Goodbye West Wing

One of my favorite shows ends this season. I have been watching the The West Wing almost since the beginning and even used it to help teach my children about U.S. government, although often as not to tell them that is not how it really works.

I didn't mind that the West Wing was a liberal PR vehicle. Good television drama is rare and must be cherished. I watched and just adjusted everything to the right. Besides, the producers tried to be realistic, using both Republican and Democratic consultants. President Jed Bartlet (Martin Sheen) was Bill Clinton with better judgment and a stronger character. His staff was also suitably upgraded, more attractive and smarter. There was no equivalent of un-photogenic James Carville.

The West Wing team features a wise king and his court. President Bartlet is involved in decision making when he needs be. Otherwise, he lets his competent staff work things out. They handle every sort of crisis. No problem is too big or too small. They know all the nuances of domestic politics and can find out about every foreign country. Toby and Josh get together to iron out the problems the world economy. On a tough day it might take them several hours to sort out the trade deficit. When they don’t know a subject or need language support, they just summon an expert. You rarely see anybody from State, Commerce or Defense in anything but support roles. State and local officials are subordinate not only to the president, but also to his brainy staff, but they are treated with resepect. CJ Clegg, the press spokesman and later chief of staff, would think nothing of calling the Mayor of Milwaukee to demand details of some local matter. Not one sparrow falls without the President being aware or giving permission.

In short, the West Wing gives entirely the wrong idea of how the Presidency should work. We don't want a wise king who makes decisions and we don't want members of his court sticking their noses in our business. We don't expect our president to be omniscient and we won't let him be omnipotent.

Americans know that when someone else does too much for us our ability to do for ourselves atrophies. And those who do too many things for others sow resentment and create a comfortable but poisonous dependency.

The key to American greatness has been self reliance. As Alexis de Tocqueville noted and Emerson encouraged, individual Americans do for themselves what governments do for people in most other places. In America, local governments manage projects and make laws that would be the responsibility of the national government in most other countries. We not only tolerate, but celebrate that people in different places and different circumstances will make different choices and have different outcomes. When we have setbacks, we understand that is our problem and we work to solve it, maybe move across the country to try something new.

At least that is how we used to think. Maybe now we want someone like Jed Bartlet to help us order our lives and create security for us. Maybe too many of the viewers thought that was how the presidency should be. It sure seems that way from the demands we make on our government. Serfdom can create a feeling of security and it is comfortable to think a good king has the answers. But the West Wing is fiction, thank God.

Posted by Jack at February 19, 2006 12:09 AM
Comments
Comment #127264

You’re certainly right, I mean look at how King George ignored New Orleans to teach them self reliance. How he doesn’t send proper equipment to Iraq so our soldiers learn independance. How he ignores Osama Bin Laden so that we can all learn to defend ourselves.

Posted by: Grant at February 19, 2006 12:58 AM
Comment #127265

>>In short, the West Wing gives entirely the wrong idea of how the Presidency should work. We don’t want a wise king who makes decisions and we don’t want members of his court sticking their noses in our business.

Jack,

You’re not talking about Gheney/Bush and the NSA are you?

Posted by: Marysdude at February 19, 2006 1:06 AM
Comment #127266

The West Wing ( or as many called it…The Left
Wing ) WAS a PR vehicle for the Democrat Party
and the liberal entertainment media, which was
why I never watched it. The newer PR vehicle…
“Commander In Chief” is no doubt the lefts way
of paving the way for Hillary, which is why I
don’t watch it either. Despite it’s initial
success, I’ve heard that it’s been cancelled. Too
bad. I actually really like Genna Davis.

Maybe the viewing public in general is wiseing up and getting tired of the propaganda and spin of
Hollywoods elitist lefties. Now if we can just
get Dick Wolf ( of Law & Order fame ) to write a
show that doesn’t have ALL the evil, murdering, child molesting villians as ALL being right-wing, G.O.P., Christian fundamentalists. But that would be…un-realistic.

Posted by: Dale G. at February 19, 2006 1:08 AM
Comment #127268

>> Now if we can just get Dick Wolf ( of Law & Order fame ) to write a show that doesn’t have ALL the evil, murdering, child molesting villians as ALL being right-wing, G.O.P., Christian fundamentalists. But that would be…un-realistic.


That would be pretty un-realistic, wouldn’t it.

Posted by: Grant at February 19, 2006 1:23 AM
Comment #127328

You know it is a sad day in America when TV has to teach Our Children what it means to be American. Granted I never got into the Series, but it sounds wierd to hear an Americam want to blame Hollywood for educating the American Citizen to what their Heritage & Rights are.

Posted by: Henry Schlatman at February 19, 2006 6:19 AM
Comment #127370

Henry

That is not my point. I am mostly just talking about the end of a popular series. The second point is not that this show is teaching about the presidency, but rather that it reflects what many people think the presidency should be.

Posted by: Jack at February 19, 2006 9:49 AM
Comment #127372

When some one uses TV to educate their children it means that they are lazy in helping teach their children or the school their children go to should be closed down and the kids should go somewhere else. I do not let my daughter watch much of any TV. Opps I a lib and do not watch TV, what is wrong with me?

Posted by: Roger at February 19, 2006 9:50 AM
Comment #127378

I never watched THE WEST WING because I knew how it would be with that liberal Martin Sheen as the main actor. Commander In Chief with Geena Davis was better but still something was lacking. I only watched it one time. I am not interested in teaching anyone about anything negative. We need to teach in a positive vein. Good riddance! My wife and I are watching “24” I can find some fault with it but for the most part very exciting. I just wish that it hadn’t tied up our Monday evenings.

Posted by: Rodger Fetters at February 19, 2006 10:14 AM
Comment #127405

As Jay Leno said….”You know things aren’t going well for the Democrats when they can’t even get elected on a TV show”…..

Posted by: Firstteam at February 19, 2006 11:45 AM
Comment #127421

Jack - I feel exactly the same as you. Great show, pretend they’re the good guys (conservatives). My wife and I will miss it. Martin Sheen, on the other hand much like the Grant poster here, is just a little misguided.

On the other hand, I sincerely hope they both continue to spew their vitriol through the next 2 elections!

Thanks Grant! Be all that you can be!!

Posted by: Scott Wilson at February 19, 2006 12:46 PM
Comment #127456

My wife and I have never seen “West Wing” and “Commander-in-Chief”, except for the trailers. I sincerely believe that no matter what show comes on the tube that focuses on Liberal- Democrat politics, it’s always going to get cancelled. The reason for this is simple; when you analyze Liberal-Democrat positions against the works of Karl Marx,(Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital), you will see that there is no distinction as to core beliefs. These shows were nothing more than wishful thinking and subtle indoctrination for a political system,i.e Communism, that as been proven in recent history to have miserably failed and murdered millions upon millions of people. BE,THINK,LIVE AMERICAN.

Posted by: Patrick at February 19, 2006 2:36 PM
Comment #127461

>>no matter what show comes on the tube that focuses on Liberal- Democrat politics, it’s always going to get cancelled.

Patrick,

How many seasons was West Wing on? You call that a failure?

The reason it was cancelled was because after Sorkin left, the writing sagged, and even with poor writing it remained for a while. It did not lose favor because it leaned left. If it had leanded right it wouldn’t have lasted half as long. It would have bored us to death.

Posted by: Marysdude at February 19, 2006 2:58 PM
Comment #127464

Even though I’m just about as anti-Dem as one can get, I really liked both West Wing and Commander In Chief. I respect all of your comments-I just have one to add: There is NO comparison between Gina and Hillary (or Billary, actually). If I thought for a second that Hillary Clinton could run this country half as smoothly as Gina or Martin, I wouldn’t be quite as fearful. For those of you from this great state of Michigan, I’m sure you can attest to what it’s like to have an ignorant leader as Wartface Granholm has proven to be. We certainly don’t need to repeat the same mistake in the White House. If Hillary wins in 2008, I think I’m going to take up stake in Ontario LOL.

Thank you for the post Jack-you have exemplary writing skills! =)

Posted by: Tanya at February 19, 2006 3:02 PM
Comment #127468

Grant- You commented “King George ignored New Orleans”.

I beg to differ with that statement-the only ones that did any “ignoring” were the ones that stayed knowing what was coming. What was George supposed to do, drop an atomic bomb into the eye of the storm to dissipate it? I mean come on, we just had a major winter storm that we knew about for nearly a week. How many people chose to ignore that by not preparing? Is that the fault of the Pres? If you live in an area that is known for such inclement weather, then you have to accept that as a way of life. How can you justify not having $30 to get you far enough away to ensure the safety of yourself and your loved ones, but you can afford Southern Comfort and Marlboro’s? I’m about as low income as it gets thanks to major health issues (to enlighten you, I made $349 in 2005) but I’m smart enough to know better than to sit here and watch a tornado come straight at my home and then beg for pity because I didn’t get out of the way…
I commend George for everything he’s done, at least he didn’t hide under his desk with an intern and hope it would all just go away…

Posted by: Tanya at February 19, 2006 3:10 PM
Comment #127470

I thought the episode that had an Hispanic Supreme Court nominee being pulled over and jailed for his refusal to submit to a breathalizer was quite a twist. It was resolved by the administration threatening the local official and the justice walking out, in the dead of night without a public sound being made.
RHIP. Good thing it’s only tv.

Posted by: Weary Willie at February 19, 2006 3:19 PM
Comment #127474

Jack,

I never once considered that this show might reflect reality. I watched it because as entertainment it was top notch.
No sex, no drugs, no violence, witty banter, excelent writing.
Why someone would consider this as reality is beyond my comprehension.
Yes the show sagged a bit in it’s last year, but what show doesn’t.

Posted by: Rocky at February 19, 2006 3:23 PM
Comment #127477

I commend George for everything he’s done, at least he didn’t hide under his desk with an intern and hope it would all just go away

No, he didn’t. He sat on a porch strumming a guitar not caring if it would go away or not. Just like he sat reading kindergarten books while we were being attacked on 9/11.

Posted by: Grant at February 19, 2006 3:28 PM
Comment #127487

>>I commend George for everything heⳠdone, at least he didnⴠhide under his desk with an intern and hope it would all just go away

Grant,

You left out part of it…didn’t he ‘hide’ in Air Force One for several hours while Rudy J prepared the groundwork for him?

Posted by: Marysdude at February 19, 2006 3:44 PM
Comment #127494

>> You left out part of it…didn’t he ‘hide’ in Air Force One for several hours while Rudy J prepared the groundwork for him?

Marysdude,

Forgot about that one. You know, the unprecedented scope of incompetence on a daily basis, it’s impossible to keep track of it all.

>> I never once considered that this show might reflect reality. I watched it because as entertainment it was top notch.

As for The West Wing, is it really surprising that the right can’t separate reality from fiction?

Posted by: Grant at February 19, 2006 4:05 PM
Comment #127511

Posted by: Marysdude at February 19, 2006 03:44 PM

Why doesn’t your link work? http://sbcglobal.net
I can’t get to it.

Posted by: Weary Willie at February 19, 2006 5:21 PM
Comment #127516

I also had to imagine the staff and president as conservative when I watched West Wing. Sometimes that was not easy. The show had very good writing and was very well paced. They did tend to depict conservatives as fire breathing dragons. But they did express some Conservative opinions on occasion. As far as the comments about GW staying for a time with the children after he was told about the attack on the towers. What should he have done? Cut his visit short and ubruptly leave and cause alarm? And as far as him being on air force 1 in flight. He was not hiding or waiting for Rudy to lay ground work. Being in flight was a CIA security directive. It was the safest place for the president when we were under attack. It must be so easy to be a liberal. No requirement to think!

Posted by: DW at February 19, 2006 5:35 PM
Comment #127518

It was the press who first started the “doesn’t want the president to look like he’s running away” when he was in flight on 9/11.

Posted by: Weary Willie at February 19, 2006 5:46 PM
Comment #127522

They first reported it when he was heading for a landing. I shouldn’t say they started it because obviously they didn’t.
But, AF1 was heading for a landing and some questioned the timing and it was said that someone didn’t want the president to look like he was hiding.

Posted by: Weary Willie at February 19, 2006 6:02 PM
Comment #127525

Anyway, that is my recallection of this particular issue on 9/11. I was watching Peter Jennings live.

Posted by: Weary Willie at February 19, 2006 6:05 PM
Comment #127527

DW wrote: As far as the comments about GW staying for a time with the children after he was told about the attack on the towers. What should he have done? Cut his visit short and ubruptly leave and cause alarm?

Exactly! Just like he should have been on the rooftops in New Orleans holding up a sign that read “Please go away Katrina, we’re sorry!”

Posted by: Tanya at February 19, 2006 6:12 PM
Comment #127593

>>Why doesn’t your link work? http://sbcglobal.net
I can’t get to it.


Posted by: Weary Willie at February 19, 2006 05:21 PM

Weary,

I don’t know…but, can I help you in some way?

Posted by: Marysdude at February 19, 2006 10:56 PM
Comment #127598

>>Exactly! Just like he should have been on the rooftops in New Orleans holding up a sign that read “Please go away Katrina, we’re sorry!”

Posted by: Tanya at February 19, 2006 06:12 PM

Tanya,

>>DW wrote: As far as the comments about GW staying for a time with the children after he was told about the attack on the towers. What should he have done? Cut his visit short and ubruptly leave and cause alarm?

Actually, the answer is yes. He had just heard that the United States was under attack. His first mission as Commander in Chief is to analize the situation and react with authority to Protect and Defend. The little panic he might have stirred up by leaving those children was small potatoes compared to the national harm if there had actually been an attack. I’m afraid that his baby-sitting should have taken a back seat to his real responsibilities.


Posted by: Marysdude at February 19, 2006 11:04 PM
Comment #127621

Grant,

Please keep pressing your version of the democratic party. If you’re successful to any degree, it should mean another outstanding 2006 and 2008 election cycle for this country.

And I keep forgetting to see a solution to anything on a dem’s post … I’m sure I just missed it, I’ll keep looking!

Posted by: Ken Cooper at February 20, 2006 12:00 AM
Comment #127697

Marysdude wrote: “Actually, the answer is yes. He had just heard that the United States was under attack. His first mission as Commander in Chief is to analize the situation and react with authority to Protect and Defend. The little panic he might have stirred up by leaving those children was small potatoes compared to the national harm if there had actually been an attack. I’m afraid that his baby-sitting should have taken a back seat to his real responsibilities.”

The first responsibility of the President is to ensure HIS safety because if he walks directly into the line of fire, so to speak, then we lose our Commander In Chief. Secondly, he was reading a book to elementary children, not attending a week long seminar. I’m sure those few minutes he took finishing that book made a huge difference in the security of our nation! And if you recall, at the time, they weren’t certain that this WAS an act of terrorism when he was notified of the incident at the WTC. By the time the 2nd plane hit, he had finished the book. By that time, the entire nation was in a frenzy anyway, and would have been regardless of whether he was in the Oval Office or the classroom. Could his abrupt ending and departure of that school prevented the next move of the terrorists that day?

Look, I’m not saying that GWB is perfect. Sure he’s made mistakes, haven’t all of the other leaders in this country done that on an occasion or two? All I’m saying is that I fail to see how he did anything wrong by his actions immediately following hearing the news of what was going on at the time. What else should he have done? Flown straight to the White House, which was next on the list as a target? Would that have been a better plan for him to protect and defend us that day? I’m sorry, but I don’t think so…

Posted by: Tanya at February 20, 2006 5:17 AM
Comment #127701

>> What should he have done? Cut his visit short and ubruptly leave and cause alarm?

>> Would that have been a better plan for him to protect and defend us that day?

I just love this argument that there is no reason for the president of the united states to go out of his way during times of a national emergency. I mean, ‘I’ know how worthless bush is, but to hear conservatives make the argument that he has nothing of value to contribute during a crisis surprises me.

God, can you imagine if we were facing a potential nuclear attack, (oops, we are, from everyone EXCEPT IRAQ), or foreign troops crossing our boarders? I guess it would be time for another vacation.

I guess that’s what I like about The West Wing, it demonstrates what a president with half a brain and a full grasp on reality could do in a similar situation.

Posted by: Grant at February 20, 2006 5:54 AM
Comment #127704

In response to: “Maybe the viewing public in general is wiseing up and getting tired of the propaganda and spin of Hollywoods elitist lefties. Now if we can just get Dick Wolf ( of Law & Order fame ) to write a show that doesn’t have ALL the evil, murdering, child molesting villians as ALL being right-wing, G.O.P., Christian fundamentalists. But that would be…un-realistic.”

I would like to interject this thought…I think that one of the reasons that so many in the entertainment industry are lefty’s is because there is not a song, movie or tv show ever going to get done without many union people being necessary to produce it. Therefore, everyone involved has to collectively kiss their asses or they will never be heard from again so all of the Left Wing shows are lauded as wonderful- Michael Moore, Barbara Striesand, Whoopie Goldberg, Rosie O’Donnell and the rest of them get a free rein and nobody dares to stand up to them and it is publicity forever for them. It also doesn’t help when ridiculous Conservatives such as Pat Roberson and others say things that make us righty’s want to run and hide somewhere. Anyway, I am really going to miss West Wing (although it was getting a bit tired and had about run its course) and I will REALLY miss Commander and Chief and simply can’t understand how it could have so few viewers so as to pull the plug on it. Oh well, it just gives me more time to watch Fox News Channel I guess. *grins*

Posted by: Tanya at February 20, 2006 5:59 AM
Comment #127706

Go out of his way? He was reading a children’s book for pete’s sake, not War in Peace! As I said, I’m sure those extra 10-15 minutes really made a world of difference! I don’t see how he could have done anything “of value” in that timeframe that couldn’t have waited, like I said, 10-15 minutes. Furthermore, I would rather have a Pres. with “half a brain” as you say, and a huge set of testicles running our country than one with no brain that resembeled the scarecrow on the Wizard of Oz! And I certainly hope you aren’t referring to ME when you use the term “conservatives” *wink* =)

Posted by: Tanya at February 20, 2006 6:13 AM
Comment #127711
We don’t expect our president to be omniscient and we won’t let him be omnipotent.

But we do expect competence. There’s no way Bush Sr. and Clinton are going to let GW into their Ex-President’s Club. Those guys worked their asses off for this country.

Increasingly, it’s becoming clear that President Bush’s term will be synonymous with “failure of leadership”, which is how both the Iraq and the Hurricane Katrina disasters are being summed up. GW’s “hands-off” style of leadership looks a lot like dilettante-ism ((c) 2006, American Pundit).

Joining the club takes more than just sitting around in the Oval Office — when you even bother to show up in DC.

Posted by: American Pundit at February 20, 2006 6:49 AM
Comment #127718

>>I’m sure those few minutes he took finishing that book made a huge difference in the security of our nation! And if you recall, at the time, they weren’t certain that this WAS an act of terrorism when he was notified of the incident at the WTC. By the time the 2nd plane hit, he had finished the book.

Tanya,

The words were, as close as I can ascertain, ‘Mr. President, the country is under attack’, or words to that effect. Unless the Commander in Chief is in motion, getting things in gear, and finding out particulars, how can he make responsible choices?

His first act is to protect himself? How did he do that? By sitting around talking to a bunch of kids.

He had no idea if it was a nuke attack, a terrorist attack or a mistake all together, but he froze.

The same thing happened during Katrina. So much for your ‘in touch’, ‘macho’, ‘cowboy’, President.

Posted by: Marysdude at February 20, 2006 7:37 AM
Comment #127741

Sad. It has come to the point, bush hate now seeps into any and every discussion on the web. Even if one tries to avoid it, it even seeps into IT, software etc. discussion. Who will they blame after he leaves office? Why, GWB of course. He gets blamed for everything and anything the left can think of.

Posted by: pige at February 20, 2006 10:16 AM
Comment #127748

>>Who will they blame after he leaves office? Why, GWB of course. He gets blamed for everything and anything the left can think of.

Posted by: pige at February 20, 2006 10:16 AM

pige,

Early on the Repubs on these blogs were citing Clinton as the cause of the world’s ills. Now they are defending Cheney/Bush with all that is in them. Changes occur because more and more evidence comes out that we Dems were right about more than we were wrong about. We have pretty much put the ‘blame Clinton’ crowd out of it.

To stop the Cheney/Bush hemorage, all you have to do is stop the flow of evidence…

Posted by: Marysdude at February 20, 2006 10:33 AM
Comment #127796

It is amazing how Pres Bush is blamed for everything that goes bad all over the world. I gues he could have saved people in New Orleans as he saved the ones in the recent winter storms. I have lived in LA all of my life. You are a fool if you wait until some politician to tell you to evacuate. No one will make everyone leave even when it is a cat 5 storm. So don’t blame our Rep President, our Dem govenor, or the Mayor of the city of NO. There were people that decided to ride out the storm all up and down the gulf. NO would have made out just fine if it had not been for the levee problem.

Yes, I enjoyed the West Wing. There were times when you could just enjoy the show w/o being concerned about left or right. But that’s TV. In the real world there are jerks on both sides of the aisle. Some a little more so than others. Kerry, Kennedy and Gore, are examples of that. Hillary is trying to prepare for election so she is trying to move more in the middle….
With everything going on in the world, maybe we should try to get together more and not try to wedge politics into everything we do. Look at the uproar about that stupid cartoon. Do you think that there has never been something done that attacked Christianity, but Christians did not incite violence as those radical religious groups. Maybe we should stick together—-United we stand,,,,divided we fall….. Oh how true. Islamist do not have to do anything to destroy us, we will do that ourselves.. Let’s stand proud to be Americans and put petty things aside….
Let’s make Bartlett proud!!!

Posted by: S Ellis at February 20, 2006 12:46 PM
Comment #127833

Ok first of all I’m 18 and still in high school.
In my opinion our president has done a fantastic job, yeah he stayed in the classroom on 9/11, but what good would it have done to just get up and rush out? it would have worried the children, and just about everyone else, so he wasn’t thinking about himself, he didn’t freeze, his mind (while he was finishing the book) was probly working through a ton of different senarios, if he would have rushed out, lots of people would most likely be critisizeing him for that. And with Katrina, the government asked if they could be of any assistance and the answer was no, so they can’t just go in and take over, it has to be a choice of the Mayor, (I believe it is) so when New Orleans did ask for help, the help was given (and it normaly takes about two to three days for the help to come in) yeah it wasn’t as fast as some people wanted it to be, but that was also the fault of the people who said no to the help in the first place. you know one of my favorite lines from the West Wing is: “I serve at the pleasure of the president” I’m not in office, but I am an American, and so I do serve under the president no matter what I do for a living.
yeah our president isn’t perfect (but what president was?) but I am proud of GWB, and I am proud of the work he’s doing, and all I have to say now is “may God Bless him”

Posted by: Krysten at February 20, 2006 2:02 PM
Comment #127840

Thank you Krysten, for your (brave) contribution to this discussion: “yeah our president isn’t perfect (but what president was?) but I am proud of GWB, and I am proud of the work he’s doing, and all I have to say now is “may God Bless him”

I think that with all of these experts in this forum that seem to think they could run this country SOOO much better than Bush is we ought to see a heck of a lot of names on the primary ballots!

I am reminded of a quote here:

“Superior people talk about ideas;
Average people talk about things;
Little people talk about other people”

When comparing Reps and Dems, why is it that the Dems are always the “little people” while the Reps are the ones that actually get things done, whether or not it’s done the “right” way according to the many who are so quick to whine about it…..

At any rate, I think it’s nice to see that the younger generation is interested enough in our political system to join in a forum such as this. I also find it encouraging that the “leaders of tomorrow” such as your generation are willing to express your views. Kudos to you!! =)

Posted by: Tanya at February 20, 2006 2:21 PM
Comment #127850

>>I also find it encouraging that the “leaders of tomorrow” such as your generation are willing to express your views. Kudos to you!! =)

Posted by: Tanya at February 20, 2006 02:21 PM

Tanya,

Yeah! Kudos…unless she had posted something negative about your hero…then it’d been, ‘you young whippersnappers better mind your manners…

Posted by: Marysdude at February 20, 2006 2:43 PM
Comment #127860

Yeah! Kudos…unless she had posted something negative about your hero…then it’d been, ‘you young whippersnappers better mind your manners…


Posted by Marysdude at February 20, 2006 02:43 PM


I couldn’t care less if she’d posted these things about Clinton, it was the fact that she is interested/involved and the MANNER in which she posted that I commend!

Posted by: Tanya at February 20, 2006 3:01 PM
Comment #127936

Good gravy, I can’t believe anyone is still trying to use this tired “What SHOULD he have done… just walked out and scared all those kids?” baloney.

First: It presents a false choice - between startling 30 kids and getting quickly to work in a national crisis.
(God, I can’t believe I have to actually explain this all over again..)
He could have simply, and CALMLY Stood up, apologized to the class, reminded them that being president means sometimes you have interrupt your plans to take care of important things and walk out. 90 seconds TOPS.

A competent President could - No, WOULD have done just that. Bush was stunned into immobility or indecision and it showed. Now I don’t fault him for being stunned. I fault those that act like it was something noble, rather than a very normal human reaction.

Personally, If it was me, I may have fainted, or leapt into action, or peed myself - I don’t know… But I do know how a President should react. That wasn’t it.

In Case You’re Really Married To The Above Argument: Even if somehow this weak “din’t want to scare the kids” excuse was legitimate - and he really did HAVE to choose, THERE WERE NO OTHER WAY TO BEHAVE… then YES! You startle that classroom, and get your pampered frat boy butt to work. Let your staff take care of the confused children, the Press, and the irritated teacher. Your #1 job in that moment is Commander in Cheif.

I don’t blame Krysten for not fully understanding the issue. She has grown up in a culture that doesn’t seem to value critical thinking.

Krysten, trust me… the best thing you (or anyone) as a young adult can do is take an Introductory Logic course… even if your plans don’t include college - find a Community College and take it. Usually in with the Philosophy courses. It’s essential if you are serious in following an interest in political issues.
It develops critcal thinking skills that are needed for life and for forming well-reasoned opinions. Left Right, Center, Red, Blue, or Green. The best tool to really convince someone of something is Reason.


Posted by: John Klapak at February 20, 2006 6:21 PM
Comment #127947

It was Stalin who said, take away the history of a opeople and you can teach their children anything. History of America now taught is not wht I learned. Go into a class room and there is a map of another country, and it is not the United States. When we depend on Seculartv to teach, we get what we deserve. Whether it is West Wing, Commander in Chief or our infamous Network News….the secular, humanistic idealogies permeate our childrens thoughts and we sit back and ask: “Besides that Jackie, what’d you think of Dallas?”

Posted by: Gene at February 20, 2006 6:57 PM
Comment #127950

Here, here…Gene

Posted by: Eric at February 20, 2006 6:59 PM
Comment #127956

Wow! Gene/Eric, that’s all way too deep for me…why don’t you explain it a little more clearly. Tell me how Youth Fellowship, Catholic Schools and Moses can do a better job of teaching American History, etc., etc.

You say you’re not Catholic? How about Baptist Schools?

You say you are not Baptists? How about Pentacostal Schools?

You say you are not…???

Which kind of history would you want taught? Yours? Mine? Someone elses? Do we bring God in or leave God out? How much of American History is he/she part of?

Help me out here boys. I’m confused…

Posted by: Marysdude at February 20, 2006 7:14 PM
Comment #127957

Uh…one other thing…

Do we sell this on TV or do we do it in church or school or…???

Posted by: Marysdude at February 20, 2006 7:16 PM
Comment #127980

I can’t comment on the shows writer, producer, etc. All I’m saying is that the inherent political philosophy demonstrated on the show was not American Republicanism(representative governmant). Though it had the facade of being such. When the novelty wore off it bacame apparent to viewers what was amiss. Ergo the cancellation.

Posted by: Patrick at February 20, 2006 8:14 PM
Comment #127981

I can’t comment on the shows writer, producer, etc. All I’m saying is that the inherent political philosophy demonstrated on the show was not American Republicanism(representative government). Though it had the facade of being such. When the novelty wore off it became apparent to viewers what was amiss. Ergo the cancellation.

Posted by: Patrick at February 20, 2006 8:15 PM
Comment #127986

no offense to those who think that the young don’t fully understand the government, well I’m not like most, I’ve been brought up to understand more then most people think, yeah I can see how the President could have done a lot of things, but like I said before he’s not perfect, and if anyone thinks he or she can do a better job of it, go ahead and try. Let me tell you this, more and more of todays teens are getting into studying the government, I’ll be one to say this, we in the younger generation understand more then we let on.

Posted by: Krysten at February 20, 2006 8:25 PM
Comment #127988

I just love this recurring statement from the ‘right’ side of the blog that Bush isn’t perfect, but what president has been. Well, I’m not expecting perfection, nobody is, but I do expect a certain level of competence. Past presidents haven’t been perfect, but at least they haven’t walked around looking like a deer in the headlights.

What I’d love to know from the conservative/right side of things is just where has Bush succeeded? In anything? Sure, he’s blown off the liberal/left but that’s to be expected, but what has he done for the right? Conservatives are supposed to believe in fiscal discipline, where is that? The budget is completely out of control. Thousands of special projects, the government subsidizing that Alaskan bridge to nowhere. Sure, he’s made some token cuts to social programs, the VA and higher education assistance, but the deficits higher than it’s ever been.

Conservatives are supposed to believe in small government, yet the governments never been larger. Conservatives are supposed to detest the government ‘entitlement programs’, as you guys so eloquently label them, but I don’t see them going anywhere? What about morality? Where is the constitutional amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman? Where is the elimination of abortion?

You know, maybe taking action when we were attacked on 9/11 wouldn’t have done any good. I mean he certainly jumped through hoops, cutting his 8th or 9th vacation short, to save Terri Schiavo and he couldn’t even save her.

What about defending the nation, that’s a conservative ideal, are we safe? Are our borders secure? We’re handing over our port operations to Dubai for god sake and our southern border leaks like a sieve. Has he caught bin Laden? No, he outsourced that one. (b.t.w. for those of you who aren’t aware, bin laden is the guy who attacked us on 9/11) and while we’ve been trapped in the middle of a civil war in Iraq, Iran and North Korea are arming themselves with nuclear weapons.

I guess one place he’s succeeded is on the Supreme Court. He would have failed, with the nomination of Harriet Meyers, but the right finally found the cojones to stand up to him and got her kicked before anyone could even hear what she had to say.

So let’s summarize, from a conservative perspective, he’s failed fiscally, he fails in regards to the size and scope of government, he’s failed to get rid of those detestable government handout entitlement programs, he’s failed to propose or pass Christian conservative laws and amendments, he fails to defend our borders, he’s failed to make those who ‘really’ attacked us pay. Of course he’s failed the left, but where exactly has this guy succeeded for the right?

A radio talk show host once said something that makes a lot of sense. He said that conservatives look at GWB through, and I’m not exactly quoting here, through the perspective of the war in Iraq. The right believes in the war in Iraq so much that it alters their perspective of GWB in his favor. The idea being that had it not been for 9/11 and Iraq, conservatives would likely be a lot more disappointed with him. Another thought I had along this line has to do with something the right keeps saying, that being that the left hates GWB so much that we’re going to find fault in anything he does. I think it’s a bit more appropriate to say that the right hates the left so much that it blinds them to the crap that GWB and his circus pulls.

So help me here. Give me one thing here that GWB has succeeded in as president.

Posted by: Grant at February 20, 2006 8:29 PM
Comment #127993

Yeah,
I totally agree with Krysten. I’m 14 and I’m just getting into the political side and I think president Bush is doing an AWESOME job!! Yeah I agree he isn’t perfect (but who is) And I also agree whith what Krysten said: We in the younger generation understand more then what we let on! Even when it comes to the Government, and if you don’t think that you can do a better job then quit criticizing those who choose to do the job. And being the president isn’t all what it cracks up to be it takes a lot of time and effort and hard work. God bless president Bush.

Posted by: Amanda at February 20, 2006 8:50 PM
Comment #128017

If the RIGHT can’t put up a reasonable argument they send their children after you. Let’s all go play on the Tilt-a-Wheel…

Posted by: Marysdude at February 20, 2006 10:19 PM
Comment #128018

Grant, that last one was an especially good post…

Posted by: Marysdude at February 20, 2006 10:21 PM
Comment #128026

Krysten or Tanya…with the way you are passionate and KNOW what you’re talking about instead of spewing verbal lava about things with they don’t understand whatsoever…you are wonderful women. Will you marry me? either one of you? lol.

As for Grant, Marysdude and whoever else…obviously you don’t watch tv much…or at least not Fox News. I watched O’Reilly interview two of your “golden children” Paul Begalla and James Carville. Just LOVED how they think they can gain back congress and the presidency by using the argument that “Bush had Bin Laden cornered in Tora Bora and let him go to go into Iraq.” Three things wrong there…first…it’s ancient history…get OVER IT, second…Iraq WAS a threat whether you like it or not—isn’t now b/c we took care of the problem (and as I said in another post I put WMD’s was NOT the main reason for the pre-emptive strike), and three…two-part, Bush wasn’t physically there, and we don’t know if OBL was physically there either (hell the only people who can find him are reporters for Al-Jazeera apparently). O’Reilly replied that it was weak and they have to come with something substantial….(back to our little blog here)….so YOU go back to his reaction on 9/11 and “competence” of his handling of things in Iraq, etc. If we’re gonna bring up old stuff…how about the “competence” of letting Bin Laden slip through our collective fingers when the Sudanese were going to HAND HIM OVER!! Or the competence of lobbing some missles at an ASPIRIN factory! Or the “competence” of lying to the American people on live, nationwide TV….OH…and that whole lying under oath thing!!!(by the way it was lying about the cover-up of the Monica thing…NOT about the oral “party favor” he received).

Grant…how about something that GWB has succeded at. Pulling us out of a certain long-lived recession (I KNOW you’ll comment about the deficit so bring it on I can handle you). How about successfully executing TWO wars at pretty much the same time. How about building TWO DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED governments in two extremely “hostile” countries to the thought of liberty. How about LIBERATING OVER 50 MILLION PEOPLE!!! Man, makes Willie’s accomplishment of getting a party favor in the oval office seem like…well..we won’t go on there.

Any response?…didn’t think so

Posted by: Robert at February 20, 2006 10:48 PM
Comment #128030

wow Marysdude…just b/c someone’s young they can’t have an opinion/ideas? Sounds like you could learn a little bit from the youth. and for your comment to Grant…you libs just like to tear people down and then pat each other on the back like you’re smarter than everyone in the room! You both get showed up by an 18 and 14 yr old…and you just can’t stand it.

Posted by: Robert at February 20, 2006 10:52 PM
Comment #128033

Thank you Robert standing with us in the mist of everyone else, I appreciate what you said and it encoureges me to keep on voicing my views thank you.

Posted by: Amanda at February 20, 2006 11:10 PM
Comment #128035

>>How about successfully executing TWO wars at pretty much the same time.

robert,

He handled the one in Afghanistan by NOT getting ben Ladin.

He needed the public’s vote to get him back into office so he sold us on Iraq.

Afghanistan may yet fall back into the hands of the Taliban and Iraq is in the midst of a civil war. Wow, I wish I had loyal folks like you to back me in MY nefarious schemes.

Posted by: Marysdude at February 20, 2006 11:16 PM
Comment #128040

I can also say that I enjoyed West Wing, and my father (despite being a true independent but with conservative view points) once said “if the President could be like that…I’d vote for a Deomcrat.” The point of the original thread being exactly that! The problem is that we must not allow the President to be in that “mold” because then there would not be a balance of power. I’m sure the NSA thing has gotten people in a ruccuss for a reason, but the thing is…where in the Constitution does it say that he DOESN’T have the power to do it? Yes there is a “law” (FISA) that states that he can’t do “this or that” without a court order, but the fact is Congress cannot usurp the power given to the President without a Constitutional Ammendment! The FISA law is unconstitutional and if it is brought before the Supreme Court it will go down 7-2 I predict (Ginsberg and Breyer will side with “civil liberties” of known terrorists inside our country over the protection of it’s citizens anytime—ah libs can’t send them with Cheney on his next hunting trip!).

I truly liked West Wing even though it was a PR spot for the Dems. I just could spot the places where they stretched the powers of the President and realized that on the Federal level some things can’t get done the way they did it no matter WHAT fictitious idea they came up with. Alan Alda joined the cast as a “Republican-olib” and I liked it(who actually believes that he would ever be a Rep—it’s like Richard Dreyfus being “Bob Rumson” in the movie The American President with Micheal Douglas et al in it—by the way Sheen was in that movie too). Ever notice that when they make a movie or tv show that the President is always a Dem? How about a little “Fair and Balanced” here?
Actually Alda did a FINE job of laying out a rather conservative veiw point in the “mock debate” they had. I thought that was GREAT television and wish debates were more like that format (no-holds barred, lay it all out there type). Of course then they had to have a nuke plant go haywire b/c he had said he was for it. Anyway, I agree with Jack…here’s to a show that was thought-provoking even if it was annoyingly frustrating to us “neo-cons”.

Posted by: Robert at February 20, 2006 11:25 PM
Comment #128042

Marysdude…you are such a pessimist. Yet you stated what you WANT to happen. Way to go. I like the idea….keep on that and conservatives will have 60 in the Senate (maybe more) and a 40 seat advantage in the House.

By the way, neither did Clinton get Bin Laden when he was offered on a SILVER PLATTER or “don’t you no read so good” up above (instead of being in a barren and treacherous landscape that has the lowest population density in the world due to the harsh conditions and terrain).

Posted by: Robert at February 20, 2006 11:30 PM
Comment #128053

Tanya,

thanks for taking the high road against Marysdud
or was that dude? Oh…sorry, I guess I took the
low road right along with Marysdude and that lame
“Tilt-a-Whirl” crack.

Marysdude,

What’s the matter Mary. Are you afraid that our youth is conservative or smarter than you thought? Or just smarter than you? Would you say the same demeaning things if Amanda or Krysten
were teen BOYS? Just a thought.

Posted by: Dale G. at February 21, 2006 12:14 AM
Comment #128057

>>What’s the matter Mary. Are you afraid that our youth is conservative or smarter than you thought? Or just smarter than you? Would you say the same demeaning things if Amanda or Krysten
were teen BOYS? Just a thought.

Dale,

Yep…I’d say the same about boys.

In a blog, it is not really possible to tell a poster’s age, but maturity can be fairly well guaged. I have no idea how old either of the two ladies are, or even if they are female or not, but I can pretty much affirm that they are not very mature. Please get back on that Tilt-a-Whirl.

I appreciate intelligence and sharing points of view, however the Rah! Rah! needs to stay in High School. This is the real world, with real problems to discuss.

Posted by: Marysdude at February 21, 2006 12:22 AM
Comment #128077

Marysdude,

I realize that in cyber-space one may not be who
he or she seems. They can fake age, gender, etc.
While their lack of age and life experience may
be limited, that doesn’t mean we should just
discount their opinions altogether. I don’t know
how old you are or if you have children. But if you do have kids, do you so easily dismiss their
opinions. Based on some of your posts I’ve seen all over WatchBlog, I’m not sure if you’re the one to be gauging other peoples maturity.

Posted by: Dale G. at February 21, 2006 1:42 AM
Comment #128078

“In a blog, it is not really possible to tell a poster’s age, but maturity can be fairly well guaged. I have no idea how old either of the two ladies are, or even if they are female or not, but I can pretty much affirm that they are not very mature. Please get back on that Tilt-a-Whirl.”

LOL, I honestly have to laugh at that, you are compleatly right marysdude you don’t know me, otherwise you would know that I know more about real problems then you might think, I’ve seen more suffering and pain then you think, I’m not going to get into it, and honestly I don’t know you either but it seems to me that the way you talk you honestly don’t know how to take the fact that teenagers (or at least some teenagers) might possibly be smarter then you thought.

And to Robert, like Amanda said thanks. LOL (and it would depend on how old you are, LOL in answer to your first question to Tanya or I)

“By the way, neither did Clinton get Bin Laden when he was offered on a SILVER PLATTER or “don’t you no read so good” up above (instead of being in a barren and treacherous landscape that has the lowest population density in the world due to the harsh conditions and terrain).”

all I have to say to that is I agree.

Posted by: Krysten at February 21, 2006 1:48 AM
Comment #128091

for Marydude’s information I am 14 years old, and I believe in standing up for what I beleive is right and you can criticize my belief’s and thoughts I don’t care! But when it comes to this country and Government I am mature for my age. I think that it’s great that the younger generation is getting involved with the Government they deserve to have a say for what they think and believe is right, and I encourege them to speak up I’m not saying this just because I’m apart of this generation I’m saying this because I want my opinion to count as a youth, and the youth is apart of the real world and teenager’s do have real problems sometimes they have more on their plates then what most adults do I should know I’m one of them! And I am in high school. And it’s good to know that other people are supporting and encoureging this generation take a stand for what they know is right!

Posted by: Amanda at February 21, 2006 2:38 AM
Comment #128155

>>And I am in high school. And it’s good to know that other people are supporting and encoureging this generation take a stand for what they know is right!

Posted by: Amanda at February 21, 2006 02:38 AM

Amanda,

Don’t you actually attend that high school? What in the world are you doing still up at 2:38 am?

I raised several children, but at fourteen they were in bed early on school nights. What are your parents THINKING?

Posted by: Marysdude at February 21, 2006 9:54 AM
Comment #128192

I don’t know about Amanda, but when it said 1:48am on my last post, it was refering to the EST because it was only around 10:30pm or so my time. But honestly whatever her parents are thinking, it’s none of your business, yeah if they let her stay up that late (if it really was that late on her side)she’d be tired for school the next morning, but that’s her parents choice, so I can’t say I know what her parents are thinking (I don’t even know her) but whatever they are thinking, that’s their problem, but you getting all high and mighty, saying “I raised several children, but at fourteen they were in bed early on school nights” That’s low, because your sounding all prideful, well that’s your opinion, but in fact you don’t know Amanda’s situation (heck neither do I) you don’t know how her praents raised her, so no offense but how can you ask such a question? (“what are her parents thinking?”)again that is none of your business…

Posted by: Krysten at February 21, 2006 11:38 AM
Comment #128197

Hilarious to see marysdude get SCHOOLED by school girls….

Posted by: nikkolai at February 21, 2006 11:51 AM
Comment #128201

First of all you don’t know what time zone I’m in, second, you don’t know my parents, so honestly what gives you the right to ask such a question? for your information my parents raised me to have very high morals and standards, and they raised me to be a responsible young adult, I don’t know you from Adam, but in my opinion you sound more imature then some adults I know, so maybe you should take lessons from those who speak and put them into actions, because it seems that their are more mature people in this room, but I don’t think your one of them…

Posted by: Amanda at February 21, 2006 12:07 PM
Comment #128208

Dear Marysdude, Gene and Eric have a good point. Maybe you do to, I do not know, nor do I care. What do you want, for everyone to believe the way you do? Political Correctness, Hyphenated Americans, Black History Month which takes away from Presidents day, and the removal of Christmas, what does everyone want? Lets let the liberals pay for those in prison for life so the conservatives can get on with their lives and work for a better United States! You have the right to your opinion, do not condemn those who do not agree with you, that is narrow minded, nay, closed minded.

Posted by: Jeff at February 21, 2006 12:39 PM
Comment #128218

>>You have the right to your opinion, do not condemn those who do not agree with you, that is narrow minded, nay, closed minded.

Posted by: Jeff at February 21, 2006 12:39 PM

Jeff,

Isn’t that just what you did to me?

Amanda,

Go to school…

nikkolai,

Go to school!

Krysten,

>>so no offense but how can you ask such a question?

You are being offensive. As a parent, my concern for one who claims to be 14 years old and who stays up extremely late on a school night and is still posting in the afternoon on a school day. Why aren’t YOU concerned? What are her parents THINKING?

Posted by: Marysdude at February 21, 2006 1:40 PM
Comment #128224

marysdude—I did. Graduated 1981 BBA Finance University of Texas

Posted by: nikkolai at February 21, 2006 2:02 PM
Comment #128231

“You are being offensive. As a parent, my concern for one who claims to be 14 years old and who stays up extremely late on a school night and is still posting in the afternoon on a school day. Why aren’t YOU concerned? What are her parents THINKING?”

Thank you for your comment, like I said before couldn’t Amanda’s time zone be different? this blog has the EST (do your math) that’s why I’m not too concerned, also if you were talking about me posting in the middle of the day, again EST so right now it’s still morning, also I’m in my political science class, so my teacher has us on the internet, anyway.

“You have the right to your opinion, do not condemn those who do not agree with you, that is narrow minded, nay, closed minded.”

You are so right Jeff, everyone has a right to their own opinion, don’t condemn them if they don’t happen to agree with yours, it’s not your place (it’s not mine either) I don’t agree with your opinion marysdude, but I do respect it, because this is a free country (is it not?) and everyone has a right to their own opinion, I’m not going to sit here and condemn your opinion, because that would be wrong of me, and then me condemning your opinion would then make me close-minded, there are a lot of things people don’t agree upon, but we need to respect others no matter if we agree or not, so I thank you for your opinion…

Posted by: Krysten at February 21, 2006 2:22 PM
Comment #128236

WoW!

Compromise from the right…will wonders never cease?

I’ll look forward to sparing on other blog sites, Krysten. This one seems to have worn out.

Posted by: Marysdude at February 21, 2006 2:31 PM
Comment #128237

To marysdude:

“It did not lose favor because it leaned left. If it had leanded right it wouldn’t have lasted half as long. It would have bored us to death.”

Sure, that’s why 24 is going strong, because it ‘leanded’ to the right. You speak like the true educated liberal socialist that so typifies the left.

Posted by: Beak at February 21, 2006 2:32 PM
Comment #128253

LOL, well it may have looked like a compromise on my part, but honestly it wasn’t, I was mearly stating that I will respect views even if I don’t agree. I do look farward to sparing in the future as well…

Posted by: Krysten at February 21, 2006 3:19 PM
Comment #128269

Dude:
“This is the real world, with real problems to discuss.” Posted by: Marysdude at February 21, 2006 12:22 AM

LOL. This for your information, is not the real world. It’s a blog and you can attend it in your pajamas. You cannot attend the real world in your pajamas. Furthermore, the issue under discussion is a television show which is also not real.

This has been your reality check. In the event that you encounter the real world, be sure that you have changed out of your pajamas.

Posted by: goodkingned at February 21, 2006 4:36 PM
Comment #128294

Yeah I agree with what Krysten said is this a free country is it not? And everyone has their right to their own opinion. And this generation know’s alot about the Government and I think more people like Marysdude should encourage the younger generation to voice their opinion and not discourage us. You know sometimes a teenager may have a better point of veiw then what an adult may have. And I am very mature for my age and its a freedom of speech and I think more teenagers should voice their opinion about the Government. You know us teenagers may not be able to vote but we should be able to voice our opinion about the Government, no matter what the adult’s say. If you really think about it adults could learn from us teens as well as teens learn from adults.

Posted by: Amanda at February 21, 2006 5:52 PM
Comment #128325

>>If you really think about it adults could learn from us teens as well as teens learn from adults.

Posted by: Amanda at February 21, 2006 05:52 PM

Krysten,

What time zone would Amanda live in to post at 3 am, noon and 6pm, get her homework done, stay alert in class and take care of her chores at home?

Amanda,

Okay, go ahead and express your view, you don;t have to wait for MY permission…

Posted by: Marysdude at February 21, 2006 7:28 PM
Comment #128420

“Krysten,

What time zone would Amanda live in to post at 3 am, noon and 6pm, get her homework done, stay alert in class and take care of her chores at home?”

Honestly how should I know Marysdude, but I do know that no matter where a person lives (what time zone) this blog shows the time being at EST so I don’t know (and I freely admit that) what time zone Amanda lives in.

And to Amanda: first of all LOL try to keep a cool head, if you do any kind of debating in school trust me it’ll do you well to keep a cool head on your shoulders, that’s what a lot of people don’t expect, so my advice to you, keep calm…LOL

Posted by: Krysten at February 22, 2006 1:38 AM
Comment #128500

Marysdude,
when it comes to my schooling I am very responsible, the same goes for my chores, my family and I work together as a team in order to get things done, and for your information I live in the PST, thank you…

Posted by: Amanda at February 22, 2006 11:38 AM
Comment #128833

You should have told me you were posting some of these things by cel-phone text messaging. At least for us old, slow witted, ignorant fogys that might have been believable…

Posted by: Marysdude at February 23, 2006 7:36 AM
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