God speaks to Ray Nagin. Is he the next prophet?

It appears that we have a new prophet. God seems to have chosen Mayor Ray Nagin to convey to the Americans that he is mad at US. God berated America for attacking Iraq under false pretenses. God is also not happy about the violence and political infighting in black communities. Apparently God did not mention the political infighting in Washington that has seemed to slow everything within the belt.

The AP story did not indicate how the communication took place, whether by a loud voice from the heavens, or a personal appearance by God or his Archangel Gabriel, who last brought the word of God to the final prophet Muhammad. Perhaps God had access to the mayor by e-mail. In any case, the communication was private, with no witnesses, as was the case with Muhammad. We are waiting to see if more revelations will follow. It is also interesting to note that Nagin also claims to have an imaginary conversation with Dr. King the same day. It was not clear why he did not intercede with God to have an actual conversation with the slain leader.

NEW ORLEANS(AP) - Mayor Ray Nagin suggested Monday that Hurricanes Katrina and Rita and other storms were a sign that "God is mad at America" and at black communities, too, for tearing themselves apart with violence and political infighting.

"Surely God is mad at America. He sent us hurricane after hurricane after hurricane, and it's destroyed and put stress on this country," Nagin, who is black, said as he and other city leaders marked Martin Luther King Day.

"Surely he doesn't approve of us being Iraq under false pretenses. But surely he is upset at black America also. We're not taking care of ourselves."

Nagin described an imaginary conversation with King, the late civil rights leader.

"I said, 'What is it going to take for us to move on and live your dream and make it a reality?' He said, 'I don't think that we need to pay attention any more as much about other folks and racists on the other side' He said, 'The thing we need to focus on as a community — black folks I'm talking about — is ourselves.'"

Nagin said he also asked: "Why is black-on-black crime such an issue? Why do our young men hate each other so much that they look their brother in the face and they will take a gun and kill him in cold blood?"

The reply, Nagin said, was: "We as a people need to fix ourselves first."
Nagin also said King would have been dismayed with black leaders who are "most of the time tearing each other down publicly for the delight of many."

Posted by Krishan Kumra at January 17, 2006 8:23 PM
Comments
Comment #114155

Ray Nagin is a moron. His city administration was asleep at the switch when they should have been preparing for a storm. The police were not prepared as were not the bus drivers, shelter adeministrators, fire dept and residents. He simply blamed the President and God. He should be tried and imprisioned.

Posted by: Harvey at January 17, 2006 9:06 PM
Comment #114156

He’s sounding alot like a Republican.

Posted by: Dave at January 17, 2006 9:12 PM
Comment #114163

Dave,
“He’s sounding alot like a Republican.”


But he isn’t, he’s a dumb Democrat. He shoots off his mouth without thinking and is ridiculously ineffective. Sorry Dave, but that’s the democrats at their best. Later…

Posted by: rahdigly at January 17, 2006 9:30 PM
Comment #114166

Harvey,
I was in New Orleans when Katrina approached. I participated in the largest peacetime evacuation of a city in American history. Were you there? Because I don’t believe you don’t know what you’re talking about. I think you’re repeating the lies that are fed to you by the Republican party.

For most people, something like 90% of the population of NO, the evacuation went well. For various reasons @ 30,000 people remained in NO, many at the Superdome.

The Mayor and the Gov are not beyond criticism, by any means. But the real problem came after Katrina hit. I can tell you, no one could communicate, and it was a huge problem. Local and state resources were utterly overwhelmed. The real problem occurred when the federal government, specifically FEMA, failed to respond for four to five DAYS to the people remaining in NO. And during that time, leadership from President Bush was utterly absent.

Is Nagin over his head? Could be. I don’t follow the day-to-day news from NO. Many people think Gov Blanco is also out of her league.

But they have company. Because President Bush is over his head, too. He’s out of his league. He can’t lead. He’s arguably the worst president in our history. His ineptitude completely eclipses any personal foibles exhibited by NO’s mayor.

Maybe it’s because Bush believes in the Rapture. What do you think? I’ve heard that. Personally, I think anyone who believes in the Rapture is a loon.

Nice effort, Krishan, on directing attention away from a federal administration that LOST one of our major cities.

Posted by: phx8 at January 17, 2006 9:33 PM
Comment #114168

But he isn’t, he’s Robertson’s a dumb Republican Democrat. He shoots off his mouth without thinking and is ridiculously ineffective. Sorry Dave rahdigly, but that’s the republicans democrats at their best. Later…

Posted by: Dave at January 17, 2006 9:51 PM
Comment #114171

Yes, Dave, there are dumb Republicans.

Rahdigly’s point remains valid, however.

Posted by: Jack at January 17, 2006 9:56 PM
Comment #114172

We all know what would have happened if Bush shoved the hypocrats out of the way and took over sooner. No matter what he does he’s wrong in the left’s eyes.
From the way they (the dems in LA) dealt with Katrina it’s obvious a blue prez wouldn’t have done any better.

As for Nagin’s comments about God’s wrath.. why don’t we hear more about what a loon he is from the left? They should be calling for a loon like him to be thrown out of the blue party.
Oh- that’s right-the left is claiming God is on their side-even tho he doesn’t exist. After all we see them at church services recruiting black voters all the time.

I do give Nagin credit for telling black americans that they need to step up.

Posted by: hypocrats at January 17, 2006 9:58 PM
Comment #114177

Did somebody forget to tell the Mayor not to drink the water???

Posted by: Wind Rider at January 17, 2006 10:08 PM
Comment #114179

Hypocrats,
“No matter what he does he’s wrong in the left’s eyes.”

Getting him to actaully do something can be a trick, though. On 9/11, he read “My Pet Goat” while America was under attack. Someone had to tell him to act.

The worst natural catastrophe in the Bush administration eventually forced him to interrupt his vacation. Remember the tsunami? And remember the pathetic, parsimonious promises of aid made by the Bush administration? What an embarrassment. To our credit, the US upped its intial offer of $35 million to over $1 billion in aid to tsunami victims.

Did you know the US spends over $1 billion per week in Iraq?

But back to leadership. Remember how long it took Bush to react to Katrina?

Here’s a line for the ages:

‘Heckuva job, Brownie.’

Because, unlike Mayor Nagin, President Bush could not take the time to know. Unlike Nagin, President Bush could not take the time to know, to become informed, because President Bush could not take the time to care.

Guarantee you, if those people stranded at the Superdome had been Republican “pioneers,” they would have been airlifted out the next day.

But I’m fascinated by the attitude that a Democrat talking with God is considered to be an object for derision by Republicans. Please tell me- does this extend to all people who have two-way conversatons with God, or is it only a failing when a Democrat like Nagin does so?

Posted by: phx8 at January 17, 2006 10:14 PM
Comment #114182

Jack,

No, rahdigy doesn’t have a point. It was a pointless observation and you people accepted as fact an unsupported interpretation of Nagin’s comments. I didn’t see (correct me if I missed it) Nagin say he had a conversation with God. Your President Bush has said he has, though. I don’t hear you calling him a “moron”.

Posted by: Dave at January 17, 2006 10:24 PM
Comment #114186

Dave

Rahdigly didn’t call Nagin a moron; he called him a Democrat, which is not the same thing (unless you have a different opinion). He did it in response to your comment that said Nagin was sounding like a Republican. The mayor of the City of New Orleans and the Governor of Louisiana are Dems and they are talking and behaving like Democrats.

Posted by: Jack at January 17, 2006 10:40 PM
Comment #114192

Pat Robertson says “God is angry with the US” nothing from the republican column. Nagin says “God is angry with the US” OMG LET’S POST AN ARTICLE STAT!!!!

Posted by: chantico at January 17, 2006 11:00 PM
Comment #114194

Nagin did not say, “God is angry at America”. He said, “Surely God is mad at America”.

For those Republicans who graduated from Kansas and post here, the addition of “Surely” makes the statement rhetorical.

The poor wingnuts need better coordination with their paymasters if they want to raise this as an issue.

Posted by: Aldous at January 17, 2006 11:17 PM
Comment #114203

WOW KRISHAN,

You have republicans are so anti-christianity-ha ha ha ha ha. Why is it that if God talks to Ray Nagin it’s wrong but if Gawd talks to George W. Bush it’s just hunkydory, WTF is that? we don’t even know what messages Gawd has given to GW (Invade other countries and create colonialist quagmires, I command thee).

My question is, will it sell to black voters being that a good many are quite religious to the extremities (speaking in tongues and pentacostalist or very strong Baptists).

I have to agree, nuts is nuts (Pat Robertson influence hmm?) but Nagin isn’t the only political leader (Freedom Fries) that does that talkin’ to Gawd stuff yet F’s up repeatedly too (snipe).

Posted by: Novenge at January 18, 2006 1:28 AM
Comment #114204

Novenge:

Please give me the reference to the last time Gawd talked to GW. I’ll parody it too.

Posted by: Krishan Kumra at January 18, 2006 1:34 AM
Comment #114207

Ooh Rahdigly timeless arguement there, they are dumb ineffective and that’s them at their ‘best’ was it well braniac The WTC didn’t collapse on our WATCH!!!!

Mull it over.

Posted by: Novenge at January 18, 2006 1:42 AM
Comment #114208

Krishan ,

We don’y know what was said but he did make the claim that he talks to Gawd or Gawd has spoken to him—it sells with religious circles.

Posted by: Novenge at January 18, 2006 1:44 AM
Comment #114211
Here are Bush’s exact words, quoted by Haaretz: “God told me to strike at al Qaeda and I struck them, and then He instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me, I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them.”
Posted by: woman at January 18, 2006 1:55 AM
Comment #114229

Chantico,

Post an article about a preacher who talks about God?
He can be a big mouth idiot but he is not the mayor of a city.
The point was that there was no uproar over it until people pointed out the difference in the reaction to Nagin’s comments from the LEFT.
Didn’t he get the memo about global warming?

Posted by: hypocrats at January 18, 2006 7:28 AM
Comment #114231

Ray Nagin should now switch political party to the RIGHT with all his supporters.Come on Black Caucus join the fight!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: peter at January 18, 2006 7:47 AM
Comment #114233

telwidit,

When ‘GOD’ i. e. , GOP, spoketh to Busheth he sayeth; “Go and try to screw up the Social Security system by suggesting that workermen and workwomen pay half of their SS amount to a personal bank acount in ‘approved banking facilities’ that can earn interest on your money in a locked ‘box’. hee hee, oh, and by the way, come up with the most convoluted medicaid plan that will be so screwed that no one understands it but will be a huge profit for the pharmacutical companys. Go I say to thee Bushee
John

Posted by: john at January 18, 2006 7:54 AM
Comment #114236

Read what he said. He is trying to get black communities to step up and take care of themselves.

Shouldn’t we(especially republicans) be cheering this?

Posted by: Schwamp at January 18, 2006 7:56 AM
Comment #114245

I did

I do give Nagin credit for telling black americans that they need to step up.

Posted by hypocrats at January 17, 2006 09:58 PM


But it was ignored because it doesn’t start an arguement.

Posted by: hypocrats at January 18, 2006 9:06 AM
Comment #114256

Nagin has apologized for his comments.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at January 18, 2006 10:08 AM
Comment #114257

Being from the Gulf Coast, I feel qualified to comment. The mayor allowed many folks to die because of his inability to react to the hurricane. All of New Orleans could have been evacuated had he followed the existing plan. That is a proven fact. This speech was exposed here in New Orleans for what it was …bring back my voters or I will have to find a new job. I look again at the postings and the Bush bashers are again in good form. Nowhere in the original posting could I find the word Bush. Typical liberals…cannot discuss with any intelligent conversation, so bash our President instead. So, sad liberals have this hate that blocks all reason.

Posted by: coachken at January 18, 2006 10:17 AM
Comment #114262

That is a proven fact.
Posted by coachken at January 18, 2006 10:17 AM
===============================================

Yah, sure… We believe you.

Posted by: Dave at January 18, 2006 10:36 AM
Comment #114263

So if natural disasters are God’s wrath, what did the Thai & Indonesians do to deserve the tsunami? Or the Germans & Swiss last year during the flooding? etc etc.

Posted by: Buffie at January 18, 2006 10:40 AM
Comment #114267

Thanks Dave. You prove my point. Snide remark with no substance. Typical liberal.

Posted by: coachken at January 18, 2006 10:48 AM
Comment #114276

Coachken,

Snideness aside, Dave’s point is valid. You say: “All of New Orleans could have been evacuated had he followed the existing plan. That is a proven fact.”

I, for one, would like to see the supposed “proof” of this. Can you provide? Thanks.

Posted by: Arr-squared at January 18, 2006 11:12 AM
Comment #114280

Coachken,
I’m waiting for the proof, too. The vast majority of the population were evacuated. That might be a success in terms of numbers, but it still meant tens of thousands of people were left in the city, hence, The Superdome. Any evacuation would have to work on the assumption people would be unable or unwilling to leave.

So, Ken. Let’s hear it. To make it even worse for you, allow me to quote YOU:

“Typical liberals…cannot discuss with any intelligent conversation…”

” So, sad liberals have this hate that blocks all reason.”

Back up your statements, or apologize and withdraw them.

Posted by: phx8 at January 18, 2006 11:24 AM
Comment #114282

That racemonger should step down. what does a liberal know about God or the Bible anyhow. I thought all they kept sacred was murdering the unborn and nd protecting the rights of criminals.
What un unbelieveable LOSER, he should hold a seat on the U.S. senate for the Demoncrats.
Sorry about my harshness but i can’t take them liberal fools any longer.

Posted by: G A phillips at January 18, 2006 11:31 AM
Comment #114283

“That racemonger should step down. what does a liberal know about God or the Bible anyhow. I thought all they kept sacred was murdering the unborn and nd protecting the rights of criminals.”

Wow buddy, you really need to stop with the stereo typing and get out and meet some moderate liberals. It might surprise you, but most of them…..GASP…believe in God, and are very religious. Stop believing in the boogie man that you’ve been sold.

Hypocrat, if the outrage was over the different reaction from the left, then I assume that it’s OK for me to be outraged from the different reaction from the right.

Posted by: chantico at January 18, 2006 11:37 AM
Comment #114284

Nagin is clearly a racist. A white person would have never been forgiven by the “civil rights leaders” so easily. He sounds the total opposite of KKK members. HE shouldn’t even hold office with his ridiculus remarks, and not just on one occasion. Hate, shouln’t be promoted whether white or black by one holding a leadership position such as this. Maybe he should be impeached. I think I will start a petition.

Posted by: clay campbell at January 18, 2006 11:38 AM
Comment #114285

Where is the ACLU? Usually when someone uses religion or God in their speech, there are lawsuits, and protest from the ACLU and other anti-chritian people. Where is that? I guess this is also a political scam. It is only when Republicans do certain things, that it is an outcry! What a Political bucnh of lies by the Democratic party.

Posted by: Clay Campbell at January 18, 2006 11:41 AM
Comment #114286

From many of the after action reports in New Orleans. “How many people would need to be evacuated? In a paper written over a year ago, University of New Orleans researcher Shirley Laska estimated that the city has approximately 120,000 residents who do not have their own transportation and would need to rely on the government. While this is an extremely large number, the Regional Transportation Authority and the local school system have roughly 560 busses in which they could use in an emergency. Assuming that each bus could carry sixty-six passengers, each trip could carry 37,554 residents to safety. Three round-trips would be required to move all 120,000 citizens.

Such a task would naturally be rather time-consuming and fraught with unforeseen difficulties. But it would have almost assuredly save many lives – if it had ever been attempted. Rather than follow their own operating procedures, though, the city allowed the busses to lie dormant and instead advised residents to seek shelter in the Superdome. Only after the storm did the people who had followed this advice discover that they were trapped in the stadium without food or emergency services.” If the plan were followed, many lives could have been saved.

Posted by: coachken at January 18, 2006 11:42 AM
Comment #114289

phx8, unfortunately you and your ilk only know one thing. You wish that the republicans would begin listening to the blather that you try to spew as fact. N.O. (Mayor Nagin told people to go to the Dome, bring food and water to last up to five days. Did the people listen? No they didn’t. Also, the bottom line is no people died at the dome because of starvation or dehydration as loud as Nagin screamed that thousands were going to die. Gov Blanco still dosen’t know that there was a hurricane and flood in her state, and if she does its because someone had to slap her to do anything about it. Hayley Barbour, gov of Mississippi (GOP) acted as a Governor should and is still acting that way. By the way, by all estimates mississippi was more devestated by the Hurrican than Louisiana. You don’t hear people crying they are working to recover. And last but not least the sooner you dems realize that the federal government is not GOD and can’t be expected to solve everyones stupidity. And as a Demorcrate who believes that, it makes you a moron.

Posted by: Brian O'Connell at January 18, 2006 11:47 AM
Comment #114293

phx8,
FEMA has a 48 to 72 hours response time AFTER the storm. FEMA is NOT first responders. Though, because of the scale of this disaster, we became them. When the storm hit on Monday morning (actually Monday morning, we had to take shelter because of weather. Don’t want the trucks filled with supplies flipping because of the wind!), 90% of the FEMA personnel where mobilized and on the way down. A majority started moving on the Saturday before. So now the question stands, where the hell where you if you were ready so early?
Well, the problem arises in that you don’t put your response personnel in the path of the hurricane. Though some were, most staged in Missisippi (Northern) and some in Alabama.
Most of FEMA made it thousands of miles in 36 hours. The hurricane made getting the through the last state or 2 very difficult.

I think you mentioned that communications was a problem. You are correct. But considering the circumstances, it wasn’t THAT bad. Some of the biggest problems faces was people watching TV and making assumptions from that. It takes boots and eyes on the ground to figured out what is needed where. Doing this across the complete area that was affected by the hurricane, and considering that getting to some spots was extremely difficult (thank god for chain saws) to reach.

(Oh yeah, if you knew ANYTHING about emergency management (from your local fd/police on up to the federal level), this is ALWAYS the weak point of a response.)

New Orleans was a unique scenerio.
FEMA went in twice there.
First time was Tuesday night (Note, 24-30hrs afterwards), Wednesday morning. They got run out of their building by the crowd.
I wasn’t part of that phase, so I can’t say much more about it in detail. All I know is that their own security person made them pull out.

Security was a major concern. The media made it MUCH worse that it really was. We could have gone in on Wednesday, but the LA National Guard wasn’t allowed to carry guns (that is controlled by the Govenor, not the president at this point). Once they got guns, and we knew we could operate in that theatre. Turns out that once they got the guns, the victims calmed down. That doesn’t make sense to me, but that’s not my field of knowledge, so…

They got the guns Wednesday, by Thursday at 0400hrs we were starting to roll out. (It’s alot of people and ALOT of equipment. Got there around 10 AM). Stayed there for many days.
It was pretty bad, but we understood that we were in a MAJOR city that just got it’s ass kicked. This is a city with an awful crime rate, awful jobless rate. The people we helped were the poorest and sickest the city had to offer. But most of them were so nice and thankful that we were there.

So before you start slamming FEMA, know what you are talking about. Was it a perfect response? Nope. Could it be better? Definitely, and they are working on it. And I can point to some pretty bonehead things that happened. Unfortuately, the news only really reports the bad stuff, never the good stuff. For every mistake you can tell me about, I can tell you about 100 positive things they did, from putting themselves in harms way to save lifes to going out of their way to help those unique cases that came up.

Posted by: PJ at January 18, 2006 11:52 AM
Comment #114299

PJ,
I was in the evacuation. We left 30 minutes before the official announcement. Many evacuated Saturday, but many others stayed. The storm came in Sunday night. I watched it come in from the Gulf.
Monday afternoon we passed a convoy of Florida state relief trucks heading for NO. I don’t know if they were associated with FEMA, never will know, I guess.

I have tremendous respect for relief workers. The Coast Guard was on top right from the word ‘go.’ The problems with FEMA were not with the workers in the field. I’ve never heard anyone criticize them. The problems were organizational, and they were at the top.

I don’t have time to beat this into the ground, but compare the response to NO with the response to previous large Florida hurricanes. NO might have been worse, & Gulfport worse yet, but the problems were not only a result of the scale of the catastrophe. They can be traced to organizational problems.

Brian,
Critique the message, not the messenger.

Posted by: phx8 at January 18, 2006 12:06 PM
Comment #114301

That is about as shortsighted a comment as I have ever heard! We do and respond from the top down. Fact is that we had boots and personnel on the ground before the promised timeframe. It’s a disaster, bad stuff happens in a disaster of this scale. But trust me, if it was as bad as you have stated, the death toll would have tripled.

Posted by: PJ at January 18, 2006 12:17 PM
Comment #114329

Change the speech from “choclate city” to vanilla, then paste in a white mayor would have equalled a national uproar for that racist to be thrown out of office. No such talk about Nagin.

Posted by: Adam at January 18, 2006 12:57 PM
Comment #114336

noevenge,
“Ooh Rahdigly timeless arguement there, they are dumb ineffective and that’s them at their ‘best’ was it well braniac The WTC didn’t collapse on our WATCH!!!!”


Ok, so “your” watch consisted of 420+ days of the Iran hostage situation; the First WTC-North Tower attack, Waco, Mogadishu, Okla bombings, Cobalt Towers, Embassy bombings, USS Cole, and (of course) the “gutting” and deterioration of the CIA and the FBI, not to mention the military, which created the “wall” for intelligence gathering.


I like how 7 and 1/2 months of Bush’s watch always seems to trump the 8 years of Clinton’s watch with the libs. Nice…

Posted by: rahdigly at January 18, 2006 1:16 PM
Comment #114343

WB Manager:

I’d like to now why simple and unassaultive snide comments (I think it was something like “Yeah, that really proves your point”)are being deleted while abuse and directed rants are not? e.g.

“Thanks Dave. You prove my point. Snide remark with no substance. Typical liberal. Posted by coachken at January 18, 2006 10:48 AM and
phx8, unfortunately you and your ilk only know one thing. You wish that the republicans would begin listening to the blather… And as a Demorcrate who believes that, it makes you a moron.
Posted by Brian O’Connell at January 18, 2006 11:47 AM

Posted by: Dave at January 18, 2006 1:23 PM
Comment #114400

Before anyone gets too carried away with their claims that Nagin epitomizes a typical liberal and/or Democrat, let’s not forget that he was a card carrying Republican all of his life and contributed to GW Bush’s campaign in the 2000 election.

Curiously, he switched parties just before he ran for mayor of New Orleans…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Nagin

Posted by: Charles Wager at January 18, 2006 5:26 PM
Comment #114401

THIS GUY IS DIFFENTLLY ON CRACK.
HE WAS THE ONE THAT LET THE BUSSES SIT THERE…
OH! BUS DRIVERS FLEED, FIND SOMEONE ELSE.
HE WAS THE ONE THAT WAS TOTLLY DISORGANIZED.
HE WAS THE ONE NOT IN CONTROL OF THE POLICE.
HE IS THE ONE THAT IS A RACEIST BIGOT, AS PER HIS LAST TWO STATEMENTS.
HE IS ALSO UN AMERICAN IN HIS COMMENTS AGAINST THE WAR. THE WAR HAS DONE SEVERAL THINGS
1. GOT RID OF A TYRANT MILITANT REGIME.
2. KEPT THE INSURGENTS IN ONE PLACE, OVER THERE.
3. OPENED UP A LARGE OIL MARKET
4. PUT DEMOCACACY IN PLACE ORF DICTATORSHIPS.
5. SUPPRESSED MILITANTS THAT WANT ONLY TO KILL US AND OUR WAY OF LIFE.
THIS WAR IS NOT CHEEP IN OUR SOLDIERS LIVE OR MONEY OUT OF OUR POCKETS TO PAY FOR IT. BUT WE DID NOT START THIS WAR WE WHERE ATTACKED SEVERAL TIMES IN SEVERAL LOCATIONS. I.E. TRADE CENTER, TWO OF OUR EMBASIES, THE COLE, 911 ETC ETC…

Posted by: Bubardnk at January 18, 2006 5:30 PM
Comment #114403

What did the Thai and Indonesians do? They lived in the wrong place at the right time. God won’t be flooding the world again. Last I checked, it’s not our job to be providing support to the entire world. We’re just nice people who have terrorist Muslim assholes trying to kill us because we’re rich (relative to them).

Let’s come full circle here. Did God talk to Nagin? maybe, maybe not. Hardly a subject to argue about.

Posted by: Panther at January 18, 2006 5:53 PM
Comment #114419

WB manager,
I think Dave is right. Don’t Coachken’s remarks deserve at least a bit of a verbal smack? And Brian O’Connell should certainly be banned for calling someone a moron, yes? When people come here for the first time, add really nothing to the conversation, yet immediately break Watchblog rules by insulting individuals, or “all Liberals or Democrats” in general, it instantly screams “flamebaiting troublemaker”. The same is true of anyone from the left who would do the same to “all Conservatives or Republican’s”.

phx8 — excellent posts to this thread.
Aldous is right, the fact that Nagin used the word “surely” made it a rhetorical statement regarding God. And when he said he had an imaginary conversation with Dr. King, that implies just that — Nagin was using his imagination.

Posted by: Adrienne at January 18, 2006 6:16 PM
Comment #114445

I just have to ask, why is this statement by Nagin newsworthy for those on the Right, but no similar column was written by the Right when conservative leaders including Pat Robertson made similar statements about the anger of God and blamed it all on evil liberals and homosexuals?

“Although the loss of lives is deeply saddening, this act of God destroyed a wicked city,” stated Repent America director Michael Marcavage. “From ‘Girls Gone Wild’ to ‘Southern Decadence,’ New Orleans was a city that had its doors wide open to the public celebration of sin. From the devastation may a city full of righteousness emerge,” he continued.
http://www.repentamerica.com/pr_hurricanekatrina.html
Hollywood – Pat Robertson on Sunday said that Hurricane Katrina was God’s way of expressing its anger at the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences for its selection of Ellen Degeneres to host this year’s Emmy Awards. “By choosing an avowed lesbian for this national event, these Hollywood elites have clearly invited God’s wrath,” Robertson said on “The 700 Club” on Sunday. “Is it any surprise that the Almighty chose to strike at Miss Degeneres’ hometown?”
http://datelinehollywood.com/archives/2005/09/05/robertson-blames-hurricane-on-choice-of-ellen-deneres-to-host-emmys/
Steve Lefemine, an antiabortion activist in Columbia, S.C., was looking at a full-color satellite map of Hurricane Katrina when something in the swirls jumped out at him: the image of an 8-week-old fetus.

“In my belief, God judged New Orleans for the sin of shedding innocent blood through abortion,” said Lefemine, who e-mailed the flesh-toned weather map to fellow activists across the country and put a stark message on the answering machine of his organization, Columbia Christians for Life.

“Providence punishes national sins by national calamities,” it said. “Greater divine judgment is coming upon America unless we repent of the national sin of abortion.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090301408.html

And do I really need to remind people here that this is far from the first time that this sentiment has come from the Right? Remember 9/11? Remember Jerry Fallwell and Pat Robertson’s words two days after the attack?

JERRY FALWELL: And, I know that I’ll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way—all of them who have tried to secularize America—I point the finger in their face and say “you helped this happen.”

PAT ROBERTSON: Well, I totally concur, and the problem is we have adopted that agenda at the highest levels of our government. And so we’re responsible as a free society for what the top people do. And, the top people, of course, is the court system.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/87/story_8770_1.html

Funny how you only see it as worthy of derision when it’s said by people who don’t support your political agendas.

Posted by: Jarandhel at January 18, 2006 7:11 PM
Comment #114474

Jarandhel:

This is a political satire. I am sure Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and others have been derided, as they should be for being in touch with Gawd’s feelings and desires. Using God to beat up someone else is very ungodly. It is a shrilly argument - used when logic is not likely to work.

Posted by: Krishan Kumra at January 18, 2006 9:42 PM
Comment #114507

Hey phx8,
Guess what? Your claims regarding FEMA’s failure in the aftermath of Katrina have been entirely vindicated as of today:
Brown Now Says He Deserves Much of Blame

Posted by: Adrienne at January 19, 2006 12:32 AM
Comment #114519

Adrienne,
Thanks for the link. Hilarious! But I feel sorry for PJ. He made a game effort, and did his best to parrot the Republican line. Not easy, seeing as how most people watched what happened on tv. How could PJ know Brownie himself would blow the Republican spin out of the water. Seriously, wrong issue, but nice try, PJ.

These have been strange years. Weird to see the right wing engage in spontaneous Republican combustion, again and again. This thread was bound to end badly for them. Oh well.

Next flame-out? Well, it looks like DeLay and Frist had day traders working out of their offices. Incredible. Not just corruption, but stupid, open, willfully aggressive corruption. There will be the usual attempts by the Bush wingnuts to defend this, but it’s gotta be brutal. Maybe the wingnuts won’t even bother this time, just shriek ‘It’s Clinton’s fault!’ and declare themselves Libertarians.

Posted by: phx8 at January 19, 2006 1:41 AM
Comment #114572

Phx8, It would seem that my calling you a moron has created a stur. I quess my point is that when people that disagree with the policies of the president call him a moron it should be looked at as politics. I haven’t seen anything from you or others that i believe are anti-bush people, chastizing those who ridicule and belittle him or other people in his government. Perhaps you would do well to write to those in the dem party who find it justified to call the man, et. al who were legitimately elected to lead our country.

Posted by: Brian O'Connell at January 19, 2006 7:21 AM
Comment #114576

Adrienne, I just love the phrase “flamebaiting troublemaker”. Isn’t amazing that when a point is made by a person who takes umbrance to liberal rantings and ravings is somehow chastized and accused of being a trouble maker. By the way “ILK” does not necessarily encompass all of anything. “ILK” in my message was intended to reveal those in the anti-bush camp who feel it is OK to ridicule, and belittle he and his government. I would also like to include the people who continually distort policy and in the what has really happened. If you want dialogue then stick to the facts and not the blather heard from the Howard Deans of the anti-bush camp.

Posted by: Brian O'Connell at January 19, 2006 7:41 AM
Comment #114587

The ” Honorable” Mayor Nagin is neither honorable nor a prophet. The lord promissed for all eternity to not flood the earth again after the Noah incident. The Mayor should read his old testiment. His words dishonor his office and show his lack of knowledge of Jewish or Christian beliefs. He should go find a bible and read it.

Posted by: G. DuBois at January 19, 2006 8:54 AM
Comment #114626

It’s amazing how Nagin keeps popping up. To Gov. Blanco’s credit, she’s tried to keep a pretty low profile. I think she’s aware that she was ineffective in her role in this mess. Nagin doesn’t seem to quite get it.

Apparently, according to study Coachkin referred to, 120K people needed assistance in evacuating. Evidently, 75% of those people had friends and/or relatives to assist them or knew how to get assistance. They apparently helped themselves, which is commendable. They did not get that help from either the NO or LA governments. Otherwise, Nagin and Blanco would be touting the fact that they “saved” 90,000 lives. The remaining 30,000 people could’ve been evacuated in ONE trip (550 buses x 60 people per bus = 33,000 evacuees), not the 3 trips that Coachkin advocated.

ONE FREAKIN” TRIP!!!!!! 20 gallons of fuel per bus could’ve gotten them at least 100 miles from NO. That’s about a dollar per evacuee!!! Don’t give me that line of crap that “there were no bus drivers available”….that’s a dirty excuse for abandoning your constituants.

As a officer of a fire/ems department, I can attest that FEMA is not a group of first responders. The local agencies are the front-line personnel. The feds are the support agencies to mobilize additional resources, provide funds for cleanup, relief, rebuilding, etc. They are not the ones that physically pick up debris or swing hammers to rebuild.

“Brownie” didn’t vindicate anyone’s arguments in this discussion, he’s merely accepting the fact that he, personally, made mistakes and, in hindsight, recognizes that he could’ve done things differently and that may have led to different results. That is something I would expect from the head of any orginazatioin. It is also something that Nagin and Blanco have yet to acknowledge for themselves. That doesn’t change my disappointment and disgust for Brown’s failures, but it does show that Brown MAY be a bigger person than Nagin or Blanco.

PHx8,
What did you expect GW to do? Micromanage the situation? Hold up the towers himself? Probably so. I’d expect him to do exactly what he did….let the trained professionals (FDNY, NYPD and NYPA) do their jobs and prepare to support them.

I don’t remember seeing Clinton in NYC helping care for the injured in 1994. I do remember him doing absolutely nothing to prevent any subsequent attacks, though.

Posted by: Rich at January 19, 2006 1:14 PM
Comment #114654

Rich,
What do I expect him to do?

Lead. When it comes to losing a major American city, levees breaking, hundreds of citizens drowning, I expect the president to know more about the situation than I did, not less. While Americans drowned- literally, while they drowned- he was giving a speech in San Diego about the War on Terror.

About Clinton after 1994, you write:
“I do remember him doing absolutely nothing to prevent any subsequent attacks, though.”

Clinton did nothing? Do you remember the Millenium Plot? Remember all the warnings, and some people being concerned about going out to public places on New Year’s Eve?

Perhaps you were too young to remember? That would make your statement completely understandable, though still wrong.

Posted by: phx8 at January 19, 2006 2:25 PM
Comment #114658

“Minneapolis is a Vanilla City, God intends it to be a Vanilla City. Yes, it might be Vanilla Bean with the occasional Black person running around, but it’s most definitely Vanilla. Mmmm, Vanilla.”

Go ahead Libs … beat that up til it hurts … and then I have a reply for you.

Democrats calling Nagin a good mayor are like Republicans calling Jack A. an excellent financier. I trust the Libs will come to their senses an put forth a mayoral candidate who thinks then acts. Nagin’s “Ready, Fire, Aim” tactic is proving disastrous to the city of New Orleans. Defending him now is blind devotion.

Posted by: Ken C at January 19, 2006 2:30 PM
Comment #114685

Ken,
I’m not sure you’ll find many devoted fans of Nagin on either side of the aisle. He’s a lifelong Republican who changed parties only in order to run for office.

The only reason he ever made it into the national spotlight was due to Katrina. I thought he did a decent job back then. It wasn’t for lack of trying, or caring. He was a politian of fairly ordinary talents thrust into an extraordinary situation.

His recent statements were odd, but he has already apologized for the ones most over the top. What really strikes me as odd is Republicans criticizing him for his statements. The attempt by Republicans to deflect blame from FEMA & Bush by attacking Nagin is SOP.

Posted by: phx8 at January 19, 2006 3:01 PM
Comment #114694

phx8:
“Next flame-out? Well, it looks like DeLay and Frist had day traders working out of their offices.”

Whew! The smell of that taint is truly nauseating, no? Jeesus, the taint is so thick you can you can actually see it!
Have you heard about these stories too?:

The congressman & the hedge fund

Republican Congressman made personal loan to bank president shortly before bank extended him $250,000-plus loan

Posted by: Adrienne at January 19, 2006 4:53 PM
Comment #114697

“Adrienne, I just love the phrase “flamebaiting troublemaker”

No doubt.

“Isn’t amazing that when a point is made by a person who takes umbrance to liberal rantings and ravings is somehow chastized and accused of being a trouble maker.”

That’s umbrage, not “umbrance” (hmm, who was supposed to be moron again?). What is more amazing is anyone getting away with calling someone else a moron on this blog. You see, that usually guarantees instant banning from this website. This is because it clearly states CRITIQUE THE MESSAGE, NOT THE MESSENGER above every column. Now, I’ve written to the manager about your violation (and I hope phx8 will too since he’s the one who recieved the insult), but the man seems to have gone missing at the moment. Hopefully he’ll return very soon.

Rich:
““Brownie” didn’t vindicate anyone’s arguments in this discussion,”

Uh, sure he did. And quite unequivocally so.

Posted by: Adrienne at January 19, 2006 5:09 PM
Comment #114706

Adrienne, It seems to me that you are becoming a little unbridled. Some one has called your number and you start to defer to the “UMPIRE”. I do not profess to be the most articulate person in the world. ( I guess its OK for a liberal like you to attack me personally) but god forbid if I call you or anyone else a “MORON”. You don’t really have any thing to add to the debate other than the standards coming from the ANTI-WAR & DEAN CAMPS. You dont’t even know what it means to be an “AMERICAN” You know what it is to be an ANTI-BUSH person not a true “AMERICAN”. When you can come up with a thought that is original, forget about being involved in the debate because all your are is a “MESSENGER FOR THE EXTREME LEFT/ ANTI-BUSH CAMP WHO CAN’T SEE BEYOND there NOSE”. When you can think for yourself come back to the dialogue.

Posted by: Brian O'Connell at January 19, 2006 5:35 PM
Comment #114709

Brian
“Phx8, It would seem that my calling you a moron has created a stur. I quess my point is that when people that disagree with the policies of the president call him a moron it should be looked at as politics”

Until the President posts here, he is not a “messenger” and calling him a moron violates none of the sites policies.

“And as a Demorcrate who believes that, it makes you a moron”

phx8 has posted a messege to this site. Calling him a “moron” is attacking the messenger.

Personal insults do nothing to further the debate.
Please remember that, IF you are lucky enough keep your posting priviledges on WatchBlog.

Posted by: Tim Huff at January 19, 2006 5:50 PM
Comment #114719

Brian,

I disagree with Adrienne’s postings here about as often as I agree with her, but if you read back a few threads, you will see that she provides valid insightful discussion on a variety of views. More to the point, she has actually taken on Dean in a number of her recent postings. So, I don’t think you can count her among his camp.

Play fair, and she will too.

Posted by: Rob at January 19, 2006 6:14 PM
Comment #114723

I agree with about 99% of Adrienne’s posts, and naturally I believe she contributes a great deal to the discussion.

Good thing, considering my crippling moronicalness. Sheesh, people actually fight over whether I’m a moron, or maybe I’m not a moron, just my comments are moronic. Derrrr.

I’m not an umpire or ref, and I’m not the site manager. But once again, I think it’s to everybody’s benefit to crit the message, not the messenger. ‘Nuf said.

Posted by: phx8 at January 19, 2006 7:01 PM
Comment #114727

All I can say beyond what I did rhetorically say is that we as americans have got to start being concerned about AMERICA and not petty political arguments made by people who seem not to really care about the welfare of this country. I will ask does Cinde? Sheehan know more about what is going on then Condeleeza Rice or General Casey? I doubt it. Does that mean she is wrong in her beliefs? probably not. but who are we supposed to believe when it comes to our well being? I said it before and I will say it again, I will never believe that George Bush, Bill Clinton or any of the other people that are elected to “TO TAKE CARE OF US” would deliberately sell us down the river. Did President Clinton get burned in North Korea? Yes, we all know that. Did he do it on purpose of course not. Did President Bush invade Irag for the sake of doing it. I can’t believe that he did. Every country that mattered believed he had potential for WMD. All of us should try to put ourselves in the shoes of the ‘PRESIDENT” he is obligated to protect us right or wrong. Did President Clinton do that when he ordered bombing? I guess anyone can monday morning quaterback and pick apart a decision made without hindsight. We had been attacked for the first time on our soil. What else should we expect from our president. What would Bill Clinton have done? What would Hillary Clinton have? What would any “PRESIDENT HAVE DONE”?? Yes disagreement is part of our ‘AMERICA”. But when desent is counter-productive and only lends to defeat, we all lose. We must realize that the threat against the US is real, and will not go away because we beat ourselves in a way that hurts us and helps our enemies.

Posted by: Brian O’Connell at January 19, 2006 06:17 PM

Posted by: brian O'Connell at January 19, 2006 7:17 PM
Comment #114729

Tim, Iguess it would be useless to try to explain to you that the point was not calling PHX8 a moron. What is the sense of the rhetoric when what is spewed does not help america in way? President Bush was elected by the majority of people in this country. Why is it that all of a sudden people can’t understand that democracy works that way. And yes democracy allows, and encourages debate. However, when we as a country is endangered we should join together and support the effort our elected representatives are trying to do. When one is only attempting to gain politically at the expense of the country we all lose.
we will not be Dems or Reps if we lose the fight. We will be I don’t know what. I will assure you that we will not be debating on blogs if we lose.

Posted by: Brian O'Connell at January 19, 2006 7:28 PM
Comment #114733

Brian,
The problem is not that Bush is sitting in a dark corner, chuckling maniacally, wringing his hands, fiendishly planning his next human sacrifice. No, that is Dick Cheney’s job. (rimshot). The problem is that what Bush perceives as the best thing for America is not necessarily the best thing for anyone other than his own constituency, whose he confuses with the country as a whole.

For example, Bush might honestly believe the best policies for the US are policies which favor Big Oil, and specifically Exxon. All his actions indicate this to be true. The White House consistently fossil fuel, implements foreign policy with that in mind, and opposes Global Warming initiatives because those conflict with ‘what’s best for America.’

I disagree. Vehemently. Furthermore, Bush represents all the people of this country, not just 51%. He serves the people in the government’s executive branch. Serves. Not rules. Serves. All of us.

Posted by: phx8 at January 19, 2006 7:43 PM
Comment #114734

While I love reading these threads, and tend to lean to the rightward side of the issues most of the time, I have to say that I am becoming blown away by the amount of time we waste trying to denigrate positions contrary to our own.

We are so pompous, all of us, so righteous, when defending our views, and so condemning, so snide, so superior, when reading a differing view. (Actually we aren’t really reading, we are just trying to get through so we can form a snappy rebuttal.)

Having been around a while, I harbor no illusions that any one us will solve anything, but one thing I think is clear -

We have become an increasing polarized society… i.e. if you’re a Democrat and are for something, I as a Republican HAVE to be against it, and vice versa. Common ground is anathema and considered a weakness by both parties.

We have long ago crossed the line between respectful differences of belief, and devolved to absolute dislike and distrust of those who don’t think like us. We honor our own opinions, and deride opposing ones.

That is not statesmanship…. it is politics. It makes us the same people we all like to condemn.

If that is your cup of tea, by all means, drink it up. As for me, I think I’ll try to do something to bring this country back together.

Posted by: Doc at January 19, 2006 7:49 PM
Comment #114738

Brian O’Connell, a couple of your comments violate our policy or, appear as flagrant flame bait. Since, you appear to be fairly new here, please heed this one warning to abide by our policy, Critique the Message, NOT the Messengers. Messengers being writers and visitors here at WatchBlog.

Thanks.

Posted by: Watchblog Managing Editor at January 19, 2006 7:59 PM
Comment #114743

Brian O’Connell, in reply to your response to my warning in the Blue column, your 1st amendment rights don’t extend to privately owned and operated web sites. You were a guest here, but in light of your response to my warning about following our policy in the blue column: “All I can say is you are the losers not I”, it appears you have no intention of abiding our policy. Therefore, your guest privileges are revoked here.

Posted by: Watchblog Managing Editor at January 19, 2006 8:16 PM
Comment #114791

Emergency plans on file for New Orleans prior to Katrina called for school buses to transport over 100,000 of invalids and people without means to the relocation centers. Relocation centers were never open and the school buses were under water.

Posted by: Reporting for Doody at January 19, 2006 11:39 PM
Comment #114802

School buses need drivers. Katrina hit after a weekend in late August. That Saturday people in NO realized there was a real chance Katrina would hit. The mandatory evacuation was announced Sunday morning.

I would be curious to know how many municipalities could contact their school bus drivers on a weekend in August.

Most people would agree that, as good as the evacuation of NO was- and we’re talking one of the largest evacuations of a major American city in history- still, it could have been better.

That is why shelters were announced to the public beforehand, and the information was made widely available to the public. In planning, we all know an evacuation will never be 100% effective. Some people cannot or will not leave. But I was made aware of the situation by tv. Shortly after the announcement, policemen came down the street and knocked on the door of every house. I knew about the Superdome. To tell the truth, I would have stayed if Katrina looked to be category 3 or less. We had plenty of supplies, and as it turned out, the house in the Garden District was high enough that it never flooded, and never suffered any looting.

The issue was never the failure to achieve evacuation of 100% of the population. The issue was the failure to relieve the population in NO for four to five days after the flooding.

I’m not at all surprised the local and state efforts were overwhelmed by Katrina; we are, after all, talking about a catastrophe.

As FEMA’s Brown so conveniently stated yesterday (see Adrienne’s link earlier in this thread), the problem was as I stated. The problem was with the relief after the hurricane, not the evacuation before it; and that problem originated with organizational failure at the top of FEMA and the federal government.

Posted by: phx8 at January 20, 2006 12:12 AM
Comment #114811

phx8:
“I agree with about 99% of Adrienne’s posts, and naturally I believe she contributes a great deal to the discussion.”

Thanks! Very glad you think so.
Right back at you, sir.

“Good thing, considering my crippling moronicalness. Sheesh, people actually fight over whether I’m a moron, or maybe I’m not a moron, just my comments are moronic. Derrrr.”

I look at it like this — here we are talking about how the president has been breaking our rule of law, and how no one should think they are above such things, no matter who they are. Well, in his very first post that guy broke the ONE rule of WB — then did it again after we drew this fact to his attention. He deserved to get canned.

“I’m not an umpire or ref, and I’m not the site manager. But once again, I think it’s to everybody’s benefit to crit the message, not the messenger. ‘Nuf said.”

Such seamless sangfroid…
Aw jeeze, I feel like such a fusspot! :^)

Posted by: Adrienne at January 20, 2006 12:57 AM
Comment #114910

I’m jumping into the middle of this and haven’t read the comments yet. If I mange to have time later I’ll do that and respond to any I fell I should.
Yeah, I’m back. Been busier than a one legged man at a butt kicking contest.
If God spoke to the idiot Mayor Ray Nagin at all it was to tell him to repent for being stupid.
This moron botched things so bad during Katrina that I’m suprised that anyone pays him any mind anymore.

Posted by: Ron Brown at January 20, 2006 1:09 PM
Comment #114919

Pat Robertson says “God is angry with the US” nothing from the republican column. Nagin says “God is angry with the US” OMG LET’S POST AN ARTICLE STAT!!!!

Posted by: chantico at January 17, 2006 11:00 PM

No need for the Red side to say anything, the Blue side was all over it.

Posted by: Ron Brown at January 20, 2006 1:51 PM
Comment #114922

Adrienne
Thanks for the link. It’s good to see someone from inside the Beltway finially taking the responsibility for something for a change.

Posted by: Ron Brown at January 20, 2006 1:58 PM
Comment #114924

Clinton did nothing? Do you remember the Millenium Plot? Remember all the warnings, and some people being concerned about going out to public places on New Year’s Eve?

Posted by: phx8 at January 19, 2006 02:25 PM

Come on you mean that Clinton single handedly stopped the Millenium Crash? Give me a break.

Posted by: Ron Brown at January 20, 2006 2:05 PM
Comment #114940

Nagin should be thrown out of office! The racist, lying and ignorant man. You don’t say things like that unless you have some feeling in your heart about these things. What a stupid excuse”I got caught up in the moment”. I think maybe he and Pat Robertson should share the same house.

Posted by: Clay Campbell at January 20, 2006 3:15 PM
Comment #115559

it doesnt surprise me that a democrat would make such comments….I would like to see if a (white) republican made comments like this…they would already be trying to impeach him…give me a break…racism is so reverse today its not even funny….
he wants a chocolate city…could you imagine if mayor bloomberg in nyc said he wants a vanilla city..(oh wait god wants a vanilla city)…people would be rioting in the streets…along with al sharpton and jesse jackson…and by the way whats there reaction to his comments…everyone keeping quiet now…shhh…lets wait for the republicans to do or say someething…we think might be a little racist ..then we attack..give me a break…this guy (nagin) should be removed he is a idiot…

Posted by: danielle at January 22, 2006 10:31 AM
Comment #115795

Wow! Some of these posts are kind of incoherent now. It looked like it was about Ray Nagin and some unfortunate and somewhat puzzling things he said and the debate disintegrated from there. Ray Nagin is doing what a lot of people thrust into the national spotlight do, make a total ass of himself, just not on purpose. It is kind of a normal response to that sort of attention. The guy is probably hoping to be some sort of activist for change, but he really should get a good speechwriter for that sort of thing. I tend to try to give people the benefit of the doubt that they are actually trying to be malicious in their intent. I can see that Nagin is horrified that people died under his watch and his evacuation and shelter instructions were so inneffective to some of his citizens. I saw the people on the news lining up to go into the Superdome, but I saw them with only handfuls of things going in, not food and water for five days. How do you stand in line for hours toting food and water for that many days for yourself and your kids, etc.? Somebody should have thought about that bonehead idea. I guess everybody is angry about the tragedy and want somebody to be held responsible for it, but that ain’t gonna happen in any legal sense. We should just let these people fade into the obscurity they so richly deserve, if we can’t get any of them to face penalties for their mistakes.

Posted by: Independence at January 23, 2006 3:30 AM
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