'Tookie' to be Terminated

Hollywood Liberal activists tell us that this man is a man of peace deserving of clemency for the acts of redemption he’s performed. He’s been nominated for the Nobel Peace prize five times? (*That sound is me scratching my head in quiet perplexity.*) Does anyone else find the left-wing’s fixation and hero-worship of murderous thugs troublesome? Which reminds me, when does Mumia meet his final state-induced consummation?

Frustration. Fixation. Adulation. Accusation.
(I always break out the rhyming dictionary whenever I am going to mention Jesse Jackson.)

These are just some of the dramatic words that describe what should otherwise be a complete non-event. The death of Tookie Williams will be no great loss. In fact, it will barely be recompence for the lives he took for his own petty, evil, and selfish desires.

The absurdity to which leftists will go to make a hero out of someone who murdered four people in cold blood is in itself chilling. The message that hollywood liberal activists like Mike Farrell, Jesse Jackson, and Bianca Jagger send is that justice is not blind; it is an empty promise.

What's really perverse about their activism is that it centers completely, like Tookie's own selfishness, around 'Tookie' Williams.

Mr. Williams violated his victims human rights by executing them without a trial. For that his punishment is death. If Mr. Williams wanted to rehabilitate, he should start by paying the penalty for his crimes and expediting his own execution as he did Albert Owens, Yen-I Yang, Tsai-Shai Yang, and Yee-Chen Lin's executions.

7-11 Robbery-Murder: Albert Owen Killed for $120.00 cash and for 'being white'.

As Darryl and Sims walked to the counter area to take money from the register, Williams walked behind Owens and told him “shut up and keep walking.” While pointing a shotgun at Owens’ back, Williams directed him to a back storage room. Once inside the storage room, Williams, at gunpoint, ordered Owens to “lay down, mother fucker.” Williams then chambered a round into the shotgun. Williams then fired the round into the security monitor. Williams then chambered a second round and fired the round into Owens’ back as he lay face down on the floor of the storage room. Williams then chambered a third round and fired again into Owens’ back.

...After Williams murdered Owens, he, Darryl, Coward and Sims fled in the two cars and returned home to Los Angeles. The robbery netted Williams and his associates approximately $120.00. Once back in Los Angeles, Williams asked if anyone wanted to get something to eat. When Sims asked Williams why he shot Owens, Williams said he “didn’t want to leave any witnesses.” Williams also said he killed Owens “because he was white and he was killing all white people.”

Later that same day, Williams bragged to his brother Wayne about killing Owens. Williams said, “you should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him.” Williams then made gurgling or growling noises and laughed hysterically about Owens’ death. lacountyda.org (PDF warning)

Brookhaven Robbery-Murders: Father, Mother and Daughter of Yang family killed for $100.00 cash

At approximately 5:00 a.m. on March 11, 1979, Stanley Williams entered the Brookhaven Motel at 10411 South Vermont Avenue. After entering the public lobby area, Williams broke down the door that led to the private office. Once inside the private office, Williams, using his shotgun, killed seventy-six year old Yen-I Yang; Williams also killed Yang’s wife, sixty-three year old Tsai-Shai Yang; lastly, Williams killed Yang’s daughter, forty-three year old Yee-Chen Lin. Williams then removed the currency [$100] from the cash register and fled the location.

...As they [the police] entered, they saw Yen-I Yang lying on a sofa. He was “soaked with blood,” “gasping for air, and making gurgling noises.” They also saw the bloodied body of Tsai-Shai Yang. She was making “gurgling noises” and “gasping for air,” with “her knees drawn up under her, and her face down on the floor,” as if she had been forced to bow down before being killed. Lastly, the deputies found the body of Yee-Chen Lin lying on the hallway floor. lacountyda.org (PDF warning)

Iraq is better off without Saddam, and we are better off without Tookie Williams.

Posted by Eric Simonson at December 13, 2005 1:44 AM
Comments
Comment #101780

Indeed. And Evangelical Christian WingNuts will convince us that a woman with half of her brain destroyed isn’t really braindead.

FYI… There is evidence that the “witness” you mentioned was lying an Tookie was never at that robbery.

Posted by: Aldous at December 13, 2005 2:03 AM
Comment #101790

Personally, I am not for the death penalty in any case. The process is long, far more expensive for the state than life imprisonment, and many mistakes are made.

Tookie says he didn’t do the crime, and it certainly seems like he doing more good for society keeping kids out of gangs than he will dead. However, I can understand Arnold’s position. There’s no evidence to overturn the conviction and this is the sentence given by the state.

I just think the system is stupid. I understand the victims’ families want retribution, but life imprisonment should be sufficient for that, especially for christians.

We haven’t made Iraq better off than it was with Saddam yet. That’s something I would really like to see, but to have it really happen you need to work for it. You can’t just say it.

Posted by: Max at December 13, 2005 2:46 AM
Comment #101799

Max is right. This Tookie matter is just another GOP distraction from what is important. I am not surprised Eric included a Hollywood bash in his post. Its just SOP for Repugs these days.

Posted by: Aldous at December 13, 2005 3:11 AM
Comment #101812

Max, I agree 100%.

Does anyone else find the right-wing’s fixation and motivation for revenge without redemption troublesome? If I were a Christian, I would be as worried about the souls of the righties demanding their pound of flesh as I would be about Tookie’s.

If I recall my Shakespeare correctly, it was Christians who argued against Shylock’s demand for a pound of flesh. That’s one of the problems with relgion, so many sing its hymns, and so few live by its prescriptions. Just show up on Sunday and throw a few bucks in the collection plate, and all your sins of revenge are forgiven.

Posted by: David R. Remer at December 13, 2005 4:37 AM
Comment #101820

Eric,
Is not “Revenge” in any form better left to God’s Nature? Yes, if Tookie killed these citizens than he realized that his life was marked. However, the State (ie “We the People) should never use the Death Penalty to seek political gain. In watching the news tonight, I do believe that the Conservative Movement in America showed its butt tonight over the remarks like yours.

Although I do support the Death Penalty, the principles that I believe the intent of the law bare wittiness to is calculated cold blooded murder that includes “Crimes against Humanity & Nature.” Did the four people that Tookie is to of killed meet this standard given the facts of his environment in 1979 is one that only the DA can answer and live with. That is his curse for doing his job.

However, where the Republicans are losing major ground is over the bigger question that their leadership failed to address. Did the fact that Tookie realize that his lifestyle and that which he help co-found was wrong? Did the fact that upon learning this information was he not moved and motivated to do something about it matter to our prison system which is suppose to pride itself on reform of the individual? Could not Society have used Tookie as a Role Model to not only eliminate the Gangs in America, but how to combat the making of Terrorists?

No, even the future death of Saddam should not bring joy to “We the People” or should it be seen as an ultimate solution for which is a worse Death Penalty; Instant Death? or living every day for the rest of your natural life reliving the moment you died as a Human?

Posted by: Henry Schlatman at December 13, 2005 5:04 AM
Comment #101828

I think the real point that the Govenor was trying to make was that if Tookie had so seen the error of the ways, and had admitted to so much, why then would he not admit guilt to the murder? The point is that several courts found this man guilty, no one denies his involvement in the creation of the Crypts, and it seems beyond reasonable doubt that he did pull the trigger.
Yes, perhaps he did change a lot in prison, the fact remains however that he did not change enough to admit his own guilt. I think that is a major component as to why not only the Governor, but also the 9th Circuit Appelate and the Supreme Court denied his petition.
I do have to side with Eric on this one: just because an inmate has some celebrity backing does not mean that it is a right winged distraction, or for that matter a failure in leadership. If anything it should be a sign of Republicans respecting legal precedent.
Furthermore I am not so sure how much of an impact Tookie would have had on society to answer Henry’s questions. His books and motives certainly were respectable, however as Eric alluded to, after his media hype waned how powerful of a figure would he be? The answer is most likely, not very at all.
In the end, do I think the Death Penalty is perfect, no. Do I think it needs reform, yes. Does part of me wish Tookie has been granted a stay of exectution, yes. But ultimately, the process should be blind to the celebrity bloating that sorry, is generally left winged based. All in all, Tookie was adressed fairly and consistenltly by “we the people” and thus is subject to our verdict. Yes, 2,000 people showed up, yes some of them were celebrities, but if he was such a sweeping phenominon why only 2,000? Why was there only press coverage once before his execution and then today? Why, because the system was utilized to its up most potential and the “We the people” as a majority gave our verdict.

Posted by: The BDB at December 13, 2005 5:36 AM
Comment #101835

Aldous,
“And Evangelical Christian WingNuts will convince us that a woman with half of her brain destroyed isn’t really braindead.”


By bringing up the “Schiavo” case, you are actually proving the right-wingers point. People said (and I’m one of them) that if Schiavo had killed or raped someone, people would have fought to keep her alive. Convicts and terrorists receive more rights and “Due Process” than an innocent, brain-dead woman. Nice. Real nice. Hollywood chose the wrong side once again…

Posted by: rahdigly at December 13, 2005 6:27 AM
Comment #101842

I was for the death penalty until I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior. I am now of the belief that as long as a lost soul lives, they have a chance for salvation. The death penalty takes that chance away.

If Mr Williams committed those crimes, then life in prison without parole would IMHO be a fair punishment. I don’t agree with the system, but Gov. S did the right thing in supporting the rule of law.

Posted by: mac6115cd at December 13, 2005 7:35 AM
Comment #101843

BDB,
Although I can not say that Tookie was given his due process, I am old enough to remember the upheval that was taking place in our urban settings during that time of the killings. The problem that I point out is the fact like Eric others seem proud that our Society and Nation has that power over Life & Death.

No one will know if granting Tookie his life would of stopped someone in the future from going on a rampage and killing 40 people in a moment of rage; however, the one thing that we do know as a society is the fact that we lost the ability to study and understand what drives someone to that edge of life where Humanity dares not travel.

Murders, robbing, and even terrorism requires that the individual lowers that wall that keeps them Human. Tookie more than most understood the power that it brings. Additionally, his person experience and knowledge of the interworking of the mind could of aided the President and our Troops in winning the Hearts and Minds of Iraq’s citizens on the edge.

Guilty or not was not the question that a govern has to answer when granting clemency. However, the governor must answer to “We the People” for his actions. Thus, the Society is protected as Tookie’s death has proved that the Community Leaders and the Youth of the Urban Area’s show that they understand how to “Play the Game.”

Unlike in the 60’s and early 70’s, this section of society has grown up more than any other group in society. Grassroot Organizations from all walks of life are sprouting up all over. Even as we blog in real time has placed a heavier burden on those who preside over the power of our Nation. Iraq, Katrina, and 9/11 has changed the political playground in America forward and by the Republican Leadership being seen as the Political Party that wants to hang on to those issues that devide a society that was rampant in their FREE SPEECH.

If politics is ever to replace war as a way of life than the duty and responsibility of our government and society is to move the discussion of Societal Equality & Redemption to a higher level. For why we can talk about if Tookie and others are guilty or not, why is it that the Republican Leadership never wants to politically discuss the social factors that create the space which allows this type of Human Nature to exist in our Lands.

Posted by: Henry Schlatman at December 13, 2005 7:46 AM
Comment #101844

mac6115cd, I agree. But where is the justice when Tookie receives no consideration for his reforming himself, while Presidents pardon those who act illegally on far lesser crimes? Does anyone believe DeLay, if found guilty, would reform as opposed to rebelling to his conviction?

When a person like Enron’s former chief steals from millions of Americans should not his crime be met with punishment far more severe than that of a one time burglar or drug user busted for posession? Lay commits his crimes against millions of Americans and the against the very foundation of our economic system. A burglar or drug posessor’s crime harms only a few people at most. Where is the justice when Lay gets 20 years and is released after 8, while the burglar or possessor serves the same amount of time?

This country long ago abandoned rational sentencing for criminal behavior. Sentencing today reflects far more a person’s status in society than any standard of greater punishment for greater crime. If Tookie must die, why is Charles Manson still alive? Manson has never had any redeeming qualities or desire to reform.

Posted by: David R. Remer at December 13, 2005 8:00 AM
Comment #101845

Henry,
“Although I can not say that Tookie was given his due process”


Why can’t you say he was given his due process? Do you think he received his due process or not?


“The problem that I point out is the fact like Eric others seem proud that our Society and Nation has that power over Life & Death.”


Does that mean you oppose abortion as well as the death penalty?

Posted by: rahdigly at December 13, 2005 8:01 AM
Comment #101847

BDB said: “the process should be blind to the celebrity bloating”

On that one point we agree entirely.

Posted by: David R. Remer at December 13, 2005 8:02 AM
Comment #101853

Tookie Williams should not be the poster child for the opponents of the death penalty. Its acceptable to rail against the death penalty and to point out its errors. But using Tookie Williams for that purpose is counterintuitive.

Side note: I have no moral objections to the death penalty. I do have concerns about the application of the death penalty and the finality of it, with no availability to correct it or change it.

Tookie was given the benefit of our legal system and found guilty. There has not been any evidence presented that would overturn this verdict. He has claimed his innocence, but this is not uncommon to hear in prisons.

His redemption later in life doesn’t change what he did. He still deserves to be punished. If we take redemption to its end, then we should free those who truly redeem themselves, declaring that their later acts are more important than their former acts.

Discuss the death penalty, its merits, its tragedies to any extent you wish. But Tookie Williams shouldn’t be the example for overturning it.

Posted by: joebagodonuts at December 13, 2005 8:15 AM
Comment #101854

Hi joebagodonuts,

“Tookie Williams should not be the poster child for the opponents of the death penalty.”

I agree. I’m not in favor of the death penalty but I can understand the reasons why it’s used.

I’m very much not in favor of making poor Toockie a poster child for anything that can be called “good”.

Posted by: LouisXIV at December 13, 2005 8:19 AM
Comment #101855

If people were required to have a funeral service after an abortion - would there be as many?

Posted by: dawn at December 13, 2005 8:21 AM
Comment #101856

Rahdigly,
Actually I do have to say it in that manner Rahdigly. See I have not read all the documents nor have wittinessed the crime since I was out of the country at the time of the Human Event. However, in listening equally to both sides of the public debate, I can see why “We the People” rely on Our Ladies and Gentlemen who were “The Black Robe” to have Principle, Prudence, and Precedence in their Life and Nature.

As far as being against the death penalty, I have to ask you how you figured that out? The reason that I ask is that earlier in this post I spoke up for Capital Punishment, but question the manner that it is applied in our society. For as far as I am concerned and most Americans that I have met is if a person is not willing to stop at the line where their actions and words would be considered to be unhuman than why should “We” as a society attempt to treat them like one because by Nature they are not Human. Tookie, regardless of his crime came to understand that while playing on the other side is exciting, Life beings when the hearts of others are given to one’s own life. To bad the republicans and democrats have taken our political debate once again into the gutter.

Posted by: Henry Schlatman at December 13, 2005 8:27 AM
Comment #101858

Hi Dawn,

Do you mourn the death of a human zygote (fertilized egg) as much as you do a four year old child?

If there was a fire in a fertility clinic and you could save a jar containing 100 embryos or save a four year old child which would you save?

Posted by: LouisXIV at December 13, 2005 8:43 AM
Comment #101862

Louis,

Your image of what is aborted is the reason why abortion is ‘easy’.
That was my point.
When someone chooses an abortion they don’t have to dispose of the zygote - as you put it.
If my choice was between the jar of embryos and Tookie - I would pick the embryos.
Choice between the child and the jar - child of course.
If I could - I would go back for the jar.

I asked a straight forward question and the ‘answer’ you gave was not.


Posted by: dawn at December 13, 2005 9:02 AM
Comment #101865

Hi Dawn,

“Your image of what is aborted is the reason why abortion is ‘easy’.”

It’s not easy at all. Women who have had abortions don’t say that it’s easy.

You seem to aknowledge that the death of a zygote is far less profound than the death of a four year old child.

Your funeral example involves forcing people to say that an abortion is something that it’s not……death of a person.


Posted by: LouisXIV at December 13, 2005 9:09 AM
Comment #101866

I am against the death penalty

I am for a woman’s right to choose.

I am against late term abortion unless for the health of the mother.

Zygotes are not people, they are potential people. They are potential in the same way the hundreds of thousands of zygotes which are spontaneously aborted by the body every year are. Tell you what, Dawn. Every morning you go to the waste treament plant and hold a funeral for those spots of “almost”. While you’re at it, collect all the used condoms and make masterbation illegal.

Posted by: Dave at December 13, 2005 9:13 AM
Comment #101869

I put ‘easy’ in quotes to show that it is not REALLY easy - guess you didn’t catch that.

AND I put the life of the zygote above Tookie’s.

Part of the fight to save Tookie involved saying what good Tookie COULD do if kept alive.
We’ll never know what an aborted zygote COULD have done if given the chance.

Just so you know - I am for a woman’s choice.

Posted by: dawn at December 13, 2005 9:18 AM
Comment #101870

Hi Dawn,

“AND I put the life of the zygote above Tookie’s.”

I do not think Tookie is a valuable person. A zygote isn’t a person at all.

“We’ll never know what an aborted zygote COULD have done if given the chance.”

You believe “every sperm is sacred”?

Posted by: LouisXIV at December 13, 2005 9:21 AM
Comment #101873

mac6115cd,

“I was for the death penalty until I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Savior.”

The difference is that you are a practicing Christian. Those on the far right just practice sounding Christian.


Is this person a criminal? Absolutely.
Do I believe he deserves to die? It is not my decision to make.
Is it troubling that the right(The moral ones)are celebrating the death of a fellow human being, regardless of that persons character? Absolutely.
Far right Christian fundamentalists are the biggest hypoctites. We love Jesus but we love to judge others, love to hate those who are different,love to kill,love to be sanctimonious and too damn bad if it contradicts the teachings of Christ.

Posted by: Andre M. Hernandez at December 13, 2005 9:24 AM
Comment #101880

Henry,
“Actually I do have to say it in that manner Rahdigly. See I have not read all the documents nor have wittinessed the crime since I was out of the country at the time of the Human Event. However, in listening equally to both sides of the public debate, I can see why “We the People” rely on Our Ladies and Gentlemen who were “The Black Robe” to have Principle, Prudence, and Precedence in their Life and Nature. As far as being against the death penalty, I have to ask you how you figured that out? The reason that I ask is that earlier in this post I spoke up for Capital Punishment, but question the manner that it is applied in our society.”


Henry, please forgive me if I sound too forward, I still don’t know what (exactly) you’re talking about. Do you or don’t you believe he received due process?

And, I should have phrased the death penalty question differently. To your comment you posted earlier: “our Society and Nation has that power over Life & Death”, do you oppose abortion and the Death penalty? Do you oppose both? One? Neither?


Posted by: rahdigly at December 13, 2005 9:54 AM
Comment #101886

David R. Remer,

If Tookie must die, why is Charles Manson still alive? Manson has never had any redeeming qualities or desire to reform.

Manson is still alive because the “cruel and unusual punishment” crowd succeeded in swaying the Courts to put a stop to the death penalty. When Manson was convicted, the death penalty was not an option!

This country long ago abandoned rational sentencing for criminal behavior. Sentencing today reflects far more a person’s status in society than any standard of greater punishment for greater crime.

While there is some truth to this, painting the picture with such a wide brush is misleading. The fact that most convicted criminals happen to be poor, which is probably why they are stealing or dealing, doesn’t mean the system is bad.

Yes, there are exceptions. For example, a rich black man can be acquitted of murdering his ex-wife and a complete innocent. Likewise, a rich white man can be acquitted of murdering his wife. But, it is not the fault of the system, it is the jury who is to blame!

Posted by: Michael A. Burns at December 13, 2005 10:03 AM
Comment #101887

Dawn,
I hope this holiday season find you and your family well. As to the point of your argument,Congratulations! Point well made given a Life for a Life is it not?

LouisXIV,

While “Life” should retain it’s magic for so many reasons, the least is the fact that even as Adults “We” know that there are just some questions that you just really don’t want to know why let alone have to explain why, the Lost Art of “What If” has been lacking in America’s Politics and Society for many years. The point where a “Carbon Unit” becomes a Human Being is not anywhere close to being understood by medicine let alone the average layman. The same can be stated by the reasons that allow a Human to resort to their Primeval Emotions that allows one to show harshness in their actions and spoken word?

Maybe, one of these days the Left and Right in American Politics will learn to “Critique the Message, not the Messenger.” What is Right and True over the issues that allow the conditions which allow both things to be a necessity is what reasonable intelligent citizens can address as a Nation and a Society. Done by the Elders of this Congress in the 60’s, how strange is it those who yelled that the “Establishment is Wrong” now run and hide their heads in the sand instead of working to fix the problems that were known to be wrong than and now? Hopefully one day we can live in a world were wars are solved be Righteous not Ignorance.

Posted by: Hemry Schlatman at December 13, 2005 10:05 AM
Comment #101891

Hi Henry,

I don’t see the issue of abortion as a simple/simplistic one at all.

I agree with you that nobody can really say when a developing embryo becomes a person.

I think it’s silly to assert that a zygote has all the rights that a born person has though.

I have a friend who is Catholic. After years infrequent discussions of abortion he finally agreed that a zygote isn’t a person and nobody knows when it becomes one.

I tend to disagree with people who say that the issue is simple no matter which side they’re on.

Posted by: LouisXIV at December 13, 2005 10:19 AM
Comment #101898

Whose life has the zygote taken so that it deserves the death penalty?
A murderous, racist piece of trash says he has reformed and people want to forgive and forget what he did.
An innocent shouldn’t be allowed to form and given a chance, instead it should be forgotten.

Posted by: kctim at December 13, 2005 10:44 AM
Comment #101899

Rahdigly,
Sorry about that. I’m trying to tell you that I have only the hope that our court system worked correctly in this case. Haven been in Germany in 79’ I missed the case in the news. Since the media today lacks the will power to dig into the truth on almost any subject, my faith in the Nation’s Judges willingness to see Righteous done in the Courts of the Land did all they could for Tookie. The bottom line came down to did he show remorse for his actions. And I’ll leave that question to the one person who had the Constitutional Right and Duty to do the right thing. The problem is no one alive today will be able to know the outcome.

As far as the death penalty Although I do support the Death Penalty, the principles that I believe the intent of the law bare wittiness to is calculated cold blooded murder that includes “Crimes against Humanity & Nature.” is what I wrote earlier.

Abortions or the right of Mother to have domain over that which was created inside her is a lot larger issue than just life and death. Included in one’s thought has to awaken to the fact that society has to provide x,y, & z in order to insure a simple productive life for this potentail citizen. If the citizen or their environment does not support this endeavor than which is worse. Bring into this Nation an unwanted citizen who can not live at the standard of living imposed on them by society or wait until one is properly prepared to ensure the opportunity for a quality life?

A hard call and on as a Man I do not have to make. However, as I am not willing to give The State control over my reproductive system, the 14th Amendment declares that I also must give a woman the right to her reproductive system. So while I wish the Left and Right would get off the subject of abortion and focus on prevention. As long as males are naive about the ways of a lady than I am forced to support Pro-Choice. Want to change my mind? Fix the problem that our parents could not and would not come to terms with.

Posted by: Hemry Schlatman at December 13, 2005 10:46 AM
Comment #101900

The only remaining question will be who will be cast as Tookie in the movie which is sure to be made following this execution. Mr. T might be a good candidate.

Maybe all proceeds from the movie should go to the families of those he brutally murdered or, to the causes he championed during and after his redemption.

Agree with the death penalty or not, according to the LAW, the appropriate punishment was administered.

Posted by: steve smith at December 13, 2005 10:46 AM
Comment #101902

David Remer,

Comparing Tookie Williams to Delay and the Enron case is shockingly wrong and immoral.

You have a lot of insightful things to say, but they all get washed away when you blindly write such unbalanced words.

Frankly, you need to try to stay fair and balanced. When your partisanship screams out like that you lose credibility. Comparing a cold-blooded murderer to a politician (not including Condit), it appears as though you are just being a partisan. Aren’t you more than that?

Posted by: Bruce P at December 13, 2005 10:49 AM
Comment #101910

Bruce,
While civic and political leaders may not pull a gun and shot citizens to say that even some of their actions do not cause the death of Humans shows one’s limited sight in the deals made in chambers does it not? Or is it only killing if you get caught?

Posted by: Hemry Schlatman at December 13, 2005 10:58 AM
Comment #101915

One would think if the 9TH Circus Court of Appeals (the most highly overturned circuit court in the U.S. @ 75%+) could not conjure up a reasonable(to them) excuse to grant a stay to Tookie, this alone should speak volumes about this case.

Posted by: pige at December 13, 2005 11:08 AM
Comment #101923

David~

Comparing murderers to financial criminals IMO shows who is more obsessed with $$. You do realize that money can be rebuilt, a human life cannot right?

Also..Charles Manson did not kill anyone, he had others do it for him. Most of those “killers” in fact are now living free lives or very minimaly secured ones!
So in a nut shell..their cases are comparable…the mastermind in both of these senerios paid the ultimate price among their inner circles.
As a side note…the reason that Manson will never have celebrity supporters is because he “killed” celebrities..and all of us commoners know that that is a much worse offense than some stupid covenient store clerk!!In their eyes anyways!

Posted by: Traci at December 13, 2005 11:39 AM
Comment #101930

Excerpt from an article regarding Tookie’s in prison conduct….


In 1981, Williams was caught beating up an other inmate with his fists, and ignored orders to stop. In 1982, Williams refused to an order to line up…and told a guard “you’ll get yours boy, I can do anything now because I know what the gunmen will do…one of these days I’ll trick you boy.” Twice that same year, Tookie attacked guards with chemical substances. In 1984, Tookie was back to beating up another inmate…and didn’t stop until a guard fired a warning shot. Also in 1984, Williams was caught making out with a female visitor. He told the guard then “you are looking around too much and that’s not your job. I have dusted many officers on the street, one more would not make any difference.” Sounds reformed to me. But there’s more…1986…he beat up another inmate. 1988..he was stabbed in retaliation for a stabbing he ordered of another inmate. 1991…Tookie was again caught beating up another inmate. Same thing again in 1993. Get the idea?

Posted by: steve smith at December 13, 2005 11:58 AM
Comment #101931
When Manson was convicted, the death penalty was not an option!

Actually, Manson was given the death penalty. When the death penalty was removed, his sentence was changed to life in prison. When the death penalty was re-instated, they could not go back to reissue the original death penalty sentence.

It was not, as was unfortunately insinuated, because he was white while Tookie was black.

Posted by: Billy Joe Bob at December 13, 2005 12:00 PM
Comment #101937

Hi kctim,

“Whose life has the zygote taken so that it deserves the death penalty?”

Who said a zygote deserves the death penalty?

I said that a zygote is not a person. I didn’t say that it deserved anything.


Posted by: LouisXIV at December 13, 2005 12:22 PM
Comment #101947

Eyewitnesses are nototiously fallible. If there was no DNA evidence and the felon was steadfast in his claims of innocence, a governor should strongly consider stepping in. My gut feeling is this guy was innocent.

Posted by: Schwamp at December 13, 2005 12:30 PM
Comment #101950

David:

When a person like Enron’s former chief steals from millions of Americans should not his crime be met with punishment far more severe than that of a one time burglar or drug user busted for posession? Lay commits his crimes against millions of Americans and the against the very foundation of our economic system. A burglar or drug posessor’s crime harms only a few people at most. Where is the justice when Lay gets 20 years and is released after 8, while the burglar or possessor serves the same amount of time?

Tookie Williams is a convicted murderer, while Ken Lay has yet to be convicted (or perhaps even charged) of crimes relating to Enron. If he is charged and convicted, I hope he gets the book thrown at him. But its simply not right to assume his guilt and then discuss him in the same light as a convicted murderer.

Posted by: joebagodonuts at December 13, 2005 12:32 PM
Comment #101952

If a person is in such a state as to be willing to kill somebody, to dare such a thing that our nature and social training tends to rebel against, then punishment will not discourage them. Typically, avoiding punishment, not thinking about alternative forms of punishment is the person’s first idea. They think of ways to hide the evidence, excuse the deed, or get the heck out of dodge.

Another question arises, and it comes from the fact that we’ve only had a thousand executions since the Death Penalty was legalized: how many people are on death row, compared to how many have actually been executed?

Rightly so, a high degree of certainty is demanded of those who send folks to execution. Two things have come from that: a great number of the people on Death Row have no business being in prison, much less being put to death. DNA evidence has exonerated many. Additionally each prisoner comes with the expense and difficulties that come with an extended appeals and clemency process.

Let’s put this in perspective: I’m 26 years old. When the subject of this article committed his crime, there is a strong likelihood I wasn’t born yet. This execution was for a crime committed in 1979.

If Tookie Williams had been sentenced to life without parole, it would have made little difference for a literal lifetime’s worth of his sentence. If his wait is not extraordinary, we have to ask ourselves what the difference here actually is. It would be cheaper, and no less effective to imprison these folks for life, and dispense with the process that such a harsh punishment requires.

Posted by: Stephen Daugherty at December 13, 2005 12:33 PM
Comment #101955

Abortion is a death penalty.
A zygote could become a person and greatly help humanity.
A convicted racist murderous piece of trash says he’s reformed and NOW wants to help others.
Who should live and who should die?
I’ll take the innocent, the left can keep the guilty.

Posted by: kctim at December 13, 2005 12:37 PM
Comment #101960
Lay commits his crimes against millions of Americans and the against the very foundation of our economic system

I just get tired of reading Ken Lay as the poster boy for Enron. Andy Fastow was the primary perpetrator and Jeff Skilling was the CEO in cahoots. Lay came in when Skilling bailed and was caught holding the bag.

Posted by: Schwamp at December 13, 2005 12:39 PM
Comment #101961
Williams also said he killed Owens “because he was white and he was killing all white people.”

Good thing Williams killed when he did. Words like that today will get you convicted of a “hate crime” and you won’t make it out of the court room alive. It just isn’t “politically correct” to commit a…

Oh, wait.

There’s no such thing as a “hate crime” against a white person that isn’t gay.

I’m sorry.

Forget what I said above.

Posted by: Jim T at December 13, 2005 12:41 PM
Comment #101962

Hi kctim,

“A zygote could become a person and greatly help humanity.”

A zygote could, and did, become Tookie.

Do you believe that every sperm is sacred? Do you agree that anytime a fertile woman is in the vicinity of someone who can impregnate her she must avail herself?…..After all she’s got the chance to create a person who could be a great help to humanity.

Going by your logic birth control should not be used ever.


Posted by: LouisXIV at December 13, 2005 12:43 PM
Comment #101972

The only tragedy of this execution is that it took so long (> 25 years) to send Tookie straight to hell where he belonged.

Posted by: redoregon at December 13, 2005 12:57 PM
Comment #101992

It is amazing to me how the bleeding hearts stand by a murderer like Williams but seem to have forgotten the people whos lives he took and the families that will never see their loved ones again.

Posted by: amanda at December 13, 2005 1:25 PM
Comment #101994

At 12:01 AM California time a murderous thug was given his just dues. This came 25 years to late.
The only reason that the death penalty cost more than life in prison is because the Liberial Lawyers keep trying to save the lives of these worthless pieces of human waste. I’m not against appeals for those given the death penalty. I’m just against stringing it out over 25 years. Once through the appeals system and then good by asshole.
When someone committs murder, they are violating the right of their victim to live. This means that they forefit their right to live.
I find it interesting that the only time the Liberials worry about the sanctity of human life is when murdering thugs like Williams are fixing to be executed.

Posted by: Ron Brown at December 13, 2005 1:30 PM
Comment #101995

Regardless of what Williams and his supporters claim his life is now, he was found guilty of four murders and was sentenced to death. He, and anyone else who faces the same sentence must pay for what they did. Will the same sympathies be extended to Scott Pederson when he faces his sentence? Will everyone feel sorry for him because he has changed?

Posted by: amanda at December 13, 2005 1:30 PM
Comment #101997

Well said Ron!

Posted by: amanda at December 13, 2005 1:31 PM
Comment #102000

To those who want to call a living being a zygote, and want to argue when live begins here is a safe approach.
When they measure an adults brain waves and find nothing and therefore there will be no heart beat, the person is called dead.
If a living being while in the womb has a heart beat and there are brain waves then there is life.
Now isn’t that simple.
Now on abortion babies that have been delivered as soon as 5 months have lived outside the womb.
Killing babies cannot be justified period.

Posted by: tomh at December 13, 2005 1:34 PM
Comment #102001

Hi Ron,

“I find it interesting that the only time the Liberials worry about the sanctity of human life is when murdering thugs like Williams are fixing to be executed.”

That’s quite untrue.

You’re right that Tookie was a bad fellow. Why do you feel the need to lie about liberals?


Posted by: LouisXIV at December 13, 2005 1:36 PM
Comment #102002

Tookie got the penalty that fit the crime. Why complicate the issue with what ifs, could ifs, should ofs, maybe, etc.

Posted by: tomh at December 13, 2005 1:37 PM
Comment #102008

Abortion is a death penalty.
A zygote could become a person and greatly help humanity.
A convicted racist murderous piece of trash says he’s reformed and NOW wants to help others.
Who should live and who should die?
I’ll take the innocent, the left can keep the guilty.

Posted by: kctim at December 13, 2005 12:37 PM

I’ with you on that.

Here’s an idea I just thought of (yeah that’s what yaall smell burning). If the left is so worried about these murderous thugs that claim to be reformed, we can start a program that can prove how reformed they are. Everyone that opposes the death penalty should take one of the reformed thugs into thier homes for 5 years. If at the end of that time the thug hasn’t killed the family or anyone else then he gets a pardon. BUT if he kills ANYONE during that 5 years, not only does the thug get executed post haste, but the ones that took him in get executed for allowing him to committ murder again.

Posted by: Ron Brown at December 13, 2005 1:43 PM
Comment #102010

I thought I asked a straight forward question and still no one has answered…

Unless this is considered an answer-

“Tell you what, Dawn. Every morning you go to the waste treament plant and hold a funeral for those spots of “almost”. While you’re at it, collect all the used condoms and make masterbation illegal.”

Posted by: dawn at December 13, 2005 1:46 PM
Comment #102011

What is the purpose of justice? An eye for an eye? In elementary school we get tired of the excuse, “well he hit me.” IMO, justice removes those who make us unsafe to practice the golden rule.

There are too many people out there who froth at the mouth when the opportunity to execute bad guys arises. If an undesirable becomes someone who serves a purpose in society, isn’t that a net gain for society?

Posted by: Loren at December 13, 2005 1:47 PM
Comment #102016

Louis,
I’m not lieing abot the left. Everytime the subjects of murdering babies or the sick comes up yhe left is ALL for it. Everytime the subject of executing murderers comes up the left is ALL against it.
Just go back and read the comments on this post. Then go over to Right To Choose: Men Need Not Apply on this side of the blog and read the comments there. If you do that objectively you’ll see what I’m talking about.

Posted by: Ron Brown at December 13, 2005 1:54 PM
Comment #102020

Regarding the recent event of the death of Stanley Willaims. Yes,he may have been converted to a Christain. That is good at least he is in Heaven but the crimes he committed was real. He still has to pay for his actions yes he is forgiven by God- Almighty but his actions still linguires on. Many could not see this. I feel bad but the law is law. I believe a person can convert into another lifestyle which is for the good of mankind but you still reap what you sow, and that is that.

Posted by: Miss A at December 13, 2005 2:05 PM
Comment #102023

Louis

Going to the extremes so as not to answer the question.
Innocent lifeform or guilty, racist, murdering lifeform, who deserves a chance?

Posted by: kctim at December 13, 2005 2:08 PM
Comment #102026

“If an undesirable becomes someone who serves a purpose in society, isn’t that a net gain for society?”

No. There is nothing these people could possibly do that would excuse the crimes they have committed.

Posted by: kctim at December 13, 2005 2:13 PM
Comment #102028

Ron,

A zygote is not a baby. Abortion is not killing babies. It’s ending a potential, not a life.

Schiavo wasn’t sick, she was brain dead (the autopsy proved that beyond all doubt, even that prick Frist had to agree)

Those are the differences.

Posted by: Dave at December 13, 2005 2:17 PM
Comment #102029


Kctim,
Yes, I agree there i nothing to excuse what you do we are accountable for our actions . I dont excuse what Stanley Williams has done but those lives will not come back. I am for the death penalty when it is properly carried out the problem is it takes too long and at times to do justice,25 years is a long time and who wouldnt want to live on if those many years were granted thsu far.

Posted by: miss A at December 13, 2005 2:20 PM
Comment #102036
There is nothing these people could possibly do that would excuse the crimes they have committed.

Who said anything about excusing? I’m talking about the purpose of justice. At some point we cease to try insuring a safe society and try to become God.

At least God is forgiving. Apparently many of you lack that quality.

Posted by: Loren at December 13, 2005 2:38 PM
Comment #102043

I agree miss A.
The sooner the better, for society.

Loren
“Who said anything about excusing?”

Allowing him to continue on with his life is excusing his actions.

“I’m talking about the purpose of justice”

To make society safer for all and maintain order.

“At some point we cease to try insuring a safe society and try to become God”

It has nothing to do with playing God. It is about keeping the innocent safe.

“At least God is forgiving. Apparently many of you lack that quality”

I’m willing to take responsibility for my support of the death penalty when/if I face God and accept what happens.
Are you willing to take responsibility for the actions of convicted murders who continue their crusade?

Posted by: kctim at December 13, 2005 2:55 PM
Comment #102049

Every time a jury convicts someone, a criminal actions are no longer excused. Vigilantes on the outside will always debate the penalty, but they don’t administer the justice.

The innocent became safe when a criminal is locked up. Murdering the criminal doesn’t make the innocent any safer.

I don’t have to take responsibility for criminals removed from society. No one said anything about setting them free. You need to feed your revenge lust, apparently.

Posted by: Loren at December 13, 2005 3:03 PM
Comment #102056

Hi Ron,

“I find it interesting that the only time the Liberials worry about the sanctity of human life is when murdering thugs like Williams are fixing to be executed.”

That is a lie Ron. You’re saying that Physicians who are liberals don’t care about the sanctity of life in general.

You’re saying that all liberals are concerned about Tookie more than ANY OTHER HUMAN BEING which is a lie.

Is lying the best you’ve got here Ron?

Posted by: LouisXIV at December 13, 2005 3:14 PM
Comment #102058

Hi kctim,

“Innocent lifeform or guilty, racist, murdering lifeform, who deserves a chance?”

I don’t consider a zygote to be a person. Women have the right to decide the fate of the zygotes within them as far as I’m concerned.

As to Tookie: He deserves to be punished to the full extent of the law.


Posted by: LouisXIV at December 13, 2005 3:16 PM
Comment #102067

“You need to feed your revenge lust, apparently”

Revenge has nothing to do with it.
Killing someone such as this ass means that he has no chance of escape and no chance of inflicting terror and death onto the innocent, ever again.
And if the family of the victims get any justice from his death, its a bonus.

Your right though, YOU dont have to take responsibility for criminals removed from society.
It will be somebody elses fault or responsibility if that criminal escapes and continues his murderous ways.
Its always somebody elses fault or responsibility isnt it.

Posted by: kctim at December 13, 2005 3:27 PM
Comment #102069

tookie williams was supposedly this great anti-gang activist who wrote childrens books. do you know how many he sold? one of his books he sold five copies, another he sold 300. thats it. wow, huge author, big impact.

Posted by: dogselur at December 13, 2005 3:28 PM
Comment #102081

LouisXIV
You know how to tell if someone is loosing an arguement?
They start calling the others in it names and liers.
If that’s the best you have I’ve got no more to say to you.
I will say this touugh. I talk to a lot of Liberials in the course of a week. I use the experiecnes I have talking with them and what I read to draw my conclusions.

Posted by: Ron Brown at December 13, 2005 3:57 PM
Comment #102086

Hi Ron,

“They start calling the others in it names and liers.”

I pointed out where you lied. I pointed it out accurately.

You said “≠find it interesting that the only time the Liberials worry about the sanctity of human life is when murdering thugs like Williams are fixing to be executed.⼯p>

That is a lie Ron.

A lie like that isn’t discussion….it’s just a lie.

I’m not calling you names, I’m just stating the obvious.

Posted by: LouisXIV at December 13, 2005 4:06 PM
Comment #102087

“Comparing Tookie Williams to Delay and the Enron case is shockingly wrong and immoral.”

“Comparing murderers to financial criminals IMO shows who is more obsessed with $$. You do realize that money can be rebuilt, a human life cannot right?”

“Tookie Williams is a convicted murderer, while Ken Lay has yet to be convicted (or perhaps even charged) of crimes relating to Enron. If he is charged and convicted, I hope he gets the book thrown at him. But its simply not right to assume his guilt and then discuss him in the same light as a convicted murderer.”

I see very little difference between street gansters who are convicted murderers and the white collar crime of Lay and Skilling and their gang at Enron.
These men caused well over twenty thousand people to lose their entire retirement savings. Many of those who were affected are in their 70’s and 80’s and have had to return to work in order to support themselves. You don’t think that has and will continue to cause those people to die?
Indeed, there have been several people who chose suicide as a way out of what Enron did to them. For all any of us know, some people would actually prefer the quick death of a gangsters bullet, rather than to have to suffer for years, being forced to work long after their health is gone, until they finally die.

As to their guilt, Lay and Skilling and at least 15 directors at Enron are as guilty as hell, period.
Here is why:
None of these crooks were novices when it came to business. These were men who had served as boards of directors for both profit and non-profit organizations in the past, and who had served as CEO’s in several companies, as bank executives, and as capital management leaders. That’s why all of them were making upwards of $300,000 a year — for their supposed “expertise”.
That means all would know how to read a financial report and yet we’re supposed to believe they didn’t know what questions to ask?
Bullshit.
They claim to have failed to see the collapse coming off in the distance?
More Bullshit.
It was their responsiblity to know what was going on in that company — because they were responsible for making sure that every legal requirement would be met and that any information given to stockholders, the public, and the government was accurate.
Furthermore, it was their duty to determine, modify, and approve a business plan — which means these crooks were also responsible with giving input, framing the discussion within the company, and in implementing all of the board’s decisions.
All of the above are serious moral obligations in any business — and they failed completely.
And let us be perfectly clear here — Enron didn’t fail because it wasn’t a viable business. It didn’t collapse because it was failing to turn a profit. The only reason it failed was because of DECEPTIONS made by Lay, Skilling and the other members of Enron’s board.
Either they knew what was happening with the secret partnerships, the cooking of the books and with conflicts of interest, or they were inept and didn’t understand what role they were supposed to be playing within the company.
Any way we choose to look at what happened at Enron, these men are criminals who are culpable for their many failures — and for any suffering and/or deaths which they have already caused, or will cause, as a result.

Posted by: Adrienne at December 13, 2005 4:07 PM
Comment #102090

Hi Ron,

My mother is a liberal. You lied about my mother’s views on the sanctity of life.

I don’t think I’m a liberal although you’d probably call me one.

You’re lying about a lot of people here. I can’t understand why you need to do that. Do you value honest discussion at all?


Posted by: LouisXIV at December 13, 2005 4:10 PM
Comment #102093

Eric Simonson -

“Iraq is better off without Saddam, and we are better off without Tookie Williams.”

Wow, you are truly a product of good old, down home Conservative Christianism…

I wonder how Christ feels about those who claim to follow him. Personally, if it were me, I’d be pissed as hell at all the hypocrits that were supposedly “acting in (my) name”….

Dude, please don’t breed if you haven’t already… The world could honestly do without your kind. We might actually be able to get on a good track without your beliefs being passed on…

Posted by: MJ Shaw at December 13, 2005 4:17 PM
Comment #102098

“Yes, perhaps he did change a lot in prison, the fact remains however that he did not change enough to admit his own guilt.” — Just another faceless face in a crowd of zealot conservatives…

Perhaps he had nothing to admit to? It wouldn’t be the first time the wrong person has been executed for a crime.

By gods I love the Conservative Christians of this nation…

They won’t permit abortion, but they permit the premeditated taking of a life, with government approval. Hey, what if Tookie’s mom had thought to abort him, but wasn’t allowed at the time? Would that then make the Christian Anti-Abortionists responsible for the existence of Tookie, or anyone like him?

And then there is the Christian hate of evil deeds and doers; such as Tookie “the murderer.”

Hmmmmmm. What is war if not sanctioned murder? What about the crusades? What about “witches” who were burned at a stake or drowned after being thrown into a body of water while bound?

Oh yes, yes, yes, forgive me. When you have God’s authority to speak, you can do anything you want and call it righteous…

You people make me laugh, and you make me angry. The contradictory lives you lead, the hypocritical behavior you exhibit, are all going to be your eventual damnation.

Don’t believe me? Didn’t really expect you to. But keep this in mind…

That little creeping feeling that you experience regularly; that nagging, persistent feeling of fear that pervades every false action you commit - it is your God watching you. And your God knows who you are, what you have done, your lies and your false faith… Beware of the God you speak so freely for - you will eventually find that your actions will not have been appreciated…

Posted by: MJ Shaw at December 13, 2005 4:32 PM
Comment #102102

MJ~

Would you question innocence if the founder of the KKK was up for execution?

Just wondering.

Posted by: Traci at December 13, 2005 4:44 PM
Comment #102105

I only ask that because he willingly acknoweledges the fact that he founded the Crips.
That alone puts a lot of blood on his hands.

Not to say he alone is responsible for gang activity…that would be a silly notion. But, do not underestimate the mastermind behind the founders of the two huge gange elements (Blood/Crips)! They used young children and brainwashed them into believing that was their only hope!
Same with the KKK…would there still have been racially motivated crimes w/out them? Sure! But everything works better when it becomes organized!!!

Posted by: Traci at December 13, 2005 4:56 PM
Comment #102109

kctm,

You have so little faith in the structural integrity of our prison system. And we have parole boards who release prisoners everyday who have met an established criteria.

BTW, justice is for society as a whole, not the families of victims. They may sound harsh, but we have civil courts for harms against individuals.

Posted by: Loren at December 13, 2005 5:10 PM
Comment #102112

“You have so little faith in the structural integrity of our prison system”

Thats probably because I’ve worked in our prison system.

“And we have parole boards who release prisoners everyday who have met an established criteria”

Yeah, I know. Why do you think I support the death penalty. I’ve seen numerous rapists and murderers walk free.
But dont worry, they are now the next victims responsibility, not yours.

Posted by: kctim at December 13, 2005 5:15 PM
Comment #102115

Some of you just assume that God expects us to live and let live, but I think you guys would be suprised to find out what the Bible says about government’s role in punishment:

Romans 13:1-5 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
NIV at IBS International Bible Society NIV at Zondervan Zondervan

Romans 13
Submission to the Authorities
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience.


In other words, do what’s right and you don’t have to worry about the death penalty. Do what’s wrong, and you reap what you sow. God is the ultimate judge, but that doesn’t mean you’re not accountable to the rest of his people.

Posted by: Mike at December 13, 2005 5:17 PM
Comment #102116

kctim~

Sadly, sometimes that is the only way some people give a shit is when it directly affects them in some way or another!!

Been a while kid….how have ya been?

Posted by: Traci at December 13, 2005 5:19 PM
Comment #102125

kctim said: “Abortion is a death penalty.
A zygote could become a person and greatly help humanity.”

By that logic, all who venture voluntarily into war, are killers two fold, since in killing soldiers and civilians as part of war, they are also killing the chances those adults had of having more children. Thus, Bush, by your logic is a baby killer as well, preventing by his own confession, 30,000 Iraqis from propagating. Now if you want to outlaw war except in self-defense along with abortion, you might have a consistent argument, at least.

Posted by: David R. Remer at December 13, 2005 5:34 PM
Comment #102127

It is a moot point to discuss the value of life from the perspective of left, right politics.

The left (in general) are pro-choice. The right (in general) sees this as unacceptable.

The right (in general) support an unjustified war that has killed over 30,000 Iraqis and 2,349 coalition troops, the left (in general) sees this as unacceptable.

The left (in general) is for allowing a brain dead person die. The right (in general) see this as unacceptable.

The right (in general) supports the death penalty, the left (in general) sees this as unacceptable.

As you can see both sides are for death in one way or another. That is why I’ve never understood the pro-life tag, the right is not pro-life on all life, just the unborn and the those that suffer debilitating conditions. If the left is pro-choice, then shouldn’t the right be anti-choice?

Posted by: JayJay Snowman at December 13, 2005 5:37 PM
Comment #102131

“Now if you want to outlaw war except in self-defense along with abortion, you might have a consistent argument, at least”

Deal David, I will vote to outlaw war to save lives.
Now, how many pro abortion people will vote to save the lives of innocent babies?

Traci
Been well, thank you. Real busy lately and just now starting to get some free time to come back.
Drop me an email sometime.

Posted by: kctim at December 13, 2005 5:44 PM
Comment #102150

Semantics, JayJay, semantics.

If the left is pro-choice, then shouldn’t the right be anti-choice?

No. The right would be “pro-life” and the left would be “anti-life”.

Semantics, JayJay, semantics.

The left AND the right are both “pro-life” and “anti-life”. It’s all a matter of timing. Kill a baby or a grown man or woman. All a matter of timing. All a matter of semantics.

Also, I’d like to congratulate you on how you stated…

unjustified war that has killed over 30,000 Iraqis>.

So if it were a “justified” war…you’d be all for killing 30,000 Iraqis?

How about if we left Saddam in charge and HE killed the 30,000 Iraqis? Then we wouldn’t have so much angst over the whole affair, right?

Semantics, JayJay, semantics.

On side is “pro” and the other side is “anti”. Unless the “anti” side gets the “pro” label first!

Semantics, JayJay, semantics.

Posted by: Jim T at December 13, 2005 6:27 PM
Comment #102159

To those who say we should forgive and let go.
I (and others) can forgive Tookie for what he did.
He still must pay the price for his wrong deeds. If you disagree with that then the next time you get a traffic ticket tell the judge that you have changed and he should forgive you.

Posted by: tomh at December 13, 2005 7:06 PM
Comment #102163

LouisXIV
You have called almost everyone on this blog a liar. Step back and look in the mirror. You lied when you said that a zygote is not a living being. Everybody on here can say you lied about something. Get off it and make some sense with whatever you’ve got to say. But don’t call somebody a liar for disagreeing with you.

Posted by: tomh at December 13, 2005 7:12 PM
Comment #102172

kctim~

Do not know your e-mail addy.!!
Now that you’re back for the time being though…have you ever entertained the notion of becoming an editor here? Just a thought, I know those would be some hot topics I would enjoy responding to!!

Posted by: Traci at December 13, 2005 7:48 PM
Comment #102174

kctim
Right after I retired from the Air Force I went to work in the Georgia Prison System for a couple of years.
Like you I watched rapist and murderers walk out of prison on parole. Then I would look up and here they are again. And for the same thing.
One guy that was in for murder went out on parole about a mounth after I started there. He was back in 6 mounths for another murder.
The thing is you work with these guys and you know that they haven’t changed any unless it for the worse. But they took the right programs and the parole board is fooled into believing that they’re rehabilitated. So they get paroled. Then committ the same crimes all over again.
The hell of it is some of these guys have been in prison 2 or 3 times for the same crimes and still get paroled.
It’s enough to make anyone jaded.
Just how many time can someone be rehabilitated?
How many victims do these assholes have to have before the finally get a date with the death chamber?

Posted by: Ron Brown at December 13, 2005 8:02 PM
Comment #102182

Tomh,
You and every American has the right to request from a Judge and the Court a “Prayer of Judgement” for your actions over a traffic ticket. However, once convited the path that you must legally travel is different.

Tookie Williams had is opportunity and our Justice System did their job. Right, Wrong, or Indifferent we must live with this fact. However, for the conservatives to use his death as a way to oppress the liberals in their quest for a better world is wrong regardless of their motives. Justice is never fast nor should it travel the low road of life which places revenge over the ability to allow the room for compasion over one’s life.

However, if the right is so worried about upholding the Law than why do they not ask their leaders to enforce the laws on the books that allows conditions in our society to exist that create the need for a consumer to turh Rapitalistic by Nature?

Mike,
Your quote of Romans 13 would be good only if a person believes that their leaders of authority are corrct in their administration of The Law. Because by your line of reason and logic, than Castor and Saddam still should be in charge. For did not “God” put them in charge of their Nation? So who are we to even question the righteousness of these leaders or wage war in order to remove them?

No, while living to do what is right should be the standard taught by society, even our current leadership fall far to short of that goal. Thus, if one excepts this written as fact than explain to me why it is ok for our President to lie about the proof that he had to go to war? Does this mean that a person should follow this Authority of God when they know that the so called leader is not following the Laws of The Divine? Maybe some deeper thought is needed to find the true meaning of this passage.

Posted by: Henry Schlatman at December 13, 2005 8:27 PM
Comment #102194

I wonder if all you righetous assholes even care about the people he killed or their families, I wonder if SEAn Penn cared about beating his wife what about her feelings.. Also does a Zugoyt even have feelings, You stupid liberals,, man killed Four people,Almost a whole family do you weep for them….. What if someone shot one of your family members.. Would SEAN PENN give a shit!!!!!!!

Posted by: bosspdz at December 13, 2005 9:00 PM
Comment #102201

Dawn:

What is your position on the thousands of zygotes thrown away during invetro-fertilization? Don’t they have rights too?

Posted by: Aldous at December 13, 2005 9:30 PM
Comment #102222

Hi Tomh,

“You have called almost everyone on this blog a liar.”

I have not. I request that you confine yourself to the truth.

“You lied when you said that a zygote is not a living being.”

I didn’t say that. I said that a zygote is not a person. Once again I request that you confine yourself to the truth here.

“Everybody on here can say you lied about something.”

If you have any examples of me lying please present them or retract that accusation.

“But don’t call somebody a liar for disagreeing with you.”

I have done no such thing. Please retract that vicious untruth about me!

Posted by: LouisXIV at December 13, 2005 10:59 PM
Comment #102245

Like Ron Brown a few posts ago I have worked in corrections and met a large number of murderers, rapists, and inveterate thieves up close and personal. For my distilled wisdom on the subject google search: WHY THE INNOCENT PLEAD GUILTY AND THE GUILTY GO FREE.

Now that I have gotten the commercial message out of the way, I have known thousands of recidivists. Be very wary when someone is telling you about a new miracle rehabilitation program with a low recidivism rate, especially if it only refers to a specific type of crime, like rape or arson. A lot of times a person can be convicted of something else in another category, so while they are sitting in prison it looks like they are being good. Or maybe they simply are dead or too ill to do any more crime.

Just because someone hasn’t come back to prison doesn’t mean that they should be counted as reformed. They are merely out of action, for unknown reasons.

I do happen to believe that faith-based programs work the best. I have seen a great many success stories—guys that you knew in your heart would not be back. The other inmates know it too. No matter what one’s circumstances in life, once they beat the internal, self-destructive enemy, few outside forces can intimidate them.

I suspect Tookie may have genuinely mellowed out to some degree. But most believers accept that they still have to pay the full price for their crimes in this world. Salvation is about something else altogether, and I hope Tookie made the cut. . .

Posted by: Michael L. Cook at December 14, 2005 12:46 AM
Comment #102256

Sad Scenes from the sight of Stan Williams’ execution haunt the air as we begin another day without him. Stan denied the charges against him to the bitter end. He admitted that he had done many things, just not those. The dying man’s last words were that he was innocent. It is strange how one person, good or evil, big or small, rich or poor, can impact the world.

If there is anyone out there who feels that he does not matter, think about a man like Stan Williams. If anyone tries to make you feel unloved because of things in your past, remember the millions who loved this man. If can can be loved, anyone can and does deserve to be loved.

People even love Derek Watkins. I do.


Posted by: gwenbo at December 14, 2005 1:27 AM
Comment #102283

Adrienne:

I see very little difference between street gansters who are convicted murderers and the white collar crime of Lay and Skilling and their gang at Enron…. As to their guilt, Lay and Skilling and at least 15 directors at Enron are as guilty as hell, period.

You might notice, upon rereading my earlier post, that I did not defend Ken Lay. I did accurately point out that he has not been convicted or even charged with any crime. (I’ll wait while you huff indignantly about how the Bush junta is protecting their ‘Kennyboy’, all the while ignoring the numerous CEO types like Bernie Ebbers or Dennis Kozlowski etc)

Perhaps you want to be the judge, jury and executioner for those in whom you see guilt. Me…I’ll wait for the charges and the trial to happen first. See, that’s one of the tenets that makes America great—the concept of innocent until proven guilty.

Thanks for being so clear that you don’t hold to this concept. It gives a clearer picture to your thought process.

Posted by: joebagodonuts at December 14, 2005 7:51 AM
Comment #102349

Aldous,

“What is your position on the thousands of zygotes thrown away during invetro-fertilization? Don’t they have rights too?”

Was I talking about zygotes having rights? No.

Are you talking about zygotes that have parents?
I suppose the parents can discard of them - or have them discarded the way they prefer. They should also have the option of donating them to science.

Does a woman who goes in for an abortion have the option to have funeral services performed?

Posted by: dawn at December 14, 2005 12:02 PM
Comment #102355

I could have told you that Arnold was gonna kill Tookie a long time ago. He isnt gonna piss off his base and let a black man to be rehabilatated. What message would that send to all the other death-row inmates in the country. No matter what you’ve done since being locked you can’t be rehabilatated. Oh and for those of you that say that he never admitted guilt. Did you ever think that he is inocent.

Posted by: Jason at December 14, 2005 12:24 PM
Comment #102372

“He isnt gonna piss off his base and let a black man to be rehabilatated”

When all else fails, bring out the race card.

Posted by: kctim at December 14, 2005 12:59 PM
Comment #102384

Jason:

Tookie’s guilt or innocence has been judged by a jury of his peers. He has had numerous appeals that have been addressed by the highest legal minds in the State of California (the California Supreme Court). He has had the benefit of much publicity, many powerful supporters, and the attention of the Governor.

In every single instance, those judging the facts of the case have found him to be guilty of murder. The only issue open at this point has been whether the death penalty should be employed. If it is to ever be employed, Tookie Williams fits the bill. If it is never to be employed, then Tookie has no bearing on it.

I’ll leave it to those who have all the facts to decide on his guilt or innocence. And so they did.

Posted by: joebagodonuts at December 14, 2005 1:23 PM
Comment #102408

Oh and for those of you that say that he never admitted guilt. Did you ever think that he is inocent.

Posted by: Jason at December 14, 2005 12:24 PM

A jury didn’t think he was innocent. Why should I?
There hasn’t been ANY new evedence in 25 years that points the even the remotest possibility of his innocence. If there was I would’ve been amoung the first to be calling for a new trial.

Posted by: Ron Brown at December 14, 2005 2:11 PM
Comment #102431

If you believe in revenge………..he should be executed

If you believe in rehabilitation…..it’s too late,and it really doesn’t matter.

If you believe in atonement….he should have been kept alive as an example to others of his class and group.

If you truly believe in Jesus……he should be allowed to live.Turn the other cheek,love your enemies,all that.

If your idea of Christianity is only the old Testament…….he should be executed.

Very simple actually.

Posted by: Terry......... at December 14, 2005 3:36 PM
Comment #102437

If you beleive in justice……,he should be executed

Posted by: Ron Brown at December 14, 2005 3:50 PM
Comment #102440

Ah,but what is justice?
And who are you or I to say?
Too late for the victim.
Not too late for his family.But for them,it’s vengeance masquerading as justice.Vengeance is not justice.
Not too late for others he might save.
Me,I don’t care,but I don’t profess to be a Christian.

Posted by: Terry......... at December 14, 2005 4:10 PM
Comment #102454

“Too late for the victim”
“Not too late for others he might save”

Not too late for future victims either.
Err on the side that says he may “save” another or err on the side that says he will murder again?
I’ll take the side that protects the innocent.
Our country is better off now that the bastard is gone.

Posted by: kctim at December 14, 2005 4:57 PM
Comment #102486

I’m pretty sure he was never getting out of prison.
So I guess you mean he won’t kill any innocent people in prison?

Posted by: Terry......... at December 14, 2005 6:39 PM
Comment #102487

How could he ‘save’ someone else? And from what?
His books didn’t sell but about 150 copies. So he really got his ‘message’ out. Really best sellers aren’t they?
It’s sad that some bastard on death row can do all the right things, and convence bleeding hearts that they’re rehabilitated.
The fact is, if they’re really are rehabilitated they would realize that what they did was wrong and they deserve the penalty they were given.
Another fact is no state will even try to rehabilitate death row inmates. These assholes have been judged not fit to live by a court and no state will waste the money trying to rehabilitate a comdemned person.
I got a speeding ticket the other day over in Ware County, 63 in a 55.
Lets see, I’m going to take a driving course. Appoligize to the good people of Ware County. Write a book on the dangers of speeding. Tell my story in High Schools all over South Georgia. Ride with a Ware County deputy for a week. And promise not to ever do it again.
Gee look it here. I’m rehabilitated. The judge needs to let me off. After all I’m no longer a speeder.

Posted by: Ron Brown at December 14, 2005 6:45 PM
Comment #102506

Ron,
Should we impose a law so that we can see that you are no longer a “Speeder?” Or should the next time we assume that you will speed be enough to prove to the court that you should never drive again? Might killing you save a life in the future if your speeding would result in the death of an Innocent One? Where should Society draw that line? These questions or better yet answers should drive the debate over capital punishment not the actions of a single individual.

Posted by: Henry Schlatman at December 14, 2005 7:42 PM
Comment #102519

Henry
There are already laws to see if I’m still a speeder. They’re called speed laws. But I’m not one anymore. I’ve been rehabilitated. I’m doing all the right things.
You don’t have to kill me. In fact I’m ready to enforce our traffic laws. After all, I’m doing all the right things. I’m rehabilitated. Why you can trust me with a Viper SRT10.
I don’t understand why the Judge would fine me for this. After all, I’m doing all the right things. Why won’t he just let me go? I’m rehabilitated.

Posted by: Ron Brown at December 14, 2005 8:19 PM
Comment #102562

“MJ~

Would you question innocence if the founder of the KKK was up for execution?

Just wondering.” — Traci


I have no opinion on Tookie’s guilt or innocence. I was not there, I did not attend his trial, and I most certainly would not claim to know everything there is to know in order to stand judgement over him…

I believe my point above was the curiosity of contradiction found in conservatism. Save the babes, but put them to death later when they commit a crime against humanity, or, when they’re old enough to bear arms for a group of war-makers sitting comfortably in their plush leather chairs thousands of miles away from danger…

Contradiction is so curious to me. I can’t help but contradict myself in how I react to it… Anger and laughter are not usually the most cozy bedfellows…

Posted by: MJ Shaw at December 14, 2005 11:55 PM
Comment #102588

Ron,
Sorry. but your unwillingness to accept that others as innocent or grant mercy to those less enlightened leaves the court no other choice. Thus surrender your Viper and board the ship that is setting sail for Nowhere.

Posted by: Henry Schlatman at December 15, 2005 2:35 AM
Comment #102713

Wish I had a Viper to surrender Henry.
I keep hinting to my wife that I want one for Christmas or my Birthday. So far she hasn’t come through.

Posted by: Ron Brown at December 15, 2005 9:39 AM
Comment #102725

The point I was trying to make, Henry is that anyone can do and say the right things to make someone think that they’ve been rehabilitated. Most everyone in prison will tell you that they’ve changed. And none of them really have. That’s why they keep going back.
I can go into court and tell the Judge everything I posted here on what I was going to do and tell him I’ve been rehabilitated. That doesn’t mean I have been. Even if it is true and I am truly rehabilitated, I then would be willing to except and pay the fine the Judge gives me.
Williams would’ve felt the same if he was truly rehabilitated. The fact that he kept trying to wiggle out of it tell me he wasn’t.

Posted by: Ron Brown at December 15, 2005 9:48 AM
Comment #102745

MJ~

I’m going to go ahead and point out the obvious here….

Is it not also a contradiction to want to terminate babies and not for the death penalty?

Just wondering..

The way I see it…at least we ABSOLUTELY know a baby is innocent. Or is that up for debate?

Posted by: Traci at December 15, 2005 10:20 AM
Comment #102763

Ron,
If you have the same problem that I do a Viper might not be a good thing. While I like the car, owning one would probably get me becoming known well by the local judge.

On Tookie, he may of been innocent of shoting those people. Without hard proof (caught on tape)and not interested in reading every piece of paper, I’m forced to take his word. However, given the long appeal process and having seen no evidence that raises to the legal point of an overturn the question for society is did he get a fair trail. And to that I say yes.

Not that I defend the actions of the DA for I do believe that the reason for asking the court to invoke the Death Penalty was due to his status as the co-founder of the creps(sp)not the actual taking of life. Nonetheless, capital punishment is and should never be used by the State to seek revenge. The Law is suppose to be above that and clemasy(sp) is a personal question of a Governor to consider so I have to grant him/her their opinion.

You ask “The fact that he kept trying to wiggle out of it tell me he wasn’t” Are you talking about the automatic appeal services designed to protect both the Individual and the State? The fact that he asked the Governor, like most men facing the death, for cleamsy? Or is it the fact that on his death bed, Tookie still claimed his innocene about killing those four people?

Like OJ, did Tookie have cardinal knowledge of who did? Most likely. Was he guilty of just as bad conduct when he was in society? Yes, and for that I believe that he knew he was condemed to pay for. Yet, he did show that he realized that the only why to change the “Establishment” was to work inside it and not rebel against it as he lead others to do in the 70’s & 80’s. Both the Left and the Right can learn that lesson don’t you think?

Posted by: Henry Schlatman at December 15, 2005 11:05 AM
Comment #102772

Traci,

Jesus said “I have given you the choice between life and death, choose life”

You’re against abortion; still think the death penalty is the right choice?

Posted by: Dave at December 15, 2005 11:48 AM
Comment #102858

Dave~

As a matter of fact…I’m not against abortion!

BUT….if I had to choose, I would choose the life of an innocent unborn child before the likes of an animal like Tookie!

Posted by: Traci at December 15, 2005 3:43 PM
Comment #102859


Just a side note…I’m also not real religious either!
I guess I’m not a stereotipical conservative republican eh?

Posted by: Traci at December 15, 2005 3:45 PM
Comment #102887

Traci,

The issues are not related. You are either for the states right to impose death on a person or not. If you want the death penalty, there in no valid argument against abortion. Anything else is hypocracy. If you are against the death penalty, a valid debate is “at what point do cells become a person?”

Posted by: Dave at December 15, 2005 5:03 PM
Comment #102898

The issues are not related. You are either for the states right to impose death on a person or not. If you want the death penalty, there in no valid argument against abortion. Anything else is hypocracy. If you are against the death penalty, a valid debate is “at what point do cells become a person?”

Posted by: Dave at December 15, 2005 05:03 PM

Oh yes there is.
The death penalty is given to punish (and punishment is ALL it is) someone that has committed a crime like murder that has caused them to forefit THEIR right to live.
Abortion as yaall liberials like to call is the murder of innocent babies that haven’t committed ANY crime is just that, MURDER!

Posted by: Ron Brown at December 15, 2005 5:37 PM
Comment #102904

Good response Ron
Also a baby cannot defend itself, whether its is 30 days or 1 year old. I think we should do a post natal termination on those who want to kill babies.

Posted by: tomh at December 15, 2005 6:01 PM
Comment #102917

Hi tomh,

” I think we should do a post natal termination on those who want to kill babies.”

Do you advocate killing Drs who perform abortions? Do you plan to act on this?

I’m just curious….I won’t tell the FBI.


Posted by: LouisXIV at December 15, 2005 7:08 PM
Comment #102919

LouisXIV
Thats ok Louis. The FBI alreadys knows what I think. And no I’m not going to act upon it. And yes the DR’s should be prosecuted for murder and well as PP.

Posted by: tomh at December 15, 2005 7:13 PM
Comment #102922

tomh

I think we should do a post natal termination on those who want to kill babies.

Sense murdering unborn babies isn’t illegal, I think at this point it wouldn’t be advisible. But if this counrty ever wakes up to the slaughter it’s permitting and out laws this type of murder. Then abort ALL murder doctors and everyone else that works in this evil feild.

Posted by: Ron Brown at December 15, 2005 7:32 PM
Comment #102923

Hi tomh,

Unless the laws are changed Drs can’t be prosecuted for murder as abortion isn’t murder in this country.

Posted by: LouisXIV at December 15, 2005 7:33 PM
Comment #103093

Ron,

The death penalty is a form of punishment, not the only available punishment. It is state sactioned murder of a postnatal person.

If you approve of the death penalty, you are giving the state the right to take away life. Why do you deny a wamn the right to cotrol over her own body and, instead, give it to the state? Abortion is terminating a potential. It is not a baby, it is not a person, it is not killing.

So, when do cells become a person? Without that answer, you have no validity to argue from.

Posted by: Dave at December 16, 2005 8:51 AM
Comment #103104

Dave~

First YOU relate the two issues together by assuming I’m against abortion and then throwing in a nice bible quote to boot and then turn around and say the 2 are not related!! Get it straight…

Second…scroll up and see who my response was to and what it was about…

MJ stated that he thought Republicans were hypocrits because they are against abortion and for the death penalty….I simply stated that it is just as hypocritical to be against the death penalty but for abortion.

You will argue that it is not a person or whatever…I will be willing to agree with you in the case of zygotes and whatnot..but the reality is abortions take place during the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd trimesters and if you have ever seen or carried one of these in your belly you would know that it is a human life. Don’t even get me started on partial birth abortions.

I could never personally have an abortion, but I am in deed for them…ONLY because I do not feel society as a whole protects small children from shi**y parents(the parents have to many rights above their childs).After saying all of that I still do not convince myself that it is not murder so that I can sleep better at night(once again…I am NOT speaking of petry dish cells).

Posted by: Traci at December 16, 2005 10:02 AM
Comment #103106

Dave,
As of date, a child falls under the protection of the law the moment they take their first breath of air outside the womb. Because it is at that point in time they bercome a citizen. And I’m not sure anyone can get around that law.

Posted by: Henry Schlatman at December 16, 2005 10:17 AM
Comment #103112

Traci,

I was posting to Ron.

BTW; the two issues are not related. I was identifying the hypocricy of the arguments being used by the pro/anti-life group.

Also; To repeat prior posts: I am against late term abortions of viable fetuses (no heroic measures), except for life/health of the mother.

Henry,

That sounds like state law; or is it Federal prescedent?

Posted by: Dave at December 16, 2005 10:25 AM
Comment #103137

Dave~

I’m sorry…when I see my name at the top of a post, I assume it is to me(Your 11:48 and 5:03 post)!

As for them NOT being related…I guess we will just have to agree to disagree!

Posted by: Traci at December 16, 2005 11:13 AM
Comment #103149

Ooops, my bad. I already forgot about yesterday :-) not a good sign.

We will have to disagree that the death penalty for incarcerated criminals is/is not the same as abortion.

But, it seems to me the disagreement is whether abortion of extrautero nonviable embryos, etc… is the same as killing a person. I don’t see it that way.

Posted by: Dave at December 16, 2005 11:43 AM
Comment #103303

Dave
The difference is, a murderer has forefited his right to live when he/she committed the murder(s).
An unborn baby has not committed ANY crimes. Killing it is taking an innocent life. Killing innocent people is murder.
A women a complete control over her body. Until she becomes pregant. Then she loses control over that part because she has a human being inside her. For her to kill that human being is murder.
If the women doesn’t want to get pregant then she needs to take measures to insure she doesn’t get pregant. And the man needs to take measures to make sure he doesn’t get her pregant.

Posted by: Ron Brown at December 16, 2005 7:13 PM
Comment #103454

Hi Ron,

Do you consider killing a zygote (fertilized egg cell) to be murder?

Posted by: LouisXIV at December 17, 2005 9:41 AM
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