Republicans & Conservatives: Archives

Matt,

FYI, the link you’ve provided doesn’t work.

As per your statements, middle class parents are more able to choose to move to a better school location. They can choose to “afford” private school better than lower income families, by giving up some of their luxuries. They can also choose to home-school, and there are many choices within that vast realm that make it fairly easy. Being middle class, they even tend to have a better ability to buy the materials to home-school than the poor. I do not see how exactly the middle class is so bereft of choices.

The middle class fights over neighborhoods with the best schools, but as the neighborhoods get more crowded, school district lines are redrawn to match the enrollment capacity of schools. New schools get built whose quality is hardly assured. The fact is that most Americans have their school decisions made for by a mere accident of their residence.

I can attest to that. When I was in preschool there was one public elementary school that my parents and I thought I would enroll in, this one was the best performing in the whole district on standardized tests; we even visited it on a weekend so I’d be familliar with it when I would be in kindergarden. Because of an increase in the school-aged population in the area a new school was built and I went to that one, it ended up becoming the worst in the whole school district. Then in third grade another school was built on the other side of town; all the districts were shifted to accommodate this school. I ended up in the second-best school in the district that had been around before any of the other schools were.

For some reason, my name is not showing on my comment above.

Matt, there is a huge downside to school choices presented today. That downside is the very same one which hit the computer wave back in the 80’s and 90’s. Differing standards which precluded different systems from understanding data exchange. In other words, different languages. The more school choice we have, the more citizens in the next generation will be arguing. Perfect example: Students from one school will argue the Bible is a source of science via Intelligent Design, while a student from another school argues unverifiable evidence is not science at all.

That’s on the macro level. Then too, school choice means what a student knows upon graduation from one school may very dramatically, (and does) with a student from another school. Yet both can claim to be a high school graduate.

School choice is and will continue to exacerbate these breakdowns in equivalence of education among America’s students. Schools also used to serve as socializing institutions where young people were taught what it was to be an informed, involved, and capable citizen of their nation and society. School choice has a huge impact (as many other factors do) on differing socialization standards. Consider the socialization outcomes of inner city LA Barrio schools compared with those of a rural Wisconsin school district.

What folks have to come to grip with is the following 3 facts.

1) Choice is no panacea for solving educational problems. It can create as many problems as it solves.

2) Every nation needs a national educational standard that the majority of its population agrees to support. And these standards need to be enforceable and the resources required to meet those standards must be made available, on a school by school, district by district and state by state basis. Nothing short of the future of the nation depends upon this.

3) Parents should have choice. But those choices should be elective, above and beyond the national standards which should be guaranteed in any school public or private if government licensing is required. For those parents who choose to home-school either through parental teaching or hiring professional homeschool teachers, fine, that is their right. But for their children to receive certification for graduation to the next educational level or into the workplace, they must demonstrate educational proficiency equal to the national standards, and at their own cost.

A nation with a common core of beliefs and allegiances and ability to communicate with each other depends very directly on a core common education enjoyed by all.

Stephanie,

I think you missed the point.

Yes, there are things the middle-class can give up. But, why should they?

The middle class contributes to the educational system, far more than the poor. Why should they give up even more to “obtain” choice?

By the way, my family has given things up, like owning a single-family home and taking vacations (1 in the last 10 years). We gave these things up so my wife could stay home to raise our kids rather than having some daycare provider raise them. What else should I give up in order to get them into a private school? A meal a day, electricity, gas, my car, what?

David,

That’s on the macro level. Then too, school choice means what a student knows upon graduation from one school may very dramatically, (and does) with a student from another school. Yet both can claim to be a high school graduate.

This already exist under our current setup. A student from one school district may know more than one from another, and both be a high school graduate. This is even possible in the same high school.

Choice makes very little difference in the grand scheme of education-the problem is that there is little to no incentive to provide quality education by the institution of school districts. Parent involvement in their children’s education is also a huge issue. Home School is rarely a good answer because of the lack of qualifications many parents have in providing good education and educational choices plus a lack of benchmark for what’s being taught. There are answers, but they won’t be easy and they of course won’t be cheap.. TAX ON…

Choice. This is brought up for the sake of vouchers, which are brought for the sake of subsidizing sectarian and partisan private schools with tax dollars.

Let taxes fund public schools, private money fund private schools, and people pay for their own homeschooling, if they can afford it.

If you can’t afford those last two options? Put your kid through public school. It’s not out of pocket, it’s there, and properly managed it’s served the vast majority of American students pretty damn well.

Public education dollars should be going to public education. If we’re all paying for it, it shouldn’t simply be a gimmee to a select few malcontents.

Bah humbug - this has nothing to do with funding and everything to do with the fact that I am funding education through my tax dollars whether federal, state or local and I demand that my dollars be spent to educate my children in a manner that will allow them to be functionally literate when they graduate. Public school is a reality for many parents, however, when you don’t get your money’s worth in the private sector you go elsewhere-why should that not be an option for parents trying to form the next generation to be citizens of this country?

Empowering parents to make the correct choices for their children is what it’s all about. Parents are charged with the care and guidance of their children. It is not the governments job to usurp authority and interfere with parents in doing their jobs in any way, shape or form. The government does not know the best way to raise my child and it never will.

David,

“That’s on the macro level. Then too, school choice means what a student knows upon graduation from one school may very dramatically, (and does) with a student from another school. Yet both can claim to be a high school graduate.”

How is this any different than what we have? I’ve attended many different schools, in several different states. To call all those equal is ridiculous. To say that being at the top of my class in one school prepared me properly for the next is false. Different schools teach different things at different levels all the time.

“Consider the socialization outcomes of inner city LA Barrio schools compared with those of a rural Wisconsin school district.”

How does school choice exacerbate that? Mixing things up by demanding quality and performance, instead of relying strictly on where you live would help that! Long bus rides, now that’s a real problem.

“they must demonstrate educational proficiency equal to the national standards”

They do. Gee, and private schools are even required to teach about evolution.

“A nation with a common core of beliefs and allegiances and ability to communicate with each other depends very directly on a core common education enjoyed by all.”

We’re a melting pot, remember. We aren’t required or even recommended to have a common core of beliefs, allegiances or even be able to communicate. Thus, our freedoms.

Michael,

And you missed my point. I don’t see how the middle class is so bereft of choices. I’ve known plenty of middle class families that willingly make the sacrifices to give their children better educations, in various formats. That’s a choice they make and a choice they’re willing to pay for. I do not support the voucher program, because it is way too selective as it is run, at least here in Wisconsin. But, the idea that middle-class families don’t have choice? That doesn’t fit with what I know.

“But, why should they?”

Because they care about their child’s education. If they care enough they will do what is necessary. I hold that standard to poor families as well. If you’re willing to choose a better education for your child only if it convenient to you then it really isn’t all that important to you and the tax payers shouldn’t have to foot the bill.

“The middle class contributes to the educational system, far more than the poor. Why should they give up even more to “obtain” choice?”

A homeowner (which I am) contributes far more than a non-homeowner, does that mean your children aren’t entitled to a good education, or that my children are entitled to a better one? No, so don’t use that argument. They don’t have to obtain choice, they already have it. You just don’t like the choices that are available.

“We gave these things up so my wife could stay home to raise our kids rather than having some daycare provider raise them. What else should I give up in order to get them into a private school?”

HOMESCHOOL!!! It doesn’t have to be very expensive at all. It just takes time. As a poor family (mainly because I’m a stay-at-home mother of four), we’ve considered homeschooling and found it had much to recommend itself. The only reason we don’t is because my children have special needs that require expertise that I lack (because of this they aren’t even eligible for local private schools), that people at the public school in my community have, that I cannot learn quickly enough for it to be practical. My kids need experts to teach them because they don’t learn in a “normal” way, if not for that I would homeschool my children.

If you’re interested in finding out the facts about homeschooling, which is only one of the choices available to you, I can direct you to some good sites for more information.

Stephen,

“Public education dollars should be going to public education. If we’re all paying for it, it shouldn’t simply be a gimmee to a select few malcontents.”

I agree completely, though probably for different reasons.

Discerner & Angela,

You fund public school whether you have a child or not. That’s not the point. Parents have the power to determine the education their child receives, they just have to use it! Demanding your money back does no good. People who never have kids still have to pay for public schools!!! The fact that the funds comes out of your taxes doesn’t mean you have to use the services. Choose something else, there are plenty of options. Just don’t expect the rest of us to make it easy for you. If you expect raising kids right to be easy, then you are in for a rude awakening.

Stephanie,

“Parents have the power to determine the education their child receives, they just have to use it!”

I would agree with your point except I would say that they just have to pay for it.

For all the rest of you,
A private school education is not a right. A public school education is. I am totally against vouchers because we can’t give them to everybody, and who decides which child gets one?
Voucher programs take money away from those schools that need the money the most.

BTW, I went to a private school for grades 1-10, my parents worked two jobs to send 4 kids through Catholic school.
If you want to send your children to a private school, fine.
Just don’t expect me to pay for it.

Rocky,

It’s more than just paying for it, it’s about taking responsibility. Even getting involved in the public school process would help kids get a better education. Parent involvement is a much bigger problem involving “bad schools” than is funding, with some few exceptions that really do need more money. Parental involvement, from as early age as possible, is what teaches children that learning is a priority, that it’s important to their parents and should be important to them. Without taking responsibility, more money, either for private schools or public schools, does no good.

Matt,

I hadn’t read you’re whole article before my comment above.

“School management reform must be couple with an absolute right of the parents to choose the right school for their child, regardless of whether that school is public or private, secular or parochial.”

Absolute Right?
Are you out of your mind?
Please show me that in the Constitution, or the Magna Carta, or where ever.

I have to tell you, I haven’t laughed this hard in years.

Stephanie,

“Without taking responsibility, more money, either for private schools or public schools, does no good.”

Truer words were never spoken.

No offence you guys, but the failure isn’t with the public schools. The failure is with you parents.
You have, for the most part, shirked your responsibility to your children and now you want to send your kids to private schools because you think that your children will get a better education.
The same children that succeed in public schools will succeed in private schools. Those that are having problems in public schools, will still have problems, because their parents don’t give a rat’s ass about their education.
Children, whose parents are involved with their education, will succeed, regardless which school they go to.

Rocky,

“Absolute Right?”

Well, as far as that goes, public schooling wasn’t even a right in the Constitution and the Magna Carta wasn’t us.

“Children, whose parents are involved with their education, will succeed, regardless which school they go to.”

I agree completely.

Everybody else,

If you want your child to attend a different school venue, so you can control what goes into your child’s mind that’s your dollar to spend. Better yet…TALK TO YOUR CHILDREN!!! Ask them what they’ve learned, tell them what you think about that, ask them what they think about that…but, wait. No, sorry. That might actually start up a conversation and we couldn’t have that, now could we?

School choice is merely a convenience, with some few exceptions where there are schools that really need to straighten out.

Stephanie,

“Ask them what they’ve learned, tell them what you think about that, ask them what they think about that…but, wait. No, sorry. That might actually start up a conversation and we couldn’t have that, now could we?”

While you’re at it ask them if they have any home work and have they done it.
If your son or daughter has a school project, get involved. You don’t have to do it for them, but doesn’t hurt to help.
When was the last PTA meeting you went to?

Even though I am a high school drop out I got a great education because my parents gave a damn, and they were involved.

Rocky,

PTA isn’t what it used to be, at least not around here. Now it’s sales functions, field trips and parties…money, Money, MONEY!!! I don’t participate there much, but I do meet regularly with my children’s teachers. Partly because they have to, IDEA and all, but I meet with them beyond those guidelines. I talk to them before and after class whenever possible and pick my kids up in person so I can do exactly that.

I know the majority of the adults that have at least weekly contact with my children on first name basis (the major exceptions being the art teacher and the lunch staff), as well as many of those who only have periodic contact with my children. I’m very involved, I’m kind, courteous, caring and supportive of my children and their teachers and I get great results. I KNOW what’s going on in their classrooms and their studies. I know what they’re being taught. I know how well they’re learning it. And I ASK WHAT I CAN DO TO HELP AND THEN DO IT!

Despite all the educational disadvantages my children have, they are learning better then anyone (but my husband and I) first expected them to. My autistic son, who we were told should be institutionalized because he would never be able to function on a “normal” level, is mainstreamed into first grade. He still needs extra help, but because of social delays not academic ones.

Stephanie said: “We aren’t required or even recommended to have a common core of beliefs, allegiances or even be able to communicate. Thus, our freedoms.”

More like, ‘Thus our increasing anarchy.’ Or growing tower of Babyl. Look at the utter breakdown in communication that takes place here on WB on a daily basis by numerous folks. And this site is one of the most civil and well argued I have found for discussion and debate of current events.

Rocky, I have to agree with you that it’s laughable to say we should enshine the “absolute right of the parents to choose the right school for their child, regardless of whether that school is public or private, secular or parochial.”

It’s pretty wacky to see something like that on this side of the page. I also agree with David that we should have an enforceable educational standard - especially in the three R’s.

The fact is that most Americans have their school decisions made for by a mere accident of their residence.

This is interesting. We bought a house we just barely couldn’t afford because it was in a good school district. The interesting thing about portable public school vouchers is that you can live in a less expensive neighborhood, but still send your kid to a good public school (assuming you can get your kid in ahead of 50,000 other kids who also want to go there).

BTW, excellent article, Matt. I’d love to see more such well thought out and researched posts over here. Even if I don’t totally agree, at least you’re presenting something tangible, rather than just fluffy opinions.

As a public educator in what “No Child Left Behind” deems a failing school, I find this argument of vouchers very interesting. I can tell you first hand that the majority of the problems our children face in these schools falls on the parents. The children move from school to school at an alarming rate. Schools do not all teach the same material on the same day and these children fall behind. You also must take into account what factors are determining these schools as failing. One subgroup of the student population can cause the entire school to receive a failing grade. There are many subgroups and many circumstances for the failing scores. So before we go running off to grab our vouchers it helps to know what standards our schools have failed. And, Rocky, while I agree with you about parents and their needed accountability, I also recognize that many parents are not involved for reasons out of their control (mainly their jobs). I have single parents who work 2 or more jobs that have a hard time keeping up with their children. That doesn’t mean the responsibility does not fall on them, but it also doesn’t mean that they don’t care. But, you are very right in your assertion that the way kids perform in school is in direct correlation to their homelife. Vouchers aren’t the answer. We have to take a hard look at society and solve things without the quickfix of vouchers. Otherwise, in a few years we’ll be creating some new form of vouchers to get our kids out of some other failing school.

Stephanie,

We do homeschool both of our children. True, that is a choice we have made.

However, I am still required to pay for a public education that failed both of my children.

Yes, they both started out in the public school system. To date, my son still has difficulty reading because of a decision “the experts” made. We pulled him out in the 4th grade. My daughter was not being challenged enough, she’s on the other end of the spectrum, and we moved her to a private school in 2nd grade. Private school eventually became too expensive, so we are now homeschooling her as well as my son.

Yes, we have made choices. But, we have had to pay the price. We have given up things that I would like my children to have, like a single-family home with a backyard they can play in or yearly vacations where they can see more of this great Country of ours.

All the while, I am forced to support a public school system that failed my children. That is the problem I have! When I purchase a product and it fails, I can take it back and get a refund. With the public school system, not only do I not get a refund, but I have to keep paying!

Forget the refund.

Just let me stop paying!

Michael, and if you are laid off, or if one of your children’s parents should die or be laid up in a hospital preventing homeschooling, your children will have the public schools to return to, no extra charge. Think of it as an insurance policy that insures your children of the right to attend school anyplace in the United States should your more affluent educational choices evaporate due to misfortune.

Rather than criticize the public schools, why not get involved. Take the time spent homeschooling and run for School Board member or director, or join the PTA and exert influence on bettering the school for your child. And you have always had the option to move to a better school system - though I will hasten to add, every public school in America should at the very least, be a very good school.

But there is an old saying, you can’t please everyone. It is true of commercial products, associates, workplaces, so why should it not be true of schools as well. The nation as a whole and the vast majority of students, and the future of our nation are best served by a public school system. And a public school system cannot exist unless the public supports it.

I can think of no more patriotic act in America than someone who selflessly works or supports making our nation’s public educational system the best it can be. Your mileage may vary.

Kris C, you make an extremely cogent argument. What I see happening is a domino effect. The more vouchers proliferate, the more funding is lost to public schools, the more funding lost to public schools, the more will fail. Ad infinitum, leading to private education for most if not all students, and of vastly disparate levels of quality, far worse than today in public schools. Afterall, private schools are not subject to the same public scrutiny as public schools.

This nation is heading down the road of having to make a choice between a federalized educational system insuring minimum standards for all, or privatized education leading to great schools for the wealthy and mediocre education for the majority of the rest of the nation, as dollars will dictate quality in education as it does in cars, housing, and home appliances.

What is happening here is nothing less than free enterprise capitalism applied to education of our nations youth spawning Charter schools and voucher methods of diverting funds from public education to privatized education, vs, a socialized school system funded the public funds. This is at the heart of the educational issue, in my assessment.

David,

No matter how much you may want people to think just like you do, it’s never going to happen. There’s never going to be that status quo that you seem to want. I, for one, am quite grateful of that. I’m quite grateful that you’re not going to be able to “program” my kids. You’re way is not the way to independent thought, quite the contrary.

“The more vouchers proliferate, the more funding is lost to public schools, the more funding lost to public schools, the more will fail.”

While I agree with you that public school funds should stay with the public schools, I still disagree with where this debate has led us before. While I realize it is difficult for you to see due to your familial situation, more money doesn’t equal better schools. A good teacher (and by good I mean well-educated and caring, not well-educated and well-paid) can compensate for insufficient funding for materials as well as other money problems, not to mention being okay with not making the big corporate bucks. Giving extra money to a good school can make it great, but won’t necessarily solve anything.

Michael Burns,

You, and every other tax payers, don’t pay for public schools strictly for your children’s benefit, you pay so all children in this country have the choice to attend public schools. You do not get out of that, just because you choose something else for them. Like I said, people who never have children still have to pay for public schools. It’s not an option, it’s a responsibility.

people who never have children still have to pay for public schools. It’s not an option, it’s a responsibility.

We’re still in the red column right? Isn’t that evil socialist talk?

Taylor,

I live in Phoenix, where we have a large senior population. Every year the folks in Sun City get up in arms about having to pay for the public schools in their area.
Guys, it’s called doing your fair share for the good of us all. Call it what you will, we are better off with the system we have than we would be with none at all.
We could, I suppose go back to the 19th century, where only the rich got a real education.

I belive that property taxes are the only tax that we pay equitably. I haven’t been able to find any loopholes in that law.
Be appreciative that you child is getting an education at all.
Anarchy cannot be an option here.

Taylor,

“Isn’t that evil socialist talk?”

Call it what you will, it’s still the fact of life in America.

Rocky,

Do children in your area get better educations? Since there’s probably more people to pay, and less kids to teach (because of population demographics), one would assume your schools would have more money, and thus better educations (as per some people’s logic). So, is it true?

Stephanie,

“Do children in your area get better educations?”

I would say that we here in Arizona are average to below average.
We have had a huge influx of “guests” from south of the border in the last few years and it has put quite a strain on all public services in the Phoenix area.
You also have to remember that Phoenix has been one of the fastest growing Metro areas in the country. That also has put a strain on the school systems.

Stephanie

Thats exactly my point. I dont mind funding public education however, I do mind that I have no say in the quality of public education my child receives. You say I have choices and that I have the power to make the changes-I beg to differ-I stay home and raise my children that means public education-I work full time if I choose private (which quite frankly is not any better where I am) and someone else raises my kids. I’m paying tuition - through taxes - I should have a say when and where my child goes. If public education fails then I should have the right to take my money (taxes) and my children elsewhere. I also reject your argument regarding parent involvement-I am at my childs school every day and serve in any way I can-but the bottom line is that the education establishement has tied parents hands and they have no control.

Rocky

We have the same strains in Illinois districts-I feel your pain but that however is a whole different article and debate.

Rocky,

Ah, got to love those guests. I bet there’s been an out-cry of “English as a second language” courses that take funds away from “English as a first language” courses, too.

“You also have to remember…” I can’t remember what I didn’t know.

If it helps any, though, I was expecting something like this for an answer. Just imagine how bad things would be if all those seniors (and anyone else not directly using the services) weren’t taxed for the benefit of the kids.

Angela,

“the education establishement has tied parents hands and they have no control.”

The education system answers to the people through the government, get involved there. This isn’t really that hard.

And, by getting involved, I mean be prepared to put pressure on people. Be prepared to give your child “extra” homework. Be prepared to take a stand. Just being there isn’t enough. And I didn’t say it was.

Angela,

BTW, how many times do I need to say the money isn’t for your child, it’s for the school system before you understand that your taxes and your child are irrelevant to each other. That’s a law that’s going to be damn hard for you to change. Plenty of people have been trying for years with no success.

Stephanie,

“The education system answers to the people through the government, get involved there. This isn’t really that hard.”

There is a better answer than that.

Get involved through your local school board. In some counties they are elected officials, in others they are appointed.
You have to put pressure where the pressure will do the most good.

Rocky,

Um…yeah…well, I always thought the “local school board” was part of the government. Each time you get thwarted, you move up to the next rung. That’s the nature of our bureaucracy. If you start at the teacher, you move to the principal, if the principal can’t/won’t help, you move to the superintendent, if s/he can’t/won’t help you move to the school board, ect. On and on until you get 1) heard & 2) results.

Speaking of school systems, why isn’t this stuff taught?

Matt.
I’ll agree with you that the education systems in America is in need of a mojor overhual in what we teach as well as how we teach our children to learn. However, until we can design and build an educarional system where each family can chose the “Super Teacher” for each subject for each child and pay for it than society will have to seattle for second best.

And while I may agree with most parents about the need to teach with pen and paper from grades 1-6. Do you realize that with interactive teaching programs like the one offered at colleges on line that America can build an education system that allows our children to be taught by Experts in that field. Thus lowering the need for school teachers except for one on one consuling in our public system.

While I’ve not completely thaught through the exact process with the access to the Interenet and the reinforcement that Knowledge and Wisdom is the real power of a person maybe our children would learn why they need to know how life works. One thing is for sure, the need to teach every human how to play with making money through Personal Savings. Imagine if every teenager knew how to make a hundred dolars a day just by investing their allowance?

Henry,

Kids learn a lot more in schools then just the subjects that are taught. They also get a lot more out of it then just the “lessons learned.” Besides, there would have to be hefty regulation to make sure the kids were learning, instead of cheating.

Stephanie,
I understand that the classroom is important for learning social skills; however, why should Jane be held back from learning at her pace because Jack is to busy playing the clown? No system is every going to be perfect if it is made by Man; nevertheless, is it not the wish of every parent to have their children taught by the very best? The buildings and Teachers are not the problem with the system in most cases. It is the fact that for each teacher we employ 5 adminstrators with 5 different ways of doing things over them.

Henry,

“It is the fact that for each teacher we employ 5 adminstrators with 5 different ways of doing things over them.”

I agree completely with that. Another problem is student-teacher ratio, but computerizing and long-distance learning isn’t going to solve that, it only exacerbates it.

Stephanie,
I not sure that is the exact number or average, but I know it is close. And like the idea of having students change classes has taking several years to employ to the grade schools the proper interactive program with interactive respone team required to answer several thousand questions at once by each student can be done better than one teacher trying to answer thirty seperate questions and keeping on message of the lesson.

Like I said I haven’t completely took it out step by step, but while most Humans only can remember exactly what a few Teachers have said the secret to a good education is to know enough Cardinally that you can look it up when you need the information. Because that is where the true power of Knowledge and Wisdom begins. If you don’t know you are considered Ignorant; however, know and do it wrong and society calls it stupid. Thats the problem the Youth of the 60’s have never got over.

My husband is taking a long-distance learning course, and it doesn’t work out nearly as smoothly as they claimed. Whenever he’s had a question, it’s taken him weeks to get a response. And, he hasn’t kept up with what he should do, because there’s not a whole lot of external pressure to do his homework. I don’t think teaching the majority of kids this way is practical or wise. Just because we could doesn’t mean we should. Many parents don’t oversee their kids enough as it is, this would put more of a burden on parents who are seem completely unwilling or unable to take care of the responsibilities they have. Besides, not everyone has a computer in their home.

Henry,

“Like I said I haven’t completely took it out step by step, but while most Humans only can remember exactly what a few Teachers have said the secret to a good education is to know enough Cardinally that you can look it up when you need the information. Because that is where the true power of Knowledge and Wisdom begins. If you don’t know you are considered Ignorant; however, know and do it wrong and society calls it stupid. Thats the problem the Youth of the 60’s have never got over.”

I am one of those “Youths of the 60’s”, and I don’t have a freaking clue what your point is.

“If you don’t know you are considered Ignorant;”

I think that is because that is what the definition of ignorant is.

“however, know and do it wrong and society calls it stupid.”

And that would be because that IS the definition of stupid.

In high school in the sixties, for example we were required to actually work out the math equations on paper because:

1]I showed that you actually understood the concept of the equation.

and
2]There were no such things as calculators. There were adding machines, and I have to mention that they didn’t do complex math formulas, and they plugged into the wall and were as big as your desk. Not to mention that they were damned expensive.

Oh, BTW, we actually had to make use of the library because that was where the information was.

To go back to my #1 point.
Do we teach this way now?

To go back to my #2 point.
Are we spoiling our children because the calculator and the computer, in reality, do the work for you.
Gee, now only poor people have to go to the library to study.

Henry,

I forgot that the only “designer” clothes were Levis and Wranglers, and I could wear neither because I had to wear a uniform in grade school and slacks and a collared shirt in high school.
No t-shirts no athletic shoes.

Stephanie,
I understand that many people like your husband have questions that take to long to be answered and that is why I said an interactive course. If the college or other school would have a Reference Desk like your local libary who is dedicated to answering your question at the time you call than a person could learn at the speed of light. As far as your husband or your children staying on course, break out The Whip for is it the parents who must ensure that the student learns and the role of a teacher to teach.

By the way, the proper teaching program would print out a daily score card to track you child’s progress. Again, not perfect but what is? The neat thing about Life and being an American is you only have to make it right, not perfect.

Besides, The 3 R’s are important and should be held as The Cornerstone of Knowledge and True Freedom. Not because you need to know how to write a proper sentence, but it is the very begining of your Unalienable Rights as a Human and Citizen as an American. The more you know to be Right and True by Cardinal Knowledge (Self-Thought) the more Freedom you are allowed. As a mother, have you ever yelled at your kids (not your husband) for being right?

Rocky,
As one of The Youth of the 60’s, how do tell the difference between what you Know-to-Be Right and that what you Think-to-Be Right? Cardinal Knowledge for once spoken even a child can tell a difference between a Lie and the Turth.

Yes, as a Child of the 70’s I remember well the debate over using calculators in school and the reasons given for writing the problem all the way out on paper so that others can see that you have mastered the skill. However, being one of those students who could do simple Algebra in my head, instead of encouraging me to learn by taking me to a higher level, my teacher threatened to flunk me and if I remember right dropped me a grade because I would not conform to his wishes.

As far as subject and content, the one thing I like to ask people (especially Learned)is how many sides are there to a cube? Books and Teachers make a child say 6; however, Pure reason and logic tells us that in order for that cube to exist in Reality that it must have 12 (6 sides on the outside and 6 sides on the inside). A small difference in thought that has a huge impact on one’s ability to learn what is right and true in the Real World.

As far as an interactive Public Education System goes, the easiest way to explain it today is how a person can use the local libary reference desk to obtain information on almost any subject. However, even the smartest person in the world can not find jack unless they know of it or at the very least can concieve that it can be a part of Reality.

As far as your point goes, yes, very much so. While reasons are deep for such actions, many students today are taught that the Civil War was fought over Slavery. Although a reason, the Turth is that the first shot was over South Carolina’s Right to secceed (sp) from the union. The other was an economic issue and how “Profits” could be made.

Knowledge is said to be a double edge sword; however, that statement hides the fact that every sword has a broadside and untill we start teaching from that side opinions will always belong to the extremeist of the world, not the Common Human.

Rocky,

You crack me up! :-)

At least I’m not the only one who had no idea what the 60’s comment was about, but that just goes to show I’m ignorant, not stupid, right?

Henry,

“As far as your husband or your children staying on course, break out The Whip for is it the parents who must ensure that the student learns and the role of a teacher to teach.”

And my point is that many parents DON’T DO THAT NOW, so how the hell are we going to expect them to do it when MORE is expected of them?

Besides, my husband is an adult and is entitled to make his own choices. Breaking out the whip in regards to my husband is disrespecting the fact that marriage is an equal relationship (or should be, IMO) and not equivalent to the unequal parent-child relationship.

“The 3 R’s are important and should be held as The Cornerstone of Knowledge and True Freedom.”

It really bugs me when people do that. The “3 R’s” only actually have one R, along with an A and a W. So, calling a misnomer the Cornerstone of anything seems so…well, ignorant.

“As a mother, have you ever yelled at your kids (not your husband) for being right?”

Either I’m really misunderstanding you, or… Okay, have I yelled at my kids because they were right and I was wrong? Is that what you’re asking me? Because, if is, the answers no. When that is the case (only occasionally, but it does happen) I either 1) put out my hand to be slapped (lightly), or 2) apologize and correct myself, or 3) say something like, “Oh, fine! Have it your way!” and start a tickle-fest. Why would you yell at your kids for being right?

Stephanie,
You did get my point. Although no one can be absolutely right absolutely 100% of the time, for any person to say or preech that it is ok to grow around being wrong all the time would bring on the Warth (sp) of every Grandma & Mother on Earth.

As far as parents being to busy today, that is the due to the Beast of Nature “I the Corporation” that was agreed by All Nations in the 70’s to follow using Societal Law. Change the Beast of Nature to “We the Consumers” and watch what happens to Life. Like I said, the Right Knowledge applied Rightfully and Truely is the one that wins the Game of Life.

P.S. I used the word 3 R’s cause it is easier to type out since I use the hunt and peck method of typing.

Henry,

Okay, I have no idea what you mean by “Beast of Nature.” Why don’t you stop trying to be poetic and just say it?

Stephanie,
Thwe Beast of Mature refers to the Laws of Nature and was debated very heavily in the Early 70’s at which time The Beast of Nature “I the Corporation was chosen to represent the “Force” which drives and rules Society. It is your Constitutional Right as a Layman (One not learned in Law or Criminal Justice) to use this Cardinal Knowledge to be governed by under The Federal Common Sense Law of 1830/40. That is why learning in America is so important to your unalienable Rights as a Citizen.

Stephanie

I believe we’ll have to agree to disagree in this education funding conversation. As for getting involved on a gov’t level - I have and I am - unfortunantly I am one of very few who will. But thanks for the lecture anyway

Henry,

“Thwe Beast of Mature refers to the Laws of Nature and was debated very heavily in the Early 70’s at which time The Beast of Nature “I the Corporation was chosen to represent the “Force” which drives and rules Society. It is your Constitutional Right as a Layman (One not learned in Law or Criminal Justice) to use this Cardinal Knowledge to be governed by under The Federal Common Sense Law of 1830/40. That is why learning in America is so important to your unalienable Rights as a Citizen.”

Again I would say, what are you trying to say?

You pick out some obscure law from the 1830s that no one except some law geek may have a clue about and use it to make your point?

If you intend to debate please use words and complete sentences that most of us “ignorant” folks can understand!
You may find this all very amusing. I personally find a bit annoying.

Stephanie,

Here is a quote that I found that actually explains what our friend Henry is talking about.

I found it here;

http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00000894.htm

“Keep me informed on how the investigation is going. Our Supreme Court ruled back in the 1830-40’s on a little known case law named “Federal Common Sense Law.” In simple words it allows us ordinary folks that have not taken any law courses or criminal justice classes the right to stand up in court and use the difference between Right & Wrong to debate the finer points of law in front of a judge.

Although I have only invoked it once in a court of law, I can tell you it is fun to take an Assistant DA to school. Therefore, any election law you can direct me to on this matter I’ll try to give you my spin on how we can use it to set the record straight.”

I hope that it helps you out, though I have no idea just what it has to do with vouchers and public schools.

Rocky,
Hello,if you do not know what the Beast of Nature “I the Corporation” is and how when applied to the Societal Laws of Our Nation works than I believe America has found out why our education system is failing our children. Because under The Federal Common Sense Law of 1830/40, “We the People” are required to make All Laws of The Land subject to be understood by the average citizen’s ability to apply Common Sense to The Laws of Nature (Does something exist in the Real World; The Intent of The Laws of The Land (Right & Wrong of The Subject); and The Natural Course of Human Events.

An obscure Law of a Law Greek it is not for every Judge is required to use the same Standard of Law as can be reasoned and loically presented by a Layman Citizen. Because that is your Civil and Constitutional Unalienable Right based soley on what you Know-to-Be Right by your Spoken Word. Need a better reason to learn?

Did you know that this same Cardinal Knowledge can be applied to The U.S. Code of Rules and Regulations? Although almost a lost art that many Lawyers do not know how to read, once someone has learned how to read The Intent, and design a local program that fits in The Peg-holes of The Guidelines most of the changes that need to be done only need the approve of the Local Leaders. The only qualification is that whe held up to The Light of Right & Truth your idea has to be found unalienable Right. Why, I can not say due to legal reason, but as an American I do not care because it works.

Yes, I do sometimes get over the head of people that I that with about this Cardinal Knowledge of The Laws of The Land; however, as a high school student that has been doing this ever since the 70’s I grow tried of people confussing Reason and Logic with one’s personal bliefs. Personally, I do not care about being unalienable Right in an absolute way; nevertheless, Our Government and Society must be held to that Standard of Excellence or risk falling from grace as Top Dog.

Not having read up on all the latest Rules and Regulations considering most are held by local communities or how a completely interactive educational system could be made to work. I do know for a fact that the technology exist that would put Mom & Dad in constent contact with their Children’s Teachers 24/7. E-mails and conferences is not even close to what is available. And although there is a real need to change the materail used to educate our Children, it should be directed toward helping them deal with the real world as your generation fought so hard to change. And teaching our Children how to be right by The Laws that we live by and change them when needed is a very important part of that process.

Making it possible for parents to get a hold of the teachers 24/7 is an extremely bad idea. The teachers would never get a chance to rest, and parents would constantly be complaining about the grade their kid got on the last assignment. (I know not all parents do this, but enough do for 24/7 contact to do more harm than good)

Henry,

I’m sorry, but between typos and your obscure rhetoric, I’m not at all sure what you are trying to debate. But…

If you’re saying that layman can fight in the courts on the basis of what is right versus what is wrong, then…

Well, there’s a big problem with that, because laymen don’t agree with what is right and what is wrong, and the courts don’t necessarily agree with whatever the consensus among laymen is. For example:

A layman may argue (and quite effectively) that homosexuality is wrong and thus should not be taught in our school systems. At the same time, a different layman may argue (and quite effectively) that prejudice is wrong, and therefore you cannot show prejudice by excluding homosexual propaganda from the school system. Now, IMO as a laymen, both positions are right to a certain extent. Homosexuality is morally questionable, it is inappropriate subject material for children, and thus does not belong in our school system. However, prejudice is wrong, and advocating prejudice in the school system is equally inappropriate subject material. In the end, what determines it for me is that, again IMO, propaganda in our school systems is wrong, no matter who’s doing it.

So, now you have three laymen’s positions on what’s right and wrong, no concensus and a lot of heated debate through out our country. However, the courts have been re-intrepreting our laws for centuries, and have already determined that propaganda in our school system is just fine, and homosexual propaganda is doubly so.

So, how does this obscure law of yours apply to life in contemporary America?

Rocky,

Thank you for your efforts, as always they are appreciated. I’m still a bit foggy as to what Henry is talking about, but despite the fact that his language seems a bit stuck in the powdered wig days, I’d really like not to be amongst the ignorant. Yeah, though, I agree with the annoying aspect. Archaic language form doesn’t help with communication, which (I thought) we were trying to accomplish.

Henry,

“Yes, I do sometimes get over the head of people that I that with about this Cardinal Knowledge of The Laws of The Land; however, as a high school student that has been doing this ever since the 70’s I grow tried of people confussing Reason and Logic with one’s personal bliefs.”

The problem is that a great many people cannot tell the difference.

I have to admit that I am probably too far removed from my Civics 101 class to remember whether or not the subject was covered. Also, not all of us followed high school with collage and a degree.
You would do well to try not to talk down to folks that didn’t follow the practice of law, especially since you apparently missed English 101.
Laymen or not, life often has other considerations for most folks.

Rocky,
Being unalienable Right is a learned process of Reason & Logic. Do Pigs fly? Can a Human walk on water? If you pick up a “Red Hot Coal” will you not get burned? Yes, people do love to debate almost everything. However, to say that you do not understand the difference between what you Think is Right and you Know to be Right by your own Spoken Word forfeits all other Civil and Constitutional Rights. That knowledge is endowed to you by your “Creator” and unless you are scared to be honest with yourself about a subject the Truth in your Voice is Self-Evident by Human Nature.

Henry,

“However, to say that you do not understand the difference between what you Think is Right and you Know to be Right by your own Spoken Word forfeits all other Civil and Constitutional Rights. That knowledge is endowed to you by your “Creator” and unless you are scared to be honest with yourself about a subject the Truth in your Voice is Self-Evident by Human Nature.”

Sorry pal, but can’t legislate away stupidity. If people don’t realize what their Constitutional rights are, does that mean that those rights don’t exist?

There is a difference between common sense and intellegence, we see it here all the time.

Henry,

“Do Pigs fly?”

Occasionally, air-travel isn’t the preferred way to transport livestock, but pigs have been known to fly in airplanes.

“Can a Human walk on water?”

Jesus did. So did Davinci. At least he designed something that would have allowed him to.

“If you pick up a “Red Hot Coal” will you not get burned?”

Presumably not, if you used tongs. Then, there’s firewalking.

Common sense is hardly common in America, and can always be proven wrong by facts, even if the statement is essentially true for most individuals. Common sense doesn’t equal to laws of physics or laws of man. Common sense are practical guidelines that help us all survive, and yet there are those who do not know it, understand it, or care to, who still live long enough to reproduce.

Rocky,
If you do not know through Common Sense was is right under The Law of The Land and the Lawyer you hire does not know that the Law is written that way than how are you to know they exist?

Point in fact; I had a customer one night get picked up for turning into his driveway right before a DWI Check Point and refused to blow into the machine. Having not entered the checkpoint and still being stopped by a police officer outside the area is he guilty? Common Sense and Intellegence says no; however, after talking to several Lawyers who could not reason and logically see the Legal problem he almost gave up. Until one day at work one of his bosses friends heard him talking about and refered him to a Lawyer who took the case and carried it into The Court where the Judge threw it out.

Yes he was in the right to do what he did; nevertheless, if left to the advice of 5 Lawyers he would of been found guilty. As it was, the Lawyer he hired got him to walk away with a warning of conduct.

True, the Law favors Right over Wrong, but if you and your Lawyer does not take it to that extreme than as far as The Courts of The Land are concerned unless introduced as evidence they do not. Even if the Judhe knows better. That is how our legal system works. Sorry, but if you cherish Freedom than this Knowledge and Wisdom really does need to be taught.

Henry,

Finally, I think I’m starting to get your point.

“Sorry, but if you cherish Freedom than this Knowledge and Wisdom really does need to be taught.”

Nobody that I’ve heard here is against teaching our children what you call “Knowledge and Wisdom.” Our children should be taught how to function in the society in which they live. Who is debating against this?

BTW, part of “functioning in the society in which they live” is learning to communicate. Communication takes not only writing or talking, but writing or talking in a way that can be understood. You are not practicing the art of communication very well right now, so if you’d like to communicate please drop your titles and talk about your concepts.

Henry,

“Sorry, but if you cherish Freedom than this Knowledge and Wisdom really does need to be taught.”

I don’t know where you get such ideas.

Neither one of these quantities can be taught.

Knowledge can be aquired through experience.
Wisdom is inherent, like common sense.

Rocky,
Knowledge can be taught by others, through observation, and if need be through the School of Hardknocks. Wisdom comes when Knowledge is applied in the real world. I do not have to know exactly how a kidney works;however, is not that kidney doing the same job as your oil filter on your car? That Common Knowledge and Wisdom requires a person to see a tree as more than branches, bark, and leafs. And while the Old expression “you can’t see the forest for the trees” comes to mind, can you say a tree even exist unless you see the sap, roots and other things going on in the tree to give it life? Frame of mind, maybe, but reality states that without those interworkings the tree itself does not exist.

And unless Americans want to go the way of the Caveman, it is time for our society to grow up and face the problems that are real with Pure Reason and Logic. Wishful thinking is not going to get us there.

Henry,

“”you can’t see the forest for the trees”“

Yes Henry, but knowledge without wisdom is like learning to fly with no feet.

Rocky,
And without Knowledge that is known to be right and ture regardless of ideology, wisdom does not mean a thing. Like your generation rebelled against your Elders so is the generations of today. However, unlike the Youth of the 60’s, todays Youth is willing to except reality on reality terms. It should be our duty to encourage a person to learn and gain knowledge and wisdom, not subvert them with preconcieved ideas of others who think that they are right.

Henry,

“Like your generation rebelled against your Elders so is the generations of today. However, unlike the Youth of the 60’s, todays Youth is willing to except reality on reality terms.”

That is such crap I am suprised you actually belive it.

We, my generation, was no different than today’s, with few exceptions. One is that we were neither as crude or as rude as today’s society seems to dictate.
There have been morons from all generations, and yours, the parents of today’s generation is no exception.
My generation, however misguided, at least was dedicated to a worthy cause. Can you say that of yours?

Time to wake and smell what you’re shoveling there, pal.

Henry,

Are you a Humanist?

Henry,

“And without Knowledge that is known to be right and ture regardless of ideology, wisdom does not mean a thing.”

I think you have that backwards.

Without the wisdom to use it correctly, knowledge is worthless.

Rocky,
Although I have the wisdom to destory the world, does not the right and true knowledge prevent me from doing so? Remember, like Life, Law is about who is unalienable Right regardless. Wisdom may allow me to do something, but with the right knowledge I’ll know why I’m not suppose to do something like that.

Henry,

I have the knowledge of the mechanics of a gun, I know how to point it, I know how to shoot it. Without the wisdom of when not to use it I am a criminal.

Rocky,
Hence, the Cardinal Knowledge of The Founding Fathers of America. While you and I may look at the same problem from to opposing views what is unalienable Right comes to light when all reason and logic meet at the same point in space and time. Is it wisdom or knowledge that allows a person to know when to pull the tigger is a debate that will go on forever. However, reasonable and logical people can come together at that point and reach the same conclusion. Self-defense is one thing, but to drop someone for no reason other than Freewill is wrong.

Thats the problem with our education system today. Although the local community does and should have control over their childrens education. A group of 12 citizens should not tell our teachers how and what to teach and discard any thought out of that realm. God forbid that our children know the Turth about what really takes place under our noses. And in politics of a society learning to reading between the lines is a most.

Henry,

“Although the local community does and should have control over their childrens education. A group of 12 citizens should not tell our teachers how and what to teach and discard any thought out of that realm.”

But you have to understand that we have either elected those folks (I can only assume that you are talking about a school board), or they were appointed, to do just that.

When I was in grade school (Catholic) in the fifties, there was a list of movies and books that hung in the doorway of the Church. I was always curious why some were under the heading of “condemned”. I knew what the word meant (I looked it up). It wasn’t until I got to high school (also Catholic) that we were told why that list was there.

The recent movement to ban books that are not politicaly correct is appaling to me. Books by Mark Twain, such as Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn, for instance, are about tolerence. Yes there is prejudice and bigotry, therein lies the lesson. Books by Henry Miller are for mature minds, not for children.

If we don’t know where we came from, we will never know where we are going to.

Rocky,
Sorry for the delay in response, but had to work.
Yes, I did mean School Boards and the Local Government that is suppose to overse them. I have never figured out how they could approve spending a few thousand dollars on a dinner for themselve, yet say in the same breath that the school did not have the funds so that Jack & Jill has the right stuff to learn.

However, I believe the greatest crime against our children I witnessed was in the mid 90’s. A TV Show aired on our PBS station about what the Youth of the 21st Century. Lucky enough to get through, I was shocked at the response I got from a Lady on the panel when I said that the Children need to have a comperhensive education program that showed them how to properly invest their money and use their credit.

Knowing at the time over 70% of Adults had problem balancing their checkbook and less than 95% of the population does not know enough to make informed decissions about the Market, I thought that it is a legitament concern. Nevertheless, her response was that parents should teach their children how to use money for the school does spend teaching the students how to budget their money (maybe six weeks. Yet, when I confronted her as a “Learned Parent” to explain to me when it is ok to buy a bank CD, her fable fell apart. Telling me that her Financial Advisor took care of that.

Well, after a few quick exchanges back and forth, the older Gentlemen on the panel spoke up and said that he knew what I was talking about. Although he had been invested in the market for longer than he cared to remember, it wasn’t until the last few years that he started to learn how to invest from his stock broker. Asked him if it made a difference to him with the knowledge and wisdom he had found, he proudly said “Yes, at least now if I lose money, I know it is my fault.” And the sad part of it all was when the Lady used the old expression “Why try, they’re not going to listen anyways.” And we wonder why our school system is so screwed up?

That reason and the “Total Incompetence” that has plagued our school system for longer than I have been alive is why our education system need a complete makeover. And that makeover should push every child to reach a Realm of Thinking in Reason & Logic that goes beyond what is written in some book.

Henry,

Balancing a check book is so far down the list of priorities.
Let’s make sure that little Johnny can read, write and do simple mathematics before he even needs a checkbook.

As for the school board, you and those in your district are responsible for them. If you don’t like their policies, vote them out. If they are appointed vote out those that appointed them, that’s your responsibility.

I think parents should be able to take their tax dollars and send their children to whatever school they want. Whether that be private, public, or religious based. Children deserve the best possible education. The government in return should require the parents to be just as involved as the students. It is a three teir relationship between the student, parent, and the teacher. When one of those 3 are not giving 100%, the system breaks down.

-Tim
Traditionalist

Rocky,
The problem begins not with the people in charge of governing the policies, but the policies themselve. Just as you and I learn at different levels and speed on different subjects so should our policies reflect what is known about Human Nature and the yearning of every child to be an adult.

Until “We the People” stand up and break the back of The Good Old Boy System which controls the School Boards than parents will have a problem getting what their children need. How many more years will go by before “We the People” figure out that a group of citizens want to keep a certian amount of the population dumb for their own benifit?