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So Chris, how many Black people do you come in contact with on an average day?

How much time have you spent in New Orleans?

This is not exactly foreign territory to me, and what I read only has confirmed my direct life experience.

There will be exceptions to every generalization, but that doesn’t disprove a trend. Most social “truths” are statistical in nature.

I’ve never been to New Orleans.

So Chris, how many Black people do you come into contact with on an average day?

There is truth to leadership living off of their constituents. If dollars are a measure of how big a pimp one is, Bush and Cheney have to be the biggest pimps of all. I mean afterall, what have they done for Democrats or Independents lately, despite the fact that their offices are charged with the representation of all Americans.

If you must know, I’d say between 4-10 depending what I’m doing, where I’m playing poker, etc. But I don’t think those interactions necessarily have much bearing on my knowledge or evaluation of the true-blue ghettofied denizns of New Orleans, whom I have had the misfortune to interact with on 3 trips to New Orleans, and they made the South Side hood rats of Chicago look tame in comparison.

Love America, hate Americans. Sounds a bit like a split personality to me.

It is sad to think that no matter how good it gets for a group’s constituents, that it will never be in their leader’s best interest to shine light on it. As long as there is plight, real or perceived, then there is a need for these leaders. One day when blacks and whites live in perfect harmony, Jesse Jackson may be the last to recognize it.

It’s not so much living off of their constituents as it is exploiting them to maintain power.

David, be fair. These are not your average American. Didn’t John Edwards tell us there were two Americas. I sort of agree. There is productive, law-abiding America. And then there are the parasites, i.e., crooks, welfare cases, most politicians, lots of government workers, etc. I’m not too fond of the latter half.

Please pardon me, though, if I don’t care for certain Americans who have tried to rob me, acted the fool in Hyde Park Chicago, spray graffiti, deal drugs, etc. In other words, I don’t much care for the urban underclass, rural meth-heads, and other drains on society, whatever their race, class, or ethnic background.

Roach, you are correct in stating that poverty is not without cause in America. But to place the bulk of the blame for black poverty on to the actions or inactions of today’s black leaders is extremely shortsighted…if not downright hateful. If you really want to search for poverty’s “cause,” a good place to start is the Oval Office. Under this administration, poverty has steadily increased each and every year Bush has been in office. Why don’t you bring that up? Without even attempting to provide some balance, your post appears to be one-sided at best, and racist at worst. You state:

“The most obvious career criminals in the wake of Katrina are the demagogic, pandering leaders of black America.”

Funny, but I didn’t see any black American leaders acting criminally by witholding food and water for 5 days. That, my friend, was brought to us courtesy of our Caucasian friends in the (pun intened) White House.

Chris Roach,

Your piece is set up to bring out the absolute worst in people. Especially right wingers like myself. The comments from the Blue column are going to be time bombs waiting to be read. I will probably be thrown off the site. Thanks a lot.

If you’re worried about conspiracy theories, you might start by asking why so many blacks feel that conspiracies against them are so plausible. Hint: calling their leaders “pimps” is probably not going to make the situation better.

PS. Is it just me, or are other people annoyed that so many Red Team posters misuse anchors by linking to pages that are completely unrelated to the text? I mean shouldn’t the anchor text “wealth changes hands with lightning speed” actually link to something that supports this claim?

Steve
Time bomb is right, but if you notice, nobody is even touching the facts that he presented. Instead, they choose to call HIM a racist, hateful and whatever, while making excuses for the criminals.
And of course, blaming the actions of the criminals on Bush.
But we knew we would see that, didn’t we.

Although I fully expect to be laughed at for saying this, there are three things that people need to do to achieve (at minimum) a middle class life: Stay in school at least through 12th grade, if not longer. Stay out of jail. And don’t have children out of wedlock. I think that if you look at the demographic breakdown and cultural leanings of the people who were hurt the most, you will find that they are the same people who depend the most on the government (ALWAYS A BAD IDEA!) and did so because they failed to do the three things I just listed. This is the fault of each and every individual (ie; not the Gov’t, not “Black Leadership”). Each individual makes choices every day that affect how they, and unfortunately, their children, must live. That being said, I would like to add for the record that the children in the Gulf region deserved better from their parents and their leaders (both locally and federally). And yes, I’m prepared for the reaming I’m about to receive for being so darn’d ol’ fashioned.

Oh, and by the way, Mr. Magoo… more minorities own homes now than at any other time IN THE HISTORY OF AMERICA. So put that in your back pocket.
Also, to say that someone out there actually had the ability to put food and water in the hands of little children and other helpless sufferers, but just simply decided not to… that’s just psychotic.

Chris:

I agree with your statements to the extent that the current black leaders who speak up are generally in it for themselves. There is one dramatic exception: Bill Cosby.

He has come to Milwaukee twice to speak to black youth and explain to them that blaming someone else for their problems might be somewhat factually correct, but it doesn’t solve anything. Cosby said the black community has got to start protecting and taking responsibility for its’ own. He said the black community, just like any other subset of society, has got to stand on its’ own two feet and take responisibility for its’ own future.

I think Cosby’s words speak to all Americans. Stop blaming others and take responsibility for yourself and your loved ones. Help others where ever you can, and we will all live better lives.

Missjoy I agree with you on responsibility and didn’t mean to blame it all on the leaders. But the leaders in this case reflect and then reinvigorate a set of pathologies that have grown worse over the years through a combination of the sexual revolution, the welfare state, a vulnerable population, and a number of other structural factors. It’s a multi-causal event to say the least, and individual responsibility matters, but a sensible society makes the exercise of that responsibility easier and not harder, does not spread myths of white racism, and does not reward bad behavior with a generous welfare state that does not require changes in behavior.

I hope you do not call yourself a “Compasionate Conservative.” Your borderline racist statments are completely lacking intelectual merrit! Perhaps, you failed to notice that this is about more then just:

“…the demagogic, pandering leaders of black America. They are nothing more than pimps, who sell their clients’ grief for their own advancement. Like real pimps, they offer their putative charges almost nothing in return.”

What about all of the poor farmers, fishermen, people in the food service industry, and others too numerous to mention. Hard working people who live check to check, and believed (until Katrina) that their government would be there to help them in times of crisis - are they ALL just WHORES being PIMPED out by Al & Jesse?

Your blanket statements go a long way to prove your ingnorance or your lack of compassion. You can take your pick, and I hope through deep reflection that you will have time to, “Love thy neighbor as thyself.” Leviticus 19.18

Perhaps, you could even think what would Jesus do? I doubt that he would be using the opportunity mock those who are merely attempting to ease the pain of others (beleive it or not - that is their goal - helping the down trodden). In fact, I’ll bet you everything that he would be out there trying to, “save the downcast!”

May the God of your choosing have mercy on your soul!

One more thing! Watching the local news as hundreds of people were brought off buses and installed into a large center in downtown Phoenix to relieve some of the pressure on the centers in Texas, I watched as one guy, the first off the bus, said “I would like to thank everybody for all the stuff I gotten already, and in advance to say thank you for whatever more you could provide me with, cuz I appreciate anything you could give me.” The next woman off the bus complained loudly into the microphone that no one would tell her how she was going to pick up her welfare check that she was supposed to have gotten on Sept. 1st. The next person off the bus had heard what she’d said and leaned in to say that someone needed to hurry up, and come down and help organize things so they’d know where to pick up their welfare checks in Arizona because she had no intention of going back to N.O.
I almost vomited.

“beleive it or not - that is their goal - helping the down trodden”

While being driven around in limo’s and wearing thousand dollar suits?
They are not trying to “save the downcast,” they are profiting off them.
Jackson, Sharpton, Falwell and Robertson are all the same. They preach lies in order to make people fearful and to keep us seperated, just to make a profit.

Teeb, I believe in “tough love” and time-tested principles of social organization. What Kipling called the Gods of the Copybook Headings. The kind of white-guilt-induced blindness to the ways minorities are the chief cause of most of their problems in America today does a disservice to those whom it aims to help. I strongly disagree that Jackson, Sharpton, and the rest of those hucksters really want to help anyone, and, even to the extent they do, I think their prognosis and advice creates more problems than it solves.

You talk about hard working people who “believed (until Katrina) that their government would be there to help them in times of crisis.” Of course they did! The poor of New Orleans in particular are lazy and always looking for a handout and someone else to solve their problems. Ask anyone who has lived there. My brother lived there for four years. I’ve had numerous friends there. Even in this otherwise abominable radio program, some of the locals had the good sense to observe that the victims should, now that thye’re stable, start doing something like helping other people and working in the relief operation instead of sitting around all day and doing nothing. This is not something I’m making up, and, in accord with the first questioner, I have to wonder how many poor black people you know or have been around or been victimized by?

The only Saints coming out of the New Orleans debacle play for the NFL.

Roach, I wasn’t voicing any disagreement with you about black leadership pimping the pain of the people they purport to “help”. You’ve got my support on this 100%. I hope you don’t mind me jumping in here to say to TeeB:
None of Roach’s comments are remotely racist, and in fact held a great deal of thoughtful intellectual merit. I’d like to point to this sentence, as a matter of fact: “In early 20th Century America, black America’s leadership featured thoughtful debates between W.E.B. DuBois and Booker T. Washington about whether to emphasize an elite or vocational strategy of social advancement.” Today’s “black leadership” wrings their collective hands and then points blame everywhere but where blame belongs for their charge’s plight: INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY. It is NOT racist to state that people should behave better or take care of themselves. Your highly leading question “What about all of the poor farmers, fishermen, people in the food service industry, and others too numerous to mention. Hard working people who live check to check, and believed (until Katrina) that their government would be there to help them in times of crisis - are they ALL just WHORES being PIMPED out by Al & Jesse?” contains its own answer, my dear. The problem is that these people relied on the government and not themselves. They knew a storm was coming days ahead of time. There’s no way in hell I’d sit there and do nothing to protect myself and my little children! And Roach never said that these people are whores being pimped out… YOU did. He said that their GRIEF is being pimped out for the advancement of the agenda of “black leadership”. But nice try.
The Jesse Jacksons and Al Frankens of the world don’t want to help the down & out. If they couldn’t wail and point fingers and read out of their same old tired playbook, they’d be out of a damn job. They get fat, like vultures, on the suffering of the people they claim to serve, but they do no good, serve no one, and offer little more than divisive, race-baiting lip service. May God have mercy on THEIR souls, as a matter of fact.

I don’t much care for the urban underclass, rural meth-heads, and other drains on society, whatever their race, class, or ethnic background.

Posted by: Roach at September 12, 2005 04:39 PM

Missjoy, it is obvious to me from your last comment you have no empathy or understanding of what it is like to be poor in America. I got a college degree, and was poorer in a professional counseling job for half-house prisoners than I had ever been working my way through college on the GI Bill.

No concept whatever! Aside from having a dearly loved one die or leave you, I can think of no more depressing experience in America than living poor in America where abundance pervades your every waking moment but just beyond one’s reach.

As for those who would bundle the working poor in America with criminals, your comments are absurd on their face. I grew up in the inner city of Detroit in a declining and poor neighborhood for the first 12 years of my life, and I can tell you, by and large, they were all good people, African American, Irish, Albanian, Greek, Russian, Catholic, Jewish, and atheist. I met a great number of them since I worked in my Grandfather’s corner grocery store from ages 5 to 12.

We got robbed a few times, and I saw a gang fight take place in the parking lot. That was the criminal element, Purple Gang wannabe’s, but they were few compared to the rest of my neighbors. That was many decades ago. I live with amongst poor folks when I was in college for a time, good people too, and generous toward me. They actually wanted me to succeed in college and a few of these poor people even helped me toward that end. They enjoyed the vicarious experience of helping someone make it, even if they couldn’t.

Mose Coley, wherever you are, here’s to you, sir. May your poor one armed encouragement, support, and help never be forgotten by me or the few other young men you helped to steer away from your poverty and toward our success. Mose Coley for anyone interested was a 61 year old black man who kept himself alive hustling pool with his one arm. In between games, he shared wisdom, motivation, and common sense like his pockets were full of it. Were it not for his adopting me as a protege of sorts, and his guidance and example, I might never have made it through. Cheers Mose! Till our next sour mash session together!

Please pardon me, though, if I don’t care for certain Americans who have tried to rob me, acted the fool in Hyde Park Chicago, spray graffiti, deal drugs, etc. In other words, I don’t much care for the urban underclass, rural meth-heads, and other drains on society, whatever their race, class, or ethnic background.

You tell it Roach, I’m with you 1000%.

missjoy
Although I fully expect to be laughed at for saying this, there are three things that people need to do to achieve (at minimum) a middle class life: Stay in school at least through 12th grade, if not longer. Stay out of jail. And don’t have children out of wedlock.

No reaming or laughing from me. Your right on every point.

Chi Chi
I agree with your statements to the extent that the current black leaders who speak up are generally in it for themselves. There is one dramatic exception: Bill Cosby.

And did you know he’s catchong a lot of grief from the other ‘Black leaders’ for his message.

TeeB
Perhaps, you could even think what would Jesus do? I doubt that he would be using the opportunity mock those who are merely attempting to ease the pain of others (beleive it or not - that is their goal - helping the down trodden). In fact, I’ll bet you everything that he would be out there trying to, “save the downcast!”

The problem is that the only pain that Jackson, Sharpton, and Farrakhan want to relive is the one in their wallets.

Once again a disclaimer that this comment will tab me as racist or shall I say “Uncle Tom”.

Anyway, I have seen many pictures from Astrodome and Reliant Park on Flickr and I have one question for some of the young people displaced due to Katrina? Have they no shame? As a young able person, how can you just lie there(I am going by pictures I saw) and expect government and donations to sustain you day after day? I for one have been in the workforce since the day I was legally allowed to work in my state. I can’t imagine one day that I say to myself “I don’t feel like going to working anymore, I will just let somebody pick me up.” Anything, flipping Burgers, to cleaning bathrooms to writing software code. “Where there’s a will, there’s a way” is my motto.

One more thing, I truly hope they don’t show some of these images of so called hunger and poverty in Africa, Africans will laugh at what Americans call poverty and hunger.

Flickr Photo Album.

kctim, wealth separates, or hadn’t you noticed? Been to an exlusive club lately, or how about a No Democrats allowed, town hall meeting with the President?

David, that was very touching, but we’re not talking about the poor per se. Mississippi’s poor. East Texas is poor. Lots of Oklahoma is poor. Slidell is poor. We’re talking about a particualr group of poor people, the poor people of Louisiana, mostly black, who stayed behind in the face of a mandatory evacuation order, who did very little to prepare for the inevitable, and who in a pitiful and wretched condition proceeded to be hurt by their own improvidence, the criminal element within their midst, and the corruption and incompetence of their local government and police. The level of social breakdown there was many times worse than in neighboring poor rural areas and poor white areas like Slidell.

So, looking at two poor areas that behaved very differently, what do you have to say about that? In other words, what other factors were involved in the hellish conditions of the Superdome, the Convention Center, the mass looting, the crime spree, the shooting at rescue choppers, and the other chaos of New Orleans that did not transpire in other areas that equally resembled hell on earth in the wak of the hurricane.

I was poor more years of my life than I wasn’t, and I can tell you that the poor are just like everybody else.

There are plenty of generous, kind, industrious people who are rich and poor. But among the poor, just as among the rich, there are plenty who are lazy, corrupt, willfully ignorant, drunk or drug-addicted, violent, unappreciative and who go around with a giant sense of entitlement.

One big difference, however, is that you’re allowed to say this about the rich and not allowed to say it about the poor, which makes it harder to ever address their problems.

You need only ask almost anybody who has worked a long time in social work. It’s typical to start with a great deal of idealism and end up, over years or decades, disgusted by the cycles of self-defeating behavior which keep so many from realizing any of their human potential.

The rich who caught in these cycles tend to fuel their self-destructive behaviors with their own bank accounts, behind closed doors, and out of the public view. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.

The points you allude are largely inaccurate, but more importantly they are wholly irrelevant to what’s going on in New Orleans. You are talking about the socio-economic state of Black people. New Orleans is about the federal government response to the flooding of New Orleans and the motivation for such.

You talk to 4-10 Black people in an average day. Which do they spend more time talking about, Bush, the N.A.A.C.P., or Jesse Jackson? They spend more time talking about Bush, or whoever is the current President don’t they? Black people have the same leaders that whites do, i.e, Mayors, Governors, Pastors, Presidents, etc.

Jesse Jackson isn’t really a Black Leader, nor is Al Sharpton. True some people follow them but they have no power to effect any change. George Bush on the other hand leads more black people than J. Jackson, A. Sharpton, and L. Farrakan combined, and unlike them, he has power to effect real change. So, wouldn’t that make President Bush a black leader?

So the relevant question is why is Bush so inept at helping Black people?

There are five possibilities

1) He knew better but he didn’t care about the people suffering regardless of their race.

2) He knew better but he didn’t care about the people suffering because of their race.

3) He didn’t know any better. He thinks it’s acceptable for him to allow those people to suffer without the basics of life for 4-5 days.

4) He knew they were suffering but didn’t know how to help them any sooner.

5) He was completely oblivious. He didn’t know they were suffering. And/or that he should have helped sooner.

What does Black leadership have to do with that?

Roach, there has never been a situation like what occured in N.O. in modern times. But, I have seen many tornadoes devaste large swaths of homes in tornado alley. I have seen white poor people in Oklahoma die because they didn’t evacuate and did not buy homes with tornado shelters. Were they too lazy, and stupid, and deserve their fate? How about their children? No, your attitude speaks to me of a lack of awareness of the dynamics of social behavior in times of extreme duress and threat, like the Jews who aided in the holocaust, themselves victims of it. Such understanding I recognize is not available to everyone.

“Missjoy, it is obvious to me from your last comment you have no empathy or understanding of what it is like to be poor in America… No concept whatsoever!”
You, sir, couldn’t be more wrong, and I couldn’t be more delighted that you chose to play that card.

I come from poor, uneducated people. I married at 18. That first year we were married, my husband and I made a whopping $5,100.00 together, total (1991)!
The second year we made $6,800.00 together, total. The third year, we made just under $8,000, and the fourth year when we had our daughter, was a red-letter year, because we made $11,000, and we were pretty excited about it, too!!

And do you know what? We paid CASH to have that baby… $6,800.00 total, paid in monthly payments begining one year prior to getting pregnant, throughout the pregnancy, and continuing over 2 years after giving birth, thankyouverymuch… and we never once relied on any sort of public assistance or public healthcare.

I, sir, HAVE been poor. I was born poor. I grew up poor. I married poor. I lived poor for years. I’m no longer poor… not because I’m any better than anyone else, but maybe because I stayed in school, stayed out of jail, and married before I started having children of my own.

FYI, I’m also NOT white, I AM a minority (and I’m not a shade of minority that anyone cares to trumpet the cause of, there are no Sharptons or Frankens honking hullabaloo for Native Americans and I wouldn’t want them anyhow) just in case someone from the blue side wants to try that particular old line from the liberal handbook. I have refused any and all the goverment dollars that other N.A.’s happily suck up. I’ve got brown hair, brown eyes, brown skin, and I’ve got the same opportunities in this country that any blonde-haired, blue-eyed white girl from the Hamptons has got.

But, I have seen many tornadoes devaste large swaths of homes in tornado alley. I have seen white poor people in Oklahoma die because they didn’t evacuate and did not buy homes with tornado shelters. Were they too lazy, and stupid, and deserve their fate? How about their children?

Of course they didn’t deserve their fate. But if they ignored warnings, didn’t prepare or do anything to protect themselves, then they were foolish and it’s right to say so.

If you drive drunk, break the speed limit and on top of that don’t wear your seatbelt, you don’t deserve to die in a car accident. But it’s not the government’s fault if you do.

Darrius, you forgot a couple of possibilities:

1) He knew they were suffering, but the law did not allow him to send in the acctive duty military over the governor’s objection.

2) It was not logistically possible to move in supplies over an area the size of England any faster after that area had been destroyed by a Hurricane with floodwaters and washed out bridges everywhere.

3) The feds responded faster and on a grander scale than usual, and it takes a lot of time to mobilize, move, and employ tens of thousands of military personnnel.

or, lest we forget from the call in program,

4) Bush wanted to put the blacks on ships and ship them back to Africa as part of an evil conspiracy!

The conspiracy thinking from victims and the various black ?leaders? is beyond belief.

They are nothing more than pimps, who sell their clients’ grief for their own advancement. Like real pimps, they offer their putative charges almost nothing in return.

Chris Roach,

It sure is hard to imagine some black Americans believing that there’s a rascist conspiracy against them when writers such as yourself are publicly labeling black leaders as pimps and worthless parasites - or implying that most of the Katrina victims are career criminals. I just can’t understand where they get their wacky ideas.

Look, I think your message is another case of throwing gasoline on a fire. Your intemperate remarks are just as bad and as exaggerated as those you’re citing. It serves neither your cause nor the cause of impoverished black Americans. For example, your link to the University of Michigan makes very little sense as an example of pandering to constituencies.

You also link to a page where Congressman Jackson states, “Have we missed this catastrophe because of indifference and ineptitude, or is it a combination of the both? We have great tolerance for black suffering and black marginalisation. And today those who are suffering the most, in fact, in New Orleans certainly are black people.”

This a question followed by two statements of fact. You may not like the facts, but he hasn’t called anyone a pimp or a parasite in their statement. I dislike not only your message and your means of expression but also the paucity of your logic and your skittering along the destructive edge of plain old racism.

Good response, Roach, and you’re exactly right. As for the media and the left, they

1) Know all that to be true, but don’t think it will be as easy to undo the damage as when they they ran with forged documents during their last big lie and fabrication cooked up to attack the Bush administration.

or

2) They really don’t know or care anything about the separate powers of goverment and secretly pine for a dictator who will suspend the Consitution and send in the military not only after a disaster, but whenever and wherever it’s suspected one might take place.

Reed, I find your remarks to be predictable. There is no account of black failure that does not engage in back flips to pin black failure on white racism that will not, in turn, be labeled racist. There is something intrinsicaly racist in this, I think, insofar as it holds blacks to a lower standard.

So many charges of “racism” are a way for white people to one up one another, even though they have little to do with what will really help elevate the social condtion of black america.

I did not say that most victims were career criminals. I heard a black woman on the Houston radio call herself a career criminal yesterday afternoon. No one sugested she should be ashamed of herself or that her point was absurd.

I also find the Congressman’s remarks absurd. Whites have volunteered their time and money to an extraordinary degree, and our Republican-dominated government has contributed a mountain of money to this disaster. The biggest problem with the Congressman’s remarks is that he treats the New Orleans residents as passive victims, whose own behavior is treated as having nothing to do with their current circumstances.

The proper number of leave-behinds after a mandatory evacuation should have been 10,000, not 100,000.

1) He knew they were suffering, but the law did not allow him to send in the acctive duty military over the governor’s objection.

2) It was not logistically possible to move in supplies over an area the size of England any faster after that area had been destroyed by a Hurricane with floodwaters and washed out bridges everywhere.

3) The feds responded faster and on a grander scale than usual, and it takes a lot of time to mobilize, move, and employ tens of thousands of military personnnel.

Which fantasitic idea do you wan’t me to believe? They can’t all be true. Actually, none of them are true, but they are mutually exclusive.

Are you trying the say that Bush had the troops ready and raring to go but the Governor of Louisana stopped him?

Are you trying to say that we can’t use planes and helicopters to drop-ship food over New Orleans as we do in foreign countries?

Or are you trying to say that it takes four days for the military to respond and restore order to a small chaotic area on the mainland?

Another possibility—Maybe his mother taught him that since the people were underpriviledged being hungry and starving was working well for them.

missjoy, just because you were poor, in no way supports the fact that you are empathetic with the poor. Almost appears as if the poor are a source spot for the memories they bring back. Don’t take it out on the poor, crippled, handicapped, dysfunctional, ill-educated, uneducated. Work to help them up in the manner of Newt Gingrich or Bill Clinton, rather than condemn them for their circumstance. Violent criminals excepted, of course.

Sanger, I don’t see anyone here blaming the Hurricane caused deaths on the government. It was those who died and suffered waiting for a response after the storm passed that many here object to the government over. There is a huge difference not evidenced by comment.

missjoy, you said: “more minorities own homes now than at any other time IN THE HISTORY OF AMERICA. So put that in your back pocket.”
—
Okay. But do you mind if I use my front pocket instead? The one that knows African-American homeowners are at least 4.4 times as likely to receive a subprime loan as whites? (FYI, a subprime loan is designed for borrowers who may have less than perfect credit. To protect lenders’ extra risk, subprime loans carry higher rates and fees than prime loans. The loans can be valuable for home buyers and borrowers who could not otherwise borrow money to buy a home or refinance their existing loan.)

I’m glad you were able to climb out of poverty. Try climbing out of self-absorption next.

Magoo, not to mention the fact that there are more minorities in America, millions and millions more. Hence their homeownership numbers should have commensurately increased. The wonders of population growth. And the horror of the prospect of a white minority in America. So where are the secure borders against illegal immigration? Not forthcoming from this Whitehouse, that’s for sure.

There is no account of black failure that does not engage in back flips to pin black failure on white racism that will not, in turn, be labeled racist.

Roach, If I understand your rather impenetrable prose here, I’d say there are quite a few accounts of failure that put much blame on the black community itself. Many of those accounts are, in fact, given by black thought leaders. But I imagine even many of those folks are pretty pissed off right now about New Orleans.

As for predictability, at least I didn’t engage in the oh-so-tried-and-true stereotypes of pimps, parasites and criminals.

Darrius
Are you trying the say that Bush had the troops ready and raring to go but the Governor of Louisana stopped him?

When it took her 4 days after Katrina hit to ask for New Orleans to be declared a disaster area, YES!
Not even your almighty Clinton could send troops (or anything else)in there without the Governor asking for the area to be declared a disaster area.

THE GOVERNOR OF LOUISANA SCREWD THE POUCH ON THIS ONE. The Governors of Mississippi and Alabama asked to have their gulf coast areas declared disaster areas 4 days BEFORE the hurricane hit. After the hurricane pastd through help came in on it’s heels.
Of coarse the mainstream press isn’t reporting this because it would conflict with the way they want to portray things.
My information for those who will ask where I got it comes from a sister I have in Mobile, and a cousin in Boluxi.

All of these accusations against the poor. It’s their own fault you say. And this from a country where so many profess a christian faith. Poverty does not occur in a vacuum. It is a byproduct of poverty of the spirit. For those who are raised in circumstances of degradation, lack of self respect, lack of self reliance, poor education and a culture of little respect for education in their own cultural surroundings, to name just a token number of reasons for such poverty of spirit, you cannot reasonably expect that they are all going to suddenly jump up and say; “Hell, I’m gonna get on my bike, work hard, get a better education and create a productive life that will uplift everyone around me.” The reality of the lives of many of the poor, wherever they may be, is that they never see beauty. They only ever see degradation, and they cannot scale the psychological precipice which might allow them to hope, to dream. And into this reality come the smug moralists vomiting cliches, work hard and everything will work out. In order to effect meaningful change in anyones life, they have to have vision. And if you are grubbing in the dirt every day just simply to keep body and soul together, it’s difficult to see hope, or beauty. In my country, my parents generation used to say about looking down on others, “There, but for the grace of God, go I” Instead of abusing the poor, we should be seeking ways to guide them out of poverty and ensure that they have the necessary resources to enable them to make metamorphic decisions in their lives. For shame on those who mock and have no compassion, from whatever background you come. When my people starved during the famine in the 19th century, while grain was exported by the shipload, we received help from Native American tribes. We have not forgotten even today.

Well said, Paul.

Roach,

I have read and re-read this article a number of times and I still haven’t a clue of what exactly your point is.

The only thing that I can come up with is you are pandering to the crowd that will ultimately say, “see didn’t I tell you?”.

You make a statement that could be construed as racist, claim that you will probably be labled racist for saying it, then say it anyway.

Thus, the wisdom continues to flow like sewage from the right.

If you are aware of the problem, you are part of the answer.

Too many people who say they want to help only want to help themselves.

You do not have to be a brain specialist in order to use your own brain.

If you really want to help… do it. Don’t just talk about it.

Who in this great land does not have the chances to suceed? I was brought up by both parents working for minimum wage, while raising 6 kids. We were poor.

In my teenage years, I was heavily involved in pot and was a drunk. I joined the Navy and developed job skills and provided for my college. Upon being discharged, I went back home and got involved again with the same things. I couldnt afford a car, but I never Ran out of pot and beer. I blew a free ride to the University of Alabama(twice) just to party.

A few years later I pulled myself back up and started over. I got a manufacturing job and started back to school. It was really hard, but I did it.

Explain to me, please, what government program or entity gave me that vision, that hope, and that spirit to achieve. To think that our leaders, elected or otherwise, can do it is at best foolish. Our leaders purpose is to ensure that our way not be blocked by lack of opportunity. Can anyone in this country achieve a better lifestyle for themselves or their children if they are willing to work and sacrifice?

In our 30+ year “war on poverty” we have spent almost 30 TRILLION dollars, yet the poverty rate has not changed. People have become more dependant on government, not less. Any attempt to reform the system just becomes a political football.

It amazes me that how quick people grow tired of the “failures” in Iraq after a couple of years, but the Failures of social programs are taboo. Quite frankly, we have a duty to help the people who cant help themselves, but we have an equal duty NOT to help those that can, but wont.

As for the food drops that didnt arrive, you dont randomally push cargo out of the back of a C-130, there has to be ground contacts, a set drop zone and distribution plan. The Red Cross was prevented from delivering foodstuffs to the Superdome by the governer.

I personally believe that the breakdown in Louisana is indictive of a larger problem. The populace in a large number could have made preperations for the bad days but didnt. The State Government had a plan but didnt implement it, until it was too late. People that really needed the help were left out. And we are all wondering why the Federal Government wasnt able to cover for peoples(and local governments) inadequate actions.

And into this reality come the smug moralists vomiting cliches, work hard and everything will work out. In order to effect meaningful change in anyones life, they have to have vision. And if you are grubbing in the dirt every day just simply to keep body and soul together, it’s difficult to see hope, or beauty. In my country, my parents generation used to say about looking down on others, “There, but for the grace of God, go I” Instead of abusing the poor, we should be seeking ways to guide them out of poverty and ensure that they have the necessary resources to enable them to make metamorphic decisions in their lives.

Paul,

That’s well said. I understand the messages of the up-by-your-bootstrappers, but you’re right. We don’t help wisely or well enough in the U.S., especially in an era where manufacturing jobs are slipping away and some full-time service sector jobs aren’t enough to lift a family out of poverty.

The Red Cross was prevented from delivering foodstuffs to the Superdome by the governer.

In our 30+ year “war on poverty” we have spent almost 30 TRILLION dollars, yet the poverty rate has not changed.

submarinesforever,

Could you please cite your sources for those claims?

So many charges of “racism” are a way for white people to one up one another, even though they have little to do with what will really help elevate the social condtion of black america.

Roach,

Just to be clear, I didn’t say you’re a racist, only that your language and the metaphors you use strike me as skating close to the edge of rascist language. Since you speak respectfully of the debates between W.E.B. DuBois and Booker T. Washington, you get the benefit of the doubt from me. Others will have to make up their own minds.

sanger stated that there are crimal wealthy and criminal poor. That is true. To lump ALL of the folks from New Orleans into the same “slime” category is wrong.

If there was just one (and I know there were more because I’ve seen them), but even if there was just one 80 year old person that outlived both their pension and their relatives then they, my friends, were wronged. If there were just one mother who’s husband left her and her children while she is working two jobs to put food on the table, then she was wronged. If there was just one nurse who stayed to care for those in intensive care during the disaster, she was wronged. If there was just one amputee war vetran that owned a jewelry store living paycheck to paycheck without his own transportation, he was wronged.

My friends and fellow Americans (RED and BLUE), everything is not black and white. There were good, hard-working people that couldn’t leave that were trapped and some died. There were those that had the means to leave that elected not to. There were those that were of the criminal background that stayed and exploited others. Just because of a few bad apples the whole bunch should not be spoiled.

Where is our compassion? Where are our hearts?

I don’t make excuses for the “so-called” black leaders. They are tooting their own horn.

There are people hurting there. Good people. Who cares what their background is or how they became the poor or working poor. They are people all the same. People with children, mothers, fathers, and feelings.

Who wronged them? The local, State, and YES, the Federal officials. The responsibility should be shared. Who continues to wrong them? People so smug they lump everyone into the the “white and black trash” category. The people that assume they were too stupid to leave. The people who assume they were ALL poor by choice or because they were just too damn lazy.

Everything my friends is not clear cut. There are grey areas. There are many, many exceptions.

Politicize response if you wish. But please leave the people who suffered out of it.

Politicize response if you wish. But please leave the people who suffered out of it.

Nicely said, Tom L. On one positive political note, the mayor of Houston Bill White seems to be one of the few politicians of any party to have handled Katrina with heart, guts and quick decision-making. He preaches both government and self help. I read in a letter he wrote to the survivers: “You do need to reach out to family and friends, and see what they can do to help you plug into a network, and resume your life outside a shelter.” He’s the kind of person both sides of the political continuum may be able to get behind.

All this talk of race and hate back and forth from each side really feel’s great please keep it up you are making me erect.I use to hang out at bus stations and soil myself but this is much more fun.

Darius,

Did the hurricane affect only blacks? I remember seeing Asian, Hondurans, Middle Eastern, Hispanics, Africans (who think of themselves not black but as Africans) and Caucasians of this country and others. I don’s see them standing in front of a TV crying about how bad their plight is. You don’t see them politicizing a hurricane. Of course the other nationalities are not as important or have the same needs as a black man. His needs are greater and everyone else though treated the same is a lesser person than a black.

I guess my first question to you is, do you live in New Orleans? I do about six or seven months a year. Do you come in for a slot machine run with drinks and shows? Because if you new anything about New Orleans you would keep your facts about people closer to your vest. The black population in New Orleans has learned how to use the system to the fullest. They have been doing it for so long that it is considered politically correct to show a failure in ethics, morals and work. They are told not to trust successful blacks and use them as mentors but to look at the sports, movie and music industries for mentors. Murders are common on the street by morning, noon and night. Recently they had nine in one day. That was a little above average but not much. I have seen prostitutes on the back of a car fornicating at two in the morning under a lamp post across from a church. Robbing tourist is considered a sport for younger kids. I know this sounds like any big American city but the numbers they wrack up here are in the league of New York, Chicago and LA. The only problem with all of this is New Orleans is only 25% at most of their size. Police here would not help girls during a flood unless they showed their breast to them. The proud to serve crowd at there best. I have a truck that every piece of glass at one time or another has been broken. I quit buying hubcaps and trying to expose anything nice. I live in what is called the Garden District. It is nice but they come into the neighborhood at night. You hear gunfire at-least five night a week and countless ambulances going to the hospital. With all of this in mind I guess you personally should be on the truck to New Orleans to show us how it could be done. You knowing your way across the three only bridges from the north blocked by the state. I know Blanco used her troops for the best effort to help her own. You ever air dropped containers in twenty, fifteen, or even ten feet of water while sniper is on a roof taking pot shots at you. You have been filled with so much CNN that you don’t know which way is the truth

If you can remember back the response time given on this grand of scale usually takes and was estimated a minimum of four days after the storm cleared. Then you have to cut trees out of the road to get truck thru and move any vehicles, houseboats or houses out of the way along with raging water. I think they did pretty well for someone who endangered their life while you set in HVAC a told everyone, what they should have done. It’s easy to tell everyone what he or she should have done when you have CNN constantly telling you what he or she would have done. Go try it on for yourself and see if you can stomach two days of it before you squeal your way out of the bayou.

I read another know it all, who hasn’t so much as gotten his butt wet during all of this, other than at the beach or shower. I’m tired of seeing you so called armchair professionals talk about things that you only mimic from CNN and any other idiot they can throw in front of you. Why don’t you come on down and swim in feces, chemicals and don’t forget the bloated bodies. I’m sure that you will find it a job you will rush into without preparation.

I also hate to tell you that more whites are on the welfare roll in the United States than blacks. I think the reason could be because the black population only is 13% of the nations population. That must mean, oh gosh I don’t know, that other races may have poor also. But I guess they are a different kind of poor. They are the poor that doesn’t count. When the body count is done you may be surprised how equal the races are in deaths considering where they live and the dominant race.

My observation’s in life of today are: Mother nature doesn’t check your race when she hits you, every store likes you when you spend money and they love you even more when you spend more, every hospital like the guy that has insurance more than the one without, and if you can purchase saint tickets on the fifty yard line, we don’t run in the same social circles.

There is no black and white, Asian and black, Spanish and black, Hebrew and Black just Americans trying the best they can, to help people like you and me during a bad time. They don’t need all the television, radio and newspapers that pump out the negative to get someone to listen or read the garbage they spill. I don’t; think liberals are bad people and I don’t think conservative are bad people. It’s the hate mongers in between that make a dollar splitting them up that I am mad at. If you can’t help the problem and you don’t have any new ideas, then get out of the way and let us fix it while you mimic that sit in TV or radio studio. Your just like Mayor Nagin and Governor Blanco, let me talk about it after the fact but I am not doing to do a damn thing when it hits me in face but blame someone else.

Sorry for my out burst, poor grammar, and mispelled words but God knows, if you are not down here then you should just shut up. We know what’s going going on better than a bunch of one line glory seekers.

Olen

Salley,

I have seen several caucasions and a couple of asians on…oh my gosh…CNN. When you consider that 75% of the population is black one would think that they would dominate the media coverage. 75% IS a mandate. You are correct, many of the folks have learned to use the system. But everything is not cut and dry…as I’ve said before. There were those that were helpless and those that were good people without means. I don’t care if they were in the minority they were still wronged.

This goes deeper than the response to the disaster. The levies were designed to withstand a category 3 hurricaine. Our tax dollars were to upgrade the levies. Much of that money got diverted because of PORC in other areas. For this one cannot blame the Democrats or the Republicans. One can blame the Democrats AND the Republicans.

BTW, ever hear of a helicopter or ship? Or a flyover drop of supplies? There is blame. Not simply Federal, although they do share some. Trust me, had they been there on day one they would be up on their soap boxes preaching the success. Our leaders from both sides are going to have to learn to take responsibility for the bad as well as the good.

Salley,

BTW…I agree with most of what you said…not picking on ya at all.

Although I’m not a big fan at all of black leadership in America (I’m come from Newark… If anyone knows anything about corrupt black leadership at a local level, I do), I do have to say that this opinion:

The same cultural defects that led and sustained multigenerational poverty among so many black families in New Orleans have also contributed to the “storm after the storm,” where many of the storm victims found themselves victimized again by their peers or immobilized by their own dependency.

really pains me. I come from a unique situation; having been raised by a Republican black household (amazing especially in the inner city), I have heard and understood all the arguments about the dependency of black America. However, it is one thing to hear the arguments, but another thing to live it.

Anyone who has grown up poor knows that it is difficult and extremely hard to get out of poverty. Through a lot of hardwork and a pinch of luck, people can do it.

However, let’s talk about reality.

The average black family today is outstandingly becoming headed by single mothers (more than any other race by a significant margin), and a significant portion of these households lives in poverty. Considering how most of these mothers don’t have college educations and have to take two minimum wage jobs in order to make ends meet, it’s no wonder that many of the families stay there on that level. Yes, they could go to night school and get education but this is the real world:

a.) Who takes care of the kids? Daycare costs too much.
b.) How do you pay? Take out loans… But how good is the credit? Save up until you go… But how long would that take?

I would also like to add that living on welfare doesn’t mean you live well. Everytime I hear about complaints about people on welfare, I conjure images of people drinking pina coladas by a pool with a platter of cheese and crackers. I remember a time when my family had to swallow its pride and go on welfare when I was in elementary school. My sister was born with sickle cell and the hospital bills were rough. We barely lived; on weekends, I would eat an egg (breakfast), a sandwhich (PBJ), and some rice (with ketchup). It wasn’t so bad because at least we ate, but c’mon. Anyone who has been on welfare can tell you they’d rather earn more money to get off and not live like that.

But earning more money requires getting a better education which goes back to the point iterated above.

In addition, the emphasized text above(“cultural defects”) leads me to mention the Moynihan Report (The Negro Family…1965) which basically caused the poverty situation we have today. The focus on the “defective” nature of the black family instead of the inherent (and at the time, blatant) discrimination in jobs at the time it was published created policies which exarcerbated the very condition it was trying to fight against.

I would also like to ask the source of these “defects”. Moynihan stated that Jim Crow and slavery - institutions that were not created by black America - created this ‘problem’ of single mother households. If you agree, then please give suggestions as to how we can solve these defects. I can already see the “it’s the individual, stupid!” comments ready to come at me, but that would also lead to the conclusion that racism doesn’t exist/the playing field has been levelled… But I believe the contrary. Inner cities are populated by poor blacks. Poor blacks can’t get good educations because of their communities lack everything necessary for a good education- not just schools, but the surrounding environment as well as other things. Where you learn is just as important as how you learn. Would you like to hear on the night before the SATs gunshots at 1AM? I have and it really isn’t pretty. Make no mistake; I’m not for affirmative action for color (but for socio-economic status, hell yes) since *I* have to constantly prove myself to my peers that I belong in my college which is disheartening. But if that’s what it took for me to get the heck out of the hell I was in, I’m fortunate.

“Multigenerational” is also misleading. Do you actually believe that blacks were at fault for being in poverty before the 70s? Has anyone forgotten about the race riots that have left lasting scars in our larger cities to date? In my own community of Newark, you are overwhelmed by the dilapidated buildings which were formerly factories. White sprawl brought down property values in large parts of the city, and it is only in the last decade that levels have picked up. The middle class long left after the riots and you only have the poor and the destitute. If one were to consider (loosely) those born in the 70s and after as the true heirs of MLK’s dream (i.e., had a shot of achieving equal success and prosperity without any dark shadows Jim Crow), then they’ve only been alive for 35 years or less.

And after watching the local, state, and federal governments fail the citizens of New Orleans, I doubt that any sane black person would like to be “dependent” on the government.

In conclusion, this post probably rambled more than it should have. But I have witnessed both the successes and failures of my community. Yes, I had friends who got pregnant at 15 and so on. Yes, one of my friends that I knew in middle school is in jail for murder. Yes, many of my friends couldn’t get into college. But considering the environment we’re in, it is not hardly an “if” but “when and who” will become the statistics so coldly printed out year after year. I won’t turn my backs on my community just as Americans shouldn’t turn their backs on other Americans. Though no one has stated it out right, it is implicit in the “help yourselves” statement. I would like to ask if anyone here can honestly say that they where they are today without the help and the encouragement of others. Heck, even Bill Gates didn’t create Microsoft by himself.

I do agree that the black leadership today sucks. In fact, I would argue that there is no black leadership. Compared to the giants of the Civil Rights Movement, Sharpton, Jackson, et al. are barely recognized and are only given attention when blacks are pissed off (which they are now). Obama has more clout with blacks. At least he does with me (albeit only rhetoric), and he hasn’t slammed Bush.

But Republicans must realize this… If nothing else, New Orleans was a bad bad thing for Bush PR-wise. Barbara Bush’s quote (you’ve all must of heard it by now) doesn’t help matters much for the Bush family’s image. Blacks hardly felt Bush’s compassionate nature; I sure didn’t and I understand that bureacracy is what it is. Republicans have had a hard time getting the minority vote —- and really, after public relations quagmire that is New Orleans, is it any wonder why?

Anne,

Long post but very intersting. Thanks for your insight!

Circumstances can mitigate, but individuals are responsible for their behavior and can influence the outcomes of their lives more than anyone else. People who understand this usually are more successful than those who don’t. We do nobody any favors by letting them shift their share of the blame. Your troubles might not be your fault, but they are your problem and nobody can help you more than you can help yourself.

Most of the people in New Orleans were good people, but there were a significant number of criminals who took advantage of the situation. As with most crimes, the victims and the perpetrators were usually of the same race.

It is also true that the lawless behavior of some individuals in New Orleans exacerbated the problem and made relief efforts much harder. These are bad guys, no matter what their race. The race issue here is a diversion.

How to work your way out of poverty. One way is education. How do I pay for it. There are financial aid offices just waiting for your to walk in the door. Grants, scholarships, students loans. I do not have a hight school diploma you say. High Schools, adult learning centers, community colleges, even some places of employment offer tutoring for your GED. Get your GED. Go to a junior college. Take a one year course. For example, a LPN in Ohio can earn 20.00 - 25.00 an hour. This is a one year course. Go to HVAC training this usually is a one year course. There are a number of training courses that you can take. You can’t go full time, Fine, go part time. Take two years or three years but go. I don’t have child care. There are govt vouchers, trade time with friends, ask you family. Some Community colleges have child care centers. They use the kids to teach early childhood development. If you want to go farther in education, great. You are now living abve minimum wage. If you go to school make sure you are being trained for something. There are many with degrees going back to school to get job training. THere are many excused not to do something. Just look at the govt and Katrina. My grandmother often said “Can’t never did anything”. You know what she was right.

How many BILLIONS of OUR tourist dollars have been taken in without EVER BEING USED ON THE LEVEES of New Orleans? (f’ing WASTED!)

ASK YOUR HIGH-ON-THE-HOG MAYOR WHY HE PAID HIMSELF INSTEAD OF PAYING FOR LEVEE WORK?

How many fat-assed, welfare MOM’s & DAD’s are REFUSING WORK IN EVERY STATE IN THE UNION? EVEN THE WET BACKS DON’T DO THAT! (Shame, SHAME, SHAME, ON YOU!)

FEMA was there, you had the attitude that WE (U.S. TAXPAYERS) OWED YOU A FREE RIDE…get off that bus…STUPID…anyone UNDER AGE 55 SHOULD HAVE BALLS ENOUGH TO GET OUT ON THEIR OWN AHEAD OF THE STORM!!!

People aged 70+ sat out the storm AND the floods BECAUSE THEY DID WHAT NORMAL PEOPLE DO WHEN A STORM IS A COMMIN’…hoard water (tub, pots, jugs, etc.), hoard food (canned goods—meats/fishes especially, soups, etc.), hoard batteries, flash-lights, candles, etc.

WHAT THE HELL ELSE DO ANY OF YOU FOLKS LIVIN’ ON THE GULF EXPECT?

Why the old folks makin’ it out 2 WEEKS LATER & you cryin’ ‘cause you gotta live in a sheltAH??
BOO-F’in’-HOO!

…oops, forgot:

AND YOU LEFT YOUR OWN ELDERLY BEHIND!
That’s just plain NASTY!

Shame on ALL of you!

Sure as HELL isn’t MY job or my governments’ job to GET YOUR GRANDPARENTS OUT OF THE CELLS YOU HAVE LEFT THEM IN! ick/NASTY!

I want to know why the woman interviewed on the Wether Channel on Sat. before Kat. hit said something like this,

“…all I’ve got is a soda & a bag of chips. [FEMA] will feed me…”

…THOUSANDS LATER, NOBODY GOT FED…you selfish, greedy bitch!

Where’s FEMA when they (WELFARE RECIPIANTS) are ALREADY lining up FOR A HAND-OUT DAYS BEFORE THE TRAGEDY?

Do we/I owe them anything?

I find it amusing that Republicans keep spouting Compassionate Conservatism and turn around to kill people. You can be Compassionate and you can be Republican but you can’t be both. They mutually exclusive of each other.

C.L.O.

Yes, there are lots of resources for people who want to go to school, but it can be hard to know about them. I know that my high school counselors never went out of their way to tell people about opportunities. You had to ask or you were out of luck. That was at a high school in a squarely middle class area. I imagine that counselors at poorer schools have even a harder time telling people about those opportunties because they have to deel with an even larger number of deliquent students, students on drugs, failing students, and pregnant students than my counselors did.

I always like to be the one who brings the last word in a debate of this caliber. And it looks that I will be this time also so here it goes.

1) “Farrakhan, Jesse Jackson and, Al Sharpton promote racism against whites”

To Mr. Roach This is not correct, Whites help us to fully grasp an understanding of racism, without the help of black leadership. And on a side note if you are convinced that the only black leadrership present ate this time are the three names you mentioned, you definitely don’t have any black influences ie. associates. Unless the 4-10 blacks that you know are of the pseudo existence, basking in the ambiance of the elite socialites they try to imitate
Next
2) “Wealth changes hands at lightning speeds”
This I agree with. The wealth of America does change hands at lightning speed, but it’s usually down the line of well off constituents to eager a#$ kissers willing to sell their soul for a congressional seat.
Next
3)Ahh To Missjoy the sites idiot, I would like to say thankyou again for making white women of this society look, well stupid, if your not white, you could have fooled me with your response. I have envisioned from your FREQUENT REMARKS through out this day that you are probably from a well fabricated backgroung full of all the dream trinkets your daddy lavishly encased you in. If I’m wrong again here’s some advice grow up and pull your head out of your a%$ it makes talking that much easier
Thanks for your time!!! Feel free to respond

The idea that the FEMA response was slow because of racism is in itself a lie, and a slanderous one at that. The sad thing is that racism is used so often as a political weapon it’s meaning is diluted. What does it mean to be called a racist today by the left?

Here’s another well known racist you might have heard of… I thought this an appropriate quote for this thread.

Booker T. Washington:

“There is a class of colored people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs, and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs.

Partly because they want sympathy, and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs.” rpv.blogspot.com

Read this post. It’s about hurricane Katrina, and the aftermath. It’s from the perspective of a national guardman. Interesting read.

While the term, “Pimp” may be innapropriate, the basic thrust of the argument is sound. In the last 25 years since martin Luther Kings Death, black leaders have played the martyr. The black population, which is marginalized, has eaten the martyrdom argument hook line and sinker. If the black “leaders” were true leaders, they would be setting an example by trying to integrate their fellow population into society through education, balanced thought process’ and promoting healthy life choices. Blaming the government for not responding quickly enough to such a massive disaster on grounds that this points to some anti-black conspiracy only shows that the black “leaders” are looking to continue their martyr culture. This will prevent blacks from acheiving true equality in society. Until the poor black population truly believes that altering their economic situation requires them to alter their thinking process, they will not succeed in removing themself from that economic state.

In response to the question on MSNBC: “What more could you, the mayor of New Orleans, done?”

“I could have SCREAMED louder. I didn’t scream loud enough for help.”

Where has he been lately? Is it Dallas?

I hope we never have a Mayor like that in our city.
It has also been said that he neglected to call for the mandatory evacuation because he thought that big business in New Orleans would be really pissed at him if he shut them down.
I thought Democrats put people before big business? Maybe he didn’t read that memo.

Who voted him into office? The rich white people? Don’t think they have the majority.

Wow. Interesting topic and responses. While I think Roach has a shallow view of race in America and I don’t want to be associated with anything he’s written, I did think it was strange that a few black leaders immediately yelled ‘racism!’

I saw Jackson say that on CNN, and it didn’t even look like he believed it himself. In fact, the reporter pinned him down on how he thought the diasater response debacle was race motivated, and he just kept mumbling until he made the black/poverty connection.

I can understand the poverty connection, but the relief efforts were in no way racist. I was happy to see most black leaders focus on poverty rather than racism.

In light of the growing millions of Americans who’ve slipped below the poverty level every year for the last four years, that’s something we should get beat over the head with until it’s fixed.

And it’s not so much a black problem any more either. In the last couple years, we’ve seen mostly the white middle-class slipping into poverty while the numbers of blacks and Hispanics stayed about the same.

Though this is a bit of derailment, I think it bears saying:

Please pardon me, though, if I don’t care for certain Americans who consistently rob me, acted the fool in SEC investigations, have tax consultants to get out of as many taxes as possible, launder money, outsource to child labor, undercut wages, etc. In other words, I don’t much care for the uber rich class, metro cocaineheads, and other drains on society, whatever their race, class, or ethnic background.

The road runs both ways. I’ll accept yours if you accept mine.

Some New Orleans Facts…

Total Population 484,674
Caucasion 135,976 [28%]
African American 325,947 [67%]
Other Minority 22,751 [05%]

Total Caucasion [28%] Total Minority [72%]

Owner occupied housing units [47%]
Renter occupied housing units [53%]

% of population over age 60 [15%]

Median Age [33.1]

source : neworleans.areaconnect.com/statistics.htm

These figures IMO make it extremely difficult to make any rational assumption that there are (or were) any racial undertones to the disaster relief effort in the wake of Hurricane Katrina.

The reference to people be rescued and given quarters on Navy ships being inappropriate because black people were brought to America on slave ships is preposterous. How much more safe could one be than on a Navy ship during time of crisis/need. I wonder if those placed on luxurious cruise ships had the same complaint.

Look, you get tens of thousands of mostly black people left to their own devices in a pair of overburdened shelters while national leaders, mostly white, fall down on the job to get them help, and charges of racism will be inevitable. Why? Because for years, the black, inner city community has been treated with contempt and paranoia by the establishment. When you’ve been called welfare queens, criminals, and drains on society for years, What reason do you have to give them the benefit of the doubt as to why they failed to help your people, why they left them dying, starving, thirsting for all the world to see?

Additionally, what did authorities seem most concerned about when this crisis was building? Criminal behavior. They were more worried about looters looting than they were about people starving. One reason why people weren’t leaving was that the Crescent City Bridge was cut off by police from other cities.

Racism doesn’t have to be white-pointy-hat obvious, or built on white supremacy. It can simply be built on eternal low expectations, of not looking at these people as thinking, feeling, and understanding human beings, deserving of the same treatment people like us would expect. In this case, the racism had a human cost.

That’s the racism I think was at work, not the full blown hatred that some in the black community are charging. But I can understand why they’re charging that sort of thing.

Steve Smith-
Actually, the cruise ship idea was nixed. Apparently, few people were that inclined to be on the water again, for understandable reasons.

A few thoughts.

1) Gladly on that last point Chantico.

2) I find it strange that the conspiracy thinking that the black leadership has done nothing to combat, and in some cases has fomented, has not been discussed. This is a real problem, an authentic cultural defect that stops black progress. It is widespread, listen to any black call in program. Remember the Snapple rumor of some years ago. Conspiracy thinking deflects individual responsibility and suggests a nihilistic world that will never reward your efforts. It’s majorly counter-productive and that was the chief point of this thread.

3) As for how to cure black poverty, I think that’s a very complicated question, and I won’t pretend to have the answers right now. But there’s an old saying, “If you’re in a hole, stop digging.” Why do we effectively subsidize illegitimacy? Why have black leaders not made it their mission to prevent black teenage and out-of-wedlock pregnancy? Well, because that would require moral clarity, and liberals are mostly incapable of that. Why if the country is so racist are Mexicans, Asians, and others getting ahead without the benefit of being native English speakers. To paraphrase Clinton, “It’s the culture, stupid.”

4) My critics on this thread who more or less call me racist should realize that their charge has been diluted over the years. It has come to mean, anyone who disagrees with liberals on race, anyone who dares to criticize blacks, or anyone who deviates from p.c. orthodoxy. Whatever you call me or not, I aim only to speak the truth as best as I can see it, and I’ll take my lumps for it.

Stephen Daugherty,

Thanks for updating me on the cruise ship thing.

I posted a factual summary of the population by race in New Orleans for the primary purpose of demonstrating the improbability of the types of racial occurances alluded to in other posts.

Numbers alone belie preferential treatment to non-minorities. Rounding out fractions, 3 of every 4 people floating in the water or, stranded on a roof were what we would call a racial minority. Actually in that circumstance what we would call a racial majority WAS THE MINORITY.

If you could somehow develop a formula regarding the racial makup of the rescue crew it is entirely possible that in many instances the majority race was the minority race.

IMO this negates any speculation that race played any role whatsoever in the rescue and post rescue treatment process.

Now as to not inclined to be on the water again. We are talking about a Navy Carrier that is a floating apartment building DOCKED. We are not talking about floating around on a pallet or in a small 6 person boat with 8 people in it. I dismiss that thinking out of hand.

Your psychological or philosophical approach to defining racism may have validity in some situations but, IMO we cannot delve into the potential societal impact on minorities going back to slave days and apply it to the attitudes of hurricane victims.

Roach,

“Why have black leaders not made it their mission to prevent black teenage and out-of-wedlock pregnancy? Well, because that would require moral clarity, and liberals are mostly incapable of that.”

Mostly incapable. There is a nebulus term if I’ve ever heard one.

Moral clarity? What a load of crap. You make it sound as if Blacks are screwing like bunnies, just so they can stay in poverty.
Teens of all races have sex. The problem is hormones. Education is the answer, but the right doesn’t want to face that fact.
Planned Parenthood isn’t just about abortions, but the right doesn’t want to hear about that either.

“Why if the country is so racist are Mexicans, Asians, and others getting ahead without the benefit of being native English speakers.”

Asians largely learn English before they come here, and Mexicans don’t need to because they do jobs that “nobody else wants”, and they have the support of their own community.

Just being Black in American society is a tough row to hoe.

brown~

That was a great picture in your flickr photo album….were my eyes deceiving me or was that a picture of a boy throwing up a gang sign?
Nice……natural disaster and the only thing this little moron can think about is getting back to his drive-bys.

Mexicans get jobs because even though they’re poor, they’re hardworking and enterprising. There is no reason that enterprising blacks in this country could not do all of the things Mexicans are doing. Poor whites and poor blacks and teenagers did these things before thirty years ago. You say it as if it’s set in stone, “jobs nobody wants.” Any man or women with self-respect will want any job before he takes a handout. And that, in a nutshell, is wrong with the culture of most able-bodied poor people in America that are on government assistance.

I read this article yesterday, but was so thoroughly disgusted and angered by it, that I had to avoid replying. I knew full well I’d end up critiquing the messenger rather than the message — then find myself firmly slapped by the WB manager.
I’ve just now read the responses in this thread — and I see that once again all the folks on the left, and David, and Rocky? (I’m not quite sure where you stand on the political spectrum, but you always make perfect sense to me.) have done an excellent job of replying to this article.
But my favorite definitely has to be Paul in Euroland’s post — so eloquently stated, and so wonderfully true from start to finish.
Unfortunately, I can’t help but think that far too often on this side of Watchblog, it’s Pearls of Wisdom tossed before Swine.

I am amazed with these conversations. To think that people really think that race is an actual issue in these relief efforts is astounding. Couple reasons why relief didn’t come, just throwing ideas out here.1. It was mostly Poor people that didn’t evacuate. In a city that has a majority of black people, the majority of poor people will be black. 2. Who votes more, Middle and upper class or lower class citizens? Also, which races and classes have the highest voter registration? If the Govt does have a plan to keep the black man down, why don’t the victims do more than just complain? Conspiracy theories are a dime a dozen. 3. It happend in a coastal city that had enough time to prepare. The local elected Govt failed more drastically than the US Govt. The people of that city elected their leadership. So, who’s really at fault for the lack of aid? The people who elected idiots maybe.

Oh and what the black community needs to be strong is what any group does, GOOD LEADERSHIP. Look at America right now, what’s Bush’s approval rating now? Something like 39% or something. The black community , latley, has had extremists that are loud, elloquent, and angry. All of them lack staying power and a unifying goal. I know this will sound contradictory but Bush 9/11 2001 was that leader for the US. He was a doer not a talker and people got behind him because of it. Although his goal may have been a bit off he stuck with it and adapted. Now of course we see his true colors but, he did get us out of a hole. The black community may not keep it’s leaders forever but that’s America, everchanging leadership for everchanging people.

Any discussions with theliberal left on the Katrina disaster is an absolute waste of time. This disaster presented the liberals with an opportunity to blame ANY response from the administration either way as being WRONG. 1. Liberals have no concept of the time constraints to mobilize required to mount an aid effort this size and don’t care. IF Bush had federalized the NG in La. they’d be howling out the other side of their behinds about how he overstepped hi authority and how they need to investigate that. This was a no ‘win’ situation from the beginning for the administration. The Dems were going to make political hay off the suffering no matter which way the Administration took.

Mark,
“IF Bush had federalized the NG in La. they’d be howling out the other side of their behinds about how he overstepped hi authority and how they need to investigate that. This was a no ‘win’ situation from the beginning for the administration.”

I agree but, state’s right are important. Bush was screwed either way. But, hey thats what he gets paid for. People are just growing to dislike Bush more and more. Any excuse they can think of is a good one. People don’t like being mislead or mistreated.

Exactly. If you had read my previous post, you’d know that this is actually the fastest, largest federal response to a hurricane in our history!! But since it’s a Republican in the White House, it’s not enough. Here’s the link. You wanna judge a response to a disaster. Ask an expert, not some dipshit in the media with a lousy communications degree! This whole thing has been a big red herring, and the so-called black leadership are just exploiting this disaster, along with the democrats. The fact that you folks are so quick to cry racism proves to me that you know you’re full of shit. You aren’t equipped to argue with the points the author brought up, so you fall back on insults. A common liberal tactic.

And Chad, you’ve hit the nail on the head. People are going to complain no matter what! You know why? Because he’s a Republican. That little R next to his name means that no matter what he does, he’ll be labelled a racist. People will say he doesn’t care about blacks. No matter how much he increases education funding, it won’t be enough. No matter how much money he throws at social programs, it won’t be enough. Admit it. Half of you can’t even name a single one of his “hurtful policies.” I was talking to a liberal friend of mine, and she insisted that Bush was cutting funding for HUD housing. So I looked into it. By reading the HUD website, I discovered that she was referring to the “American Dream Act,” whereby individuals that qualify for HUD can get a lump sum payment of their assistance up front to use as a down payment for a home. This way, they might actually become self-sufficient. Her liberal mind interpreted that as a cut, since those people and that money won’t be in the program anymore, sucking off the government, which is where liberals want all of us to be. Now you guys are holding President Bush to a standard to which no other President before him was held. Before you make a judgement about whether the federal response was slow, why don’t you compare it to the response to other disastors? Did it ever occur to you to look into that? But no, political pundits and journalists can’t be bothered with learning about military logistics, troop movements and supply lines. It’s much easier to criticize.

Adrienne,
Thanks for pointing out Paul in Euroland’s post. He made very strong and discriptive points. I kinda wanna kill myself now because of the bleak picture he painted but, wow. And Adrienne this was good ” I knew full well I’d end up critiquing the messenger rather than the message — then find myself firmly slapped by the WB manager.” “Unfortunately, I can’t help but think that far too often on this side of Watchblog, it’s Pearls of Wisdom tossed before Swine.” I think you may have done the thing you intended not to do, maybe. Did you get slapped or were you too generalized.

So uh Paul in Euroland Good Post and lets hear more eh.

madmatt, Liberals read? If it didn’t come out of the mouth of some poltical hack on Communist News Network it can’t be true!

Roach-
Any job? Simple economics dictates a floor through which people can’t drop without endangering their survival. In case you haven’t notice, unemployment is not a big problem outside of disaster-affected areas. No, people just get jobs that can’t pay all their expenses, so they end up eating on foodstamps, getting other assistance.

Why? Because the prices for things are high in this country. A call for self-sufficiency for people without providing them with self-sufficient incomes is a pipe dream. If the rich weren’t hording the resources of our corporations and our economy to themselves, it would be easier to get these people off the public dole.

Mark-
We had forces there to be deployed on a day’s notice, and supplies there almost the day this happened. They were waiting for Bush’s order. As for federalizing things? Man, you ask why people are so ticked off with this administration, and you don’t even register that your own comments illuminate precisely the reasons for that: you’re justifying the botched effort on the principle that it would have caused political controversy to do it right.

Oh, poor Bush. He’s so scared of the left that he can’t even do what he needs to do for the nation’s good. That’s a yellow-bellied excuse if I ever heard one. You do what needs to be done, and take the hit for it later. If we Democrats were so foolish as to get in the way of that, we would deserve the backlash that would likely cause. Be concerned about the people’s good, and they’ll be concerned about yours.

Madmatt7g,

I’m not saying bush does everything right or everything wrong. Bush has done some stupid things and can be somewhat dimwitted at times but, can’t we all. I really can’t support anyone in the Govt at this time. I mean Bush is by no means a great president. He has done a lot of things in office but, he has done none of them greatly. We have yet to see any of his work pay off greatly.

The hurricane was a hurricane there was nothing we could do about it. Except what we always do in times of crisis, weather the storm. This whole race issue should have been expected. There will always be issues that take away from the real issues at hand and, it should come to no one’s surprise that the real issues aren’t the main topics at hand. Where else does this happen people’s actual problems at hand being focused on and fixed? Our politicians direct our attention away from our negatives and toward the negatives they see fit for our time and focus.

Race has been a growing issue For the past 100 years. There have been rises and falls in it’s popularity and right now it’s on a rise. More and more minorities are becoming wealthy and with wealth comes power and an ability to reach masses of people. The same words have been being used together for decades now. Anytime anything remotely discriminating happens it’s a lawsuit. A women yesterday in Oak Grove, Missouri was awarded $34,000 because she applied for a job at Hardees and was passed over. Hardees hired people that were equally qualified but, she was born without ears so she was discriminated against. How far will this go. How long until we can go to company, apply for a job we aren’t qualified for and sue due to the fact we were discriminated against because we don’t have adequate training.

All this nonscense takes away from the issues at hand.

Stephen Daugherty:

Your argument suggests that you either didn’t see, or chose to ignore my post. So here it is again.

Exactly. If you had read my previous post, you’d know that this is actually the fastest, largest federal response to a hurricane in our history!! But since it’s a Republican in the White House, it’s not enough. Here’s the link. You wanna judge a response to a disaster. Ask an expert, not some dipshit in the media with a lousy communications degree! This whole thing has been a big red herring, and the so-called black leadership are just exploiting this disaster, along with the democrats. The fact that you folks are so quick to cry racism proves to me that you know you’re full of shit. You aren’t equipped to argue with the points the author brought up, so you fall back on insults. A common liberal tactic.

Posted by: madmatt7g at September 13, 2005 01:29 PM
And Chad, you’ve hit the nail on the head. People are going to complain no matter what! You know why? Because he’s a Republican. That little R next to his name means that no matter what he does, he’ll be labelled a racist. People will say he doesn’t care about blacks. No matter how much he increases education funding, it won’t be enough. No matter how much money he throws at social programs, it won’t be enough. Admit it. Half of you can’t even name a single one of his “hurtful policies.” I was talking to a liberal friend of mine, and she insisted that Bush was cutting funding for HUD housing. So I looked into it. By reading the HUD website, I discovered that she was referring to the “American Dream Act,” whereby individuals that qualify for HUD can get a lump sum payment of their assistance up front to use as a down payment for a home. This way, they might actually become self-sufficient. Her liberal mind interpreted that as a cut, since those people and that money won’t be in the program anymore, sucking off the government, which is where liberals want all of us to be. Now you guys are holding President Bush to a standard to which no other President before him was held. Before you make a judgement about whether the federal response was slow, why don’t you compare it to the response to other disastors? Did it ever occur to you to look into that? But no, political pundits and journalists can’t be bothered with learning about military logistics, troop movements and supply lines. It’s much easier to criticize.

Chad, I agree with you. In so many political arguments, I get this uneasy feeling that everbody is wrong. That somewhere, there is the truth, but nobody can see it because they’re so blinded by their partisanship. Objective truth is dead.

Stephen: “You do what needs to be done, and take the hit for it later. If we Democrats were so foolish as to get in the way of that, we would deserve the backlash that would likely cause. Be concerned about the people’s good, and they’ll be concerned about yours.”

Agree. But, as you can see the idiots get on T.V and make wild accusations and the public starts to take sides. There would have been an outcry and unhappy people either way but, your right there’s a right and a wrong way to do things. Once again it looks as if Bush has done the not entirely right thing. :) He is slow in more than one sense of the word.

If your critique is that we need to streamline our response to disastors by cutting red tape, then say so. But to suggest this is a racial issue, and to lay blame on the President is ridiculous. I draw a parallel to the field of medicine. Doctors, for the longest time, didn’t wash their hands before and after they treated patients, because they simply didn’t know about microorganisms. Lots of people died. When Paul Simmelweiss came along and proved that washing your hands decreased occurrences of infection, did that mean that all the previous doctors were to blame? That they should have been defamed and ridiculed? If nobody knew it was a problem, then the problem is discovered, do you blame the people who were doing things just like everybody else before them?