Republicans & Conservatives: Archives

When America attacks Iran, as an Iranian that lives in Texas, I would like to fight for the Iranian side, Monday through Wednesday and for the American side, Wednesday through Saturday. And I would like Sundays off to run errands, do laundry and catch up with some sleep — if it’s okay with both sides. In a case I’m taken as a prisoner of war by either side, I refuse to perform human pyramid tricks or commit suicide by downing hair removal creams. I also like to request from the Iranian side not to ask me to blow myself up, and the American side not to ask me to attach electrical wires to nipples of hooded prisoners. Other than that, I’m ready to go. Where do I sign up?

This is a good article, except for the last paragraph. If this has not been published in print, may I suggest that you try to get it in print minus the last paragraph.

Charles Kovacs

Where is the American media when it comes to printing these cartoons? Are they afraid of offending muslims or making themselves targets? I have only seen them reproduced on the often maligned fox news and in the weekly standard.

Ben, the parallels with the FREC’s (Fundamentalist Right Wing Christians) in the US are uncanny aren’t they? They have burned minority churches, vandalized synagogues, bombed Reproductive Health clinics or abortion clinics in the vernacular, insist upon a declaration that this country was founded by, and should be reserved in law as a Christian nation despite the fact that the pantheist and monotheist American Indians religions predate Christianity by many more centuries than the U.S. has existed.

And all the arguments you make can apply just as easily to the FREC’s, there numbers are much larger than their more violent brethren leading the fight, they detest bad media, having to share space and time with others not of their ilk, and become livid when their religion is mocked or ridiculed.

And you are quite right in parallel, the media and press are responsible for helping to insure that this great land of diversity NEVER become an exclusive Christian State, thank Buddha! I agree entirely with your conclusions.

As for the critics of the media, may I suggest that it still retains a modicum of respect for its readers and viewers, and thus chooses out of respect for its many Muslim audiences not to offend by reprinting rather tasteless humor. Media is a business afterall, and the customer offended ceases to be a customer. If you believe in free enterprise, then you must respect the media’s respect for its audiences by not reprinting tasteless humor which will turn off some of its customer base.

David

Ah, standard liberal speak. Compare to Christians (even though there is none). Defend the bad behavior by comparing to something you don’t believe in. Avoid addressing the actual question or statement.

Very neolib of you.

David:

Ben, the parallels with the FREC�€™s (Fundamentalist Right Wing Christians) in the US are uncanny aren�€™t they? They have burned minority churches, vandalized synagogues, bombed Reproductive Health clinics or abortion clinics in the vernacular, insist upon a declaration that this country was founded by, and should be reserved in law as a Christian nation despite the fact that the pantheist and monotheist American Indians religions predate Christianity by many more centuries than the U.S. has existed.

I’m sure you can find instances where Christians have done bad things—in fact, many of the things that you’ve listed. But lets look at it honestly, please. Are there instances of mass violence on the scale of the ‘cartoon riots’ that you can point to? Are there instances where the violence spreads over multiple nations and regions of the world?

I know you could probably point to the Crusades, but lets keep it in the last century or so for examples that would be relevant.

The Christians that I know would decry the things that you talked about. So would Buddhists. And both live on land that was owned by Indians. Tell you what—when you show me the proof that you’ve given your property back to the Indians, since its really theirs and not yours, I’ll do the same. Until then, we probably both live under the same hypocrisy.

That you would compare Christianity (or the abuses and misuses of Christianity) with the fanatical Islamic rioting that is going on speaks more to your ignorance of Christianity than anything. I don’t see how anyone knowledgable about Christianity could make that claim.

The cartoon riots aren’t being carried out by fundamentalists who have hijacked Islam; they are being carried out by the mainstream. This sort of barbarism is exactly what the Koran demands. Islam is not a religion of peace or tolerance or freedom. It is a totalitarian, bigoted and merciless ideology. It cannot be compared to Christianity in any way. The assertion that Muslims and Christians worship the same god is false. When confronted by people who demanded that a prostitute be stoned to death, Jesus said “Let he that is without sin cast the first stone” and he saved her life. When Muhammad was confronted the same way, he killed the prostitute himself.

I don’t want to hear ONE word of ANYTHING at ALL the next time someone burns the flag or excercises any other act of freedom of speech on a “symbol.”

Re David Remer’s posting on fundamentalist Christians vandalizing synagouges, would you provide some examples? As far as I know, fundamentalist churches are among the strongest supporters of Israel for religious reasons of their own.

The comparison with the ‘religous right’ can begin after we see 40-50 yrs of suicide bombings, burning of foreign embassies, taking and beheading hostages(other than the unborn), and airline hijackings. Maybe one could begin to see a comparison after all those criteria are met.

doherty,

“Where is the American media when it comes to printing these cartoons? Are they afraid of offending muslims or making themselves targets? I have only seen them reproduced on the often maligned fox news and in the weekly standard.”

What exactly would be the point?
Did you really enjoy seeing the recently released Abu Graib photos?
That was freedom of speech as well.
How much do we need to prove to ourselves that Western society maintains the freedom of speech, even though the Muslum culture doesn’t?

These folks have never had the same freedoms that we enjoy.
This isn’t like taking capitalism to the Soviet Union.
This is dragging a stone age mentality kicking and screaming into the 21st century, and it would appear that they aren’t going willingly.

How long has it taken to reverse centuries of racist thought on equality?
Do you really expect that when you try to reverse a billion people’s deeply held religion beliefs overnight, that there isn’t going to be any protest?

Charles Kovacs and Pige,

I cannot offer and example of a synagogue being vanalized on American soil by supporters of the religious right, but I can offer a personnal experience I had right after 9/11.

I have family I was visiting in Plano, TX when 9/11 happened. Literally across the street, there was a mosq being erected. The contractors were local constructon crews, mostly white Americans of anglo descent.

Within just a few days of the 9/11 tragedy, the newly finished mosq was attacked and vandalized, materials stolen and things broken and sabotaged. One of the Imams there attempted to stop the madness, and the response was an attack on the Imam complete with abusive names and supposedly pro-christian and anti-islam comments being hurled like weapons. The reactions of this mosq were to try and quiet the whole thing down and not foster any anger among there own in response to the vile and misguided actions of a few radicals. Now, were these crimes the actions of the “Religious Right?” …well, that depends on degrees doesn’t it? We can say with reasonable certainty, can we not, what kind of church the culprits go to and what way they most likely vote!

Further, I went to College in the Southwest of our great nation. There is much diversity of people out in the Southwest. They are hardworking, law abiding, CONSTITUTION RESPECTING, productive members of our society. There are a few Sikhs who live in the Southwest. About the only thing Sikhs have in common with muslims(only some muslims, at that), is that Sikhs wear turbins. For this reason alone there were MURDERS carried out by angry Americans in response to 9/11. A Father in Arizona, and his Son in Nevada in seemingly unrelated instances by different angry Christian Americans in response to 9/11. I wish I could still find the story to throw up a link here, but I did not get it back Googling; probably because it has been too long. I wish I had saved it then. I encourage the curious to look for this story. It’s real and it’s out there, somewhere.

Now let’s go to one of the Religious right wing SOCIAL PUTCHES:

The latest big prayer in school case to come before the Supreme Court came from a little school district in SE Texas. In this school, they set up a prayer time, on school grounds during school time and funded by tax money FROM US ALL. In this prayer time, they (and I mean teachers payed by tax money FROM US ALL) actually excluded a handful of students for “not beleiving as the others.” The excluded students included Mormans, Catholics, Jews, Jehova’s Witnesses.

In the very book cited above, the one written by Pat Buchanan, the author puts forth the idea that public schools ought to be able to have a mojority vote to establish such christian prayer groups. Clearly, like so much of the rest of the NEW RIGHT, this idea comes from the misunderstanding that it should somehow be possible to have one group of people VOTE AWAY the constitutional rights of another group of people. It’s a rediculous argument on it’s face but not to the neocons and not to this new ‘RELIGIOUS RIGHT.’

Joebagodonuts,

Milosovic was committing genocide suposedly in support of the christian serbs. There are a great many instances of hideous and grand scale crimes being committed by supposedly christian groups. But notice I use the word - ‘supposedly.’ That is because I basicly agree with you about what christianity SHOULD be about. at least at the core I do. All we know from recent history is that both Christians and Muslims are having problems with the fundamentalists within their ranks. You see, I have a few muslim friends who understand the Koran VERY differently than those who use it to justify the persecution of others. They are as disgusteed by such a practice as I am with those who would use the Bible as a weapon to foster intolerance and hatred. I believe the road to this kind of sin is begun when you start to think of your self as superior and thus fail the example Jesus made of love. Love of neighbor, enemy and all. If Christianity is to spread, that is how it SHOULD spread - by example not by prosletizing, hatred and intolerance.

RGF

Look.

One way or another, they’ve got to get used to us and we’ve got to get used to them. Neither side is going to change, and one side can never kill the other off.

RGF—

Hatred has no consistency with Christianity, which is as you say about love. Many Christians feel it is their duty to tell others about Jesus Christ. I do as well, though I look for invitation rather than any means of pushing my beliefs on others. In that way, its called….conversation, which is polite and ends when either side chooses.

Intolerance is such a fun word to use these days. I agree with its original intent, but I disagree with how many use it. Its come to mean that if you disagree with something, you shouldn’t say its wrong but rather should tolerate it. In the realm of the homosexual discussion, tolerance now means accepting homosexual values. Interestingly, those who seem to use the word ‘tolerance’ often seem to be intolerant of Christian ideas, which appear abhorrent to them. They are tolerant only of that which they support. Kinda silly.

JBOD,

“In the realm of the homosexual discussion, tolerance now means accepting homosexual values.”

I really don’t intend to hijack the intent of this thread, but I have to ask the question because you briught it up.

Just what the hell are “homosexual values”?

Please don’t bring up promiscuity, as gays are no more promiscuous than the general population.

The only real difference between you and them is the way they have sex.

Somehow I just can’t wrap my head around “sex” as a value.

That you would compare Christianity (or the abuses and misuses of Christianity) with the fanatical Islamic rioting that is going on speaks more to your ignorance of Christianity than anything. I don�€™t see how anyone knowledgable about Christianity could make that claim.

The KKK claims to act on behalf of Christianity. That’s the most visible, extreme use of Christianity to support violence in recent times. Neo-Nazis do as well, although to a lesser degree.

JBOD,

Rocky has a point. I grew up in TX. I saw ‘supposedly’ christian kids commit heinous acts of violence in Houston, against homosexuals because they somehow felt put upon by what they do in private. I am to this day EXTREMELY offended by the spiritual shalowness and un-empathetic thinking of those who call themselves PROTESTANT in this country. I don’t believe that American Protestantism is anything short of 180 degrees from what Jesus espoused, and yet I’m not out there screeming it and pushing for laws to outlaw protestantism. If you wish you to spread what you beleive, you must do so by EXAMPLE not by telling people that things they identify as being integral to themselves are things that are WRONG or SINFUL. If all you can do is pound those values in from the outside, then they are not real and will not last. Any significan change or understanding of anything must come from within or it isn’t worth anything at all. THAT IS WHY PROSLETIZING FAILS ON ITS FACE!!!

AS far as gay marriage goes, allowing a STATE to recognize a marriage is NOT THE SAME as somehow forcing your church to accept it. NOBODY is proposing a LAW to force ANYBODY’s CHURCH to accept gay marriage, so what skin is it off your nose?

If you intend to convince anybody of anything, you must first recognize their individual dignity as a human being. You cannot get anywhere by attack or by dehumanizing. This is, at the core, the wisdom of JESUS and very much the thing that the religious right is getting WRONG.

RGF

We are waaaaaay off the original string of this article’s argument now. The point I want to make is that the INTOLERANCE I see on the part of the religious right in this country is not very different from the intolerance of the fundamentalists in the Islamic world. The lesson to be learned here is one of basic human dignity and it there for US ALL to learn. The Sin of both of these kinds of fundamentalists is a sin of run-away PRIDE.

That does not mean that one is to be silent about about what one beleives or that anybody should fail to stand up for their beleifs. BUT there is a fine line between standing for your RELIGIOUS beleifs…and fostering a GOVERNMENTAL ENTITY that is, ultimately, unconstitutional.

I see what I think is the problem here for the religious right. If God is the ultimate morality, then how can the constitution or any law for that matter, espouse a moral course that is contrary to the bible or to God? That thinking leaves me with the obvious conclusion that it can’t. However we disagree as to what source is misunderstood. We’ve seen the firestorm associated with such arguments on these blogs before so if it needs to begin anew, so be it. I offer only this: listen to the core of what Jesus said. If you accept no other source, re-read the ACTUAL words of Jesus.

RGF

Rocky:

I’m not going to take this thread into the homosexuality discussion. That wasn’t my intent. I think you know what I refer to when I talk about homosexual values. I think homosexual sexual relations are wrong. That’s MY opinion. I’m not homophobic, I’m not hateful, I’m not intolerant; I simply have an opinion. Take out the word “values” if you prefer, and insert “activity”, or whatever word you think fits.

I’m not asking for you to agree with my beliefs in the interest of tolerance, nor am I expecting to have to agree with yours in the interest of tolerance. We can each have our own opinions, and be tolerant of each others’ right to them.

Unfortunately, for some, tolerance is simply forcing one group to believe what they believe rather than both groups allowing each other to have different beliefs.

JBOD,

It is precisely because of the diference between governmental action and Church action that the point you just make in the last part of your latest post is significant. It appears that it is the religious right that wishes to hijack governmental action to dis-allow gay marriage. It is perfectly ok for you to believe homosexual activity is wrong. It is not ok for you to use ANY governmental organisation or law to ram-rod that belief down the throats of others. If you don’t like gay marriage on relirious grounds, fine. Your church doesn’t have to accept it. Nobody cares about that. But it is not appropriate to dictate to judges or mayors who they can marry according to your religious beliefs.

RGF

JBOD,

“Take out the word �€œvalues�€ if you prefer, and insert �€œactivity�€, or whatever word you think fits.”

My question wasn’t meant to insult, or even to call into question your opinion.
It’s yours and your entitled to it.
Semantics sometimes plays an important role in how folks form an opinion.
As in, one man’s cartoon is another man’s blasphemy.
We need to choose our words carefully in today’s superheated political environment. Assuming that someone understands what you are saying has led us down the road we now travel in the Middle East.

Too many people use “Christian” and Christianity” in such a loose form that it defies imagination.

There are also people who label something “Christian” just because the event uses God or Jesus as a reference. For instance the use of the phrase “religious right” is a reference for Christian attitudes that are different from the one using the phrase. Does anybody think for just a moment that using the phrase “religious left” would be tolerated? Of couse not because we are to believe that we have only a “religious right” in this country. That goes along with “homosexual values”. One of the “values” of the homosexual movement is to destroy marriage as an institution that we have all come to know and thrive in. The homesexual mmovement is trying to ram “same sex unions” down our throats. They are doing this by not getting the legislation necessary to do it, but by going to activist judges who just thrill themselves to legislate from the bench. If they had such a noble cause and were so morally correct then why not seek the legislation to meet the necessary objectives. Now back to Chrisianity. Christianity and homosexual activity are directly opposed to each other.

Islamic beliefs are opposite Christianity. God and Allah are different. The God of Abraham is called God. Nowhere in Christian literature is there a reference that God and Allah are the same or that God and the Islamic god are the same. It just is not so. Muhammed is their prophet. Muhammed would not be the man that God would choose to deliver his message to mankind. One must study Muhammed the man to understand this. Man is man and is not without sin. Certain men were called righteous men by God and He used those men to deliver his message thru using the Hebrew, Aramic and Greek languages. That is where one can find the scriptures as God and Jesus proclaimed them thru the servants of God.

I think we need to come to the realization that “Christianity” does not mean the same thing to everyone who wears that label. Yes, there is a “religious left” in this country. I happen to be a Christian and my values lean strongly to the left, as I believe Christ taught in the Bible. I also disagree with the notion that homosexuality and Christianity are incompatible. Nothing could be further from the truth. I do not wish to get into a debate with tomh over this, as we have gone round and round on this topic before.

I�€™m sure you can find instances where Christians have done bad things�€”in fact, many of the things that you�€™ve listed. But lets look at it honestly, please. Are there instances of mass violence on the scale of the �€˜cartoon riots�€™ that you can point to? Are there instances where the violence spreads over multiple nations and regions of the world?

JBOD,

“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God�€™s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice�€� And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.” �€“Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” �€“Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

tomh,

Good grief , I don’t even know where to begin with this.

Allah and God ARE the same in the sense that the traditions of Islam, Judaism and Christianity are all descended from that passed down from the sons of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael.

How can you not kow this? When I study the life of Calvin, Luther, Henry the 8th, I don’t see anybody who looks like a messanger of God, either.

I’m guessing you haven’t studied much of Mohammad’s life or of the Koran, either for that matter. Certainly not open-mindedly with any empathy, anyway.

RGF

Christianity is as Christians do. Islam is as Muslims do. Both relgions have their followings who use the religion to support their own ends, not God’s, Jesus’s or Muhammed’s. Religion afterall, was realized by human beings and passed down by human beings. I have yet to meet a perfect human being, so I have yet to find a perfect religion. This is a view I find full of tolerance. Tolerance for each faith’s strengths to guide people toward a just and honorable way of living. I respect Christianity as a religion as much as I respect my own religion of Buddhims, and the same for all the world’s great religions.

I also find contempt for blind followers of these religions who hijack them for their own power or ego trips. The fundamentalists here and abroad are equally dangerous for they don’t question their actions or their consequences. The fundamentalists here are conditioned by the Civil War to believe that insurrection, rioting, and civil disorder will not win them their power or ego trip goals. The fundamentalists in the Middle East and elsewhere, are not so conditioned, and their history is full of examples where insurrection and violence have paid off huge dividends.

But beware of them both, their methods are different, but, their ends are the same, to rid the world of, or at least isolate those who, do not see things there way. That is my definition of intolerance.

steve k, brought up a valid point.a mosgue vandalized,im my eyes is just as bad as a synagogue, or a church,all faiths, all cultures,have done some horrific things when they fell of the edge. i am not a muslim, but ive opened my mind up and looked in the QURAN, holy cow! there are 176 verses that mention MOSES, the quran says very nice things about king david and king solomon, beautiful songs and words about jesus.but like anything else when you just limit yourself to a few pages, instead of a whole book that goes for any book bible, quran , talmud ,torah(LAW OF MOSES) and any other book, you get yourself in trouble, this is a global community,like it or not.

Rocky:

No offense taken. I’ve tried using various words to describe my opinions. Homosexuality, homosexual lifestyle, homosexual activity, homosexual agenda, homosexual nature….and so on. I try not to use them pejoratively, but people seem to want to take them that way. Perhaps you have a better wording for me to use.

I link homosexual actions together with promiscuity and adultery, because all three are sexually based actions which I find equally wrong. I’m not sure of the right way to categorize them.

RGF:

I’m not linking religion and government together, as you seem to suggest. But don’t take it so far that people’s personal beliefs cannot be put into action by government. Most people feel murder is wrong, but not necessarily for religious purposes.

There are those who believe abortion to be wrong, for example, but not for religious reasons. Some simply believe that life is important and that abortion takes away life, so they are against it. They may push for legislation to corroborate their beliefs, without religion having any part of it.

The separation between church and state was intended to keep the government from establishing a national religion. It was never expected that people should govern in the absence of religious thought, opinion and belief.

JayJay:

Not sure how you find Christianity and homosexuality compatible, but perhaps in a different thread, we’ll explore that. I’d be interested in understanding the justification you use. As far as the Hitler quotes, there will always be those fringe people who misuse religion for their own purposes. The difference is that I would declare that Hitler was not a Christian, despite his words. I don’t hear any Muslims making that declaration about the terrorists or proponents of the cartoon violence. If they are out there, they need to speak more loudly.

David:

Christianity is as Christians do. Islam is as Muslims do.

Thanks Forrest. :) I agree with what you said, but I wonder if we prepared a list of who the blind followers are, whether our lists would include the same groups.

RGF,
I live in Plano, Tx, I know where that Mosque is, and it probably was vandalized by a few idiots on the days after 9/11, but there were not 10,000 or 50,000 or even 50 people protesting in the streets of Plano demanding death to Muslims. Name the instances where you have proof that Right Wing Fundementalist Christians destroyed houses of worship, and as Joe said, lets remember to keep it this century. Please don’t be so vapid as to compare a Christian who is offended by a piece of art or flag burning with 50,000 Muslims marching in the street demanding death for a cartoonist. Or how about when Muslims actually do kill Christians? We Christians here in Plano aren’t out killing Muslims. My last interaction with a Muslim was when my neighbor who owns a flooring store installed carpet in my house. Pretty horrific, huh?

If they continue to insist on war with the West or the US, they will eventually get it. They will learn as all our enemies have learned that the US can be the most generous friend or the most vicious enemy you could have. The good news is that THEY get to decide which it will be.

Not sure how you find Christianity and homosexuality compatible, but perhaps in a different thread, we�€™ll explore that. I�€™d be interested in understanding the justification you use.

JBOD,

I have discussed my beliefs on the subject at great lengths in different threads here, perhaps it will be brought up again in a more appropriate thread. Just remember, thing are not always as they seem.

“Separation of Church and State” is not part of the Constitution of these United States or of any separate state. It is only a phrase used in a letter by Thomas Jefferson. When one uses that phrase they should look at the historical context in which it was written. Allah is not GOD!!!!! Not in any sense. I have studies enough to know the difference. When I say a messenger of God, I mean the men in the Bible who wrote the various books.

Kind of reminds me about the blow up surrounding Maplethorp… after all, those are just photos.

As far as the Hitler quotes, there will always be those fringe people who misuse religion for their own purposes. The difference is that I would declare that Hitler was not a Christian, despite his words.

JBOD,

Whether or not anyone would consider Hitler a Christian is really not the point. The Point is that Hitler thought of himself as a Christian and used Christian fundamentalism to justify his actions. Much the same way that terrorists justify their actions with Islamic fundamentalism. Much the same way that the “Christian” right uses Christian fundamentalism to justify their actions.

Re David R’s postings:

If you did not know of any synagouges being vandalized by Christians, why did you accuse them of it? Mosques are not synagouges,they are places of worship for Moslems. Since 9/11 was committed entirely by Moslems, people were irked. No excuse for attacking the mosques, but the Imam was not killed, unlike a couple of Catholic priests in Turkey the other day.

Still no excuse, but you may recall that immediately after 9/11 Pres Bush and other US leaders went on TV, met with Moslem clergymen, etc to stress that we were not holding Islam responsible for 9/11. I have not seen a single Arab political or religious leader in the Middle East do the same re this flap over some cartoons. The cartoons, incidentally killed no one, and historical movies made in the Middle East routinely show the hero spitting on a cross, etc.

Net, net, there is no moral equivalency between our intolerance and theirs. Fundamentalist Islam is at the stage where Christianity was before the 15th Century (when Islam may have been operating on a higher moral plane than Christianity),and I would argue that Islam regressed since the 15th Century, while the West had the Reformation, etc.

Charles Kovacs

You people are something else. Comparing Christians to Muslims is apples to oranges. Allah and Jehovah are not the same. Islam wasn’t even founded until 900 AD (approximately). The God of Abraham is the God of the Jews and the Christians. Jesus is accepted as the Messiah by the Christians and a teacher by the Jews and the Muslims. The Bible and the Torah share 5 books. The Qoran shares nothing with either even though some of the stories are similar. ALL THREE RELIGIONS preach peace, love and brotherhood WITH MEMBERS OF THIER OWN BELIEF. Islam advocates jihad (holy war) against ALL infidels (non- muslims) and calls for either thier conversion or their death. Black and white, either or. No wiggle room. Jews are born, not made. Sure, one can convert and follow the precepts but are never considered more than a gentile. Christians (fundamentalists as well as more liberal donominations like the Catholics) promote evangalization - spreading the Gospel through programs, good works, and instruction. Christians are probably the most open to outsiders (read tolerant). Christians promote hating the sin, not the sinner. Anyone who says differently is not conversant with Biblical teachings. Remember, just because someone claims to be a Christian doesn’t make him so. There has to be evidence of Christian values in the way of life of the person. Buddists, Hindus, and the like are an entirely different study - the mores, values and life style is completely different and should be viewed separately.

So my point, you ask? Jews have had to fight for thier survival for no other reason than that they are Jews. Christians are held to an incredibly high standard by intolerant non-Christians who expect us to behave “better” and forget that we are still sinful humans. Muslims have a long and bloody history that contiues to this day and shows signs of actually going to extreams that make the Spanish Inquisition look like a minor disagreement among friends. Islamic extreamists don’t care about tolerance, free speech, personal rights, human rights or non-violent response to disagreements. They want us DEAD. They want the Jews DEAD. They are willing to do anything, including DIE to acheive thier goals. Until people in this country actually understand that agenda we will continue to have stupid, meaningless discussions that answer nothing and do nothing to stop the violence.

JayJay,

Hitler proved his NON-CHRISTIAN behavior. Please stop referring to that murdering ass as a Christian. A Christian lives his life according to the tenents of his faith. Period.

Mar 7, Denver, Synagogue vandalized with swastikas painted on it.

August 22/23, 2004 - Calgary �€“ Vandals sprayed swastikas and anti-Semitic messages on a condominium complex a block from the Calgary Jewish Center.

June 27, 2004 �€“ Toronto - Vandals spray painted anti-Semitic graffiti on bus shelters, sidewalks, private vehicles and fences in a Toronto suburb.

June 19/20, 2004 �€“ Nepean �€“ A synagogue was vandalized in an Ottawa suburb. Congregation Beth Shalom West was defaced with graffiti, swastikas and anti-Semitic slogans.

June 2/3, 2004 — Quebec City — Twenty gravestones were toppled by vandals in the historic Beth Israel cemetery. The cemetery is designated a national historic site by the Canadian government.

April 14, 2004 �€“ Toronto - A Jewish cemetery was vandalized during Passover. Ten tombstones were overturned at The Pape Avenue Cemetery, the oldest Jewish cemetery in Ontario.

April 20, 2005 — Newcastle �€“ A synagogue was spray-painted with swastikas and Holocaust references such as “Hitler was ‘ere”, “Jews must die” and “Six million more.” Nine windows were smashed and eggs were thrown at the building. The attack took place in the eve of the anniversary of Hitler’s birthday. Stickers advertising the extremist group White Pride Coalition Australia were found at the scene.

Then there were the Synagogue descrations and arsons in the 1950’s and 1960’s accompanied by the Red Scare, the KKK, and the civil rights movement.

Got google, use it! I use Copernic, myself.

Ilsa,

I never refered to Hitler as a Christian, Hitler refered to Hitler as a Christian. Many people who claim to be Christians are not. My comparisons were not true Christians to true Muslims, the comparison was between the way different extremist groups have used religion to justify their actions.

tomh,rgf was right, abram who god later called abraham, is considered the father of the jewish, christian and muslim peoples the eldest son of abraham,was ishmael whos mother was hagar an egyptian lady. abrahams son isaac, mothers name was sarah. to make a long story short they got in to a fight abraham casted hager and ishmael out to the desert where there was no water. hagar prayed, and god created a well of water,the muslim people trace there roots to ishmael, now about no reference by christians to allah, no you would not see any. the bible started about 6,000, years ago, and the christian faith started appx 2,006 years ago. the muslim faith started about 1,400 years ago. so you would not see any christian reference to allah or god.

To anyone who thinks that these world religions are not vastly similar, you are ignoring one very volatile but unifying thing: location location location. Pretty much every world religion grew out of this very small spot of land. The stories and blood of the people who started each are completely intermixed.

Ask the Irish how much difference there is between the Protestants and the Catholics, and it will be night and day. Read the history and the bible of each, and these are hardly distinguishable.

We always have the most bitter conflicts who those most like ourselves.

when i think of that rotten ass hitler, i think of the movie little nicky, where every night hitler must stand before satan and bend over and a pineapple goes up his rearend backwards!!!

tomh,

Separation of church and state is directly from the establishment clause of the First Ammendment, in the Bill of Rights:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

You see, it means that ALL religion is represented by this ammendment. Government cannot recognize religion over another without violation of this ammendment. Don’t beleive me? look the well established case law! I run it down for you here, but it would be HUGE…and that’s just the stuff that is now totally accepted and well established.

The problem arises when many on this neocon right wish to push the idea that if a law or governmental action is somehow just generically christian in a way that does not represent one specific christian church, that it will somehow pass constituional muster. Nope. It wont. We have Americans who represent ALL world faiths.

Why are there so many on the right side of the political spectrum these days with so little understanding of the Constitution and of American law? I find this to be true, over and over and over again and it always disturbing to me.

RGF

These folks have never had the same freedoms that we enjoy.
This isn�€™t like taking capitalism to the Soviet Union.
This is dragging a stone age mentality kicking and screaming into the 21st century, and it would appear that they aren�€™t going willingly.
-rocky

Amen to that rocky, but its absolutely necessary we drag them into the 21st century. Imagine if the Ottoman Empire had nukes.

And yes, Hitler said he was Catholic (when talking to Catholics). Then he said he was Lutheran (when talking to Lutherans). Then he said he wouldn’t invade anyone after Poland…

This not a separation statement. This is a statement that keeps the state from forming it’s own church. “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;” The problem is that the judicial side has continualy made laws that have prohibited the free exercise (ie prayer in schools) While mandatory prayer for all students may be wrong. The courts took the law and bent it the other way.

But how this discussion got to this point is cramazing.

Yes Christian extremist have done horrible acts of violence. But comparing Christianity to Islam is night and day.

The KKK, Hitler, and extreme Fundamentist are not true followers of Christ.

As to Islamics and extremist Islamics they are one and the same. Thats why mullahs have not stopped the violence in the streets.

Thats why there has not been a stop to the violence in Israel and Iraq.

There will not be a stopping to the violence until the ‘so called’ true Islamics demand it. Then there wwill be a Holy war in the Middle East between the true Islamics and the extremist.

You can come to America and talk and walk like an american but you are still a follower of Islam and it calls for the destruction of all unbelievers. PERIOD. No if’s and or but’s.

I nor anyone else can change what you believe. Because this is America. But in Islam you can die for not believing.

And I fear that is coming to america. But not by Islam but by those in America who hate Christians and Christianity.

I do not understand the right’s hatred for Christianity.

uh…McMinn,

did you read my earlier posts?
The prayer in school issue is about pounding square pegs into round holes. It’s being tried in ways that create problems, not solve them. I hope you don’t believe in a GOD that would approve of being USED in such a way. Yes that’s what I said…the way prayer in school is being tried is USING GOD in a way that is shallow and sinfully prideful.

If you are silly enough to believe there is no difference between Muslims and extremist Muslims then you don’t have any idea what Islam is about. For instance, I have repeatedly heard the accusation that Islam is essentially mysogenist. That is crap form those who don’t even try to understand! Are aware that the Qoran actually proposes that a house that cannot afford to send all its children to school, should favor the daughters for the sake of family stability? It’s there for you to find! …but you first have to actually be curious enough to look into what it is about rather than just spouting the venom you have been blindly handed. If you purport to be Christian, then you must BE Christian in your actions toward EVERYONE…even and perhaps especially, Muslims.

As for the prayer in school thing…get a grip. That is not in any way protected by the establishment clause. Read the case law if you understand its all out there for those who CARE about this country of ours.

RGF

There’s a couple of things the west does have going for it that the Middle East does not. Firstly, freedom of speech and expresion. Secondly, education (outside of religious tenents). If these two things were taken away and one was brought up in a manner many of these folks were, one could better understand why they do what they do.

I don’t condone what they are doing…in any way. I simply mention this so that maybe we try to understand WHY they do what they do. Will they ever change? That’s the million dollar question.

i like to bet a lot of people on this one. who was the father of the united states constitution? jefferson? no. hamilton? no. adams? no. patrick henry? no. franklin? no. ok it had to be john jay? no.ceasar rodney?no.george mason? no. ok damm it who was it? ok it was james madison all 5 foot 4 inches of him. madison argued for a bill of rights his biggest foe was alexander hamilton. madison won out. james madison and thomas jefferson also created the democratic-republican party. the party favored a strict construction of the constitution and A (HELLO GUYS) A weaker federal goverment!

RGF,

“Separation of church and state” does NOT come from the 1st Amendment. It comes from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to a Baptist preacher in Danbury, Conn. 13 years after the 1st Amendment was ratified. Jefferson used the phrase “wall of separation between church and state” to reassure the preacher that there was nothing in the new constitution that would interfere with the free exercise of religion.
Early American history is filled with references to the importance of religion in public life.
The purpose of the 1st Amendment is to protect religion from government, not the other way round. It forbids passage of laws requiring everyone to practice the same religion. It does not forbid the public exercise of religion. Many of America’s founders were devout Christians who would not have tolerated the creation of an atheist government.
You make reference to case law but I would suggest you learn something about the Supreme Law.(the U.S. Constitution) The Federalist Papers and the Antifederalist Papers make a good starting point.
Why are there so many on the left side of the political spectrum these days with so little understanding of the Constitution-the Supreme Law of the Land?
I find this to be true, over and over and over again and it is always disturbing to me.

steve,agreed. the two most interpreted and misinterpreted, are the first and the second amendments. i sugesst everyone buy a pocket copy at your nearest book store .most members of the senate have a copy , and they still debate the contents of it. thank god or whatever you believe we can debate it.thats our great system that we all have.

For David R:

Thanks for the list, but what is the connection between the attacks and fundamentalist US Christians?

Charles Kovacs

>>Why are there so many on the left side of the political spectrum these days with so little understanding of the Constitution-the Supreme Law of the Land?
I find this to be true, over and over and over again and it is always disturbing to me.

Posted by: steve at February 28, 2006 12:54 AM

steve,

I’m sitting here with you post and my copy of the Constitution of the United States…I see NOYHING that would indicate that this nation is a CHRISTIAN nation. If it is not a CHRISTIAN nation and the Constitution states, “Congress shall make no law respectingan establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;”, which does not even MENTION Christianity…

>>As to Islamics and extremist Islamics they are one and the same. Thats why mullahs have not stopped the violence in the streets.

McMinn,

As to Christians and extremist Christians they are one and the same. Thats why evangalists have not stopped the violent rhetoric, family clinic bombings, sniper killings of gynacologists, porposals that we kill certain foriegn leaders, suppositions strokes that fell leaders are God sent, towns that practice democracy will not have God’s protections, etc., etc.

Looking at it like that, do you see how silly your post sounds to reasoning people?

>>I never refered to Hitler as a Christian, Hitler refered to Hitler as a Christian. Many people who claim to be Christians are not. My comparisons were not true Christians to true Muslims, the comparison was between the way different extremist groups have used religion to justify their actions.

Posted by: JayJay Snowman at February 27, 2006 08:08 PM

jj,

One of the greatest blots on the Lutheran sect of the Christian religion is the assistance it gave to one of its practitioners…Adolph Hitler, and his pogram to eliminate the Jewish people. That church and the Catholic church are still apologizing today

I’m sorry jj, I hit the mouse button before I finished that post…That church and the Catholic church are still apologizing today for their part in betraying Jews, advancing Hitler’s pogram and funnelling stolen valuables for Hitler’s henchmen. When Christians say to quit using the Inquisition and or the Crusades to depict Christian violence…use the Holacaust.

Religion cannot be trusted to keep peace. When groups of them band together, innocent people are tortured and many die, and many times war breaks out. That’s a violent bunch…

Be careful, you’re starting to sound like a authentic conservative American, what the neocons call “Liberal”. I am one of those also, embarrassed by the current “Neocon” government, but I’ve always consider myself a conservative until our current government stole control of the US.

Marysdude,
To understand the Constitution one must understand the historical context in which it was written. If you will study the lives of the founders, the ratification debates, contemporaneous newspaper editorials, the Federalist Papers, the Antifederalist Papers and many, many other sources it quickly becomes evident that America is, indeed, a Christian nation.
It was created by a group of very wise Christian men who included in the Supreme Law a requirement that ALL religions must be tolerated. Prior to the adoption of the Constitution sectarian intolerance was rampant and often deadly. The concept of freedom of religion existed only within Freemasonry. Many of the founders were Masons and freedom of religion is a fundamental Masonic tenet.
In your next post you quoted the ravings of one lunatic to paint all of Chrisianity with a broad brush.You then went on to repeat a lie about the Catholic church.(I’m not Catholic)The pope is known to have helped save over 2000 Jews. I can’t speak to the guilt of the Lutherans as I’ve never heard that claim before.
You are right that religion cannot be trusted to keep peace. That’s why we have a secular government guided by Christian principles.(based on the ten commandments)
“The Constitution was written for a moral people. It is wholly unsuited for any other.”-Franklin(if I remember correctly)

If you look at the history of Christians, they have been more violent, done more “ethnic” cleansing, and have a hsitory of intolerance more widespread than Islam! It is “religion” that causing the bigotry, no just Islam. Religions are devisive and intolerant are the easy way for humans to express their weak reactions to those they don’t agree with. If you believe in G-d, or you join a “religion” to convince yourself of a higher purpose, only to be shown weak and wicked ways.

>>�€œThe Constitution was written for a moral people. It is wholly unsuited for any other.�€-Franklin(if I remember correctly)

Posted by: steve at February 28, 2006 09:04 AM

steve,

That’s one of the most arrogant things I’ve heard lately. Are you actually saying morality can’t happen outside Christianity?

Christianiy CAN be moral, but most Christians are NOT, while many non-Christians ARE. The Constitution may require morality, but it does not require Christianity, and in fact Christianity may be harmful to it. Your statement that the Constitution is based on the Ten Commaandments is a case in point. What reference in the Constitution says we shall have no other God before it? Where does it state that we should not covet? What idols are we not allowed to worship? When those are added, the Constitution becomes a worthless document for governance.

>>Why are there so many on the left side of the political spectrum these days with so little understanding of the Constitution-the Supreme Law of the Land?
I find this to be true, over and over and over again and it is always disturbing to me.

Posted by: steve at February 28, 2006 12:54 AM

>>Marysdude,
To understand the Constitution one must understand the historical context in which it was written. If you will study the lives of the founders, the ratification debates, contemporaneous newspaper editorials, the Federalist Papers, the Antifederalist Papers and many, many other sources it quickly becomes evident that America is, indeed, a Christian nation.

steve

Okay, which is it? Is the Constitution the supreme law of the land, or is it not? If we take into consideration all the arguments and discussions that took place leading up to the written word, and then ignore the written word, are we not just fooling ourselves into believing the document itself is not important.

If we could all agree on the legal ramifications of the Constitution, we would not need the Supreme Court. The framers knew that, and that’s why they wrote the requirement for the three branches into it.

But, if it is the supreme law of the land, and it does not mention Christianity, we must assume that this nation is NOT a Christian nation, and for that I’ll be forever greatful…Christianity sucks.

Marysdude,
Apparently, you’re incapable of thinking beyond your concrete perception of the printing on the page.
It’s been my experience that most people are moral to the best of their ability, Christian or not. Your statement that most Christians are not and that Christianity may be harmful to the Constitution (did you forget that it was written by Christians?) shows a strong antiChristian bias.
Jesus’ ministry teaches the application of the ten commandments in our everyday lives. The U.S. Constitution is the socio-political expression of the moral principles embodied in the ten commandments.
No, the Constitution doesn’t forbid covetousness or idolatry. There are two reasons for this. In the first place, the Constitution doesn’t restrict the people, it restricts the government. In the second, the Constitution isn’t based on the explicit Decalog, but on the moral principles it embodies.
Grasping this concept requires a depth of thought I’ve commonly found to be sorely lacking in most leftists(or liberals if you prefer).

“Grasping this concept requires a depth of thought I�€™ve commonly found to be sorely lacking in most leftists(or liberals if you prefer).”

And exactly what kind of bias does this show?

>>Grasping this concept requires a depth of thought I�€™ve commonly found to be sorely lacking in most leftists(or liberals if you prefer).

Posted by: steve at February 28, 2006 12:28 PM

steve,

On these blog sites, only Jack says things in a more arrogant manner. I’ll say to you as I say to him…the only time you talk down to people is when you open you mouth or type words on a page. Disagreement with what you say does NOT constitute ignorance OR stupidity. Both of you are ‘rightists’ or Repugs if you prefer…but that’s not MY problem, it’s yours.

But, if it is the supreme law of the land, and it does not mention Christianity, we must assume that this nation is NOT a Christian nation, and for that I�€™ll be forever greatful�€�Christianity sucks.
…..
Woah.
First of all The direction of the words used in framing the laws that we live under are there because of what the morality was and still is today. The supreme court is there to moderate the ebbs and flows that we go through and keeps us from shredding it up everytime there is a new congress in town. Thats why the justices are lifetime appointed, one of the reasons anyway. Your bitter arguements and venom for christianity are disturbing.

It is fascinating and amusing to me, the mental and philosophical contortions people can put themselves through.

JBOD and Ilsa, in different ways, say much the same thing. People who cloak themselves in Christian guise and do evil things are not true Christians. That sounds really nice and all, and is certainly very Platonic, but doesn’t get us too far, since there’s no definitive answer to the question of what constitutes “true Christianity.”

But that’s not even the real problem. That someone can CLAIM to hold some belief and act inconsistently with those beliefs is profoundly obvious. Certainly, people claim to be Christian (Hitler, Fred Phelps, Pat Robertson) and act in horrible ways.

In this way, folks like Ilsa absolve Christianity from the evil acts done in its name. Great. And then folks like Ilsa (and, I regret to say, JBOD) go on to tar Mulisms with the brush of collective guilt. This is Ilsa:

“Muslims have a long and bloody history that contiues to this day and shows signs of actually going to extreams that make the Spanish Inquisition look like a minor disagreement among friends. Islamic extreamists don�€™t care about tolerance, free speech, personal rights, human rights or non-violent response to disagreements. They want us DEAD.”

And this, not his finest moment, is JBOD:

“The difference is that I would declare that Hitler was not a Christian, despite his words. I don�€™t hear any Muslims making that declaration about the terrorists or proponents of the cartoon violence. If they are out there, they need to speak more loudly.”

One thing that really yanks my chain is when people are told to reject the statements or actions of other people. I don’t believe anyone of us has to distance ourselves specifically from the statements of Michael Moore or Rush Limbaugh.

By the same token, I don’t think that self-identified Christians have to distance themselves or specifically condemn abortion clinic bombers or Fred Phelps. Faith is as faith does, and I believe those who quietly live their faith and serve as examples to others are truly Christ-like.

The same goes for the vast majority of Muslims, who lead lives in tune with mainstream interpretations of the Koran. They want the same things mainstream Christians do, fundamentally, and most of them just went on with their daily lives. I posted this link last week, I hate to do so again, but here goes. Salon.com published an article called: “The Moroccan street: No to violence, no to Western disrespect,” available at:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/02/09/morocco/

I think we could communicate with each other a lot better if people would stop asking others to apologize for or distance themselves from the shrill and unthoughtful who claim to speak in the name of the many. It just seems contortionist to absolve Christianity from the evil acts of some, and go on to excoriate all Muslims in the same breath,

tony,
It shows a bias against inanity and those who practice it.

Marysdude,
You’re still not thinking beyond your perception of the printing on the page.
The arguments and discussion leading up to the written words help us to understand the words. First, you have to know the definition of the words. Try looking up “establishment” sometime.
I often discuss things with people with whom I disagree. I often learn something or find it necessary to rethink my position. Many of the people I disagree with are very smart and make a lot of sense.
I’ve never been tolerant of ostentatious displays of ignorance.

Steve,

“You�€™re still not thinking beyond your perception of the printing on the page. The arguments and discussion leading up to the written words help us to understand the words. First, you have to know the definition of the words.”

So, we have to move past the meaning of the words on the pages (Justices Scalia, Thomas, et. al. disagree), and to do that, the definitions of the words on the pages help us understand the arguments and discussions that lead to the words on the pages?

So what you’re really saying is that we have to interpret the Constitution to mean what you want it to mean and anything else is an example of inanity or the fundamental lack of reasoning skills you see in “leftists (or liberals if you prefer).”

This is exactly the kind of critical thinking I see in many of my freshman students who graduated with C- averages from awful rural high schools in the Missouri bootheel. I recommend you revise for clarity and content and resubmit. This is not your best work, I imagine.

And if you really do want to have a deep discussion of Constitutional principles, please bring it, it’ll be fun.

Arr-squared,

You have spoken truth. THe way you put it is better than I was attempting to do. Thank you for that. It still bothers me that there are those out willing to discount the evil done by those close to themselves and yet jump to generalizations about others without even TRYING to inform themselves of the possible bias of those who fed them the rediculous bogotry in the first place. This whole blog is full of comments by those who think nothing of hurling broad, willfully ignorant generalizations about Muslims but yet have NEVER tried to inform themselves about Islam at all. No small wonder the civil rights era was so violent and difficult.

RGF

As to Christians and extremist Christians they are one and the same.

Marysdude,

I very much disagree. It may seem that way because extremist Christians are in the forefront pushing their lies on the masses all the time, but they do not represent true Christians by any stretch of the imagination. Remember that the meek shall inherit the earth not the blowhards.

Steve,

This country was founded as thirteen separate colonies. Each colony had it’s own laws regarding religion. Virginia was established as a Christian state. Pennsylvania and New York were established as secular states. When the Constitution was being formed Thomas Jefferson admired how much better and less violent the secular experiment worked in those states. From notes on Virginia; QUERY XVII: The different religions received into that state?

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned: yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth. Let us reflect that it is inhabited by a thousand millions of people. That these profess probably a thousand different systems of religion. That ours is but one of that thousand. That if there be but one right, and ours that one, we should wish to see the 999 wandering sects gathered into the fold of truth. But against such a majority we cannot effect this by force. Reason and persuasion are the only practicable instruments. To make way for these, free inquiry must be indulged; and how can we wish others to indulge it while we refuse it ourselves. But every state, says an inquisitor, has established some religion. “No two, say I, have established the same.” Is this a proof of the infallibility of establishments? Our sister states of Pennsylvania and New York, however, have long subsisted without any establishment at all. The experiment was new and doubtful when they made it. It has answered beyond conception. They flourish infinitely. Religion is well supported; of various kinds indeed, but all good enough; all sufficient to preserve peace and order: or if a sect arises whose tenets would subvert morals, good sense has fair play, and reasons and laughs it out of doors, without suffering the state to be troubled with it. They do not hang more male-factors than we do. They are not more disturbed with religious dissentions. On the contrary, their harmony is unparallelled, and can be ascribed to nothing but their unbounded tolerance, because there is no other circumstance in which they differ from every nation on earth. They have made the happy discovery, that the way to silence religious disputes, is to take no notice of them. Let us too give this experiment fair play, and get rid, while we may, of those tyrannical laws. It is true we are as yet secured against them by the spirit of the times. I doubt whether the people of this country would suffer an execution for heresy, or a three years imprisonment for not comprehending the mysteries of the trinity. But is the spirit of the people an infallible, a permanent reliance? Is it government? Is this the kind of protection we receive in return for the rights we give up? Besides, the spirit of the times may alter, will alter. Our rulers will become corrupt, our people careless. A single zealot may commence persecuter, and better men be his victims. It can never be too often repeated, that the time for fixing every essential right on a legal basis is while our rulers are honest, and ourselves united. From the conclusion of this war we shall be going down hill. It will not then be necessary to resort every moment to the people for support. They will be forgotten therefore, and their rights disregarded. They will forget themselves, but in the sole faculty of making money, and will never think of uniting to effect a due respect for their rights. The shackles, therefore, which shall not be knocked off at the conclusion of this war, will remain on us long, will be made heavier and heavier, till our rights shall revive or expire in a convulsion.

Wow, Thomas Jefferson was a very wise man who could see into the future. Other evidence that the country was not founded on Christianity is the US Treaty with Tripoli, signed into law just 10 years after the U.S. Constitution was ratified:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

In fact the Constitution was much more influenced by the Iroquois Confederation than by Christianity.

Benjamin Hackett:

Number 1, Iran and Syria did not start this rioting. Our wonderful “ally” Saudi Arabia did. The cartoons were drawn in September of last year. How come nothing happened then?

In January of this year, several hundred pilgrims to Mecca were killed in riots. So Saudi Arabia decided to change the subject and urged Islamic countries to object to the cartoons. Saudi Arabia instigated Syria and Iran as well as many other countries.

Number 2, yes, it’s wonderful we have free speech. But this does not mean you should insult people. It does not mean that you should insult their religion. Free speech alone is not a virtue; free speech must be combined with compassion.

Religious people on the right feel insulted when others use their free speech to call them fools or worse. Similarly, secular people are insulted when religious people denigrate them.

If we are to get along with others of different ideas and of different religions, we must consider their feelings when exercising our free speech.

Even if people are offended, they have no right to riot and kill people. But please remember, our “ally” Saudi Arabia started the whole thing.

Jay Jay,

Using a treaty between two parties as arguement for our roots is wrong. Treaties are made in order to establish a relationship, that Art.11 statement was made to bring together two different thinking cultures when we were weaker and had to bend in order to get commerce moving for our country. In order to get what you want you have to sometimes acquiesce to get what you want. That wahat was done here.

Arr-squared,
You missed my point. By understanding the hisorical context we may know the original intent.(sound familiar?)

JayJay,
Thirteen separate colonies founded this country, not the other way round. Some colonies had very oppressive religious laws. The speech you cite is one of many good arguments for the establishment clause.
I didn’t say America was founded on Christianity, I said it was founded by Christians based on Christian moral principles.
The Iroquois Confederation had a big influence on the structure and form of the Constitution and government. The moral arguments are Christian.

The Muslim reaction to these cartoons is inhuman. Clearly they have no understanding of human rights. The Bush administrations’ reaction to the Abu Ghraib is inhuman. Clearly they have no understanding of human rights. Not saying they are the same. Just saying Bushies will get all worked up over anything as long as it wasn’t done by the great leader.

Would any conservative that cares to reply please answer this question. The CIA describes administration approved waterboarding being:

“bound to an inclined board, feet raised, head below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner’s face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt.”

If this were done to an American soldier would you consider it torture? Yes or no?

I’m shocked at the way Muslims are behaving about these cartoons, but if these same protests were about the torture in Abu Ghraib I wouldn’t have been surprised at all.

>>>>As to Islamics and extremist Islamics they are one and the same. Thats why mullahs have not stopped the violence in the streets.

McMinn,

As to Christians and extremist Christians they are one and the same.

JJ,

My post was in response to McMinn. I just changed a couple of his words to show a relationship.

>>I�€™ve never been tolerant of ostentatious displays of ignorance.

Posted by: steve at February 28, 2006 01:14 PM

steve,

Okay…

Max,
I’m very conservative and I agree with you completely. I’ve always maintained that anyone who thinks the Bush administration is conservative hasn’t been paying attention. They are internationalists with no respect for or loyalty to American ideals of fairness or justice.
Neoconservatism has its origins in Trotskyism and I believe it’s true to its roots.

“It shows a bias against inanity and those who practice it.”

Ohhh. I thought it was just showing a bias against people not like yourself. Inanity and those who practice it… hmmm. And you still seem to have so much outward self confidence.

Marysdude
You offered that Christianity sucks. May I offer that you are looking at people who say they are Christian and not of the Christian principles as established in the Bible. I offer that because too many people look at people for any moral fiber and are found wanting. It just shows the faliblity of man. I practice Christianity. I also fail daily in my walk. I do have a source to go to to ask forgiveness for my errors. That gives me the peace I need to continue. I also don’t do guilt trips. I just strive towards perfection knowing that on this earth I will never be perfect.

Treaties are made in order to establish a relationship, that Art.11 statement was made to bring together two different thinking cultures when we were weaker and had to bend in order to get commerce moving for our country. In order to get what you want you have to sometimes acquiesce to get what you want. That wahat was done here.

Adam,

Lying to get what you want. That sounds like a real Christian principle there.

Thirteen separate colonies founded this country, not the other way round. Some colonies had very oppressive religious laws. The speech you cite is one of many good arguments for the establishment clause. I didn�€™t say America was founded on Christianity, I said it was founded by Christians based on Christian moral principles. The Iroquois Confederation had a big influence on the structure and form of the Constitution and government. The moral arguments are Christian.

Steve,

I don’t even know what this means. It’s kinda like double talk. What moral arguments are you talking about? Where are these moral principles found? Certainly not in government.

not to change the subject,but listen to these bad people, like hitler, kkk, nazis, hate mongers when they spew their poison under the banner of christianity. kill everyone who does not believe in the bible and the new testiment! well you folks better find something else to hide from, jesus was jewish!, and your bible, your flapping around was written by jewish people from front to back! wake up CALL!!

Bad, Evil, etc. behavior is not that exclusive trait of any one administration, religion or belief system. I have met quality people in a variety of places around the world. I have also met awful people in a variety of places around the world. Whether they were Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Athiest, Agnostic, Communist, Socialist, etc. made no difference. The resounding trait of the ones I avoided was their intolerance for anything other than what they believed (or professed to believe). Hypocrites abound. That’s life!

In reading this post, both camps are holding so tightly to their own beliefs that they begin to sound intolerant in their own right. Both left and right! The name calling, painting with broad brushes and vitriol is clearly not necessary.

I am constantly amazed at the high level of intellect that can be found on this site and hope that the discussion can remain intellectual rather than a finger pointing session. I know, I’m an idealist, but one can hope………I’m sure reality will slap me in the face. So be it.

Keep the debate alive!

JayJay,
My sentence concerning Christianity was poorly constructed and contradictory. I admit my error and retract the statement. I still assert that America is a Christian nation. As for the moral arguments and principles, look in the writings of the founders and other contemporaneous writings on the Constitution. This is that depth of thought thing I referred to earlier.

rodney brown,
I’m glad you said that. Most people don’t seem to realize that Jesus is a Jew and that Judaism is Christianity’s foundation.

I’m glad that some responded to my input. Yet sarcasism is hard to relay in the written word. But I got the responses I expected.

1) my reference to prayer in schools was just one example. But to disagree with one, Most case law on school prayer has been over turned except for mandatory prayer which no one should demand.

2) My statement about Muslims and extremist muslims being one in the same. Is a true belief of mine. Just because you know someone as being a good person doesn’t make that person a good person. Esp. when there Koran teaches the death of all infidels. You can debate this all you want but the truth is is the truth. By the way, what is the definition of “good”.

3) I believe that Christianity has many things to answer for. But the hatred of Christians has become the mantra of the socialist left.

I can not realy debate with such scholars as jayjay, marysdude,or rgh.

Only they have studied the Koran and have the godly insights into the minds of others.

One must read and understand the writing to debate the writing.

And who doesn’t know that Christ was a jew and the writers of the Old and New Teastamnet were Jews but thanks for informing the ignorant.

i think this has been a very good debate on this blog. yea! some people threw some dirt. but thats what tide is for! its better than throwing bombs!

Maybe we can add a little bleach too? Or is that politically incorrect?…..

Color Safe bleach?….

>>when there Koran teaches the death of all infidels

McMinn,

The Koran teaches AGAINST murder, but just like Christianity, many ignore that teaching in favor of their own personal interpretation, hence snipers killing OBGyns and bombers taking out family planning clinics. If the Koran was in favor of killing infidels Marco Polo would never have made it to China. Non-Islamists are looked upon as infidels because they don’t believe in the Koran, much like Non-Christians are looked upon as infidels by believing Christians because they don’t believe in the Bible. And, just like Christianity, Muslems are broken into many sects. Some of those sects, much like Christians are more militant than other sects. I’m an athiest. You are much closer to the same belief as Muslems than you are to me. They are actually your brothers under the skin…didn’t all of you (Christian, Jew and Muslem) spring from the loins of Abraham?

Yeah rodney, I’ve been having fun, too.

Ben McMinn,
I’ve actually been cussed out several times for saying Jesus is a Jew. I was once forced into a fight because of it.
I’ve studied the Koran and the Hadith(though not in enough detail to consider myself an expert or a scholar) and read books about Islam and Mohammed(both pro and con) and have come to the conclusion that Mohammed was a liar, a pervert and a mass murderer and that Islam is the greatest evil mankind has ever faced.

>>I�€™ve studied the Koran and the Hadith(though not in enough detail to consider myself an expert or a scholar) and read books about Islam and Mohammed(both pro and con) and have come to the conclusion that Mohammed was a liar, a pervert and a mass murderer and that Islam is the greatest evil mankind has ever faced.

Posted by: steve at February 28, 2006 07:53 PM

steve,

I doubt you’ve even read the Bible let alone the others, but if you have you have every reason to hate Islamists. We all envy our brothers.

TAKEABREATH,sorry tide with new improved bleach!

Marysdude
Christianity does not refer to non-Christians as infidels. Some Christians may but Christianity as a group does not. You also will find out some day that there are no athiests. My Bible says “that every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that I am LORD”.

I�€™ve actually been cussed out several times for saying Jesus is a Jew.

Steve,

I was being sarcastic

Marysdude,

Verse 9:123 “Believers make war on the infidels who dwell around you.”

Verse 5:51 “Believers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another.”

Verse 5:17 “Unbelievers are those who declare: ‘God is the Messiah, the son of Mary.”

I am closer to Muslims, we are only brothers under the skin. Just as I am a brother to you because we came from the same ape. but we are miles apart in our faith.
You claim that because Steve made his comment earlier that he hates muslims. I doubt he does. You hate Christians because anyone who belives in God is ignorant. Just because I spread a broad brush in my belief about Islam does not mean I hate them. I just like many others see the truth in their sciptures.

much like Non-Christians are looked upon as infidels by believing Christians because they don�€™t believe in the Bible.

Non Christians are not looked upon as infidels and we are not commanded to kill non believers.

Have a good night marysdude it’s lights out for me.

You also will find out some day that there are no athiests.

On the flip side we may find out some day that there are no Christians.

JayJay
After the rapture I won’t care!!!

>>You hate Christians because anyone who belives in God is ignorant. Just because I spread a broad brush in my belief about Islam does not mean I hate them. I just like many others see the truth in their sciptures.

McMinn,

I don’t hate Christians, I just think that if they use the words, “I am a Christian”, they speak with forked tongue. I’ve rarely met a Christian, hence I lack respect for the term Christian, or the people who say they speak from scripture. Scripture can be construde to mean whatever the ‘Christian’ wants. And, generally speaking, that’s the way scripture is used (by hateful people, so that they can spout vitriol, using the bible as their authority).

Marysdude,
I’ve read the Bible, cover to cover, twice. The first time was the King James version, the second time was the New Living Translation.
I don’t hate Islamists, I pity them for being deceived, just as I pity atheists.
You say you’ve never met a Christian. Is that because you expect Christians to be perfect? There has only ever been one man on earth who was perfect.
Generally speaking, most people use scripture to guide them in their attempt to live as God wants us to.

Ben McMinn,
I know.

Marysdude, et al,

I understand what you are saying about people who are self-professed “Christians.�€ The reason that you think you have never met a Christian is because most true Christians do not go around Bible thumping. In no way shape or form should a true Christian use the words of God to turn someone away from God. That is exactly what the holier-than-thou crowd does. When you try to foist your religion onto others that is the effect you have.

The absolute worst kind of “Christian” is the one who uses scripture to justify their hate. Case in point, homosexuality. They claim love the sinner but hate the sin. The problem is that many gays struggle with that conflict, contrary to what some straight self-professed homosexual “psuedo experts” have to say, homosexuality is inborn and unchangeable. How many homosexuals have been drawn closer to God because of Bible scriptures that are taken out of context and used as tools of hate? How many have been driven away from god? My guess is that much more have been driven away than have been drawn closer. I cannot think of a greater sin than driving someone away from his or her relationship with God. Christ NEVER taught intolerance.

Marysdude,

Along with JayJay, although I am a Christian, I rarely bring it up unless the conversation lends itself to it. My opinion, a true Christian will live their belief rather than talk about it. In fact, whether someone is of a spiritual belief or not is not as important to me as their behavior and how they treat me and others. I have met Athiests that treat people with respect and dignity and I have met Christians that do nothing in a Christian fashion other than carry a Bible.

That said, actions tell me more about a person than their self professed beliefs. That is why I have a lot of difficulty believing many politicians on both side of the political spectrum. I have more respect for someone who may not share my beliefs, but is true to their own than one who’s beliefs change with the latest public opinion poll……..

I owe Marysdude an apology. He said he’d rarely met a Christian, not never met a Christian. I apologize, Marysdude.

steve,

Nothin’ to it…I’ve done worse…ask Jack.

Marysdude,
You said this:“Christianiy CAN be moral, but most Christians are NOT, while many non-Christians ARE. I say, PROVE IT. MOST means more than half, so PROVE that more than half of all Christians are immoral, and while you are at it, supply the proof that MOST non-Christians are moral. I eagerly await the proof.

If you don’t have that proof, perhaps you should refrain from making such idiotic and unprovable statements based on your own personal bias.

marysdude calling marysdude qrt and standing by can you qso..

JACK,thanks for your site, you do a fabulous job.and you have incredible knowledge. also on the other side stephen d intelligences is in the cosmos.

>>You said this:�€œChristianiy CAN be moral, but most Christians are NOT, while many non-Christians ARE. I say, PROVE IT. MOST means more than half, so PROVE that more than half of all Christians are immoral, and while you are at it, supply the proof that MOST non-Christians are moral. I eagerly await the proof.

>>Christianiy CAN be moral, but most Christians are NOT, while many non-Christians ARE.

I posted what you said I said…below it is what I actually said.

If you want to challenge what I say, at least get it right.

Is that because you expect Christians to be perfect? There has only ever been one man on earth who was perfect.

It just shows the faliblity of man. I practice Christianity. I also fail daily in my walk. I do have a source to go to to ask forgiveness for my errors. That gives me the peace I need to continue. I also don�€™t do guilt trips. I just strive towards perfection knowing that on this earth I will never be perfect.

So, guys, you claim that you are not perfect, but isn’t that what you expect from those you call sinners? Aren’t you holding them to a higher standard?

Isn�€™t Everybody Sick & Tired of the 911 Conspiracy Freaks?

Is it me? Or are these 911 Conspiracy Freaks becoming intolerable and, might I say, quite dangerous? Somebody please put an end to their wild conspiracy theory. It�€™s been nearly five years since the deaths of thousands of innocent citizens; hard working citizens with families and friends who�€™ve had their hearts torn apart by the events of 911. Out of respect for the victims and for the safety of our nation�€™s future, I urge all of us to move forward from the rants of the tin-foil hat brigade. It�€™s a tough challenge. They are a unified group sticking to their insane and impossible story like the glue under their nose which they�€™re probably sniffing. Okay, I understand what a conspiracy is, two or more people planning a subversive act; and we have conspiracy laws on the books because they actually do happen all the time. Yeah, but these 911 freaks want all of us to choose their conspiracy theory over another one.

Here are the two top conspiracy theories; I�€™ll leave it up to all of you rational minded individuals to make a decision. Either you join the ranks of the freaks or you join the normal world of intelligence.

Conspiracy Theory #1 �€“ On 911, nineteen disgruntled goat herders from the other side of the world hidden in a dark cave plan and then orchestrates the most devastating attack upon the most highly budgeted and dominating, impenetrable defense system the world has ever known, and succeeds with hardly any money and armed only with razor blades; thus forcing that nation to alter its way of life more so than from its previous World Wars and major military conflicts. In effect, goat herders with razor blades were mightier than all enemies combined from WWI; WWII; Korean War; Vietnam War; etc�€�

OR

Conspiracy Theory #2 �€“ Some of the world�€™s richest and most powerful individuals with vast resources, top notch organizational abilities, direct access to US military apparatus and the most experienced and notorious clandestine operation units on the planet decide to implement the 911 attack to stir up necessary support from the American people in order to invade Middle Eastern countries and move closer to their goal of absolute control of oil markets, creating record shattering profits, establishing a long standing intimidation stance in the region (permanent US military bases in the region) and protection of oil resources and long term profits. Corporate hegemony or better known as Benito Mussolini put it, fascism.

The 911 Truth Movement is alive and growing fast. For those not in the know yet, come back to reality and join the hundreds of thousands of concerned citizens who desire justice and a safer future for our children. Get informed with the facts. Freedomtown is a great place to start. Check it out, and then ask yourself, in light of all the information, what really happened on 911? Are you interested in finding out more? The most accessible and rational voice in the 911 Truth Movement is David Ray Griffin. His books are highly recommended; The New Pearl Harbor; and The 911 Commission Report, Omissions and Distortions.

(By no means am I insinuating that goat herders as a whole are an evil bunch.)

JayJay
Where do you get the interpretation of holding sinners up to a higher standard? I hold myself up to a higher standard. Not as an elitist nor of a perfectionist but of one who has made it part of my character to be more Christ-like. It is a personal choice and I do not preach or teach that anybody use it. There are many who choose to use a higher standard. Those that choose to do so within there own weaknesses and strengths.

Greenback,

how about this conspiracy theory:

Conspiracy Theory #3 on 911, a well trained and funded organization that used to have US backing during the cold war and now gets most funding and support from enemies of the US (as well as being pissed for being backstabbed by the US) executes an attack on US soil that took years of carefull planning to execute. Politicians in power saw it as a perfect time to get anything they wanted passed (Patriot Act), so long as it could be tied to national security, and took advantage of it. Then Bush used sketchy intelligence to support his own preconceived notions to attack Iraq.

I don’t believe Bush had anything to do with the attack, I do believe he used the aftermath to do whatever he could.

Marydude,
Hide behind the posting snafu that eliminated a “C” and don’t answer the question. What else should I expect?

Thirteen separate colonies founded this country, not the other way round. Some colonies had very oppressive religious laws. The speech you cite is one of many good arguments for the establishment clause.

Steve,

Exactly, and those thirteen colonies formed a secular nation.

Dear �€�
Here I want to introduce myself and make you familiar with my work.So I think that,s better to begin with my degree.
I have M.A. degree in Political Science and through my studies about Political thoughts in ancient East.I got interested in Akkadian and Aramaic languages.Therefore I started to study those languages.
Firstable I started to study Aramaic with Assistant of blessed Mar Johannan Isaee(Athor Bejan)and continue my studies in Akkadian language with Dr.Arfaee.And about my works in this field:
A.My first trilogy based on Aramaic language:
I.Translation of Aramaic Grammar by Thomas Arayathinal.
II.Translation of the Comparative Grammar of the Semetic languages by Sabatino Moscati,which has some compliment articles published in recent years.
III.Translation of the Akkadian influences on Aramaic by Stephen A.Kaufman,which has some compliment articles published in recent years(I am working on it).
B.My second trilogy based on ancient languages(Aramaic and Akkadian languages):
I.Din in Qoran.
II.Islam in Qoran.
III.Kophre(irreligion)in Qoran.
Now I decided to study Aramaic professional.I want you guide me how I can study Aramaic?
Thanks for your help.
Saied hayati