Republicans & Conservatives: Archives

Dawn,

When you said:

Abortion needs to be removed from Politics. Period. It should be an issue that is between a woman, her family, her doctor, and her God.

I could not agree more.

Do a bunch of men (Congress, Legislature, etc.) think that they can actually tell a woman what she can and can not do with her body?

In theory, yes. In practical application, no.

The only time…the ONLY time a man has a say-so in the abortion debate is when he is about to unzip his pants.

If he zips his pants back up and goes home, he is against abortion.

If he unzips his pants and has a good time, he is for abortion.

What he doesn’t realize is that once he unzips his pants, he gives up all his rights. The right to decide whether or not the child will be born…the right to be an influential part of that child’s life…the right to keep a good portion of his paycheck for the next 18 years (more if the child goes to college).

Dawn, you are exactly right in excluding men in your description of the abortion debate…because no matter what we say or what we do (other than duct-taping a woman to a chair for 9 months), the final decision is up to “a woman, her family, her doctor, and her God”.
And a man…at that point…has absolutely no voice in the decision.

Remember, guys,

“zip your pants”…pro-life.
“unzip your pants”…pro-choice.

Jim T,
I dont know of any anti abortion rallies where it’s the biological dad leading the protest. So your solution is not that helpful.

Me, I have no solution. Maybe it should outlawed for a while to see how it goes. Prohibition didn’t turn out like it’s supporters intended. I suspect this wouldn’t either - but we probably need to find that out.

zip your pants…pro-life
unzip your pants…pro-choice

That’s just silly. Try “take responsibility for your actions”-period

Men should have a voice in the decision. They are as instrumental in creating life as women. They are also held responsible for that life.

The thing people forget in their self centered arguments about abortion is that it isn’t a question of whether or not a woman has a right to decide what to do with her body. It’s a question of whether or not she has a right to kill another human being. This decision is often made because the child is inconvenient. That’s murder.

steve,

“It’s a question of whether or not she has a right to kill another human being. This decision is often made because the child is inconvenient. That’s murder.”

This debate brings out the scientist in all of us.

Well it is about time at last commen sense.
But the Alito is out of the bag and now we
will be forced to visit and reviset this
time and time again.

Dawn and Jim. The zip for Pro life should
have been the Slogan all along.

Now can some one tell me why some Republicans
are trying to Force a Designated State Religion
down Missouri Throats.
Seperation of Church and State?
Freedom of Religion?
Will Jews and Buddist and Atheist not
be allowed to live there. Or not have
rights if they do?
Is this not alot like Iraq?
your this you live there.
Your that you live over there.
If Missiouri becomes the Christian State
Does that mean every state must pick a religion?
To go with there flag and flower.

Isnt it time we keep our religion to our self
and our goverment working on Goverment issues.

Abortion always should have been a state by state issue. Some states are more conservative and some states are more liberal on this matter. Then you live in a state that suits your choice. By the way, if the girl keeps her pants zipped there might not be many problems on this matter either. (Sorry - just couldn’t resist).

It should be left up to the states and its people on whether abortion is legal there or not.
Cali has no business telling S. Dakota what to do and S. Dakota has no business telling Cali what to do.

“the final decision is up to “a woman, her family, her doctor, and her God‎.
And a man…at that point…has absolutely no voice in the decision”

Amen Jim. The man has no voice or choice in the matter at all. Its only about the woman. Well, only about the woman until the man is forced to financially pay for the woman’s “choice.”

Honey
I’m an atheist who lives in Missouri. Could you share how they are creating a state religion?

found this on google about Missouri State Religion:
link to Missouri State Religion Bill

Schwamp,

I dont know of any anti abortion rallies where it’s the biological dad leading the protest.

No…they’re hiding out, hoping not to get thrown in jail for non payment of child support…all because—-what?—-THEY DIDN’T ZIP THEIR PANTS AND GO HOME.

Steve,

zip your pants…pro-life
unzip your pants…pro-choice

That’s just silly. Try “take responsibility for your actions‎-period

Yeah…taking responsibility is called “Zip your pants and go home” —-or—- “unzip your pants and accept that you are giving up all your parental rights forever…and most of your paycheck for the next 18 years.

Silly? Zipping your pants? Silly? No, it’s called “taking responsibility”.

Men should have a voice in the decision.

And there’s the stark difference between us.

There “should” be no world hunger.
But there is.

There “should” be world peace.
But there isn’t.

There “should” be a human colony on Mars.
But there’s not.

Men “should” have a voice in the decision.
But they don’t…and never will.

KCTIM
2 Republicans have taken it to Jeffcity
and the Governor has said he will sign
the bill makeing Christianity the official
Missouri State Religion. How dumb is this
next we will have a Catholic State a Babtist
State a Jewish state on and on.

Politicians and special interests groups know what is best for you. Stop trying to argue.

Thanks Reed
I was glad to see it was just a resolution. Resolutions state an opinion and are not legally binding.
If they tried to establish Christianity as the only legal religion in the state, and that passed, that would be a serious violation of the Constitution.

Honey, thank you too for bringing this to my attention. But I’m afraid you have jumped the gun some. Its just a resolution by a religious person and won’t go anywhere.
Although the Constitution doesn’t mention anything about “seperation of church and state,” it is very clear about the “establishment” of a religion.
One lone persons opinion has done nothing to change this great state.

Dawn,

please add Mississippi to the discussion, which is working on a ban as well, though with the rape and incest exception. And let’s not forget the other states which are contemplating outright bans.

I don’t believe you can remove abortion from politics because there are too many people committed to making it illegal. This SD law was nothing but political, written to put it in perfect opposition to Roe.

Incrementalism favored the GOP (attacking Roe one little step at a time), so I am sure party leaders are quite worried about this. Leaders such as Ken Mehlman can no longer play both sides of the abortion fence(his RNC co-chair, JoAnn Davidson, is pro-choice).

I think Republicans will find it impossible to convince those pro-choice people (Rep, Ind or Dem) who voted with them in 2004 (and possibly 2000) that the main party platform wasn’t all about overturning Roe.

The GOP made this bed. They have positioned Democrats as baby killers for the last two decades.

The GOP cannot suddenly say “oops - when we put banning abortion on the party platform, we just meant it as a strategy to make sure you voted against Democrats;, we did not want anyone to actually try to ban abortion”.

It’s laughable. Having just made the biggest political blunder under this administration’s tenure, many Republicans now want to remove the abortion debate from the political arena.

No chance.

I fought a dead beat dad for 18 years
My son was concieved in the marrage bed.
Zip your pants and go home is the only
answer that makes sence. When it comes to
the matter of who is going to step up and take care of a child.
The female is to Often left
holding the Major portion of the responsability.
Would I have turned to abortion no way. But
in talking with my now 21 year old son.
He states this. My Father was never a father.
When I decide to have kids I will be there
for them. He also goes on to state to many
of his friends play the love card for sex.
Then turn away from Responsability. He
knows of only one female who got a abortion
that was due to health issues. He no longer
speaks to the one time friend who abandoned
her. That is the Kind of morals that will
reduce Abortions. The rest is Politics.

I wish the Supremes do ban abortion again. Since the South has the highest single mothers ratio anywhere, it would be funny to see the consequences of this law.

The answer once & for all is money. We have a multi-billion dollar business who lobbys politicians to keep their doors open. I agree that a women has a right to make decisions about her own body, but she does not have the right to make decisions for somebody else…the child she has conceived. It has become a convenient method of birth control. Wake up & smell the coffee! Try birth control, try keeping your legs together and finally accept some personal responsibility. The woman is NOT the victim unless she has been raped or abused.

We are outraged when someone kills a pregnant woman (i.e. Lacy Peterson), yet there is very little outrage about a pregnant woman killing her pregnancy/baby.

Let’s face it - I.A.A.T.M.S. It’s All About The Money Stupid!!

In all this silliness, who is standing up for the rights of the child? All I hear from pro-choice advocates is the constant “rights of the woman”. But they never suggest a solution regarding the rights of that unborn child.
Unborn—-I guess that’s the key here, to them. But it’s not rational.

A seed, planted in the ground, begins to grow underneath the earth. Eventually it sprouts through the top of the earth and becomes a flower or a tree. But it was LIVING while it was still under the earth, just waiting to enter our view. Same applies to a child. The child may be inside it’s mothers womb and physically out of our sight, but it is still a LIVING and growing being and will, if left be, sprout from the earth and become a boy or girl.

How about the argument presented that the fetus cannot survive on its’ own? The seed cannot either. It needs nutrients and water from Mother Earth in order to eventually sprout. Even after becoming a flower or tree, it is still dependent on it’s Mother for survival. Try cutting a tree down at its’ base and see how long the top portion “lives” without being attached to Mother Earth. It won’t. It too will die.
There is no rational or logical argument for commitmitting murder. Abortion, whether you like it or not, is murder. It is the killing of a living being. Nuff said.

Honey,

about one quarter to one third of this country believes that abortion should be absolutely, unconditionally illegal. This group has consistently voted Republican since the outlawing of abortion was made part of the RNC platform.

How could this issue ever stop being political without Republicans first removing it from their party platform?

Jim T.
You sound as if the woman has no say in the matter. SHE also has the CHOICE to say NO. Once THEY create a life then THEY have given up THEIR rights. Just because I find Jim T. inconvenient to my lifestyle, I don’t have CHOICE to kill him. Once a life is created, it is no longer simply the woman’s body, she has another LIFE to consider. And don’t tell me it’s not a LIFE until some unspecified later date. If you feel that way, I say…PROVE IT.

As for the man having no role. The liberal “emasculated” male you dream of does not exist in real life. I was involved every step of the way when my wife was pregnant with my son. She did all the hard work, there is no doubt, but I was not just a distant spectator. The courts seem to agree. They have ruled that men are responsible for supporting women they impregnate, and the children they bear. If a man kills a pregnant woman in many states he is charged with TWO counts of murder, one for the woman and one for the baby. BTW, have you been to any “Fetus Showers” lately? Thought not.

Men & Women + Once you CHOOSE to have sex, you give up your CHOICE to “party on” without the “burden” of a child. It may not sound fun, but that is the way GOD or even Nature for all you Pagans, designed it.

As for South Dakota, the Constitution is SILENT on abortion, only because the Founding Fathers could not imagine we would ever be capable of such barbarism. When the Constitution is silent on a subject, it is left to the states to decide for themselves. South Dakota simply ignored penumbras and shadows, and followed the Constitution.

That’s just silly. Try “take responsibility for your actions‎-period

RIGHT ON STEVE!

I’ve caught hell for saying this before and I know I’ll catch hell for it again.
Once a women gets pregnant she gives up control over that part of her body. She has a human life inside her that has just as much right to live as she does. Killing that life is just plain murder.
If a woman doesnt want children she ought to try keeping her legs together.
I also agree that men should keep their zippers up if they don’t want babies.

I’m sure nobody will agree, but if you leave religion out of the question, then the issue is changed a little bit.

A mass of cells that does not have a brain, that does not have nerves, that cannot think or feel pain, is just a mass of cells. It has the potential to become a baby, to become a viable human life, but it may or may not.

When this mass of cells has developed human characteristics, that is the time under law to start recognizing it as a human and to provide it with more protections.

Keep your religious rantings and mischaracterizations to yourself. Your religion is for you, not for forcing your viewpoint on those that don’t share that belief. I am free to have different beliefs and live my life accordingly.

A reasonable law will be forced to examine when a mass of cells develops human characteristics.

Finally, all the talk of responsibility is simply a red herring. As much as we’d like other people to behave in certain ways, whether through or responsibility or otherwise, it is not the place of the government to act as our parent or nanny.

Laws are created to protect society or people from negatives. People, once they achieve the status of a person, inherit a lot of rights. The real issues is when does a foetus develop far enough to acquire rights of it’s own.

David C.,

Yes, the woman in this situation does have a choice. And after sex, she gets another choice (abortion or keep the child). And after that decision…she gets another choice (Involve the dad or not). And then she gets another choice (spend the money to track down the deadbeat dad or go on welfare or work).

What I’m stating is that the ONLY time a MAN really has a choice is when it’s time to have…or not have…sex. After that point in time, his opinions, his desires, his thoughts…all become completely and totally superflous.

That’s why I agree so strongly with Dawn. The abortion debate should not include men or their opinions…laws, bylaws or Constitutional Amendments. This debate is solely “…between a woman, her family, her doctor, and her God.”

tilthen,

I heard an interesting argument recently and I’m curious what your response would be. If a clinic were on fire and you had to choose between saving a petri dish with 10 fertilized eggs, ten young, unborn children in your example, or saving a 2 year old child, which would you choose?

The thing that I find amazingly hypocritical about the conservatives position on abortion is the exceptions they put in. Someone who thinks that “all” abortions should be outlawed, regardless of circumstances, is at least consistent. I may not agree, but at least they are consistent. But there are so many that put in these exceptions. Let’s outlaw abortion except when the mothers life is in danger, or except in a case of rape or incest. So if aborting a baby is murder, it’s ok to murder the unborn baby to save the mothers life? it’s ok to take a life to save a life? I just find it so amazingly hypocritical. Come on, if you believe that that glob of cells is a little baby playing pattycake with it’s placenta, than stand up for what you believe. Get a back bone.

Now, I realize that a lot of these spineless republicans add in these exceptions because of pressure from the left. Why is that? Because they will never get an outright ban on abortion through. A majority of the public wouldn’t accept that. Why? Because a majority of the public isn’t as anti-abortion as the right would have us believe. Yes, they are against abortion, they’d like to see alternatives, but they’re not so opposed to it that they would accept a complete ban, despite how the small percentage of hard core christian conservatives have vilified it over the years.

As for me, I agree with other remarks in this post. It should be between the woman, the man, family, doctor, priest, etc…, but ultimately it’s got to be the woman’s decision. I think society would be far better off to educate people, educate about contraception, educate about sex, educate about alternatives to abortion, than to have a bunch of young girls dieing of blood loss through self-administered abortions.

For all those who believe that abortion is murder, I pose a hypothetical question: You are
standing in a fertility clinic when a fire breaks
out. Also there, is a two year old child and a
petri dish containing five fertilized eggs. You
have only enough time to save either the two
year old child or the petri dish containing five
“human beings.” Which do you save? The one
human being or the five human beings?
Another question. If you so believe that a
fertilized egg is a human being, why aren’t you
also advocating the outlawing of the pill,
which basically just prevents a fertilized egg
from attaching itself to the uterus?

vegetable,

‘A mass of cells that does not have a brain, that does not have nerves, that cannot think or feel pain, is just a mass of cells. It has the potential to become a baby, to become a viable human life, but it may or may not.’

Isn’t that a view as to how life as we know it began?

Grant
You’re off base boy. First of all, I’d do everything possible to save all I could.
Secondly, I did not list any exceptions. You should strive to read and understand better. Abortion is murder, regardless of circumstances. There are no exceptions.

Why is it you can’t see? Because you are blind to reality? NO. Because you choose not to!

“Keep your religious rantings and mischaracterizations to yourself”

Not all people against abortion are religious. The left making religion the issue is nothing but their attempt to derail the fact that abortion is the killing of another lifeform.

“Your religion is for you, not for forcing your viewpoint on those that don’t share that belief. I am free to have different beliefs and live my life accordingly”

Do you believe in social programs that help the poor or whatever? Do you believe it is fair to tax people in order to fund those programs?
If I don’t give a rats ass about poor people, but you believe I should still be taxed to support them, are you not forcing your viewpoint onto others?
Should I not be free to have different beliefs than you and live my life accordingly?
You want to be left alone, well so do I.

First of all, I’d do everything possible to save all I could.

Way to avoid my question.

The rest of my statement wasn’t directed just for you, it was for the right in general. I never said you specifically allowed any exceptions. Perhaps I should have clarified that. My appologies.

My points still stand though.

Dawn:

“It should be an issue that is between a woman, her family, her doctor, and her God.”

I agree. Nobody in government should have anything to say about it. This is the liberal, Democratic point of view.

I’m glad to see your eyes opening up to this Republican fraud. I hope one of these days you will be writing for the Democratic column.

To diehard Pro Life people
Try some science look up what per cent
of a females normal cycles pass fertilized eggs.

Dawn,

I agree with you, but I don’t think God has anything to do with it, since i doubt there is one.

V. Edward

The fetus is not “part” of a woman’s body. It is a separate and distict life that depends on the mother to bilogically survive. This fact does not change upon birth. A baby still needs their mother to care for them and feed them. However, the law says it is okay to kill before the due date and not after. It makes no logical or spiritual sense.

To the Men (and everyone else,

I keep reading prejudicial & hateful posts and it occurs to me that everyone is missing the point. ALL life is sacred…perhaps you would feel differently if your wife/girlfriend/one-night stand became pregnant with YOUR child…YOUR child. It is no longer a hypothetical argument, but an unborn child that pulls at your heartstrings. Take it from someone who knows…you (man or woman) will think about the baby you aborted the rest of your lives. It rips your heart out…

QUESTION: Why is it that when a baby is an inconvience, it is just a mass of cells - but when the baby is wanted, it is a baby from conception?

Whatever your opinions of abortion are this South Dakota law is a gift to the Pro-choice side. As I understand it, this law is increadably extreme. I predict the Supreme Court will Unanimously strike it down.

What do you think all the people who voted for Bush because he would appoint judges who would ban abortion will do when they see that republicans just use pro-life to get people to vote for them regardless of whatever they do to the nation?

Dear V. Edward,

If you meet me and forget me, you lose nothing. But if you meet Jesus and forget Him, you lose everything.

What if at the end of this life, you discover the God is very real. It’s too late when you’re dead.

Whether you know Him or not isn’t the question, because He knows & loves you today as much as He did when you were born.

I was a baby born out-of-wedlock and everyday, I thank God and my parents that they chose Life. Otherwise, I wouldn’t be able to talk to all you fine people.

What is the penalty for a woman who has an abortion?

What is the penalty for a woman who has an abortion?

phx8,

That’s the interesting thing, it sounds as if the only penalty regards the doctor that performs the abortion, it doesn’t sound like there is a penalty for the woman. If getting an abortion is murder, then shouldn’t the woman be penalized as well? If she causes her own abortion, should she be tried as a murderer?

What I find amusing is that South Dakota rated Abortion as a Class 5 Felony. This is far different from a Class 1 Felony which is murder.

If the Repugs believed a fetus is a baby, then the penalty should equivalent to that of murdering a baby, instead of double-parking.

Vegetable,
I can’t say I disagree with your screen name. As for the “inviolate mass of tissue cells” that aren’t life but could become life at a later date, WHEN does that happen? I would like to know exactly what day during the pregnancy that occurs. If we don’t know for sure, then the answer COULD be DAY ONE. When in doubt, let’s err on the side of life. It’s quite easy not to get pregnant, and killing babies just so people can keep screwing seems beneath us, don’t you think?

I believe abortion is wrong, but:

1)Exceptions should be made in cases of rape, incest, and health of the mother;

2)We should do our best to get public sympathy behind our position in the process of outlawing it, and

3)We should not compromise the important constitutional right to medical privacy in order to outlaw it. Such would create the precedent for forced abortions and sterilization.

All that said, in a nation where the outlawing of abortion does not seriously seem to be in the cards, we should try non-coercive methods to promote a decline in abortion. We should encourage putting up unwanted children for adoption, and on the other end of things, encourage the adoption of children by parents. Christians would be well advised to do this, if they oppose abortion.

We should practice more forgiveness of those put into difficult positions by pregnancy. Not that we should celebrate it. It’s clearly not the best course of action, most of the time. We just shouldn’t get in the way of a person redeeming the situation. We should learn to swallow what anger we may feel, and arrange for the child to be raised amongst their family, or adopted when the time comes, and not burden the people involved with our wrath.

Additionally, I want to address something else here that I believe: I think abortion and other religious conservative pet peeves have superceded much of what one could consider religious values in politics today.

Some Religious conservatives today call out the name of Jesus while they legislate laws that better suit the attitudes of Ayn Rand. They worship the market, and look the other way as their allies in the private sector lie, cheat, steal, and even kill with their policies. The disconnect is one reason why your average American views political religion with considerable skepticism. A unwavering belief in God is not synonymous with an unwavering belief in the justice of the free market.

I can’t help but feel that the God, Guns, and Gays formula has done more to undermine real masculinity, sensible gun ownership, and Christian behavior and thought than it’s done to preserve it.

Jim T,
We do not get to choose to kill people Jim. That is one of the agreements we have as a society. I can’t choose to kill you, and vice versa. Killing babies is no different. Killing is not a choice. If it were then anyone could kill anyone for any reason. Or no reason. You can see this practice in action right now. Just check out the Sudan. A very nice Muslim country in Africa. I’m suprised more liberals don’t vacation there, since you have so much in common with them.

David,

We do not get to choose to kill people Jim.

We kill people all the time. Left, right, democrats, republicans. We all rationalize unnaturally ending life in one way or another. Whether it’s the death penalty, war, disconnecting life support, feeding tubes, etc…, and oh yes, conservatives terminate life support, feeding tubes, etc… when the situation presents itself.

In Utah, an unborn baby survived the stabbing death of it’s mother. Delivered premature and addicted to drugs, conservative utah was more than ready to let the baby die.

We all choose to kill people.

I am so glad someone brought up this topic of discussion. These are my opinions.

I have always believed that one should be philosophically consistent. If one is pro-life, one should be against the death penalty. If one is pro-choice, one should be for the death penalty. These should be “across the board” positions with no exceptions. Life is sacred, period.

Here in Texas, we seem to want it both ways—anti-abortion and very pro-death penalty. (This is similar to our position on public education. We want smart citizens, but we don’t want to fund education. But that’s for another discussion…) We must strive to be more consistent.

I believe that a man’s ability to have a say in the birth of his biological child is temporarily given up during the pregnancy simply because he is incapable of giving birth. If he wishes to have children, he must choose his partner carefully. Once she’s pregnant, it’s out of his hands, literally.

We should extend this philosophy through our statutes as well. Pregnancy is such a uniquely female experience. Here’s my extremely radical idea—I would like to see abortion laws addressed only by female citizens and female politicians. This topic is uniquely theirs.

If there is a conflict between the parents, the father has every right to fight for the child once it is born. During the pregnancy, he must provide for the mother or step aside. He cannot dictate the terms of the pregnancy and not provide for the mother. That is unbelievably inconsistent, and it’s disrespectful to the mother.

To me, it is remarkably disrespectful to dictate to a pregnant woman what she can and cannot do regarding this incredibly special time in her life. She needs care. She’s already in a perpetual state of concern, especially if it’s her first pregnancy. If she doesn’t want the baby, facilitate the baby’s adoption as well as care for the mother during the pregnancy.

Please don’t tell a pregnant woman it’s against the law to have an abortion and then also not take care of either her or the baby. If we turn someone out completely and give her no options other than “give birth and raise it yourself,” we run the risk of finding babies in plastic bags in dumpsters or having children grow up in such deprived, neglectful environments that they will probably perpetuate criminal, abusive behavior. Our prisons are already overcrowded.

Statistically speaking, I agree with the author of Freakonomics regarding his position that the increase in abortions during the 70’s resulted in the decrease of crime in the 90’s. To me it makes a lot of sense.

I strongly believe that, if one is pro-life, one should be willing to adopt a child, or at least volunteer at an adoption clinic or orphanage. I see no problem with someone standing outside an abortion clinic asking nicely if he/she may adopt the baby and pay for the mother’s prenatal care and childbirth.

I think it’s remarkably un-Christian and undignified to shout at pregnant women and show them graphic, disgusting, very large posters of aborted fetuses. God loved us so much that he gave us Jesus—the personification of God’s love. He didn’t send us a warrior or an unhinged sociopath. Yes, carrying large posters of aborted fetuses is sociopathic.

I am all for rethinking the adoption laws of this country and for putting tons of financial resources toward the care, education, and rearing of our children. However, that’s the super expensive way of handling this situation. Abortion is much less expensive—and therefore should be the choice of philosophically consistent fiscal conservatives.

The whole anti-abortion ballyhoo from the religious right goes back to the Old Testament belief of the superiority of men over women.

Keep women subservient to men…women should have no voice in the decision-making process, etc. It is sexist, demeaning and denigrating…period.

If men were able to get pregnant there would be absolutely no debate over abortion whatsoever…none.

As far as the Founding Fathers, and their stance on abortion…someone posted the they didn’t address this issue because they couldn’t comprehend our barbarism…abortion has been performed since the dawn of mankind. It wasn’t spoken of openly, but it was happening. It wasn’t spoken of in the Bible, but it ws practiced then too. This isn’t some new phenomenon that has recently reared its ugly head.

It is consistent for a person to believe in non-abortion law and for the death penalty for criminals. The death penalty should be applied as a penalty that fits the crime. A baby does not do crime and cannot speak for itself. Therefore life should be the baby’s only option. There should be a change in law to make it more affordable for parents to adopt those babies that are unwanted. I have two boys that are half-brothers. They were not babies when we had them enter our family. But, the whole idea of foster care was for future adoption. That we did five years after coming into our family. I believe there are many, many parents who would adopt if the cost was affordable. By promoting abortion we become judge and jury to one who cannot protect itself.

Parting shot. Remove tax support for PP.

Grant,
Because some other person or entity chose to kill someone for whatever reason does not mean that “I” or “we” are all culpable, and that it is suddenly ok. There is also a difference between an innocent baby or adult and a condemned murderer. Me, I’m ok with the death penalty, but I’d be ok with life without the possibility of parole as well. It’s actually less expensive on the taxpayers and more difficult for the condemned in my opinion. Do not use the failings of others as a justification for killing, or we will all descend to a society without any respect for life. And always remember, that life could be yours, or your child’s.

BTW, thanks for referring to babies as babies. The abortion mill industry seems to be afraid of that word for some reason.

If a mother (or couple) has a child that they cant afford and dont want, I wonder what the chances are that the child will become a burden on society?

I think we all have an idea of what the honest answer is.

And what do we say about someone brutally victimized by this burden? I guess we say tough luck.

phx8: “What is the penalty for a woman who has an abortion?”

You want that answer so bad ya had to ask it twice, eh? hehe j/k

Umm, I have an answer to this- it probably partly depends on whether or not she has a conscience. It’s like when a person commits a crime (murder, burglary, rape, whatever) and doesn’t get “caught”, either they forget about it and go on with their life without a care, or they are consumed by what they did and are punished by their conscience for the rest of their life.

My biggest problem with the GOP is their stance on abortion. But for the most part, I agree with the other issues they stand behind. Moreso than the Dems, which is why I tend to lean toward the right.

I can’t say as I’m sure one way or the other on abortion. I say that I’m “Pro-Choice” because that’s the closest I can get to “for or against”.

I had my oldest son when I was 18 (I was married, so don’t go there). During my pregnancy, my husband and I split up. 2 months after our son was born, and our divorce was underway, I got stupid drunk and got pregnant again by a guy that I’d dated before I was married. This guy was a total loser and had I not been young, drunk and stupid, I never would have “spread em” to him. But…I did, and I got pregnant. All I could think of was that I was going to be a single 19 yr old with an 11 yr old and a newborn. I was afraid of what kind of life I would be able to give them being I was just a baby myself. Well, I had an abortion. Am I proud of that decision? Hell no! I was young, naive and I made a huge mistake! What is my punishment for ending the life of my child? I have had to live with it every single day of my life since then. Maybe that’s not enough for some of you, but trust me, it’s not like “getting off scott free” either.

I later got married again, and got pregnant with twins. They died in utero, and I had to deliver my son and daughter knowing they were dead. Sometimes I think THAT was my punishment, but knowing God as I do, I know that he wouldn’t end 2 lives to punish me for ending one.

Having said that, I also feel that there ARE times when maybe abortion is justified? (note-I said MAYBE, so retract those claws for a minute) I’ve also been raped-had I gotten pregnant as a result of that rape, would it have been “right” for me to abort that child? I don’t know. Luckily, I was on birth control and that didn’t happen. I still have to live with that for the rest of my life too.

There are so many people in this world that cannot have children of their own and would give their right (or left LOL) arm to be able to adopt a loving little baby to raise as their own. Should women of rape/incest deliver these babies and put them up for adoption rather than abort them? COULD they deliver them and then put them up for adoption? I don’t know.

What I DO believe is this…politics is the LAST thing that should be telling these women what to do about it.

As far as men not having any say? That’s bull-not ALL women feel that way! And not all of us single mothers live on child support either. My oldest son is now 13-his father now has 3 children by 3 women and he doesn’t pay what he’s court ordered to. Hell, he doesn’t pay ANYTHING. And when he’s thrown in jail, his wife pays the bail and gets him out so he can sit on his ass at home again. He doesn’t call his son on his birthday or send him emails just to say hi. He doesn’t give a shit about anyone besides himself and never has. Now tell me, does HE have the right to make a decision as to what should happen with the children he sires? I’m definitely glad I didn’t abort our son, but I can assure you this, what HE thought had NOTHING to do with my decision to keep my son and wouldn’t have had anything to do with it if I’d decided to abort him. There are a lot of men (and women) like him out there. It’s a sad but verifiable fact. But they give a bad rap to the ones that really DO give a shit, and that is another reason this abortion debate is undecided in my mind.

I don’t know what’s right, and no data that I’ve seen/heard yet has convinced me one way or the other. All I know is that I did it, I had an abortion, and I’ve regretted it wholeheartedly ever since. I know other girls that have done it and have no regrets what-so-ever. I don’t think that abortion should be used as a method of birth control-but when I did it myself, how can I fight against it? All the should-a, could-a, would-a’s in the world won’t convince me that I did right, OR wrong, but my conscience says something that I can’t turn away from, therefore I will NEVER be able to abortion is “right”…I can’t say that it’s “wrong” either, not 100% and not 100% of the time.

Grant:

I think you need to revisit your thinking a little. You say that its not okay to take a life to save a life (ie abort a child in order to save the life of the mother). Its the logical equivalent of self-defense, though. If someone points a gun at me with intent to kill me, I can kill them first with no legal repercussions. It only makes sense.

In the event of rape and incest, too many people try to “set up” the argument. For instance, if I say there should be no exception to rape, then they say “Cruel and heartless man, how DARE you force a 13 year old child who was raped by her uncle have to have the baby!!” And if I say then, okay lets make an exception, then they say “Ah hah, so you have no true moral issue here”.

Painting an argument in such a way that there is no acceptable answer is a wonderful debate technique, but its not applicable in real life.

I prefer no abortions, but I do understand the mental trauma that can come from having to carry the product of rape or incest, so I would make exception there and of course in the case of danger to the health of the mother. The danger aspect would need to be specifically defined, as some doctors would suggest that a 10% elevation of blood pressure due to pregnancy could be claimed as “dangerous” to the mother (when in fact it would be absolutely normal).

The biggest difference is that a woman has a choice to not have sex (ie reproductive freedom), but has no choice in the case of rape or incest.

“If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide.”
Exodus 21:22

The Bible never directly addresses the subject of abortion, but this comes about as close to the topic as possible. The translation of the word “miscarriage” has been consistent and unanimous among both Christian and Jewish scholars until 1995, when one Christian fundamentalist group re-interpreted the meaning of the word “miscarriage” in an attempt to make the Bible less pro-choice friendly.

Of course, the OT also views women, slaves, and cattle as property for all legal purposes, so we might want to seek moral direction elsewhere.

Tanya,
I can understand why people would decide one way or another. Personally, I’m pro-choice.

JBOD,
What about a case like Downs Syndrome?

“When this mass of cells has developed human characteristics, that is the time under law to start recognizing it as a human and to provide it with more protections.”

vegetable, until the 13th amendment that is what would have been said about me and my children. my wife would have been put in jail for being with a black man. religous leaders of the 19th century protested against slavery, so does that make slavery a religous issue? i do not think so. i would have protested against slavery myself but i was only 3/5 of a person and had no voice, no rights, and no protection under the law. it sounds just like that mass of cells you are talking about, that, by the way we all once were. us religous people call that mass a baby.

lllplus2,
If I run into a building burning and have to choose between saving your child, or saving a petri dish with 5 viable blastulae, which should I choose?

Grant
Having to choose who to save in an emergency and choosing to murder a baby is two different things.
I could ask the same thing with different people involved. If you had a choose to save that 2 year-old, your wife, or your parents, who would you save? The fact is neither are very likely situations.
However I would save the tow year-old. The reason being, there wouldn’t be any living unborn children in one for them murder mills. And the two year-old is most likely in jeopardy too.

Stephen Daugherty probably represents the American mainstream.

Stephen (if you don’t mind) says abortion is a bad thing, but should be legal with some restrictions.

I agree with that too. We should bypass both extremes (never & anytime).

Abortion issue been bad for America. Compromise in the political arena would be a good thing.

I’m wondering about something.
If the profit was taken out of murdering babies, and their liberal murder doctor buddies couldn’t get rich doing it. Would the liberals start screaming for this type of murder to be outlawed?

About the debate of abortion.
There will always be theft, murders, rapist, terrorist attacks,etc.
Alot of things that we wish would go away, and we put it out of our minds as much as possible, because there is not alot we can do about it.
But, by putting it out of our minds, doesnt make it go away. It is a cold hard fact, abortion is killing a life.
Whenever a law goes into effect to protect an innocent life, we should be thankful, not critizing. We can’t stop women from getting abortions, entirely, but the little by little steps to help the unborn boys and girls is always a good thing. I am a woman, and I love my freedoms in America, but stopping a life for convience of another should Never be acceptable, especially in America where we have life and liberty.

Phx8:

JBOD, What about a case like Downs Syndrome? Posted by: phx8 at March 8, 2006 04:40 PM

Don’t know all that much about Downs Syndrome kids, but they seem to live reasonably normal lives, but at a bit lower functioning level than most people. And from my understanding, they live happy lives full of love.

Having lost a child at 7 months in the womb due to severe malformity ( it was my wife’s womb, but my child nonetheless), I think I can speak from experience about this issue. My baby died before my wife and I had to make any kind of decision on abortion. As such, I can only guess what I’d have done, but the baby was not going to live with the defects she had. In that kind of case, I tend towards compassion for the parents in making the decision, similar to a parent considering pulling the plug on life support for a child.

I feel differently when the decision is made regarding a healthy baby.

If I take the Athiest/Left (Extreme)point of view, the federal government will force everyone to accept that abortion is legal and a choice. If I take the Religious/Right (Extreme) point of view, the federal government will tell us that abortion is murder will force all of us to accept the consequences. Neither side reflects the majority of the public.

Looking at the breakdown of the population and their point of view, www.pollingreport.com, there fails to be an extreme view held by a large majority of our populace. More likely, the answer will be “it depends on the situation” based on the polls listed above.

With that said, I resent the federal government trying to tell me either way what to follow when it comes to abortion. I fall back to it being a “states rights” issue and let the local populace decide how they want it to be viewed and handled.

With regard to who is more responsible for the pregnancy, both parties are responsible. The man can zip it up and so can the woman. Both go into the act knowing that their lives will be come exponentially more complicated once they engage in sex and therefore, both should be adult enough to accept responsibility. It’s not the man’s fault nor the woman’s fault alone, both played so both should pay. We ask politicians to be accountable for their actions so why shouldn’t we be responsible for ours?

TomH,

Thanks for responding to my post.

I have to respectfully disagree with your position on the use of the death penalty as being philosophically consistent with keeping a pro-life position. “To kill is okay,” and “Not to kill is okay,” are opposite. I appreciate the circumstances are different (killing a criminal versus not killing an unborn baby), but I believe the sanctity of life supercedes all.

I would like the sanctity of life respected for all people—born or not. Feel free to put away criminals for the rest of their lives with no possibility for parole. That is a practical solution for death row inmates.

Pope Paul VI set an unbelievable example when he forgave his potential assassin—in person. Wow! I believe we can be strong enough to do the same. I hope I am, but I pray I never have to be.

Regarding the adoption of your children, way to go! That is fantastic. My wife and I have a three-year-old daughter (biological) and I assume my wife and I are capable of having more, but I’ve often wondered about adopting instead. It’s just my natural instinct to believe there is a child or two out there who could use a great home who is currently in a bad environment. I am in awe of parents who open their homes to foster and adopted children.

Again, thanks for taking the time to respond to my post.

phx8,
first of all the issue is abortion. it is my understanding that fertalized eggs in a perti dish would constitute someone who wants to get pregnant and can’t. they may be even willing to adopt a baby but there aren’t many to adopt because so many unwanted pregnancies end up in abortion. like 1.3 million.

are you trying to ask when does life begin? if yes, from conception. if you are just making a hypothetical situation to avoid the the true issue, just as most pro-choice people do, ie what about rape, incest, and health of the mother when 97-99% of abortions are done for convenience, then your question is just a threadjack.

those 5 eggs in the dish are there because when inserted into the mother’s uterus all 5 might attach or none might attach. that is why there are so many. it is to make pregnancy more likely. to choose between a child and fertilized eggs that might or might not attach is a stupid question. anyone would choose the child. but isn’t the debate here about eggs that have been attached and then aborted?

if fertalized eggs don’t attach to the uterus, that is natural and it happens all the time, natural = not murder. purposefully preventing an attachment is not natural ie murder. nothing in nature rips out its own baby so as not to be burdened.

Ok so this argument has come down to two basic principles. Religion and government, am I right?
But if I’m not mistaken this country AND it’s government were founded under God. Since when are we justified to take a helpless life, simply because we (men AND women) cannot keep it in our pants? How about leading a monogamous lifestyle? Or using some form of birth control? I read something about if you are pro-life, then why not try to ban birth control? Ok, birth control does NOT prevent a fertilized egg from attaching. It either stops the sperm from fertilizing to begin with or it stops ovulation or both.

I am a 22 year old married mother of one, and I see girls my age all the time who have 3 or 4 or 5 kids simply because they can’t stop making bad decisions. So it is not always the man’s fault. And most of them are on welfare, depending on those who work for their living to support them and their kids. Why should everyone have to pay for your mistakes?

And what is the percentage of pregnancies from rape anyway? Anyone? Not very high considering the fact that most rapists are in fact rapists because they have a sexual aggression issues due to the fact that almost 60% of them have some kind of sexual dysfunction! (i.e. inability to finish)

So it is my opinion that “We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union”…… should just quit whining and accept the consequences of our actions and raise our kids instead of them raising themselves and stop making excuses for why we are so incompetent!

It is funny how the same people who are for the right to bear arms(gun lobbiest), and pro death penalty are ani-choice. But you do not see these same people waiting on line to adopt a child (especially one not of their own race. It seems they care more for the unborn than the born.
Furthermore, If a man doen’t want to be a daddy all he has to do is wear a condom, if he doesn’t he doesn’t get a choice. for it was already made by him.

Its also funny how the same people who are for the killing of an innocent child are against the killing of a convicted murderer.
Its also funny how the same people who think abortion and who you marry is a personal choice and others fears and viewpoints should not matter. But yet they are more than willing to force their viewpoints onto others when it comes to gun ownership and taxes to support their pet programs that make them feel better.

Yes, its a funny world. Ha Ha

AlwaysforChoice,

The man actually has two choices. Yes, a condom is one. The other is not to have sex.

Let’s teach men that it’s okay not to have sex everytime they feel the urge.

Tanya…al I have to say is (I removed part of this comment due to attacking Tanya personally. Not allowed. Please control yourself paul.)

next issue…I just want to say that we as humans must not kill. That means do not kill Downs Syndrome babies/fetus, do not kill murders (lock them up), do not kill in order to convenience your life due to your irresponsibility, do not kill the doctor who performs the abortion, do not kill a fetus because his father was a rapist (wasnt his fault), do not kill because you believe the fetus would grow up to be a murderer himself. Thou shall not kill is a pretty simple concept….live by it!!

Paul,

Your comments toward Tanya were unbelievably harsh.

Please don’t come back to this forum until you can control your temper.

Thank you.

Condoms leak. Abstaining works very well. Funny thing about condoms. Consumer Reports had a report on condoms and Planned Parenthood condoms were effective only 13% of the time. That is a screamer!!! Give somebody a condom then get 8-9 out of ten to come in for an abortion. PP marketing has got it figured out!!.

To Paul:
First I agree with you about the abortion issue.
Second, I think you were very wrong about Tanya.

Dyeinthewooldem;
They practiced abortion in the Bible as a form of witchcraft, sacrificing their babies to gods.

Paul: “Tanya…all I have to say is that you speak like an irresponsible trailer trash whore….truly vile.”

Considering you only know about me what I’ve chosen to share with you, I suppose I can understand where you would come to that conclusion; however, you don’t see me posting what I think of you for MAKING such a comment. All I have to say to you is that you have a lot more growing up to do mentally than I do if you can resort to such nastiness toward another human being.

Tanya - Sorry I didn’t see that sooner.
Dawn

Here are some interesting facts for you to think about while you’re mulling over the pros and cons of abortion laws:

-the fetal heart starts beating at day 22, the beginning of the 4th week after conception. Some women don’t even know that they’re pregnant by then. The spinal cord and fetal brain are pretty much formed by the end of the 4th week, but continue to mature, grow, and develop; however, it is functioning albeit at an early stage of development. The baby is fully formed at 9 weeks (i.e.- the baby looks just like any baby that is born, only much smaller). (info from “The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology” by Keith L. Moore and T.V.N. Persaud)

When do we define life? When do we define death? I think most people agree that death is defined by “brain death” which is usually a result of cardiac arrest (the heart stops). Yes, trauma is certainly another way. Could we define life in the same manner? You could make the arguement at least. If life begins at 4 weeks of gestation, wouldn’t it then be murder to intentionally terminate this life? Doesn’t the government have a responsibility to protect the lives of it’s citizens? These are all rhetorical questions of course, but they answer some of the comments posted previously.

Then again there’s the old debate of choice and accountability. There’s always a choice; there are always consequences as well that you cannot escape. There are consequences for both men and women and there should be. Trying to escape them by killing an innocent child is not the answer; taking responsibility for your actions is the answer. Yes, 9 months can be along time to carry a child. Yes, there is a lot of pain and discomfort and even embarrassment. There are also a lot of people on a waiting list somewhere that can’t have children and would love to adopt yours.

As far as rape and incest go, the morning after pill will prevent implantation or large doses of some other FDA approved hormone regimens. Why do you have to wait until weeks later to decide you don’t want a baby after being raped? Oral contraceptives don’t work the same way; they prevent ovulation.

To answer another comment posted: I would save the child from the burning building because fertilized eggs don’t feel any pain and they are not viable unless implanted in a uterus as has been previously mentioned.

Just some food for thought.

If the human race had not spent the last 2000 years swimming against the currents of religious ignorance, we might have made it ashore where education and knowledge might have enabled responsibility better than the previous, thus possibly eliminating the need for abortions.

It’s the cult of ignorance known as religion, stupid, as usual!

I suppose I should mention that the Republicans are cutting funding for child support, education and healthcare for children of poor families?

JBOD,
Years ago I taught High School, and one of the assignments was putting together a presentation on a controversial issue. The presentations done by the kids on abortion were usually excellent- and most of those presentations did not have life experience behind them.

Downs Syndrome is bad. A close relative of mine had to deal with it. I’ll just leave it at that.

Personally, I can respect opinions from all over the spectrum on abortion, but of one thing I’m sure: government has no business involving itself in such matters.

Tanya,

You said, “All I have to say to you is that you have a lot more growing up to do mentally than I do if you can resort to such nastiness toward another human being.”

Tanya, my wife and I had a stillborn son on 10/25/05. He was completely healthy, other than the cord became knotted. The cord was the cause of his demise. I am “grown up mentally” because I know that life is to be respected and cherished. It is people like you who degrade the moral fiber of what it means to be human. Tanya, you killed your baby as a means of birth control!! That is the ultimate in selfish sin! You use liberal doctrine to keep your sanity when you say, “I will NEVER be able to say abortion is “right‎…I can’t say that it’s “wrong‎ either..” You are the complete representation of the degregation of morals in our society. Please consider getting your tubes tied so no more children have to die.

Parting Shot: I would rather be a conservative than a liberal on judgement day.

Phx8,

Government has the responsibility to protect the lives of its citizens. I believe that abortion is murder and that babies are citizens too. You obviously don’t feel that abortion is murder. I’d refer you to my previous post. I’m not trying to change your mind; only you can do that. I’m just trying to show you that if I’m right, then the government does have “business involving itself in such matters.”

Aldous,

You do not kill someone because a social handout is not available. If people would take responsibility for their lives, there would not be a problem. Perhaps those “poor families” you mention should work hard to support their families.

If we use your logic, why don’t we just kill those people who are irresponsible and connot take care of their children, instead of aborting the babies they conceive. Sounds stupid, huh? Get a clue man.

phx8,

Downs is no doubt bad and very difficult for families to deal with. However, most kids affected by by Down’s are healthy, and mostly happy. They are affected to different degrees, there are those actually achieve high enough funcitoning that they can live on their own and hold jobs.

When I was working at a Children’s Hospital, one of the doctors gave me something to read that talked about the positive affects that Down’s children can have on their parents, extended families, and the larger community. The basic premise was that they teach us how to love unconditionally all the time.

Now, there is a high correlation of Down’s with other much nastier diseases that are caused by similar genetic defects. Those that have those other diseases are truly suffering quite often, that may be the case with your relative’s child.

I’m with you on abortion, but I think Down’s is not the right example. I recently had my first child and my wife and I were faced with the question of whether we wanted to know if the baby was going to be faced with a serious genetic defect. We opted for the test and thankfully it was negative. But I have to say, had the diagnosis been Down’s we would have thought long and hard about the decision, but I think we would have gone forward anyway. Other more serious diseases, probably not.

In short, I’m with you on the argument, but not this data point. I too have had experience with Down’s (though not with a close relative); my experience was 180 degrees from yours. I found that they were great individuals full of humor and love, and a pleasure to be around. Trying and frustrating at times, but aren’t we all?

This is incredible…! I’ve sat here and read from beginning to the point where I was too pissed to not write something.
We have been laid on an exam table, feet placed in stirrups and and our most intimate places exposed to the (essentially) entire world !!! It doesn’t look to me like we’ve made much progress since biblical days…..hell, we’re still chattle….and are being talked about like we haven’t been let out of the back rooms yet.
phx8…you hit slightly on one point that most don’t even consider, and that is the health of the fetus. Science and medicine can now tell us at an extremely early date, if it is, or not healthy. I, too, had an abortion many years ago, for purely medical reasons, and it was a toss-up which of us, me, or the fetus, would be more physically affected. I refuse to share with you all why that was, because it isn’t any business of any of you. I did, however, discuss it at length with my husband and Dr. To this day, and some 25 years after the fact, I wonder………but I don’t beat myself up for our choice.
So, now for a change of pace, why don’t one of you guys out there who has had a vasectomy jump in here and give us all of the explicit details !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sandra,

You make no sense

Cathy,

I am not fan of abortion, I am however a fan of liberty and free will. I am glad as well that your mother, your parents choose life. As far as the end of life is concerned, I do not fear it, nor do I fear that at the end it will be the end as far as I know it. I have come to realize—and it has been a slow, agonized lurching—that God does not exist at least in the clothing in which we human have donned him. There will be no second coming, because there was not a first. I will concede that Jesus walked the earth, but that he was not the son of God.

I would love to believe the fantasy that is God, but I no longer feel the need to cling to it; I set the course of my life and I am responsible for it. If there ever was a God, he has long since deserted this blue marble; we are on our own…

V. Edward

I am not fan of abortion, I am however a fan of liberty and free will. I am glad as well that your mother, your parents choose life. As far as the end of life is concerned, I do not fear it, nor do I fear that at the end it will be the end as far as I know it. I have come to realizeâ¡®d it has been a slow, agonized lurchingâ´¨at God does not exist at least in the clothing in which we human have donned him. There will be no second coming, because there was not a first. I will concede that Jesus walked the earth, but that he was not the son of God.

V. Edward,

God is not a fantasy. God is a reality taught through the personification of his spirit in Jesus Christ. It is simply a matter of whether you want to accept it. I am an Irish Catholic and people like you scoff at people like me who speak about faith. Faith is the belief in life and in what tomorrow will bring. Faith exists in a religious and secular form. In secular form, if you did not have faith that your life would continue tomorrw, it would negatively impact your life today. In religious form, if you do not have faith in what Jesus has taught us in his life that there is a promise of heaven for those who follow His Word, your life will be negatively impacted today. Your most recent post above illustrates this.

Answer me this…how was our world created? How were we created? Who created us? Who designed the bilogical systems to enable human reproduction? Please do not hand me the big bang mantra of confused atheists…give a me a thoughtful answer to these questions.

Paul,

Were there dinosaurs in the bible? I must have missed that book. Please explain.

reed

“Abortion always should have been a state by state issue. Some states are more conservative and some states are more liberal on this matter. Then you live in a state that suits your choice.”

“It should be left up to the states and its people on whether abortion is legal there or not.
Cali has no business telling S. Dakota what to do and S. Dakota has no business telling Cali what to do.”

amen.

do we really want to make this about privacy? if ROE gets struck down, it is actually possible that they might conclude that there is no constitutional right to privacy. (unlikely, but possible.) this issue should have been left to the states, and we may all pay for their activism. now, established precedent or not, the SCOTUS could (potentially);

1. strike down Roe based on the notion that this is a state issue (which it is)
2. strike down Roe based on the notion that abortions are unconstitutional (violating the rights of the fetus)
3. strike down Roe based on the notion that, as previously mentioned, there is no right to privacy.

i personally doubt that they will overturn Roe this time; regardless, this issue will return to haunt us. i say, let S. Dakota decide for S. Dakota. they have proposed a law that no one wants simply to bring this case to the SCOTUS, and they will not stop trying until Roe is overturned (for whatever reason).

legislating morality is all fine and well, so long as yours is the morality being legislated.

for the record, i am pro-choice. in this instance, i mean both in the case of abortions and in the case of the states’ right to decide this contentious issue.

Actually, I have a political solution to this mess. Lets really smash the church state division and make it so only christians are banned from getting abortions and non-christians will get government subsidies for abortions.

Its a win-win situation for everybody. Nobody can complain with this compromise.

cheers!

Reed,

First, to answer your question, no dinasaurs are in the Bible. Therefore, you could not have missed that book. What more explanation to your question do you need? Where did the dinosaurs come from?

Second, to address your “political solution” to abortion….I must say it was very Clintonesque in the sense that you are trying to appease everyone without respect to the law that murder is illegal. Where is Vince Foster?

Very clever Reed. The problem of course, (with the whole debate) is that we are not truly arguing about the same thing. We recognize that at some point in the process of gestation the two cells that have joined together eventually become a human being. I think most people would agree that whenever that point is, that is the point at which an abortion is killing a human being. The problem is really this: on the one hand you have people who want to look at it ethically/scientifically and try to determine the start of human life (first heartbeat, first brainwave, ability to thrive, etc.) From this perspective we should be able to determine an acceptable point after which abortion should be banned and before which it is nobody’s business except the woman’s. But because the point-of-view uses only measurable criteria, it does not take account of the soul. If you are a religious person, you must ask at what point it is that the soul either comes into being or comes to inhabit the fetus. Many people seem to believe that this is the moment of conception. If you take that as a given, then arguments about states rights or women’s right to choose have no meaning whatsoever - abortion is murder.

Essentially, it is like arguing with an insanse person. No amount of logic or proof can possibly can change his mind as his version of reality is different. Before anyone takes offense, I am not equating religion with insanity. My point is that to the scientific mind an argument based on the soul might as well be insane and from the religous perspective an argument which doesn’t consider the soul is equally insane.

Diogenes,

You said, “legislating morality is all fine and well, so long as yours is the morality being legislated” when speaking on abortion above. Well, I must inform you that abortion is not completely about morality. It is about illegal killing of human life. Your liberal bias allows your conscience to believe it is just a moral talking point the right is trying to advance. It is about protecting life and preventing murder that is illegal in EVERY State.

If you leave abortion up to the states,rich women in red states will still be able to travel to get an abortion. Not so likely for poor women.

Paul,

Its called sarcasm. By the way, contrary to popular belief a fetus isn’t a human being therefore it isn’t murder. I don’t see 800 women per year thrown in jail for having abortions in South Dakota. I also grew up and lived in South Dakota for 22+ years so I know the state pretty well.

My real point is that this abortion law is purely based in religion (Christianity) and not everyone prescribes to the bible in there daily life therefore why should the bible apply to all people regardless of their religious beliefs. If my memory serves me correctly, this country was founded on freedom of religion and not rule by christianity.

I am agnostic, I don’t believe in any organized religion because they are contradictory and in the words of Arthur C. Clarke from “Childhoods End”, they can’t all be right……can they?

BTW - You didn’t answer my question about dinosaurs.

Adverbal,

Life begins at conception, when a male sperm and female egg unite. It is no person’s right to kill this life. It really quite simple. Try to work on scaling back the liberal confusion you suffer from.

Paul…how about cases of rape or incest? Is abortion ok in those instances?

Dyeinthewooldem;
They practiced abortion in the Bible as a form of witchcraft, sacrificing their babies to gods.

Posted by: cheryl at March 8, 2006 06:34 PM

If you’d take the time to read the Bible that you want to talk about things being in, you’ll notice that it condemns witchcraft. It also condemns murder. Which is exactly what killing unborn babies is.

always for choice
There’s a difference between putting a murderer to death and murdering an unborn baby.
The murderer gave up his/her right to live when they committed the crime.
A baby hasn’t done anything to deserve being put to death.

I’m all for choice.
A woman can choose to have sex or choose not too.
If she chooses not to, the everything’s fine.
If she chooses to then she needs to make sure that either she or her partner uses some sort of birth control if she doesn’t want to get pregnant.
If she chooses that route then everything is fine.
If she chooses not to make sure of it and gets pregnant, then she looses any more choices.

when someone opens up and tells there life experiences dont slam a knife in there back. also you, if you had been reading tanya’s posts. sorry you put the wrong label on her, iv’e found her to be quite a very likible person and sincere and sensitive those are very good traits and if you are the expert on being a conservative i think that party is in big trouble. and you call yourself a christian and yet you casted the first stone was not jesus the forgiver of all? he forgave the men on the cross? also he forgave mary magdalene? i am not a christain because of my heritage but i belive jesus was real and payed the ultimate price for all. i thought it was the christian thing to forgive people not chastise them. i feel in my heart tanya is my friend

Reed,

Wow, where do I begin. I have an observation. You must have gone through public school, based on your grammer and sentence structure. Anyway, lets discuss the issues. First, Christians support the idea that abortion is murder. That does not mean anti-abortion is a Christian concept. When you voluntarily terminate life, you are commiting murder. A fetus is a life that has brain waves, heartbeat, hands, toes, and even experiences fear of the abortion needle as it moves away from it in the womb when the “doctor” in administering the crime.

Second, America was founded on Christian morals and beliefs by virtue of our founding fathers setting our country up as a Republic and NOT a Democracy. A Republic is based on the rule of law, similar to that of the Bible, as our founding fathers intended and overtly stated. A Democracy is a form of government that is ruled by a majority feeling of the people at the time. Bills become laws though the vote of those we elect to perform the job for us - this is a Republic. In a Democracy, the whole country would have to conduct elections on every bill before they would become law. Did your public school teacher educate you on these facts? Of course he/she did not.

Third, I did answer your question on your meaningless dinosaur question…read my post above.

Is it still murder if the baby was conceived out of rape or incest? This is where most of the pro-life movement’s thinking really angers me. They purport to be all for saving innocent unborn life, except in cases of rape or incest. How is that concern for the unborn life? A child conceived in the back seat of a car is no more of a life than one conceived from a rape. It seems some of these people are really concerned about punishing women, carrying an unwanted baby being the punishment.
I have much more respect for people who wouldn’t allow abortion ever, except if the mother’s life was in danger. At least they are consistent.

paul,

Execution was brought up.
Did you respond with your views? I’m too lazy to find the post.

Paul, your personal digs at other visitors here violate our policy. Comply, or lose your privilege to participate here. This will be your only warning.

Paul,

I suppose you never made a mistake when you were a teenager? Have you never done something that you’ve regretted ever since? At least I admit to what I did and as I said, I have to live with it for the rest of my life.

As far as your comment on me getting my tubes tied, don’t worry, I’ve had a hysterectomy-not because I didn’t want more children, but because I had cancer and would have died if I hadn’t fought the disease! One of the reasons I did fight it was so that my sons don’t have to grow up without their mother. I suppose that makes me bad too?

I could care less what you think of me. It’s obvious through your words that you are completely calloused, not to mention unforgiving, which, by the way, isn’t exactly Christian behavior.

Rant away, call me whatever you want. Like I said, I was young, naive and I made a mistake. The only one I have to answer to is God and I am ready to face him when my judgement day comes. But I certainly don’t think that it’s up to you to tell me what I should or shouldn’t have done, and it’s most definitely not something that politics should interfere with either-that much I DO know.

Reed,
A fetus isn’t a human being? Can you prove that? Beyond a shadow of a doubt? I don’t think it’s possible for anyone to prove it or disprove it. Trees don’t have brains or hearts and liberals want to protect them and kill babies. That makes sense.

Dawn

Please don’t apologize! With all of the words that are posted on these threads each day I’m sure it’s impossible to keep up. And in any case, it’s hardly your doing. One thing I have learned to do in my life is to exhibit self control and to not let the words of others shatter my pride.

Thank you for your concern, and for removing his words from his post.

Tanya

Paul,

And you must have been home schooled by your complete ignorance of American History. Now that we have the rudeness out of the way, lets get on to the discussion.

Abortion is a religious subject matter. We don’t live in a Christian country. We live in a secular country which our founding fathers whom were mostly atheists, put in the prevision of separation of church and state.

What the hell is wrong with Roe vs. Wade anyway. Its about choice. If you are christian and don’t believe in abortion, don’t have one. Its very simple. Even your home schooled educated mind should be able to grasp that concept. Sorry, being rude again.

If Roe vs. Wade is overturned and the Federal Government outlaws abortion, which means that the states cannot lawfully conduct abortions, then the separation of church and state will be broken and the church will now have say in political decisions.

Since you are obviously christian than you must also be a gun toting redneck so you have empathy for those who don’t want the separation of church and state to be broken in the least bit. You know, kind of like the NRA with gun control.

Anyway, you did answer my question about dinosaurs but your argument is lacking. Not much of a discussion though. I was hoping for the old argument that dinosaur bones were put on this earth to confuse us or something equally as asinine.

Was my grammar more to your liking this time?

BTW - did they teach you rudeness in your private christian school?

I still apologize.
Comments like those are not allowed.
I did enjoy the others coming to your ‘rescue’.
Dawn :)

BTW- I do agree that a truly Christian person would not speak to someone in that manner.

Moderater, my apologies to Paul. I was being rude in response to his post and it was unbecoming of me.

Jim T,
You said: “This debate is solely “…between a woman, her family, her doctor, and her God.‎
I am wondering, where does the baby figure into all this? Does the baby have rights? If we all got together and decided to kill Jim T, wouldn’t you like to have a say? Believe me, when you are old and inconvenient, you do not want to live in a society that kills the powerless because they are inconvenient. That is where we are headed though.

Paul,

My post was simply stating that I don’t believe that this is a case of arguing right versus wrong - this is two sides that truly view reality in different ways.

To save you the trouble of having to scroll up, I wrote

If you are a religious person, you must ask at what point it is that the soul either comes into being or comes to inhabit the fetus. Many people seem to believe that this is the moment of conception. If you take that as a given, then arguments about state’s rights or women’s right to choose have no meaning whatsoever - abortion is murder.”

How is that different from what you wrote? (actually I do regret using the phrase “seem to believe” as it seems to be generally accepted among devout Christians, but I have read some who argue that there is nothing in scripture which defines conception as the start of life - I’ll leave that to others to debate).

What is it that I wrote that caused you to insult me? What makes you think I’m a liberal?

my kids watch animal planet. they see a predator raid a birds nest and aborts all the eggs in the nest. they are outraged and upset that a snake or crow or whatever would harm those baby birds that haven’t even had a chance to hatch. their view point is not from religion. it’s funny the kids, all kids, see the truth that we as adults have grown to stupid to see or “choose” not to see. Jesus Christ has saved ever member of my household but we knew abortion was wrong before we knew Jesus.

Oh yeah, why does a wild animal have more rights than an unborn human? what is the penalty for destroying bald eagle eggs? the bible mentioned dragons, we call them dinosaurs.

Shelly,

In cases of rape or incest, it is a tough situation. To answer your question, let me tell you that I believe all life is enabled and blessed by God. In such vile cases, I do not believe a fetus itself is evil. The fetus has life and will grow to be born into this world. No one has the right to take the life of a helpless human being, even in cases of rape and incest. If we applied the logic you crypticly invoke, Jesus would have been aborted and would have never walked on this earth because Mary was pregnant without a husband. This was equivalent to rape during that time.

“i thought it was the christian thing to forgive people not chastise them. i feel in my heart tanya is my friend”
Posted by: RODNEY BROWN at March 8, 2006 10:31 PM

Thank you Rodney-I appreciate your kind words. While I don’t expect everyone here to agree with me, or my views, I think they’re just as deserving to be here as anyone else’s. I’m sorry that I misjudged you in the beginning (I know I said that before, but I felt it beared repeating) and I’m glad you were willing to give me another chance.

I’m not worried, we will all have to answer for the things we’ve done in this life, and I’m ready to do that. I have repented and feel I’ve been forgiven.

I’m still not sure where I stand on the issue, its complicated to me- not so cut and dry as some make it seem, but I respect that others are either for, or against it. I’m actually learning a few things from others on here as far as why they feel the way they do, which is why I’m here in the first place, to learn about the issues.

I have my pride, and nothing anyone says can take that away from me.

Thank you again for your kindness, and to the rest of you as well. =)

Tanya

Paul,

I’m sorry. I didn’t realize that your posts are parodies. I couldn’t appreciate the subtlety of you humor until you took a dig at Reed about his grammar and then misspelled the word (and some others). And the satirical references to this being a Christian nation…Well done! You should send your work to The Onion!

Reed, your ignorance is astounding. If Roe v. Wade is overturned it will not make abortion illegal in the US. It will simply mean that each state will make it’s own decision on the matter. Some will allow it, some won’t, exactly the way the Founding Fathers planned it.

Also dude, your hatred of Christians is not hurting them. I’ve posted several comments on this thread and have yet to mention religion. This isn’t a religious issue, it’s a rights issue. In the US we guarantee the right to LIFE, liberty and the PURSUIT (not the guarantee of happiness mind you) of happiness. There is no age limit on that pledge, and babies have rights just like you and I.

Good luck with the anger though, that stuff will kill you if you don’t deal with it.

Reed,

You are tiring me. I attended Catholic school all my life…not home school. I am anything but a “redneck”, as you suggested. Ever hear of Notre Dame? It is proof that a Catholic education is superior to public school education. Look at the grades and income levels of both classes.

Anyway, with all due respect, you are comletely uninformed on true American history. Our complete formation as a country is modeled after the Bible and Judeao Christian principles and values. I suggest you do some internet searches to gain some insight into this. In your reasearch, you will see direct quotes from our founding fathersm supporting my statements to you. Good luck in your research.

David C.

I have no hatred of christians, I just think they are stepping over there bounds on many issues. Why is that hatred? They are the dominating religion in this country and you cannot seriously believe that overturning abortion is not a religious issue. You need to pay more attention.

As far as Roe vs. Wade goes, I not sure if you are right on that. Before 1972, abortions were illegal. Correct me if I am wrong but was there a law in place in all 50 states that banned abortion. I don’t think so. Why in 1973, with Roe vs. Wade, did it now make it legal to get an abortion in all 50 states. Sounds suspiciously like a federal law to me.

Again, correct me if I am wrong.

BTW - I am certainly not pro-abortion. I also think abstinence is fantasy. Therefore, I think contraception is the best answer. I would never ever recommend abortion but I also believe that it should be a choice, hence pro-choice.

Paul,
I have no idea what you just wrote. Do you believe abortion is okay in cases of rape or incest? Can you answer without invoke Jesus?

Paul,

You need to get your ego in check buddy. You are tiring me as well. Good luck with whatever it is you do.

Tanya
If the asshole won’t pay child support then be glad he doesn’t try to do anything with your son. He’d most likely teach him to be a good for nothing asshole too. At least you have a chance to teach the boy to be responsible and if divorced to pay child support.
We’ve all made mistakes in our lives, and we’ve all paid for those mistakes one way or another. I’m not going to tell you you were right, but it’s over and done. I see no need for you to beat yourself up anymore over it.
Your right about one thing for sure. There are a lot of folks that can’t have children that would love to take one these precious little bundles of joy home with them.
My wife and I had three of our own and thought she couldn’t have anymore. But we still wanted more kids so we adopted a little girl. We have never regretted doing it. She is just as precious to us as the others. And has been nothing but a very loving daughter and sister. We eventually had another girl but that doesn’t diminish the joy we’ve had raising our adopted daughter. It also doesn’t diminish the joy we had raising my baby sister either.
We’re even looking into adopting another child. This time one around 12 or 13. Don’t really know if it’s going to happen though. There’s some question about our ages.

Adverbal,

That was funny and a good observation on your part. My spelling and grammar is a little off because it is a little late where I am. I really could tell Reed was public school educated based on his opinions and not his grammar. Our public schools are the worst in the world and it shows.

Paul,

BTW - I graduated from South Dakota State. They have