Republicans & Conservatives: Archives

Dream on.

wow, first to comment, great post and oh so true (though I’m sure many will disagree)

RealDebate:

“Democrats are trying to dump the liberal label for the softer sounding progressive. The only problem is the new progressives are twice as nutsie as the old liberals.”

Examples? If you’re going to have a position, you should at least try to support it. I, for one, would like to understand the basis for your assertion. Of course, if you don’t have one, please refrain from making sweeping generalizations that serve nothing but your own “right-wing-nut-ball” (your words) ideology.

wow RealDebate.

a wonderful example of political masturbation.

done for yourself…by yourself.

well done.

Mister Magoo I believe I mentioned ignoring Lieberman while thrusting Dean into leadership. Pointing to Cindy Sheehan off now to protest the Blue Angels of all things would be another.

Everyone knows you need to move center to win. What the left is doing is moving further left while throwing a new title on it.

I expect to get many nasty replies on this simple little dittie, because it is simple and I am right.

What wishful thinking! The backlash in 2006 is going to sting like a bitch! Hence the need to enjoy fantasies while there is still time.

RealDebate,

“Everyone knows you need to move center to win.”

That is such a crock.

What you need to win is a message that people belive in.

If you are depending on Ann (I never saw a microphone I didn’t like) Coulter and Pat (I can’t talk now my feet are in my mouth) Robertson I actually pity you guys.

The bloom is off the rose pal. You have an obnoxcious pundit that loves to hear herself talk, and a doddering charletan as you spokespeople?

Give it a rest.

Seriously, ReadDebate, I have not seen a single poll indicating Sheehan’s thoughts are mainstream or receiving majority support in this country. Many of her thoughts are inconsistent.

There is however according to a number of polls now, a majority of Americans who believe the war in Iraq is not going well, that the US should be taking concrete steps toward the removal of our troops. That camp divides on when, some saying immediately and others saying when the Iraqis can effectively take our place.

The war began with a divided public opinion, and it will end, hopefully some day. When it does, the nation will still be divided. When a nation elects to invade another nation when that other nation has not attacked first, it is logical and rational, predictable, and I would contend, healthy, for the public to be divided.

The real problem facing Republicans in 2006 is not having gone there, but, the management of it since. Bush asked for another term to finish the job. As Grover Norquist said, if Iraq is on our windshield in 2006 instead of in our rear view mirror, the GOP could have a difficult time of it.

It must be said that while the Democrats took 40 years to run the USA into the ground, it only took Republicans 10 years to destroy it.

David R. Remer:

Careful now. You don’t want Perplexed, Rhinehold or Eric to come over and say you are not Supporting The Troops, do you? Don’t forget that when you criticize the GOP, Bush and The Troops you are hurting America. The President, Republicans and The Troops deserve our loyalty and faith.

Remember!!! Support The Troops… and Bush… and the Rightwing…

To do otherwise means you hate freedom and love Terrorists!!!

“…because it is simple and I am right.”

and your handle is RealDebate…

ahhh irony…how sweet your honey.

I am so sick of the Right Wing-nuts telling everyone else that if you are against the war then you don’t support the troops and you are unpatriotic. What a crock of crap. REAL patriots question their leaders and make damned sure they take the responsibility of their actions. And then we take them out and shoot them. Well, maybe not that harsh, but patriotism is toward the country, not a politician, or a party, but what is good for the country. Bush has done nothing good for the country and is definately not a LEADER. America has had now 2 major disasters while he has been in office and both times he sat and did nothing. Oh, excuse me, he was on vacation for the hurricane and reading a children’s book for 9/11. Maybe the only level of book he is capable of reading.
Anyway. I am against terrorists. I am for America. I support the troops. But this war is bullshit and as a patriotic citizen of the United States of America it is my DUTY to help end this war, save our troops, rebuild America and run the people who have taken over the Republican Party out of town. Oh yes, let’s not forget. I am a LIBERAL, PROGRESSIVE, DEMOCRAT.

Rocky -

Why is it when RealDebate talks about problems on the left, he mentions politicians and when you counter him with complaints about the right, you mention right-wing commentators? I’m not aware of Ann or Pat running for office or having any kind of appointment position in the Republican Party. Howard (the unifier) Dean however, soundly rejected by the voters of his party, found himself sitting in it’s throne.

Of the two major parties right now, the Republican Party is clearly the more moderate of the two parties. Which has something to do with thier success in the past few elections.

David -

You may be right. 2006 is the Democrats big chance. The Republicans haven’t been this vulnerable in this millenium. But voters aren’t going to run to the Democrats if they don’t center their party a little and present some kind of cohesive message besides “Dontcha hate Republicans?”.

I think that RealDebate has touched on something real and you kind of highlight it - IF the Democrats fail in 2006, when the Iraq War and gas prices are giving Bush and his party a black eye in the polls, then they are finished for years to come.

Every election cycle since 2000 I have predicted big Republican wins and every time I have told how wrong I am and how the Democrats are going to crush everyone and every year I have been correct. So I smile when I see you beat your chest so confidently.

Would you be concerned if Iraq were to stabilize in the next year? Would that be good for the country even if it meant another four years of Republican leadership?

OttO, the only people happier than me to see our troops being brought home next year, or this, will be the troops themselves, and their families.

If you are asking if that would be sufficient for me to vote Republican in 2006? Absolutely, unequivocally, NO! There are a host of policies and priority issues which I adamantly oppose about this Republican Party in Congress.

On some of them, I have millions of Republicans siding with me. Like the ever growing national debt. Slowing the rate at which we keep going into debt, is not sufficient. I left the Democratic Party years ago because having taken economics and philosophy of economics, I joined conservative ranks in calling for fiscal discipline and an end to rising deficits.

It was obvious that events like the tech bubble bursting, 9/11, Katrina and OPEC were going to hit our economy hard, and having a surplus or at least a zero debt or close to it was the only way to responsibly prepare for such events that were going to require deficit spending.

Then these Republicans got control of the whole budget and spending process and what did they do? They made Democrat’s call for pay-as-you-go sound conservative. They actually proved the Democrats all those years weren’t the drunken sailors we thought they were at the public trough: Power and Spending Drunk Republicans made Democrats look half sober. Do you realize, by the time Bush leaves office, Republicans will have increased Clinton’s national debt 100% in 8 years, topping 10 Trillion dollars?

No, I’m voting for pay-as-you-go. I have a 14 year old daughter. If she were 18 today and got a job, her federal income tax debt would be $16,000 dollars more today, than when Clinton left office.

I am voting to insure one party never, ever, controls both the Congress and the Whitehouse again. And I will be voting for the candidate who steps up to the plate and demands that our borders be secured post haste. And my votes will be prioritized in just that order, with one exception.

I will not vote for any incumbent regardless of what party they come from. These incumbents have made an art form of putting special interests ahead of the people’s needs and agendas for far, far too long. It is time some of us, a lot of us, started showing up at the polls to Vote The In Guy Out! Regardless of who they are.

It is time voters took a stand and reminded politicians just who the hell they work for. Not Shell, Not Haliburton, Not AARP, not MoveOn.Org. They were hired to work for ALL of us. And anti-incumbent voting is the only way politicians from any party are ever going to get that message and swallow whole like medicine that’s good for what ails us all in this country.

So, NO, OttO, bringing the troops home is not sufficient, Not by a long shot. Though I will celebrate the event with the best of them.

OttO, you said: “But voters aren’t going to run to the Democrats if they don’t center their party a little and present some kind of cohesive message besides “Dontcha hate Republicans?”.

I could not agree with you more! You are absolutely dead on target with that observation.

I think the Republicans (if that’s what you can call em) have failed the American people time and time again. This fish stinks from the head down. If voters don’t see the massive failures in prevention, planning and execution (in war and natural disaster) then we are all doomed. What would have happened if this was a biological attack? Bush’s advisors would have to wait 5 days to tell him for fear of another book reading incident.

Howard Dean is a lunatic to the right because you all call him crazy over and over then slap eachother on the back and chuckle about it. Well, Dr. Dean is not in charge of this mess. Boy Wonder and his Merry Band of Looters are, and I’m worried about where this will take the country.

Wingnuts, remember this quote: “I’m a uniter”

David,

I think you misunderstood - I was asking that if Iraq turning the corner perhaps ensuring another Republican victory in 2006, would that be a fair trade-off to you. I think that if we hadn’t invaded Iraq or if it had gone smoother last year, Bush would have trounced Kerry instead of the fairly slim margin they had.

It’s kind of the curse of the challenger, which John Kerry just couldn’t get down and what my ‘Celebration’ entry touched on - the challenger has to convince voters to win by convincing them that everything is terrible or going to be terrible, and for a presidential challenger, everything rides on bad news, which is why I was trying to see if anyone would admit that bad news may be good news politically or ideologically or at least where an organizations sole agenda may lie.

Cindy Sheehan implied recently that Bush not meeting with her was good for her as a protest leader. But if her goal was to meet Bush to try and influence his stance on the war, to bring the boys home and save lives, then how is it a good thing that she never had that opportunity? Why is the bad news of not accomplishing her noble goals good news for her?

If I spend a month trying to catch fish because, well because I’m hungry and after a month I say it’s a good that I didn’t catch any fish because now I can keep fishing…isn’t that a little crazy?

And is that something that mainstream thinkers understand and agree with?

Anyway, goodnight…

I think the public is going to move left in the next decade or two. I think the public is tired of being told things are doing better, tired of being told that everything is being done that can be done, and still seeing things screw up.

The Republican Party Leaders can’t talk their way out of this mess this time.

Rational Democrats and/or Republicans will reclaim the government when enough Americans not effected by the kool-aid being poured by the corporately manipulated news media, realize that “specific elements” of the Republican Party has become nothing more than an un-American neo-fascist cult originating and operating from the sewers of the American political, business, religious, and media communities.

RealDebate, your post is a semantic null. You might as well have just said, “Liberals suck!” and saved us the time it took to read it. Time I will never ever get back.

Howard (the unifier) Dean however, soundly rejected by the voters of his party, found himself sitting in it’s throne.

I love this one, OttO. I suspect Republicans will be shocked to find out that Ken Mehlman is king of the GOP and sets its agenda.

I think that if we hadn’t invaded Iraq or if it had gone smoother last year, Bush would have trounced Kerry instead of the fairly slim margin they had.

That seems obvious. Lucky for Bush, the election was about “character” instead of issues. It’s almost like the GOP strategists planned it that way.

“If you vote for Kerry, terrorists will come over here and cut all your heads off!” said Cheney. I love a smart, well-argued national dialogue. :/

The GOP will lose as many votes for their hateful bashing of non-christians and Christians they deem not real as …
the Dems will lose for their hateful bashing on christians, ‘real’ or otherwise.

The GOP will lose as many votes for pushing their brand of christianity onto the rest of the country as …
the Dems will lose for pushing their brand of humanism on the country.

The lines will become deeper, the divide greater.

i do not think anti-incumbancy voting will do anything but increase the power of the party system to the detriment of the power of the individual politician. i am for voting for politicians who regularly and effectively voice and vote a mind of their own— politicians with the heart and guts to buck their own party for the sake of their own people. Otherwise i am for voting third party, even if s/he happens to be an incumbant.

Mr. Remer. You sited polls showing the majority of American thin the Iraq war is not going well. I would count myself in that number, and am on the Zogby list, I get polled all the time.

The question they do not ask is should we more agressive? That is my issue, and many out there would agree with me. More than you think would fit into that category.

I think many of you missed the larger point. The Author, Mark Green of Huffington Post, called Coulter and Roberts mullahs while proclaiming mainstream status for Cindy Sheehan.

I admitted Coulter and Roberts were, out there.

If radicals like Sheehan are considered mainstream within your party, you can not win.

Do you really think that will help you take one soutern state? It may strengthen your hold on the Pacific Northwest and the Northeast, but you need to make up ground in the south.

The current message will get you no where in that goal. And what is the current message, Bush stinks, Bush Sucks, Impeach Bush oh and Bush stinks. Nice platform. Remember folks Bush is Dead Man Walking, he is not running again.

I’m offering advice here as to how you might improve and win. Instead of considering it for what it is, advice, I am attacked as a wingnut.

And that is the reason you will continue to lose.

I say you are all goofy and we should elect Ross Perot.

Actually, Bush, Katrina, Iraq, and $6.00/gal for gas may help sway the public to vote republicans out. Americans are pretty mind-numbingly ignorant about the first 3, but the gas prices just might do the trick. Time will tell.

OttO asked “I was asking that if Iraq turning the corner perhaps ensuring another Republican victory in 2006, would that be a fair trade-off to you.”

I answered that. And explained my answer at length.

Cindy Sheehan is a single person with a grievance. The fact that others empathize/sympathize with her grievance does not make her mainstream any more than Coulter. Sheehan is not the issue. Her attendees in the ditch or in D.C. are not the issue. The real issue is the polls showing Americans moving away from supporting Republican’s handling of Iraq, and economy. That is the mainstream issue funneling media attention on a symbol of that growing discontent.

When a government, any government acts without the support and approval of the people or loses that support and approval, (45% for Bush and less for Congress), that is the issue that will drive media attention to whomever is willing and able to vocalize that issue in an interesting or unique way.

At this point there is no evidence whatsoever that Republicans will lose the House, gerrymandering of districts have pretty much guaranteed that. The real political question behind all this is whether Republicans will be able to hold the Senate and Governorships. They question was not so hard to answer just a few months ago, but, the mood of the country has soured. Katrina highlights, even if just subconsciously, how very vulnerable we are.

Vulnerability at home in the US is a feeling Americans are not used to and don’t want to have to get used to. Katrina will stand as a symbol of how ineffective government our government is, just like 9/11, despite all the research, intel. and data warning years in advance of impending catastrophe.

This is the issue, and frankly, I think this issue transcends party lines and divisions. This is bigger than parties and individual politicians. This is about Americans waking up to the realization that politicians all, have forgotten who they are supposed to be working for and their most primary function, to protect and defend American people in their homes and places of work, whether in the the Twin Towers or in New Orleans or Biloxi, Ms.

RealDebate, good point. Some Democrats have even been calling all along for enough troops to get the job done. Some Republicans here have called for nuking the whole damn country of Iraq and be done with it. But these are not mainstream views from I am seeing in the polls. Most Americans just want to see the light at the end of the tunnel, and without a date, the tunnel has no end. That is the quandary Republicans have painted themselves into as far as polls are concerned. Republicans have sold the case much too well that setting a date would aid and abet the enemy. And yet setting a date is the only thing that will change the poll numbers.

Just another example of the quagmire which is Iraq.

One of the greatest errors in political thinking is the assumption that things will always remain as they are now.

In my view, the Republicans will be harmed on many, many fronts in upcoming elections — the rising price of gas, the perception (valid or not) that the party is dominated by the extreme right-wing, the disintegrating situation in Iraq, an escalating crisis in the cost of healthcare, etc.

It seems silly to me to think that the Republicans can hold both houses of Congress and the presidency and still assume that they can blame the Democrats for their failures to address these areas. All other things being equal, the party in power is usually held responsible.

That being said, it is of course true that the Democrats need to put forth a strong candidate with a consistent, coherent message. But to assume that this is impossible is to ignore history.

RealDebate-
I think the Republicans should focus less on winning elections, and more on proving worthy of that election. Y’all are dropping the ball seriously, and all your beautifully focus grouped rhetoric is falling on deaf ears.

This is the inevitable result of image-based politics. The Republican Party is so busy trying to take over a country that is only half willing to be ruled by Republicans, that it’s forgotten it’s got an actual government to run, and results people expect of it. We don’t like to fight losing battles against enemies abroad or disasters here at home.

The time for rites of focused-grouped doubletalk are over. America is in trouble, and the Republican party is failing to step up to the plate and do it’s job. It took three days for Congress to get around to scheduling a session to approve the necessary funds for Katrina relief. Yet they all came back on a Sunday from their vacations to reinsert Terri Schiavo’s feeding tube. The GOP is in a world of its own, and I do not envy their political position now.

Pride before the fall…

Stephen,

The time for rites of focused-grouped doubletalk are over.

Let’s hope at least one of the parties is able to learn this and choose to serve the entire people and not just a select chosen few.

The reality of all this is that those supporting Democrats have been saying for years now that their time has come. They were wrong in 2000, 2002, and 2004. They were wrong in 1994 when Republicans took over control of Congress. If they keep saying it, they will undoubtedly be right one of these times, and many will then say, “See, I told you it was gonna happen!!”

There is reason for Republicans to be concerned about 2006. The perception of the war in Iraq is not good, irregardless of what progress has been made. And perception relates more to votes than does any reality. Katrina doesnt help—it hurts oil production which means gas costs more. The current perception is that the Feds are bungling relief efforts.

Remember though that there is a long time before the election cycle for those perceptions to change. Simply look at the 2004 election, with its major swings. At one point, Howard Dean was virtually the presumptive nominee…only two days and one caucus later, he was gone…a firework having burned off all its incandescence.

The bottom line: talk about it all you wish. Time will tell. There is reason on both sides of the aisle for encouragement as well as for concern.

My best guess: I’ll tell y’all next November 5th how its all gonna shake out.

Republicans will continue to win the presidency because they’ve successfully rigged the election in their favor.

We’re living under a fascist regime, and it’s only going to get worse. As much as I abhor firearms, I’m seriously considering buying a shotgun. I’m afraid it’s the only way I can protect myself and my family from the insanity of the neocons.

Perhaps the luxurious, lazy days of warm and always fuzzy liberal / conservative political considerations are over, and Americans are finally awakening the importance of putting practicality foremost. Hurricane Katrina is a level 5 wake-up call that will be ringing well beyond the 2006 elections.

The practical lessons Katrina is teaching and will teach: U.S. infrastructure as manipulated through this administration’s miasma of self-delusion and reactive, but ill-considered planning is sadly and plainly demonstrated in the abysmally poor FEMA response to our own citizens suffering and dying in the deep south. Bush is responsible for FEMA part of the unworkable bureaucracy of “Homeland Security”. The irony is stifling and the implications elsewhere are obvious and scary. Bush exclaimed today that “relief efforts are unacceptable”, stating the obvious to cover the ineptitude and utter incompetence of his own designs. As the saying goes: “You can’t argue with success”, but a dark corollary applies to such abysmal, sad and painful failure.

RealDebate:

“I believe I mentioned ignoring Lieberman while thrusting Dean into leadership. Pointing to Cindy Sheehan off now to protest the Blue Angels of all things would be another. Everyone knows you need to move center to win. What the left is doing is moving further left while throwing a new title on it.”
——-
Again, where are your SPECIFIC examples? Blaming Dems because Dean is the head of the DNC is absurd without citing some specifics. It would be like me blaming the entire Republican party because of Mehlman. It might be convenient for me to make the assertion, but unless I back up that assertion with specifics, my viewpoint means nothing — just as yours currently means nothing with regard to the Dems.

And Cindy Sheehan? Give me a break. She is a citizen, not an elected official. If you’re going to blame the Dems because of Cindy Sheehan, I’m going to blame the Repubs for Bill O’Reilly. Absurd.

——-

Finally, you state:

“I expect to get many nasty replies on this simple little dittie, because it is simple and I am right.”

Wow. It must be great to know you are right without explaining why. Perhaps Bush has a cabinet post with your name on it.

You know what’s really going to bury the Republican’s?
The fact that they obviously don’t care about the average people of this country.

Look at the other columns in this blog. The writers in the other two have been continually worrying and fretting over the humanitarian crisis that is Katrina — but the writers of the Right haven’t written a SINGLE ARTICLE yet.
So many of our fellow Americans are dead and still dying, people are dehydrating and getting sicker and sicker, and you’re more concerned about whether the Republicans will win the next goddamn next election. This only points up how completely fucked up your priorities are, and how out of whack your mindset truly is.

This reminds me of something I saw on CNN last night — one of their reporters and cameraman have managed to get into parts of New Orleans where there are people (lots of them they claimed), who are trapped on the top floors of apartment buildings with very little food and water. They interviewed a group of people — a woman and her husband, a man who had swam for eight hours with his three dogs to get where they are, and a couple from Scotland who were on vacation. They’re squatting in a time share apartment they broke into together and are terrified to go down to street level because of all the violence that’s happening below (that particular area is not submerged).
The couple described how they had begged many people earlier who were leaving the city in their SUV’s to let them come along with them so they could escape what they’re going through now. But the owners of the SUV’s had all said no — since there would be no room for their SUITCASES then. Those people were more concerned about keeping what THEY HAD IN THEIR LUGGAGE more than they wanted to HELP PEOPLE GET OUT OF A FLOODING CITY.

The Wrong Priorities paired with a serious lack of Human Kindness is what will bury your party one of these days.
And when it happens, no doubt it’ll take many years to change your message enough for people to be convinced you actually give a shit about anything but holding on to what you’ve got while finding ways to greedily grasp for yet more power and money at the expense of everyone and everything else.

Aside from the sweeping generalities of this post (which guarantee no real debate will be had, simply another fistfight), there’s also one big logic hole: In talking about being “moderate” you’re implying that Bush and Co are moderate as well, which they are most clearly not. Neocons are anything but “moderate” or “mainstream.” They may be popular (although that seems to be slipping these days), but implying that people will die unless you’re re-elected is hardly a moderate stance. Nor is attacking a country that is at best very peripherally connected to the 9/11 attacks.
I’m tired of hearing how the Left is all radicals and wackos and how they have nothing to offer America. Just because you can scare the voters into putting you back in office doesn’t make you right, no matter how smug you act about it. Popularity also doesn’t mean you’re right. It also doesn’t mean the other side is wrong or stupid or crazy or unworthy of attention.
Ah, but wouldn’t it be so wonderful if we did have a one-party system like the one RealDebate seems to be slavering over? We wouldn’t have to struggle over choices anymore … no more worrying about discerning between one candidate or another, no more struggling over whether to fight a war or not (since protest would be outlawed), no more trying to decide which church to go to (since there would only be one)…. Sounds likes paradise to me.

Be careful what you wish for, RealDebate (if that is in fact your RealName).

Sleemoth. Do you really fear Neocons breaking down your door so much that you need a shotgun?

Come on now. I am suggesting in this post that Pat Roberson and An Coulter are out there on the right.

I am also saying that thinking persons like Cindy Sheehan or Howard Dean are in the mainstream is equally out there so to speak.

All I am seeing here is blow back on the right, blow back on the right and more blow back on the right.

Let us all get a bit more civil and move to areas we can agree on and get the debate more civil.

This column was written in the mode of advice. If my advice is silly, so be it, but it was intended to bring in the most extreme portions of the parties for the betterment of all of us.

If people want to think people like Cindy Sheehan are mainstream, so be it. If tha is the case the next election is already over.

Adrienne nails it:

“You know what’s really going to bury the Republican’s?
The fact that they obviously don’t care about the average people of this country.

Look at the other columns in this blog. The writers in the other two have been continually worrying and fretting over the humanitarian crisis that is Katrina — but the writers of the Right haven’t written a SINGLE ARTICLE yet.”

—Adrienne for President!

If George and his band of thieves had any real desire to help America they wouldn’t be trying so hard to bankrupt the country. The agenda of the Republicans has and may always be that only big business and the rich have the right to guide America. Reducing government programs and putting them in the hands of business to increase the wealth and power of a select few has been what they have worked at and now they are coming closer than ever before. Multi-trillion dollar debt, Halliburton, Bechtal, Oil Companies have been ripping us off at an alarming rate and bringing their aristocratic agenda much closer. The Republicans certainly chose the right man for the job. Every company that Bush has ever run he ran right into the ground. Now America is suffering the exact same fate. As for getting a gun to protect self and family, look what is happening in New Orleans with looting, murder, rape. Where is the governement now when we actually need them. On vacation telling us everything will be alright. Sure, given enough time everything works out in the end. But, who wants to suffer for years before that when it was unnecessary? I will also be getting a firearm. The time has come for all Americans to be fully armed to protect what is ours and save our country from the coming chaos.

The partisanship in this country is out of hand.

We need a peace agreement. Something like Democrats to quit criticizing the Bush Admin and in exchange the Bush Admin stops screwing everything they do up.

i think its clear that once people suffering from this tragedy start trying to claim bankruptcy and find they can’t because the republican congress and president passed the bankruptcy reform bill which benefits only corporations and screws average americans… once they find that out…..

duck and cover.

“—Adrienne for President!”

:^D Ha! Thanks Magoo!

Real Debate:

What surprises me is the level of wacked out comments you have received from such a tame, rational, and obvious deduction.

All the name calling is Politics As Usual. So what. But, at least if we are going to call each other names and try to defame the other side (whichever) let’s at least stick to the TRUTH. Both sides lie, but I believe that the Democrats lie less often because we (DEMS) actually have a conscience. If Repbulicans actually had God and Jesus on their side (as if God chooses sides!) they would not lie, cheat, steal, wage war as they do. Looking for a reason why God speaks to us. Well, look at the failures of Bush. Maybe God has sent us these messages and we still refuse to listen. What do we all need, a telegram?

tatoo49:

Democrats lie just as often, just not as convincingly — which is the real reason they have trouble getting elected.

Reading the rehtoric on this sight makes me physically ill. There is such a narrow gap between the Deomcrats and the Republicans. We need real change, it is simply not going to happen without a viable third party. We had a choice of dumb and dumber in the last election. Stop towing the party line and start thinking for yourselves.

The comments of Sleemoth (“Republicans will continue to win the presidency because they’ve successfully rigged the election in their favor”) and Adrienne (discussing Republican lack of concern and using an example of people caring more about thier belongings than people as a Republican trait) are examples of what hurts the Democratic party. To the degree that these comments are indicative of how the “left” thinks, it simply shows their inability to recognize reality.

In Sleemoth’s mind, any Republican success is due to cheating. This kind of conspiracy theory thinking is indicative of the inability to think clearly.

In Adrienne’s commentary, any negative attribute displayed by a person (regardless of their political affiliation—remember that her example did not show what the people were) is indicative of Republicans. To so loathe a wide group of people, and to so blithely paint them with such a broad brush simply borders on ignorance and hate.

Democrats have been losing elections because they have been unable to articulate enough other than their hatred for Bush. This is enough to inflame their base, but not to win elections. Nor is it good for the country, since it increases polarization.

I’d hope that such comments and opinions are NOT representative of the greater portion of the Democratic party. But if they are, they will be among the chief reasons the Democratic party does not rise from the ashes.

I couldn’t even get through all these posts.
Blues will do NO BETTER than Reds if they regain power.
Both sides have the ‘diehards’ who hate the other side and would prefer to stir up trouble rather than find solutions.
The media mostly airs those who are disruptive and not productive.
The smartest move we Americans can make is to get them ALL out of there!
TERM LIMITS!
No more millionaire politicians!
No more ‘special interests’ first!
Cut down on the lobbying!
Trim the pork!
Stop electing people who have ‘a name’. Look how many of our politicians are of families that have been in office for generations. They are ALL related!

Real Debate -

Civility is a fragment of what it once was, in the political sense.

There’s so much rage in this country. People vent a huge amount of it in places like this blog. But when I’m out in public - at work, shopping, etc. - I see how people hide it so well. I do too. There’s all this rage boiling below the surface. I cope with it like everyone else - exercise, hobbies, relaxation. But in the past few years it seems like the rage is getting the better of me - and lots of other people too. When will it end?

Why can’t there be dialog - face to face dialog? People are so afraid of talking politics face to face. But before the age of blogs, that was the norm. We’re too insulated now.

People need to see how politics effects others - really see it. We’re all so good at pontificating in the comfort of our homes. I for one am going to quit this blog and most others. All I see is more and more breakdown of civility. It hurts too much to continue.

jbod:
“In Adrienne’s commentary, any negative attribute displayed by a person (regardless of their political affiliation—remember that her example did not show what the people were) is indicative of Republicans. To so loathe a wide group of people, and to so blithely paint them with such a broad brush simply borders on ignorance and hate.”

You are dead wrong, joe. I said the fact that not a single one of the Republican writers on this blog has been concerned or horrified enough to write down their thoughts about what’s happening is what reminded me of that CNN segment I saw yesterday. That is what I feel demonstrates something about the people who belong to the party, not what party the people who owned those SUV’s belonged to.

Adrienne:

Here is what you wrote, verbatim:

“So many of our fellow Americans are dead and still dying, people are dehydrating and getting sicker and sicker, and you’re more concerned about whether the Republicans will win the next goddamn next election. This only points up how completely fucked up your priorities are, and how out of whack your mindset truly is.

This reminds me of something I saw on CNN last night….”

So you talk about people sick and dying, you recall the sad story in NO, and all that relates to Republicans, along with the fact that there are no headlines about Katrina on the Red column. MUUUUUCH clearer now….thanks.

Watch the columns for a while. The blue column always has more articles in it. Does this indicate that “blues” care more?? Or does it indicate that “blues” have more to say? Or does it indicate that “blues” complain more?

It could be any of those, or many others. The point is that you don’t know, but are still willing to make conclusions anyway.

You can take multiple facts and still reach the wrong conclusion. Reaching a conclusion from merely ONE fact (no Katrina articles in the red column) is simply a recipe for disaster—the chances of being wrong are really really high. But that doesn’t seem to stopyou from continuing to make conclusions even without much in the way of factual information.

I’ll assert again: If indicative of Democratic thought, this will lead the Dems lower and lower, since those who follow this path lose credibility.

Somewhere down the line America took a wrong turn. Politeness, civility, respect all have degraded to the point of being, for all practical purposes, gone. The way we raised our children or were raised ourselves? Experts telling us how we should live our lives and what is right and wrong? Political Correctness? Greed?

We no longer wish to talk to each other we just want to talk AT each other. We all want everyone else to be just like us. None of us want real differences of opinion, just cookie cutter agreement. Bullshit. Differences are necessary and good for everyone even if we don’t agree at that time.

One of the problems with this though is, IMO, that the Republicans are Conservatives. Conservatives are by definition those that fight change, want to keep the status quo. Too bad that the status that they want to keep is only the rich have the right to rule and screw the rest of us. Democrats, again IMO, want to share everything with everyone. Bang, there we go head to head.

What we all should be fighting for is the return of the ideal of America. Home of Freedom. FREE Speech, FREEDOM of and from religion, FREEDOM to choose without fear of Government intervention unless it is destructive to my neighbor or the country. The last thing we need are more laws. We need to remove many from the huge books of laws we already ignore, except for special circumstances.

We need both sides of the discussion. No single party should rule. Neither is absolutely correct. Checks and Balances.

As for families of politicians, well Americans love the idea of Royalty. We see it in politics, entertainment, law enforcement. Keep everything in the family, at all costs. Bah.

We need a third party, but I am afraid that it may never happen. A new party seems to be always a splinter off the Democratic Party, which then just strengthens the opposition. Where do we go from here?

Agree with Adrienne. Could there be a less relevant topic today than Coulter and Robertson v Dean??? Here’s the answer from a Liberal NYC Democrat who lives in Houston: WHO CARES!?!?

You want to make a difference in America today? Help out - NOW.

Send some money to the Red Cross. If you live in Texas, go help at a shelter or a food bank (like we are doing in Baton Rouge, Houston, Dallas, Austin and San Antonio). I’ll say this for all the religious organizations in Houston - everyone is just rolling up their sleeves and getting to work. To add to the insanity, volunteers going to the Astrodome are under armed guard because of assaults on THEM!

Help people in Mississippi. DO SOMETHING!

If you put partisanship aside for five minutes, you’ll notice all the people just trying to dig out.

We can point fingers later - I promise you, there will be plenty of time.

I watched the towers go down in the city I love and then we rolled up our sleeves and just got to work and accepted help from Blues and Reds - from anyone who cared.

I’m glad blogs weren’t as popular 4 years ago.

Just stop. Please. For a little while.

RealDebate - this is your RealMoment. NOW.

What are you going to do with it???

“You can take multiple facts and still reach the wrong conclusion. Reaching a conclusion from merely ONE fact (no Katrina articles in the red column) is simply a recipe for disaster—the chances of being wrong are really really high. But that doesn’t seem to stopyou from continuing to make conclusions even without much in the way of factual information.”

You’re missing the point completely. In my view, people on the right need to start caring enough to start calling for RESULTS from your President and your Majority in Congress.
Go read Stephen’s article “The Answer Is How High” — he’s getting right to the point in that one. Results. Accountability.
The thing is, all I see is you guys still defending the president instead of demanding those results, or claiming that it’s not fair to be partisan in this kind of disaster, which is really only true up to a certain point — because they’re in charge of everything at this very moment — and are doing a really shitty job for We the People.
For once I’d like to see you put your priorities in order and show some honest disappointment that your party isn’t getting it’s act together and acting responsibly. If your hearts are in the right place, show us that you care — start holding them accountable.
Remember your president won by telling people that he’d make the country “Safer”.
Do you feel safer right now? Do think he is doing a good job with this disaster?
What would you be saying right now if Clinton was in office?
Be HONEST, and show us that you CARE about people even more than you do about winning elections.
Then maybe the Left can start a dialogue with the Right that isn’t so filled with impatience and complete outrage.

I’ll assert again: If indicative of Democratic thought, this will lead the Dems lower and lower, since those who follow this path lose credibility.

Careful, jbod; you’re within a nonce of doing exactly what you’re accusing Adrienne of doing. Putting the “If” in there only saves you from comitting the same fallacy. You know as well as I that the terms “Democrat” and “Republican” are too narrow for anyone who posts here.

The question should be not so much why the Democrats will lose next time, but why the Republicans think they can keep winning with a track record like this. The leadership’s been squeezing blood from a stone for the past few elections and it’s beginning to get all over their hands.

As much as I abhor firearms, I’m seriously considering buying a shotgun. I’m afraid it’s the only way I can protect myself and my family from the insanity of the neocons.

Amen. I’m buying my first gun soon too.

RealDebate,

“This column was written in the mode of advice.”

Why on earth would the Republicans assume that the Dems would want, or need your advice?

Elections are a crap shoot at best, and if you don’t belive that, just ask Dewey.
You make assumptions based on the arrogance that your message is perfect, that all is going well and all is as it should be.

Here’s some advice for you.

Don’t count your votes before they hatch.

Adrienne, I think JBOD is right. The absence of Katrina articles here, is indicative of nothing that can be ascertained. The explanation could be as simple as work hours amongst writers here along with the extra load of their volunteering to help with Red Cross and Salvation Army, or any number of other perfectly acceptatble and defensible reasons, not that anyone in this red column should have to defend when and what they write about. They shouldn’t. Every writer here is a volunteer with real lives away from their keyboards.

I haven’t published an article in the center column because I poured 14 hours of writing one for another publisher. JBOD is right about what it means. Nothing that you or anyone else here is capable of assessing.

The left will win again for the simple reason that the right is utterly and abominably inept and ruinous to the nation at the national level.

Reading the rehtoric on this sight makes me physically ill. There is such a narrow gap between the Deomcrats and the Republicans. We need real change, it is simply not going to happen without a viable third party. We had a choice of dumb and dumber in the last election. Stop towing the party line and start thinking for yourselves. -Posted by: Scott at September 2, 2005 11:50 AM

Yay! A voice of reason! Trouble is it seems most today cannot think for themselves but are only able to spew some party line.. parties controlled by big business (both!) and using focused interest groups to divide the people and garner votes. Only a third party will be abel to rip the control of our government away from big business and give it back to the people… who sans the party puppeteers i think are reasonable intelligent hard working people with the desire and ability to cone up with acceptable compromises without having to start a revolutioin. At this point however, thanks to the political parties acquiesence to big businees, we are no longer one nation. Time will tell if the people will have enough backbone left to cut the party line/big business puppet strings

Civility is a fragment of what it once was, in the political sense.

There’s so much rage in this country. People vent a huge amount of it in places like this blog. But when I’m out in public - at work, shopping, etc. - I see how people hide it so well. I do too. There’s all this rage boiling below the surface. I cope with it like everyone else - exercise, hobbies, relaxation. But in the past few years it seems like the rage is getting the better of me - and lots of other people too. When will it end?

Why can’t there be dialog - face to face dialog? People are so afraid of talking politics face to face. But before the age of blogs, that was the norm. We’re too insulated now.

People need to see how politics effects others - really see it. We’re all so good at pontificating in the comfort of our homes. I for one am going to quit this blog and most others. All I see is more and more breakdown of civility. It hurts too much to continue.

-Posted by: Sleemoth at September 2, 2005 12:00 PM

i agree. And i think horrors like we are now experiencing on the gulf coast will become more frequent as the rich continue to steal from the nation’s workers sending their investments and accounts out of the country, leaving in their wake the great american meltdown, government, infrastructure, the lot. The poor and middle class are increasingly oppressed and the numbers of the desperate are fast increasing. The corporations are multinational with no loyalty to America or its people. They will use us up and walk away without a second thought to the next nation foaming at the mouth with greed for their capital.

The Democrats lost the last few elections not because their idology was wrong, or because their message wasn’t clear. They lost for one reason and one reason only - because the Republican Slime machine was better than the Democratic Slime machine.

The problem is that both parties are now convinced that negative campaigning works. So I’ve decided to vote against ANYONE - from EITHER party - who slimes their opponent. If EVERYONE did that, we could reclaim out country and force the politicians to talk about where they stand on the issues, not what’s wrong with their opponents.

JUST SAY NO TO SLIME.

Views, you have raised an extremely important issue on the horizon. The economic ripple effects of Katrina is going to create a lot of business winners and a lot of family bankruptcies. Unemployment has just skyrocketed in the affected states, and many small businesses which relied on the consumption power of residents and businesses in the affected areas are also going to be bellying up.

One can only hope, the Republican Congress will stay the new bankruptcy reform provisions at least for those in the affected areas, and businesses whose customer base has just been devastated.

I was listening to Ed Schultz yesterday. I’m a rightie, and I admit I love Ed’s show. Why? He is entertaining.

What I was struck by was the callers yesterday, everyone just attacked Bush for Katrina relief, and absolutely everyone did so.

I would add that Mrs RealDebate and I went over our budget closely and wrote a check for as much as we possibly could and I delivered it to the local Salvation Army yesterday morning. Two people hit me up for a couple of bucks on the way in the door, I helped them as well.

I mention this for a reason. People care, righties care we still do not understad the enormity of what is going on down there. The logistical situations are changing by the minute.

Could the help of come faster, of course it could of, and should of. When we know more and if there is just cause to be critical of the President, I will be the first one to sound off.

I encourage you all to dig deep, give what you can and do whatever you can to help.

It is the Democrats I hear making the storm a political issue. In my home state of Wisconsin our Governor came out yesterday to blast the President on gas prices, while at the same time said Governor (A Democrat) is turning a blind eye to everyting he could do to lower said prices. (The Governor did dispatch 500 Wisconsin National Guard troops to help and deserves praise for that)

I am new to WatchBlog, I tend not to be reactionary and quick to post on many issues, prefering to wait until more of an issue is vetted out before offering rank speculation. This piece was opinion, and speaks to tone and who the left sees as mainstream. On my own blog for example, I waited three weeks before discussing Able Danger.

ElliotBay. Please define slime for me.

Is pointing out falsehoods slime? Is presenting opinion slime?

This is not tounge in cheek, i really want to know.

Is pointing out falsehoods slime? Is presenting opinion slime?

No, but character assassination sure is.

“As much as I abhor firearms, I’m seriously considering buying a shotgun. I’m afraid it’s the only way I can protect myself and my family from the insanity of the neocons.

Amen. I’m buying my first gun soon too.”

Better late than never I guess. We’ve been getting firearms to protect ourselves and family from the insanity of the liberals for about 20 years now.
Too bad the innocent people in the affected areas will have a waiting period before they can go out and buy a firearm to defend themselves.
While we’re at it, don’t bother buying yourself a gun. Thanks to the insanity of the liberals, the govt knows and will know who buys them and can come and get them whenever they want.
But yet, its the evil right that we should be afraid of.

David:
“The absence of Katrina articles here, is indicative of nothing that can be ascertained. The explanation could be as simple as work hours amongst writers here along with the extra load of their volunteering to help with Red Cross and Salvation Army, or any number of other perfectly acceptatble and defensible reasons, not that anyone in this red column should have to defend when and what they write about. They shouldn’t. Every writer here is a volunteer with real lives away from their keyboards.”

You have a good point. Still, it’s been five days since the hurricane, and it’s such a major event, I have to admit that every day since I’ve been expecting at least one article about it to show up in this column.
I often get this feeling about current events with the Red Column — as though they avoid bringing up topics in their own column, but go into heavy attack mode in the others in an attempt at damage control for their party.

Sliming is making your opponent’s “character” and personal life the issue, intead of discussing your own stand on the issues. Here are some victims of slime:

Everyone,

To help RealDebate with some specifici examples:

Example #1. Nancy Pelosi commented on the Kelo case that the Supreme Court’s Decision is tantamount to a proclamation from God!! Not exactly the kind of leader I want, one who despite her position clearly does not understand how the Supreme Court works. Not a leader most Americans want.

Example #2. Democratic support for a gay marriage right. Despite the efforts of the California state Senate, there is solid evidence that most americans do not support such a right, particularly one granted by the courts. Evidence: See the election returns from 2004 on the gay marriage amendments in the state.

Example #3. Lack of a Democratic platform. Right now the only Democratic positions I have seen on major issues, i.e. Social Security, education, health care, Iraq War, even the mentioned bankruptcy reform (the commenters position on that issue is clearly misinformed), every position espoused by the national Democrats is just anti-Bush message along the lines of “we have no ideas, but we know Bush’s are wrong for the country.”

RealDebate may be right that Dems won’t win a national election, but not because the Dems are too liberal, but for two other real reasons.

First, Democrats are not positing real ideas. I would like to see real ideas being offered. I can’t say I will agree with any, but I might if given the opportunity to examine some. You cannot win an election being the anti-other guy. You need ideas of your own—and I see none. Without orginial ideas, you can’t get votes.

Second, the Democrats might be able to win the Presidency—maybe, if they have a good candidate—which by the way is not Hilary Clinton, way too polarizing a figure—despite recent efforts to moderate. A presidential win is a possiblity, but there will be no sweeping changes in Congress. Here is the reason—inertia.

Most poeple will tell you they don’t like Congress. Congress has even had approval ratings lower than the President months before the election. These approval ratings have been so dismal you would expect a wholesale change in Congress. But you would be wrong. Most people might hate Congress, but they love their Congressman and they keep getting re-elected. There is a 98 or 99% incumbent re-election rate.

Finally, a couple of people mentioned current issues, i.e. Katrina, gas prices,etc. Unless gas prices stay high between now and the election, most people are going to forget them after all, we are still 13 months from the election. People will not blame Congress or the GOP in general for Katrina—how can they? Will they blast teh response, sure—but that is an agency unprepared. Will someone mention cuts for the Army Corps of Engineers, maybe, but those funds have been cut since the Nixon years, Bush is not the first to cut their funding.

Simply put, it is easy to think that people will run to the Dems in 2006. But aside from the events on the past week, the country is in pretty good shape—a fact that most people understand in their gut. People don’t just vote their pocket book, they vote their gut and for most Americans their gut tells them that for the most part things are OK.

RealDebate may have been rash in his statements, but the sentiment is not all that wrong.

RealDebate:

You use typical Republican logic: Somebody named Mark Green, who supposedly is a liberal, compared a couple of far-out Republicans with another supposedly far-out liberal person. Therefore, liberals will lose the next election.

This makes no sense.

I am a liberal and proud to be one. A liberal is someone who is interested in improving the lot of all citizens, not only the rich.

Yes, there is a debate in the Democratic Party between liberals and so-called moderates. We’ll settle the debate in our own way.

You are free with advice to Democraats. Do you really want to help us? Or divide us? Why on earth should a Democrat accept the advice of a Republican?

Adrienne:

Here is what I wrote in another thread in response to Katrina:

“So far, I don’t think its been handled well. I look for improvement. I’m NOT saying that people should be happy or satisfied—simply that creating partisan issues now will do more harm than good. There will be time later for such things.
Posted by joebagodonuts at September 2, 2005 10:26 AM

In all honesty, its too soon to assess how the govt is handling things. At this point, it appears they havent handled it well. It may be that they are doing the best possible job under dire circumstances. From what I see so far, it appears they could do better, but the bottom line is it is just too soon to fully know.

One thing that concerns me a lot is how quickly people jump to conclusions these days. The Iraq war was a “bloody quagmire” before it even started. Jessica Lynch was a heroine, a bum, a victim…..simply because people jumped to conclusions. The Oklahoma City bombing was the result of middle eastern terrorists….until we found evidence that showed McVeigh did it.

It is my opinion that comments like yours and sleemoths prevent the civil discourse that you say you want. I don’t know how to show you what’s in my heart, since I haven’t seen much evidence of you wanting to listen.

I understand that we disagree philosophically on the political stage. That does not mean I do not care, nor does it mean you care more. Perhaps if you knew the number of letters I’ve written to Congressmen, Senators and other govt officials, you’d not lump me in with your broad brush view.

I can say there are Bush policies that I agree with (Iraq, stem cells) and Bush policies that I disagree with (Big pharma, overspending). I can say the same thing about Bill Clinton—-I liked his Balkan policy generally and like Operation Desert Fox, but disagreed with many of his other policies.

You’ve written in WB that you cant find a single thing good about Bush. If you truly mean that, then perhaps you are simply a partisan.

“Why on earth should a Democrat accept the advice of a Republican?”

Because alot of today’s Republican’s USED to be Democrats.

Actually, liberal thinking will win in the end. Every major metropolitan region in the country today is blue as blue can be. It’s a byproduct of living life in congested areas with extensive cultural diversity. As the population of the US grows, so will liberalism. In the end, conservatism will be limited to the nutjobs, and the small populations of people in farm country.

Conservatives’ blatent displays of how completely ineffective they govern could hasten the transition, but regardless, population increase will inevitably push the minds of the masses towards tolerance for others and recognition that we are all interdependant. This decade, perhaps the next, are the dying throes of the conservative movement in America.

Funny - Cindy Sheehan is many things until you point out how insane she is - then suddenly she is just an individual person with a gripe.

Someone had better let the media know that!

Adrienne -

Katrina is not a political issue and I don’t see how turning it into one (like Robert Kennedy Jr. is trying to do) helps the average person. Does quibbling over it show the kind of unity one would expect in response to an event like this.

You are the textbook liberal - obsess with the knowledge that you can’t (especially if it weren’t for those pesky Republicans!) save the world and then criticize others for not obsessing with you.

Does everyone have to be on record saying that Katrina is a bad thing and that aid needs to be provided?

jbod:
“It is my opinion that comments like yours and sleemoths prevent the civil discourse that you say you want.”

I apologize.
Believe it or not, I do realize that I’ve often got quite a sharp tongue. I learned to be like that growing up surrounded by old money as a middle class kid — words became a weapon I could use to cut down people (overwhelmingly Republican) who acted entitled and superior down to my own size. That being said, please understand that most of what I write here isn’t intended to be personal attacks on individual Republicans, but on the general mindset that I often receive through multiple postings that I read here.
I also realize that I sometimes have a hot temper — and when I enter WB and come across an article bearing this ones uncivil title (especially when people are dying in America because of incompetence that clearly starts at the top of our government) it was bound to bring out the worst sort of incivility in me.

“I don’t know how to show you what’s in my heart, since I haven’t seen much evidence of you wanting to listen.”

Actually I don’t know why you would say this Joe, since you and I have had several discussions recently — and I did in fact listen and respond to most of what you wrote then. In fact, we even thanked each other for the exchange, remember?

“I understand that we disagree philosophically on the political stage. That does not mean I do not care, nor does it mean you care more. Perhaps if you knew the number of letters I’ve written to Congressmen, Senators and other govt officials, you’d not lump me in with your broad brush view.”

Like I said, with this kind of article, I will always aim my darts in the Republicans general direction, not at any individual.

“You’ve written in WB that you cant find a single thing good about Bush. If you truly mean that, then perhaps you are simply a partisan.”

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: On a personal level, I’ve got no problem with most average garden variety Republican’s — it’s the incompetence of the Neocon Republicans paired with their nasty attitude toward anyone who doesn’t buy into their crazy agendas that I honestly I cannot abide. If they weren’t so incompetent, and if some of the people in your party would at least begin to admit it, my sharp tongued, hot tempered rhetoric would never reach this sort of level. Honestly.

Katrina is not a political issue

ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT! So deep I could puke. We have a SERIOUS problem. OUR GOVERNMENT HAS to handle this NOW. RIGHT NOW. If they can’t handle it, it’s a VERY SERIOUS POLITICAL ISSUE.

DISGUSTING. Absolutely disgusting.

From today’s NYT

Hurricanes come in two waves. First comes the rainstorm, and then comes what the historian John Barry calls the “human storm” - the recriminations, the political conflict and the battle over compensation. Floods wash away the surface of society, the settled way things have been done. They expose the underlying power structures, the injustices, the patterns of corruption and the unacknowledged inequalities. When you look back over the meteorological turbulence in this nation’s history, it’s striking how often political turbulence followed.

In 1889 in Pennsylvania, a great flood washed away much of Johnstown. The water’s crushing destruction sounded to one person like a “lot of horses grinding oats.” Witnesses watched hundreds of people trapped on a burning bridge, forced to choose between burning to death or throwing themselves into the churning waters to drown.

The flood was so abnormal that the country seemed to have trouble grasping what had happened. The national media were filled with wild exaggerations and fabrications: stories of rivers dammed with corpses, of children who died while playing ring-around-the-rosy and who were found with their hands still clasped and with smiles still on their faces.

Prejudices were let loose. Hungarians then were akin to today’s illegal Mexican immigrants - hard-working people who took jobs no one else wanted. Newspapers carried accounts of gangs of Hungarian men cutting off dead women’s fingers to steal their rings. “Drunken Hungarians, Dancing, Singing, Cursing and Fighting Amid the Ruins” a New York Herald headline blared.

Then, as David McCullough notes in “The Johnstown Flood,” public fury turned on the Pittsburgh millionaires whose club’s fishing pond had emptied on the town. The Chicago Herald depicted the millionaires as Roman aristocrats, seeking pleasure while the poor died like beasts in the Coliseum.

Even before the flood, public resentment was building against the newly rich industrialists. Protests were growing against the trusts, against industrialization and against the new concentrations of wealth. The Johnstown flood crystallized popular anger, for the fishing club was indeed partly to blame. Public reaction to the disaster helped set the stage for the progressive movement and the trust-busting that was to come.

In 1900, another great storm hit the U.S., killing over 6,000 people in Galveston, Tex. The storm exposed racial animosities, for this time stories (equally false) swept through the press accusing blacks of cutting off the fingers of corpses to steal wedding rings. The devastation ended Galveston’s chance to beat out Houston as Texas’ leading port.

Then in 1927, the great Mississippi flood rumbled down upon New Orleans. As Barry writes in his account, “Rising Tide,” the disaster ripped the veil off the genteel, feudal relations between whites and blacks, and revealed the festering iniquities. Blacks were rounded up into work camps and held by armed guards. They were prevented from leaving as the waters rose. A steamer, the Capitol, played “Bye Bye Blackbird” as it sailed away. The racist violence that followed the floods helped persuade many blacks to move north.

Civic leaders intentionally flooded poor and middle-class areas to ease the water’s pressure on the city, and then reneged on promises to compensate those whose homes were destroyed. That helped fuel the populist anger that led to Huey Long’s success. Across the country people demanded that the federal government get involved in disaster relief, helping to set the stage for the New Deal. The local civic elite turned insular and reactionary, and New Orleans never really recovered its preflood vibrancy.

We’d like to think that the stories of hurricanes and floods are always stories of people rallying together to give aid and comfort. And, indeed, each of America’s great floods has prompted a popular response both generous and inspiring. But floods are also civic examinations. Amid all the stories that recur with every disaster - tales of sudden death and miraculous survival, the displacement and the disease - there is also the testing.

Civic arrangements work or they fail. Leaders are found worthy or wanting. What’s happening in New Orleans and Mississippi today is a human tragedy. But take a close look at the people you see wandering, devastated, around New Orleans: they are predominantly black and poor. The political disturbances are still to come.

But take a close look at the people you see wandering, devastated, around New Orleans: they are predominantly black and poor.

Neither the haves or the have-mores. Not part of Bush’s base. Still NO EXCUSE.

Our government’s response to this is REPUGNANT.

Taylor -

Fine - what is the political issue?

Republican writers have been accused of ignoring Katrina. I would submit (from my own perspective anyway) that right now the most important thing is to SAVE LIVES and deal with the immediate tragedy. That is being done in the best manner possible. I, like most, are simply watching and hoping. So what exactly am I supposed to write that isn’t shared by most sane people? I know, there isn’t enough ‘Bush is letting people die!’ columns, right?

Get over it. Donate or contribute something to the relief effort and when the immediate safety of the people is met THEN start playing the blame game.

You guys did the same thing two days after the tsunami hit. Where’s Bush and his red cape flying in to save the day?

So again, what is the political issue here?

#2 from today’s NYT, to answer why it’s not too early to speak of the causes of the disaster after the disaster

September 2, 2005
A Can’t-Do Government

Before 9/11 the Federal Emergency Management Agency listed the three most likely catastrophic disasters facing America: a terrorist attack on New York, a major earthquake in San Francisco and a hurricane strike on New Orleans. “The New Orleans hurricane scenario,” The Houston Chronicle wrote in December 2001, “may be the deadliest of all.” It described a potential catastrophe very much like the one now happening.
So why were New Orleans and the nation so unprepared? After 9/11, hard questions were deferred in the name of national unity, then buried under a thick coat of whitewash. This time, we need accountability.

First question: Why have aid and security taken so long to arrive? Katrina hit five days ago - and it was already clear by last Friday that Katrina could do immense damage along the Gulf Coast. Yet the response you’d expect from an advanced country never happened. Thousands of Americans are dead or dying, not because they refused to evacuate, but because they were too poor or too sick to get out without help - and help wasn’t provided. Many have yet to receive any help at all.

There will and should be many questions about the response of state and local governments; in particular, couldn’t they have done more to help the poor and sick escape? But the evidence points, above all, to a stunning lack of both preparation and urgency in the federal government’s response.

Even military resources in the right place weren’t ordered into action. “On Wednesday,” said an editorial in The Sun Herald in Biloxi, Miss., “reporters listening to horrific stories of death and survival at the Biloxi Junior High School shelter looked north across Irish Hill Road and saw Air Force personnel playing basketball and performing calisthenics. Playing basketball and performing calisthenics!”

Maybe administration officials believed that the local National Guard could keep order and deliver relief. But many members of the National Guard and much of its equipment - including high-water vehicles - are in Iraq. “The National Guard needs that equipment back home to support the homeland security mission,” a Louisiana Guard officer told reporters several weeks ago.

Second question: Why wasn’t more preventive action taken? After 2003 the Army Corps of Engineers sharply slowed its flood-control work, including work on sinking levees. “The corps,” an Editor and Publisher article says, citing a series of articles in The Times-Picayune in New Orleans, “never tried to hide the fact that the spending pressures of the war in Iraq, as well as homeland security - coming at the same time as federal tax cuts - was the reason for the strain.”
In 2002 the corps’ chief resigned, reportedly under threat of being fired, after he criticized the administration’s proposed cuts in the corps’ budget, including flood-control spending.

Third question: Did the Bush administration destroy FEMA’s effectiveness? The administration has, by all accounts, treated the emergency management agency like an unwanted stepchild, leading to a mass exodus of experienced professionals.

Last year James Lee Witt, who won bipartisan praise for his leadership of the agency during the Clinton years, said at a Congressional hearing: “I am extremely concerned that the ability of our nation to prepare for and respond to disasters has been sharply eroded. I hear from emergency managers, local and state leaders, and first responders nearly every day that the FEMA they knew and worked well with has now disappeared.”

I don’t think this is a simple tale of incompetence. The reason the military wasn’t rushed in to help along the Gulf Coast is, I believe, the same reason nothing was done to stop looting after the fall of Baghdad. Flood control was neglected for the same reason our troops in Iraq didn’t get adequate armor.

At a fundamental level, I’d argue, our current leaders just aren’t serious about some of the essential functions of government. They like waging war, but they don’t like providing security, rescuing those in need or spending on preventive measures. And they never, ever ask for shared sacrifice.

Yesterday Mr. Bush made an utterly fantastic claim: that nobody expected the breach of the levees. In fact, there had been repeated warnings about exactly that risk.

So America, once famous for its can-do attitude, now has a can’t-do government that makes excuses instead of doing its job. And while it makes those excuses, Americans are dying.

OttO,

I am doing my part. The challenge for me is the administration’s TOTAL DENIAL that it is the cause of any of the difficulties it is currently facing(sorry for shouting). It’s not enough for Bush to say that the federal response is “unacceptable”. The point is that the Bush administration CREATED many of the conditions that made it less able to respond but dislikes complaints in the midst of its own messes.

He didn’t cause the hurricane, but Michael Chertoff directing affected people to websites and 800 numbers on Tuesday is not “doing the best we can” - it’s incompetence and catastrophic poor judgment.

When this is all done, it is not unlikely that half of the fatalities will be a result of the aftermath of the storm - a failure of response so great as to border on criminal.

Governing a nation is not about “hard work” and “doing the best we can”. Governing leaders, including military ones, have never gotten away with catastrophic errors of judgment, particularly those that have led to massive loss of life.

I think the last free pass was JFK and the Bay of Pigs, and only because those were not Americans.

This isn’t a classroom, this is life. And in life, results are expected and demanded.

PLEASE ANSWER THIS ONE QUESTION: In any job in America, if you are “doing your best” and not getting it done, aren’t you usually shown the door or demoted?

Please tell the truth - George Bush’s “best effort” is not enough, good heart, but not capable.

Because the last person who should hide behind “hard work” and “doing my best” is the President of the United States.

“At a fundamental level, I’d argue, our current leaders just aren’t serious about some of the essential functions of government. They like waging war, but they don’t like providing security, rescuing those in need or spending on preventive measures.”

Uh, I don’t believe Blanco was for waging war anywhere.
Shouldn’t we at least let her do her job and then critique the way she handled it?
Using hind-sight to tear this poor woman apart isn’t fair. Give her a chance guys!

Yesterday Mr. Bush made an utterly fantastic claim: that nobody expected the breach of the levees. In fact, there had been repeated warnings about exactly that risk.

I think you misunderstood Mr. Bush.. when he says “nobody” what he really means is “nobody I listen to.” (Just like “Nobody thought there would be an attack on New York City,” and “Nobody thought the war would be difficult.” Next up: “Nobody thought global warming was an issue.”)

Adrienne:

My apologies: I wrote “”I don’t know how to show you what’s in my heart, since I haven’t seen much evidence of you wanting to listen.”

I had intended to alter that sentence to ” I don’t know how to show the left what’s in my heart, since I haven’t seen much evidence of the left wanting to listen.”

I’ve had many conversations where once I state that I’m conservative, people stereotype me and tehn assume they know what I think. They throw up strawman arguments and won’t even accept the logical answers that defeat the strawmen (ie; ” I never said what you say I did” or “the “fact” that you used simply isnt a fact and here’s why).

I apologize for not having corrected that sentence. Even as I read it, I knew it was directed at the left, but written towards you. It shows how imperfect my copyediting procedure is, especially when the phone rings in the middle of doing so.

Adrienne, I really do think you are viewing the Republican party through an imperfect lens. It doesnt make what you see unreal or untrue, but it certainly distorts it. I see some in the Republican party as you percieve them, but I dont see the party that way, anymore than I see the Dems as a group of Michael Moore clones.

I work hard to not let myself think that way, because its so damned easy to do. You hear Moore speak, you hear Alec Baldwin say another stupid thing, you hear Krugman on one of his rants, and it becomes easy to assume that they speak for the whole. They dont.

Hopefully, we can get closer to reality than we currently are. AGain, sorry for the slam on you.

RealDebate:

Your position seems typical of folks on both the right and left in that you seem to have the need for pointing out the extreme juxtaposition to a criticism of someone in your camp. The left brings up Coulter and Robertson and you bring up Cindy Sheehan and Michael Moore. I’d leave Ms. Sheehan alone as she’s not a professional raver, but have at it with Mr. Moore, Mark Seder, etc.

The problem here is that most people aren’t sitting on the extreme side of the fences in every position they hold. Even Mr. Dean whom you deride as a screamer is painted as a liberal extremist. He is most assuredly not an uber liberal. As governor of Vermont, he was pretty moderate in most things and downright conservative in others.

There are a lot of liberals and conservatives who see things similarly, but maybe with a touch of nuance that differentiates their positions. I for example am a Liberal Hawk and applauded the invasion of Afghanistan because I thought (and still do) that we need to hunt down Osama and his bunch until we have their heads on a spike. I think Iraq however has been a distraction on the War on Terror versus a front. We’d have been better served in my opinion of diverting the force to Sudan, Indonesia, additional concentration of troops in Afghanistan and Pakistan….

Actually Dennis, the standard of being a professional is to be paid. As such, Ms. Sheehan is most certainly that.

Gee you want some over the top rhetoric, catch this from Rhandi Rhodes of Air America.

This President is never gonna do the right thing. I think somewhere deep down inside him he takes a lot of joy about losing people, if he thinks they vote Democrat or if he thinks they’re poor, or if he thinks they’re in a blue state, whatever his reasons are not to rescue those people who are (planning?) for their safety.

To actually have the opinion that this President delights in the misery of others, come now she should be ashamed. And if you believe that as well, so should you be.

By the way, still waiting to hear from Rhandi Rhosed on her network ripping off almost 900K from kids and old people.

The “left” has lost it’s base. They are trying
to register felons and dead people to vote. I
really don’t blame them. It is pretty hard to
get a living person or a law abiding person to
vote for one of their anti-America, er progressive candydates. Howard Dean, cooooooool!

Ok, so she’s paid. Forgive me, lump her in the rest of the mouthpieces… Except, most of them haven’t lost a kid. I don’t like her message now either, as I think she’s been co-opted by other agendas. However, I’m less inclined to disapprove of her as I am a Rhandi Rhodes or Rush Limbaugh. These are seriously deluded people that I believe are in it more for the cash than the cause. My point, RealDebate is that if these types are all anyone ever talks about then we can kiss substantive debate on issues goodbye. We seemingly can’t get past the blather and the rhetoric on either side to think about what really should be done to improve things.

dennis

Wait — what’s this about Ms. Sheehan being paid? And Rhandi Rhodes stealing money from old people and children? Let’s see some links to back this stuff up.

All the Democrats seem to do is complain. I have not heard ONE reasonable answer to any problem that they think is there. They want to blame everything bad on Bush and give Gore credit for everything good like the Internet. I guess they can no fault anywhere on the net.

“AIR AMERICA”
Pride of the left. Endorsed by dead people and
felons all over the world! $$900,000$$ ???????
It was their money after they took it away from
little kids and old folks! Why should they give
it to someone who needs it? How then would all
3 of their listeners be able to hear the class
act they provide? Just because their crooks
you should not “discriminate”. Their leading
the charge to show the world its ok to be a crook
and a “progressive” er- moonbat at the same time!

Matt Johnston-

Regarding your examples:

Example #1: Good example of wrong wing tactics. Take something that ONE Democrat said, twist it (Pelosi was correct in saying that Supreme Court decisions are a lot like statements from God given how difficult they are to overturn), and use it as an excuse for criticizing ALL Democrats. Brilliant.

Example #2: Interesting point. I guess you’d agree that Dubyah should drop his plan to privatize Social Security since the majority of Americans are opposed to it, eh?

The wrong wing constantly excoriated President Clinton for doing “the popular thing”. But now you have the gall to criticize Democrats for NOT doing the popular thing?

Example #3: Now here’s a great example of the pot calling the kettle black, since the Republican platform for the last decade has consisted ENTIRELY of demolishing the accomplishments of the Democrats.

Someone has to fix the foulups!

So again, what is the political issue here?

Oh, I don’t know….. maybe that our nation’s leaders are incapable of handling this? I don’t care what party they are in, they all should be ashamed.

Get over it. Donate or contribute something to the relief effort and when the immediate safety of the people is met THEN start playing the blame game.

YOU get over it. I absolutely will not let our leaders be held unaccountable for this screwup.

Better start with the stupid mayor and govenor.

Pride of the left. Endorsed by dead people and
felons all over the world! $$900,000$$ ???????

Links, please. Evidence.

They are trying to register felons and dead people to vote.

Links, please. If you’re going to make judgments about groups of people without any evidence to back it up, could you do it on your own blog, please?

What? You live under a rock?
Google it. Do your own research.

NO

Jake,

It’s called proof.

Rocky

Google it. Do your own research

You think Rhandi Rhodes is over the top? I think Ann Coulter has her beat by a long way:

“I think a baseball bat is the most effective way [to talk to liberals] these days.” [10/6/04]

“I’m not blaming the Democrats for 9-11 alone. I’m blaming them also for the [USS] Cole bombing, for the embassy bombings, for 20 years of attacks that have not been stopped. ” [8/16/04]

“What the Democrats want to do is sell blacks out.” [10/25/04]

“[T]he [Democratic Party] platform is violating the Ten Commandments one by one.” [2/28/05]

“Al Gore is nuts” [6/14/04] and represents the “insane wing of the Democratic Party.” [6/4/04]

“[Clinton] raped a woman and molested interns in the White House.” [5/20/04]

“[Clinton] was a pathological liar, a sociopath, and felon.” [5/23/04]

“In this recurring nightmare of a presidency, we have a national debate about whether he ‘did it,’ even though all sentient people know he did. Otherwise there would be debates only about whether to impeach or assassinate.” [High Crimes and Misdemeanors: The Case Against Bill Clinton (Regnery, October 2002)]

“To expiate the pain of losing her firstborn son in the Iraq war, Cindy Sheehan decided to cheer herself up by engaging in Stalinist agitprop outside President Bush’s Crawford ranch. It’s the strangest method of grieving I’ve seen since Paul Wellstone’s funeral. Someone needs to teach these liberals how to mourn.”

Coulter has said more than once (including August 25th this year) that New Yorkers “would immediately surrender” to terrorists.

ElliottBay

Lets talk “Waco”

Arrogance is a popular aphrodisiac these days. The left frankly needs people like RealDebate who declare victory before the game has begun. They think it’s a very flattering stance. Try putting on a shirt Emperor, your embarrassing yourself.

Jake —

Just a friendly word of advice (and this ain’t just me talking): You won’t get any respect on this blog if you don’t tell us where you get the info for your asse