny out of the worker and keep the prices the same to the consumer we are not seeing any benefits… nor are the Mexican people. Instead, we see CEO’s and shareholders skimming off the profits for their own greed.

    Conservatives like to mockingly ask why don’t we raise the minimum wage to $10, $20 or $30 any time the subject is broached? Their presumption is that a person should be paid what they are worth… not some arbitrary number. That to increase the minimum wage like that just means the companies will have to raise prices which leads to inflation.

    Liberals are not stupid. Especially since we are always accused of being too intellectual… We understand that companies need to make a profit, for from that profit comes our wages and salary. Shareholders need to earn a return from their investment… But, when it is asked how much is enough… why don’t they ask that of the CEO’s and executives making multi-millions from companies they didn’t even create? They are, after all, for the most part, glorified employees like those on the shipping docks.

    Republicans however see business as their personal little piggy bank. Interlocking boards, mutual setting of salary and perks…

    Things were slowly changing… but I fear they slid backwards. As the pension funds, especially state ones like CA’s CALPERS gained influence in the market because of their holdings they tried to make the companies responsible to the shareholders.

    It does not benefit the shareholders to have CEO’s pay themselves these millions of dollars… but there wasn’t a group holding a large enough block of shares to make a difference. Many of these salaries and bonuses were paid for poorly performing companies… with all sorts of rationals…

    We reward CEO’s that make companies successful. We need to reward CEO’s so they will work at a company when it is performing poorly. We need to reward CEO’s that drove companies into bankruptcy because it is a trying and difficult thing to go through (my personal favorite was that one for Kmart execs). Yet… these people are the ones that dismiss and mock PTSD or the stress of being poor. Heck, if they are poor, why not just get a job that pays better? Duh! We should have thought of that.

    There just never was a reason to not pay outrageous amounts.

    People should be demanding an accounting of where NAFTA is… why it is not performing like promised… insisting that something be done on the homefront as well as the source like we were told would be done.

    Were they wrong? If so, they need to fix it. Were they misleading us? If so, they need to be held accountable. Is it on track? Then explain that to us.

    They should talk to us before they get all hot and bothered and ready for CAFTA… ‘cause, we Americans are taking it in the neck… in prices, the markets that are developing like promised, loss of jobs and the continued pressure to come here… people think it is easy to pull up stakes, leave loved ones and come to a place they are despised… it isn’t.

    I don’t know what has happened, but it seems to be back to the old, “Greed is Good.” Profit is good, greed is just that… greed.

    Posted by: Darren7160 at March 30, 2006 7:28 AM
    Comment #136820

    Darren

    No offense taken. There’s an old Native American saying that you can call me any name you choose, but it’s the one I answer to that makes me who I am. FYI, I do not answer to “racist.”

    Everyone

    I’m afraid I’m out of my league here. You folks are too intelligent and insightful for a simple fellow like me. So ….

    Tan de largo y puede el dios estar con usted

    Posted by: Fatguy46 at March 30, 2006 10:41 AM
    Comment #136821


    CEO pay (another example of rampant greed) is another symptom of our demise.

    Most people, naturally, seek security and prosperity with the least amount of effort and pain, but some (cheaters) resort to unethical or illegal methods. A lack of Education creates an environment ripe for Corruption. A lack of Transparency creates opportunities for self gain. A lack of Accountability means there are no consequences. Hence, there is no Responsibility, and Power amplifies the problem.

    For decades now, we are being crushed under the weight of our own moral and fiscal irresponsibility.

    We sold ourselves out. America sold out a long time ago, and now, now we are merely witnessing the transfer of the assets of that sale now.

    When the deal is complete, like most corporate buy outs, people will start losing more than just their jobs.

    Why do we have to keep learning the hard way?

    Power corrupts when there is also insufficient Education, Transparency, and Accountability:

    Responsibility = Power + Education + Transparency + Accountability
    Corruption = Power - Education - Transparency - Accountability

    This is not intended to mere be malicious.
    It’s just the way things are when corruption has been allowed to grow too far out of control.
    Most any of us would succumb to the corruption and tempations.
    That is why it is so important for all of us to understand the simple formula above.

    Unless voters wake up and do their part, they will suffer the consequences of their own neglect, because corruption always grows worse, until there is sufficient Transparency and Accountability to discourage it.
    Sadly, voters will probably wait until reforms are harder and more painful.
    Sadly, voters have to keep learning the hard way, which is why some politicians have such a disdain for voters, and joke that voters get what they deserve. Sadly, it is sort of true.

    The balance of Power is fragile.
    The voters have forgotten their duty, and allowed an imbalance to grow. The longer corruption is allowed to grow, the longer and more painful it will be to return to a balance of power (if ever).

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 30, 2006 10:45 AM
    Comment #136839

    ITS TRULY A VERY SCARY ITEM THIS MESS WE HAVE ON HAND!WE HAVE A TOTAL BREAK DOWN ON LAWS RULES AND HUMANITY HERE! THE PREIDENT IS FIGHTING A WAR ON TERROR FOR WHICH WE HAVE HAD NO MORE ATTACKS ON THE MAINLAND USA SENCE 9/11 BUT ITS AN ELECTION YEAR AND YOU HAVE BOTH PARTIES PLAYIN THERE FAVORITE ROLLS LIKE A PLAY SEE EVERYBODY WANTS TO JUMP THE PREZ BUT ITS THE CONGRESS AND SENATE WHOM TRULY HAVE THE POWER AND THEY BOTH ABUSE THAT POWER AND LOOK AT THERE INCOME WE SHOULD IN FACT DO WHAT WE DEMAND OF IRAQ AND OTHERS TAKE THESE MEN AND WEMEN LOCKEM IN THERE BUILDINGS AND SAY HAY YOU WANT TO GO HOME AND TAKE CARE OF YOUR FAMILES THEN YOU STAY HERE TILL YOUVE DONE WHAT YOU WERE ELECTIDE TO DO PROTECT AND SERVE MY FAMILY ETC! NOT ALL THINGS WOULD GET FIXED TO EVERYONES TOTAL SATISFACTION BUT MUCH MORE WOULD GET DONE PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT TO KNOW 1ST AMENDMENT BUT WITH THE MEDIA ARE YOU GETN FACTS OR THERE OPINION OF THE FACTS ITS LIKE YOU GO TO CHURCH AND THE PRIEST OR PREACHER OR RABI OR THE EMOMOMS TELL YOU WHAT THE BOOKS SAY TO THEM BUT NEGLECT TO SAY HOW YOU AS AN INDIVIDUAL UNDERSTANDS WHATS WRITEN WITH YOUR OWN INTERPITATIONS OF SAID BOOKS RESPECT LIKE BEHAVIOR IS EARNED AND LEARNED.

    Posted by: F.A. STEPHENS at March 30, 2006 11:37 AM
    Comment #136846

    OK, I’ve had enough of the lunacy here. I’m just going to swat away a few of the more asinine points that some have made here.

    It appears that there are very few conservatives posting. Is this some sort of NEOCON convention?

    Judging by the millions marching in the streets of the United States to oppose criminalizing illegal immigration, it is inconceivable to believe that there would not be resistance, possibly armed, in the process of deporting all illegal immigrants from the United States.
    How, exactly, do you suggest we deport 11 million people.
    It would not take deportation. It would only take enforcement at the employer level that includes some high-level-executive “perp-walks” to stop many of the illegal alien facilitators to clean up their acts. Through a well-planned ratcheting up of enforcement in the workplace, voluntary self-deportation could easily be made a manageable process.

    Historically, about 1/3 of all immigrants to the US left before Teddy Kennedy sold us that God-Awful Hart-Cellar reform bill in 1965. Assimilationist attitudes and policies made sure of that. Tolerance has not been an historical value in this nation, especially when it comes to immigrants. I think Teddy has some sort of complex that makes him seek revenge against those long-dead Americans who discriminated against his Irish Ancestors.

    It is truly tragic that the multicult and political correctness enforcers have numbed too many minds…

    We can’t stop dirty bomb materials from comming over our borders, do you really think we’re going to be able to find 11 million (its supposedly 12 million now, since the stat was for 05) people who have been here as long as they have?
    Last year, Bear Stearns Investments did a study that indicated that, based on economic data, the illegal alien population has to be at least 20 million. They have more at stake regarding accuracy that the Feds, who would necessarily need to understate the numbers in order to look less incompetent.
    The Constitution says the state shall not establish religion.
    The First Amendment to the Constitution actually says “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…” It serves the left well that there are so many Americans misinformed.
    It will be cheaper to fly every one of the illegals home than it will be to build a wall.
    Nonsense. The wall is a one-time expense. Add to it enforcement at the employer level that includes some high-level-executive “perp-walks” to stop many of the illegal alien facilitators to clean up their acts. Through a well-planned ratcheting up of enforcement in the workplace, voluntary self-deportation could easily be made a manageable and cost-effective process.
    Hey, wait a minute. That would also keep in anyone who wants to leave…
    One word: Catapult
    As I have mentioned numerous times… the arguements weave throughout America’s immigration “reform” movement. If these people do become “legal” that will not stop the dislike of these people. It will become, “They weren’t here legally!”
    Do you think for one moment that if we allow 20 million (Bear Stearns is more reliable than government) newcomers with language barriers and large diasporas (look up the word if you don’t understand it) to actually vote that there will not be a permanent split in this nation along ethnic lines? How do you think that the descendants of America’s Anglo-Saxon Founders and other Europeans will react once they become less than the majority? Doesn’t it concern you that they’ll remain straddled with being reverse-discriminated against by nonsensical “affirmative action” policies that will apply to ONLY the new and the old hyphenated Americans? Do you not see the danger? You can rest assured that the number of white males like me who will embrace ethnic separatist agendas will skyrocket. You fear violence from illegal aliens? You ain’t seen nothin yet, bubba.
    This entire immigration “scandal” would be hardly a mention if the federal government (specifically the Executive branch which under our Constitution is mandated to enforce our federal laws) would enforce the already-on-the-books against all and every and each employer who hires illegal workers…no jobs, very little border crossing…but the so-called “chief” executive has chosen NOT to enforce the law of the land (what about the “rule of law” thing he kept mentioning during the 2000 campaign…guess that was just a slogan, huh?) to satisfy his crony corporation heads’ lust for illegal and immoral profit…not a care as to what his failure to enforce the law has done to the common worker…as usual.
    Absolutely right on!
    That isn’t true. The bill, approved by the Senate Judiciary Committee in a 12-to-6 vote on Monday, is one the country should be proud of. Four Republicans, including the committee’s chairman, Arlen Specter, joined eight Democrats in endorsing a balanced approach to immigration reform. The bill does not ignore security and border enforcement. It would nearly double the number of Border Patrol agents, add resources for detaining illegal immigrants and deporting them more quickly, and expand state and local enforcement of immigration laws. It would create a system to verify workers’ identities and impose tougher punishments on employers who defied it.
    What makes you think that our government has the capacity to manage such a program? It defies the imagination. Double the number of border patrol agents???!!! There are 38,000 New York City Police Officers and 11,000 Border Patrol Agents today. Does the inequity compute for you at all? QUINTUPLE the size and it would still be inadequate. You’ve fallen for a bunch of meaningless platitudes…
    What will happen if we lose 11 million consumers?
    What will happen if we reduce the number of uninsured by 20 million? Reduce overcrowded classrooms by 5 million? Eliminate the need for ESOL classes?

    What ever happened to American Ingenuity? Japan doesn’t allow in ANY immigrants and has mechanized many of the “jobs that Japanese won’t do.” We’ve got little robots running around on Mars, but we “depend” on imported cheap labor? Give me a break.

    The members of the US Chamber of Commerce, now apparently an adjunct of the UN, need to be put on a 12-step program for their addiction. Merely BEGINNING the process of arresting those who employ illegal aliens would swell the ranks of CheapLaboraholics Anonymous.

    There are clearly humane, pratical, and legal issues involved.
    When does it start being “humane” to the people who stay in nations like Mexico when the very folks who would best be able to change THAT nation are protesting here? And when are we allowed to worry about whether or not the invasion is HUMANE to our children and their futures?
    Immigration was at one of its lowest levels during the Great Depression of 1929.
    That was due to the immigration acts of 1921 and 1924. Historically it has been the PAUSES in the immigration flow that have united us and facilitated assimilation. If immigration had ever been the continuous one-way flow as it is today, we’d have never made it this far as a nation. I dare anyone to attempt a refutation of that.

    People who let compassion get in the way of historical reality really piss me off.

    Illegal immigrants are not costing the United States as much, in the other hand; they are mostly what make this country prosperous.
    What a load of…


    Posted by: KDaddy at March 30, 2006 11:56 AM
    Comment #136847

    THERE A LOT OF PEOPLE MUCH LIKE ANIMALS THEY SNARL GROWL AND OFTEN BIT THE HAND THAT FEEDS THEM! LIKE A PITBULL DOG YOU PUT HIS/HER FEED DISH DOWN DO NOT STICK YOUR HAND DOWN THERE AND TRY TO TAKE IT.ALTHO IF HE BITES ME HES DEAD AND ID BE STUPID FOR KILLING HIM CAUSE IM THE ONE THAT PUT MY HAND THERE KNOWING BETTER TO BEGAIN WITH AND KILLING MY DOG DUE TO MY OWN STUPIDITY THATS THE WAY THIS BORDER DEAL IS AND IT GOES MUCH FUTHER THAN THE BORDERS?WHOM IS AT FALT WE ARE! SO WE FIX IT OR CONTINUE TO SUFFER FROM IT. AND IF YOU I MEAN YOU BUILD IT THEY WILL COME MORE AND MORE WHY YOU SAY BECAUSE ITS THERE AND THE POWERS TO BE SAY YOU CANT HAVE IT

    Posted by: F A STEPHENS at March 30, 2006 12:02 PM
    Comment #136883

    WHAT?!?

    Posted by: Bill M. at March 30, 2006 1:46 PM
    Comment #136890

    Could we perhaps turn off the caps lock and lower the dosage of medication?

    Posted by: KDaddy at March 30, 2006 2:00 PM
    Comment #136891

    Kdaddy,
    Japan is an interesting choice. So many of the things talked about are illustrated perfectly… shall we start with historical revisionism… many in Japan are responding to the nationalists that want to remove the true history of Japans aggression. Ouch!

    Japan has always been xenophobic… their history does not, to me at least, speak glowingly of their behavior towards those they believe to be inferior. This includes the Chinese, the Koreans and the American soldiers on the Bataan Death March.

    Their mechanization is good… however, it wasn’t done over night. I have worked on automated production lines and have done a little setting up of the lines. They do not appear over night and they are very complex. But, I guess we just snap our fingers and there will be enough machines of the types needed with the people skilled to program them. If not, well, maybe we can get some from India here on a work visa.

    It is presumed that there are 20 million uninsured. Okay, let’s go with that. Are each and every driver choosing to not be insured or are they unable to purchase insurance because of legal status? If given any sort of legal status do you think that all 20 million would chose to not be insured?

    20 million cars? 20 million auto registrations and fees? 80 million tires?

    Okay, to be fair, 20 million probably isn’t all adults… they don’t all have cars, there can be some single car families… but the numbers are still large!

    Now, someone probably has numbers out there somewhere about how bad these people are as drivers… seems they can’t do ANYTHING right. What percentage of drivers do you want to have accidents? 10%? 20% 50% Your choice….

    20 million consumers. Neighborhoods abandoned, commercial centers emptied… apartment buildings foreclosed… homes sitting empty.

    I believe that d.a.n. has already pegged the cost of illegals as $1.6 billion dollars a year. I do not know if that is above and beyond what they spend as consumers… I believe he calculated it out as 11 million so I figured $145 dollars a year each illegal is costing us…. You say 20 million people which makes the actual cost lower. That is, unless you have a source that you trust which has a different cost.

    Humane to our future and our children’s? Very good question… now… as has been noted on here by some, the birth rate for the illegals is greater than that of White Americans…

    We are proposing social security reform because of the top heavy nature of our aging country… we have heard that there are not enough young working to support the people retiring. Some have suggested raising the age limit of retirement as a solution which I don’t think is the best idea, but my views on that are posted somewhere on this board.

    Imagine 20 million workers that are already here, already employed or wanting to be employed.. paying into social security! Problem isn’t solved… but it helps.

    5 million students? Okay… presuming that they are all in segregated schools… then the schools would close. If they weren’t, then because of the loss of money the school gets for each student, you would see a disruption of their education (i.e., White, western European descended American citizens), so that would need to be considered too.

    From what I gathered, you aren’t proposing moving these people… just cutting off all access to any type of work. Wow, it that a really neat morally neutral way to deal in genocide… that is so original. Ooopps. Wait. No it isn’t… Nuremberg Laws. Sorry, someone already had that thought of before you. They too prided themselves on obedience to the law… regardless of the morality of the law.

    And people wonder why the Conservatives are so often compared to the Nazis? Is it because we point out the similarities… or because of the similarities. Talk about ignoring history?

    “You can rest assured that the number of white males like me who will embrace ethnic separatist agendas will skyrocket. You fear violence from illegal aliens? You ain’t seen nothin yet, bubba.”

    I really wasn’t able to determine the source… it seemed as if you were pasting someone’s arguement and then commenting.. were those your words? Enthic separtist?

    Thank you for illustrating the point that it isn’t multiculturalism that is the problem. It is narrow minded, fear driven bigots that are the problem.

    Let’s do one more playing with numbers. Whites are becoming the minority… white males are 1/2 of that majority. Let’s say 3/4ths are over 18… but let’s say that only about 50% or so of the white males over the age of 18 feel that way… maybe 80% feel strongly enough to take up arms?

    That is not a very signifigant number of people overall when you are talking about starting a race war… I would predict that whoever proposed it would get their butts handed to them.

    The police, feds and the military are fully intergrated and they won’t take white racists Bubbas running around with guns lightly. Some whites in the police or military might be standing next to a person not-white that has saved their life… Some might even take a bit of pleasure at “capping” a few men finally brave enough to remove their white hood.

    I, for one, would love to see the people under those hoods enter the light of day and have the guts to proclaim their beliefs. But, they are cowards so that will never happen. Any white man that thinks the others will rise up with him doesn’t understand the nature of those he is affiliated with. They are cowards that creep in the night and hide under hoods. Not willing to stand upon their convictions and face the fact that they will not be applauded, but actually shunned by all others.

    So, if the idea of a bunch of overweight Bubbas running around getting their butts shot off fails to impress me… I hope you can understand. YAWN.

    People who really knock my socks off are ones with incredible courage.. unlike a Bubba will ever understand. They are often shunned, challenge people of incredible power… stand upon a principle and face the consequences… Hooded overweight middle aged men posturing for each other as they drink their beer on a weekend retreat will never be able to do that.

    One last thing. Perhaps I just don’t “get” it. I don’t see the differnce you were pointing out concerning the First Amendment and the way it is popularly paraphrased. If it is state, well, the United States is considered a nation State. If it is Congress… well, since they are the ones making the laws then it just goes without saying (unless it is the President Bush’s interpreation of making law by interpreting the law to mean what he wants it to mean.)

    Posted by: Darren7160 at March 30, 2006 2:02 PM
    Comment #136893

    >>Darren7160,
    You are right.
    There’s is no way to remove the illegal aliens here already.
    But, what we must do now is secure the borders, and put and end to the in-flow.
    Otherwise, we will all be losers.
    The cost is serious. Hospitals, healthcare, property taxes, and increased crime rates can not be allowed to get any worse.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 29, 2006 10:37 AM

    d.a.n.,

    You might be right, but if there are 11 to 20 million illegals here, and the government were to just enforce the laws against hiring them, how many would return to their homelands voluntarily? After that we might be able to handle sending most of the remainder back. I’ve rarely blaimed those seeking work for coming here. I hold the niggardly pricks who are willing to sell their souls for the measly dollars that cheap labor bestows upon them. We don’t have to jail or deport millions of illegals, just several hundred thousand business jerks we can do without anyway.

    Mexico and other southern nations have many natural resources. Some of the folks who have been here should have learned how to exploit those resources by now. They can become the entrepreneurs of Latin America.

    Posted by: Marysdude at March 30, 2006 2:06 PM
    Comment #136916

    Marysdude,
    Absolutely. Good points.
    And, Mexico is not as poor as many other nations.

    If we let things go this way much longer, we’ll know how the American Indian must have felt.

    Posted by: d.a.n at March 30, 2006 3:32 PM
    Comment #137047

    Because some one has a slightly diferent point of view dont mean they are on medications.it means perhaps that you simply dont get the point! You might consider that we as americans have for so long ignored this problem is now the cheif cause of the problem!The sheer number of imagrnts was if were suddenly deported our econime would face sheer parel FACT!This is a defenant problem to solve but canot be fixed overnight! If this countrie falls it will be from with in not without!We would be faced with legaly born american born here to ileagal parents like tell a young person why your taking mom and dad away.Or do you take what little mom and pop have so that they have to fall back on our wefare system or deport mom and pop and put the children in the welfare system.Comon sense says plug the hole in the wall before you paint it cut down on the inflo and deal whats already seaped thru the cracks we must stem the flo in and not be as hastey with the outflo.New methods are needed on the borders of this countrie.We allow people to come here and thy actualy are more patrotic than our kids etc you dont see them burning there flags.But here its freedoom of speach there civil right to burn our flag and dishonor our veterans.BOYS MARRIE BOYS HERE AND GIRLS MARRY EACH OTHER.

    Posted by: ALLEN STEPHENS at March 31, 2006 5:06 AM
    Comment #137050

    Allen,
    I agree that the medication thing was a bit over the top. I questioned someones attempt to characterize a Senator’s taking some kind of pill on tv as his being a “Valium popper”.

    Sadly, I was told that he was just taking his cue from the Liberals… which, if it is true means that it is now acceptable to do bad behavior because someone else is. I kind thought that my morality and integrity depended on what I did, not on justifying my actions on the premise that everyone else did it too.

    I was also told “If I can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.”

    It isn’t the heat of the cooking, which is a normal expectation if you want to cook. It is the heat from inflammatory rhetoric which does not add to the discussion.

    Sigh.

    As to burning the American flag… while I would never do it and I would not associate with anyone that has done it… I do defend it.

    Why? Because, the flag is a symbol of something that cannot be burned. Who we are is not rallied around a flag but the ideals behind it.

    Popular speech does not require much protection. Unpopular speech does. I cannot think of too many things that are more unpopular than burning a flag… thus requiring the protection.

    We teach our children that bad behavior if not rewarded will eventually stop. Name calling, teasing… those types of things. If there isn’t a reaction, then we don’t give away our power to the other person. Same with the flag burning. They cannot change who we are or what we believe by doing it. They will get tired of the game and move on… and we will still be believing in our ideals and secure in the knowledge that the person had the ability to speak his unpopular speech.

    Posted by: Darren7160 at March 31, 2006 5:30 AM
    Comment #137053

    Darren,

    The bulk of flag burnings occured during Nam. There has been some since then, but burning the flag has flagged, so to speak.

    I was in Nam, and to be quite frank with you, I thought at the time, in my patriotic dreams, that I was there to protect the rights of those who were protesting the war by burning the flag. I did not find out different until the eighties, when most of the noise about a Constitutional amendment was so loud.

    I thought at the time…why in hell did I spend so much time and pieces of my body on a country that doesn’t want to allow descent. It did not make sense then and it does not make sense now.

    And, to make it even more complex, the folks who want flag burning to stop use words, to me that indicate worship. Worship of a symbol or idol is against the ‘tablet ten’, yet those most vocal and reverent about the flag are fundamentalists…go figure…

    Posted by: Marysdude at March 31, 2006 7:32 AM
    Comment #137057

    Thanks Marysdude!!
    I entered the serivice in 1977 so I was very fortunate to have missed the Vietnam war. I know that there were many who opposed the war but not the soldier (like myself… and I did join so obviously it wasn’t about the soldier). Some opposed both and I do not excuse their behavior.

    I so agree with the fundamentalists… they say “Idoltry” with their emphasized souther accent… pointing the finger at everyone else. Very good point.

    I haven’t had the opportunity to tell you that I agree also that it is too late to deport “these people”.

    While much is made of the “social” costs of illegals… not much is made of the potential benefits if there is a legal means for them to participate economically.

    We can, however, do somthing to allow them to be productive members of our society. That means that regardles of how they got here… because they will be a part of our future (unless we commit mass murder) we need:

    1) A legal ability to work.
    2) Legal driver’s license.
    3) Legal right to buy car insurance (Imagine the market for Progressive, GEICO, etc.)
    4) Legal right to purchase health insurace (imagine the market for the HMOs.)
    5) Reduce crime attributed to the inability to function as a human being in our society.
    6) Increase tax revenue by cutting out the people paying them “under the table.”

    I am going to present a “Starting Point” and see what it brings out in discussion…

    Thanks for being there so so many didn’t have to be.

    Posted by: Darren7160 at March 31, 2006 7:49 AM
    Comment #137063

    Strating Point for discussion:

    I agree that something must be done. It cannot be denied by a reasonable person that an attempt to move 11 or 20 million people is impossible without tremendous loss of life.. the likes no one has seen before.

    There can be benefits to our society from the illegal aliens already here. See above for a few.

    Therefore, I want to propose a couple of suggestions and use this as an opportunity to discuss the issues, possible solutions and see of there is any agreement out there at all.

    1. Amnesty Permenant Resident Alien: In order to not reward people who did enter illegally, a new subclassification can be made. This will be a permenant resident alien status that gives the person the right to work while never having the right to vote. Only legal immigrants going through the proper channels for citizenship will have this right.

    Other limitations may be considered, but I am looking for ones that do not end up hurting us in the long run… such as denial of access to immunizations or K-12 education.

    2. Employers: Now we come down hard on employers. Many American’s have opposed national identity papers (myself being one of them, but I will concede this for discussion), but if we are going to have a means to determine the “right to work” it has to be universal… not just based upon looks or last names.

    Possibly a total percentage of workers with this status allowed per employer… this might help with the “they are taking all our jobs” argument. However, there might need to be a way that companies can prove a “good faith effort” and were unable to find enough Americans to fill the positions.

    3. Securing our border: Definitely. I do not like the idea of a fence though. It brings up too many images and is not something I want to live behind. I believe that, like sheltered communities, it is surrendering to fear. Enforcing the laws for guiding them across the border… working with the Mexican government as equals concerng a serious problem. Law enforcement, intelligence, technology, facilities to humanely deal with detainees until they can be returned… not just a citation and a date to return.

    4. Revisit NAFTA: Make the companies that have moved production to Mexico and the American government answer to the people why the benefits of NAFTA are not being seen? They are responsible to us, they told us certain thins would result from NAFTA and they should update us or explain what isn’t working and what is being done to fix it.

    5. Education: It is not in the interests of America to have uneducated people, for any reason. The level of a person’s education is a major predictor of crime, drug use, poverty, prison incarceration, social welfare costs. Education of all children means a higher skilled workforce for America’s future.

    This does not include higher education. If a person with this status wishes to avail themselves of the educational opportunity, they will be chosen after all qualified citizens and legal immigrants have been offered admission. Full tuition will be paid with no grants or government backed student loans. Any bank or philothranpic organization that wishes to help finance the education is fine.

    6. Health Care: Preventative health care reduces costs and also protects the public. Immunizations are important for all people. They cannot be made optional based upon the legal status of a person. Infectous diseases do not check legal papers. Absolutely no “optional” heath care. Wellness or actual illness impairing a persons health and ability to function should be treated, but no others.

    I really do welcome comments. Please though… even though it didn’t take a lot of time and effort, I hope that people will respect a willingness here to create a chance to discuss reasonably and rationally… not just label and point fingers.

    Posted by: Darren7160 at March 31, 2006 8:24 AM
    Comment #137079

    Darren,

    In order for me to start a new job I had to provide evidence of my elegibility to work in the US. It’s already a law.
    1) Permanent residents are here legally already. Amnesty from what?
    2) The problem is businesses have no incentive to follow that law. Look at WalMart’s knowing use of illegal immigrant labor to clean their stores. It saved them millions of dollars and saved their customers a nickel each on the cheap China crap you can buy there. Why should they follow the law if it won’t cost them much more to break it than to follow it.
    3) Enforcement is weaker and more expensive than removing the cause. See (2), no jobs for illegals means no illegals
    4)Explain what? If they follow the law they only answer to shareholders.
    5) Are you saying if you’re a legal immigrant the taxpayer will pay all your tuition?
    6) Pay as you go is the way to go. Exceptions for minors and life threatening circumstances only.

    Posted by: Dave at March 31, 2006 10:06 AM
    Comment #137099

    Dave,
    Really, I was hoping for suggestions… ideas… something other than rhetoric.

    1) Amnesty for the ones already here. I will not condone the force movement of 11 million to 20 million people… the consequences would be too much for me to accept. If there is a way to move this vast amount of people without inflicting death, disease and famine (the punishment fitting the crime is an American tradition… also no unreasonable punishment, I submit forced migration without a way to prevent disaster is unreasonable), then I would like to hear it. That is what I am asking for… a discussion of reality based solutions… not rhetoric.

    Denying the difficulty or consequences of something this massive does not make it less real.

    People don’t want to discuss the nuts and bolts of this situation. They want to believe that a seemingly morally neutral stand of, “these people are illegal” will absolve them of all responsibility of what happens.
    1a) Hitler killed millions through legal direct action… and we rightly condemn him.
    1b) Through our inaction, if we allow 11 to 20 million people on a forced migration, are we any less culpable? Legally? Possibly. Morally?
    1c) If, through a legal and law enforcement means we remove all avenues of 11 to 20 million people to survive other than trying to trek back home, are we less culpable? True, we didn’t put a gun to their head and march them.

    2) The subclause of the definition of the person would be “AMNESTY PERMANENT RESIDENT ALIEN” which would differntiate them from legal ones. Thus, never able to attain full citizenship, where as the others could.

    3) Good point. Punishment should fit the crime. People cannot seem to differentiate the crime from the person. People make it sound as if the illegal aliens are choosing to not have a license or insurance… that is not necessairly the case. Yes, they broke the law, does that mean they have absolutely no regard for the law? If you jaywalk, speed or fail to use a turn signal I guess you are a drug addict, driving under the influence and probably on your way to rob a bank. The cop should just arrest you and charge you for those crimes.

    Sometimes it is the laws that make people lawbreakers.

    3) Enforcement is cheaper than what problem? If we take the numbers of 11 million people costing $1.6 billion, that is $145 per person… if we go with the 20 million the cost is even less. There is no way anyone can convince me that illegal aliens do not contribute more than $145 per year to our economy. Heck, they might pay that at McDonalds alone if they are like a lot of Americans.

    This really is just a rehash of the arguments for and against. It does little towards finding solutions… other than: MARCH ‘EM TO THE BORDER. Comlicity in mass murder, through direct action or inaction, regardless of the “legal” nature of their status is not something I will face my Maker with.

    4) Again the law. This presumes that all laws are written correctly. Remember, NAFTA was sold to us by the politicans with specific expectations. Are we going to do a historical revision and say that it wasn’t?

    Let’s not lose credibility for the sake of trying to score a point… it scores a point but loses the argument.

    Laws, such as NAFTA, FISA or immigration or some other issue should not be reviewed to see if they are working?

    What in God’s name made me think that a Republican would willingly want to look at an economic theory and dispassionately evaluate whether or not it was performing the way it was intended? Because, in the world of the Republicans, the only Theories (unlike Darwin’s) that don’t require “proof” are economic ones.

    Come on… people accuse us of being “intellectual” and I am starting to see why. It sounds good that all these things will happen… we will tell people that if this NAFTA treaty is signed everyone will benefit from it because of a, b, c… yet to look and see if it is doing what it was intended? Never. We cannot question our leaders… Go against dogma. Geeeeez.

    Some things in politics are considered the “third rail” meaning it will kill you politically to touch it. I guess that the dogma of NAFTA is included? How dare people question whether it is working. No one knows if it is… because it is the “third rail” now, huh?

    So, we can say that companies are obeying the letter of the law… but the intent? That which it was sold to us? I did include money being fungible I believe? Like with tax breaks, the companies eventually will do what they want with the money they get. They sell it to us as creating new jobs, but they get the money, underfund a part of their organization, put the “tax break” there and use the money that used to be funding the operation wherever they want… net resuluts to us, the taxpayer? For anyone still not clear on the fungible nature of money, read up on Congressman DeLay’s problems. A classic example of skirting the letter of the law, using the money against the intent of the law.

    Yes, we are above all, a nation respecting of the law… aren’t we. ENRON, Global Crossing, Jimmy Swaggert (possibly the recepient of more oral sex than President Clinton, but President Clinton never danced around as the epitome of moral virtue). Or, unless it might be the Congressmen of our party taking bribes, someone in the administration deciding to “out” a CIA covert agent? Don’t you think it should be up to the CIA to determine whether or not the person “needed” the covert status? Yhe President possibly violating the FISA courts… some don’t even want the possibility to investigate it because that would be partisan and aiding the enemy. Not to mention really swamping their boat in the next election (could that be the real reason?)

    Why do republicans get so upset at the tax payers… the 80% of the population down here wanting our tax money to be responsibly used. They believe, contrary to continual evidence that giving our money to corporations is a good thing?

    I wasn’t a Republican in the 1970’s but I respected them for their principled stand against the allegations of their President violating the law. Those were true Republicans and Statesmen dedicated to America… before Jerry Farwell and his the Moral Majority, Newt Gingrich, Oral Roberts, Pat Robertson and all the others turned it into a 3 ring circus.

    No, the law was broke but we didn’t shoot him. Again, punishment, directly or as a consequence should fit the crime.

    Am I happy with having to defend people who violated the law? Nope. Absolutely not. It makes me hurt inside to do it… but that hurt does not compare to the pain I will feel if I am complicit in any way with what would happen if we move so may people in such a short time.

    Can a republican be happy with supporting a President who possibly violted the law? Sure. They are so happy they don’t want to even contemplate an investigation. After all, a person is innocent until proven guilty. If we obstruct the investigation, then he can never be judged.

    I am just a little tired of the high minded “law” abiding (selectively) rhetoric.

    I will admit the illegals are breaking the law.. I will submit that the solutions give so far may not be a proper “punishment.”

    5) I guess not. My mistake, but I was hoping for a bit of honest, well thought out responses… instead… it is finding a sentence to object to and to ignore the context and the intent. Oh well.

    6) We agreed on something. That is a start.

    See, the rhetoric. Nothing closer except of my ceeding the student loan thingy… which as you rightly pointed out was a mistake on my part. Boy, that was fun.

    Please people… if you want to discuss the, “By God, they are illegal and I don’t need to know or discuss anything more than that!” then please don’t reply to this message.

    I want suggestions… not a rehash of the same thing that is on this blog and the ones just like it.

    I am looking for concrete suggestions… reasonable ones… ones you won’t want to deny later or accuse me of distorting to my students 10 years down the road when we cover this era and issue. Please.

    So far, we have my suggestions as a start of discussion… and we have march ‘em to the border and damn the consequences… not much of a start.

    Posted by: Darren7160 at March 31, 2006 11:46 AM
    Comment #137111

    Thanx for the resonal debait.As for the flag burning that i mentioned was ment to be an example of intolerance to debait freedom of speach was not my intent.it was rather the thought of american kids rioting and wraping another contries flag around themselves thats there right to do just that. but again those actions do not solve a problem! we must slow the flow in in order to fix the already outof hand problems inside. we must stop the drug lords to stop the posioning of all those already here those sertain criminals have overun larado texas we 11million here already why not slow that inward flow to fix the other bad problem that comes with it.deport the criminals asap if and when caught and define the differance between an ileagle imagrent and an ilegale murderer or theif yes the act of them coming here is ilelegal but none violent.

    Posted by: allen stephens at March 31, 2006 12:22 PM
    Comment #137137

    Allen,
    I like the idea of working on the problems… Yes!

    Another consideration could possibly by along with the Amnesty Permenant Resident Alien status could be an immediate loss of that status and deportation upon conviction of a felony. Possibly done instead of prison or deported after serviing depending on the severity of the crime.

    I agree that we need to do something about the people coming… that is why I believe sufficient facilities and enforcement officals to deal effecively with each one that we find. Not letting them go with a citation and an agreement to come back later to be deported.

    Let’s use technology and manpower to stop to influx. Let’s deal with the countries that they come from and see what can be done to make them succesful societies that people won’t feel the need to leave… where they can become real trading partners and just spheres of influence and subject markets for our cheap labor or American goods.

    NAFTA and now CAFTA are supposed to do this. Let’s see if it is living up to the promise. If not, what can be done to make them better.

    Posted by: Darren7160 at March 31, 2006 1:46 PM
    Comment #137148

    Darren,

    I have one simple solution to all this. Penalize the employers beyond their benefit of having low wage illegal labor. for your questions, I wasn’t being rhetorical, just brief.

    1) I wasn’t clear on what you’re proposing. But I don’t agree on a mass amnesty. It’s been tried before and doesn’t work going forward. The insentives for people to be here illegally must be eliminated. And that incentive is jobs. If people can’t get jobs, they will go back home of their own volition.
    2) I’m willing to accept the temporary peturbations caused by suddenly having several million new job postings open rather than legalize those here illegally.
    3) Trying to stop people getting in hasn’t been effective and billions more won’t do the job any better. Remove the incentive to come here, they will stop coming and there will be no need to spend the billions.
    4) Maybe I just didn’t understand who you were expecting the explanation from. If you mean the gov’t, then I agree. The gov’t needs to be accountable for ALL of its actions. Companies only respond to shareholders and profits.
    5)Again, I really don’t know what you’re proposing.
    6)

    Posted by: Dave at March 31, 2006 2:44 PM
    Comment #137150

    Its nice to understand indeed amnastey will not work though.But a closed mind to the problem dosnt work as well.We cannot reward illeagl actions. But we can control the extent to which we as a people will allow sertain actions to continue.these people need ids and they need to pay there taxs on moneys made here.And make it understood that cyotas will be shot on site and drug lords if caught will be put to death the same sentence they give there own countrymenthere is nothing against an inocent family try to live and prosper a person guilty of caring for his family is 1 item but drugs and gangs we dont need more as we have plenty already here. LETS FOCUS ON HELPING AND FIXIN THE PEOPLE THAT ARE HERE NOW AND FOCUS EQUALY ON SLOWING THE INFLUX OF THE BAD

    Posted by: allen stephens at March 31, 2006 3:01 PM
    Comment #137153

    Whoa…

    Shot on SIGHT?!!? Isn’t that a little extreme?

    I have worked with Illegals along the border who actually PAID taxes…LOTS of them who paid. They understood that it was necessary for them to be paying taxes so that it would not become an issue for them as they sought to become citizens. SO THEY PAY TAXES.

    Bush’s resident laborer program is farce as well because it DISALLOWES those who participate from becoming citizens. That is NOT being explained to them either. They are being deprived of the very path they most want to take…the one they have already risked everything for.

    I realize that there are seriously bad and dangerous coyote’s out there who are basically entire truckloads of the undocumented arivals every summer. I see the headlines and read the stories just as most of us do. …But SHOT ON SITE? …No trial? no proof of anything? just shot on sight?

    Again I see the same problem that seems so pervasive these days. An almost total lack of understanding of the law…much less respect for it. We need to do a better a job of teaching civics so that we end up with fewer wacko zanies out there creating havoc and seeking to make more wacko zanies.

    RGF

    Posted by: RGF at March 31, 2006 3:36 PM
    Comment #137154

    Penalizing employers will NEVER work.

    They will continue to take the risks since the payoff is so great for them, especially when they rob the laborers themselves of their last paychecks. Further, the COST of making the risk too great for employers FAAAAAR exceeds any fines savings we might acheive through such extreme enforcement measures.

    The ONLY solution I see is to get over it. We GAIN more from these laborers then they take from us. Far more. This is a non-issue.

    RGF

    Posted by: RGF at March 31, 2006 3:45 PM
    Comment #137160

    Dave, Allen and RGF,
    Thank you all so much for opening a discussion about the problems. I know that emotionally it is satisfying to think about shooting on sight a coyote who traffics in human beings.

    While I have mentioned that I am pro-death, it leaves me feeling sick inside each time it is performed and I want to make sure that it is only for the absolute worse crimes… If there are deaths associated with a person transporting illegal aliens I believe that would be a possible exception… but not on sight… though from a detached viewpoint it is satisfying.

    In regards to citizenship. I believe that a status that will allow a person to live here (who is already here) should be developed so they can pay the taxes that are being missed. It has been my experience too that many illegal aliens do pay taxes… However, like the people who don’t want to reward people for breaking the law.. I don’t believe that citizenship should be given.

    People who want to come here for citizenship more than anything else are the ones that wait to do it legally, regardless of the cost. This should be rewarded with citizenship. This does not include political refugee status aliens fleeing persecution for their religious, political beliefs or because of their ethnicity. There is already a means for them… sometimes too narrowly defined, but it is there.

    RGF,
    I have said it a couple of times on this site. We don’t really have a math or science problem… we have a knowledge of political science, the social sciences and critical thinking.

    How do I come to this conclusion? After the Soviet Union launched Sputnik a major conference was called to determine what was wrong with our schools… because we had fallen behind the Soviets.

    I read this who book written by our best and brightest scientists… and no one asked what the child sitting in their 6th grade class had to do with any of this?

    It is American companies and the government that determine where our research dollars and development goes… not that child in the 6th grade. The kids are fine.

    If we were caught with our pants down, it was because of the adults making the decisions concerning where we went as a society… where our resources would go.

    As soon as the decision was made and the resources made available, it was America that got to the moon. With scientists who came from the supposedly troubled schools.

    There are 300 million people in the country! We do not need each and every child to be a mathematician or a scientist. We should develop a love of exploration and expose them to these… let them decide where their interests lie.

    We should have enough mathematicians and scientists to meet our needs… instead of forcing students with no aptitude or desire to suffer through classes just so they can get a “C” or a “D”… all in the name of supposedly keeping up with international test scores that no one understands. Those tests are apples and oranges that people can find out about if they want to research them.

    Each student should, however, learn the basics of how America works… How the electoral college works. What the Constitution really means. How to be critical consumer both in the commercial marketplace as well as in the marketplace of ideas.

    Thanks all.

    Posted by: Darren7160 at March 31, 2006 4:02 PM
    Comment #137163

    Dave,

    “2) I’m willing to accept the temporary peturbations caused by suddenly having several million new job postings open rather than legalize those here illegally.”

    You make the forced migration of 11 to 20 million people sound like a minor inconvenience… maybe the newspaper will be a little heavier because of all the help wanted ads. No biggie.

    Or, the inflationary pressure caused by the lost jobs? Sure, we might start making $20, $25 and hour flipping burgers.. but those burgers will cost $10.

    Do you not believe that there would be major, significant problems with trying to move this many people? Or does it just not matter?

    Death, famine, disease?

    I was thinking about the strict adherence to the law thing…

    Afghanistan is being heavily criticized because they were going to try a man for leaving Islam and converting to Christianity. Many mischarterized it as because he converted to Christianity, but it was because he turned his back on Islam.

    Here is a sovereign nation (which we helped create) that has a legal and a religous prohibition for leaving the Islamic faith. The penalty is death. It is against their law. Period.

    I believe that this is an example of a law not being moral… but in the strictest adherence as viewed by many, I don’t people being upset with a nation dealing with a law breaker.

    Instead, the out cry, the articles, the e-mails being shot back and forth in support of this criminal causes me to rock back on my heels in amazement. What part of breaking the law don’t they understand?

    Could it be that, as Stalin said, “One death is a tragedy; a million is a statistic.”

    Posted by: Darren7160 at March 31, 2006 4:16 PM
    Comment #137175

    Darren,

    I would love to imagine that all those who desire to become legal citizens would have the luxury of waiting for our beurocracy to process them before they enter our country. That is simply not possible for the vast majority of them. I have worked with these people. I was a tax preparer for colonias projects along the border for several years in a row. I can tell you that these people are bending over backwords to pay their taxes, even those that are not yet legally in this country. That is the truth. I prepared a return for a family, the same family two years in a row. They stuck in my mind because the first year they made less than $3,000 …Mother, Father and 6 kids lived on less than $3,000 that year. They got no aid or special treatment. The father was seriously injured by an employer who then renigged on helping him to recover from his injuries. No help from any source was given or offered. They survived by virtue of the subsistence garden they kept for growing food. The following year, they made more than ten times that amount. The eldest son acheived an academic scholership to College and the father was able to work again. This is a true story. I cannot, obviously reveal any personnal or specific identifying information about them, but you can rest asssured this story is real.

    I spent several years in a row doing tax returns for the undocumented residents in this country and I can tell you that they showed up for us by the thousands to pay taxes. We would go to the colonias projects, a busload of preparers followed by several others in cars and we would work all day long helping them to prepare their returns. The line would wrap around around the building and down the street. They understood the need to pay taxes in order to be able to gain citizenship. If they did not pay their taxes, the INS would make it VERY difficult for them to adjust their status on moral grounds for tax evasion. They knew and UNDERSTOOD this. the one thing THEY ALL WANTED, was legal status in this country. Some of them already had legal status and were showing up to get help for family members.

    This idea that they are here for free ride to take advatage of us is nothing more than a load of rediculous hooeey. Such notions are born out of shallow greed by comparison and paranoia. The parable of the workers in the vinyard comes to mind.

    Darren, you say it has been your experience…
    Based on what, Darren? Experience of what exactly? Did you just paranoically dream it up based on nothing but hooeey? You see my experience with the undocumented and taxes, what do you have to say in return?

    …As for the strict adherence to law, as you put it, there are unjust laws. That is why there are people like Martin Luther King Jr and Ghandi. Such people are successful as peaceful dissenters by civil disobedience because there is such a thing as a universal consciousness and an absolute morality. By taking action which forces to light the injustices of laws which are themselves unjust, they appeal to a universal consciousness which the laws themselves are meant to be trying to follow themselves. Read St. Thomas Aquinas on law. It’s illuminating. Law is MEANT to be only a lowest common denominator. It evolves slowly by means of decisions made, ideally, for the common good of us all and by the slow and methodical evolution of case law as issues get more and more defined by the kinds of cases and fact situations they adress.

    What flabbergasts me about Bush, neo-cons and this new breed of republican in Washington these days, is that they operate without any consciousness or awareness of law at all. Their actions are completely devoid of understanding or respect for law at all. In fact, law is to them, merely a tool to be manipulated to acheive an end they desire for purely base reasons. The energy bill which Bush pushed so hard for on ENRON’s behalf in the first months of his presidency is a prime example. The disregard for constitutional protections is another. Outing Valery Plame, declaring an illegal war, disregarding obligations to the UN, etc. etc. the list goes on.

    Ghandi was successful in India because the British Government actually, ultimately, had a conscience. If this American administration were in charge in India during Ghandi’s efforts, it seems clear that things would have been different. Civil disobedience only works against those possessed of conscience and a respect for what rule law is intended to be.

    RGF

    Posted by: RGF at March 31, 2006 6:07 PM
    Comment #137189

    Since it is national policy for Mexico to send illegal aliens to this country, then we should make it national policy to charge Mexico one barrell of oil per day per alien for the cost of handling their problem. Of course we should send them back when they are rounded up. The way to deal with employers is to fine them X factor times the abount of taxes that were avoided.

    The Christian that was in Afghanistan and now is in Italy was only guilty of religious law not civil law. And the religious law is at variance with the religious leaders.

    Posted by: tomh at March 31, 2006 9:50 PM
    Comment #137253

    I keep hearing the statement that the illegals are taking jobs that Americans don’t want to do. That is crap. It’s all about the money. If conractors and corporations can pay less to a worker, it relates to more profit for them. I was always a blue collar worker and find that today, I can’t get a job unless I’m “bilingual” and am willing to work for next to nothing. The solution to the “11 million” is simple. Without jobs, and without a support system here, they would have to return home. Then they can apply for visas and return as a monitored alien.

    Posted by: dRauG at April 1, 2006 9:56 AM
    Comment #137430

    dRauG
    Religious law? Secular law? When the Afghanistan constitution has a clause that religious law supersedes all other laws… well, it could be you say 6, I say half a dozen. Or, it can be another attempt to pass of incorrect information hoping that it will be believed to be true.

    I don’t know if there is any particular link you wish to use to split the hair… but here is mine:
    http://www.tcf.org/list.asp?type=NC&pubid=1256

    It is interesting that you don’t question the significant difference the proper understanding can make. So many were trying to use it as another “Bad Muslims picking on poor Christians.” If you give the lie just enough truth….

    See, that is what is so difficult for discussion… instead of substanitive differences the Republicans have learned to bog it down with questioning the definitions of commonly used words and concepts. Looking for the misplaced comma or the misspelled word to deflect attention. Or. one of my personal favorites… no source is unbiased so I only believe certain sources (suprisingly, Fox seems to be high up there on the approved list… is this why they want our library records? To check up on the sources we will use?) and refuse to discuss or look at any others.

    It usually works, because just to maintain their sanity liberals throw up their hands and just walk away… reality and the truth have been denied so much that the President and his people can say “Historical Revisionism” and everyone nods their collective little heads in agreement. Regardless of this wonderful new internet that hold the collective words of all the prewar warnings, rhetoric, “proof” and justificantions. It isn’t them.. it is the people bringing it up.

    So, are you ready to speak out against America’s intervention and the public’s outcry against a nation upholding its law? I don’t think so.

    Remember… this is their Constitution, just like ours. The law of the land to which everything else must adhere to. It isn’t a local ordinance. Not all religious leaders agree? When have any religious leaders agreed completly on anything? What does that have to do with it? Do you think that are laws should be interpreted or selectively applied based upon the likes of Pat Robertson, Jerry Farewell, Gordon B. Hinckley, or the Pope?

    It is the government that interprets the law and refers it to the courts. Their interpretation of the law definitely was that this man violated the law and needed to be tried.

    Luckily, they found a loophole. Anyone leaving the Islamic faith, must by definition be insane. Cute, huh? Bet there are a couple of churches here that wouldn’t mind agreeing that leaving their faith is insane.

    Unless…. unless… you are going to say that a law should be just? The response to the violation of the law should not be “cruel or unusual”?

    Really, I think that unless there is another hair to split, you sir, are in a quandary… do you believe that the law is supreme and obedience supercedes all else? Or, do you believe that laws may be immoral or unjust and therefore not enforced?

    RGF,
    Possibly you should go back and take another look at my posts… you have been saying the exact things I have… exactly… so I am really not sure what you want me to comment on other than do I have as much experience as you.

    Very well, I will give a bit. I lived in Riverside, CA for 15 years. From 1985 until 2000. I worked casual labor while I was going to college which gave me lots of time to work with illegal aliens. Some of the temp jobs I worked while going to college were through Temp agencies and many of my coworkers I worked with were illegal aliens. I have admitted that I hired 3 of them when I needed help to move my household. I volunteered at my son’s school and spent time with a couple of the children. I had many personal friends that were illegals.. we hung out at each other’s houses, I ate with their families and played with their children. Did I do their taxes? No. So, you got me there.

    Possibly you are talking about the “Amnesty Permanent Resident Alien” status I posed as a compromise for those who fear the “dark races”?

    That was an attempt to see if I could get ANY RATIONAL discussion. Anything other than the “March ‘em to the border!”, or “Take away their income and force them to march themselves to the border.”

    The attempt at compromise was that we could offer this status and allow them the right to work here and contribute openly. They contribute more than they are given credit for and you will see that I have said this over and over.

    This might help the “They are taking over our government!!” hysteria and make sure that only legalized immigrants who were never here illegally and native born citizens vote… the children of the Amnesty Permanent Aliens, if born here would of course be able to vote. It isn’t completely unheard of for an American citizen to not be allowed to vote for violating the law… convicted felons, I believe, do not have that right. They have their others… but not the vote.

    We reward the people waiting for legal migration with citizenship and the right to vote.

    Now… I don’t know if you just didn’t read my posts clear enough… or I wasn’t clear enough in my explanation… or if even discussing any compromise at all is just considered abhorrent. If so, then we really are lost as a democratic society where it is a “my way or the highway”.

    The title of this blog was “Immigration Contemplation” which is what I was trying to do instead of Immigration Bashing.

    Ever notice the ones that have the trouble most with Darwin’s “theory” of evolution never have a problem with “Social Darwinism” and “Survival of the Fittest”… yet they also proclaim themselves the moral upholders of the law even if the law is immoral? Unless, as dRauG and I were discussing.. the law hits a little too close to home. Then, well… maybe laws should be just… maybe punishments should be measured… (Sigh)

    Posted by: Darren7160 at April 2, 2006 12:59 PM
    Comment #140120

    I have a few comments about illegal immigaration,
    first of all the polititions are not doing there jobs.There are people in other countrys waiting in lines to get visas to come to the usa the legal and right way,but they can’t because they do not have enough money in the bank or because we have to many [legal] immigrants here.There is something wrong with this picture! Why do millions and millions of people come here illegally and after awhile the polititions say we have a problem with this and then they turn around and grant all of these illegal people amnesty,then after that more and more people hear about the amnesty in america and then millions and millions more come here!!I blame this on the polititions!!!The roads are getting really bad in california it takes hours to get to places on the weekend when before it took only minutes to get to these places,I look around and see alot of jobs american young adults can have but the latinos are there doing those jobs!!What is wrong with this picture!!

    The polititions will be all latino in the future,we will have nothing in america that we had before,they vote for them selfs,they rally for illegal reform they get it and they get there amnesty and then they get there votes!!

    America Wake up!!!!!!!!!!!!!


    Posted by: kent dole at April 12, 2006 3:50 AM
    Comment #141914

    It is a total myth that the U.S. will collapse without cheap labor from illegal aliens, because there is actually a net loss to American taxpayers of $70 billion annually due following:

    • increased crime rates;

    • burden on education systems;

    • burden on healthcare systems;

    • burden on hospital systems;

    • burden on welfare systems; 32% of illegal aliens are on welfare (Jan-2004);

    • burden on Social Security system;

    • burden on Medicaid system;

    • burden on border patrol systems; ever increasing numbers are needed;

    • burden on insurance systems; illegal aliens can/will not pay for damages they cause;

    • burden on law enforcement systems; costing California billions per year;

    • burden on prison systems;29% of prisoners in state and federal prisons are illegal aliens (Sep-2004);

    • burden on voting systems; voter fraud with fake ID;

    That does not even include the real cost of the increased crime, and over one thousand homicides per year by illegal aliens.

    THE SOLUTION:

    • Secure the borders (with a mere 5.9% (i.e. 153,000 border patrol) of the total number of 2.6 million military, guard, and reserves; at a cost of $10 billion per year, which is far less than the current annual net losses of $70 billion due to illegal immigration)

    • Require enforcement of all immigration laws. Enforce the existing laws.

    • Require deportation of ALL illegal entries and visa overstays currently within our jails and prisons (i.e. within our custody). 

    • Require ALL employers to use the Social Security Verification System for ALL hires.

    • Deny ALL illegal alien births automatic citizenship.

    • Deny ALL illegal aliens a FREE K-12 education.

    • Deny ALL illegal aliens ANY and ALL public benefits (welfare, Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, etc.)

    • Deny ALL illegal aliens driver’s licenses.

    • Deny ALL illegal aliens college tuition.

    • Verify ALL voter’s citizenship, before permission to vote. Biometrics could be helpful.

    • Provide $300 and pre-paid transportation to each illegal alien volunteering to leave the U.S.

    • Allow 12 months for all other illegal aliens to leave on their own, with their own property. Those wishing to immigrate to the U.S. must get in line behind those already seeking to immigrate legally.

    Posted by: d.a.n at April 20, 2006 11:32 AM
    Comment #147384

    I think that all of this debate over wether the illegal immigarants should be able to stay in the United States is non-sense. As long as the illegals are here and not causing problems, they should be able to stay. America needs these people. And YES I said people. I do not think that illegal citizens should be treated any different than a legal citizens. They are human just like you and I. This is America! I beleive that if these people are willing to pay money and put themselves through horrid and stressful pain to get themselves here, then we should at least give them the opportunity to become a permanent citizen and make a decent living for themselves and their families. I totally support allowing these illegal immigrants to become a part of our Nation. It is only right!!!

    Posted by: Ashley at May 11, 2006 8:19 PM
    Comment #147544

    I am not easily understand this procedure.

    Posted by: yadav ghimire at May 12, 2006 6:26 AM
    Comment #236200

    It is so simple for me and most of the working class Americans. Our wages and life styles have been set back to the level and less than the illeagles. Of our money We have to pay tax’s. We have to pay medicle. We can not just go to the emegency room with our chidren and have it payed for. Yet we have to pay for there children to go. The working class American goes to the store and has to mostly buy comodities. The illeagles are in hordes with baskets full of junk. Yet we have fat cat Americans who are worried about getting there lawns mowed,”cheap”.
    I of course came from imagrants. It was not easy for my grand mother. She was given no free ride. She had to know the American constitution among other things. Most illeagles can not converse in English. They have little to no respect for this country.
    Middle class neighbor hoods are becomeing more and more like Mexico. Drunkeness and loud parties. Those who have money and live out of these neibor hoods, don’t care. They only worry about getting there lawns mowed,”cheap”
    I do think that finally middle class Americans have seen the light. Thr government has alowed this to lower the cost of middle class Amercan wages.
    My thought is that if something isn’t done soon, we may very well end up with a civel war on our hands. There may very well be few lawns to mow at what ever cost.

    Posted by: Brian at October 16, 2007 12:54 AM
    Comment #236525

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    Posted by: mohammad hosain shafee at October 20, 2007 3:53 PM
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