An Illegal Alien No More

A person is constituted as being an “illegal alien” if they enter this country illegally. However, as things are now, the United States’ enforcement on this issue is NEXT TO NONE. How can an illegal alien really be illegal if the only thing constituting them as such is the law and that law is not followed? So an illegal alien is truly, using the choice phrase of PCers, an undocumented citizen.

Let's review the current stats (from Philippine News Online):

The three bills facing Congress are the “Comprehensive Enforcement and Immigration Reform Act of 2005” proposed by Senators John Cornyn (R- Texas) and Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.), the “Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act of 2005” by Senators Edward Kennedy (D-Mass.) and John McCain (R-Ariz.), and the “Save America Comprehensive Immigration Reform Act" proposed by Congresswoman Sheila Jackson (D- Texas).

The bill viewed as toughest on immigration is the Cornyn-Kyl bill. Senator Cornyn is Chairman of the Immigration, Border Security and Citizenship subcommittee and Senator Kyl is Chairman of the Terrorism, Technology and Homeland Security subcommittee.

Their bill, for the most part, concentrates on increasing resources to patrol the U.S.-Mexico border, enforce current immigration laws and cut down on human trafficking in all its forms, like smuggling, document fraud, drug trafficking and gang violence. It’s centerpiece however is a new “temporary guest worker program” in which visa holders may participate in only up to three times – a total of six years employment in the US. Meanwhile, family members may visit visa holders in the U.S. for only 30 days per year. The bill, however, provides no pathway to legal residency for those in the guest worker program nor does it address a way to change status for undocumented immigrants already in the country.

And now there's a new bill on the table (from Miami Herald):

Florida Sen. Mel Martinez, the first Cuban-American elected to the U.S. Senate, said Friday he was teaming up with the only black member of the chamber to introduce an immigration enforcement bill.

Martinez, a Republican, said he expected to announce the details of the bill later this month with Democratic Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois.

There are also more stalwart bills on the table, such as legislation proposed by Rep. J.D. Hayworth, R-Ariz and Rep. James Sensenbrenner, R-Wis.

In the end, any major immigration reform legislature that is actually passed will include some type of 'guest worker' program allowing illegal aliens to become citizens.

There is no immigration policy. Instead of listing hundreds of examples proving this, here's an easy one. My local paper reported that last month illegal aliens were discovered living in abandoned houses on the edge of my town. The police reported this to immigration authorities; however, it proved futile as they did not get "much response from Immigration and Naturalization Service."

Even more frightening should be the emergency federal decree temporarily suspending immigration enforcement in New Orleans. The United States continues to become a region on the world's surface, versus a sovereign nation.

We need to understand this: Illegal aliens are NOT illegal as we have NO immigration law. If our immigration laws are not enforced, the United States will offer a textbook example on how a nation should NOT deal with immigration (I think we already offer one).

Fix the immigration system, or we will soon be a United States no more.

Posted by Mike Tate at October 18, 2005 12:04 AM
Comments
Comment #86242

How dare you question Karl Rove’s Master Plan??? Don’t you know Latinos are the biggest ethnic group in the US? Don’t you want the GOP to maintain power above all else? These immigrants are the future Republicans of tomorrow!!! With a little effort, the NRC can train them as well as the Evangelicals. They will gaurantee Jeb Bush the White House!!!

Why do you hate America, Mike? Why do you side with Democrats in this? Do you support Al Queda? I just cannot stand unpatriotic Americans who weaken the War on Terror!!!

Posted by: Aldous at October 18, 2005 1:30 AM
Comment #86254

:=)

Posted by: Mike T. at October 18, 2005 7:59 AM
Comment #86260


Side with the Democrats? Which Democrats?
There are more R’s mentioned above than D’s.
Mike is not supporting Rove’s master plan on immigration?
Should he support Kerry’s plan which was more lenient than Bush?
Or McCain(R-D-P?) and Kennedy(D) who have a bill that does more for illegals than most of us want.
If Blues had their way these people would be Democrats of today, without citizenship.

Posted by: bugcrazy at October 18, 2005 8:52 AM
Comment #86308

If you are an illegal alien or, an undocumented citizen or, citizenship challenged, you should not have any rights nor should you be here.

Illegal by any other name is still illegal.

Round them up and ship them out. It’s not a political issue, it’s a legal one.

Posted by: steve smith at October 18, 2005 9:20 AM
Comment #86316

How true Steve!

Illegal by any other name is still illegal.

Posted by: Karen at October 18, 2005 9:24 AM
Comment #86335

Personally I’m for building a huge mote on the other side of the boarder about 1 mile wide and running the full leanght of the boarder. In the middle of this mote we put a 200’ high fence. this fence is then charged with 200,000 volts of electricy. then we just sit back and watch the would be illegals fry.

Posted by: Ron Brown at October 18, 2005 9:51 AM
Comment #86396

For some reason this has become a partisan issue in the public’s eye. Whenever I talk to my republican friends they’re always blaming the democrats for doing nothing. The democrats blame the administration. As an independent I know this is nothing new, but still it is surprising.

My parents and I immigrated here, and did so legally at the expense of much pain and money to jump through all the silly hoops that immigration has in it for people that try to do things legally. It angers me that so many attain illegally what my family and I worked and sacrificed so hard to attain legally.

You’d figure post 9/11 we’d be more careful and yet nothing is getting done.

Posted by: chantico at October 18, 2005 10:20 AM
Comment #86400

Ron Brown,

Also, in the moat should be a good supply of the 10 deadliest snakes in the world.

Posted by: steve smith at October 18, 2005 10:30 AM
Comment #86407

Illegal alien status is also achieved by coming here legally, and overstaying the legal limitation on the visit. This I would guess, constitutes a huge portion of of illegal aliens if not a majority.

Posted by: David R. Remer at October 18, 2005 10:58 AM
Comment #86409

What pisses me off about Bush and others in the government is their gall and hypocrisy to pretend to care about national security, when Al Qaeda is crossing the borders.
Bush has the unmitigated gall and audacity to call the Minute Men vigilantes, who were merely calling border patrol when they saw illegals crossing the borders.
Illegals are crossing the borders by the hundreds (maybe thousands) daily.

The borders could be secured, but those that illegally employ illegal aliens wouldn’t like that. Thus, we are being slowly taken over. I know where hundreds of illegal aliens are employed right this second, have been for years, and so do the the authorities, but the authorities won’t lift a finger to do anyting about it. Government, quite simply, is not enforcing the law. They simply look the other way, because the government is a bunch of corporate ass-kissers. Government wants that very cheap labor. But, that cheap labor is not really that cheap. It costs plenty. It burdens our heatlh-care systems, education systems, law-enforcement systems, insurance, spreads disease, and increases crime. Many studies have show that it is costing many billions per year. So who is profiting from the cheap labor. The corporations and those with vast wealth and power.

And how greedy is that to lure people here for sub-minimum wage jobs ? Many foolishly risk their lives to get here. The Arizona desert is littered with the bones of illegals that tried to cross the desert. I wouldn’t view it as being so greedy if they at least paid those illegal aliens minimum wage. But, they don’t. They pay them as little as possible (far below minimum wage). And they also don’t withhold any taxes in most cases.

It’s all about greed. China now has minimum wage laws, but many greedy corporations still exploit the people, and ignore the law. The workers are afraid to complain.

The federal government isn’t just pro-business. It is pro-corpocrisy. This is just another of many indicators of a federal government that is greedy, irresponsible, and unaccountable.

Posted by: d.a.n at October 18, 2005 11:06 AM
Comment #86410

David,

Good points. However,isn’t saying “overstaying the legal limitation on the visit” the same as breaking the law to stay here and, if by no other reason than intent, breaking the law to get here.

Is it not fair to use the old adage of “Don’t overstay your welcome”. This would accrue at 13 million or so unwelcome folks.

Posted by: steve smith at October 18, 2005 11:10 AM
Comment #86411
Personally I’m for building a huge mote on the other side of the boarder about 1 mile wide and running the full leanght of the boarder. In the middle of this mote we put a 200’ high fence. this fence is then charged with 200,000 volts of electricy. then we just sit back and watch the would be illegals fry.

Ron, please, don’t forget to make sure the mote will resist up to Cat-5 hurricanes.

Otherwise it’ll be useless (except for no-bid contractors who will rush to build such borders security beast) as many illegal aliens came legaly thru airports gates but stay illegaly since.

From EuroLand,

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at October 18, 2005 11:18 AM
Comment #86421

How about every person who comes to the US has a micro chip implanted so that we can monitor their activities. In the case of those who overstay the legal time period an alarm is triggered so that we can go round them up.

Every illegal alien that we can find who is already here will be fitted with the same device.

Posted by: steve smith at October 18, 2005 11:47 AM
Comment #86422

uuuhh…Are you guys serious? Illegal immigration is a problem, but what you guys are saying sounds more like prejudice, unless you were just being facecious. I don’t mind foreigners sneaking in when they are trying to escape persecution of some kind, but how can you tell the difference? 9/11 has left us with a major problem. How do we weed out the evil without further persecuting the innocent? And what the heck does it have to do with blaming either the dem.s or rep.s? If we were not the free country we are, they would not want to be here, and the bad guys would have no need to hate us. Blame the problem on the founding fathers for making this the best country in the world!

Posted by: D. B. at October 18, 2005 11:55 AM
Comment #86424

I like what Mike Savage proposed, a barrel of oil a day from Mexico for each illegal here.

Posted by: JayTea at October 18, 2005 11:57 AM
Comment #86425

Spot-on comments, Mike T. and d.a.n. But what can we, as citizens do about it? The Minutemen have shown us one powerful way, but in doing so incurred the dunce-like wrath of a President who could care less about national security. Governors Napolitano (AZ) and Richardson (NM) are also devising ways to defy, rightly so, a national immigration system that does not work. So the question remains…what can we do about it? The alleged war on terror means nothing if we spend more resources securing Syria’s borders than we spend securing and enforcing our own.

Posted by: Mister Magoo at October 18, 2005 12:00 PM
Comment #86428

Pretending you can isolate the country is unrealistic and short sighted. Let the people ‘market’ work freely just as the business markets do. You think securing borders will end crime? - ridiculous.

You know it benefits us all when these people come in and hustle concrete for 12 hours a day for wages no U.S. born citizen would touch.

Are any of you complaining that these illegals pay social security and will never see a penny in benefits? Hell no you aren’t.

Your typical snob opinions - you want to have your cake and eat it too.

Posted by: Ms Schwamp at October 18, 2005 12:15 PM
Comment #86430

D.B.,

uuuhh…Are you guys serious? Illegal immigration is a problem, but what you guys are saying sounds more like prejudice, unless you were just being facecious.

I was facecious, obvioulsy.
This whole idea of fence all along a country borders is ridiculous. Even North Korean don’t have one. Not that they have any illegal alien immigration issue, though.

Hey, maybe it’s the solution: make your country the worst place in the World and, hop, magic, no more illegal immigration!
Wait. No, doesn’t work even. Now you need a fence to retain your own people within your country borders.

Sorry, no easy solution it seems.

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at October 18, 2005 12:17 PM
Comment #86431

“You know it benefits us all when these people come in and hustle concrete for 12 hours a day for wages no U.S. born citizen would touch.”

The US citizen who refuses hustling concrete or anything similar in favor of being another number on the unemployed - live for free list is
lazy and shameless.

“Are any of you complaining that these illegals pay social security and will never see a penny in benefits? Hell no you aren’t.”

And you know that all these people are paying SS how? Anyone paying them is breaking the law as well.

Posted by: steve smith at October 18, 2005 12:24 PM
Comment #86432

D. B.
If we were not the free country we are, they would not want to be here, and the bad guys would have no need to hate us. Blame the problem on the founding fathers for making this the best country in the world!

Your right D. B., We ARE the best country in the world, and our freedom IS why people from all over the world want to come here. But they need to do this legally, NOT ILEGALLY. The problem is more complex and not as easy to solve as the electric fence that I perposed earlier. That by the way was tounge in cheek.
As to the solution I really don’t know what would work best. But one thing is for sure, THE CURRENT SYSTEM ISN”T WORKING. It’s not the fault of any one party or person. It’s the fault of politicians that don’t care what happens as long as they can stay in office long enough to be able to rip off the tax payers even more with an excessively large pention check.
I’m not inclined to blame our founding fathers though.

Posted by: Ron Brown at October 18, 2005 12:26 PM
Comment #86435

Steve,
Hers’s a little something on how much these illegals are contributing to Uncle Sam.

Posted by: Ms Schwamp at October 18, 2005 12:33 PM
Comment #86445

Steve Smith, I agree, entirely.

Posted by: David R. Remer at October 18, 2005 1:27 PM
Comment #86446

Ms Schwamp, nobody here stated that securing the borders will end crime once and for all. What people here are saying is that leaving the borders essentially unsecured greatly increases the likelihood of giving some very bad people (i.e., terrorists) a free ticket into the United States. Do you disagree with this viewpoint? Or to you relegate it to the back burner, in favor of the billions that illegals are pouring into Social Security?

Posted by: Mister Magoo at October 18, 2005 1:33 PM
Comment #86461

So many solutions…and yet so many problems remain.

You can’t legislate an effective immigration law when the court system says that even though someone is an illegal…they are entitled to the same things as natural citizens…an education, a driver’s license and free medical treatment (including delivering babies that are “instant” citizens).

So what is there to do?

Hmmmmm…that’s a “toughie”.

How about tearing down all the fences and pass a law that anyone can come into the US and work…as long as they work for a minimum wage of 50 cents a day? Seeing that you can’t make a living here…you move back there. Presto! No more illegals!

Or…..

How about pulling out all our troops from the Middle East…attacking all of Central America…and making them the 51st state! Presto! They’re not illegals anymore. They’re Americans!

Posted by: Jim T at October 18, 2005 2:44 PM
Comment #86463

One way to resolve the problem is to simply enforce the law, and stop ignoring those that illegally employ illegal trespassers.
With the influx and numbers greatly reduced, it would be much easier to catch the remaining few crossing the borders illegally.
Still, it’s not unrealistic at all to secure the borders. If we stationed many of the military bases along the borders, with stations every 20 miles, and patrols and electronics monitoring the areas between, then the borders could be sufficiently protected. That would only take about 200 stations along the southern border, and about 300 stations along the norther border. After all, isn’t that what national defense is supposed to be all about….defending the nation ? There’s no reason 25% of all troops currently scattered in bases all over the nation can’t be stationed along the borders.
And the coast gaurd could be used to patrol the coasts. It’s not impossible, and it wouldn’t be that costly. Not with the aid of electronic thermal, radar, satellite, patrols, etc.

And, anyone who thinks that cheap labor isn’t costing someone, then they don’t know what they’re talking about. Numerous studies, despite the governments disdain, show that the cheap labor ain’t really that cheap, because it costs billions due to an additional burden on health-care systems, higher cost of education, law-enforcement, insurance, and the spread of disease, and higher crime rates.

And perhaps the media should be doing something ? Where are they ? Why aren’t they out there showing how the government ignores illegal aliens ?

They are ignoring it, and have been for many decades. It appears that someone in the media has decreed that this is not news worthy ?

Posted by: d.a.n at October 18, 2005 3:05 PM
Comment #86464

As someone who has travelled the world and who reads his news from several different outlets in order to get the common truth, i have to say that to think Mexicans come here seeking freedom is absurd. They have freedom in Mexico. They are not like the Cubans who get shot for saying “down with Castro”. People come here because we are the richest country. Period. We are the richest country because we value money above all things. Notice that our middle class lives on credit, trying to attain what the upper class has. However, both political parties make serious mistakes and any smart citizen should admit to that. For example, Democrats waste a ton of tax payer money by lacking organization when it comes to effective social programs. At the same time, Republicans cut off all social programs as if there was no need for them and give that money back to the upper class in tax breaks. Notice that our country continues to divide more and more. I ask, isn’t smarter to step out of our shells and analyze each situation on its own, instead of automatically agreeing with what some politician from any party is saying? Since our borders should be guarded by our troops and not our citizens; shouldn’t we be demanding that from the government? Being that illegal immigration costs lives, resources, money and our safety; shouldn’t we be coming together to demand a program that registers all those who are coming in? The answer can’t be isolating our selves from the world because without all sorts of people coming in to work here, we would not be the riches country? What do you say?

Posted by: Steve at October 18, 2005 3:05 PM
Comment #86467

Cheap Labor Ain’t that Cheap…
________________________________
www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=17606
www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
________________________________
www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/36/10146
___________________
www.ninehundred.com/CalNews/wwwboard/messages/219.html

* Illegal alien households are estimated to use $2,700 a year more in services than they pay in taxes, creating a total fiscal burden of nearly $10.4 billion on the federal budget in 2002.

* Among the largest federal costs: Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).

* If illegal aliens were legalized and began to pay taxes and use services like legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual fiscal deficit at the federal level would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total federal deficit of $29 billion.

* With nearly two-third of illegals lacking a high school diploma, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments — not their legal status or their unwillingness to work.

* Amnesty increases costs because illegals would still be largely unskilled, and thus their tax payments would continue to be very modest, but once legalized they would be able to access many more government services.

* The fact that legal immigrants with little schooling are a fiscal drain on federal coffers does not mean that legal immigrants overall are a drain. Many legal immigrants are highly skilled.

* Because many of the costs are due to their U.S.-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth, barring illegals themselves from federal programs will not significantly reduce costs.

* Although they create a net drain on the federal government, the average illegal household pays more than $4,200 a year in federal taxes, for a total of nearly $16 billion.

* However, they impose annual costs of more than $26.3 billion, or about $6,950 per illegal household.

* About 43 percent, or $7 billion, of the federal taxes illegals pay go to Social Security and Medicare.

* Employers do not see the costs associated with less-educated immigrant workers because the costs are spread out among all taxpayers.
________________________________
www.newswithviews.com/Wooldridge/frostyA.htm
www.laborresearch.org/story2.php/78


Sure, some pay taxes, but who do you think really benefits the most from employing illegal aliens ? You ? Nope. It’s the greedy employers that lure them here for sub-minimum wage jobs. All they care about is profits. If they want cheap labor, they should move their companies to those countries where the cheap labor is located, and quit breaking the law here.

Posted by: d.a.n at October 18, 2005 3:17 PM
Comment #86470

Lock down the borders and kick all of the illegal scum out!

Can anyone out there come up with a good reason why our elected officials have not militarized the borders of the country? Can anyone think of a more important issue facing us at the moment? This nonsense of criminals coming to our beloved country is getting old! They violate the law of the land, and as much as those of the SocialCrat persuasion would have us to believe that there are no such things as borders, “only lines on a map” this is a country of law, and if you violate, break, ignore, or evade the law you are a criminal.

These criminals are bankrupting the country at an alarming rate, just look at the Left coast of California (Soon to be Mexifornia), and the Gateway cities (cities that encourage vermin by not arresting them, and assisting them in skimming our system dry) continue to allow these vermin to propagate and even help them to get into the “social safety net” system and protect them form the proper officials.
When an illegal vermin goes to the local redistribution center (read welfare center) for free medical care, food, free money (well not free, we pay for it as legal citizens) There are signs that clearly say “we will not report your immigration status to anyone” the fact that the redistribution center will not call the proper authorities to remove said vermin is outrageous!
Police are prohibited from asking about immigration status in the gateway cities (Houston TX, this is an official policy! Call for yourself, you will be nonplused!)

We have a long standing tradition of legal immigration, which I am not opposed to, these immigrants came in, legally, went through the process, and contributed to our society, and they did not ask for special designations. They worked their tails off to make a life for themselves and their children, to these I welcome as fellow Americans. I applaud your effort, and your determination, you are an inspiration to the rest of us, and what the rest of the world should aspire to.

The current vermin come in, and if they do work, they do so at a sub human wage, which is a good indication of lack of mental stability, or just a mark of desperation, which is not a good reason to subject oneself to abysmal conditions, bordering on slavery, and a good reason to give them the boot back to whence they came.
However this is not all about the cheep labor and poor helpless people as the Democrats would have you believe (And the scum that employ the vermin are to blame as well, and should have their assets seized to compensate the taxpayer burden they help incur).
A large portion of these vermin are just that vermin. They are criminals, not only for violating the sanctity of our borders, but they are raping, murdering, and pillaging this great land at an alarming rate! Do you presume to be so naive that you really think that only those looking for a better life come across the border? Oh they are looking for a better life and an easy target, and here in America, a large portion of the populace has willingly laid down its arms!
These well meaning people are those who would think the police or government has the responsibility for their personal safety, not themselves, making them easy targets (Guns are evil only if you have no guns)
I am not a racist as the leftist would say (I know that one is coming) I am an American, and all Americans should band together and let a cry issue forth to our leaders that this must stop!
I am a former corrections officer, and I tell you this, the prisons are rampant with illegal criminals, the above mentioned rapist, murders and general miscreants, and these are just the ones that we know about! Not the other 7,000,000 that we have no idea where they are at.

We can stop this problem; it is called a 25’ fence with a 30’ foot center section equipped with a lethal electric fence 12’ tall with 6’ contact plates to either side (used in maximum custody prisons) and backed by another 25’ fence! Guard towers at regular intervals, and shoot all in the middle section not using a legal border crossing point! What is so hard about this?
Kind, NO, compassionate, NO, but when is enough, enough? When did it become the duty of the United States of America to keep the world’s populace? Why should we sacrifice our standard of living to these who care nothing for our laws, or our way of life? Should we not instead be concentrating on making our land better, that our prosperity will be around to be enjoyed by our children?

Zamurai21c

Posted by: Sean at October 18, 2005 3:32 PM
Comment #86473

Sean,

I’m against illegal aliens too, but calling them vermin and other names isn’t helping your goal.
I don’t hate them and do not want to see them unnecessarily harmed (unless they resist arrest) for wanting to come here for jobs. It’s understandable, since there are few jobs where they came from.

An electric fence or wall won’t work. History has already demonstrated that. All we need to do is place stations about every 10 or 20 miles apart. These stations could be populated with troops that are already enlisted. And electronics, helicopters, and night vision equipment could be used to monitor the boarders. Stations spaced only 10 miles apart on the land borders would only require about 900 stations. With 10 persons per station, that would only require a total of 9000 troops. And other stations can call for backup, if necessary, from bases within the U.S. These stations don’t have to be fancy (and shouldn’t be). And there are plenty of troops already stationed at bases all across the nation that could populate these stations.

But, the problem is that government really doesn’t care about securing the borders. They care more about cheap labor. They don’t care what it costs the average tax payer.

This is not a race issue. This is the right of a sovereign nation to secure its own borders, control access through its own borders, and provide security.

NOTE: Al Qaeda is crossing our borders.
Recently, some were apprehended crossing the U.S. / Mexico border.

Posted by: d.a.n at October 18, 2005 3:53 PM
Comment #86491

d.a.n
Sure, some pay taxes, but who do you think really benefits the most from employing illegal aliens ? You ? Nope. It’s the greedy employers that lure them here for sub-minimum wage jobs. All they care about is profits. If they want cheap labor, they should move their companies to those countries where the cheap labor is located, and quit breaking the law here.

One of my sisters lives in Northwest Arkansas. She worked for a while at Tyson Foods in the personell department. She told me that Tysons has billboards in Mexico tell the people that if they can get to the US that Tyson will hire them. About 3 or 4 years ago the INS brought charges against Tysons for hiring illegals in Tennessee. I haven’t heard anything about the outcome of the case, it’s most likely still tied up in court. However Tysons claims that they cann’t get American citizens to work in their plants. At the pay that my sister says they pay at the plants it’s no wonder.
I’m about of the opinion that companies like Tysons pay so little to keep US citizens from wanting to work for them.
Your right that enforcement of exixting laws will go a ways toward solving the problem. But I have another idea that might help solve the problem.
If a company is found to be knowingly hiring illegals, PULL THEY’RE BUSINESS LICENCES! I’ll bet that’ll put a damper on things.
BTW d.a.n., The electric fence thing was just me being facecious.

Posted by: Ron Brown at October 18, 2005 4:55 PM
Comment #86498

I have the solution! Let’s outsource all of the low paying jobs to China and India!! Since high tech jobs are going there anyway and people keep complaining about ilegal immigration then let’s do it! Oh yeah Americans don’t want to do these jobs either!

Posted by: J.C. at October 18, 2005 6:09 PM
Comment #86512

J.C.
Many of those U.S. companies are paying the illegal aliens far below minimum wage. Thus, the companies have revealed their true greed. Their excuse those companies use that claim they can’t get Americans to do those jobs is therefore suspect. What they really mean is they can’t find Americans to work for sub-minimum wage.

Posted by: d.a.n at October 18, 2005 7:04 PM
Comment #86515

Ron,

Yeah, I thought so (i.e. being facetious about the fence).

I was really referring to what Sean wrote:

We can stop this problem; it is called a 25 foot fence with a 30 foot center section equipped with a lethal electric fence 12 feet tall with 6 foot contact plates to either side (used in maximum securiyt prisons) and backed by another 25 foot fence! Guard towers at regular intervals, and shoot all in the middle section not using a legal border crossing point! What is so hard about this?

I’m not sure Sean was being facetious.

While I don’t want illegal aliens here, I also don’t want them beaten, killed, or mistreated.

Bush said he was going to do something about this, and then called the Minute Men vigilantes. That’s about as bad as his daddy who said “Read My Lips: No New Taxes” .
Should have know. It must run in the family.

Posted by: d.a.n at October 18, 2005 7:13 PM
Comment #86526

We need the Illegal Aliens now. We need them to work in the Automobile Industry. Considering the wage cuts GM just gave their Workers, the only blue-collars working in GM are the Working Poor.

Bring in the Aliens!!! Major Corporate Bush Supporters need them!!!

Posted by: Aldous at October 18, 2005 9:28 PM
Comment #86535

This has something to do with a person that was an alien. Not an illegal, but a legal one. This person is now a very loyal US Citizen.

I just want to take this moment to wish happy bithday to a VERY SPECIAL PERSON.
On 19 October 1950 @ 2108 hours in Sidney, Australia a baby girl was born to Charles and Kendra Hadden. She was the youngest and only girl of 6 kids. Her parents named her Gayle Dawn.
Her family came to the States in summer of 1963 when she was 12 years-old and moved onto the farm about 1/2 mile up the road from my family.
On 29 May 1969 Gayle officialy became Mrs Gayle Brown. She is a wounderful wife and a very loving mother to our children. And talk about her grandkids. Everyone of them hung the moon.
SO HAPPY BIRTHDAY SWEETHEART! I LOVE YOU VERY MUCH!


Posted by: Ron Brown at October 18, 2005 10:40 PM
Comment #86560
Her family came to the States in summer of 1963 when she was 12 years-old and moved onto the farm about 1/2 mile up the road from my family. On 29 May 1969 Gayle officialy became Mrs Gayle Brown. She is a wounderful wife and a very loving mother to our children.

You two married very young! she was 18, right?
Married since 36 years, congratulations.

Happy Birthday Mrs Gayle.

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at October 19, 2005 5:20 AM
Comment #86563

Ron,

I’m about of the opinion that companies like Tysons pay so little to keep US citizens from wanting to work for them.

Now, I’m suprised because I still remember you said this recently:

Tom S The mentality of most workers is….I will work hard if you pay me enough. VERY few realize that it works the other way around.

So, who’s fault is it now? Companies that don’t want to pay enough, lazy legal workers or illegals ones?

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at October 19, 2005 5:39 AM
Comment #86565

Though I’m a liberal, I believe in a policy of zero illegal immigration tolerance. Neo con want’s to block entry with all sorts of medieval devices but fails to address the cost of such a policy (though every liberal KNOWS how neo con will pay for ‘the wall’… he’ll borrow and pass the cost on to our children and their children and theirs). The Solution to illegal immigration is really simple and obvious. Don’t make jobs available to illegal immigrants. As someone else pointed out, who can blame latinos from wanting to come to America for a job? And who can blame them from trying again and again and again? Does anyone really think a wall will stop them? They’ll come in by sea and air if neccessary, but they will come. As long as someone is willing to look the other way regarding their immigration status and pay them better than what they could make back home, THEY WILL COME. Who among us, in their situation wouldn’t?

Therefore we must put the onus on the employers. I’m sure neo con would think this a good idea, and would likely decide a good policy would be to give tax breaks to all employers who don’t use illegals. I think I’d prefer the stick to the carrot here.

If a farmer employs illegals, we take away his farm. Hey that was simple enough. So what does the government do with a farm? Why, they sell it to another farmer who probably WON’T use illegals having seen what happened to the first farmer… heck, if he’s got enough money, we could even sell it back to the original farmer it was confiscated from. Use that money to mollify the nutcases that want to build a wall… build ‘em a wall.

If a restaurantuer uses illegals, we take his restaurant.

If a factory employs illegals, take the factory.

If a homeowner employs illegals, take the home.

If this policy sounds familiar, it’s because it’s the same policy we use to try to deter drug dealers. It isn’t very effective on drug dealers because they know they are breaking the law, their industry is extremely profitable, and such losses are built into their cost of doing business. Not so with your average everyday businessman who considers himself an upstanding citizen in all respects except his employment of illegals. To THAT businessman, the loss of a few cheap laborers is built into his cost of doing business. It would be far easier for any otherwise legitimate businessman to build the cost of more expensive labor into his cost of doing business than it would be to build in the cost of losing his business.

Naturally, neo con won’t go for this because, who do you suppose it is that is actually employing all those illegals? I don’t have facts and figures on this, but maybe, just maybe, THAT is the reason the neo cons in power have no real plan to eliminate illegal immigration.

Eliminate the jobs for illegal immigrants and you will eliminate illegal immigration. Hell, you will put such a crimp in unemployment, we’ll have to re-evaluate our legal immigration quotas to allow a greater number of legal immigrants. And when we do that, we can better regulate who comes in and why.

Posted by: Thom Houts at October 19, 2005 6:13 AM
Comment #86569
What people here are saying is that leaving the borders essentially unsecured greatly increases the likelihood of giving some very bad people (i.e., terrorists) a free ticket into the United States. Do you disagree with this viewpoint?

Yes, I disagree. The idea that the hypothetical fence at the borders will be erected with the good guys on the inside and the bad guys on the outside is pie in the sky thinking. There are other ways to deal with terrorism such as through intelligence.

The free market rules can be applied to people as well as goods. Let me explain: The reason illegals work for wages U.S. citizens wont is that U.S. citizens have no incentive. They can bust their butt and make a wage that can provide food, low level housing, and virtually no health care for their family; or they can do nothing and get medicaid healthcare, enough food to eat, and low level housing. This is the choice - many choose the path of least resistance. Illegals have the incentive - they work the jobs or starve.

The answer is to provide a decent working wage and healthcare for those who work. Provide some incentive.

Since the blues and the reds seem to be in sync on this issue, I’m sure the pols will follow.

When everyone agrees, they are usually all wrong. (e.g. WMD)

Posted by: Ms Schwamp at October 19, 2005 7:34 AM
Comment #86574

Now you guys want to do something about illegals… sheesh!

We’ve been saying the same thing for 400 years.

Posted by: Crazy Horse at October 19, 2005 8:46 AM
Comment #86575

Remove the incentive to come here. Aggressively prosecute employers who hire illegals. Refuse to use day labor that can’t be verified as naturalized or citizenry. Refuse services such as schools for the kids, drivers licenses for adults, social services such as health care. Deport those who are not registered via a visa or green card.

Wait! who will mow our lawns? Omigosh!

This isn’t going to change until we attack the problem front-end. The companies and employers who violate labor law and employ undocumented works have to be brought up on charges. Remove the incentive for people to come here. At the same time, vigorously negotiate our trade agreements in Latin America to drive countries to adopt minimum wage laws and collective bargaining rights. Only when people have an opportunity to better themselves where they are will they decide not to come to the U.S.

Fences, stricter penalties for the illegals will not do the job. Do anyone think threat of deportation or imprisonment will deter someone from coming in? These people risk their lives with the coyotes who smuggle them in. They aren’t afraid to take a risk. The only method of inhibiting illegal immigration is to give the illegals a reason to stay home. Usually, that equates to a full belly and a job.

Posted by: Dennis at October 19, 2005 8:54 AM
Comment #86583

Use our resources. Erect the fence. Watch the economy tank and inflation take off.

Soon, the people on the inside of the cage will be the bad guys. Exactly the opposite of your utopian dreams.

Posted by: Ms Schwamp at October 19, 2005 9:33 AM
Comment #86607

Ms Schwamp,

It’s not a cage if the legal inhabitants can come and go as they please.

A fence or wall won’t work either. Few if any are seriously considering a wall or fence, because that won’t work.

However, the borders could actually be secured fairly easily and inexpensively. Above, I explained exactly how that could be done without costing that much, because we’re already paying troops anyway and already have the necessary equipment. We’d merely be stationing 9000 troops (a very small percentage of all armed forces) at 900 stations along all land borders, instead of bases within the interior U.S. It’s merely just making better use of resources we already have.

And, are you saying we don’t have the sovereign right to secure our borders ? Are you saying illegal trespassers rights trump the rights of the people of a sovereign nation ?

What is Utopian is believing that the millions of illegal aliens are having a positive impact on the nation and perpetuating the myth that we can all live at the expense of everyone else.

Why do we have laws restricting illegal trespass ?

This country belongs to the citizens of the nation. It is not for the public use of the entire world. Just like your home and property belong to you, you would not like illegal trespassers coming uninvited into your home or property.

Not only is it illegal, it is wrong. We have immigration laws and admit thousands per year to legally immigrate to this country. Allowing others to do so illegally is a slap in the face to those that respect our laws, and our citizens that worked to admit them legally into this nation.

Also, it’s truly ridiculous to assume our economy would fold without illegal aliens, because illegal aliens are costing more than they benefit. That cheap labor ain’t really cheap at all. And for the increased crime and disease that also comes with it, tell your excuses to the victims of that crime and disease; crimes that should have never happened.

Posted by: d.a.n at October 19, 2005 11:01 AM
Comment #86609

Philippe Houdoin

Ron,

I’m about of the opinion that companies like Tysons pay so little to keep US citizens from wanting to work for them.
Now, I’m suprised because I still remember you said this recently:

Tom S The mentality of most workers is⦮I will work hard if you pay me enough. VERY few realize that it works the other way around.
So, who’s fault is it now? Companies that don’t want to pay enough, lazy legal workers or illegals ones?

Man, you must have alot of time on your hands to go back to find out what someone said a couple of months ago.

First I didn’t make that statement, TomS did. I was responding to it.
However sense you asked me the question I’ll answer it.
It’s true that a lot of workers want to get paid more than the job is worth. Or get paid what a person with say, 10 years experiance gets paid when they have no experiance at all. This is what TomS and I were discussing in the post you linked.
But there are some companies, like Tysons that don’t pay enough to make the adverage US citizen want to work for them. I have about come to believe that they, for whatever reasons, don’t want the adverage US citizen working for them.
Then you mentioned the illegals. If they weren’t come here and taking these very low paying jobs, maybe companies like Tysons would be force to raise their pay scale.
So whose fault is it?
It’s the American workers fault for wanting to much money.
It’s the fault of companies like Tysons for not wanting to pay enough money.
And it’s the fault of the illegeals for taking these jobs for very low wages.

Posted by: Ron Brown at October 19, 2005 11:09 AM
Comment #86617

“The idea that the hypothetical fence at the borders will be erected with the good guys on the inside and the bad guys on the outside is pie in the sky thinking. There are other ways to deal with terrorism such as through intelligence.”

Ms Schwamp, I appreciate your reply. And you’re right in pointing out that a physical fence or barrier of some kind would be too expensive and probably wouldn’t work — most people here would probably agree. I also agree that intelligence (if this country still has any) could and should be ramped up. But the more fundamental issue, which is one you still seem to be skirting, is that we have federal immigration laws on the books that are simply being ignored. Letting anyone and everyone into this country, whether they come illegally or not, seems to be your position. That’s a bad position. The cost of LEGAL taxpayer money to administer health care alone to illegals is costing us far more money than illegals are allegedly paying back in Social Security taxes. Throw in the added realities of increased crime, disease, education and infrastructure demands to take care of these illegals, and your Utopian dream of letting millions of illegals come here to live happily ever after at taxpayer expense is an economic recipe for disaster. I’m astounded that you can’t see that.

Erecting a physical fence is not the answer. In that you are right. But you are dead wrong in turning a blind eye to not supporting the enforcement of immigration laws we already have on the books, which is what most of us are advocatiing. No one here is against legal immigration. But no one here wants to keep footing the bill for the needs of millions of illegals that cross our borders every year. What part of “illegal” do you not understand?

Posted by: Mister Magoo at October 19, 2005 11:59 AM
Comment #86624

Ms Scwamp,

From the Washington Post:

“Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.”

Posted by: Mister Magoo at October 19, 2005 12:43 PM
Comment #86636

Mister Magoo,
I do understand legal vs illegal. I simply dont buy the net negative consequences of these illegals that everyone else does.

They are not here to relax. They are working poor. If our society is going to cherry pick stats to make it appear they are a net burden, where are the stats that show how legals working in min wage positions would not be a net burden?

The country needs working poor. It always has and always will. They are washing your dishes and happy to do it - and you want to spit on them.

Posted by: Ms Schwamp at October 19, 2005 2:00 PM
Comment #86642

NO GUEST WORKER PROGRAMS! NO! NO! NO!!!

What really yanks my chain is hearing the left and the right (both equally guilty) spout two-faced rhetoric about “securing our borders” and in the same breath talk about the “need” for a guest worker program.

We do NOT need a guest worker program. Corporations and business owners looking to fatten profit margins need a guest worker program.

But unless “Guest Workers” are :
1. willing to wear a damn tracking bracelet so we can find them 3 years later when it’s time for them to go home,
2. going give up the right to squat down and plop out an anchor baby,
3. willing to waive all rights to free E.R. care, social benefits, gov’t housing, etc,
4. going to pay full income taxes,
5. willing to submit to immediate revokation of “guest worker” status, and be summarily deported, when they commit a misdemeanor
6. bring with them a guarantee from the Mexican government that when they do commit felonies, we will be able to prosecute to the fullest extent of our laws, up to and including execution, and that our costs will be paid for by the Mexican Government.
7. willing to personally pay for, and submit to, as much of a background check as we can possibly muster (given the idiocy and corruption of the Mexican government) to ensure that we week out at least SOME of the scores of sexual offenders and child molesters coming in
8. able to prove that they are not, and never have been, affiliated with any terrorist organizations

Having said that… since NONE of those things will EVER happen….

NO GUEST WORKER PROGRAMS!!!! NEVER!!!

Posted by: missjoy at October 19, 2005 2:50 PM
Comment #86643

“I do understand legal vs illegal. I simply dont buy the net negative consequences of these illegals that everyone else does.”

How do you get any food into that bubble of yours, Ms Schwamp?

Posted by: Mister Magoo at October 19, 2005 2:51 PM
Comment #86644

I do live in a bubble of sorts. A bubble of wisdom. Being right can be lonely.

Thanks for asking.

Posted by: Ms Schwamp at October 19, 2005 3:03 PM
Comment #86645

Ms Schwamp,
You may believe anything you want, but Mister Magoo’s stats and facts are not merely cherry picked.

They are factual, and can be corroborated.

You are ignoring a staggering mountain of facts and the associated costs of illegal aliens:
(1) burden our schools;
(2) burden our health-care systems;
(3) burden our law enforcement systems;
(4) burden our entitlement systems;
(5) burden our prison systems;
(6) commit crimes that should have never occurred;
(7) burden on our insurance systems;
(8) spread diseases;
(9) 50% of illegals are paid off the books and pay no tax
(10) causes a loss of jobs and income due to greedy employers not willing to even pay minimum wage; it forces other employers that don’t hire illegals to lower their wages to be competitive;
(11) they drive about, uninsured, and can not pay for the damage they do;
(12) deportation costs;
(13) illegal voting in our elections;
(14) and, they disservice those that respect our laws and immigrate legally.
________________________________
If you want more evidence, see:
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscal.html
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=17606
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/36/10146
And to be fair…this one, which does a lousy job of rebutting the CIS article above:
http://www.ilw.com/articles/2004,0908-sharry.shtm
http://www.mstandard.com/
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/10/25/175322.shtml
http://www.eagleforum.org/psr/2003/feb03/psrfeb03.shtml
http://www.washingtontimes.com/metro/20040923-104542-8488r.htm
http://www.desertinvasion.us/data/invasion_numbers.html
________________________________
BTW, I don’t want to spit on illegal aliens.
I just don’t want them here illegally, for all the reasons stated above. Also, for you to say “The country needs working poor.” is offensive. So, who’s spitting on who ?

Posted by: d.a.n at October 19, 2005 3:05 PM
Comment #86646

Sorry, typo… I meant weed out (in the above post)

And another thing….
If I hear one more person say “they do jobs no american wants to do” or “we want to match up willing employers with willing guest workers” I think I’m going to lose it.

Just wait until we start seeing want ads like this:

“Seeking engineer with masters degree, starting salary $14,000/year, no benefits.”

Why, when we are already losing American jobs by the thousands to India and Mexico, so that big Corporate cheeses can keep their “getaway cottages” in the Hamptons and their company BMW and Hummer… why, WHY, would we pave the way for every employer out there to give away qualified American jobs to “guest workers” who will do it for a tiny percentage of a fair wage?

This card carrying red-blooded Republican has HAD it. I HATE to say it, it pains me more than I can say: but I don’t feel any better protected now than I did with Slick Willy in office.

I am putting my elected officials on notice… they can either side up with JD Hayworth (he’s got the right idea on illegal immigration from top to bottom, A to Z) or they’re not getting my vote… I don’t care WHAT letter they put after their name.

Posted by: missjoy at October 19, 2005 3:06 PM
Comment #86648

missjoy,
I agree. Those guest worker programs are just another way for greedy companies to drive down wages.
I’d rather those greedy companies pack up their greedy asses and move overseas.

Posted by: d.a.n at October 19, 2005 3:10 PM
Comment #86649

It’s a small thing, but this has been pickling me for 2 months now…

When I registered my daughter for school this year, the school mailed me a packet welcoming me to apply for free or subsidised lunches. It told me in warm fuzzy terms that there are two spanish speaking women employed full time at the school to help me navigate the system if I would like to do so but don’t speak english.

The packet then clearly outlined that citizenship is in no way a requirement for free lunches. It also stated that no social security number is required, and that if I don’t have a social security number, I should provide my state-issued welfare ID number, which would simplify the process.

I kept it. Every time I think about it, I get steamed.

Not only do we not enforce the border, our tax-dollar funded public officials are inviting these illegals to just HELP THEMSELVES TO MY WALLET, via federal, state, county, and local give-aways that I must pay for via taxes, or go to jail.

This country has devolved into a lunatic asylum.

Posted by: missjoy at October 19, 2005 3:21 PM
Comment #86651

missjoy,
I’m ashamed to say I used to be Republican too. No more. And, I don’t want to be a Democrat either. I’m sick and tired too of both main parties takin’ turns runnin’ the country into the ground.
You want to help put government on notice?
See this. We can wait a long time to do it the hard way, or we can try the smart way, and use our votes wisely to peacefully force government to reform…something few (if any) other solutions have.

Posted by: d.a.n at October 19, 2005 3:31 PM
Comment #86654

Seems to me like the easiest way to curb illegal immigration is to make legal immigration easier. When I got my green card it was a long and expensive process - in my area of work I needed it, but if I hadn’t I probably would have thought twice…

Posted by: Mark at October 19, 2005 3:38 PM
Comment #86657

I think we need to use the next presidential PRIMARY in ways we’ve never used it before. I think it’s highly overlooked. And I’m tired of our primary yeilding the most mushy-middle-of-the-road, least-offensive candidate, as has been the case since Reagan. I want a candidate to emerge from the republican primary that I can get behind and be proud of.

Bush smells more and more like a Dem to me these days… and I know that Dems don’t like him either. Dem’s need a candidate that makes them cheer, just as badly as Rep’s need one that makes us cheer. It’s what our founders wanted.

Still, I am not willing to give up my “R”. I still think a 2 party system is the way to go. I’m not willing to waste my vote on a 3rd party candidate yet, only to find that 3% went to my candidate, 48% to a Republican and 49% to a Democrat (or vice versa). I think that we can take back our own parties, whether you’re a Republican or a Democrat. I just don’t believe in a 3 party system, that’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it.

For me, personally, the “R’s” still represent more of my core beliefs than the “D’s” do -or at least they SAY they do. Talk is cheap and there’s been little BUT talk in the past 10-11 years. Anyone who’s been sitting on the hill with an “R” behind their name but not fighting for my issues… is on my sh*t list!

Posted by: missjoy at October 19, 2005 3:47 PM
Comment #86659

By the way. The real root of this problem is a corrupt government, controlled by a few that abuse vast wealth and power, that want cheap labor for their businesses, refuse to enforce the laws, refuse to secure the borders, and even have the unmitigated gall to call the “Minute Men” vigilantes (Bush did that).

Bush is behind it too, along with Walmart, factories, and business everywhere, that want cheap labor, know they won’t be prosecuted, and don’t give a damn what it costs the average tax payer.

And the greedy part about it is that these greedy employers are not all paying the illegal aliens the minimum wage, which discounts their lame excuse that Americans won’t do those jobs.
The truth is, most of these greedy employers want to pay as little as possible, which is most often way below minimum wage, and half the time, it’s under the table.

Posted by: d.a.n at October 19, 2005 3:50 PM
Comment #86661

missjoy,
Respectfully, (and I made this mistake too), both main parties are just takin’ turns gettin’ theirs, votin’ on pork-barrel, graft, and raises and perks for themselves. They don’t answer to us. They answer to those a few that abuse vast weatlh to get them elected. 90% of elections are won by the candidate that spends the most, and incumbents are difficult to unseat, because those that control them wnat the predictability of the puppet they’ve already bought and paid for.

So, please consider carefully whether the “R”s really represent your core values.

BTW, there’s really no big difference between the “R”s and “D”s, which is why our pressing probelms keep getting worse.

Posted by: d.a.n at October 19, 2005 3:58 PM
Comment #86666

Great post from the right. Wow… some actual common sense. Although the real solution is incentives for documentation by both immigrants and those that employ them, as well as appropriate punishments for not doing so.

I don’t buy into any of the “build a bigger wall” argument. What we need are procedures and policies in place to address the immigration issue in terms of the actual laws already on the books.

It seems there has to be some vast conspiracy for their to be so much wide-spread apathy and head-turning regarding what isn’t just ‘undocumented’, but ILLEGAL.

Posted by: Mojotek at October 19, 2005 4:12 PM
Comment #86669

d.a.n. for President!

Posted by: Mister Magoo at October 19, 2005 4:22 PM
Comment #86693

: )

Posted by: d.a.n at October 19, 2005 6:22 PM
Comment #86699

d.a.n. for President?

Well now, There goes the ball game.

Just kidding d.a.n.


Posted by: Ron Brown at October 19, 2005 6:38 PM
Comment #86729

I may be wrong, but I’d like to know why SINCE 9/11 “BOAT FLOATERS” Have Been Picked Up By the COAST GUARD, AND ALLOWED TO OBTAIN CITIZENSHIP IN THIS COUNTRY. WHEN THE LAW STATES THAT HAVE TO WALK ON “LAND”?

I live in South Florida it’s a daily thing here, so don’t even try to tell me it doesn’t happen.

Wonder why 9/11 happened, look at all the laws that are not inforced.

And why do we have to ‘SAVE THESE PEOPLE” from their CHOOSEN GOVERNMENT. LET THEM FIX THEIR OWN PROBLEMS,

Want to yap about wages, any good business man is gonna want to pay the cheapest hr. price, it we didn’t have all these SCABS from other countries here applying for these jobs, the AMERICAN worker could get paid a decent pay, and our Welfare and Foodstamp Program, which was designed for AMERICANS would not be over burdened.

Posted by: j. simo at October 19, 2005 11:15 PM
Comment #86749

Ron,

Man, you must have alot of time on your hands to go back to find out what someone said a couple of months ago.

A very quick googling of “cheap labor” on WatchBlog found it for me.

First I didn’t make that statement, TomS did. I was responding to it.

And that was your reply I’ve actually quoted.

But there are some companies, like Tysons that don’t pay enough to make the adverage US citizen want to work for them. I have about come to believe that they, for whatever reasons, don’t want the adverage US citizen working for them.

Oh, okay then, I missed that Tysons & like are actually paying below legal average wage. Sorry.
Make more sense to me now.

Then you mentioned the illegals. If they weren’t come here and taking these very low paying jobs, maybe companies like Tysons would be force to raise their pay scale. So whose fault is it? It’s the American workers fault for wanting to much money. It’s the fault of companies like Tysons for not wanting to pay enough money. And it’s the fault of the illegeals for taking these jobs for very low wages.

So, basically, it’s free/unregulated jobs market fault. Which I agree.
An easy solution seems to sue all companies breaking the law by paying full time workers below the legal average wage, no?

Posted by: Philippe Houdoin at October 20, 2005 4:20 AM
Comment #86815

Mike T.

I’m not sure that the phrase “undocumented citizens” has ever been used seriously by anyone. In any event, these folks are not given the privileges of citizenship, they are only afforded some of the protections that resident (legal) aliens get. Equal in the eyes of the law, and all that. American democratic principle, if you will. Don’t hyperventilate over it.

d.a.n.

Amazing how some observe that the Bush administration is pandering to business in this respect, but in all others, it’s the dirty liberals who are screwing up the country. Selective attention? And then you go on to call the government greedy, but suckering voters into supporting people like Bush and Delay is how greedy businesspeople take over the government and run it to their own ends. Government is just the representative of these greedy bastards. The Bush family is part and parcel of this cartel. Unfortunately, many swallow the B.S. that these guys are going to make everybody rich as Croessus by giving tax cuts. This is an oligarchy: gov’t of, by, and for the lobbyists, and I don’t mean labor lobbyists. If people paid attention during the first term, these guys would be out of office.

One question about your statistics. You show a selection of facts that have glaring omissions. For example, how does the average net cost to the government per individual undocumented alien compare to those, say, in the lower quintile of income who are here legally? Better, worse, or the same? And is the $2700 annually, for the duration of their stay, or just in the first year? And what is an “illegal alien household”? Does it have to have just one IA or a critical number, or do all of the household members have to be undocumented? I noticed the sources were all secondary, with axes to grind, so I didn’t bother looking there, but I do wonder about the primary sources. Did you find them? Did they answer the questions I posed? Looking for help here.

Posted by: Mental Wimp at October 20, 2005 2:22 PM
Comment #86936

Mental Wimp,

I’m going to look up the sources. Perhaps you could too, if you can find some to rebutt the statistics.

But, regardless of whether illegal aliens represent a net dollar gain or loss is really irrelevant to me.

They’re illegal trespassers, driving about with no insurance, bringing crime and disease with them, and they don’t belong here. This country is not for the public use of the rest of the world. It’s for citizens and those that respect our laws.

After all, you wouldn’t want someone coming into your home or property uninvited would you ?

Enough said on that. I’ve given numerous reasons, and you’ve given very few.
Do some research and get back to me, and then I’ll be happy to discuss it further.

Posted by: d.a.n at October 20, 2005 7:36 PM
Comment #86939

A few years ago I lived in Glendale Az. my neighbors four Americans and one Mexican were all arrested for selling drus LOTS of drugs the four Americans said the drugs were the Mexicans so the Americans weren’t charged ( mind you they would have never seen the light of day ) so they ‘deported’ the Mexican and TWO days later his girlfriend (one of the Americans) came over and asked to use my phone,,,seems the deported Mexican was in Douglas Az and needed a ride back into Glendale and his girlfriend was laughing about the way ‘they always deport the Mexicans and it takes 2 days to get back in’. There are loads of illegels around my hometown their are NO jobs around my hometown that Americans WONT do and most of those illegels are also selling drugs and making little welfare babies I know of six such babies in the past 15 months,,,another good site,,,”weneedafence.com”

Posted by: Ronda at October 20, 2005 8:12 PM
Comment #86943

Thanks for the site Rhonda.
I’m researching this, and plan to build a case of evidence and logic that will obliterate anyone who thinks we ought to tolerate illegal trespassers, and the low-life greedy employers that illegally employ them.

Posted by: d.a.n at October 20, 2005 8:27 PM
Comment #88246

Yes our country is a melting pot,but with terrist on the lose we need order.

I feel you just can’t cross over her and not have some respect for our way of life.

You might ask what the hell does this man mean?

This is what it is in a nut shell!

If you come over here in my land my home you will respect my home. Yes, What is my home?

Its the U S A not mexico not Iraq nor any other place. There are rules for a dam good reason and thats to have order and peace.

When I go to Iraq we as marines have to follow there way of life, and to under-stand them we have to speak there way of life.

We don’t go over the and show them the souls of our boot,then they will think we are telling them YOU ARE NO BETTER THAN THE BOTTOM OF MY BOOT.

My point is this
Mexico if you want to be a american then being a american is to know our way of life.

We are not bad people because we want to protect our borders, its our home.

THINK ABOUT THIS OUR ER ROOMS ARE FULL AND EVER DAY PEOPLE WAIT 3 TO 4 HOURS JUST TO BE TAKEN CARE OF, BECAUSE THE ROOMS ARE SO OVER BOOKED WITH PEOPLE CROSSING OVER AND THE HAVE NO GREEN CARD NO SSN CARD NOTHING, BUT A 2 DAY LONG HIKE AND THEY ARE THERE BECAUSE THEY ARE SICK FROM BEING OUT IN THE HEAT OR THE COLD AND WITH NO WATER.

MY BUDDYS KID FELL ON HER BIKE AND SLASHED HER LEG OPEN AND HIT A JUGGLAR VAIN AND ALMOST PAST OUT WAITING TO BE SEEN AT THE ER ROOM, 4 HOURS SHE WAITED AND I DON’T HAVE TO TELL YOU WHY YOU SHOULD KNOW WHY.

I feel if your not here the right way then you have no rights at all, I can say this because I’m in the sand box fighting for this place I call home.

MY VIEW ON THIS IS LIKE A ASS, EVERY BODYS GOT ONE.

p.s my wife is from cuba and if she did it the right way and all the way RIGHT WAY then mexico you can too.


AT THE VERY VERY VERY LEST

TRY TO LEARN ENGLISH SO WE CAN HELP YOU HELP YOUR FAMILY.


THE REPUBLICAN MARINEDOMYANIC.

Posted by: jake at October 27, 2005 12:00 AM
Comment #93288

Why are any of you complaining about illegal immigrants when in truth, if you are not a descendant of an American Indian, you are an invader of this country as well.

When our forefathers came to the Americas, they were not the first inhabitants of this country. The only reason why whites are the dominant group here is because they were the first group to terrorize the indians and drive them out of their own land. If the indians would have had an organized government and decided to the europeans as illegal immigrants and killed them all, do you think you would be having this conversation today? Don’t be so ignorant, think before you speak and learn to appreciate our diversity and count our blessings. If you were born in a third world country, to a family who’s home consisted of old car tires and metal sheets and you literally had to search the garbage for food, would you not try to work as hard as you can and save some money, to somehow be able to make the risky journey to a place where you hope to find a better life for your descendants? That is exactly what every immigrant is trying to do. You can judge them so easily, simply because you did not have to go through that, but somewhere along your family line, one of your ancestors had to work harder that you do now and make sacrifices so that you could have what you have today.

Please don’t judge anyone else, because, I am sure you have skeletons in your closet too!!

Posted by: taylor at November 15, 2005 11:39 PM
Comment #111427

I read the whole thread and I like Taylor’s comments, all this immigration you all see is people like my grandfather seeking a new world for his descendants, a decent place for us to live where you can earn your money honestly and bring food to your family’s table, my grandfather passed away an american citizen, the system has been benevolent with us Salvadoreans or descendants of Salvadoreans, Mexicans on the other hand as the system stands right now just have no chance of ever becoming legal, my brother and I had a conversation about illegal immigration the other day and from my humble point of view the whole issue lies in the immigration system, he went to Switzerland a few months ago and stayed for a while, he observed that they do have people from nearby countries immigrating to the richer countries in Europe as well but they do have programs in which people can become legal residents and the racial and social tension is much less, all of the social problems we see could be solved if there was a system in place to legalize all of this people, not all at once nor when they set foot in our country but over time, there is people that has come here from Mexico just after being born, if you talk to them they are american, all they know is this country, this culture and they love it as much as we all do, they have been here for thirty years or so and they are still illegal, it is just ridiculous, I find it unfair, some not even speak spanish and I have learned of cases in which some of those have gotten caught doing very small things, things that you and I did when we were younger and have seen how after finding out their legal status have been sent back to the “unknown” to a place they don’t really belong to, where they have no relatives anymore, I don’t know you all but this system for me is not working, I agree with punishing the criminals, we should not even have them here, there should be international agreements in place in which if anyone is proven guilty of a crime should be immediately sent back at the other country’s expense and such agreement should include that the criminal pays the time due in their own jails, there are ways to solve the issues as I see it, there is no will from the government to do it or there must be a reason but we just don’t know it.

Posted by: Rafael at January 9, 2006 2:39 PM
Comment #206065

All of these long responses are ridiculous. If you you aren’t a legal member of the United States, you’re not allowed to be here. None of you are in politics, therefore, you have no actual say of what will happen and what should happen. If the illegal immigrants ran this country and we were jumping the border, I put a million dollars down that they would kick our asses out. WORK HARD TO GET IN OUR COUNTRY and I have no problem with it. If you don’t like our country get your ass out. It’s simple.

Posted by: John at January 31, 2007 11:04 PM
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