Republicans & Conservatives: Archives

The potential problem here, OttO, comes when the father of the baby is also the father of the young girl having the child.

On principle, I oppose abortion under most circumstances, but there are times when the parents are the last people who need to be informed. A decent law on parental notification should include provisions on that.

If such provisions were included, then I would agree more with you.

A high percentage of abused children who get pregnant are done by their Fathers.

Also. Abstinence does not work. Apparently, the Children who were taught Abstinence were so ignorant they never bothered to wear condoms. Result? Most got STD’s!!!!!

Teen age pregnancy should become the knowledge of the parent as soon as detected. Next, it should become the knowledge of an appropriate criminal and/or investigative group.

There are many reasons for a teenage girl to become pregnant, most of them not good. All too often a crime is involved which must be investigated for the obvious reasons and, for determining potential disease transmission.

For this to happen, a law must exist that permits (and requires) doctors to circumvent doctor-patient privelege.

Parents must not be allowed to “sweep this under the rug” as has been the case for centuries.

I honestly don’t care about the constitutionality of this in terms of rights to privacy or whatever else is involved. IMO this would be protecting a crime which is not the intent of the Constitutuion.

If they pass prop 73 in this state all it will do is increase the illegal sale of fake ID’s to pregnant teenagers.

Aldous
“Abstinence does not work”
If they are abstaining from intercourse then there is no pregnancy. Strange isn’t it. Abstinence means to don’t even try to go there.

Even if this law passes (which I doubt), it probably won’t hold up in the California courts, because it goes against the state’s constitution. You can’t change the state’s constitution with a simple referendum.

And if it passes, does that make the majority of voters in California “anti-choice extremists” or just sensible parents?

I would say senseible parent. I know people that are pro choice, but don’t like the idea of their 13 or 14 year-old daughter getting an abortion with out the knowledge or consent.

For instance, there is no situation that I can see where an agenda-driven organization knows what is better for my family and my children than I do.

That aint what the agenda-driven organizations or their supporters think. They think we’re to stupid to know what’s best for our families.

To oppose Prop 73 on these grounds simply indicates that a child should be able to defy thier upbringing and deny their parents involvement so they can be more easily manipulated and not have his or her judgements clouded by a families religious or moral views.

What? Raise your kids with religous or moral values? Why that would undermind the whole leftist movement.

I find it hard to believe that most parents want their children to have an abortion (or any other major medical procedure) or go through the trauma of an unplanned pregnancy without their knowledge and involvement.

If any do, they should have their children taken away from them.

Also, if my teenage daughter is pregnant, then I certainly want to know who participated in the act.

You got that right! There would be a marryin or a buryin. And if the guy is an adult it’ll be a buryin.

Their site states that while a parents top priority is protecting their children, most parents want their kids to have secret medical access and counseling. Come again?? Counseling in my family starts with me as the parent. PP may not like that, but guess what? I have (or at least should have) actual and direct responsibilities to deal with my children as I see fit, not as PP sees fit.

I HEAR YOU LOUD AND CLEAR!!! But again they think we’re to stupid to know how to raise our children and know what is best for them. After all don’t you know ‘it takes a villiage’ to raise children?

If a parent tries to raise their children with responsibility and abstinence in mind, these groups will be there to sell the idea that those parents are wrong.

Of coarse, their goal is to destroy the family.

The rape and/or murder of a child is the worst kind of crime there is. And abortion is the murder of a child. What makes it even worse is the child is completly innocent.

I have formed very strong opinions about this matter, the reasons for which will become apparent in a moment, and though California law does not pertain to me in the least, I feel it is important to explain my position on this matter. First, I have to explain why. I’m about to get very personal. I will use as few graphic details as possible to explain myself, but some will be necessary. For that I apologize up front.

When I was ten years old I was forcefully raped by another ten year old. I was very naive and under-educated at that time. To me, sex was something that happened between a mommy and a daddy to make a baby. The fact that kids could have it never occured to me. The fact that it could be forced on someone else never occured to me. I didn’t know the word rape and I didn’t have a concept for it either. I honestly thought that the boy who raped me had given me my period, and if that’s how it happened it’s no wonder nobody told me.

I was twelve before I learned what rape was and was able to identify it with my own experience. It was a painful process to realize that what I took as a necessary step towards growing up was really a crime, that the violation and the humiliation I felt was not unnatural or wrong, that it was the act itself that had been wrong. I had to talk to several friends before I had the guts to talk to my parents. Before long I was in counciling and my periodic bouts of depression were attributed to my first traumatic experience. I did not continue with counciling, because it was a painful process I preferred to avoid.

At the age of fourteen I thought I knew everything, or, as my mom has put it, I knew I knew everything. I watched a lot of t.v. and I knew the way to keep a boy’s attention was to have sex with him. I knew that dating an older boy was better than dating one your own age. I knew that dating a trouble-maker was what a “good” girl had to do in order to have fun. I knew all these things, and since I was a relatively young, good girl, I chose to date a guy who was older (17), had a history of making trouble and was very cute (since that was also very important). It took me a few months, but I worked up the nerve to intentionally have sex with him.

Now, me and my friend (who was also 14 and dating a 17 year old) knew that having sex at our age was against the law. Our boyfriends knew it, too. It’s called statutory rape, because we were deemed too young to make such a decision. Unfortunately, I knew I knew everything and I knew that having sex with my boyfriend would be great and that there was absolutely nothing wrong with it, despite the fact that every time he touched me it made my skin crawl. He was the “perfect” boyfriend, and to keep him I had to have sex with him. That’s the way it worked. I knew that! So, my friend and I came up with a catchy little saying, that we said a lot. “You can’t rape the willing.”

So, me with all my knowledge, went to a park after dark with my boyfriend. And we proceeded to begin what we came there to do. After we got started it felt very wrong and I told him to stop. At first he didn’t do anything, he told me to wait. I was cold, scared and feeling very dirty, so I told him to get up. He didn’t, saying he was almost done. Finally, I started getting loud and finally he got up, finishing up in the grass.

I felt awful. I felt dirty and disturbed. I felt betrayed because he hadn’t listened to me. I wanted to go home and cry, but I couldn’t do that. It wouldn’t have been cool. So, I walked back with him, his arm around me, still touching me. I felt even dirtier and more disgusted with myself, because I just couldn’t stand up to him to tell him to leave me alone. We walked back together, back to our friends, and I acted like nothing was wrong, like I wasn’t dying inside. Because I knew that this was just the way things had to be.

The next week he came to my house. He took me to a local park. He wanted to do it again, but this time I refused. Not openly, of course, I was much too scared to do that. I made excuses. There were a lot of little kids that came to this park. People could see from their windows. That sort of thing. I didn’t tell him I didn’t want to, just that I didn’t want to here. Even at school I talked about him and what we’d done as if it was great. Like it was fun. I only confided in one person, my best friend (not the same girl who was at the park), that I couldn’t do it again. She understood, because she’d been right where I was, and we cried together when we went over to her house. We just held each, cried and told each other how awful our experiences were.

My boyfriend broke up with me a short while later, proving to me that having sex with him is what would keep him with me. Still, I was actually relieved. I acted devestated, because that’s what girls do. But, truly I was relieved.

It was a two months later before I realized I was pregnant. I mean, the sheer impossibility of it was staggering. Granted, we hadn’t used a condom, but he finished in the grass. How could this happen to me?

I would love to tell you that I finally went to my parents. That I told them what happened and got the help that I needed. Hell, I would love to tell you that I went to any adult and got the help that I needed. Unfortunately, I knew better!!!

I knew if I told my father he wouldn’t let me have or keep the child. I knew if I told my mother she would tell my father. I knew if I told any other trusted adult that they would have to tell my father. I knew that if I went to Planned Parenthood that they would tell me the only thing to do was abort my baby. I didn’t want that. I wanted my child!!!

So, I made a plan. My best friend and I were going to run away. We were going to run away to Texas and get jobs as waitresses and raise the child together until we fell in love with some genuine cowboys, who would then help us to raise my child (who obviously was going to be a boy) to beat up people like the child’s father. We knew this plan would work! The only problem was that we weren’t anywhere close to Texas. So, we waited, trying to save money. Winter came, and that was the wrong time to leave. All the time I was worried sick that somebody would find out, literally sick.

The stress of being a young girl, pregnant and alone with only another young girl as a confidant, was overwhelming. I miscarried the child, suffering sharp pains and dangerous bleeding, and still I didn’t seek help. I was too damned scared to go to an adult. My friend and I dealt with it entirely on our own. And now, many years later, I know that not seeking help is the absolute worst thing I have ever done.

Now, the moral of this story is this:

Young girls and boys are not mature enough to make the decision to have sex. I’ve talked with many women of different ages, both older and younger than myself, and my experiences aren’t the least bit unique. Girls act like they want to have sex for all the wrong reasons; they act like it’s okay after having sex, even when they feel horrible inside. And they are scared, scared, to admit they made a mistake, to admit how they feel, and to seek they help they so desperately need.

I understand why there needs to be an organization that offers young adults initial help without a parent’s knowledge or consent. But the help should come in the form of counciling. Real, impartial advice from knowledgable, well-trained, caring professionals.

Planned Parenthood cannot be this organization, because they are not impartial (abortion is their business, even I knew that when I was fourteen) and they offer a hell of a lot more than advice. Also, I know that, with some few exceptions, telling the parents has to be a step in the process, because pregnancies, miscarriages and abortions can all be serious health risks to an under-developed body that will need to be addressed for a long time to come (and this is only one example as to why parents need to be told).

However, first, the scared teen needs to be made to feel safe. They need advice. They need an adult friend who isn’t going to judge them for their mistake, but is going to walk them through the steps on how to appropriately deal with the situation and help prepare them and support them through the fall-out. This impartial professional is going to advise the pregnant child on all the options, along with their pros and cons, and will not tell the child which option to take. This impartial professional will support this child all along the way, as councilor, confidant and friend.

Planned Parenthood does not do this. Planned Parenthood, in my experience, advises people to abort, and only offers other alternatives begrudgingly. As the law stands now, Planned Parenthood has a right to exist, but IMO it should not receive government funds to keep its doors open. Another, truly impartial government run organization should be formed, and this organization (and this organization alone) should have the ability to council children without their parents knowledge or consent, and only initially, knowing full well that the parents will eventually be informed. If the parent is part of the problem, it will also be the responsibility of this organization to help the child report the parent to the proper authorities, and work with said authorities to keep the child safe.

I hope by telling my own story, individuals from both sides of the argument will come to understand how delicate this issue is to the children it affects, and how desperate these child can be to receive real help.

wow steph, you had a very different experience with planned parenthood than i had.

my girlfriend at the time and i had a bit of a slip up which ended with her being pregnant.

now, i was open to her having the child, and in no way pushed her to have an abortion. we went to planned parenthood and talked with them. they were informative, incredibly sympathetic, understanding the importance of the matters at hand, and gave us a very clear view of our options.

this demonic place you seem to refer to was not my experience at all.

my girlfriend decided to go ahead with the abortion, which took alot out of both of us. it’s a horrible experience for anyone to go through.

but it’s a choice.

you say PP is in the business of abortions….as if they are having two-for-one sales or something. please….thats bulls**t and you know it.

no one is pushing abortions…i have never heard anyone say, “well you could have the kid, BUT ABORTIONS ARE SO MUCH FUN!”

it is a terrible thing to have to live through, and yeah, abortion should never be used as a method of birth control, as there are repeat offenders, however, if one decides that they are not capable of being a parent at that time, they have the choice to abort.

with so many crappy parents out there in the world, (i can’t tell you how many times i’ve gone to a late night R rated movie and be surrounded by kids), if a young adult or teen makes the choice to not have a child, in my opinion that is a very wise choice.

should we teach kids about sex, you bet. should we impart on them that abstinence is the only way to ensure that they won’t get pregnant or get STD’s? yes.

are kids going to have sex no matter what we tell them? yeah.

planned parenthood is an organization dedicated to helping people better understand their choices. to say that they are somehow pushing for abortions, as if they have some sort of quota to fill, is demonizing and innacurrate.

views,

My experience w/ PP was definitely different than yours, but I didn’t describe it. As a child I did not go there.

As an adult I did. I was married, recently had my first child, recently moved (and thus couldn’t go to my doctor), and in need of birth control. I went to PP to get birth control, since I hadn’t gotten a new doctor yet, and that’s when I found out I was already pregnant. She told me three times that my “best option” was an abortion, while I was trying to ask her about OB/GYN’s in town. Each time she mentioned abortion I told her “I’m not interested, can I go now?” or something to that effect. That was my argument, that we should look at each case individually. Not to imply that the terrorists/insurgents in Iraq were not wrong. Yet she continued to stand in my way and tell me that abortion was best, because I already had a child. Until finally I started yelling (admittedly profanities) and was thus able to leave.

sounds as you were well within your rights!

i am sorry that you had to go through that experience with that particular person.

i guess my point was to avoid language that would place blame on the whole organization.

sorry for what you had to go through. you had the second child then. yes?

Steph:

thanks for sharing your history.

views:

Just because you had a different experience does not mean you can demean someone else’s experience.

And I hate the statement:
-are kids going to have sex no matter what we tell them? yeah.

It is simply not true. I know many, many kids whoe don’t have sex. Making statements like that is giving kids an excuse, “It’s ok, I’m just an animal, I can’t control myself, so I might as well just do it.” I did not have sex until I was married, neither did my wife, her sister, her sister’s husband, my sisters, their husbands, my cousins and their spouses, I could keep listing them, but you get the idea. And yes, I know that there are also many who have had sex, but that doesn’t mean it is impossible to go without!

The idea that PP is opposed to PARENTS knowing what is going on with their child is ridiculous! I wish I could vote on this prop to help it pass. I’ll have to settle for praying that it does!

Stephanie,

I understand what you are saying, I think we all can relate to growing up with all it’s insecurities that we cover up by “knowing it all”, although most of us weren’t subjected to the trama you went thru.

Being raped at 10 is tragic, but the decision not to tell was brought about probably by how you were raised. Nothing like that happened to my children, but I am confident that they would have come to me if it had.

Not everyone who starts sex early in life have regrets about it. I began my sexual adventures at age 14 wit a girl who had just turned 13. We both thought it was wonderful and couldn’t wait till we could do it again. I’ve seen her on various occasions since those days many years ago and we both have fond memories of them.
You admit in your post that except for the rape, your problems were brought about by decisions that you made. A parent’s role is to raise their child. It is NOT the village’s place to raise MY child. Part of raising that child is to help them make the transition from child to adult. To do that, they have to be there to answer the difficult questions even from a child who “knows it all”.

An impartial organization to council should already be avaliable in the schools. We had councilors when I was in high school and I believe they still do. I don’t want another agency involved.

I hope I don’t sound cold in this response, I realize you revieled intimate details and I don’t take them lightly. Good luck and I hope your future is much brighter than your past.

danny:

at no point did i try to demean or discredit stephanie’s experience.

i said that i was concerned that she was overgeneralizing PP due to her particular experience.

as for your abstinence, well, god bless ya. you and your whole family have scads more self control than anyone else i know in real life.

and no, it is not impossible to go without. however, preaching that abstinence is the only option, without educating curious teens is foolish.

if you can prevent some teens from having sex until they are married, great! i am totally for that!

however, you can’t prevent all of them from experimenting, and that was my point.

ok…continue yelling at me….

views,

Yes, I had the second child. He’s the sweetest little boy I’ve ever known.

I wasn’t judging the whole on my one experience. I’ve heard numerous stories of shy individuals (which I am, at least in person :-)) who are easily intimidated (which I’m not) being pressured into “choosing” abortion. My case may be rare, but it is not unique.

danny,

“Just because you had a different experience does not mean you can demean someone else’s experience.”

I didn’t feel the least bit demeaned by views comments. I’m glad somebody had a better experience with PP than I, even though it ended in abortion.

Planned Parenthood is in the abortion business. If you took away the profits from abortion they would not exist. They even can’t get their name correct; Parenthood, when all they do is kill babies!! NARAL is even more demonic!! Life does not mean much to those groups who are out to kill, kill, kill. And it is done with yours and mine tax dollars!!

tomd,

“Nothing like that happened to my children, but I am confident that they would have come to me if it had.”

My parents thought the same thing. And I readily admit my parents made some significant mistakes while raising me (one being no religious up-bringing and little morals ground), and I am working very hard to not make those mistakes with my own children. However, I have heard similiar stories from children of very religious families, children who seemed completely at ease with their parents, children who were too scared and too immature to make the right decision when it was time.

“I hope I don’t sound cold in this response”

You don’t sound cold at all. However, you do sound a bit naive. And I do not say that to offend you, but my point is that kids make mistakes just like adults, but are less prepared to handle them properly. Sometimes it’s hard to come to a parent, someone who’s respect and pride you want to earn, with a mistake, especially one you can’t “fix” or take back.

“An impartial organization to council should already be avaliable in the schools.”

If school counselors can fill this role, great! That information should be well “advertised” to the kids in the schools, if it isn’t already. As I understood it, you had to be recommended to a school counselor where I was at, you couldn’t just go and say, “I need to talk.”

While I cringe (literally) at advocating that kids be able to seek advice without parent’s knowledge (and I do NOT advocate that abortions (or any other medical procedure) be available to children without the knowledge and consent of their parents, for many, many reasons), I understand the other side of it too well not to. I sincerely I hope my kids would come to me, but I’d rather they had someone else to go to, then have them to go to nobody at all when they need help.

views,

“however, preaching that abstinence is the only option, without educating curious teens is foolish.”

PP doesn’t even teach that abstinence is the best option to individuals for whom having sex is a crime. That’s part of the problem.

Teaching about condoms is one thing, but condoms aren’t 100% effective when used right, let alone when used as most people use them, and that fact isn’t emphasized enough by most institutions teaching about “safe sex.” Promiscuity is not “safe sex” no matter how many condoms you use.

steph:

i agree with you.

but i know that i want my children to have all of the information. i hope that when they make the decision to have sex or not, that they choose for the right reasons, love instead of peer pressure.

views,

:-) I think we agree on the basics, just not so much who’s qualified to provide the kids with the information. IMO, PP has too much bias to be objective, as per their political actions.

Hi there,

I just want to thank everyone for participating in this discussion. I also want to strike down a couple of myths.

1) I tend to lean pro-choice on abortion in general.

2) I am not of the ‘religous right’ as I have been often labeled (as a quick ‘end’ to a debate). The last time I attended church was with my grandma when I was a child and the last time I held a Bible was probably at a hotel thanks to the Gideons. This issue I presented was not necessarily about abortion directly, but more about the basic understanding of parental rights and the sanctity of the family.

Stephen:

I would like to see the statistics that show that “a high percentage of abused children who get pregnant are done by their Fathers”. I highly doubt that this is the case. In fact, I would make the argument that the number of teen who are pregnant with their fathers child is minute, so minute that it is irrational to suggest that the rights of well-meaning parents should be stripped away and handed over to private organizations at the will of the government.

The biggest flaw in this perspective is that PP is not pro-active in turning cases like this over to law-enforcement. It has to be understood that if PP wants to hide pregnancies/abortions from parents, that the chances of legal action being taken are literally zilch. The incest leads to a pregnancy, which leads to a secretive abortion, which destroys the evidence of a hideous crime and the child is returned to the environment that got her there in the first place. Do you advocate the hiding of a crime in order to supposedly protect the child? And how exactly does that work? Because PP’s website does not make any suggestions to counter this.

Would you suggest that we do away with laws against murder because some people kill in self-defense (I’m certain it’s a higher number than teens carrying their fathers babies)? You don’t avoid doing what’s right because some people might be able to get around the system. And Prop 73 has provisions worked in PRECISELY for situations where parental notification would not be prudent.

Aldous:

As far as abstinence, it works for those who choose to abide by it. Why doesn’t pro-choice start with self-control and then, when absolutely necessary, end with abortion? Do you feel that abstinence shouldn’t even be promoted in conjuction with contraception? Let’s teach the kids that sex is the norm, that abstinence is a dream, that parents are ignorant, that morals and religion are fantasies and that there is a fix for any problems created by choosing to live by these rules.

As I highlighted, some believe that children should be raised shielded from the notion that choices and actions have consequences, and that is very dangerous.

Adrienne:

In regards to the increase in fake ID’s that Prop 73 will allegedly increase: then don’t you agree that when someone breaks the law, they should face their due punishment?

Michael:

The proposition is not a law persay, but actually an amendment to the California Constitution and it may very well pass, despite your suggestion that it can’t.

Ron Brown:

Thanks for a great contribution in support of my view.

Stephanie:

In hindsight, do you believe your father would have forced you to give up or get rid of your child? Most opposition to this proposition seems to lean toward the opposite, that ‘cold’ fathers will expect their teenage daughters to become young mothers.

We can’t criticize children for being afraid to go to their parents. There were many a time when I feared my father would literally damage me over something I did. But as adults, should we encourage children that being cloak and dagger about something like this is a viable option to the stress and impending punishment? Is it responsible to try and diminish consequences for very serious actions?

Views,

One question: You say your experience with Planned Parenthood was different than what the stereotypical expectations are, yet you say that even though you were willing to father the child, after meeting with PP, you went ahead with the abortion. What you don’t say is…why. Your results didn’t differ from what PP critics accuse them of promoting, but you say that your experience was different and that the general perspective is BS. Why was it different and why in the end did it lead to an abortion?

Has anyone out there ever been openly encouraged by PP or NARAL to keep their pregnancy intact? This is an honest question that I am curious about.

otto:

why is a good question. it all came down to the two of us. we looked at where we were at that time, i was 23 and just out of college, she was 20 and still a full time college student, and she was entering that “wild party girl” stage that some college girls go through.

basically, a night of passion between us, and a “no i’ll just pull out before it happens” moment of stupidity led to her pregnancy. (i apologise if i’m being too graphic.)

our particular counselor at PP was very calm and reassuring. she asked us about our goals, and how this pregnancy, if continued, would change our lives. what were we willing to give up to keep the baby. and as any parent knows, you give up alot when you become a parent.

neither of us were willing to do that. i reaffirmed that if my girlfriend wanted to keep the baby, i would do whatever it took, however, i told her that it was her body, and i would respect any decision she made.

the PP counselor didn’t tell us to abort. but she did face us with the reality of the situation. i don’t consider that to be pushing a pro-abortion agenda. they just made us face the truth of our irresponsibility.

it saddens me to this day to think back on that time of my life, and do i regret it? of course i do. do i think it was the best decision for us both at that time? yes.

there isn’t an easy answer or solution to this problem. it is one that many have to deal with, come to grips with, and learn from. but with any tough lesson, it leaves it’s scars.

i’m sorry otto, does that help answer your question?

Otto,

“In hindsight, do you believe your father would have forced you to give up or get rid of your child?”

Yes and no. My father would have pressured me to do so, but I underestimated how willing my mother would have been to stand up for me. My mother has told me that she would have divorced my father and taken me with her, before she would have let him force me to have an abortion. I didn’t know that my mother had that much back-bone until she divorced my father (several years later) for her own purposes.

See, the thing is I have an above-average intelligence (as per IQ tests) and have always excelled in school. My father intended me to go to college and have a career. A baby, in his mind, would have interfered with that.

“But as adults, should we encourage children that being cloak and dagger about something like this is a viable option to the stress and impending punishment? Is it responsible to try and diminish consequences for very serious actions?”

That is not what I’m advocating at all. I’m not saying parent’s shouldn’t be notified. Whether you’re talking pregnancy, miscarriage or abortion, the health risks involved alone are a reason for parents to be notified, since they (along with medical insurance) are the ones who are going to have to arrange for continued care. (I use “health risks” not because it is my only arguement in favor of parental rights, or even the one most important to me, but because it is something I would hope everyone who actually cares about the teens in question could understand.) What I’m saying is that teens need a safe place to go with informed adults to talk to, in order to build up to informing their parents. A child who’s scared that her parents are going to “freak out,” whether that includes hitting or just yelling, is going to feel safer if a neutral adult is present. If school counselors can fulfill that role, then great! If they did that sort of thing where I was I certainly didn’t know about it.

I hope that clarifies things.

views,

I’m sorry, I don’t mean to make this harder for you. Abortion is rarely an easy option to face and I’ve been told the memories of it scar people for life. I don’t mean to put you in any more pain, but I have to ask. Was the option to give the baby up for adoption presented at all?

steph, thank you for your concern, but i have put my demons to rest on this. but i appreciate it!

as for adoption, yes it was discussed, however, not truly as an option. my girlfriend had mentioned it, and the counselor told us that while yes that was indeed choice we could make, that the reality of it was that most women who bring a child to bear, have the maternal instinct kick in just after birth. this clouds their judgement, and shakes their resolve on giving the baby up for adoption, and then you are smack dab where you didn’t want to be.

i know that this happens with people who use surrogate mothers, (when the wife is either infertile or at risk). The surrogate will have the child, and then at the last moment, before giving the child up, decide to keep it. causing the adopting couple untold pain and frustration.

its a similar deal with giving a child over for adoption instead of abortion. the chances of you making the best choice for the child and for your life are clouded by the emotions of the moment.

so yes it was discussed, but not in the way you are suggesting it should have been discussed. but i do not think that should be an indicator of any hidden agenda. again, i was presented with the reality of the situation, nothing more.

Hi views,

I completely understand the difficulty of your choice, and as I tried to imply, my problem here isn’t with abortion itself, again it’s about parental rights. Now you were both in your 20s, so your weren’t required to make this a family issue in the sense that you needed a parents approval.

The only problem I have with the details of what you presented is that you say that PP was not pushing a pro-abortion agenda. You then go on to say to Stephanie that your ‘counselor’ more or less discouraged carrying the child to term because emotions and motherly instincts might prevent her/you from giving the baby up for adoption. And I’m sorry, I don’t see that as a bad thing. It’s precisely those emotions and instincts that make someone a good parent and it sounds like PP presented that as a negative instead of a positive.

I think it’s hard to educate and advise someone on something like an abortion while presenting an absolutely neutral view, and your counselor didn’t sound like the kind of person who was encouraging life (sounded more like a pro-abortion stance to me). PP will say that the importance of an abortion is to protect mothers lives, rape victims, dangerous preganancies etc., unwanted children (and here your counselor instilled the fear into your friend that she may end up wanting the child) yet unless you told the counselor something you aren’t telling us, you were more or less discouraged from having the baby because it was a moment of weakness, college was on the way, the party years were still ahead etc.

Again, this isn’t a criticism of you, but of your so-called counselor who perhaps told you what you ultimately wanted to hear because it would make your life easier, and if that is what they are presenting to our teenage daughters (and yes, sons), then that is all the more reason to vote against or oppose something like Prop 73.

Hi Stephanie,

I agree that teens need someone who can educate them and steer them in the right direction. My daughter can and will get information from many different sources and I don’t have a problem with that. It’s when an abortion-driven organization wants to put her ‘under the knife’ (so to say) without my input or approval, that’s where I have the problem and that is exactly what the San Francisco chapter of PP is advocating.

You making a conscience decision to try and keep it from your father is really between you and your father. I draw the line when it comes to other adults intervening and offering stealth procedures to eliminate the problem. Then it’s not you who is to be condemned, it’s not even your father, it’s the outside source that ‘knows better’.

Did your father ever find out about it later and how did he react?

Otto,

“Did your father ever find out about it later and how did he react?”

Yes, he did, but I was not present at the time. How did he react? I don’t know how to answer this question. Really, he didn’t. We never talked about it. He was never willing to talk about it. My father….it would take a long time to explain. To keep it short, I’ll just say: My dad was an ideal father.

“It’s when an abortion-driven organization wants to put her ‘under the knife’ (so to say) without my input or approval, that’s where I have the problem.”

I am TOTALLY with you there, really I am.

IMO, Planned Parenthood should not receive any federal tax dollars or any tax dollars from my state (which I supposedly have some control over).

IMO, Planned Parenthood uses “pro-choice” to mean “pro-abortion,” as demonstrated by views own story and the majority of other stories I’ve heard.

If I lived in California I would vote FOR Proposition 73 and I would advocat voting FOR Proposition 73.

However, as this blog reaches a national audience, people who wish to construct similiar laws or propositions should consider other implications for those entities that do not offer abortion.

Does this clarify my position better?

views,

I’ll have to agree with Otto here. It really does seem like the counselor pushed abortion.

This is in my experience:

1) I have never met someone who regretted choosing to have their child.

2) I have never met someone who didn’t regret choosing to abort their baby, at least to some extent.

3) Children do put hardship on their parents. They’re inconvenient and costly. And they’re worth it 100 fold!

Had you initially decided on abortion it is possible that you would have changed your minds, however you probably wouldn’t have regretted that. The sacrifices necessary to raise a child are worth it.

Stehpanie,

I read you loud and clear and don’t think I could word it any better. I have a genuine anger and fear when I read about or hear about issues like this. PP isn’t happy with the end results of Roe v. Wade, instead they advocate for any and everything that leads to more abortion, or more power for abortion proponents. Parental notification and partial-birth abortion are two issues that hurt the abortion activists.

Last year, Sen. John Kerry (remember him - presidential candidate?) voted AGAINST partial-birth abortion! In an election year! Does anyone not think that hurt him in November? And he went on to say that his personal, Catholic beliefs were opposed to abortion, but as a Senator he had to vote against his beliefs. Which is why he was never, ever going to be president.

It borderlines lunacy, the lengths that some orgs, pols and activists will go to to defend their beliefs, and that’s fine with me until it reaches into my family and takes my kids away from me.

Thanks for the dialogue.

Stephanie

Kudos! I, as a relatively new parent, couldn’t agree more. I’m overworked, my time is stretched thin, I get little sleep and the stress can be overwhelming. But I wouldn’t give it up for anything and I will miss it when it is over. And I would cut off my right hand to protect my daughter from the pure insanities of society that want to infiltrate and dilute my importance in my daughters life.

Well, off to my ten hour shift (yawn)!

Have a good night.

stephanie,

Unless I missed something, it looks to me as if the act that impregnated you was a crime. You can rape the willing, just ask Roman Polanski.

You were 14 & he was 17. I don’t know what state you were in or when this occured, but in New York today that’s a crime (Third Degree Sexual Abuse).

Just out of curiousity, did you know that you were the victim of a crime? Did you ever consider going to the police? If you’d told either of your parents, would they have suggested or compelled prosecution?

More generally, if a girl under the age of consent in that particular state shows up at PP pregnant, is PP compelled to notify the proper authorities?

One final note regarding Prop. 73. Parental notification must be tied to the age of consent. If she’s exceeded the legal age of consent, she’s entitled to conduct herself as she sees fit, without any mandatory intervention from anyone: friends, lovers, relatives, mentors or parents. Of course, she should turn to all of these sources for succor and advise before making a profound decision regarding parenthood, adoption or abortion; but the government cannot compel her to do so.

If the state law permits her to have sex legally, then it must permit her to deal with the consequences of those actions without mandatory parental notification.

One last tidbit before I duck out for the night - Chuck makes some good and obvious points, and it led me to a curiousity:

Do any opponents of Prop 73 feel that the government should require a teenager to go to Planned Parenthood for counseling and solutions if they become pregnant? I have a feeling that San Fran PP would probably support this idea.

Otto,

I think you meant “Last year, Sen. John Kerry (remember him - presidential candidate?) voted AGAINST [the] partial-birth abortion [ban]!”

And yes, that’s simply outrageous and his justification sounds to me like a bald-faced lie, but…

The thing of it is, as with all other civil rights movements, sometimes the people in charge are called on to do what is right, instead of what is popular. The problems we face are two-fold.

1) The people who’s civil rights are being violated can’t protest or parade around, because most of them end up dead. (Some babies do survive the regular abortion procedures, which is why pro-abortion advocates want to suck out the babies’ brains before the baby is removed from the mother, that way there is no chance for the baby to survive. And, I apologize for the graphic expression, but sometimes honesty requires truly disturbing things to be discussed.)

2) The people who are the most skilled at advocating civil rights are on the wrong side!

Otto,

I’ll thank you now, on your daughter’s behalf, for all the effort you put into raising her and wish you the best of luck and love for the future. It’ll be awhile before she can thank you herself, but eventually she will (even after she’s told you she hates you and that all you’re trying to do is destroy her life)! ;-)

Thanks Stephanie, both for the correction (I always miss the word ‘ban’ for some reason!) and the comments.

Okay, now I’m gone for real this time! ;o)

Chuck,

Yes, what I described was a crime and I know that now. However, part of my point is that children make bad choices due to lack of knowledge and experience. I wasn’t a “bad” kid. I was never a “bad” kid. As a child I got in serious trouble (meaning I was grounded for more than a day) exactly once. Twice, including the incident when I was fourteen, I did something major and didn’t get caught doing it. I stole once, and took the item back on my own without getting caught. I had sex while under-age. I snuck out once and got caught. That’s it. I never got below a C in school and can count all the Cs I did get on one hand. I was polite and respectful to adults and my fellow classmates. Nobody looking for “troubled teens” would have targeted me. I didn’t fit the profile in the least. Yet, I made some major mistakes that have effected the rest of my life. That’s part of the point. That’s why I’m sharing this.

“Just out of curiousity, did you know that you were the victim of a crime?”

Sort of, but it really didn’t sink in. See, while I knew it was a crime, while I knew my parents would have pressed charges (or my Dad would have just called up my uncles…the men in my family aren’t exactly above vigilante justice), I also knew it was “okay.” That’s part of the problem I have with PP. I’d seen their literature. “Sex is natural. Sex is normal. Sex is pleasureable…” yadayadayada.

The sex-education I received did not at any point in time emphasize that sex at my age was a crime and punishable by law. My then 17-year-old brother was the one who kept telling me that. Then again, he was also the one who I did tell who said, “I’m going to kick that son-of-a-b****’s ass.” And effectively chased the guy out of town.

“Did you ever consider going to the police?”

No, avoiding the humiliation of explaining what happened was part of why I avoided telling any adults. (Obviously, I’m over that now. :-))

“More generally, if a girl under the age of consent in that particular state shows up at PP pregnant, is PP compelled to notify the proper authorities?”

I don’t know. I didn’t go, because I wanted to keep my baby. I just had their literature, which I got in sex-ed class. I’m no longer in the same state (it was Nebraska).

“If the state law permits her to have sex legally, then it must permit her to deal with the consequences of those actions without mandatory parental notification.”

I understand what you’re saying here, but the states have been lowering the age of consent and that should be factored in as well. Someone who is not legally able to sign a contract without a gaurdian’s consent should not be legally able to consent to a medical procedure without a gaurdian’s consent. Following that same logic, that same individual should not be legally able to provide consent for sexual activity.

Since, as per what I know, most places do not allow a person under the age of 18 to sign a legally binding contract, all else should follow suit, IMO.

Otto,

Bye, I hope you have a good night at work! :-)

3) Children do put hardship on their parents. They’re inconvenient and costly. And they’re worth it 100 fold!

Stephanie, I’m afraid I have to disagree with you.
They’re worth it 1,000,000 fold. And wait until the grandkids start showing up. And I hope you have as many as I do. I have 14 of them.

OttO
Do any opponents of Prop 73 feel that the government should require a teenager to go to Planned Parenthood for counseling and solutions if they become pregnant? I have a feeling that San Fran PP would probably support this idea.

They’re not the only PP that would support it.

Just one quick question for the pro-choisers before my wife come in here and kills me for being late to diner.
Aren’t YOU glad your mother didn’t have an abortion?

Ron Brown,

“They’re worth it 1,000,000 fold.”

Actually, Ron, they can’t be compared to any numeric value, but that’s impossible to explain to somebody who’s never had kids.

And yeah, I’m looking forward to grandchildren, but my oldest is only 8, so I’ll wait! Hopefully for at least another 10 years.

Stephanie,
Actually, Ron, they can’t be compared to any numeric value,

Don’t I know it. I guess that was the point I was trying to make.

“Aren’t YOU glad your mother didn’t have an abortion?”

‘groan’….yes of course i am glad my mother did not choose to abort me….thank you for making that lovely biased arguement…clearly if only those considering heard such astute logic they would choose to have their child…right….

at this point i leave the discussion to those who want to agree with eachother.

views:

sorry for misreading your earlier post. I also missed the two posts before my original one while I was reading. gotta remember to reload before posting! I don’t get on here often, so this is really late.

Others:

I agree, I hope prop 73 passes, and I think PP should get their own funding, not through tax dollars. Oh, and I agree that a child changes things, though I have no idea how much yet. My wife is 3 months pregnant with our first!

views,

Don’t leave, bring some friends.

danny,

Congratulations!

I’d love it if every girl was part of a family that loved her, didn’t abuse her, and had open, candid discussions about sex. In such cases, I think that a pregnant teenage girl would be likely to discuss her pregnancy with her parents, Prot 73 or not. Unfortunately, this isn’t the case, and many girls are brought up in families that would 1. force her to have an abortion, or 2. kick her out of the family, effectively making her homeless. In worst-case scenarios, these girls are victims of incest, and really don’t have anyone to talk to.

I wish every girl was brought up in a family that is loving and accepting and honest. Unfortunately, this isn’t the case, and prop 73 effectively punishes those girls born into families less open and accepting than our own.

Ron, Stephanie, Otto, and Everyone else here,

(PLEASE DON’T DIE FROM SHOCK)

Believe it or not - I was 48 before I decided I was stuck with being alive.(I am now 50) You see, my life was a mess - my mother was mental ill (4 personalities), and tried on several occaisions to kill ME, and my father (THE DOCTOR) was as arrogant as hell, and told me all about how he would toss me out of the house if I A. got Pregant, or B. Got arrested. Thing was he MEANT it and I KNEW THAT. My Stepmother was no piece of cake either - espeially after she started trying to kill my Dad. If I had gotten pregnant, do you really think I would have wanted to tell anyone in my family? Hell NO! Abortion is not for me, but I certainly can understand where it comes from and why parents are NOT ALWAYS the best choice as far as making informative decisions. Besides, my crazy Mother died from one of the “backroom” abortions - so she never lived long enough to receive medical help or to see her Grandchildren.

PRO-CHOICE - you better believe it - unless you are willing to take the risk of losing 2 lives, or make sure everyone who is pro-life is ready to adopt (and I don’t just mean the baby but the Mom as well, once she gets kicked out) - because living does not always mean “happily everafter” -sometimes it is simply existence and that is a terrible way to be - I know I’ve been there.

Watching immature children trying to raise babies - just how do pro-livers think young mothers are going to do that - and do it well? BY themselves? Don’t even suggest that their parents will help - because most kick their daughters out of the house, and then they wind up with me, or others lke me, who try to help them figure out how they will eat, where they will live, trying to get them jobs, find babysitters so they can finish school and care for AN UNWANTED baby. You think Baby is happy? No, I do not advise abortion - besides by the time I get them they are too far along to do anything - because they were too afraid to tell Mom or Dad until it was too late for that to even be a consideration.

God willing, Kids wouldn’t get pregnant, but they do, and since parents are obivously NOT doing their JOBS about teaching their kids about sex, how should I or anyone else expect the average parent to help kids when they do get pregnant?

Oh just in case anyone is wondering, if I were to die tonight I’d still regret my birth, and the damage it cost me, my mother, my father, my step-mother. And my own family. AND yes - I’ve been in couseling, and as much as I love my girls, I would still rather my mother had aborted me.

By the way, in my job as a Teen Counselor for runaways,(for the past 27 years) the vast majority ran away from so called caring parents, becasue they were afraid of them and yes - incest is alive and well in the good old USA.

Linda Haenchen

green LA girl,

Proposition 73 has a waiver set up for girls in the situation you described.

The waiver will be set up as a sort of rush process in front of a judge who will listen to the arguments on a case by case basis to determine different situations where parental notification may not be in the best interest for the child. What is so horrible about this?

If you can answer Otto’s question, then do so. Otherwise, you haven’t mentioned anything that hasn’t already been addressed in the proposition.

Linda,

First, I’m sincerely sorry you had to experience such a childhood. However, now our society is better at removing children from such homes as yours was. Still not perfect, but better. A comprehensive foster system that provided children with real stability and safe environments would go a long way. Unfortunately, we are still in the process (at least in many states) of developing such a system.

Second, counseling is supposed to help people get past their experience and try to live their lives more normally. If you have not been able to obtain this for yourself, how is it you feel qualified to counsel teens experiencing what you cannot get past? This deeply troubles me, because the children who come to you for guidance need hope and healing, it seems to me that you have none to offer them.

I’ve known several people who lived through very similiar experiences as yours. Some of them have tried to get past it and succeeded, while others flounder and use their past as an excuse for the mistakes they’re making now. Troubled teens need role models, people who have made successes of themselves inside and out despite their past.

If we cannot demonstrate to our needy teens that the cycle can be broken, then the cycle will continue to perpetuate itself and generations of children will fall victim to it, whether babies are aborted or not.

Hi Linda.

I can understand your sentiment and your position in context to your experiences. A couple of things:

Prop 73 includes a judicial waiver, a process where teens (hopefully and probably with the support of PP) can bring their case to a judge with something like a one week turn-around where a judge can determine that parental notification would not be in the best interest of the child. And of course this must be in there for it to be effective.

Now some will make the argument that some kids will be too intimidated to see a judge. I say tough luck. Opponents of Prop 73 want to shield kids from the consequences of their actions and even their choices. Can’t tell the parents because the parents just might be angry, may not react in a feel-good, understanding manner. And we can’t expect them to go to a judge, because that would be stressful and intimidating. Should teens face any kind of responsibility when they get to this point? Sex is an adult game and in the adult world, there are consequences for behavior, regardless if the kids were properly educated or not.

Yes, some teens are victims of molestation, rape and incest. But to limit the exposure of those types of incidents to the back of a filing cabinet at PP seems irresponsible and destructive. The aggressors need to be prosecuted and the kids need to be moved to safety. That won’t happen when it is covered up. Especially when the aggressor is the father. I doubt that if PP or a judge suspected the father of ‘fathering’ the daughters child, that that wouldn’t automatically invoke the waiver. And then wouldn’t the appropriate thing to do be to remove the child and charge the father?

What is the alternative to Prop 73 when a 13 or 14 year old seeks a ‘secret’ abortion? Send her back to the environment where she was assaulted to begin with?

My fundamental problem with your post is that you are willing to take away the basic rights and principles of well-meaning parents to make decisions for and protect their kids because you had lousy parents. Why am I automatically lowered to the type of parent that your father and mother were?

Four-personality mothers and daughters impregnated by fathers are statistically so low that I don’t see why we need to create a sweeping policy of family intrusion and infringement based on bad apples. Especially when that policy protects wrong-doers and strips kids away from family, trust and dignity.

Otto,

I wish we had some unambiguous information on this issue.

The CA Secretary of State website has a PDF* of this proposition states:

“A study of over 46,000 pregnancies of school-age girls in California found that over two-thirds were impregnated by adult men whose mean age was 22.6 years.”

http://www.ss.ca.gov/elections/bp_nov05/entire73.pdf
(page 13)

However, a “school age girl” could be a 18, 19, 20, 21 or 22 year old in college. And where is this survey from?

Another point—research by the Alan Guttmacher Institute lists

http://www.agi-usa.org/presentations/abort_slides.pdf
(page 10)

rape or incest to be a reason for getting an abortion in just 1% of the cases, but what percentage of this one percent is incest? 50% of the 1%? Or 10% of the 1%? We don’t know.

What percentage of the rapes are of a child? And how is “child” defined? We just don’t know.

*[BTW, does ANYONE know how to copy and paste from an Adobe 7.0 PDF?—Thanks!]

Not being entirely opposed to abortion rights, I do find the thinking of people concerning the rights of minors humorous. Police don’t have the right to search kids, but schools do. Children have the right to free speech, but it can’t be morbid. Kids can’t get a body piercing but can get an abortion. Now, frankly speaking, if it were up to me kids would get forced depo shots until they’re 20. Babies having babies is just moronic and in many instances sentences the mother and child to a life of (or near) poverty. Plus it’s an overall drain on the economy as the demand for social programs causes an increase in taxes. However it’s time to declare whether and when a minor is a minor and subject to the parents or guardians decisions (and can always try to emanicpate themselves if they think they are unsuitable) or whether they are protected by all the same rights and laws as all Americans and cannot be subject to age discrimination. It doesn’t make sense to keep pick and choosing.

Common -

Welcome aboard!

Trust me, if statistics showed an overly alarming rate of incestual pregnancy, PP would have it on their website as support for their opposition to parental rights.

Keith -

Hi. Minors don’t have ‘rights’ persay because they are the responsibility of their adult guardians…and they can’t vote!

My main gripe with the attitude of some people on this topic is that they either want to teach kids that sex is okay, or not teach kids that sex is serious stuff with long lasting or even dangerous consequences…and then shield them from those very consequences!!!

It’s quite frustrating and disturbing.

keith,

“…if it were up to me kids would get forced depo shots until they’re 20.”

Forcing a particular birth control choice is a really bad idea. My doctor and I tried various different forms of birth control before finding one that didn’t cause severe depressive episodes. Depo shots was one of the ones that made me nearly suicidal (it happened quickly enough that I recognized that it must be the chemicals).

Aside from that, chemical birth control options aren’t entirely benign. They’re not 100% gaurenteed to stop pregnancies. They do nothing for STD’s. They mess with a woman’s (or girl’s) body in major ways. They can permanently reduce fertility. And in the instance of depo shots, they’re in your body for three months whether you have a bad reaction or not.

Besides the fact that if “telling her parents” is considered by some to be a human rights violation, government enforced drugging is outrageously unlikely. Might as well suggest all the boys be fed salt peter.

First - I’m not from Ca. so I admit I know very little about Prop 73.

Secondly - I am not bitter about my childhood, in fact it frequently serves as example of what not to do to a child. It’s just that in my job I see my experience being repeated over and over again.

Thirdly,- I work with the “Foster Parent” program now, and I know how few there really are. Especially good ones.

Four, I don’t know where you folks live, but incest is one of the highest causes of pregnancy in the south.

Five - Stephanie - as you stated: now our society is better at removing children from such homes as yours was. Still not perfect, but better. A comprehensive foster system that provided children with real stability and safe environments would go a long way. Unfortunately, we are still in the process (at least in many states) of developing such a system.”

My dear, you obliviously know very little about the foster care system, or removal of a child. I’ve worked with them most of my adult life, so I will try to give you the benefit of experience. GET YOURSELF qualified to be a FOSTER PARENT and start doing it.
And remember removing a child from the home is not very effective if they are already pregnant.
Herck most of them have removed themselves by that time. And are on the streets.

Six- I stated that I personally could not ever have an abortion, but I can certainly see reasons why 13year old - to 16 year old (some younger)would be afraid to tell anyone about their pregnancy - assuming they even realized they WERE pregnant. It would probably amaze most of you to realize how few girls even know when they are pregnant until they begin to show - around 4-5 months. Many do not associate the lost of a period with being pregnant, especially since younger bodies handle pregnancies far differently that those of more mature bodies (check your health books)

Seventh- I found it interesting that no one spoke up about how many babies they were willing to adopt. And let’s just throw in the FACT that most girls DO want to keep their babies, and don’t realize how difficult it is until the baby is 1-3 years old. If they give them up at all. Because this is the CYCLE we MUST STOP! Most people want to adopt BABIES, NOT Toddlers.

Eight - just for kickers - what about the fathers? No one here has expressed how the fathers should be held accountable - and if you tell me child support - I really will laugh, because young fathers can’t /won’t work at jobs that make child support a viable option. Most of these fathers are still in school themselves. Or dropouts, which still brings me to the question - why are 13-16 year olds DATING MEN the ages of 20+? Where are these “good parents” when this is happening?

Otto,
“Should teens face any kind of responsibility when they get to this point? Sex is an adult game and in the adult world, there are consequences for behavior, regardless if the kids were properly educated or not.”

My question to you is WHY AREN’T They being taught about sex? AND contraception’s? Seems to me the good parents will have little trouble, as they will teach ALL about SEXUAL relationships and responsibilities, but as many parents seem to think it’s the schools job to teach sex (on a laughable level) why do you want to punish a baby for the mistakes it’s Mother didn’t even know about?

Nine - Until we get over the fear of talking frankly with all our children, BOYS as well as girls, this subject will continue to raise it’s ugly head. I managed to raise one 24 year old and a set of 23 year old twins, all girls, and believe it or not they are ALL still virgins. And NOT because I put the FEAR of GOD into them, but because I showed them the homes (halfway houses ) where so many girls end up and the ones walking the streets. I also taught them what sex is and what to expect when their sexually feeling are aroused, and that it should only be in a loving relationship, sanctioned by the Higher Power of their choice - a relationship that is capable of taking care of an unexpected child, and then I showed them how to put a condom on a banana and why they are not always effective, and we all together studied how the pill can fail, and how there are truly no totally effective ways of preventing a pregnancy, except abstinence.

10.- I will wind this long letter up by saying that , I believe in pro-choice - but for adults. I am not all together sure about this law making parents aware of their daughters pregnacies however.For all of the various reasons I have mentioned.

I do know however that teenage girls will continue to get pregnant, and teenage boys will continue to be fathers, and many “fathers” will be FATHERS of the girl. I wish there were places where girls could and most importantly would go to get help. Hey - maybe even parents could go as well.

I have had both good and bad experiences with PP. Mostly good. But it frequently depends on the counselor involved. I agree they need to monitor their people more closely. But unless free clinics are available for contraptions, sex education , we must still pray that even the BAD PARENTS will try to teach their children something, and that the GOOD ones will help out the girls in their school systems, community, and churches. The ones on the street with no homes to go to - The ones no one wants. The ones who will raise the babies no one wants. And thus the cycle continues.

Linda H.

Linda H.,

2) You seem bitter by the fact that claimed (I’m not doubting that) you went through most of your life wishing you were never born. My husband, who suffers from manic-depression, also wishes he were never born most of the time and he is very bitter. If you say you’re not, I will accept that and I do apologize for assuming you were.

4) That claim doesn’t make any sense. “…the highest causes of pregnancy in the south.” Perhaps unwanted teen pregnancies or unwanted pregnancies in general, but if it’s true of all pregnancies than law enforcement is a major problem in your area. Frankly, that’s the case if it’s true at all. That, however, isn’t the case where I’m at (Wisconsin).

5) “My dear, you obliviously know very little about the foster care system, or removal of a child.”

I know more than you think. Yes, it’s difficult to do, but part of the problem is too many people turn their backs on what’s happening.

“GET YOURSELF qualified to be a FOSTER PARENT and start doing it.”

I would love to, however, my husband is trying to overcome mental illness and I have three special needs children (Autism Spectrum Disorder) of my own, plus a step-son who lives (most of the time) with his semi-neglectful mother. Unfortunately, his mother (who is 48) lives with her own mother who actually takes care of my step-son. We are still trying to figure out a good way to get custody of him so he can have a stable family life, but right now we don’t have grounds (so, trust me, I do understand the legal complexities involved, which we should all advocate to change IMO). So, basically, when our home is stable enough to be a benefit to a needy child, I will probably try to go through that process. Unfortunately, that may never be possible for me and is certainly not possible for the foreseeable future, however much I wish it were otherwise.

“And remember removing a child from the home is not very effective if they are already pregnant.”

It’s certainly more effective than letting the child get beaten or raped again, assuming she sticks around long enough to find out what her family will do to her.

6) I don’t dispute anything you said there. And, as much as I abhor abortion, I’m not against it completely from a political stand-point. But, in counter-point to your arguement, it seems (by news coverage) that many of the girls in my area do not choose abortion. The hide the pregnancy until the baby is born, starving themselves to make it less noticable, and then leave the child in a dumpster or at the bottom of a port-a-potty (for two relatively recent and quite memorable examples).

7) I agree with your problem here completely. Another difficulty is that adoption is so damned expensive. Many people simply can’t afford the $30,000 or more to adopt a baby and still have money left to raise the child. We need to make adoption about getting babies into good homes, not about baby trafficking to rich families.

8) I addressed this (though from a bit of a different angle) on another thread. Would you like me to transfer it here?

9) “My question to you is WHY AREN’T They being taught about sex? AND contraception’s?”

Both children and parents need to be educated on how important an issue this is. If PP would invest their spare capital in this, instead of advocating abortion, I wouldn’t have nearly such a problem with them. However, they don’t do that. Sex, as per the literature I received, is okay and fun and…well, you get the idea.

In closing I will say that I have known far too many girls (most of which are now women) who’ve been through the kind of experiences you’re describing. My heart goes out to them and I do help whereever and however I can. I wish I could do more, but stability isn’t something I have to offer the young teens experiencing it now. I have personally been there to help some special young women get back on their feet, if no other way than by loving them and by making damned sure they know I love them. I’ve stood in the face of one man I knew to be a child molester, when the child in question could not get away from him (when I was a child myself) and told him that if he didn’t walk away I would make everyone around come running. He walked away. I have reported a child molester (who himself was a child) to the proper authorities and testified in court, protecting the victim in my own home until things were settled. I’m not nearly as ignorant as you seem to think I am. And I don’t just talk about doing good, I do it whenever and wherever I can. I personally encourage you to have hope. We can change things…one life, one future, at a time.

Otto:

If they aren’t adults and they don’t have “rights” then they don’t have the “right to privacy” “found” in Roe v. Wade then this isn’t even an Consitutional issue as brought up (albeit briefly) in the article. There can be no “undermining of the Constitution” if said document doesn’t apply. I am in agreement with what you said and prhaps my initial postdidn’t make my stance clear, but I was just bringing up the questions that pop into my head when I read about supposed minors rights.

Stephanie:

The forced depo part of my post was an poor attempt at humor in my part. While I do stand by what I said about teen pregnency and the financial downfall it brings to many, the idea of forcing birth control on people was not intended to be taken seriously.

Linda H:

You’re obviously just a bigot against those of southern background. So if you’re going to state some moronic mind numbingly ignorant thing like “incest is one of the highest causes of pregnancy in the south.” you better be prepared to back it up with some hard statistics. When you consider the fact that several sites put incest as a cause for abortion at ONE PERCENT you have quite a road to hoe. So please provide where it says incest is one of the highest causes of pregnancy in the south. Or at least whatever comical idea you have of the word “highest”.

Linda,

Incest is one of the highest causes of pregnancy in the south? Assuming (hopefully) that you mean teen pregnancy, I would love to see some numbers showing this.

No, I have no plans to adopt children, but I have encouraged my best friend to, who is having fertility problems and he looking into it. It’s really kind of irrelevant to my point.

>>My question to you is WHY AREN’T They being taught about sex?

Whose to say they aren’t? I think most public schools have sex-ed. But it goes back to something I was saying earlier about kids and responsibility - kids get into trouble doing the stupidest things that you or I probably wouldn’t do. That is the nature of children. You can teach a kid to drive safely but it doesn’t mean that he isn’t going to try to impress his friends and try taking a corner at 45 miles an hour. You can teach you kids about drugs and alcohol but it doesn’t mean that kids won’t be smoking pot or drinking when unsupervised. And you can teach kids about the dangers and repercussions about sex all day long but in the end, they are going to go for instant gratification and being kids, they are going to see risks as more of dice game than you or I would. The older one gets (I think) the bigger risks seem, even if they are the same risks you ignored in your youth. Not to say I don’t think that education (particularily in the home) isn’t important. It is. But it, or the lack of it, doesn’t give society a green light to intervene in the sanctity of a family.

So no, I’m not convinced that because of ignorance and the personal problems that a pregnancy might lead to, that we as a country (or at least, in this case, a state) should set a policy that is ultimately destructive to both the child, the family and basic notions of right and wrong.

With all due respect, I’ll take you word that all three of your 20-something daughters are virgins, but you really can’t know that for sure. So let’s say they were wise and responsible. Good for them. But if one of them were to ‘experiment’ and become pregnant and feel shame in telling you (even though I’m sure you think you wouldn’t), then why would you, as a caring and responsible mother, advocate some stranger to help a child make a decision that you may want to weigh in on?

As far as fathers fathering the children of their daughters, you keep insisting that this is some sort of epidemic. Here’s a partial solution, along your line of thinking: instead of worrying about teaching kids how to put on a condom, teach them that pedophilia and incest is a crime. You wish they had somewhere to go for help - teach them that the law is there to protect them. And Proposition 73 would allow this type of criminal activity to go on unpunished and unstopped.

Again, I ask why must reward bad behavior and infringe on the rights of good people at the bequest of bad people.

Just to clarify one thing: when I said that my views of foster parenting are irrelevant, I meant to expand that to include most of the excuses and sort of sob stories about the plights of ignorant teenagers. I’m pretty serious about rights issues (real rights, not demands and desires) as readers will find in the coming months. Just because some people may slander others or make terroristic threats, it doesn’t justify taking away the right to speak freely for people who don’t abuse it. I see this issue as exactly the same thing. Don’t take away my human right to be a parent to my child because some people have or create problems in their lives. All of the stories about desperate teens (and yes, I was a screwed up teen too who feared my father) and woeful circumstances won’t change that.

Keith -

I understand what you mean. PP refered to Prop 73 as undermining the Constitution and my response to that is that voting for an amendment is not undermining the Constitution - it is altering it legally, as the writers intended.

I understood what you meant, I just didn’t word my response very well. I should have presented it to sound more like a clarification than a counter argument.

To me this is quite simple. My children were MY responaibility until they reached the age of majority. If my son had broken a window while playing baseball, whether his actions were reckless or not, I would be responsible for replacing the window.
If I am going to be held responsible for someone, I want that person’s life to be an “open book” to me in every way possible. I damn sure don’t want a government agency withholding information about lifestyle choices my child has made from me.

The position we are in in life is directly related to choices we make growing up, with relatively few exceptions.

I understand that there are some families that abuse their children, but there are already laws to address that. Lets use those existing laws instead of taking away my responsibilities as a parent.

Otto,

“And Proposition 73 would allow this type of criminal activity to go on unpunished and unstopped.”

You’re confusing me. Isn’t Proposition 73 to prevent children from getting abortions without their parents’ knowledge? So, if a child wanted an abortion, but couldn’t tell her parents because it’s her own dad’s baby, and in order to avoid tell her parents she’d have to tell a judge why, and the judge would order the police to investigate…

I’m confused here. Wouldn’t voting against Propostion 73 “allow this type of criminal activity to go on unpunished and unstopped.”

tomd,

“I understand that there are some families that abuse their children, but there are already laws to address that. Lets use those existing laws instead of taking away my responsibilities as a parent.”

While I agree wholeheartedly that children SHOULD NOT be able to get abortions without parental consent, unless they go through proper authorities for specific incidents related to abuse, the laws that address that abuse are often insufficent or insufficently enforced.

My area is not what I would call over-burdened by child abuses cases. Response time to investigate these cases are usually pretty good. However, individuals reporting incidents are not as good. I’ll use my own self as an example.

I’ve been reported to CPS (Child Protective Services) five times (that have been investigated). Each time they came to my home, did their jobs, and unsubstaniated the report made against us (we were found not guilty). The reasons the reports were made in the first place is that my children (due to their developmental delays) have little to no saftey awareness. My children were “escaping” our home to go play and doing so in unsafe situations. Each time they found a new way out, we stopped up the exit as best we could, but because we were renting we could not make any permanent changes and my kids were able to out-think the majority of the child-safety devices on the market. So, we were at an impasse and decided we had to move to a home of our own. We couldn’t exactly afford it, but we made the sacrifices necessary and have had great success. Now, the only way the children can get out side on their own is into our fenced in backyard. All holes in our fence have been boarded up, all exits from the fence have been blocked (for the children, determined adults can still get through). Our children are safe, but it took trial and error. CPS has been great about working with us to make that possible, helping us brainstorm about how best to secure our children and our home.

However, when I tell people that CPS have been to our home, my friends and family tend to get irrate, or at least irritated. They say things like, “Why did they come here? You don’t need them meddling in your lives. If they want to protect kids, then they should be investigating so and so…” This response always amazes me. As annoying as it is, I don’t mind CPS coming over. They’re just doing their jobs. But, when people respond with some other family that needs CPS intervention, I always have to ask, “Well, did you report them?” The answer is almost always, “No…” followed by excuses. That is the problem in my area.

Now, in some areas (usually big cities, from what I’ve heard), there are simply too many cases for CPS to handle. There is too much abuse and not enough staff, too much red tape and not enough scissors. IMO, that is where these matters need to be addressed, not in creating laws that solve a “small” problem while further aggrivate the much larger problem and hurting the families that don’t need such intervention.

In short, abuse is a very real problem that is not sufficiently addressed, however allowing children to abort their unwanted babies without parental knowledge and consent doesn’t address the underlying problem and, instead, further aggrivates the mcuh larger problem by hiding it.

To all of you who responded to my post,
You give me hope. Because it is oblivious that you care for your children and love them un-conditionally. That’s what a good parent does, as well as teach about the facts bout anything - from how to change a tire, to cooking, to sex education, to supporting adoption.

You all do seem to have the wrong idea about what I am trying to say about this Prop 73, which I admitted that I know little about, and would love to be enlighten on. I DO BELIEVE that parents should be the the FIRST COURSE of intervention when their daughter is pregnant. These girls need all the support they can get - from anyone and everyone.

The problem arises when the girls do not have caring parents, the type of parents who would do anything possible for their children - whether to raise the baby as their own, babysitting while their daughter goes to school, financially support both she and the baby ( and get the father’s involved),etc. (Speaking of which, have any of you read how high the incidences of GRANDPARENTS raising grandchildren has grown?)

I am talking about the average parent - the middle to lower economic class range, who can’t afford to pay for another child, the ones who work 2 jobs to try to support the children they have; the young single mother raising her own illegitimate children; the ones who don’t bother to teach their children about sex, perhaps because of their own ignorance or heaven forbid embarrassment; the ones who strongly object to the schools teaching about contraception on religious grounds (which is their right - if they themselves ACTUALLY talked to their own children).

I’m not talking about some idealist family whose children know exactly what would happen if she were to confront her parents with a pregnancy, (love and support) but the average, everyday girl. The ones in our very own ELEMAENTARY, MIDDLE and HIGH SCHOOLS. Go though your schools at home, you will see the girls I am referring to. They are everywhere. Who protects and teaches them? Not their teachers, - not their parents, not the fathers of their babies, in other words NO ONE.

It constantly amazes me when I hear a child say that they want a baby because it HAS TO LOVE them. I hear that too many times a day to count any more. These girls are not seeking babies, they are seeking un-conditional love, which they apparently don’t receive at home.

I also work for the Juvenile Justice Department in the good old state of S.C. so perhaps I see more of the troubled kids than most. That could color my judgement. But, unless you’ve been in family court, and tried to help a young mother who doesn’t seem to give a hoot about her children, who refuses to care for the babies they’ve already brought into this world, please don’t tell me that most parents can and will help their children.

Case in point: This past Thursday, I was in court concerning the welfare of 2 little girls - one 18 mos. the other 4 yrs. The mom was 19.(AS in NINETEEN YEARS) ( YOU do the MATH) Her own mother had had all 7 (yes SEVEN!) of her own children removed from her home. These two little girls were and are very lucky - because family friends took them in, and now have assumed what is referred to as “legal and physical custody”. They receive NO financial support from ether the Mom, or the father, (whom she will not name-thus these girls can not be adopted.) Even though a court ordered support was issued when this case first came to light, (FEB) there as been no enforcement because that would put the Mom in jail, and our jails are already over crowded, and of course how would she be able to work while in jail? Assuming she ever actually got a job - and heaven knows I took her to several places that were hiring. Nothing was “quiet what she wanted”.
So off her two daughters go, while she is free to do as she pleases - including getting pregnant again - which she has.

What do you learned folk think we should do about these girls. AND FATHERS?

By the way - I’ve talked to several people who work at PP all over these 48 contiguous state, and have found, just as you say, some who seem to assume that abortion is the only way to go - which I do not agree with , but most of them encourage adoption, or keeping the baby. They also encourage, STRONGLY that both the FATHER, and Both SETS of PARENTS be bought into the decision making progress.

I do hope I have made my position a bit more clear. As for the statistics you ask for - well, most girls are too ashamed to admit that their own father abused them, however on the last paper I received from work, the belief is that anywhere from 20% to 45% are actually the babies of the girls’ fathers. The State of S.C. is trying to instigated a test checking DNA samples to be administered all babies born to girls 16 years and under, to try to determine just how high this figure actually is. What they plan to do with this information is anyone’s guess. (I know what I’D LIKE to see done, but that’s not likely) If this financially strapped state is trying to do this, then I’d say there is a high probability of incest.

I do wish I had a scanner, because I have lots of information regarding this stuff.

Linda H.

Stephanie,

“6) I don’t dispute anything you said there. And, as much as I abhor abortion, I’m not against it completely from a political stand-point. But, in counter-point to your arguement, it seems (by news coverage) that many of the girls in my area do not choose abortion. The hide the pregnancy until the baby is born, starving themselves to make it less noticable, and then leave the child in a dumpster or at the bottom of a port-a-potty (for two relatively recent and quite memorable examples).

You made my point more clearly that I ever could. Thank you and Yes I would like to read what you wrote about the FATHERS

Kieth,

You’re obviously just a bigot against those of southern background. So if you’re going to state some moronic mind numbingly ignorant thing like “incest is one of the highest causes of pregnancy in the south.”

I am from the South, Love the South and will die a Southern. I am not a bigot against those of southern background. I resent that accusation. So I will not bother to address it.

I also know about the sex education policies in the south, and as stated in my last note, I wish I could give you site pages to go to. I called my boss first thing this morning to try and get those statics for you.When I get them I will try to post them.

Otto:

No, I have no plans to adopt children, but I have encouraged my best friend to, who is having fertility problems and he looking into it. It’s really kind of irrelevant to my point.

How could not caring for the welfare of these children NOT be relevant to your point? And why haven’t you considered adopton? That would certainly make your point more viable. (Easier to shove off on a infertile friend, Right?)

As most of you have already made my points for me, I shall consider this particualr issue to be at rest. I will simply be happy to disagree with you, if you’ll be happy to disagree with me. I think the most important thing to come out of this discussion is that all of us care, and are just as frustrated about what to do as the other is. It is open discussions like this that frequently lead to new ideas about change - brain-storming if you will, and hopefully somewhere along the line someone reading though this may have a “light-bulb” turn on.

Linda -

>>How could not caring for the welfare of these children NOT be relevant to your point?

Because my point had nothing to do with the right and wrongs of abortion and adoption (BTW, I didn’t say I didn’t care, I said it was irrelevant to my point). My entire point has everything to do with the frightening realization that government is reaching into areas where it has no business. Government can now take your property for financial gain and may soon be able to intervene in the most private of family affairs.

Besides, please don’t paint me as implying something I never did - not caring about these children. It cheapens the debate when you resort to this kind of deception.

>>And why haven’t you considered adopton?

Because I am happy producing children of my own as is my wife. As I stated, I encouraged my friend to adopt as I would encourage anyone whose lives may benefit from it. My wife had two miscarriages and there was a time when we kept it on the table, but now we have a wonderful little girl of our own and I refuse to stand by while others advocate hijacking her from me based on other peoples negative situations.

Why is it any less important for me to support my friends in considering adoption, ‘shoving it off’ as you call it? I’m sorry, but just because I, or Stephanie, haven’t adopted children, doesn’t mean that you can demand we not have a valid opinion on family, abortion or adoption.

Thanks Linda. I will always be happy to disagree with you. ;o)

Linda H.,

For background, this was posted on the “Delegated Authority” thread towards the end, abortion was the topic and in that case I was arguing against it as practiced currently.

tony,

“I prefer to focus on ridding the world of abortion through prevention.”

I agree. The first step in doing that is stop advertising abortion as a “good” solution, which PP does through their politics and their literature. While I abhor abortion as a practice, I’m not entirely against it from a political perspective. That simply isn’t practical in today’s society. However, I am against PP and NARAL. I’m against abortion on mass, abortion on demand. We shouldn’t be making it easy for women to choose abortion.

“I am a male, and therefore I am viewing this from the sidelines”

I’m sorry, but that’s feminist bullsh**!

It takes two people to make a baby, a woman & a man.

While fathers don’t always have any parental rights in this country, they should. Call it a “pursuit of happiness” thing. Unless a man (or a woman, for that matter) is neglectful or abusive he should have parental rights in regards to his child!

IMO, a woman should not be able to abort a baby without consulting the father, using pre-natal paternity tests if necessary. If the father does not approve the abortion it should not happen! Yes, the woman has to go through the pregnancy which is inconvenient, however she made the choices that led to the pregnancy and now she should have to deal with the consequences of her own choices. If a father wants custody of his unborn child, a woman should have to carry the baby to term (assuming all goes well) so that the father can have his child, unless she can prove the father is abusive or neglectful. Of course, in an instance of rape or incest, the father is abusive and therefore has lost all rights to the child at the time of conception.

It used to be the law in this country that men were entitled sole custody of their child, unless they were willing to share. Now, it’s pretty much the other way around. Neither extreme is appropriate. Parents of both sexes should share the child (as long as both are willing and able and/or pay child support if they are not), just like they shared in the child’s conception.

My point, in relevance to here, is this:

1) In many states what the father wants is rarely even considered. Some women have the “courtesy” to ask the father his opinion, but it is all too few. If we can force a father to pay for a child he didn’t want on the mother’s account, we should be able to force a woman to have a baby on the father’s account.

2) Too many fathers take too little responsibility, and as a nation and a society we do too little to rectify that. While it is illegal (at least in most states) not to pay court-ordered child support, enforcement sucks. (And, as my husband pays child support, sometimes it sucks the other way around when we have the child and are still paying child support.) And that’s assuming the mother is even willing to give the father’s name. As a society, we often dismiss the fact that there are these fathers who don’t pay for their kids, don’t see their kids, don’t raise their kids…and somehow it’s okay, because they’re only “dads.” Compare that to this thread that is full of fathers up in arms about the welfare of their children (Bravo to all of you!), and it is easy to see how important fathers are to children.

So, as a society and nation, if we did better at respecting the rights of fathers and did more to enforce the responsibilities of fathers, we would be much better off in a lot of areas, including less teenage pregnancies.

OTTO,

I didn’t mean to sound like I was making a demand, simply that unless more people adopt (and yes I have) the abortion issue will not be solved. And unless kids KNOW about sex education, including the use of contraception, we will continue to see this problem.

As I highlighted, some believe that children should be raised shielded from the notion that choices and actions have consequences, and that is very dangerous.

We totlly agree there - I just feel strongly that children need to learn the consiquences of their actions BEFORE there is a pregnanacy. And how to AVOID it.

And I stand by what I said about about caring for these kids. If you didn’t care, you would not have been on this site.

My e