Republicans & Conservatives: Archives

Here is a link to video of her recent appearance, which is mentioned in the article.

I for one totally agree with the woman’s sentiment. To defend your faith by destroying things says that this faith does not have love for its basis. Would those who practice Christianity be asked to destroy Jewish or Muslim entities if it has been criticized? Definitely not!! It makes Islam a religion of revenge and death rather than a religion of peace and love. The woman is brave to state that publicly. Here is hoping that she will not be silenced by those who would see her as a heretic or a betrayer of their faith.

Gosh. Didn’t George Bush tell someone that God had told him to attack Iraq? I must be misremembering.

Now Tony Blair admits he consulted God in his decision.

Doesn’t matter which faith it is.

To defend your faith by destroying things says that this faith does not have love for its basis. Would those who practice Christianity be asked to destroy Jewish or Muslim entities if it has been criticized? Definitely not!! It makes Islam a religion of revenge and death rather than a religion of peace and love.

Daniel,

You’re kidding, right? Do you know how much death and destruction has been done in the name of Christianity? If Islam is a religion of revenge and death, then Christianity is a religion of hate and bigotry. God is not the monster, man is.

I agree with you guys wholeheartedly, but I wish I could do so without reservations. I wish when I read today in the paper that terrorists captured and tortured innocents that I could in turn call that a barbaric and inhuman practice without being forced to admit that our own government has the same official policy.

Neocon Bushies that applaud this woman should take a good long look at their hypocritical selves in the mirror.

“Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches…”

That’s not true. Repeatedly during the Civil Rights Movement white Southerners burned down black churches and terrorized whole communities of black people. Muslims are not the ‘only’ group ever to have resorted to deplorable techniques to defend their beliefs. It’s important to remember that when all the seperations between “us” and “them” are delineated.

There has to be a way out of this conflict other than the worst-case scenario. The situation remains too perilous to stay its present course. The direction of history practically hinges on this region and these groups of people.

Regardless, I do admire the courage of the lady who spoke out. Its good to hear from reasonable muslims from time to time. It seems like the only ones I see on the news these days are the radicals.

Unfortunately, she will probably recieve a Fatwah for this.

How about lately, jayjay? Isn’t that argument becoming a bit tread worn? And to Max, do you truly believe that what guys in ‘Frisco bath houses do to each other is comparable to the sawing of heads off of other people?

Max

Do you really make the moral equivalency argument?

Assume you are a perfectly innocent Muslim, how afraid are you really to speak against the U.S. on the streets of Washington. Okay, assume you are a perfectly innocent American, how afraid are you to speak out against the terrorists in a Muslim nation? Whose hands would you rather fall into, the U.S. authorities or a terrorist group in Iraq? For all the accusations against us, we so far have maintained a perfect head to body ratio among the people at Guantanamo.

You really are not afraid of your government - admit it. You know you can say and write whatever you want. That is why you do it. This woman makes a real statement and takes a real risk and you answer with the PC pretend courage of the sophomore leftist. Yes, let’s us well fed Americans stand up and defy those in our own country who will do nothing against us. Let’s accuse them of doing all sorts of things that they wont really do. Let’s pretend to be brave. Let’s look in the mirror and make an ugly face.

In other words, let’s avoid facing the real problem. Yes we are ALL guilty, so that means we can take no serious action. Isn’t that comforting?

To woman marine. First and foremost, I thank you for your service to the rest of us; second, you cannot truly be naive enough to not see the difference, can you?

Thanks for the article, Jack. Read a couple articles, came across this quote from an interview:

“I am not a Christian, a Muslim, or a Jew. I am a secular human being. I do not believe in the supernatural, but I respect others’ right to believe in it.

Dr. Ibrahim Al-Khouli: Are you a heretic?

Wafa Sultan: You can say whatever you like. I am a secular human being who does not believe in the supernatural…

Dr. Ibrahim Al-Khouli: If you are a heretic, there is no point in rebuking you, since you have blasphemed against Islam, the Prophet, and the Koran…

Wafa Sultan: These are personal matters that do not concern you.”

Cool. I like this person. It takes courage to stand up to a religious fanatic. But am I missing something? Wafa Sultan is not a Muslim, correct?

Max,

Ahh, I haven’t heard any liberal extremism in almost 2 days … it’s nice to see I wasn’t dreaming it up.

Bush is Hitler!!! Bush is the same as the Terrorists!!!!! Why, because he invaded Afghanistan?? I thought we all agreed on that? Or do the libs take that back and now declare that “Neo-Con-ism”?

And which official policy exactly is it that says we torture? Are you talking about Abu Ghraib which caused several people to go to prison … sent there by American military courts??? Or perhaps you mean Gitmo … where the “tortured prisoners” are … get this … gaining weight.

So, again, which policy? Please state the Bill or the Federal Law or the UCMJ which says we endorse torture.

I however endorse torture for extreme scenarios. Otherwise, if your family gets blown up by a terrorist and you found out we had one of the cohorts locked up 48 hours prior … and then you scream “WHY COULDN’T YOU STOP IT??!!” … and then someone will tell you “Well, he admitted he knew all of the crucial details but said he wouldn’t tell us. And, the strange thing is, after we fed him a 7 course meal topped off by a milkshake … you know … he still didn’t want to tell us. Go figure!!! Maybe he was set off by the 300 thread count sheets he was resting in while Agent Smith massaged his lower back?”

PHX 8 is right, she is an Arab but not a Muslim. I’m surprised (A) they let her talk as much as she did and (B) no one clubbed her over the head after she was a minute into it.

I hope she has bodyguards!!!

JayJay,

You’re going to compare midieval times to now? Really??? “Oh but Christians had the Crusades so they’re just as bad as today’s mainstream and extremist Muslims!!! Argghh Argghh Argghh!!”

Was anything right back then?? Was there any capacity at all to understand a group of people who lived more than a day’s horse ride away from you?? Were any major religious leaders compassionate and understanding of differences back then? Were any Atheist leaders??

Does disavowing religion make you more peaceful? For all those Atheist and agnostics out there who would answer that question with a “Yes” … how many examples would you like me to cite of horrible, malicious, non-religious leaders?? Hey!! I’ll even do this … I’ll stay in the 1900-present bracket and fill up your hands and toes with examples … and I’ll dabble in every continent except North America and Antartica.

oops, and Australia …

Woman Marine,

You ARE misremembering it. He never said God told him to invade Iraq. He said he looks to God for strength in making the right decisions. It’s at least better than the liberal caucus or some weekly poll!

Scolex:

If I am naive at this age, there is no hope :).

Certainly there is a difference, but not by a lot. We have to take some responsibility for what is happening.

I do admire the woman’s courage, but if she were still a practicing Muslim would she say the same?

Aren’t there still churches being burned in the south? We have some serious religious differences here in this country. Wouldn’t be so much of a problem if it didn’t enter into the political arena. Maybe.

Phx8

A Muslim by birth and culture. It is the same way many people are Christians. Most Americans, even atheists, have our cultural roots in protestant Christianity.

Beyond that, I don’t think strict Muslims allow anyone to stop being a Muslim.

Her background as a Muslim is what gives her standing. If you or I said that same thing, it would not mean as much (or the same thing).

She is also saying it in Arabic. Most of us can’t do that even if they thought it worth it to put us on Arab TV.

Ken C: I don’t think I am, but I would play hard to find it.

Have you seen me ever post about polls? And I don’t think I have been doing any name calling of any conservatives (or liberals) that I disagree with. I don’t think hystrionics are necessary to get my point across.

Ah, found at least a reference to it:

Here

This is not where I first saw it, it’s just a source that showed up when I googled it.

ibrahim to wafa; are you a heretic? wafa to ibrahim ;you can say whatever you like!!! wow this lady is incredible! now for the sad part care to wager on the amount of the fatwa!

Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies.”

There are a number of logical problems with this statement. First, there are a number of right wing christian groups that are actually terrorist organizations. As well, there is an assumption this very small group of protesters represents the whole. There are several billion Muslims in the world, this example is only a few hundred people. There are bad representatives of every group. If you actually take a look at the Koran, you’ll find it says rather clearly to treat Jews and Christians with respect, as they are fellow children of Abraham. Jesus isn’t just another prophet, hes extremely important, so much so that his return is foretold, just like with the Christians.

There are idiots who misrepresent every group. Does that mean a few hundred people can really tell you where 2 billion stand?

www.iandanger.com/blog

He never said God told him to invade Iraq. He said he looks to God for strength in making the right decisions.

Ken, womanmarine,

Actually a BBC documentary claims he did. Elusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs

Nabil Shaath says: “President Bush said to all of us: ‘I’m driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, “George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.” And I did, and then God would tell me, “George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq …” And I did. And now, again, I feel God’s words coming to me, “Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East.” And by God I’m gonna do it.’”

Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies.â€

There are a number of logical problems with this statement. First, there are a number of right wing christian groups that are actually terrorist organizations. As well, there is an assumption this very small group of protesters represents the whole. There are several billion Muslims in the world, this example is only a few hundred people. There are bad representatives of every group. If you actually take a look at the Koran, you’ll find it says rather clearly to treat Jews and Christians with respect, as they are fellow children of Abraham. Jesus isn’t just another prophet, hes extremely important, so much so that his return is foretold, just like with the Christians.

There are idiots who misrepresent every group. Does that mean a few hundred people can really tell you where 2 billion stand?

www.iandanger.com/blog

What about non-Christians/Jews?

Does disavowing religion make you more peaceful? For all those Atheist and agnostics out there who would answer that question with a “Yes†… how many examples would you like me to cite of horrible, malicious, non-religious leaders?? Hey!! I’ll even do this … I’ll stay in the 1900-present bracket and fill up your hands and toes with examples … and I’ll dabble in every continent except North America and Antartica.

Ken,

I’m not sure why you are getting so worked up about my statement. I do not disavow religion and I am not an agnostic or an Atheist, but I do disavow those who will use God to justify their hatred. I really do not need you to cite any examples, hatred is all around us, that is clear. Hatred is Hatred is Hatred.

“What about non-Christians/Jews?”

something I was considering myself. In terms of religiously based terrorism and other sorts of violence, there was a great deal of atheist violence in China till around when deng shao ping took over. I myself don’t know of any Buddhist terrorists, but I’m pretty selective of whom id actually consider Buddhist, since there were a lot of people, historically, to give money to temples then turn around and act entirely sadistically. I don’t know Indian history or the history of Hinduism well enough to give you examples of Hindu terrorism (hare krishnas bugging you to buy their flowers at the airport doesnt count…wait do they even do that anymore…nevermind)
The real issue is that it is hard to determine what sorts of violence fit into this mold. The colonialism of the Europeans put them in a unique possition as oppressor that no other civilization had possesed on anywhere near the same scale. because of this, resistance to colonialism isnt reasonably considered unjustified violence. At the same time, what is going on now is just a continuation of this same struggle.

At what point does something go from being resistance to being arbitrary violence? Human passions do carry us further than the rights of retribution as a deterrent and repparation allow us. But that is a universal human problem.

Jay Jay
You’re kidding, right? Do you know how much death and destruction has been done in the name of Christianity?

Your right, it was done in the name of Christianity, but NOT by true Christians.

If Islam is a religion of revenge and death, then Christianity is a religion of hate and bigotry.

Fake Christianity is, not true Christianity.

God is not the monster, man is.

HOW RIGHT YOU ARE!!!!!!!!!!!!

A good Muslim, a good Arab, a good person
would disavow what the few radical, violent
Muslims do.
A true Christian disavows what a few abortion
clinic bombers, Fred Phelps fanatical followers
and Crusaders did and do.
A true American disavows it’s governments
actions when they believe those actions to be
wrong. Whether it was slavery in the past or
recent wars, it is better to have a nation
where you can openly disavow your governments
actions ( or inaction ) and individuals brave
enough to speak out, even if they’re wrong.

No matter what side of politicals you’re on.
No matter what color or religion or sexual
orientation you are. We are ALL better off if
we question our leaders from time to time. If
we don’t hold our own favorite politians, etc.,
feet to the fire on occasion, they walk all over
us and our values, and we get burned.

I think we can ALL agree on that.

Okay, now you can all go back to snipping at
each other and calling Bush Hitler.

Why do so many conservatives make groundless scapegoating comments that are belittling? Is it because self-righteousness supercedes truth? Of course, if this was so, they wouldn’t be able to see it anyway. It will just be deflected back onto the “other”. And they probably won’t see how such a stance has everything to do with this article either.

And Liberals too, for that matter.

Ahem. God is never a monster. It is the people who misuse Him/Her for their own self-interests who are monsters. And that is certainly not something of which the Muslims have a corner on the market.

Actually,after looking at womanmarines’link about God telling him to invade Iraq, maybe President Bush is the monster. What a shame, what a shame, what a shame.

You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: It never occurred to you to be offended by the phrase, “One nation, under God”, or were not offended if someone suggested that it be removed from our Pledge…

You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You’ve never protested about seeing the 10 Commandments posted in public places, or if you have actually protested that very thing…

You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You still say “Christmas” instead of “Winter Festivalâ€, or if you wish someone who is not a Christian a “Happy Holidayâ€, so their feelings are saved…

You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You bow your head when someone prays, or if you just remain silent out of respect and courtesy…

You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You stand and place your hand over your heart when they play the National Anthem.

You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You treat Iraqi War military with great respect, even though you know the war itself is not justified…

You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You’ve never burned an American flag, or if you do burn it as a protest against something shameful America is engaged in…

You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You know what you believe and you aren’t afraid to say so, no matter who is listening, because that is why we call it “Freedom of Speechâ€â€¦

You might be a TRUE AMERICAN if: You’d give your last dollar to a friend, or to help someone you don’t know through a trying time…

In order to be a TRUE American, all you have to do is realize that those who disagree with you are also TRUE Americans…

You might be a TRUE BIGOTED RACIST FASCIST if: You limit your mind like Marysdude.

I just wanted to highlight a point that has been made here a few times already. There are 1.2 billion Muslims in the world, 22% of the world’s population.

It should be evident to all that the values or culture of a group of people that large cannot be stereotyped. One can not simply say “Muslims are…” and even hope to describe so much as half of them.

I am currently living in China. Many people do not know this, but about 22million Muslims (about 18% of all Muslims) live in China. In western China, near the Afghanistan border, you can find towns that are majority Muslim.

These guys are not the same as the Arabian Muslims, the Persians, or the Indonesian Muslims. They drink beer and play music, cook bbq(lamb kebobs), and have a relatively loose interpretation of the Koran. Definately not the portrayl of what Muslims are in the American media.

Its important to remember that different places have different people, and this applies to Muslims too.

We first have to ask whether most Muslims believe the terrorists or fanatics represent them. If they do not believe this, it’s rather pointless to blame them for notassuming that they need to actively denounce the terrorists to outsiders, 24/7.

I mean, we don’t assume that we need to actively denounce Ann Coulter or Jerry Falwell all the time. The reality is, people assume that folks can examine the evidence for themselves, and read the underlying messages that folks send when they say “we don’t support this particular act”: “We are not like these people.”

We also have to take into account the reticence on the part of Muslims to turn against their own, and their own misgivings about our actions. They may view us and their fanatic as equally bothersome or dangerous folks.

It may not be all that wise to expect cooperation if we are not willing to demonstrate goodwill in substance in the Middle East.

Jack’s point was a good one—-would you be more afraid of speaking ill of Islam in the middle East, or of Christianity in the United States.

We all know the answer to this question. It’s rhetorical, so don’t bother suggesting that there is an equivalence. Would you rather be in held captive in Guantanomo or held captive by Islamofascist terrorists? Just ask Tom Fox, a peaceful man who gave up his safety and security to help Iraqis. A peace activist, he was captured, tortured and murdered.

No, the US isn’t perfect by any stretch. Nor is Christianity. But the fervor with which some jump into the fray to defend those who so radically distort Islam by comparing their actions today to actions from years gone by is sad.

The real sadness is that if these folks dare answer the questions I posed, and do so honestly, they can come to no other conclusion but that they are wrong. There is a cognitive dissonance that they experience, and many simply don’t have the intellectual courage to admit their mistakes.

>>You might be a TRUE BIGOTED RACIST FASCIST if: You limit your mind like Marysdude.

Posted by: Aldous at March 12, 2006 04:37 AM

Aldous??? What was that all about? Is someone using Aldous name in their post?

Do not confuse the message and the messenger! Mankind will always disappoint & fall short; God never does.

The God of the Bible, the God I follow & trust, shows us the Light of what it’s really all about…a relationship with Him.

The Koran has been changed & added to over the centuries. (The Biblical Canon closed in the 1500’s and God adds in Revelations a great punishment to anyone who would change or add to His Word). I have read many parts of the Koran and have several Muslim friends who do not agree with the hate it promotes. The Koran tells Muslims to “not take a Gentile/Christian as a friend or you will become a loser like them” - this isn’t what the Bible teaches: “Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

Many people invoke the name of God and have done heinous things in His name - that doesn’t mean God was in it.

So instead of finding excuses, specific current or historical incidences of man being sinful, and finger-pointing at a Bible you may not have read. Ask yourself this: “Am I in a right relationship with God? Where would I go if I died tonight?

That’s the ultimate question…”As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Joshua 29:11

Cathy

P.S. I’m not perfect in anyway, I’m just saved because of what Jesus Christ did on the cross for you & me.

Could it be that “We as a Society” teach our Children that Appeasement and Oppression is the only way to settle our differences? Unwanted Destruction or Harm is wrong no matter how you look at it. So my questions to those who teach Appeasement and/or Oppression is how can you say that one type of voilence is any worse than another?

Christian, Jews, Muslims, or any group that think that they can change the world through death and destryction, please show me in Written History where that has stopped “The Establishment and Powers-that-Be” from doing what they want? No, if the likes of Osama Bin Laden want to prove that they have a better way of Life than prove it by Words and Actions. For all it takes to destroy the Earth is a handful of electrons; however, knowning how to create and control such power is knowledge that Man has yet to consume.

I am hoping to get an answer to a question that has bothered me for a while. I hope I can get some good dialogue in this thread. The question is how and why did being a member of the “religious right” become such a bad thing in our society.

I am a member of a Southern Baptist church(although I have not been going in a while, I still hold the beliefs) that is more conservative than most that dont handle snakes(easy now, this is a small joke). We believe that abortion is murder, homosexually is a sin as is premarital sex, drinking and cussing just to name a few. We also believe that we should stand against these things.

The thing we believe most is that there was only one that lived His life without sin and we owe our Salvation to His Grace and His Grace alone. Now that being said, it is hammered every week to us that we never, never, ever have the right to judge anyone. We believe that every day we commit sins and therefore we are no more pure or righteous than anyone else NO MATTER WHAT. So basically if I say that abortion is wrong, I am not and will not judge anyone that has had or preformed one. I have too much sin in my life to be qualified to judge their’s.

I personally cannot take the blame for the Crusades nor the bombings of churches in Birmingham nor bombing abortion clinics because either I wasn’t alive during those times or quite frankly actions like that are not condoned by our belief system. However, we live in a country that has freedoms and responsibilties(you cannot seperate the two). IMHO any person has a right and a responsibility to get laws passed that reflect their views and morals.

I freely admit that at times I get too mad at liberal positions and some liberals, but why is there so much pure hate on both sides and again how/why did my religious beliefs become so evil to so many?

Moral equivalency was a strategy of the old Soviet Union. It was the goal of their disinformation campaign to make people in the west believe that their own system was the moral equivalent of the communism. “Sure the Soviet Union had gulags where millions of people were horribly murdered, but in America during the same period you had scores of lynching,” they would say. “You can’t judge us.”

It was a variation on the “he who is without sin throws the first stone” idea. Nobody is without sin and no system is perfect. Does that mean that until you are perfect, you have no right to find fault with anyone? If you stole a pencil from your employer yesterday, are you the moral equivalent of Ken Lay? In the act, I guess you are, but you don’t believe that, do you?

Of course not. We should not assert in our argument what we don’t believe in our hearts.

I don’t understand why some people have to jump in with the “we are just as bad” argument when they know it is not true and the very fact that they make it shows they know they are wrong. It is like the variation of an old joke.

An American is discussiing freedom with an Iranian/N Korean/Syrian (fill in your favorite anti-American despot). The American says:

“We have freedom in the U.S. I can go to the middle of Washington and say Bush is an idiot.”

The Iranian answers, “That’s nothing. I can go to the middle of Tehran town and say Bush is an idiot even louder.”

Moral equivalency is the strategy of lots of bad guys. If they can make you think you have no right to judge them, they win. If we recognize shades of grey, we must see that some are much darker than others.

Apologies, Marysdude. I just have a problem with people who require conformity to be considered “American”.

In any case, did anyone else notice that Jack’s article comes from Al Jazeera? That’s the same newspaper the GOP wanted to bomb. Curious an Arab Media would be better than Fox News.

Nicely put Stephen.

Also Wafa Sultan should be commended for her efforts, but why is it that I doubt that Jack & his ilk are really interested in using this for anything other than their own self-interested prejudices and tossing in a few tired barbs at Islam while they’re at it. You may not be as brave as her, but why have none of you asked what can you do to make her efforts a little bit easier & make the chances of success better? It’s not about whether or not you are allowed to judge ‘them’, it’s what exactly are you trying to achieve through the act of judging. Are you trying to convince us they are ‘bad guys’? Is this the third grade? ‘Bad guys’ might be useful to give a bunch of marines a little bit of extra courage when they go out on patrol, but that’s all it is useful for. If you’re actually thinking in terms of ‘us’ & ‘them’, guess what? We (all of us) have already lost.

This is also kind of perverse on a day when Slobodan Milosevic finally succeeds in dodging his responsibility (by dying) for the crimes committed in Bosnia (I hope this is recent enough for you jeobagodonuts). Of course the delays in getting him to trial can be put down to the standard 20 year wait for getting round to punishing despots for bad things they do.
We do ask ourselves the questions you want us to jeobagodonuts. Specifically in the Middle East Islamic world there are problems (I mean duh), ultimately they have to fix them. Perhaps we then ask ourselves further questions that you either aren’t informed enough for or don’t want to because they will challenge the comfortable world view you’ve created for yourself (or course this needs to be spiced up with a little paranoia… them Red Indians are massing at the OK Corral aren’t they Jeb).

How’s about showing the ordinary man & woman in the Middle East (& everywhere else) that you aren’t as hypocritical as they think you are.
So now that Milosevic has gotten away, how about doing something about the rest of the criminals (leaders & foot soliders alike) that still hide in (orthodox christian since being subtle wouldn’t work) Serbia, for their crimes in the murder of muslim men & boys, and the organised gang rape of muslim women? (Should I throw in a parody of how serbians are devil spawn?)
Or perhaps you might like to stand up and denounce the Israelis in Hebron who are prepared to honour the grave site of the mass murder who waltzed into the mosque at the tomb of Abraham (common to Jews, Christians & Muslims) and machine gunned them down while they prayed. Is this too difficult for you to do, or do you want to continue to play ‘cowboys & indians’. Do you want to be part of the solution, or do you keep being part of the problem. Well do you?

As for why the religious right has become ‘evil’, if you can tell me why some want to do the same to Islam, maybe I can help you. Oh and it might have something to do with the impression that some (others if not you) want to force everyone else to live your way and no other. Some of us may have had a good long look at what you believe in and decided that if that is really the will of God, then I guess I’ll just have to choose eternal damnation (apologies to Mark Twain).

Ha! Another Fox News comment, I love it. Just because they don’t soak their news in a liberal chromium wash doesn’t mean it’s a bad news station.

As a matter of fact, since we all supposedly believe in the voice of the people, Fox News has more listeners than MSNBC, CNN, and the network news combined … there ya have it. They’re the best.

JayJay,

BBC (a) slams the Iraq War everyday and (B) cannot vouch for the accuracy of Saath’s quote of Bush.

Actually Saath later recanted his initial meaning of his quote and later said, in paraphrase, “that we understood GWB meant he sought God for the courage to make the right decisions”. Hardly anything to cause one to run naked down the street while waving their arms haphazardly in the air screaming for help.

Also… it is not true that Arab-Americans in this country can criticize the Administration. The repercussions of doing so are quite severe and will make even Jack hesitate.

“Fox News has more listeners than MSNBC, CNN, and the network news combined” I know your type doesn’t deal much in reality or with facts, but do you have any evidence which supports this claim? Evidence that comes from a valid source? Didn’t think so.

Good post Jack.

It takes a special woman and a special individual to stand up and make a statement like that in a society that hasn’t historically respected the opinions of their female citizens.

All of civilization can take a lesson from her, not just the muslims.

Ken C

As a matter of fact, since we all supposedly believe in the voice of the people, Fox News has more listeners than MSNBC, CNN, and the network news combined … there ya have it. They’re the best.

1. You have confused popularity with quality. Just because something is popular, doesn’t make it “the best”. For example, “Love Story” was one of the best-selling novels of its day and age, but very few people were stupid enough to claim that it was a great novel.

2. Faux News’ ratings are NOTHING compared to the network news. Fox gets something like 2 million viewers. ABC News, the weakest of the three major networks, gets OVER 9 MILLION VIEWERS. Furthermore, Faux News’ ratings have been dropping steadily. Bill O’Lie-ly is so desperate that he’s trumped up a feud with Keith (“he who shall not be named”) Olbermann.

If you can’t get your facts correct, why should anyone care about your opinions?

Here’s an opinion:

All news outlets are now in the ‘tabloid news’ business.

Loki:

Nice post. I agree with you whole heartedly on your position throughout your writing, except for parts of the last paragraph.

First, I dont pretend to represent any church or other group. As a matter of fact, I disagree on some minor doctorines of my church. I do believe that other religions are false, else I couldnt believe mine is true. But that in no way means that I believe that my religion should be forced on you or anyone else nor does it mean that I condemn others for their beliefs. I have been taught and believe that all men and women have the will and responsibility to choose their beliefs for themselves and in this respect are only answerable to God.

I am curious to see in your opinion how I(or others) am forcing my religion on you. Thanks

Elliott bay……Fox news is the highest rated CABLE news network. But you can watch your drive buy media for free.

Jack,

All I’m saying is that if you are holding people in jail, are torturing them, and know they are innocent, it kind of crimps your style when it comes to complaining about the enemy using similar tactics.

So how much torture of innocent people is okay by you? Where do you draw this line?

Answer a question for me: Waterboarding is defined as being “bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner’s face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt. According to the sources, CIA officers who subjected themselves to the water boarding technique lasted an average of 14 seconds before caving in.” Do you call this technique torture when it is used against U.S. soldiers? If note, what do you call it?

For the record, yes, I would rather be tortured by Americans who would I am sure would be softer on me and possibly not kill or rape me (though my understanding is this has happened). However, as long as we are condoning torture as a legitimate way of handling prisoners we lose all our high ground and a lot of ability to complain without sounding like hypocrites, for instance, your ridiculous statement (I paraphrase) “but we torture so much nicer than they do! It’s totally different!”

If Bushies had real balls they would follow this woman’s example and call for an end to the American policy of torturing prisoners. They would hold their president accountable to the law and not place him above it.

The question is how and why did being a member of the “religious right†become such a bad thing in our society.

submarinesforever,

The answer to that question is quite simple. It is about respect, oppression, and the “holier-than-thou†attitude of the religious right. The religious right is not satisfied to practice their beliefs; they feel that everyone should believe as they do. A great majority on the religious right tries to impose their idea of morality on others.

Now, I am not saying that you engage in these activities yourself or that all on the right side of religion feel this way, but there is a large group on that side that do.

I consider myself a Christian, but I see the bible and spirituality quite differently than someone on the religious right. Does that make my beliefs wrong? Who is to say that your beliefs are right?

Unfortunately, understanding the Bible is not as straightforward as some would like you to believe. You can take it as a literal, inerrant work, or you can see beyond the letters written and see the hidden message that is truly protected by God through the Spirit. Man wrote the Bible. By taking a literal view of the Bible, you are putting your faith in man, not God. Once you put your faith in God and seek the truth, he will reveal it.

We need to have respect for each other’s beliefs. When you try to oppress a group of people based on your interpretation of the Bible, then that respect goes out the window.

That is my beleif and I would never think of trying to impose it on others. I respect those of a more traditional belief, but I do not respect it when those beliefs are used to suppress others.

Just because someone is more hateful than yourself, that does not justify your own hate.

Submarinesforever:

We also believe that we should stand against these things.

and

IMHO any person has a right and a responsibility to get laws passed that reflect their views and morals.

Perhaps you don’t quite understand the objections? This is viewed by many as legislating your religious views on others. I hope you can see the connection there.

It’s one thing to stand against something with education and persuasion, it’s entirely something else to try to legislate your religious views, particularly when they are not universally shared, even among Christians.

I want people to WANT to believe what I believe, I don’t think legislation forcing them to act on my beliefs is the way to go. I also think God knows the difference. I think God wants us to persuade and show by our words and actions what we believe in an attempt to convince. He knows what is in all our hearts.

You neo-libazi’s are trying to impose your beliefs on everyone else. I just don’t see the difference between what you speak against and what you speak for. It is all the same just a different side.

nunya:

Speak for yourself, wingnut. Liberals are not the ones trying to ban this and ban that. Liberals are not the ones trying to turn America into one happy white christian theocracy.

To be a Liberal is to respect an individual’s rights.

nunya,

What is a neo-libazi? If you talking about liberals, then please explain how we impose our beliefs on everyone else. I have a feeling it’s kinda like that whole absence of religion is a religion crap. Equality does not equal oppression. You are free to believe what you wish, but please have respect and allow others their beliefs. You cannot prove that your beliefs are correct anymore than you can prove mine are incorrect.

Max you cannot win a war by trying to maintain the political high ground. You win by killing more of them than they do of you. We certainly have the firepower all we need is the will to win which I am sorry to say is sorely lacking in our so called leaders. If the only way to gain info. is to torture then Im all for it. They will torture us either way. Who gives a crap about the opinion of the rest of the world? They will come around to our way of thinking when we win.

jc,

“They will come around to our way of thinking when we win.”

How can we be sure that “our way of thinking” is the way that is best for the world?

“Max you cannot win a war by trying to maintain the political high ground.”

Yet we say that we have the moral high ground?

And, oh BTW, who gave us that moral authority?

jc,

That is the saddest thing I have ever read here. The side that kills the most is the winner? Do you really value human life so little? We know the terrorists of 9/11 gave no value to life, but is that who we have become? Them?

Nobody ever wins a war.

>>They will torture us either way. Who gives a crap about the opinion of the rest of the world? They will come around to our way of thinking when we win.

Posted by: jc at March 12, 2006 03:38 PM

jc,

Certainly not Cheney/Bush, he doesn’t care about anyone elses opinion.

You are saying, “The school yard bully WINS!!!”. The world should bow down to the bully?

nrh,
I realize that Faux News is the highest rated cable channel, but that isn’t what Ken C said. He said Faux News had higher ratings “than MSNBC, CNN, and the network news combined”. He said it was a “matter of fact” - but he got the facts wrong.

He said Faux News had higher ratings “than MSNBC, CNN, and the network news combinedâ€. He said it was a “matter of fact†- but he got the facts wrong.

What difference does it make how high or low Fox news’ ratings are? Just because they have a large audiance doesn’t make them right.

JC,

Who gives a crap about the opinion of the rest of the world? They will come around to our way of thinking when we win.

This is the Bush attitude and is why 90% of the Arab world is lining up to fight us. They don’t see us as the good guys, and our case that we are gets weaker and weaker. If we fail to convince the Arab world that we are on the side of right we lose this war.

Max you cannot win a war by trying to maintain the political high ground. You win by killing more of them than they do of you. We certainly have the firepower all we need is the will to win which I am sorry to say is sorely lacking in our so called leaders. If the only way to gain info. is to torture then Im all for it. They will torture us either way. Who gives a crap about the opinion of the rest of the world? They will come around to our way of thinking when we win.

Aye, JC, but the question is what we will win. Hell isn’t much of an inheritance. Ever read “Heart of Darkness”?

max can prove with evidence that 90% of the arab world are fighting us?

jc,
Seems enough people have responded to you. In fact you’re so far off the mark I’m half thinking you’re more troll than really saying what you think, at least I hope so. Let me just add that ‘hearts & minds’ should be the objective, not body count. I mean Vietnam should have been the definitive lesson on that point.

submarinesforever,
I don’t want to go too far off the subject of this thread, but I basically agree with others who have responded to you. Say on homosexuality we just disagree completely. Live & let live I say… and no this doesn’t lead to the destruction of society. Denying those who want to take part in the church is more likely to do that.
By way of disclosure, I’m a lapsed Catholic of the jesuit variety (you know with the bad habits like thinking for yourself). I actually think/believe that abortion is a moral sin (contraception & the embrace of natural desire isn’t though, thus I lapse), this is my value system though. I still support the rights of people (and in practical terms, women) to make their own choices. There are a few basic reasons for this, the easy one is that the prohibition way has already been tried, it didn’t work. Also this is a core tenant of liberal philosophy (& not the cartoon version of liberals, but the one that the founding fathers used to establish the USA as the outstanding success it has become).
You cannot tell me there aren’t those from the religious right who aren’t trying to impose their belief system on everyone else through the law. If you disagree with them, then stand up. I for one would like to see a little disunity among the religious right, then I will be prepared not to paint all of them with one brush.

Bottom line though, is I just don’t think many, if not most of these ‘talking points’ are important enough to be given the profile they receive (yup I force myself to watch Fox News, I think the key is to try and get information from as many sources as possible & the truth will be somewhere inbetween. Though with Fox I only last as long as my incredulity does). The primary reason they are out there is to drive people to the polls, just like the left fearmongers in the workforce over wages & jobs. You’re being used people!
You say you’re Southern Baptist, so let me suggest one thing that I think is way more important than the stock standard issues. Inter-racial marriage. Does your church have a position? Are you a mainly white congregation or a black one? Why do there seem to be none that can’t be classed one way or the other? If there is a stance on this, why are the rest of us not hearing about it? I put it to you that standing up on this one issue is of more benefit to society than all your other moral crusades put together. Notice I carefully didn’t say what my position was, but it shouldn’t be hard to guess. (once again I apologise for going OT)

I was excited to see that after several posts and refuting several points, the only thing rebutted was the Fox News issue. Let’s face it, if they were free like the networks they would trounce everyone.

BUT! Whoever said it was right when they said “Just because something is popular doesn’t make it right” ….. YES! I AGREE! THANK YOU FOR MAKING ONE OF MY PERENNIAL POINTS THAT WEEKLY POLLS ARE AS VITAL AS HOT COCOA WITHOUT THE CHOCOLATE.

And if liberals think they’re pure and don’t try to impose their views on people, wow!!! … not being able to sing “Silent Night” at a Christmas Play, disallowing military recruiters access to colleges, forcing Affirmative Action quotas (I agree with them on a moral ground but not a Constitutional ground . . and they were indeed forced on EVERYONE . . college acceptances and jobs based on color of skin), disallowing free speech at colleges by setting up confrontational rallies vs. anyone with a view other than mainstream or extremist left views … Yes, the holier than thou act (in a secular way of course) is wearisome …

JayJay

You said “Nobody ever wins a war.”

I knew my history books made up VE and VJ day … I knew it!!!!!!

You do win wars. It might be with a lot of heart ache but you can win them … let us hope that our moral fiber never decays so much in this country that we deem nothing worth standing up and fighting for it. Unfortunately, sometimes I think we’re very close to that sad, defeatist attitude.

Max

We punish the people who torture. We do not torture people we know or believe to be innocent people. We do not torture as a form of punishment.

There is a definition problem of torture. My general rule of thumb is that anything that you might experience in tourist class trans Atlantic flight is not torture. And I am suspicious of the term for anything that doesn’t cause actual injuries.

Jack,

“My general rule of thumb is that anything that you might experience in tourist class trans Atlantic flight is not torture.”

You obviously haven’t been on the San Francisco to Shanghi, China Eastern flight.

I thought the ‘War on Christmas’ thing was done to death in a previous post - I remember a general consensus that the whole thing was silly, and that being stupid is shared in equal amounts across the entire political spectrum.
The military recruitment thing has a history of its own. Plus I think the Supreme Court just smacked them down unanimously, I’m not sure, I’m no expert on this one.
I agree that Affirmative Action is crude, but it’s like liberal democracy (remember not the Fox News definition of the L-word). It may not be that great, but it’s the best we can do for now.
As for whether college students need to be taken 100% seriously. I mean please, what were you like at that age. At least some of them will get a clue & a little bit smarter & at least they’re involved & not soaking in beer 24/7.

Can liberals be holier than thou. Yes. Is it annoying. Yes. Especially when they’re the sort of liberals who use it to appease their own conscience so they don’t have to feel guilty and don’t follow through on whatever they get worked up about this week. I don’t think the left has any lack of doing it’s own infighting, in fact we’re rather good at it.

max can prove with evidence that 90% of the arab world are fighting us?

Posted by: RODNEY BROWN at March 12, 2006 07:07 PM

Can you prove they’re not?

Ken C.,

Nice sarcasm. We can declare victory, but we have won nothing. War is not a game to be won or lost. War is a last resort defense to restore stability. Some wars are necessary to ensure security and some are born out of ignorance and intolerance. Anyone that uses a body count to determine a war win has blood on his or her hands.

Especially when they’re the sort of liberals who use it to appease their own conscience so they don’t have to feel guilty and don’t follow through on whatever they get worked up about this week. I don’t think the left has any lack of doing it’s own infighting, in fact we’re rather good at it. Posted by: loki at March 12, 2006 08:58 PM

loki, Could you please provide some examples of this?

It might be with a lot of heart ache but you can win them … let us hope that our moral fiber never decays so much in this country that we deem nothing worth standing up and fighting for it. Unfortunately, sometimes I think we’re very close to that sad, defeatist attitude.

Ken,

Advocating fighting a necessary war to defend ourselves, and only as long as it takes to restore stability is not a [*defeatist attitude]. Our moral fiber is determined by how much we value a human life. Is an American life more valuable than an Iraqi life? Was it necessary to decimate thousands in the name of a few wackjobs? It is easy to st back and act all holier than thou when you don’t have to see the death and destruction being waged in our collective name- The United States of America.

There is a time when it is worth standing up and fighting for it, and there is a time when it is worth standing up and fighting against it. When that time comes depends on our values.

Jack,

So if our soldiers are waterboarded, put in stress positions, or denied sleep you don’t feel that’s torture? Excuse me, but I think that’s quite unpatriotic of you.

Ken Brown,

Sorry I don’t have time to look it up right now, but if you seriously believe the Arab world feels positively about the United States then I don’t think you’ve been paying attention.

Unfortunately, sometimes I think we’re very close to that sad, defeatist attitude.

Ken,

Do you know what is sad? When you look at a war as something to win or lose, rather than by what good or bad it has done. We have accomplished both in Iraq, and we will not be able to classify a victory there as a “win.” The good we have done will lead us to an end, but the bad we have done will haunt us long after we have redeployed. You may call this a [*defeatist attitude], I call it looking at the situation realistically.

*Bushism

ron do really think so!he made the claim not me!

max, i think we all have been paying attention, other words you dont have the answer? for my question that i asked you?

Max

Soldiers who are in uniform and whose countries are signatories of the Geneva convention are different from terrorists and criminals targeting and hiding among civilian populations.

If the terrorist caught the equivelent (i.e. someone who had inflitrated their group by posing as one of them) I don’t expect they would keep him both a prisoner and alive at the same time.

In any case, do you seriously believe that an American soldier who fell into the hands of the terrorist would be treated with any concern at all?

Rodney,
I really don’t think either one of yaall can prove either way. But I would tend to lean toward that they are.
The Muslim religion teaches that anyone that’s not Muslim is to either subject gated or destroyed. Sense the US gives the freedom to choose what religion you do or do not practice they consider us an enemy. That would mean they’re fighting us.

ron i quess i am a dreamer. i would to think that the saber rattling was comparable to soviet bloc other words when the wall came down they were not so bad after all! i dont underestimate the hate there is enough of that on every side.

submarinesforever,

You are completely entitled to your opininion. I am entitled to mine. I happen to find abortion funny. I think it is amusing. I have gay friends, I love them, and if someone ever tried to, say, kill them, I would probably not be able to maintain my pacifist ways, if you get my meaning. The great thing about America is we all get to have our views. The other great thing is that the government is supposed to stay out of our lives unless it involves matters of public wellbeing, and all people are supposed to be treated equally. Thats the whole point. Now, things have changed a lot over the years, and of course the entire thing was done wrong from the start (slavery), but getting over that has made the importance of protecting minorities even more relevant. You are entitled to thinking that swearing and having sex with memebers of the same sex should be illegal. I get to make jokes about mandatory abortions and various other things that make me laugh. Posse Comatetus gets to think that eventually they will take power and push the “mud races” out of the country, and kill off the jews especially since they are somehow the offspring of satan, ushering in the final return of their lord and savior jesus christ. But what really matters is that there are laws saying, no matter who you are, who you have sex with, what your skin looks like, and what god you pray to/dont pray to, you get treated the same. Limited government is our system, the reason I can’t stand the liberalism that is the religious rights posturing is that it means killing all those wonderful freedoms in the name of a book none of you have ever read in its original language.

Go learn greek and hebrew, spend a few years going over the documents in their earliest surviving languages. Then interpret your beliefs from them. Until then, dont assume what you know is the word of G*d (apparantly he really doesnt like having his name written down, not sure why, but hey, who can know, he is, after all, more perfect than anything else. meaning his perfect sense of humor probably laughs at my hilarous dead fetus jokes)

love,
iandanger.

moving on….

JC, Buddy, WOOOOW:

“you cannot win a war by trying to maintain the political high ground. You win by killing more of them than they do of you. We certainly have the firepower all we need is the will to win which I am sorry to say is sorely lacking in our so called leaders. If the only way to gain info. is to torture then Im all for it.”

What you don’t realize, and I think this is one of our major problems, is that we aren’t at war.
This is not us against them. This is not the USA vs. Al Queda. This is the United States being subjected to a form of violent crime that has been common since the seventies and even before (anarchists used to bomb stuff all the time). A war is between two nations (and might I add a war isn’t even to attrition, it is usually until one side has enough strategic advantage to guarantee destruction of the other), terrorism is a method.

At best, we are actively pursuing Al Queda, this is really what most of our leaders talk about when they refference the “Global War on Terrorism.” You can’t stop terrorism after all, because anyone can commit an act of terrorism at any time. We supported contra armies in the eighties that fought against the sandinistas…by killing villagers until they voted the way the USA wanted them to. That is terrorism. Terror is possible by anyone, white black yellow red green or purple (but not orange, no, the orange people aren’t capable of it. bastards.) Rather, we are pursing Al Queda, but what is Al Queda. Al Queda is a loose network of affiliated organizations, operating independently, but out of solidarity networking to provide assistance to others and spread money around. This isn’t an army, this is a crime network connecting various gangs. Theyre very intellegent, very well educated, and very well funded. We are not going to simply kill them until they stop, there will always be more radicals to fight the fight, Israel has experienced this first hand, they have tried their hardest to simply kill their way through the leadership of every group that has attacked them, and the attacks never stop.

Fighting terrorism is much more complicated than blowing up buildings. And the torture comment, ask anyone who’s been there, torture just gets you useless information, because you can’t know if any of it is even remotely true.

I recomend you drink a cup of tea and think about this issue. It affects everyone. Okay? just calm down.

www.iandanger.com/blog

“I really don’t think either one of yaall can prove either way. But I would tend to lean toward that they are.
The Muslim religion teaches that anyone that’s not Muslim is to either subject gated or destroyed. Sense the US gives the freedom to choose what religion you do or do not practice they consider us an enemy. That would mean they’re fighting us.”

That is not what Islam teaches, this is a common misconception. The Koran is a continuation of the bible, both the old and new testaments. It specifically states that the fellow children of Abraham (jews, and through some majic of the process of folloing jesus, the christians) are not to be harmed. In actuality the Jews and the Muslims got on quite well till about 1948-50 when the british parititioned Arabia, the birthplace of Islam, into 21 bickering principalities, and then tried to sepparate the holy land into two states.

Islam is a peaceful religion, anyone telling you otherwise hasnt read much of the Koran, or is a nutjob like Osama. There is only one difference between Christians and Muslims, Christians believe Jesus died, was returned to life, and then was risen up to heaven someday to return. Muslims believe that jesus was tortured, but that he was not killed on the cross, rather god took him directly into heaven, someday to return.

question: Are people really killing each other about an event there is no dirrect evidence on? answer: yes.

Would god like this? I sure hope not.

Iandanger:

If what you say about Islam is true, who are the “infidels” I keep hearing that are to be killed?

And what event are people killing each other about? You lost me there.

Thanks.

iandanger thank you for your vast knowledge! another point the sephardim also did quite well under islam for hundreds and hundreds of years. until…..

“If what you say about Islam is true, who are the “infidels†I keep hearing that are to be killed?

And what event are people killing each other about? You lost me there.”

Islam is a religion of peace, anyone saying otherwise is basing their opinions on something other than the Koran, which has always been the problem with most religions. The Koran itself does not advocate killing nonbelievers or those who refuse to convert. Rather, the idea of killing infidels is a remnant of the crusades and those related conflicts. to quote the koran:

“Let there be no compulsion in religion: truth stands out clear from error.”
Quran 2:256

Many sects follow later texts, and believe in later prophets, but this isn’t really in line with the Koran’s general message. As it is, it is supposed to be the final and perfect religious text, so anything after it is not part of true Islam.

The event I was reffering to is the life, and more specifically the death/end of jesus christ’s time on earth. Since his death/whatever, jesus’ true nature has been hotly debated, and the problem with most of the religious groups is they defend their belief absolutely, while not basing it on anything more than selective reading of texts. No one was sure at first who Jesus was supposed to be, and the accounts of his crucifixion are so contradictory it is no wonder there are conflicts. What doesn’t change is that none of us can actually know for sure what happened out on that golgatha that fateful day, so why should be trust to blind faith, when it is not the word of God we are supposed to trust, but the word of men. People fighting and dying over whether or not Jesus was a man or part of a 3-fold godhead or was made godly through his suffering, and whether or not he actually died. I wouldn’t kill someone for not believing my take on what happened, because I am not sure I know any better than that person.

Its sad really what religion has come.

P.S. In case you were wondering I’m not a follower of a deist religion, I’m a Buddhist who reads far too much, and as such love talking about religion, even if sometimes what happens in the name of religion makes me cringe.

Iandanger:

Thanks for the info. I appreciate learning. So if I understand you correctly, they are killing each other over Jesus’ role? Is that from the later texts that you referred to?

Your take on this is very interesting. And I agree, it also makes me cringe what people are capable of in the name of religion.

iandanger:

I must say you are the most impressive blogger I have seen here since I joined. Clearly a superior debater and logical to a fault.

However, you’re reasonable and rational way of thinking has now doomed you to being eternally ignored by the Red Column here. I am afraid such is the way of coherent arguments in Bushie Land.

Well, I would say most of the killing is done in the name of conversion, which isnt supported in the major religious works. The point is that these sects (jews, christians of various denominations that have fought each other as often as the others, and muslims) all worship the same God. They all feel compelled by the same faith, but the fact that they would kill another person for believing something different is absurd to me, because the differences are usually that of interpretation, meaning that neither can actually say whether they are right. faith in God is one thing, and an essential thing to these religions, but faith in something which is unclear is at best tenuous, and at worst leads to inappropriate conflict.

In the case of Islam, the Sunnah is a later book intended to fit in with the teachings of the Koran and suplement them, but the problem is of course that the Koran is supposed to be complete in and of itself. My point about later books, later works, etc, is that people always come along and try and tell others what the word of God REALLY is, but the point of the main religious works is that you must go to them and take your own understanding, not someone elses. It is easy to take a copy of the Koran and pull out sentences and make it sound like a work of terrorism, but that doesnt mean these individual passages represent the work as a whole, since the interpretations usually pull things out of context.

The problem is really the mixing of the pure intent of the original work (if there is such a thing) with the misguided intentions of individuals.

“iandanger:

I must say you are the most impressive blogger I have seen here since I joined. Clearly a superior debater and logical to a fault.

However, you’re reasonable and rational way of thinking has now doomed you to being eternally ignored by the Red Column here. I am afraid such is the way of coherent arguments in Bushie Land.”

Thank you very much for the compliment. I’ve noticed some of my points getting washed over, but I do hope that from time to time someone will engage my points. Certainly there is little point to practicing one’s rhetorical skills if all you ever do is offer a first rebuttal. I hope there are a few here that are willing to forgo some of the yelling back and forth and engage in serious discusion of the issues at hand.

iandanger

Loki and Iandanger:

Thanks for not just the words yall(I said Southern Baptist lol)and the tone in which it was delivered. I am sorry that I dont have the time now to reply to you in depth, I must get ready for work. But please check back this evening. I found both to be respectful and full of insight. Thanx.

Rodney

Re our former communist enemies.

We should make a distinction in this hate thing. I hated communism and the Soviet Union, but that didn’t extend to the people of the countries involved (some of whom were my relatives) or even to all those who were the fervent proponents of the system (some of whom were admirable as individuals).

We should hate what terrorist do and since terrorism is a choice, there is nothing wrong with hating the practitioners as long as they are doing it. It does not mean you hate people nearby or those who look like the bad guys.

The inablility to make a distinction is wrong. If you don’t hate terrorist, you probably are misguided. If you hate others because they are associated culturally with them, you are wrong.

The ordinary people of communist countries were the biggest victims of that bankrupt and evil ideology. Similarly, the ordinary Muslims are the biggest victims of radical Islam. If you count up the dead and injured in both those cases that much is clear.

It would be good if we AND they remembered that.

Actually, The Christians have been more violent, and killed more people in the name of G-d than any other religious group. This is not mu opinion, it is a fact. Look at their history, Christians are more intolerant, racist and violent than Islam has been. Islam is just getting the focus today becuase they are currently practicing what Christians do in the not so distant past.

Aldous posted

“Speak for yourself, wingnut. Liberals are not the ones trying to ban this and ban that. Liberals are not the ones trying to turn America into one happy white christian theocracy.

To be a Liberal is to respect an individual’s rights”

Your post was filled with so much respect for free speech I am overwhelmed. As for the banning comment, you neo-libs are banning stuff all the time. I’m not a wingnut I’m a bolt. I think wingnut would have to be reserved for you.

Jay Jay posted

“You are free to believe what you wish, but please have respect and allow others their beliefs. You cannot prove that your beliefs are correct anymore than you can prove mine are incorrect”

You finally understand, see if you can apply the lesson.

JayJay,

Please point out in my previous puost where I said war should be used as a first defense or anything but a last defense. I don’t believe I said anything close to that. Arguing some point you can win but not the point at hand, out of all the debating tactics, that’s certainly one of them.

But you said, “wars” as a last defense or anything else I guess since you offered no qualifiers, were not winnable. That’s just patently untrue and that’s all I was pointing out.

jc,

“Max you cannot win a war by trying to maintain the political high ground. You win by killing more of them than they do of you.”

Posted by: jc at March 12, 2006 03:38 PM
Really? Bodycount is the litmus test? I’m pretty sure that’s not true. The South lost the Civil war and the US lost Vietnam despite “killing more of them than they do of you.” (Oh, and the Brits won Bunker hill despite losing over twice as many men as we did.) Killing your opponent is a by-product of working toward an objective; even when it seems that the killing IS the objective.

Isn’t this supposed to be about Wafa Sultan?

It will be interesting to see how long before someone jumps on this, and I’m not looking for a fight, just adding a personal thought. I have always had mixed ideas about religions in general, but Christianity being the one I was most exposed to. Around the age of 8 or 9, my uncle was studying the ministry and would come to our house nearly every night to share what he had learned that day, and for months on end, he would open the bible and dicuss at length. In case you can’t remember back that far, or don’t have that many years to remember back to….a couple of hours nightly being forced to listen to a subject not at all appealing to an 8 year old, can leave scars. What did stick with me was the idea that the bible , for all intents and purposes, is merely a history book, and as such has been interpreted, misinterpreted, edited, written and re-written more times than could be counted. So, how do we know whose words are published now ?? Then there is the fact that most organized religions want you to believe that they are the best….will be the only saved peoples when life ends. Even the different “branches” within Christianity argue and fight..Catholic, Latter Day Saints, and to the Evangelical and “born agains”.
So, I’ll have mercy on all and end this by saying that what I find gives me strength and hope is that there is some force beyond humanity that can give comfort and try to live my life without causing pain to others and treating them like I would want to be treated.

Sandra,

I think you have it right. We also need to remember that it is not G-d who is the monster, it is the religion, it’s leaders, and in the end it’s followers who can be.
Personnaly I like the Talmudic approach. Only G-d knows, we can only do our best at figuring it out. First you talk, then you debate, maybe you argue, but then you eat: together!

Thanks Dave, for not making your response an attack.
It’s scary to come into this blog site and find the two most taboo subjects up for discussion…..politics and religion. Good job……

“First you talk, then you debate, maybe you argue, but then you eat: together!”

Ah, diplomacy.

What ever happened to shoot first and let God sort them out?

Jack and Rodney,

I am working, so I just did a really lazy Google news search. It’s not hard to turn up links. All other nations except ours classify what we do as torture, so again Jack, it’s just you and Bush that think it’s not. Saying terrorists are different from nations and nations are different because of their civilized behavior and that lets us torture them is a pretty circular argument.

Half the US troops say it’s time to come home:
http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/article_2469.shtml

World agrees Iraq war increased terrorism:
http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID=%7B3560D04C-9ED4-474B-B5D5-46D7576B0A36%7D&language=EN

More Arabs hate Americans than ever before:
http://www.worldpress.org/1101arabpress_joel.htm

Everyone classifies our techniques, borrowed from the facist nations who used them, not because they were soft but because they were the most direct path to breaking the subject, torture. Every nation. Everyone but Bushies.

Only Bushies could decry in others what they do as a matter of policy. You stood up and said we should torture people, so stand behind it, don’t weasel out and say it’s not torture. Stop flip flopping.

“Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them.â€

You are kidding right? To infer that people of the Islamic faith are the only ones that Kill, burn and murder in the name of their faith is ludicrous and only shows a level of ignorance that is shameful.

It is obvious this person doesn’t have a clue to the vast numbers of Muslims or Jews murdered by Christians. The Christian body counts over the last 2,000 years are in the tens of millions. They make Adolph Hitler look like an amateur.

Have you ever heard of the term “Host Nailing”? It is a practice that was fabricated by the Catholic Church as an excuse to murder Jews.

In 1298, 628 Jews were killed in Nuremberg after host-nailing rumors spread. That same year, Bavarian knight Rindfleisch exterminated 146 Jewish communities in just six months. In 1337, the entire Jewish population of Deggendorf, Bavaria, was burned after stories of host-nailing became popular. In 1370, nearly all Belgian Jews were killed after someone in Brussels reported seeing a Jew break a communion wafer. Even as late as 1761, Jews were executed in Nancy, France, based upon similar allegations.

Take a read of the book Holy Horrors After reading this I have found that no religion has gone without blood on its hands in it’s God(s) name(s). I have to admit though that the Catholic Church does have the body count market cornered.

Adolf Hitler murdered 6 million Jews - Pope Pious the II - 36 million Jews murdered - and he is a Saint!

Ever hear of the phrase - “Kill them All and let god sort them out.” A lot of you would think that one was invented by the U.S. Marine Corps.

You would be wrong. In 1210 AD, Pope Innocent III unleashed “orders of fire and sword” against a group of heretics throughout Europe, mostly remembered as Cathars. Of special note, at the great city of Beziers, France there was a terrible massacre of heretics. Though the actual count will never be known, it is thought that perhaps 100,000 people were ultimately slaughtered. The soldiers asked the Pope how can we tell the Catholics from the Heretics? We can not tell one from another by their clothing or their faces. If we ask the heretics they will only lie to save their lives. the Pope answered with the phrase in Latin, “Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoset” or “Kill them all. God will know His own.”

After a lot of reading one common thread emerges when you review Catholic Saints - there is a huge body count often associated with them. If you don’t believe me - go to a library and start reading. The one thing the Catholic church has been consistent in ever since it was legitimized in Rome - record keeping. The Catholic church has been obsessed with keeping verbose and accurate records. They documented nearly every single soul that was “saved†during the inquisitions, including their testimonies and confessions.

Then as a closing and somber thought about how recent the atrocities go take a look at the connection between the Nazi’s and the Catholic Church: http://www.tenc.net/vatican/cpix.htm

I personally have nothing against religion and I believe that the individual people that follow religion and have religious beliefs are genuinely good people. But the people of all faiths need to be aware of the dark past their religions have had, acknowledge the misdeeds of others and make certain that these things never happen again. I also think it is time that the Catholic church take a lead role in this by removing the saint hood of mass murderers, posthumously excommunicate them and acknowledge the horrors these evil people perpetrated in the name of the church and start leading by example by showing the people that evil is wrong, especially when it is in the name of God.

The Muslims did not invent religious Violence – they are relative new comers to this when compared to Christianity nd other older faiths.

“I want people to WANT to believe what I believe, I don’t think legislation forcing them to act on my beliefs is the way to go”

Do you apply this same logic to:
taxes?
guns?
healthcare?
state funded abortions?
welfare?
death penalty?
etc…

Kctim:

No, in my post I thought it was obvious that I was referring to religious beliefs. Sorry you missed that.

Whats the difference? Both are beliefs.

iandanger
The Koran ISNOT a continuation of the Bible. It has ABSOLUTLY NOTHING in common with the Bible. The Koran was written by a man and nothing to do with God and is not inspired by him. God used men to write the Bible but every word of it is inspired by him.
The difference between Muslims and Christians is a lot more that if Jesus died or not. The Muslims deny he is the son of God and is God. The Christian believe both of these. The Muslims say he was a good man and a prophet. They deny his deity. The Christian faith, and it’s a faith not a religion, doesn’t teach killing anyone that doesn’t believe the way we do. The Muslim religion does. Even if you and other liberals want to deny it.
If the Muslim religion doesn’t teach to kill those that don’t agree with you, then why is it that the different Muslim sects are killing each other? And if they do that to each other, what makes you think that they won’t and aren’t wanting to do the same with us?
The Muslims are not the peaceful folks that the liberal media wants to make out like they are.

On the subject of religion, GOD, etc.

I try to obey the scripture verse in:
Ecclesiastes 12:12-13

It goes like this from the KJV translation:

“And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.”

tom,

Why should I fear G-d?

Max

Everyone but us? Once again, we are including paragons of virtue like Iran (which hangs homosexuals) or N. Korea that kills opposition and where putting someone is a prison camp is less scary, since the whole country is already a big prison camp.

I go with my original idea that anything you might experience in a trans Atlantic flight is not torture. Rocky points out that it is even worse when you cross the Pacific.

The other point is that people clearly are not afraid of the U.S. as they were of real bad guys. You write with no fear of consequences. YOu are right. Would you dare write such things in any real dictatorship?

Re the poll, I was reading about that today. There were questions the implied either we should stay forever or make specific pull outs. Nobody wants to stay forever. The President has said that too.

Returning to the orginal post - think of this woman. She speaks out about this subject. She lives in the U.S. All of us are wondering if she will be killed for speaking out and wondering if people will reach out from the Middle East to do that. Everyday people all over the world speak out against George Bush. Nobody really thinks they are in danger. That is the difference between our contrived academic “fear” and a real one.

It is easy to take a copy of the Koran and pull out sentences and make it sound like a work of terrorism, but that doesnt mean these individual passages represent the work as a whole, since the interpretations usually pull things out of context.

Sounds a lot like what Christians do to justify their hate of homosexuals.

Please point out in my previous puost where I said war should be used as a first defense or anything but a last defense. I don’t believe I said anything close to that.

Ken,

Please do not put words in my mouth. I never said that you said that. What I said about war being a last resort was part of my opinion of war. I never accused you of saying that war should be a first resort, not even close. You are reading more into it than what is there.

It is obviously going right over your head what I am saying about war not being a win or lose situation. I am not sure what I can say to make you understand. We can declare victory and call it a win, but what have we won in the end? We have won the deaths of thousands of innocent human lives. I personally do not call the lose of innocent human life a win. IMO, War should always be out of necessity, never a game to be won or lost. IMO, the Iraq war was not a war of necessity. We can win a war physically, but have we won the war morally, spiritually, of conscious, emotionally? When death of innocent lives is at stake, I believe that it is wrong on our values level to call it a win. Doing so erodes our moral fiber of going to war in the first place and makes it into a war game where the score is kept by the body count, as jc seems to advocate.

Fair question Dave. I would like to ask a similar one.

Tomh, I ask these not to bash, but for a better understanding. Thank you for your time.

Why should I fear YOUR God?
And if I do not, why should it matter to you?

“The Koran ISNOT a continuation of the Bible. It has ABSOLUTLY NOTHING in common with the Bible.”

Ron, do you actually know this to be true, have you actually looked into the Koran? Jesus is extremely important, and much of the Koran deals with further expounding on the works of the appostles, especially the book of revelations. Pick up an english translation, give it a read, the Koran is the final revelations of God, handed down to Mohammad, the last of the succession of prophets, which includes Jesus and Moses.

They also believe that Jesus will return to earth to usher in the kingdom of God.

You brought up something that I find rather important, the reason the different sects of Muslims fight each other is because they are following different apocryphal texts that the Koran specifically rejects.

Islam does not preach killing under any circumstances. This is a big problem, because people assume the actions of a few reflect the actual words of the religion. The Koran is a very very clear book, and it is the final word on all issues concerning Islam, if you have an issue with something someone does, and it is not in the Koran, then the action is not Islam.

And Jesus’ divinity was not agreed upon by christians either until Nicea, when one set doctrine was established, and all the others were persecuted out of existence. There is a reason the Unitarian Universalist church exists.

When I talk about religion, I don’t speak as a liberal or a conservative. Religion is a purely independent and accademic pursuit for me.

I wouldn’t disagree that there are a lot of Muslims who are not practicing as the Koran instructs, but the same is true for every religion. I work at a restaurant that sells meat, according to my religion I am not allowed to profit from the suffering of any being, that includes living off of other people’s desire for meat. Does that reflect on Buddhism, or my own character?

iandanger.

Kctim:

Taxes is a belief?

womanmarine
How they are collected and what they are used for are based solely on beliefs.

Kctim:

I understand that. I am quite familiar with your feelings on these matters, I have read your posts. I suspect you know the difference I was referring to, and will leave you to them.

womanmarine
Why don’t you guys like to answer that question?
Is it because the answer contradicts your whole argument on rights and freedom of choice?
If you can expect people to accept and finance what you believe is for the best of society, why is it wrong for others to feel the same way?
How can you condemn religion for pushing its beliefs onto others, when you, yourself, are guilty of doing the exact same thing?

Its cool though. I dont expect ANY of you to finally answer the question but that doesnt mean I’m going to quit asking for an answer.

JACK, i agree with you. i do hate what they did i also hate what they are doing today! the muslims. i hated what the soviets did. i hated what the nazis did. hell the nazis killed half of my mothers family in holland. my father was a ww2 vet. my point was that it is the leaders of these people that create most of the hate. i dont believe that 90% of arab peoples hate us. yes unfortinally a very la